| 00:00.12 | Lopeppeppy | I didn't think I'd be spoiling, since I watch on Hulu. But I'll be quietPeppy now. |
| 00:00.42 | Dorkins | wow, how said even the UI forums on worldofwarcraft.com have no tutorials |
| 00:01.12 | foxlit | UI customization is *not supported*. |
| 00:01.25 | foxlit | Any help you receive (or do not receive) comes from people volunteering their time. |
| 00:01.43 | Dorkins | but there isn't even one by a player on there |
| 00:01.48 | ScytheBlade1 | Everything we know about it is derived entirely from people analyzing the source UI, playing with the lua enviroment, and a blue post or two |
| 00:01.57 | Lopeppeppy | They do have in the FAQ's some of the very same links we've already given you here! OMG, imagine that! |
| 00:03.14 | NightHawkTheSane | seriously, are we still humoring this moron? |
| 00:03.25 | ScytheBlade1 | and ourselves |
| 00:03.29 | ScytheBlade1 | shrugs |
| 00:03.32 | *** join/#wowuidev theorbtwo (n=theorb@91.84.53.6) |
| 00:04.21 | Dorkins | sighs |
| 00:04.39 | cbreak | there are many tutorials |
| 00:04.48 | cbreak | but I won't tell you where they are! |
| 00:04.56 | cbreak | laughts manically |
| 00:04.58 | NightHawkTheSane | ~cbreak++ |
| 00:05.18 | foxlit | "Unless you pay the ransom of.... ONE... MILLION... DOLLARS!"? |
| 00:05.54 | Lopeppeppy | a meeeeelion dollars? |
| 00:06.02 | foxlit | a meeeeelion dollars! |
| 00:08.07 | Dorkins | Give me the tutorials....NOW! |
| 00:08.29 | Dagmar | Just a million dollars? |
| 00:08.34 | Dagmar | Done! |
| 00:08.41 | Lopeppeppy | has to laugh. |
| 00:09.05 | Dagmar | You can lead a newbie to clue, but you can't make him think. |
| 00:09.05 | ScytheBlade1 | most all of the tutorials are terrible dated |
| 00:09.17 | ScytheBlade1 | But they'll get you started |
| 00:09.26 | ScytheBlade1 | *terribly |
| 00:09.31 | Lopeppeppy | ScytheBlade1, we already gave him everything we've got. I promise. |
| 00:09.35 | Dorkins | yet no one pointed me to an actually tutorial |
| 00:09.43 | ScytheBlade1 | !g wow addon tutorial |
| 00:09.43 | batbot | ScytheBlade1: World of Warcraft (en) Forums -> World of Warcraft AddOn Creation ... <http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=279238124&sid=1> |
| 00:09.48 | Dorkins | nor any tool for wow addon programming |
| 00:10.00 | ScytheBlade1 | !g wow addon editor lua |
| 00:10.01 | batbot | ScytheBlade1: Lua editors - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft <http://www.wowwiki.com/Lua_editors> |
| 00:10.06 | ScytheBlade1 | that was bloody hard, eh |
| 00:10.14 | Lopeppeppy | I promise. |
| 00:10.27 | Dorkins | i said addon tool not lua |
| 00:10.31 | ScytheBlade1 | Does |
| 00:10.32 | ScytheBlade1 | not |
| 00:10.33 | ScytheBlade1 | exist! |
| 00:10.42 | ScytheBlade1 | Feel free to roll your own |
| 00:10.47 | cbreak | texteditor |
| 00:10.48 | Shadowed | I am surprised nobody has banned him yet |
| 00:10.53 | Dorkins | every lang has one |
| 00:10.57 | ScytheBlade1 | WRONG! |
| 00:10.59 | cbreak | a text editor? |
| 00:11.01 | cbreak | get a clue |
| 00:11.01 | *** join/#wowuidev Kraps (n=chatzill@ool-44c20717.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 00:11.17 | ScytheBlade1 | cackles |
| 00:11.24 | cbreak | you do NOT need a different version of a text editor just to write french |
| 00:11.33 | cbreak | parlez vous français? |
| 00:11.35 | cbreak | see. |
| 00:11.38 | cbreak | same client |
| 00:11.39 | cbreak | other language |
| 00:12.00 | Dorkins | text editor isn't a tool for programming |
| 00:12.12 | ScytheBlade1 | Every person in this channel is going to disagree with you |
| 00:12.19 | ScytheBlade1 | You don't believe that to be the case, that's okay |
| 00:12.21 | cbreak | æ¥æ¬èªãã§ãã¾ãã |
| 00:12.23 | ScytheBlade1 | But that won't change a thing |
| 00:12.23 | Vlakarados | what is a tool for programming? |
| 00:12.25 | Dorkins | a tool would have syntax highlighting and a visual designer |
| 00:12.35 | ScytheBlade1 | Feel free to roll your own |
| 00:12.44 | Dagmar | Dorkins: Visual designers are for people who don't know what they're doing. |
| 00:12.44 | cbreak | text editors HAVE syntax highlighting |
| 00:12.47 | Vlakarados | it's a feature of a text editor |
| 00:12.51 | cbreak | and a visual designer is for braindead noobs |
| 00:12.54 | Dagmar | Syntax highlighting is just sugar, Vim has it. Learn to use vim. |
| 00:13.31 | Dagmar | The only thing someone should claim to "need" a visual tool for coding with is the interface panes themselves on a GUI app. |
| 00:13.36 | Dagmar | The rest does not require an IDE |
| 00:14.02 | cbreak | you can write your UI in code |
| 00:14.02 | cbreak | it's just a bit boring |
| 00:14.02 | Vlakarados | no it's not |
| 00:14.02 | Dagmar | Yeah bit it's obnoxious for aesthetics |
| 00:14.07 | ScytheBlade1 | Oh, right |
| 00:14.09 | ScytheBlade1 | There IS a tool for it |
| 00:14.11 | ScytheBlade1 | WoW.exe |
| 00:14.16 | cbreak | whoa! |
| 00:14.20 | Vlakarados | I like to write everything in code |
| 00:14.22 | Dagmar | You can think it through in your head without seeing it, but it's never the same as seeing the elements in front of you |
| 00:14.33 | cbreak | Vlakarados: it gets very painful with big projects |
| 00:14.45 | Vlakarados | it's just like web design |
| 00:14.46 | Dagmar | i used to write websites on a machine with a monochrome screen, and people wondered how I picked the colors |
| 00:14.47 | cbreak | and for Qt and Objective-C, there are nice UI designers |
| 00:14.52 | Vlakarados | can do in notepad |
| 00:15.01 | Dagmar | I used _math_ and _science_ to pick the color schemes. |
| 00:15.03 | Vlakarados | can do in adobe |
| 00:15.13 | Dagmar | ..but it was always a surprise to see it on someone else's computer. |
| 00:15.26 | Kraps | anyone seen the uk lotto nigerian scam? |
| 00:15.36 | ScytheBlade1 | You code your addon up, load it into WoW, edit and /reload as you edit |
| 00:15.38 | Lopeppeppy | I've seen tons of nigerian scams, what makes this one unique? |
| 00:16.00 | foxlit | Kraps: "I am the deceased aunt of the UK lotto commissioner, send your money to this bank account to receive your prize?" |
| 00:16.06 | Kraps | no |
| 00:16.13 | foxlit | Or something more fun? |
| 00:16.16 | cbreak | Vlakarados: the main reason only idiots use wysiwig tools to create web pages is because the tools are crap |
| 00:16.20 | Kraps | ATTENTION: Winner,This is the official result of the Power Ball 2009 LOTTERY |
| 00:16.22 | Kraps | PROGRAM.held in UK.. Your e-mail address drew the winning lucky numbers: |
| 00:16.24 | Kraps | 6 16 34 45 51 4 . You have therefore been approved to claim a total sum of |
| 00:16.25 | Kraps | £1,000,000.000 (G.B.P) in cash |
| 00:16.34 | Kraps | credited To file for your claim please kindly |
| 00:16.35 | Kraps | provide the following informations and send it to our Fiduciary Agent who |
| 00:16.37 | Kraps | shall clear you as a winner. |
| 00:16.43 | foxlit | Okay, enough |
| 00:17.06 | Ackis | Kraps: MOAR MOAR |
| 00:17.14 | Kraps | sorry foxlit |
| 00:17.17 | foxlit | I'd say a nigerian scam requires a "I am (blah), help me (get money) out of (blah)" syntax |
| 00:17.28 | Dorkins | so where can i get the tool i require |
| 00:17.31 | foxlit | Lottery scams are relatively common, too, though. |
| 00:17.35 | Vlakarados | I wouldn't use it anyway |
| 00:17.44 | Vlakarados | I like numbers and pixels |
| 00:17.48 | Dagmar | Dorkins: Congratulations! You get to write one. |
| 00:17.52 | Lopeppeppy | Dorkins, go program it for yourself, we keep telling you that text editors work, so no "fancy" thing exists. |
| 00:17.52 | Vlakarados | it gives you precision |
| 00:17.53 | foxlit | In particular, the number 4242 |
| 00:17.57 | Dagmar | You can probably use Eclipse, but I doubt that'll help |
| 00:18.01 | foxlit | And the pixel (5,55) |
| 00:18.09 | *** join/#wowuidev mascondante (i=kvirc@99-196-36-186.cust.wildblue.net) |
| 00:18.25 | cbreak | Dork, get a text editor |
| 00:18.26 | Dorkins | text editors aren't for programming. Plus no visual designer |
| 00:18.39 | Dagmar | IRC channels aren't for trolling, either, but that's not stopped you. |
| 00:18.41 | cbreak | wrong |
| 00:18.52 | Dorkins | and no syntax highlighting |
| 00:18.54 | Dagmar | There is NO visual designer tool for this. |
| 00:18.56 | cbreak | wrong |
| 00:19.01 | ScytheBlade1 | cackles |
| 00:19.03 | Dagmar | If you go looking for one, you will merely get a trojan horse. |
| 00:19.07 | Dagmar | I have three of them here. |
| 00:19.10 | cbreak | most text editors I've seen have syntax highlingting |
| 00:19.22 | cbreak | hell, even pastebin has syntax highlighting |
| 00:19.32 | Dagmar | Yes. |
| 00:19.39 | NightHawkTheSane | your MOM has synta highlighting |
| 00:19.43 | Dorkins | text editors are for writing things like books |
| 00:19.49 | cbreak | no |
| 00:20.00 | Dorkins | yes |
| 00:20.03 | ScytheBlade1 | no |
| 00:20.05 | cbreak | LaTeX editors are for writing things like books :) |
| 00:20.06 | foxlit | That'd be word processors. |
| 00:20.24 | Vlakarados | no |
| 00:20.27 | cbreak | eeew :) |
| 00:20.27 | NightHawkTheSane | cbreak: that would be text editors ;) |
| 00:20.29 | Dorkins | same thing |
| 00:20.33 | cbreak | no |
| 00:20.38 | cbreak | word is not a text editor |
| 00:20.40 | Torhal | If I see one more "Uh-huh! Nuh-uh!" argument, I'mma puke on Ackis. |
| 00:20.59 | Lopeppeppy | Dorkins, go program it for yourself, we keep telling you that text editors work, so no "fancy" thing exists. |
| 00:21.12 | Lopeppeppy | tries the education-by-repetition mode |
| 00:21.21 | ScytheBlade1 | Instant poll! say 1 for "text editors can be used for programming", say 2 for anything else |
| 00:21.25 | NightHawkTheSane | Lopeppeppy: you can't educate a cement block |
| 00:21.32 | Lopeppeppy | 1 |
| 00:21.34 | foxlit | run, Ackis, run. |
| 00:21.35 | ScytheBlade1 | 1 |
| 00:21.35 | cbreak | NightHawkTheSane: sure |
| 00:21.42 | cbreak | it's called Sculpting |
| 00:21.44 | Thunder_Child | ScytheBlade1, you can with a .50 cal rifle...i have seen it once |
| 00:22.28 | cbreak | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mesopotamia_male_worshiper_2750-2600_B.C.jpg |
| 00:22.32 | cbreak | I've found a mental image! |
| 00:26.49 | Ackis | ~seen Torhal |
| 00:26.50 | purl | torhal is currently on #wowprogramming (2d 11h 3m 56s) #wowuidev (2d 11h 3m 56s) #arl (2d 11h 3m 56s) #wowace (2d 11h 3m 56s) #curseforge (2d 11h 3m 56s). Has said a total of 126 messages. Is idling for 6m 10s, last said: 'If I see one more "Uh-huh! Nuh-uh!" argument, I'mma puke on Ackis.'. |
| 00:26.58 | Ackis | ... |
| 00:27.10 | Torhal | :D |
| 00:27.19 | Ackis | you're away on msn dude wtf? |
| 00:27.22 | Dagmar | Friends like that are hard to come by. |
| 00:27.30 | Ackis | i had nudies all ready to go for you |
| 00:27.34 | Dagmar | Usually you have to make a god really angry first. |
| 00:28.32 | Lopeppeppy | "If someone asks if you are a god, you say yes!" |
| 00:28.46 | cbreak | "Does he owe you money?" |
| 00:38.13 | *** join/#wowuidev Matrix110| (i=Matrix11@ip-95-222-224-247.unitymediagroup.de) |
| 00:38.30 | Ginji | Lopeppeppy: Then I'd be denying my own existence |
| 00:38.35 | Ginji | *poof* |
| 00:40.59 | Shirik | tackles Lopeppeppy |
| 00:41.19 | Lopeppeppy | Hi hi, Shirik dear. |
| 00:41.20 | *** join/#wowuidev BWMerlin_ (n=chatzill@58.174.148.250) |
| 00:41.28 | Shirik | I will fall asleep now |
| 00:41.55 | Lopeppeppy | you came un-afk just to tell me goodnight? |
| 00:41.57 | Lopeppeppy | feels lurved |
| 00:42.02 | Shirik | lol |
| 00:42.17 | Lopeppeppy | you laugh? |
| 00:42.18 | Shirik | actually when I'm AFK, I'm not connected :) |
| 00:42.21 | *** join/#wowuidev Kandoko1 (n=Testing@adsl-068-159-119-207.sip.gsp.bellsouth.net) |
| 00:42.28 | Shirik | so if it makes you feel better you can thin kI connected just to say that |
| 00:43.02 | Kraps | we're having epic rain here in nyc |
| 00:43.20 | Ackis | penis |
| 00:43.21 | Ackis | rawr |
| 00:43.22 | Ackis | penis |
| 00:43.24 | Ackis | w00t |
| 00:43.24 | Shirik | Lopeppeppy: Just finished a 24 hour programming competition rawr |
| 00:43.27 | Ackis | i love penis |
| 00:43.29 | Shirik | stabs Ackis |
| 00:43.39 | Lopeppeppy | oh, wow, congrats Shirik. |
| 00:43.44 | Lopeppeppy | You've earned bedtime then, off you go. |
| 00:43.48 | Ackis | Shirik: with a penis? |
| 00:43.59 | Lopeppeppy | Pretty epic downpours up here above Albany too, all day long |
| 00:44.03 | Lopeppeppy | I've been fitting water wings on the cats. |
| 00:44.26 | Lopeppeppy | they do not approve of these activities |
| 00:44.54 | Ackis | Lopeppeppy: I sprayed canned air my one of my cats anuses, he didn't like it |
| 00:45.07 | Shirik | I dunno |
| 00:45.08 | Lopeppeppy | .... |
| 00:45.09 | Lopeppeppy | um. |
| 00:45.17 | Lopeppeppy | I use canned air to discipline my cats, but from a distance |
| 00:45.18 | Shirik | I'm too active to go to sleep atm |
| 00:45.20 | *** join/#wowuidev cogwheel (n=cogwheel@WoWUIDev/WoWProgramming/morlando/cogwheel) |
| 00:45.21 | Lopeppeppy | they dont' like the hiss |
| 00:45.24 | Shirik | cogwheel! |
| 00:45.27 | Shirik | Just the man I was looking for |
| 00:45.29 | Kraps | spectral bear... mmhmhmhmhmhm! |
| 00:45.29 | Lopeppeppy | Takes a while to wind down, Shirik. |
| 00:45.30 | Shirik | I have a problem for you |
| 00:45.34 | Kraps | http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/news/2009/october/spectralbear.jpg |
| 00:45.35 | Ackis | Lopeppeppy: it was about 2 inches away |
| 00:45.58 | Thunder_Child | Ackis, are we still talking about pensis? |
| 00:46.11 | Ackis | Thunder_Child: no, spraying canned air at my cat's anus |
| 00:46.23 | Thunder_Child | is lost |
| 00:46.41 | Thunder_Child | and concidering the conversation i want to stay there |
| 00:47.13 | Lopeppeppy | compressed air can be cold and shouldn't be sprayed that close to skin, Ackis. More distance! |
| 00:47.29 | Ackis | Lopeppeppy: I sprayed it at chantelle once and chemicals got all over her face |
| 00:47.40 | Shirik | cogwheel ignores me :( |
| 00:47.48 | cogwheel | ~asktoask imo :P |
| 00:47.53 | Shirik | you |
| 00:48.15 | Shirik | ok so I just finished this programming competition. We did really well but there's one problem I've been going over forever and I still think they were wrong |
| 00:48.40 | Shirik | The programs we submit are automatically tested so I know for a fact they were getting a "Test #9 failed: SIGSEGV" on my program |
| 00:48.46 | Shirik | however a few things are curious |
| 00:48.56 | Shirik | (1) There were a lot of people reporting a SIGSEGV on test #9 |
| 00:49.16 | Shirik | (2) I've gone through this code all over the place and don't see anything wrong |
| 00:49.27 | Shirik | (3) We created the program from scratch multiple times and got the same error |
| 00:49.42 | Shirik | (4) I ran automated, randomized tests for 5 hours on the program, and got no errors |
| 00:49.56 | Shirik | so I want you to look at this code and see if you can find a way for it to segfault :P |
| 00:50.01 | Shirik | it's fairly simple |
| 00:50.22 | Shirik | We ended up getting it right, but not with this code. We used another set of code and jacked the buffer sizes way beyond the constrants we were given |
| 00:50.36 | Ackis | wow why so much spam! |
| 00:50.37 | cogwheel | sure... might get my mind off the fact that my gaming machine doesn't work :'( |
| 00:50.50 | cogwheel | (and i really don't feel like troubleshooting atm) |
| 00:51.11 | Shirik | http://wowi.pastey.net/127098-2lgf |
| 00:51.14 | Shirik | LEt me explain the problem |
| 00:51.35 | Ackis | did you guys know jnwhiteh is a script kiddie who knows nothing about coding? |
| 00:51.40 | Ackis | right Torhal? |
| 00:51.44 | Shirik | Basically, it's scrabble. Read from stdin, first comes "a b c d e f g .... z" |
| 00:51.55 | Shirik | Second line is a single digit, immediately under each letter, saying the value of each letter |
| 00:52.00 | Thunder_Child | you're bored as hell arent you Ackis |
| 00:52.24 | Ackis | Thunder_Child: yup |
| 00:52.26 | Shirik | Third line is the number of players. Fourth to 4+n3 lines are the tiles those players have, always lowercase, except for uppercase J which means wildcard (worth 0 points) |
| 00:52.40 | Shirik | Next comes the number of words in the official dictionary, followed by all of the dictionary words, then EOF |
| 00:52.54 | cogwheel | Ackis: if you google tomtom, the addon is right after the picture ads for the gps... |
| 00:52.54 | Shirik | I see no way for this to segfault given the constrants of tiles and player names <= 25 |
| 00:53.24 | Ackis | cogwheel: you missed the joke :( there was a guy last night in wowace who said that exact same ting |
| 00:53.32 | cogwheel | lol |
| 00:53.34 | Ackis | he got bitch slapped down hard |
| 00:53.55 | Ackis | Torhal agreed with him though |
| 00:53.55 | Shirik | hi Ackis |
| 00:53.59 | Shirik | have you met my friend Fisker? |
| 00:54.00 | Ackis | hi Shirik |
| 00:54.05 | Ackis | no |
| 00:54.07 | Ackis | who is this Fisker? |
| 00:54.12 | Shirik | orly |
| 00:54.17 | Shirik | he is vary good troll like u |
| 00:54.26 | Ackis | i r not troll |
| 00:54.28 | Ackis | i'm a human priest now |
| 00:54.36 | Shirik | o :( |
| 00:54.41 | Ackis | ya :( |
| 00:56.15 | Ackis | i want to have babies with Fisker |
| 00:56.30 | Shirik | anyway cogwheel I have no idea how that can segfault and they don't give you any info beyond that :( |
| 00:56.58 | Shirik | maybe now that the competition is over they'll release the test cases soon |
| 00:57.58 | cogwheel | i assume they guaranteed valid input? |
| 00:58.18 | Shadowed | Adys ping |
| 00:58.20 | Shirik | well supposedly |
| 00:58.33 | Shirik | It is mine (and a few others') hunch that they actually screwed something up on that question |
| 00:59.16 | Shirik | Like I said, I left automated, randomized tests (and did manual boundary tests) running for about 5 hours |
| 00:59.18 | Thunder_Child | *sigh* the drop rate on frost lotus is making me want to /wrists |
| 00:59.19 | Shirik | and didn't see a single crash |
| 01:00.38 | Shirik | you know what's scary though? |
| 01:00.49 | Shirik | During the competition, people can submit questions to judges and they'll respond for everyone to see |
| 01:00.56 | Shirik | some of the questions I saw coming in |
| 01:01.04 | Shirik | - What does SIGSEGV mean? |
| 01:01.09 | Shirik | - What does SIGABRT mean? |
| 01:01.12 | Shirik | Or my personal favorite |
| 01:01.21 | Shirik | - What is standard input? Will you give us the name of the file? |
| 01:01.30 | Shadowed | nice |
| 01:01.37 | Shirik | these people did not belong there :P |
| 01:05.45 | cogwheel | isn't really in the mood to play debugger :P I should really get my main machine back up and running (then i might give it a shot) |
| 01:06.12 | NightHawkTheSane | debugger? i hardly know her.. |
