| 00:00.09 | *** join/#wowuidev chris_s (n=chris@c-69-142-35-23.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) |
| 00:00.10 | bleeter | yar you don't know what barker does |
| 00:00.10 | nevcairiel | bleeter: i believe advertising (automated or not) was forbidden in the ToU or ToS before that policy |
| 00:00.26 | Dagmar | bleeter: You already told me what it does |
| 00:00.26 | kmcguire | Oh, what is this excessive use of the chat system policy item? Does anyone have a good clue as to where that is leading to? |
| 00:00.52 | Dagmar | bleeter: I'm telling you the main problem with people posting offers to trade channel on a regular interval is that they regularly set that interval too low |
| 00:00.56 | bleeter | nevcairiel: so an addon knowing the cost of mats and doing the calculation price for an enchant, is automation? or doing that and pushing the info to /trade is automation? |
| 00:01.14 | bleeter | Dagmar: that's spam. don't confuse the two |
| 00:01.15 | Dagmar | Pushing it to /trade without being queried in some way is |
| 00:01.18 | nevcairiel | bleeter: any addon provides some form of automation, sure. but thats not the point |
| 00:01.56 | Dagmar | bleeter: One becomes the other when it's done too often |
| 00:02.14 | bleeter | that's the thing I'm saying, it's not permitted at all now |
| 00:02.50 | kmcguire | I dunno though because you know the trade channel is for announcements. So it would be hard to call it spam? |
| 00:03.04 | ZorbaTHut | they could just require that /1 or /2 chat lines require a hardware event |
| 00:03.07 | Dagmar | Only if you're confused about the meaning of the term "spam" |
| 00:03.18 | foxlit | ZorbaTHut: then we clearly /leave channels until trade is /3 :) |
| 00:03.30 | kmcguire | I will go look it up and make sure I understand the meaning of it before I talk anymore. |
| 00:03.35 | foxlit | I'm here all week; try the fish. |
| 00:03.36 | Dagmar | Let's revisit it's origins a monent |
| 00:03.37 | ZorbaTHut | foxlit, I meant "general" and "trade", obviously ;) |
| 00:03.37 | Dagmar | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8huXkSaL7o |
| 00:03.38 | bleeter | ZorbaTHut: well barker does have this bloody big 'BARK' button.. the advert's not automated, only the pricing calcs |
| 00:03.51 | bleeter | still. said BARK is advertising... using an addon... /shrug |
| 00:03.59 | *** join/#wowuidev Funkeh` (n=funk@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/Ace3/BigWigs/funkeh) |
| 00:04.19 | nevcairiel | You're not allowed to advertise without using an addon either |
| 00:04.26 | nevcairiel | and they didn't ban you before |
| 00:04.28 | Dagmar | As you watch the skit, perfectly normal people are having a perfectly normal conversation until the Vikings overdo it and flood the place with the spam song, bringing everything else to a halt |
| 00:04.50 | foxlit | Meh, the whole barker objection stems from a silly interpretation of "advertising". |
| 00:04.51 | Dagmar | It doesn't have to be a commercial announcement to be spam |
| 00:04.59 | Dagmar | All it has to do is get in the way of everything else |
| 00:05.01 | kmcguire | a disruptive, esp. commercial message posted on a computer network or sent as e-mail. |
| 00:05.10 | bleeter | foxlit: s/sillt interpretation/crap wording in the policy/ |
| 00:05.15 | foxlit | Perhaps. |
| 00:05.16 | bleeter | ... s/sillt/silly/ |
| 00:05.17 | kmcguire | Well, if its not disruptive to a large percentage of the users then it might not be spam. |
| 00:05.20 | foxlit | Probably both. |
| 00:05.21 | Dagmar | foxlit: I think barker was basically an edge case |
| 00:05.25 | Lopeppeppy | Policies are supposed to have wiggle room, bleeter. |
| 00:05.45 | bleeter | Lopeppeppy: the wiggle room is the opening line about legal action |
| 00:05.59 | foxlit | But there's a wide range of interpretations, and, obviously, if you pick one extreme, you aren't going to get a lot of meaning out of it. |
| 00:06.00 | Lopeppeppy | You say wiggle, I say jiggle... *gentle shrug* |
| 00:06.12 | Thrae | So, has Blizzard made it clear about what they're targetting with these changes? |
| 00:06.17 | bleeter | Thrae: lol |
| 00:06.21 | Lopeppeppy | Thrae, of course not. |
| 00:06.24 | nevcairiel | foxlit: everyone seems to pick the very dark extreme today |
| 00:06.34 | Dagmar | They probably won't say anything until Monday or Tuesday |
| 00:06.37 | Thrae | So why doesn't everyone just wait and see? |
| 00:06.39 | bleeter | if at all |
| 00:06.47 | bleeter | personally, I'm still waiting to hear about magelo |
| 00:06.48 | Lopeppeppy | Except for-fee addons, addons that violate the ToS in some way, or promote in game ads. |
| 00:06.54 | bleeter | which imo's far more serious than addons |
| 00:06.58 | Dagmar | I *strongly* suspect the legal team had a heavy hand in this, and those kinds of folks tend to not appreciate having their weekends interrupted with work |
| 00:07.00 | Shirik | magelo has always been illegal |
| 00:07.15 | bleeter | Shirik: I know that, you know that... where's the C&D? |
| 00:07.15 | Shirik | as I told you yesterday, bleeter |
| 00:07.22 | bleeter | well, we presume that |
| 00:07.39 | foxlit | it's really unfortunate, but I doubt Blizzard would actually have to do a lot to enforce this. |
| 00:07.43 | Dagmar | Doh. You're right. Magelo might have to stop serving WOW players |
| 00:07.48 | Dagmar | I had completely forgotten about them |
| 00:07.48 | Lopeppeppy | We're not Magelo, we will never know anything about C&D until it hits a courtroom. Don't assume that because you can't see it, it doesn't exist. |
| 00:07.50 | foxlit | WoWI/Curse/* will probably do all of that for them. |
| 00:08.03 | foxlit | (The fan site program and all) |
| 00:08.16 | nevcairiel | That was my guess as well, all the official fansites would just stop serving those addons |
| 00:08.27 | nevcairiel | and those addons just die a maybe slow death |
| 00:08.29 | nevcairiel | but a death |
| 00:08.32 | Lopeppeppy | Some already had, nevcairiel. |
| 00:08.35 | Shirik | then *gasp* WoWMatrix might actually have to HOST addons! |
| 00:08.44 | Dagmar | ONOES |
| 00:08.49 | foxlit | Shirik: oh no it doesn't! |
| 00:08.51 | ZorbaTHut | personally I don't get why wowmatrix even bothers to leech bandwidth |
| 00:08.56 | foxlit | Clearly the next step is the WoWMatrix p2p solution |
| 00:09.00 | ZorbaTHut | it seems like it'd be almost as easy to rig up bittorrent in it |
| 00:09.00 | Aznamir | Well, I still think it is all right to add a message somewhere on addon config page that says "Please visit www.blah-blah-blah.com for if you want to know how to help the development effort". |
| 00:09.06 | ZorbaTHut | and far less legally dubious |
| 00:09.07 | nevcairiel | ZorbaTHut: they make money of ads, and don#t pay bandwidth, win-win? |
| 00:09.13 | foxlit | "we pull this addon, which has a name similar to the one you wanted, from someone else's harddisk." |
| 00:09.17 | Dagmar | ZorbaTHut: Because of the pennies they're trying to get off those Google text ads |
| 00:09.22 | ZorbaTHut | if they did it via bittorrent, they still wouldn't be paying significant amounts of bandwidth :P |
| 00:09.30 | Dagmar | Either that or they're shipping a keylogger out to 1% of their users so no one notices right away |
| 00:10.01 | Dagmar | If they started shipping addons using a rarest-first cloud distribution protocol it would just be win |
| 00:10.10 | foxlit | chant after me: D-H-T! D-H-T! DHT! |
| 00:10.15 | Dagmar | It would be the _right_ solution to their problem of lack of bandwidth |
| 00:10.17 | foxlit | (someday, I should so figure out how *that* works) |
| 00:10.28 | nevcairiel | Did any major UI page actually did some real steps to stop Wowmatrix? Most arguments i heard where like "we don't want to start a cat and mouse game, so we monitor numbers and suck it up" |
| 00:10.36 | *** join/#wowuidev Thelyna (n=burp@122-57-249-52.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) |
| 00:10.37 | Dagmar | foxlit: JUst ask teh elves when they show up |
| 00:10.55 | Dagmar | Oh wait, that's DMT I'm thinking of |
| 00:11.18 | Mooninaut | foxlit: it's a hash algorithm in which internet hosts act as buckets |
| 00:11.20 | foxlit | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMT << that's a long disambig |
| 00:11.26 | bleeter | how the hell are you going to ban any particular HTTP client? |
| 00:11.33 | bleeter | btw, is US realmlist dead for others? |
| 00:11.36 | bleeter | ingame |
| 00:11.38 | Dagmar | There's lots of ways |
| 00:11.40 | Thrae | I really don't think Blizzard is going to do anything to simple donation requests. |
| 00:11.54 | Thrae | But it's fun to think they will! |
| 00:12.01 | Mooninaut | fun? |
| 00:12.04 | kmcguire | What is the name of the add-on that actually started this stuff? I heard something about carbonite. |
| 00:12.05 | nevcairiel | Thrae: as long as it doesnt appear in chat every 10 minutes |
| 00:12.21 | foxlit | kmcguire: you'll never find out what, if anything, caused this. |
| 00:12.23 | nevcairiel | kmcguire: we all assume it was carbonite, but noone knows |
| 00:12.23 | Lopeppeppy | Not for me, bleeter |
| 00:12.31 | Dagmar | You can, for instance, have the leading page carry a graphical element that sets a one-time-use cookie in the browser, and when the browser goes to the download link, forbid the download without the cookie being there |
| 00:12.33 | Thrae | nevcairiel: Right. I mean something just for the player. |
| 00:12.37 | bleeter | Lopeppeppy: hmmm thx mate |
| 00:13.13 | foxlit | Dagmar: of course, once you do that, I can write an HTTP client that would capture and use that cookie. |
| 00:13.18 | Jamash | but what about teh lynx usars? |
| 00:13.25 | Dagmar | foxlit: It's a cat and mouse game |
| 00:13.25 | Thrae | nevcairiel: Any addon that spams for any reason should be destroyed, and its author jailed. |
| 00:13.33 | nevcairiel | ad-supported carbonite was really evil though from what i heard, it showed a banner on screen when looting? |
| 00:13.41 | kmcguire | omg... |
| 00:13.41 | bleeter | Jamash: what about 'telnet x.x.x.x 80' |
| 00:13.42 | Dagmar | foxlit: The people who are short on bandwidth but need to ship a new binary each time you change tend to lose those |
| 00:13.51 | Jamash | bleeter:exactly! |
| 00:13.51 | foxlit | Indeed. And every step of that game breaks website usability for some monotonically increasing subset of ordinary users |
| 00:13.57 | Dagmar | ...if for no other reason than you make their addon look like crap because it breaks three times a week |
| 00:14.01 | kmcguire | jeez, I am not going to pay for something to take away the challenge of doing quests. |
| 00:14.14 | bleeter | Jamash: that's what I meant, one cant stop it. point seems lost on some /sigh ;) |
| 00:14.26 | Dagmar | foxlit: Setting cookies is something just about every website is already considering a requriement for the browser being tolerated man |
| 00:14.39 | Thrae | kmcguire: There's challenge and then there's tedium. Also a lot of people have friends of a higher level who you need to catch up with. |
| 00:14.45 | Jamash | first cookies, then javascript, then flash... |
| 00:14.45 | foxlit | Yeah, but it's trivial to bypass *that*. |
| 00:14.51 | Dagmar | Try disabling cookies entirely in your browser and just watch how many websites will carp about it |
| 00:14.54 | foxlit | Your next logical step is some javascript thing. |
| 00:15.09 | bleeter | it's just your usual tech arms race |
| 00:15.11 | Dagmar | foxlit: Yep. All you ahve to do is keep breaking their tool |
| 00:15.13 | bleeter | no one wins 'cept legals |
| 00:15.15 | nevcairiel | There is no way to win that game without hurting your joe-users |
| 00:15.23 | Thrae | Dagmar: Although most websites work with Firefox, NoScript breaks about 90% of the ones I visit. |
| 00:15.24 | Dagmar | You could use multiple methods, chosen at random even |
| 00:15.31 | nevcairiel | use captchas |
| 00:15.36 | ZorbaTHut | you don't really have to win it |
| 00:15.36 | nevcairiel | annoying as hell for users |
| 00:15.42 | nevcairiel | but very very hard for bots |
| 00:15.44 | Jamash | wowmatrix will end up embedding a tiny man in their client that will click on your buttons for you |
| 00:15.44 | ZorbaTHut | you just have to irritate the wowmatrix users sufficiently |
| 00:15.47 | Antiarc | I have to stop reading stuff about this |
| 00:15.53 | Dagmar | Jamash: Heh! |
| 00:16.04 | ZorbaTHut | one day you set up a simple javascript dealie on thepage |
| 00:16.10 | ZorbaTHut | wowmatrix breaks for a day or two |
| 00:16.12 | Thrae | Dagmar: Of the whitelisted sites, still 30% are broken by NoScript's general protection. |
| 00:16.15 | bleeter | nevcairiel: even captchas... did you see how 'successful' the Y! IM captcha usage was at protecting the network from bots? |
| 00:16.17 | nevcairiel | ZorbaTHut: all ui pages should team up to just break it one day =) |
| 00:16.20 | Lopeppeppy | NoScript rocks my world. |
| 00:16.28 | Antiarc | All the plebes with their massive entitlement complexes and no understanding of copyright law are going to give me an aneurysm. |
| 00:16.43 | Thrae | It just shows how many badly coded websites are out there. Or at least from what I visit. |
| 00:16.46 | ZorbaTHut | they fix it, and you disable the javascript dealie for a day such that it won't be run in a normal situation, but wowmatrix's blind code still runs it |
| 00:16.49 | ZorbaTHut | wowmatrix breaks again for a day |
| 00:17.00 | Dagmar | nevcariel: For maximum effectiveness you'd probably want to stagger that out so that there's alwys a sizeable chunk of packages that mysteriously won't update |
| 00:17.19 | ZorbaTHut | just tweak things every few days, and then start rigging it so that, for a small fraction of users, "broken" means "installs a UI mod that just suggests that the user no longer use wowmatrix" |
| 00:17.26 | ScytheBlade1 | ZorbaTHut: no one likes an arms race |
| 00:17.33 | Jamash | except arms dealers |
| 00:17.33 | Dagmar | Wrong. |
| 00:17.40 | ZorbaTHut | you can't permanently stop wowmatrix with a static solution. you *can* simply tweak things back and forth to make wowmatrix's life hell. |
| 00:17.41 | Dagmar | People who have a disadvantage don't like an arms race. |
| 00:17.42 | nevcairiel | bleeter: i wonder if the wowmatrix guys could really be bothered to add a captcha scanner in their client |
| 00:17.47 | ZorbaTHut | scythe, I'm not talking about an arms race. I'm talking about not standing still. |
| 00:17.49 | Dagmar | People who stand to win an arms race like them a LOT |
| 00:17.55 | ScytheBlade1 | Make your life a PITA too is the problem |
| 00:18.05 | ScytheBlade1 | ("your" is relative) |
| 00:18.05 | ZorbaTHut | you don't have to keep escalating, you just have to keep being a moving target. |
| 00:18.05 | Thrae | That reminds me of the man that tried to sue Google for the Google Robot deleting all his files by repeatedly running his own php script that deletes files during its scan of his site. |
| 00:18.13 | Jamash | hee hee |
| 00:18.18 | nevcairiel | lol |
| 00:18.36 | kmcguire | .. |
| 00:18.38 | Dagmar | Hmm... Novel approach |
| 00:18.43 | Jamash | that's pretty epic failure there |
| 00:18.49 | Dagmar | The last time Google deleted a bunch of my files, I just bitched at kormoc |
| 00:18.53 | nevcairiel | people sue for everything |
| 00:18.57 | nevcairiel | in the US at least |
| 00:18.57 | ZorbaTHut | and, if you pretend to be stupid, they'll assume you *are* stupid, and implement a solution that relies on stupidity. |
| 00:18.58 | foxlit | Be a moving target for long enough, and people will just lob cluster bombs at you. |
| 00:19.28 | Dagmar | foxlit: So you think WoWMatrix might partner with Rapidshare and make people download 100 plugins at a time then? |
| 00:19.35 | nevcairiel | lol |
| 00:19.45 | nevcairiel | thats your solution to cluster-bombign addonsß |
| 00:19.46 | nevcairiel | :D |
| 00:20.04 | Thrae | 100 addons could easily fit in a Compliation / Suite. |
| 00:20.12 | Dagmar | THat could have some fun side-effects, knowing what hell it wreaks on my gf when she blindly copies my addon directory to her machine and doesn't make sure to turn the new ones she doesn't use off |
| 00:20.44 | Dagmar | Bartender, Macaroon, and Dominos look GREAT when they all come up on the screen at once |
| 00:20.46 | Jamash | I tried to use my sister's computer once |
| 00:20.49 | Dagmar | ...and everyone wants three minimaps |
| 00:20.54 | foxlit | Dagmar: no, I think the logical result of this is to run a real browser in some off-screen desktop never seen by the user |
| 00:20.57 | Jamash | it locked out all input during an arena match |
| 00:20.59 | Antiarc | It amuses me to high hell that people who demand their addons be free come down on the addon authors for being "greedy" |
| 00:21.12 | Dagmar | foxlit: That's not very plausible, or doable actually |
| 00:21.15 | foxlit | Eventually, requests will (a) waste more bandwidth (b) be indistinguishable from random visitors. |
| 00:21.30 | ZorbaTHut | antiarc, I saw a hilarious comment - "Are you daft? People aren't complaining about the fact that he was asking for donations alone - it was that he was dishonest about where those "donations" were going. They weren't funding the addon at all, they were paying rent and buying groceries." |
| 00:21.39 | Antiarc | rofl |
| 00:21.41 | Antiarc | roooooofl. |
| 00:21.42 | Antiarc | wow. |
| 00:21.54 | Jamash | buh |
| 00:22.02 | Antiarc | I'm really just about ready to yank all my addons, because the entitlement complex is more disgusting than the UI policy. |
| 00:22.06 | Dezzimal | A hungry author is a bad author |
| 00:22.12 | Dagmar | Just because lunatics get behind a particular argument doesn't necessarily mean it's looney |
| 00:22.19 | Dagmar | ...although that argument is looney as hell |
| 00:22.20 | Thrae | Addons don't need food or water to survive. All they need are addon authors, who feed on user ratings. |
| 00:22.20 | nevcairiel | foxlit: they already send a random real user agent, nearly indistinguishable |
| 00:22.53 | Thrae | Addon authors, as you may not be aware, are not really people, but humanoid creatures that feed off of their own egotism. |
| 00:23.00 | foxlit | nevcairiel: yeah. At the moment, you can probably catch them by some minor implementation detail -- not requesting all of the inline content, ignoring cookies, not running javascript, and so on. |
| 00:23.07 | Jamash | man, I wish |
| 00:23.46 | nevcairiel | No i want pretzels too, damn you |
| 00:24.06 | nevcairiel | s/No/Now/ |
| 00:24.09 | kmcguire | Antiarc: Yeah, quite trying to sell junk. |
| 00:24.14 | kmcguire | *quit |
| 00:24.20 | foxlit | If those become an issue, it's a relatively complex (but nevertheless manageable) jump to embedding a real browser. |
| 00:24.41 | Antiarc | Funny thing is, my addons have always been free |
| 00:24.41 | kmcguire | Antiarc: Try to sell me something that is actually worth the money. |
| 00:24.43 | nevcairiel | Its relatively easy to embed a IE control, actually |
| 00:24.54 | Antiarc | kmcguire: Anything that people will pay for is worth the price. |
| 00:25.07 | Dagmar | this is to prevent addon makers from .nagging.; players into donating.[/quote] |
| 00:25.07 | Dagmar | So why didn't they say so? If they don't want annoying popups interfering with their players' gameplay, that's one thing. But the terms clearly ban ANY form of request in-game, even as simple as a "donate" button on the about screen.[/quote] |
| 00:25.07 | Dagmar | This is a [b][i]LIE[/i][/b]. Aside from the facts that there's no "clearly" to this and there's no "simple as a 'donate' button on the about screen" involved, the wording in the policy is rather specific: "Add-ons may not [b]solicit[/b] donations." and the word "solicit" has a specific meaning which is reiterated further with "Add-ons may not include [b]requests for[/b] donations." |
| 00:25.08 | Antiarc | Also, I'm not upset because I want to make money from my mods |
| 00:25.08 | kmcguire | See that kind of mentaility if bad. |
| 00:25.09 | bleeter | nevcairiel: what, like Launcher.exe whack? |
| 00:25.09 | Dagmar | [i]None[/i] of what's in the policy statement forbids an addon author putting information about where donations can be sent into an about box, but it does forbid them from popping up any nag-ware screens or any other [i]active[/i] form of requesting the user send them money. Ackis' libAboutPanel (for instance) shouldn't run afoul of the policy and I actually expect to see that elaborated upon by Blizzard early in the coming week just to put a stop t |
| 00:25.15 | Dagmar | damn mouse |
| 00:25.16 | nevcairiel | Antiarc: you should spin up the pirate bootybay again, free addons for all! |
| 00:25.23 | Antiarc | nevcairiel: Heh |
| 00:25.34 | Dagmar | I'm going to beat someone in desktop support come Monday |
| 00:25.37 | bleeter | nevcairiel: ever noticed how if FF is your default browser, Launcher opens IE for some links, and FF for others? |
| 00:25.39 | Antiarc | kmcguire: Uh, that's economics 101 |
| 00:25.46 | bleeter | nevcairiel: is that IE control being whack or Blizz? |
| 00:25.48 | Antiarc | If you're serious, please go take an economics course |
| 00:25.52 | Antiarc | If you're trolling, full marks |
| 00:25.52 | Shirik | bleeter: Blizz imo |
| 00:26.00 | nevcairiel | bleeter: i don't actually click the links in launcher =( |
| 00:26.02 | Dagmar | Roaming profiles has now taken to randomly changing my PuTTY settings |
| 00:26.07 | Shirik | they're probably not using the URL open call and are instead spawning a process opening IE |
| 00:26.13 | Thrae | nevcairiel: That's because the Launcher uses IE as its backend and sometimes opens them internally. |
| 00:26.15 | kmcguire | Antiarc: Well, if your ever somewhere around me and I screw you economicaly. I am going to laugh and shrug at you. |
| 00:26.28 | Antiarc | ...what. |
| 00:26.29 | kmcguire | So thats for explaing how _you_ play the game. |
| 00:26.36 | bleeter | Shirik: parental controls opens FF |
| 00:26.37 | foxlit | Shirik: or just letting the internal IE control handle the click |
| 00:26.42 | foxlit | the IE control, being IE, opens IE> |
| 00:26.43 | kmcguire | thanks, darn, can not type today |
| 00:26.54 | *** join/#wowuidev kagaro (n=kagaro@cpe-098-026-067-218.nc.res.rr.com) |
| 00:26.57 | foxlit | though that doesn't explain why FF opens for some links |
| 00:27.09 | bleeter | foxlit: the bug's been there since early 2.x trial exe's |
| 00:27.10 | Thrae | I learned how to break the Launcher by setting my privacy/security settings too high in IE ;) |
| 00:27.14 | foxlit | Perhaps parental controls is an https link |
| 00:27.16 | Antiarc | kmcguire: Protip: I don't, and never have sold any of my mods. Go nerdrage somewhere else. |
| 00:27.16 | bleeter | I reported it ages ago.. /shrug |
| 00:27.27 | nevcairiel | Hm you're right, clicking a news entry opens IE |
| 00:27.30 | bleeter | foxlit: hmmm https *maybe* but that's daft |
| 00:27.34 | Antiarc | What I'm pissed about is a) people like you with an entitlement complex, and b) Blizzard presuming to have distribution control over my property. |
| 00:28.02 | kmcguire | Antiarc: I was just showing you a point, lol. =P It is okay. I am not even mad. Just calm as can be. |
| 00:28.08 | Codayus | kmcguire: Among your many mistakes is the idea that selling a service or product that people value and appreciate is "screwing them economically". |
| 00:28.16 | bleeter | anyways, it's hilaroous waiting to see a 'protect your PC from trojans' News article in Launcher. |
| 00:28.20 | nevcairiel | I still say they cant/want to control how you distribute your addon, they just say once you sell it, they don't like you anymore |
| 00:28.22 | Antiarc | You didn't "show me a point", you just showed that you have no understanding of economics or copyright law. |
| 00:28.39 | kmcguire | Ok, I agree with you. |
| 00:29.17 | bleeter | kmcguire: that's OK, economists and lawyers don't either |
| 00:29.21 | bleeter | as a general rule of thumb |
| 00:29.24 | Thrae | Antiarc: Blizzard has always said they are free to ban whomever they want and ban whatever addons they want, and I don't really see anything wrong with that unless Blizzard makes stupid decisions. Then they're wrong, but not necessarily wrong overall. |
| 00:29.42 | Dezzimal | Legally theres nothing wrong with what they're doing. |
| 00:29.53 | Dezzimal | Morally though its a pretty big slap in the face. |
| 00:29.57 | Jamash | here's the problem: "failure to abide by them may result in measures up to and including taking formal legal action. " |
| 00:30.08 | bleeter | has anyone godwin'd the discussion yet? |
| 00:30.15 | Jamash | they're not threatening to ban my addon they're threatening to sue me |
| 00:30.15 | foxlit | bleeter: no, ha |
| 00:30.21 | foxlit | that's still up for grabs |
| 00:30.29 | bleeter | I JUST WANNA SAY |
| 00:30.33 | bleeter | ITS LIKE NAZI GERMANY |
| 00:30.37 | Dezzimal | No but by bringing up goodwin any attempt to invoke such rule is invalid for the next half hour. |
| 00:30.41 | bleeter | foxlit: :P |
| 00:30.44 | Kalroth | Antiarc is the Hitler of addon programmers, ADDONS JUST WANT TO BE FREE! |
| 00:30.46 | Jamash | ~lart bleeter |
| 00:30.46 | purl | takes out a seltzer bottle and sprays bleeter in the face. You know, one of those old-school seltzer bottles clowns have? Yeah those. Anyway, consider yourself spritzed |
| 00:30.48 | Antiarc | It's true. |
| 00:30.53 | Codayus | Thrae: The concern is that the new policy seems to be very different than their old "hey, we'll ban you if you really screw up" stuff. |
| 00:31.00 | Kalroth | oh, wrong way for the Godwin |
| 00:31.09 | Thrae | Jamash: That's probably there for legal action against the ISP and/or organizations which allow spamming of gold selling. |
| 00:31.10 | foxlit | bleeter: PERHAPS IF THE ALLIES DID NOT IMPOSE DRACONIAN RESTRICTIONS ON THE GERMANS, HITLER WOULDN'T HAVE RISEN TO POWER. |
| 00:31.19 | Corrodias | OH SNAP |
| 00:31.22 | Codayus | For reference, the old policy would be the "Malicious UI Modifications" paragraph here: |
| 00:31.22 | foxlit | on the other hand, that's a bit of a metaphor |
| 00:31.25 | Codayus | http://us.blizzard.com/support/article.xml?articleId=20224 |
| 00:31.54 | Jamash | so wait, you're saying that the people are going to rise up, depose Blizzard and run WoW themselves? |
| 00:32.06 | Thrae | Codayus: I still think it just targets real malicious contenders like gold selling spammers, which Blizzard has still yet to totally get under control. |
| 00:32.17 | Thrae | Jamash: They've already done that. |
| 00:32.51 | foxlit | Jamash: I'm officially saying that WE SHOULD INVADE WARHAMMER. |
| 00:32.56 | Kalroth | argh |
| 00:33.08 | bleeter | foxlit: WIT SOTRMTRUPAZ |
| 00:33.13 | Odlaw | i see a fail there... isn't warhammer already consolidating servers? |
| 00:33.28 | Kalroth | "LIZARD SUX, I CANT OBFUSKATE MY ADDONS SO ILL PLAY A SHITTIER GAME!" |
| 00:33.50 | Dagmar | Odlaw: They've already done it actually |
| 00:33.52 | nevcairiel | finally, Kalroth leaves |
| 00:33.52 | Thrae | Warhammer is a good example of where there is a market for gold selling and they get a lot of spamming but it's under control by various server and UI changes they've made. |
| 00:34.00 | Kalroth | nevcairiel: I was quoting :( |
| 00:34.06 | nevcairiel | sad :( |
| 00:34.22 | Kalroth | nevcairiel: There's those fance " characters that indicates when it happens! |
| 00:34.22 | Dagmar | Thrae: I wouldn't call being hit up by a spammer within 10 minutes of logging in "under control" |
| 00:34.39 | *** join/#wowuidev Funkeh`` (n=funk@host81-157-118-227.range81-157.btcentralplus.com) |
| 00:34.45 | nevcairiel | I haven't really seen alot spam on my wow realm |
| 00:34.53 | nevcairiel | granted i'm not in general or trade channels |
| 00:34.56 | Thrae | Dagmar: How long ago was this? None of my alts get spammed. |
| 00:35.03 | foxlit | It's trade and LFG that are hit more often |
| 00:35.06 | Dagmar | ABout a month ago actually |
| 00:35.15 | nevcairiel | But we used to have yelling or /say'ing at the banks or AH quite often |
| 00:35.19 | nevcairiel | but that stopped completly |
| 00:35.19 | foxlit | Less often, I get generic "Hello" tells, followed by "Would you like to buy some gold?" if/when I reply |
| 00:35.23 | Jamash | I see golspam in wow about once a day |
| 00:35.31 | Jamash | s/golspam/goldspam/ |
| 00:35.34 | nevcairiel | And whispers .. havent had those for ever |
| 00:35.35 | *** join/#wowuidev Funkeh`` (n=funk@81.157.118.227) |
| 00:35.53 | Thrae | It's definitely improved in WoW but it's still there. |
| 00:36.01 | foxlit | I'm guessing they started aggressively blocking whispers that contain the words buy/gold. |
| 00:36.23 | foxlit | (if the person you're whispering to hasn't talked to you) |
| 00:36.36 | Kalroth | I still get whispers 2-3 times a week; "hi friend, how are you, do you want to b-u-y some go-ld?" |
| 00:36.49 | bleeter | damn blizzard forum's broken black hearts, I can't post and rant against the company >< |
| 00:37.01 | Thrae | foxlit: Nah. I still get whispers with that keyword in them. But after they whisper me the account is usually deleted quickly after that. I think it's done by the spammer and not by Blizzard. |
| 00:37.36 | foxlit | Thrae: perhaps -- more bang for the buck compared to the trade channels -- you get to make sure that your message is at least read. |
| 00:37.37 | nevcairiel | maybe they try to be gone before someone can click report spam and thus mark the account =P |
| 00:37.42 | Thrae | Dagmar: I work closely with the community and your case seems more like an exception, just to note. However some servers are still being hit badly, but most are pretty stable. |
| 00:38.25 | Thrae | nevcairiel: Report Spam seems to report an entire account by the error message I get when the character is gone. It talks about the account not existing anymore. |
| 00:38.27 | bleeter | maybe they've got some system that sees the RTT jump so exits the char, deletes it, then picks up the next one |
| 00:38.27 | Kalroth | How is the gold bot related to the UI policy changes though? |
| 00:38.46 | ZorbaTHut | funny, apparently the blizzard forum server is named Tassadar |
| 00:38.47 | nevcairiel | Thrae: they can't exactly delete accounts |
| 00:39.08 | foxlit | Kalroth: because WE SHOULD INVADE WARHAMMER. |
| 00:39.15 | bleeter | Kalroth: I was arguing that we're not allowed to use an addon to advertise in /trade, such as Enchantrix Barker ;) :P |
| 00:39.23 | foxlit | (which is apparently handling gold spam/RMT through UI changes) |
| 00:39.25 | Kalroth | foxlit: I already caps lock replied to that :( |
| 00:39.27 | bleeter | but foxlit's reason is way far more sound |
| 00:39.57 | Kalroth | bleeter: What would that fix? :) |
| 00:40.15 | Thrae | I haven't felt the need to PvP for a while. I tried to PvP in WoW just for the gear...god I was in a fetal position after 15 minutes. |
| 00:40.15 | bleeter | Kalroth: which what? |
| 00:40.27 | foxlit | Kalroth: it's closer to the thread of conversation that got us here. |
| 00:40.37 | Thrae | Death Knights. Kill. Everything. |
| 00:40.47 | bleeter | foxlit: I think Kalroth's a troll sent to confuse and distract us |
| 00:40.52 | bleeter | I know I'm confused as hell now |
| 00:40.55 | Kalroth | Thrae: DKs are stupidly overpowered atm. |
| 00:41.00 | Kalroth | bleeter: Apparently I am too. :) |
| 00:41.06 | Thrae | Especially pre-80 where all the fun is |
| 00:41.06 | bleeter | Kalroth: :) |
| 00:41.08 | Kalroth | foxlit: bleeter is right though |
| 00:41.17 | foxlit | Kalroth: about what? :) |
| 00:41.23 | Thrae | It's fun to min/max while you level and not focus on 80 while blindly questing |
| 00:41.30 | Kalroth | foxlit: er, I'm not sure, but he's probably right |
| 00:42.06 | Kalroth | Thrae: Ah, I wouldn't know, I haven't tried one myself. I've only ever been on their recieving end. :) |
| 00:42.26 | bleeter | Thrae: Ive spent about 10 matches in 30-39 AB/WSG in past few days. Goddamn those leg enchant exploits are nasty. |
| 00:42.27 | Thrae | Kalroth: I'm talking about in general, not for DKs |
| 00:42.29 | sacarasc | /msg Kalroth Hi friend. How are you? Would you like to buy some copper today? |
| 00:42.39 | Kalroth | ~stab sacarasc |
| 00:42.40 | purl | ACTION runs at sacarasc with an origami Swiss Army knife, and inflicts a nasty paper cut. |
| 00:42.40 | bleeter | Thrae: and shoulder ench |
| 00:42.57 | Kalroth | Thrae: Oh, okay |
| 00:43.23 | Wobin | hehe gmail now has an 'undo send' option |
| 00:43.32 | bleeter | Thrae: I'm standing there in decent quest/world drop blues and greens @ 39, and I'm looking at a priest with 3k, and rogue with 4.5k HP WTF... forget it. <80 BG's are fail. cmon 3.1 ;) |
| 00:43.46 | Wobin | Thrae: I'm actually outdamaging the DKs I'm levelling with |
| 00:43.52 | Wobin | Thrae: As a SV hunter |
| 00:43.55 | Ackis | eh I can't see the wow forums anymore, can someone tell me the e-mail to QQ to the forum mods please? |
| 00:43.57 | Thrae | bleeter: Well I mean more like 60+ not that low |
| 00:44.02 | *** join/#wowuidev DWSR (n=doingwha@24.114.252.240) |
| 00:44.21 | Thrae | Wobin: Outdamaging and being effective in PvP are two separate issues |
| 00:44.23 | bleeter | Thrae: the thing to have would be a 59 DK with carrot, glove and spurs... PLUS those other enchs... |
| 00:44.32 | Wobin | Thrae: true, I'm not doing -any- pvp |
| 00:44.33 | bleeter | Thrae: no one could catch you and you'd be near unkillable lol |
| 00:44.45 | foxlit | until you meet a paladin |
| 00:44.48 | Lopeppeppy | Ackis, they just went down for me too. And I already forgot the email I used earlier to complain about my login issue. |
| 00:45.00 | Thrae | Holy Paladins are insanely annoying |
| 00:45.10 | Thrae | They never go down and are there to make you miserable |
| 00:45.11 | bleeter | foxlit: how is a pally on a non-epic gunna chase down a DK on an epic + all riding enchs? |
| 00:45.13 | DWSR | unless they're on your team. |
| 00:45.26 | foxlit | JoJ |
| 00:45.33 | Thrae | Holy Paladins on your team are there to make the other side miserable, but not help you at all |
| 00:45.43 | Wobin | Thrae: But even then, I was surprised, PVE, as a DK I was generally top of the damage charts, even as a tank, as a SV hunter, I'm beating everyone except those that outlevel me by more than 5 levels |
| 00:46.11 | DWSR | lol, I've rolled holy paladins as my Warlock |
| 00:46.15 | DWSR | It's actually really rediculous. |
| 00:46.23 | Thrae | Wobin: Well I min/max and I'm downing PvE mobs +5 levels on me in like 2 seconds |
| 00:46.36 | DWSR | SL/Felguard lock spec with only crafted+2 pieces of Savage and I rolled over a holy paladin that was in 50% hateful. |
| 00:46.53 | sacarasc | Thrae: Lucky you... Takes me at least 10 seconds. |
| 00:46.55 | Thrae | DWSR: I've rolled over Paladins and DKs that suck too |
| 00:46.56 | Wobin | foxlit: that's assuming they get it off in the 10 yard range =) |
| 00:47.08 | Thrae | sacarasc: Feral Druid |
| 00:47.20 | sacarasc | Same. Only level 14 though. |
| 00:47.30 | Thrae | Haha well level 14 yes it'll take a while |
| 00:47.31 | DWSR | Thrae: the bubble doesn't save you forever. |
| 00:48.25 | Thrae | DWSR: A well-geared and somewhat skilled Holy Paladin can have seemingly infinite mana while also having decent damage. But Paladins don't have a lot of anti-fear tactics. |
| 00:48.32 | DWSR | ding |
| 00:48.56 | DWSR | You can outlast them as SL/Felguard. Just have the Felguard to keep pressure on them. |
| 00:49.06 | DWSR | Then roll along with all your IC DoTs and LoS. |
| 00:49.08 | DWSR | Bang I win. |
| 00:49.16 | Thrae | Problem is those DKs can sniff a fight with a Holy Paladin from 100 yards away |
| 00:49.25 | bleeter | foxlit: joj is only 10 yards. if DK is 10.5 yards ahead no way gunna chase it down.. heck, can prolly get away at 7yards with 'good' latency :P |
| 00:49.25 | Wobin | W0mbl3fr0g |
| 00:49.40 | bleeter | Wobin: cheers mate |
| 00:49.42 | Thrae | Anyway, so that's why I play Warhammer Online |
| 00:50.37 | DWSR | Thrae: how is it? |
| 00:50.37 | foxlit | are we just talking about DKs that do nothing but ride around on their mount? :) |
| 00:50.37 | DWSR | I've been thinking about trying it |
| 00:50.37 | *** join/#wowuidev Funkeh` (n=funk@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/Ace3/BigWigs/funkeh) |
| 00:50.37 | Thrae | DWSR: If you put balance and PvP fun on a scale from 1 to 10 and compare WoW to WAR, the former gets 1 and WAR gets a 10. But really that's not saying much! The two just don't compare. |
| 00:50.37 | bleeter | foxlit: or are we talking about where all WoW play happens these days to the exclusion of all other, Arenas? |
| 00:50.38 | Ackis | Lopeppeppy: I'm just getting a big message saying "haha fuck you you're banned" :P |
| 00:50.58 | DWSR | Thrae: But there's not much PvE in WAR, is there? |
| 00:51.10 | foxlit | none of that at 59, fortunately :) |
| 00:51.45 | Thrae | DWSR: No, and the best gear is from PvP. But there's PvE in PvP. It's more mixed PvE/PvP so you don't have to defend all PvP objectives all the time. |
| 00:51.46 | Wobin | DWSR: true |
| 00:52.00 | Wobin | Did they finally fix the higher ranking PvP? |
| 00:52.03 | bleeter | foxlit: huh? so 39's can skirmish but 59's can't? I don't like arenas much so never actually tried skirmish @ 59 |
| 00:52.10 | Wobin | I vaugely recall there being issues |
| 00:52.12 | Thrae | Wobin: In WAR or WoW? |
| 00:52.13 | Wobin | WAR |
| 00:52.20 | foxlit | meh, skirmish arenas are pointless. |
| 00:52.21 | DWSR | I actually like arenas in WoW. |
| 00:52.25 | foxlit | You gain *nothing*. :) |
| 00:52.26 | DWSR | Pretty fun |
| 00:52.31 | Lopeppeppy | Ackis darlin', can't help you with that. |
| 00:52.42 | foxlit | (even the 59 battlegrounds at least reward honor) |
| 00:52.46 | Thrae | Wobin: There's some debate on that. I say the new Influence system is a huge step up, but there are still some issues when you have 200+ players all in the same area. I guess that's really to be expected... |
| 00:53.05 | Wobin | Thrae: true that, world PvP will always have its inherant issues |
| 00:53.16 | bleeter | foxlit: i dunno, i'm bored with /duel'ling others from my realm.. so.. a bit of 2v2 skirmish on the way up |
| 00:53.19 | foxlit | But anyhow, I don't have a point, and I can no longer recall why I'm arguing :) |
| 00:53.23 | bleeter | foxlit: get used to some of the other racials |
| 00:53.35 | bleeter | foxlit: that's ok I don't think I do either :P |
| 00:53.48 | Thrae | Wobin: The thing is, I think WAR handles it a hell of a lot better then WoW does, and the Scenarios really help too (heavily balanced 10vs10 to 40vs40 fights). |
