| 00:00.00 | Thunder_Child | such a misnomer |
| 00:00.02 | WobWork | to focus on both the HUD/foreground |
| 00:00.05 | Jamie_^ | I tried HUDs (again) today. I spent 2 hours setting it up. I couldn't see. I didn't like. |
| 00:00.08 | Thunder_Child | the whole UI is a HUD |
| 00:00.32 | WobWork | Thunder_Child: depends on if you shrink the frame view =) |
| 00:00.33 | Antiarc | Not really! If your screen is big enough, stuff at the edges of the screen definitely divert your attention from the action |
| 00:00.45 | WobWork | viewport |
| 00:01.01 | Antiarc | I run a 24" monitor, and my wife runs a 25.5". Believe me, you can put UI elements in places that cause you to lose sight of what's happening in the game :P |
| 00:01.19 | Thunder_Child | Antiarc, no i can not because i make sure not to |
| 00:01.29 | WobWork | no no |
| 00:01.33 | WobWork | "No I -do- not" |
| 00:01.38 | Thunder_Child | if you can not get your info at a glance then you didnt set up correctly |
| 00:01.41 | WobWork | you most certainly -can- |
| 00:01.49 | Bruners | i hate it when people whisper me during boss fights |
| 00:01.57 | Bruners | i just have to check |
| 00:02.09 | Jamie_^ | Thunder_Child: Agreed there. |
| 00:02.16 | WobWork | I could rewrite HeyFu |
| 00:02.21 | Jamie_^ | But you don't need a HUD to fix it. |
| 00:02.24 | WobWork | but I need a dewdrop replacement =P |
| 00:02.42 | Antiarc | Thunder_Child: My point is that it's possible to build a non-heads-up UI. |
| 00:02.54 | Antiarc | You said the whole UI is a hud. My point was that it isn't necessarily :P |
| 00:02.58 | *** join/#wowuidev Stew_a (n=Stewart@unafilliated/stewa/x-008753) |
| 00:03.36 | Thunder_Child | Antiarc, and my point is that it is a hud, simply set up badly |
| 00:03.55 | *** join/#wowuidev theorb (n=theorb@91.84.53.6) |
| 00:04.09 | Antiarc | This is a silly discussion. Maybe YOUR UI is a hud. Not everyone's is. |
| 00:04.12 | Thunder_Child | depending on how you define badly |
| 00:04.20 | WobWork | no, it's a semantics argument |
| 00:04.33 | Jamie_^ | Well, technically, it's not giving yuo a heads up if it's rubbish. |
| 00:04.34 | WobWork | TC is correct that -technically- it's a HUD |
| 00:04.37 | mitchnull | lua> t = {}; print(t[nil]) |
| 00:04.38 | lua_bot | mitchnull: nil |
| 00:04.47 | Shirik | how to know Lisp is a broken language: |
| 00:04.50 | WobWork | Antiarc is saying that his definition of a HUD requires that it not get in the way |
| 00:05.08 | Shirik | Professor starts trying to speak lisp to remind us of a function we defined earlier, and ends up giving up saying "whatever, you know what I'm saying" |
| 00:05.12 | Lopeppeppy | And I say "in the way" is subjective in the extreme |
| 00:05.16 | WobWork | and that any HUD that does distract that way is not considered by him to be a suitable HUD |
| 00:05.23 | Antiarc | Non-HUD elements are those that require you to divert your attention from "the action" since the while point of a HUD is that you don't have to look down away from your focus |
| 00:05.54 | WobWork | TC is speaking literally, Antiarc is speaking about usability |
| 00:06.13 | Antiarc | The dashboard on a car isn't a HUD, for example, even though it's in the approximate eye-space that you'd put middle-bottom elements of a WoW UI in |
| 00:07.12 | Arrowmaster | unless youve got one of those cars with the stupid middle dash guages |
| 00:07.36 | WobWork | and aren't -those- asking for trouble |
| 00:08.28 | Jamie_^ | Some cars have huds. |
| 00:08.40 | WobWork | a silly concept imo |
| 00:08.43 | DWSR | Not really. |
| 00:08.45 | DWSR | It's very smart. |
| 00:09.06 | Bruners | who looks at the dash anyway |
| 00:09.14 | DWSR | New drivers. |
| 00:09.48 | Arrowmaster | when my car got wreaked in 04 my mom was thinking about buying a new car and giving me hers, i was driving an older model of the same car she has but they discontinued it and their replacement for that model had the center guage dash |
| 00:10.00 | Jamie_^ | I wonder how long it'll be before cars with HUDs will be ubiquitous and start looking like the typical cluttered WoW UI. |
| 00:10.10 | Bruners | DWSR: where do i hide blizzard runethignies with sexycooldowns? |
| 00:10.46 | DWSR | Bruners: You're not using Blizzard's default UF, so oUF should provide the ability to hide them. |
| 00:10.48 | Jamie_^ | "Sorry, Officer, I couldn't see how fast I was going because my HP bar was in the way." |
| 00:10.51 | Jamie_^ | snickers, lamely. |
| 00:10.53 | Arrowmaster | she still has her car but i got a used coupe of the discontinued line |
| 00:12.16 | DWSR | A hud with simple things like speed, compass direction, perhaps a tachometer. |
| 00:12.34 | DWSR | Maybe even arrows from a nav system? |
| 00:16.10 | Jerub | a friend of mine before he got into IT worked as an auto-electrician |
| 00:16.20 | Jerub | he sold a tacho hud kit for rotaries |
| 00:16.50 | Bruners | DWSR: i have no idea how to set up sexycooldowns to show my rune cooldowns |
| 00:17.09 | Jerub | runes have CDs? i was wondering how they worked |
| 00:17.34 | Jerub | i have as yet, been unable to get a coherant explanation of DK mechanics |
| 00:18.23 | *** join/#wowuidev Torhal_ (n=callahan@74-132-200-5.dhcp.insightbb.com) |
| 00:20.15 | Jamie_^ | Ooh, a Bagnon update. |
| 00:20.40 | Bruners | Jerub: yes, each rune has a 10 second cooldown, some spells use two runes some use one, and you can convert them to death runes which can be used for anything |
| 00:21.01 | Tuller | Jamie_^: its just a few thingies I had on my list and implemented while I wait for a raid to start |
| 00:21.13 | Jamie_^ | Fair enough :-). |
| 00:21.29 | Jamie_^ | Don't suppose there's an ETA on those savable (sp) searches? |
| 00:21.29 | batbot | Jamie_^, salable. |
| 00:21.50 | Jamie_^ | ..No. |
| 00:22.06 | WobWork | saveable (sp?) |
| 00:22.06 | batbot | WobWork, saleable, save able, save-able. |
| 00:22.11 | WobWork | pft |
| 00:22.18 | Jamie_^ | Figures. |
| 00:22.32 | Jamie_^ | English needs an update. |
| 00:22.42 | WobWork | batbot uses American anyway |
| 00:22.45 | WobWork | not real English =P |
| 00:22.51 | Jamie_^ | Ah, worthless. |
| 00:23.16 | Tuller | I need to figure out a gui for saved searches beyond, " a series of icons below the title frame" |
| 00:23.57 | Jamie_^ | Hmm.. what's wrong with a series of icons? There could be a show/hide button just like with bags. |
| 00:24.23 | WobWork | "Save a search" -choose icon for saved search |
| 00:24.42 | Jamie_^ | nods. |
| 00:25.01 | Jamie_^ | The icon itself could always be restricted to whatever you have in your bags for simplicity. |
| 00:25.25 | WobWork | how is the search itself deliniated? |
| 00:25.30 | WobWork | text? |
| 00:25.33 | WobWork | or type |
| 00:26.26 | Tuller | its a text search |
| 00:26.31 | *** join/#wowuidev Aeyan (n=pancake@cpe-174-098-002-214.triad.res.rr.com) |
| 00:26.32 | Tuller | save -> name + icon |
| 00:27.00 | Tuller | the only unknown thing right now is how i'm going to order them :P |
| 00:27.56 | Jamie_^ | Order by creation and allow dragging them around? |
| 00:28.17 | Tuller | yeah, the coding of that ordering is the thing :P |
| 00:28.26 | Jamie_^ | Ah. |
| 00:28.49 | WobWork | perhaps you can add a count to the number of times a search is run |
| 00:28.55 | WobWork | and sort by 'popular search' |
| 00:30.30 | Jamie_^ | I'd personally find that rather annoying. I like to have some control over how things are ordered, and simply moving them around seems the best option short of overcomplicating things and adding a saved search sort dialog. |
| 00:31.27 | Tuller | either way, its work :P |
| 00:31.45 | Jamie_^ | nods |
| 00:31.53 | Tuller | but it might be something I feel like doing this weekend, so hurray |
| 00:32.46 | Jamie_^ | Can't wait to see it implemented, when you get round to it :-). |
| 00:37.35 | Jamie_^ | Just switched to Dominos to see if it works with my addon, and I'm delighted to see that it does -- mostly. I'm curious: what exactly is the bar containing buttons called "BonusActionButton"? I don't believe it's in by default. |
| 00:38.33 | Jamie_^ | Or at least it doesn't seem to be accessible by default. |
| 00:38.48 | kdtresh|work | maybe the bar that appears when you mount in the tournament? |
| 00:38.52 | Tuller | bonusactionbuttons are the buttons that pop up when you swap forms |
| 00:38.54 | kdtresh|work | or in ToC? |
| 00:39.02 | Tuller | since they're actual action buttons, I reuse them in dominos |
| 00:40.10 | Tuller | they're just plain ol buttons in dominos |
| 00:40.15 | Jamie_^ | Ahh, OK. I assumed that stance buttons used "ActionButton". |
| 00:41.17 | Tuller | they share the same bindings, but they are not the same buttons |
| 00:41.36 | Jamie_^ | I see. Same as the possess bar? |
| 00:42.08 | WobWork | hates soy milk in tea =( |
| 00:42.49 | Jamie_^ | Soy milk is great. Tea is great. Together? No. Tea is best without milk anyway. |
| 00:43.17 | Tuller | I believe they're used when possessing something, yes |
| 00:43.45 | Jamie_^ | OK, I'll keep that in mind. |
| 00:44.36 | *** join/#wowuidev Stew-a (n=Stewart@unafilliated/stewa/x-008753) |
| 00:45.40 | Jerub | hey, has anyone established any truth in the rumour that you can catch easydric's hammer by clicking on it as it flies towards you? |
| 00:46.42 | WobWork | I've tried it |
| 00:46.46 | WobWork | but never worked for me |
| 00:48.34 | Bruners | the proc rate on mirror of truth is really terrible |
| 00:53.59 | WobWork | Bruners: that's why you pair it with the Chromium coaster =P |
| 00:53.59 | *** join/#wowuidev Hirsute (n=chatzill@WoWUIDev/Norganna/Developer/Hirsute) |
| 00:54.23 | *** join/#wowuidev Dagmar (i=dagmar@unaffiliated/dagmar) |
| 00:54.49 | *** join/#wowuidev Spellshaper1 (n=Spellsha@dslb-084-057-247-030.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 00:55.01 | Hirsute | *sigh* The Gnomish Army Knife really needs to have jewelcrafter's tools in it, too. |
| 00:55.21 | ZorbaGama | and a virtuoso's kit |
| 00:55.53 | Dagmar | ...and a pony. |
| 00:55.59 | ZorbaGama | and an archaeologist's pick or whatever we end up needing in 4.0 |
| 00:56.02 | WobWork | a PONY |
| 00:56.13 | ZorbaGama | and a pony. |
| 00:56.35 | WobWork | or at least a pack mule |
| 00:56.55 | WobWork | while not quite as lovable as a pony, may indeed get crushed by lifts |
| 00:57.16 | Cairenn | WobWork: you should check out my FB status, you'll probably laugh |
| 00:57.50 | Dagmar | Steam is evil |
| 00:58.08 | ScytheBlade1 | s/evil/awesome/ |
| 00:58.08 | WobWork | Cairenn: I'm totally out of breath just reading that >< |
| 00:58.12 | Cairenn | hehehe |
| 00:58.23 | ScytheBlade1 | what is her status? |
| 00:58.49 | Cairenn | Gotta love cats! DJ: Psychopsychopsychoattackchairohmygodkillthechair batatfootoohanotherfootaribbonaribbon attackchairohmygodrunaway whap! (ran into the door) stumble psychopsychoattackfloor attackchair attackchair footfootfootfootchair chairmovingmovingchair attackattack JUMPintolap attackface liedown purrrrrrrrr! |
| 00:58.58 | ScytheBlade1 | lol |
| 00:59.42 | mitch0 | cats are stupid |
| 00:59.51 | tem | lol @ mmo-champion. "Torchlight and Borderlands count as technical issues" |
| 00:59.54 | mitch0 | they shit on my lawn |
| 01:00.38 | Dagmar | lol |
| 01:00.42 | Dagmar | TOO MANY GAMES TO PLAY |
| 01:00.49 | WobWork | I like torchlight =) |
| 01:01.01 | WobWork | it's retraining my clicktomove reflexes |
| 01:01.05 | Dagmar | Man that was sneaky of them |
| 01:01.36 | Dagmar | I had it download the demo, played it far too long, said "OKay, here's my $20. Now I can go do other things while it downloads the full version." |
| 01:01.42 | Dagmar | W-r-o-n-g. |
| 01:01.46 | Dagmar | 4am later... |
| 01:02.25 | Dagmar | Now I have to restrain myself because of Borderlands and Dragon Age both dropping at the same time |
| 01:03.03 | Cairenn|afk | Cair's Daughter: Dragon age is all kinds of wonderful |
| 01:03.03 | WobWork | I might download the Tristam mod for Torchlight |
| 01:03.07 | *** join/#wowuidev mitchnull (n=mitchnul@catv3EC944A1.pool.t-online.hu) |
| 01:03.22 | WobWork | it replaces all the music in town with the Diablo I music |
| 01:03.28 | WobWork | (and maybe elsewhere too...) |
| 01:03.46 | WobWork | Cairenn|afk: is Dragonage mmorpg? |
| 01:03.50 | WobWork | or singleplayer |
| 01:03.54 | Cairenn|afk | single player |
| 01:04.03 | WobWork | I'll wait til I'm bored of torchlight then =) |
| 01:06.00 | *** join/#wowuidev Kraftman (n=Chris@cpc1-cwma7-2-0-cust280.7-3.cable.virginmedia.com) |
| 01:06.01 | Tuller | you know, the torchlight music sounded an awful lot like tristram to me when I first entered the town |
| 01:06.12 | WobWork | It's based on it |
| 01:06.20 | WobWork | really closely based on it =P |
| 01:06.26 | Tuller | as in same composer and guitars |
| 01:06.44 | Tuller | my question is: does it get harder? :P |
| 01:06.53 | Dagmar | Definitely the same sound |
| 01:07.07 | Dagmar | I doubt Torchlight gets much harder considering it's a Monty Haul game in the first place |
| 01:09.57 | WobWork | Monty Hall? |
| 01:10.04 | Antiarc | What difficulty are you playing on? |
| 01:10.24 | Antiarc | Also, check out my leet boots: http://i33.tinypic.com/cm6g4.jpg |
| 01:10.24 | Tuller | hard |
| 01:10.43 | Antiarc | It gets difficult in the last stage/infinite dungeon |
| 01:10.44 | *** join/#wowuidev Balreign (n=Balreign@ANantes-156-1-68-171.w90-12.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 01:10.49 | WobWork | Antiarc: how much did you spend on enchanting? =P |
| 01:10.57 | Antiarc | WobWork: Not a dime, I fished those up |
| 01:11.06 | WobWork | hehe nice |
| 01:11.14 | Antiarc | My pistols, on the other hand... |
| 01:11.20 | WobWork | dupe them =P |
| 01:11.46 | WobWork | I quite like the vanquisher as a trapping build |
| 01:12.06 | WobWork | (It -is- vanquisher, isn't it?) |
| 01:12.07 | Antiarc | I'm playing Marks. Explosive Shot is broken as hell. |
| 01:12.08 | Antiarc | Yeah. |
| 01:12.11 | WobWork | I get the names confused |
| 01:12.23 | Antiarc | My explosive shot will crit all mobs in a quarter of the screen for ~12k. |
| 01:12.30 | WobWork | I don't have to shoot anything |
| 01:12.31 | Antiarc | I have almost 40% crit right now. |
| 01:12.36 | WobWork | I just lay down two fletchette traps |
| 01:12.44 | WobWork | and the crossfire wipes everything out |
| 01:12.58 | Antiarc | Dervish + Explosive Shot spam obliterates bosses. It's hilarious. |
| 01:13.00 | *** part/#wowuidev mitchnull (n=mitchnul@catv3EC944A1.pool.t-online.hu) |
| 01:13.47 | WobWork | as does Fletchette + Void traps =) |
| 01:13.48 | Dagmar | I just know I click a lot, my screen fills will little colored balls of light, everyone dies. |
| 01:13.52 | WobWork | yeah |
| 01:14.10 | WobWork | Dagmar: what do you mean it's a Monty Hall game, btw? |
| 01:14.22 | Dagmar | Homing spell missiles + pushback means never having to care how close they are |
| 01:14.37 | WobWork | oh haul |
| 01:14.42 | Dagmar | WobWork: Not Monty Hall, Monty Haul. |
| 01:14.47 | WobWork | oh god |
| 01:14.50 | *** join/#wowuidev Torhal- (n=callahan@74-132-200-5.dhcp.insightbb.com) |
| 01:14.52 | Dagmar | It's slang for a game where you're just buried in freakin' loot |
| 01:14.53 | WobWork | you've gotten me onto tvtropes |
| 01:15.00 | WobWork | I'll never leave =( |
| 01:15.04 | Dagmar | This is why your pet can go back to town to sell off crap for you |
| 01:15.08 | WobWork | Tell mom I love her =( |
| 01:15.21 | Dagmar | ...and why you can shift click items to just make the pet pick up the common ones so you don't have to. |
| 01:16.01 | Dagmar | I like the new shared stash chest. That's handy |
| 01:16.07 | WobWork | I've been playing around with some of the mods |
| 01:16.09 | Dagmar | Keeps me from havin' to hack up saved games |
| 01:16.14 | WobWork | the permianent fish one is fun |
| 01:16.19 | WobWork | having a Mimic as a pet is amusing |
| 01:16.28 | WobWork | I pretend I'm Rincewind |
| 01:16.33 | Antiarc | Haha |
| 01:16.38 | Antiarc | I really don't use fish much at all |
| 01:16.43 | Dagmar | If they did the same thing as Fate, pretty much all models are available as fish |
| 01:16.47 | WobWork | yeah |
| 01:16.51 | Dagmar | Some are just a lot rarer than others |
| 01:16.53 | Antiarc | I just put heal all/freeze on my pet and it runs around healing me and slowing stuff |
| 01:16.55 | WobWork | or at least a good number |
| 01:16.57 | Dagmar | ...like Dragon. |
| 01:17.00 | *** join/#wowuidev Tuller (n=Tuller@pool-72-84-246-12.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net) |
| 01:17.03 | WobWork | I gave my pet Bees |
| 01:17.06 | Dagmar | heheh |
| 01:17.06 | WobWork | it's AWESOME |
| 01:17.16 | Antiarc | I just fished enough to get my Sushi Helm |
| 01:17.21 | WobWork | Bees is one of the 'official' patches |
| 01:17.21 | Antiarc | And now I just dungeon crawl |
| 01:17.35 | Dagmar | Antiarc: I stacked a bunch of health stealing stones into my wand |
| 01:17.48 | WobWork | I have mana steal in mine |
| 01:17.49 | Antiarc | My pistols steal something like 200HP per hit, heh |
| 01:17.52 | WobWork | cause traps are expensive =( |
| 01:17.56 | Dagmar | Awesome |
| 01:18.01 | WobWork | my pet does the heal all =) |
| 01:18.30 | WobWork | I wish they'd fix the pet pathing at times, though |
| 01:18.36 | Antiarc | I put a point in hamstring last night for the hell of it. It's a hilarious talent. |
| 01:18.43 | Dagmar | This is why I didn't make it my pet's job to keep me alive |
| 01:18.50 | Antiarc | My helm has a 3% chance to fear on it, and Hamstring hits something like 20 times/second |
| 01:19.12 | Antiarc | So I just press Hamstring and run through a bunch of mobs, and they all run off feared, so I switch to Explosive and pick them off. |
| 01:19.17 | Antiarc | Works amazingly well. |
| 01:19.29 | Antiarc | Plus, Hamstring + 25% native movespeed is hilariously fast |
| 01:19.39 | WobWork | Or you can give your pet a web attack |
| 01:19.47 | WobWork | and let it group the mobs for you =) |
| 01:20.21 | WobWork | one mod you might look into, is the respec potion one |
| 01:20.26 | Antiarc | yeah, I've got it |
| 01:20.46 | Antiarc | I got a mace last night with +60% to crit damage on it, which puts my crit modifier at 380%. |
| 01:20.54 | Antiarc | It's several flavors of silly. |
| 01:21.12 | WobWork | why else do we play these games if not for the silly numbers =) |
| 01:21.21 | Dagmar | Because we're addicted to loot |
| 01:21.27 | Dagmar | ....and this is a classic MH |
| 01:21.33 | *** join/#wowuidev ckknight (n=ckknight@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/CurseStaff/CurseForge/ckknight) |
| 01:21.33 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o ckknight] by ChanServ |
| 01:21.34 | WobWork | I can quit loot -anytime- =( |
| 01:21.39 | Dagmar | Suuuure you can |
| 01:21.52 | Antiarc | I've had to stop picking up greens. Just blues/uniques/set pieces now :( |
| 01:21.59 | Antiarc | I get too overloaded too quickly otherwise |
| 01:22.07 | WobWork | my shared stash is too full of blues |
| 01:22.13 | Dagmar | I do have to say tho', while I think maybe they should, you know, write a *new* game instead of the same one over and over, I think they've gotten it pretty close to perfect this time |
| 01:22.18 | WobWork | I don't know what to sell |
| 01:22.18 | Antiarc | My shared stash is almost entirely uniques/set pieces, heh |
| 01:22.32 | Antiarc | Just transmute the stuff you won't reeally use |
| 01:22.45 | WobWork | I don't really need the gems either =\ |
| 01:23.04 | WobWork | as I abused the dupe bug for those |
| 01:23.11 | Dagmar | I totally forget whether or not you can transmute spare weapons into anything |
| 01:23.26 | Antiarc | 4x magic items = 1x cracked/dull gem |
| 01:23.37 | WobWork | I -do- want to get the identify spell though |
| 01:23.42 | Antiarc | I got that super early |
| 01:23.42 | WobWork | I'm sick of having to buy scrolls |
| 01:23.52 | Dagmar | Excellent, because they don't sell for crap |
| 01:23.52 | Antiarc | Like, first couple of floors early |
| 01:23.54 | Dagmar | Gems I can use |
| 01:24.10 | WobWork | it's a hell of a process to get gems to the unique level |
| 01:24.13 | Antiarc | yeah. |
| 01:24.22 | Dagmar | Yeah I remember that bit from all the Fate games. Save every bloody penny because Identify will cost you everything when you first see it |
| 01:24.23 | WobWork | it's kinda why I used the bug |
| 01:24.24 | Antiarc | I've got a few Star gems, but they're relatively useless grade. |
| 01:24.25 | Dagmar | ...and it'll be worth it |
| 01:24.43 | WobWork | cause I don't really intend to play long enough to get enough gems to that point =P |
| 01:24.48 | Antiarc | I've been tempted to install the vendor price mod, but I've held off just because that + enchanting being broken would really spoil the game |
| 01:25.14 | Antiarc | Crit failing enchanting makes me super sad though |
| 01:25.30 | WobWork | yeah, you can lose a lot of cash that way |
| 01:25.50 | WobWork | you should totally get a refund if the enchanter fails so miserably =P |
| 01:26.01 | Dagmar | In Fate the money problem goes away if you just use the gambling guy |
| 01:26.18 | Dagmar | most of the time if you buy 3-4 items, one of them will be worth selling to a vendor to make up the rest |
| 01:26.34 | WobWork | the few times I've used him, it seemed pretty useless |
| 01:27.00 | Dagmar | I'm gonna have to see if I can get this thing to run from a thumbdrive later |
| 01:27.11 | Dagmar | I dunno if it being from Steam will screw that up or not |
| 01:27.27 | WobWork | hm |
| 01:27.33 | WobWork | I'd run it off my netbook |
| 01:27.40 | WobWork | if I didn't need a mouse to play |
| 01:27.47 | Dagmar | I know after a little beating on it, Fate was handy enough to run at work when things got ultra-dead |
| 01:34.19 | Shirik | jnwhiteh, or anyone that knows Lisp |
| 01:34.21 | Shirik | I have a problem |
| 01:34.38 | Shirik | I have a function which just returns the sum of all numbers from 0 to x |
| 01:34.44 | Shirik | (defun mysum(x) (if (>= 0 x) 0 (+ 1 (mysum (- x 1))))) |
| 01:34.59 | Arrowmaster | hmm that new V series is on right now, ill have to download it later, i wonder how many major plot points of the entire series i could spoil by guessing before even seeing the first ep |
| 01:35.16 | Shirik | My interpreter refuses to accept it because it argues there is a possibility of infinite recursion |
| 01:35.48 | WobWork | Arrowmaster: V series? |
| 01:35.48 | Shirik | This is its proof (not that it's going to help): http://wowi.pastey.net/127539 |
| 01:35.57 | Shirik | anyone see why it could have infinite recursion? |
| 01:36.31 | *** join/#wowuidev Kraft (n=Chris@cpc1-cwma7-2-0-cust280.7-3.cable.virginmedia.com) |
| 01:36.44 | Arrowmaster | WobWork: yes a new one http://tvrage.com/shows/id-22814 |
| 01:37.18 | Arrowmaster | owns the original V miniseries and tv series on dvd |
| 01:37.34 | *** join/#wowuidev Ginji (n=Ginji@cc624207-a.gorre1.fr.home.nl) |
| 01:37.45 | WobWork | Arrowmaster: Oh, I thought it was related to V for Vendetta |
| 01:38.10 | WobWork | why do we rehash old series? =( |
| 01:39.01 | Arrowmaster | lol |
| 01:39.02 | Arrowmaster | http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085106/ |
| 01:39.11 | Arrowmaster | look at the 'us tv schudule' |
| 01:40.19 | WobWork | O.O |
| 01:40.20 | WobWork | On 30 October 1982, Dominique Dunne, who had been signed to play the role of Robin Maxwell, was at her house with co-star David Packer going over lines for the next day's filming, when her boyfriend John Sweeny arrived unexpectedly and throttled Dunne into a coma. Five Days later, on 4 November 1982, Dunne died. |
| 01:41.35 | WobWork | Arrowmaster: look at the what? |
| 01:42.08 | Arrowmaster | syfy was showing the original miniseries today |
| 01:43.47 | Arrowmaster | ah ha found it, one of them wasnt showing up on an imdb search for V |
| 01:44.08 | Arrowmaster | http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085106/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086823/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086822/ |
| 01:45.58 | Arrowmaster | yeah yeah one of you is probably thinking im weird for all the tv shows and movies i have from before i was even born |
| 01:49.25 | Seerah | does this mean I'm getting old then, if I was born before that?... |
| 01:52.11 | Seerah | good boy for not answering ;) |
| 01:52.25 | Lopeppeppy | Very wise boy. |
| 01:52.51 | Lopeppeppy | We had this discussion the other day, regarding how much older I am than some people here. :) I rather think you and I are about the same age, Seerah. |
| 01:53.01 | Seerah | I think we are |
| 01:53.10 | Seerah | 29 here |
| 01:53.28 | Lopeppeppy | Oh dear me no. I'm older by some 5++ years. |
| 01:53.35 | Cairenn | oh hush, both of you |
| 01:53.38 | Cairenn | puppies |
| 01:53.40 | Seerah | well then /me huggles Lopeppeppy |
| 01:53.42 | Seerah | and Cairenn :D |
| 01:53.47 | WobWork | wait.. puppies? |
| 01:53.49 | WobWork | where? |
| 01:53.50 | Lopeppeppy | *woof woof pant cutely* |
| 01:53.55 | Cairenn | :) |
| 01:54.01 | WobWork | scratches Lopeppeppy behind the ears |
| 01:54.03 | Seerah | I burst out in giggles at that :p |
| 01:54.16 | Lopeppeppy | Yay, I get scritches!!! |
| 01:54.30 | Cairenn | scritches Lopeppeppy on the belly |
| 01:54.45 | Lopeppeppy | Rawr. |
| 01:55.14 | harl | rawr! |
| 01:55.47 | *** join/#wowuidev Bibi (n=Bibi@AVelizy-151-1-87-42.w86-205.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 02:01.39 | Lopeppeppy | TTFN, everypeople. *hugs all around* |
| 02:06.23 | Jerub | anyone know if the set bonus for http://www.wowwiki.com/Shiny_Shard_of_the_Flame http://www.wowwiki.com/Purified_Shard_of_the_Scale will work together? |
| 02:07.04 | *** join/#wowuidev Adys (n=Adys@unaffiliated/adys) |
| 02:07.08 | *** join/#wowuidev Adys_ (n=Adys@unaffiliated/adys) |
| 02:07.39 | *** join/#wowuidev Adys (n=Adys@unaffiliated/adys) |
| 02:13.32 | Shirik | Cairenn |
| 02:13.35 | Shirik | tell me why my code doesn't work |
| 02:13.39 | Cairenn | Shirik |
| 02:13.42 | Cairenn | because it doesn't |
| 02:13.46 | Shirik | :( |
| 02:13.58 | Cairenn | my daughter says it's because it hates you |
| 02:14.01 | Shirik | :( |
| 02:14.10 | WobWork | Your daughter is wise in the ways of code |
| 02:14.25 | Cairenn | hugs Shirik |
| 02:14.31 | Cairenn | sorry it hates you and doesn't work |
| 02:14.40 | Shirik | The application tells me my code is wrong, and gives me a 5588-line proof about how it knows it's wrong |
| 02:14.48 | Shirik | but I cba to read that >< |
| 02:14.51 | WobWork | that's pretty definitive |
| 02:14.51 | Cairenn | heh |
| 02:15.01 | WobWork | perhaps you have your limiter set incorrectly? |
| 02:15.09 | WobWork | I can't read lisp, so I can't say for sure |
| 02:15.22 | Shirik | limiter? |
| 02:15.45 | WobWork | whatever limit you place on the function to prevent it from running infinitely deep |
| 02:16.05 | Shirik | well it should just count down from x to 0 |
| 02:16.18 | WobWork | do you check that x > 0 to start with? |
| 02:17.10 | Shirik | that was my first failure |
| 02:17.19 | Shirik | But I recognized that problem and said if x <= 0 return 0 |
| 02:17.24 | *** join/#wowuidev soufron (n=soufron@vol75-1-81-57-79-123.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 02:17.31 | Shirik | so if it's not it should just return immediately |