| 01:06.27 | Shirik | hugs cogwheel :P |
| 01:06.42 | Torhal | Ackis: Nooblet. |
| 01:06.45 | Adys | Shadowed: pong |
| 01:10.39 | *** join/#wowuidev Zyn- (n=zyn@h243n2-av-a11.ias.bredband.telia.com) |
| 01:14.29 | *** join/#wowuidev Recompense (n=chatzill@ip76.waterstone-moorpark.lax.ygnition.net) |
| 01:14.55 | Recompense | Howdy everyone |
| 01:15.54 | Cairenn | hi Recompense |
| 01:17.08 | Lopeppeppy | Morning |
| 01:17.37 | Recompense | Lopeppeppy: Morning? Where are you hailing from? :0 |
| 01:17.39 | Recompense | :) |
| 01:19.10 | Lopeppeppy | ~ugt |
| 01:19.11 | purl | it has been said that ugt is Universal Greeting Time. Created in #mipslinux, it is a rule that states that whenever somebody enters an IRC channel it is always morning, and it is always late when the person leaves. The local time of any other people in the channel, including the greeter, is irrelevant. http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html |
| 01:19.15 | Lopeppeppy | *giggle* |
| 01:21.44 | cogwheel | ~tickle Lopeppeppy |
| 01:21.45 | purl | ACTION jumps on Lopeppeppy, yelling "TICKLE FIGHT!!!!" |
| 01:22.13 | Lopeppeppy | Oh noes, help! |
| 01:22.27 | cogwheel | hates it when random jiggling of cords regularly fixes his computer |
| 01:22.38 | Lopeppeppy | Oh, sweetie, that sucks, I'm so sorry! |
| 01:23.01 | Lopeppeppy | Once upon a time, the father-in-law called us for tech support. We went to his house. His printer would not print. Brand new printer. |
| 01:23.08 | cogwheel | maybe the crashing will stop now... |
| 01:23.13 | Dagmar | Dude, just order new cabling |
| 01:23.27 | Lopeppeppy | I looked at the directions sticker on the top, it said 1) open cover and take out cartridge, 2) remove protective tape, 3) replace cartridge. |
| 01:23.30 | *** join/#wowuidev mojosdojo_ (n=gdbzet26@p4FEFC0D6.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 01:23.31 | Lopeppeppy | So I did. |
| 01:23.36 | Dagmar | hah |
| 01:23.43 | cogwheel | i jiggled the cards and ram sticks too so i couldn't narrow it down |
| 01:23.44 | Lopeppeppy | He asked me how I fixed it, I smiled sweetly and said RTFM and left the room. |
| 01:23.54 | Dagmar | That's kind of a bad sign for that model actually |
| 01:24.02 | batrick | Shirik: how'd you compile the code |
| 01:24.03 | Dagmar | It means the heads are probably not being protected when not in use |
| 01:24.21 | batrick | g++ file; # gives me errors |
| 01:24.34 | cogwheel | Dagmar: internal... sata, power, etc. |
| 01:25.09 | cogwheel | no such thing as "not in use imo" |
| 01:25.11 | Dagmar | cogwhell: So if the PSU cables are having any impact, there's serious physical damage |
| 01:25.12 | Lopeppeppy | It was brand new, I think that the cartridges just shipped covered so that they didn't leak or something. |
| 01:25.27 | Dagmar | The sata cables on the other hand can be a little more fragile |
| 01:25.32 | Dagmar | A shame you're not running Linux |
| 01:25.42 | cogwheel | Dagmar: like i said, i have no idea what it is. my best guess is one of the hds because it passes post fine but crashed before the windows loader started up |
| 01:25.59 | Dagmar | So definitely replace the SATA cables then |
| 01:26.18 | Dagmar | ..or just lob in some spares, depending on how much of a geek you are |
| 01:28.45 | Dagmar | There's really no downside to proactively replacing the SATA cables if you have spares |
| 01:29.01 | cogwheel | *nod* |
| 01:29.10 | cogwheel | 'cept if you're lazy <.< |
| 01:29.27 | Dagmar | If it fixes the problem, you can toss the old ones out. If it doesn't, you didn't spend much time bothering and you know they're all probably still good |
| 01:29.36 | batrick | ubuntu needs to make apt peer2peer |
| 01:30.05 | Dagmar | batrick: Probably technically useful, but not pragmatic yet |
| 01:30.28 | batrick | right now dl speeds are pathetic |
| 01:30.31 | Dagmar | You know all those people who claim the Blizz torrent program is ludicrously slow... |
| 01:30.39 | Dagmar | Most Ubuntu users are at about that knowledge level |
| 01:30.52 | Dagmar | They _just_ pushed out a huge update |
| 01:31.25 | Adys | whojustdidwhat? |
| 01:31.37 | Dagmar | Meh not today, but relatively speaking |
| 01:31.47 | Adys | wa |
| 01:32.15 | Beladona | taking a break. zip downloads are enabled on wowcompares. file downloads will be ready shortly |
| 01:32.20 | Dagmar | Besides which, going p2p would probably bring the RMS wannabes out of the woodwork |
| 01:32.38 | Lopeppeppy | Beladona, you rock |
| 01:32.55 | Dagmar | better to not have the holidays ruined by a bunch of idiots claiming that having users host the files doesn't satisfy the requirements of the GPL |
| 01:33.11 | Dagmar | ...although RMS wouldn't ever make that claim. |
| 01:33.54 | Adys | night |
| 01:37.52 | Dagmar | Oh wow |
| 01:38.03 | Dagmar | D'ja see this about the tap-fu guy http://smellslikedonkey.com/wordpress/?page_id=274 |
| 01:38.23 | Dagmar | Apple's store people are going to be catching some hell and soon |
| 01:38.30 | Dagmar | er iPhone store peopel |
| 01:38.54 | Dagmar | An actual dev has now noticed that it's substantially easier to pirate apps than it is to buy them |
| 01:41.14 | batrick | Dagmar: it's been shitty for about a month now |
| 01:41.17 | batrick | they need to change it |
| 01:41.23 | Dagmar | Yes, they do. |
| 01:41.42 | Dagmar | If you can make pirating that easy, you should sure as hell be able to make buying something that easy |
| 01:42.06 | batrick | and the GPL bullshit isn't valid so long as they host a seed... right? |
| 01:42.10 | Dagmar | When you're talking about impulse-level purchases of under four bucks you'd DAMN WELL better make certain it's easy to buy |
| 01:42.33 | Dagmar | batrick: Actually I more expect that people will simply ignore that canonical is operating the usual HTTP mirrors altogether. |
| 01:42.48 | Dagmar | Hence "wannabes" |
| 01:44.49 | Arrowmaster | batrick: http://debtorrent.alioth.debian.org/ http://www.camrdale.org/apt-p2p/ l2useaproperdistro |
| 01:45.46 | Arrowmaster | this stuff has been around for years |
| 01:45.48 | Corrodias | poor guy is learning about piracy for the first time i guess |
| 01:46.04 | Corrodias | though the statistical information is interesting! |
| 01:47.24 | Recompense | WoW Lua related question: Anyone know how to (properly) use PlayerModel:SetSequenceTime() to get a PlayerModel to loop through an animation? |
| 01:49.29 | *** join/#wowuidev Kraft_ (n=Chris@cpc1-cwma7-2-0-cust280.7-3.cable.virginmedia.com) |
| 01:54.14 | *** join/#wowuidev Gryphon (n=gryphon@c-76-104-164-148.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) |
| 01:56.00 | *** join/#wowuidev Kraftman (n=Chris@cpc1-cwma7-2-0-cust280.7-3.cable.virginmedia.com) |
| 02:04.39 | *** join/#wowuidev spode (i=spode@213-21-88-111.bon.t3.se) |
| 02:06.07 | batrick | Arrowmaster: i know about apt-p2p but ubuntu needs to adopt it |
| 02:06.17 | batrick | officially |
| 02:09.22 | tem | Blinking on the skybreaker is... different |
| 02:09.33 | tem | something tells me it used to result in horrible death |
| 02:10.09 | tekkub | what does it do now? |
| 02:10.18 | kd3 | "no blinking on transports" |
| 02:10.39 | tekkub | lol |
| 02:10.50 | tekkub | STARING CONTEST! |
| 02:10.56 | tekkub | the NPCs always win |
| 02:11.29 | tem | kd3, what did it do in beta? |
| 02:11.57 | kd3 | I don't remember. the only memory I have of skybreaker in beta was logging out on the ship and logging in dead after falling out of it |
| 02:12.10 | kd3 | that and it being a no-fly zone inside |
| 02:12.12 | tekkub | hehe |
| 02:12.21 | tekkub | gotta time the login correctly |
| 02:12.30 | tekkub | otherwise teh ship isn't under you |
| 02:14.17 | kd3 | bad thing is... way back in classic I ran in to a wine bug triggered on loading screens and I found out about it on a ship. |
| 02:14.38 | kd3 | timing logins so I was in range of the dock I wanted to get off at... not fun. |
| 02:15.50 | Fisker | slaps kd3 around a bit with a large trout |
| 02:15.57 | Fisker | you can't stop me |
| 02:16.11 | kd3 | not that I even try |
| 02:16.38 | Fisker | ok |
| 02:16.43 | Fisker | nastyfarts kd3 |
| 02:29.27 | cogwheel | >< another squashling on an already-known character |
| 02:38.58 | tem | I'm having a really great time ignoring the hell out of halloween |
| 02:43.04 | NightHawkTheSane | me to |
| 02:43.06 | NightHawkTheSane | o |
| 02:43.57 | *** join/#wowuidev Arrowmaster (i=arrow@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/ResponsibleForEverythingAndNothing/Arrowmaster) |
| 02:45.08 | tem | I got one look at those violet drakes people got after brewfest and realized I didn't care about what a long strange trip |
| 02:47.15 | *** join/#wowuidev Kandoko1 (n=Testing@adsl-068-159-119-207.sip.gsp.bellsouth.net) |
| 02:49.16 | tem | Also I was in real danger of giving myself a RSI doing that stupid fucking beer run "daily" |
| 02:50.49 | tekkub | the protodrakes are hideous |
| 02:50.55 | tekkub | I don't get why anyone would want one |
| 02:51.08 | Shadowed | ^ |
| 02:51.12 | *** join/#wowuidev PProvost (n=PProvost@71.229.131.32) |
| 02:51.23 | tekkub | also, you didn't need to do the beer run as much as last year... |
| 02:51.34 | tekkub | just get the clothes, do that achievement, and sell them back |
| 02:51.41 | tekkub | buy the other shit you need |
| 02:56.17 | tem | tekkub, I __really___ like the protodrake mounts |
| 02:56.23 | tem | but the violet one is ugly |
| 02:56.40 | tekkub | well then something is wrong with your brain |
| 02:56.55 | tem | The Ironbound is best |
| 02:57.09 | tem | but I can't wait for my frostwyrm from icecrown |
| 02:57.40 | tekkub | that the one with the runes? |
| 03:04.36 | *** join/#wowuidev Balreign (n=Balreign@ANantes-156-1-119-13.w90-12.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 03:07.40 | *** join/#wowuidev Seerah (n=Ryan@c-76-107-191-65.hsd1.tn.comcast.net) |
| 03:07.40 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o Seerah] by ChanServ |
| 03:13.52 | *** join/#wowuidev kdtresh (n=kdtresh@adsl-75-15-203-210.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net) |
| 03:15.34 | Codayus_ | If you don't like the protodrakes, then there's something broken deep inside you. :-( |
| 03:19.17 | Balreign | oh so because you like something everybody should like it? |
| 03:20.12 | *** part/#wowuidev Seerah (n=Ryan@c-76-107-191-65.hsd1.tn.comcast.net) |
| 03:35.08 | ZorbaBeta | the violet protodrake is objectively awesome |
| 03:35.32 | kdtresh | objectively compared to what? |
| 03:35.46 | ZorbaBeta | If it needed to be compared, it wouldn't be very objective, would it? :D |
| 03:36.06 | ZorbaBeta | it is, however, *strictly superior* to all other non-310% mounts. |
| 03:36.18 | ZorbaBeta | In terms of looks, and objectively so. *nod* |
| 03:36.28 | kdtresh | if it is objectively better, it should be difinitively superior to everything |
| 03:36.49 | ZorbaBeta | I said it was awesome - there are some very few mounts which are objectively *more* awesome. |
| 03:37.09 | kdtresh | i was just asking for objective qualification ;) |
| 03:37.36 | ZorbaBeta | but basically the only better mounts are the ulduar25 mounts ;) |
| 03:37.43 | ZorbaBeta | (mimiron's head is the best mount ever) |
| 03:38.09 | kdtresh | i doubt i'll ever have an ulduar 25 mount |
| 03:38.16 | kdtresh | i'm happy with my horseman's reins |
| 03:38.21 | kdtresh | and my bronze drake from CoS |
| 03:40.53 | ZorbaBeta | I rather like the green protodrake, myself |
| 03:41.02 | ZorbaBeta | it's kind of a pity none of my mounts get any use anymore, now that I got the violet protodrake |
| 03:44.27 | kdtresh | i rode my nether ray until i got the bronze drake last week |
| 03:44.34 | kdtresh | and then an hour later i got the horseman's reins |
| 03:56.03 | Fisker | slaps cogwheel around a bit with a large trout |
| 03:56.10 | Fisker | i want the hallowed helm |
| 03:58.00 | *** join/#wowuidev sylvanaar (n=sylvanaa@unaffiliated/sylvanaar) |
| 04:00.50 | Thunder_Child | i has it |
| 04:01.15 | Fisker | i wants it |
| 04:01.45 | kdtresh | my bank alt got it from trick or treating |
| 04:02.40 | Jerub | i have it from HH. |
| 04:02.46 | Jerub | but i need the damn pet |
| 04:02.52 | *** join/#wowuidev Wobin (n=Wobin@124-170-157-210.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 04:02.59 | Jerub | i hate how a random drop decides if i get the title |
| 04:03.28 | Fisker | i already got it |
| 04:03.45 | Jerub | i just did H nexus with 4 druids and a shamman. all taurens. |
| 04:04.01 | Jerub | it was boomkin, kitty, bear(me) and tree too |
| 04:05.50 | Corrodias | the best party ever. |
| 04:06.24 | Jerub | indeed |
| 04:06.26 | Jerub | no DKs |
| 04:06.27 | Jerub | ;) |
| 04:06.40 | Jerub | we did, however, nearly wipe because the tree was skinning |
| 04:06.50 | Jerub | and the boomkin forgot reagents for bres |
| 04:07.04 | ZorbaBeta | there was a lv64 DK trying to recruit for For The Alliance in /2 on my server last night |
| 04:07.14 | ZorbaBeta | at one point he resorted to just spamming every lv80 who talked in trade |
| 04:07.15 | Jerub | lame |
| 04:07.20 | ZorbaBeta | even if what they were saying was "lol you're an idiot" |
| 04:07.34 | ZorbaBeta | I joined just to see what his raid makeup was. Seven death knights and me. I left. |
| 04:08.03 | Wobin | So, have we heard anything new from Mr Client Killer? |
| 04:08.45 | Arrowmaster | no hes banned from the channel |
| 04:09.15 | Arrowmaster | well not this channel but wowace |
| 04:09.37 | Wobin | Jerub, hehe, I did a HVH last night, with a pally tank, ele shaman, enh shaman, warlock and mage |
| 04:09.48 | Wobin | that was fun |
| 04:10.12 | Wobin | I think I only had to heal with Maelstrom weapon twice |
| 04:10.48 | *** join/#wowuidev Sesshu| (n=Sesshu@ip-202-16.travedsl.de) |
| 04:12.27 | Jerub | Mr Client Killer? |
| 04:13.35 | Arrowmaster | ~logs |
| 04:13.35 | purl | All conversations are logged to http://ibot.rikers.org/channel, where "channel" is replaced by the URL-encoded channel name, such as %23freenode for #freenode. Lines starting with spaces are not logged. |
| 04:13.51 | Arrowmaster | wowace from 4am to 10am EDT yesterday |
| 04:17.21 | cogwheel | http://cogwheel.info/upload/files/Stewart.jpg |
| 04:26.05 | Jerub | cogwheel: oh, catsoup |
| 04:30.10 | Jerub | so yeha, i don't understand what happened in wowace yesterday |
| 04:31.43 | kd3 | I'm scrolling through the log now |
| 04:31.45 | kd3 | wtf |
| 04:31.56 | kd3 | w.....tf |
| 04:32.01 | cogwheel | ?? |
| 04:32.30 | kd3 | http://ibot.rikers.org/%23wowace/20091024.html.gz |
| 04:32.34 | kd3 | starting around 6:50 |
| 04:35.03 | *** join/#wowuidev Seerah (n=Ryan@c-76-107-191-65.hsd1.tn.comcast.net) |
| 04:35.03 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o Seerah] by ChanServ |
| 04:55.29 | Thunder_Child | is Corgrath and dorkins the same idiot? |
| 04:56.39 | ZorbaBeta | bah why can't storage and bandwidth be free |
| 04:56.46 | ZorbaBeta | tries to figure out how to shrink QH substantially |
| 04:57.11 | Jerub | is this output right? |
| 04:57.12 | Jerub | *** kick/#wowace [Corgrath!n=ckknight@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/CurseStaff/CurseForge/ckknight] by ckknight (ckknight) |
| 04:57.20 | Jerub | because that's saying that Corgrath *is* ckknight |
| 04:57.46 | Thunder_Child | well he logged on with "253-232-96-87.cust.blixtvik.se" |
| 04:58.03 | Thunder_Child | thats a kick Jerub |
| 04:58.04 | Jerub | ooh, sorry |
| 04:58.07 | Thunder_Child | "join/#wowace Corgrath (n=isntanfu@253-232-96-87.cust.blixtvik.se)" |
| 04:58.09 | Jerub | the ban wias the line before |
| 04:58.13 | Thunder_Child | thats what he came on with |
| 05:00.02 | Jerub | corgrath had an interesting idea but clearly didn't understand it. |
| 05:00.08 | Jerub | i still think it's interesting :) |
| 05:01.04 | *** join/#wowuidev Torhal (n=callahan@74-132-200-5.dhcp.insightbb.com) |
| 05:03.59 | ckknight | I'm no Swede! |
| 05:04.13 | Thunder_Child | says you |
| 05:06.01 | DWSR | What should I do for boa weapons for a rogue? |
| 05:06.15 | DWSR | sword/dagger?" |
| 05:07.24 | Thunder_Child | ZorbaBeta, compression |
| 05:07.34 | Wobin | Jerub, IT'S CLOUD COMPUTING |
| 05:08.04 | ZorbaBeta | thunder, already am compressing |
| 05:08.13 | ZorbaBeta | (very heavily so, at that) |
| 05:08.28 | Wobin | omg |
| 05:08.32 | Wobin | THUNDER CLOUD COMPUTING |
| 05:08.34 | Wobin | what a great idea |
| 05:08.50 | Wobin | I'll make millions |
| 05:11.51 | *** part/#wowuidev Seerah (n=Ryan@c-76-107-191-65.hsd1.tn.comcast.net) |
| 05:20.39 | *** join/#wowuidev stolenlegacy (n=stolenle@86.33.207.79) |
| 05:29.43 | Thunder_Child | ZorbaBeta, what do you get it down to? |
| 05:30.42 | ZorbaBeta | thunder, well, before this feature, 15mb pre-zip, 8mb post-zip. after this feature, 20mb/13mb. |
| 05:30.51 | Jerub | ZorbaBeta: what feature? |
| 05:31.04 | ZorbaBeta | jerub, trying to reimplement "/qh find". Problem is I need a full-text index of creature names. |
| 05:31.15 | Thunder_Child | i can get what i have doen to 5mb, the the compresssion is esoteric |
| 05:31.22 | Jerub | can't you generate the FT index on demand? |
| 05:31.25 | ZorbaBeta | I may, as a partial solution, just restrict it to enUS. not entirely happy about that, but it'd solve the space problems at least |
| 05:31.41 | Thunder_Child | s/doen/down/ |
| 05:31.45 | ZorbaBeta | jerub, sure, given five or ten minutes of CPU time and a pile of RAM. |
| 05:31.55 | Jerub | that way you'll only generate the index for the right language |
| 05:32.07 | Thunder_Child | ...*sigh* i cant type today |
| 05:32.14 | Jerub | ZorbaBeta: sure, make it do it the first time you use the feature |
| 05:32.37 | ZorbaBeta | and then I have to store it in the dude's savedvariables, and if I want it to be compressed properly I'm looking at another 20-30 minutes of compression |
| 05:32.45 | ZorbaBeta | and it has to be rebuilt with every single database update |
| 05:32.47 | ZorbaBeta | that is not a solution :P |
| 05:33.12 | Jerub | what about having one index per zone? |
| 05:34.03 | ZorbaBeta | doesn't actually help much. people don't really want to search per-zone, they want to search globally |
| 05:34.14 | ZorbaBeta | and then I'd also need to rig up a map of which creatures existed in which zones |
| 05:34.26 | Jerub | ok |
| 05:34.49 | ZorbaBeta | really, I think the solution here is better compression, restricting to enUS, and possibly doing some diagnostics of what everything is being used for and tossing out monsters that shouldn't actually be included. |
| 05:34.56 | ZorbaBeta | there may be progress doable in all of those categories. |
| 05:58.48 | *** join/#wowuidev Corrodias (i=no@75.17.196.43) |
| 06:07.27 | Wobin | hehe, go to google |
| 06:07.39 | Wobin | and type "I like" and see what the first suggestion is |