| 00:53.55 | Wobin | Oh definitely |
| 00:54.09 | Wobin | there's no comparison |
| 00:54.11 | Wobin | at all |
| 00:54.23 | Ackis | Lopeppeppy: I knows :P that's why I wanted the e-mail since I can't view the forums even now :P for the few times I actually need to read a sticky |
| 00:54.24 | Wobin | I'd've played WAR more, if I enjoyed the PvP more |
| 00:54.42 | Thrae | Wobin: But now with the new influence system Scenarios just give RP and not the new Open RvR Influence (gained from X vs X battles out in the wild). |
| 00:54.52 | Thrae | Yeah you definitely need a taste for PvP to do WAR. Which is what I'm saying. |
| 00:55.13 | Wobin | hehe what about the crafting? |
| 00:55.14 | Thrae | I can give anyone a 10-day trial that wants to try it, but if they don't like the PvP system, then don't bother. |
| 00:55.31 | DWSR | Thrae: I might try it |
| 00:55.39 | Wobin | I think it was the crafting that put me off in the end |
| 00:55.41 | DWSR | but I gotta ask |
| 00:55.45 | Wobin | the PvP wasn't enough to keep me there |
| 00:55.47 | DWSR | Does the game look better than WoW? |
| 00:55.56 | Wobin | It's a lot grittier than WoW |
| 00:56.03 | Wobin | it's halfway between WoW and AoC |
| 00:56.08 | DWSR | Never played AoC |
| 00:56.28 | Thrae | Wobin: Crafting just got a MAJOR overhaul where some skills were shifted around (like Scavenging no longer gives both Apoc. and Talisman reagants. One gathering skill per one crafting skill now), but the items were greatly improved |
| 00:56.59 | Wobin | Good. The interdependance was a good concept |
| 00:57.04 | Wobin | but ultimately failed by the AH system |
| 00:57.38 | Thrae | DWSR: Basically it's a grittier version of WoW as WoW itself is a slightly cartoonish version of Warhammer. |
| 00:58.06 | Wobin | DWSR: have you ever played Warhammer? |
| 00:58.14 | Wobin | as in the strategy game |
| 00:58.25 | Thrae | DWSR: It's a lot darker and you generally get the feeling of the world being at war, somewhat like Northrend in WotLK. |
| 00:58.40 | Wobin | Thrae: moreso, in my opinion |
| 00:58.59 | Wobin | Even the major cities are in a constant state of war |
| 00:59.10 | Wobin | none of this "Oh, old Marla needs to go to the well to get water" |
| 00:59.14 | *** part/#wowuidev kagaro (n=kagaro@cpe-098-026-067-218.nc.res.rr.com) |
| 00:59.17 | Wobin | or peaceful abbeys and the like |
| 00:59.30 | Thrae | Yeah that's always cool in Warhammer -- the thought your capital city might go under enemy influence. |
| 00:59.55 | Thrae | Unlike WoW, your actions and the actions of your friends change the world state. |
| 01:00.19 | Dagmar | Because Wintergrasp never changes hands |
| 01:00.26 | bleeter | WTB: Rebellious RP PvP WoW server so I can stab friends and wrynn and stuffs |
| 01:00.33 | Thrae | I thought WoW had a cool thing going with AQ and such, but they decided not to pursue that model any further |
| 01:00.38 | Wobin | Dagmar: all that affects is a single buff and access to a dungeon =P |
| 01:00.49 | bleeter | Wobin: and a couple of vendors |
| 01:00.55 | Wobin | WAR has much more farreaching consequences |
| 01:01.03 | Thrae | Dagmar: Yeah; that's like old-school DAoC |
| 01:01.04 | Dagmar | Wobin: Good for it. |
| 01:01.10 | AbsolutRayne | I love how a stack of Arcane Dust is double the price of a Stack of Infinite Dust on my server |
| 01:01.12 | Dagmar | Maybe it'll let them attract some players |
| 01:01.18 | Wobin | It does =) |
| 01:01.27 | Wobin | I mean, I'm one of the worst PVP players out there |
| 01:01.32 | Dagmar | So, they still working on breaking 200,000? |
| 01:01.34 | Wobin | but I enjoyed the change while I played it |
| 01:01.47 | Wobin | It's not out there to be a WoW "breaker" |
| 01:01.54 | Wobin | I'm not sure anything can be |
| 01:01.56 | Thrae | DWSR: Anyway if you want the trial just message me an email address to send it to. |
| 01:02.04 | Wobin | but it's an interesting change of pace |
| 01:02.27 | Dagmar | The high elven wizards first two attacks are a nasty look, and rainbows |
| 01:02.33 | Thrae | Wobin: Yeah; even Mythic themselves said they don't consider themselves competing against WoW. |
| 01:02.33 | Dagmar | That was enough to sum it up for me |
| 01:02.43 | Wobin | heheh |
| 01:02.48 | Lopeppeppy | Rainbows and sparklies! |
| 01:02.53 | Wobin | So true |
| 01:02.56 | Wobin | who plays high elves anyway? |
| 01:02.59 | Wobin | Pansies =P |
| 01:02.59 | Dagmar | I did |
| 01:03.14 | Wobin | I bet your first wow toon was a NIGHT ELF HUNTER =) |
| 01:03.16 | Dagmar | Let me heal AND nuke? Hells yes |
| 01:03.20 | Kalroth | lol |
| 01:03.35 | Dagmar | ...but a staff that fires rainbows? |
| 01:03.36 | Kalroth | Orcs where it's at, Wobin! |
| 01:03.37 | Lopeppeppy | Nelfs. *giggle* |
| 01:04.00 | foxlit | peppy: is that phrase from anywhere? |
| 01:04.00 | Wobin | I like the goblin's powerset |
| 01:04.10 | Wobin | foxlit: only if you add in "*bouncebounce*" |
| 01:04.15 | Thrae | My first WoW toon was a Druid back in the 1.x days and my first real main (after jumping servers a few times to find a good guild) was a Feral Druid pre-1.5. Ahhh those were the days. |
| 01:04.27 | Thrae | Pity abounded me. |
| 01:04.37 | Lopeppeppy | Nelfs? |
| 01:04.46 | Lopeppeppy | I hear night elves called that all the time, dunno where it started from. |
| 01:05.07 | foxlit | no, Rainbows and sparklies! |
| 01:06.00 | Dagmar | foxlit: I kept waiting to see a level-up message saying my newest attack was "A good talking-to" |
| 01:06.06 | Dagmar | ...which would of course be a DoT |
| 01:06.27 | Dagmar | ...that you have to channel |
| 01:06.37 | Thrae | Dagmar: Discussion Over Time |
| 01:07.19 | Wobin | And the upgrade: Stern Discussion Over Time |
| 01:07.33 | Jamash | which can crit |
| 01:07.56 | Iriel | The crit being "An especially good point" ? |
| 01:08.02 | Wobin | I quite liked the spell mechanics they used though |
| 01:08.10 | Dagmar | I would think critical attacks would be the norm for such an attac k |
| 01:08.11 | Iriel | And a "brief remorse" debuff, that has no effect and lasts about 3 seconds? |
| 01:08.25 | Wobin | the heal/nuke balance was interesting, and the burnout for the mages was cool |
| 01:09.08 | Wobin | Sorry |
| 01:09.12 | Wobin | "is" cool =P |
| 01:10.13 | nevcairiel | man those people posting in the author strike thread are only morons, most of them anyway |
| 01:10.34 | nevcairiel | i mean what did i expect, its the blizz forums |
| 01:10.53 | Dagmar | Exactly |
| 01:11.13 | Dagmar | Could we get a Nobel for developing a system by which forum posters can hunt down other forum posters and kill them? |
| 01:11.27 | Kalroth | nevcairiel: I think the thread contains a lot of intelligent and well-written complaints! |
| 01:11.28 | Lopeppeppy | Maybe, Dagmar. The Nobel Blood Bath Prize? |
| 01:11.48 | nevcairiel | That one guy was particularly dump, asking another author for a list of stuff he wrote, then accusing him for advertising his addons after he posted the list |
| 01:11.50 | nevcairiel | brilliant! |
| 01:12.03 | Dagmar | It's the Nobel Peace Prize, and it could conceivably be awarded for extinguishing large numbers of horrible people |
| 01:12.17 | Lopeppeppy | Peace through viloence? |
| 01:12.25 | Lopeppeppy | Yeah, I can spell. *yawn* |
| 01:12.46 | DWSR | Lopeppeppy: Sure. Why not? |
| 01:12.57 | DWSR | No one said the means had to be peaceful. Just the end result. |
| 01:13.16 | DWSR | All the forum trolls in one place? |
| 01:13.18 | Lopeppeppy | Global Thermonuclear Detonation. |
| 01:13.23 | DWSR | Just innundate the house with C4. |
| 01:13.32 | DWSR | And make sure no one's in the adjacent buildings. |
| 01:13.43 | DWSR | Lopeppeppy: Too messy. |
| 01:13.48 | DWSR | Then who's goin to give out the award? |
| 01:15.12 | *** join/#wowuidev Funkeh` (n=funk@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/Ace3/BigWigs/funkeh) |
| 01:15.19 | *** join/#wowuidev Nargiddley (n=nargiddl@125-239-1-127.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) |
| 01:16.07 | Lopeppeppy | No one. But it will be very peaceful for the roaches and the twinkies. |
| 01:16.16 | *** join/#wowuidev Shadowed (n=outlaw@c-69-181-37-145.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
| 01:16.55 | *** join/#wowuidev Funkeh`` (n=funk@81.157.240.237) |
| 01:23.50 | Shirik | Hm |
| 01:24.23 | Shirik | So I just installed carbonite 2.02 accidentally recently, and bothered to poke it in game. Its ETA seems.... very screwed |
| 01:24.37 | nevcairiel | ETA? |
| 01:24.43 | Shirik | Estimated time of arrival? |
| 01:24.49 | nevcairiel | i know what it means |
| 01:24.55 | nevcairiel | but how does it relate to that addon now? |
| 01:24.58 | Shirik | Like it says "100 yds, 30 sec" |
| 01:25.19 | Shirik | Apparently if you're pointed at your destination, it always assumes you're running directly AT your destination |
| 01:25.40 | Shirik | So you can be strafing it and it will just stay at the same number forever |
| 01:25.48 | nevcairiel | heh |
| 01:26.00 | Shirik | But if you slow down, it adapts, so... it obviously is tracking your movement |
| 01:26.02 | nevcairiel | TomTom calcs your speed into that, much better |
| 01:26.14 | Shirik | yeah TomTom does it correctly |
| 01:26.48 | Dagmar | It's *stalking* you, not tracking you. |
| 01:28.17 | Dagmar | Shirik: It's just calculating an estimated time of arrival based on how much closer you've gotten to the target in the last x samples |
| 01:28.23 | Shirik | No it's not |
| 01:28.32 | Shirik | because if it was doing that, it would say I have infinite time to destination |
| 01:28.32 | Dagmar | THen they broke it somehow then |
| 01:28.40 | Shirik | I can go away from it and it will tell me the same time |
| 01:28.57 | Dagmar | You have to be getting closer before it'll bother trying to update |
| 01:28.58 | DWSR | I dunno what the difference is in logic between TomTom and Carbonite, but TT > Carbonite for tracking that stuff. Carbonite doesn't update the way you're facing until you move. |
| 01:29.02 | Shirik | It makes the assumption that I'm going in the direction I'm facing, which is incorrect |
| 01:29.08 | Shirik | that's the problem |
| 01:29.22 | DWSR | Shirik: Just download QH + TT |
| 01:29.26 | DWSR | Works much better than Carbonite. |
| 01:29.27 | Dagmar | So file a bug report with them |
| 01:29.29 | Shirik | I have no need for Carbonite or QH |
| 01:29.31 | AbsolutRayne | I wish there was a way to turn off Weapon Enchant glows |
| 01:29.33 | AbsolutRayne | :( |
| 01:29.38 | Shirik | I have it only because I was testing the updater, nothing more |
| 01:29.46 | nevcairiel | AbsolutRayne: there is, don't enchant it :D |
| 01:30.14 | AbsolutRayne | nevcairiel: But my deeps! :( |
| 01:30.26 | nevcairiel | deeps is such a horrible word |
| 01:30.49 | Dagmar | "briney" isn't so great either |
| 01:30.49 | AbsolutRayne | Im a Rogue, currently a horrible class. It goes hand in hand. |
| 01:31.09 | Shirik | AbsolutRayne: "mah deeps" get it right |
| 01:31.59 | Lopeppeppy | Yes, if you're going to pretend to be brain dead, do it in a boston accent by all means. |
| 01:32.11 | Lopeppeppy | "You cahn't get thas deeps from heyah." |
| 01:32.14 | Shirik | ouch |
| 01:32.22 | Lopeppeppy | Although I think it would be ... deeahps |
| 01:32.24 | Shirik | I grew up in Framingham... |
| 01:32.38 | Lopeppeppy | Shirik, I lived in greater boston for 10 years, you catch me with the accent all the time. |
| 01:34.00 | AbsolutRayne | Iunno, I just think there should be an option in the Video menu to turn off Weapon Enchants |
| 01:34.15 | Shirik | why |
| 01:34.26 | bleeter | AbsolutRayne: not until firey and crusader start bloody working on cookie's rolling pins |
| 01:34.32 | Dagmar | Personally, I'd rather be able to enchant fishing poles or fish |
| 01:34.42 | bleeter | enchanting fish ++ |
| 01:34.49 | foxlit | enchanting fishing poles ++ |
| 01:35.10 | foxlit | (+1 to random suffixes for fish -- "33 Pound Catfish of the Whale") |
| 01:35.26 | nevcairiel | haha, an offhand fish with stats |
| 01:35.32 | nevcairiel | that would be awesome |
| 01:35.41 | Dagmar | With Firey on it |
| 01:35.51 | bleeter | nevcairiel: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34486 |
| 01:35.53 | *** join/#wowuidev ajmitch (n=ajmitch@172.41.255.123.static.snap.net.nz) |
| 01:35.55 | foxlit | (some offhand fish already have stats) |
| 01:35.57 | bleeter | ain't tried enchanting it |
| 01:36.08 | foxlit | can't enchant offhands, anyway |
| 01:36.12 | foxlit | just shields. |
| 01:36.13 | nevcairiel | someone should suggest that to blizzard, an epic fishable offhand fish |
| 01:36.22 | Shirik | ... |
| 01:36.27 | Shirik | I will hurt you |
| 01:36.39 | bleeter | I wanted a 2h hammerhead shark weapon |
| 01:36.39 | nevcairiel | bring it on! |
| 01:36.44 | bleeter | s/wanted/Suggested/ |
| 01:38.50 | AbsolutRayne | Who else plays a Rogue? |
| 01:39.01 | Jamash | just you |
| 01:39.12 | AbsolutRayne | Peppy does i believe |
| 01:39.26 | Shirik | If by "play a rogue" you mean "get played by them |
| 01:39.28 | Shirik | then yes |
| 01:39.32 | nevcairiel | lol |
| 01:39.40 | nevcairiel | poor Shirik |
| 01:39.55 | Shirik | I have 950 resilience, and there's a rogue in guild that can destroy me before I break out of cheap shot |
| 01:40.05 | bleeter | if 'plays a rogue' mean 'occasionally log the 35 in, stand around looking all confused coz there's stealth but no healing or pewpewlazorchickens.. then logs'.. sure! |
| 01:40.07 | foxlit | wtb starcraft bot API |
| 01:40.10 | nevcairiel | and peopel say rogues are bad |
| 01:40.22 | Shirik | no this one is very good, I'll give him that |
| 01:40.23 | foxlit | I mean, that's ONE game that they could make it work for them in. |
| 01:40.25 | Dagmar | That would be because they';re right |
| 01:40.27 | Shirik | most are bad |
| 01:40.41 | foxlit | (not that the built-in one is bad -- beats me :( ) |
| 01:40.55 | foxlit | (and by starcraft, I obviously mean starcraft 2) |
| 01:41.03 | *** join/#wowuidev Funkeh` (n=funk@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/Ace3/BigWigs/funkeh) |
| 01:41.13 | nevcairiel | the RTS AI can always beat you, because it can simply control every unit at once |
| 01:41.33 | foxlit | You could design something that does not do that :) |
| 01:42.02 | foxlit | Limit it to some sane amount of actions / second, probably proportional to what the player is doing |
| 01:42.04 | nevcairiel | In most games on "hard" the enemy just rushes you really really fast |
| 01:42.10 | Jamash | nevcariel: only if it's good at controlling them all at once |
| 01:42.44 | Jamash | bad omnipresent AI is still bad |
| 01:42.45 | *** part/#wowuidev foxlit (n=foxlit@0x573e6bae.alb2nxx18.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk) |
| 01:42.51 | *** join/#wowuidev foxlit (n=foxlit@0x573e6bae.alb2nxx18.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk) |
| 01:42.51 | *** part/#wowuidev foxlit (n=foxlit@0x573e6bae.alb2nxx18.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk) |
| 01:43.09 | AbsolutRayne | ... |
| 01:43.19 | *** join/#wowuidev foxlit (n=foxlit@87.62.107.174) |
| 01:44.05 | Lopeppeppy | Peppy is a rogue, I took her to 70. But my raid group needed healers, so I raided with my paladin. |
| 01:44.07 | Lopeppeppy | I miss my Peppy. |
| 01:44.33 | Dagmar | Next time stock more bandages |
| 01:45.01 | Shirik | oh! |
| 01:45.09 | Shirik | Pandora now allows you to "Add variety" |
| 01:45.10 | Shirik | nice |
| 01:46.28 | Lopeppeppy | Pandora has... always had that.... |
| 01:46.34 | Lopeppeppy | I use it at work all the time. |
| 01:50.20 | Corrodias | doesn't sound familiar. what does it do, "add variety"? |
| 01:50.33 | Corrodias | and how do you access it? |
| 01:50.43 | Lopeppeppy | You make a channel based on a single song. Add variety adds other songs to the channel seed. |
| 01:51.19 | Lopeppeppy | There's an arrow next to the channel name, click it for options. |
| 01:52.11 | Corrodias | i'm familiar with that menu, but i don't remember THAT option |
| 01:52.17 | Corrodias | i haven't used pandora in like a year |
| 01:52.24 | Corrodias | so either it's new or i've forgotten about it. |
| 01:52.30 | Lopeppeppy | I've used it for about... 8 months? So it's not new-new. |
| 01:52.53 | DWSR | pandora is unavailable in canada |
| 01:52.54 | DWSR | fail |
| 01:53.14 | Lopeppeppy | That sucks. |
| 01:53.24 | DWSR | anyone got an SSH endpoint that I can use?\ |
| 01:53.28 | *** join/#wowuidev Funkeh`` (n=funk@host81-132-80-65.range81-132.btcentralplus.com) |
| 01:54.20 | *** join/#wowuidev Funkeh`` (n=funk@host81-132-80-65.range81-132.btcentralplus.com) |
| 01:55.09 | foxlit | Q: Why don't jokes work in octal? // A: Because 7 10 11. |
| 01:55.11 | Corrodias | SSH? nope, sorry |
| 01:55.27 | DWSR | foxlit: ahaha |
| 01:55.34 | kd3 | lol: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15864747934&pageNo=1&sid=1#1 |
| 01:55.37 | kd3 | fox; hahaha |
| 01:56.03 | nevcairiel | forum fail |
| 01:56.12 | foxlit | http://stackoverflow.com/questions/234075/programmer-jokes-whats-your-best-one is you feel like being sidetracked :) |
| 01:56.37 | Lopeppeppy | The forums suck today, ya. |
| 01:56.39 | Thrae | Anyone know if Mangle is suppose to increase Shred damage or not? |
| 01:57.36 | Kalroth | A SQL query goes into a bar, walks up to two tables and says, "Can I join you?" |
| 01:57.37 | Kalroth | hahah |
| 01:57.50 | foxlit | "A foo walks into a bar" |
| 01:57.57 | DWSR | lol |
| 01:58.04 | Corrodias | -.-; |
| 01:58.10 | Lopeppeppy | *snort* |
| 01:58.20 | Corrodias | Mangle and Shred... i used to know what those were >:/ |
| 01:58.23 | Antiarc | I prefer my mathematician jokes |
| 01:58.25 | Corrodias | describe them and i might know |
| 01:58.32 | Antiarc | Did you hear about the constipated mathematician? |
| 01:58.47 | Antiarc | He worked it out with a pencil. |
| 01:58.56 | Lopeppeppy | Antiarc! :P |
| 01:59.00 | Kalroth | haha |
| 01:59.00 | *** join/#wowuidev Spellshaper1 (n=Spellsha@HSI-KBW-085-216-104-053.hsi.kabelbw.de) |
| 01:59.11 | Antiarc | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:59.39 | Thrae | Ah wait yes it does. "Effects which increase Bleed damage also increase Shred's damage." |
| 02:00.46 | *** join/#wowuidev Funkeh`` (n=funk@host81-132-80-65.range81-132.btcentralplus.com) |
| 02:01.08 | Corrodias | i remember getting frustrated when i had 5 combo points and my previous dot wasn't done yet |
| 02:01.15 | Corrodias | lol crits. :( |
| 02:02.18 | DWSR | http://www0.us.ioccc.org/1990/westley.c <- nice |
| 02:02.24 | mikma | so, 2x Account Bind trinkets |
| 02:02.33 | *** join/#wowuidev Funkeh` (n=funk@host81-132-80-65.range81-132.btcentralplus.com) |
| 02:02.37 | mikma | will the 2% mana gain stack? |
| 02:04.17 | Shadowed | yes |
| 02:04.29 | Thunder_Child | fail "Failed to read file CREATURE\FROSTSABRE\PVPRIDINGFROSTSABRESADDLE.blp." |
| 02:05.03 | Thunder_Child | x2 now |
| 02:05.21 | Tekkub | so sad... |
| 02:05.23 | Tekkub | ....dle |
| 02:05.47 | Thunder_Child | x3 now |
| 02:05.57 | foxlit | DWSR: I'm having difficulty figuring out which punctuation I'm supposed to pronounce there |
| 02:06.01 | bleeter | so what if I were to create a nagware addon, but in the READMEFIRST or other legal mechanism, I include the instructions to remove said nagware and it's a requirement of my terms of use that said line's removed |
| 02:06.05 | bleeter | bah |
| 02:07.16 | Xinhuan | lol |
| 02:07.39 | foxlit | "Klingon function calls do not have parameters - they have arguments - and they ALWAYS WIN THEM." |
| 02:07.56 | Thunder_Child | lol |
| 02:08.01 | Xinhuan | you might as well have just forced the user to read your donation site as part of the terms of use |
| 02:08.32 | Etanol | hoy |
| 02:08.37 | Etanol | what's up? |
| 02:10.22 | Lopeppeppy | I have decided that I want a puppy |
| 02:11.07 | foxlit | "Program, noun: A magic spell cast upon a computer to enable it to turn input into error messages." |
| 02:11.16 | foxlit | Peppy: saw the puppy thread? |
| 02:11.41 | Lopeppeppy | Hmm? |
| 02:12.01 | foxlit | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15864256729&sid=1 |
| 02:12.17 | foxlit | "I hear little puppies barking. Yesss... barking faster now. Soon the barking will stop." |
| 02:13.15 | Lopeppeppy | Foxlit, if you give me nightmares, be prepared for some serious negative karma. |
| 02:13.45 | foxlit | My karma's final. |
| 02:13.53 | bleeter | mmm puppies |
| 02:14.06 | foxlit | (though I wonder about the semantics of using 's to mean is) |
| 02:14.19 | foxlit | (perhaps I needed a space in there) |
| 02:15.27 | *** join/#wowuidev Miyagui (i=miya@190.232.225.112) |
| 02:17.04 | *** join/#wowuidev Exawatt (n=chatzill@c-68-32-185-166.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) |
| 02:20.21 | kd3 | 's -> is is a normal contraction |
| 02:20.27 | bleeter | Iriel: http://www.myconfinedspace.com/?attachment_id=71402 |
| 02:20.36 | bleeter | ^^ others, too... nice image safe fer work n stuff |
| 02:20.59 | bleeter | Alien vs Predator Chess |
| 02:21.05 | kd3 | lol |
| 02:21.33 | Lopeppeppy | Very pretty, bleeter |
| 02:23.09 | Dagmar | I like their banner ads |
| 02:23.14 | Dagmar | http://www.thechroniccatnipcompany.com/ |
| 02:23.46 | *** join/#wowuidev JerekDain (n=JerekDai@71-82-124-81.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com) |
| 02:28.13 | *** join/#wowuidev Stew_a (n=Stewart@unafilliated/stewa/x-008753) |
| 02:29.39 | Stew_a | hey, can someone point me to some information about adding new chat types, like when you type /guild in the edit box the chat type becomes Guild: and its green etc. I've seen addons create custom types before but i don't have any around |
| 02:30.12 | kd3 | it's just a function of joining a new channel (/join somechannel) and then playing with the settings by messing with the config options at the top of the chat frame |
| 02:32.56 | *** join/#wowuidev tsukukinsei (n=tsukukin@cpe-76-171-157-38.socal.res.rr.com) |
| 02:33.26 | tsukukinsei | can anybody help me with an addon im trying to make? |
| 02:36.26 | mikma | yes, someone can |
| 02:36.45 | Stew_a | does anyone know which addon it was registered a /script chat type? |
| 02:37.10 | tsukukinsei | is ther any way to take more than one screenshot in a short period of time like a second or 2? |
| 02:37.16 | mikma | yes, someone does |
| 02:37.24 | tsukukinsei | without pressing a button twice that is |
| 02:37.42 | mikma | ~wowbible |
| 02:37.43 | purl | extra, extra, read all about it, wowbible is http://wowprogramming.com/docs |
| 02:37.54 | mikma | see if the function is protected |
| 02:38.12 | tsukukinsei | for screenshots? |
| 02:38.33 | Gnarfoz | http://wowprogramming.com/docs/api/Screenshot |
| 02:38.57 | tsukukinsei | theres the Screenshot(); command but i cant get it to fire twice |
| 02:39.34 | Lopeppeppy | Is it a keypress command? As in, you have to hit the button for each one? |
| 02:40.07 | tsukukinsei | nope im trying to call it on an event and i wat 2 screenshot even if her aare instant |
| 02:40.22 | Shirik | You mean TakeScreenshot()? |
| 02:40.27 | tsukukinsei | yep |
| 02:40.52 | tsukukinsei | or Screenshot() either one as long as it fires twice |
| 02:40.53 | Shirik | It doesn't require a hardware event, no |
| 02:41.04 | Shirik | why do you want twice |
| 02:41.06 | Gnarfoz | Shirik: wowprogramming lists Screenshot(), not TakeScreenshot() oO |
| 02:41.15 | Shirik | I've always used TakeScreenshot |
| 02:41.18 | Shirik | and I just confirmed that it exists |
| 02:41.20 | Lopeppeppy | Have you studied other screenshot addons to see how they do it? |
| 02:41.24 | Shirik | not usre what the difference is |
| 02:41.27 | Stew_a | TakeScreenshot() is a UI function defined in worldframe |
| 02:41.38 | tsukukinsei | im just calling it on an event like on an achievement it takes one screenshot but not two |
| 02:41.42 | Stew_a | TakeScreenshot() is just a wrapper for Screenshot() that makes the text on screen appear |
| 02:41.45 | kd3 | why two? |
| 02:42.07 | mikma | step 1) Screenshot() |
| 02:42.17 | mikma | step 2) create a timer, http://wowprogramming.com/misc/snippets/Minitimer |
| 02:42.30 | mikma | step 3) Screenshot() after timer expires |
| 02:42.41 | mikma | step 4) ??? Profit |
| 02:42.57 | tsukukinsei | Woot |
| 02:43.07 | tsukukinsei | i think thats what im looking for :) |
| 02:43.30 | Shirik | I'm still missing the "why" |
| 02:43.40 | DWSR | ^ |
| 02:43.43 | DWSR | why 2? |
| 02:43.45 | DWSR | Why not 1? |
| 02:43.50 | Lopeppeppy | Why not 2? |
| 02:43.59 | DWSR | overkill? |
| 02:44.06 | Lopeppeppy | I always took multiple screenshots for group boss kills, to be sure to get one that showed every player |
| 02:44.08 | tsukukinsei | cause im making an external program that will detect 2 new scrreen shots and respond to that |
| 02:44.22 | Lopeppeppy | Oh dear. Externals are bad juju. |
| 02:44.33 | mikma | mmmmmmojo |
| 02:44.41 | tsukukinsei | why bad? |
| 02:45.02 | mikma | usually they are meant for evil stuff |
| 02:45.10 | ScytheBlade1 | Well, in this case you may be fine |
| 02:45.21 | tsukukinsei | mines not evil just uber fun |
| 02:45.34 | Lopeppeppy | Most people say that about theirs. *gentle shrug* |
| 02:45.59 | Shirik | tsukukinsei: Do you want me to hurt you? |
| 02:46.02 | tsukukinsei | lol |
| 02:46.21 | tsukukinsei | its not gunna affect gameplay at all |
| 02:46.27 | Gnarfoz | it's ok as long as the interaction is that way, not the other way, probably :p |
| 02:46.44 | Shirik | Blizzard has explicitly stated no communication with external programs, period. |
| 02:46.45 | mikma | tsukukinsei: but shirik is always up for some bdsm |
| 02:47.08 | Lopeppeppy | Period |
| 02:47.10 | Gnarfoz | that's not communication, but I'm sure you disagree :D |
| 02:47.28 | Gnarfoz | s/,/ IMHO,/ |
| 02:47.35 | Lopeppeppy | Closed sandbox, Gnarfoz, NO sand in or out |
| 02:48.10 | Gnarfoz | sure, remove screenshots, then |
| 02:48.27 | Lopeppeppy | Are screenshots written immediately, or not until logout? |
| 02:48.32 | Gnarfoz | immediately |
| 02:48.38 | Lopeppeppy | Interesting. |
| 02:48.40 | bleeter | dunno if they're doing this, but an external program to look at mtime of the Screenshot folder so as to upload somewhere 'automagically' may be fine. |
| 02:48.45 | Gnarfoz | guess why he's trying to use them for it |
| 02:48.51 | Wobin | alas |
| 02:48.52 | Gnarfoz | bleeter: nononno |
| 02:48.56 | Wobin | watch him die was too much for us |
| 02:49.00 | Gnarfoz | bleeter: you'll get in trouble with Shirik if you say that! :p |
| 02:49.02 | Wobin | Gotta Go, however, wasn't |
| 02:49.25 | Gnarfoz | bleeter: or get bad analogies from peppy, not sure who'll be faster :> |
| 02:49.43 | Lopeppeppy | No pink sand, no purple sand, no polka dotted Gnarfoz sand. |
| 02:49.45 | mikma | wobin: alas means down in finnish =P |
| 02:49.51 | bleeter | I better remove the softlink from scrreenshots to my distributed filesystem then >< |
| 02:50.22 | Gnarfoz | bleeter: softlinks? now you're in trouble :O |
| 02:50.38 | mikma | wobin: "ei saatu bossia alas" = "we couldn't down the boss" (kill) |
| 02:50.41 | Lopeppeppy | Bad monkeys, no biscuit |
| 02:50.43 | bleeter | goddamn 15 bloody Screenshot folders no wonder I can never find any of the ones I take that I think I could enter a Blizz comp with |
| 02:52.46 | *** join/#wowuidev Aiiane1 (n=Aiiane@134.173.63.21) |
| 02:53.12 | bleeter | wtb: photo sharing site that lets me upload > 60fps |
| 02:53.26 | Gnarfoz | ... how... |
| 02:53.29 | Gnarfoz | do you measure that in fps? |
| 02:54.12 | bleeter | wut? |
| 02:54.19 | bleeter | same way you measure any upload rate |
| 02:54.20 | kd3 | each image is a frame... multiple frames per second... fps |
| 02:54.32 | bleeter | kd3++ |
| 02:55.00 | Gnarfoz | wut? oO |
| 02:55.07 | bleeter | FORTY TWO! |
| 02:55.22 | Gnarfoz | that doesn't make any sense at all, but this is saturday night so I'll just assume you're drunk :p |
| 02:55.27 | bleeter | no u |
| 02:55.33 | Lopeppeppy | bleeter is just weird all the time, like me. |
| 02:55.42 | bleeter | Lopeppeppy: nononono |
| 02:55.47 | bleeter | I'm normal, you're weird |
| 02:55.51 | bleeter | they are all just crazy |
| 02:56.27 | Lopeppeppy | Oh, I wish I'd known that in high school |
| 02:57.03 | bleeter | on the subject of crazy |
| 02:57.34 | Lopeppeppy | Why kick innocent hardware? |
| 02:57.45 | bleeter | sif h/w ever been innocent |
| 02:57.51 | bleeter | anyways |
| 02:57.59 | bleeter | aint you heard of 'percussive maintenance' |
| 02:58.09 | bleeter | sure, may not fix the issue but makes you feel betterer :D |
| 02:58.30 | ScytheBlade1 | Lopeppeppy: no hardware is innocent |
| 02:58.39 | Lopeppeppy | I only do percussive maintenance on things I'm sure won't respond to either coaxing or a sacrificial lamb. |
| 02:58.48 | Lopeppeppy | My computer works well if it gets enough blood. |
| 02:58.48 | bleeter | there's only one thing less innocent than hardware |
| 02:58.52 | bleeter | and he's on holidays |
| 02:59.17 | ScytheBlade1 | I'm not thinking even 4% right now. Santa? |
| 02:59.29 | bleeter | cide... doh |
| 02:59.46 | bleeter | ALL HIS FAULT EVEN WIN XP |
| 03:00.17 | bleeter | did anyone else notice |
| 03:00.20 | bleeter | new UI policy |
| 03:00.22 | bleeter | Cide afk |
| 03:00.27 | bleeter | huh? HUH?? REALLY!!! |
| 03:00.37 | Lopeppeppy | Cide didn't do it, Ladayne did. |
| 03:00.57 | bleeter | someone told me it was dolly shat done did it |
| 03:01.00 | bleeter | er |
| 03:01.01 | bleeter | what |
| 03:01.03 | bleeter | hahahaha |
| 03:01.22 | Lopeppeppy | Serious. Everything that goes wrong is Ladayne's fault, he's used to it. |
| 03:01.52 | *** join/#wowuidev Matrix110| (i=Matrix11@pD957DCDB.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 03:06.30 | bleeter | WTB: Dancing Furbolg Bear RP Shop! |
| 03:06.42 | Lopeppeppy | Which should sell cheese |
| 03:07.00 | bleeter | Lopeppeppy: I'm a bit over cheese shopts |
| 03:07.01 | ScytheBlade1 | bleeter: you need a personal script that blames random things |
| 03:07.02 | Lopeppeppy | No, the commies didn't steal the cheese. That was Lunessa |
| 03:07.14 | ScytheBlade1 | bleeter: ie, microsoft, apple, cide, the commies, dwarves, etc |
| 03:07.32 | ScytheBlade1 | See if you threw that into a random script |
| 03:07.34 | bleeter | write me one now |
| 03:07.38 | ScytheBlade1 | It could be entertaining! |
| 03:07.41 | bleeter | i'm waitinfg |
| 03:07.44 | ScytheBlade1 | lol |
| 03:07.45 | bleeter | well git on with it |
| 03:07.52 | ScytheBlade1 | I've had this migraine for just over a week |
| 03:07.53 | bleeter | only reason I don't ahve one is you ain't written it for me yet |
| 03:07.59 | ScytheBlade1 | So... no |
| 03:08.11 | ScytheBlade1 | Know who you should blame? |
| 03:08.15 | ScytheBlade1 | Obama |
| 03:08.16 | ScytheBlade1 | http://www.hulu.com/watch/63558/the-tonight-show-president-obama---full-interview |
| 03:08.28 | bleeter | actually |
| 03:08.32 | ScytheBlade1 | That was a really entertaining 25 minutes of my life |
| 03:08.41 | Lopeppeppy | Blame Canada |
| 03:08.47 | ScytheBlade1 | Ohh canada |
| 03:08.49 | ScytheBlade1 | Canada is good |
| 03:08.50 | ScytheBlade1 | brb pizza |
| 03:09.11 | bleeter | I blame the prick whose car ran into lilo |
| 03:09.19 | Lopeppeppy | Lilo what? |
| 03:09.53 | bleeter | Lopeppeppy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Levin |
| 03:10.20 | bleeter | mind you he should've been wearing a helmet so.. /sigh |
| 03:10.44 | bleeter | still.. hit n run... damn I've put myself into a downer |
| 03:10.46 | bleeter | ciao |
| 03:10.55 | Lopeppeppy | Even if he were, car on person is owie. |
| 03:16.24 | ScytheBlade1 | bleeter: heh, I actually taked with him over the phone. |
| 03:19.15 | Stew_a | ok does anyone know how i can create chattypes like satellite's /script without using sattelite? |
| 03:19.43 | ScytheBlade1 | Stew_a: use satellite. Creating your own chattype is PAIN. |
| 03:20.06 | Stew_a | but i don't want to embed satellite and sea :-( |
| 03:20.35 | ScytheBlade1 | There are (old-ish) docs on wowwiki if you really feel the need |
| 03:21.06 | Stew_a | http://www.wowwiki.com/Creating_your_own_chat_types <-- this? |
| 03:21.14 | ScytheBlade1 | Looks like |
| 03:21.26 | Stew_a | ta |
| 03:21.36 | Corrodias | cool |
| 03:23.34 | Lopeppeppy | Night night, loungies! |
| 03:23.38 | ScytheBlade1 | cya |
| 03:23.41 | Cairenn | night Lopeppeppy |
| 03:23.43 | Cairenn | sweet dreams |
| 03:23.49 | Lopeppeppy | You too, lady. |
| 03:23.51 | *** part/#wowuidev Lopeppeppy (n=Lopeppep@cpe-69-204-134-64.nycap.res.rr.com) |
| 03:35.09 | Exawatt | So the shit's really heading toward the fan with the new UI policy, huh? (Don't want to argue over content of policy, I can see it's invoking huge flamewars). |
| 03:36.50 | Cairenn | yeah, it's not good |
| 03:37.14 | Cairenn | it's polarizing the community, that's for sure |
| 03:37.31 | ScytheBlade1 | I have to say that this is not how I expected the /users/ to lash out |
| 03:38.29 | Corrodias | how are they doing it? |
| 03:38.43 | ScytheBlade1 | There are multiple threads on the US UI forums |
| 03:38.52 | ScytheBlade1 | "QUIT YOUR WHINING YOU TOOLS" directed at the authors |
| 03:39.19 | Exawatt | I'd just hate for it to build up and build up to another court battle like glider; Or for them to just shut addons off entirely. :-/ |
| 03:39.21 | Corrodias | i want to say that's unexpected, but it is wow players we're talking about |
| 03:39.31 | ScytheBlade1 | Multiple threads telling the authors that this does not matter in the least, and they should shut up and keep working on the addons |
| 03:39.32 | kd3 | that kinda caught me off guard, but I also expected it. the entitlement complex is strong with a lot of wow players |
| 03:40.08 | ScytheBlade1 | I was thinking of being proactive about all of this, but then I saw the piles and piles of users whining that the authors /actually care/ |
| 03:40.13 | Gnarfoz | am I missing something, or is the 'no donation nagging' the only part anyone actually has a problem with? |
| 03:40.29 | Shadowed | theres people that care about the whole thing in the eneral as far as I know |
| 03:40.34 | ScytheBlade1 | Gnarfoz: that is probably the only one thatwe universally dislike |
| 03:40.38 | kd3 | the 'addons must be free' and 'no donation clauses' are the primary points of contention |
| 03:40.43 | ScytheBlade1 | Gnarfoz: other points are more polaizing |
| 03:40.54 | kd3 | the other points, say "don't break the servers" we all agree with and aren't part of the issue |
| 03:41.06 | ScytheBlade1 | In any case, after reading all of these threads from users, I no longer care. Let the pricks lsoe their addons |
| 03:41.09 | Arrowmaster | going to laugh so hard when 3.1 comes out and nobody updates their addons and they all break |
| 03:41.18 | AnduinLothar | it's not that the rules are particularly evil, it's the fact that blizzard thiks they have the right to curtail author's freedom to profit from their time. |
| 03:41.44 | Corrodias | there's no way i would have played WoW as long as i did without great addons. they were half the fun. :| |
| 03:41.46 | AnduinLothar | i've never done anythign against the new policy and it still really bothers me. |
| 03:42.09 | kd3 | the same goes for me, someone who hasn't even written a mod... |
| 03:42.14 | ScytheBlade1 | Yeah, I think that the majority of authors have never charged for addons |
| 03:42.22 | ScytheBlade1 | But are /seriously/ pissed over some of these |
| 03:42.26 | ScytheBlade1 | yup, kd3, same |
| 03:42.42 | Gnarfoz | Arrowmaster: as if |
| 03:43.35 | AnduinLothar | like, i didn't WANT to profit from it, but now that you've forbidden it it makes me feel like I should have while i could and that blizzard thinks we dont deserve to be compensated, which is like an insult that devalues our contributions |
| 03:43.39 | Arrowmaster | i wonder what would happen if both curse and wowi disabled all downloads until the new policy was updated since the current wording could be interpreted to mean they arent allowed to make profit from the advertisements on the download pages either |
| 03:43.51 | Arrowmaster | now that would get some reaction from blizz |
| 03:44.05 | kmcguire | I was reading in the carbonite user comments.. Some guy was complaining that the add-on would literally make some type of display to the user asking them to buy the premium version which was set on some short interval timer routine. You guys know if this is true? |
| 03:44.21 | kd3 | the ads version? yah, probably |
| 03:44.22 | ScytheBlade1 | Arrowmaster: I debated doing something proactive with much less drastic results and hopefully a positive outcome (and then I read the user threads) |
| 03:44.23 | Gnarfoz | Arrowmaster: I sincerely doubt that that is its intended meaning |
| 03:44.24 | Arrowmaster | kmcguire: the carbonite ad version did |
| 03:44.44 | Gnarfoz | Arrowmaster: let alone that that would not be legally enforcable :D |
| 03:45.03 | Arrowmaster | Gnarfoz: thats the entire point, its broad on some things |
| 03:45.05 | Exawatt | I was wondering about that... how are they going to enforce this? |
| 03:45.09 | kmcguire | Yeah, it specifically said it was not talking about advertisements on webpages (just ingame). |
| 03:45.29 | Gnarfoz | well, it's legal babble, it'll always be broad |
| 03:45.42 | Arrowmaster | Exawatt: 3.1 will have the ability for them to block addons with a file updated everytime you start the game |
| 03:46.10 | kmcguire | As long as no one tries to push the envelope and somehow get all add-ons banned. Then we would be back to the days of memory patching and crap which ***really*** sucks on patch day. |
| 03:46.21 | Arrowmaster | kmcguire: no the first section could be interpreted to mean what i said |
| 03:46.21 | Exawatt | But I mean, what if I just changed the name each version? Hell, I could write a script to change the name in the TOC hourly. :? |
| 03:46.41 | ScytheBlade1 | I approve of Blizzard's goal. Having some hard and fast rules on what addons can and cannot (shouldn't) do, plus some failsafes is cool. If I was designing WoW, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want a third party throwing ads and extremely obtrusive "donate" buttons (ads...) at my users. |
| 03:46.46 | Dagmar | Exawatt: If they get to that point, I'm pretty sure they'll start handing out bans first |
| 03:47.06 | Corrodias | ScytheBlade1: even if the users are completely able to -not use- that addon? |
| 03:47.24 | Exawatt | Dagmar: Ban what? Me from using Notepad to write in LUA? |
| 03:47.29 | AnduinLothar | the blocking addon functionality wasn't designed to block intentionally bad addons. |