| 02:18.18 | Shadowed | hmm |
| 02:18.21 | Shadowed | I see someone pinged me :< |
| 02:18.32 | Shadowed | but logs are terrible and I can't see who, whee! |
| 02:19.21 | Shirik | my logs are 10M large |
| 02:19.22 | WobWork | should it be (- x 1) or (- 1 x)? |
| 02:19.25 | Shirik | if I can't see it, I probably died |
| 02:19.29 | Shirik | - x 1 is x - 1 |
| 02:19.30 | Seerah | Shadowed: was someone asking someone else if they were using shadowed uf or ouf, iirc |
| 02:19.35 | Shadowed | aha there we go |
| 02:19.46 | WobWork | so (>= 0 x) is (0 >= x)? |
| 02:19.51 | Shirik | right |
| 02:19.52 | Shadowed | Linkinus is a terrible client :< |
| 02:20.38 | Shirik | it's polish notation, if you know that, WobWork |
| 02:20.39 | *** join/#wowuidev Iriel (n=Iriel@adsl-71-158-244-138.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) |
| 02:20.40 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o Iriel] by ChanServ |
| 02:20.43 | Shadowed | and you have a scarely good memory Seerah |
| 02:20.44 | WobWork | yeah |
| 02:20.54 | Shirik | Iriel! |
| 02:20.57 | Shirik | Do you know Lisp? |
| 02:21.05 | Iriel | Shirik! |
| 02:21.17 | WobWork | all I can suggest is there's a syntax issue somewhere then = |
| 02:21.17 | Iriel | Not very well, I've been learning scheme (again, I tried once before but got distracted) |
| 02:21.18 | WobWork | \ |
| 02:21.29 | Shirik | I have this: (defun mysum(x) (if (>= 0 x) 0 (+ x (mysum (- x 1))))) |
| 02:21.38 | Iriel | I can often figure enough out to bend emacs to my will |
| 02:21.42 | WobWork | wait, you had +1 earlier? |
| 02:21.49 | Shirik | Yeah I changed it WobWork :) |
| 02:21.53 | Shirik | should be identical |
| 02:21.59 | Shirik | (except for the result) |
| 02:22.05 | WobWork | isn't that ... yeah =P |
| 02:22.11 | WobWork | a completely different function =) |
| 02:22.19 | Shirik | but the fact that it can trigger infinite recursion is the same |
| 02:22.24 | Shirik | because that's obviously not how |
| 02:22.36 | Shirik | Iriel: I get a 5k+ line proof that it can do infinite recursion: http://wowi.pastey.net/127536 |
| 02:22.38 | Shirik | And I have no idea why |
| 02:22.38 | Shirik | :( |
| 02:22.39 | *** join/#wowuidev yleaf (n=chatzill@116.234.199.26) |
| 02:22.42 | Shirik | I think it's lying to me |
| 02:22.59 | WobWork | sweet little lies |
| 02:23.06 | Shirik | whoops |
| 02:23.08 | Shirik | wrong pastey |
| 02:23.40 | Shirik | http://wowi.pastey.net/127539 |
| 02:23.49 | Shirik | (not that it's any help) |
| 02:26.28 | *** join/#wowuidev Antiarc (n=Antiarc@wsip-70-167-195-98.ph.ph.cox.net) |
| 02:28.27 | WobWork | I was looking for the banana walnut cranberry muffin I'd brought to work |
| 02:28.28 | Iriel | Shirik: Is your question 'how can that go infinite' or 'where does the proof go wrong' ? |
| 02:28.29 | *** join/#wowuidev daev (n=bleh@pool-72-86-106-233.aubnin.fios.verizon.net) |
| 02:28.38 | Shirik | the proof is never wrong |
| 02:28.39 | Shirik | (we hope) |
| 02:28.39 | WobWork | only to realise that I'd already eaten it =( |
| 02:28.49 | Shirik | The question is really "how can this be infinite recursion" |
| 02:29.10 | Shirik | Keep in mind the theorem prover is allowed to think of some really assinine things, like calling (mysum "hello") |
| 02:29.16 | Shirik | but I tested that, and that just triggers an error |
| 02:29.41 | Iriel | Can it pass complex numbers? |
| 02:29.58 | Shirik | I don't know if Lisp has complex numbers |
| 02:29.59 | Shirik | does it? |
| 02:30.13 | Iriel | I have no idea.. I see 'COMPLEX-RATIONALP' and wonder what it means 8-) |
| 02:30.33 | Shirik | I can't read that proof either |
| 02:30.34 | Shirik | so :P |
| 02:32.09 | Shirik | Error: #C(0 1) is not of type (OR RATIONAL FLOAT). |
| 02:32.16 | Shirik | btw Lisp can do complex numbers |
| 02:32.19 | Shirik | #C(real imaginary) |
| 02:32.29 | Shirik | but it appears >= requires one of "OR RATIONAL FLOAT" |
| 02:32.46 | Shirik | I think that just means real numbers, rational numbers, or floats |
| 02:32.54 | Shirik | (some of which are subsets) |
| 02:32.57 | Shirik | (but not important) |
| 02:33.22 | Iriel | Hm, is there a freaky floating point case where x - 1 isn't < x |
| 02:33.36 | Shirik | we can ask it! |
| 02:33.39 | Iriel | I would hope not (or if there was, that it wouldn't be caught by the prover) |
| 02:33.42 | Shirik | I love this thing :D |
| 02:34.23 | Shirik | http://wowi.pastey.net/127545 |
| 02:34.31 | Shirik | So no, x-1 is always < x |
| 02:34.58 | Shirik | I like its proof though, lol |
| 02:35.02 | Iriel | Actually, I see one thing I dont necessarily agree with |
| 02:35.04 | Shirik | "This simplifies to T, so it is true. QED" |
| 02:35.14 | Iriel | The first statement isn't correct |
| 02:35.54 | Shirik | which statement? |
| 02:36.04 | Iriel | Well, i'm not sure exactly how to read this so maybe i'm wrong 8-) |
| 02:36.16 | Shirik | I just learned it today |
| 02:36.20 | Shirik | so your guess is as good as mine |
| 02:36.37 | Iriel | Well, Who starts the thing with (< 0 X) |
| 02:37.25 | Shirik | oh, it's saying "if (< 0 X) then (that other junk) |
| 02:37.37 | Shirik | so it recognized that x can't be .... wait what? |
| 02:37.46 | Shirik | wait yeah |
| 02:37.49 | Shirik | if 0 is less than x |
| 02:37.50 | Iriel | I THINK it's saying that, for values of X greater than zero |
| 02:37.53 | Shirik | so x can't be negative |
| 02:38.14 | Iriel | the number of steps executed for (X - 1) is less than the number of steps executed for X |
| 02:38.17 | Shirik | So basically it's already determined "the cases where x is less than or equal to 0 are trivial. We need to prove the rest" |
| 02:38.41 | Shirik | That makes sense, Iriel |
| 02:38.47 | Shirik | because its goal is to see if we're approaching the end |
| 02:38.51 | Torhal- | mitch0: Eh? |
| 02:39.08 | Shirik | Take note it doesn't know that's true yet. That's what it WANTS to prove (hence why it says "Goal") |
| 02:39.12 | Iriel | Yes |
| 02:39.23 | Iriel | Can you influence the initial limit on X? |
| 02:39.32 | Iriel | Or does it come up with that by itself? |
| 02:39.54 | Shirik | It should come up on it by itself, but it should have come from the statement in the function, (if (>= 0 x) |
| 02:40.01 | Shirik | recall (defun mysum(x) (if (>= 0 x) 0 (+ x (mysum (- x 1))))) |
| 02:40.29 | Shirik | so basically what it's caring about now is the half (+ x (mysum (- x 1))) |
| 02:41.10 | Shirik | (which is what would be used if 0 < x, right? |
| 02:41.22 | Iriel | Most of this 'proof' is about complex numbers, by the way |
| 02:41.40 | Shirik | hm |
| 02:41.45 | Iriel | Up to line 1500, at least |
| 02:41.48 | Iriel | I'm still scanning |
| 02:43.22 | Iriel | Can you put an integer test into the original conditional (to short circuit to 0 if the number is NOT a normal real integer) ? |
| 02:44.29 | Shirik | trying to find out how :) |
| 02:44.47 | Shirik | whatever random sequence of letters means "is an integer" |
| 02:44.56 | Iriel | (INTEGERP x) |
| 02:44.58 | Iriel | I think |
| 02:45.12 | Iriel | or something equally freakish |
| 02:45.47 | Shirik | Iriel wins |
| 02:46.12 | Shirik | (defun mysum(x) (if (or (not (integerp x)) (>= 0 x)) 0 (+ x (mysum (- x 1))))) |
| 02:46.49 | Iriel | I dont think the prover properly takes into account that you can't compare complex numbers with >= |
| 02:47.10 | Shirik | Proof succeeded |
| 02:47.36 | Shirik | Iriel: The prover only knows what it knows. In fact, it never proves something false. It simply fails to prove it true. |
| 02:47.53 | Shirik | There are these things known as "books" that I can feed it to increase its knowledge of the "logical world" |
| 02:48.02 | Shirik | maybe there's one for complex numbers |
| 02:48.33 | Shirik | But yeah: proof succeeded http://wowi.pastey.net/127546 |
| 02:49.12 | *** join/#wowuidev Kowski (n=ykow@pv130242.reshsg.uci.edu) |
| 02:49.35 | Shirik | <3 Iriel |
| 02:50.18 | Iriel | The power of coffee |
| 02:50.39 | Iriel | (I've been without all day, until I got home (shortly before I logged in)) |
| 02:50.42 | Shirik | That being said, this thing is still incredibly awesome |
| 02:50.46 | Shirik | proves some crazy things |
| 02:50.51 | Shirik | gotta run bbl |
| 02:52.54 | *** join/#wowuidev bluspacecow (n=bluspace@60-234-165-167.bitstream.orcon.net.nz) |
| 02:53.45 | *** join/#wowuidev ckknight (n=ckknight@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/CurseStaff/CurseForge/ckknight) |
| 02:53.45 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o ckknight] by ChanServ |
| 02:53.52 | bluspacecow | hai ck |
| 02:54.03 | bluspacecow | oh nom nom nom |
| 02:56.32 | kd3 | wow |
| 02:56.34 | kd3 | that's odd |
| 02:56.42 | kd3 | it's tuesday and there's still no new ptr build |
| 02:56.47 | bluspacecow | yep i am odd |
| 02:56.55 | bluspacecow | did it go down for maintence |
| 02:56.55 | ScytheBlade1 | I thought it was wednesday |
| 02:57.02 | ScytheBlade1 | (Really...) |
| 02:57.03 | bluspacecow | gahh can never spell that right |
| 02:58.15 | bluspacecow | kd3 : http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=20860998498&sid=1 |
| 02:58.26 | bluspacecow | "We're working on updating the PTR servers to a new test build," |
| 02:58.35 | bluspacecow | "The new PTR build is 0.3.0.10747." |
| 02:58.44 | bluspacecow | last one was 717 AFAIK |
| 02:58.46 | ScytheBlade1 | So my desktop is made of awesome and win... it built a debug copy of chrome in 56 minutes |
| 02:58.52 | kd3 | wtfs at his client not getting the new build |
| 02:58.54 | ScytheBlade1 | (480MB binary, dynamically linked) |
| 02:59.20 | bluspacecow | kd3 : are you opening the Launcher inside the World of Warcraft Public test folder ? |
| 02:59.27 | kd3 | ... |
| 02:59.44 | ScytheBlade1 | I lol'd a little |
| 02:59.52 | bluspacecow | giving that a go now .... look its downloading a new build |
| 03:00.41 | bluspacecow | WoW-0.3.0.10712-to-0.3.0.10747-enUS-ptr-patch.app = 84.6 MB |
| 03:00.58 | *** join/#wowuidev mascondante (i=kvirc@99-196-36-186.cust.wildblue.net) |
| 03:01.04 | kd3 | sighs and fires up his mirror-scraping script |
| 03:01.31 | bluspacecow | QQ i cant post on the forums as its "that time of the month" |
| 03:02.05 | Shirik | ScytheBlade1, do you see how much more awesome Iriel is than you? |
| 03:02.15 | ScytheBlade1 | Shirik: .. er? |
| 03:02.41 | Shirik | Iriel found the problem. You did not. However.... I am convinced that it SHOULD have been able to be proven. Perhaps I'll write up some theorem for it. |
| 03:02.51 | Jerub | anyone know if the set bonus for http://www.wowwiki.com/Shiny_Shard_of_the_Flame http://www.wowwiki.com/Purified_Shard_of_the_Scale will work together? |
| 03:02.59 | Iriel | Shirik: As I said before, I think it's a defect in the prover |
| 03:03.08 | Shirik | It's likely not a defect, just a lack of knowledge |
| 03:03.09 | bluspacecow | shirik : the thereom of "irel is always right" ? |
| 03:03.25 | Iriel | Shirik: Because the initial expression of the implication couldn't be true for a complex X |
| 03:03.39 | Shirik | I'm running a few theorems right now to see where it failed exactly |
| 03:04.39 | Shirik | I'm sorry I'm confused. What do you mean the initial expression of the implication? |
| 03:04.40 | kd3 | great |
| 03:04.46 | kd3 | bnet accounts aren't getting the update |
| 03:04.57 | kd3 | logged in with bogus info and got it |
| 03:05.16 | Iriel | (IMPLIES (< 0 X) |
| 03:05.16 | Iriel | <PROTECTED> |
| 03:05.16 | Iriel | <PROTECTED> |
| 03:05.20 | bluspacecow | <PROTECTED> |
| 03:06.07 | bluspacecow | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=20860796830&postId=206758950743 |
| 03:06.09 | Shirik | Why do you say that's not true for a complex X? |
| 03:06.12 | Shirik | oh |
| 03:06.13 | Shirik | the < 0 X |
| 03:06.21 | bluspacecow | then http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=20677235527&sid=1 |
| 03:08.12 | Shirik | ah, Iriel, there's the fault |
| 03:08.20 | Shirik | < 0 X is in fact legal to do on complex numbers |
| 03:08.33 | *** join/#wowuidev Twisol (n=solugon@cpe-76-174-158-239.socal.res.rr.com) |
| 03:08.36 | Shirik | however, I have a default guard on that throws an error whenever I try to, because it's probably something I didn't want to do |
| 03:08.45 | Iriel | OH, so it doesn't properly reverse >= 0 X |
| 03:08.55 | Iriel | or is that legal on complex #'s too? |
| 03:09.03 | Shirik | haven't checked, but probably same story |
| 03:09.19 | Shirik | yeah, also legal |
| 03:09.23 | Iriel | all is good in the world then 8-) |
| 03:09.25 | Shirik | so the prover was right in considering that a possibility |
| 03:09.50 | Twisol | Is it possible for an addon to attach the quest levels to the left side of the quests in the log without writing a whole new quest log? |
| 03:09.55 | Shirik | Thing is, the prover should never be able to do something incorrectly, because to increase its knowledge about what it can do, it has to prove that knowledge to be true |
| 03:10.08 | Shirik | so you can supply it with new theorems, and when you do it first proves the theorem, and then remembers it so it can be used later |
| 03:10.38 | Shirik | however, what bugs me still is why this wouldn't work with complex numbers |
| 03:10.38 | ScytheBlade1 | haha I'm bad at reading |
| 03:10.47 | Shirik | -1+1j is still < 0 |
| 03:10.47 | ScytheBlade1 | It took my i7 10 minutes to build a copy of chrome from scratch |
| 03:10.59 | Iriel | What are the semantics of >= w.r.t. complex numbers? |
| 03:11.01 | bluspacecow | *hands scythe a copy of the Little Engine that could* |
| 03:11.23 | Iriel | does it compare real part only ? |
| 03:11.30 | Shirik | for a number r+nj, if n != 0, it compares the real part |
| 03:11.38 | Shirik | er, well r+nj > 0 |
| 03:11.39 | Shirik | is all I tested |
| 03:11.44 | Shirik | but it compares the real part if r != 0 |
| 03:11.49 | bluspacecow | O_O |
| 03:11.51 | bluspacecow | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=16409621711&sid=1&pageNo=21 |
| 03:11.52 | Shirik | otherwise it compares the n part |
| 03:11.53 | bluspacecow | NECRO ! |
| 03:12.18 | Shirik | so if r == 0, then r > 0, else n > 0 |
| 03:12.23 | bluspacecow | wow instant ignore for that guy |
| 03:12.40 | Shirik | at least that's what I got from my initial testing |
| 03:12.48 | Twisol | (r == 0 and r > 0 or n > 0)? |
| 03:13.02 | Twisol | except that looks wrong. |
| 03:13.04 | Shirik | bad idea Twisol :) |
| 03:13.06 | Twisol | ? |
| 03:13.10 | Shirik | That will not work the way you want it to |
| 03:13.15 | Iriel | Shirik: try with r == 4 or something |
| 03:13.21 | Twisol | I don't really know what's going on here ;) |
| 03:13.32 | Shirik | still, you picked up on what I said correctly |
| 03:13.35 | Shirik | but it won't do what you want in Lua :) |
| 03:13.35 | Twisol | but you put "r == 0 then r > 0 else n > 0" |
| 03:13.39 | Twisol | if r == 0 then r > 0 is false |
| 03:14.04 | Twisol | so I'm confused that, I think you meant 'then n > 0 else r > 0'? but again I just popped in. |
| 03:14.05 | Shirik | I meant r != 0 |
| 03:14.06 | Twisol | *there |
| 03:14.10 | Twisol | ok, same net effect. |
| 03:14.17 | Shirik | yes, and it's still wrong :) |
| 03:14.19 | Twisol | ;) |
| 03:14.24 | Shirik | you can't do "r == 0 and r > 0 or n >0" |
| 03:14.25 | Twisol | naive translation to lua |
| 03:14.40 | bluspacecow | and now ive seen everything |
| 03:14.42 | bluspacecow | http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/news/2009/october/peg.jpg |
| 03:14.49 | bluspacecow | ^^^^ a pug dog pet in wow |
| 03:14.55 | Shirik | lua> r = -1; n = 1; return (r == 0 and r > 0 or n > 0) |
| 03:14.56 | lua_bot | Shirik: true |
| 03:14.59 | Shirik | Note that should be false |
| 03:15.16 | Twisol | You meant != |
| 03:15.18 | WobWork | bluspacecow: I wish they had more breeds |
| 03:15.19 | Shirik | eh |
| 03:15.21 | Shirik | same diff |
| 03:15.21 | Twisol | lol. |
| 03:15.25 | Shirik | lua> r = -1; n = 1; return (r != 0 and r > 0 or n > 0) |
| 03:15.25 | lua_bot | Shirik: luabot:1: ')' expected near '!' |
| 03:15.27 | Shirik | .. |
| 03:15.31 | Shirik | lua> r = -1; n = 1; return (r ~= 0 and r > 0 or n > 0) |
| 03:15.31 | lua_bot | Shirik: true |
| 03:15.32 | WobWork | er lua dude |
| 03:15.35 | Shirik | again, it should be false |
| 03:15.40 | bluspacecow | O_O "Meeting Stones: To use any Meeting Stone, it is only required that the characterâs minimum level be 15. There is no maximum character level requirement for any Meeting Stone." |
| 03:15.43 | Twisol | right, I see. |
| 03:15.50 | Shirik | the problem is r > 0 is false |
| 03:15.54 | Shirik | so it moves on to the "or" |
| 03:15.58 | WobWork | bluspacecow: what about RFC? |
| 03:15.59 | Shirik | and .. or is not a perfect ternary operator |
| 03:16.01 | Twisol | it's not really a tertiary operator, just a useful hack |
| 03:16.03 | Twisol | *nod* |
| 03:16.05 | Shirik | it only works if that middle term is always true |
| 03:16.20 | Shirik | or, more specifically, if the first part implies that the second part is true |
| 03:16.24 | bluspacecow | wob : can you read mmo-champion.com from where you are ? IE is it not blocked ? |
| 03:16.34 | Twisol | I see. |
| 03:16.46 | WobWork | bluspacecow: I can, but I avoid doing so directly =) |
| 03:17.08 | Twisol | Unrelated question - can I create a pure-Lua plugin (with no XML of my own) to add a quest level to the default quest log? |
| 03:17.16 | bluspacecow | ok Wob by what do you mean by "RFC" |
| 03:17.20 | Legorol | yes Twisol |
| 03:17.24 | WobWork | Ragefire Chasm? |
| 03:17.30 | Shirik | Here's a fun theorem to ask it, Iriel |
| 03:17.31 | WobWork | the newbie horde dungeon |
| 03:17.31 | bluspacecow | what about it ? |
| 03:17.40 | bluspacecow | ..... |
| 03:17.40 | Twisol | Legorol: How can I access and modify the default quest log to do that? |
| 03:17.41 | WobWork | I've been in there pre-15 |
| 03:17.48 | bluspacecow | you umm dont need a summon for that place |
| 03:17.52 | WobWork | why not? |
| 03:17.55 | Shirik | I'm going to ask the prover if x < y == realpartof(x) < realpartof(y) |
| 03:17.57 | WobWork | I could be in tranquillen |
| 03:18.04 | bluspacecow | no under 15s should be that far from orgrimmar while questing |
| 03:18.10 | Seerah | be prepared to want to cry if you click this link: http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2009/nov/03/3-animal-shelter-dogs-died-lack-care-and-feeding/ This is one of the latest scandals in Memphis. |
| 03:18.11 | bluspacecow | IMHO |
| 03:18.11 | WobWork | ... hi blood elves! |
| 03:18.14 | AbsolutRayne | I need some Opinions on my UI |
| 03:18.18 | bluspacecow | hmmm |
| 03:18.19 | Legorol | Twisol: I can only give you pointers. Have a look at the frames and other objects defined in the default UI relating to the questlog. |
| 03:18.28 | Legorol | *default UI code |
| 03:18.41 | bluspacecow | what level is RFC ? |
| 03:18.47 | Twisol | Legorol: I couldn't find the quest log one; if it's there it's not named very well |
| 03:18.47 | Legorol | You can access them normally, by name, from Lua |
| 03:18.54 | AbsolutRayne | http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v442/SinOfDreams/WoWScrnShot_110309_145005.jpg Should I remove the KGPanels at the Top Left and Top right of my screen? I really cant decide if I like them there or not. |
| 03:18.56 | bluspacecow | what dungeon do newbie blood elfs normally do anyway ? |
| 03:18.57 | Twisol | in thaddons list I mean |
| 03:19.00 | Twisol | *the addons |
| 03:19.03 | Legorol | If it's not named, you can always start from a named element and traverse its children |
| 03:19.11 | Legorol | It's not in an addon |
| 03:19.15 | Twisol | Ah. |
| 03:19.15 | Legorol | It's in the base UI code |
| 03:19.20 | bluspacecow | Absolut : you need to add a cocktail umbrella in there @ some point |
| 03:19.22 | Seerah | AbsolutRayne: the top right looks fine. top left just meh |
| 03:19.28 | Twisol | Not like the achievements UI and such? Hmm. |
| 03:19.31 | Legorol | Twisol: do you know how to extract and examine the UI code? |
| 03:19.32 | bluspacecow | cocktail.umbrella |
| 03:19.38 | Twisol | Yeah, that's where I was looking. |
| 03:19.42 | bluspacecow | wow-compares ? |
| 03:19.49 | Twisol | Legorol: All of the folders prefixed with Blizzard_ |
| 03:19.51 | Legorol | by the sound of it, you were looking in the Blizzard AddOns, not the base UI code |
| 03:20.00 | Legorol | ok, you were not looking at the base code then :) |
| 03:20.03 | Twisol | Ah. |
| 03:20.08 | Legorol | the vast majority of the UI code is not in addons |
| 03:20.10 | Twisol | I'm new to addons *cough cough* |
| 03:20.17 | Twisol | hmm, alright |
| 03:20.20 | Seerah | ~addon kit |
| 03:20.21 | purl | it has been said that addon kit is Located at http://tinyurl.com/addonkit the addonkit is "The World of Warcraft User Interface Customization tool that allows users to tweak and customize the User Interface." |
| 03:20.24 | bluspacecow | the blizz addons are just hooks to that code right Legorel |
| 03:20.38 | Legorol | bluspacecow: yes and no |
| 03:20.51 | Legorol | they have genuine functionality that's not in the base code |
| 03:20.54 | WobWork | bluspacecow: RFC =P |
| 03:20.55 | bluspacecow | sometimes it is ? maybe on an alternate tuesday ? |
| 03:20.56 | Legorol | they are more or less like player addons |
| 03:21.27 | Legorol | basically, Blizz has developed the base UI code, then over time as they added new features, they started adding them as Blizz addons instead of modifying the base code |
| 03:21.33 | Legorol | it also makes the UI code a bit more modular |
| 03:21.43 | Legorol | but the majority of the code is still in one, big, core set of files |
| 03:21.45 | bluspacecow | oh i see |
| 03:21.45 | Twisol | interesting. |
| 03:21.59 | bluspacecow | wasn't there a few URLs for places that had the UI code online ? |
| 03:22.05 | bluspacecow | like wow compares etc etc |
| 03:22.10 | Legorol | the addon kit that Seerah linked lets you extract and examine both the blizz addons and the base UI code |
| 03:22.19 | Legorol | bluspacecow: yes |
| 03:22.26 | Legorol | but you can just extract it and look at it on your PC |
| 03:22.37 | Legorol | wow compares is mostly to look for changes in the code with new patches |
| 03:22.45 | bluspacecow | possibly better to do it your self as then you could do it for the PTR files too |
| 03:22.54 | Legorol | it's a bit unwieldy for looking at the whole of the current code |
| 03:22.59 | AbsolutRayne | Seerah: Yeah...the TL seems kind of off for some reason. >< I dont know It was a good idea when I made it lol |
| 03:23.14 | Seerah | hehe :) |
| 03:23.23 | Legorol | Twisol: hang on |
| 03:23.26 | Twisol | sure |
| 03:23.29 | Twisol | downloading the kit right now |
| 03:23.34 | Legorol | Twisol: you have been looking at the blizz addons, that means you ahve managed to extract them |
| 03:23.36 | Seerah | AbsolutRayne: it may look better if you had buff bars instead |
| 03:23.46 | Legorol | Twisol: in that case, you already must have had the addon kit |
| 03:23.50 | Twisol | Legorol - actually when I went into them I just saw .bop files |
| 03:23.57 | Twisol | er |
| 03:23.58 | Twisol | PUB |
| 03:24.01 | Legorol | ah ok so you haven't actually examined them |
| 03:24.04 | Twisol | right |
| 03:24.10 | Legorol | those folders in Interface/AddOns aren't UI code |
| 03:24.16 | AbsolutRayne | Seerah: Tried it, kinda meh |
| 03:24.16 | Legorol | they are just signature files |
| 03:24.19 | Twisol | none of the folders looked like a quest thing so I didn't pursue it |
| 03:24.21 | Twisol | ah |
| 03:24.30 | Seerah | AbsolutRayne: yeah, takes up more room that way... /shrug |
| 03:24.44 | Legorol | once you use the addon kit, you will be able to examine the actual code for each of those Blizz addons, plus the base UI code |
| 03:24.51 | Shirik | interesting, the theorem failed |
| 03:24.59 | Twisol | hmm, alright |
| 03:25.09 | Legorol | the addon kit is nothing more than a glorified unzipper :) it just pulls the files out of the MPQs and places them into a folder called "Blizzard Interface Data (enGB)" |
| 03:25.16 | Shirik | Iriel: http://wowi.pastey.net/127548 |
| 03:25.25 | Shirik | There must be something about how these operators react to complex numbers that we aren't aware of |
| 03:27.12 | Twisol | there we go |
| 03:27.15 | Twisol | all unzipped |
| 03:29.48 | kd3 | +POWER_TYPE_BLOOD_POWER = "Blood Power"; |
| 03:29.50 | kd3 | ? |
| 03:30.34 | bluspacecow | hmm is that new in the latest PTR build ? |
| 03:30.58 | Shirik | kd3: rawr |
| 03:31.02 | Shirik | vampires are the new class |
| 03:31.05 | kd3 | --Yes, consecutive string concatenation == bad for garbage collection. But the alternative is either extremely unslightly or localization unfriendly. (Also, this happens fairly rarely) |
| 03:31.17 | *** join/#wowuidev Matrix110 (i=Matrix11@ip-95-222-224-247.unitymediagroup.de) |
| 03:31.33 | kd3 | sighs |
| 03:31.46 | ScytheBlade1 | Devs sending messages in ga,e? |
| 03:31.56 | ScytheBlade1 | *game |
| 03:32.02 | Shirik | ? |
| 03:32.04 | ScytheBlade1 | curses this .zip container |
| 03:32.15 | Iriel | Shirik: I can't find any documentation describing the behavior of comparisons of complex numbers, common lisp apparently views it as illegal |
| 03:32.18 | kd3 | elseif ( arg6 == "DEV" ) then |
| 03:32.18 | kd3 | +--Add Blizzard Icon, this was sent by a Dev |
| 03:32.24 | ScytheBlade1 | o_o |
| 03:32.27 | ScytheBlade1 | Win |
| 03:32.38 | Shirik | Iriel: I should be fair and say that ACL2 does have some extensions of common lisp, and some features removed from common lisp |
| 03:32.55 | Shirik | that's probably why the guard is on by default |
| 03:33.01 | Shirik | the guard which throws an error, but can be turned off |
| 03:33.03 | bluspacecow | O_O |
| 03:33.24 | bluspacecow | oh great kd3 does this mean someone can fake that GM icon in an addon |
| 03:33.25 | Shirik | guards are used to prevent execution of something, but which should be otherwise considered to be valid execution paths for logic verification |
| 03:33.33 | bluspacecow | or am i being paranoid ? |
| 03:33.39 | kd3 | that gm icon's been there for a long time now |
| 03:34.21 | bluspacecow | oh |
| 03:34.34 | kd3 | just a new case in the "switch" statement |
| 03:35.21 | Twisol | ok, so... I have the quest log frame XML and Lua. I'm still struggling on how to change the visible text... |
| 03:35.38 | ScytheBlade1 | myTextString:SetText("hello") |
| 03:35.46 | Legorol | bluspacecow: you can only fake it for yourself on your end |
| 03:35.51 | kd3 | ^ |
| 03:35.55 | Legorol | you are free to do that, but... no point |
| 03:36.00 | Twisol | Scythe - it's in Blizzard's default quest log, I don't know how to get "myTextString'. |
| 03:36.22 | kd3 | twisol; that was an example. find out whatever string the ui is using and mess with it |
| 03:36.29 | ScytheBlade1 | What exactly are you trying to change? |
| 03:36.41 | Twisol | I want to figure out how to add a quest level to the left of the quest title. |
| 03:36.52 | kd3 | take a look at how ct_core does it? |
| 03:36.58 | kd3 | simplest example I can think of |
| 03:37.00 | ScytheBlade1 | Oh that'll be fun for you |
| 03:37.00 | Twisol | ct_core? |
| 03:37.11 | kd3 | ctmod.net |
| 03:37.23 | ScytheBlade1 | I can't remember offhand what the text strings are called, sorry |