| 06:09.26 | ScytheBlade1 | has an idea |
| 06:09.42 | ScytheBlade1 | ... I was totally wrong |
| 06:10.07 | Corrodias | as always |
| 06:10.26 | Wobin | I'm not sure anyone here could have predicted that =P |
| 06:14.56 | Arrowmaster | totally wrong too |
| 06:40.24 | *** join/#wowuidev Torhal_ (n=callahan@74-132-200-5.dhcp.insightbb.com) |
| 06:40.45 | *** join/#wowuidev Ycarene (i=jporterf@24.116.56.41) |
| 06:41.39 | ScytheBlade1 | ZorbaBeta: or per-locale downloads |
| 06:42.45 | ScytheBlade1 | per-locale LoD addons, rather |
| 06:43.42 | ZorbaBeta | yeah, I'd do that if I had a good way of handling it, but I don't |
| 06:43.51 | ZorbaBeta | I don't want to go and deploy a dozen different files on curse.com or wowinterface |
| 06:44.12 | ZorbaBeta | it would just be confusing and confusion is never a good way to get users. |
| 06:44.20 | ScytheBlade1 | Confusing, maybe |
| 06:44.47 | ZorbaBeta | if I had some way to split things up for the clients to handle efficiently and properly, I'd do it, but I don't |
| 06:45.02 | ScytheBlade1 | what WoW needs is locale-specific file loading |
| 06:45.19 | ScytheBlade1 | Declare the same table in 5 different files named after the various locales |
| 06:45.24 | ScytheBlade1 | WoW only loads the one it needs |
| 06:45.26 | ZorbaBeta | to make it more general, I want on-demand file loading |
| 06:45.36 | ZorbaBeta | I want to be able to specify a list of files that I *might* load, and then, in the future, possibly load them. |
| 06:45.47 | ScytheBlade1 | Well you have that |
| 06:45.48 | ScytheBlade1 | :) |
| 06:45.51 | ScytheBlade1 | It is just a pain |
| 06:45.55 | ScytheBlade1 | anywho sleep |
| 06:46.02 | ZorbaBeta | no, I don't. I have a messy horrible version that requires that people install multiple UI mods |
| 06:54.31 | Arrowmaster | ok something is seriously fucking broken now |
| 06:54.51 | Arrowmaster | -rw------- 1 arrow arrow 377M 2009-10-24 02:14 [Ayako]_A_Certain_Scientific_Railgun_-_04_[HQ][H264][1960B5EE].mkv |
| 06:54.55 | Arrowmaster | -rw-r--r-- 1 arrow arrow 377M 2009-10-23 22:00 [Ayako]_A_Certain_Scientific_Railgun_-_04_[HQ][H264][1960B5EE].âmkv |
| 06:55.01 | Arrowmaster | how the fuck did i do that |
| 06:55.32 | Arrowmaster | the top one is even colored in ls while the bottom one isnt |
| 06:58.45 | Arrowmaster | AH HA |
| 06:58.58 | Arrowmaster | zsh tab completion is fucking awesome |
| 06:59.25 | Arrowmaster | its showing a ".<200b>mkv" whatever that means |
| 07:00.11 | *** join/#wowuidev Ycarene (i=jporterf@24.116.56.41) |
| 07:12.45 | Arrowmaster | and U+200B is a unicode zero width space |
| 07:31.06 | *** join/#wowuidev Thelyna (n=burp@219.89.246.193) |
| 07:43.59 | Fisker | bah |
| 07:44.13 | Fisker | gotten 11 masks on a mask for all occasions but no hallowed helm yet |
| 07:44.50 | *** join/#wowuidev smcn (i=smcn@67.166.76.157) |
| 07:46.42 | Fisker | slaps cog|sleep around a bit with a large trout |
| 07:46.47 | Fisker | i hate you cog|sleep |
| 07:46.53 | Fisker | i hope you have a lot of nightmares :( |
| 07:48.32 | *** join/#wowuidev Vlakarados (n=lazybumn@87.226.33.167) |
| 08:02.34 | *** join/#wowuidev Repo (n=supybot@repos.curseforge.net) |
| 08:03.07 | Thunder_Child | i have 5 hallowed helms Fisker |
| 08:03.46 | zenzelezz | is that a euphemism for condoms? |
| 08:04.12 | Thunder_Child | no, it's a eupemism for a plate helm from the headless horseman |
| 08:09.54 | ZorbaBeta | if you know what I mean |
| 08:10.04 | ZorbaBeta | "plate helm", wink wink |
| 08:10.17 | Fisker | slaps Thunder_Child around a bit with a large trout |
| 08:10.17 | Fisker | slaps zenzelezz around a bit with a large trout |
| 08:10.28 | Fisker | no it's not Thunder_Child |
| 08:10.37 | *** join/#wowuidev Repo (n=supybot@repos.curseforge.net) |
| 08:12.08 | Thunder_Child | ZorbaBeta, if a plate helm is a euphemism to you, then i weep for what you do in the bedroom |
| 08:12.19 | Fisker | it's no damn plate helm |
| 08:12.22 | Fisker | i am going to die you |
| 08:12.47 | ZorbaBeta | thunder, we call it "raiding lady vashj" |
| 08:12.54 | *** join/#wowuidev Vilkku (n=Vilkku@86-60-145-217-dyn-dsl.ssp.fi) |
| 08:13.44 | Thunder_Child | oh, it's the fake Jack-o-Lantern helm |
| 08:14.26 | Fisker | ^^ |
| 08:14.57 | ZorbaBeta | last year I was really worried I wouldn't get a squashling |
| 08:15.08 | ZorbaBeta | then they made squashlings drop from trick-or-treat bags and I got, like, four |
| 08:16.20 | Fisker | .3 |
| 08:16.41 | Fisker | i was getting a lot of %hp food for expansion |
| 08:16.44 | Fisker | then i was b& |
| 08:16.45 | Fisker | :( |
| 08:16.57 | ZorbaBeta | I'm picking up a lot of that also |
| 08:22.21 | Arrowmaster | bah i really need to get a new remote for my ceiling fan, had to go steal the remote for the one in the other room and flip the channel switches inside it to the channel for this fan just to turn it down |
| 08:23.09 | *** join/#wowuidev Srosh (n=Srosh@213.39.222.42) |
| 08:29.47 | *** join/#wowuidev Subdino (n=vincent@ALille-154-1-79-146.w90-34.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 08:35.42 | *** join/#wowuidev Ycarene (i=jporterf@24.116.56.41) |
| 08:39.57 | Fisker | so tomorrow is borderlands time |
| 08:48.52 | Thunder_Child | borderlands seems to be L4D with substance |
| 08:49.05 | Fisker | fuck you! |
| 08:49.11 | Thunder_Child | no thanks |
| 08:49.19 | Fisker | you are teh wrong |
| 08:49.28 | Thunder_Child | not about L4D |
| 08:49.41 | Thunder_Child | thats more repeditive than most games |
| 08:50.40 | *** join/#wowuidev Caleb| (n=caleb@dsl51B78A63.pool.t-online.hu) |
| 08:51.05 | Fisker | naw dawg |
| 08:51.27 | jnwhiteh | Wow, I missed the discussion where the website that fully documents the API only exists to "Sell you a |
| 08:51.29 | jnwhiteh | $50 book" |
| 08:52.03 | jnwhiteh | Mind you that the book has never cost more than $30 and the only way it publicizes it in the first place is if you click the "store" link. O.o |
| 08:52.03 | Thunder_Child | jnwhiteh, hence my comparison to the other retarded person from wowace |
| 08:52.09 | jnwhiteh | hehehe |
| 08:52.25 | jnwhiteh | where on earth do these people come from |
| 08:52.30 | jnwhiteh | and WHY the fucking sense of entitlement. |
| 08:52.45 | Thunder_Child | takes all kinds |
| 08:53.25 | Antiarc | jnwhiteh: what the hell, another one? |
| 08:53.42 | Antiarc | I've been gone all day and it's like I log on to stupidity that yet never ceases |
| 08:54.04 | Fisker | i totally agree though |
| 08:54.21 | Thunder_Child | just because the stupidity usually stays away from out channels you shouldnt be surprised when it comes |
| 08:54.42 | Thunder_Child | s/out/our/ |
| 08:56.29 | nevcairiel | I just gave up on that guy yesterday and went to bed |
| 08:56.32 | nevcairiel | silly person |
| 08:58.44 | Fisker | lols |
| 08:58.53 | Fisker | L4D2 and Borderlands still outselling MW2 |
| 09:01.24 | Thunder_Child | it isnt out yet Fisker |
| 09:02.13 | Fisker | L4D2 and Borderlands isn't either |
| 09:03.16 | Thunder_Child | borderlands is for console |
| 09:05.51 | Fisker | nope |
| 09:06.37 | Thunder_Child | oct 20 |
| 09:07.16 | Fisker | consolefags |
| 09:07.22 | Thunder_Child | agreed |
| 09:09.13 | Antiarc | Is Curse dead yet? |
| 09:09.25 | jnwhiteh | Curse died last night |
| 09:09.27 | jnwhiteh | facebook killed it |
| 09:09.36 | Antiarc | Aww :( |
| 09:09.47 | Antiarc | Well, time to go distribute my apps in TEH CLOUDZ |
| 09:11.26 | Fisker | that sucks jnwhiteh |
| 09:13.49 | zenzelezz | mumbles incoherently about VRAM detection problems |
| 09:14.53 | Fisker | slaps zenzelezz around a bit with a large trout |
| 09:18.13 | ZorbaBeta | one mask left! |
| 09:18.26 | Fisker | slaps ZorbaBeta around a bit with a large trout |
| 09:18.35 | Fisker | i find it funny |
| 09:18.43 | Fisker | gotten even more masks this year than i got last year |
| 09:18.54 | Fisker | only need 9 masks now |
| 09:19.01 | Fisker | but still no hallowed helm :( |
| 09:23.17 | Fisker | comfort me ZorbaBeta |
| 09:24.51 | Antiarc | \o/ |
| 09:24.52 | Antiarc | http://i35.tinypic.com/11rqj5g.jpg |
| 09:25.01 | Antiarc | ArP capped, yellow hit capped, and expertise capped. |
| 09:25.04 | Antiarc | I am a very happy rogue. |
| 09:25.20 | Fisker | yellow hit? |
| 09:25.27 | Antiarc | specials/poisons |
| 09:25.30 | zenzelezz | why are your shoulders at 98%? |
| 09:25.37 | Fisker | specials only have like 5%? :o |
| 09:25.38 | nevcairiel | the dummy hit back |
| 09:25.42 | Antiarc | Specials are 8% vs bosses |
| 09:25.51 | Fisker | what axes are those? |
| 09:26.16 | Antiarc | Heroic Lion's Maw and heroic Lionhead Slasher |
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| 09:26.27 | ZorbaBeta | antiarc, how much damage do you do? |
| 09:26.42 | Antiarc | ZorbaBeta: Depends on the fight. I do about 8k DPS on heroic beasts (25). |
| 09:26.59 | ZorbaBeta | nice |
| 09:27.50 | Antiarc | 7.6k, I guess |
| 09:27.52 | Antiarc | Not quite 8 |
| 09:27.54 | ZorbaBeta | I wonder if they're ever going to rebalance damage numbers. at this point the cataclysm heroics will start at, like, 5k per person. |
| 09:28.16 | Antiarc | Well, that's fully raid buffed with heroism |
| 09:28.17 | ZorbaBeta | (and 2/3 of the way through Cataclysm, people will be calling you a scrub and kicking you if you're not doing 20k) |
| 09:28.37 | Antiarc | Also, the way they're changing gear in Cataclysm is going to very significantly flatten the damage acceleration curve. |
| 09:29.23 | ZorbaBeta | I don't think that's true - it's not gear itemization that causes that, it's them wanting to boost gear every tier |
| 09:29.38 | Antiarc | It's very true. You know how itemization budgets work in WoW, right? |
| 09:29.45 | Fisker | They originally didn't want to do heroics either |
| 09:29.53 | ZorbaBeta | Yup. |
| 09:29.54 | Fisker | But to do it they must implement new gear |
| 09:29.57 | Fisker | heroics = hardmode of course |
| 09:29.58 | Antiarc | Each additional point costs (base point stat * number of points ^ 1.5) points out of the item budget. |
| 09:30.11 | Antiarc | So, the fewer individual stats you put on a piece of gear, the less total benefit you can get out of it. |
| 09:30.21 | ZorbaBeta | yeah, I know that. It's still irrelevant. |
| 09:30.28 | Antiarc | How do you figure? |
| 09:30.35 | ZorbaBeta | If each piece of gear had only one stat on it, then boosting the item level by 8% still boosts power by 8% |
| 09:30.52 | Antiarc | By reducing the number of stats they spread budget around in, the difference between ilevels means that the net power gain between tiers is flattened. |
| 09:30.54 | ZorbaBeta | and that's how item level works. increasing item level by 8% ---> increase stats by 8% |
| 09:30.59 | Antiarc | Uhhh. No. |
| 09:31.07 | Antiarc | It increases budget by 8%. |
| 09:31.24 | Antiarc | Marginal stat cost is relative to the amount of the stat already on the piece of gear. |
| 09:31.33 | ZorbaBeta | what, seriously? I've never read that before |
| 09:31.40 | Antiarc | Going from 0 AGI to 10 AGI costs very little. Going from 90 AGI to 100 AGI costs an assload of item budget. |
| 09:31.44 | ZorbaBeta | adding entire *new* stats changes the cost somewhat, though always going lower |
| 09:31.49 | ZorbaBeta | I don't buy that for a second. Citation needed :P |
| 09:32.15 | Antiarc | I'll see if I can dig it up, but the budgeting formulae were reverse engineered a very long time ago, and have held pretty constant |
| 09:32.26 | Antiarc | That's what I mean about how budgeting works. |
| 09:32.32 | ZorbaBeta | yeah, and they don't say that |
| 09:32.39 | Fisker | Blizzard have confirmed it as well |
| 09:32.44 | Antiarc | ^ |
| 09:32.45 | ZorbaBeta | item budgeting says that, with a single stat, increasing the stat by one point is a linear increase |
| 09:32.55 | Antiarc | Nope. That's not accurate at all. |
| 09:32.58 | ZorbaBeta | did they confirm the equation, or antiarc's interpretation? |
| 09:32.59 | ZorbaBeta | http://www.wowwiki.com/Item_level |
| 09:32.59 | Fisker | Heck why do you think Paladin T9 has begun to get Armor Penetration :E |
| 09:32.59 | Antiarc | The cost is exponential. |
| 09:33.11 | ZorbaBeta | because I know what that equation says, and there's no exponential gain for increasing a single stat. it is pure linear. |
| 09:33.33 | Fisker | Armor Penetration is worthless for a pally usually, but stats are so expensive that the amount of armor penetration gotten outweighs the stats gained even for a paladin |
| 09:33.35 | Antiarc | Yeah, see the part where it says (StatValue[1]*StatMod[1])1.7095 ? |
| 09:33.50 | ZorbaBeta | Man, you really need to read this equation better |
| 09:33.53 | Antiarc | That means that the more of a stat you have on a piece of gear, the more each individual point of that stat costs. |
| 09:34.00 | ZorbaBeta | read the *entire* equation |
| 09:34.03 | ZorbaBeta | including the bit at the end |
| 09:34.12 | ZorbaBeta | ^(1/1.7095) |
| 09:34.29 | Antiarc | I implemented the entire equation in a Javascript app way back when. I've got practical experience with it :P |
| 09:34.34 | Antiarc | "The heart of the formula is to take each modified stat value to the 1.7095th power, sum up these terms and draw the 1.7095th root from the sum. This process makes single, high values of one stat more expensive than multiple, lower stats." |
| 09:34.37 | Antiarc | Which is what I'm saying. |
| 09:34.45 | ZorbaBeta | No, that's not what you're saying at all |
| 09:34.50 | ZorbaBeta | in fact you just disproved what you're saying |
| 09:35.02 | Antiarc | It's precisely what I'm saying. Dumping all your item budget into fewer points means less total gain. |
| 09:35.03 | ZorbaBeta | what you're saying is that the numbers get more expensive as you add more of them. That item level to stat is a sublinear relationship. |
| 09:35.12 | ZorbaBeta | That's completely different from the original claim :P |
| 09:35.12 | Antiarc | The average cost per point goes up. |
| 09:35.25 | ZorbaBeta | Yes. But it doesn't go up with the number of item levels you have. |
| 09:35.41 | ZorbaBeta | It goes up with the inverse of the number of individual statistic blocks you have. |
| 09:35.43 | Antiarc | I never said that. What I said is that each additional point of a stat increases the cost of that stat on the piece of gear. |
| 09:35.59 | ZorbaBeta | And that's true. I've never argued that. But that's also irrelevant. |
| 09:36.04 | Antiarc | By consolidating gear into fewer types of stats, they're flattening the benefit you can get out of an ilevel increase. |
| 09:36.20 | ZorbaBeta | No. Again, that's just flat-out wrong. You gain fewer absolute stats. You gain the same amount of relative stattage. |
| 09:36.26 | ZorbaBeta | And on top of that, it's *still* irrelevant |
| 09:36.40 | ZorbaBeta | Blizzard already controlled stat gain on items. They could have just raised item level more slowly. |
| 09:37.13 | ZorbaBeta | The problem isn't the equations or the math that they're somehow beholden to. The problem is that they feel like they need to make people markedly more powerful in each tier, and in Wrath, that got away with them thanks to the otherwise-excellent multi-type raids. |
| 09:37.48 | ZorbaBeta | But that has nothing to do with item level budgets. That was just a design mistake. :) |
| 09:37.54 | Antiarc | Well sure, nobody wants to get less powerful, and ilevels are a very visible measure to the player community, so jumping 4 ilevels in a tier would cause riots. |
| 09:39.16 | ZorbaBeta | If they increase the ilvl by 10%, they increase the stats by 10%. That is literally how it works. If they want to tell people that the tier's going up by 6.5%, they're gonna have to raise power by 6.5%. |
| 09:39.45 | ZorbaBeta | If you want to plug these numbers in, it's really easy to demonstrate. |
| 09:43.25 | Dezzimal | don't most pieces of gear have the same variety and quantity of stats anyway |
| 09:43.37 | Dezzimal | all rings have two base stats + 2 combat ratings for the most part |
| 09:43.47 | Antiarc | It's funny you say that, because I'm getting wildly divergent results in some spot checks. |
| 09:44.07 | ZorbaBeta | dezzimal, yeah, the stat counts are fixed, although, curiously, it varies depending on armor type and spec |
| 09:44.28 | Dezzimal | yeah there are a pair of pants off of vezax-10hard which are 226 but math out to 234 or something |
| 09:44.30 | Dezzimal | cloth |
| 09:44.40 | ZorbaBeta | plate dps is 4 stats, spellplate is 5, mail physical dps is 6 |
| 09:45.02 | ZorbaBeta | antiarc, what're you checking? also, are you using actual items, or coming up with simpler theoretical items to test? |
| 09:45.34 | Antiarc | http://pastie.org/668789 |
| 09:45.36 | Antiarc | Splain that. |
| 09:45.53 | Antiarc | 5.3% increase in ilevel leading to a 12-14% increase in each stat? Your theory is wrong. |
| 09:45.58 | ZorbaBeta | Alright. The formula isn't an average, and with multiple stats involved, is not strict addition. |
| 09:46.20 | ZorbaBeta | Here, try this. Increase *all the stats* by 5.3%. |
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| 09:46.37 | ZorbaBeta | ah, never mind, I see now |
| 09:47.23 | ZorbaBeta | huh, interesting. Alright, there's something weirder going on. But I suspect those are not going to fit with the formula. |
| 09:47.34 | ZorbaBeta | actually you know what it is, it's the gems |
| 09:47.38 | Dezzimal | what ilevel do those rings math out to |
| 09:47.38 | Dezzimal | anyway |
| 09:47.39 | ZorbaBeta | do that comparison with something ungemmed :P |
| 09:48.54 | Antiarc | The gem slots are the same. |
| 09:49.14 | ZorbaBeta | Yeah, but they bias the numbers. It's not quite clear how gem slots contribute to ilvl. |
| 09:49.27 | ZorbaBeta | Most assumptions are that they're a fixed cost for each slot. |
| 09:49.34 | Antiarc | They're a flat cost. They originally had the cost float with ilvl, but that actually made higher ilvl items worse. |
| 09:49.41 | Antiarc | This is all documented in early BC times. |
| 09:49.57 | ZorbaBeta | Well, then they're going to bias the calculation pretty heavily, yep. |
| 09:50.15 | Antiarc | What are you basing YOUR theories on, exactly? |
| 09:50.27 | ZorbaBeta | http://www.wowwiki.com/Item_level <-- This. I'm describing the equation there. |
| 09:50.33 | ZorbaBeta | I don't know what you're describing, but it's not that equation. |
| 09:50.34 | Antiarc | Because I implemented an ilevel calculator that was spot-on before Blizzard started giving us item levels. |
| 09:50.40 | Antiarc | I have a pretty good grasp of how it works. |
| 09:50.56 | Antiarc | I wrote it to find over/underbudgeted items, and to determine how off the budget they were, and it worked :P |
| 09:51.21 | Antiarc | And my calculator was based on Hyzenthlei's work. |
| 09:51.24 | Antiarc | Which you're quoting there. |