| 03:47.30 | Corrodias | you can't be annoyed at blizzard for things -you- install. well, maybe WoW players can. SANE people cannot. |
| 03:47.31 | krka | Exawatt: Lua is not an acronym. ^_^ |
| 03:47.33 | Dagmar | Exawatt: Ban users |
| 03:47.51 | Exawatt | @krka Forgot, sorry. :P |
| 03:47.52 | ScytheBlade1 | Corrodias: yes. I am 110% for the "not use" option - note that I don't agree with their "no charge!" policy |
| 03:48.06 | ScytheBlade1 | Corrodias: charge for users, but don't be a dick to them if they don't, in short. |
| 03:48.08 | Exawatt | @Dagmar How would they know? |
| 03:48.16 | Dagmar | Exawatt: Wardne |
| 03:48.19 | Dagmar | er Warden |
| 03:49.05 | ScytheBlade1 | Corrodias: in-game ads are bad. But I have no objection to addosn for charge. "Feel free to not use it" applies perfectly well |
| 03:49.06 | Exawatt | Changing a text file couldn't spark Warden, could it? I mean, changes could happen before the game even runs. |
| 03:49.09 | ScytheBlade1 | *addons |
| 03:49.17 | Arrowmaster | im fairly certain FuBar will break in 3.1 too without LibJostle-3.0 being updated for the player frame animation changes, i have no intention of fixing it with this current policy |
| 03:49.53 | Kraft | I hear that windows 7 requires that all software that runs on it must be free of charge, unless its made by microsoft. |
| 03:50.21 | Corrodias | :D |
| 03:50.36 | Exawatt | @Kraft I went to type "I really doubt that." and then went "Oh. I'm dumb." |
| 03:50.36 | Corrodias | well yes, people like blizzard ARE profiting from microsoft's hard API work |
| 03:50.40 | Dagmar | I hear that someday people will stop posting obviously false comparisons. |
| 03:51.10 | Dagmar | "My mommy always gave me free cookies so all cookies should be free!" |
| 03:51.12 | Corrodias | you hear wrong, boy~ |
| 03:51.13 | ScytheBlade1 | Exawatt: if it doesn't spark Warden, I'd be surprised. One of the ways that Glider allowed botters to talk with their users was by editing a text file which was read/written periodically. |
| 03:51.45 | Kraft | its a comparison |
| 03:51.48 | Kraft | so its not exact |
| 03:52.02 | Dagmar | Yeah, but it's still invalid. |
| 03:52.03 | Kraft | but you see my point |
| 03:52.36 | Corrodias | your mom saw my point |
| 03:52.43 | Kraft | :o |
| 03:53.00 | Dagmar | I seen an invalid point, rather like what's being used to troll up a forum thread into a complete screamfest |
| 03:53.00 | Tekkub | those fuckers |
| 03:53.07 | Tekkub | <--- just watched the end of BSG |
| 03:53.11 | Kraft | im not trying to troll |
| 03:53.18 | Dagmar | Tekkub: Not only did I miss it, but I forgot to set the PVR. |
| 03:53.24 | Exawatt | I'm still confused on how Warden would detect a change like that... I mean, I can edit the TOC manually for legitimate reasons on my own. If I set up a script to do it automatically, I don't see how it would know when it isn't running. |
| 03:53.24 | Dagmar | I'm pretty sure everyone's a damn cyclon tho |
| 03:53.25 | Kraft | im just drawing a comparison |
| 03:53.39 | Corrodias | your mom was a troll |
| 03:53.39 | Tekkub | so download it :P |
| 03:53.39 | Arrowmaster | Dagmar: torrent it |
| 03:53.47 | Dagmar | Arrowmaster: Actually, it'll reair next wek |
| 03:53.51 | Dagmar | s/wek/week/;. |
| 03:54.04 | Dagmar | I already set it to record that showing |
| 03:54.24 | Corrodias | make sure you see the advertisements |
| 03:54.34 | kmcguire | Although, seriously, I think this policy is for reasons other than stated. Which I know someone in here over the past day or two has already said this I am sure. It may not have anything directly to do with Blizzard not wanting someone to sell their add-on but rather some other unknown reason at this time. |
| 03:54.40 | Corrodias | it'd suck if you accidentally did the same thing as downloading it. :( |
| 03:55.04 | Dagmar | kmcguire: Yeah, I'm with you. I think there's some "known badness" they're not mentioning at the outset because it'll just give lamers ideas |
| 03:55.24 | kmcguire | Yeah, I totally agree. |
| 03:55.45 | Dagmar | Corrodias: Well, that whole network is about to get the middle finger from me if they go through with the retarded name change |
| 03:56.07 | Corrodias | what network is it? |
| 03:56.09 | Exawatt | @kmcguire I was just thinking about that. If they reduce the number of ads seen in-game, that might cause an increase in the price of ad spots they can sell. For instance, a text ad might not be worth as much when there is 5 other ads next to it. |
| 03:56.10 | Dagmar | SciFi |
| 03:56.20 | ScytheBlade1 | Dagmar: SYFY! |
| 03:56.27 | Dagmar | ScytheBlade1: HELLS NO |
| 03:56.31 | Corrodias | ah yeah, the one with the wrestling |
| 03:56.38 | Corrodias | i think they do need to change their name. what's it becoming? |
| 03:56.47 | Dagmar | Corrodias: I sent them some pretty heated emails about that when they started showing it |
| 03:56.55 | Dagmar | Corrodias: "Syfy" |
| 03:57.08 | Corrodias | what, really? that's not even good. :( |
| 03:57.09 | Dagmar | or... "We'd like to mock each and every one of you who is even remotely literate" |
| 03:57.13 | Arrowmaster | is it going to be Syfy or SyFy? |
| 03:57.14 | kmcguire | Exawatt: Well, I mean. I do not think there is a evil plan going on. I just think that Blizzard is actually up to something that should benefit all of it's users in a positive way. |
| 03:57.30 | Dagmar | Like kicking RMT people to the curb |
| 03:57.30 | Shirik | kmcguire, completely off topic, but how are you #SD# again? |
| 03:57.45 | ScytheBlade1 | #SD#? wtf? |
| 03:57.50 | kmcguire | What is #SD#? Is that my ship in TW? |
| 03:57.55 | Shirik | #Ship destroyed# |
| 03:58.09 | Thunder_Child | or lack there of |
| 03:58.10 | kmcguire | Oh, I made a script that wandering around all night.. then someone found me before I woke up. |
| 03:58.17 | kmcguire | wondering/wondered |
| 03:58.26 | Shirik | oh shit |
| 03:58.28 | Shirik | um |
| 03:58.32 | Dagmar | Gotta make sure to remove the witnesses |
| 03:58.32 | Arrowmaster | next time buy cloaking devices? |
| 03:58.34 | ScytheBlade1 | lol |
| 03:58.40 | Shirik | Searching for messages received since your last time on: |
| 03:58.40 | Shirik | Received from Deployed Fighters at 08:29:31 AM S.D. 03/21/21: |
| 03:58.47 | Shirik | > Your fighters DESTROYED starspectre's ship! |
| 03:58.51 | Shirik | >.> |
| 03:58.54 | Shirik | <.< |
| 03:59.07 | kmcguire | Yeah, I noticed someone killed him after he killed me? |
| 03:59.14 | Shirik | yeahhhhhh |
| 03:59.16 | Shirik | not intentional |
| 03:59.25 | kmcguire | Excellent, I was wanting revenge. =P |
| 03:59.40 | Arrowmaster | he is still in an imperial starship |
| 03:59.47 | Shirik | probably had spare funding |
| 03:59.57 | ScytheBlade1 | This is interesting |
| 03:59.58 | ScytheBlade1 | For playing your turns today, you receive 1 experience point(s). |
| 03:59.58 | ScytheBlade1 | and your alignment went up by 1 point(s). |
| 04:00.01 | ScytheBlade1 | I was dead. |
| 04:00.16 | Shirik | For playing your turns today, you receive 1 experience point(s). |
| 04:00.16 | Shirik | and your alignment went up by 0 point(s). |
| 04:00.16 | Shirik | You have already achieved the highest alignment! |
| 04:00.17 | Shirik | ^_^ |
| 04:00.20 | kmcguire | I know I have about 300k. My ship was a play ship I bought. |
| 04:00.28 | kmcguire | So it was not really a lose at all. |
| 04:00.46 | ScytheBlade1 | So I have no idea how to play this |
| 04:00.55 | ScytheBlade1 | Three assignments due monday (... end of spring break) |
| 04:00.58 | ScytheBlade1 | And an epic migraine |
| 04:01.01 | ScytheBlade1 | So what do I do? |
| 04:01.07 | ScytheBlade1 | .. crack open the TW manual! |
| 04:01.11 | Dagmar | Take a purple pill |
| 04:01.34 | AnduinLothar | viagra? |
| 04:01.40 | Dagmar | It might help |
| 04:01.45 | ScytheBlade1 | Yes well |
| 04:01.48 | Dagmar | Purple xanax is pretty useful too |
| 04:01.48 | AnduinLothar | that Would pull the blood away from your head... |
| 04:01.49 | ScytheBlade1 | So would offing myself |
| 04:02.20 | ScytheBlade1 | You recover 9583 of your turns. |
| 04:02.25 | Dagmar | Now that Mt. Dew is coming out with Horde and Alliance flavors, it's really only a matter of time before someone makes "Epic strength" aspirin |
| 04:02.54 | ScytheBlade1 | SHIRIK |
| 04:02.56 | ScytheBlade1 | TELL ME HOW TO PLAY |
| 04:03.03 | Shirik | Um |
| 04:03.12 | Shirik | Go trade stuff and make money for a while |
| 04:03.12 | ScytheBlade1 | Right now I'm in sector 1 |
| 04:03.21 | Shirik | ? lists commands |
| 04:03.23 | Corrodias | alliance tastes like self-righteous bullshit and horde tastes like rancid cow sweat |
| 04:03.32 | Shirik | buy stuff then sell it at another port for a higher price |
| 04:03.41 | ScytheBlade1 | Interesting concept |
| 04:03.45 | Shirik | Ports : Underwood Minor, Class 3 (SBB) |
| 04:03.48 | Shirik | You will see things like that |
| 04:03.58 | Shirik | That means "Selling, Buying, Buying" the 3 types of resources |
| 04:04.17 | ScytheBlade1 | hmmk |
| 04:04.29 | Dagmar | Considering that there's a pill for acid reflux that's advertised as "the little purple pill" I'm still trying to figure out why someone would jump at viagra as the interpretation |
| 04:04.36 | Shirik | for a while your best course of action is to make money and try to get a better ship |
| 04:04.52 | Shirik | At terra (sector 1) you can upgrade your number of cargo holds to help transport more goods at a time |
| 04:05.18 | Shirik | at the stardock (sector 3936, or just hit N, S) you have all your shipyards, hardware stores, etc. |
| 04:05.25 | Shirik | stardock also functions as an SSS port |
| 04:05.29 | Shirik | I mean BBB |
| 04:05.56 | ScytheBlade1 | Okay so question |
| 04:05.59 | Arrowmaster | find ports in sectors next to each other where both ports sell an item the other port is buying and just go back and forth between them for a while until one of them gets to 20% or so for max profit |
| 04:06.03 | ScytheBlade1 | How exactly do I explore the sector? |
| 04:06.15 | Shirik | What do you mean by "explore" |
| 04:06.19 | Shirik | You can go to it and view it |
| 04:06.19 | Arrowmaster | you enter it |
| 04:06.27 | Shirik | when you get money you can start to get scanners |
| 04:06.29 | ScytheBlade1 | Sector : 372 in uncharted space (unexplored). |
| 04:06.32 | Shirik | go into it |
| 04:06.41 | Shirik | and hope you don't blow up |
| 04:06.42 | ScytheBlade1 | Yeah I just was there! |
| 04:06.45 | Shirik | uh |
| 04:06.48 | Shirik | It disagrees |
| 04:06.57 | Arrowmaster | it will still be 'uncharted space' but it shouldnt say (unexplored) |
| 04:07.04 | Shirik | oh |
| 04:07.07 | Shirik | Did you just enter it? |
| 04:07.10 | ScytheBlade1 | Yes |
| 04:07.16 | Shirik | The info screen will say unexplored as you're entering |
| 04:07.17 | Shirik | Hit D |
| 04:07.19 | ScytheBlade1 | I just flew back to where I came from |
| 04:07.19 | Shirik | it shouldn't say it anymore |
| 04:08.26 | ScytheBlade1 | Okay, weird. The third time through the sectors they were explored |
| 04:08.35 | Shirik | Also, never tell me your position again |
| 04:08.40 | ScytheBlade1 | lol |
| 04:08.41 | kmcguire | lmao |
| 04:08.42 | ScytheBlade1 | Why? |
| 04:08.46 | ScytheBlade1 | I mean I can guess |
| 04:08.52 | Shirik | I was kind enough not to blow you up this time |
| 04:08.59 | Shirik | but suffice to say, my ship is slightly more powerful than yours |
| 04:09.03 | Shirik | and you're on the opposite faction |
| 04:09.09 | Arrowmaster | he is? |
| 04:09.13 | Shirik | It says "Annoyance" |
| 04:09.26 | cog|away | rofl |
| 04:09.31 | Arrowmaster | what did he do to lose alignment? |
| 04:09.38 | Shirik | ask him not me |
| 04:09.40 | ScytheBlade1 | cog|away: HELP MEH |
| 04:09.42 | cog|away | all this shit going on and i come back to you guys talking about TradeWars |
| 04:09.44 | cog|away | >< |
| 04:09.45 | Dagmar | Send three garbage scows armed with pellet guns after him |
| 04:10.43 | Arrowmaster | im still trying to catch up on the thread from when it doubled in size while i was sleeping |
| 04:10.51 | Shirik | I gave up |
| 04:10.54 | Shirik | I'm only reading the WoWI one |
| 04:11.07 | ScytheBlade1 | Arrowmaster: don't bother. Nothing will change, nothing is new, nothing wasn't already old 2 minutes after it was announced. |
| 04:11.30 | cog|away | yeah, that thread has about a 3-5 page period |
| 04:11.54 | ScytheBlade1 | Not even that much, imo |
| 04:12.54 | *** join/#wowuidev Kirov (n=Kirov@67.160.8.181) |
| 04:12.58 | ScytheBlade1 | cog|away: so |
| 04:13.04 | ScytheBlade1 | cog|away: about this classy telnet game that I fail at |
| 04:13.20 | ScytheBlade1 | cog|away: HELP ME, SHIRIK IS ALL THREATS |
| 04:13.40 | Shirik | nah, when cog|away logs on I tend to back off a bit |
| 04:13.43 | cog|away | he trying to drive you evil to join me? |
| 04:13.53 | cog|away | Shirik: for srs? |
| 04:13.55 | ScytheBlade1 | Evidently I already am? |
| 04:14.12 | *** join/#wowuidev norova (n=norova@c-98-215-162-117.hsd1.il.comcast.net) |
| 04:14.15 | cog|away | I think your perception of my own threat is exaggerated :P |
| 04:14.19 | Shirik | cog|away: I have no intention of being on the offensive until I have sufficient resources to protect myself |
| 04:14.26 | Shirik | that is, our base |
| 04:14.34 | Shirik | Even if I can destroy you, that's a waste of funding |
| 04:14.39 | ScytheBlade1 | cog|away: okay I'm going evil now just to spite Shirik some time down the road |
| 04:14.51 | Shirik | ScytheBlade1: Keep in mind if you do that, I have no reason to hold back |
| 04:15.05 | cog|away | yeah, youd have bigger guns on his side... |
| 04:15.09 | ScytheBlade1 | Shirik: I blew myself up once already, it isn't like you can do much worse |
| 04:15.12 | Shirik | rofl |
| 04:15.17 | Shirik | cog|away is good at blowing himself up too |
| 04:15.21 | Arrowmaster | lol Yar! has 10000 fighters around Ferrengal |
| 04:15.22 | Shirik | maybe you can learn something from hinm |
| 04:15.27 | cog|away | i think if you create a planet you'll make enough to get back to positive alignment |
| 04:15.28 | Shirik | fu Arrowmaster |
| 04:15.44 | Shirik | away from my sectorz |
| 04:15.56 | cog|away | ^_^ |
| 04:15.59 | Shirik | no |
| 04:16.00 | cog|away | :P |
| 04:16.01 | Shirik | fu |
| 04:16.03 | ScytheBlade1 | heh |
| 04:16.06 | ScytheBlade1 | Terrorist Cogwheel |
| 04:16.10 | cog|away | i am sysop, hear me rawr |
| 04:16.11 | ScytheBlade1 | that has a ring to it |
| 04:16.18 | Arrowmaster | Shirik: you keeping them at bay for all of us? |
| 04:16.27 | Shirik | you could say that |
| 04:16.36 | ScytheBlade1 | Shirik: besides, thanks to you, I have a semi-decent map at my disposal! ;) |
| 04:16.44 | Shirik | Ah damn it |
| 04:16.47 | Shirik | GIVE ME BACK MY WARP SPEC |
| 04:17.08 | ScytheBlade1 | The moment I get that replacement motherboard... dot is going to go at it |
| 04:17.44 | Shirik | I think dot is going to piss its pants |
| 04:17.49 | ScytheBlade1 | Possibly |
| 04:17.59 | ScytheBlade1 | But we'll see what 6GB of RAM and an i7 will do to it |
| 04:18.11 | Shirik | Sbo logged off :( |
| 04:18.18 | ScytheBlade1 | I'm back in |
| 04:19.05 | Shirik | Seriously though |
| 04:19.06 | Shirik | wtf is with gnomes and evil |
| 04:19.10 | Shirik | I knew gnomes were evil and all |
| 04:19.13 | Shirik | but this is rediculous |
| 04:19.25 | ScytheBlade1 | Shirik: you be glad that peppey logged off. |
| 04:19.28 | ScytheBlade1 | Shirik: that is all. |
| 04:19.40 | Shirik | Is it because you want the smaller ships? |
| 04:19.42 | Shirik | ohohohoo |
| 04:19.57 | ScytheBlade1 | lol |
| 04:19.59 | ScytheBlade1 | I just now got that |
| 04:23.02 | kmcguire | Man, that corbonite mod author makes me so mad I just want to start working on a clone of it, lol. |
| 04:23.16 | ScytheBlade1 | kmcguire: link to his posts? |
| 04:23.27 | kmcguire | http://www.wowinterface.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21327 |
| 04:23.57 | ScytheBlade1 | erm, that isn't carbonite? That's nUI? |
| 04:23.59 | Tekkub | that's not carbonite's author |
| 04:24.05 | kmcguire | Oh, I got them mixed up. |
| 04:24.08 | kmcguire | Opps. |
| 04:24.14 | Tekkub | yea you suck |
| 04:24.17 | Shirik | cog|away went back to pirate |
| 04:24.23 | kmcguire | I do, lol. |
| 04:24.52 | Shirik | cog|away |
| 04:25.01 | Shirik | why do you have a mule instead of a CFS again? |
| 04:25.04 | Shirik | Did you blow up again? |
| 04:25.43 | Shirik | Enter the beginning date you wish to read from. Today is 03/21/21 |
| 04:25.43 | Shirik | Use the format MM/DD/YY |
| 04:25.49 | Shirik | 21? |
| 04:26.13 | Tekkub | MM/DD/YY is crap |
| 04:26.22 | Tekkub | YYYY-MM-DD is the one true date format |
| 04:26.36 | Shirik | DD-MMM-YYYY |
| 04:26.41 | Shirik | That way there's no confusion |
| 04:27.10 | ScytheBlade1 | er |
| 04:27.12 | ScytheBlade1 | MMM? |
| 04:27.21 | sacarasc | Jan to Dec. |
| 04:28.05 | Arrowmaster | YYYY-MM-DD is sortable by the most basic of sort algorithms |
| 04:28.17 | Shirik | yes |
| 04:28.22 | Shirik | and that's why I use that programaticall |
| 04:28.28 | Shirik | but not when someone has to read it |
| 04:28.29 | Iriel | That one's an ISO standard |
| 04:28.44 | Iriel | 8601, I think |
| 04:28.55 | Iriel | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601 |
| 04:29.16 | cog|away | Shirik: flagship only has 85 holds |
| 04:29.20 | ScytheBlade1 | Man Iriel. You just took your geek level to something like 20 above anyone here. |
| 04:29.22 | Shirik | ah |
| 04:29.32 | Shirik | ScytheBlade1: It already was |
| 04:29.38 | ScytheBlade1 | Memorizing ISO numbers for time and date standards? |
| 04:29.40 | Iriel | What!? Time is important! |
| 04:29.43 | ScytheBlade1 | That... I'm at a loss for words |
| 04:29.46 | ScytheBlade1 | Of course it is |
| 04:29.50 | ScytheBlade1 | I'm not disagreeing |
| 04:30.00 | ScytheBlade1 | But really |
| 04:30.12 | Iriel | I'll confess that I was writing up some documentation on a set of utility methods I wrote at the end of last week so it was at the front of my mind.. I could have looked it up otherwise tho 8-) |
| 04:30.16 | Shirik | Only standard worth memorizing is RFC 2549 |
| 04:30.25 | Shirik | (and RFC 1149) |
| 04:30.46 | Iriel | But that standard has been very useful for years (When you do any kind of work involving long term representation of dates it helps to have a standard) |
| 04:31.00 | Arrowmaster | i knew date was 8601 because ive used it too |
| 04:31.06 | sacarasc | Shirik: I dunno, I got 1459 down pretty well. |
| 04:31.20 | Shirik | maybe |
| 04:31.24 | Shirik | but 1459 is not worth memorizing |
| 04:31.27 | Shirik | 1149 and 2549 are |
| 04:32.17 | Iriel | RFC748 is pretty useful too |
| 04:32.32 | ScytheBlade1 | ha |
| 04:32.49 | Shirik | Wow |
| 04:32.50 | Shirik | that's old |
| 04:35.35 | Thunder_Child | http://i.gizmodo.com/5177099/concord-c1-quantumgravity-watch-ready-to-defy-laws-of-physics-budgets |
| 04:35.41 | kd3 | yay, a poster actively admitting he's entitled to use for-pay stuff for free |
| 04:35.55 | ScytheBlade1 | kd3: /stab users |
| 04:37.10 | kd3 | anyone want to answer http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15864258085&sid=1#17 for me? |
| 04:37.18 | kd3 | I'm having a hard time typing gibberish |
| 04:37.24 | kd3 | s/typing/not typing/ |
| 04:38.00 | ScytheBlade1 | kd3: pass me your account info and sure ;) |
| 04:40.53 | Kirov | kd3 - That guy is way too much of a troll to bother responding to. |
| 04:44.09 | cog|away | heh... i already have him on ignore |
| 04:45.50 | ScytheBlade1 | cog|away: so how exactly do I find prices on other planets? |
| 04:46.07 | cog|away | ScytheBlade1: you go buy a genesis torpedo at the hardware emporium |
| 04:46.10 | cog|away | on the stardock |
| 04:46.19 | cog|away | 25k, each one builds a planet of a random class |
| 04:46.31 | ScytheBlade1 | Think you misunderstood |
| 04:46.32 | Arrowmaster | i think he means the prices for stuff at the ports |
| 04:46.35 | ScytheBlade1 | Yeah |
| 04:46.40 | ScytheBlade1 | So I know what to buy/sell |
| 04:46.44 | cog|away | oh |
| 04:46.46 | Arrowmaster | thats based on the % of max |
| 04:46.47 | ScytheBlade1 | Or rather, what NOT to buy |
| 04:46.50 | Arrowmaster | i think |
| 04:47.05 | cog|away | is it even possible to get a bad deal? |
| 04:47.09 | Arrowmaster | yes |
| 04:47.21 | cog|away | I know there's diminishing returns but i didn't think you could actually come out backwards |
| 04:47.27 | Arrowmaster | oh no |
| 04:47.28 | cog|away | err. upside down |
| 04:47.37 | Arrowmaster | but you start getting less and less profit |
| 04:47.55 | cog|away | right. the script i use has a default set to 20% |
| 04:48.00 | cog|away | floor |
| 04:48.01 | ScytheBlade1 | How do the diminishing returns work? |
| 04:48.03 | Arrowmaster | same |
| 04:48.23 | cog|away | the more you sell to a port the less theyll pay next time |
| 04:48.30 | ScytheBlade1 | So per-port basis |
| 04:48.34 | cog|away | until their buy capacity is replenished |
| 04:48.40 | cog|away | yep |
| 04:48.57 | ScytheBlade1 | So rather standard supply and demand |
| 04:49.01 | cog|away | *nod* |
| 04:49.03 | Arrowmaster | ScytheBlade1: its not really diminishing returns on you but the port, if the % is lower then they start charging more to buy their stuff and paying less when you sell it |
| 04:49.10 | ScytheBlade1 | right |
| 04:49.41 | cog|away | I think it's exactly diminishing returns because your returns (the amount of money your making) are diminishing :P |
| 04:49.54 | Arrowmaster | heh |
| 04:51.00 | ScytheBlade1 | So pretty much no matter what I do, I can really only go up? This sounds oddly like a C&C RTS with infinite resources ;) |
| 04:51.06 | Shirik | yes, basically you can only go up |
| 04:51.22 | Shirik | I use a 15% floor |
| 04:51.35 | Arrowmaster | unless maybe you get into gambling or take too many wrong turns at the starport |
| 04:51.40 | Shirik | rofl |
| 04:51.41 | ScytheBlade1 | Okay then a good question from this convo |
| 04:51.47 | ScytheBlade1 | Scripts? |
| 04:51.48 | Arrowmaster | seriously i got mugged |
| 04:51.48 | cog|away | and fighters aren't exactly cheap |
| 04:52.00 | Arrowmaster | 161 per fighter isnt that bad |
| 04:52.03 | Shirik | Arrowmaster: btdt |
| 04:52.16 | Shirik | Arrowmaster: It is bad when you have to take on 50k ftrs at a 1.5:1 ratio |
| 04:52.19 | cog|away | when compared to the maximum you can hold combined with the amount of money the ports are mathematically capable of generating |
| 04:53.08 | Arrowmaster | well the most combat ive seen so far was sending 10k fighters to destroy yours |
| 04:53.26 | Arrowmaster | and getting like 1.5mil alighnment |
| 04:53.31 | Shirik | mine where? :( |
| 04:53.37 | Arrowmaster | no cogs |
| 04:54.01 | Shirik | o |
| 04:54.17 | cog|away | i was in his base stealin his dudes |
| 04:54.31 | Arrowmaster | he took my planets while the citadels were building, mined the sector, and left a few thousand fighters |
| 04:55.12 | cog|away | and ran a colonize move script :P |
| 04:55.19 | Arrowmaster | you did? |
| 04:55.25 | Arrowmaster | i still have 19M |
| 04:55.26 | cog|away | just be glad i didn't blow 'em all up :P |
| 04:55.28 | *** join/#wowuidev Tem (n=tardmrr@WoWUIDev/WoWI/Dongle/Tem) |
| 04:55.28 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+v Tem] by ChanServ |
| 04:55.38 | cog|away | i know... i only have 85 holds and used most of them for fuel ore |
| 04:55.43 | Arrowmaster | lol |
| 04:55.53 | cog|away | i still got away with ~6m or so |
| 04:56.05 | Arrowmaster | my colonists must fuck a lot |
| 04:56.08 | cog|away | oh i also started with only ~700 turns |
| 04:56.47 | Shirik | Arrowmaster: Did he successfully take them? |
| 04:56.56 | Shirik | It is not in my best interests to allow him to keep that |
| 04:57.07 | ScytheBlade1 | WHOO |
| 04:57.08 | ScytheBlade1 | You have 10,113 credits and 10 empty cargo holds. |
| 04:57.11 | Arrowmaster | take what? |
| 04:57.13 | ScytheBlade1 | I HAVE MADE 113 CREDITS |
| 04:57.15 | Shirik | the sector |
| 04:57.17 | Shirik | planets |
| 04:57.17 | Arrowmaster | no |
| 04:57.20 | cog|away | woot! |
| 04:57.21 | Arrowmaster | i got them back |
| 04:57.25 | Arrowmaster | easily |
| 04:57.27 | Thunder_Child | is there not a JC in IF? |
| 04:57.31 | Thunder_Child | trainer* |
| 04:57.35 | cog|away | yeah i think it was only like 5k figs |
| 04:57.51 | Shirik | so ScytheBlade1 |
| 04:57.53 | Shirik | where you at? |
| 04:57.59 | cog|away | didn't want to invest TOO heavily... it's not exactly a prime location :P |
| 04:58.08 | ScytheBlade1 | Pretty sure I don't want to tell you that anymore |
| 04:58.10 | Shirik | :P |
| 04:58.20 | Shirik | you are becoming a Nuisance |
| 04:58.22 | Arrowmaster | ok which fucker beaconed every sector connecting to sector 1 |
| 04:58.23 | Shirik | literally |
| 04:58.30 | ScytheBlade1 | SECOND CLASS |
| 04:58.31 | ScytheBlade1 | REPRESENT |
| 04:58.50 | Shirik | Arrowmaster? |
| 04:58.55 | Shirik | You mean 2,3,4,5,6,7? |
| 04:59.05 | Shirik | FedSpace beacons? |
| 04:59.12 | Arrowmaster | my trade script just exited because it had no safe options |
| 04:59.16 | Shirik | lmao |
| 04:59.22 | Shirik | those are all fedspace beacons |
| 04:59.56 | Shirik | though that's really funny |
| 05:00.04 | Shirik | maybe I'll start dropping 1 fighter everwhere |
| 05:00.21 | Arrowmaster | script will just destroy it |
| 05:00.31 | Shirik | aw |
| 05:00.34 | Shirik | but it's not safe! |
| 05:00.42 | ScytheBlade1 | Scripts?! |
| 05:00.45 | ScytheBlade1 | Explain these scripts! |
| 05:01.08 | Shirik | twxproxy.com |
| 05:01.17 | Zootfizzle | What Shirik said! |
| 05:01.22 | cog|away | ^ |
| 05:01.24 | ScytheBlade1 | ........ |
| 05:01.25 | Arrowmaster | http://code.google.com/p/twxproxy-ep/ |
| 05:01.25 | Shirik | you will go crazy trying to use up 5000 turns without it |
| 05:01.27 | Shirik | HOWEVER |
| 05:01.31 | Shirik | I suggest you learn the game first |
| 05:01.35 | cog|away | ^ |
| 05:01.38 | ScytheBlade1 | Botting eh |
| 05:01.42 | Shirik | because those scripts can do some bad things otherwise :P |
| 05:01.45 | Zootfizzle | Moar what shirik said |
| 05:01.53 | cog|away | moar ^ |
| 05:01.57 | ScytheBlade1 | lol |
| 05:02.02 | ScytheBlade1 | <PROTECTED> |
| 05:02.06 | Shirik | I always watch the scripts while they're running because they have a habit of running into cog|away's limpet mines |
| 05:02.10 | kd3 | gasp, it's zoot |
| 05:02.10 | Shirik | and then he comes and chases me |
| 05:02.18 | Shirik | and then I have to NTPT GTFO |
| 05:02.22 | Thunder_Child | lies Shirik |
| 05:02.28 | Thunder_Child | i dont know the game but i use the scripts |
| 05:02.34 | Thunder_Child | <- WIN |
| 05:02.41 | ScytheBlade1 | Zootfizzle: you playing good or evil? |
| 05:02.46 | Shirik | he's a gnome |
| 05:02.51 | Shirik | therefore he's evil |
| 05:02.54 | Shirik | cog|away corrupted him |
| 05:02.55 | kd3 | hey! |
| 05:02.59 | End | that doesn't mean anything |
| 05:02.59 | ScytheBlade1 | Sounds like I picked the good side then |
| 05:03.04 | Shirik | kd3: 100% of the gnomes playing are currently evil |
| 05:03.04 | ScytheBlade1 | kd3: come join the evil side with us |
| 05:03.06 | Shirik | you raen't playing |
| 05:03.07 | End | the only thing being a gnome grants... |
| 05:03.10 | End | is a lack of common sense |
| 05:03.12 | cog|away | ScytheBlade1: join hell gnomes! |
| 05:03.16 | ScytheBlade1 | rofl |
| 05:03.20 | Zootfizzle | Everyone said gnomes were evil while I was a Fed and I resented it |
| 05:03.29 | ScytheBlade1 | Ah |
| 05:03.35 | ScytheBlade1 | cog|away: how2respond? |
| 05:03.36 | End | sure, irradiating your home city sounds like a fantastic idea |
| 05:03.40 | Shirik | respond to what? |
| 05:03.44 | Shirik | He's having private chats with you? |
| 05:03.45 | ScytheBlade1 | Nothing! |
| 05:03.50 | ScytheBlade1 | I WILL NOT BE TALKING TO YOU |
| 05:03.51 | End | more like pirate chats |
| 05:03.58 | Shirik | i c wut u did thar |
| 05:04.02 | End | no wait, that'd be with slouken :o |
| 05:04.09 | Arrowmaster | who? |
| 05:04.21 | Shirik | Well End you would be right |
| 05:04.22 | *** join/#wowuidev Jamash (n=Jamash@75-25-130-215.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 05:04.23 | Shirik | Who's Playing |
| 05:04.23 | Shirik | Pirate cogwheel [1] |
| 05:04.30 | End | lol |
| 05:04.42 | Shirik | compared to |
| 05:04.43 | Shirik | Nuisance 2nd Class Sbo |
| 05:05.01 | End | I only vaguely know what you guys are talking about |
| 05:05.14 | Shirik | Well you can figure out that nuisance and pirate are... not exactly close to each other |
| 05:05.18 | ScytheBlade1 | End: I have no idea what we're talking about either tbh |
| 05:05.21 | End | haha |
| 05:05.35 | Thunder_Child | TW nublets |
| 05:05.37 | ScytheBlade1 | End: all I know is that I am on the opposite side of Shirik (and with the gnomes) which is where I belong |
| 05:06.04 | Shirik | Thanks to cog|away, I have so much positive alignment, I can't get anymore ^_^ |
| 05:06.16 | End | maybe you'll overflow and go negative |
| 05:06.27 | Shirik | nah, the game just keeps complaining "You already have the maximum alignment!" |
| 05:06.33 | End | pfff |
| 05:06.41 | End | what sort of properly coded crap is that! |
| 05:06.50 | cog|away | End: he got it from attacking me... |
| 05:06.52 | kd3 | blah. time for zzz |
| 05:06.54 | End | lol |
| 05:07.00 | cog|away | i have the exact same alignment... only negative :P |
| 05:07.05 | Shirik | Trader Name : Lieutenant Shirik |
| 05:07.05 | Shirik | Rank and Exp : 17,468 points, Alignment=4,500,000 Saintly |
| 05:07.07 | Shirik | See that? SAINTLY |
| 05:07.23 | ScytheBlade1 | cog|away: that is awesome |
| 05:07.30 | Arrowmaster | Rank and Exp : 9,549 points, Alignment=1,494,198 Saintly |
| 05:08.06 | *** join/#wowuidev digmouse (n=chatzill@222.240.182.154) |
| 05:09.00 | ScytheBlade1 | How do I broadcast like that? |
| 05:09.14 | Shirik | ` |
| 05:10.18 | ScytheBlade1 | Is there a corp broadcast? |
| 05:10.38 | cog|away | no |
| 05:10.52 | cog|away | but we can pick a random subspace radio channel though |
| 05:10.53 | *** join/#wowuidev Torhal_ (n=callahan@74-130-66-145.dhcp.insightbb.com) |
| 05:10.57 | cog|away | but they're not secure |
| 05:11.02 | cog|away | sorta like CB |
| 05:11.05 | ScytheBlade1 | hmm |
| 05:11.22 | Shirik | So if someone figures out your radio channel |
| 05:11.24 | Shirik | you're screwed |
| 05:11.25 | Shirik | and worst part |
| 05:11.29 | Shirik | you have NO IDEA if someone's listening in |
| 05:12.07 | ScytheBlade1 | lol |
| 05:12.52 | Cairenn | Tekkub: bravo bravo bravissimo |
| 05:13.01 | Tekkub | le mu? |
| 05:13.12 | Cairenn | #198 |
| 05:13.37 | Tekkub | yea I really don't see how people are missing that |
| 05:13.46 | *** part/#wowuidev Aznamir (n=aznamir@ool-43544a0d.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 05:13.50 | Thunder_Child | Rank and Exp : 125 points, Alignment=6 Tolerant" heh |
| 05:13.51 | Tekkub | they're just reading #1 and freaking the fuck out without thinking |
| 05:14.09 | Arrowmaster | which thread? |
| 05:14.10 | Shirik | Tekkub: People see what they want to see |
| 05:14.19 | Shirik | And ignore everything they don't |
| 05:14.29 | Tekkub | like a certain someone with a name that ends in "ogwheel" :P |
| 05:14.53 | Tekkub | *drama queen* |
| 05:16.21 | cog|away | well of course we ignore the parts we don't take issue with... |
| 05:16.22 | cog|away | :P |
| 05:16.41 | Shirik | silent majority? |
| 05:16.59 | Shirik | (or rather, same philosophy) |
| 05:17.11 | Shirik | but seriously |
| 05:17.18 | Shirik | how am I supposed to run scripts when I'm trying to moderate this thread |
| 05:17.35 | Tekkub | ban the troll and get on with your life? |
| 05:18.21 | Tekkub | I mean, you don't have to erase the record of his troll, you could leave it for all to see what an asstard he was |
| 05:18.45 | Tekkub | and then the thread can change it's topic to laughing at the troll that can no longer respond |
| 05:18.50 | Shirik | actually |
| 05:18.52 | Shirik | he deleted his own posts |
| 05:19.30 | Tekkub | mmmhummm... at the same time you were using his own hand to punch him while saying "stop hitting yourself" |
| 05:19.39 | Tekkub | I know what kind of bully you are boy |
| 05:20.18 | Thunder_Child | when is noblegarden? |
| 05:20.41 | Shirik | cog|away: What's the turn limit? |
| 05:20.53 | Tekkub | "soon" |
| 05:20.55 | Shirik | I'm debating just logging off for tonight instead of watching your every move |
| 05:21.14 | cog|away | 5000 with 7 days bankable |
| 05:26.25 | |Jelly| | This whole thing is getting silly. |
| 05:26.34 | |Jelly| | IMO, stop stressing until Tuesday. |
| 05:30.59 | Thunder_Child | |Jelly|, me? |
| 05:31.46 | Thunder_Child | "22:20.23 Thunder_Child: when is noblegarden?" |
| 05:32.00 | Thunder_Child | tues is patch day |
| 05:32.04 | Thunder_Child | it could have been at me |
| 05:32.42 | cog|away | oh... hmm... i think my eyes are telling me to sleep... |
| 05:32.49 | cog|away | fuck 'em |
| 05:33.37 | cog|away | who needs eyes anyway? |
| 05:34.00 | |Jelly| | Just ... everyone. I honestly see both sides of the argument/debate/whatever, but why stress yourself out when Blizzard staff isn't even in the office? (Figure of speech) I do know that they released this on Friday (which honestly, I figured from the start was because they knew it would cause a stir) /probably/ with every intent on revising it after community feedback. They're getting a lot... |
| 05:34.02 | |Jelly| | ...of feedback -- some good and some bad; feedback none the less. I just don't see the point in giving yourself a heart attack before (at least) Tuesday. |
| 05:34.21 | ScytheBlade1 | What is Tuesday? |
| 05:34.38 | |Jelly| | The day after Monday. |
| 05:34.53 | ScytheBlade1 | What is so special about tuesday though? |
| 05:35.01 | *** join/#wowuidev ecs (n=ecs@unaffiliated/ecstasia) |
| 05:35.13 | cog|away | |Jelly|: the problem is timezones |
| 05:35.21 | |Jelly| | It's the (IMO) first day that Blizzard might have a response to people. Monday being the day they look over feedback. |
| 05:35.21 | cog|away | new people are constantly coming into the conversation |
| 05:35.27 | ScytheBlade1 | ah |
| 05:35.32 | cog|away | and they can't read the whole thread |
| 05:35.35 | ScytheBlade1 | Fair enough |
| 05:35.39 | cog|away | so they make the same old arguments |
| 05:35.56 | |Jelly| | I could be (and probably am) completely full of shit though. I just don't think that Blizzard would shit (pardon) on the authors like they are over (assuming) one addon. |
| 05:36.19 | |Jelly| | Oh, I completely understand cog. I'm not even going to read the Writers Strike thread because I know I wont read it all. |
| 05:36.32 | |Jelly| | I can tell you that I'm VERY surprised by Elloria's opinion. |
| 05:36.38 | kmcguire | Ants will take over the world anyway. So everything will be okay. |
| 05:36.55 | |Jelly| | I for one welcome our new ant overlords. |
| 05:41.27 | |Jelly| | So is there a list now of people who have stopped maintaining their addons? |
| 05:41.35 | *** part/#wowuidev Seerah (n=Ryan_L@adsl-66-10-174.mem.bellsouth.net) |
| 05:41.49 | cog|away | I still can't believe "I don't understand why people are arguing about this. The rules are set. |
| 05:41.52 | cog|away | So where do I get my full version no-ads non-obfuscated no donation requests in the addon free Carbonite? " |
| 05:42.15 | ScytheBlade1 | Ignorance overwhelming |
| 05:42.21 | Sixen | rawr. |
| 05:42.25 | |Jelly| | Do people honestly think that Carbonite is all of the sudden free? ... are people that dumb? |
| 05:42.30 | Zyndrome | http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=52824 |
| 05:42.36 | Arrowmaster | i dont think that one was ignorance |
| 05:42.51 | cog|away | yeah, they went overboard in another thread |
| 05:42.58 | cog|away | fairly certain (s)he's a troll |
| 05:43.15 | Arrowmaster | a troll proving a good point |
| 05:43.22 | |Jelly| | I do have a question though ... what if Carbonite doesn't stop? I mean, can Blizzard make Carbonite not work without you know, making *ahem* other addons not work? |
| 05:43.37 | ScytheBlade1 | |Jelly|: as per their doc, "legal action" |
| 05:43.43 | ScytheBlade1 | |Jelly|: which scares me. |
| 05:44.04 | Arrowmaster | 3.1 looks to have added stuff to block specific addons based on a file that gets updated from blizzard every time you start wow |
| 05:44.30 | |Jelly| | Hmm. |
| 05:44.47 | |Jelly| | Any idea for the layman what this would change? Aside from Carbonite not working, obviously. |
| 05:44.53 | kmcguire | Hmm, anyone know what the excessive chat system usage is about for instance? |
| 05:45.27 | Arrowmaster | not really until they act against an addon for that one |
| 05:46.54 | kmcguire | I just read it once more. I am figuring that if a add-on at some time caused so much of a load on their realm that they could you know do whatever they might do to stop it. |
| 05:47.49 | cog|away | |Jelly|: diminishing the scope of a market affects everyone in it more as time progresses |
| 05:48.19 | cog|away | The fewer products there are competing, and the fewer incentives for innovation, the fewer products you'll end up with in the long run |
| 05:48.21 | |Jelly| | So ... doomsday scenerio, day 2? |
| 05:48.40 | cog|away | I think the first doomsday will be when the next patch breaks a bunch of addons |
| 05:48.48 | |Jelly| | Oh god. |
| 05:48.54 | cog|away | That will be the true test of who's left |
| 05:48.57 | |Jelly| | Speaking of, when is 3.1 due? lol |
| 05:49.35 | kmcguire | Man, I just read somewhere where they said the carbonite add-on actually encrypted part of it's code. Anyone know if this is ture? |
| 05:49.37 | kmcguire | ture/true |
| 05:49.38 | cog|away | I think wow will lose some customers. More than a handful but not particularly significant |
| 05:50.01 | cog|away | maybe not "encrypted" per se, but it was obfuscated for sure |
| 05:50.12 | kmcguire | bullocks |
| 05:50.17 | kmcguire | hehe |
| 05:50.22 | kmcguire | =p |
| 05:51.37 | ScytheBlade1 | My account is dead, but for unrelated reasons. If it was still active in any form, I'd resubscribe and then cancel with an updated "why?!" message. |
| 05:51.54 | cog|away | carbonite/qh attract a crowd that doesn't want to invest as much in the thinking, planning, and discovery aspects of the game. |
| 05:52.07 | cog|away | whether it's their first time through or otherwise |
| 05:52.12 | ScytheBlade1 | hmm, that is a good point |
| 05:52.20 | cog|away | Some of them will no longer feel a desire to play |
| 05:52.24 | Arrowmaster | if both die i can see a loss of players |
| 05:52.37 | Arrowmaster | there have been people that said they would not play the game without one of them |