| 03:37.31 | Iriel | Shirik basically whatever definition of comparison it's using there's got to be an X such that X <= X - 1 |
| 03:37.35 | bluspacecow | PTR spoiler : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_-3ja4X4fI |
| 03:37.44 | Iriel | And X > 0 |
| 03:37.53 | Iriel | Maybe you can ask it for one? |
| 03:38.03 | ScytheBlade1 | You'd have to either (1) dig through the UI source to find it, (2) find a reference to someone else doing it, (3) use the /framestack command and hope/guess, or (4) hope someone in here knows |
| 03:38.17 | Shirik | X <= X-1? |
| 03:38.18 | Twisol | ScytheBlade1: I was somewhat betting on 4. |
| 03:38.27 | Twisol | but I'm following a lead on 2 now, heh |
| 03:38.44 | kd3 | eesh. an 8th level to icecrown citadel |
| 03:38.51 | Iriel | Shirik: I /think/ so, i;m probably not stating it well |
| 03:38.55 | Shirik | It disagrees, with failure message "This simplifies to nil" |
| 03:39.05 | Iriel | Hm, then i'm stating it badly |
| 03:39.14 | ScytheBlade1 | Twisol: gonna be honest, you may be better off with (3) |
| 03:39.16 | Shirik | I asked it (<= X (- X 1)) |
| 03:39.26 | Twisol | what -is- /framestack? |
| 03:39.33 | ScytheBlade1 | If you run /framestack and mouse over a line of text in the quest log, what's the name of the frame that pops up? |
| 03:39.33 | Shirik | the stack of frames under the cursor |
| 03:39.36 | bluspacecow | lolz |
| 03:39.47 | ScytheBlade1 | A command that tells you what the mouse is over, layered down to the "base" |
| 03:40.00 | Shirik | again I should be more clear, Iriel. It doesn't prove things false, it just fails to prove them true. |
| 03:40.02 | Twisol | Oh how interesting! |
| 03:40.07 | ScytheBlade1 | So you can see the stack of frames your mouse is over |
| 03:40.11 | ScytheBlade1 | (and their names..) |
| 03:40.18 | Shirik | So just because it said my theorem for < x y is unprovable doesn't necessarily mean that it's false |
| 03:40.19 | Twisol | QuestLogHighlightFrame is highest |
| 03:40.23 | Shirik | (but it is likely for something that simple) |
| 03:40.43 | ScytheBlade1 | You're moused over the text you want to change, right? |
| 03:40.48 | Twisol | Yeah. |
| 03:40.57 | ScytheBlade1 | Do you see anything in that stack that has a number in it? |
| 03:41.04 | ScytheBlade1 | Like SomethingOrOtherRow4? |
| 03:41.11 | kd3 | oh geez; they added the NPC voiceovers this build |
| 03:41.21 | Twisol | Yes. I see how they're doing it. Quite interesting |
| 03:41.22 | kd3 | wonders how much has been posted on mmo-c already |
| 03:41.29 | Twisol | The highlight frame is just an overlay for the colored row. |
| 03:41.37 | Iriel | Shirik: Right, I'm trying to think of the condition where the implication fails, i.,e.. where X and X - 1 take THE SAME number of steps to evaluate, but X is > 0.. I wonder if imaginary comparison is symmetric or not in ACL2 |
| 03:41.39 | ScytheBlade1 | Add "Text" to the end of that name and I bet that you'll have the name of your text strings to change |
| 03:41.41 | Twisol | QuestLogScrollFrameButton## |
| 03:41.48 | Iriel | I mean complex comparison, not imaginary |
| 03:41.58 | ScytheBlade1 | So QuestLogScrollFrameButton2Text:SetText("test") |
| 03:42.08 | Twisol | Interesting. Will try from a macro. |
| 03:42.11 | Twisol | or /script |
| 03:42.16 | ScytheBlade1 | Give it a shot |
| 03:42.43 | ScytheBlade1 | The stock UI tends to follow that pattern |
| 03:42.50 | bluspacecow | kd3 : looking at that now ... only the NPC achievements new bosses and updated patch notes have been posted |
| 03:42.54 | ScytheBlade1 | I'd have to look it up, and I need to get to sleep |
| 03:43.32 | bluspacecow | <PROTECTED> |
| 03:43.33 | Twisol | Thanks a lot for the help, Scythe. |
| 03:43.46 | bluspacecow | O_O he resisted it ! |
| 03:43.47 | Shirik | Iriel: Symmetric? |
| 03:43.49 | ScytheBlade1 | Good luck. Keep asking, someone will probably help you out :) |
| 03:43.50 | ScytheBlade1 | afks |
| 03:43.55 | Shirik | You mean like x < y implies y >= x? |
| 03:44.28 | kd3 | oh geez. this is going to be good |
| 03:44.31 | Shirik | and be careful, "in acl2" doesn't mean much :) Like I said earlier, ACL2 doesn't specify what the rules are, only how it's run. The rules of logic are defined by the user (with some initial seeds) |
| 03:44.36 | Shadowed | whooo, support for SetTexCoord in |T textures it looks like! |
| 03:47.01 | Shirik | Iriel: http://wowi.pastey.net/127549 So if that's what you meant by "symmetric" then it's verified |
| 03:47.03 | Legorol | Twisol: you shouldn't append Text to the name of the buttons. |
| 03:47.19 | Legorol | Twisol: the object you need is QuestLogScrollFrameButtonX itself, buttons have SetText |
| 03:47.24 | Iriel | Shirik: To be honest I'm not sure what I meant now, I think I was going down a mental dead end |
| 03:47.29 | Legorol | calling QuestLogScrollFrameButton2:SetText("blah") for example will change the text |
| 03:47.30 | Shirik | :) |
| 03:47.36 | Twisol | Legorol - thanks! |
| 03:47.58 | Twisol | Worked! |
| 03:48.26 | Legorol | Twisol: if you want to check out the structure of an entry in the quest log, have a look in QuestLogFrame.xml, specifically at QuestLogTitleButtonTemplate |
| 03:48.52 | Legorol | it's a button (and buttons have a text), that has 3 children: Tag, GroupMates and Check |
| 03:49.03 | Shirik | There's something to be said for this failure, I think: http://wowi.pastey.net/127550 |
| 03:49.07 | Shirik | I'm just not sure what |
| 03:49.20 | Legorol | the children are used to add the (Daily)/(Raid) tags, the no. of party members that have the quest and a tick mark respectively |
| 03:49.30 | *** join/#wowuidev Kivnel (n=lenvik@23.213.233.220.static.exetel.com.au) |
| 03:49.40 | Shirik | (COMPLEX-RATIONALP x) means x is a complex number |
| 03:49.46 | Twisol | Aah. |
| 03:49.59 | Shirik | moreover that the number x, where x = a+bj, that b != 0 |
| 03:50.09 | Twisol | so lets see if I can get that level there... |
| 03:56.11 | kd3 | yay |
| 03:56.20 | kd3 | I live in the outskirts of the most toxic city in the US |
| 03:56.26 | Shirik | The failed subgoal is interesting, Iriel. (IMPLIES (AND (COMPLEX-RATIONALP X) (COMPLEX-RATIONALP Y) (< (REALPART X) (REALPART Y))) (< X Y)) |
| 03:56.28 | kd3 | hail atlanta! |
| 03:56.30 | Shirik | It can't prove that |
| 03:57.08 | Shirik | so that means there are some complex numbers X and Y where realpart x is less than realpart y, but x is not less than y |
| 03:57.20 | Iriel | I /think/ that's what I've been trying to describe, too, so that's kind of cool 8-) |
| 03:58.29 | Shirik | but what values of x and y I don't know :( |
| 04:07.03 | Shirik | Lol, Iriel, everything boils down to that: http://wowi.pastey.net/127551 |
| 04:07.09 | Shirik | Look at what it simplified my theorem to |
| 04:07.38 | Shirik | It all boils down to not being able to prove that for some reason |
| 04:07.50 | *** join/#wowuidev Esamynn|Away (n=nnnnnnch@WoWUIDev/WoWI/Featured/Esamynn) |
| 04:07.50 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v Esamynn|Away] by ChanServ |
| 04:08.42 | Shirik | I'll ask my professor I think |
| 04:08.46 | Shirik | he has a ton of experience with this tool |
| 04:09.15 | Iriel | I'm sure if you could just find documentation on how it evaluates complex comparisons we'dbe fine |
| 04:09.21 | Twisol | Hmm. I change the text to include the level, but all of the quests have ... at the end, as though there's not enough space to display the whole thing. Yet if I :SetWidth() to the value of :GetTextWidth(), it's really messes things up, throwing the tags across to the left side of the button and not helping with the ...'s. O_o |
| 04:11.57 | Shirik | http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/moore/acl2/v3-6/_lt_.html |
| 04:12.00 | Shirik | Iriel |
| 04:12.04 | Shirik | This function has the usual meaning on the rational numbers, but is extended to the complex rational numbers using the lexicographic order: first the real parts are compared, and if they are equal, then the imaginary parts are compared. |
| 04:12.22 | Shirik | It may simply be due to a lack of knowledge by the prover |
| 04:12.37 | Shirik | but something in the documentation should be known |
| 04:13.36 | Iriel | I think you might be right, given THAT definition. |
| 04:15.38 | DWSR | Does anyone know if Demonic Pact and Totem of Wrath stack? |
| 04:16.51 | Shirik | oh well, enough experimentation for tonight Iriel :) thanks for finding the problem with my function, that was the important part :) |
| 04:17.07 | Shirik | the rest of this was just out of curiosity |
| 04:17.39 | Shirik | The cool part is, and this is why I love ACL2: If we are right in that this theorem SHOULD be provable, then we can teach it if we can build the proof ourselves |
| 04:18.34 | Iriel | I'm not entirely convinced |
| 04:18.54 | Shirik | however, for something this simple, it should already know this |
| 04:19.01 | Shirik | so I'm fairly convinced it has a good reason for failing to prove it |
| 04:19.15 | Iriel | Let me know when/if you find out why |
| 04:19.18 | Shirik | I will :) |
| 04:19.36 | Iriel | It'll be good to know when robots take over the world |
| 04:20.41 | Shirik | lol |
| 04:21.00 | cog|away | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cM1JSFXnQpg&feature=player_embedded |
| 04:22.47 | *** join/#wowuidev mini_ (n=slip@cm1-141-78.reznet.csumb.edu) |
| 04:23.03 | Twisol | I got the quest level adder working! Thanks for all the help |
| 04:29.15 | cogwheel | "On the screen there is a proximity sensor and also an ambient light sensor. Both work magically to shut off the screen while youâre on a call, saving battery and preventing your face from triggering an on screen buttonOn the screen there is a proximity sensor and also an ambient light sensor. Both work magically to shut off the screen while youâre on a call, saving battery and preventing your face from triggering an on |
| 04:29.28 | cogwheel | gah double paste... sorry |
| 04:29.59 | Twisol | iPhone? |
| 04:30.08 | cogwheel | pfft as if :P |
| 04:30.12 | cogwheel | http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2009/11/03/motorola-droid-review/ |
| 04:30.16 | Twisol | Heheh. The iPhone does that too. |
| 04:30.38 | cogwheel | oh ... well never mind then... <.< |
| 04:30.46 | Twisol | ^_^ |
| 04:36.01 | *** join/#wowuidev simonw (n=simonw@207.46.92.18) |
| 04:36.26 | Twisol | uhh, is there any way to register to receive events belonging to another frame? |
| 04:37.15 | cogwheel | make a copy of its current handler and insert one of your own to call it |
| 04:37.32 | Twisol | mmmm, a decorator |
| 04:37.45 | cogwheel | or if you just want to get info and pass it along unchanged (required if you're doing this to ability buttons) you need to use frame:HookScript iirc |
| 04:38.06 | Twisol | I'm hijacking the Quest Log to show levels. ;) |
| 04:45.35 | *** join/#wowuidev Torhal (n=callahan@74-132-200-5.dhcp.insightbb.com) |
| 04:51.34 | WobWork | Shirik: so the reason it didn't work was due to <insert esoteric numbers here> ? |
| 04:51.44 | Shirik | hm? |
| 04:51.45 | *** join/#wowuidev Sesshu| (n=Sesshu@ip-62-17.travedsl.de) |
| 04:51.46 | Shirik | oh |
| 04:51.49 | Shirik | my original one? |
| 04:51.56 | Shirik | Honestly, I still think that should work |
| 04:52.15 | Shirik | Iriel and I have boiled it down to a fundamental problem, which I posed to my instructor for advice |
| 04:53.00 | Shirik | It refuses to prove that, for two numbers X and Y, if the real part of X is less than the real part of Y, then X < Y |
| 04:53.17 | Shirik | Why that is is because of a misunderstanding on our part, or a lack of knowledge by the prover |
| 04:53.19 | Shirik | Which it is, I don't know |
| 05:14.37 | Cairenn | hey guys? |
| 05:14.57 | *** join/#wowuidev Thrae (n=generalm@pool-71-179-187-128.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net) |
| 05:15.18 | Cairenn | just wanted to take a minute to introduce a new member to the channel, please welcome SimonW, he's basically the "head" of the Addon dev community in China |
| 05:15.47 | Twisol | Hellos. |
| 05:15.48 | cogwheel | simonw: heya =) |
| 05:15.54 | simonw | hi everyone |
| 05:16.05 | Shirik | Hi simonw! |
| 05:16.06 | simonw | nice to see you |
| 05:16.33 | Dolby | Hi ya simonw |
| 05:16.49 | simonw | I come from China's wow addon deveplor's communit |
| 05:17.03 | simonw | http://bbs.cwowaddon.com |
| 05:17.36 | Dolby | welcome to wowuidev :) |
| 05:18.34 | Iriel | Greetings simonw |
| 05:18.35 | simonw | I think most of our members here know a few things about China |
| 05:18.44 | Twisol | question... I'm not entirely understanding the difference between hooksecurefunc() and frame:HookScript(). Any chance someone could explain? |
| 05:19.42 | simonw | ha, Shirik, cogwheel, Iriel, I often see you name |
| 05:19.52 | Iriel | Twisol: One is for scripts (like OnUpdate) on frames, the other is for plain functions |
| 05:19.56 | Iriel | (like TargetUnit) |
| 05:20.11 | Iriel | simonw: I get around 8-) |
| 05:20.45 | Shirik | oops |
| 05:20.52 | Shirik | I think I'm getting further away |
| 05:20.58 | Shirik | It just produced a 3000-line failed proof |
| 05:21.41 | Twisol | Iriel: Hmm... so why does hooksecurefunc() take an optional table as a first parameter? |
| 05:21.48 | Shirik | for http://wowi.pastey.net/127552 |
| 05:21.53 | Twisol | wouldn't that kind of make it the same as HookScript? |
| 05:22.16 | Iriel | Twisol: for hooking METHODS (like AddText) |
| 05:22.27 | Twisol | mmmm |
| 05:23.49 | Shirik | Twisol: Actually, HookScript was added later I believe, and that's because hooksecurefunc cannot be used to hook scripts |
| 05:24.22 | Twisol | Er, explain? |
| 05:24.58 | Shirik | The only way to get the function associated with a script it to query GetScript(), but hooksecurefunc doesn't take the function object, it takes the name of it |
| 05:25.16 | Shirik | there is no way to access it by a name |
| 05:25.17 | Twisol | mm |
| 05:25.44 | Twisol | well |
| 05:25.53 | Iriel | Shirik is correct, HookScript did come later |
| 05:26.08 | Twisol | assuming it's a global function, you could iterate over _G and compare each value with the function to find a match |
| 05:26.16 | Twisol | but yeah |
| 05:26.18 | Shirik | you can't make that assumption :) |
| 05:26.21 | Twisol | I know ;) |
| 05:26.35 | Iriel | Even if it was, that doesn't work |
| 05:26.35 | Twisol | it's interesting |
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| 05:26.38 | Shirik | in fact, you can't at all |
| 05:26.39 | Twisol | Oh? |
| 05:26.43 | Iriel | because youd' hook the NAME, but not the original references to the function |
| 05:26.46 | Shirik | because chaning the global wouldn't change the script |
| 05:26.55 | Iriel | Script handlers are stored by function reference |
| 05:26.55 | Twisol | no, use the key, don't change its value |
| 05:27.03 | Shirik | unless it was that the script was calling the global, but even then, you wouldn't be hooking the script, just something the script calls |
| 05:27.28 | Shirik | hooksecurefunc replaces the original function, it can't modify it and keep the same reference |
| 05:28.18 | Twisol | well, it calls each hook in order, from what the docs say |
| 05:28.24 | Shirik | local addr = tostring(myfunction); hooksecurefunc("myfunction", function() end); assert(addr ~= tostring(myfunction)) |
| 05:29.13 | Ancu | Hello |
| 05:29.17 | Shirik | hi |
| 05:31.02 | Twisol | I used to play a MUD, heh, and I used a client called MUSHclient. It had a somewhat similar setup for plugins... though this is different enough to still be challenging... |
| 05:31.06 | *** join/#wowuidev Arrowmaster (i=arrow@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/ResponsibleForEverythingAndNothing/Arrowmaster) |
| 05:31.39 | Shirik | Taint is a confusing concept at first |
| 05:31.43 | Ancu | I used to use Moo for my muds |
| 05:31.48 | Shirik | Once you get it, it will seem second nature |
| 05:31.59 | Shirik | It's one of those things that just clicks |
| 05:32.08 | Twisol | Mm, it makes sense, but I can tell it can be a sticking point |
| 05:33.05 | Twisol | Do all addons share the same script space? |
| 05:33.20 | Shirik | yes |
| 05:33.34 | Twisol | Big difference from what I'm used to, then. |
| 05:33.55 | Shirik | This implies you need to invoke some level of preventative measures |
| 05:34.05 | Shirik | for example, you don't have the sanctity of your global namespace |
| 05:34.15 | Twisol | locals, do-end blocks, etc, yeah |
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| 05:35.33 | Twisol | I imagine it makes it easier to accidentally taint something that shouldn't be tainted, or overwrite something another addon wrote. |
| 05:36.39 | Shirik | Taint can be really strange. For example, we used to hook the SetItemRef() function, which is triggered whenever a user clicks an item link, et. |
| 05:36.40 | Shirik | etc. |
| 05:36.54 | Shirik | This caused the GM window to be unable to submit tickets |
| 05:37.04 | Twisol | That is strange. |
| 05:37.20 | Shirik | Quite logical after you go through the code, but sometimes these things can be hard to track down |
| 05:37.26 | Twisol | *nod* |
| 05:37.36 | Shirik | fact off the matter is, you should minimize touching Blizzard stuff as much as you can |
| 05:37.44 | Shirik | when you need to, think long and hard about it :) |
| 05:37.49 | Twisol | heheh |
| 05:38.11 | Twisol | I'm hooking a couple questlog functions so I can add the level |
| 05:38.19 | Twisol | not much of a way around that that I can see |
| 05:38.32 | Twisol | unless I set the colorblind option, but I don't exactly want to do that. |
| 05:38.53 | Ancu | What are you writing an addon to do? |
| 05:39.03 | Shirik | lol don't do that :) |
| 05:39.10 | Twisol | Why? :( |
| 05:39.12 | Seerah | simonw: I was on the phone earlier, so I missed your introduction. But hello, and welcome. :) |
| 05:39.17 | Shirik | no, the color blind option |
| 05:39.20 | Twisol | oh, haha. |
| 05:39.22 | Twisol | yeah. |
| 05:39.37 | Twisol | Ancu - writing a small addon to add the quest level to the quest line in the quest log |
| 05:39.46 | Shirik | the quest functions I don't have sufficient experience with to give a recommendation |
| 05:39.52 | Twisol | apparently already been done, but I needed something small to start with |
| 05:41.00 | Ancu | Oh, you new too? I am not sure what to start with... |
| 05:41.14 | Twisol | *nod* |
| 05:41.52 | Twisol | well, adding the level to the quest log is fairly easy, after a good bit of research and asking questions |
| 05:42.45 | Shirik | I don't think you can add the level without causing some taint |
| 05:42.50 | Twisol | oh? |
| 05:42.50 | Shirik | however, taint is not necessarily a bad thing |
| 05:43.06 | Shirik | in fact, it is only bad if it shows up during a call that's in a necessarily-secure context |
| 05:43.16 | Twisol | It would be tainted because I'm changing the quest label? |
| 05:43.22 | Shirik | right |
| 05:43.36 | Shirik | you have to modify how that frame works |
| 05:43.39 | Twisol | right |
| 05:43.49 | Shirik | and that can't be done with a post-hook |
| 05:44.06 | Twisol | ? |
| 05:44.16 | Twisol | But this is a post-hook |
| 05:44.21 | Shirik | huh? how? |
| 05:44.48 | Ancu | Mind if I ask if you had to check into other coding languages before you started? I dont want to relearn HTML to learn XML to code addons |
| 05:44.48 | Shirik | See that |
| 05:44.48 | Shirik | you just blew up the world |
| 05:45.07 | Twisol | XD |
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| 05:45.09 | Twisol | If it was a pre-hook I wouldn't be able to get the quest name. |
| 05:45.09 | Twisol | rather |
| 05:45.09 | Twisol | even if I did |
| 05:45.16 | Twisol | it would overwrite it |
| 05:45.16 | Ancu | ummmm |
| 05:45.20 | Twisol | all I'm using is hooksecurefunc() to hook QuestLog_Update |
| 05:45.28 | Ancu | what just happened to all of them... |
| 05:45.38 | Shirik | Ancu, it was a netsplit |
| 05:45.43 | Seerah | ahweemoweh ahweemoweh ahweemoweh ahweemoweh..... /me is jamming |
| 05:45.53 | Shirik | Twisol, but what do you do after that? |
| 05:45.56 | Twisol | Ancu - XML is dead simple. Review it for like five minutes and you'll be ready to go |
| 05:46.15 | Shirik | btw, HTML is not XML |
| 05:46.17 | Twisol | Shirik: http://wow.pastebin.com/dfbf2e1d |
| 05:46.20 | Twisol | no, it's based on SGML |
| 05:46.25 | Twisol | XHTML is based on XML |
| 05:47.02 | Shirik | huh, that's good |
| 05:47.06 | Shirik | I like that solution |
| 05:47.09 | Twisol | thanks |
| 05:47.18 | Shirik | There is a tiny, but probably unnoticable amount of taint generated |
| 05:47.28 | Twisol | only because I'm modifying the text, yeah |
| 05:47.52 | Twisol | but there are other ways to get the quest text, which are more likely to be used in secure code |
| 05:47.55 | Ancu | The sites I looked at say learn xhtml before xml, and html before xhtml. And I cant remember anything untill I need it for code |
| 05:48.04 | Twisol | hmmm |
| 05:48.06 | Twisol | sec, actually |
| 05:48.19 | Shirik | I don't think you can do better :) |
| 05:48.35 | Twisol | got an idea |
| 05:48.37 | Shirik | I disagree Ancu :) |
| 05:48.39 | Iriel | If you need XML, then avoid XHTML 8-) |
| 05:48.40 | *** join/#wowuidev Repo (n=supybot@repos.curseforge.net) |
| 05:48.42 | Shirik | XML is XML |
| 05:48.46 | Shirik | you don't need to know anything else |
| 05:48.46 | Iriel | If you need XHTML then do XHTML |
| 05:49.02 | Shirik | You won't even use the majority of XML in WoW addons |
| 05:49.04 | Dagmar | XML is stupidly simple when it comes down to it. |
| 05:49.09 | Dagmar | You'll be disappointed. |
| 05:49.19 | Twisol | This quest level addon is pure Lua. :) |
| 05:49.31 | Shirik | I always do pure Lua |
| 05:49.33 | Shirik | I hate XML :P |
| 05:49.42 | Twisol | I'm fine with XML, it's the UI design I'm bad at. |
| 05:49.47 | Twisol | I'm better at tools stuff. |
| 05:49.48 | Ancu | Okay, I have no idea what lua is. Other then code |
| 05:49.56 | Twisol | That's pretty much lua. |
| 05:50.01 | Twisol | A scripting language. |
| 05:50.06 | Seerah | Portuguese for moon |
| 05:50.10 | Twisol | And that! |
| 05:50.18 | Shirik | huggles Seerah |
| 05:50.23 | Seerah | huggles Shirik |
| 05:50.43 | Ancu | So do I need to study lua as well? |
| 05:50.56 | Twisol | Short answer, yes. |
| 05:50.59 | Seerah | aye |
| 05:51.00 | Shirik | You probably won't be able to make a (useful) addon without Lua |
| 05:51.01 | Seerah | ~pil |
| 05:51.07 | purl | Programming in Lua, a book written by the authors of the Lua programming language. The first edition is available free online at http://www.lua.org/pil and covers Lua 5.0. The second edition is available in print from most online bookstores, and covers Lua 5.1. |
| 05:51.07 | Twisol | But it's a nice and simple language. |
| 05:51.07 | Shirik | You can do it without XML |
| 05:51.40 | Twisol | lua> print("Ancu") |
| 05:51.41 | lua_bot | Twisol: Ancu |
| 05:51.42 | Seerah | though I recommend http://lua-users.org/wiki/TutorialDirectory |
| 05:51.49 | Twisol | that was a line of Lua. Quite simple, no? |
| 05:52.00 | Twisol | ignoring the lua> prefix, that's to tell the bot to run it |
| 05:52.30 | Shirik | quite simple, heh |
| 05:52.34 | Shirik | is this simple? |
| 05:52.34 | Seerah | lua> local function printstuff(stuff) print(stuff) end printstuff("hello!") |
| 05:52.34 | lua_bot | Seerah: hello! |
| 05:53.01 | Ancu | lua>print("But I need to know how to create variables") |
| 05:53.01 | lua_bot | Ancu: But I need to know how to create variables |
| 05:53.16 | Seerah | http://lua-users.org/wiki/TutorialDirectory |
| 05:53.25 | Twisol | lua> x = 10; print(x) |
| 05:53.26 | lua_bot | Twisol: 10 |
| 05:53.30 | Shirik | batbot: local a = 1; debug.setmetatable(a, {__tostring = function(n) if n==2 then return "One on a bun" end end}); return 1+1; |
| 05:53.35 | Twisol | but yes, do read the tutorials |
| 05:53.37 | Shirik | !lua local a = 1; debug.setmetatable(a, {__tostring = function(n) if n==2 then return "One on a bun" end end}); return 1+1; |
| 05:53.37 | batbot | Shirik: > One on a bun |
| 05:53.43 | Shirik | 1+1 = One on a bun |
| 05:53.55 | Seerah | no, it's 2 |
| 05:54.02 | Shirik | Obviously not |
| 05:54.03 | Seerah | fail |
| 05:54.09 | *** join/#wowuidev Thunder_Child (n=TC@WoWUIDev/PITA/TC) |
| 05:54.15 | Twisol | Don't get confused by the 'return 1+1' there, it's a shortcut for the bot. It prints out whatever is returned automatically. |
| 05:54.28 | Shirik | Don't try to understand my line |
| 05:54.31 | Twisol | ^ |
| 05:54.38 | Shirik | That is confusing even for an experienced Lua developer :P |
| 05:54.45 | Seerah | he's just flexing his code prowess |
| 05:54.49 | Twisol | I'm left wondering why you're setting a metatable to a number. |
| 05:54.53 | Twisol | That affects all numbers. :( |
| 05:55.00 | Shirik | I was careful only to affect 2 |
| 05:55.23 | Twisol | sort of - you're not forwarding it to the old __tostring, if there is one |
| 05:55.26 | Twisol | but this is a nit :D |
| 05:55.32 | Shirik | yeah um |
| 05:55.35 | Shirik | there isn't one |
| 05:55.41 | Twisol | lua> return 2; |
| 05:55.42 | lua_bot | Twisol: 2 |
| 05:55.43 | Shirik | and I got to that point and couldn't figure out how to do it properly |
| 05:55.46 | Twisol | lua> local a = 1; debug.setmetatable(a, {__tostring = function(n) if n==2 then return "One on a bun" end end}); return 1; |
| 05:55.46 | lua_bot | Twisol: luabot:1: attempt to index global 'debug' (a nil value) |
| 05:55.55 | Twisol | ohh |
| 05:55.58 | Twisol | you used a different bot |
| 05:56.07 | Seerah | he used batbot |
| 05:56.09 | Twisol | !lua local a = 1; debug.setmetatable(a, {__tostring = function(n) if n==2 then return "One on a bun" end end}); return 1; |
| 05:56.09 | batbot | Twisol: > tostring did not return string for return value 1 |
| 05:56.11 | Twisol | see? |
| 05:56.15 | Twisol | there IS one by default |
| 05:56.16 | Shirik | Yeah I know |
| 05:56.20 | Twisol | and you overwrote it. ^_^ |
| 05:56.26 | Shirik | no there isn't :P |
| 05:56.29 | Twisol | yes there is |
| 05:56.31 | Twisol | see what I did? |
| 05:56.36 | Shirik | You returned nil |
| 05:56.38 | Twisol | no |
| 05:56.40 | Twisol | I returned 1 |
| 05:56.41 | Twisol | se the line |
| 05:56.43 | Twisol | *see |
| 05:56.44 | Seerah | ooooh batrick's gonna get you! |
| 05:56.46 | Shirik | no, the tostring() returned nil |
| 05:56.54 | Shirik | well, it returned nothing |
| 05:56.55 | Twisol | right, because you have an if n == 2 |
| 05:56.57 | Twisol | right |
| 05:57.03 | Shirik | But that's not what it's supposed to do |
| 05:57.06 | Shirik | it's supposed to return "1" |
| 05:57.09 | Twisol | right |
| 05:57.10 | Twisol | and it didn't. |
| 05:57.11 | Shirik | but there is no way to access that operation |
| 05:57.13 | Twisol | yes there is |
| 05:57.16 | Twisol | sec |
| 05:57.22 | Shirik | there is no "default __tostring" |
| 05:57.41 | Shirik | lua> local a = 1; return getmetatable(a).__tostring |
| 05:57.41 | lua_bot | Shirik: luabot:1: attempt to index a nil value |
| 05:57.44 | Shirik | er |
| 05:57.48 | Shirik | ok, there's no default metatable at all |
| 05:58.06 | Twisol | pity, that was my idea |
| 05:58.07 | Shirik | tostring just has defined functionality for numbers |
| 05:58.24 | Shirik | attempting to call tostring would result in an infinite recursion |