| 09:51.54 | Fisker | the important thing is that you're wrong Antiarc |
| 09:52.33 | Antiarc | Here, I'm just going to math it out for you in plain easy numbers. |
| 09:52.55 | Antiarc | http://i33.tinypic.com/28c0kzt.png |
| 09:53.05 | ZorbaBeta | dammit, you know what, I think you're right. I think I've somehow been reading it wrong :P My apologies. |
| 09:53.08 | Antiarc | Top left is the control. That's the 245-level stats from the Van Cleef's chest. |
| 09:53.15 | Antiarc | Top right is Van Cleef's + 1 AGI. |
| 09:53.22 | Antiarc | The item cost difference is 0.63. |
| 09:53.30 | Antiarc | The bottom left is the same setup except with 50 AGI rather than 120. |
| 09:53.35 | Antiarc | The bottom right is the 51 AGI. |
| 09:53.40 | Antiarc | The item cost difference is 0.38. |
| 09:53.53 | Antiarc | The more of a single stat you add, the more each point of that stat costs. As I started this conversation by saying. :P |
| 09:54.25 | ZorbaBeta | although you're still actually describing the thing I had in mind, but the thing I had in mind wasn't the thing I think it may now actually do :P |
| 09:54.27 | Antiarc | Thus, by consolidating item budget into a smaller number of stats, they deflate the relative power of an ilevel increase. |
| 09:54.53 | Antiarc | 10 Wrath ilevels might be an equivalent increase, to, say , 17 cataclysm ilevels because the stats will be allocated less optimally |
| 09:55.00 | Antiarc | (Those are made up numbers, of course) |
| 09:55.42 | Antiarc | So, they can still have a 13-ilevel tier jump or whatever, since that's what the player base looks at, but it'll deflate the effective power gain curve. |
| 09:55.48 | Antiarc | And that's all I was saying. :P |
| 09:58.03 | Antiarc | It's a lot of the same reason that warriors were taking leather in Ulduar |
| 09:58.33 | Antiarc | Leather has its budget spread out over a lot more different stats, and tends to make a better use of its item budget, clobbering the plate itemization for equivalent item cost. |
| 10:01.39 | ZorbaBeta | y'know what, no, disagree. Go back to your item calculator. Choose five stats, weight 1.0. Set them all to 100. |
| 10:02.02 | Wobin | oh no Antiarc, you should have stopped while you were ahead =) |
| 10:02.19 | Antiarc | Okay, now what? |
| 10:02.23 | ZorbaBeta | The item level will end up at 256.37. Now set them to 200. The item level will end up at 512.75. |
| 10:02.30 | ZorbaBeta | 512.75 is exactly twice 256.37. |
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| 10:03.00 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v Cide] by ChanServ |
| 10:03.37 | ZorbaBeta | hah, should have seen that the time, I'm slow today. Your spreadsheet isn't even telling you what you're claiming. |
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| 10:04.25 | ZorbaBeta | You're only increasing the agi. So, yes, the total of the agi goes up, and nothing else does. But the final part of the formula negates that, that's the entire point of it! I made the same damn mistake you did for a bit. |
| 10:05.15 | Antiarc | Okay, but try this little experiment: Take your 5 stats, set them at 100 per, and weight at 1. |
| 10:05.26 | Antiarc | That's 500 stat points allocated, for a total cost of 256.374. |
| 10:05.33 | ZorbaBeta | In the case where you have one value, it is a strict average. With more than one value, it rebalances such that more equal breakdowns are cheaper, such that an item with 100 and 0 on it is worth nearly the same as an item with 100 and 1 on it. |
| 10:05.35 | Antiarc | Now, consolidate that into 2 stat points of 250 apiece. |
| 10:05.42 | Antiarc | Your total cost jumps to 375. |
| 10:05.46 | Antiarc | For the same 500 points. |
| 10:05.46 | ZorbaBeta | Oh, yes. No argument. |
| 10:05.49 | ZorbaBeta | I have never argued that once ever. |
| 10:05.51 | Antiarc | That's more or less what I'm saying. |
| 10:05.55 | ZorbaBeta | Never. Not once. |
| 10:05.59 | ZorbaBeta | No, it's not. |
| 10:06.00 | Antiarc | I think we're just missing each other here :P |
| 10:06.11 | ZorbaBeta | I am saying this |
| 10:06.13 | ZorbaBeta | Take any item in the game. |
| 10:06.19 | Antiarc | My core argument is that by reducing the number of stats that the budget is spent in, you end up with fewer total stat gains. |
| 10:06.21 | ZorbaBeta | Increase its stats by 5%. Recalculate its item level. |
| 10:06.28 | ZorbaBeta | Its item level is now 5% higher. |
| 10:06.49 | ZorbaBeta | Now, theory: the performance of players is the game is linearly dependent with item level |
| 10:06.51 | Antiarc | I think we're going to find that empirically that doesn't work out, but I'll try to find an example without gem slots to show it either way. |
| 10:07.12 | ZorbaBeta | If so, then the performance of players is linearly dependent with item level. |
| 10:07.14 | Wobin | at 3:00pm Steam Ship Antiarc leaves port from Anchorage Alaska, heading towards the North Pole at 35 nautical knots. |
| 10:07.27 | ZorbaBeta | But that's *assuming equivalent breakdowns*, with the same number of stats with roughly the same ratios. |
| 10:07.35 | Fisker | Wobin |
| 10:07.37 | Fisker | calm the fuck down |
| 10:07.46 | Wobin | at 4:00pm Steam Ship ZorbaBeta leaves port at Sydney Australia, heading to the South Pole at 60 nautical knots |
| 10:08.06 | Wobin | (neither of which pass each other in the night =P) |
| 10:08.14 | Antiarc | Man, Blizzard screwed up this argument by making all the heroic versions of gear that doesn't have gem slots have gem slots on the heroic versions >:| |
| 10:08.22 | Wobin | Fisker, stfu |
| 10:08.29 | Fisker | :( |
| 10:08.37 | Antiarc | Trinkets are the exception, but trinkets are weird-ass anomolies when it comes to budgeting. |
| 10:09.00 | Fisker | why so mean Wobin ? |
| 10:09.37 | Wobin | Fisker, calm the fuck down |
| 10:10.36 | ZorbaBeta | nice, I crashed openoffice |
| 10:11.13 | Fisker | :( |
| 10:13.49 | ZorbaBeta | my word, it's amazing how none of the 258 items are actually normal items |
| 10:13.55 | Antiarc | I know :( |
| 10:13.58 | Antiarc | Cursed gem slots. |
| 10:14.08 | ZorbaBeta | it's all trinkets and spellpower wands/offhands |
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| 10:14.25 | ZorbaBeta | and none of the 245 items either :P |
| 10:14.30 | Antiarc | Yeah. |
| 10:14.33 | Antiarc | I see what you're meaning about a linear increase across the entire item budget, but my point is about stat consolidation less so than item level increases. |
| 10:14.58 | Antiarc | By changing their itemization strategy, I think it lets them effectively dampen how effective an item is for its ilevel. |
| 10:15.13 | ZorbaBeta | But as I said, stat consolidation is just not the important part. Yes, we'll lose a ton of raw stats by going to Cataclysm |
| 10:15.42 | ZorbaBeta | but I think that's irrelevant. If the item budget goes up by 5%, then on average, all the stats go up by 5% |
| 10:15.59 | Antiarc | But that 5% gets smaller and smaller with each tier. |
| 10:16.10 | ZorbaBeta | No, it gets larger! |
| 10:16.19 | Antiarc | err. you're right, durr. |
| 10:16.23 | Antiarc | Goodness, it's late. |
| 10:16.35 | ZorbaBeta | haha, yeah, it is. I think that's why it took me so long to be sure ;) |
| 10:16.35 | Antiarc | I was thinking downwards from 258 -> 245 -> 232 :P |
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| 10:17.06 | Antiarc | The relative (tier to tier) power gains remain constant, but I think the absolute gains are going to be a bit less pronounced. |
| 10:17.28 | Antiarc | I get a lot more out of an item with 100 AGI and 200 AP then I do out of an item with 200 AGI. |
| 10:17.38 | Antiarc | Though both items cost the same. |
| 10:18.16 | Antiarc | Or, actually, no, wait, I wouldn't get 200 AGI :P |
| 10:18.29 | Antiarc | I'd get...150 AGI. |
| 10:19.39 | Antiarc | 150 AGI vs 100 AGI and 200 AP, I'll take the latter anyday; by getting rid of the extra stats (AP), I get 150 AGI on my item, and far less offensive power for the same cost as opposed to if it were itemized across more (useful) stats. |
| 10:20.23 | ZorbaBeta | Yeah, but that's still not the question. You're doing it again! :) |
| 10:20.29 | Antiarc | Doing what? |
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| 10:20.40 | ZorbaBeta | The question isn't whether consolidated stats are more or less powerful. They're dramatically less powerful. |
| 10:21.09 | Antiarc | That's more or less the entire point I've been trying to make, probably poorly. :P |
| 10:21.26 | ZorbaBeta | The question is whether 5% stat budget on an item with one stat is a bigger or smaller relative boost than 5% stat budget on an item with five stats |
| 10:21.31 | Antiarc | Cataclysm = fewer stats = worse item budgeting = slower power curve acceleration even with constant item level growth |
| 10:21.40 | Wobin | This tends to be the source of a lot of discussions here =P |
| 10:22.12 | Wobin | lack of clarification of the precise topic of discourse =P |
| 10:22.14 | ZorbaBeta | no, that is exactly what I am saying won't happen. I'm saying that 5% is 5% is 5% |
| 10:22.41 | Antiarc | @_@ |
| 10:22.52 | ZorbaBeta | If you do 1000 DPS, and you want to do 1050 DPS, you go replace all your gear with 5 ilvl higher. Assuming linear gains result in linear returns. |
| 10:23.04 | Antiarc | That's a hell of an assumption. |
| 10:23.17 | ZorbaBeta | It is, but that question has nothing to do with item budgeting and everything to do with class design. |
| 10:23.17 | Antiarc | I do 4x the damage that I did in 3.0 on Brutallus. |
| 10:23.25 | Antiarc | My item level has approximately doubled. |
| 10:23.37 | Antiarc | Rough numbers, obviously. |
| 10:23.39 | ZorbaBeta | Right. Which is why I think the point of confusion was that you were trying to point that at the item level formula. |
| 10:23.50 | ZorbaBeta | Which is entirely unrelated. |
| 10:24.32 | ZorbaBeta | I'm going to guess that the reason that happens is because, for some classes and some specs, various stats are multiplicative in quality |
| 10:24.50 | Antiarc | My point is that consolidating stats makes gear less relatively powerful. Assuming that 5% gain in ilevel means 5% gain in DPS assumes perfect distribution of item budget, which I'm saying is what Blizzard is entirely changing. They're intentionally moving to an imperfect item budget distribution. |
| 10:25.57 | Antiarc | By moving to a suboptimal budgeting strategy, they weaken the gear for any given ilevel. Relative gains remain the same for items with the same budgeting strategy. |
| 10:26.16 | ZorbaBeta | and I'm saying it has very little to do with item budget. Yes, you can cripple gear by making the distribution bad. But that doesn't mean anything. If all gear is "equally crippled", then again, you've got 5% gain in ilvl --> 5% gain in stats --> (some constant number lower than 5)% gain in "optimal stats") --> 5% gain in effectiveness |
| 10:26.23 | ZorbaBeta | er |
| 10:26.28 | Antiarc | ilevel 300s budgeted under the Wrath strategy would be significantly more powerful than ilevel 300s budgeted under the Cataclysm strategy. |
| 10:26.29 | ZorbaBeta | (some constant number etc)% gain |
| 10:26.49 | ZorbaBeta | What I'm saying is that crippling everything equally doesn't change anything either |
| 10:27.42 | Antiarc | Right. But they're lowering how much that 5% is. That's all my point is. |
| 10:27.44 | ZorbaBeta | Alright. Would you agree that with a 5% gain in item level, *all other things being equalled*, that you are getting approximately a 5% increase in stats? |
| 10:28.00 | ZorbaBeta | no, they're lowering what the base value that 5% is then multiplied to is |
| 10:28.07 | ZorbaBeta | the result is still 5% of it, whatever "it" was |
| 10:28.11 | Antiarc | ZorbaBeta: Hesitantly. Empirical observations don't support that, but the math does. |
| 10:28.41 | Antiarc | Vancleef's should, in theory, support that theory if it were correct, since gem slots are known to be a static cost and the only thing that changes between versions is the stat amounts. |
| 10:28.57 | Antiarc | So there's a disconnect somewhere. |
| 10:29.10 | Antiarc | ZorbaBeta: Right. Lowering the base value. Dampening the curve. :P |
| 10:29.24 | Antiarc | Curve goes "whee!" rather than "ZOMGWHEEEEEE!" |
| 10:29.42 | nevcairiel | lol |
| 10:30.00 | Antiarc | (absolute numbers curve, not relative power gain curve) |
| 10:30.16 | *** join/#wowuidev Spellshaper (n=Spellsha@84.57.247.30) |
| 10:30.18 | ZorbaBeta | wait wait, you just claimed that the absolute numbers curve is the important one? |
| 10:30.43 | Antiarc | The absolute numbers are what change between itemization strategies. |
| 10:30.57 | Wobin | =( |
| 10:31.00 | Wobin | likes ZOMGWHEE |
| 10:31.02 | ZorbaBeta | No, that is still not what we're talking about :P |
| 10:31.10 | ZorbaBeta | You're saying that the numbers will be smaller in Cataclysm. |
| 10:31.29 | ZorbaBeta | I know. They will be (unless they make a hilarious jump in ilvl or completely rebalance constants, I suppose) |
| 10:31.30 | Antiarc | No, they'll be bigger, because level 85 gear will be higher ilevel than level 80 gear, of course. |
| 10:31.45 | ZorbaBeta | they'll be bigger in cataclysm than they are in wrath right now? |
| 10:31.51 | Antiarc | However, assume that Cataclysm stays at level 80, and that our first tier of raiding gear from Cataclysm is the Icecrown ilevel. |
| 10:32.00 | Antiarc | The Cataclysm gear would be weaker. |
| 10:32.12 | ZorbaBeta | The *current*-Cataclysm gear, or the post-4.0-cataclysm gear? |
| 10:32.24 | ZorbaBeta | Because the two bear little to no resemblance :P |
| 10:32.24 | Antiarc | ....what? |
| 10:32.28 | Fisker | yarrs |
| 10:32.49 | ZorbaBeta | Look, they're taking out Defense and Spellpower. They're going to be recalculating the entire game from Classic on up. |
| 10:32.57 | Wobin | had to read that twice to realise ZorbaBeta wasn't talking about two bears |
| 10:33.00 | ZorbaBeta | Every single equippable item is going to be looked at for change. |
| 10:33.04 | Antiarc | Okay. Here's the point. Say Icecrown is 300 for the purpose of simplicity. Say Cataclysm raid 1 is 330, a 10% gain. |
| 10:33.05 | ZorbaBeta | mmm two bears |
| 10:33.13 | ZorbaBeta | Okay. |
| 10:33.19 | Antiarc | Icecrown -> Cataclysm Tier 1 will not be a 10% power increase, because the itemization strategy changes. |
| 10:33.26 | Antiarc | It might be a 4% increase or whatever. |
| 10:33.35 | Antiarc | Now, then you move from 330 -> 363, another 10% increase. |
| 10:33.44 | Antiarc | You will see a 10% increase on THAT because the itemization strategy is constant. |
| 10:33.45 | ZorbaBeta | Okay. What about Cataclysm Tier 1 to Cataclysm Tier 2? |
| 10:33.59 | ZorbaBeta | Well that's true. But it doesn't do a thing to combat long-term inflation in Cataclysm. |
| 10:34.15 | Antiarc | "inflation" is a really rather silly term to apply for damage. |
| 10:34.16 | ZorbaBeta | All you're saying there is "gear is going to slightly step down for a tiny period of time", and that's less than happened in Outland. |
| 10:34.26 | Antiarc | What matters is HP:Damage:Healing ratios. |
| 10:34.56 | Antiarc | The base is going to take a step down, and that step down is going to cascade through any other upgrades on the same itemization strategy. |
| 10:35.44 | Antiarc | Cataclysm might be something like 100% -> 104% -> 114.4% -> 125.84% |
| 10:35.53 | ZorbaBeta | But why does that matter in the least? All you're saying is "numbers are going to get smaller for a single tier". It will still be the same game, and it'll still inflate at the same time, minus that tiny hiccup in Cataclysm |
| 10:36.12 | Antiarc | Whereas if we kept Wrath itemization strategies, it'd be 100% -> 110% -> 121% -> 133.1% |
| 10:36.29 | Antiarc | Four tiers in, we're 8% weaker than we would have been otherwise. |
| 10:37.01 | ZorbaBeta | 5.769%. Do "133.1 / 125.84". |
| 10:37.21 | ZorbaBeta | And then do "121 / 114.4". |
| 10:37.35 | ZorbaBeta | And then try "110 / 104". |
| 10:38.13 | ZorbaBeta | Observe that ever since the hypothetical Cataclysm1 tier, it's exactly 5.679% weaker than it would be otherwise. A single shift - not a long-term one. |
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| 10:39.33 | Antiarc | That 5.697% means more in absolute damage as those percents grow. |
| 10:39.45 | ZorbaBeta | Yeah, but the absolute damage is still not in question |
| 10:39.52 | Antiarc | Why not? |
| 10:40.09 | Antiarc | Dampening the curve by 5.7% is still a dampened curve, which was my point to begin with. |
| 10:40.18 | ZorbaBeta | Because you're not changing the curve of the line. You're merely changing the offset. |
| 10:40.30 | ZorbaBeta | Do you think that just dividing every number by 10 would flatten the damage acceleration curve? |
| 10:40.35 | ZorbaBeta | Like, just the damage outputs |
| 10:40.43 | ZorbaBeta | If you did 4888 damage before, now you do 488.8 |
| 10:41.08 | ZorbaBeta | All the internal stats and calculations are the same, it's just like everything does 1/10th the damage or healing and everyone has 1/10th the hit points. |
| 10:43.05 | ZorbaBeta | Because that's what you're describing here. "cataclysm will be just like northrend, only instead of doing 4888 damage per hit, I do 4545! Of course in going from ilvl400 ilvl508 I still increased my damage by the same multiple that I did in Northrend from 200 to 254." |
| 10:43.14 | Antiarc | The intial complaint was that people were going to be doing 20k damage by the end of Wrath, right? |
| 10:43.43 | Antiarc | Err, cataclysm, whatever |
| 10:43.46 | Antiarc | Sure, it'll inflate |
| 10:43.49 | ZorbaBeta | I did mention it. Of course, that assumes Northrend numbers will remain the same post-4.0 as they are now in 3.3. |
| 10:43.52 | Antiarc | An MMO can't lower the damage people do as they level. |
| 10:44.03 | Antiarc | People like the psychological impact of doing bigger numbers. |
| 10:44.22 | ZorbaBeta | True. It'd be a bad idea. So, then, yes, people are going to be doing 20k damage by the end of Wrath. |
| 10:44.59 | Antiarc | But, Cataclysm looks like it's just going to provide smaller absolute growth than Wrath did. Sure, it's going to be the same game it ever was, where damage/healing/HP ratios remain balanced so that the game is playable. |
| 10:45.18 | ZorbaBeta | Yes, I can believe that. But that means itemlevels will increase by a smaller percentage. |
| 10:45.40 | Antiarc | I'll be back in a bit - kid woke up and has a fever |
| 10:45.46 | Antiarc | Teething sucks. |
| 10:45.53 | ZorbaBeta | aight, hope he feels better soon :) |
| 10:46.37 | *** join/#wowuidev Legorol (n=legorol@82-41-49-132.cable.ubr07.sgyl.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 10:46.37 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+v Legorol] by ChanServ |