| 05:52.51 | cog|away | yeah, but people always say shit like that on the wow forums :P |
| 05:52.53 | |Jelly| | I leveled to 80 the first time alone. I did it the second time with QH because I wanted to be more efficient about it. I'm kind of tired of people saying that the people that use QH et al are on some level idiots because they "can't read" or whatever. |
| 05:53.03 | kmcguire | I think someone will pick the quest helper add-on up and continue it. |
| 05:53.07 | ScytheBlade1 | |Jelly|: idiot |
| 05:53.09 | ScytheBlade1 | |Jelly|: :) |
| 05:53.15 | kmcguire | If the original author tries to abandon it. |
| 05:53.21 | *** join/#wowuidev Hirsute (i=Rupert@WoWUIDev/Norganna/Developer/Hirsute) |
| 05:53.23 | Arrowmaster | the original author has |
| 05:53.25 | cog|away | kmcguire: wonder how long that will last ;) |
| 05:53.32 | Arrowmaster | a very long damn time ago |
| 05:53.33 | |Jelly| | I can tell you this, I /will not/ play without Pitbull. You can bank on that. I've already warned my GM about it. |
| 05:53.45 | ScytheBlade1 | kmcguire: that would not be the first time... it has been through many hands, iirc |
| 05:53.58 | kmcguire | Well, I might fix a bug in quest helper when the patch hits. Just to show the original author we dont need him and his bag of tricks. |
| 05:54.10 | |Jelly| | For me, creating UIs (even as much as most of you seem to be against them for whatever reason) is more fun than the game is. If that's removed, there's no point in me hanging around. |
| 05:54.10 | Arrowmaster | good luck |
| 05:54.12 | ScytheBlade1 | kmcguire: fyi, he is sitting here in this channel. |
| 05:54.15 | cog|away | ZorbaTHut: how do you feel about that? |
| 05:54.16 | kmcguire | good |
| 05:54.24 | cog|away | *rolleyes* |
| 05:54.28 | ScytheBlade1 | ................ |
| 05:54.37 | Arrowmaster | he said in the past that it takes like an hour for the scripts to run to build a version |
| 05:55.00 | ScytheBlade1 | http://www.fortunecity.com/millennium/lunchbox/187/pokemon/psyduck2.gif |
| 05:55.03 | ScytheBlade1 | ^ relevant |
| 05:55.17 | |Jelly| | What are you talking about Arrowmaster? Any idiot can pick up QH where Zorba left off. /sarcasm |
| 05:55.28 | Arrowmaster | yeah i know right /sarcasm |
| 05:56.15 | kmcguire | Let me download quest helper and look at what in the world it has. |
| 05:56.28 | Arrowmaster | a huge quest database |
| 05:56.31 | |Jelly| | I don't mean to attack you kmcguire (if you take it as such) but I'm tired of people thinking that they can do something better than the "original" author can without having anything to back them up. Where's your already fixed version of QH? Where's your bug report with a resolution? etc. |
| 05:57.05 | Cairenn | guys |
| 05:57.22 | ScytheBlade1 | Cairenn: this is relatively tame ;P |
| 05:57.26 | ScytheBlade1 | (all things considered) |
| 05:57.35 | Cairenn | I know |
| 05:57.38 | Cairenn | just reminding :) |
| 05:57.45 | kmcguire | Jelly: Well, I likely could not do better. But, someone could keep things going. |
| 05:57.46 | Cairenn | which is why I didn't say anything more ;) |
| 05:58.07 | |Jelly| | Reminding of what? (Honestly, I haven't been home all day so I didn't see any requests from you, etc) Or just to generally be nice to eachother? |
| 05:58.18 | ScytheBlade1 | |Jelly|: /topic |
| 05:58.22 | Cairenn | ^^ :) |
| 05:59.22 | |Jelly| | Ok, so I assume my question was taken as debate rather than flaming or trolling (I hope at least); I genuinely want to know. |
| 05:59.29 | |Jelly| | Besides ... |
| 05:59.40 | ScytheBlade1 | |Jelly|: suckup |
| 05:59.41 | |Jelly| | We all know I don't want Cairenn mad at me! <3 |
| 05:59.45 | |Jelly| | lol |
| 05:59.48 | ScytheBlade1 | =] |
| 05:59.52 | Cairenn | I'm not mad at anyone |
| 05:59.53 | Hirsute | i think it was just a general reminder not to let things escalate. |
| 05:59.57 | Fisker- | wait what? |
| 05:59.58 | Cairenn | yup |
| 06:00.04 | Fisker- | layers have to deal with things like lag or whatever mods they use or just dumb luck. RNG exists in boss fights. Strings of crits for a Fire mage or strings of parries for a DK tank can change the outcome enormously. |
| 06:00.12 | Fisker- | That's why death knights are so horrible overpowered at DPS |
| 06:00.13 | cog|away | I move that "respectful of each others' opinions" be changed to "respectful of each others' right to their opinions" If someone believes slavery is good, I should have the right to disrespect that opinion!1zomgz00r (sorry... weak attempt at humor... should probably sleep) |
| 06:00.24 | Cairenn | heh |
| 06:00.25 | Fisker- | apparently DK's tanks are DPS! :P |
| 06:00.47 | |Jelly| | cog|away, I disagree with your right to ... have |away in your name! <# |
| 06:00.49 | |Jelly| | <3 |
| 06:00.51 | *** join/#wowuidev copystring_ (n=copystri@84.138.27.80) |
| 06:01.00 | ScytheBlade1 | I should sleep too, but the more I sit here with this neck massager the better. |
| 06:01.00 | Shirik | cog|away: I do not respect your opinion that we should change it to be respectful of rights to opinions |
| 06:01.16 | cog|away | Cairenn: ban Shirik ! |
| 06:01.17 | ScytheBlade1 | Shirik: okay just stop that, right now |
| 06:01.18 | ScytheBlade1 | =[ |
| 06:01.22 | cog|away | :P |
| 06:01.23 | Cairenn | heh |
| 06:01.24 | Shirik | did I hurt your head? |
| 06:01.27 | Hirsute | circular argument is circular! Yay! |
| 06:01.28 | ScytheBlade1 | Yes |
| 06:01.30 | ScytheBlade1 | Which is impressive |
| 06:01.35 | |Jelly| | My head kinda of assploded there. |
| 06:01.40 | ScytheBlade1 | Considering how much it currently hurts as-is |
| 06:01.47 | Hirsute | assploded? Wow... |
| 06:02.04 | Shirik | Funny thing is, there's no solution to my statement |
| 06:02.04 | |Jelly| | Yes. Assploded. |
| 06:02.17 | Shirik | If my statement is agreed with, then I am in violation of it by not respecting opinions |
| 06:02.28 | ScytheBlade1 | Shirik: I thought I told you to stop |
| 06:02.28 | Shirik | If my statement is not agreed with, it no longer must be followed because I do not have to respect opinions |
| 06:02.34 | ScytheBlade1 | Shirik: /told you to stop/ |
| 06:02.35 | ScytheBlade1 | =[ |
| 06:02.41 | Shirik | ok I'll be quiet >.> |
| 06:03.21 | ScytheBlade1 | Time to sleep it is! |
| 06:03.24 | Shirik | :( |
| 06:03.27 | Shirik | don't sleep |
| 06:03.30 | ScytheBlade1 | lol |
| 06:03.34 | Shirik | I have a flight tomorrow, I won't see you :( |
| 06:03.37 | ScytheBlade1 | lol |
| 06:03.41 | Shirik | Actually it's in the morning so I'll probably be home by noon |
| 06:03.43 | Shirik | but that's not the point |
| 06:03.44 | ScytheBlade1 | You... won't see me anyway |
| 06:03.49 | |Jelly| | Where is Shirik now? |
| 06:03.50 | ScytheBlade1 | And that is somewhat creepy |
| 06:03.53 | Shirik | VA |
| 06:03.55 | cog|away | >< |
| 06:03.56 | ScytheBlade1 | Bad vibes inc |
| 06:04.09 | |Jelly| | hmm |
| 06:06.23 | Shirik | 1. Conventions used in this document |
| 06:06.37 | Tekkub | 1a. Geneva |
| 06:06.45 | Shirik | The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "DO", "DON'T", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", "MAY BE" and "OPTIONAL" in this document do not mean anything. |
| 06:07.08 | ScytheBlade1 | Shirik: no nuking me while I sleep |
| 06:07.21 | Shirik | where did you log out |
| 06:07.26 | ScytheBlade1 | 1 |
| 06:07.26 | Shirik | did you log out somewhere stupid? |
| 06:07.31 | Shirik | Ok that's somewhere stupid |
| 06:07.35 | ScytheBlade1 | Yup |
| 06:07.38 | ScytheBlade1 | So no nuking me |
| 06:07.39 | Shirik | No promises |
| 06:07.43 | Thunder_Child | "[11:05] [3] <71:Latamalia>: Healz LFG H HoL PST" <- odd |
| 06:07.49 | Shirik | you should ask cog|away to provide safe zone |
| 06:08.18 | Jamash | oh you're talking about TW |
| 06:08.24 | Jamash | for a minute I was totally nonplussed |
| 06:10.27 | cog|away | 1b. Star Trek |
| 06:11.48 | Fisker- | are you korean? |
| 06:13.13 | cog|away | Jamash: circumcision is NOT cool |
| 06:13.53 | Tekkub | wow, something I can agree with cog on |
| 06:14.41 | Jamash | ...not really where I was going with that. |
| 06:17.46 | cog|away | nothing new on the forums after 5 mins of refreshing... time for bed >< |
| 06:18.09 | |Jelly| | I can fire up some people if you want. |
| 06:18.20 | |Jelly| | ... but really, how bad do you want to stay up? :P |
| 06:18.21 | Jamash | I can set some people on fire if you want. |
| 06:18.22 | cog|away | probably better if you didn't :P |
| 06:18.36 | cog|away | Jamash: i can think of a fiew :> |
| 06:18.41 | cog|away | few* |
| 06:18.53 | kmcguire | Im going to bed, but I was thinking. Sorry if I offended anyone with my ways of thinking. I think my comments are not viewed from my perspective which makes them difficult to understand about the donate and pay for add-on type deals. But, I just feel that these add-ons for these few MMORPG games should be released with fewer or easier to manage features, or the add-on author should just include a notice in the add-on that no mo |
| 06:19.10 | Jamash | WUAGH |
| 06:19.13 | kmcguire | =p |
| 06:19.16 | cog|away | that no mo |
| 06:19.20 | cog|away | is where it ended |
| 06:19.49 | cog|away | and fwiw, I think we've seen it from pretty much every angle on the forums today |
| 06:20.34 | |Jelly| | wow |
| 06:20.37 | |Jelly| | just ... wow |
| 06:20.41 | kmcguire | Oh, and release the add-ons under a GPL so others can continue where you left off. |
| 06:20.48 | |Jelly| | Imizael, if you're in here ... jesus, I'm sorry. |
| 06:21.02 | |Jelly| | roflamo |
| 06:21.29 | cog|away | kmcguire: your first part cut off |
| 06:21.59 | kmcguire | Where did it cut off from? |
| 06:22.06 | kmcguire | (which words) |
| 06:22.09 | cog|away | 23:19 <+cog|away> that no mo |
| 06:22.09 | cog|away | 23:19 <+cog|away> is where it ended |
| 06:22.09 | |Jelly| | "eals. But, I just feel that these add-ons for these few MMORPG games should be released with fewer or easier to manage features, or the add-on author should just include a notice in the add-on that no mo" |
| 06:22.37 | kmcguire | Im going to bed, but I was thinking. Sorry if I offended anyone with my ways of thinking. I think my comments are not viewed from my perspective which makes them difficult to understand about the donate and pay for add-on type deals. ... (continued above) |
| 06:22.55 | cog|away | I have a feeling if we got to the heart of your side, you'd find it's rooted in more emotional thinking than you might be aware |
| 06:22.57 | End | no mo? |
| 06:23.04 | Arrowmaster | "Also whenever someone gets the latest addition and they login to your faction, it will say that you MUST download the latest addon within 3 days or it will shutdown the addon." |
| 06:23.17 | *** join/#wowuidev dustice (n=dustin@pool-173-71-51-53.dllstx.fios.verizon.net) |
| 06:23.17 | cog|away | I don't mean that in any way but from having the experience countless times on the forums today |
| 06:23.31 | Arrowmaster | somebody talking about carbonite... damn if i had known that before i would have fucked up everybody on my realm with carbonite |
| 06:23.43 | |Jelly| | roflamo |
| 06:23.44 | |Jelly| | please |
| 06:24.02 | kmcguire | Oh, me. Yeah, money is not going to the grave with me. |
| 06:24.11 | End | I had no idea Carbonite was that nasty. |
| 06:24.21 | Torhal | Not nasty. Shitty nasty. |
| 06:24.28 | Cairenn | hmmmm? |
| 06:24.30 | End | That's a sort of nasty |
| 06:24.33 | Torhal | Indeed. |
| 06:25.27 | Sixen | Who is "Imagem"? |
| 06:25.39 | cog|away | http://cogwheel.info/upload/files/facepalm.jpg |
| 06:25.51 | cog|away | |Jelly|: ^ |
| 06:25.53 | End | cog|away: harhar |
| 06:26.20 | |Jelly| | Thank you. @kmcguire: http://cogwheel.info/upload/files/facepalm.jpg |
| 06:26.34 | Iriel | Sixen: It's me.. sadly the happy forum is scrambling identities |
| 06:26.37 | Cairenn | |Jelly|: whahuh Imizael? |
| 06:26.55 | cog|away | Use of that image in no way reflects the opinion of the person depicted therein |
| 06:26.59 | cog|away | <.< |
| 06:27.01 | |Jelly| | I suppose I should have spent more time finding a logical starting point of my copy pasta, but what I was trying to show you was where it cut off at the end. |
| 06:27.01 | cog|away | >.> |
| 06:27.17 | Iriel | copy pasta? |
| 06:27.19 | Iriel | Sounds delicious |
| 06:27.23 | |Jelly| | Cairenn: Just their logic on the forums. It astounds me that people /actually/ think that way. |
| 06:27.25 | Sixen | Iriel: Ah, you were my first guess. I checked the sig on Iriel and figured it out, :P. |
| 06:27.32 | |Jelly| | You want some, Iriel? :) |
| 06:27.52 | Cairenn | |Jelly|: linkage? I am wondering what you're commenting about |
| 06:28.01 | Cairenn | and trying to search on the forums is useless |
| 06:28.14 | *** join/#wowuidev Esamynn (n=chatzill@WoWUIDev/WoWI/Featured/Esamynn) |
| 06:28.14 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+v Esamynn] by ChanServ |
| 06:28.42 | |Jelly| | Cairenn: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15864747900&sid=1&pageNo=2#30 <<Start there |
| 06:29.05 | |Jelly| | Or hell, start at the beginning but I think you'll quickly get the idea of the thread. |
| 06:29.11 | Cairenn | o.O |
| 06:29.18 | Cairenn | I've read 3 posts, that's sufficient |
| 06:29.18 | cog|away | hmm... i have imizael on ignore >< |
| 06:29.43 | |Jelly| | Her argument to KD3 is laughable too. |
| 06:29.48 | |Jelly| | <PROTECTED> |
| 06:30.04 | *** join/#wowuidev Shirik (n=Shirik@conspiracy/developer/Shirik) |
| 06:30.04 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o Shirik] by ChanServ |
| 06:30.35 | Shirik | o.o |
| 06:30.37 | Shirik | I think freenode is brokded |
| 06:30.41 | Shirik | VERSION |
| 06:30.41 | End | no |
| 06:30.43 | End | you're broke |
| 06:30.46 | End | stop being broke |
| 06:30.46 | Shirik | oh god |
| 06:30.55 | Shirik | Why the hell do all your clients respond to that |
| 06:31.00 | Shirik | That is so wrong |
| 06:31.41 | Shirik | I guess that must be some obscure protocol I've never seen before |
| 06:33.53 | *** join/#wowuidev quoin (n=quoin@ppp121-44-150-155.lns10.syd7.internode.on.net) |
| 06:35.02 | Shirik | I founded chocolate covered strawberries! |
| 06:35.10 | kmcguire | Here is a interesting point, which is not rooted in anything emotional. |
| 06:35.13 | kmcguire | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15864747900&sid=1&pageNo=3#body158627208811_126599670843_switch2 |
| 06:35.22 | kmcguire | You guys think it is true? |
| 06:35.47 | cog|away | which one? imizael? |
| 06:35.56 | cog|away | if so, imizael is an established troll... O.o |
| 06:35.59 | kmcguire | Miini |
| 06:36.11 | cog|away | no, i answered all those |
| 06:36.15 | Fisker- | what can you do about it? |
| 06:36.15 | cog|away | in that thread and on facebook |
| 06:36.18 | kmcguire | Oh |
| 06:37.05 | Fisker- | wtf |Jelly| |
| 06:37.23 | |Jelly| | wtf Fisker- |
| 06:37.35 | cog|away | people have been coming to the forums to attack for-pay addons off and on for years |
| 06:37.50 | cog|away | Conclusions were mostly solidified long ago |
| 06:38.17 | cog|away | This is really stirring up old arguments, but it obviously magnifies the intensity |
| 06:38.43 | cog|away | I think that's why so many of us are so upset |
| 06:39.08 | cog|away | Every indication so far has led us to believe blizzard was supportive of the community we'd built |
| 06:39.14 | cog|away | commercial and free alike |
| 06:39.26 | kmcguire | I think the authors should be able to put donation information in their add-on. |
| 06:39.39 | Fisker- | i was first |Jelly| :( |
| 06:40.05 | |Jelly| | huh? |
| 06:40.27 | cog|away | I agree |
| 06:40.41 | cog|away | ftw |Jelly| |
| 06:40.45 | cog|away | ftl Fisker- |
| 06:41.06 | *** join/#wowuidev Guest14303 (n=Shirik@ip72-219-226-248.dc.dc.cox.net) |
| 06:41.29 | Thunder_Child | cog|away, if they termed it "it is against the ToU to use a pay for addon", would that work better for you? |
| 06:41.52 | Thunder_Child | (and they edit the ToU) |
| 06:42.07 | End | I think that'd belong in the EULA actually |
| 06:42.14 | Thunder_Child | ok, then there |
| 06:42.18 | cog|away | Thunder_Child: if they do that, they'd at least have a case |
| 06:42.19 | Thunder_Child | doesnt really matter |
| 06:42.20 | End | the EULA already claims that you can't use "certain" addons |
| 06:42.34 | cog|away | but it would make my h8 grow |
| 06:42.38 | End | what I really don't like is that the guidelines make it sound like they're attacking addon authors |
| 06:42.44 | Thunder_Child | cog|away, one would assume they at least talked to their lawyer befroe posting this |
| 06:42.52 | End | (Well, and the asking for donation thing seems like too much) |
| 06:42.52 | Thunder_Child | laywers* |
| 06:43.04 | Thunder_Child | before* |
| 06:43.15 | cog|away | Thunder_Child: no kidding :P doesn't mean it's right ... (morally, legally, take your pic) |
| 06:43.16 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o Guest14303] by ChanServ |
| 06:43.54 | Thunder_Child | cog|away, morally...maybe. legally...i dunno, i bet they covered their ass |
| 06:44.18 | End | well, yeah, they covered their ass years ago with that extremely vague line |
| 06:44.57 | cog|away | Thunder_Child: right now i'm pretty convinced they wouldn't be able to push it in court. There are many relatively easy ways they can change that though |
| 06:44.59 | kmcguire | There has to exist a reason why blizzard says no. Cog, any ideas? |
| 06:46.17 | kmcguire | I mean, as much as a dislike pay for this or advertisements in-game. I still would like to understand exactly why. |
| 06:46.28 | cog|away | I don't think i missed any in the 42 page thread on the forums >< |
| 06:47.18 | cog|away | The thing is, my position isn't the one that needs defending because it's the status quo (though I do defend it anyway). Blizzard needs to come up with a reasonable justification to make the change. |
| 06:47.35 | Thunder_Child | i dont like pay for addons myself however i dont think thats a problem....the ad supported ones i think shouldnt be allowed though. |
| 06:47.54 | |Jelly| | Server is busy. *sigh* |
| 06:48.01 | Torhal | If I'm understanding this correctly, "charge for services related to the add-on" would cover technical support or even mailing physical media. Not that any of that is necessary for an addon, but really...what else could that mean? |
| 06:48.46 | cog|away | Torhal: data updates, early releases, extra features, preferential treatment for bug reports, you name it |
| 06:49.15 | Torhal | Eww. |
| 06:49.28 | kmcguire | Where did you guys read that at? |
| 06:49.37 | Torhal | That just smacks of "We threw that in because....well...because!" |
| 06:49.43 | cog|away | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15864747207&sid=1 |
| 06:50.07 | cog|away | Torhal: no kidding :( |
| 06:51.49 | Torhal | cog|away: Honestly, it's almost as if an anti-GPL fanboi wrote it. |
| 06:52.00 | Cairenn | lawyers wrote it |
| 06:52.52 | Arrowmaster | lawyers that probably either dont fully understand the technical terminolgy they used and how we can interpret it, or lawyers that dont give a damn about us |
| 06:52.56 | cog|away | garbage in, garbage out... lawyers only know blizzard's side of what addons are |
| 06:53.12 | Torhal | Yah, but those provisions are almost completely the opposite of the "protections" the GPL provides. |
| 06:53.21 | Arrowmaster | exactly |
| 06:53.53 | cog|away | i wonder if anyone on their legal team is following the thread >< |
| 06:54.06 | End | probably not at all |
| 06:54.14 | Cidan | Seriously? Seriously? |
| 06:54.18 | Arrowmaster | im waiting for a lawyer to say that those terms are incompatible with the GPL so all GPL addons can be legally pulled in protest |
| 06:54.29 | Cidan | Why did this asshole cop have to give me a GDMF court summons for a broken headlight. |
| 06:54.35 | Cidan | That I didn't even know about. |
| 06:54.51 | Cidan | See, now I'm going to have to make an ass of him in court. |
| 06:55.05 | |Jelly| | rut roah |
| 06:56.04 | kmcguire | wow, I never realized UT2004 had that in there for their mods. |
| 06:56.45 | Cidan | I highly doubt the terms would be incompatible with the GPL |
| 06:57.06 | Cidan | In fact, I'm almost sure of it. |
| 06:58.00 | Arrowmaster | ut2k4 is a propritary dev enviroment |
| 07:00.05 | Shirik | Well I just found out something really stupid |
| 07:00.11 | Shirik | Is anyone here on Verizon FIOS? |
| 07:00.18 | Arrowmaster | i wish i was |
| 07:00.23 | Shirik | I'm not so sure anymore |
| 07:00.36 | Shirik | I was helping out a friend and I came across something really wierd |
| 07:00.48 | Shirik | He had port 4567 open. I ask him what it was and he had no idea. |
| 07:00.57 | Shirik | I go googling and find out it's some verizon control port that's open to the world |
| 07:01.08 | Arrowmaster | on their modems? |
| 07:01.19 | Shirik | It seems to use an HTTP server which, so far, I can only get to respond with "405 Method Not Allowed" |
| 07:01.26 | Shirik | but something about that just seems completely wrong |
| 07:01.28 | Shirik | Arrowmaster: Yes |
| 07:01.43 | Odlaw | time to google your modem model. |
| 07:02.00 | Shirik | or maybe router, Arrowmaster |
| 07:02.08 | Shirik | not quite sure how they do it, maybe it's a combination modem/router? |
| 07:02.13 | Shirik | "Actiontec" is all I really got |
| 07:02.31 | *** join/#wowuidev Arrowmaster` (n=Arrow@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/ResponsibleForEverythingAndNothing/Arrowmaster) |
| 07:02.33 | Cidan | It's the modem |
| 07:02.42 | Shirik | Cidan: Rofl at your court summon |
| 07:02.45 | Shirik | don't you love VA? |
| 07:02.48 | Cidan | No |
| 07:02.51 | Cidan | Bunch of fuckers. |
| 07:02.56 | Cidan | What the hell is this shit. |
| 07:03.02 | Shirik | My brother's license is suspended btw, lol |
| 07:03.03 | Cidan | It's a god damned headlamp, just tell me |
| 07:03.06 | Cidan | for what? |
| 07:03.10 | *** join/#wowuidev d87_ (n=x@host89-251-107-29.hnet.ru) |
| 07:03.10 | Shirik | um |
| 07:03.23 | Shirik | somehow he managed to get 4 speeding tickets all in a month |
| 07:03.32 | Shirik | Admittedly, they were all like 5mph |
| 07:03.33 | Shirik | or so |
| 07:03.39 | Shirik | but I still laughed at him |
| 07:03.44 | Cidan | 5 over? |
| 07:03.46 | Shirik | yes |
| 07:03.47 | Cidan | seriously? |
| 07:03.49 | Cidan | 5 over? |
| 07:04.00 | Shirik | each one individually wouldn't do anything |
| 07:04.10 | Shirik | but the points add up, and since he's only 18, he has a very small window |
| 07:04.12 | *** join/#wowuidev WobWork (n=Wobin@124-168-131-220.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 07:04.13 | End | after the first, or maybe even second, I'd start driving a bit slower :P |
| 07:04.20 | Shirik | End: That's what I told him :P |
| 07:04.22 | Cidan | No no, see. |
| 07:04.24 | Cidan | 5 over. |
| 07:04.25 | End | hehe |
| 07:04.31 | Cidan | Who the hell writes a ticket for 5 over? |
| 07:04.33 | *** join/#wowuidev Wobin (n=Wobin@124-168-131-220.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 07:04.42 | Shirik | VA cops |
| 07:05.10 | Shirik | Also omg |
| 07:05.15 | Shirik | did you know there's a Godiva at Fair Oaks? |
| 07:05.23 | Cidan | Yes? |
| 07:05.31 | Shirik | I wish I knew that a long time ago :< |
| 07:05.33 | Cidan | And... at Tyson's? |
| 07:05.40 | kmcguire | Here, is a interesting view on the situation, http://journal.fibreculture.org/issue5/kucklich.html. |
| 07:06.01 | kmcguire | Our add-ons bring WOW more profit. |
| 07:06.24 | |Jelly| | what a novel concept |
| 07:06.32 | |Jelly| | ... i'm going to bed. night everyone. |
| 07:06.34 | kmcguire | And, to ensure this profit, possibly, by making sure the modifications are always free and accessable? |
| 07:06.45 | cog|away | no that's backwards |
| 07:06.59 | Cidan | Granted, I never go to Fair Oaks |
| 07:07.03 | cog|away | restricting for-pay addons reduces the potential market |
| 07:07.10 | Cidan | Actually, I avoid malls like the plague. |
| 07:07.11 | cog|away | it reduces diversity |
| 07:07.20 | kmcguire | cog, yeah... exactly... well what in the world. |
| 07:07.23 | cog|away | and diminishes the effect the addon community otherwise had |
| 07:07.45 | cog|away | meaning less profit than if they left well enough alone |
| 07:07.47 | Cidan | and not to mention it makes you want to eat babies |
| 07:07.48 | Shirik | Cidan: Maybe wasn't fair oaks |
| 07:07.57 | Shirik | It was same place we ate |
| 07:07.59 | Shirik | what was that |
| 07:08.11 | kmcguire | cog, so why do they care if someone makes money from their add-on? |
| 07:08.14 | Cidan | Tyson's 2, but Fair Oaks has one |
| 07:08.20 | Shirik | oh, ok so that's what I meant |
| 07:08.28 | cog|away | kmcguire: exactly |
| 07:08.45 | cog|away | no one from blizzard has answered that |
| 07:08.50 | Tem | kmcguire, I figure it's a liability move |
| 07:08.51 | cog|away | and maybe no one will |
| 07:09.02 | Tem | suppose someone writes an addon and sells it |
| 07:09.10 | Tem | Bob the user buys it and likes it a lot |
| 07:09.25 | kmcguire | Yeah, the liability issue makes sense. |
| 07:09.26 | Tem | blizzard breaks the addon (not maliciously, it just happened) |
| 07:09.39 | Tem | bob is now angry with blizzard for making something he paid for not work |
| 07:09.43 | End | that's a good point |
| 07:09.49 | cog|away | simple solution. new eula term: "blizzard is not responsible for any loss you suffer due to an addon ceasing to function" |
| 07:09.59 | Tem | and suppose the addon can never be fixed becuase it's a 2.0 type change |
| 07:09.59 | Cidan | bob buys a forum software written in PHP |
| 07:10.13 | Cidan | PHP updates to version 6, breaks forums software |
| 07:10.17 | Cidan | it just happens |
| 07:10.26 | Cidan | does bob sue the people who made PHP? no. |
| 07:10.35 | kmcguire | But, besides the liability reason. I think there is another reason. |
| 07:10.39 | End | PHP isn't a forced upgrade though |
| 07:10.48 | End | unless your host forces it on you |
| 07:10.48 | Cidan | But what if his webhost does it? |
| 07:10.52 | Cidan | Not just that |
| 07:10.54 | End | but PHP wouldn't be liable |
| 07:11.01 | cog|away | Tem: section #8 of the terms covers that |
| 07:11.01 | kmcguire | Why did a game like UT2004 restrict it's users the same way WOW appears to do so, lol. |
| 07:11.09 | kmcguire | Or, it's modders (not users). |
| 07:11.12 | cog|away | if they put it in the eula, there would be no problem |
| 07:11.12 | Tem | *shrug* |
| 07:11.17 | End | anyhow |
| 07:11.22 | Cidan | kmcguire: Explain? |
| 07:11.26 | Tem | suppose it's not bob then that's angry |
| 07:11.31 | kmcguire | I will have to find it, Cidan. |
| 07:11.36 | Tem | but jim the writer of the addon |
| 07:11.37 | End | I'm pretty sure most webhosts have language about software upgrades in their ToU or whatever |
| 07:11.40 | Tem | blizzard just broke my income |
| 07:11.46 | Tem | I r teh angry |
| 07:11.49 | *** join/#wowuidev X3 (n=rmoore08@208.98.166.74) |
| 07:11.56 | cog|away | Tem: no one who's angry about them doing exactly that thinks they have a right to sue |
| 07:12.14 | cog|away | ZorbaTHut is going through that right now |
| 07:12.16 | Tem | if blizzard' |
| 07:12.23 | kmcguire | Cindan, here. It should load right to the post. http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15864747207&sid=1&pageNo=41#body158632708050_777420688_switch1 |
| 07:12.35 | cog|away | there's no precedent that blizzard would be liable for that in the first place |
| 07:12.39 | Tem | s lawyers can actually enforce the policy, then this policy prevents it |
| 07:13.17 | Tem | IANAL so I can't speak to the legality |
| 07:13.22 | Tem | and I don't really care to |
| 07:13.37 | cog|away | you brought it up :P |
| 07:13.51 | Cidan | Okay |
| 07:13.52 | Tem | I may not agree with the policy, but it doesn't make me so angry that I feel like burning bridges |
| 07:13.55 | Cidan | so Ut2004 does this |
| 07:13.57 | ronghail | why would devs roll over before at least getting a cease and desist and checking with a lawyer? |
| 07:14.02 | cog|away | *nod* |
| 07:14.04 | Tem|afk | actually, I was offering a possible reason for the policy |
| 07:14.14 | cog|away | no i understand |
| 07:14.16 | Tem|afk | and it was already the topic of conversation |
| 07:14.25 | cog|away | i was just being a smart ass :P |
| 07:14.32 | Tem|afk | also, 2 am snuck up on me real fast |
| 07:14.37 | Tem|afk | night guys |
| 07:14.38 | cog|away | nn |
| 07:14.39 | Thunder_Child | well an ass anyway |
| 07:14.46 | cog|away | ~rimshot |
| 07:14.47 | purl | ba-dum CHH |
| 07:15.22 | kmcguire | Well, then of course it is just a large blanket of protection for blizzard to do this. If someone happens to make something really great that blizzard can sell then they have it. |
| 07:15.47 | kmcguire | And, they (blizzard) do not have buy it back from the person who made it. |
| 07:15.58 | cog|away | kmcguire: blizzard never has to buy features from addons |
| 07:16.00 | End | hm, does Blizzard even have to send a C&D for anything other than DCMA related complaints? |
| 07:16.19 | cog|away | features aren't covered by copyright. only the code that provides the features |
| 07:16.35 | cog|away | if an addon author got a patent for something their addon does, though... >< |
| 07:16.49 | ronghail | you mean before suing? I doubt anyone sues before sending a c&d first |
| 07:17.11 | kmcguire | cog, Yes the code. They cant implement a XYZ add-on in lua when the author already did it and the author owns the IP to it. |
| 07:17.18 | cog|away | Judge: "So you decided to come to court without even asking them to stop?" |
| 07:17.22 | Shirik | I don't think the lady that got burned by Mcdonalds coffee C&D'd them |
| 07:17.54 | cog|away | kmcguire: blizzard's goal isn't to take our code and use it themselves |
| 07:18.07 | cog|away | and if that's what they were actually trying to do, I don't think it would be so controversial |
| 07:18.10 | ronghail | ok, demand letter. whatever you want to call it |
| 07:18.15 | kmcguire | cog, I agree. |
| 07:18.28 | *** join/#wowuidev kd3|hate`net (n=kd3@wikia/kaydeethree) |
| 07:19.36 | cog|away | Shirik: I think every statement about legality has an implicit "frivolous lawsuits aside" attached |
| 07:19.37 | kmcguire | I want to ask someone why it is standard practice for a game company to include the little modications can not be sold bit. |
| 07:19.44 | Shirik | cog|away :P |
| 07:19.52 | Shirik | No but seriously |
| 07:19.54 | Shirik | you get shot |
| 07:19.57 | Shirik | someone sues you for being shot |
| 07:20.03 | Shirik | er, wait |
| 07:20.10 | Shirik | You sue them for being shot |
| 07:20.24 | Shirik | You don't go "Oh sir, would you please stop shooting me immediately?" |
| 07:20.36 | Shirik | well you might |
| 07:20.43 | Shirik | but it would probably be closer to "OMG WTF ARE YOU DOING" |
| 07:20.58 | cog|away | Shirik: the word "reasonable" gets thrown around a lot in discussion about law. If it's unreasonable to ask them to stop, then you don't need to :P |
| 07:21.07 | Thunder_Child | i think of it as simple as this. Blizz creates rules that are easy to understand but not particularly legaly binding. however they cna change the literature at any time they please to make it hold in court, however this will confuse people |
| 07:21.20 | ronghail | ok I will talk more slowly. you first send them a letter saying pay me 1 million bucks for hurting me with your gun or I will sue |
| 07:21.21 | Thunder_Child | i think they are making it simple so there is no missunderstanting |
| 07:21.40 | Thunder_Child | misunderstanding* |
| 07:21.53 | cog|away | Thunder_Child: right. I'm not misunderstanding what they're saying. I'm disagreeing with what they're saying |
| 07:21.56 | Shirik | ronghail: I understand, it's just 3 AM and I have nothing better to do |
| 07:21.57 | *** join/#wowuidev Vilkku (n=Vilkku@86-60-154-192-dyn-dsl.ssp.fi) |
| 07:22.18 | Thunder_Child | cog|away, why? |
| 07:22.19 | cog|away | They made it very clear that they think they have legal control over our copyrighted works |
| 07:22.22 | ronghail | heh ok |
| 07:22.49 | Thunder_Child | cog|away, my point being is they can change it as they need to make it work for them |
| 07:23.29 | cog|away | Thunder_Child: I've given probably 15-20 different reasons why many times each ranging from legal, to ethical, to economic |
| 07:23.35 | kmcguire | cog, I know what is going on. |
| 07:23.36 | cog|away | RTFM imo :P |
| 07:24.40 | Thunder_Child | cog|away, and all of them fail if what they said was simply for clarity, and they will put it in another way for legaly binding purpases |
| 07:25.17 | cog|away | Thunder_Child: not all of my disagreement is on legal grounds |
| 07:25.18 | Thunder_Child | they CAN do what they need to, i guess i just dont see the point of arguing about it |
| 07:25.23 | cog|away | they shouldn't be doing it in the first place |
| 07:25.29 | Thunder_Child | but they can |
| 07:25.31 | Thunder_Child | simple as that |
| 07:25.39 | cog|away | *sigh* |
| 07:25.42 | jnwhiteh | I don't understand why you're saying they need to change anything to make it binding |
| 07:25.42 | Thunder_Child | you either try to change it |
| 07:25.45 | jnwhiteh | did you read my post? |
| 07:25.47 | kmcguire | This is just blizzard saying. Listen, these are our guidelines. We really want you guys to do what you like, but please try to stay near these boundaries. I think the bits of you can not sell modifications in many games are just things from a old time past. It has just become a standard and no game company is ready to change this and suffer any unforeseen consequences. |
| 07:25.52 | jnwhiteh | this is a policy, and it's nothing more. |
| 07:25.54 | Thunder_Child | or live with it |
| 07:25.57 | jnwhiteh | what kmcguire is COMPLETELY right. |
| 07:26.09 | jnwhiteh | If and when they add it to the ToU and make you agree to it, you can make your decision then |
| 07:26.12 | Corrodias | "please try to stay near these boundaries. or we'll sue you." |
| 07:26.15 | jnwhiteh | this is just a set of guidelines and warnings. |
| 07:26.21 | jnwhiteh | that's ALL it is. |
| 07:26.25 | jnwhiteh | its not legally binding in any way |
| 07:26.28 | cog|away | guidelines and warnings with the threat of legal action |
| 07:26.36 | jnwhiteh | cog|away: that's what a policy does |
| 07:26.40 | jnwhiteh | its a set of guidelines |
| 07:26.41 | Corrodias | which they presumably must be able to make already |
| 07:26.48 | jnwhiteh | and htey believe they have the legal standing to take legal action |
| 07:26.58 | jnwhiteh | that doesn't change it from being JUST a policy. |
| 07:27.10 | kmcguire | They say _may_ though. You know just like.. Hey, if one of you starts trying to loophole around stuff and cause us problems then we will try to stop it. |
| 07:27.39 | kmcguire | You know just formal legal action. Just a formal hey this has to stop. |
| 07:27.39 | jnwhiteh | Indeed, its a spectrum |
| 07:27.45 | End | Legally, I don't think the guidelines are relevant at all |
| 07:27.49 | ronghail | maybe they are just emboldened from the victory over glider and now think their lawyers can bully anyone they want |
| 07:27.50 | jnwhiteh | write an addon that hacks someone's FPS accidentally, they'll blacklist your addon |
| 07:27.53 | cog|away | and the fact that they *can* enforce it doesn't make it a just policy |
| 07:28.01 | jnwhiteh | write an addon that is obfuscated and they'll talk to you |
| 07:28.06 | jnwhiteh | cog|away: that doesn't change a damn thing |
| 07:28.08 | End | the EULA claims they can restrict addons though |
| 07:28.11 | End | that's all they need |
| 07:28.13 | cog|away | write an addon and expect to be compensated for it and they'll sue you |
| 07:28.16 | End | and all that matters |
| 07:28.24 | End | and they've had that for -years- |
| 07:28.28 | jnwhiteh | cog|away: no they will not sue you, but you take a risk of being sued. |
| 07:28.33 | jnwhiteh | there's a complete difference |
| 07:28.38 | jnwhiteh | and they're not suing you based on the policy |
| 07:28.39 | Shirik | a valid point End, and to that note, this policy can be used as saying "This is what might make us invoke that line" |
| 07:28.46 | jnwhiteh | they're suing you based upon whatever legal standing they believe they have. |
| 07:28.56 | Shirik | And even if it wasn't there, Blizzard does have a line saying "We can ban you for anything and everything" |
| 07:29.02 | Shirik | (paraphrased, of course) |
| 07:29.04 | End | indeed |
| 07:29.09 | kmcguire | So does this irc server. |
| 07:29.14 | Shirik | so does just about every service |
| 07:29.24 | kmcguire | I know. =p |
| 07:29.29 | kmcguire | haha I dont like it. |
| 07:29.36 | kmcguire | But, you know. |
| 07:29.41 | cog|away | The fact that they think they have a legal standing is the problem I have with the whole thing. I honestly hope this issue sees its day in court because it has implications far beyond blizzard and wow |
| 07:30.03 | jnwhiteh | cog|away: okay, but can't you leave it alone at that? |
| 07:30.22 | jnwhiteh | They think they do.. you are not going to convince them that they don't.. and a court HAS to decide anyway |
| 07:30.31 | jnwhiteh | you won't know what law, what standing they have until they serve you |
| 07:30.32 | cog|away | jnwhiteh: if someone makes an argument and I think it has a flaw, i'm going to refute it |
| 07:30.38 | jnwhiteh | (you being used as the legal victim here) |
| 07:30.41 | jnwhiteh | cog|away: no argument is being made |
| 07:30.43 | End | I wonder |
| 07:30.43 | jnwhiteh | that's what I don't undestand |
| 07:30.51 | jnwhiteh | no on ein the UI team or legal team is arguing with you |
| 07:30.55 | jnwhiteh | and they're not telling you any details |
| 07:31.00 | cog|away | ? |
| 07:31.09 | cog|away | people are talking in this channel about an issue |
| 07:31.16 | cog|away | i'm engaging in conversatino with them |
| 07:31.20 | cog|away | i'm sorry this upsets you |
| 07:31.30 | jnwhiteh | it doesn't |
| 07:31.39 | ronghail | the best they could do is analogize to glider. but it will be hard for them to make the argument that the addon makes them lose money when it is ok to provide it for free |
| 07:31.47 | jnwhiteh | and I'm not speaking to only you |
| 07:32.00 | jnwhiteh | I need to hop in the shower |
| 07:32.09 | jnwhiteh | but people really need to keep in mind that this is JUST a policy |
| 07:32.15 | jnwhiteh | its a really important point that people are missing |
| 07:32.27 | bleeter | i'm missing lamingtons |
| 07:32.56 | cog|away | what does "just a policy" mean, though? It's a statement of their intentions. Their intentions are hostile, imo. |