| 05:58.27 | Twisol | hmm. |
| 05:58.31 | Twisol | yes. |
| 05:58.35 | Shirik | This is why functions like rawget and rawset exist |
| 05:58.38 | Shirik | but there is no rawtostring |
| 05:58.38 | Twisol | mhm |
| 05:58.41 | Twisol | well |
| 05:58.44 | Shirik | That would be an interesting proposal to the Lua team though |
| 05:58.44 | Twisol | yeah >_< |
| 05:59.15 | Shirik | I thought about an alternative mechanism |
| 05:59.24 | Shirik | but I think this effectively calls tostring |
| 05:59.35 | Shirik | !lua local a = 1; debug.setmetatable(a, {__tostring = function(n) if n==2 then return "One on a bun" else return ""..n end end}); return 1; |
| 05:59.35 | batbot | Shirik: > 1 |
| 05:59.43 | Shirik | oh |
| 05:59.45 | Shirik | nice |
| 05:59.46 | Twisol | Nice! |
| 05:59.56 | Twisol | That does work :) |
| 06:00.18 | Shirik | !lua local a = 1; debug.setmetatable(a, {__tostring = function(n) if n==2 then return "One on a bun" else return ""..n end end}); return ("%q"):format(tostring(1)); |
| 06:00.18 | batbot | Shirik: > "1" |
| 06:00.29 | Ancu | lua>print(1/3) |
| 06:00.29 | lua_bot | Ancu: 0.33333333333333 |
| 06:00.44 | Ancu | so does it cut off, or does it eventualy round? |
| 06:00.52 | Shirik | yes |
| 06:00.53 | Twisol | there's only so much precision you can get |
| 06:01.05 | Ancu | Yes wich |
| 06:01.11 | Ancu | round or cutoff |
| 06:01.14 | Shirik | yes |
| 06:01.17 | Twisol | XD |
| 06:01.19 | Twisol | hard to tell |
| 06:01.29 | Twisol | it loses precision, meaning the digits at the end are more likely to be erroneous |
| 06:01.31 | Shirik | IEEE does not define the answer to that question |
| 06:01.49 | Ancu | Odd |
| 06:02.00 | Twisol | to have infinite precision, you'd need infinite bits |
| 06:02.01 | Shirik | All you know is that there is a level of precision |
| 06:02.01 | Twisol | :) |
| 06:02.12 | Shirik | It's also important to realize some other facts |
| 06:02.19 | Shirik | No computer can represent 0.1 exactly |
| 06:02.27 | Shirik | Just because you can doesn't mean a computer can |
| 06:02.42 | Shirik | To a computer, 0.1 is a repeating decimal just like 1/3 is to you |
| 06:02.56 | Twisol | It has to do with the science of bases, base 2 and base 10 in particular. |
| 06:03.17 | Shirik | in practice, this will rarely matter |
| 06:03.19 | Ancu | Nother question. x=1 sets x to 1. Is x==1 a test? |
| 06:03.22 | Shirik | except when you try to compare numbers |
| 06:03.23 | Twisol | Yes. |
| 06:03.31 | Twisol | a boolean operator |
| 06:03.40 | Twisol | it returns the result of said test - true or false |
| 06:03.40 | Ancu | kk, just checking |
| 06:04.19 | Shirik | For example |
| 06:04.20 | Ancu | lua>x=1;print(x==1) |
| 06:04.20 | lua_bot | Ancu: true |
| 06:04.22 | Shirik | lua> 0.1*3 == 3/10 |
| 06:04.22 | lua_bot | Shirik: false |
| 06:04.34 | Shirik | lua> 0.1*3 - 3/10 |
| 06:04.35 | lua_bot | Shirik: 5.5511151231258e-17 |
| 06:04.37 | Ancu | 0_o |
| 06:04.43 | Twisol | lua> 3/10 |
| 06:04.43 | lua_bot | Twisol: 0.3 |
| 06:04.47 | Twisol | lua> 0.1*3 |
| 06:04.48 | lua_bot | Twisol: 0.3 |
| 06:04.51 | Twisol | intriguing, no? |
| 06:05.26 | Twisol | Hummmm. |
| 06:05.42 | Twisol | This makes me curious. Is it possible to represent 1/3 finitely in another base? |
| 06:06.23 | Iriel | Base 3? 8-) |
| 06:06.30 | Twisol | Heheh. |
| 06:06.33 | Iriel | 0.1 |
| 06:08.04 | Shirik | There is a difference in how it cut off |
| 06:08.05 | Ancu | the hell? realy? |
| 06:08.05 | Shirik | a difference of approximately 5.5 x 10^-17 |
| 06:08.05 | Shirik | but that's enough to make them not equal |
| 06:08.06 | Shirik | But in most situations this won't come up |
| 06:08.06 | Shirik | just keep it in the back of your head |
| 06:08.06 | Shirik | I intentionally chose that example |
| 06:08.10 | Ancu | thats nice to know. Untill resolved, 3/10 is not equivilant to 0.1*3. So I should make sure that all equations resolve before comparing them |
| 06:08.10 | Shirik | hm? |
| 06:08.10 | Shirik | They're never equivalent |
| 06:08.10 | Shirik | it's because of the rounding error |
| 06:08.10 | Shirik | They are very close but not calculated the same way |
| 06:08.10 | Ancu | lua>x=0.1*3;y=3/10;print(x==y) |
| 06:08.10 | lua_bot | Ancu: false |
| 06:08.42 | Shirik | lua>x=0.1*3;y=3/10;print(x, y, x==y) |
| 06:08.43 | lua_bot | Shirik: 0.3, 0.3, false |
| 06:08.51 | Shirik | The problem is that Lua is cheating you out of some information |
| 06:08.58 | Shirik | when you print x and y, it chops off the ends |
| 06:08.58 | Ancu | So if posible, avoid fractions |
| 06:09.00 | Twisol | What you want to do is check if it's equal within a certain radius. |
| 06:09.19 | Shirik | those are closer to 0.30000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000055 |
| 06:09.24 | Shirik | or something |
| 06:09.46 | Ancu | lol, is this true in PHP as well? |
| 06:09.46 | Twisol | lua> x = 0.1*3; y = 3/10; return math.abs(x-y) < 0.2 |
| 06:09.47 | lua_bot | Twisol: true |
| 06:09.48 | Shirik | lua> print(0.1*3 - 0.3) |
| 06:09.49 | lua_bot | Shirik: 5.5511151231258e-17 |
| 06:09.49 | Twisol | see? |
| 06:09.52 | Shirik | See that? |
| 06:09.58 | Shirik | Now you can see those numbers way at the end |
| 06:10.01 | Twisol | take the absolute value of the difference to see how different they are |
| 06:10.04 | Shirik | lua> print(3/10 - 0.3) |
| 06:10.04 | lua_bot | Shirik: 0 |
| 06:10.08 | Shirik | And now you see why |
| 06:10.09 | Twisol | if they're not different enough, pretend they're the same |
| 06:10.13 | Shirik | one is 0.3 exactly, and one is not quite |
| 06:10.22 | Shirik | and yes, Ancu, this is true across just about every programming language |
| 06:10.32 | Shirik | EVERY programming language that represents numbers in IEEE floating point representation |
| 06:10.53 | Ancu | Well I hope I never run into this |
| 06:10.54 | Shirik | I think Matlab gets away with this |
| 06:10.58 | Shirik | I should test it |
| 06:11.08 | Twisol | Maybe it uses fixed-point. |
| 06:11.37 | Shirik | My theorem prover wouldn't have a problem :) |
| 06:11.42 | Twisol | hehe |
| 06:11.44 | Shirik | It uses fractions |
| 06:12.00 | Shirik | (thus, there are no irrational numbers) |
| 06:12.24 | Twisol | if you represent numbers as a combination of numerator and denominator, then yeah, it'll be accurate |
| 06:12.28 | Seerah | lua> print(math.modf(0.1*3)) |
| 06:12.28 | lua_bot | Seerah: 0, 0.3 |
| 06:12.30 | Shirik | nope, matlab says that's false too |
| 06:12.36 | Seerah | oh, duh |
| 06:12.46 | Twisol | Hahah. |
| 06:13.18 | Seerah | lua> print(math.modf((0.1*3)*10)) |
| 06:13.18 | lua_bot | Seerah: 3, 4.4408920985006e-16 |
| 06:13.45 | Shirik | This is what my theorem prover spits out |
| 06:13.52 | Seerah | odd that that one's 4.44 instead of 5.55 |
| 06:13.58 | Twisol | mmhm |
| 06:14.02 | Shirik | http://wowi.pastey.net/127553 |
| 06:14.08 | Ancu | lua>x="ME";y="YOU";print('This is ".x.", using".y) |
| 06:14.08 | lua_bot | Ancu: luabot:1: unfinished string near '<eof>' |
| 06:14.09 | Shirik | However, if you do it the way it wants |
| 06:14.32 | Ancu | lua>x="ME";y="YOU";print('This is ".x.", using".y); |
| 06:14.32 | lua_bot | Ancu: luabot:1: unfinished string near '<eof>' |
| 06:14.44 | Shirik | ACL2 >(EQUAL (* 1/10 3) 3/10) |
| 06:14.44 | Shirik | T |
| 06:14.45 | Ancu | What am I doing wrong? |
| 06:14.48 | Shirik | That's the only way to run that test |
| 06:15.03 | Shirik | Ancu: You have two problems. First is the single quote should be a double quote |
| 06:15.07 | Shirik | Second is concatenation is .. not . |
| 06:15.38 | Ancu | I dont understand the second point |
| 06:15.48 | Shirik | You wrote . x . |
| 06:15.50 | Shirik | should be .. x .. |
| 06:15.54 | Shirik | and .. y |
| 06:15.54 | Seerah | lua>x="ME" y="YOU" print("This is "..x..", using "..y) |
| 06:15.54 | lua_bot | Seerah: This is ME, using YOU |
| 06:16.05 | Shirik | uses Seerah |
| 06:16.10 | Seerah | :P |
| 06:16.22 | Ancu | lua>x="ME";y="YOU";print("This is "..x..", using"..y); |
| 06:16.22 | lua_bot | Ancu: This is ME, usingYOU |
| 06:16.23 | Shirik | btw Ancu, take a look at http://wowi.pastey.net/127553 |
| 06:16.30 | Shirik | I accidentally came across something interesting |
| 06:16.34 | Shirik | Notice the error |
| 06:16.37 | Seerah | and semi-colons are unnecessary in Lua (some people just use them for readability or out of habit - really, they do nothing) |
| 06:16.39 | Shirik | It says it refuses to accept 0.1, why? |
| 06:16.54 | Shirik | Look at what it becomes: 0.10000000000000001 |
| 06:17.00 | Shirik | Because 0.1 is impossible to represent in a computer |
| 06:18.28 | Ancu | wow |
| 06:18.38 | Ancu | that gives me a headache |
| 06:18.57 | Ancu | so as I said, try not to use decimals |
| 06:19.08 | Seerah | fraction |
| 06:19.09 | Seerah | *s |
| 06:21.22 | Ancu | !> or >!? |
| 06:21.45 | Ancu | Wait, its ~ not ! right? |
| 06:22.11 | Seerah | lua> print( true ~= false ) |
| 06:22.11 | lua_bot | Seerah: true |
| 06:22.47 | Dagmar | This is kinda nice watchin' Dragon Age: Origins just come down the pipe at 1.5MB/s without any screwing around |
| 06:23.18 | Seerah | oh yeah, that came out today |
| 06:24.21 | Ancu | lua>y={z=1 x=2 c=3} print y |
| 06:24.21 | lua_bot | Ancu: luabot:1: '}' expected near 'x' |
| 06:24.38 | Ancu | lua>y={z=1 x=2 c=3} print( y) |
| 06:24.38 | lua_bot | Ancu: luabot:1: '}' expected near 'x' |
| 06:24.55 | Shirik | Has anyone been following this thread on lua-l about interned strings somehow being harmful? |
| 06:24.58 | Seerah | you need commas between each table entry |
| 06:25.25 | Ancu | lua>y={z=1, x=2, c=3} print( y) |
| 06:25.33 | lua_bot | Ancu: table: 0x852bed8 |
| 06:25.47 | Seerah | also, here's a web lua interpreter: http://wowprogramming.com/utils/weblua |
| 06:25.57 | Ancu | Thanks |
| 06:26.41 | Ancu | how do I use it? |
| 06:27.00 | Shirik | same way you've been using the bot |
| 06:27.02 | Seerah | instead of typing lua> just enter what you want at the bottom of the window next to the > |
| 06:27.05 | Shirik | I think it's the same code |
| 06:27.12 | Shirik | (relatively) |
| 06:27.32 | Seerah | iirc, it doesn't have all of the wow shortcuts for some of the libraries |
| 06:27.44 | Ancu | okay, so what does 0x87482e0 mean? |
| 06:27.56 | Seerah | that's a reference to your table used by the lua engine |
| 06:28.11 | Ancu | How is it translating things to come up with that resutl |
| 06:28.12 | Seerah | it's "identifier" if you will |
| 06:28.26 | Ancu | I dont understand |
| 06:28.41 | Seerah | it's not really anything you can use. It's just the internal reference |
| 06:29.03 | Ancu | Okay, so its nothing usefull then |
| 06:29.16 | Shirik | To be specific, it's the memory location at which it is stored |
| 06:29.25 | Seerah | and that :) |
| 06:29.26 | Shirik | however, yes, it is not of use to use |
| 06:29.32 | Shirik | of use to you* |
| 06:29.43 | Shirik | It was very much of use to me but not getting into that right now ^_^ |
| 06:29.51 | Seerah | you refer to your table using the variable you assign to it |
| 06:29.52 | Shirik | and some people use it to identify functions with multiple names |
| 06:30.16 | Dagmar | Those people need help. |
| 06:32.14 | Ancu | Wow, so in lua you end a function with the word end. Okay. My vauge memories from my C training are kicking in. I once programed yatzee in c |
| 06:32.22 | Seerah | hehe |
| 06:32.57 | stuf | the end termination reminds me of pascal |
| 06:33.36 | Dagmar | Lots of languages use an explicit block terminator. |
| 06:34.02 | Shirik | Lisp is comprised only of block terminators |
| 06:34.18 | Shirik | If you actually just slam the ( and ) keys you will produce valid Lisp |
| 06:34.30 | Dagmar | parentheses know everything |
| 06:34.33 | stuf | a lolcode parser for lua would be sweet |
| 06:34.39 | stuf | i'd like to make wow addons with lolcode |
| 06:34.48 | *** join/#wowuidev Doow (n=Miranda@unaffiliated/doow) |
| 06:34.49 | Shirik | it was considered a while ago |
| 06:34.53 | Shirik | I'm not sure if anyone ever did |
| 06:34.53 | stuf | :[ |
| 06:35.00 | Shirik | I think someone was going to |
| 06:35.14 | Seerah | http://lolcode.com/implementations/lua-translator |
| 06:35.29 | Dagmar | I was going to say, yes there's a lolcode parser in lua |
| 06:35.41 | Shirik | I've been working on a WoW-compatible Lua VM in Lua |
| 06:35.42 | Dagmar | I was actually arguing about some of the features of that languages |
| 06:35.44 | Dagmar | er language |
| 06:36.01 | Dagmar | I still think DO NOT WANT should be the explicit destructor |
| 06:36.03 | Shirik | I did for a while too, then I determined too many programmers were on the language to maintain the spirit of the language |
| 06:36.13 | Shirik | I can't stand they ratified "VISIBLE" as print |
| 06:36.29 | Dagmar | I think some of them don't understand lolcats as well as they think they do |
| 06:36.35 | Seerah | oooh, look what I found - http://www.facebook.com/lolcode |
| 06:37.05 | Dagmar | In the distant future, lolcat will be recognized as the first _truly_ international language |
| 06:37.30 | Shirik | there was something else I argued too |
| 06:37.32 | Shirik | I forget what it was |
| 06:37.39 | Shirik | when they refused to agree with me, I gave up on the language :P |
| 06:37.51 | Seerah | I'll tell you what, though - I feel better about the US (or at least local) school systems when my students try to read the lolcat stuff in my studio with proper english |
| 06:37.59 | Shirik | Arguments tended to be "but this is easier to parse" |
| 06:38.05 | Shirik | Instead of "this sound more lolcat-ish" |
| 06:40.22 | Ancu | I like dynamic typeing. Make my life easier |
| 06:40.30 | Shirik | I don't |
| 06:40.34 | Shirik | I don't even like C's typing |
| 06:40.37 | Shirik | it's still too lose |
| 06:40.38 | Shirik | loose* |
| 06:41.41 | Shirik | Oh, this void* is actually a int*? ok. Oh wait, you need this double* to be an int**? Ok npnp. Oh and now it's an int? Yup |
| 06:42.12 | Shirik | C++ won't let you do any of that without using keywords that throw up red flags all over the place |
| 06:42.45 | Ancu | meh |
| 06:43.02 | Dagmar | int on a stick |
| 06:43.11 | Dagmar | That's the new type everyone needs. |
| 06:46.29 | Fisker | slaps Shirik around a bit with a large trout |
| 06:47.57 | Ancu | Okay, sleep is falling on me |
| 06:48.01 | Ancu | see alls lator |
| 06:48.18 | Shirik | slaps Fisker around a bit with a large Dagmar |
| 06:50.19 | Seerah | I wants one! http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/news/2009/october/peg.jpg |
| 06:51.16 | Seerah | night all |
| 06:51.30 | *** part/#wowuidev Seerah (n=Ryan@c-76-107-191-65.hsd1.tn.comcast.net) |
| 06:56.58 | Fisker | slaps Shirik around a bit with a large trout |
| 06:57.57 | Fisker | Lay on Hands is now affected by Forbearance and can now be cast on self again - Heals a friendly target for an amount equal to the Paladin's maximum health and restores 1950 of their mana. Once healed, the target cannot be targeted by Divine Shield, Divine Protection, Hand of Protection, or Lay on Hands again for 2 min |
| 06:58.03 | Fisker | MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN |
| 06:58.08 | Fisker | i'm not gonna be part of your system |
| 06:58.40 | Fisker | Meeting Stones: To use any Meeting Stone, it is only required that the characterâs minimum level be 15. There is no maximum character level requirement for any Meeting Stone. |
| 06:58.41 | Fisker | :3 |
| 06:58.46 | Fisker | need meeting stone in dalaran :P |
| 06:59.05 | Fisker | Divine Intervention: Cooldown on this ability has been reduced from 20 minutes to 10 minutes. Cannot be used in Arenas. <-yay almost a per-combat no durability loss |
| 07:00.47 | Thunder_Child | QQ more Fisker |
| 07:02.27 | Shirik | Lay on Hands couldn't be cast on self? |
| 07:02.45 | Thunder_Child | it was an option in 3.3 |
| 07:03.00 | Fisker | option? |
| 07:03.08 | Thunder_Child | s/option/change/ |
| 07:03.14 | Thunder_Child | a* |
| 07:03.25 | Shirik | failure @ english |
| 07:03.36 | Thunder_Child | eg. they reversed it due to huge QQ'ing on teh forums |
| 07:03.41 | Shirik | of course |
| 07:03.44 | Dagmar | Hah. That's rich, lay of hands on yourself. |
| 07:03.45 | Shirik | because Blizzard hates paladins |
| 07:03.47 | Shirik | didn't you know that? |
| 07:03.51 | Fisker | ^^ |
| 07:03.59 | Dagmar | Masturbation has never been an effective healing technique. |
| 07:04.14 | Shirik | Actually some Doctors believe it is healthy to a point |
| 07:04.15 | Fisker | actually it has |
| 07:04.27 | Fisker | Masturbation = painkillers |
| 07:04.29 | Fisker | baww |
| 07:07.12 | Dagmar | Yes, but how likely is it to wind up being used in a video game. |
| 07:07.53 | Shirik | well |
| 07:07.58 | Shirik | Blizzard has often been innovative |
| 07:09.09 | Fisker | i'm disappoint |
| 07:09.16 | Fisker | Blizzard moved the in-map quest tracker |
| 07:09.17 | Fisker | jerks |
| 07:11.10 | Dagmar | What do you want, a soul path to follow? |
| 07:11.43 | Fisker | soul path? |
| 07:11.51 | *** join/#wowuidev Ancu (n=c@ppp23.pm3-9.man-ch.nh.localnet.com) |
| 07:12.03 | Shirik | sounds like something from soul calibur |
| 07:13.14 | Dagmar | EQ II actually. |
| 07:13.36 | Dagmar | If you were a COMPLETE moron, they had a thing that made a glowing path in the air that you just followed to your destination. |
| 07:13.53 | Dagmar | Only the thickest of mentally disabled players could fail with it. |
| 07:17.43 | Shirik | lol |
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| 07:20.00 | Antiarc | http://i.imgur.com/UKZB1.jpg |
| 07:20.49 | Dagmar | rofl |
| 07:22.53 | Shirik | nice |
| 07:23.14 | Fisker | photoshopped Antiarc |
| 07:23.33 | Shirik | yes thank you Fisker |
| 07:23.35 | Shirik | how could you tell? |
| 07:24.07 | Fisker | the pixels |
| 07:24.08 | Fisker | the car on the picture is blue |
| 07:24.08 | Fisker | but the color on the following images are red |
| 07:24.28 | Fisker | and he would've gotten away with it if it wasn't for those pesky kids |
| 07:24.37 | Shirik | and their dog |
| 07:24.39 | Shirik | Fisker |
| 07:25.13 | Fisker | i don't have a dog |
| 07:28.00 | robotusch | throws kittens at Fusker |
| 07:28.14 | Fisker | i have sufficient kittens |
| 07:28.36 | robotusch | :< |
| 07:28.43 | robotusch | One can never has too many kittens |
| 07:28.54 | Cairenn | ^^ |
| 07:29.02 | Fisker | it's like crazy cat lady down here |
| 07:29.06 | robotusch | anyway |
| 07:29.18 | robotusch | let me be the first to yell "GOOOOOOOD TUUUUR HJEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEMM" |
| 07:30.10 | Fisker | :E? |
| 07:30.14 | robotusch | Irakerne |
| 07:30.27 | robotusch | De fløj lige en ny ladning hjem :D |
| 07:31.07 | mitch0 | didum |
| 07:31.54 | Fisker | old |
| 07:34.20 | mitch0 | no u! |
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| 08:07.43 | Fisker | nice Ackis |
| 08:09.45 | *** join/#wowuidev Wobin (n=Wobin@203-158-60-123.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
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| 08:18.17 | Wobin | http://yepyep.gibbs12.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/facebook.png |
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| 08:53.05 | Kalroth | Where's Fisker?! this link reminded me of him: http://twitter.com/big_ben_clock |
| 08:54.45 | Cairenn | lol |
| 08:56.30 | Fisker | slaps Kalroth around a bit with a large trout |
| 09:02.25 | Wobin | Cairenn, seen today's TwoLumps? |
| 09:02.29 | Cairenn | nope |
| 09:02.37 | Cairenn | linkage? |
| 09:02.45 | Wobin | http://twolumps.net/ |
| 09:03.08 | Cairenn | ROFL |
| 09:04.07 | robotusch | :D |
| 09:11.28 | mitch0 | I don't get this twitter thing |
| 09:11.37 | mitch0 | it's like full of fail |
| 09:11.49 | Antiarc | Twitter's fine if you find the right uses for it |
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| 09:13.56 | Arrowmaster | after watching V from last night, im trying to think of what other shows or movies that ive seen the original of and then theyve done a remake of it, all i can come up with is knight rider and that wasnt really a remake since they both happened in the same timeline just 20+ years apart |
| 09:15.05 | Antiarc | BSG? |
| 09:15.15 | Arrowmaster | never saw the original |
| 09:17.01 | Kalroth | charlie's angels |
| 09:17.21 | Arrowmaster | lets see BSG was late 70s, early 80s is where most older stuff ive seen is from even though i was born in mid 80s |
| 09:17.48 | Arrowmaster | Kalroth: nope |
| 09:18.00 | Kalroth | oh mid 80s |
| 09:18.05 | Kalroth | you're still a kid then |
| 09:18.31 | Kalroth | miami vice? |
| 09:18.55 | Arrowmaster | i was born in 86 although i do own the entire series of knight rider, macgyver, and V on dvd |
| 09:19.07 | Kalroth | 21 jump street (I bet Antiarc remembers this one!) |
| 09:19.17 | Arrowmaster | still need A-team |
| 09:19.25 | Kalroth | that is being remade too |
| 09:20.37 | Antiarc | I didn't get anything except PBS until I was 13 |
| 09:20.55 | Antiarc | I was born in '83, but pretty much don't have any recollection of any TV before mid-90s |
| 09:21.01 | Arrowmaster | i stayed up watching late night tv on the weekends |
| 09:21.02 | Kalroth | geez |
| 09:21.32 | Arrowmaster | wonder if i can find Fx |
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| 09:55.16 | jnwhiteh | http://apidiff.pastey.net/127558 |
| 09:56.55 | Antiarc | EnableMultiTouch :O |
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| 09:59.13 | Fisker | yay jnwhiteh |
| 09:59.20 | Fisker | erectile disfunctions aren't my fault |
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| 10:57.26 | Fisker | looks like i'm a pirate ;3 |
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| 11:08.20 | *** topic/#wowuidev by Cairenn -> http://wowuidev.pastey.net/ | 3.2.x ToC: 30200 | #WoWUIDev-commits: CIA & JIRA bots reporting | If all else fails, go for the eyes! |
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| 11:21.50 | Zyn | no you're a dane |
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| 11:26.04 | Vlakarados | is someone familiar with LitePanels? |
| 11:30.13 | Wobin | Kalroth, I recall 21... JUMP! Street! |
| 11:30.21 | Wobin | if it makes you feel better =) |
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| 11:31.10 | Adys | Good news, crybabies! |
| 11:31.29 | Wobin | Arrowmaster, Dawn of the Dead? |
| 11:31.29 | Trela | ._. |
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| 11:37.04 | Kalroth | Wobin: only if you're older than me :P |
| 11:37.19 | Wobin | Could happen =P |
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| 12:10.25 | Fisker | slaps Wobin around a bit with a large trout |
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| 12:13.53 | Wobin | awesome: http://strangemaps.wordpress.com/2009/10/31/420-the-afro-latinosaurus-rex/ |
| 12:24.17 | Wobin | woah |
| 12:24.17 | Wobin | http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_SqhhJb_P3Kk/SvCbwpIXs7I/AAAAAAAAJ24/Jyh-DR69Z6A/s1600-h/Mr.+Hua+gondolas.jpg |
| 12:24.20 | Wobin | now -that- |
| 12:24.26 | Wobin | 's a gondola ride |
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| 12:35.51 | alestane | Well, looks like we lost Covenant. |
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| 12:40.39 | Kalroth | I'm sorry to hear that. Who's that? |
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| 12:43.35 | alestane | One of the regulars on the UI forum. |
| 12:44.14 | alestane | Been helping people and hanging around probably at least as long as I have. Very patient, very knowledgeable. |
| 12:45.16 | alestane | Tried to help someone who apparently started flaming him and managed to get him a 72-hour ban for "spamming and trolling," so that was apparently the last straw. |
| 12:45.23 | alestane | Not sure I can really blame him. |
| 12:46.18 | Codayus | And the UI forums continue their slow descent into being utterly crap. :-/ |
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| 12:49.07 | Ancu | unfortunate morning to you |
| 12:49.45 | Ancu | how is everyone? |
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| 12:53.29 | Ancu | Figures noone would be on |
| 12:54.35 | Cide- | we're here. just ignoring you. |
| 13:00.40 | olafski | oh I have everyone on ignore |
| 13:00.43 | olafski | else irc is too distracting |
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| 13:06.29 | Kalroth | awww |
| 13:06.32 | Kalroth | Cide is a meanie |
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| 13:21.40 | Adys | "Firefox Passes IE6 In Browser Share" |
| 13:21.54 | Adys | more like "IE6 browser share drops below Firefox's" |
| 13:24.54 | mitch0 | "Yet Opera Is Still My Favourite Browser" |
| 13:27.55 | Trela | Can any one explain this: How does WoW figure out defense rating? O.o Currently at 454 with no gloves on. [Gauntlets of the Disturbed Giant] adds 38. When I equip it, I go to 462. I only go up 8? |
| 13:28.38 | mitch0 | are you tauren? |
| 13:29.08 | Trela | Draenei. |
| 13:29.58 | Trela | 454+38=492 |
| 13:30.11 | mitch0 | do they have hoofs, too? |
| 13:30.32 | Trela | Yes. |
| 13:30.35 | alestane | You're not reading the 9 upside down, are you? |
| 13:30.47 | Trela | No, I am not. |
| 13:30.49 | Bruners | try relogging |
| 13:31.11 | mitch0 | have you tried removing your WTF folder? |
| 13:31.22 | Vlakarados | there is a rating and value I guess |
| 13:31.33 | Trela | I am just going by what it shows. |
| 13:31.49 | Trela | http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Moon%20Guard&n=K%C3%ADssy |
| 13:31.54 | Trela | Even the armory shows the same. |
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| 13:32.59 | olafski | someone just answer his question -_- |
| 13:33.29 | olafski | the defense rating adds different actual defense values depending on your level trela, to make sure that for instance lvl 70 gear becomes less useful once you start leveling to 80 |
| 13:33.41 | olafski | same with hit, crit, etc |
| 13:33.48 | Trela | Oh. o.o |
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| 13:33.57 | olafski | http://www.wowwiki.com/Defense_rating should tell you a bit more on what it does |
| 13:34.00 | mitch0 | I still swear by the hoofs |
| 13:34.05 | Vlakarados | yeah |
| 13:34.09 | Trela | Thank you. :3 |
| 13:35.25 | Trela | I know more is needed per level, but how it adds it is funky. |
| 13:36.15 | Kalroth | defense rating * modifier = actual defense! |
| 13:38.13 | olafski | not much funky about that :) |
| 13:38.19 | alestane | So what you're saying is, two different actual stats are being displayed...the gear shows its bonus to defense rating, and your character sheet shows you total defense. |
| 13:38.36 | olafski | character sheet also shows the total defense rating |
| 13:38.54 | olafski | trela: get some addon like RatingBuster which will show you the actual values on the gear |
| 13:39.00 | olafski | that might help a bit |
| 13:39.18 | Trela | Yes, basically that. *Points at Alestane.* |
| 13:40.17 | Legorol | Trela: your problem is much simpler. |
| 13:40.25 | Legorol | The character sheet shows *defense*, not *defense rating* |
| 13:40.44 | Legorol | move the mouse over the value to get a tooltip to pop up, and you will see how much total *defense rating* you have |
| 13:42.33 | Legorol | Trela: the way your total defense (as shown on the character sheet) is calculated is as follows: |