| 10:47.28 | Antiarc | He's being remarkably well-behaved for running a temp! |
| 10:47.49 | ZorbaBeta | Someday I will have the joy of these experiences |
| 10:48.11 | Antiarc | Anyhow. All that'll happen is that in Cataclysm, my New Awesome Gear of the Whale will give me only +80 DPS rather than +100 DPS, but bosses are only getting +8000 HP for that tier rather than +10000 HP, and healers are only getting +160 healing rather than +200 healing. |
| 10:48.30 | Antiarc | So it's all the same game, but Blizzard gets to put off switching in 64-bit ints for damage numbers a little bit longer. :P |
| 10:48.58 | ZorbaBeta | Now, wait, you're comparing apples and oranges |
| 10:49.05 | Antiarc | How so? |
| 10:49.56 | *** join/#wowuidev Kazie (n=Kazie@port207.ds1-vg.adsl.cybercity.dk) |
| 10:50.00 | ZorbaBeta | Okay, lemme explain a semi-hypothetical situation real fast |
| 10:50.22 | ZorbaBeta | Let's assume that, when Cataclysm is released, its entry-level gear happens to start at 245 and the next batch of gear you get happens to be 254. |
| 10:50.37 | ZorbaBeta | Now, this Cataclysm gear is going to be a lot worse than the existing raid gear right now. |
| 10:50.50 | Antiarc | Right. |
| 10:50.50 | ZorbaBeta | That, I am not arguing. |
| 10:51.54 | ZorbaBeta | However, let's imagine we have a hypothetical raider sitting around today who just managed to change out all his 245 gear for 254 gear. Let's say he goes "hooray I am awesome" and checks his DPS. It's gone from, oh, 10000 to 12000 DPS. (He's really really good DPS.) |
| 10:52.12 | ZorbaBeta | (i don't know, maybe it's patchwerk-25 or something) |
| 10:53.07 | ZorbaBeta | Now let's check out someone a year from now who's bashing his way through Cataclysm. He goes from 245 to 254. Cataclysm gear is pretty crummy, so despite that many item levels, even the 245 was barely an upgrade from his old ilvl187 greens from Northrend |
| 10:53.35 | ZorbaBeta | But in Wrath 245 he was doing 1000 DPS, and so in Cataclysm 245 he's going to end up doing 1200. |
| 10:53.45 | ZorbaBeta | er, Cataclysm 254 |
| 10:53.50 | Antiarc | I was gonna say :P |
| 10:53.53 | ZorbaBeta | (stupid dyslexic numbers :P) |
| 10:54.13 | ZorbaBeta | So anyway, my point is, within a gear tier, his damage increases by 20%. |
| 10:54.40 | ZorbaBeta | As long as you keep the itemization scheme constant, in this example, 245->254 gives the same 20% damage bonus. |
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| 10:55.15 | ZorbaBeta | An absolutely-smaller 20% in the case of the crappy gear. But still 20%. |
| 10:55.45 | zenzelezz | "Wine has advanced enough to make Linux not immune to Windows viruses. However, just like many Wine applications, it takes a bit of effort to get the program off the ground. Also, just like some Windows programs running via Wine, not all features may work in this case, the crippling of the system, immunity to the task manager, identity theft, etc." o_O |
| 10:55.47 | ZorbaBeta | Would that be agreed? |
| 10:55.50 | Antiarc | Yup. |
| 10:56.31 | Antiarc | I don't think that this is going to change the relative power of (same strategy) tiers at all |
| 10:56.59 | Antiarc | It just changes the raw numbers a bit. Slows it down so it'll take 3 tiers before we have people whining about 26k chaos bolts on the DD forums, rather than 2. :P |
| 10:57.46 | Antiarc | I'm gonna have to afk and get the kid back to sleep. He's fussy. |
| 10:57.54 | Antiarc | back in...well. Hopefully soon. Probably not soon. :P |
| 10:57.55 | ZorbaBeta | alright, lemme know when you're back |
| 10:58.08 | ZorbaBeta | no rush, I'll get some work done ;) |
| 10:59.50 | Fisker | why don't we have a hide tabard feature yet? :( |
| 11:00.40 | ZorbaBeta | because in most cases, tabards are still very optional. I think they just haven't cared much |
| 11:01.43 | Fisker | the time for hiding tabards is now! |
| 11:01.48 | Fisker | storms the PTR |
| 11:02.17 | nevcairiel | because you can just not wear a tabard without any consequences for your stats |
| 11:02.24 | nevcairiel | you can't just drop your cloak |
| 11:03.05 | Fisker | you can't just drop your tabard either |
| 11:03.05 | ZorbaBeta | nev, unless you're trying to get NR dungeon rep ;) |
| 11:03.37 | nevcairiel | isn't that the point then, a VISIBLE tabard, so the enemys see for which faction you fight! |
| 11:03.52 | Fisker | the enemies don't have eyes |
| 11:04.03 | Fisker | besides faction rep isn't the only stat on tabards |
| 11:04.04 | ZorbaBeta | yeah, honestly, I'm pretty much just cleaning the place out |
| 11:04.11 | ZorbaBeta | there's nobody in there left to see, I killed 'em all |
| 11:04.47 | ZorbaBeta | there's also, what, teleport to argent crusade? |
| 11:04.54 | Fisker | ^^ |
| 11:05.14 | nevcairiel | I still have that tabard from BC launch event that makes you flex or something |
| 11:05.15 | ZorbaBeta | same thing engineers used to have to do with teleport trinkets ;) |
| 11:09.35 | Fisker | slaps TC-Away around a bit with a large trout |
| 11:10.33 | ZorbaBeta | Hmm, down to a 2mb size boost. |
| 11:20.00 | Antiarc | Back...for now. |
| 11:20.37 | Antiarc | Anyhow, while I was away, I think I identified part of the disparity: |
| 11:21.01 | Antiarc | We're talking about linear increases under ideal conditions (perfect stat distribution for a given strategy), and I kept using the word "curve" |
| 11:21.36 | Antiarc | In a system of linear increases, either the rate of change changes (it won't), or you just reduce the offset, as you said - that's more or less been my argument, as well. |
| 11:21.40 | Antiarc | I was using poor phrasing. |
| 11:22.15 | Antiarc | Stat consolidation = lower offset, relative progression (rate of change) remains about the same, numbers are lower than they would be if Wrath just went to level 85. |
| 11:22.46 | Antiarc | Sleight dampening from where we are now, people still get more powerful at approximately the same speed they are used to. |
| 11:24.54 | ZorbaBeta | Ah, I was going to ask about that :) |
| 11:25.18 | ZorbaBeta | But there's one big point of confusion I have, which is that the "cataclysm starting ilvl" is choosable by Blizzard |
| 11:25.29 | krka | omg still going on about this? |
| 11:25.33 | Antiarc | apparently! :) |
| 11:25.47 | krka | what an utterly boring discussion :/ |
| 11:25.58 | Antiarc | It really is, but it's 4:30 AM and I have a teething baby who won't sleep. |
| 11:26.02 | Antiarc | I don't have much better to do. :P |
| 11:26.13 | krka | teething babies ftl |
| 11:26.14 | ZorbaBeta | it's not like they're required to start at the exact end of raid progression - if they decide to make CataclysmRaid1 exactly equivalent in effective end power to IC, they can do that, no matter what the end ilvl of that ends up being |
| 11:26.15 | krka | how old? |
| 11:26.25 | Antiarc | Just turned 1. |
| 11:26.33 | krka | how many teeths done? |
| 11:26.42 | Antiarc | He's got 4 done, working on 6 more (!) |
| 11:26.44 | ZorbaBeta | essentially I feel like you're assuming the cataclysm start ilvl is a constant, when reality it's variable based on Blizzard's desires and whatever calculations are necessary |
| 11:26.50 | Antiarc | 4 canines and 2 molars coming in. |
| 11:26.52 | theorbtwo | Is he weaned? |
| 11:26.55 | Antiarc | Yeah. |
| 11:27.03 | theorbtwo | Whew. |
| 11:27.15 | krka | oh nice, six more |
| 11:27.25 | krka | my girl has four done now, not sure how many in progress |
| 11:27.36 | krka | weaned? |
| 11:28.28 | Grum | ZorbaBeta: TBC greenies were better than Vanilla epics, WotlK lvl80 heroics were better than some sunwell items (only reason you'd keep em is for the setbonus or stat spreading) |
| 11:28.29 | Antiarc | ZorbaBeta: Absolutely, but if they didn't, they'd either have to a) keep the ilevel the same (boring!), b) have CR1 be more powerful than Icecrown (too soon, Executus!) or c) drastically re-adjust damage/hp/healing numbers across the board (General Forums: OMGGGGG SKY IS FALLINGZ) |
| 11:28.30 | theorbtwo | krka: No longer breast feading. |
| 11:28.36 | krka | ah i see |
| 11:28.45 | Grum | i doubt they will make raid1 of cataclysm equal to IC |
| 11:28.49 | Grum | should be way better |
| 11:29.00 | Antiarc | It should, because it's 5 levels and a tier higher. |
| 11:29.10 | Antiarc | We're equating them for the purposes of simplifying the discussion |
| 11:29.11 | ZorbaBeta | grum, oh yes, better than sunwell, no argument. I can see them doing the same thing here |
| 11:29.17 | Antiarc | Where they actually end up is fairly irrelevant |
| 11:29.21 | ZorbaBeta | antiarc, well, they *did* have overlapping item levels in Wrath from BC |
| 11:29.27 | Grum | lvl85 heroics should give equal gear to ilvl ~270 orso |
| 11:29.28 | nevcairiel | I would hope that the first raid-tier in cataclysm tops the last tier of WotLK |
| 11:29.34 | Antiarc | ZorbaBeta: Not between raid tiers though, did they? |
| 11:29.40 | nevcairiel | entry-raiding would be so boring |
| 11:30.20 | Antiarc | I forget what sunwell gear is at. |
| 11:30.20 | nevcairiel | 150 something |
| 11:30.20 | Antiarc | Sunwell was 159. |
| 11:30.20 | Antiarc | Naxx was 200. |
| 11:30.20 | Antiarc | Naxx 10, at least. |
| 11:30.20 | Grum | yeah but we had a stat-change as well |
| 11:30.20 | Antiarc | Did we? |
| 11:30.20 | Grum | we're getting that for cataclysm as well |
| 11:30.29 | nevcairiel | 3.0 revamped the stat system a bit |
| 11:30.31 | Grum | when did spellpower/healing etc get 'mixed' ? |
| 11:30.34 | nevcairiel | healing/damage --> spellpower |
| 11:30.36 | Grum | err combined |
| 11:30.37 | Antiarc | BC -> Wrath was pretty constant, except one of the itemizers developed a massive raging boner for armor pen and expertise. |
| 11:30.37 | Grum | aye |
| 11:30.49 | Grum | they wanted more intresting stats |
| 11:30.53 | Antiarc | healing/damage -> spellpower happened in T5/T6 content, I'm pretty sure |
| 11:30.55 | nevcairiel | but the spellpower change didnt really change the items much |
| 11:30.56 | Grum | but instead of fixing what they had they did it the wrong way around :) |
| 11:31.07 | Grum | nevcairiel: they did that before 3.0.1 right? |
| 11:31.13 | nevcairiel | might've been |
| 11:31.14 | Antiarc | Long before. |
| 11:31.16 | Antiarc | Long long before. |
| 11:31.19 | nevcairiel | might've been the sunwell patch |
| 11:31.21 | Grum | hmmm 2.4.x ? |
| 11:31.23 | Antiarc | I remember healers rejoicing about Leotheras |
| 11:31.28 | Antiarc | Because they could kill inner demons, finally. |
| 11:31.29 | Grum | oh yes |
| 11:31.31 | Grum | indeed! |
| 11:31.36 | Grum | so it was 2.3.something |
| 11:31.40 | Grum | (i also was a healer lol )D |
| 11:31.42 | nevcairiel | We were long done with leotheras when that happend |
| 11:31.57 | nevcairiel | so at least t6 content |
| 11:31.58 | Grum | i remember we just got past him |
| 11:32.00 | nevcairiel | i still think sunwell patch |
| 11:32.03 | nevcairiel | looks it up |
| 11:32.04 | Antiarc | :O |
| 11:32.04 | Antiarc | http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs257.snc1/10427_1229520427005_1498934023_607590_333473_n.jpg |
| 11:32.33 | Grum | i think it was the patch where they removed attunement requirements for T6 |
| 11:32.43 | Grum | that was the one before sunwel |
| 11:32.44 | krka | i think there should be only one stat, would make choosing gear much easier |
| 11:32.54 | Antiarc | AWESOMENESS |
| 11:33.02 | Antiarc | That's kind of the direction they're headed in with Cataclysm, heh |
| 11:33.11 | Grum | hmmm no they are not |
| 11:33.16 | Antiarc | The meta-stat that makes you better at arbitrary things depending on what you're specced for |
| 11:33.23 | Grum | they are just making all the 'main stats' actually do something for your char |
| 11:33.25 | Antiarc | Yeah, they are. Lemme find it. |
| 11:33.25 | *** join/#wowuidev bluspacecow (n=bluspace@60-234-165-167.bitstream.orcon.net.nz) |
| 11:33.31 | ZorbaBeta | they're adding Mastery |
| 11:33.36 | Antiarc | Mastery, that's it. |
| 11:33.49 | Grum | yeah they are adding certain 'base stats' you get for 'spending points in a certain talent tree' |
| 11:33.54 | nevcairiel | in 2.3 they added the damage bonus through healing |
| 11:33.58 | nevcairiel | the total conversion was only 3.0 |
| 11:33.59 | nevcairiel | afaik |
| 11:34.00 | ZorbaBeta | I'm really looking forward to Cataclysm. I am so tired of defense |
| 11:34.05 | ZorbaBeta | tanking will just be solid :3 |
| 11:34.15 | Antiarc | At Blizzcon they were also showing gear with Mastery on it. |
| 11:34.15 | Grum | nevcairiel: yeah and 2.4 did sunwell |
| 11:34.20 | ZorbaBeta | flowers will run free. fawns will bloom gorgeously. |
| 11:34.25 | Grum | Antiarc: really? mmmm |
| 11:34.26 | Antiarc | My impression was that it was supposed to replace expertise, armor pen, etc etc. |
| 11:34.29 | Antiarc | Yes. |
| 11:34.35 | ZorbaBeta | yeah, that'd make sense |
| 11:34.37 | Antiarc | What it does changes depending on what you're specced into. |
| 11:34.41 | ZorbaBeta | hmm |
| 11:34.44 | Grum | that is quite nice tbh |
| 11:34.50 | bluspacecow | \o |
| 11:34.55 | Grum | at least the amount of gems will go down again |
| 11:34.58 | Grum | *finally* :p |
| 11:34.59 | ZorbaBeta | now if they can make holy pallies heal with strength, then we can finally lose all the plate variations |
| 11:35.04 | Antiarc | So yes, you do, in a sense, just get one I'M AWESOME stat to stack. |
| 11:35.12 | Antiarc | That's hyperbole, of course, but you get the picture :P |
| 11:35.14 | Grum | ZorbaBeta: that is a good point |
| 11:35.20 | Grum | i hate the 'niche' gear |
| 11:35.29 | ZorbaBeta | I'm going to be really pissed if we end up with tank/dps plate and spellplate :D |
| 11:35.39 | Antiarc | Holy paladins healing with strength scares me, because then holy paladins would be very, very scary offensively |
| 11:35.40 | nevcairiel | Grum: yeah but the complet conversion to spellpower was only 3.0 |
| 11:35.45 | Antiarc | While still being able to heal like gods. |
| 11:35.47 | Grum | nevcairiel: yeah |
| 11:35.58 | Antiarc | (I have a holy/prot paladin) |
| 11:36.07 | Grum | Antiarc: no, because through a mastery you could make the protadin heal for 20% |
| 11:36.32 | Grum | so that would crush that ability |
| 11:36.38 | Antiarc | Grum: If you made holy paladins stack strength to heal, that strength would let them whack things hard. |
| 11:36.42 | Antiarc | not as hard as a ret paladin, of course |
| 11:37.00 | Grum | Antiarc: do you give a 'physical dps' penalty on the healadin |
| 11:37.08 | Antiarc | But I could go over and whack things unless they put a critical "this makes you viable for doing any damage" talent in deep ret. |
| 11:37.20 | ZorbaBeta | grum, well, yeah, they don't have as much crit and ap and str |
| 11:37.22 | Antiarc | Grum: That's the question. Blizzard hates penalties like that. |
| 11:37.27 | Grum | aye, that is easily solvable |
| 11:37.32 | Antiarc | They don't want people feeling like taking a talent gimps them. |
| 11:37.34 | Grum | well you just gave a 'non penalty' way of solving it |
| 11:37.40 | amro | weird problem: I get max 200b/s on nonlocal connections from linux but not from windows |
| 11:37.44 | Antiarc | They won't hit as hard as a ret, sure |
| 11:37.50 | ZorbaBeta | yeah, I think Warrior has two of the few minus talents |
| 11:38.01 | Antiarc | But if I'm stacking strength rather than spellpower, we're right back to the pre-3.2 prot/holy days. |
| 11:38.14 | Grum | sure |
| 11:38.29 | Grum | but what if you need a 45pt talent in holy to increase your healing with 400% ? |
| 11:38.32 | Antiarc | I stacked the bajeebers out of stamina on my prot/holy paladin and ran around healing with 34k HP and 2600 spellpower, with a 92% crit rate on flash of light. |
| 11:38.34 | amro | anyone ever experience something like that? local connections through the same device are fine |
| 11:38.51 | Antiarc | I didn't gem or enchant anything except stamina. |
| 11:38.51 | ZorbaBeta | grum, then dungeon healing is impractical below lv55 :P |
| 11:38.55 | Antiarc | I had full stamina trinkets. |
| 11:39.01 | Grum | ZorbaBeta: meh! true ;D |
| 11:39.10 | Antiarc | I just slabbed stamina into myself like the world was ending, and it made me a god :P |
| 11:39.28 | Grum | Antiarc: then get a full set of furious and you run with ~40k buffed orso? |
| 11:39.37 | bluspacecow | amro : i has a single computer network so neva :( |
| 11:39.38 | Antiarc | Grum: That was with full furious |
| 11:39.46 | Grum | only 34k hp? that is not a lot |
| 11:39.54 | Antiarc | I had the furious healing gear |
| 11:39.59 | Antiarc | There isn't prot PVP gear |
| 11:40.13 | Antiarc | It's not as biased towards stamina as tanking gear is |
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| 11:46.09 | Grum | Antiarc: on my priest i could get to ~38k unbuffed if i were to gem/enchant everything with stamina |
| 11:46.26 | Antiarc | huh. nice. |
| 11:47.05 | Grum | at least, if wowequip is not lying (which i doubt it is, because i actually got +1400 stamina from gemming/enchanting/swapping trinkets) |
| 11:47.58 | Grum | and without that i am on 1743 sta for 24000hp |
| 11:48.28 | Grum | so buffed that would be ~46-47k orso |
| 11:48.41 | Antiarc | There's no way that's right. |
| 11:48.43 | Grum | more if i dont assume a 5v5 team :) |
| 11:48.59 | Grum | why not? :( |
| 11:49.13 | Antiarc | Because that's raid tank HP. |
| 11:49.20 | Antiarc | With tankin gear. |
| 11:49.21 | Pneumatus | er, no its not |
| 11:49.29 | Grum | no raid tank hp is ~54k orso |
| 11:49.37 | Pneumatus | raid tanks are hitting 60k+ |
| 11:49.42 | Grum | depending on the encounter ofc |
| 11:49.49 | Antiarc | Man, I must be out of the loop! |
| 11:49.51 | Grum | Pneumatus: with last stand orso, not by default |
| 11:50.07 | Pneumatus | Grum: we've got a bear that can hit nearly 90k with cooldowns |
| 11:50.22 | Grum | normal raid-tanks (who did ulduar etc) would be around ~50k if they sortof stack stamina |
| 11:50.41 | Grum | Antiarc: i get 340 from my 2 trinkets alone (and those arent 'best in slot' for stamina) |
| 11:50.58 | Grum | Pneumatus: yeah same with our bears |
| 11:51.18 | Antiarc | Grum: What trinkets? The tank ones from ToTGC? |
| 11:51.28 | Grum | nah, brewfest trinkets =D |
| 11:51.39 | Grum | 170 each and yeah you have totgc with >200 sta |
| 11:52.19 | Antiarc | For some reason I was thinking they were +117 |
| 11:52.40 | Grum | 216+192 you can get from totgc |
| 11:53.10 | Antiarc | I was using the JC stam trinkets, which are 112 or so apiece |
| 11:53.18 | Grum | aye |
| 11:53.25 | Antiarc | Since this was pre-ToC/Brewfest |
| 11:53.47 | Grum | 123+122 sta from JC trinkeys indeed |
| 11:54.57 | ZorbaBeta | I'm a warrior tank at ~ilvl226 average, I end up with about 38k unbuffed, and probably over 50k buffed |