| 07:33.21 | Codayus | Personally, I think I missed the memo where it was explained that threats of legal action are fine, just so long as they don't ACTUALLY sue people. A bad policy is a bad policy, regardless. And the proper time to react to it would be as soon as its drafted, not once its begun being applied. :-/ |
| 07:33.22 | jnwhiteh | http://www.wowinterface.com/forums/showthread.php?p=121195#post121195 |
| 07:33.28 | jnwhiteh | those are my thoughts |
| 07:33.33 | jnwhiteh | Codayus: there is no THREAT of legal action |
| 07:33.54 | jnwhiteh | they are just telling you that in extreme cases if they feel justified that could take legal action |
| 07:34.03 | jnwhiteh | would you rather not hear about it before they serve someone? |
| 07:34.05 | cog|away | which is a threat |
| 07:34.12 | jnwhiteh | in some sense of the word, yes. |
| 07:34.13 | Codayus | jnwhiteh: That's a threat. :-) |
| 07:34.17 | End | I think that classifies as a threat |
| 07:34.25 | cog|away | in the sense of the word we're using it... |
| 07:34.58 | Fisker- | nah ronghail |
| 07:34.59 | Fisker- | let me try |
| 07:35.01 | cog|away | and the fact that for-pay addons are #1 emphasizes their hostility towards them |
| 07:35.03 | ronghail | is the concern that just because someone brings suit against you, you lose? or is the concern more the cost of defending even if you win? |
| 07:35.06 | Fisker- | "OMG QUESTHELPER HELPS PEOPLE COMPLETE THE GAME EASIER" |
| 07:35.12 | Codayus | In EVERY sense of the word. You can split hairs all day long, but that's what people MEAN when they talk about it. And the very vagueness (may take actions up to and including formal legal action, in some undefined circumstances) makes it much worse, not better. |
| 07:35.13 | Fisker- | "THATS OVER NINE THOUSANDS MONTHLY SUBSCRIPTIONS!" |
| 07:35.15 | jnwhiteh | cog|away: sure, no one is denying that. |
| 07:35.17 | ronghail | because you don't necessarily lose |
| 07:35.25 | kmcguire | My god I have clarity on a situation. I can go to bed. |
| 07:36.01 | cog|away | you hop in the shower, i'll hop in bed! |
| 07:36.03 | cog|away | nn :) |
| 07:36.57 | Codayus | Really, it's the chilling effect that are the primary concern. I doubt there will be a lawsuit; authors have no real incentive to infringe, and Blizzard has no incentive to sue. |
| 07:37.27 | Fisker- | i like this channel it's exciting! |
| 07:37.49 | End | Codayus: I think you're right there. |
| 07:38.16 | End | The only way we'd see sparks is if Carbonite tries to force Blizzard's hand |
| 07:38.55 | End | many people have said "fuck you Blizzard, I'm done", "doesn't affect me", or some variant |
| 07:39.14 | End | many being most that I've seen |
| 07:39.35 | Codayus | End: Which is a minor concern. I don't see how Blizzard could really win, but people said that about Glider. An actual decision saying that, for example, Blizzard owns addons because they use the WoW API would be a nightmare. |
| 07:39.44 | ronghail | how many of those people are making big bucks from an addon? |
| 07:40.20 | End | Carbonite is the only player that I could see trying to fight Blizzard on this. |
| 07:40.33 | End | And hmm |
| 07:40.37 | *** join/#wowuidev Tewan (n=quassel@adsl-75-55-119-39.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net) |
| 07:40.43 | End | How would precendence work here? |
| 07:40.52 | Tewan | oh, no wonder I've not seen a message in here for quite some time |
| 07:41.01 | End | ~fail Tewan |
| 07:41.02 | purl | Tewan: FAIL! |
| 07:41.02 | Tewan | I wasn't in the channel. ._. |
| 07:41.13 | Tewan | <-- Tewan (n=quassel@adsl-75-34-99-96.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net) has quit (No Ping reply in 30 seconds.) |
| 07:41.20 | Tewan | none of my other channels timed out |
| 07:41.28 | End | on the same server? |
| 07:41.39 | Tewan | yeah |
| 07:41.42 | End | weird |
| 07:42.15 | Codayus | Wonder how much money Carbonite is actually making? I've always tended to assume they were just covering development costs, and maybe a bit more. But... *shrug* I don't pretend to have a clue how many licenses they've sold. |
| 07:42.21 | ronghail | you mean the glider case as prededent? has the appeal been ruled on? appeals court is binding on the lower court. the lower court is just persuasive. blizz would probably just try to file in the same court with the same judge |
| 07:42.38 | End | I meant on unrelated cases |
| 07:42.43 | Tewan | Codayus: I tried them when they first started out |
| 07:42.48 | End | involving, for example, "owning the API" |
| 07:43.14 | Tewan | none of the features I really needed though |
| 07:43.23 | ronghail | I would look in the glider stuff for relevant precedent |
| 07:43.26 | Tewan | I do like the minimap merging though |
| 07:43.42 | ronghail | I found one of the briefs today but haven't read it yet |
| 07:44.36 | End | hm, I guess glider might be actually relevant |
| 07:44.59 | ronghail | I'm a new lawyer with 14 years of sysadmin and dev experience, this whole thing is fascinating and I wish I knew enough to get involved somehow |
| 07:45.17 | End | an actual lawyer *boggle* |
| 07:45.35 | ronghail | working as a programmer |
| 07:46.47 | Codayus | For glider to be relevant they'd need to reference the UI document in the ToU, making it so that just USING QuestHelper violated the terms. |
| 07:47.23 | Codayus | And then they could sue the author for tortuous interference. ...which is frankly, just about the most bizarre idea ever, but offhand I don't see how to distinguish it from the glider case. |
| 07:50.02 | cog|away | this may motivate me to finish getting into law school >< |
| 07:51.22 | ronghail | I loved it. I just don't want to work the ridiculous hours |
| 07:52.09 | *** join/#wowuidev Shaone (i=cfd4880a@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-f47809c35b8a5ca6) |
| 07:56.05 | Fisker- | GENTLEMEN |
| 07:56.10 | *** join/#wowuidev Druidicbeast_ (n=chatzill@pool-173-73-8-207.washdc.fios.verizon.net) |
| 07:56.15 | End | I AM NOT GENTLE |
| 07:56.38 | Fisker- | oh |
| 07:56.39 | Fisker- | sorry |
| 08:06.28 | *** join/#wowuidev Thelyna (n=burp@122-57-249-52.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) |
| 08:09.00 | Shirik | Okay, I'm not sure if I just found a bug in Apache or what |
| 08:09.23 | Shirik | If you open a connection and send "IWAJEFIJ /" the connection is accepted and I am given the home page |
| 08:09.42 | Shirik | If I open a connection and send "IJAWEFEOJWA /index.php" I get 501 Method Not Implemented (as is to be expected) |
| 08:09.49 | Shirik | does that sound like correct behavior? |
| 08:10.01 | Shirik | I expected a 501 from both cases |
| 08:10.21 | bleeter | cvfgnj fu `d e48 dxrgt |
| 08:10.38 | Shirik | i agree |
| 08:10.56 | ronghail | I get the 501 in the first case on mine |
| 08:11.09 | Shirik | huh. |
| 08:12.19 | Shirik | I should point out |
| 08:12.24 | Shirik | ooooo |
| 08:12.28 | Shirik | I think |
| 08:12.35 | Thunder_Child | Shirik |
| 08:12.40 | Thunder_Child | stop having so much fun |
| 08:12.45 | Shirik | btw, my second case was not /index.php, it was /forums/index.php |
| 08:13.13 | Shirik | I think here's what it was: my /index.php is very short, it just does <?php header("302 Found") ?> and redirects to /forums/index.php |
| 08:13.21 | Shirik | or whatever the right PHP code is |
| 08:13.31 | Shirik | I wonder if that overrides Apache's 501 |
| 08:13.36 | Shirik | Doesn't make much sense if it does though, imo |
| 08:13.49 | Fisker- | those who made the megaupload captha should go kill themselves |
| 08:14.23 | Thunder_Child | it kills you to type 4 chars in Fisker-? |
| 08:15.11 | Fisker- | no |
| 08:15.16 | Fisker- | it kills me to read 4 chars like that |
| 08:24.04 | Thunder_Child | L2eyeball |
| 08:24.18 | End | is eyes are working fine |
| 08:24.21 | End | his* |
| 08:24.21 | Tewan | Thunder_Child: lmao |
| 08:24.37 | Tewan | I prefer MU over RS |
| 08:24.39 | End | however, I find issue with his cerebral cortex |
| 08:25.38 | *** join/#wowuidev brykrys (n=chatzill@WoWUIDev/Norganna/Dev/Brykrys) |
| 08:27.26 | Fisker- | hurr durr End :( |
| 08:28.13 | Fisker- | http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=8464836958&sid=1 <-why would you post on a game site for advice on eye vision? |
| 08:28.13 | Fisker- | :E |
| 08:30.32 | Arrowmaster | i find mediafire to be the least annoying of those sites |
| 08:32.32 | Fisker- | http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=827739 <-what the shit |
| 08:32.34 | Fisker- | Dawn of War 11 :D |
| 08:34.13 | Thunder_Child | 11 _. II |
| 08:34.21 | Thunder_Child | s/_./->/ |
| 08:35.47 | Fisker- | Is that so Thunder_Child ? |
| 08:35.59 | *** join/#wowuidev Gotai (n=thewill@ip503d59c0.speed.planet.nl) |
| 08:36.12 | Thunder_Child | thats is Fisker-, it's a damn fun game |
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| 09:09.19 | Wobin | http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=putney,+uk&sll=37.331663,-122.03035&sspn=45.488111,64.160156&ie=UTF8&ll=51.46386,-0.215499&spn=0.00881,0.015664&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=51.463944,-0.215446&panoid=aTUlkjN4ZDh_2sWaOxjDPg&cbp=12,108.92165653818441,,1,18.931506849315052 |
| 09:15.34 | Zootfizzle | Keylogger imho |
| 09:17.57 | Zootfizzle | You can't wave at me and make me disappear |
| 09:18.07 | Zootfizzle | Sorry :) |
| 09:18.28 | Zootfizzle | NoooO~! |
| 09:18.33 | bleeter | yesssssss |
| 09:18.55 | bleeter | wait, that's me.. loatheb |
| 09:20.34 | Shefki | Humm you're up late. |
| 09:20.51 | bleeter | Sun Mar 22 20:20:50 EST 2009 |
| 09:21.17 | bleeter | late as in the late shefki arthur shefki? |
| 09:21.40 | bleeter | ...waiting... |
| 09:22.02 | Shefki | As in 2:20 am late. |
| 09:22.12 | bleeter | ...still waiting... |
| 09:22.18 | bleeter | noob OT... waiting... |
| 09:22.29 | bleeter | *ahem* Loatheb... no... erm |
| 09:22.33 | bleeter | oh stuff this |
| 09:22.40 | Shefki | Okay now I'm confused. |
| 09:22.41 | bleeter | Wobin: no |
| 09:22.51 | bleeter | Shefki: tis easy |
| 09:22.54 | bleeter | ~emulate bleeter |
| 09:22.55 | purl | ACTION rant RANT rant waaa MOAR COFFEE <sub>GOOD IDEA</sub>rant waa MOAR COFFEE rant rant MOAR MOAR <blink><h1>terribad idea</h1></blink> rant |
| 09:23.05 | bleeter | ^^ was 'waa' phase |
| 09:23.55 | Shefki | I think Zoot isn't talking becuase he's a rhino. |
| 09:24.11 | Shefki | I need help figuring out what to turn him into that's got thick skin and the ability to speak. |
| 09:24.38 | End | turn him into a guy in a rhino suit |
| 09:24.47 | Shefki | Ohh I know... I could turn him into a Taruen. |
| 09:24.53 | Shefki | I bet they have thick skin. |
| 09:25.09 | Shefki | Taruens can talk right? I've never played Horde. |
| 09:25.17 | Shefki | Or do they just grunt a lot? |
| 09:26.22 | Shefki | Darn Gnome crap. |
| 09:26.42 | End | yes, but whose evil twin is he? |
| 09:27.19 | Shefki | Looks like an evil Zootfizzle, but it's hard to tell the good Zootfizzle alraedy has a mustache. |
| 09:27.36 | End | maybe he was the evil twin all along! |
| 09:27.56 | Shefki | hides* |
| 09:29.24 | *** join/#wowuidev Shirik|Berry (n=Shirik|B@conspiracy/developer/Shirik) |
| 09:29.24 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o Shirik|Berry] by ChanServ |
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| 09:42.04 | Fisker- | i'm on a boat |
| 09:43.12 | *** join/#wowuidev Vangual (n=bah@pdpc/supporter/active/vangual) |
| 09:44.12 | Fisker- | Anyone know if some zerg rushers have keke'd the new mobile authenticator? |
| 09:44.57 | Shefki | Fisker-: You constantly confuse me. |
| 09:45.07 | Tewan | lol |
| 09:45.12 | Vangual | i'm sad they i could remotely make sense of that sentence :( |
| 09:45.14 | Tewan | Fisker-: lol |
| 09:45.27 | Vangual | that i* |
| 09:45.31 | Tewan | I feel accomplished |
| 09:45.31 | Tewan | :P |
| 09:45.34 | Fisker- | zerg rushers = koreans |
| 09:45.37 | Fisker- | keke'd = used |
| 09:45.48 | Fisker- | i was just part of some RMT |
| 09:45.56 | Fisker- | had 2x5 silver in my mailbox from "Unknown" |
| 09:46.10 | Fisker- | i'd lol if i got banned :O |
| 09:46.12 | Tewan | RMT? |
| 09:46.21 | Tewan | also, something similar happened to me like that |
| 09:46.24 | Tewan | and I'm still here |
| 09:46.25 | Tewan | :D |
| 09:46.29 | Fisker- | Real Money Trade |
| 09:46.33 | Tewan | ah |
| 09:49.06 | Vangual | the new mobile authenticator is an interesting idea but when thought out, it shortcuts the entire idea of an offline second auth |
| 09:49.22 | Vangual | once you ync with itunes or activesync the next time :( |
| 09:50.05 | Shefki | Vangual: Yeah I think it's a poor substitute for the tokens. |
| 09:51.11 | Vangual | granted the iphone os 3.0 enabled itunes'es can "encrypt" the automatic settings backups made... but you can statically store the password for that encryption on the itunes machine.... |
| 09:51.39 | Fisker- | bah |
| 09:51.44 | Fisker- | i need 11 ebonweave's |
| 09:51.49 | Fisker- | stupid tailor specs |
| 09:52.20 | Shefki | Vangual: What if the app ensures that the seed for the authenticator is never backed up? |
| 09:53.02 | Vangual | i wasn't aware they could could store something out of the auto-backed up storage... but that would work |
| 09:53.09 | Fisker- | Pretty sure it's not Blizzard's first BBQ |
| 09:53.48 | Shefki | Vangual: Not sure, I don't really know much about the iPhone. |
| 09:54.02 | Shefki | Vangual: I know on the palm you can store stuff without it being synced. |
| 09:54.43 | Shefki | Fisker-: I doubt they made the mobile authenticator. Just like they don't make the tokens. |
| 09:55.03 | Vangual | prolly another part of the vasco middleware suite |
| 09:55.13 | Shefki | *nod* that would be my guess. |
| 09:55.51 | Shefki | I'm actualy digging around vasco's site seeing if they have a product. Unfortunately, whoever designed their site is horrible at not hiding stuff. |
| 09:57.00 | Shefki | http://www.vasco.com/documents/literature/pdf/DP%20for%20Mobile%203.0.pdf?VSID=4ae4ac5583e73d0c11e9c4cb957efaf4 |
| 09:57.03 | Shefki | Found it. |
| 09:57.17 | Vangual | even if it's not directly in their product catalogue, can be fairly sure they wrote the code and just let blizzard's new mobile dev handle the appstore for the Vendor nametag |
| 09:58.20 | Fisker- | it's not that Shefki |
| 09:58.29 | Fisker- | First of all Blizzard were hiring for their own dev team |
| 09:58.34 | Fisker- | and secondly it's not a 6-digit code |
| 09:58.39 | *** join/#wowuidev Zor (i=xtzgzore@0x3e42c894.adsl.cybercity.dk) |
| 09:58.47 | Fisker- | or |
| 09:58.49 | Fisker- | lala |
| 09:58.53 | Fisker- | Could be that still |
| 09:58.58 | Fisker- | and the phone devs were just porters |
| 09:59.06 | Fisker- | that mobile thing goes from 6-9 digits |
| 09:59.07 | Shefki | Fisker-: It says 4-16 digit. |
| 09:59.30 | Shefki | Fisker-: They could also be for some other project entirely. |
| 09:59.51 | Arrowmaster | 'starcraft ghost: mobile' |
| 10:00.04 | Fisker- | could be |
| 10:00.15 | Fisker- | But it was specifically mentioned in regards to the mobile authenticator |
| 10:00.19 | Shefki | http://dp4mobile.demo.vasco.com/DP4Mobile/provisioning.jsp |
| 10:00.20 | Fisker- | though could just be bad news |
| 10:00.33 | Shefki | Try it for yourself and see if it's the same. :) |
| 10:01.03 | Fisker- | what's jad again? |
| 10:01.03 | Industrial | http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.839 |
| 10:01.06 | Industrial | its a black pedo meter |
| 10:01.10 | Industrial | o_O |
| 10:01.37 | Industrial | also good morning :p |
| 10:01.54 | Cairenn | morning, yes .. good? eh |
| 10:02.13 | Cairenn | not so much |
| 10:02.17 | Tewan | Industrial: lol |
| 10:02.24 | Industrial | house cleaning day -_- |
| 10:05.11 | Fisker- | fail |
| 10:05.22 | *** join/#wowuidev Shirik (n=Shirik@conspiracy/developer/Shirik) |
| 10:05.22 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o Shirik] by ChanServ |
| 10:05.48 | Fisker- | doesn't work on mine :( |
| 10:06.37 | Industrial | Fisker-: you swim in pizza boxes? :p |
| 10:09.57 | Fisker- | ? |
| 10:11.36 | Industrial | nm |
| 10:18.14 | *** join/#wowuidev Etanol (n=gamle-go@hus134a.bobbnet.com) |
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| 10:21.42 | *** join/#wowuidev Aiiane1 (n=Aiiane@starfire.ST.HMC.Edu) |
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| 10:25.59 | Fisker- | http://classic.battle.net/Images/misc/3-17/Replay_UI%20_Resources_2.jpg <-lazy gits |
| 10:26.58 | Shirik | Fisker- |
| 10:27.03 | Shirik | I will destroy you |
| 10:27.25 | *** join/#wowuidev kd3|hate`net (n=kd3@wikia/kaydeethree) |
| 10:27.50 | Tewan | Fisker-: I now hate you |
| 10:27.54 | Tewan | I want to play SC2 sooooooo bad now. |
| 10:28.06 | Fisker- | no Shirik |
| 10:28.21 | *** join/#wowuidev Zor (i=xtzgzore@0x3e42c894.adsl.cybercity.dk) |
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| 10:28.40 | *** join/#wowuidev _Dave2_ (i=Dave2@freenode/staff/dave2) |
| 10:28.54 | Zyndrome | spawn more Overlords! |
| 10:29.11 | Shirik | baibai nao |
| 10:29.37 | Fisker- | hai |
| 10:29.47 | Fisker- | you must construct additional pylons |
| 10:30.35 | *** join/#wowuidev _Dave2_ (i=Dave2@freenode/staff/dave2) |
| 10:30.37 | Zyndrome | but then I am never thrilled over RTS-games, since I pretty much suck at them |
| 10:30.55 | Zyndrome | SC2 is just "nice" |
| 10:32.13 | Fisker- | i know i'll never stand a chance in multiplayer |
| 10:32.18 | Etanol | anybody knows a deepcopy script that I can copypasta? |
| 10:32.41 | Fisker- | but atleast there'll be custom games |
| 10:33.01 | Fisker- | hero defense or tower defense <3 :3 |
| 10:33.16 | Tewan | lurker defence <3 |
| 10:33.22 | Tewan | defense* |
| 10:34.26 | Zyndrome | oh yeah, liked to play Tower Defense in WC3 on LAN, as I find cooperative games fun (SWAT4 on LAN was a hit) |
| 10:34.30 | Fisker- | your mom is a lurker |
| 10:36.19 | Etanol | anybody knows a deepcopy script that I can copypasta? |
| 10:37.10 | *** join/#wowuidev Thordurin (n=Guest@cpe-98-148-250-28.socal.res.rr.com) |
| 10:37.31 | Tewan | I love when pulls go better than expected |
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| 11:14.45 | Etanol | wait wait |
| 11:15.28 | Etanol | if I set a savedvar table to another table: "self.db.realm.entry = table", does that just create a REFERENCE to table ? |
| 11:15.38 | Ycarene | I have a question about the new UI policy |
| 11:16.03 | Zootfizzle | Etanol: Yes |
| 11:16.12 | Zootfizzle | Err, maybe |
| 11:16.16 | Zootfizzle | Need more info |
| 11:16.18 | Ycarene | Whats to actually stop someone from charging for the download of a UI? |
| 11:16.22 | Etanol | like? |
| 11:16.28 | krka | blizzards lawyers |
| 11:16.47 | Zootfizzle | I might be misunderstanding what you mean by "set a savedvar table to another table" |
| 11:16.51 | Ycarene | But how would that work? |
| 11:16.59 | krka | sort of like glider i suppose |
| 11:17.09 | Etanol | I have a table, that I want to insert into another table |
| 11:17.40 | Ycarene | Glider was sued using a very specific section of the law (and it actually might be considered fair use the way they interpreted it). |
| 11:18.30 | Ycarene | You can't control how the code gets from the author to the user. Once its being executed by the scripting interface sure, but how it gets from point A to point B really isn't anything blizzard can control. |
| 11:18.51 | Zootfizzle | Okay |
| 11:19.16 | Zootfizzle | The way tables work in Lua is via references |
| 11:19.31 | Etanol | yes, but how will that show in my savedvariables? |
| 11:19.42 | Etanol | table is temporary, while the db table is persistent |
| 11:20.07 | Ycarene | If both the author and the user agree on a monetary exchange for the rights to obtain the software I can't see a legal leg for blizzard to stop that. |
| 11:20.58 | Zootfizzle | If you get rid of the values in table after you set the reference, nothing will be saved |
| 11:21.33 | Zootfizzle | If you want to make a copy, you need to do something like self.db.realm.entry = {}; for k, v in pairs(table) do self.db.realm.entry[k] = v; |
| 11:21.45 | Zootfizzle | With an end at the end |
| 11:21.50 | Zootfizzle | Sorry, it's late and I'm tired :) |
| 11:21.56 | Etanol | ok |
| 11:21.57 | Zootfizzle | I should go to bed... |
| 11:21.57 | Etanol | damn |
| 11:22.01 | Etanol | haha |
| 11:22.07 | Etanol | didnt you sleep tonight? |
| 11:22.16 | Zoot|zZz | It's 4:22 AM here! |
| 11:22.21 | Etanol | aha |
| 11:22.25 | Etanol | 12:22 pm here |
| 11:22.40 | Zoot|zZz | Hopefully I sleep until then ;) |
| 11:22.41 | Cairenn | 7:22am here, and not asleep yet, either |
| 11:22.44 | mikma | i just woke up, yey! 1:22pm |
| 11:23.11 | mikma | still in bed tho, hehe |
| 11:23.24 | mikma | <3 Nokia N810 |
| 11:23.55 | Wobin | Goddamnit |
| 11:24.00 | Wobin | Where's Tekkub when you want him? |
| 11:24.05 | mikma | haha |
| 11:24.09 | Wobin | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9og9YZu8gI <-- Pole Dancing Bear =P |
| 11:24.21 | mikma | wobin: i've never wanted him.. |
| 11:24.52 | *** join/#wowuidev spode (i=spode@213.21.89.60) |
| 11:25.10 | Cairenn | rofl |
| 11:26.30 | Ycarene | Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse, but I've been away for a few days and this seems like a somewhat inexplicable policy. |
| 11:27.47 | Cairenn | Ycarene: http://www.cairenn-mmorpg.com/images/smilies/horse.gif |
| 11:27.49 | Cairenn | ;) |
| 11:27.49 | Sargeras | how are you? |
| 11:28.05 | Cairenn | doing well, you? |
| 11:28.28 | *** join/#wowuidev Lukian_ (i=lukian@203.171.70.21.static.rev.aanet.com.au) |
| 11:29.32 | krka | it's dead jim |
| 11:29.36 | Ycarene | It just seems like blizzard is trying to control something they simply have no right to control. |
| 11:30.57 | mikma | their game, their rules. |
| 11:31.27 | mikma | if you don't like the rules, stop playing and show it by not oaying the mintly fee |
| 11:32.53 | Ycarene | mikma - I'm just trying to figure out how they plan to actually enforce it. It would be like microsoft dictating the license terms of the source of any application that ran on windows. |
| 11:33.20 | Sargeras | doing alright |
| 11:33.27 | Sargeras | gf didnt make up here this weekend\ |
| 11:33.32 | Sargeras | so just relaxing |
| 11:33.44 | Sargeras | oh, and Dolby is THE MAN |
| 11:33.45 | Sargeras | Amen |
| 11:33.59 | Cairenn | :) |
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| 11:34.57 | mikma | ycarene: believe it or not but i've watched people talking about the same thing for 3 days now, it's kinda coming over the edge of bukkits already |
| 11:35.21 | *** join/#wowuidev d87 (n=x@host89-251-107-29.hnet.ru) |
| 11:35.36 | Ycarene | ok, ok, I missed the discussion, so I'll stop now. |
| 11:36.50 | krka | you could read up on the forums |
| 11:36.55 | krka | there's a long thread about it |
| 11:37.38 | Cairenn | <PROTECTED> |
| 11:38.13 | *** join/#wowuidev Lyn (n=Lyn@Lf209.l.pppool.de) |
| 11:39.59 | Zoot|zZz | Etanol: If you're still around, self.db.realm.entry = table; table = {} would be way faster |
| 11:40.12 | Zoot|zZz | I was tired, like I said! |
| 11:40.22 | Zoot|zZz | I guess it depends on how many times you save |
| 11:40.24 | nevcairiel | You should honor that zZz in your name, then! |
| 11:40.24 | Zoot|zZz | Maybe faster |
| 11:40.27 | Zoot|zZz | Think about it ;) |
| 11:40.53 | nevcairiel | That won't make your tired go away |
| 11:41.01 | Zoot|mystery | Maybe it will, maybe it won't. |
| 11:41.04 | Zoot|mystery | It's a mystery! |
| 11:41.49 | cbreak | I don't feel bound by the rules blizzard made up, since I never agreed to them :) |
| 11:42.41 | mikma | then stop releasing addons |
| 11:42.47 | cbreak | no :) |
| 11:43.00 | nevcairiel | cbreak: they never agreed to not ban yoru addons either |
| 11:43.08 | nevcairiel | so shrug |
| 11:43.11 | cbreak | I know. they should ban them :) |
| 11:43.19 | Etanol | zoot: really? |
| 11:43.31 | mikma | jesus christ what an ass you are |
| 11:43.35 | Etanol | doesnt table = {} trash both the table and the entry? |
| 11:43.55 | nevcairiel | Also, you don't know if the 3.1 client won't have those rules in one of the accept boxes during first staart :D |
| 11:45.21 | cbreak | table = {} overwrites the variable table's value to point at a newly created table |
| 11:46.21 | cbreak | nevcairiel: if they don't even post them on the Interface Customisation forum, I doubt that |
| 11:46.23 | *** join/#wowuidev cncfanatics (n=cncfanat@WoWUIDev/cncfanatics) |
| 11:47.17 | mikma | cairenn: will the new addon rules be applied to wowi uploaders? will their addons get removed if they are against them? |
| 11:47.46 | Cairenn | we will comply with any requests Blizzard makes of us |
| 11:48.06 | cncfanatics | new addon rules ? oO |
| 11:48.18 | Cairenn | cncfanatics: channel topic |
| 11:48.20 | cbreak | you'll delete all addons that aren't explicitly under an open source license? |
| 11:48.44 | Cairenn | that's not what their policy says |
| 11:49.29 | Ycarene | I don't understand how they could keep the addon from running if it isn't doing anything out of bounds within the scripting system. |
| 11:49.45 | cncfanatics | they couldn't |
| 11:50.01 | mikma | they can put the addon in blacklist |
| 11:50.12 | cbreak | they say that the addon code has to be readable by other people |
| 11:50.27 | cbreak | and if there's no license that allows that, it's normally not allowed |
| 11:50.46 | Ycarene | I'm reminded of how they couldn't do anything about decursive until they did a complete overhaul of the addon system, and that wasn't an outright ban, just a reconfiguration of what the system was capable of. |
| 11:50.46 | cbreak | mikma: black listing is a Sisyphus job |
| 11:51.13 | Ycarene | A blacklist wouldn't work because it could be worked around, just change the name of the addon, or the folder that its on. |
| 11:51.42 | mikma | so that's the reason why they added the bannedaddon.(something) file in 3.1! oh ok |
| 11:51.52 | cbreak | there's an almost infinite number of permutations of any given addon. blacklisting isn't possible |
| 11:51.54 | Ycarene | cbreak - I think that the readability issue is certainly valid, but more for security purposes than anything else. |
| 11:53.02 | cbreak | I don't reject the possibility that blizzard has good intentions |
| 11:53.04 | *** join/#wowuidev Legorol (n=legorol@131.111.213.41) |
| 11:53.04 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+v Legorol] by ChanServ |
| 11:53.26 | cbreak | but I do reject the notion that the creation of addons is under their juristiction |
| 11:53.43 | cbreak | (the usage of addons on clients that connect to their servers is an other matter) |
| 11:53.51 | krka | it's been harder than ever to keep up with this channel log :/ |
| 11:54.08 | mikma | that's because people are bunch of whiners |
| 11:54.16 | krka | yes cbreak that's a common criticism |
| 11:54.17 | Ycarene | The only thing that blizzard has control over is the extension to the lua language that are blizzard specific. |
| 11:54.43 | cbreak | they could change the language in many ways too |
| 11:54.51 | cbreak | like remove {} as table constructor |
| 11:54.58 | Legorol | cbreak: If I release AmazingSoftware (non-open source, proprietary), can users of that software create bug fix patches and distribute them publically, let alone sell them for money? |
| 11:54.59 | cbreak | (not that this would help :) |
| 11:55.08 | Ycarene | cbreak - sure they could, but I doubt they'd go that far. |
| 11:55.25 | cbreak | Legorol: depends on the country I guess. |
| 11:55.33 | krka | Legorol: patches aren't really equivalent to addons though |
| 11:55.36 | Legorol | cbreak: of course they'd be the author of the patch, but there is definitely jurisdiction over the patches |
| 11:55.48 | Legorol | krka: that'd be for copyright law, lawyers, courts and judges to decide |
| 11:55.52 | krka | patches modify blizzards code, addons do not |
| 11:55.57 | cbreak | for example, there are Virus Scanners for windows |
| 11:56.02 | Ycarene | Legorol - You'd have have the rights to the original code. |
| 11:56.03 | Legorol | the point I'm making is not that you are wrong, I just wouldn't make blanket legal statements |
| 11:56.09 | Legorol | this is a much greyer area than you think |
| 11:56.09 | krka | agreed |
| 11:56.10 | cbreak | that try to prevent buffer overflows, essentially "patching" them |
| 11:56.20 | krka | let me rephrase then |
| 11:56.31 | krka | patches for software _may_ not be equivalent to plugins |
| 11:56.38 | Legorol | i agree krka |
| 11:56.48 | krka | technically, they are quite different though |
| 11:56.58 | Legorol | however, when it comes to legalese, I wouldn't be able to say with 100% certainty that Blizzard has no jurisdiction over addons |
| 11:57.06 | krka | plugins depend on an infrastructure that is made intentionally by the software |
| 11:57.11 | Ycarene | krka - depends, a patch can change the source code of an addon, there's a whole language in the "patch" program that lets you do just that. |
| 11:57.11 | krka | patches depend on nothing at all |
| 11:57.13 | Legorol | I do beleive that I should have jurisdiction over patches distributed for AmazingSoftware |
| 11:57.25 | krka | i suppose cracks for games are illegal? |
| 11:57.30 | krka | i.e. violate copyright |
| 11:57.30 | cbreak | in my country I'd be allowed to disassemble a software to make it compatible |
| 11:57.42 | Legorol | krka: depends on country, in the US they probably are |
| 11:57.56 | Legorol | cbreak: disassembling is one of the fair use rights usually |
| 11:58.06 | Ycarene | cbreak - interoperability is often considered a valid reason to hack software, but like you said, its a grey area. |
| 11:58.07 | Codayus | In the US they'd usually fall afoul of the DMCA, not copyright law. |
| 11:58.24 | Legorol | cbreak: making *another* piece of software compatible is usually fine |
| 11:58.26 | cbreak | Addons can't violate the DMCA |
| 11:58.38 | Legorol | what's debated here is whether an AddOn qualifies as an independent piece of software |
| 11:58.40 | cbreak | if they only work with the blizzard provided API |
| 11:58.47 | krka | there's wowbench :) |
| 11:58.56 | Legorol | let me put it this way: |
| 11:59.19 | krka | i've been known to develop addons in a mocked context exposing some of the blizzard api functions |
| 11:59.23 | Legorol | if someone distributed a 3-line patch for AmazingSoftware, that's essentially creating a derivative work, which is why I think it'd violate copyright law |
| 11:59.32 | Ycarene | cbreak - sure they can, supposed I take addon1 and make my own addon called yaddon and add my own features to it, and publish the addon. The author of addon1 could file a DCMA complaint against me for publishing his code without his permission. |
| 11:59.38 | krka | Legorol: i think i agree with that |
| 11:59.46 | krka | but i haven't really thought it through fully :) |
| 11:59.51 | Legorol | nor have I |
| 11:59.56 | cbreak | hmm, right, the takedown part of the DMCA |
| 11:59.57 | Ycarene | Legorol - Derivative works are often covered by fair use. |
| 12:00.02 | Codayus | Legorol: However there's pretty clear case law that creating a program which uses an API does NOT create a derivitive work of the API. |
| 12:00.07 | Legorol | Ycarene: distributing them for money certainly isn't |
| 12:00.08 | cbreak | was only thinking about the "thou shalt not circumvent restrictions" part |
| 12:00.16 | Ycarene | Legorol - But that depends on how derivative it is. |
| 12:00.19 | Legorol | Ycarene: we aren't talking about patches to addons |
| 12:00.22 | krka | are restrictions only technical? |
| 12:00.25 | Legorol | All I am saying is: |
| 12:00.25 | krka | or can restrictions be legal? |
| 12:00.35 | krka | for the DMCA, that is |
| 12:00.46 | Legorol | Patches are clearly on one side of a fence, independent, 3d party software are on another, and addons are straddling the fence |
| 12:00.48 | cbreak | anyway, the DMCA is only an issue in the US |
| 12:01.01 | Legorol | Without being a copyright lawyer, I wouldn't dare make claims as to the legal status of addons. |
| 12:01.19 | Legorol | [11:58] <Codayus> In the US they'd usually fall afoul of the DMCA, not copyright law. <=== silly statement |
| 12:01.23 | krka | i suppose countries without copyright laws can do whatever they want |
| 12:01.26 | Legorol | digital millennium COPYRIGHT act |
| 12:01.44 | Legorol | the DMCA is an appendix to Title 17, the main Copyright Law |
| 12:02.04 | Ycarene | Addons are 3rd party in the part of authorship, but become part of the clients behavior when executed because the scripting language is controlled completely by the client. |
| 12:02.13 | krka | appendix to the american version of copyright law, not the universally agreed copyright |
| 12:02.31 | krka | universally = most developed countries |
| 12:02.38 | Cairenn | except most countries have agreements in place where they honour one another's copyright and intellectual property laws |
| 12:02.41 | Legorol | Ycarene: the nature of the scripting language and level of control probably has nothing to do with it |
| 12:02.49 | Codayus | Legorol: That has nothing to do with my point and you know it. :-) |
| 12:02.52 | cbreak | there's no universally agreed law anyway. Just some treaties that force all countries that signed to implement some things |
| 12:03.04 | Legorol | the issue of Blizzard's legal reach wouldn't be decided by technicalities imo |
| 12:03.25 | krka | nothing escapes blizzards reach |
| 12:03.40 | krka | they beat freecraft, bnetd and glider |
| 12:03.48 | Legorol | Codayus: have you raid the Glider case? Careful about what does and doesn't violate the DMCA. |
| 12:04.05 | cbreak | the judge there was a morron. |
| 12:04.11 | krka | i wonder if glider would have been ok if it was free |
| 12:04.11 | Ycarene | Legorol - Well think of this. Suppose tomorrow that microsoft announced that in windows 7 that all applications had to be windows logo certified in order to run on windows 7 and that this feature could not be turned off. |
| 12:04.16 | krka | legally speaking |
| 12:04.22 | Ycarene | krka - no |
| 12:04.36 | Codayus | Legorol: Uhhh...that doesn't even relate to my point. And to the extent that Glider is relevant to the UI policy, it doesn't relate to the DMCA. |
| 12:04.37 | Legorol | The *current* state of the Glider case, according to *MY* non-lawyer understanding, is that if you cause WoW users to do anything that violates the ToU/EULA, *you* as a third party become liable for contributory copyright infringement and DMCA violations. |
| 12:04.40 | cbreak | Ycarene: like windows vista driver signing in 64bit windows? :) |
| 12:05.04 | Ycarene | cbreak - You can still override it though. |
| 12:05.13 | Legorol | That's the conclusion of the Glider case right now, which is why it's got such an impact |
| 12:05.25 | krka | Legorol: btw, can you sue someone for contrib. copyright infr. if you dont see the primary party (i.e. the user) too? |
| 12:05.27 | Codayus | Legorol: No, the actual issue was tortuous interference, which has nothing to do with DMCA or copyright. |
| 12:05.35 | krka | s/see/sue/ |
| 12:05.39 | cbreak | Legorol: but he didn't cause anyone to do anything. he just gave them the means |
| 12:05.44 | Legorol | krka: yes I believe you can, enforcing your own copyrights is optional |
| 12:05.52 | cbreak | and did glider infrige copyright or violate the dmca? |
| 12:06.16 | Legorol | cbreak: let's not start on that, ok? The court decided that the Glider owner maliciously and knowingly incited users to break the EULA/ToU, therefore he knew goddamn well what he was doing. |
| 12:06.20 | cbreak | as far as I know, the only thing it violated was the eula, and that's between the user and blizzard, not the creator of glider |
| 12:06.23 | Codayus | Well, to clarify, the glider case had several elements, some of which involved copyright law, but your talking about one that didn't. |
| 12:06.27 | Ycarene | Glider was guilty of "creating an unauthorized copy of the blizzard software", which they really shouldn't have been guilty of since the unauthorized copy is made on the same computer as the "authorized" copy and would be considered fair use. |
| 12:06.28 | krka | Legorol: but you'd need actual examples of users who violated the EULA, even if they aren't punished? |
| 12:06.31 | Legorol | It's precisely this kind of "but he didn't know" questions that a court will decide. |
| 12:06.39 | Codayus | http://www.scribd.com/doc/3952427/MDY-Industries-v-Blizzard-Entertainment-D-Ariz-No-062555 |
| 12:06.45 | Codayus | Check out page 22 onwards. |
| 12:06.54 | krka | does this mean that EULA's have been proven to be enforceable? |
| 12:06.56 | Legorol | cbreak: I really suggest you read up on this, I have explained it to many people before, can't be asked to do it again :) |
| 12:07.04 | krka | i always thought they were a case of no one knowing if they held up or not |
| 12:07.11 | Legorol | Glider's liability is *contributory*, via the users who are in direct contract with Blizzard. |
| 12:07.15 | Codayus | krka: Naa, that horse left the barn a long time ago. |
| 12:07.23 | cbreak | Legorol: I think the only thing I'd learn would be that US law and US courts are dumb :) |
| 12:07.30 | Legorol | krka: that's a misconception, EULAs have been enforcable for a while now |
| 12:07.37 | Ycarene | I certainly don't condone what glider was doing, but I think blizzard to a really shady angle at attacking them. |
| 12:07.49 | krka | hmm, i should make a website with a sneaky EULA, forcing people to pay me money |
| 12:08.01 | Legorol | Ycarene: you phrased it wrong. The Glider author wasn't guilty of creating an unauthorized copy. |
| 12:08.08 | krka | 2) ??? 3) profit! |
| 12:08.12 | Legorol | The user *using* Glider was guilty of that, and MDY supplied the *tool* for it. |
| 12:08.35 | Legorol | The case hinges on the players themselves having broken the EULA/ToU, and MDY being responsible for that breach. |
| 12:08.48 | Ycarene | Legorol - but the shady part is that the "unauthorized copy" was never distributed. Its fair use because the copy never leaves the computer. |
| 12:09.04 | cbreak | I don't see why it even created a copy |
| 12:09.05 | Legorol | Ycarene: again, please, without knowing more about the case, don't make statements like that. |
| 12:09.28 | krka | Legorol: i think you are arguing different things |
| 12:09.29 | Legorol | I am not a lawyer but spent considerable time reading through the case files, opinions and commentaries of prominent legal experts etc. |
| 12:09.34 | krka | you are arguing for what is actually legal |
| 12:09.35 | Legorol | So I at least tried to form an understanding. |