| 13:42.58 | Legorol | your base defense skill + any contribution from items |
| 13:43.23 | Legorol | base defense skill is a maximum of 400 at level 80, *but* your character must be trained up to reach that value |
| 13:43.36 | Legorol | press K to look at what your base defense skill is out of 400 at the moment |
| 13:43.37 | olafski | which is quite easy as a tank ;) |
| 13:43.47 | Legorol | looking at your armory, you haven't leveled your defense skill to 400 yet |
| 13:44.39 | Legorol | your defense skill appears to be 394 at the moment (press K to verify, it's listed in the Weapon Skills section) |
| 13:44.56 | Trela | OH! :O |
| 13:45.05 | olafski | ^^ |
| 13:45.06 | Legorol | your gear has a total of 337 *defense rating* on it, which at level 80 gives you 68 *defense* |
| 13:45.32 | Trela | I hit eighty earlier this morning. |
| 13:45.35 | Legorol | so your (unmaxed) defense skill is 394, you gain 68 from gear, for a total of 462 |
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| 13:45.50 | olafski | just to get confused, go to Acherus and enchant that axe of yours, trela |
| 13:45.50 | Legorol | the conversion factor between defense rating and defense is 4.92 |
| 13:46.03 | Trela | I know, need to do that still. :P |
| 13:46.07 | olafski | put Rune of the Stoneskin Gargoyle on, and you'll have +25 *defense* :) |
| 13:46.11 | Legorol | one of the reasons they are removing defense skill in Cataclysm is this confusion (among other problems) |
| 13:46.38 | Legorol | people often confuse *defense* with *defense rating*, and the fact that you gain it both from a skill (which needs to be leveled to a maximum) and from gear is confusing too |
| 13:46.59 | alestane | While people are on this topic, a pally friend of mine is trying to get clear on whether increasing his dodge chance reduces the likelihood that he will block any given attack with his shield. |
| 13:47.02 | Legorol | having said that, maxing out your defense skill is a trivial matter |
| 13:47.16 | Trela | Also because hit and resilience show the rating right there. Not some calculation. |
| 13:47.23 | msoul | Anyone familiar with fortexorcist addon? |
| 13:47.24 | Legorol | alestane: in the way he is likely to be thinking about it, the answer is no |
| 13:47.27 | Legorol | but it depends |
| 13:47.38 | alestane | I don't recall them saying they were removing the actual defense skill, but I think they did say they were taking defense rating off gear. |
| 13:47.46 | Legorol | if the question is "what proportion of enemy attacks will I block", then the answer is no |
| 13:48.13 | alestane | Legorol: His concern is whether or not dodging more attacks means thinks will hit his holy shield less often. |
| 13:48.13 | Legorol | if the question is "out of the avoided enemy attacks, what proportion will be dodge and what will be block", obviously the proportion of block goes down |
| 13:48.27 | Legorol | and there is a twist to it as well |
| 13:48.29 | alestane | s/thinks/his/ |
| 13:48.41 | alestane | I fail. |
| 13:49.04 | Legorol | if he has sufficiently high combined miss, dodge, parry and block, then he will cap out the combat table and increasing dodge *will* reduce his block chance |
| 13:49.15 | alestane | He just doesn't want taking Anticipation to cut into his threat generation. |
| 13:49.26 | Legorol | he is not an end-game tank i take it :) |
| 13:49.32 | alestane | Not at the moment. |
| 13:50.02 | Legorol | ask him to add up his dodge, parry and block, together with the "miss chance" reported in the tooltip when mousing over his defense skill |
| 13:50.02 | alestane | Probably never beyond five-mans, he doesn't have the patience for guild drama. |
| 13:50.58 | Legorol | if the total miss+dodge+parry+block is 102.4% or higher, his block *may* be reduced by additional dodge, as 102.4% is the combined avoidance cap against L83 bosses |
| 13:51.09 | Legorol | the reason why I say *may* is due to a subtle technicality: |
| 13:51.11 | msoul | Does anyone knows if spell timer can display only my spells instead all of the other classes on bosses? |
| 13:51.18 | olafski | http://www.wowwiki.com/Attack_table might help |
| 13:51.37 | Legorol | the character sheet lists the final, accurate diminished values for dodge, parry and block, but the tooltip for defense lists the *undiminished* value for miss |
| 13:51.52 | Legorol | as a result, the actual miss chance is lower than what's listed in the tooltip |
| 13:52.07 | Legorol | calculating diminished miss is not trivial though, the formula is available on wowwiki somewhere (i'd have to dig) |
| 13:52.22 | Legorol | the complete algorithm would be: |
| 13:52.31 | Legorol | 1) take the miss chance listed on the defense tooltip |
| 13:52.38 | Legorol | 2) calculated diminished miss value |
| 13:52.49 | Legorol | 3) add up diminished miss + parry/dodge/block as listed on character sheet |
| 13:53.10 | Legorol | 4) if total is 102.4% or higher, then increasing dodge will reduce the proportion of attacks blocked, as dodge has higher priority than block |
| 13:53.31 | Legorol | I hope the answer is sufficiently complex :) |
| 13:53.49 | Legorol | (this is another reason why they are getting rid of defense skill) |
| 13:53.55 | alestane | It makes me wonder why the heck this game involves so many variables. |
| 13:54.02 | Legorol | Your average WoW player can't be expected to understand this |
| 13:54.11 | alestane | I still don't recall ever hearing that they're killing defense skill. |
| 13:54.16 | Legorol | alestane: Blizz thought exactly the same, which is why all the different combat ratings are going away in Cataclysm |
| 13:54.21 | alestane | Defense rating on gear, yes. |
| 13:54.37 | olafski | expertise too |
| 13:54.40 | Legorol | hm, i might remember that one incorrectly |
| 13:54.41 | olafski | and some other thing.. hit? |
| 13:54.51 | Legorol | but they are killing the whole idea of having to reach the defense floor and other such nonsense |
| 13:55.10 | alestane | Gear is basically going to be strength, stamina, intellect, spirit and agility in some combination. |
| 13:55.12 | Legorol | olafski: they are getting rid of everything, from what i heard. crit rating, hit rating, haste rating, arpen etc. on gear |
| 13:55.19 | Legorol | yah, what alestane said |
| 13:55.20 | olafski | hmm |
| 13:55.25 | Legorol | these stats will still exist, just not be available on gear |
| 13:55.31 | Legorol | and i like that change a lot |
| 13:55.33 | alestane | But talents and gems and enchants might still affect some of these stats. |
| 13:55.37 | olafski | I assume there will still be haste, but it will for instance be "10 agility adds 1% haste"? |
| 13:55.53 | alestane | I think haste may still be a fundamental stat. |
| 13:55.55 | Legorol | there will still be plenty chance for theorycrafting, but the averge player will now be able to judge gear upgrades a bit better |
| 13:56.07 | alestane | Keep in mind that this stuff hasn't even started alpha yet, let alone beta. |
| 13:56.08 | Legorol | i really like this "back to basics" idea |
| 13:56.17 | Legorol | i'll be very happy to try and test it |
| 13:56.42 | olafski | tbh they should add in the tooltip "this item is better" if it's an upgrade ;) |
| 13:56.54 | olafski | possibly even "this item is 15% better" but that might make it too confusing :D |
| 13:57.11 | Legorol | but the thing is olafski, whether an item is better or not is not a black/white decision |
| 13:57.27 | Legorol | there are often no obvious choices, and it's a call on the part of the player |
| 13:57.28 | olafski | (this was sarcasm, sorry) |
| 13:57.34 | Legorol | ah ok |
| 13:57.36 | Legorol | ~sarcasm |
| 13:57.36 | purl | Oh a sarcasm detector, that's a *really* useful invention! |
| 13:57.36 | olafski | ;) |
| 13:57.58 | olafski | at least they have that compare thing built in now |
| 13:58.02 | olafski | but ratingbuster still does it better |
| 13:58.30 | Legorol | the builtin thing does it cleanly and simply though |
| 13:58.44 | Legorol | it's appropriate for something built in to the default UI |
| 13:59.04 | olafski | yeah |
| 13:59.15 | olafski | but ratingbuster calculates for instance the % crit you gain from agility etc |
| 13:59.25 | olafski | and I think it also takes care of talents |
| 14:02.07 | alestane | One other question: What's the base miss chance on spells for a level 80 against a boss? |
| 14:02.54 | foxlit | 17% vs 83 |
| 14:03.19 | alestane | So with no bonus, I can expect roughly one spell in six to miss? |
| 14:03.43 | olafski | I'd say so |
| 14:04.52 | alestane | Which is why everyone talks about being hit-capped all the time. That sounds like you should be looking for something like 350 hit rating. |
| 14:05.00 | msoul | Anyone familiar with fortexorcist addon? as it displays all spells "spell timer" instead of just my class when we fight a boss |
| 14:05.48 | msoul | fortexorcist |
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| 14:06.54 | shkm | The built-in comparison thing doesn't even compare gems. |
| 14:07.04 | foxlit | shkm: it compares sockets. |
| 14:07.13 | shkm | Oh? |
| 14:07.32 | foxlit | alestane: usually less; there are DPS caster talents and some raid effects that increase hit chance. |
| 14:07.40 | shkm | I remember distinctly writing it off as useless last time I used it, but perhaps I missed that. |
| 14:07.47 | alestane | Well, yes. I have suppression, for instance. |
| 14:07.56 | foxlit | What it does not compare is socket bonuses, however. |
| 14:08.25 | foxlit | (The comparison goes like "-1 Blue socket" "+2 Blue sockets", neglecting to mention the gems within) |
| 14:08.56 | shkm | Ah, right. It could be useful if a couple of modifiers were added which would each compare slightly different. |
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| 14:09.22 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v Lopeppeppy] by ChanServ |
| 14:10.43 | foxlit | Gah. |
| 14:10.52 | Lopeppeppy | Very gah |
| 14:11.10 | foxlit | I can filter input to reduce the size of the search space, but that kills the search heuristic and searching actually takes longer :/ |
| 14:12.38 | olafski | I believe all caster classes have at least something to increase their hit chance by 3% |
| 14:13.11 | alestane | greets Lopeppeppy. |
| 14:13.30 | olafski | so at most you'd need 14% |
| 14:15.38 | Cide- | foxlit: searching what? |
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| 14:16.43 | Cide- | msoul: what kind of stupid name is fortexorcist? |
| 14:16.54 | Cide- | people should name their addons less stupidly |
| 14:17.02 | olafski | agreed there :P |
| 14:17.05 | Lopeppeppy | morning, alestane |
| 14:17.20 | Cide- | I'd refuse to use an addon called fortexorcist |
| 14:17.28 | olafski | I use it ;) |
| 14:17.34 | olafski | it has funky animations |
| 14:17.44 | foxlit | Cide: some constraint optimization problem. |
| 14:17.50 | olafski | I never actually "use" it, it's just on my screen for the nice animations |
| 14:17.50 | mitch0 | cide: do you think the author cares whether _you_ refuse to use it or not? :) |
| 14:19.23 | Cide- | he certainly should if he wants some respect in the community |
| 14:20.00 | olafski | I'd say that addon is popular enough whether or not you like it tbh :( |
| 14:20.45 | Cide- | oh, I have no doubts about that. certainly it's up there with my addons' numbers. |
| 14:20.51 | olafski | =) |
| 14:21.03 | olafski | I prefer addon names that describe what the addon actually does |
| 14:21.25 | olafski | http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/togglenames.aspx <-- this is a great addon name O:) |
| 14:21.41 | foxlit | ActionBar1, ActionBar2, ... |
| 14:22.38 | mitch0 | cide: I bet you wouldn't like Bazooka then, either :) |
| 14:22.50 | mitch0 | (although its name does relate slightly to its functionality :) |
| 14:23.54 | Fisker | slaps foxlit around a bit with a large trout |
| 14:24.17 | Cide- | bazooka is also a stupid name and using it makes you look insecure |
| 14:24.46 | mitch0 | you might feel insecure if that's what's your first thought about the name :P |
| 14:25.02 | Cide- | what are you talking about? |
| 14:25.55 | mitch0 | orders a thousand liters of milk |
| 14:26.42 | Cide- | what I'm saying is that why equip yourself with a bazooka when you already have a sword? or a dagger? |
| 14:27.23 | mitch0 | 'cos it's a launcher thing, see? :) |
| 14:28.05 | mitch0 | also: foo, bar, baz. we already had FuBar, -> Baz* (laucher/data source... ponder) -> Bazooka |
| 14:28.10 | Lopeppeppy | Um, not planning on close-quarters combat, myself. |
| 14:28.12 | mitch0 | there. you have the complete story now :) |
| 14:28.39 | Cide- | wow, thanks for that |
| 14:28.44 | Kalroth | Ba (sheep), zoo (animals), ka (Ford) |
| 14:29.01 | Cide- | I'm going to go throw up out of stupidity overload |
| 14:29.15 | olafski | someone's sounding really bitter today ;) |
| 14:29.36 | mitch0 | hm. I might create a twitter or whatnot account. and fill it with lines like that thought process |
| 14:29.46 | mitch0 | bet I'll be hugely famous in days |
| 14:29.49 | Kalroth | Cide started on his new project today: programming a graphics driver in Visual Basic! |
| 14:30.12 | olafski | blargh still getting these weird disconnects >_< |
| 14:32.04 | *** part/#wowuidev shkm (i=4df88a8c@gateway/web/freenode/x-a7f0e66eac407b31) |
| 14:32.06 | *** join/#wowuidev DWSR (n=doingwha@unaffiliated/dwsr) |
| 14:32.10 | DWSR | ZorbaGama: Ping |
| 14:32.45 | DWSR | Does anyone know if SexyCooldown provides a splash icon when a buff is up? |
| 14:33.38 | olafski | I have a ping -t google.com window up all the time, when I get disconnected from wow that shows Request timed out. x6.. pretty much always 6 times, I doubt that's a broken cable then right? |
| 14:34.34 | *** join/#wowuidev harl (i=harl@dslb-088-077-209-248.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 14:34.50 | DWSR | correct |
| 14:34.55 | DWSR | ISP |
| 14:35.19 | DWSR | Probably trying to disrupt your P2P activities. |
| 14:35.23 | olafski | my GF sitting next to me never gets disconnected though |
| 14:35.27 | DWSR | Oh |
| 14:35.34 | DWSR | Fail nic, I suppose. |
| 14:35.36 | olafski | and I'm not doing any p2p activities on this PC.. on her PC however a torrent client runs 24/7 |
| 14:35.40 | olafski | I replaced my nic |
| 14:36.02 | olafski | all I can think of is "broken port on the switch" or something |
| 14:36.21 | olafski | that or wow is sending some packet which breaks something, cause it never seems to happen when wow isn't started |
| 14:36.25 | DWSR | you guys running the same versions of Windows? |
| 14:36.32 | olafski | no, I'm on vista, she's on xp |
| 14:36.47 | DWSR | Might have something to do with it. The network stacks are much different on each |
| 14:36.49 | olafski | trying to think when this started happening.. maybe some windows update |
| 14:37.53 | *** join/#wowuidev Ose (n=chatzill@wikia/Ose) |
| 14:39.14 | mitch0 | try running a torrent client 24/7 on your machine, too? :) |
| 14:40.35 | *** join/#wowuidev olafski (n=egrimm@dream.student.utwente.nl) |
| 14:40.53 | *** join/#wowuidev DWSR (n=doingwha@24.114.252.240) |
| 14:40.55 | olafski | I should really figure out how to "fix" screen when it hangs |
| 14:41.35 | olafski | updated my network driver, mayhaps that helps =) |
| 14:41.59 | Cide- | update to windows 7 already |
| 14:43.09 | olafski | no thanks |
| 14:49.22 | Cide- | suit yourself |
| 14:49.24 | Cide- | enjoy the disconnects |
| 14:49.33 | *** join/#wowuidev foxlit (n=foxlit@0x573e6bae.alb2nxx18.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk) |
| 14:50.26 | *** join/#wowuidev mitch0 (n=mitch@www.drvolomdental.hu) |
| 14:50.31 | olafski | bitterman :D |
| 14:50.37 | mitch0 | damn, they shut down our proxy server |
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| 15:13.15 | Shirik | Cide- |
| 15:13.23 | Shirik | suuuuuuuuup |
| 15:15.51 | Fisker | Shirik |
| 15:15.57 | Fisker | i hope you go to heaven |
| 15:21.17 | Legorol | Anyone here who is a total wiz with regards to memory address spaces, PCI devices, the "4Gb limit" on 32-bit systems etc.? |
| 15:21.42 | Kalroth | Depends on the question :p |
| 15:21.51 | Legorol | I have the following issue: I have 3 Gb of physical RAM installed in my system. I run Windows XP Pro (32-bit). |
| 15:21.59 | Kalroth | yup |
| 15:22.33 | Legorol | BIOS only reports 2658 Mb of available RAM. I had a look around as to what's going on, and it seems the BIOS is reserving more memory than is warranted at the top of the 4 Gb range. |
| 15:22.47 | Legorol | It's reserving the address range from A801 0000 to FFFF FFFF. |
| 15:22.49 | Kalroth | How much memory does your graphics card have? |
| 15:22.52 | Legorol | 256 Mb |
| 15:23.21 | Legorol | Now I understand that the way these things work is that you have up to 4 Gb of addresses to work with, which must fit all PCI devices (as well as the small amount of reserved addresses required for the BIOS), plus your physical memory. |
| 15:23.31 | Kalroth | Yup |
| 15:23.41 | Legorol | I have chosen to install only 3 Gb of physical RAM because I thought that 1 Gb at the top of the memory range would be sufficient, but it appears not to be. |
| 15:24.01 | Kalroth | When you say bios, it's at the startup screen and/or inside bios settings? |
| 15:24.07 | Legorol | Additional info: i have a DX capable P4, so PAE is enabled by default |
| 15:24.11 | Legorol | yes Kalroth |
| 15:24.29 | Legorol | In windows, i went to the device manager to examine memory layout |
| 15:24.51 | Legorol | What I can see is that the block A801 0000 to FFFF FFFF is allocated to the PCI bus, but |
| 15:25.34 | Legorol | the lowest address range that is actually allocated to any device appears to be C000 0000 to CFFF FFFF, which is one of the several ranges allocated to my nVidia GeForce 6600 |
| 15:26.08 | Legorol | the entire range from A801 0000 to BFFF FFFF seems unused for anything, at least according to this limited memory map provided by windows' device manager |
| 15:26.08 | *** join/#wowuidev Funkeh` (n=funk@82.111.126.53) |
| 15:26.16 | Kalroth | Well it's not a 32-bit issue |
| 15:26.22 | Legorol | no i don't think it is |
| 15:26.30 | Kalroth | Since you should have 3072 memory available to Windows |
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| 15:26.31 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o Seerah] by ChanServ |
| 15:26.33 | Legorol | but on a 64-bit OS there'd be possibilities to remap it |
| 15:26.50 | Kalroth | it's only if memory + PCI devices > 4096 that it becomes a 32bit issue |
| 15:26.51 | Legorol | not necessarily 3072, depending on how much the PCI devices need |
| 15:26.56 | Legorol | yup, exactly |
| 15:27.00 | Legorol | that's why i'm surprised |
| 15:27.22 | Kalroth | is the bios setup to uhhm, what's it called |
| 15:27.30 | Kalroth | pnp or something like that |
| 15:27.32 | Legorol | i should have 3072 even on a 32-bit system, as far as i can tell |
| 15:27.41 | Kalroth | auto detect pci or something - I forget the name |
| 15:27.46 | Legorol | all PnP related settings in the BIOS are left at their defaults |
| 15:27.49 | Kalroth | where it's the bios or the OS that handles PCI devices |
| 15:27.50 | Legorol | I have an ASUS P5GV-MX |
| 15:27.58 | Legorol | yup, it's left to the OS to handle them |
| 15:28.00 | Shirik | ty Fisker ty |
| 15:28.17 | Legorol | i checked the BIOS settings a bit, as far as i can tell everything is in order, but if you can think of anything specific to check, i will do |
| 15:28.27 | Legorol | i do know that PnP resources are set to be allocated by the OS |
| 15:28.45 | Kalroth | yeah, that's fine then |
| 15:28.46 | Gnarfoz | check if your bios has a memory remapping option |
| 15:28.52 | Legorol | it doesn't |
| 15:28.54 | Legorol | it's a fairly old one |
| 15:29.04 | mikma | how much will +10 all stat -gem give health to DK? |
| 15:29.04 | Legorol | since the BIOS setup already only reports 2658 Mb, this doesn't appear to be an OS issue |
| 15:29.12 | Kalroth | what kind of memory blocks are you using? 2x1024 and 2x512? |
| 15:29.13 | Gnarfoz | well, your ram is faulty, then ;-) |
| 15:29.20 | Legorol | for some reason the BIOS is reserving too much space for the PCI bus |
| 15:29.25 | Legorol | yes Kalroth |
| 15:29.27 | Legorol | and no, Gnarfoz |
| 15:29.37 | Legorol | i ran memtest and the likes for several hours |
| 15:29.42 | Shirik | Legorol, what exactly is the problem? |
| 15:29.46 | Legorol | and if it was faulty, i'd expect to see 2048+512 |
| 15:29.48 | Gnarfoz | quite sure, because my bios shows 4096 installed even though it has to use that space for PCI devices later on |
| 15:29.50 | Shirik | I see this number 3072 come out of nowhere |
| 15:29.59 | *** join/#wowuidev foxlit (n=foxlit@0x573e6bae.alb2nxx18.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk) |
| 15:29.59 | Legorol | i have 3 Gb of physical RAM installed |
| 15:30.07 | Legorol | and therefore I'd have expected to be able to use them |
| 15:30.20 | Kalroth | AGP aperture maybe? |
| 15:30.24 | Legorol | since PCI devices should be allocating from the top of the 4 Gb address range, and I didn't expect to have 1 Gb worth of addresses that they need |
| 15:30.35 | Legorol | i have a graphics card with 256 Mb |
| 15:30.44 | Legorol | it's a PCI-E card |
| 15:30.48 | Legorol | do those still use AGP apertures? |
| 15:30.50 | Kalroth | oh right :p |
| 15:30.50 | Kalroth | naw |
| 15:30.51 | Shirik | Memory maps tend to be inefficient |
| 15:30.52 | Kalroth | they dont |
| 15:30.55 | Shirik | however |
| 15:31.05 | Shirik | You may be hitting a PAE difference |
| 15:31.12 | Legorol | Shirik: indeed, that's what i'm discovering, and trying to figure out how to coax the BIOS into not reserving unneeded space |
| 15:31.12 | *** join/#wowuidev Kraftman (n=Chris@cpc1-cwma7-2-0-cust280.7-3.cable.virginmedia.com) |
| 15:31.23 | Shirik | That's not really necessary |
| 15:31.27 | Shirik | do you have a reason to? |
| 15:31.30 | Legorol | i don't *think* it's a PAE issue, since the amount reported is already low in the BIOS |
| 15:31.32 | Legorol | before the OS boots |
| 15:31.37 | Kalroth | well he's missing ~400 mb of ram |
| 15:31.42 | Shirik | Is he really missing it? |
| 15:31.42 | Kalroth | before the OS even boots |
| 15:31.47 | Legorol | yes i'm missing it Shirik |
| 15:31.57 | Kalroth | he got 2x 1024 and 2x 512 memory blocks |
| 15:32.00 | Shirik | The BIOS says you're missing it? Or where are you reading this? |
| 15:32.00 | Legorol | i do tax my system with multiple crap running |
| 15:32.03 | Legorol | yes |
| 15:32.11 | Shirik | ok then that's bad :P |
| 15:32.11 | Legorol | the BIOS setup reports only 2658 Mb being available |
| 15:32.18 | Shirik | But it also reports all chips correctly |
| 15:32.25 | Legorol | i beleive so |
| 15:32.36 | Legorol | using various windows utilities, they all claim i have 3 Gb physically installed |
| 15:32.39 | Shirik | and you don't have a graphics card that uses shared memory? |
| 15:32.54 | Legorol | there is an onboard graphics chip, which i have disabled to the best of my abilities |
| 15:33.06 | Shirik | how did you disable it? |
| 15:33.09 | Legorol | Shirik, here is the thing though (i'll retype this so you don't have to scroll up): |
| 15:33.15 | Gnarfoz | there's only one thing you should need to do: turn it off in the BIOS :P |
| 15:33.20 | Legorol | in windows' device manager, you can look at your system's memory map |
| 15:33.26 | Gnarfoz | it using 414 MB would be weird, though |
| 15:33.28 | Cide- | hi Shirik |
| 15:33.30 | Cide- | sup? |
| 15:33.37 | Kalroth | yes, you need to disable it in BIOS for sure |
| 15:33.43 | Kalroth | otherwise it'll still steal memory |
| 15:33.59 | Kalroth | 414 could be more than 1 device though |
| 15:34.00 | Legorol | there i can see that the range A801 000 to FFFF FFFF is reserved for PCI bus |
| 15:34.02 | *** join/#wowuidev Kraps (n=chatzill@ool-44c20717.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 15:34.15 | Kalroth | yeah, onboard shit "emulates" a PCI device |
| 15:34.31 | Legorol | within that range, the lowest sub-range that actually seems to be allocated to anything is C000 0000 to CFFF FFFF, which is one of the several ranges assigned to my nVidia card |
| 15:34.46 | Kalroth | what motherboard model again? |
| 15:34.51 | Legorol | all the rest of the crap above CFFF FFFF is divided up and allocated to various things |
| 15:35.00 | Legorol | it's an ASUS P5GV-MC |
| 15:35.01 | Legorol | *MX |
| 15:35.23 | Kalroth | I'm guessing it allocates 256mb for your nVidia card, 128mb for onboard shit and the rest for misc devices |
| 15:35.25 | Legorol | so as far as i can tell, the BIOS has reserved A801 0000 to BFFF FFFF needlessly |
| 15:35.27 | Shirik | I don't think you typed that right |
| 15:35.38 | Shirik | ok that makes a little more sense |
| 15:35.40 | Legorol | yes i typod |
| 15:36.33 | Legorol | it should've been A801 0000, not A801 000 |
| 15:36.33 | olafski | seems it was my ISPs fault that I keep getting disconnected :< |
| 15:36.34 | Ackis | coughs all over olafski giving him H1N1. |
| 15:36.41 | Legorol | Kalroth: in my BIOS settings, there is only one option related to onboard graphics, and that's a setting for how much memory i want to preallocate to it. |
| 15:36.47 | Legorol | The possible values are: Disabled, 1 Mb, 8 Mb. |
| 15:36.53 | Shirik | that actually seems correct Legorol |
| 15:36.54 | Kalroth | oh heh |
| 15:36.56 | Shirik | that seems perfect |
| 15:37.06 | Legorol | Shirik: what seems correct? |
| 15:37.09 | Shirik | the allocation |
| 15:37.14 | Legorol | A801 0000 upwards being reserved? |
| 15:37.17 | Gnarfoz | that'd be weird |
| 15:37.18 | Legorol | I don't think it is |
| 15:37.19 | Shirik | It's not |
| 15:37.22 | Kalroth | Well what does Windows report you have? |
| 15:37.23 | Shirik | But you're misreading it |
| 15:37.23 | olafski | again ackis? |
| 15:37.25 | Kalroth | of memory |
| 15:37.33 | Legorol | ok, how am i misreading it? |
| 15:37.45 | Ackis | olafski: you can't have too muhc H1N1 |
| 15:37.47 | Shirik | PAE allows for what would appear to be the overlapping of memory locations. Note that you're actually only using C000 0000 and up |
| 15:38.01 | Shirik | Take note that 3GB would use everything from 0 to BFFF FFFF |
| 15:38.09 | Legorol | the address A801 0000 = 2818637824 = 2752576 KiB = 2688.0625 MiB |
| 15:38.18 | Legorol | exactly Shirik |
| 15:38.24 | olafski | ackis: true I guess |
| 15:38.31 | Shirik | Note that the first location the BIOS actually used was C000 0000 for a device |
| 15:38.38 | Legorol | that's why i have access to less than 3 Gb RAM, because the BIOS has reserved A801 0000 to BFFF FFFF for no reason |
| 15:38.43 | Shirik | I don't think it has |
| 15:38.50 | Shirik | I think that's Windows playing tricks on you with PAE |
| 15:38.58 | Legorol | well the numbers match up |
| 15:39.09 | Legorol | BIOS setup reports 2658 Mb even prior to OS booting |
| 15:39.14 | Legorol | which is almost exactly A801 0000 |
| 15:39.26 | Kalroth | BIOS settings really shouldn't be affected by anything from the OS, heh |
| 15:39.28 | Legorol | so PAE doesn't enter the equation yet |
| 15:39.29 | Shirik | Right, but the BIOS doesn't turn on PAE |
| 15:39.33 | Legorol | exactly |
| 15:39.34 | Shirik | Windows can |
| 15:39.41 | Legorol | that's exactly my point too! |