| 11:55.00 | Grum | its quite fun, shadowpriests can be insane soakers for damage :), you can spec -25% dmg from magic, you always have -15% dmg from anything |
| 11:55.39 | Grum | and easily get 35-40k hp raidbuffed |
| 11:56.15 | Antiarc | So jealous. My rogue gets to ~28k on a good day. |
| 11:56.27 | Grum | ZorbaBeta: yeah that seems about right, i have one around 213 which has ~34k hp unbuffed and around 40-43k buffed orso |
| 11:56.43 | Grum | Antiarc: raidingwise my spriest doesnt get above 26k |
| 11:56.48 | Grum | same for all mages |
| 11:56.54 | Grum | 24k seems to be their cap =D |
| 11:57.19 | Dezzimal | I think you mean effective health? |
| 11:57.42 | Grum | my effective hp is 15% higher |
| 11:57.42 | krka | my druid has never had more than 18k :/ |
| 11:57.46 | krka | (in bear form) |
| 11:58.05 | Grum | and if i shield myself (depending on procs) another 5-7k |
| 11:58.46 | Grum | oh and ofc with dispersion and all that, you need about 400k to kill me :) |
| 11:59.03 | nevcairiel | you just wait dispersion out |
| 11:59.05 | Grum | i always end up tanking bigbangs @ algalon ;( |
| 12:00.46 | Grum | i wonder what kind of sta we're getting pulled towards in cata |
| 12:01.09 | Grum | from what i guess is that everyone will be at 50k and the tanks at ~80-120 |
| 12:01.32 | Grum | but those numbers seem to be growing kinda stupidly :D |
| 12:01.43 | nevcairiel | they should just cut all stats in pieces |
| 12:02.05 | Wobin | hehe |
| 12:02.10 | zenzelezz | it wasn't really too bad until BC |
| 12:02.20 | Wobin | we'll be looking forward to 100k healing crits instead of in tens =) |
| 12:02.30 | nevcairiel | because the best we had was like 13k hp before BC :P |
| 12:03.01 | zenzelezz | the problem with BC was just that you gained so much, so fast; just from quest items |
| 12:03.01 | Wobin | nevcairiel, just lop off three zeros from everything? =) |
| 12:03.20 | ZorbaBeta | then you have the poor newbies with 0.07 hit points |
| 12:03.22 | zenzelezz | level 1: -0.025 hp |
| 12:03.24 | nevcairiel | they changed the weight of stamina on BC items |
| 12:03.36 | Wobin | ZorbaBeta, They were going to die anyway =) |
| 12:03.38 | nevcairiel | thats why it grew so much |
| 12:03.49 | Pneumatus | best tanks had in vanilla was about 8k iirc :< |
| 12:04.00 | zenzelezz | no, a bit more |
| 12:04.04 | nevcairiel | Pneumatus: nah, in naxx on patchwerk we had 12k at least |
| 12:04.11 | zenzelezz | wasn't 8k about the highest Patchwerk hit? |
| 12:04.15 | Pneumatus | ah, never got that far |
| 12:04.27 | Pneumatus | we only got half way through AQ40 |
| 12:04.34 | Pneumatus | and like 2 bosses down in naxx |
| 12:04.46 | nevcairiel | ah, yeah the HP increased alot on the naxx tier items |
| 12:05.41 | Grum | we went from 13 -> ~28 -> 55k orso? and IC will prolly up it to 60-62k on tanks? |
| 12:06.34 | zenzelezz | my guild at the end of vanilla was struggling in Naxxramas. Cleared spider wing, took Noth and Razuvious, but only did Patchwerk once. Out strategy for getting past the blob room (small blobs) was undress, charge, hope the people with soulstone got far enough to resurrect the rest |
| 12:06.43 | ZorbaBeta | so, 'bout a factor of three each time? |
| 12:07.03 | ZorbaBeta | would imply that cataclysm will be 180k at the absolute high end |
| 12:07.06 | nevcairiel | lol zenzelezz |
| 12:07.09 | nevcairiel | thats pure fail |
| 12:07.15 | zenzelezz | we were a mediocre guild |
| 12:07.23 | Wobin | hehe |
| 12:07.31 | zenzelezz | some good players, many decent, too many freeloaders |
| 12:07.32 | Wobin | most of naxx was a struggle for a lot of guilds |
| 12:07.37 | Grum | nah i guess it does ->x2.5->x2->x1.5 |
| 12:07.49 | nevcairiel | ZorbaBeta: you can't use the vanilla -> bc increase as a comparison, since they changed the stamina weight, which didnt happen for wotlk |
| 12:07.56 | Grum | so ~80-90k at end of catacalysm |
| 12:07.56 | ZorbaBeta | hmm, yeah, it was less than that. failure at math |
| 12:07.57 | Grum | -a |
| 12:08.08 | ZorbaBeta | nev, true, though I'm surprised how big the difference is still |
| 12:08.16 | zenzelezz | yeah |
| 12:08.17 | ZorbaBeta | I'd bet 100k at the end of cataclysm, at least |
| 12:08.25 | Wobin | unless they change it again |
| 12:08.28 | ZorbaBeta | but not too much more above. <150k |
| 12:08.29 | Antiarc | 100k for top-end tanks wouldn't surprise me |
| 12:08.30 | ZorbaBeta | wobin, true |
| 12:08.44 | Wobin | I hope they do, before it gets too ridiculous =) |
| 12:08.55 | Antiarc | The ratios are kind of out of whack right now. |
| 12:08.57 | Grum | 100k without last-stand etc but with all +sta gemmed/enchanted? yeah that seems doable |
| 12:09.00 | Wobin | "my tank is OVER NINE THOUSAND!" |
| 12:09.08 | Grum | i hope they wont btw |
| 12:09.19 | zenzelezz | played health should be stored in a 16-bit unsigned value. Would make them have to watch their health more closely. "DON'T FORTITUDE ME, I'LL OVERFLOW" |
| 12:09.22 | zenzelezz | *player |
| 12:09.25 | Grum | lets look at the tiers we get each expansion |
| 12:09.28 | Wobin | Grum, that's cause you like -big- numbers |
| 12:09.34 | Antiarc | zenzelezz: Hahah, death by priest buff. |
| 12:09.43 | Grum | we got t1-3 the first, 4-6 the second and 7-10 the last |
| 12:10.03 | Wobin | Antiarc, hehe your head explodes into health potions =) |
| 12:10.13 | Grum | in wotlk we got 200-213-226-245-258-? |
| 12:10.20 | zenzelezz | vanilla had tier 2.5 too though |
| 12:10.29 | Antiarc | 213-219-226-232-245-258 |
| 12:10.55 | Grum | 219/239 is not really a tier |
| 12:10.55 | Grum | and yeah i forgot 232 :) |
| 12:11.19 | Antiarc | What's 239? |
| 12:11.22 | Grum | it was 200-213-226 for t7, 219-232-239 for t8, 232-245-258 for t9 |
| 12:11.26 | Grum | hardmode ulduar |
| 12:11.30 | Antiarc | Oh, right. |
| 12:11.54 | Grum | but, lots of 239 items are better itemized than 245 |
| 12:12.06 | Grum | (hence the reason any gearscore just doesnt work) |
| 12:12.42 | Antiarc | I'm in 245/258 stuff and wearing 200 and 213 trinkets. |
| 12:12.47 | Grum | its like how the 6-8/8 pieces from t6 were 'anything you *ever* wanted on 1 item' |
| 12:12.49 | Antiarc | lolz gearscore. |
| 12:12.50 | Pneumatus | as well as t8 set bonuses often being better than t9, so only a full set of 245 would bring an upgrade |
| 12:13.15 | Grum | i hope t10.25 will be like that |
| 12:13.25 | Grum | because t9 sofar is a complete utter joke |
| 12:13.34 | Grum | my t7 hat is better than mt t9 one O.o |
| 12:14.35 | Pneumatus | i've still got the kill malygos quest neck :< |
| 12:14.41 | Pneumatus | thats like my oldest item |
| 12:14.49 | Antiarc | Grim Toll. :( |
| 12:14.54 | Antiarc | Thorim's a dick. |
| 12:15.09 | Pneumatus | apart from that neck, i've got an ulduar trink and wand, and the rest 245/258 |
| 12:15.18 | Grum | Pneumatus: yeah i upgraded that one last week |
| 12:15.22 | Pneumatus | not putting a wand in 25man coliseum is retarded |
| 12:15.33 | Grum | neck+cloak+trinkets+wand are by far the worst to upgrade |
| 12:15.42 | Grum | aye, best wand is 10m heroic one O.o |
| 12:15.54 | Pneumatus | its the ONLY wand that drops in t9 |
| 12:16.04 | Pneumatus | alternative is a sucky hit one with badges |
| 12:16.17 | Grum | the +hit one from 10m Freya hard is also good |
| 12:16.24 | Grum | but gawd really? |
| 12:16.35 | Jerub | I was Grim Toll, but i doubt i'll ever get it.. |
| 12:16.40 | Pneumatus | the freya 10man hard one is only good because of the socket |
| 12:16.44 | Grum | i hate trinkets though i've got best possible (we cant kill anub hc yet) now |
| 12:16.47 | ZorbaBeta | there's no tanking weapon in 25-man ToC either :( |
| 12:16.52 | ZorbaBeta | I have no idea why they did that |
| 12:16.53 | Grum | lucky owner of a flare of heavens |
| 12:17.06 | ZorbaBeta | (alright, there's one in heroic in the end chest) |
| 12:17.11 | Pneumatus | talisman of resurgance and pandora's plea are BiS for me and i have them :P |
| 12:17.14 | Grum | ZorbaBeta: could simply be to lure tanks into 10m as well |
| 12:17.24 | ZorbaBeta | maybe, but it's irritating |
| 12:17.28 | Grum | got the anub 245 trinket and flare |
| 12:17.31 | ZorbaBeta | still, at least I was finally able to dump Last Laugh |
| 12:17.34 | Grum | only anub 258 is better now |
| 12:17.36 | ZorbaBeta | gettin' real tired of that skull |
| 12:18.01 | Pneumatus | i really need a yogg kill so i can finally get my valanyr :< |
| 12:18.13 | Grum | you already got the shards? :) |
| 12:18.38 | Pneumatus | yeh, will be our guild's 2nd but ive been collecting for like 4 months now |
| 12:18.43 | ZorbaBeta | my guild never got val'anyr, the GMs weren't interested enough in hard modes |
| 12:18.58 | Grum | you dont really need hardmodes for valanyr? just YS right? |
| 12:19.03 | Grum | +3 even |
| 12:19.07 | Antiarc | YS+3, not really hardmode |
| 12:19.17 | Pneumatus | hard modes have a worse chance of dropping shards in my experience as well |
| 12:19.20 | Antiarc | You can get Val'anyr without ever doing hardmode, but hardmode has higher drop rates on the shards |
| 12:19.26 | Grum | thorim is the best |
| 12:19.31 | Grum | erm hodir sorry |
| 12:19.37 | Grum | doing him hardmode gives a chance on both chest dropping 1 =D |
| 12:19.46 | Pneumatus | Antiarc: you have to do yogg+3 which is technically a hardmode :P |
| 12:19.50 | Grum | no |
| 12:19.52 | Antiarc | Ehhhhh. |
| 12:19.55 | Grum | YS+1 is hardmode |
| 12:19.56 | Antiarc | Yogg+3 isn't really hard at all. |
| 12:19.57 | ZorbaBeta | yeah, hardmode is a much higher drop rate of shards |
| 12:19.58 | Antiarc | ^ |
| 12:20.07 | Grum | YS+3 takes 30s longer to kill but you wont notice the difference |
| 12:20.23 | Antiarc | YS+3 is "suck slightly less on damage and don't stand in crap" |
| 12:20.25 | Grum | you have 10% less dmg and somewhat less runspeed |
| 12:21.02 | Antiarc | You actually have to have strat changes for YS+1 |
| 12:21.10 | Pneumatus | we didn't :o |
| 12:21.27 | Grum | ys+1 needs fucktons of dmg in the brainroom |
| 12:21.38 | Pneumatus | we have always stacked melee hard in the brainroom |
| 12:21.40 | Grum | so you cant afford to take more than 1 healer down there |
| 12:21.46 | Pneumatus | and only ever put 1 healer down |
| 12:21.47 | Grum | aye if you already did that, you are fine |
| 12:21.53 | Antiarc | We only ever put 1 in there anyhow |
| 12:22.06 | Pneumatus | discpriest in the brain room shielding everyone as they port in |
| 12:22.12 | Pneumatus | and bouncing a few heals around |
| 12:22.13 | Antiarc | disc + feral for LoTP = lots o' heals |
| 12:22.34 | Grum | yeah we did the same |
| 12:22.52 | Grum | discshields are sweet there |
| 12:23.12 | Grum | quite funny, you hardly see holy priests anymore :) |
| 12:23.16 | Pneumatus | yeh, a lot less worry about people bouncing in and out of LoS |
| 12:23.21 | Pneumatus | we still have 2 holy priests |
| 12:23.36 | Antiarc | The value of a disc priest significantly diminishes once you already have one in the raid :P |
| 12:24.00 | Grum | hmmm depends on the fight but yeah |
| 12:24.34 | Pneumatus | being disc on anub 25 heroic when people are insisting on needing body and soul shields makes me /shakefist |
| 12:24.42 | Pneumatus | conciously not shielding people is hard work |
| 12:24.42 | Antiarc | Well, discs bring -raid damage and bubbles, -raid damage doesn't stack and weakened soul means they end up fighting |
| 12:25.07 | Grum | that is so not needed |
| 12:25.19 | Pneumatus | the -raid damage can also be negated by having a prot pally as well |
| 12:25.21 | Grum | you can easily outrun anub if you position the patches sortof ok |
| 12:26.19 | Pneumatus | body and soul is overkill though, i agree |
| 12:26.21 | Grum | we actually only use 5/8 patches |
| 12:26.39 | Jerub | i don't know what's what with anub. we killed it in 10man 1shot on my first try of it in a pug the other night |
| 12:26.40 | Grum | its PC deaths which get us now |
| 12:26.42 | Pneumatus | we've had nights with no holy priest and still managed to handle it ok |
| 12:26.42 | Grum | or healer aggro ;( |
| 12:26.55 | Grum | Jerub: yes, normal mode is piss easy |
| 12:27.03 | Grum | try hardmode, then the HP per second is -30% :P |
| 12:27.17 | Pneumatus | healer aggro can easily be solved by havign them all stand on the edge of the frost that's being used for tanking |
| 12:27.18 | Antiarc | We did Anub 10 normal in 60 seconds a couple weeks ago, just because we could |
| 12:27.22 | Antiarc | It was rather hilarious |
| 12:27.24 | Pneumatus | and rogues spamming ToT etc |
| 12:27.35 | Grum | yeah lol |
| 12:27.43 | Grum | we nuked 10 normal with heroism from the start |
| 12:27.50 | Grum | and he was 15% when heroism faded orso :) |
| 12:27.59 | Antiarc | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FtsfVR4_ls&fmt=22 |
| 12:28.01 | Grum | 1 healer, 1 tank, ignore adds =D |
| 12:28.05 | Antiarc | yeah |
| 12:28.08 | Antiarc | We just cleaved the adds down |
| 12:28.12 | Antiarc | Because lolz melee? |
| 12:29.30 | Grum | yeah ehhe |
| 12:29.37 | Grum | well you need to kill at least 1 add by 'accident' |
| 12:30.20 | Grum | i wish we could nail anub on 25m hc as well |
| 12:30.23 | Grum | he's just a fucking pain |
| 12:32.39 | Fisker | Antiarcmen |
| 12:32.50 | Antiarc | yes, Fiskerfish? |
| 12:35.54 | Fisker | i find that offensive |
| 12:36.22 | nevcairiel | good |
| 12:36.36 | Grum | 9% best try sofar, always falling over on healers (healing aggro), PC victims and the resulting lack of healing/dps ;( |
| 12:37.48 | Fisker | :( |
| 12:46.39 | Fisker | baw Grum |
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| 13:53.29 | Kraps | morning |
| 13:55.56 | zenzelezz | heya |
| 14:02.15 | Jerub | crud, got the EoC neck for my bear+cat and now my bear is on a hitfood diet again |
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| 14:22.17 | Bruners | http://www.break.com/index/awesome-ghostbusters-multitrack.html |
| 14:23.37 | olafski | hahaha wow |
| 14:23.46 | Wobin | Purina Hitchow |
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| 16:45.38 | Shirik | batrick: compile what code? The posted code? |
| 16:45.49 | Shirik | It's uploaded to a site and automatically compiled and run |
| 16:45.56 | Shirik | iirc the command line was g++ -Wall |
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| 16:47.00 | Shirik | so this guy decided he was going to tank as a shaman |
| 16:47.03 | Shirik | http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Chromaggus&cn=Sharicasmi&gn=Masquers |
| 16:48.13 | Fisker | Shirik |
| 16:48.14 | Fisker | i like you |
| 16:48.23 | Shirik | hi friend |
| 16:48.29 | Pneumatus | get crit much :< |
| 16:48.30 | Fisker | soup |
| 16:48.35 | Lopeppeppy | morning shirik |
| 16:48.39 | alestane | It's hard to get the mitigation you need in mail, with no armor-bonus abilities. |
| 16:48.51 | Fisker | it's actually evening Lopeppeppy |
| 16:48.56 | Shirik | Pneumatus: I would advise reading the link before saying that |
| 16:49.01 | Shirik | he's crit immune |
| 16:49.07 | Lopeppeppy | Fisker, I don't have to beat you with UGT do i? |
| 16:49.11 | Shirik | the only "problem" I see is his dodge is a bit low |
| 16:49.55 | Hirsute | Is the defense cap lower for Shammies than for Warriors? |
| 16:50.21 | Pneumatus | what's he planning to tank, molten core? |
| 16:50.31 | Hirsute | Like, on the order of 100 points lower? |
| 16:50.49 | Hirsute | Oh, wait. Resilience |
| 16:50.53 | Hirsute | feels dumb |
| 16:51.12 | Shirik | Pneumatus: hell if I know, not my server |
| 16:51.17 | Shirik | but I think he should do fine tanking heroics |
| 16:51.45 | Shirik | my guild used shamans to tank flames on illidan in BC, so it's not unheard of |
| 16:51.52 | Pneumatus | sure, heroics would be fine, i've had locks tanking heroics :) |
| 16:52.29 | Shirik | he has the gear for Naxx if everyone else does |
| 16:52.30 | Hirsute | Heck, there was even a rogue tank out there making headlines for a while. |
| 16:52.41 | Shirik | the only problem I'd be worried about is his threat |
| 16:53.33 | Pneumatus | and he'd never be able to tank anything that need a tank switch :< |
| 16:54.57 | alestane | My friends and I have been leveling a bunch of draenei, and the resto shammy does most of the tanking. Earth Shield healing + Frost Shock means he has enough threat for mor most things at lower levels anyway. About the only thing he can't get off me is a mob when my mind control runs out. |
| 16:55.16 | Pneumatus | frostshock doesnt have an aggro modifier anymore does it? |
| 16:55.20 | Pneumatus | i thought that got removed |
| 16:55.35 | Shirik | it should |
| 16:55.38 | Shirik | it pisses me off |
| 16:55.52 | alestane | Admittedly, we haven't played them in a while, but Frost Shock seemed to have plenty of aggro when we were doing it. |
| 16:56.20 | Codayus_ | No taunt, no threat bonus. So... No tank switching, and raid DPS is going to be capped pretty hard. But... *shrug* Most of Naxx should be easy, and with sufficient work he could probably tank some significantly more difficult content. |
| 16:56.40 | Pneumatus | i thought they removed it when they removed the threat increase from mind blast, however wowhead disagrees with me |
| 16:57.15 | Pneumatus | fast weapon + maelstrom + chain lightning is probably half decent for pack aggro as well |
| 16:57.33 | Codayus_ | Shame they made rockbiter boring. |
| 16:58.08 | Codayus_ | (By removing its threat bonus.) |
| 17:06.40 | Shirik | wtf |
| 17:06.46 | Shirik | We have an assignment due tomorrow |
| 17:06.52 | Lopeppeppy | and? |
| 17:06.55 | Shirik | and we've been working on it for like 5 weeks |
| 17:06.57 | nevcairiel | and you realized just now? |
| 17:06.59 | nevcairiel | oh |
| 17:07.02 | Shirik | and I get this email froim the professor |
| 17:07.45 | Shirik | "Wow, this is some week. (1) We lost a student, never a good thing. (2) One of the students decided to drop the class. (3) I haven't gotten Blackboard email to work. So here is the message for the week: do the best you can for the assignement and turn in what you have on Monday. |
| 17:07.46 | Shirik | DO NOT WORRY ABOUT THE GRADE! Its just not that important for this assignment. We will just use this project as the basis for the next. We will also have to make some team adjustments for the next project. See you all on Monday."" |
| 17:07.54 | Shirik | 5 weeks and grade is not important -_- |
| 17:08.02 | Lopeppeppy | ... ouch |
| 17:08.13 | Shirik | and it's like a 70 page assignment too |
| 17:08.24 | Lopeppeppy | damn! |
| 17:09.13 | Shirik | The other thing I'm pissed off at |
| 17:09.13 | Shirik | IT decided to switch us over to this "Live mail" |
| 17:09.14 | foxlit | 70 pages is well into the realm is "who is going to read this, anyway?" |
| 17:09.18 | foxlit | aka "Let's ensure we have some awesome diagrams." |
| 17:09.23 | Lopeppeppy | the idiot who assigned it better read it |