| 12:09.41 | krka | Ycarene is arguing if it should be legal |
| 12:10.06 | Legorol | krka: the way I read it, it wasn't a "shouldn't be illegal", but a "it isn't illegal" |
| 12:10.08 | Ycarene | krka - ok, maybe I should spend some more time looking through that case. |
| 12:10.16 | Legorol | Ycarene: let me explain something interesting to you |
| 12:10.29 | Codayus | And again, I should stress that MDY got dinged for several different things, including tortuous interference which had NOTHING to do with copyright, copying, memory, or anything else other than "you encouraged and profited from people breaking the WoW Eula". |
| 12:10.33 | krka | Ycarene: it wasn't me that suggested you read the case :) |
| 12:10.38 | Legorol | The copyright law itself realises that to use a computer software you necessarily need to make copies of it (for example, copy it from HDD to RAM) |
| 12:10.56 | cbreak | I wonder if the new addon policy only applies in the US |
| 12:11.03 | krka | can we copy parts of the code into level 1 cache? |
| 12:11.07 | Legorol | there is a provision in the copyright law that actually provides *blanket* permission to owners of a software to do just that |
| 12:11.16 | Legorol | that's the infamous Section 117 |
| 12:11.17 | krka | cbreak: it's a policy, not a contract |
| 12:11.26 | krka | basically it's just a warning |
| 12:11.32 | Ycarene | But as far as the addon policy goes, I can't see how blizzard can exercise any control on how the software gets from the author to the user. |
| 12:11.34 | krka | if you break it - we will come after you and pwn your ass |
| 12:11.41 | Legorol | or more precisely, Section 117 (a)(1) |
| 12:12.04 | krka | that's an interesting point |
| 12:12.19 | Legorol | Ycarene: Let me give you an analogy. If I manufacture a weapon in my house and start selling it, is that legal? |
| 12:12.28 | Legorol | (You'll see where I'm getting at in a moment) |
| 12:12.29 | krka | if addon X is legal and ok by itself, should not selling addon X also be legal? |
| 12:12.36 | Ycarene | Legorol - it isn't legal to give it away either |
| 12:12.43 | Legorol | that's true |
| 12:12.46 | cbreak | weapons have special laws |
| 12:12.47 | Legorol | ok i'll try to think of a better analogy |
| 12:12.52 | Legorol | krka: think of my example with the patches |
| 12:13.14 | Legorol | you are not allowed to sell derivative works, and if patches can be thought of as derivative works, you can't sell them |
| 12:13.17 | krka | basically we have to come up with a valid example where giving X away for free is legal, but selling it isn't |
| 12:13.23 | Legorol | you wrote them, they are yours, yet you can't sell them |
| 12:13.31 | krka | can you give them for free? |
| 12:13.33 | Legorol | krka: i think you are approaching it from the wrong angle |
| 12:13.34 | Ycarene | Legorol - except addons aren't derivative works. |
| 12:13.46 | krka | why are some angles wrong and others right? :) |
| 12:13.48 | Legorol | i think that the copyright owner gets to decide *how* you can distribute patches |
| 12:13.53 | Legorol | oops sorry |
| 12:13.54 | Legorol | youa re right |
| 12:14.02 | Legorol | it's an interesting angle, so let me approach it from a different one |
| 12:14.15 | krka | aww, we can't finish mine first? :/ |
| 12:14.19 | *** join/#wowuidev [draco] (n=drc@77.187.181.233) |
| 12:14.22 | Legorol | I think distributing the patch publically is illegal, full stop. But the copyright owner can give you permission to distribute it under conditions, for example it has to be free. |
| 12:14.26 | Codayus | If Blizzard owns addon code because they are derivative works, then they can set arbitrary restrictions on distribution. It's quite clear by existing case law IMHO that addons are not, but it could well be the legal theory Blizz is following. |
| 12:14.40 | Legorol | Codayus: I don't think anyone said that Blizzard owns addon code. |
| 12:14.46 | cbreak | addons aren't derivative work |
| 12:14.51 | cbreak | you can develop them without wow |
| 12:14.53 | Cairenn | IANAL & IANABE, but to me, this post of tek's makes a lot of sense: http://www.wowinterface.com/forums/showpost.php?p=121383&postcount=198 |
| 12:15.03 | Legorol | There is a very big difference between who the owner of the code is, and how you can distribute it |
| 12:15.13 | Legorol | cbreak: i think you are misapplying the term "derivative work" |
| 12:15.27 | krka | sure |
| 12:15.35 | Legorol | you don't need to have a copy of AmazingSoftware either to make a patch for it |
| 12:15.39 | krka | Cairenn: i also agree that blizzard has the right to block the addons |
| 12:15.51 | cbreak | Legorol: I don't need to derive anything from WoW to make an addon |
| 12:15.52 | Codayus | You could say Blizzard has just implicitly asserted ownership since otherwise they wouldn't be able to restrict your ability to sell addons. :-) |
| 12:15.52 | krka | we aren't however discussing that point |
| 12:16.10 | krka | blizzard has the freedom to block whatever they want in their game client |
| 12:16.28 | Matrix110 | Cairenn thats what people dont understand :P |
| 12:16.32 | krka | i am not as sure that they have the freedom to control distribution |
| 12:16.50 | Codayus | Tekkub is claiming that the policy doesn't ACTUAL dictate distriubtion. If he's right, then sure, no problem, Bliz is within their rights. |
| 12:17.01 | Matrix110 | Codayus it doesnt in any way |
| 12:17.13 | Matrix110 | And I dont get why people dont get it |
| 12:17.36 | Codayus | I think the policy clearly does claim the ability to dictate distribution, however. |
| 12:17.37 | Legorol | Codayus: I think that you are wrong there. You don't have to have ownership taken away from you to not be able to distribute something. |
| 12:18.13 | Matrix110 | Codayus no Blizzard just clarifies that they dont allow AddOns getting distributed in another way inside THEIR game |
| 12:18.29 | Legorol | Matrix110: no i don't think so |
| 12:18.34 | cbreak | I haven't seen an addon that's actually distributed in game |
| 12:18.40 | Ycarene | It dictates distribution in a round-a-bout way by threatening the author with sanctions if its not distributed per their policy. |
| 12:18.43 | Legorol | I think the language of the policy makes a statement of what can and can't be done *outside* the game |
| 12:18.56 | Codayus | Matrix110: You can't distribute an addon INSIDE the game. And they clearly aren't saying "you may not use an addon which has been distributed commercially". |
| 12:18.59 | Legorol | It does make statements about the rights of a third party (the author) |
| 12:19.06 | Matrix110 | thats not what I meant |
| 12:19.22 | Matrix110 | You can sell/distribute your code however you want but Blizzard wont allow AddOns within their game that are distributed in a "bad" way |
| 12:19.36 | krka | that's not how people have interpretered the policy |
| 12:19.46 | Matrix110 | But thats the policy exactly :P |
| 12:20.21 | krka | if your interpretation is correct, then i don't see any controversy, legally |
| 12:20.25 | Codayus | Matrix110: The policy as written simply does not say that. And a policy that did say that would use really different wording. |
| 12:20.25 | cbreak | Matrix110: "failure to abide by them may result in measures up to and including taking formal legal action" |
| 12:20.43 | cbreak | they say "if you sell addons we'll sue you!" |
| 12:20.45 | Codayus | That may well be what Blizzard meant, but they didn't say it, or anything that could easily be confused with it. :-( |
| 12:20.57 | Matrix110 | thats because lawyers write that stuff |
| 12:21.03 | Legorol | Matrix110: ok i see where you were getting at |
| 12:21.04 | Codayus | Matrix110: Then there's less excuse. |
| 12:21.13 | Legorol | Matrix110: and I think you are right |
| 12:21.32 | cbreak | "All add-ons must be distributed free of charge." |
| 12:21.37 | Matrix110 | Lawyers always write a simple thing complicated so half the word doesnt understand it correctly because its their job |
| 12:21.46 | Legorol | I agree with Tekkub's post and that's how I understand the situation as well. |
| 12:21.47 | cbreak | so if I give you an addon of me and you give me 1$, blizzard will sue me |
| 12:21.54 | cbreak | that's what they want to do |
| 12:21.55 | Ycarene | Legorol - If I make an addon and offer it for a price, and a user is willing to pay that price, it is a private transaction between me and the user. Blizzard is trying to state the terms of a transaction that has no bearing on them, it is between me and the user. The moment the addon starts doing things "In game" that is against their policy, it becomes their business. |
| 12:22.29 | krka | this is interesting http://www.law.washington.edu/lct/swp/Law/derivative.html |
| 12:22.35 | nevcairiel | They can't stop you from selling your addon, but they can stop your addon from working if they don't like you or your business |
| 12:22.36 | krka | To understand the implications of this method of boundary drawing, consider for a moment the Acrobat Reader plugin for Firefox, and assume that the browser is licensed under the GPL. The plugin offers its own set of user interface buttons and is capable of rendering file formats that are exotic to Firefox. Does this seem like a derivative work of Firefox? Whatever our intuition may tell us, the answer depends - according to the GPL's drafters |
| 12:22.41 | Ycarene | Blizzard is trying to make wow addons like sex, you can give it away, but you can't sell it. |
| 12:22.45 | Legorol | Ycarene: you are only partially correct. If I start selling patches to Microsoft Word and start charging for it, even though I never bought Word and have no relationship with Microsoft, it is still very much Microsoft's business. |
| 12:22.57 | krka | so basically, it's a derivative work if it's compiled and linked into the software |
| 12:23.00 | krka | otherwise, no |
| 12:23.08 | Ycarene | Legorol - But a patch is very different than an original work. |
| 12:23.25 | Matrix110 | cbreak no but they have every right in the world to disallow your addon inside wow then and maybe claim their IP be removed from your Code |
| 12:23.35 | Legorol | Ycarene: in extreme cases, it's probably easy to distinguish them. But the line between them is at best grey. |
| 12:23.40 | Legorol | and i'm not sure they are different legally |
| 12:23.42 | cbreak | Maldivia: there's no IP of them in my code |
| 12:23.47 | cbreak | and still they threaten to sue me |
| 12:23.56 | krka | Legorol: did you read my snippet, and/or the link i posted where it is written? |
| 12:23.59 | cbreak | just because I sell an "Donate me PLZ" addon with obfuscated code |
| 12:24.08 | Legorol | krka: i read yours, not the link |
| 12:24.18 | cbreak | sorry, Matrix110 |
| 12:24.19 | krka | do you agree with the conclusion+ |
| 12:24.21 | Matrix110 | People are simply totally overreacting as always :P |
| 12:24.26 | Legorol | krka: digesting |
| 12:24.32 | Ycarene | Legarol - a patch requires one to actually modify software that doesn't belong to them, the addon doesn't modify software and it doesn't require the author to disassemble the blizzard client to construct it. |
| 12:24.38 | nevcairiel | People always like to see the darkest black they can find in anything |
| 12:24.38 | krka | everything worth reacting to is worth overreacting to |
| 12:24.39 | cbreak | I think you didn't read the text of the policy Matrix110 |
| 12:24.43 | Matrix110 | I did |
| 12:24.47 | *** join/#wowuidev Shirik (n=Shirik@conspiracy/developer/Shirik) |
| 12:24.48 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o Shirik] by ChanServ |
| 12:24.48 | nevcairiel | otherwise you wouldn't have something to cry about |
| 12:24.54 | Matrix110 | People simply dont want to understand it |
| 12:24.58 | cbreak | they say they will sue you if you make an addon like that |
| 12:25.03 | Matrix110 | No |
| 12:25.13 | cbreak | "failure to abide by them may result in measures up to and including taking formal legal action." |
| 12:25.19 | cbreak | -> they'll sue you |
| 12:25.21 | Matrix110 | "may" |
| 12:25.33 | cbreak | "All add-ons must be distributed free of charge." If you sell an addon |
| 12:25.39 | Arrowmaster | may just means will whenever they stop being lazy |
| 12:25.41 | Fisker- | nerf hunters |
| 12:25.51 | Fisker- | an arrow from storm peaks just hit me in dalaran :O |
| 12:26.07 | Arrowmaster | did you just bubble hearth? |
| 12:26.11 | Fisker- | ^^ |
| 12:26.27 | Legorol | krka: i'll go read the link |
| 12:26.28 | Codayus | The policy is pretty clear, and it isn't written to just restrict people using addons that meet certain criteria. |
| 12:26.30 | Fisker- | couldn't take a shaman, 2 death knights, a moonkin druid and a hunter |
| 12:26.33 | Matrix110 | It basically means: Slap you on the hand if you dont stop they will disable the AddOn ingame and if you circumvent that (however) they will might take actions if you are living in a state where they actually can sue :P |
| 12:26.33 | krka | also from here: |
| 12:26.35 | krka | http://wiki.lawguru.com/index.php/Derivative_work |
| 12:26.39 | krka | Legorol: that link is probably better |
| 12:26.46 | krka | here's a quote from there: # |
| 12:26.47 | krka | # If the original software was designed to accept plug-ins or drivers using a defined mechanism, such a driver or plug-in does not form a derived work. |
| 12:27.15 | krka | now, i am not sure with what authority the wiki states it |
| 12:27.26 | nevcairiel | Are people still trying to come up with the "its all blizzards code anyway" talk? |
| 12:27.26 | krka | but if it's correct, it seems pretty clear to em |
| 12:27.40 | Matrix110 | nevcairiel I think people just need something to discuss :P |
| 12:27.44 | krka | nevcairiel: the question is whether addons are derivative works or not |
| 12:27.58 | Arrowmaster | they clearly arent |
| 12:28.18 | Matrix110 | well some addons for sure are ;) |
| 12:28.27 | nevcairiel | Is my code derivative work of the C library because i use a set of APIs from it? |
| 12:28.30 | krka | Matrix110: yes, but not of blizzard code |
| 12:28.51 | Matrix110 | krka there are AddOns using Blizzard Code actually |
| 12:28.55 | Matrix110 | :P |
| 12:28.56 | Arrowmaster | since i can write something that uses pure lua and works with the standard lua binaries downloaded from lua.org |
| 12:28.58 | nevcairiel | well some addons surely just copy/pasta blizzard code and modify it to their need |
| 12:28.59 | Fisker- | stupid sun |
| 12:29.00 | Codayus | Obviously aren't. Using an API doesn't make a derivitive work, plugins aren't derivitive works, Windows software isn't owned by MS, Sony has no ability to stop people making Playstation games just because they made the platform... |
| 12:29.00 | Fisker- | nerf it |
| 12:29.00 | krka | right, but that's not common, i think |
| 12:29.07 | Matrix110 | Its not |
| 12:29.11 | Matrix110 | thats why I said some addons |
| 12:29.22 | krka | that's a whole different discussion, and not relevant here |
| 12:29.24 | Codayus | There's just too many cases over the decades to plausibly make that argument, IMHO. |
| 12:29.29 | Arrowmaster | Codayus: actually i think sony can |
| 12:29.34 | [draco] | Codayus: I'm not that sure about sony |
| 12:29.44 | [draco] | afaik you have to buy a licence |
| 12:29.51 | krka | games aren't plugins |
| 12:29.55 | Codayus | Arrowmaster: Not because of that. They have to pursue it via trademark law, patents, copy protection circumvention, etc. |
| 12:30.23 | nevcairiel | is a application a plugin to the OS? |
| 12:30.42 | cbreak | is an application a plugin to the CPU? |
| 12:31.05 | krka | nevcairiel: you could argue that, actually |
| 12:31.13 | cbreak | you'd lose that argument |
| 12:31.17 | krka | since applications generally aren't derivative works of the OS |
| 12:31.30 | *** join/#wowuidev Ycarene (n=Ycarene@24.116.56.41) |
| 12:31.31 | nevcairiel | Its essentially the same really, WoW is the OS, addons are applications |
| 12:31.42 | *** join/#wowuidev Robsato (i=5065af6a@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-8a776d2fa13a8afe) |
| 12:31.50 | Codayus | None of which apply here. :-) Check out the old Nintendo/Tengen arguments. |
| 12:32.10 | Matrix110 | Lets just settle on this: Basically NOBODY argueing here will have any problems with this policy at any time besides maybe a handful of people :P |
| 12:32.11 | nevcairiel | we use APIs and "header files" (as in templates) provided by the OS to make our addons |
| 12:32.26 | Codayus | It's not like there's any real distinction between plugins and programs. An API is an API, and using one doesn't make a derivitive work. *shrug* |
| 12:32.48 | krka | Matrix110: the people arguing mostly do it for fun, and for the theory of it |
| 12:32.59 | *** join/#wowuidev Shirik (n=Shirik@65.14.229.26) |
| 12:33.00 | krka | only ZorbaTHut here seems to be actually affected |
| 12:33.05 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o Shirik] by ChanServ |
| 12:33.18 | ZorbaTHut | krka, the nUI guy is pretty affected also, though he's not in here AFAIK |
| 12:33.21 | nevcairiel | Some people on the forums don't seem to be having "fun" arguing, they seem to be near implosion or something |
| 12:33.24 | Arrowmaster | so is the nUI author |
| 12:33.27 | *** join/#wowuidev Ycarene (n=Ycarene@24.116.56.41) |
| 12:33.31 | Matrix110 | I think if you would bring such a case infront of 20 courts (without them exchanging any information) you would get 20 different results in the end :P |
| 12:33.33 | krka | nevcairiel: arguing on the internet is fun to some : |
| 12:33.34 | krka | :) |
| 12:33.35 | cbreak | krka: my lifelong dream to sell the "Dontaion Nag Ware" addon in obfuscated code was foiled! |
| 12:33.39 | krka | especially if it's heated |
| 12:33.41 | ZorbaTHut | obviously carbonite is as well, though I don't feel a lot of sympathy towards them ;) |
| 12:34.02 | Shirik | krka: s/some/most/ |
| 12:34.42 | Codayus | Since Carbonite seems to be the proximate cause of this mess, I feel a lot less sympathy towards them than I did last week. :-/ |
| 12:34.56 | cbreak | what's wrong with them? |
| 12:34.57 | krka | yeah, i can see why blizzard doesn't like carbonite, a professional dev team making money from extending their platform |
| 12:35.00 | ZorbaTHut | also, I gotta mention that, even more so than most other addons, QH is not a derivative work of WoW. QH has a huge amount of backend code and a relatively small frontend layer, and I run large chunks of QH directly within Lua as part of my test/optimization system. |
| 12:35.01 | nevcairiel | The ad-supported version pushed it, imho |
| 12:35.09 | krka | that said, i am not sure it's wrong |
| 12:35.22 | Matrix110 | And QH asking in chat for donations if I read correctly |
| 12:35.36 | Arrowmaster | in the chatframe, not chat |
| 12:35.38 | Shirik | potentially, nevcairiel, but that's purely speculation |
| 12:35.47 | ZorbaTHut | I think I got a total of three complaints about donations during the four months I had that thing up |
| 12:35.53 | ZorbaTHut | in fact I'm getting a lot of people mentinoing that they never saw it at all |
| 12:35.55 | nevcairiel | Shirik: sure, i just stated and opinion :) |
| 12:36.04 | Matrix110 | And Blizzard just doesnt want such AddOns used in their game and thats it |
| 12:36.05 | nevcairiel | *an |
| 12:36.06 | Codayus | I suspect the ad-supported version was actually the key concern, but I suspect we'll never know. |
| 12:36.07 | Matrix110 | nothing to discuss about |
| 12:36.08 | krka | most people don't bother complaining, they just uninstall it |
| 12:36.15 | ZorbaTHut | krka, true |
| 12:36.17 | *** join/#wowuidev Ycarene (i=jporterf@24.116.56.41) |
| 12:36.31 | Shirik | Random question |
| 12:36.33 | nevcairiel | Or they used wowmatrix |
| 12:36.35 | nevcairiel | heh |
| 12:36.37 | ZorbaTHut | although I'm not sure why someone would react that vehemently to a one-day-per-week thing that happens on login ;) |
| 12:36.37 | Fisker- | finally |
| 12:36.40 | Shirik | What if I made an addon whose entire purpose was to display ads |
| 12:36.45 | Fisker- | 11x22 slot bags |
| 12:36.48 | cbreak | the biggest complaint about QH I have is that random guild members disconnect because of it |
| 12:36.51 | ZorbaTHut | nev, well, yes :) but I've talked to a lot of them and they say they didn't |
| 12:36.51 | Corrodias_2 | Shirik: i wouldn't install it |
| 12:36.57 | ZorbaTHut | cbreak, most of that ought to be fixed now. v1 will help it further |
| 12:37.02 | Ycarene | Shirik - Who the hell would use it? |
| 12:37.02 | Shirik | Is it advertising or is it its explicit purpose? |
| 12:37.12 | Codayus | The QH donation requests were REALLY onobtrusive, if memory serves. |
| 12:37.14 | Shirik | Ycarene: Same people that sign up for those "free junk mail" |
| 12:37.20 | Shirik | for coupons or whatever |
| 12:37.25 | nevcairiel | Shirik: the explicit purpose is advertising, what now! |
| 12:37.47 | Shirik | I should point out I have not gone to sleep since yesterday so my brain might be a little fried |
| 12:38.06 | nevcairiel | More then usual, you mean |
| 12:38.48 | nevcairiel | Also, just go sleep? :) |
| 12:38.49 | Matrix110 | Blizzard would prolly disable it if people report it Shirik "Add-ons may not be used to advertise any goods or services." |
| 12:39.03 | Shirik | nevcairiel: flight today |
| 12:39.08 | Shirik | I'm actually in between 2 flights right now |
| 12:39.16 | nevcairiel | sleep in plane? |
| 12:39.24 | Shirik | Too loud |
| 12:39.29 | Shirik | besides I do some of my best work on planes |
| 12:39.52 | krka | Legorol: did we lose you to legal documents now? O_o |
| 12:40.00 | Matrix110 | In what kind of planes do you fly? |
| 12:40.05 | cbreak | I wonder if macros that advertize enchants in /2 are banable too |
| 12:40.13 | krka | plain ones? |
| 12:40.25 | nevcairiel | Planes are only loud during start and ladning, imho |
| 12:40.27 | Matrix110 | Well I meant because its too loud :P |
| 12:40.30 | krka | i for one like the xy-plane |
| 12:40.36 | krka | i get dissy from the xz-plane |
| 12:40.41 | nevcairiel | lol |
| 12:40.51 | Fisker- | where you flying to Shirik ? |
| 12:41.02 | Shirik | Daytona beach, where I go to school? |
| 12:41.11 | Matrix110 | Earbuds or ineat headphones and you wont hear anything inside a plane besides at start/Landing |
| 12:41.14 | Matrix110 | *inear |
| 12:41.17 | Shirik | Those things suck |
| 12:41.20 | Fisker- | aww |
| 12:41.24 | Shirik | either they hurt your ears or they don't stay in |
| 12:41.25 | Fisker- | i was hoping you were coming to see me :3 |
| 12:41.41 | Shirik | (I tend to be in the latter group) |
| 12:41.56 | krka | industrial ear protectors ftw |
| 12:42.09 | Matrix110 | Shirik then you didnt find the correct ones yet |
| 12:42.11 | nevcairiel | cbreak: they probably aimed at out-of-game services and goods, but then .. does gold selling qualify as out-of-game? Its hard to word it to hit gold selling/power leveling ("ingame" services) and not enchanting services .. |
| 12:42.53 | cbreak | they could just disallow adds for eula violating services |
| 12:43.27 | nevcairiel | The ToU already disallows ads of that kind, and always did |
| 12:43.29 | cbreak | and gold selling/powerleveling does violate the eula, either the "thou shalt not share your account" rule, or the "thou shalt not sell gold for â¬" rule |
| 12:43.35 | Industrial | krka: sorry? |
| 12:43.54 | cbreak | industrial ear protectors are heavy and clunky |
| 12:44.05 | nevcairiel | lol |
| 12:44.06 | Matrix110 | uhm that depends on which one you use |
| 12:44.08 | cbreak | I've seen a sound-canceling earphone set yesterday. Wonder how good they work |
| 12:44.22 | Matrix110 | cbreak rather burn your money in a fire :P |
| 12:44.39 | Legorol | krka: i skimmed through the links. If there is one thing these links demonstrate is that the legal status of plugins/addons is very convoluted. Hence I wouldn't make any statements about where wow addons fall. |
| 12:45.05 | Legorol | I'd refrain from statements that appear on the forums such as "blizzard has no legal right to ... blah blah", because they may very well do |
| 12:45.07 | Matrix110 | Inears > every noise canceling crap expensive³ headphones |
| 12:45.14 | cbreak | my statement is: I don't think the policy is enforcable in any way |
| 12:45.16 | Matrix110 | But you need to use the correct size |
| 12:45.17 | Legorol | It might well take a court to decide if they do or don't :) |
| 12:45.25 | cbreak | but I doubt that stops blizzard trying |
| 12:45.34 | krka | Legorol: hmm... you don't even consider it clear that addons aren't derivative works of blizzards code? |
| 12:46.01 | Legorol | cbreak: also bear in mind how these things work. A corporation has to protect its ass and show that it at least tried. Otherwise their legal battles later might be more difficult |
| 12:46.06 | krka | fwiw, i do think glider may have been a derivative work, if it modified the wow client |
| 12:46.13 | [draco] | which it didnt |
| 12:46.20 | Legorol | krka: glider never modified the client |
| 12:46.22 | nevcairiel | I wonder if people would stop arguing if blizz would make the wording more clear that they have no intention to stop you from selling them, but rather the intention of just marking those addons as "illegal", and thus scaring the users away from them already. |
| 12:46.24 | Legorol | not on disk, nor in memory |
| 12:46.30 | krka | yeah i dont know much about glider, really |
| 12:46.40 | Legorol | that's why i'm clarifying it for you |
| 12:46.41 | krka | did they use derivative work stuff in the court though? |
| 12:46.53 | Legorol | Glider only read WoW's address space, and sent keyboard/mouse input to windows/WoW |
| 12:47.04 | Legorol | nope, derivative works didn't come up in the case |
| 12:47.16 | krka | since they apparently mostly through everything at them and went with whatever stuck :P |
| 12:47.21 | krka | *threw |
| 12:47.29 | krka | my english is worse than usual today |
| 12:47.31 | Legorol | well quite a lot of things stuck |
| 12:47.44 | Legorol | I'll try to summarise it, the way I understand it (consult your lawyer if you want to be sure). |
| 12:47.53 | Legorol | They got Glider mainly on three things: |
| 12:47.57 | krka | it annoys me how much my typing depends on the phonetics of the word |
| 12:48.34 | Legorol | 1) Blizzard and users have a contract (EULA/ToU). MDY actively and maliciously incited users to breach that contract, and interfered with the contract. "Tortious interference with contract". |
| 12:48.53 | Legorol | This part of the case had little technical discussion, and was focused more on what was and wasn't posted on MDY's website, things like that. |
| 12:49.00 | ZorbaTHut | I really feel like Blizzard's legal team has done a fantastic job in getting court decisions that are absolutely horrible :( what with both Glider and bnetd |
| 12:49.07 | Legorol | The judge ruled that yes, MDY was naughty, and this is probably the clearest part of the case |
| 12:49.56 | nevcairiel | ZorbaTHut: you would rather see glider continue because they couldn't get a better decision? |
| 12:49.57 | Legorol | 3) The judge ruled that WoW players are breaching Blizzard's copyright when using Glider. (The arguments leading up to this point are convoluted, I won't go into them right now). Therefore, the users are violators. |
| 12:50.12 | Legorol | Indirectly, therefore, MDY is liable for "contributory copyright infringmenet" |
| 12:50.14 | ZorbaTHut | nev, I don't believe Glider was or should have been illegal in any way, no. |
| 12:50.24 | Legorol | In other words, the coypright breach is from the users, and MDY is helping them. |
| 12:50.35 | Legorol | ZorbaTHut: can you at least read what I'm typing ;) it's summarising the case |
| 12:50.45 | ZorbaTHut | I fundamentally believe that people have the right to run whatever they wish on software that they own, on their own machines. Blizzard has the right to ban people for whatever reason they want, of course. |
| 12:51.40 | ZorbaTHut | legorol, yeah, I am, but I'm pretty familiar with the case myself :) |
| 12:51.40 | Shirik | ZorbaTHut: What you believe is irrelevant. It's illegal. Period. |
| 12:51.40 | Shirik | That is what the courts are for. |
| 12:51.40 | Legorol | ZorbaTHut: excellent point, but did you know that the judge ruled that the users don't *own* WoW? |
| 12:51.40 | Legorol | That was an important part of the case. |
| 12:51.40 | ZorbaTHut | shirik, I don't believe it should have been. The law isn't something that's fixed - it's interpreted by judges, with the help of lawyers. I believe the judge made a mistake, partially thanks to Blizzard's lawyers. |
| 12:51.40 | Legorol | One of the crucial concepts is whether WoW users are owners, or merely licensors. This has to be decided on a case-by-case basis. |
| 12:51.50 | Legorol | In this case, the judge ruled they are not owners. |
| 12:51.53 | ZorbaTHut | legorol, yes, and I think that's a bad ruling as well. I don't agree with the "licensed software" position - I think that software is pretty clearly sold and distributed. |
| 12:51.54 | Shirik | Judges can have different interpretations, sure, but they are the ones that say what the law means. |
| 12:52.06 | Shirik | That is their sole purpose |
| 12:52.08 | ZorbaTHut | shirik, until it's overturned by a higher judge, or new laws, yes. |
| 12:52.15 | Legorol | ZorbaTHut: I'm not saying it's right or wrong, or if i disagree with it :) I'm just explaining the case as I understand it. |
| 12:52.29 | Legorol | anyway, i got derailed |
| 12:52.32 | Legorol | so: |
| 12:52.37 | cbreak | WoW users are owners of the software, they bought it after all. but they are also, if they play, subscribers of the service |
| 12:52.40 | Shirik | Again, "until" is irrelevant. It's illegal unless stated otherwise from this point on. |
| 12:52.47 | ZorbaTHut | I'm not claiming that, if someone had to judge laws based on the exact current set of American law, it would be legal. I'm saying that I believe that choice was a mistake, and that it shouldn't be illegal. |
| 12:52.49 | Legorol | 1) users breached contract, MDY helped them, MDY is liable for "tortious interference with contract". nothing to do with copyright |
| 12:53.29 | Shirik | cbreak: I would argue you are the owner of a CD |
| 12:53.31 | Legorol | 2) users broke copyright when running Glider (according to the judge at least), MDY helped them, MDY is liable for "contributory copyright infringement". this part hinges on whether the users are breaking copyright or not, very debatable and complex (go read the case files) |
| 12:53.34 | Shirik | The CD contains software you do not own. |
| 12:53.39 | Matrix110 | You do not OWN any software you bought |
| 12:53.42 | Shirik | You did not purchase the software, you purchased the CD |
| 12:53.43 | Matrix110 | (if you didnt write it) |
| 12:53.53 | Shirik | The CD came with a license to use the software |
| 12:53.54 | Matrix110 | what Shirik said :P |
| 12:53.56 | ZorbaTHut | man, seriously. <Zorba> I think blue is a bad color for the ceiling. <Shirik> Look at the ceiling! Any fool can see it's blue. <Zorba> Yeah, but I think blue's a bad color. I think it should be yellow. <Shirik> YELLOW IS IRRELEVANT, IT IS BLUE, CAN'T YOU SEE |
| 12:53.56 | cbreak | Shirik: I go into a shop and say "I want to buy WoW". |
| 12:53.57 | Shirik | not a certificate of ownership |
| 12:53.58 | cbreak | they give it to me |
| 12:54.00 | cbreak | I pay |
| 12:54.02 | cbreak | so I bought it |
| 12:54.05 | Matrix110 | No |
| 12:54.06 | cbreak | simple :) |
| 12:54.13 | Matrix110 | Thats just daily simplifying |
| 12:54.30 | Shirik | cbreak: And ATC told one of our pilots to take off from taxiway echo |
| 12:54.35 | ZorbaTHut | matrix, actually, there have been a few court cases showing that cbreak's interpretation is accurate |
| 12:54.42 | cbreak | I never signed a license contract. so only the implicit contract counts |
| 12:54.43 | Shirik | A lot of language is simplified |
| 12:54.43 | ZorbaTHut | unfortunately there have also been court cases showing that it isn't |
| 12:54.52 | Legorol | 3) similar to 2, users are circumventing Warden's protections when running Glider (according to the judge at least). MDY provided the tool for them, so MDY is liable for stuff under DMCA's circumvention device stuff. this part, again, hinges on whether the users are circumventing Warden or not when using Glider, very debatable and complex |
| 12:54.53 | ZorbaTHut | it's really quite unclear at the moment, and different courts contradict each other |
| 12:55.12 | *** join/#wowuidev MoonWolf (n=MoonWolf@dhcp-077-250-125-249.chello.nl) |
| 12:55.28 | cbreak | courts don't matter anyway, only the law as it is written does |
| 12:55.32 | Matrix110 | Blizzard owns WoW |
| 12:55.33 | Legorol | In conclusion: apart from 1), which has nothing to do with copyright and in which MDY is clearly liable *regardless* of the technicalities, |
| 12:55.37 | Matrix110 | Users license it |
| 12:55.39 | Shirik | cbreak, courts decide what the law says. |
| 12:55.44 | ZorbaTHut | cbreak, that's not actually true - courts interpret the law and modify it in that sense |
| 12:55.47 | Matrix110 | Microsoft OWNS Windows not anyone using it |
| 12:55.49 | cbreak | yeah, but they decide that every time |
| 12:55.49 | Legorol | the case mostly hinges on whether the users are themselves breaching copyright or not. |
| 12:55.50 | nevcairiel | If i were to "own" software, no copyright law would stop me from decompiling and using the stuff i found in my own software |
| 12:55.51 | nevcairiel | thats just bad |
| 12:55.53 | Shirik | That was one of the first cases in the history of the US |
| 12:55.57 | ZorbaTHut | matrix, users buy copies of WoW, just like users buy copies of books |
| 12:55.58 | Shirik | judicial review |
| 12:55.59 | Legorol | The scary part of the case is that the judge thought they are (read the details of why and how) |
| 12:56.12 | Shirik | Legorol: What's scary to me is how the judge understood these technical details |
| 12:56.16 | Shirik | (or if he did) |
| 12:56.23 | Shirik | His opinion seemed to me like he did know |
| 12:56.24 | ZorbaTHut | the fact that my copy of Watchmen is the intellectual property of (whoever) doesn't mean that I can't do whatever I want with my copy, as long as I don't make further copies |
| 12:56.25 | Matrix110 | ZorbaTHut yes but thats different |
| 12:56.26 | Shirik | it was very well written |
| 12:56.34 | ZorbaTHut | I can rip it up and turn it into an art installation, for example, and they can't stop me |
| 12:56.40 | ZorbaTHut | matrix, I don't believe it is, and I don't believe it should be. |
| 12:56.40 | Matrix110 | if i OWN software that means I wrote it our bought it from the poeple that wrote it(or they work for me) |
| 12:56.52 | Legorol | Shirik: I saw two things in the texts. One is that it seems the judge is well aware of the practicalities, and understands what he is talking about. |
| 12:56.53 | nevcairiel | ZorbaTHut: if its your, why can't you make more copys then? |
| 12:56.57 | ZorbaTHut | Yes. The same thing that it means when you buy a book. |
| 12:57.03 | ZorbaTHut | nev, because of copyright. I don't own the copyright, so I can't make copies. |
| 12:57.10 | cbreak | Matrix110: I bought WoW from the people who owned it |
| 12:57.17 | cbreak | some online game shop. |
| 12:57.19 | cbreak | now it's mine. |
| 12:57.25 | Legorol | The other is that I think he understands that there are lots of nuances here, and has to be careful about how he phrases his conclusions. |
| 12:57.26 | Matrix110 | No they didnt own it |
| 12:57.28 | ZorbaTHut | However, the First Sale Doctrine basically states that I'm allowed to do anything else I want |
| 12:57.29 | cbreak | I can sell it again too |
| 12:57.35 | cbreak | if I wanted to |
| 12:57.44 | ZorbaTHut | including resell it to someone else (as long as I don't copy it) or tear it up or modify it |
| 12:57.56 | ZorbaTHut | I could even modify it, *then* sell it, as long as no copy is made. |
| 12:58.02 | Shirik | Blizzard specifically says you can do that |
| 12:58.10 | Shirik | not the modify part |
| 12:58.12 | Shirik | the sell to someone else part |
| 12:58.13 | ZorbaTHut | this is how it works with books, and this is how it *should* work with software and music |
| 12:58.16 | Legorol | cbreak: you bought the box, the DVDs, the manual etc. You didn't buy any rights to WoW, or even rights to the *copy* of WoW in the box. |
| 12:58.25 | ZorbaTHut | but for some reason the software and music publishers are trying to turn it into a non-transferable license. |
| 12:58.28 | cbreak | Legorol: I bought World of Warcraft. |
| 12:58.35 | ZorbaTHut | (well, it's not hard to figure out why, it's a moneygrab) |
| 12:58.39 | Shirik | cbreak: You bought a box that said World of Warcraft on it |
| 12:58.45 | Shirik | and a CD that said World of Warcraft on it |
| 12:58.47 | Legorol | There is an important distinction (often not clear from license agreements such as the EULA) between rights in the original work, and rights to the particular *copy* you are holding in your hand. |
| 12:58.54 | cbreak | and the game that IS world of warcraft |
| 12:59.05 | cbreak | (including the implicit right to use it) |
| 12:59.08 | nevcairiel | cbreak: a phyical copy of the game, not the game as a whole |
| 12:59.10 | Legorol | cbreak: sorry but Judge David G. Cambell disagrees with you. |
| 12:59.13 | Matrix110 | No you bought a physical media that has a installer on it that installs WoW AFTER YOU AGREED TO THE LICENSE |
| 12:59.29 | krka | meh, the discussion turned boring :(/ |
| 12:59.33 | cbreak | Legorol: why should I care what some foreign judge thinks? |
| 12:59.36 | Shirik | A license, which you agreed to, which has specific restrictions on what you may and may not do |
| 12:59.46 | Legorol | cbreak: ah, you are not in US, sorry :) |
| 12:59.52 | Legorol | cbreak: in that case this debate is moot |
| 12:59.56 | Shirik | Okay, what country, cbreak? |
| 12:59.57 | *** join/#wowuidev cncfanatics (n=cncfanat@WoWUIDev/cncfanatics) |
| 13:00.05 | Shirik | Shall we move to international treaties? |
| 13:00.11 | cbreak | Matrix110: I bought the game, that's what I paid for |
| 13:00.11 | Matrix110 | in the EU we have the same ruling |
| 13:00.20 | Shirik | No, you bought the box |
| 13:00.21 | cbreak | if I just wanted to buy the CD I would buy them empty |
| 13:00.25 | Shirik | and the contents of the box |
| 13:00.27 | Shirik | The game was not in the box |
| 13:00.30 | nevcairiel | I know that its exactly the same here in germany, you buy a physical copy and the manual etc, and a license to use it |