| 15:39.45 | *** join/#wowuidev stolenlegacy (n=stolenle@d86-33-207-79.cust.tele2.at) |
| 15:39.45 | Kalroth | why does BIOS report a lower number then? |
| 15:39.50 | Shirik | The BIOS DID correctly identify the first location as 0xC0000000 |
| 15:39.55 | Legorol | it didn't |
| 15:39.58 | Shirik | and position the first device there |
| 15:40.00 | Legorol | the BIOS setup is showing 2568 Mb |
| 15:40.04 | Shirik | ignore that for a second |
| 15:40.11 | Shirik | It correctly positioned the first device |
| 15:40.14 | Legorol | also, devices are allocated address ranges from the top |
| 15:40.23 | Legorol | or should be anyway |
| 15:40.25 | Shirik | no |
| 15:40.40 | Shirik | that would be flawed because FFFF FFFF and a few locations close to there have special purpose |
| 15:40.48 | Legorol | indeed, those are reserved to start with |
| 15:41.03 | Legorol | and then allocation starts below that, according to what i skimread out of PCI specs |
| 15:41.20 | Shirik | Anyway, point is, the BIOS is not actually using anything below 0xC0000000 |
| 15:41.23 | Legorol | but you are right, the first range allocated to a device starts at C000 0000 |
| 15:41.31 | Shirik | After Windows turns on PAE, all of that space is accessible |
| 15:41.35 | Shirik | it's not accessible until it's turned on though |
| 15:41.46 | Shirik | so the BIOS is also correct in reporting that you don't have all 3GB of memory |
| 15:41.48 | nevcairiel | shh 32-bit needs to die |
| 15:41.50 | Legorol | hols on |
| 15:41.53 | Legorol | hold on |
| 15:42.05 | Legorol | if BIOS is allocating the first device at C000 0000, |
| 15:42.20 | Legorol | why is it reserving A801 0000 onwards to start with? and report only 2658 Mb as being available/ |
| 15:42.28 | Shirik | Because it wants to? :) I don't have a good reason for that |
| 15:42.28 | Legorol | what is it reserving that range *for* |
| 15:42.41 | Legorol | and even with PAE, i seem to have no access to that reserved range |
| 15:42.46 | Kalroth | Legorol: do you boot Windows with the /3GB switch? |
| 15:42.46 | Shirik | It probably has a good reason, but in all honesty that's not much concern |
| 15:42.57 | Legorol | windows' dumb "how much memory do i have" thingy only shows 2.62 GB |
| 15:43.07 | Kalroth | yeah, then you only got that |
| 15:43.11 | Shirik | ok then |
| 15:43.16 | Kalroth | so the BIOS steals 414mb for some reason |
| 15:43.19 | Legorol | Kalroth: the /3GB switch is something very different, i read up on that in detail |
| 15:43.29 | Kalroth | Yeah, it was mainly to see if the numbers changed |
| 15:43.38 | Kalroth | 3gb switch is for user/kernel space |
| 15:43.38 | Shirik | Well there has to be a reason :) |
| 15:43.41 | Legorol | that controls the virtual address space division between user/kernel space |
| 15:43.45 | Legorol | indeed |
| 15:43.59 | Shirik | Check for a BIOS update? |
| 15:44.06 | Shirik | Obviously at least half of this is working correctly |
| 15:44.07 | Legorol | Shirik, i'm actually suspecting that it's just a crap BIOS |
| 15:44.13 | Kalroth | he's using hardware from 2003! |
| 15:44.20 | DWSR | anyone here have a link for a titan panel skin that's not included in the default package? |
| 15:44.20 | Legorol | it's quite old, i'm already running the latest update which is many years old |
| 15:44.33 | Shirik | The BIOS is correctly recognizing the first free addressable space as 0xC0000000 |
| 15:44.52 | Shirik | The question, then, is what's with the other segment |
| 15:44.54 | Ackis | http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/4510/125/ |
| 15:44.55 | Ackis | :( |
| 15:45.01 | Legorol | indeed Shirik |
| 15:45.03 | Ackis | that's the cancer killing the internet Fisker |
| 15:45.07 | Legorol | is there any way to find out? |
| 15:45.24 | Shirik | Take out your BIOS chip, stick it on a chip reader, and start reading code |
| 15:45.41 | Shirik | that would be how I'd do it :D |
| 15:45.47 | foxlit | And to those of us watching from home? |
| 15:45.49 | Adys | http://img.brothersoft.com/screenshots/softimage/i/independence_war_2-_the_edge_of_chaos-294235-1255143727.jpeg |
| 15:45.49 | Shirik | they probably use a non-standard chip actually |
| 15:45.55 | Adys | this shot does eoc justice |
| 15:46.03 | Adys | i link it here because its so hard to find one |
| 15:46.14 | Shirik | SEEN IT ALREADY ADYS |
| 15:46.17 | Shirik | GAH SO SLOW |
| 15:46.20 | Adys | wat |
| 15:46.22 | Adys | you haveN |
| 15:46.23 | Adys | ? |
| 15:46.27 | Shirik | yes |
| 15:46.30 | Shirik | you already linked it to me :P |
| 15:46.35 | Adys | .. no |
| 15:46.42 | Shirik | oh this is different |
| 15:46.46 | Adys | SEE |
| 15:46.49 | Shirik | Anyway, needs an oz display |
| 15:47.01 | Kalroth | a display from new zealand? |
| 15:47.04 | Legorol | ok, hypothesis testing time: if i rip out one of the 512 Mb sticks, I should have access to exactly 2560 Mb still |
| 15:47.15 | Kalroth | Legorol: yes |
| 15:47.15 | Legorol | it won't give me much info, but worth a test probably |
| 15:47.38 | Legorol | am i allowed to mix 2x1Gb and 1x512Mb? |
| 15:47.39 | Kalroth | heh, the BIOS might have a 3gb limit actually |
| 15:47.43 | Legorol | i know it will kill dual channel, but hey |
| 15:47.46 | Kalroth | if you dont dual channel, yes |
| 15:47.47 | Shirik | Kalroth: http://evaluatingdesign.com/research/aviation/oz-display/ |
| 15:48.11 | Legorol | that's an awesome stuff |
| 15:48.32 | Legorol | I'm starting to suspect that the BIOS is dumb and reserves some space for the onboard graphics regardless |
| 15:48.38 | Shirik | possible |
| 15:48.47 | Legorol | but why would it do it at such a strange address |
| 15:48.48 | Shirik | you turned it off in the bios though? |
| 15:49.00 | Legorol | well there is no option to turn off onboard graphics completely, unfortunately |
| 15:49.09 | Legorol | only to disable preallocating memory for it (disable, 1Mb or 8Mb) |
| 15:49.17 | *** join/#wowuidev Vilkku (n=Vilkku@sparknet-agw0.abo.fi) |
| 15:49.29 | Shirik | uh |
| 15:49.31 | Shirik | wtf? |
| 15:49.32 | Legorol | that one is set to disable |
| 15:49.49 | Legorol | it's a very old mobo, so it's from an era where 8 Mb was enough for graphics :) |
| 15:50.13 | Shirik | You're trying to run a computer with 3GB of memory on a board that thinks 8MB is enough for graphics? |
| 15:50.35 | Legorol | anyway, i don't miss the ~400 Mb RAM that much, but it's kinda dumb having to have a 512 Mb stick, mostly unused, in my system just to enable dual channel on the 1 Gb sticks :) |
| 15:50.44 | Shirik | If it makes you feel any better |
| 15:50.56 | Shirik | I recently wrote a program that makes you run out of memory after allocating 50MB of memory |
| 15:50.59 | Kalroth | what about shadow memory? |
| 15:51.03 | Legorol | lol Shirik |
| 15:51.07 | Legorol | how the hell did you do that |
| 15:51.09 | Shirik | (tested on my computer with 4GB of memory) |
| 15:51.22 | Kalroth | by allocating 1 byte at a time? :P |
| 15:51.26 | Shirik | I made the Kernel make so many different things that you just run out of address space |
| 15:51.28 | Legorol | Kalroth: isn't shadowing usually just used for code in ROM, which I doubt is of the order of 400 Mb |
| 15:51.31 | Legorol | it would be a few Mb |
| 15:51.44 | Shirik | Each thread needs a reserved space for the stack, but you don't have to use it, so it doesn't count as "in use" |
| 15:51.49 | Kalroth | Legorol: Yeah, true |
| 15:52.05 | Shirik | so eventually I just marked up the entire address space as "reserved" |
| 15:52.08 | Shirik | by creating about 1400 threads |
| 15:52.38 | Legorol | hehe |
| 15:52.41 | Kalroth | I made a Windows installation "hardlock" a few weeks back, I allocated so many GDI handles that Windows couldn't even open the "Are you sure you want to kill this process?" dialog from task manager |
| 15:52.48 | Shirik | I tried to run it in 64-bit mode, got to about 400k threads and gave up |
| 15:53.05 | Shirik | by that point it was taking way too long just to make each new thread |
| 15:53.37 | Shirik | Windows needs a sysrq |
| 15:53.50 | Shirik | saved my ass a week ago on my server |
| 15:54.02 | *** join/#wowuidev Odlaw (n=ozzy@c-98-245-3-204.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 15:54.44 | Legorol | so i guess you guys are out of ideas too about what i could try with this memory issue |
| 15:54.48 | Legorol | if you think of something, let me know |
| 15:55.20 | Legorol | it's not a devastating issue, and i'd mostly love to fix it out of curiousity and the desire to tinker ;) |
| 15:55.52 | foxlit | Try finding a linux livecd |
| 15:57.04 | foxlit | And seeing how much memory that is able to use. |
| 15:57.44 | DWSR | or just do a memtest? |
| 15:58.31 | *** join/#wowuidev Odlaw (n=ozzy@c-98-245-3-204.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 15:59.49 | Shirik | Legorol, yeah I'm mostly out of ideas but I'm going to think about it |
| 15:59.56 | Shirik | because there's two problems at work here |
| 16:00.15 | Shirik | the BIOS is conflicting with itself. It obviously recognizes 0xC0000000 as the first free address, but also chooses to use lower addresses as well |
| 16:00.26 | Shirik | Windows, however, should also be able to recognize this fault and adjust accordingly |
| 16:00.39 | Shirik | unless your board doesn't support PAE |
| 16:00.44 | Shirik | but I don't see why it wouldn't |
| 16:00.56 | Legorol | windows claims that PAE is on |
| 16:01.16 | Legorol | and since the CPU supports NX bit, which to my knowledge requires PAE, i'd hope the board does too |
| 16:01.19 | Shirik | lol. |
| 16:01.21 | Shirik | First, it's very refreshing to check my e-mail at 5:00 am and find a student asking questions about last night's lecture. Thank you. |
| 16:01.21 | Shirik | Second, this seems interesting and from spending 10 minutes on it I have no idea why it fails. I promise I will dig deeper into it once I have more time in the next couple of days. |
| 16:01.28 | Shirik | Email from professor ^ |
| 16:01.46 | Legorol | woot :) |
| 16:02.09 | Shirik | Iriel and I were stuck on a problem last night with the theorem prover and couldn't convince it to prove something fundamental |
| 16:02.21 | Shirik | in fact, the law is actually in the documentation, but it seems to remain unconvinced of its truth |
| 16:03.17 | Legorol | i saw your convo briefly :) |
| 16:03.20 | Legorol | it looked interesting |
| 16:04.04 | Shirik | I love this thing. I just wish I knew why it wasn't accepting my theorem |
| 16:04.56 | Legorol | if proven correct, it would destroy the universe? |
| 16:05.22 | Shirik | lol |
| 16:05.28 | Shirik | The documentation says it's true! |
| 16:05.31 | Legorol | or maybe ask good ol' Godel |
| 16:05.40 | Legorol | it's a true statement that can't be proven \o/ |
| 16:06.21 | Legorol | loves this channel |
| 16:06.32 | Legorol | I use this place to find intelligent people for any random intellectual topic :o) |
| 16:06.45 | Gnarfoz | blizz billing support is... totally overwhelmed *every* *fucking* day. |
| 16:13.30 | Vlakarados | I have a question about blocks in wow |
| 16:13.33 | Vlakarados | I mean shield blocks |
| 16:13.49 | Shirik | Well here's the problem Legorol |
| 16:14.00 | Legorol | go ahead Vlakarados |
| 16:14.04 | Vlakarados | if a hit puts a debuff on you, when you block |
| 16:14.07 | Vlakarados | does it put it? |
| 16:14.10 | Vlakarados | for example |
| 16:14.11 | Legorol | yes |
| 16:14.14 | Legorol | no |
| 16:14.15 | Vlakarados | hm |
| 16:14.16 | Legorol | depends :) |
| 16:14.26 | Vlakarados | for example rogue with poison |
| 16:14.29 | Shirik | The theorem prover is "learning" that is, every time you give it a theorem, it first proves the theorem. If it can prove it, then it can use that theorem in the future for future proofs. |
| 16:14.34 | DWSR | Does anyone know of a mod that will put the tabs for the chat frames on the bottom of the frames? |
| 16:14.39 | Shirik | But in order to "teach" it something, you have to give it a theorem it can prove |
| 16:14.54 | Vlakarados | DWSR today I had the same idea :) |
| 16:14.56 | Shirik | And I can't think of any way to simplify "if the real part of x is less than the real part of y, then x is less than y" |
| 16:15.05 | foxlit | So your base set of axioms is insufficient, Shirik? |
| 16:15.11 | Shirik | perhaps |
| 16:15.24 | DWSR | Vlakarados: Yeah, well I want my windows at the top of the screen, but the tabs are stopping me from nesting them right at the top, and the game automatically moves the frames down in order to make sure that the tabs are showing |
| 16:15.27 | Shirik | I find it unlikely that this could be missed, because it's so fundamental |
| 16:15.30 | Shirik | so I must be doing something wrong |
| 16:15.41 | Vlakarados | had the same problem some time ago |
| 16:15.50 | Vlakarados | I just want it for my ui |
| 16:15.53 | DWSR | What did you end up doing? |
| 16:16.31 | Vlakarados | nothing for now |
| 16:16.39 | DWSR | hrm. |
| 16:16.39 | Ackis | DRAGON AGE RAWR |
| 16:16.49 | Vlakarados | I'll try some tweaks for Fane |
| 16:17.01 | DWSR | Does anyone know if it's even possible to do this (put the chat frame tabs on the bottom of the frame)? |
| 16:17.42 | Ackis | DRAGON AGE |
| 16:17.47 | Ackis | talk |
| 16:17.48 | Ackis | about |
| 16:17.49 | Ackis | DRAGON AGE |
| 16:18.13 | zenzelezz | dragon age, the often forgotten age |
| 16:18.23 | zenzelezz | somewhere in-between iron age and stone age |
| 16:18.39 | Fisker | slaps zenzelezz around a bit with a large trout |
| 16:18.40 | Fisker | slaps Ackis around a bit with a large trout |
| 16:18.43 | Fisker | slaps Shirik around a bit with a large trout |
| 16:18.49 | Fisker | jerks |
| 16:19.16 | Ackis | DRAGON AGE |
| 16:19.27 | Ackis | Fisker: you slapped him so hard he went afk |
| 16:20.21 | mikma | shirik|afk / cairenn|afk / haste / wobwork : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2guQYivZ6w |
| 16:21.52 | Ackis | DRAGON AGE |
| 16:22.39 | foxlit | heh, radial menu, Ackis. |
| 16:23.20 | haste | mikma: old! |
| 16:23.35 | Ackis | foxlit: yes it's annoying :( but I kill stuff pew pew pew! |
| 16:23.55 | Ackis | I just pretend every enemy is Fisker and I kill them all |
| 16:24.14 | mikma | haste: fak juu! |
| 16:27.39 | haste | mikma: you posted it to me before :P |
| 16:28.14 | mikma | haste: hell no i didn't :O |
| 16:28.23 | mikma | haste: as much as i would love to take credit |
| 16:29.04 | Fisker | stop right there haste |
| 16:29.35 | Fisker | old btw mikma |
| 16:30.18 | mikma | fisker: new to you, i know |
| 16:30.32 | mikma | and i also know you are just copying haste now |
| 16:31.53 | Fisker | i would never copy a norwegian |
| 16:32.10 | msoul | Anyone knows of an addon that works with dominos for range |
| 16:32.16 | *** join/#wowuidev soufron (n=soufron@did75-14-82-236-19-233.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 16:32.37 | msoul | redrange seems outdated or it does conflict with blizz range |
| 16:36.18 | *** join/#wowuidev zeheres (n=crs@dslb-084-061-018-202.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 16:37.50 | *** join/#wowuidev kdtresh|work (n=kdtresh|@76.212.99.109) |
| 16:41.04 | Seerah | what's blizz range? I use red range with dominos |
| 16:42.35 | msoul | Seerah: Doesn't work for meand it says in readme file |
| 16:42.42 | msoul | me even |
| 16:43.18 | Seerah | says what in the read me? |
| 16:43.23 | msoul | sec |
| 16:43.37 | msoul | v1.1 2008-03-26 |
| 16:43.38 | msoul | * Small update to try and avoid out-of-sync problems with Blizz range highlight |
| 16:43.49 | Ackis | RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR http://bit.ly/2Dbch9 |
| 16:44.14 | msoul | Nothing new in v1.2 except the updated part for 3.x |
| 16:44.26 | Seerah | msoul: does it say that it didn't fix it? ;) |
| 16:44.46 | msoul | It does yet it doesn't work for me :) |
| 16:45.10 | Seerah | I and many many others use RedRange with Dominos, and the Dominos page even says: "You can use the following to add extra functionality: -RedRange - Colors action buttons red when out of range" |
| 16:45.20 | Seerah | "doesn't work" is very vague and generic |
| 16:46.19 | msoul | Hmmm |
| 16:46.28 | msoul | Did you do any special setting to get it to work? |
| 16:46.28 | Seerah | what doesn't work? |
| 16:46.31 | Seerah | no |
| 16:46.48 | msoul | You dragged the redrange folder to addons only? |
| 16:46.54 | Seerah | what doesn't work? |
| 16:46.59 | zenzelezz | are you getting any error messages? |
| 16:47.06 | msoul | RedRange |
| 16:47.11 | Seerah | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:47.23 | Seerah | yes, but errors? is it enabled? is it on the addon selection menu? |
| 16:47.31 | msoul | And no I'm not. I switched to dominos yesterday, bartender4 has it already |
| 16:47.34 | Seerah | turning red at wrong time? |
| 16:47.45 | msoul | doeasn't turn red at all |
| 16:47.55 | Seerah | is it enabled? is it on the addon selection menu? |
| 16:48.06 | msoul | yes it is |
| 16:48.10 | Seerah | did you check "load out of date addons?" |
| 16:48.19 | msoul | Aye |
| 16:48.29 | msoul | trying one more time |
| 16:48.33 | msoul | getting out of dalaran sec |
| 16:49.14 | msoul | Weird |
| 16:49.24 | msoul | I tried everything before until now |
| 16:49.33 | msoul | Now works like a charm |
| 16:49.40 | msoul | I blame Seerah |
| 16:49.43 | foxlit | Addons smell fear. |
| 16:49.46 | msoul | you scared it :) |
| 16:49.52 | Seerah | heh :) |
| 16:50.00 | *** join/#wowuidev Torhal (n=callahan@74-132-200-5.dhcp.insightbb.com) |
| 16:50.08 | msoul | switched to load of addons |
| 16:50.14 | Seerah | huh? |
| 16:50.28 | msoul | i am trying new addons |
| 16:50.44 | msoul | i.e. dominos instead of bt4 |
| 16:51.10 | Seerah | ahh |
| 16:51.15 | msoul | only addon i need to set it up right is fortexorcist |
| 16:51.37 | msoul | as it displays all spells on boss instead of just mine so i can keep track on my deseases |
| 16:51.48 | Seerah | sighs... o.forums down again |
| 16:52.08 | foxlit | http://media.curse.com/Curse.Projects.ProjectImages/16777/16446/filters.jpg yikes. |
| 16:52.10 | msoul | I'm trying to avoif forums |
| 16:52.17 | msoul | avoid |
| 16:52.45 | zenzelezz | foxlit: needs moar opshuns |
| 16:52.58 | Seerah | foxlit: fun, huh? ;) |
| 16:53.03 | msoul | i don't know maybe it's me but i truly find it weird to apply to join a guild and tell your wow life story for the guild you're applying to |
| 16:53.10 | Seerah | at least the buttons at the bottom serve as shortcuts |
| 16:53.27 | foxlit | It's all in one scrollframe? |
| 16:53.32 | Seerah | yep. |
| 16:53.33 | foxlit | I thought each one opened a different tab. |
| 16:54.52 | *** join/#wowuidev Trela_ (n=alexia@c-69-136-65-241.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 16:56.04 | Seerah | ohhh... is battlenet site down for login, not forums. /sigh anyway |
| 16:56.52 | zenzelezz | poor Seerah |
| 16:57.03 | Seerah | I wanted to finally download the ptr, too |
| 16:58.07 | Legorol | halp: can someone point me to the right wowwiki page that discusses how chat messages nowadays are handled? |
| 16:58.15 | Legorol | yes i'm a complete beginner on that one, and i can't find it |
| 16:58.28 | foxlit | When you say handled, do you mean filtering? |
| 16:59.21 | Legorol | more basic then that |
| 16:59.30 | *** join/#wowuidev ckknight (n=ckknight@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/CurseStaff/CurseForge/ckknight) |
| 16:59.30 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o ckknight] by ChanServ |
| 16:59.32 | Legorol | my knowledge of chat messages ended with events like CHAT_MSG_SAY |
| 16:59.41 | Legorol | i understand that doesn't exist anymore.. so what next? |
| 16:59.49 | Legorol | if there is no wowwiki page, i can go read UI code |
| 17:00.00 | foxlit | My understanding is that all of those events are still how chat is done. |
| 17:00.09 | Seerah | http://wowprogramming.com/docs/events |
| 17:00.11 | foxlit | I could've missed the memo, but that should be it. |
| 17:00.14 | Seerah | they're all still there |
| 17:00.28 | Legorol | Seerah: i looked there too, but it claims CHAT_MSG_SAY doesn't exist anymore |
| 17:00.42 | Legorol | have a look at this: http://wowprogramming.com/docs/events/CHAT_MSG_SAY |
| 17:00.47 | foxlit | "This function no longer exists in the current version of World of Warcraft" |
| 17:00.50 | Legorol | exactly |
| 17:00.51 | foxlit | Meh. |
| 17:01.00 | foxlit | Test it in game, tbh. |
| 17:01.25 | Fisker | i think someone earlier was saying the site was fucked up atm |
| 17:01.26 | foxlit | Still occurs. |
| 17:02.04 | Fisker | http://wowprogramming.com/docs/events/PLAYER_ENTERING_WORLD |
| 17:02.12 | Fisker | I think we can all agree that exists :3 |
| 17:02.16 | Seerah | haha |
| 17:02.30 | Legorol | ok, so i was misled and confused by the site :D |
| 17:02.32 | Legorol | phew |
| 17:02.35 | foxlit | Legorol: the closest you can get on wowwiki is probably http://www.wowwiki.com/API#Chat_Window_Functions |
| 17:02.36 | Legorol | i thought i had to go back to basics |
| 17:02.41 | Legorol | thank |
| 17:02.46 | foxlit | But that won't cover the architecture, just describe the API. |
| 17:02.48 | Fisker | slaps jnwhiteh around a bit with a large trout |
| 17:03.50 | DWSR | Can anyone tell me if it's possible to move the chat tabs from the top of the frame to the bottom? |
| 17:04.01 | DWSR | And if so, how I might be able to pull it off? |
| 17:04.35 | foxlit | It's certainly possible. You could mess with anchors and graphics and framexml. |
| 17:05.25 | DWSR | Would I be able to to stop the game from pushing the chat frame away from the top edge of the screen when I position it too close? |
| 17:06.35 | foxlit | Probably; depends on how that's implemented and how much you're willing to mess with things. |
| 17:07.57 | foxlit | FCF_StopDragging -> FCF_ValidateChatFramePosition |
| 17:08.50 | DWSR | I'm basically looking right now for a way to just stop the chat frames from getting pushed away from the top edge of the screen right now. |
| 17:08.53 | foxlit | It actually adjust things based on the tab position |
| 17:10.49 | foxlit | http://pastey.net/127567, but then you get to fix the other fun issues that occur. |
| 17:13.13 | DWSR | Like? |
| 17:13.55 | Fisker | slaps DWSR around a bit with a large trout |
| 17:14.34 | foxlit | Things expecting the tabs to be in wrong places. |
| 17:16.49 | DWSR | Except for Prat, what else would that even be? |
| 17:17.39 | sylvanaar | dont blame me |
| 17:18.02 | foxlit | Other parts of FrameXML, of course. :) |
| 17:18.08 | DWSR | sylvanaar: lol, I'm not. Prat's got the ability to manipulate the chat tabs, I would expect that to fully break if I were to do that. |
| 17:19.39 | *** join/#wowuidev Aeyan (n=pancake@cpe-174-098-002-214.triad.res.rr.com) |
| 17:22.20 | sylvanaar | no idea...chatframes are scary |
| 17:22.31 | DWSR | mhm |
| 17:23.37 | sylvanaar | they are seriously - so much of the game goes through them in one way or another |
| 17:24.27 | DWSR | anyway, foxlit, that pastey, can I just one-liner that? |
| 17:24.43 | *** join/#wowuidev Dewin (n=Daniel@c-71-59-222-35.hsd1.or.comcast.net) |
| 17:24.43 | foxlit | You can run it, observe what breaks, and extend it. |
| 17:24.54 | foxlit | Reload wipes it, so you aren't any sort of permanent trouble. |
| 17:25.26 | Thunder_Child | you hope |
| 17:25.42 | foxlit | I ran it :) |
| 17:26.33 | foxlit | The next issue is that hovering over the chat frame pops up the buttons, but you can't interact with them as they're hidden as soon as you leave the region where they/the chat frame *should* be rather than are. |
| 17:27.08 | foxlit | So I guess that means there's a HitRect thing that you have to change (at best), or some other implementation of MouseIsOver that you'll have to convince to see things your way at worst. |
| 17:31.10 | *** join/#wowuidev Lopeppeppy (n=Lopeppep@cpe-67-246-40-12.nycap.res.rr.com) |
| 17:31.10 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v Lopeppeppy] by ChanServ |
| 17:35.20 | mikma | damn |
| 17:35.28 | mikma | where's tekkub when i have some cool stuff for him :DDDD |
| 17:35.30 | mikma | http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/4547642-hairless-bears |
| 17:37.28 | DWSR | Is it bad that I just taped my screen so that I could line everything up correctly on my UI? |
| 17:37.44 | Stanzilla | yes because there is an addon for that |
| 17:38.01 | DWSR | align doesn't work with UI scale. |
| 17:38.57 | DWSR | nvm. |
| 17:39.00 | DWSR | I need to reload my UI more. |
| 17:43.33 | *** join/#wowuidev Aqua (n=Aquavett@74-137-181-161.dhcp.insightbb.com) |
| 17:44.58 | Twisol | anyone have any decent suggestions for easy addons to write? |
| 17:46.52 | foxlit | Improve the vendor interface. |
| 17:47.21 | foxlit | Things I want to buy should appear on the first page. |
| 17:47.36 | foxlit | If I'm interacting with some badge vendor, my badge currency should be shown instead of gold. |
| 17:47.57 | *** join/#wowuidev baco (i=4feac8d8@gateway/web/freenode/x-2c45abcace6c29d8) |
| 17:47.59 | baco | hi |
| 17:48.17 | foxlit | Display my faction discount somewhere, too |
| 17:48.42 | baco | how can i save a color to a variable so i can say ... SetColor(xyz) instead of SetColor(1, 0, 0)? |
| 17:48.42 | Twisol | heh |
| 17:49.09 | Twisol | baco - one variable won't be able to expand into three |
| 17:49.41 | Twisol | save the RGB triplet in a table and use its values: rgb = {1, 0, 0}; SetColor(rgb[1], rgb[2], rgb[3]) |
| 17:50.08 | baco | so i couldn't store the result of GetColor to a variable? |
| 17:50.30 | Twisol | I'm sure you can... but what if GetColor returns more than one valeu? |
| 17:50.31 | Twisol | *value |
| 17:50.33 | Twisol | lemme look |
| 17:50.52 | durcyn | !api GetColor |
| 17:50.52 | lua_bot | Found 6 possible results for 'GetColor': ColorSelect:GetColorValueTexture, ColorSelect:GetColorWheelTexture, ColorSelect:GetColorWheelThumbTexture, ColorSelect:GetColorRGB, ColorSelect:GetColorHSV, ColorSelect:GetColorValueThumbTexture |
| 17:51.15 | Twisol | !api ColorSelect:GetColorRGB |
| 17:51.15 | lua_bot | ColorSelect:GetColorRGB: Returns the red, green and blue components of the currently selected color (http://wowprogramming.com/docs/widgets/ColorSelect/GetColorRGB) |
| 17:51.30 | Twisol | Yeah, it returns three values |
| 17:51.41 | Twisol | R, G, B = ColorSelect:GetColorRGB() |
| 17:52.04 | baco | thanks |
| 17:52.08 | Twisol | could easily encapsulate that into a table: rgbcolor = {ColorSelect:GetColorRGB()} |
| 17:52.10 | Twisol | welcome |
| 17:57.58 | baco | what would be a performant way to check if usr has max health or mana? i've seen other addons use onupdate or onevent. is there a better way than that? |
| 17:58.35 | foxlit | No. |
| 17:59.04 | baco | :( |
| 17:59.06 | baco | ok thanks |
| 17:59.06 | foxlit | I think you've covered almost all entry points. |
| 17:59.15 | Twisol | I'm sure these fine people know more than I, but I'm curious. Do you just want to check the values or be alerted when it changes from full to non-full (and vice versa) |
| 17:59.41 | baco | would be enough to know if full or not full |
| 18:00.07 | Twisol | Figured. Sounds like the On* hooks you mentioned are probably best. |
| 18:00.25 | foxlit | The real question is *why* would you like to know? |