| 17:09.37 | Shirik | which seems to have like zero spam filtering |
| 17:09.53 | alestane | I'm inclined to say that that's still preferable to "Despite our various technical difficulties I expect your assignment to fucking SHINE", but yes, annoying. |
| 17:09.53 | Shirik | whereas our old system was almost perfect |
| 17:10.04 | Shirik | foxlit: 70 pages is actually short |
| 17:13.25 | Cide | not really |
| 17:16.01 | Shirik | not really? |
| 17:16.30 | Shirik | considering I've written them personally at 130 pages and one as a team nearing 4000 pages (though that was in industry), I consider it pretty short |
| 17:16.47 | Shirik | it's not meant to be read. It's a reference |
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| 17:32.06 | Shirik | they're remaking plan 9 from outer space? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJh-gdpJxJo&feature=player_embedded |
| 17:32.19 | Lopeppeppy | oh dear, yet another one? |
| 17:32.23 | alestane | Buy WHY? |
| 17:33.06 | Shirik | all the trailer says is "for ed and his crew" |
| 17:33.33 | Lopeppeppy | yum. not |
| 17:37.10 | zenzelezz | what's plan 9? |
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| 17:39.18 | alestane | A phenomenally bad sci-fi horror movie by Ed Wood. |
| 17:39.58 | Aelobin | is there a more efficient way of adding one table's contents into another than doing a pairs() and table.inserting each entry? |
| 17:40.36 | Lopeppeppy | has a sick. Oh noes! |
| 17:40.50 | Mr_Rabies | i won't watch it unless it's daytime and nighttime between shots in the same scene |
| 17:41.32 | Mr_Rabies | and they make a time machine to put bela lugosi in it |
| 17:41.35 | zenzelezz | Aelobin: I think there is a table.concat |
| 17:41.57 | Mr_Rabies | or even better, a CG bela lugosi, created in 3ds max by a freshman 3d animation student |
| 17:42.05 | alestane | Aelobin: Not really, since you have to have code that resolves collisoins. |
| 17:42.15 | alestane | zenzelezz: There is, but it does something else. |
| 17:42.24 | zenzelezz | oh |
| 17:43.26 | Aelobin | alestane: well the index of each entry has no meaning |
| 17:43.43 | Aelobin | it's 2 number indexed tables that i just need the values putting into 1 number indexed table |
| 17:44.03 | alestane | Are they both 1..n with no gaps? |
| 17:44.11 | Aelobin | yes |
| 17:45.10 | alestane | Then ipairs will be a bit more efficient. |
| 17:45.10 | alestane | for i, v in ipairs(t2) do table.insert(t1, v) end |
| 17:45.46 | Aelobin | hmm could you explain the difference? :P |
| 17:46.17 | alestane | pairs goes through all keys in a table in an arbitrary order. |
| 17:46.45 | alestane | ipairs goes through integer keys only, in ascending order from 1 until it reaches a nil key. |
| 17:47.02 | Aelobin | aha ty |
| 17:47.57 | Aelobin | so with integer indexed tables i sould always use ipairs over pairs |
| 17:48.16 | alestane | It will often be more efficient, and it will guarantee order. |
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| 17:48.42 | alestane | If there could be gaps in the table, however, you probably need either pairs or a numerical for. |
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| 17:57.01 | alestane | In Lua, the terms list and array are often used to explicitly mean a table whose only content relevant to the operation is a series of integer keys ascending contiguously from 1 and their values. |
| 17:58.31 | Kraps | just finished equilibrium |
| 17:59.31 | Shirik | I think list and array are two distinct items |
| 17:59.58 | alestane | The usual term is array in Lua, but I don't know if list has any other defined meaning in Lua. |
| 18:00.25 | Shirik | I consider the result of ... to be a list |
| 18:00.25 | nevcairiel | whats a list in lua then? |
| 18:00.35 | mikma | wowi admins are slow today :( |
| 18:01.21 | Seerah | mikma: I just sat down :p (unless you need a *real* admin, since I don't see you poking Shirik :p ) |
| 18:01.21 | nevcairiel | tables can be used to build lists, sets and hashes |
| 18:01.47 | Shirik | that depends on your definition of "list" |
| 18:02.03 | nevcairiel | well in java terms, List, Set, Map |
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| 18:03.29 | alestane | In the Lua expression "a, b = c, d", a,b and c,d are certainly lists of values or variables, but I don't know if they would be considered list structures, since that term usually has specific denotations in programming. |
| 18:03.57 | nevcairiel | I would consider a list an actual datatype, like javas List |
| 18:04.08 | nevcairiel | or just an array, a ordererd list of values |
| 18:05.04 | Shirik | What other programming languages call it is mostly irrelevant |
| 18:05.12 | nevcairiel | and you can actually convert beteen "..." and an array-list in Lua, Shirik :D |
| 18:05.15 | Shirik | for example, in C, the we use the concept "vararg list" |
| 18:05.23 | Shirik | I wouldn't call it an array-list |
| 18:05.26 | Shirik | I would call it an array |
| 18:05.34 | Shirik | and I also wouldn't call it conversion because you can't go both ways |
| 18:05.41 | Shirik | you can create an array from the ... list |
| 18:05.53 | nevcairiel | well you can unpack it into function calls |
| 18:06.03 | Shirik | you can'tshove it into ... :P |
| 18:07.16 | nevcairiel | no, but unpack gives you the same thing |
| 18:07.24 | nevcairiel | you just cant store it |
| 18:07.27 | Shirik | except that you can't store it unless you make a closure |
| 18:07.28 | alestane | At least in STL, a list is a sequence of like items that can be easily traversed sequentially but not randomly. |
| 18:07.32 | Shirik | in which case you have a closure :P |
| 18:07.49 | Shirik | alestane: I'm pretty sure tables do not fit that description |
| 18:07.52 | Shirik | a vector is not a list |
| 18:08.06 | Shirik | a vector is a set, and a list is a set |
| 18:08.08 | Shirik | but a vector is not a list |
| 18:08.16 | alestane | Of course, Python's definition of a list is completely different. |
| 18:08.28 | Shirik | just because you CAN use it like a, as you call it, list, doesn't mean it is one |
| 18:08.44 | Shirik | you can limit yourself to accessing a table only sequentially, but that doesn't make it any more a list than a vector is |
| 18:08.53 | nevcairiel | a table is a table, you can do is however you like |
| 18:08.54 | nevcairiel | done :P |
| 18:08.58 | Shirik | exactly :P |
| 18:09.12 | nevcairiel | I was just saying you can use it like Lists, Sets and Maps |
| 18:09.20 | Shirik | but it isn't one |
| 18:09.21 | nevcairiel | comparing to the 3 java types |
| 18:09.29 | Shirik | and that's all I was saying |
| 18:09.43 | alestane | A proper list in Lua would be something like a series of {[value] = nextItem} tables. |
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| 18:09.53 | Shirik | why would you say that? |
| 18:09.59 | nevcairiel | a linked list with tables? :P |
| 18:10.03 | Shirik | STL's list does not require a key for each item |
| 18:10.08 | Shirik | in fact, it cannot have a key for each item |
| 18:10.15 | alestane | I've considered them a few times, but never found a situation where they were actually for efficient. |
| 18:10.18 | Shirik | it is just a sequential list and that's it |
| 18:10.25 | Shirik | ... fits that definition |
| 18:10.50 | Shirik | you can only access it in order and there are no keys identifying individual elements, except the pseudo-key of its position |
| 18:10.54 | alestane | Except that ... is really not very sequential. |
| 18:11.00 | Shirik | it is perfectly sequential |
| 18:11.04 | nevcairiel | due to the dynamic design of tables, i don't think its really a good idea in Lua to use linked lists |
| 18:11.06 | Shirik | you cannot access anything except from start to finish |
| 18:11.09 | Shirik | in that order |
| 18:11.19 | alestane | It's in sequence, but you can't get the next item from any given item. |
| 18:11.22 | TopTop18 | Q: I want a frame to be shown or hided by clicking on a button, but WoWPragramming says that Frame:Hide() and Frame:Show() are not callable when in combat, how to make it so that the player can still open and close the frame in combat? |
| 18:11.27 | Shirik | neither can you in any other list |
| 18:11.38 | Shirik | You don't get the next item from a std::list from the previous item |
| 18:11.41 | alestane | It's a list, but you can only unpack it all at once. |
| 18:11.42 | Shirik | you get it from the standard iterator |
| 18:11.54 | Seerah | TopTop18: what kind of frame? |
| 18:12.09 | Shirik | You can easily get the first item out of a list |
| 18:12.13 | Shirik | or the first and the second |
| 18:12.15 | Shirik | or the first second and third |
| 18:12.20 | TopTop18 | An normal frame |
| 18:12.41 | Shirik | and so forth until you get everything |
| 18:12.50 | nevcairiel | You can show/hide normal frames just fine |
| 18:12.58 | nevcairiel | only secure frames are protected |
| 18:13.07 | nevcairiel | only protected frames are secure? |
| 18:13.08 | nevcairiel | :P |
| 18:13.20 | Seerah | shrugs :) |
| 18:13.31 | alestane | Only protected frames are protected. |
| 18:13.38 | nevcairiel | hehe |
| 18:13.51 | alestane | security is a property of execution paths and references. |
| 18:14.30 | Shirik | protects nevcairiel's frames |
| 18:14.47 | nevcairiel | only protected frames are restricted! |
| 18:14.50 | nevcairiel | better |
| 18:15.40 | Kraps | im watching the beginning of star trek and im crying |
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| 18:15.52 | nevcairiel | which star trek? |
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| 18:16.01 | Kraps | this years |
| 18:16.04 | nevcairiel | oh |
| 18:16.08 | nevcairiel | i actually liked that movie |
| 18:16.08 | Shirik | wtfhax |
| 18:16.33 | nevcairiel | the young kirk was kinda cool :P |
| 18:17.35 | Kraps | well yeah, he saved his wife and kid by SMASHING INTO THE OTHER GUYS |
| 18:17.46 | nevcairiel | not him |
| 18:17.55 | nevcairiel | his son, james t |
| 18:17.58 | nevcairiel | just continue watching :P |
| 18:18.30 | TopTop18 | Oh and protected frames are actionbuttons and such? |
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| 18:18.49 | nevcairiel | TopTop18: anything that inherits from a secure template, so yeah, actionbuttons, unitframe buttons, etc |
| 18:19.03 | Kraps | woot vintage car dashing |
| 18:21.12 | Fisker | i like how shields in star trek aren't actually shields |
| 18:21.27 | Fisker | also how they doesn't just shoot him out of the air before he hit the other ship |
| 18:21.35 | Fisker | but yeah it was nice |
| 18:22.19 | Lopeppeppy | I like how him crashing into that ship didn't destroy it or anything. It comes right back, no scratches or anything. |
| 18:23.58 | Fisker | spock was awesome though |
| 18:24.13 | Lopeppeppy | Mmm, Sylar kicks absolute ass. |
| 18:24.25 | Kraps | full disclosure: i dont know anything about the ST universe, except the names of major players |
| 18:24.32 | Fisker | i don't see how they didn't percieve a giant fucking drill drilling in their planet as a threat |
| 18:24.36 | alestane | Sounds like we have a Zach Quinto fan in the building. |
| 18:24.50 | nevcairiel | Kraps: thats not important for that movie, its a flashback before anythign startrek anyway |
| 18:25.01 | Kraps | nevcairiel: i know |
| 18:25.15 | Kraps | oh it sylar hehe |
| 18:25.31 | nevcairiel | Its a bit silly that the ships look way more advanced then anything else, though :P |
| 18:26.32 | Shirik | has anyone seen the trailers for this new ben 10 movie? |
| 18:26.52 | Shirik | it's really bothering me that it looks like an exact copy of michael chrichton's prey |
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| 18:45.42 | smcn | Shirik: looks pretty terrible |
| 18:48.04 | Mikk | slaps nevcairiel around with a bit of stinky cod |
| 18:48.10 | Mikk | There's perfectly reasonable uses of linked lists in Lua! |
| 18:48.15 | nevcairiel | what now! |
| 18:48.16 | Mikk | Mostly queues |
| 18:48.39 | ScytheBlade1 | whoops, ran my desktop out of memory |
| 18:48.53 | nevcairiel | the additional tables better then tinsert/tremove? |
| 18:49.05 | Mikk | Additional? |
| 18:49.15 | Mikk | Just have a .next member pointing to the next entry |
| 18:49.26 | Mikk | That member uses as much space as the integer index |
| 18:49.31 | nevcairiel | assuming the data you store already is a table |
| 18:49.44 | Mikk | And doesn't suffer from having to move indices around as with tinsert/tremove |
| 18:49.48 | Mikk | Yes, absolutely true |
| 18:49.57 | Mikk | I guess I should have said queues of objects |
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| 18:50.30 | nevcairiel | i suppose it would have its uses there |
| 18:50.34 | Mikk | But if it's a long queue and we're talking WoW, it's probably still preferable to use linked lists |
| 18:50.47 | Mikk | Have you tried deleting from the top of a 10k integer-indexed list? |
| 18:50.51 | Mikk | It takes aaages :< |
| 18:51.00 | nevcairiel | heh |
| 18:53.43 | Mikk | Granted if you unspool SEVERAL items - which is when you really notice the impact |
| 18:53.51 | Mikk | And you don't do it one by one |
| 18:54.05 | Mikk | And rather do the shuffle down yourself (by moving e.g. 101 to 1, 102 to 2, etc) |
| 18:54.12 | Mikk | Integer-indexed probably wins again |
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| 18:59.48 | Shirik | tbh |
| 18:59.58 | Shirik | the most efficient implementation is probably a 2-tiered approach |
| 19:00.06 | Shirik | abstracted linked list of arrays |
| 19:00.34 | Shirik | that way instead of reshuffling a 10k array, you reshuffle maybe a hundred |
| 19:00.42 | Shirik | easy on memory and CPU time |
| 19:03.35 | Fisker | slaps Shirik around a bit with a large trout |
| 19:06.29 | ScytheBlade1 | my tower gets hot when I run 6 VMs at the same time |
| 19:06.58 | Shirik | my tower is both a tower and hot |
| 19:06.59 | foxlit | is writing abominable code in ANSI C. |
| 19:08.16 | foxlit | And the horrible part is that I realize it's abominable, but lack the experience to fix it. |
| 19:08.35 | Shirik | it's ANSI C |
| 19:08.39 | Shirik | it is supposed to be ugly |
| 19:08.44 | Shirik | not only is it C, so it's automatically bad |
| 19:08.54 | Shirik | it's old, so meant to be indecipherable |
| 19:11.35 | foxlit | I'm not sure whether its age is that much of a factor. |
| 19:16.25 | nevcairiel | are any ION based netbooks actually available yet? |
| 19:16.29 | nevcairiel | i cant find any |
| 19:19.47 | Arrowmaster | so i just finished ninja gaiden sigma 2 on path of the warrior, a lot of the boss fights pertty much all of them especially the later ones were a fucking joke compared to ninja gaiden 2 on path of the acolyte |
| 19:27.51 | mikma | seerah|away: i was just wanting them to approve my megacool addon |
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| 19:30.25 | Arrowmaster | fucking assholes, i got the trophy for beating path of the warrior but not the trophy for the easiest difficulty, why dont game developers learn that when they offer multiple difficulties at the start they should award you for the lesser ones when you complete a harder one |
| 19:31.31 | foxlit | Arrowmaster: because REPLAY VALUE blah blah. |
| 19:31.31 | Lopeppeppy | hate hate hate |
| 19:31.31 | Arrowmaster | foxlit: the game already has 4 difficulties and you have to play it 3 times total to play the hardest |
| 19:31.32 | foxlit | I'm also annoyed at Solitare counting impossible games against your win/loss record. |
| 19:32.32 | Arrowmaster | the 360 version has 5 point achievements for completing the entire game using only one weapon |
| 19:33.26 | Arrowmaster | and you have to do a newgame+ to do that for anything but the first weapon so thats like 6 plays + 2 more for the other difficulties |
| 19:34.06 | Arrowmaster | thankfully they removed those for the ps3 version |
| 19:35.42 | Fisker | lol enrage just before massive crash :( |
| 19:36.33 | Fisker | only 700k hp left too :/ |
| 19:42.34 | Grum | Fisker: you raiding your mom again? |
| 19:45.51 | alestane | æå¸æä½ æ»å¨ç«ç¾ looks suspiciously like Chinese for "I hope you die in a fire." |
| 19:46.18 | foxlit | The universal curse of wotlk raiders? |
| 19:47.22 | alestane | It was someone's sig: "Attention Keyloggers: æå¸æä½ æ»å¨ç«ç¾" |
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| 19:59.22 | Fisker | slaps Grum around a bit with a large trout |
| 19:59.22 | Fisker | slaps alestane around a bit with a large trout |
| 19:59.23 | Fisker | slaps foxlit around a bit with a large trout |
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| 20:00.35 | TC-Away | pees on Fisker's children |
| 20:01.09 | alestane | slaps Fisker around a bit with a small shark. Sandpaper skin FTW. |
| 20:01.17 | Fisker | i ain't afraid of no slaps |
| 20:02.17 | Lopeppeppy | booga booga |
| 20:10.40 | *** join/#wowuidev Repo (n=supybot@69.57.184.216) |
| 20:13.46 | *** join/#wowuidev Seerah (n=Ryan@c-76-107-191-65.hsd1.tn.comcast.net) |
| 20:13.46 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o Seerah] by ChanServ |
| 20:16.37 | Adys | where does git format-patch generate the patches? |
| 20:16.57 | *** part/#wowuidev Seerah (n=Ryan@c-76-107-191-65.hsd1.tn.comcast.net) |
| 20:18.16 | nevcairiel | in a tiny magical castle |
| 20:18.20 | nevcairiel | where else! |
| 20:18.29 | Lopeppeppy | maybe a larger magical castle? |
| 20:18.31 | *** join/#wowuidev kdtresh (n=kdtresh@adsl-75-15-203-210.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net) |
| 20:19.16 | Fisker | haha |
| 20:19.18 | Fisker | FAILURE 2K |
| 20:19.30 | Fisker | "wah wah if we release the game now it'll be torrented by the evening" |
| 20:19.47 | Fisker | Well good job, it was instead of being "torrented in the evening" just torrented 9 hours before release |
| 20:32.54 | Thunder_Child | even worse than that Fisker, assuming the scene group work their usual magic, they have 24 hours to let people play the game before 2K unlocks it |
| 20:33.56 | Fisker | ;3? |
| 20:34.22 | Thunder_Child | Fisker, i dont read emote. learn to use big boy words |
| 20:36.38 | Fisker | i wonder what the usual magic is |
| 20:36.57 | Thunder_Child | cracking it |
| 20:37.06 | Thunder_Child | VM or bypass |
| 20:41.17 | Fisker | that's what i meant |
| 20:41.20 | Fisker | it's been cracked |
| 20:41.37 | Fisker | they got an unencrypted copy and pwnt 2k |
| 20:45.29 | zenzelezz | perhaps old: http://izismile.com/img/img2/20091021/daily_picdump_268_06.jpg |
| 20:45.39 | Grum | Fisker: what game? :( |
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| 20:47.22 | *** join/#wowuidev kdtresh (n=kdtresh@adsl-75-15-203-210.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net) |
| 20:47.23 | Dagmar | I don't think he knows |
| 20:48.50 | *** join/#wowuidev sioraiocht (n=tomh@unaffiliated/sioraiocht) |