| 13:00.32 | Shirik | A CD was in the box |
| 13:00.37 | Legorol | I apologise, the implicit assumption is usually that we are discussing the situation in the US |
| 13:00.39 | cbreak | Shirik: switzerland |
| 13:00.41 | *** join/#wowuidev foxlit (n=foxlit@0x573e6bae.alb2nxx18.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk) |
| 13:00.48 | Matrix110 | No...thats just common thinking because it would be WAY TO complicated else |
| 13:01.01 | Ycarene | Shirik - You think, if I published a paper book that said before the first chapter, "You may not resell this book", that would have any legal force? |
| 13:01.29 | Matrix110 | Ycarene thats not the official law so no |
| 13:01.34 | Legorol | Ycarene: wrong analogy. |
| 13:01.44 | Matrix110 | If the law forbids reselling books then it has legal force :P |
| 13:01.48 | Legorol | Ycarene: the WoW license does not in any way limit your ability to transfer the physical media. |
| 13:01.50 | Shirik | The book is merely a copy. I can resell WoW my CD if I want to also. |
| 13:02.04 | nevcairiel | Yeah you can sell the CD and the box |
| 13:02.10 | nevcairiel | yet the account is not transferable |
| 13:02.11 | Shirik | I CANNOT start adding words to the book, then resell this modified book. |
| 13:02.16 | nevcairiel | well not allowed to, anyway |
| 13:02.20 | ZorbaTHut | shirik, yes you can |
| 13:02.22 | ZorbaTHut | that's actually quite allowed |
| 13:02.23 | Shirik | That would be a violation of copyright. |
| 13:02.23 | cbreak | the account is not bought. it's not part of WoW |
| 13:02.27 | ZorbaTHut | no, it wouldn't |
| 13:02.28 | Ycarene | The contents (arrangement of the ink on the pages) does not belong to you, it belongs to the writer, should he not have the right as to how this is distributed after the first sale? |
| 13:02.30 | ZorbaTHut | there's no copying involved |
| 13:02.33 | ZorbaTHut | modification is not copying |
| 13:02.38 | Shirik | No? What are all those other words I included? |
| 13:02.47 | Shirik | I'm pretty sure they are from the old book. |
| 13:02.52 | Legorol | A better analogy would have been if the book said, on the first page: "you, as the first buyer, is the only person allowed to *read* the contents of this book. YOu may not let anyone else read it, nor let anyone else read it after you sell the book to them" |
| 13:03.08 | ZorbaTHut | the words that were in the old book are still part of the old book. As long as you're not copying them, you're fine |
| 13:03.13 | ZorbaTHut | you have the right to resell the book in any form you may wish |
| 13:03.26 | Shirik | May I ask how you managed to get more words in without copying them? |
| 13:03.30 | ZorbaTHut | you could rip the spine off and sell it one page at a time, you could crumple up the pages and sell a wastebasket full of book |
| 13:03.32 | Ycarene | Shirik - Buy a used college text book and look inside. Chances are there is a LOT of writing that wasn't on there when it rolled off the press. |
| 13:03.34 | nevcairiel | You're not allowed to create a derivate work on the book and then resell it, what you basically do by addon words |
| 13:03.38 | cbreak | Shirik: pencil |
| 13:03.45 | nevcairiel | *adding |
| 13:03.48 | ZorbaTHut | you could cut up the pages, paste them on a new piece of paper, and insert new words in between them |
| 13:03.51 | cbreak | in the margin |
| 13:03.56 | Shirik | Ycarene: I have never been a fan of reselling books, either |
| 13:03.59 | cbreak | add notes |
| 13:04.01 | Shirik | I find that equally wrong |
| 13:04.01 | cbreak | explenations |
| 13:04.01 | ZorbaTHut | *but*, you have to buy one copy of the original book for every one you resell. You can't *copy* the words in the book. |
| 13:04.04 | Shirik | I also find it stupid, of course |
| 13:04.06 | Legorol | Techncially, annotating a text book then selling it is illegal. Practically, noone cares. |
| 13:04.09 | Shirik | because having those books is very useful |
| 13:04.15 | ZorbaTHut | You can, however, add as much stuff as you want, or chop it up, modify it, and resell that. |
| 13:04.15 | Ycarene | legorol - yet, I could ignore that statement and lend, sell or give the book away as I please. |
| 13:04.20 | Shirik | But that's not hte point being debated here |
| 13:04.27 | ZorbaTHut | legorol, I don't actually believe that is illegal |
| 13:04.34 | Ycarene | Shirik - Why would you care? |
| 13:04.34 | ZorbaTHut | unless, again, you're making copies of it. |
| 13:04.38 | nevcairiel | ZorbaTHut: at least here, the original author can get you for mis-representing his work |
| 13:04.50 | ZorbaTHut | nev, only if you're claiming it's the author's original work, I think |
| 13:05.02 | cbreak | If I don't want to keep an old school book, I resell it. Including all the notes and marks I made. And I seriously doubt that violates any law. |
| 13:05.04 | ZorbaTHut | if you just say "this is Zorba's re-interpretation of this book", you're in the clear |
| 13:05.05 | Legorol | ZorbaTHut: I don't think the creation of derivative works requires copying. |
| 13:05.20 | Shirik | Ycarene: Sorry, what? |
| 13:05.22 | ZorbaTHut | legorol, I don't think it does either. Derivative works are fine. Copying isn't. :) |
| 13:05.32 | Legorol | ZorbaTHut: annotating a book and reselling it is distributing a derivative work |
| 13:05.38 | Legorol | YOu are certainly not distributing the original |
| 13:05.57 | cbreak | the original is under the pencil marks |
| 13:06.01 | nevcairiel | You would have to clearly mark that it is annoted by you, and not the original author |
| 13:06.02 | Ycarene | shirik - I meant to ask why you had issue with the reselling of a book. |
| 13:06.02 | Legorol | ZorbaTHut: you are not making a copy, you are creating a derivative work |
| 13:06.04 | *** join/#wowuidev Spellshaper (n=Spellsha@HSI-KBW-085-216-104-053.hsi.kabelbw.de) |
| 13:06.05 | ZorbaTHut | legorol, okay, there's some confusion here. I'm not talking about buying one copy of the book, then making notes on it, then making a bunch of copies and selling those |
| 13:06.12 | Shirik | There are so many illegal things done with books these days that nobody cares about |
| 13:06.15 | ZorbaTHut | I'm saying, you take one book, you make notes in the margin, you sell the new book-with-notes-in-margin |
| 13:06.19 | Legorol | ZorbaTHut: yes i understand |
| 13:06.20 | ZorbaTHut | that is pretty much explicitly legal |
| 13:06.25 | Shirik | How many times have you gone to a library and used a copying machine to copy a page? |
| 13:06.32 | Legorol | Shirik: fair use |
| 13:06.34 | ZorbaTHut | copyright applies to *copying*. Nothing more. |
| 13:06.38 | Shirik | I thought that might be argued Legorol |
| 13:06.40 | ZorbaTHut | As long as you're not copying something, copyright just doesn't factor in. |
| 13:06.46 | Shirik | That's debatable imo |
| 13:06.50 | Shirik | what if I copy an entire chapter |
| 13:06.53 | Legorol | ZorbaTHut: incorrect, copyright applies to copying *and* the creation of derivative works. |
| 13:06.55 | Shirik | (Which I have seen done) |
| 13:07.04 | Shirik | Ycarene: I don't really; it was just a random side point |
| 13:07.19 | ZorbaTHut | legorol, only if you're actually copying things in some way - whether that be their plot, their wording, or anything else of that sort |
| 13:07.20 | Shirik | And now my flight is boarding, so while I don't agree with any of you but Legorol, I will leave him to debate my matters :P: |
| 13:07.20 | nevcairiel | As long as you buy one copy of the original book for any book you sell |
| 13:07.22 | nevcairiel | who cares! |
| 13:07.27 | ZorbaTHut | it's not restricted to actual photocopying :P |
| 13:07.28 | Ycarene | Shirik - Well, it depends on what the copied page is used for. |
| 13:07.37 | Legorol | Shirik: at least in the UK, there are laws? regulations? with regards to the exact amount you can legally copy out of a text in a library etc. |
| 13:08.03 | Matrix110 | In the end nobody cares if you do it for yourself |
| 13:08.05 | Legorol | No more than 10% of the whole work, and no more than one whole chapter. |
| 13:08.26 | Ycarene | Legorol - I think with books, theres a substantial investment required to copy a book in ink, paper and time that makes the process too tedious to do so. |
| 13:08.41 | foxlit | "A is illegal. Yet nobody cares. Therefore, A is legal" |
| 13:08.46 | nevcairiel | We have a law that allows us to make copys of music CDs for friends and family, rulings attached a number of 10 copys to that, not sure about books |
| 13:08.47 | foxlit | logic++ |
| 13:09.19 | Matrix110 | foxlit it still stays illegal but you will never have any problemy with it :P |
| 13:09.20 | WhiteWolf | there's a problem with premise two.... someone cared to make it illegal |
| 13:09.56 | Matrix110 | WhiteWolf normally its affected by something else and then you realize wait copying a page in the libary is affected by it aswell |
| 13:10.08 | Matrix110 | in this case copyright |
| 13:10.37 | nevcairiel | (Are there eBook libraries yet? :) |
| 13:10.44 | Matrix110 | yes |
| 13:11.09 | Matrix110 | or well |
| 13:11.13 | Matrix110 | define ebook libary |
| 13:11.21 | nevcairiel | Like a library, just for ebooks |
| 13:11.40 | Matrix110 | There are normal libaries that carry ebooks of old books in their PCs atleast |
| 13:11.53 | Matrix110 | (normally those that dont have any copyright anymore) |
| 13:12.58 | cbreak | maybe that's specific to switzerland |
| 13:13.10 | cbreak | but here we pay special "taxes" on empty mediums |
| 13:13.22 | cbreak | like CD-Rs, hard disks, mp3 players, tapes and so on |
| 13:13.31 | Matrix110 | Same in germany |
| 13:13.32 | cbreak | those taxes cover private copying |
| 13:13.35 | nevcairiel | yeah we do too |
| 13:13.48 | Matrix110 | Buying a copying machine -> 100something because you might copy a book with it :P |
| 13:13.50 | nevcairiel | media and recording devices |
| 13:13.52 | cbreak | so copying music and books, and so on, is legal in a private environment |
| 13:14.00 | ZorbaTHut | funny thing is, so does Canada, and the CRIA still wants to sue Canadians for copying music |
| 13:14.18 | cbreak | CRIA... soundds like RIAA |
| 13:14.23 | cbreak | -> evil |
| 13:14.26 | ZorbaTHut | yes, it's the Canadian RIAA equivalent |
| 13:14.33 | ZorbaTHut | Canadian Recording Industry Association |
| 13:14.38 | nevcairiel | The law that allows the private copy states that you may not circumvent a copy protection while doing so, though |
| 13:14.58 | Matrix110 | circumvent a effective copy protection |
| 13:15.00 | cbreak | books and CDs have no such thing |
| 13:15.11 | nevcairiel | CDs can |
| 13:15.11 | cbreak | and DVDs have no effective copy protection |
| 13:15.13 | Matrix110 | DVDs AACS was ruled ineffective :D |
| 13:15.23 | cbreak | AACS is not dvd |
| 13:15.26 | cbreak | dvds have CSS |
| 13:15.28 | nevcairiel | well depends on the definition of effective |
| 13:15.33 | cbreak | AACS is on HD-DVDs or BluRays |
| 13:15.33 | Matrix110 | oh |
| 13:15.34 | Matrix110 | CSS then |
| 13:15.35 | Matrix110 | :D |
| 13:15.35 | nevcairiel | but yes CSS was ruled ineffective |
| 13:15.36 | Matrix110 | ops |
| 13:15.50 | cbreak | BluRays also have BD+ |
| 13:16.08 | cbreak | AACS is not yet cracked, but there are means to crack disks individually |
| 13:16.15 | nevcairiel | As long as i just start one tiny programm that removes the copy protection .. its ineffective =P |
| 13:16.26 | nevcairiel | (like CSS) |
| 13:16.26 | Matrix110 | nevcairiel thats not what judges think so :-( |
| 13:16.49 | ZorbaTHut | nev, I seem to recall that "effective" is a legal term that means something along the lines of "meant to be used for" |
| 13:16.51 | nevcairiel | Doesn't Linux *have to* crack CSS to be able to play dvds at all? |
| 13:16.54 | nevcairiel | or was that fixed? |
| 13:16.56 | Legorol | nevcairiel: i didn't think that CSS is a copy protection mechanism, my understanding was that it controls access to content |
| 13:16.57 | Matrix110 | A copy protection is ineffective if I can circumvent it atleast thats my opinion :D |
| 13:17.06 | Legorol | I can still copy a CSS scrambled DVD just fine, no? |
| 13:17.20 | nevcairiel | Legorol: not that i know of |
| 13:17.20 | ZorbaTHut | nev, it's still true, and may be illegal in many countries. |
| 13:17.49 | Legorol | nevcairiel: the way I understood it, CSS is basically a way of encrypting the files, the files themselves are just as easily copyable |
| 13:17.49 | Ycarene | nevcairiel - I have to include a css library in order to play dvds in a media player, the file for it is hosted outside of the US because it's not legal to host here. |
| 13:18.19 | nevcairiel | I never really understood why linux can't do what windows does there |
| 13:18.24 | Ycarene | CSS was less about preventing copying and more about restricting distribution regionally. |
| 13:18.29 | cbreak | Legorol: DVDs have special areas that can not be written |
| 13:18.39 | cbreak | (because DVD-Rs have it pre written) |
| 13:18.40 | ZorbaTHut | nev, pay a fee to the DVD companies for every copy distributed? |
| 13:18.43 | cbreak | and can not be normally read |
| 13:18.46 | ZorbaTHut | because that's what windows does :) |
| 13:18.47 | cbreak | those areas contain the CSS key |
| 13:18.55 | cbreak | so you can not copy DVDs completely |
| 13:19.00 | nevcairiel | anyway, cake time! |
| 13:19.04 | cbreak | however, the keys can be cracked within seconds |
| 13:19.45 | Matrix110 | Legorol in theory you could copy it but every part of Hardware that is allowed to read/write DVDs will not copy a CSS "protected" disc normally |
| 13:20.00 | cbreak | you can't make open source dvd players that are properly licensed |
| 13:20.06 | Ycarene | I remember the old hardware dvd decoder cards and dvd drives, they allows you to change the region code up to 7 times, then it would cease to function and you'd have to buy a new drive and card to change it again. |
| 13:20.08 | cbreak | because you can't hide a player key in an open source app |
| 13:20.17 | cbreak | and you won't get a license if you don't hide the key |
| 13:22.05 | Etanol | Which editor are YOU using to write wow addons? (yes, YOU) |
| 13:22.17 | cbreak | TextWrangler |
| 13:22.31 | cbreak | and vim when I am in the mood... (rarely...) |
| 13:22.53 | ZorbaTHut | a piece of magnetite, a magnifying glass, a cleanroom, and an open hard drive |
| 13:22.56 | *** join/#wowuidev Anaralx2 (n=Anaral@WoWUIDev/Norganna/QA-Manager/Anaral) |
| 13:23.50 | Pneumatus | butterflies |
| 13:24.34 | ZorbaTHut | although when I'm feeling lazy, I just meditate in my Chamber of Knowledge, and let the bits assemble themselves |
| 13:25.08 | mikma | http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=409917 |
| 13:25.19 | Legorol | Etanol: Scite (original) and Scite-WoWI, depending on which machine i'm on |
| 13:27.00 | Etanol | im using luaedit atm, and I don't really like the feeling |
| 13:27.21 | mikma | Notepad++ is good |
| 13:27.52 | Pneumatus | would be even better if someone finished writing a code completion file for wow's api :> |
| 13:29.16 | Etanol | does notepad++ have lua color coding? |
| 13:29.33 | Pneumatus | yup |
| 13:29.47 | Etanol | might go for that one |
| 13:30.09 | Pneumatus | i used to use TextPad and switched to NP++ about a year or so ago and never looked back |
| 13:30.17 | foxlit | (I used notepad. |
| 13:30.20 | foxlit | Hurray, notepad!) |
| 13:30.28 | Adys | http://pastebin.com/d3a8459b why wouldnt this work? and is there a simpler way to do that? |
| 13:30.30 | Pneumatus | although that was because TextPad's UTF-8 handling was shocking at the time |
| 13:31.06 | foxlit | Adys: that is madness. And yes. |
| 13:31.13 | Pneumatus | Adys: why not return k |
| 13:32.15 | Adys | because the table isnt linear |
| 13:32.15 | Pneumatus | for k, v in pairs(t) if val == v then return k end -- assuming you want to return the table key of 't' where the value equals 'val' |
| 13:32.30 | Adys | or however its called in english |
| 13:32.51 | Pneumatus | your 'i' wont return the key if the table is either a hash, or not numbered i = 1..x |
| 13:32.55 | foxlit | more fundamentally, of course, it *works*. |
| 13:33.09 | Adys | ok gonna be more accurate |
| 13:33.12 | foxlit | Apparently, it just doesn't do what you want it to do, which is a failure to express that exactly :) |
| 13:33.38 | foxlit | So the question becomes: what did you want it to do? |
| 13:33.40 | Adys | I got a table like items = { [12345] ="foo", [45678] = "bar" } |
| 13:33.53 | Adys | I dont actually |
| 13:34.05 | Adys | I got a table like items = { 12345, 45678 }, sorry |
| 13:34.35 | Pneumatus | the best way is actually probably to index the table with what you want to look up, rather than searching values |
| 13:34.39 | Adys | I have the id 12345, I want to find the next id in the table (in this case 45678) |
| 13:34.46 | cbreak | ipairs is for non-sparse non-mapped array like tables |
| 13:35.13 | Pneumatus | items = { [12345] = true, [23456] = true }; items[val]; |
| 13:35.24 | cbreak | Pneumatus: non-ordered |
| 13:35.33 | Adys | yeah I need it ordered |
| 13:35.39 | Pneumatus | ah |
| 13:35.48 | foxlit | So what you want is tableindex({12345, 45678}, 12345) == 2? |
| 13:35.52 | cbreak | ipairs is good if you can be sure there will be never an empty space |
| 13:35.57 | cbreak | and only numeric indexes |
| 13:35.58 | cbreak | starting with 1 |
| 13:36.25 | Adys | starting with 1? |
| 13:36.45 | cbreak | index of the first entry is 1 |
| 13:36.54 | cbreak | as opposed to C like 0 based indexing |
| 13:37.17 | Adys | first entry is 12345 here |
| 13:37.22 | Adys | FoxFurry: yes |
| 13:37.26 | cbreak | I doubt that. |
| 13:37.28 | nevcairiel | I should write a language that starts numeric indexing at 42 |
| 13:37.29 | Adys | foxlit: |
| 13:37.38 | Adys | cbreak: nm, misunderstood |
| 13:38.08 | foxlit | for k,v in pairs(t) do if v == val then return next(t, k); end end |
| 13:38.21 | cbreak | lua> t = {[0] = "abc"; "efg"; "hij"} for k, v in ipairs(t) print(k.." = "..v); end |
| 13:38.21 | lua_bot | cbreak: luabot:1: 'do' expected near 'print' |
| 13:38.24 | Etanol | hoy |
| 13:38.30 | cbreak | lua> t = {[0] = "abc"; "efg"; "hij"} for k, v in ipairs(t) do print(k.." = "..v); end |
| 13:38.30 | lua_bot | cbreak: 1 = efg, 2 = hij |
| 13:38.34 | cbreak | so :) |
| 13:38.49 | foxlit | (of course, that might as well not work -- pairs iteration order is undefined, but seems to be in-order for the array portion) |
| 13:39.08 | cbreak | I'd use ipairs in this scenario |
| 13:39.58 | *** join/#wowuidev Kalroth (n=kalroth@2506ds1-hj.0.fullrate.dk) |
| 13:40.04 | Pneumatus | lua> t = { 12345, 67890 }; val = 67890; for k, v in pairs(t) if val == v then print(k) end; |
| 13:40.05 | lua_bot | Pneumatus: luabot:1: 'do' expected near 'if' |
| 13:40.08 | foxlit | If you're using an array, you probably have the previous index to begin with, so it's just nextIndex = index+1; |
| 13:40.14 | Pneumatus | lua> t = { 12345, 67890 }; val = 67890; for k, v in pairs(t) do if val == v then print(k) end; |
| 13:40.14 | lua_bot | Pneumatus: luabot:1: 'end' expected near '<eof>' |
| 13:40.30 | Pneumatus | zzz |
| 13:40.54 | Pneumatus | lua> t = { 12345, 67890, 25457 }; val = 67890; for k, v in pairs(t) do if val == v then print(k) end; end; |
| 13:40.54 | lua_bot | Pneumatus: 2 |
| 13:44.06 | *** join/#wowuidev Doow (n=Miranda@unaffiliated/doow) |
| 13:45.33 | Etanol | why does my addon name have a ugly color in aceconsole printing? |
| 13:45.46 | Etanol | I never even set the color |
| 13:46.16 | *** join/#wowuidev p3lim (n=p3lim@ti500710a080-5815.bb.online.no) |
| 13:46.28 | Etanol | I should probably abandon the ace printing |
| 13:50.23 | *** join/#wowuidev ZorbaTHut (i=tocohl@maximilian.pavlovian.net) |
| 13:50.58 | Adys | I keep getting "invalid key to next" |
| 13:51.14 | Etanol | show code |
| 13:51.26 | Adys | sec |
| 13:53.49 | Etanol | how do I change my aceconsole printing color? |
| 13:54.20 | Arrowmaster | you dont |
| 13:55.07 | Arrowmaster | cog|away: whoops i seem to have forgotten i was running a trade script, i just used 25k turns |
| 13:55.46 | Etanol | arowmaster: what? |
| 13:55.57 | Etanol | Arrowmaster* , sorry ;P |
| 13:56.05 | Arrowmaster | i said you dont |
| 13:56.10 | Adys | you cant |
| 13:56.40 | Etanol | hum? |
| 13:56.48 | Etanol | and how did I get the color in the first place? |
| 13:57.08 | Arrowmaster | it does that |
| 13:57.40 | Etanol | -_- |
| 13:58.24 | Etanol | I guess i'll have to make my own printing func to have nice colors :) |
| 13:59.24 | cbreak | rainbowize(string) ftw! |
| 13:59.32 | nevcairiel | the print function isnt exactly rocket science |
| 13:59.45 | *** join/#wowuidev Funkeh` (n=funk@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/Ace3/BigWigs/funkeh) |
| 14:00.16 | Arrowmaster | print is only for debug though |
| 14:00.51 | Etanol | no, but ace's printing func is child art |
| 14:04.06 | Etanol | print is only for debug? |
| 14:04.43 | Etanol | OR: if you can't be arsed writing 500 lines of code for a gui |
| 14:07.53 | cbreak | DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(text) |
| 14:11.36 | cbreak | Conficker.C seems to be an interesting piece of work |
| 14:24.07 | *** join/#wowuidev Lopeppeppy (n=Lopeppep@cpe-69-204-134-64.nycap.res.rr.com) |
| 14:24.07 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+v Lopeppeppy] by ChanServ |
| 14:24.10 | Etanol | hm |
| 14:24.18 | Etanol | i found an interesting api function |
| 14:24.23 | Etanol | DownloadSettings() |
| 14:24.30 | Etanol | anybody have any idea what it does? |
| 14:24.47 | Lopeppeppy | Where did you find it, and have you checked WoWwiki yet? |
| 14:24.50 | Arrowmaster | it loads the config settings stored on blizz servers |
| 14:26.26 | Legorol | it's for macro/keybinding management |
| 14:27.36 | *** join/#wowuidev kd3|hate`net (n=kd3@wikia/kaydeethree) |
| 14:30.16 | Lopeppeppy | Internets giving you crap again, kd3? |
| 14:32.14 | *** join/#wowuidev Wimpsy` (n=Wimp_@78-70-121-17-no170.tbcn.telia.com) |
| 14:32.26 | *** join/#wowuidev ilovemrdoe (n=chatzill@88-104-81-173.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) |
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| 14:51.20 | Etanol | o hai |
| 14:51.29 | Lopeppeppy | Morning, Jelly-dear |
| 14:51.50 | |Jelly| | Morning! Anything new in the wonderful world of addons? |
| 14:52.32 | Etanol | yes |
| 14:52.35 | *** join/#wowuidev Dark_Elf (n=Dark_Elf@ip155.net253.mw.net) |
| 14:52.37 | cbreak | addons are doomed! |
| 14:52.39 | *** join/#wowuidev Aelobin (n=Aelobin@212-139-68-187.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) |
| 14:52.40 | cbreak | blizzard is after us! |
| 14:52.58 | Aelobin | =o |
| 14:53.19 | *** part/#wowuidev Etanol (n=gamle-go@hus134a.bobbnet.com) |
| 14:53.24 | |Jelly| | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqcn_TPu4qQ& |
| 14:53.29 | *** join/#wowuidev Etanol (n=gamle-go@hus134a.bobbnet.com) |
| 14:53.33 | Lopeppeppy | Sky is falling, yawnies. |
| 14:53.35 | *** join/#wowuidev keias (n=bleh@pool-72-86-106-233.aubnin.fios.verizon.net) |
| 15:10.56 | *** join/#wowuidev Tifi (n=Tifi@dslb-088-073-065-134.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
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| 15:12.33 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+v MentalPower] by ChanServ |
| 15:16.50 | Lopeppeppy | OMG I hate Dalaran. I see so many ! and I can't get to any of them. |
| 15:17.12 | cbreak | cause? |
| 15:17.48 | Lopeppeppy | I just can't figure out what building/walkway they're in/under. Map is for fail in this case, it's very frustrating. |
| 15:18.02 | cbreak | probably in the sewers |
| 15:18.04 | Fisker- | http://www.more-thing.com/3-d-series.html?gclid=CPjg3J3qtpkCFRC7ZwodTEQN7Q <-very important for that you can see the apple logo |
| 15:18.11 | ZorbaTHut | lope, mouseover the !, find the name of the character, go on wowhead, figure out where they are ;) |
| 15:18.53 | cbreak | I read the logo is worth 500$ |
| 15:19.33 | Lopeppeppy | I've done a bit of that, Zorba, but the frustration of city-exploring knows no bounds for me. |
| 15:23.01 | Industrial | Fisker-: I hate it when people are like that :( |
| 15:23.55 | *** join/#wowuidev Shirik (n=Shirik@conspiracy/developer/Shirik) |
| 15:23.55 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o Shirik] by ChanServ |
| 15:28.08 | Lopeppeppy | Morning, tired Shirik. |
| 15:29.51 | *** join/#wowuidev foxlit (n=foxlit@0x573e6bae.alb2nxx18.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk) |
| 15:32.41 | *** join/#wowuidev Kowski (n=ykow@pv130242.reshsg.uci.edu) |
| 15:33.59 | |Jelly| | Well you better wake up soonish because you're going to have to defend yourself against the Tickle-Dino that is PEPPY! |
| 15:34.41 | Shirik | eh |
| 15:34.43 | Shirik | I'm going to sleep really |
| 15:36.34 | *** join/#wowuidev Jamash (n=Jamash@75-25-130-215.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 15:39.55 | *** join/#wowuidev Aznamir (n=aznamir@ool-43544a0d.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 15:41.22 | Lopeppeppy | *hugs* Get some rest. |
| 15:43.04 | *** join/#wowuidev Repo (n=supybot@hg.wowace.com) |
| 15:45.43 | Tifi | ptr toc version is 30100? |
| 15:47.38 | *** join/#wowuidev Spellshaper (n=Spellsha@HSI-KBW-085-216-104-053.hsi.kabelbw.de) |
| 15:47.49 | sacarasc | If I had a macro with multiple /casts, would the latter ones get executed if the previous ones were on cool down? |
| 15:48.10 | foxlit | no, they'd all fail. Or so the story goes |
| 15:48.12 | Legorol | nope, sacarasc |
| 15:48.25 | Industrial | http://imgur.com/WIPK.jpg |
| 15:48.27 | sacarasc | Damn, can't go back to button mashing. |
| 15:48.29 | Industrial | lol@this I love the fury :D |
| 15:48.37 | Legorol | sacarasc: that's the whole idea |
| 15:51.01 | *** join/#wowuidev Repo (n=supybot@git.curseforge.net) |
| 15:52.11 | sacarasc | Bastards! |
| 15:53.48 | Industrial | http://becauseitisawesome.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/stupid_emo_on_myspace1.jpg |
| 15:53.52 | Industrial | hahahaha |
| 15:57.14 | *** join/#wowuidev Repo (n=supybot@git.wowace.com) |
| 15:59.50 | *** join/#wowuidev Repo (n=supybot@hg.wowace.com) |
| 16:01.21 | *** join/#wowuidev Repo (n=supybot@git.wowace.com) |
| 16:08.09 | *** join/#wowuidev Anaralx2 (n=Anaral@WoWUIDev/Norganna/QA-Manager/Anaral) |
| 16:09.31 | Etanol | Poll: What kind of music do you listen to while programming? |
| 16:10.26 | Industrial | anime/jpop music |
| 16:10.33 | Industrial | but I always listen to that.. |
| 16:11.18 | Etanol | You never try somehting different? :P |
| 16:11.24 | Etanol | something* |
| 16:12.14 | cbreak | various. |
| 16:12.45 | Lopeppeppy | Whatever comes up on my eba playlist |
| 16:24.33 | Fisker- | an error occurred |
| 16:26.56 | *** join/#wowuidev Tewan (n=quassel@adsl-75-60-183-139.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net) |
| 16:29.23 | *** join/#wowuidev Anaral_Eliza (n=Anaral@WoWUIDev/Norganna/QA-Manager/Anaral) |
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| 16:37.41 | |Jelly| | "Can ZG be soloed by two people?" /boggle |
| 16:37.41 | *** join/#wowuidev Drayk_ (n=quassel@adsl-75-50-56-26.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net) |
| 16:37.41 | Lopeppeppy | ... sure it can. |
| 16:37.41 | Lopeppeppy | Right. |
| 16:37.41 | Lopeppeppy | Well, not the bosses, but some of the trash for sure. |
| 16:37.41 | |Jelly| | I was more or less talking about the "soloed by two people" part. :P |
| 16:37.42 | malikeye | anybody know of an addon that recently started adding semi-transparent bars to the left and right side of the screen? the show up after an attack lands... |
| 16:37.42 | malikeye | the bars are the size of say fubar |
| 16:37.42 | malikeye | I thought it might be omen, but it doesnt' look like it |
| 16:37.42 | Fisker- | didn't know the european comission played wow |Jelly| |
| 16:37.50 | |Jelly| | Do you have WIM, Malikeye? |
| 16:37.56 | malikeye | yeah |
| 16:38.31 | malikeye | looks like that might be it |
| 16:38.35 | malikeye | "expose feature" |
| 16:38.41 | |Jelly| | Try disabling that. Apparently they added that "feature" |
| 16:38.42 | malikeye | wouldn't have thought of that |
| 16:39.04 | malikeye | what a weird addition |
| 16:40.10 | *** join/#wowuidev p3lim (n=p3lim@ti500710a080-5815.bb.online.no) |
| 16:41.15 | malikeye | that was it, thanks |Jelly| |
| 16:41.20 | |Jelly| | :) |
| 16:41.22 | malikeye | guess I'll need to read my changelogs better |
| 16:42.57 | nevcairiel | I've seen that before, i think someone linked it here |
| 16:44.29 | ScytheBlade1 | .......... |
| 16:44.40 | ScytheBlade1 | I have to wonder just how bored you have to be to do that |
| 16:44.54 | nevcairiel | they are sheep herders |
| 16:45.27 | ScytheBlade1 | Yeah, I... noticed |
| 16:45.50 | Fisker- | no! |
| 16:45.58 | Fisker- | the sheep commercial is even worse than the SSD one |
| 16:46.09 | ScytheBlade1 | Yeah, teh SSD one is at least entertaining |
| 16:46.21 | *** join/#wowuidev chris_s (n=chris@c-69-142-35-23.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) |
| 16:48.31 | *** join/#wowuidev Seerah (n=Ryan_L@adsl-66-24-190.mem.bellsouth.net) |
| 16:48.31 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o Seerah] by ChanServ |
| 17:01.31 | Lopeppeppy | Morning, Seerah. |
| 17:08.31 | ScytheBlade1 | 37 space mine(s) detonate near you! |
| 17:08.47 | ScytheBlade1 | You will have to start over from scratch! |
| 17:08.50 | ScytheBlade1 | =[ |
| 17:09.27 | Lopeppeppy | Oh, crap! |
| 17:13.51 | Industrial | cant log into my realm (Vashj eu) :< |
| 17:14.43 | *** join/#wowuidev Matrix110| (i=Matrix11@pD957DCDB.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 17:18.12 | kmcguire | Scythe, lol. |
| 17:18.18 | kmcguire | Did it lock you out for a day? |
| 17:18.21 | ScytheBlade1 | yup |
| 17:18.28 | kmcguire | I had me locked out yesterday. |
| 17:18.32 | ScytheBlade1 | I'll have something like 20k turns when I get back :P |
| 17:18.38 | kmcguire | haha |
| 17:18.53 | kmcguire | You want to join my corporation? We could help each other out. |
| 17:19.06 | ScytheBlade1 | Already in one |
| 17:19.19 | kmcguire | Oh, which one? Yar or Cogs? |
| 17:19.23 | ScytheBlade1 | Cogs |
| 17:19.47 | kmcguire | Good, he needed someone else in his. haha. |
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| 17:39.51 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o Iriel] by ChanServ |
| 17:56.00 | mikma | http://kuvaton.com/bshit/lol,_pepsi.jpg |
| 17:56.07 | mikma | that picture is so damn true |
| 17:56.25 | mikma | i hate the new bottles we have, the think in the picture always happens when you open the bottle |
| 17:57.44 | Dagmar | They're soft, squishy bottles? |
| 17:58.21 | mikma | yeah, quite horrible ones. the older bottles were harder plastic and they didn't do that |
| 17:59.16 | Dagmar | Hmm... I'll have to make a decision based on whether or not it helps me quickly empty a 2-liter |
| 17:59.24 | Dagmar | If those are 1-liters, it would be win |
| 18:07.43 | *** join/#wowuidev Hjalte (n=chatzill@cpe.ge-0-2-0-835.arcnqu2.customer.tele.dk) |
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| 18:08.08 | AbsolutRayne | Afternoon |
| 18:09.48 | *** join/#wowuidev Dewin (n=Daniel@c-71-59-222-35.hsd1.or.comcast.net) |
| 18:10.25 | Lopeppeppy | Morning. |
| 18:10.25 | Dewin | Morning. |
| 18:10.39 | Jamash | Eclipse. |
| 18:10.42 | Thunder_Child | Mourning |
| 18:10.52 | Dewin | Frostmourning? |
| 18:11.59 | Dewin | I'm not used to hearing "morning" the moment I log in to the channel, I mean, I'm that kid in the back of the classroom that nobody talks to, not the popular people who are channel regulars. :-p |
| 18:12.08 | Dewin | of course, it probably wasn't directed at me. |
| 18:13.13 | Dagmar | Universal Greeting Time |
| 18:14.38 | Dewin | wtb way to be able to alt-tab out of WoW during loading screens without running in windowed mode |
| 18:14.45 | Jamash | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:15.28 | Dewin | I can do it sometimes on login if I alt-tab immediately |
| 18:15.34 | Dewin | but then I end up having some UI art not load properly |
| 18:15.35 | Jamash | I get significantly better FPS in fullscreen but I run in windowed because it's such a pain to not be able to tab out when I want to |
| 18:15.50 | Dewin | well, it takes me like 2 minutes to log in |
| 18:16.02 | *** join/#wowuidev X3 (n=rmoore08@208.98.166.74) |
| 18:16.03 | Dewin | too many^W^Wjust the right amount of addons. |
| 18:16.56 | Dewin | I've actually thought about writing something that would take an addons folder and reduce it to the bare minimum possible (i.e. via LuaSrcDiet and merging files together) to see if it'd have a notable impact on loading time |
| 18:17.19 | Jamash | that would be interesting |
| 18:18.20 | *** join/#wowuidev Doow (n=Miranda@unaffiliated/doow) |
| 18:18.39 | Dewin | the biggest benefit would be in eliminating duplicate copies of embedded libs if the files are the same |
| 18:19.23 | Jamash | it depends on where the true time cost is in loading addons |
| 18:19.31 | Jamash | is it file i/o, compilation time, etc |
| 18:21.16 | Dagmar | How long it takes the addons to mail your gold to someone else |
| 18:21.22 | Jamash | lulz |
| 18:21.39 | Dagmar | I'm so going to catch hell for what I'm working on here. |
| 18:22.10 | Dagmar | Cooking up fake logos for phony power-leveling and gold seller companies to put into a mock screenshot |
| 18:22.34 | Jamash | :-O |
| 18:22.59 | *** join/#wowuidev Riffage- (n=nnscript@78.86.205.138) |
| 18:23.08 | Jamash | you should just put pepsi and coke logos in everything |
| 18:23.13 | Jamash | or maybe nvidia and ati |
| 18:23.14 | Dagmar | It's _exactly_ where it'll go if Blizzard were to allow ads in-game |
| 18:24.00 | Jamash | not really |
| 18:24.06 | Dagmar | I might throw in an ad for one of the phony products in GTA4 |
| 18:24.16 | ZorbaTHut | they could pretty easily ban any UI mod that allowed ads for things that break the EULA/TOS |
| 18:24.47 | Dagmar | Yeah, but the charge of uneven enforcement would result in a lawsuit |
| 18:24.47 | Lopeppeppy | Ads **themselves** break the ToS/EULA. |
| 18:25.10 | Jamash | cite? |
| 18:27.38 | Lopeppeppy | Go read? |
| 18:27.54 | Lopeppeppy | Hello, I don't spoon feed anyone, you have access to the ToS/EULA along with everyone else. |
| 18:28.13 | Jamash | I have already read it, and do not see anything regarding advertising in addons. |
| 18:28.48 | ZorbaTHut | yeah, I've looked for that also and never found it |
| 18:29.05 | Lopeppeppy | You're being too narrow. Look for advertising in general. |
| 18:29.12 | Jamash | the only thing the TOS mentions is advertising *in chat* |
| 18:29.13 | ZorbaTHut | people occasionally cite the segment under "Chat", but that pretty explicitly talks about interactions with other users, and doesn't mention addons at all |
| 18:29.21 | Jamash | has nothing to do with addons |
| 18:29.39 | kmcguire | Why would they not want advertising in chat? |
| 18:29.40 | Lopeppeppy | Rules lawyer as you choose. |
| 18:30.00 | Jamash | I'm not rules lawyering, I'm interpreting the words exactly as written, in context. |
| 18:30.03 | kmcguire | Like, do they mean spam advertising or advertising in general.. Let me go look. |
| 18:30.03 | ZorbaTHut | I dunno, when someone says "it isn't allowed to do X when you're doing Y", that doesn't imply anything about doing X when you're doing Z :P |
| 18:30.16 | Jamash | B. Rules Related to "Chat" and Interaction With Other Users. Communicating in-game with other Users and Blizzard representatives, whether by text, voice or any other method, is an integral part of the Game and the Service and is referred to here as "Chat." When engaging in Chat, you may not: |
| 18:30.16 | ZorbaTHut | kmc, "Rules Related to "Chat" and Interaction With Other Users" |
| 18:30.31 | ZorbaTHut | B.iii and B.iv specifically |
| 18:30.34 | Jamash | (iii) Disrupt the normal flow of dialogue in Chat or otherwise act in a manner that negatively affects other users including without limitation posting commercial solicitations and/or advertisements for goods and services available outside of the World of Warcraft universe; |
| 18:30.34 | Jamash | (iii) Disrupt the normal flow of dialogue in Chat or otherwise act in a manner that negatively affects other users including without limitation posting commercial solicitations and/or advertisements for goods and services available outside of the World of Warcraft universe; |
| 18:30.37 | Jamash | ack |
| 18:30.38 | Jamash | sorry |
| 18:31.04 | Codayus | How ironic. |
| 18:31.14 | Codayus | You're disrupting the normal flow of dialogue in Chat here. :-( |
| 18:31.18 | Jamash | Codayus: Indeed. |
| 18:31.18 | Dagmar | Yeah that's for chat, but there's that loophole at the moment that would allow an addon to put banner ads on the screen |
| 18:31.25 | Dagmar | Hence the new policy |
| 18:31.29 | Jamash | Dagmar: So what if it does? |
| 18:31.37 | Jamash | It doesn't affect other users. |
| 18:32.00 | Dagmar | *before* someone can try to convince a judge that the "ew policy" is discriminatory and requires a judge to look into whether or not this cost said company undue monies |
| 18:32.38 | Dagmar | s/"ew/"new/; |
| 18:32.54 | *** join/#wowuidev Tekkub (n=tekkub@WoWUIDev/WoWI/Featured/Dongle/GitHub/Tekkub) |
| 18:32.54 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+v Tekkub] by ChanServ |
| 18:35.26 | kmcguire | You guys are going to push it right into the ground, and the real losers will be everyone. |
| 18:35.46 | Jamash | who's "you guys"? |
| 18:35.52 | kmcguire | In reply to, not in the EULA or TOS. |
| 18:36.00 | kmcguire | Loophole, ect, ect. |
| 18:36.30 | Lopeppeppy | Rules lawyering = nobody wins. |
| 18:37.40 | Dagmar | Paople are acting like it was completely over-the-top for Blizzard to explicitly ban ads |
| 18:37.44 | Adys | http://garfieldlostintranslation.blogspot.com/ |
| 18:37.48 | Jamash | From a developer's standpoing the choices are to let Blizzard get away with whatever they feel like and definitely lose or fight and maybe lose |
| 18:38.11 | Dagmar | Jamash: From someone who isn't trying to see the whole picture maybe |
| 18:38.13 | Jamash | s/standpoing/standpoint/ |
| 18:38.52 | Jamash | Dagmar: What's the whole picture? |
| 18:39.35 | Dagmar | The "whole" picture is that there has to be some restrictions on ads in-game or there will be goldfarming and power-leveling ads |
| 18:40.08 | Jamash | So? |
| 18:40.15 | Dagmar | ...and you can say "Well, people won't load those addons" but that argument is about as sound as "Well, people won't buy gold or powerleveling services" |