| 18:00.49 | foxlit | What's more efficient depends on how you'll actually use that information. |
| 18:00.53 | Twisol | ^ |
| 18:01.03 | Twisol | that's what Iw as getting at :> |
| 18:01.12 | foxlit | For instance, if you wanted to make a macro to output some text message if your target is at max health, you should really just check in the macro. |
| 18:01.14 | baco | some addons use it to show a reminder to switch aspects, like turning off or on aspect of the viper |
| 18:01.23 | foxlit | If you wanted to smoothly update some health bar, you should use OnUpdate |
| 18:01.46 | foxlit | If you wanted to display some warning, but weren't too picky about timing, the UNIT_POWER/UNIT_HEALTH events are the right way to go. |
| 18:02.57 | baco | thanks ill look that one up |
| 18:03.34 | Pneu^ | use onhealth and check against the last health reported so you don't spam code though, as unithealth is limited a bit iirc |
| 18:03.38 | Pneu^ | *onupdate |
| 18:07.43 | cog|work | wants a friday |
| 18:08.05 | Twisol | heh |
| 18:08.11 | foxlit | QQ |
| 18:08.16 | Twisol | I just got my wisdom teeth out yesterday. >_< |
| 18:08.36 | foxlit | The *generator* for our problem instances takes longer than my new solver. |
| 18:08.37 | cog|work | did they give you some nice drugs? |
| 18:08.47 | Twisol | Vicodin, so now I feel like House. |
| 18:08.54 | foxlit | And the validator *crashes*. |
| 18:08.57 | Twisol | but I haven't needed it yet, no pain. Just soreness. |
| 18:14.07 | cog|work | I was pretty much the same way. I was eating chips again after 2-3 days. Mrs. Cog on the other hand ... her teeth were so cramped and her jaw's so small that they actually had to bend it to get back there. |
| 18:14.13 | cog|work | she was out of commission for a couple weeks. |
| 18:15.51 | Twisol | :( |
| 18:16.00 | Twisol | My jaw joints are pretty sore |
| 18:16.05 | Twisol | it's hard to open and close all the way |
| 18:17.21 | Twisol | on the other hand, it's better than the pain I had before the operation |
| 18:17.58 | Twisol | got a bit of food under the gum where a tooth was protruding, and it got inflamed overnight. And it put pressure on a nerve. Ow. |
| 18:20.06 | amro | is there a way to retrieve a lua function that was passed as an argument to a C function? similar to luaL_checknumber |
| 18:20.24 | *** join/#wowuidev Ruck (n=bleh@pool-72-86-106-233.aubnin.fios.verizon.net) |
| 18:20.35 | Twisol | well, you can't retrieve it from the stack as a C value |
| 18:20.47 | amro | is there any way to keep track of it? |
| 18:20.49 | Twisol | but you can still operate on it if you check lua_isfunction(L, idx) |
| 18:20.51 | Twisol | sure |
| 18:21.01 | Twisol | how do you mean? |
| 18:21.04 | Twisol | do you want to store it somewhere? |
| 18:21.06 | amro | basically, I need to store it somewhere and call it later |
| 18:21.15 | Twisol | mmk, from the same function or a different one? |
| 18:21.26 | amro | different, later on |
| 18:21.28 | amro | it's like a callback |
| 18:21.35 | Twisol | the registry might be a good place to put it |
| 18:21.38 | foxlit | It's like :SetScript |
| 18:21.39 | amro | so I need to push it on the stack again |
| 18:21.49 | amro | exactly like setscript |
| 18:21.56 | Twisol | use lua_pushvalue(L, idx) to copy it to the top of the stack |
| 18:21.56 | amro | in fact it's called setscript too |
| 18:22.57 | amro | and then? |
| 18:23.31 | Twisol | you'd do lua_pushliteral(L, "Mycallback") (or something like that) for the key, lua_pushvalue(L, idx_of_callback_on_stack) for the value, and lua_rawset(L, LUA_REGISTRYINDEX) to store it |
| 18:23.34 | Twisol | at least, I believe so |
| 18:23.55 | Twisol | I've never touched the registry before, but it should work that way |
| 18:24.21 | Twisol | just be sure the registry key won't clash with a key another C extension might be using |
| 18:24.37 | amro | Twisol: that won't be a problem, thanks |
| 18:24.43 | Twisol | sure |
| 18:26.33 | kdtresh|work | love it when the wow launcher pops up ie script errors |
| 18:29.50 | *** join/#wowuidev Droolio (n=drool@87-194-188-170.bethere.co.uk) |
| 18:29.55 | baco | bye |
| 18:30.11 | Lopeppeppy | Sweet. |
| 18:30.24 | Lopeppeppy | The launcher hasn't worked for me for a few patches now, I just use the .exe instead. |
| 18:31.04 | Twisol | Works fine for me. O_o |
| 18:31.21 | Lopeppeppy | I am broken. We know this about Peppy. |
| 18:31.30 | Twisol | Heh |
| 18:31.49 | kdtresh|work | at least you get lots of huggles though ;) |
| 18:32.26 | zenzelezz | glues peppy back together |
| 18:32.28 | Lopeppeppy | I do, it is good to be the Peppy sometimes. |
| 18:32.42 | Lopeppeppy | seriously zenzelezz, I need it today. I am soooo broken. |
| 18:32.53 | zenzelezz | I'm here for you |
| 18:33.06 | zenzelezz | but I thought they called it "draenei" these days, not "broken" |
| 18:33.21 | Lopeppeppy | No, this is broken. |
| 18:33.33 | Twisol | This is sparta. |
| 18:33.35 | kdtresh|work | i thought the broken rebuked the draenei |
| 18:33.38 | Lopeppeppy | I impressed my doctor with the strength of my allergic reaction. How broken do you have to be, to make your doctor go "woah" |
| 18:33.46 | Twisol | O_o |
| 18:33.53 | Twisol | Allergic to what? :( |
| 18:33.53 | DWSR | Can you get a Sexy Cooldown bar to be longer than 10 minutes? |
| 18:33.56 | zenzelezz | peppy: allergic reaction to what? |
| 18:34.23 | Lopeppeppy | the adhesive on some bandages I was using to cover up a minor surgery site. |
| 18:34.35 | Twisol | Ouch. |
| 18:34.55 | Lopeppeppy | Blisters, breathing problems, rash, sniffly/sneezy/watery eyes... it was the blisters and the wheezing that impressed him, for a topical allergy. |
| 18:35.17 | Lopeppeppy | Can you say, "multiple chemical sensitivities", children? |
| 18:35.28 | zenzelezz | what do I get if I can? |
| 18:35.29 | Twisol | Heheh :( |
| 18:35.42 | Twisol | Would you rather have that or a wisdom tooth extraction? |
| 18:35.49 | Lopeppeppy | I'm patch-testing the topical stuff he gave me, to make sure i'm not allergic to THAT before I use it for real! |
| 18:35.51 | DWSR | Wisdom teeth |
| 18:36.00 | DWSR | Wisdom teeth extraction isn't potentially fatal. |
| 18:36.06 | kdtresh|work | actually it can be |
| 18:36.07 | zenzelezz | pulling teeth isn't usually bad |
| 18:36.09 | Twisol | It can be.. |
| 18:36.33 | DWSR | Find me a recent (last 10 years) case of a person dying specifically from a tooth extraction. |
| 18:36.41 | DWSR | And I'll be inclined to agree. Until then, bullshit. |
| 18:36.43 | Twisol | would be from complications |
| 18:37.13 | Twisol | at any rate, there's a slim chance of permanent nerve damage, rarely |
| 18:37.14 | zenzelezz | just bite down on the cotton and keep bacteria out of your mouth until the wound closes |
| 18:37.46 | Twisol | I just had mine done. (To be honest, I'd prefer the extraction over the allergy too) |
| 18:37.56 | amro | DWSR: the extraction itself probably not, but the anesthetic might kill you if it's not injected properly |
| 18:38.18 | DWSR | amro: But that could just as easily happen during a minor surgery, so your point is not valid. |
| 18:38.21 | kdtresh|work | DWSR: http://www.teethremoval.com/death.html |
| 18:38.40 | Twisol | I went out like a light. Didn't even see it coming. XD |
| 18:38.44 | amro | DWSR: it is valid, I never implied it was unique to tooth extraction |
| 18:38.53 | Twisol | "Okay, we're going to put something in to help your anxiety, but it won't put you out..." |
| 18:38.56 | Twisol | ..*clunk* |
| 18:38.58 | DWSR | lol |
| 18:39.08 | DWSR | Twisol: I wasn't under general for mine. |
| 18:39.09 | Twisol | I can just imagine hearing "Oops?" |
| 18:39.21 | DWSR | Nitrous = worst hangover ever. |
| 18:39.25 | kdtresh|work | i had novocaine for mine |
| 18:39.26 | Twisol | Eeergh. |
| 18:39.34 | Twisol | I was put on nitrous oxide for my root canal |
| 18:39.38 | Twisol | but I couldn't stand it |
| 18:39.43 | Twisol | I just went without and had the local |
| 18:39.56 | kdtresh|work | it's an unfortunate feeling when the dentist is putting his whole weight onto a spike in your tooth |
| 18:40.02 | DWSR | kdtresh|work: Most of those I see are not specificly from the extraction |
| 18:40.36 | kdtresh|work | DWSR: possibly, but the extraction kinda requires some other things, it's not like getting a flu shot |
| 18:40.41 | amro | DWSR: they walked in for an extraction, they ended up dead |
| 18:40.50 | Twisol | DWSR: Any surgery can have complications. Saying, for example, that anasthetic misuse isn't related directly to the extraction doesn't mean you can't die during one |
| 18:40.50 | zenzelezz | I have no idea what kind of anaesthetic my dentist uses, only that it tastes pretty bad |
| 18:40.59 | DWSR | lol |
| 18:41.20 | DWSR | Twisol: Right, but as I have experienced, you don't need to be under general to get your tooth extracted. |
| 18:41.29 | Twisol | Quite so. |
| 18:41.39 | Twisol | but as I have experienced, you can be. |
| 18:41.40 | *** join/#wowuidev ZorbaBeta (i=tocohl@maximilian.pavlovian.net) |
| 18:41.47 | Twisol | depends on choices and what's going on |
| 18:41.51 | DWSR | ZorbaBeta: ping |
| 18:42.11 | amro | well normally you wouldn't be given anesthetic if there's a chance it would kill you |
| 18:42.22 | Twisol | heheh. |
| 18:42.35 | ZorbaBeta | pong |
| 18:42.40 | DWSR | Twisol: My surgeon was just like "I do nitrous for all my patients unless there's some medical reason not to" |
| 18:42.49 | DWSR | ZorbaBeta: I figured out why I use LH and QH in combination. |
| 18:42.53 | DWSR | ZorbaBeta: Cave entrances. |
| 18:43.00 | Twisol | DWSR: I specifically wanted to be put out for it. |
| 18:43.12 | Twisol | I heard they had to cut one of the wisdoms clean in half. I don't want to be there for that. |
| 18:43.17 | DWSR | Ah. |
| 18:43.18 | *** join/#wowuidev AbsolutRayne (n=chatzill@XPLR-MCI-74-127-239-30.barrettxplore.com) |
| 18:43.21 | ZorbaBeta | ah, that makes sense |
| 18:43.31 | DWSR | I had 4 impacted wisdom teeth and they still only used nitrous. |
| 18:43.48 | AbsolutRayne | Correct me if im wrong, guys, but theres no point in being past the soft ArP Cap because it basically doesnt do anything? |
| 18:43.48 | Twisol | I had one, buuut it didnt really hurt at all |
| 18:43.57 | DWSR | AbsolutRayne: Not true. |
| 18:44.04 | DWSR | If that was the case, it would be a hard cap. :D |
| 18:44.06 | AbsolutRayne | DWSR: Do explain, if you dont mind :) |
| 18:44.18 | AbsolutRayne | because im spreadsheeting something here and im kind of confused (for my Rogue) |
| 18:44.21 | DWSR | AbsolutRayne: The ArP soft cap is the point where ArP starts to become less useful as a stat. |
| 18:44.31 | DWSR | It's not like spell hit, where it becomes useless past the cap. |
| 18:44.43 | AbsolutRayne | Ok well, heres my Situation |
| 18:45.02 | DWSR | The soft cap for ArP basically assumes that you have 100% minus any procs ArP from gear/talents. |
| 18:45.32 | AbsolutRayne | Im going to (probably) pick up my T9.5 Legs tonight, which will put me over Soft Cap for ArP by a decent amount. If I gem some of my slots back to Agi/Crit, my DPS of course goes up, but having Grim Toll as one of my Trinkets would still yield better DPS than another trinket such as Blood of the Old God? |
| 18:45.51 | DWSR | Does the spreadsheet say that? |
| 18:45.56 | AbsolutRayne | Yes |
| 18:46.05 | AbsolutRayne | Which confuses me a bit |
| 18:46.26 | AbsolutRayne | I would think, logically, that GT would yield less DPS since im over Soft Cap, then a 1k+ AP Proc |
| 18:46.55 | DWSR | GT has a decent amount of crit, iirc. |
| 18:47.01 | AbsolutRayne | Hit |
| 18:47.06 | AbsolutRayne | Runestone has the Crit |
| 18:47.14 | AbsolutRayne | I wish I could get that bloody thing to drop so bad. |
| 18:47.16 | Twisol | what's ArP? |
| 18:47.24 | DWSR | Armor Penetration. |
| 18:47.28 | Twisol | Ah |
| 18:47.35 | DWSR | ArP is to differentiate it from AP which is attack power. |
| 18:48.00 | Twisol | They're getting rid of it in Cata, right? |
| 18:48.04 | DWSR | No. |
| 18:48.07 | Twisol | ? |
| 18:48.09 | DWSR | They're getting rid of it on gear. |
| 18:48.13 | Twisol | Ah |
| 18:48.26 | DWSR | The stat itself will still exist, but will be aquired through mastery instead. |
| 18:48.36 | Twisol | I see. |
| 18:48.46 | NightHawkTheSane | (presumably, obviously nothing is set in stone) |
| 18:49.02 | DWSR | ^^ |
| 18:49.05 | Twisol | Heheh *nod* |
| 18:49.16 | AbsolutRayne | DWSR: So yeah lol, im kind of confused a bit as to why, but if it says its still higher, i guess ill hang onto it |
| 18:49.29 | DWSR | AbsolutRayne: GT is a pretty OP trink, tbh. |
| 18:49.41 | AbsolutRayne | Yeah,especially for Combat Rogues |
| 18:49.44 | DWSR | AbsolutRayne: You need Uld25 hard mode or ToGC trinks to beat it. |
| 18:49.53 | DWSR | I'm leveling a shadow dance rogue atm. |
| 18:49.58 | DWSR | Good lord is that shit ever fun. |
| 18:50.03 | AbsolutRayne | Deaths Verdict only drops in pugs. Convinced of that fact. |
| 18:50.09 | DWSR | lol |
| 18:50.43 | Lopeppeppy | And only to other people. |
| 18:50.52 | AbsolutRayne | But yeah, Im running DMC Greatness and GT, the typical Combat Rogue combo :P |
| 18:50.52 | Ackis | I'm reading code I wrote a while ago and looking at it and going "how the hell is this working properly" :( |
| 18:50.53 | DWSR | Has anyone noticed "This space is intentionally left blank" on Google's hoempage today? |
| 18:51.05 | Ackis | anyone here use ARL and noticed the progress bar behaving weird? |
| 18:51.14 | DWSR | Ackis: Yes, and nope. |
| 18:51.24 | Ackis | DWSR: ... |
| 18:51.34 | AbsolutRayne | Ackis: Its obvious you broke it. :( |
| 18:51.36 | DWSR | Yes I use it, no it hasn't acted wierd. |
| 18:51.43 | Lopeppeppy | I still see them celebrating Sesame Street, DWSR |
| 18:52.00 | Ackis | AbsolutRayne: code in ARL is the same as in collectinator, but collectinator's code doesn't work |
| 18:52.17 | AbsolutRayne | Peppppppyyyyyyy |
| 18:52.19 | DWSR | Lopeppeppy: Highlight the from the radio buttons to the "Make Google My Homepage" link and paste it into notepad |
| 18:52.36 | Lopeppeppy | Why on earth would I do that? |
| 18:52.37 | amro | Twisol: quick question |
| 18:52.43 | Twisol | ? |
| 18:52.43 | DWSR | Lopeppeppy: Just try it. |
| 18:52.47 | amro | how do I get the stack index for the arg? |
| 18:52.51 | kdtresh|work | there are radio buttons on google's homepage? |
| 18:52.51 | DWSR | Lopeppeppy: You will see "This space intentionally left blank" |
| 18:53.14 | AbsolutRayne | Its nice seeing programmers with senses of humor these days. |
| 18:53.15 | Lopeppeppy | Sorry, I don't have radio buttons, my browser must render it differently than yours. |
| 18:53.16 | Twisol | amro: if the function is the nth argument to the function, the index will be n |
| 18:53.28 | AbsolutRayne | Lopeppeppy: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v442/SinOfDreams/WoWScrnShot_110309_145005.jpg Should I get rid of the Lineart on the Topleft and Topright? |
| 18:53.31 | amro | Twisol: ok, thanks |
| 18:53.33 | Twisol | print("Hello", "Hi") - "Hello" is at index 1 |
| 18:53.34 | Twisol | welcome |
| 18:54.11 | amro | I wasn't sure, since the args are called narg in the docs but all other indices are called index |
| 18:54.34 | *** join/#wowuidev Gryphon (n=gryphon@c-76-104-164-148.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) |
| 18:54.35 | Lopeppeppy | Topright serves a purpose. Topleft... well, if the buffs were IN it, it would be fine, but they look silly staggered out like that, so I'd lose that one. |
| 18:54.39 | Twisol | 'narg' sounds like num-args |
| 18:54.43 | Twisol | where's it say that? |
| 18:54.58 | amro | lua_Number luaL_checknumber (lua_State *L, int narg); |
| 18:55.06 | AbsolutRayne | Yeah, thats pretty much the response ive been getting for that. Thanks hun. :) |
| 18:55.12 | amro | as opposed to say, void lua_rawset (lua_State *L, int index); |
| 18:55.14 | Twisol | ah |
| 18:55.25 | Lopeppeppy | Glad to be part of the vocal majority. |
| 18:55.25 | DWSR | Lopeppeppy: I'm using Google.ca, so probably that's why? |
| 18:55.34 | Lopeppeppy | maybe ca is differenter. |
| 18:55.36 | AbsolutRayne | I figured Id ask one of my bigger fans first. :P |
| 18:55.38 | DWSR | AH. |
| 18:55.40 | DWSR | Nevermind. |
| 18:55.44 | Lopeppeppy | is a fanboi! |
| 18:55.44 | DWSR | It's an IE6 hack. |
| 18:55.47 | Lopeppeppy | er... |
| 18:55.54 | cog|work | http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/11/02/predatoreidolia/ |
| 18:56.04 | AbsolutRayne | Lopeppeppy: Thats going to be Iced Cherry Lite |
| 18:56.05 | DWSR | I just tried highlighting the same area in Chrome and there's nothing there. |
| 18:56.06 | AbsolutRayne | btw |
| 18:56.14 | Twisol | amro: all of the luaL_check* functions seem to call it narg |
| 18:56.32 | amro | yeah, which is why I was confused |
| 18:56.37 | Twisol | narg just means the number of the argument |
| 18:56.50 | Twisol | if you want the first argument it's 1 |
| 18:56.50 | *** join/#wowuidev Subdino (n=vincent@ALille-154-1-64-1.w86-198.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 18:57.01 | amro | I know, but if it's also the stack index, why not just call it index? |
| 18:57.07 | Twisol | no idea ;) |
| 18:57.10 | Twisol | ask in #lua |
| 18:57.42 | amro | unless it doesn't accept pseudoindices |
| 18:57.46 | amro | that's probably it |
| 18:57.59 | Lopeppeppy | Iced Light. Gotcha. |
| 18:58.17 | Twisol | That's probably it, yeah |
| 18:58.58 | AbsolutRayne | Just following my own UI Submission Process :P |
| 18:59.14 | AbsolutRayne | BBC > BBC LITE > ICED CHERRY > ICED LITE |
| 18:59.16 | AbsolutRayne | :P |
| 18:59.49 | *** join/#wowuidev krka (n=krka@c-177ae155.159-1-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) |
| 19:00.50 | Lopeppeppy | I suppose there's a pattern to be followed there. |
| 19:03.25 | Seerah | here's an interesting article: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_intel_antitrust |
| 19:04.15 | Lopeppeppy | Buddy Boy Cuomo does try hard to keep the waves stirred up. |
| 19:04.21 | *** part/#wowuidev Trela (n=Alexia@pa-67-234-204-174.dhcp.embarqhsd.net) |
| 19:04.30 | *** join/#wowuidev Trela (n=Alexia@pa-67-234-204-174.dhcp.embarqhsd.net) |
| 19:05.14 | AbsolutRayne | Oh, Satrinas Buff Frames, why do you lock up on me for no reason. |
| 19:05.20 | DWSR | AbsolutRayne: Never had a problem with SBF |
| 19:05.24 | *** join/#wowuidev Trela (n=Alexia@pa-67-234-204-174.dhcp.embarqhsd.net) |
| 19:05.25 | AbsolutRayne | And crash my world of Warcraft. |
| 19:05.29 | Lopeppeppy | Ungoodly |
| 19:05.42 | AbsolutRayne | DWSR: It must be something I have interfering with it, but occasionally when I open the Menu, itll lock up. |
| 19:06.20 | AbsolutRayne | Its probably EnhancedColourPicker, tbqh |
| 19:06.42 | DWSR | ^^ |
| 19:07.26 | AbsolutRayne | I need to stop using it as a DoTimer though lol |
| 19:08.34 | Twisol | I'm unused to seeing plugins that share the same script space... Is it strange/hard at times to make sure things don't clash? |
| 19:09.20 | NightHawkTheSane | not usually. sometimes things misbehave, though |
| 19:10.12 | Adys | http://garfieldminusgarfield.net/post/232920713 |
| 19:10.37 | Twisol | Is that the site showing how the guy is insane? |
| 19:11.57 | DWSR | yeah |
| 19:11.57 | cog|work | yep =) |
| 19:12.04 | NightHawkTheSane | insane is a relative term |
| 19:12.33 | Twisol | Hahahaha... Some of these are really funny. |
| 19:12.43 | Adys | Shirik|AFK: see |
| 19:12.49 | Adys | some people appreciate real humour |
| 19:13.14 | *** join/#wowuidev shkm (i=4df88a8c@gateway/web/freenode/session) |
| 19:13.21 | cog|work | damn you Adys |
| 19:13.25 | cog|work | becomes unproductive |
| 19:13.27 | shkm | Hello. Anyone know if there's a reasonable event that fires when stance/form is switched? Can't seem to find one. |
| 19:13.50 | Lopeppeppy | thinks cog was unproductive before, fo' sho' |
| 19:13.51 | cog|work | well there has to be given that the default ui knows when to change the ui |
| 19:13.58 | DWSR | ^^ |
| 19:14.04 | cog|work | one of the first places you could look is in the default ui code |
| 19:14.08 | Twisol | probably in FrameXML then, hm? |
| 19:14.09 | cog|work | or |
| 19:14.13 | cog|work | ~wowprogramming |
| 19:14.14 | purl | World of Warcraft Programming: A Guide and Reference for Creating WoW Addons ~ http://tinyurl.com/5hnxob ~ a book written by Cladhaire, Cogwheel and Kaelten, or the companion site and API reference available online for free at http://wowprogramming.com |
| 19:14.32 | Twisol | I have that book... although it's a bit yellowed and outdated now. |
| 19:14.35 | Twisol | >_< |
| 19:14.51 | shkm | I did check that, and I've done an event trace, but all I found is "UPDATE_SHAPESHIFT_COOLDOWN" |
| 19:14.59 | shkm | Perhaps that's it, though. |
| 19:15.08 | DWSR | http://wowprogramming.com/docs/events/UPDATE_SHAPESHIFT_FORM |
| 19:15.14 | Twisol | It wounds reasonable. |
| 19:15.31 | cog|work | heh wounds |
| 19:15.36 | DWSR | wait, no. |
| 19:15.42 | DWSR | That doesn't work with stances. |
| 19:15.47 | cog|work | it should |
| 19:15.58 | shkm | Actually I'm testing it on a warrior and that's the event that's getting fired. I was more concerned that it wouldn't work on a druid. |
| 19:15.58 | DWSR | says it doesn't. |
| 19:15.59 | cog|work | i thought |
| 19:16.00 | cog|work | oh |
| 19:16.03 | DWSR | Ah. |
| 19:16.18 | Twisol | "This function no longer exists in the current version of World of Warcraft"? |
| 19:16.25 | DWSR | Twisol: WoWProgramming's broked atm |
| 19:16.30 | shkm | WoWProgramming has that for quite a few events/functions that are still in. |
| 19:16.39 | Twisol | ahh. |
| 19:16.39 | DWSR | ok |
| 19:16.52 | Twisol | it says it doesn't apply to stances. |
| 19:16.53 | DWSR | TidyPlates: why tf can't I see anything to configure when I type /tidyplates? |
| 19:16.54 | Twisol | =/ |
| 19:17.00 | Seerah | it is UPDATE_SHAPESHIFT_FORM - I use it in EventEquip |
| 19:17.08 | cog|work | Twisol: it shouldn't say that then... |
| 19:17.11 | Seerah | DWSR: because the config isn't finished |
| 19:17.15 | shkm | Well, from WoWWiki: "Fired when the current form changes." That's what I'm after :-). |
| 19:17.20 | shkm | Thanks for confirming, Seerah. |
| 19:17.23 | Twisol | "but not warrior stances, paladin auras, or rogue stealth." |
| 19:17.28 | DWSR | Seerah: Screenshots have configuration stuff in them? |
| 19:17.49 | Seerah | DWSR: if you look, that's showing you how to turn on threat glow in default options |
| 19:18.02 | DWSR | ah, so it is. |
| 19:18.59 | Seerah | shkm: when that fires, you'll still have to check to see what form the character is in |
| 19:19.38 | DWSR | Seerah: alright, so how do I tell it I want to use the CleanPlates theme? |
| 19:20.01 | Seerah | By selecting that theme in the addon menu (only have one theme selected at a time) |
| 19:20.14 | DWSR | Ah. |
| 19:20.15 | Seerah | should have that in the description, iirc |
| 19:20.16 | DWSR | Thanks. |
| 19:20.30 | DWSR | It's a little ambiguous. |
| 19:20.36 | DWSR | Just says "download one of the available themes" |
| 19:21.54 | Lopeppeppy | Same way that button skins work, IIRC. They are "separate addons". |
| 19:21.54 | Seerah | hmm... wonder where I saw that then |
| 19:22.40 | DWSR | Seerah: Ok, so I downloaded a skin I don't like, I disabled it, but now tidyplates are stuck as that skin? :( |
| 19:23.05 | Seerah | If you disabled it, then it's code doesn't run and shouldn't affect hte plates |
| 19:23.34 | NightHawkTheSane | ooh, bbedit got ctags completion support |
| 19:25.07 | Ackis | !api unitname |
| 19:25.07 | lua_bot | Found 2 possible results for 'unitname': UnitName, GetUnitName |
| 19:25.10 | Ackis | bah give me a link you bastard bot |
| 19:25.21 | Twisol | !api UnitName |
| 19:25.22 | lua_bot | UnitName: Returns the name of a unit (http://wowprogramming.com/docs/api/UnitName) |
| 19:25.24 | Twisol | :P |
| 19:26.04 | cog|work | !api getunitname |
| 19:26.05 | lua_bot | GetUnitName: Returns a string summarizing a unit's name and server (http://wowprogramming.com/docs/api/GetUnitName) |
| 19:28.23 | *** join/#wowuidev mitchnull (n=mitchnul@catv3EC944A1.pool.t-online.hu) |
| 19:30.20 | Ackis | I GOOGLED IT |
| 19:30.22 | Ackis | too late you are! |
| 19:31.09 | *** join/#wowuidev alestane (n=nevin@c-66-30-209-28.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 19:31.09 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v alestane] by ChanServ |
| 19:31.18 | *** join/#wowuidev Riffage (n=nnscript@78-86-205-138.zone2.bethere.co.uk) |
| 19:33.49 | Lopeppeppy | Oh noes, the googles! |
| 19:34.32 | alestane | Are they in trouble? |
| 19:34.40 | Lopeppeppy | Oh noes. |
| 19:34.44 | Lopeppeppy | Are you? |
| 19:34.54 | shkm | !api barpage |
| 19:34.54 | lua_bot | Found 2 possible results for 'barpage': ChangeActionBarPage, GetActionBarPage |
| 19:35.04 | alestane | In trouble? Not sos I'd noticed |
| 19:35.09 | Lopeppeppy | Then we're good. |
| 19:35.35 | alestane | is completely confused. Mission accomplished? |
| 19:35.47 | shkm | !api GetActionBarPage |
| 19:35.47 | lua_bot | GetActionBarPage: Returns the current action bar page (http://wowprogramming.com/docs/api/GetActionBarPage) |
| 19:38.35 | *** join/#wowuidev tekkub (n=tekkub@WoWUIDev/WoWI/Featured/Dongle/GitHub/Tekkub) |
| 19:38.35 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v tekkub] by ChanServ |
| 19:41.53 | shkm | !api actionbar_update_cooldown |
| 19:41.53 | lua_bot | ACTIONBAR_UPDATE_COOLDOWN: Fires when the cooldown for an action bar item begins or ends (http://wowprogramming.com/docs/events/ACTIONBAR_UPDATE_COOLDOWN) |
| 19:46.39 | *** join/#wowuidev Doow (n=Miranda@bams-c153.cust.svensktbredband.se) |
| 19:47.50 | Seerah | wow - this second one is a minivan! http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/autos_content_landing_pages/1157/the-shape-of-things-to-come2009-tokyo-auto-show/ |
| 19:49.55 | Lopeppeppy | The basket will be the favorite of serial killers everywhere. |
| 19:51.31 | Seerah | it so looks like a plastic toy |
| 19:54.43 | *** join/#wowuidev svenadh (n=sven@p57A49B38.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 20:09.24 | *** join/#wowuidev zeheres (n=crs@dslb-084-061-032-137.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 20:09.50 | *** join/#wowuidev Ose (n=chatzill@wikia/Ose) |
| 20:10.35 | *** join/#wowuidev Repo (n=supybot@repos.curseforge.net) |
| 20:26.11 | *** part/#wowuidev mitchnull (n=mitchnul@catv3EC944A1.pool.t-online.hu) |
| 20:28.04 | Ackis | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=20677775733&sid=1 wow |
| 20:28.12 | Ackis | blizzard selling ingame stuff now |
| 20:29.32 | zenzelezz | cool |
| 20:29.42 | alestane | Given the number of other games incorporating it into their business model, I'm inclined to say it was a matter of time. |
| 20:29.57 | zenzelezz | I can never read "Lil' K.T." and not think "Little Katie" |
| 20:30.19 | NightHawkTheSane | Ackis: they've been selling in game stuff ever since the CCG was released, really |
| 20:30.22 | *** join/#wowuidev A-KO (i=as@c-69-143-90-155.hsd1.md.comcast.net) |
| 20:30.27 | NightHawkTheSane | this is no different. |
| 20:31.03 | NightHawkTheSane | also just went and purchaesd both pets. :( |
| 20:31.12 | NightHawkTheSane | may have a problem |
| 20:31.20 | ZorbaBeta | I still wish they'd switch to the eve/puzzle-pirates trade-real-money-for-ingame-money system |