| 20:50.18 | Fisker | lol |
| 20:50.23 | Fisker | borderlands Grum |
| 20:50.51 | Fisker | dreadscale burning biled all melee and sweeped at the same time |
| 20:52.34 | *** join/#wowuidev Kraft_ (n=Chris@cpc1-cwma7-2-0-cust280.7-3.cable.virginmedia.com) |
| 20:58.40 | *** join/#wowuidev Kraftman (n=Chris@cpc1-cwma7-2-0-cust280.7-3.cable.virginmedia.com) |
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| 21:09.54 | Arrowmaster | http://kotaku.com/5388188/final-fantasy-xiii-drink-dated rofl @ chocobo can |
| 21:13.13 | Lopeppeppy | How cute |
| 21:13.47 | Thunder_Child | armory fails |
| 21:16.34 | *** join/#wowuidev ColinT (n=ColinT@69-11-97-130.regn.static.sasknet.sk.ca) |
| 21:19.12 | *** join/#wowuidev Seerah (n=Ryan@c-76-107-191-65.hsd1.tn.comcast.net) |
| 21:19.12 | *** mode/#wowuidev [+o Seerah] by ChanServ |
| 21:20.17 | *** join/#wowuidev Hjalte (n=chatzill@cpe.ge-0-2-0-835.arcnqu2.customer.tele.dk) |
| 21:21.47 | Shirik | wheee |
| 21:21.51 | Shirik | has a google wave invite |
| 21:22.09 | ScytheBlade1 | I beat you to it |
| 21:22.13 | ScytheBlade1 | By a lot! |
| 21:22.13 | Cairenn | :( |
| 21:22.14 | Shirik | ok I had it 2 days ago |
| 21:22.14 | ScytheBlade1 | Sucker |
| 21:22.16 | Shirik | I just didn't notice |
| 21:22.17 | Shirik | ok then fu |
| 21:22.18 | ScytheBlade1 | bah |
| 21:22.24 | ScytheBlade1 | Then we tied I think |
| 21:22.25 | ScytheBlade1 | -.- |
| 21:22.33 | Shirik | I had it at... |
| 21:22.36 | Cairenn | is still hoping for one yet |
| 21:22.42 | Shirik | dateFri, Oct 23, 2009 at 6:46 PM |
| 21:22.49 | ScytheBlade1 | 10/23 2:36 PM |
| 21:22.50 | ScytheBlade1 | ha |
| 21:22.52 | Shirik | :( |
| 21:22.53 | ScytheBlade1 | wins |
| 21:22.58 | Shirik | EDT? |
| 21:23.06 | ScytheBlade1 | MST, but I still win |
| 21:23.09 | Shirik | :( |
| 21:23.12 | Shirik | only by like 2 hours |
| 21:23.32 | newb | ~4 |
| 21:23.33 | purl | 4 is a number, silly |
| 21:23.54 | Seerah | google wave? |
| 21:24.01 | ScytheBlade1 | id E1B78CFB2D; Fri, 23 Oct 2009 16:35:30 -0400 (EDT) |
| 21:24.02 | Lopeppeppy | "didn't notice" |
| 21:24.24 | Shirik | I don't think I can see this |
| 21:24.25 | Lopeppeppy | Seerah, it's like... Google Cloud Computing Wonder Glory stuff. And stuff. |
| 21:24.49 | Seerah | .... oh .... |
| 21:25.03 | ScytheBlade1 | Cairenn: anyone put you on their invite list? Everyone gets 20 invites, but they take a few days to process |
| 21:25.17 | Cairenn | not to my knowledge :p |
| 21:25.18 | Lopeppeppy | Cairenn am Canadienne |
| 21:25.32 | ScytheBlade1 | pokes Shirik |
| 21:25.38 | ScytheBlade1 | Go use your new account |
| 21:25.51 | Shirik | I don't know how lol |
| 21:25.52 | Lopeppeppy | Can you invite furriners? |
| 21:25.54 | Cairenn | naw, no stress :) |
| 21:26.06 | ScytheBlade1 | There is an invite wave |
| 21:26.10 | Cairenn | I submitted a beta request, may get it eventually |
| 21:26.16 | Lopeppeppy | Seerah, I promise it's spiffy and stuff, or so they swear. I myself am not all jumpity for joy over here, but hey |
| 21:26.31 | Lopeppeppy | I could be distracted by the football game |
| 21:26.34 | Seerah | hehe :) |
| 21:26.44 | Kraps | hmm yeah, i've always wondered what would happen if a ship traveling at warp speed met a black hole |
| 21:26.55 | Lopeppeppy | *slurp* |
| 21:27.04 | Seerah | I'm distracted by finally being able to have my new computer, having just installed win7, and now doing all my programs,files, etc |
| 21:27.17 | Lopeppeppy | Yay, a computer that computes! |
| 21:27.26 | Kraps | by always i mean never but its cool anyway |
| 21:27.57 | Shirik | invite wave ScytheBlade1? |
| 21:29.18 | ScytheBlade1 | check your inbox |
| 21:29.23 | Shirik | Kraps: Actually |
| 21:29.29 | Shirik | a ship travelling at warp speed HAS to meet a black hole |
| 21:29.31 | Shirik | because it is infinitely long |
| 21:29.35 | Shirik | and infinitely massive |
| 21:29.53 | Shirik | ScytheBlade1: inbox is empty |
| 21:30.43 | ScytheBlade1 | meh |
| 21:30.48 | ScytheBlade1 | You're terrible then |
| 21:30.50 | Kraps | Shirik: wouldnt they cancel each other out and result is zero net movement? |
| 21:31.28 | Fisker | grr |
| 21:31.45 | Fisker | Maintank: "If we focus then we have a kill" (On Northrend Beasts 5 seconds before a massive crash) |
| 21:31.52 | Fisker | "Icehowl glares at maintank" |
| 21:31.54 | Fisker | Maintank dies. |
| 21:31.57 | Fisker | You were saying? |
| 21:32.59 | Shirik | Kraps: You assume infinity/infinity = 0 |
| 21:33.04 | Shirik | or 1 |
| 21:33.09 | Shirik | both of which are true |
| 21:33.10 | Shirik | and false |
| 21:33.15 | Kraps | ... |
| 21:33.22 | Kraps | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:34.35 | *** join/#wowuidev ColinT (n=ColinT@69-11-97-130.regn.static.sasknet.sk.ca) |
| 21:36.15 | foxlit | Fisker: "Focus" is a generally useless message. |
| 21:36.24 | Fisker | :3 |
| 21:42.31 | Shirik | focuses on foxlit |
| 21:42.52 | foxlit | runs away, trapping Shirik on permafrost. |
| 21:43.16 | Shirik | emerges from underground |
| 21:43.21 | Fisker | slaps Shirik around a bit with a large trout |
| 21:44.34 | *** part/#wowuidev Seerah (n=Ryan@c-76-107-191-65.hsd1.tn.comcast.net) |
| 21:59.08 | *** join/#wowuidev Doow (n=Miranda@unaffiliated/doow) |
| 22:01.52 | *** join/#wowuidev Shadowed (n=Shadowed@li89-205.members.linode.com) |
| 22:04.18 | *** join/#wowuidev Doow (n=Miranda@unaffiliated/doow) |
| 22:05.47 | DWSR | I thought that, at FTL speeds, normal physics stops applying? |
| 22:06.01 | Grum | someone is watching sgu! |
| 22:06.10 | DWSR | SG:A, actually. |
| 22:06.19 | Grum | sga? do they have ftl there? mmm |
| 22:06.24 | Grum | too long ago :) |
| 22:06.30 | DWSR | I'm a whole series behind, which is fine by me, because I can watch it whenever/however I want. |
| 22:06.37 | DWSR | Grum, they have FTL in SG1. |
| 22:06.55 | Lopeppeppy | 99 bottles of beer on the wall |
| 22:07.17 | Grum | what ship? :( |
| 22:07.20 | DWSR | 99 bottles of beer |
| 22:07.29 | DWSR | You shoot one down, you pass it round, 98 bottles of beer. |
| 22:07.38 | DWSR | Grum: Prometheus, in the later seasons. |
| 22:07.44 | DWSR | Starting I think season 5 or 6? |
| 22:08.02 | Grum | ah yeah the azgard tech |
| 22:08.06 | DWSR | Yes. |
| 22:08.33 | DWSR | And in SG:A, the Wraith have (albeit limited) FTL capability, and the SG:A team has the Daedelus. |
| 22:09.21 | DWSR | Not to mention the fact that...well...they're in a fucking ancient city and the ancients had FTL. |
| 22:09.47 | DWSR | which reminds me, does the SG:A team stop being such pussies? |
| 22:09.49 | Grum | they just never really mention the 'ftl' part i think |
| 22:09.58 | Grum | yes and no |
| 22:10.05 | Grum | i quite like how SG:A turned out |
| 22:10.05 | DWSR | "Hyperspace" is FTL, I'm assuming. |
| 22:10.09 | Grum | yeah |
| 22:10.23 | Grum | in SGU they explicitly call it FTL |
| 22:10.24 | DWSR | I mean. |
| 22:10.29 | krka | FTL is FTW |
| 22:10.42 | *** join/#wowuidev p3lim (n=p3lim@89-151-222.200.3p.ntebredband.no) |
| 22:10.45 | DWSR | The SG:A team is holding guns in one scenario. |
| 22:10.59 | DWSR | Gets ambushed holding a ZPM, and the other people are like "We need to hide it, hand it over". |
| 22:11.00 | Lopeppeppy | mmm,guns |
| 22:11.01 | DWSR | And they do. |
| 22:11.15 | DWSR | I was like...wtf? |
| 22:11.18 | DWSR | Err, NOT. |
| 22:11.24 | DWSR | Just shot everyone.\ |
| 22:11.26 | DWSR | shoot* |
| 22:11.30 | Grum | yeah the whole ZPM business is meh :( |
| 22:11.30 | Fisker | no Grum |
| 22:11.34 | Fisker | FTL != Hyperspace |
| 22:11.53 | Fisker | FTL = Faster-Than-Light travel outside of subspace, Hyperspace = Travel through subspace |
| 22:12.10 | Grum | yeah, so they didnt have FTL in SGA/SG1 |
| 22:12.10 | DWSR | which just happens to occur FTL? |
| 22:12.21 | Dagmar | ignoring for the moment that this is fiction, FTL travel means you can still hit planets. |
| 22:12.25 | Fisker | yep DWSR signficantly faster |
| 22:12.27 | Dagmar | Hyperspace means you can't. |
| 22:12.40 | Fisker | we don't know how fast the destiny ship is though |
| 22:12.41 | DWSR | dumb question, why the hell would you ever want FTL travel?\ |
| 22:12.53 | Grum | hmm well, in SGU they 'drop out of FTL' and *then* can see shit again |
| 22:12.53 | Fisker | One thing that's really odd though |
| 22:12.57 | DWSR | i r can smashz planets, dur dur |
| 22:13.05 | Lopeppeppy | destiny go booom! |
| 22:13.07 | Fisker | The SG:A epsiode where they found the ancients travelling almost the speed of light |
| 22:13.26 | DWSR | I've only watched up until Season 2E11 |
| 22:13.29 | DWSR | So please, no spoilers. |
| 22:13.35 | Fisker | And that caused them to make a time dialation field that made it seem like a very short period of time, when in reality they had been flying for 10000 years |
| 22:13.40 | Fisker | not a spoiler really |
| 22:13.45 | DWSR | lol not really. |
| 22:14.05 | Fisker | Point just is that for some reason time was passing slower when they were running almost at the speed of light |
| 22:14.06 | DWSR | What I have noticed about SG:A is that, for every episode, there's an (almost) parallel episode from SG1. |
| 22:14.10 | Fisker | Why would the destiny be any different? |
| 22:14.14 | Thunder_Child | actually Fisker, hyperspace != subspace |
| 22:14.21 | *** join/#wowuidev ColinT (n=ColinT@69-11-97-130.regn.static.sasknet.sk.ca) |
| 22:14.26 | Fisker | you wanna fight about it Thunder_Child ? |
| 22:14.41 | DWSR | G.N.E.R.D. RAGE! |
| 22:14.49 | Lopeppeppy | geek rage |
| 22:14.56 | Thunder_Child | Fisker, yes |
| 22:15.12 | Fisker | fists Thunder_Child |
| 22:15.25 | Thunder_Child | wait..fighting or sex? |
| 22:15.31 | Thunder_Child | cuse that could be either |
| 22:15.42 | Fisker | it's both |
| 22:16.04 | Thunder_Child | not sure i know the rules for both |
| 22:16.39 | Lopeppeppy | there are rules? |
| 22:17.05 | Thunder_Child | i would assume so |
| 22:17.12 | Thunder_Child | otherwise how would you know who wins |
| 22:17.29 | Lopeppeppy | ... you're doing it wrong if there's a loser. *purr* |
| 22:18.51 | Thunder_Child | blinks at Lopeppeppy |
| 22:19.41 | NightHawkTheSane | and everybody wants prostetic foreheads for their real heads. |
| 22:20.08 | Lopeppeppy | For where they keep banging their heads on their keyboards in angst? |
| 22:24.15 | NightHawkTheSane | gifts Lopeppeppy tmbg's "Flood" |
| 22:25.12 | Thunder_Child | NightHawkTheSane, you mean "theme from flood"? |
| 22:25.18 | Lopeppeppy | what is a tmbg? |
| 22:25.24 | Thunder_Child | They Might Be Jiants |
| 22:25.27 | Thunder_Child | Giants* |
| 22:25.31 | Lopeppeppy | Oh. Those ones. |
| 22:27.23 | DWSR | They Might Be Gnats. |
| 22:27.34 | Lopeppeppy | They might be anything, but they're good. |
| 22:27.46 | DWSR | They Might Be Good. |
| 22:28.03 | DWSR | They Might Be Godawful. |
| 22:28.55 | DWSR | ucwutididthar? |
| 22:33.45 | foxlit | pop quiz: |
| 22:33.54 | foxlit | a = b ? c++ : 1; |
| 22:34.13 | foxlit | Assume a = b = c = 0 beforehand, what is the value of c afterwards? :) |
| 22:36.05 | DWSR | c is 1. |
| 22:36.19 | DWSR | assignments are always true. |
| 22:38.36 | Thunder_Child | lol NightHawkTheSane, we want a rock |
| 22:39.32 | foxlit | DWSR: brrr. |
| 22:39.37 | foxlit | c=0 |
| 22:41.54 | DWSR | foxlit: I read that as if (a = b) then c++ else 1;? |
| 22:42.11 | olafski | lua> c = 0; c++; print(c); |
| 22:42.12 | lua_bot | olafski: luabot:1: '=' expected near '+' |
| 22:42.23 | *** join/#wowuidev p3lim (n=p3lim@89-151-222.200.3p.ntebredband.no) |
| 22:42.31 | olafski | that's what I thought |
| 22:42.41 | NightHawkTheSane | Thunder_Child: a rock to tie a piece of string around? |
| 22:43.07 | foxlit | DWSR: it's parsed as assignment to a |
| 22:43.21 | Thunder_Child | NightHawkTheSane, indeed |
| 22:43.27 | foxlit | Nor are assignments always true. |
| 22:44.24 | DWSR | foxlit: Ah. |
| 22:44.27 | DWSR | Then yes, c=0. |
| 22:44.31 | DWSR | And a is 1 |
| 22:44.44 | foxlit | Yep. |
| 22:44.49 | foxlit | (a = b) ? c++ : 1; results in c=0, too. |
| 22:45.12 | DWSR | when is an assignment false, btw? |
| 22:45.15 | *** join/#wowuidev BWMerlin (n=chatzill@58.174.148.250) |
| 22:45.21 | DWSR | when it fails? |
| 22:45.29 | foxlit | When it assigned zero. |
| 22:45.38 | krka | in c, doesn't assignment return the value it assigned? |
| 22:45.43 | foxlit | ^ |
| 22:46.12 | NightHawkTheSane | not just in c, but yeah |
| 22:46.14 | DWSR | Right, but doesn't assignment return different values depending on which language? |
| 22:47.32 | foxlit | I'm sure some languages don't even allow mixing assignments and conditionals. |
| 22:48.19 | *** join/#wowuidev kdtresh (n=kdtresh@adsl-75-15-203-210.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net) |
| 22:49.31 | olafski | in java (a = b) would be true regardless of the value of b.. assuming of course no type errors |
| 22:51.24 | Pneumatus | java warns you iirc, same as c |
| 22:58.45 | bleeter | btw, it wasn't be who blew up the AH |
| 23:03.36 | Lopeppeppy | Anyone who says that is automagically guilty |
| 23:03.52 | bleeter | NEVAH |
| 23:04.01 | Lopeppeppy | ALWAZE |
| 23:04.35 | bleeter | ORLY |
| 23:05.12 | Lopeppeppy | nowai |
| 23:21.26 | bleeter | BUTTSECKS |
| 23:23.04 | *** join/#wowuidev dGrimes_ (n=andrew@S01060018f8ee1d83.gv.shawcable.net) |
| 23:26.12 | Lopeppeppy | ... you can have it, no thanks |
| 23:29.38 | *** join/#wowuidev ColinT (n=ColinT@69-11-97-130.regn.static.sasknet.sk.ca) |
| 23:31.49 | Mikk | gifv assignments returning values out for use in conditionals in Lua |
| 23:31.51 | Mikk | while var = getsomething() do . ... end |
| 23:33.47 | *** join/#wowuidev robotusch (n=robotusc@50A2DA6F.flatrate.dk) |
| 23:35.38 | *** join/#wowuidev A-KO (i=as@69.143.90.155) |
| 23:43.41 | Pneumatus | var = getsomething(); while var do ...; var = getsomething() end |
| 23:43.42 | Pneumatus | ? |
| 23:43.58 | *** join/#wowuidev p3lim (n=p3lim@89.151.222.200) |
| 23:45.01 | dGrimes_ | Is there a way to populate an empty pre-defined table with the return values of an API call? |
| 23:45.17 | dGrimes_ | Without having to declare each return value before hand. |
| 23:45.40 | alestane | {SomeAPIWithMultipleReturns(args)} |
| 23:45.49 | dGrimes_ | Thank you. |
| 23:46.35 | alestane | Ah, I misread. You can create a new table containing all the returns, but you can't fill them into an existing table. |
| 23:47.00 | dGrimes_ | Well the table will be empty to start with. |
| 23:49.08 | Pneumatus | you'd probably just want to do something like local foo = {GetItemInfo(12345)} then |
| 23:49.18 | alestane | Then you can use a block like |
| 23:49.18 | alestane | (function (t, ...) for i=1,select('#', ...) do table.insert(t, (select(i, ....))) end)(yourTable, SomeAPIWithMultipleReturns(args)) |
| 23:49.33 | alestane | with an option on predefining the function for clarity and efficiency. |
| 23:49.54 | dGrimes_ | Ok. I'll give that a go. |
| 23:49.59 | jnwhiteh | function pack(...) return {select("#", ...), ...} end |
| 23:50.01 | jnwhiteh | that's the best way to do it |
| 23:50.10 | jnwhiteh | then local foo = pack(GetItemInfo(12345)) |
| 23:50.19 | Pneumatus | and unpack() is the reverse operation :) |
| 23:50.25 | jnwhiteh | Pneumatus: no, actually |
| 23:50.31 | jnwhiteh | it'd give you one too many returns =) |
| 23:50.45 | jnwhiteh | the important part when making tables like that is to store the number of entries in the vararg somewhere |
| 23:50.50 | jnwhiteh | since if it has nils, you can't count on anything |
| 23:50.53 | jnwhiteh | so |
| 23:51.02 | alestane | jnwhiteh: I might consider doing it as {[0] = select('#', ...), ...}. |
| 23:51.07 | jnwhiteh | alestane: either way |
| 23:51.10 | jnwhiteh | you have to write an unpack function |
| 23:51.15 | jnwhiteh | so it really doesn't matter _where_ you shove it. |
| 23:51.34 | jnwhiteh | as long as you shove it =) |
| 23:52.01 | Pneumatus | oh, unpack() would return the number of args as well? |
| 23:52.18 | jnwhiteh | Pneumatus: yes, since its stored in the first element |
| 23:52.25 | jnwhiteh | and unpack uses # which doesn't work when there are nils |
| 23:52.26 | jnwhiteh | so |
| 23:52.36 | Pneumatus | if you put the number of args in 0 though, you could still unpack() surely |
| 23:52.40 | Pneumatus | as unpack() starts at 1 |
| 23:52.43 | jnwhiteh | Pneumatus: no, not if there is a nil |
| 23:52.46 | jnwhiteh | that's the whole point =) |
| 23:52.50 | jnwhiteh | not if you want something that always works. |
| 23:52.58 | alestane | Pneumatus: As long as there were no nil returns followed by non-nil returns. |
| 23:54.02 | alestane | lua> unpack{(function() return 'a', nil, 6 end)()} |
| 23:54.03 | lua_bot | alestane: a, nil, 6 |
| 23:54.08 | Pneumatus | chances are though, if you're packing the args you probably aren't going to want them unpacked anyway and would just pairs()/ipairs() the table |
| 23:54.16 | alestane | Unfortunately that's not reliable. |
| 23:54.22 | jnwhiteh | again, you can't do that =) |
| 23:54.42 | dGrimes_ | Would it be helpful if I was to say what I wish to do by adding the return values into a table? |
| 23:54.49 | alestane | Probably, yes. |
| 23:54.50 | dGrimes_ | And when the table would be populated? |
| 23:55.27 | jnwhiteh | http://www.pastey.net/127133 |
| 23:55.33 | alestane | As a general rule, it's always easier to solve a problem when you know all the constraints. |
| 23:55.50 | dGrimes_ | GetSavedInstanceInfo(); would be the API call. The table will be wiped clean on the event of either a) zoning without being in a raid, or world load. |
| 23:57.03 | jnwhiteh | !api GetSavedIn |
| 23:57.04 | lua_bot | GetSavedInstanceInfo: Returns information on a specific instance to which the player is saved (http://wowprogramming.com/docs/api/GetSavedInstanceInfo) |
| 23:57.23 | jnwhiteh | if none of those are nil then your problem is easy =) |
| 23:57.52 | dGrimes_ | They can return nil, but I know which entries I wish to search for. |
| 23:58.05 | Shirik | (19:55:53) (foxlit) [18:33:54] a = b ? c++ : 1; |
| 23:58.15 | Shirik | That's defined in C? |
| 23:58.23 | Shirik | In C++ it's undefined |
| 23:58.23 | alestane | Shirik: Should be. |
| 23:58.25 | Shirik | c may be 0 or 1 |
| 23:58.51 | dGrimes_ | idlist = { GetSavedInstanceInfo(1) }; will return a table with 1-10 entries in it, the values of said entry might be nil though. |
| 23:58.54 | alestane | Depending on context, I missed the rest of the conversation. |
| 23:59.11 | jnwhiteh | dGrimes_: if any of them are nil, you can't ITERATE over them or use # |
| 23:59.18 | jnwhiteh | but you can just index them, in which case you're magically fine. |
| 23:59.20 | Shirik | I think most sane compilers will not execute the c++ |
| 23:59.23 | Shirik | but it's not guaranteed |
| 23:59.29 | alestane | dGrimes_: And why do you want these values in a table? |