| 20:31.22 | *** join/#wowuidev Lunessa (n=chatzill@WoWUIDev/Lunessa) |
| 20:32.17 | Lunessa | Station |
| 20:32.28 | NightHawkTheSane | I think they're trying to avoid the real-money-for-in-game benefit situation. |
| 20:34.54 | ZorbaBeta | alright, the one thing that bugs me - I really really think these pets should not count towards achievements. |
| 20:35.05 | NightHawkTheSane | why? |
| 20:35.06 | NeoTron | wow |
| 20:35.09 | NeoTron | who cares |
| 20:35.14 | NightHawkTheSane | achievements are, really, just as useless as the pets :P |
| 20:35.19 | NeoTron | zopmg he got 20 pixels more than me bc he haz monies |
| 20:35.20 | NeoTron | wah wah |
| 20:35.28 | ZorbaBeta | so is epic loot, by that metric :P |
| 20:35.31 | Twisol | why not? if they're not exclusive to these special pets, then why not? |
| 20:35.38 | Twisol | you can get them with any normal pet |
| 20:35.39 | Twisol | (s) |
| 20:35.47 | NeoTron | epic loot has an in-game benefit |
| 20:35.52 | ZorbaBeta | twisol, because as they increase the number of pets available, those achievements get much easier for those who fork over money for them |
| 20:35.57 | NeoTron | (if diminished these days) |
| 20:36.01 | ZorbaBeta | neotron, so do achievements. it's just a matter of different goals. |
| 20:36.02 | NeoTron | pets and achievements are epeen |
| 20:36.07 | NeoTron | no they don't |
| 20:36.08 | ZorbaBeta | so is epic loot :P |
| 20:36.15 | Twisol | honestly I don't think it's that big of a deal in this case |
| 20:36.24 | ZorbaBeta | seriously you cannot come up with any objective reason why "killing bosses" is a more valid goal than "collecting achievements" |
| 20:36.26 | Trela | It is cool that they are donating money too. |
| 20:36.27 | NightHawkTheSane | ZorbaBeta: at this point, two purchasable pets on top of >100 not-terribly-hard-to-obtain pets is not a big deal :P |
| 20:36.35 | NeoTron | you're comparing apples (fluff that doesn't affect game play)_ with oranges (things that makes you hit harder, heal better) |
| 20:36.41 | ZorbaBeta | nighthawk, I agree, but they're gonna be adding more pets :P |
| 20:36.56 | NightHawkTheSane | almost certainly |
| 20:36.57 | ZorbaBeta | neotron, no, I'm comparing apples (bits on a computer screen that tell you you're awesome) to apples (different bits on a computer screen that tell you you're awesome) |
| 20:37.00 | Trela | Though, $5 out of the $10 price for a digital item that takes nothing to duplicate? Just donate all of it! |
| 20:37.09 | NeoTron | I fully and completely disagree |
| 20:37.21 | NightHawkTheSane | Trela: yeah, i was a little disappointed by that. *shrug* |
| 20:37.39 | NeoTron | there's a large difference between cosmetical items and items with measurable benefit |
| 20:37.57 | NeoTron | which si also why I doubt we'll ever see Blizzard selling the latter, while the former probably will increase in availability |
| 20:38.03 | ZorbaBeta | neotron, you're missing my point |
| 20:38.07 | NeoTron | no I am not |
| 20:38.11 | NeoTron | I see your point and I invalidate it |
| 20:38.15 | NightHawkTheSane | ZorbaBeta: gear (and gear related items) directly affect how much in game content you're able to see/experience, and your success in doing so. Pets, mounts, titles, achievements, all do not. |
| 20:38.16 | NeoTron | because it's fail :P |
| 20:38.25 | NightHawkTheSane | that's the key differential |
| 20:38.27 | ZorbaBeta | I'm saying that the only measurable benefit you get is one out of maybe six different things in the game |
| 20:38.33 | ZorbaBeta | nighthawk, I'm saying that not everyone has the same goals in life |
| 20:38.42 | ZorbaBeta | what you're doing is saying that there is only one valid way to play the game |
| 20:38.50 | Twisol | heh. |
| 20:38.54 | ZorbaBeta | it's the exact same thing that the hardcore arena junkies, or the hardcore pve junkies, or anyone else does. |
| 20:39.12 | NightHawkTheSane | ZorbaBeta: no, i'm saying blizzards defenition of in-game progression is not one of fluff. |
| 20:39.15 | ZorbaBeta | and ironically everyone then yells at each other for being so shortsighted as to clearly be playing the game the wrong way :P |
| 20:39.21 | ZorbaBeta | blizzard doesn't *have* a definition. |
| 20:39.25 | NightHawkTheSane | definition* |
| 20:39.38 | ZorbaBeta | "progression" is something made up by the players. Blizzard provides many kinds of progression and does not specify which one is the best. |
| 20:39.42 | NeoTron | and btw Champions Online has the same measurement. Their game was built with the small trnasactions tore which provides nothing but extra fluff (pets, costume pieces) |
| 20:42.43 | krka | the only true progression is obviously to make more money playing the auction system |
| 20:43.16 | ZorbaBeta | krka, obviously so. blizzard will never dare break their auction house progression game in any way |
| 20:43.38 | *** join/#wowuidev Kowski (n=ykow@dhcp-v013-064.mobile.uci.edu) |
| 20:44.15 | KarlKFI|work | they couldbreak your legs but that'd probablymake you progress faster by not beign able to leave the AH |
| 20:44.17 | Ackis | anyone have the lil kt pet item? |
| 20:46.18 | AbsolutRayne | @_@ |
| 20:50.46 | Shirik | Adys: Bullshit |
| 20:51.06 | Shirik | That comic is so.... stupid |
| 20:52.00 | Twisol | snicker |
| 20:53.19 | cog|work | http://www.todaysbigthing.com/2009/11/03 forklift FAIL |
| 20:54.05 | Shirik | tackles Lopeppeppy |
| 20:54.18 | cog|work | Shirik: no, ur bullshit |
| 20:54.21 | cog|work | :P |
| 20:56.34 | Shirik | what a moron |
| 21:01.50 | *** join/#wowuidev baco (i=4feac8d8@gateway/web/freenode/x-b30588aa9cea35f0) |
| 21:02.17 | NightHawkTheSane | Ackis: i could log in and have it, why? |
| 21:02.38 | baco | hi, is there a limit on how often i can call blizz api, e.g. UnitIsAFK? |
| 21:02.54 | Shirik | Yes |
| 21:03.03 | Shirik | you can't call it so fast that the user's computer gets so slow he hates you |
| 21:03.17 | NightHawkTheSane | well you could... i guess.. |
| 21:03.18 | baco | right, but every once in a while should be no prolem? |
| 21:03.26 | cog|work | yep |
| 21:03.28 | baco | or am i getting dc'ed? |
| 21:03.36 | NightHawkTheSane | blizzard does not rate limit most api calls, afaik. |
| 21:03.38 | Shirik | I don't believe UnitIsAFK requires querying to the server |
| 21:03.44 | cog|work | ^ |
| 21:03.48 | NightHawkTheSane | largely because of ^ |
| 21:03.48 | Shirik | the only time you have a rate limit is when communication with the server is required |
| 21:03.55 | Ackis | NightHawkTheSane: I got them already, needed the ID for collectinator ty however |
| 21:04.59 | NightHawkTheSane | heh, "I'm Kel'thuzad, lich lord of the plaguelands. You may have seen me in such instances as Naxxramas, Old Hillsbrad foothills, and... naxxramas again." |
| 21:05.13 | Twisol | Heheh. |
| 21:05.46 | NightHawkTheSane | "As a member of the K.T. fan club, now you too can have a little piece of everyone's favorite archlich. Enjoy! ... or I will FREEZE THE BLOOD IN YOUR VEINS." |
| 21:06.30 | Trela | cog|work: So many safety violations in relation to those shelving units. Yikes. |
| 21:10.41 | Fisker | omg |
| 21:10.55 | Fisker | they finally upgraded eu account management |
| 21:11.18 | alestane | Wow, that's the most expensive game of dominoes I've ever seen. |
| 21:11.34 | *** join/#wowuidev Hirsute (n=chatzill@lre-east-3-11.usahousing.utah.edu) |
| 21:11.37 | Shirik | ? |
| 21:12.02 | Trela | Every warehouse I have been to has concrete posts at the corners of every row. One concrete post would have saved all of that. |
| 21:12.08 | Fisker | yeah Shirik |
| 21:12.11 | Shirik | Fisker |
| 21:12.12 | Shirik | icu |
| 21:12.41 | alestane | Dominoes: http://www.todaysbigthing.com/2009/11/03 |
| 21:13.59 | *** join/#wowuidev Caleb| (n=caleb@dsl4E5C03DF.pool.t-online.hu) |
| 21:14.14 | Bruners | alestane: funny how the title on that story changes all the time |
| 21:14.52 | alestane | I thought Shirik was asking what I meant...so relinked. |
| 21:15.01 | Shirik | yeah I was |
| 21:15.09 | Shirik | oh |
| 21:15.10 | Shirik | I saw that |
| 21:15.22 | Shirik | I just didn't connect the dominoes statement to cog|work's post |
| 21:15.50 | *** join/#wowuidev BWMerlin (n=chatzill@58.174.148.250) |
| 21:18.38 | cog|work | http://www.todaysbigthing.com/2009/11/04 O.O |
| 21:19.43 | Shirik | lmao |
| 21:19.46 | Shirik | I think it's staged |
| 21:19.48 | Shirik | but hilarious anyway |
| 21:20.48 | alestane | Since I have trouble imagining a production crew idiot enough to lash a boom mike to a fan. |
| 21:20.58 | Shirik | lol |
| 21:21.05 | Shirik | CVE-2009-3370: A malicious web page can extract out all the data stored within the autocomplete history of a user's Firefox browser. |
| 21:21.20 | *** part/#wowuidev Zhinjio (n=Geo@71-215-113-208.hlrn.qwest.net) |
| 21:21.45 | Fisker | it's wound on mainhand and deadly on offhand right? |
| 21:22.38 | alestane | I find that with deadly on main hand, I lose applications from being at full stacks. |
| 21:23.32 | NightHawkTheSane | Fisker: that is the common wisdom i believe |
| 21:24.08 | baco | UnitDebuff(unitID, index or name [, removable]) - UnitDebuff("player", 1, 1) says heroism. am i doing something wrong or how can heroism be removed by another player? |
| 21:24.19 | *** join/#wowuidev Cralor` (n=Cralor`@c-98-216-219-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 21:24.53 | baco | i mean the debuff you get after heroism |
| 21:27.29 | Fisker | thanks NightHawkTheSane |
| 21:27.36 | Fisker | my addon messed it around |
| 21:28.02 | Arrowmaster | Shirik: thats what happens when the core of a browser is written in javascript...... |
| 21:28.11 | Shirik | no |
| 21:28.18 | Shirik | that's what happens when you deal with Firefox |
| 21:30.11 | Arrowmaster | what the fuck |
| 21:30.12 | Arrowmaster | https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=511615 |
| 21:30.17 | mikma | tekkub: http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/4547642-hairless-bears |
| 21:30.27 | cog|work | ahhh headlines... |
| 21:30.28 | KarlKFI|work | exploit related? |
| 21:30.29 | cog|work | David Nutt's sacking causes mass revolt against Alan Johnson |
| 21:30.42 | Twisol | What immediately jumped out at me was "Nutt's sacking". |
| 21:30.42 | tekkub | :P |
| 21:30.42 | Twisol | :( |
| 21:30.46 | Arrowmaster | its linked from http://web.nvd.nist.gov/view/vuln/detail?vulnId=CVE-2009-3370 |
| 21:32.47 | Arrowmaster | imho the entire allowing webpages to alter the DOM with scripting is overrated, lets go back to pure markup language |
| 21:33.38 | Shirik | agree |
| 21:33.42 | Shirik | but that's not what the gods that be say |
| 21:34.28 | Shirik | also, I'm glad Firefox security issues are hidden |
| 21:34.34 | Fisker | i has not gotten my pets |
| 21:34.35 | Fisker | :((((((( |
| 21:34.38 | Shirik | speaks wonders about how open-source Firefox really is |
| 21:35.01 | NeoTron | mikma: so we can now safely say that bears look better with fur |
| 21:35.22 | Shirik | NeoTron, wtf |
| 21:35.30 | ajmitch | Shirik: most open source projects tend to hide security issues until they've got a fix for them |
| 21:35.45 | NeoTron | interestingly though, it looks sort of like an elephant |
| 21:35.46 | Shirik | (1) this already has a fix |
| 21:35.51 | Shirik | (2) it's already posted to full disclosure |
| 21:35.54 | Shirik | (3) I disagree with that |
| 21:36.11 | mikma | neotron: i agree. and i think tekkub agrees too |
| 21:36.14 | Shirik | perhaps "many" but not "most" |
| 21:36.25 | tekkub | :P |
| 21:36.44 | tekkub | nothing looks good hairless |
| 21:37.22 | Twisol | naked mole rats are hairless! |
| 21:37.31 | ZorbaBeta | argh, I have serious characters on two servers |
| 21:37.34 | ZorbaBeta | both of which are down |
| 21:37.55 | alestane | Routes takes quite a while to process 543 nodes. |
| 21:38.15 | ZorbaBeta | alestane, yeah, I've been playing around with 1000-node routes in Questhelper. They are kind of slow. |
| 21:38.17 | NeoTron | tekkub: nothing? well... maybe not |
| 21:47.11 | *** join/#wowuidev sioraiocht (n=tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht) |
| 21:52.59 | alestane | lua> 2966/60 |
| 21:53.00 | lua_bot | alestane: 49.433333333333 |
| 21:53.06 | Lopeppeppy | 12. |
| 21:53.27 | alestane | Took about 50 minutes to calculate that gathermate route. |
| 21:53.39 | Shirik | Lopeppeppy :( |
| 21:53.41 | Shirik | you did not say hi |
| 21:53.45 | Seerah | wow |
| 21:54.05 | nevcairiel | alestane: o.O how many nodes? |
| 21:54.16 | alestane | 543. |
| 21:54.26 | Lopeppeppy | Shirik, I'm sorry, I've been kinda sick all day. |
| 21:54.27 | alestane | My Icecrown map of Saronite, Rich Saronite and Titanium. |
| 21:54.29 | Lopeppeppy | hugs Shirik. |
| 21:54.33 | Shirik | oh :( |
| 21:54.35 | Shirik | go to sleep |
| 21:54.40 | Lopeppeppy | I did. I just woked up. |
| 21:54.45 | Shirik | yay :) |
| 21:54.53 | Shirik | better? |
| 21:55.28 | Lopeppeppy | No, but the cuddles with Mooseling were nice. |
| 21:56.16 | KarlKFI|work | why is routing taking so long? isn't it just a shortest path problem? |
| 21:56.31 | bleeter | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmJbJs-9ST0 |
| 21:56.49 | alestane | Since when are shortest path problems fast to solve? |
| 21:57.15 | KarlKFI|work | it is if you're not finding the ideal path |
| 21:57.27 | KarlKFI|work | just a pretty good path |
| 21:57.54 | KarlKFI|work | if it takes you 50min to generate, that's 50min you could have been mining... |
| 21:58.21 | alestane | You'd have to ask Xinhuan then. |
| 21:58.26 | ZorbaBeta | this is why QH goes for a best-effort attempt first, then optimizes from there |
| 21:58.57 | alestane | Now, this was 50 min in the background. |
| 21:59.06 | KarlKFI|work | ideal path is slow, but you can heuristic pretty well, especially since none of the paths are one way |
| 21:59.26 | ZorbaBeta | man I wish QH had all two-way paths :( |
| 22:02.15 | KarlKFI|work | is he using Dijkstra's? |
| 22:02.32 | alestane | I have...no idea. |
| 22:02.36 | ZorbaBeta | he uses ant routing for the actual routing system. there's no pathfinding involved, dijkstra's wouldn't be useful |
| 22:04.51 | KarlKFI|work | personally i'd say given my experience with mining nodes you'd want to do clusters of nodes first and then link them |
| 22:05.12 | KarlKFI|work | but that may not apply to herbalism |
| 22:05.29 | *** join/#wowuidev Zhinjio (n=Geo@71-215-113-208.hlrn.qwest.net) |
| 22:06.27 | ZorbaBeta | the last time I checked, routes was only used for finding paths within a single zone, and it had no way of generating paths that didn't consist entirely of "walk straight from point A to point B" |
| 22:07.01 | ZorbaBeta | that's what dijkstra's does - it finds the shortest path between two nodes. it's just unnecessary for routes's system. the difficult part is figuring out what order to visit nodes in, and dijkstra's just does not help with that. |
| 22:07.11 | KarlKFI|work | right, but within zones they're rather clustered |
| 22:07.37 | ZorbaBeta | sure, but that's also not dijkstra's, that's just "combine nodes if they're really close to each other" |
| 22:07.56 | KarlKFI|work | as for what to start with i would say don't have a start point |
| 22:07.59 | KarlKFI|work | make a loop |
| 22:08.13 | KarlKFI|work | and then they can jsut start with whatever node's closest |
| 22:08.38 | alestane | That's what it does. A new route is rubber-banded around the nodes in the path, then you can optimize it. |
| 22:09.01 | ZorbaBeta | alestane, ah, for a while it would just sit there crunching before spitting out something |
| 22:12.07 | *** join/#wowuidev Kowski (n=ykow@dhcp-v013-064.mobile.uci.edu) |
| 22:12.28 | *** join/#wowuidev Thunder_Child (n=TC@WoWUIDev/PITA/TC) |
| 22:13.01 | *** join/#wowuidev Riffage- (n=nnscript@78-86-205-138.zone2.bethere.co.uk) |
| 22:13.32 | *** join/#wowuidev KarlKFI|work (n=chatzill@adcom005v.adcom.uci.edu) |
| 22:13.43 | KarlKFI|work | i win. i crashed FireFox |
| 22:14.12 | ZorbaBeta | if that's winning, then most people who use firefox are winners :P |
| 22:14.41 | Thunder_Child | i dunno, FF has not crashed in quite some time |
| 22:14.47 | Thunder_Child | for me at least |
| 22:14.51 | *** join/#wowuidev Tuller (n=muffins@pool-72-84-246-12.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net) |
| 22:15.10 | Arrowmaster | i can easily crash it, although its actually the flash plugin crashing it |
| 22:16.29 | *** join/#wowuidev olafski (n=egrimm@dream.student.utwente.nl) |
| 22:16.42 | Thunder_Child | i think voice needs some work on transcoding, "Hi positive Casper, Thank you for your call back Wednesday would be much better for me like it after 2 o'clock. If you could get back to me I'd appreciate it. Thank you so much" |
| 22:17.15 | Arrowmaster | theres a for pay service that does a better job |
| 22:17.34 | Thunder_Child | it doesnt matter, it's just amusing |
| 22:17.58 | Arrowmaster | but they were caught faking it, they dont actually have technology that does a better job but outsource all of your voice mail to have people listen to it and write it down |
| 22:22.15 | foxlit | http://shinytank.wordpress.com/2009/08/27/in-the-mountains/ |
| 22:23.07 | KarlKFI|work | Traveling Salesman Randomized Improvement: "Random path change algorithms are currently the state-of-the-art search algorithms and work up to 100,000 cities. The concept is quite simple: Choose a random path, choose four nearby points, swap their ways to create a new random path, while in parallel decreasing the upper bound of the path length. |
| 22:23.09 | KarlKFI|work | If repeated until a certain number of trials of random path changes fail due to the upper bound, one has found a local minimum with high probability, and further it is a global minimum with high probability." |
| 22:24.20 | KarlKFI|work | or use a Markov chain for < 800 nodes |
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| 22:34.37 | smcn | fucking dragon age origins put me on the spot to name this dog and i have been thinking for 15 minutes |
| 22:35.33 | Zyn | Buttface |
| 22:35.36 | Zyn | use that |
| 22:36.19 | ZorbaBeta | Doug. Doug the dog. |
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| 22:36.53 | Arrowmaster | ...... |
| 22:36.57 | Arrowmaster | i just watched that movie |
| 22:37.10 | Arrowmaster | and i do mean JUST |
| 22:37.33 | Arrowmaster | still open paused on the credits |
| 22:42.00 | *** join/#wowuidev WobWork (n=Wobwork@136.136.233.220.static.exetel.com.au) |
| 22:42.43 | zenzelezz | Doug the dog dug god? |
| 22:44.35 | Lopeppeppy | No, but he dug good. |
| 22:45.16 | WobWork | Did Doug the dog dig god good? |
| 22:45.22 | durcyn | oh god stop |
| 22:45.35 | WobWork | likes today's google logo |
| 22:46.13 | WobWork | the co.uk one is especially awesome |
| 22:51.13 | WobWork | oh god |
| 22:51.25 | WobWork | ... comments on the co.uk googlogo |
| 22:51.29 | WobWork | "2. kdsaty | 11.04.09 I saw the google doodle earlier and wondered why it was Wallace and Gromit. On 31st July it should be Harry Potter because thats when Harryâs parents were killed by Lord Voldemort." |
| 22:52.03 | Lopeppeppy | I'm all american, I see big bird. |
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| 22:55.40 | Ackis | smcn: Name him penis |
| 22:55.47 | Ackis | smcn: I named my dog Kuma |
| 22:56.12 | smcn | i went the lame route with spot |
| 22:56.34 | smcn | although i just realize cujo would have been awesome |
| 22:57.04 | Ackis | you're a human noble? |
| 22:57.22 | WobWork | Lopeppeppy: www.google.co.uk |
| 22:57.22 | Lopeppeppy | I put spot remover on my dog. Now he's gone. |
| 22:57.37 | Lopeppeppy | Oooh, very subtle, WobWork! |
| 22:57.47 | Arrowmaster | i almost got glined from gamesurge(think it was gamesnet back then) when one of the board of directors mentioned his girlfriend got a new puppy and was trying to come up with a name for it |
| 22:57.58 | WobWork | www.google.com.au gets cookiecookiecookie |
| 22:58.02 | Arrowmaster | i suggested Roofles and she found out and thought it was cute |
| 22:58.03 | WobWork | (and that's good enough for me!) |
| 22:58.22 | Arrowmaster | he really didnt like it |
| 22:58.29 | WobWork | nice abuse of power =P |
| 22:58.37 | durcyn | that is a pretty awful name. |
| 22:58.38 | WobWork | roofles is a -great- name =) |
| 22:58.54 | Ackis | smcn: http://social.bioware.com/3885/ |
| 22:59.13 | WobWork | nice |
| 22:59.13 | Arrowmaster | nah not really abuse, im friends with most the board of directors and ircops |
| 22:59.19 | WobWork | the english option has the canadian flag =P |
| 22:59.24 | Arrowmaster | or i was at the time, lot of new ircops now i dont know |
| 22:59.33 | Ackis | WobWork: bioware is Canadian eh |
| 23:00.12 | smcn | ackis: dalish, i was trying to find something elvish to name him but couldn't find anything good |
| 23:01.15 | Arrowmaster | it would only have been abuse if it was one of the ircops that didnt like me, like when i ended up glined for a day and squelched from using nickserv/chanserv for a week when they added hostmask cloaking and i broke it |
| 23:02.21 | foxlit | gr, recursion + gdb |
| 23:03.01 | WobWork | what sort of dog is he? |
| 23:03.42 | smcn | WobWork: http://www.bodybuildingblog.co.uk/images/muscle-dog.jpg |
| 23:03.50 | smcn | is immediately what i thought of the first time i saw him |
| 23:04.53 | WobWork | .. that's kinda creepy |
| 23:04.54 | smcn | man i don't want to go to work, why couldn't i have gotten swine flu this week |
| 23:05.15 | Ackis | lol |
| 23:05.18 | Ackis | I said that same thing this morning |
| 23:05.19 | Lopeppeppy | smcn. Someone in my boss's family died from H1N1 this week. Stuff it. |
| 23:05.31 | Lopeppeppy | Get the dengali fever instead. |
| 23:05.36 | WobWork | got vaccinated a few weeks ago |
| 23:05.45 | Lopeppeppy | Yaaay, WobWork! |
| 23:06.01 | kdtresh|work | had the flu 6 weeks ago. |
| 23:06.05 | WobWork | yay for free access to h1n1 vaccine! |
| 23:06.20 | Lopeppeppy | I am not considered at-risk, so I didn't get any of the limited supply of seasonal, and I'm not likely to get any of the limited supply of H1N1 vaccine when it arrives either. |
| 23:06.34 | zenzelezz | gives Steam the evil eye. My Dragon Age: Origins pre-load was at something like 70%, now it's back at 10% |
| 23:06.43 | Lopeppeppy | Ooooopst. |
| 23:06.56 | kdtresh|work | h1n1 went through my son's daycare, and he brought it home, because we've taught him to share |
| 23:07.45 | WobWork | zenzelezz: It just means they decided to release 7 times more content! =) |
| 23:07.47 | WobWork | ...maybe |
| 23:08.17 | Lopeppeppy | Sharing is caring. Sorry y'all got the germies. |
| 23:09.11 | kdtresh|work | he had the sniffles for a couple days and it was done |
| 23:09.18 | kdtresh|work | i was in bed for 3 days |
| 23:09.57 | kdtresh|work | don't know if it was swine, but almost all the kids at his daycare were out and one of them tested positive for it |
| 23:10.25 | kdtresh|work | i figure it probably was, but it takes 2 weeks for the tests, and i was over it in 3 or 4 days |
| 23:11.05 | Twisol | we got sick for about a week each a month ago |
| 23:11.18 | Lopeppeppy | They're just saying it's all H1N1 at this point, no more testing. |
| 23:11.19 | Twisol | but it was pretty mild and it passed |
| 23:11.29 | WobWork | piglet flu |
| 23:11.34 | Twisol | heheh |
| 23:11.52 | cbreak | Let's PANIC! |
| 23:12.01 | durcyn | i saw the best halloween costume |
| 23:12.15 | durcyn | this girl took a normal pig costume and wore a surgical mask over it |
| 23:12.50 | Twisol | hahah |
| 23:13.03 | cbreak | she should have worn a scite. |
| 23:13.19 | Twisol | ScITE? |
| 23:13.27 | durcyn | scythe...? |
| 23:14.20 | cbreak | yes |
| 23:14.49 | durcyn | oh. |
| 23:15.40 | Lopeppeppy | No, the mask really does convey the message very neatly. |
| 23:16.25 | AbsolutRayne | 855 Resil now, horray |
| 23:17.02 | Lopeppeppy | Hooray! |
| 23:19.13 | ScytheBlade1 | YEAH |
| 23:19.19 | ScytheBlade1 | x5 Cardinal Ruby xmute proc |
| 23:19.21 | ScytheBlade1 | YEAAAHHHHH |
| 23:19.36 | Lopeppeppy | wwwwhhhhheeeeeeee! |
| 23:19.51 | alestane | HOLY CRAP. |
| 23:19.54 | durcyn | kool_aid_man.gif goes here |
| 23:20.19 | NightHawkTheSane | ^ |
| 23:22.51 | ScytheBlade1 | That's my second x5 proc too |
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| 23:24.49 | Kraps | Ose: aaaand i was in the wrong channel /sigh |
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| 23:25.46 | Ose | wut? |
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| 23:25.54 | Kraps | i didnt realize i was in wowwiki |
| 23:26.07 | ScytheBlade1 | I'm still in shock |
| 23:26.11 | ScytheBlade1 | x5 proc on the red gems? |
| 23:26.24 | alestane | That's worth, what, a free 500g or so? |
| 23:26.38 | ScytheBlade1 | Oh easily |
| 23:26.42 | Arrowmaster | i did the same thing the other day Kraps, wowwiki is in the possition in the channel list that wowuidev is usually in for some reason |
| 23:26.50 | Arrowmaster | leaves for class now |
| 23:26.52 | ScytheBlade1 | Considering I'm also a 450 JC |
| 23:27.01 | ScytheBlade1 | lua>230*5 |
| 23:27.01 | lua_bot | ScytheBlade1: 1150 |
| 23:27.18 | ScytheBlade1 | Fair bit more than 500g as compared to a "standard" one for the xmute |
| 23:28.03 | alestane | Is that what you can sell the cut gems for? |
| 23:28.08 | ScytheBlade1 | yup |
| 23:29.21 | ScytheBlade1 | I'm stockpiling for 3.3 though |
| 23:29.28 | *** join/#wowuidev Repo (n=supybot@repos.curseforge.net) |
| 23:29.30 | ScytheBlade1 | Hoping to push 300g each |
| 23:30.51 | Pneu^ | i still cant believe gems sell for so much, ive got enough badges to regem 3 times over |
| 23:33.50 | KarlKFI|work | gems are impulse buys |
| 23:34.05 | KarlKFI|work | you wait for loot then you gem them immediately |
| 23:34.23 | Lopeppeppy | Yup. |
| 23:34.35 | Lopeppeppy | Sometimes you see one at a bargain price and snag it, but not often. |
| 23:34.58 | ScytheBlade1 | which is exactly why, come 3.3 |
| 23:35.01 | ScytheBlade1 | I'm going to be rich |
| 23:35.08 | KarlKFI|work | most people dont search for things they dont need immediatly |
| 23:35.31 | Lopeppeppy | A few will know that 3.3 is coming and save up some gems for themselves. |
| 23:35.42 | ScytheBlade1 | yeah sure |
| 23:35.43 | ajmitch | only has a stockpile of 40 or so uncut, but it was nice to get a transmute proc on the rubies last night |
| 23:35.48 | ScytheBlade1 | But that won't be close to the demand |
| 23:37.00 | alestane | What happens in 3.3 that will improve the gem market? New loot from IC? |
| 23:37.00 | kdtresh|work | so many empty sockets... |
| 23:37.18 | Lopeppeppy | People change talents, etc with a new patch. |
| 23:37.36 | foxlit | "$2 = <variable optimized away by compiler>" << qq. |
| 23:38.35 | foxlit | Optimizes the most amazing things -- this one was a pointer to a structure that gets frequently accessed and eventually returned from the function :/. |
| 23:40.24 | WobWork | foxlit: clearly you didn't need it =0 |
| 23:41.23 | ScytheBlade1 | New tier of gear, in short |
| 23:41.28 | ScytheBlade1 | Well, several of them |
| 23:41.33 | ScytheBlade1 | But eh |
| 23:43.33 | foxlit | Hah, awesome. |
| 23:43.55 | foxlit | You can do "watch *((int *) 0x...)" and it'll break when you overwrite your datastructures. |
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