| 18:40.17 | ZorbaTHut | there's already been some of those on popular WoW websites, and surprisingly, the planet still exists |
| 18:40.35 | Jamash | You'd have to be pretty stupid to download an addon with gold ads in it. |
| 18:40.41 | Dagmar | ...when it's pretty damn obvious that regardless of the consequences, idjits *do* buy powerleveing services, arena ratings, and gold all the time |
| 18:41.20 | Dagmar | ZorbaTHut: So you're in favor of RMT then? |
| 18:41.27 | Jamash | Is it more important to stop stupid people from downloading bad addons, or to preserve the right of developers to control their own copyrighted works? |
| 18:41.41 | Jamash | Damgar: Have you stopped beating your wife? |
| 18:41.54 | ZorbaTHut | dagmar, no, I'm not. I am in favor of people being allowed to do whatever they like on their own computer, however. |
| 18:41.55 | Dagmar | Jamash: When do you plan to stop selling gold? |
| 18:42.05 | ZorbaTHut | And if that means they want to look at RMT ads, then I'm in favor of them being allowed to. |
| 18:42.15 | Dagmar | ZorbaTHut: So you support people's right to use Glider to farm up materials as much as they like then |
| 18:42.43 | ZorbaTHut | dagmar, no, because that starts influencing the Blizzard servers as well. Merely display an ad on the user's computer doesn't do anything to the Blizzard servers. |
| 18:43.01 | Jamash | ZorbaTHut: right on |
| 18:43.33 | kmcguire | ZorbaTHut: But, you specificaly stated that you are in favor of people being allowed to do whatever they like on their own computer. |
| 18:43.45 | Dagmar | ZorbaTHut: There's the problem. You want to say "just displaying an ad" when the reality of it is that there's plenty of ads that could be displayed for things which violate the EULA/ToS and destroy economies and a sense of fair play |
| 18:43.52 | Jamash | WoW has two components, a client and a service. |
| 18:44.11 | Jamash | Glider interferes with the service, and as such Blizzard can do something about it. |
| 18:44.17 | ZorbaTHut | kmc, yes. And I do. I don't support people's right to do whatever they like on other people's computers. When they start using the Blizzard servers in ways that Blizzard doesn't approve of, even remotely, using automated tools, that crosses the line for me. |
| 18:44.24 | Dagmar | I'm saying the verbiage for that no solicitations bit needs to be clarified, but all these people are being thick and just screaming "NO IT HAS TO GO!" |
| 18:44.28 | ZorbaTHut | However, displaying ads on the user's computer does not touch the Blizzard servers in any manner whatsoever. |
| 18:44.40 | kmcguire | Zorbat: My point is you are so mad over their release of these ""guidelines"". |
| 18:44.44 | Dagmar | I can totally see how poping a line in the chat window to remind a user that there's a way to make donations would be fine |
| 18:44.53 | kmcguire | Zorbot: But, honestly. I imagine if they could make a exception for you they would. |
| 18:45.10 | kmcguire | Just like you went... 'uhoh I forgot about glider' and make an exception. |
| 18:45.12 | Dagmar | ...but it's a bitch to come up with verbiage that would allow that and not also allow goldfarmers to start looking for ways to get developers to take their work private |
| 18:45.16 | ZorbaTHut | If you wanted to be extremely strict and logical about it, I *do* believe people should be legally allowed to run Glider, and I believe Blizzard should be legally allowed to ban everyone who uses Glider. I think the Glider-is-now-illegal ruling was a bad one. |
| 18:45.53 | Jamash | Freedom is more important than computer games. |
| 18:46.18 | cbreak | there are only few things that are more important than freedom |
| 18:46.23 | Dagmar | Freedom being important doesn't mean making crack legal ("Freedom, man!") would be a good idea for society as a whole |
| 18:46.36 | ZorbaTHut | dagmar, actually, I disagree with you on that point :) |
| 18:46.52 | Dagmar | Not allowing behaviours that are inherently destructive to the venue has to take precedent |
| 18:46.56 | cbreak | but that has nothing to do with WoW |
| 18:46.57 | ZorbaTHut | (pretty thoroughly, in fact, not only do I think your logic is wrong, but I do think that crack should be legal) |
| 18:47.14 | kmcguire | Zorbal: Well, tell us why crack should be legal. |
| 18:47.16 | Jamash | Let's not get too sidetracked. |
| 18:47.17 | ZorbaTHut | the venue is owned by the venue owner. Blizzard's server is owned by Blizzard. My computer is owned by me. |
| 18:47.35 | cbreak | same reasons alcohol should be legal. and cigarettes. |
| 18:47.38 | Dagmar | Well then none of this should bother you |
| 18:47.39 | ZorbaTHut | kmc, my body is owned by me as well, and I don't think it's the government's business what I do to it. |
| 18:47.49 | Dagmar | You shouldn't have a problem with Blizzard's policy |
| 18:47.49 | Jamash | I should have the right to do whatever I like on my own computer *as long as* it doesn't affect Blizzard's service. |
| 18:48.00 | mikma | oh look, still whining |
| 18:48.21 | kmcguire | Zorba: That is a selfish way to think though. |
| 18:48.22 | ZorbaTHut | dagmar, I think it's *possibly* their right to make the choice. I think it's a very bad choice, and I think it's a mistake on their part. |
| 18:48.24 | Jamash | I shouldn't have a problem with Blizzard telling me what I can and can't do on my own computer? |
| 18:48.31 | Jamash | I don't think it's their right. |
| 18:48.45 | Dagmar | ZorbaTHut: I think it was hastily made verbiage, but I don't think they were wholly wrong in declaring what they did |
| 18:48.46 | Jamash | Google the Carterphone decision. |
| 18:48.47 | ZorbaTHut | dagmar, the part that I'm uncertain about is how much control I believe Blizzard *should* have over people connecting to their servers |
| 18:49.00 | ZorbaTHut | if Blizzard said "anyone connecting to our server must not have Age of Conan installed", would that be allowed? |
| 18:49.07 | ZorbaTHut | I don't think it should be. |
| 18:49.17 | Dagmar | It would be legally actionable for wholly different reasons |
| 18:49.23 | cbreak | they can say that |
| 18:49.25 | ZorbaTHut | Similarly, if Blizzard said "Anyone connecting to our server must not have a web browser with an RMT ad displayed", would that be allowed? |
| 18:49.30 | ZorbaTHut | Again, I don't think it should be. |
| 18:49.32 | Jamash | s/Carterphone/Carterfone/ |
| 18:49.35 | kmcguire | Zorbal: Yeah |
| 18:49.50 | cbreak | they can write all kinds of stupid things into their account eula |
| 18:50.06 | kmcguire | Zorbal: You just got done saying you think smoking crack should be legal since it's your own body. So blizzard should be able to do whatever it wants with it's own servers(body). |
| 18:50.15 | ZorbaTHut | I agree it crosses a boundary to have stuff displayed within their client, but I'm having a really hard time deciding whether that's a line that I believe should have legal standing. |
| 18:50.29 | ZorbaTHut | kmc, yes. and I believe, 100%, that anything which affects Blizzard's servers, they should be able to control. |
| 18:50.37 | ZorbaTHut | But having AoC installed on my computer doesn't affect Blizzard's servers. |
| 18:50.48 | kmcguire | But, it is their servers. |
| 18:50.48 | Dagmar | Ads for RMT would affect Blizzard's servers |
| 18:50.48 | ZorbaTHut | Having Firefox displaying RMT ads doesn't affect Blizzard's servers. |
| 18:50.59 | ZorbaTHut | And having ads ingame displaying RMT ads doesn't affect Blizzard's servers either. |
| 18:51.06 | Dagmar | Ads for RMT in-game would do even more |
| 18:51.22 | *** join/#wowuidev dustice (n=dustin@resnet-129-116-62-228.dorm.utexas.edu) |
| 18:51.23 | kmcguire | Zorba: You would have to essentially "tell a lie" to connect to their servers knowing you did not have AoC installed. |
| 18:51.25 | cbreak | a default chat frame add is not server interacting |
| 18:51.29 | ZorbaTHut | dagmar, no, people purchasing RMT would affect Blizzard's servers. People advertising RMT in /2 would affect Blizzard's servers. |
| 18:51.39 | ScytheBlade1 | wtf is RMT? |
| 18:51.45 | cbreak | Royal Mounty Trouppe |
| 18:51.49 | Dagmar | People who never see the ads don't exactly manage to buy RMT all that often |
| 18:51.58 | Jamash | real money transactions |
| 18:51.59 | Dagmar | ScytheBlade1: Real Money Transactions |
| 18:52.00 | ZorbaTHut | People distributing plugins that popped up a giant "punch the monkey" ad that displayed hardcore goat pornography while suggesting that you buy a lv80 character on a private server? Well, that doesn't actually touch the servers. |
| 18:52.11 | ScytheBlade1 | ah k |
| 18:52.25 | Dagmar | Private servers don't advertise that I've noticed |
| 18:52.30 | Dagmar | RMT goldfarmers do |
| 18:52.34 | Dagmar | They got the gold from somewhere |
| 18:52.47 | cbreak | bailout. |
| 18:52.50 | ZorbaTHut | I suspect that advertising private servers on WoW is kind of fruitless. |
| 18:52.50 | Dagmar | ...and I would LOVE it if Blizz would cough up some detail about where the money from stolen accounts is winding up |
| 18:53.01 | Dagmar | ...because I'm pretty sure the majority of it flows towards IGE |
| 18:53.20 | Jamash | I may dislike something but that doesn't mean I want it to be illegal |
| 18:53.28 | cbreak | what I would be more interested in is where all the money I spend on repairs ends up. |
| 18:53.33 | ScytheBlade1 | Dagmar: gold sellers. There is a minority group of individuals that scam people for entertainment, but the "organized" keylogging is almost certaintly gold sellers. |
| 18:53.45 | Dagmar | ScytheBlade1: I know |
| 18:54.15 | Dagmar | We've had a few guild members compromised in the last year, and some of them had their accounts so thoroughly sacked it was obvious someone was working from a todo list |
| 18:54.48 | Jamash | maybe blizzard did it to encourage you to buy an authenticator |
| 18:55.04 | Jamash | if we're going to engange in fruitless speculation |
| 18:55.08 | Dagmar | Doubtful, since it appears they're either selling those for no profit or partially subsidizing them |
| 18:55.18 | Anaral_Eliza | Jamash It worked. ;) |
| 18:55.38 | Dagmar | Jamash: Plus, I ain't no stranger to online crime |
| 18:55.55 | Adys | They know the rules and so do you |
| 18:56.00 | Cidan | Shirik: You here? |
| 18:56.08 | Shirik | I am |
| 18:56.12 | kmcguire | ZorbatHut: Well, maybe your right. Maybe they can not really do anything legally. But, I heard were they had some sort of file that could disable certain add-ons. I dont know if this is true. But, if it is it could give you a lot of problems if you want to go against them. |
| 18:56.15 | Dagmar | I don't engage in it or anything, but I keep an eye on a few mailing lists that track the corporate DDoS and malware people |
| 18:56.18 | Jamash | Adys: >_< |
| 18:56.33 | kmcguire | ZorbatHut: Therefore, I mean really. They can do something. |
| 18:56.41 | Cidan | Shirik: Do you know a quick way to pass a C/C++ struct to the Lua VM stack and get it in Lua as a table? |
| 18:56.53 | Shirik | LuaBind is the closest you can get |
| 18:56.59 | Cidan | fsck. |
| 18:57.00 | kmcguire | ZorbatHut: I like the donate buttons, but if they want to kill out add-ons that do advertisements then fine. I do not mind. |
| 18:57.01 | ZorbaTHut | kmc, oh, I'm not arguing that technically they're able to do it |
| 18:57.04 | Jamash | kmcguire: Nobody is arguing that blizzard can't take technical measures |
| 18:57.13 | Shirik | The real way to do it is make it a userdata with an __index entry |
| 18:57.15 | ZorbaTHut | and I also strongly suspect that legally they are also, at least unless someone goes toe-to-toe to them with lawyers. |
| 18:57.27 | kmcguire | Oh, my mistake. You guys are arguing if it is right or wrong for them to do it. |
| 18:57.43 | Cidan | Can I just pass the pointer to the object as lightuserdata? |
| 18:57.46 | Jamash | We're arguing whether they can take legal measures |
| 18:57.51 | ZorbaTHut | I'm arguing a few points - whether it's moral, and whether it *should* be legal. |
| 18:57.53 | Jamash | in addition to technical measures |
| 18:57.55 | Shirik | yes, but it won't be a table |
| 18:57.58 | kmcguire | Well, I want to know if it is right for my tax dollars to pay for people that could get a job and work. =p |
| 18:58.00 | ZorbaTHut | and then there's also the question of whether they can take legal measures, yes |
| 18:58.02 | Cidan | right, it'll be userdata |
| 18:58.10 | *** join/#wowuidev Ackis (n=asdf@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/ARL/Troll/Ackis) |
| 18:58.11 | Shirik | so without a __index entry in the metatable, it won't be very useful |
| 18:58.16 | Dagmar | I think they went a bit too heavy with their declaration of what's forbidden and need to lighten it, but there's people screaming all over the forums that they should have never banned anything at all |
| 18:58.23 | Jamash | They seem to be claiming greater rights than the law allows. |
| 18:58.28 | Dagmar | The latter viewpoint isn't likely to get much of anywhere |
| 18:58.30 | Shirik | unless you don't want them to touch it in Lua, then that's fine |
| 18:58.31 | Cidan | How do I go about doing that? *noob to Lua VM* |
| 18:58.34 | kmcguire | Dagmar: It was not forbidden. It was just a guideline. |
| 18:58.49 | Dagmar | kmcguire: Was not forbidden how? |
| 18:58.52 | Jamash | The word "guideline" is meaningless when accompanied with the threat of legal action |
| 18:58.56 | kmcguire | Dagmar: They just said here is some guidelines. If you go outside of these too far and we think it is a problem we will let you know. |
| 18:58.59 | Jamash | That's not a guidline, that's a mandate |
| 18:59.03 | ZorbaTHut | dammit. "oh look another Northrend green to disenchant, I hope I get another cosmic essence out of this! though dust wouldn't be bad either" |
| 18:59.05 | ZorbaTHut | BAM, dream shard |
| 18:59.12 | Shirik | um, I have to go to school |
| 18:59.17 | Shirik | so let me get back to you in like 10-15? |
| 18:59.20 | Dagmar | kcmcguire: It wasn't phrased as suggestions. They looked a hell of a lot like rules to me |
| 18:59.21 | Shirik | when I get there? |
| 18:59.34 | Cidan | kk |
| 18:59.35 | Adys | uh |
| 18:59.36 | Cidan | xD |
| 18:59.36 | kmcguire | Dagmar: Your right. It is not suggestions. They are guidelines. |
| 18:59.38 | Adys | was I blind? |
| 18:59.40 | ZorbaTHut | kmc, it stops being "guidelines" when they threaten legal action. |
| 18:59.53 | Adys | because I didnt see ANYTHING remotely close to "legal threat" |
| 18:59.55 | Adys | in the guidelines. |
| 18:59.56 | ZorbaTHut | At that point, it becomes a carefully phrased threat. |
| 19:00.01 | Jamash | "failure to abide by them may result in measures up to and including taking formal legal action." |
| 19:00.01 | kmcguire | ZorbaTHut: They said if they __need__ to use legal action. |
| 19:00.12 | Dagmar | Adys: Jamash quoted it |
| 19:00.15 | ZorbaTHut | adys, end of first paragraph. "failure to abide by them may result in measures up to and including taking formal legal action. " |
| 19:00.16 | Jamash | last sentence of first paragraph |
| 19:00.17 | AbsolutRayne | I need to stop messing with eepanels. |
| 19:00.20 | kmcguire | They mean if we __have__ to because something is too big of a problem and they can not contact you about it to fix it. |
| 19:00.25 | Adys | yeah up to |
| 19:00.31 | Dagmar | I mean, it DOES leave them room to completely leave QuestHelper alone |
| 19:00.49 | Jamash | I don't want the sword of damoclese hanging over my head, thanks. |
| 19:00.54 | Adys | that doesnt mean "Forgot to remove donation button? ***COURTSHOCK***" |
| 19:00.54 | Dagmar | ...adn I can't see them moving on such a minimalistic level of "bothering the user", but without some restriction in place, there's people who will go LOTS farther |
| 19:01.03 | kmcguire | failure to abide by them __may__ result in __measures__.... <pause> up to and including taking formal legal action. |
| 19:01.15 | Jamash | "We may decide to sue your ass at any moment, but we might not" is not a comforting statement. |
| 19:01.21 | ZorbaTHut | adys, no, but it does mean that I have to do it |
| 19:01.24 | Dagmar | Clearly that grey uncertainty has a lot of people very upset |
| 19:01.31 | Adys | yeah ZorbaTHut |
| 19:01.35 | ZorbaTHut | it's a "guideline" only up until they decide that I'm not voluntarily following their guideline |
| 19:01.37 | Tekkub | ugh, it's weird when you has a dream about a fight with your mother you never had |
| 19:01.41 | ZorbaTHut | at which point, oh hey, I guess it's not actually a guideline |
| 19:01.47 | ZorbaTHut | it's actually a rule. |
| 19:01.55 | Adys | just like my web host says "If i see you hosting porn Ill ask you to remove it" |
| 19:02.03 | kmcguire | ZorbatHut: Well that sounds a __lot__ better than here is a rule do not even go a hair over it. |
| 19:02.13 | Jamash | kmcguire: Not really. |
| 19:02.18 | kmcguire | I would rather someone give me some breathing room. |
| 19:02.29 | Adys | kmcguire: you're a python coder arent you? |
| 19:02.30 | Dagmar | Tekkub: So long as no one's naked |
| 19:02.37 | amro | Jamash: the ToU is basically "we may decide to ban your ass at any moment, but we might not" |
| 19:02.37 | Anaral_Eliza | I think with the ad thing, as long as you 'hide' it in the about/profiles and don't use popups/chat, that they'll probably leave you alone, or give you a slap on the hand. |
| 19:03.03 | Jamash | amro: banning my ass is not as bad as suing my ass |
| 19:03.13 | Jamash | "probably" |
| 19:03.18 | kmcguire | Adys: How did you come to the conclusion? lol |
| 19:03.28 | Adys | 8 underscores on two lines |
| 19:03.31 | Dagmar | Anaral_sleeps: See, there's a problem right there. "Hiding" it in the About panels you say. Even as the guideline currently stands, you arne't "hiding" them there. Presenting the user information like that on request is *not* a solicitation |
| 19:03.38 | ZorbaTHut | yeah, I'm not hugely interested in working on QH for a year, and then having Blizzard say "oh yeah, violation of contract, pay us lots of money or we sue you for damages" |
| 19:03.41 | kmcguire | Oh, lol. Nope. I do not do any python coding. |
| 19:03.46 | amro | Jamash: you only get banned in extreme circumstances. you'd only get sued in extreme circumstances |
| 19:03.49 | Adys | shame you'd be a great one. |
| 19:03.52 | Dagmar | Anaral_sleeps: But there's craploads of screaming on the forums by people swearing up and down that the guildelines forbid even that, which is just a lie |
| 19:04.10 | Adys | Jamash: if you're so worried about getting sued well dont try and break their rules |
| 19:04.12 | kmcguire | I do a lot of embedding programming with C and assembly for ARMs. |
| 19:04.16 | Adys | because you really have to actually try |
| 19:04.24 | Dagmar | This greyness is making some people _already_ take their addons out |
| 19:04.32 | Anaral_Eliza | Oh I know |
| 19:04.45 | Jamash | Adys: Their rules are overstepping the bounds of the law, but I can't afford legal representation. |
| 19:04.55 | Jamash | Catch-22 |
| 19:04.57 | Adys | except they're guidelines |
| 19:05.01 | ZorbaTHut | jamash, I'm not sure it's clear that they're overstepping the law, myself |
| 19:05.02 | Jamash | No, they're not. |
| 19:05.04 | amro | Jamash: you don't need any if they're overstepping the law |
| 19:05.12 | Jamash | amro: hahahahahahaha |
| 19:05.13 | amro | just don't show up in court, let the judge laugh at their claims |
| 19:05.14 | ZorbaTHut | adys, hey, I've got a guideline! you pay me a lot of money, and I *might not* break into your house and steal your stuff |
| 19:05.18 | ZorbaTHut | that's a guideline so it's legal |
| 19:05.20 | ZorbaTHut | now pay up |
| 19:05.23 | Dagmar | They could just as easily say users aren't allowed to run plugins that do certain things |
| 19:05.30 | Dagmar | ...and then ban the users that do... |
| 19:05.36 | ZorbaTHut | "guideline" does not make something legal. :P |
| 19:05.36 | amro | people are just overreacting |
| 19:05.48 | Dagmar | ...and then get a lawsuit from some company with an interest in selling gold to people |
| 19:05.48 | Aelobin | lolol i just made an addon to translate guild chat from german to english, then thought "why don't i change guild <_>" |
| 19:05.48 | Adys | everyone is overreacting |
| 19:05.49 | Jamash | I don't think ZorbaTHut is overreacting. |
| 19:05.50 | Anaral_Eliza | It's a shame really. I don't mind a small passive line asking for donations. I don't see why they're against those. |
| 19:06.00 | Adys | because its not what they're against |
| 19:06.08 | Ackis | Adys: blizzard are the only ones who ever reacted |
| 19:06.08 | kmcguire | I think Jamash is pushing people into over-reacting, lol. |
| 19:06.09 | Adys | they're against the giant donation windows and what other not |
| 19:06.16 | Anaral_Eliza | I can see why they'd be against pop-ups and chat spam |
| 19:06.19 | ZorbaTHut | adys, then why didn't they say "no popups"? |
| 19:06.25 | Dagmar | Anaral_sleeps: I say it's because the guidelines percolated through from the legal department without being tempered by the CS and management teams |
| 19:06.26 | Adys | uh |
| 19:06.28 | ZorbaTHut | why didn't they say "it's okay to post a message on startup in the chat log"? |
| 19:06.32 | Adys | because there's popups in the builtin UI? |
| 19:06.42 | Jamash | "Add-ons may not include requests for donations." is pretty clear to me. |
| 19:06.45 | Anaral_Eliza | Dagmar that could very well be. |
| 19:06.49 | Dagmar | Anaral_sleeps: I fully expect that once the weekend's over and those groups come back to the office, we'll probably see something more elaborate being said |
| 19:06.59 | Jamash | It says to me that addons may not include requests for donations. |
| 19:06.59 | amro | ZorbaTHut: simply because they didn't want to |
| 19:07.00 | Dagmar | Jamaash: Where's it say that? |
| 19:07.02 | Adys | its concise because if it weren't people would find 101 ways to work around it |
| 19:07.04 | Jamash | Section 5 |
| 19:07.06 | amro | ZorbaTHut: do you need a better reason than that? |
| 19:07.14 | *** join/#wowuidev lockeFan (n=lockeFan@ip68-5-98-4.oc.oc.cox.net) |
| 19:07.14 | ZorbaTHut | amro, sure, I'm just saying that this is why Adys's "they're not against the small stuff" doesn't add up |
| 19:07.17 | foxlit | Adys: why would anyone want to work around a guideline? |
| 19:07.19 | Ackis | ZorbaTHut: just cat all of your code into a file, and then send it to that e-mail address and say "because of threats of legal action I would like a code review to ensure that this code does not violate the guidelines" |
| 19:07.21 | ZorbaTHut | if they weren't against the small stuff, they wouldn't have banned the small stuff. |
| 19:07.25 | Dagmar | That's not what it said when I read it |
| 19:07.36 | foxlit | Unless, of course, it's a policy. |
| 19:07.41 | kmcguire | ZorbaTHut: Does you add-on including a donation button? |
| 19:07.52 | kmcguire | ZorbaTHut: And, does it include any advertisements? |
| 19:07.56 | ZorbaTHut | kmc, at the moment, which I'm pretty much leaving in because screw blizzard :P |
| 19:07.58 | ZorbaTHut | no ads |
| 19:07.58 | Adys | .. but they didnt "ban" the small stuff |
| 19:08.00 | amro | ZorbaTHut: they're not against your friend logging into your account to check your mail, but it's still explicitly forbidden in the ToU |
| 19:08.04 | Adys | they made a very clear guideline |
| 19:08.09 | Jamash | Adys: They did. |
| 19:08.10 | Dagmar | It said more than just that... It said "Add-ons may not solicit donations." and then specifically below it "Add-ons may not include requests for donations." which is likely to just make it clear that they mean _solicitations_ |
| 19:08.10 | ZorbaTHut | it used to include a message on startup, occasinoally, saying "hey please donate kthx" |
| 19:08.12 | Chompers | .txt file, size 30 font |
| 19:08.12 | kmcguire | ZorbaTHut: Problem solved. Leave it in. |
| 19:08.16 | Adys | no ffs they did not |
| 19:08.21 | amro | they don't enforce EVERYTHING, they just leave wiggle room |
| 19:08.22 | ZorbaTHut | that's disabled. I may re-enable it. I haven't decided. |
| 19:08.23 | Dagmar | This doesn't mean addons can't tell the user "To donate, go to www.blahblah.foo" |
| 19:08.29 | kmcguire | ZorbaTHut: If they contact you about it and say it is wrong then you take it out or do whatever. |
| 19:08.38 | Dagmar | It means they can't say "Please donate by going to www.blahblahblah.foo" |
| 19:08.45 | kmcguire | ZorbaTHut: Until then. Just keep working on the add-on. |
| 19:08.48 | ZorbaTHut | kmc, problem is, that little message is what let me work 40 hours a week on Questhelper. And now I can't. So. |
| 19:08.57 | kmcguire | ZorbaTHut: Problem solved. Leave it in. |
| 19:08.57 | Jamash | Dagmar: That's your personal interpretation. |
| 19:09.17 | Adys | OK |
| 19:09.18 | Dagmar | Jamash: No that's a very realistic interpretation based on what I've seen be done in courts before |
| 19:09.20 | Adys | Hold on |
| 19:09.21 | lockeFan | Don't work 40 hours a week on finding another way to make money through QuestHelper though |
| 19:09.25 | lockeFan | Don't even spend 24 hours |
| 19:09.26 | amro | are you guys actually sending any of your concerns to blizzard? |
| 19:09.34 | ZorbaTHut | locke, it might be interesting for a short period of time :) |
| 19:09.42 | lockeFan | And it might work |
| 19:09.49 | Jamash | does posting on the 9000 page sticky count as sending concerns to blizzard? |
| 19:09.52 | Adys | let's assume all they did was say "Addons with paying premium features or alike are not allowed" |
| 19:10.07 | Dagmar | Jamash: Two different ways they express the same concept. That is generally considered to be pretty damn clear |
| 19:10.17 | kmcguire | ZorbaTHut: I do not think they are targetting quest helper. I mean you only use a donate thing right? You do not show advertisements do you? |
| 19:10.18 | Adys | what would an addon author who wants people to pay for his addon do? |
| 19:10.22 | Dagmar | ...especially considering how vague these documents usually are |
| 19:10.30 | Adys | Reward the addon after a donation of x amount |
| 19:10.40 | ZorbaTHut | kmc, true, but, again - if they wanted to allow donation requests, they wouldn't have explicitly banned them. |
| 19:10.41 | Adys | thats exactly the same bollocks |
| 19:10.49 | ZorbaTHut | I think it's quite clear that they don't want my sort of donation request. |
| 19:10.57 | krka | ZorbaTHut: i would presume blizzard sends a friendly C&D before suiing |
| 19:10.57 | kmcguire | ZorbatHat: I think they are after other people. =P |
| 19:10.59 | krka | *sueing |
| 19:11.07 | Dagmar | Jamash: Ackis AboutBox with it's x-donate field doesn't "solicit" or "request" anything, and the user has to go looking for the about box to even see it. |
| 19:11.08 | ZorbaTHut | kmc, like who, all the other addons that asked for donations? :P |
| 19:11.15 | krka | basically "please stop this, or we will have to sue" |
| 19:11.17 | *** join/#wowuidev DKluge (n=dsquare@S0106001b1168ce28.va.shawcable.net) |
| 19:11.19 | kmcguire | ZorbatHat: They are having to include you with these other people in order to be able to fairly get to these other offenders. |
| 19:11.21 | zenzelezz | having a Matrix moment here... "Whoa, déjà vu" |
| 19:11.25 | krka | in fact, i think they've already sent stuff like this to carbonite |
| 19:11.26 | amro | Jamash: there's an email address, it's in the announcement |
| 19:11.26 | ZorbaTHut | *which* other people? |
| 19:11.34 | ZorbaTHut | Carbonite didn't ask for donations. |
| 19:11.38 | Adys | zenzelezz: a wowmatrix moment? |
| 19:11.39 | Adys | ~rimshot |
| 19:11.40 | purl | ba-dum CHH |
| 19:11.52 | kmcguire | ZorbatHat: *shrug*, I do not know. But, if all you have is a donate button and maybe a little startup message then I bet you are just fine. |
| 19:11.53 | Chompers | its database did, didn't it? |
| 19:11.57 | Dagmar | I'm betting tho that once the workweek comes back we'll probably see them relaz that a bit and allow QH and some others to go on with popping a line to the chat window at load time |
| 19:11.58 | Chompers | useless without that |
| 19:12.16 | zenzelezz | Adys: I'll admit I was subtle, but I thought people would recognize it as "oh hey, this discussion again" |
| 19:12.26 | Jamash | Add-ons |
| 19:12.28 | Dagmar | I''m also wagering that if Zorba mailed them, they'd tell him he was fine |
| 19:12.30 | Jamash | may not include |
| 19:12.32 | kmcguire | ZorbatHat: Blizzard has real people. And, I am sure your add-on is so large than they would **surely** give you a heads up that hey your donate ubtton is going to cause us problems. |
| 19:12.34 | Jamash | requests for donations |
| 19:12.35 | ZorbaTHut | dagmar, actually, I did. They didn't. |
| 19:12.38 | lockeFan | Why do you even have your addons on Curse and WoWInterface? |
| 19:12.43 | Adys | zenzelezz: I learned 2 years ago to be thick and loud if i wanted a joke to be understood |
| 19:12.43 | lockeFan | Is it because of the size of their donation buttons? |
| 19:12.50 | Adys | like add ~rimshot at the end of my sentences |
| 19:12.51 | Etanol | can a blizzard frame become bugged if I place a button in it? |
| 19:12.52 | lockeFan | Are you saying they're like WoWMatrix and they'll just take your work? |
| 19:12.57 | Dagmar | ZorbaTHut: They didn't reapond, or they told you you were going against their guidelines? |
| 19:12.59 | Adys | idd amro |
| 19:13.01 | ZorbaTHut | "Sorry about that Ben, but we had to take a hard line on "no ads" In game donations are ads." |
| 19:13.06 | ZorbaTHut | direct quote from the response |
| 19:13.22 | kmcguire | ZorbaThut: Did you specially tell them Quest Helper? |
| 19:13.25 | ZorbaTHut | "You are still able to link your site in your addon. And ask for donations there. I hope that will still allow you to work on QH." |
| 19:13.28 | kmcguire | specificially |
| 19:13.29 | ZorbaTHut | there's the rest of the email there :P |
| 19:13.33 | foxlit | kmcguire: what difference does *that* make? |
| 19:13.33 | zenzelezz | Adys: we knew you were thick and loud, we didn't know it was because you were joking |
| 19:13.34 | amro | I'd imagine they'd contact the addon author and blacklist the addon LONG before taking it to court |
| 19:13.36 | ZorbaTHut | (so, yes, because he mentions it) |
| 19:13.42 | Adys | .. wasnt that like |
| 19:13.45 | Adys | exactly what everyone said |
| 19:13.50 | foxlit | More importantly, what makes Zorba awesome enough to ask for donations while everyone else isn't able to? :) |
| 19:13.58 | lockeFan | So Blizzard has talked to you about this before? |
| 19:14.06 | Dagmar | OKay, so now we've got a specific instance of something we want happening, and just have to help them find a way to keep that but still keep *out* the things that were why they had to come out with this guideline |
| 19:14.13 | Chompers | addon complexity i guess? |
| 19:14.13 | Thrae | ZorbaTHut: So that's from Blizzard? Is this finally over? |
| 19:14.18 | krka | obviously all other addons are trivial foxlit, that's what i read on the forums atleast |
| 19:14.22 | kmcguire | ZorbatHut: Post the entire message. |
| 19:14.30 | ZorbaTHut | kmc, I just did, it was quite short :) |
| 19:14.31 | krka | lulz addons r trivial |
| 19:14.38 | Dagmar | foxlit: I'm hypersensitive to spam after years and years of it, so if I'm barely aware QH asks about it, it's pretty damn light |
| 19:14.41 | kmcguire | ZorbatHut: I mean the entire conversation. |
| 19:14.56 | kmcguire | ZorbatHut: I can not go on something that short. If I did one person could fool me. |
| 19:14.56 | Dagmar | Like, in a heartbeat I'd draw a line just outside what QH does if I could |
| 19:15.06 | amro | Dagmar: wouldn't years and years desentisize you? |
| 19:15.12 | amro | desensitize* |
| 19:15.14 | Dagmar | amro: I wish. |
| 19:15.24 | ZorbaTHut | here, hold on, I'll post it. do you know of a good site for textdumps? :P |
| 19:15.26 | amro | ~comfort Dagmar |
| 19:15.27 | purl | There, there, Dagmar. It's OK. I'm here for you. |
| 19:15.33 | Jamash | pastey.net? |
| 19:15.36 | Dagmar | amro: If someone opens up a shop that sells spam or malware within about a half-hour's drive from my house, I'm going to need a lawyer |
| 19:15.36 | Thrae | Dagmar: Basically QH's "spam" is on its page, when it starts up, and on the help menu (saying which command to learn more info about donating). That's it. |
| 19:15.37 | Adys | ZorbaTHut: pastebin.com? |
| 19:15.37 | kmcguire | Yes, let me find a pastebin. |
| 19:15.47 | Dagmar | Thrae: Yeah I know. It ain't much |
| 19:15.48 | kmcguire | Just remove your name and anything other specific names. |
| 19:15.57 | kmcguire | Or, post it anyway, lol./ |
| 19:16.01 | ZorbaTHut | or leave them in, I was never told it was confidential :P |
| 19:16.28 | ZorbaTHut | http://pastebin.com/daadd2f1 |
| 19:16.32 | Dagmar | amro: You just go straight to "outright furious" about spam if you've ever been made responsible for keeping a mail server that's doing spam filtering running |
| 19:17.05 | Thrae | Dagmar: More then most addons, which again isn't much. Hence why I was confused when people started talking about Blizzard going apeshit over addons like QuestHelper and not just addons like Carbonite Quest. It made no sense to me people would take their assumptions to such length. |
| 19:17.07 | Dagmar | ...or hell, any high-volume mail server actually. Usually at least *half* the load is spam, and that extra load is what gets you a good three-quarters of those middle-of-the-night service outages |
| 19:17.36 | Dagmar | Thrae: Yeah well, keep in mind the forums are a place where people feel free to be as big a pack of jackasses as they can be |
| 19:17.45 | Thrae | I'm talking about *here*. |
| 19:18.00 | Dagmar | Thrae: ...so those threads are full of insanely hyperbolic claims about what's supposedly being banned, which isn't productive |
| 19:18.01 | Thrae | I'm sure the forums were an even worse mess. |
| 19:18.20 | *** join/#wowuidev Vilkku (n=Vilkku@86-60-147-42-dyn-dsl.ssp.fi) |
| 19:18.44 | kmcguire | ZorbatHut: Link your site. And, tell people if they want to support Quest Helper go to your site. Just make sure that people are going to your site to support you by being a part of your community there. And, if a part of your community they happen to decide to donate, through some sly tactics, then that is fine. |
| 19:18.55 | Dagmar | Thrae: The more diffuse the various communities are about it, the less likely Blizz management is going to be to go to Blizz legal (the people probably pulling the strings that started this) to try to sort it out better |
| 19:19.04 | kmcguire | So basically. You can not pull them from inside the game with the reason for giving a donation. |
| 19:19.08 | Tekkub | you know... |
| 19:19.16 | Tekkub | QueryAuctionItems(nil, nil, nil, nil, nil, nil, nil, nil, nil, true) leads to some interesting guild chat |
| 19:19.18 | ZorbaTHut | My site is curse.com. If I were to set up my own site, I'd need a bunch of website design, I'd need servers, I'd need some way to pay for terabytes per month of transfers. |
| 19:19.21 | kmcguire | So basically. You can pull them to help support you at your site just not in a money way. |
| 19:19.32 | Fisker- | What does it do Tekkub ? |
| 19:19.45 | Tekkub | bogs down name lookup for about 5 min |
| 19:19.59 | Tekkub | so you only see chat from people who already talked until it's caught up |
| 19:20.08 | Tekkub | then you get the rest all at once |
| 19:20.20 | Fisker- | i'll try that |
| 19:20.31 | kmcguire | ZorbatHut: Just make a really simple site. |
| 19:20.31 | lockeFan | Is it possible that maybe having your own site, with all your downloads, might be able to offset that cost |
| 19:20.31 | Dagmar | Fisker-: Just load up auctioneer and click the fast getall scan |
| 19:20.37 | lockeFan | At all? |
| 19:20.45 | Adys | ZorbaTHut: how heavy is QH, compressed? |
| 19:20.49 | ZorbaTHut | adys, ~5mb |
| 19:20.55 | Fisker- | i don't use Auctioneer |
| 19:20.56 | Jamash | You could host it at Google Code or whatnot |
| 19:21.00 | Jamash | but that's not the point |
| 19:21.05 | Fisker- | didn't do shit here :( |
| 19:21.10 | kmcguire | Jamash, has a great idea Zorbat. |
| 19:21.12 | Fisker- | other than perform it's actions |
| 19:21.20 | krka | just host it on tpb |
| 19:21.20 | lockeFan | Why is everyone deciding that the only way to go forward from here is to get upset with Blizzard? |
| 19:21.22 | kmcguire | Host your site at google code and you do not pay any fees for traffic. |
| 19:21.27 | ZorbaTHut | I've considered doing stuff like that. I'm strongly unconvinced that I'd make anywhere near what I was before |
| 19:21.29 | kmcguire | Problem solved right? |
| 19:21.37 | Dagmar | lockeFan: Because they're not trying to be reasonable about it |
| 19:21.47 | Jamash | lockeFan: Why is Blizzard threatening to sue us? |
| 19:21.53 | kmcguire | ZorbaTHut: Well, you might not make as much money. Do you want to make some money or make no money? |
| 19:21.56 | ZorbaTHut | and the problem with that is that I was very close to the limit of feasability anyway |
| 19:22.19 | ZorbaTHut | kmc, if the choice is to make a small amount of money and have no free time, or make no money and have all my free time back, I'd take the latter. My time is valuable. |
| 19:22.26 | lockeFan | I think it's because some of us are using their addon system to put advertisements in the game, and hide how they're doing it |
| 19:22.30 | lockeFan | I don't think that's a mystery here |
| 19:22.39 | kmcguire | ZorbatHut: Just drop the feature release and slow down on bug fixes. |
| 19:22.47 | kmcguire | ZorbatHut: It is all you can do. |
| 19:22.57 | Dagmar | lockeFan: I think it's the ads that were going to be _coming_ that are what they're looking to stop |
| 19:22.59 | kmcguire | ZorbatHut: That is how the working world works. You just change direction. |
| 19:23.09 | Tekkub | or try to find someone else insane enough to take on QH :P |
| 19:23.16 | foxlit | kmcguire: your point is remarkably similar to "lie down and take it" |
| 19:23.20 | Dagmar | Or twenty people willing to take on a tenth of it |
| 19:23.46 | kmcguire | foxlit: Stop trying to make everyone angry. The only time I see you say anything is once you notice everyone has got quiet. |
| 19:23.47 | Tekkub | Dagmar, it doesn't work like that and you know it, you take all 10 inches or none at all |
| 19:24.01 | kmcguire | foxlit: It is almost like your on some type of troll or flame timer. |
| 19:24.15 | foxlit | kmcguire: way to ad hominem. |
| 19:24.15 | Dagmar | While I like QH and would like to see Zorba be able to keep going like he's been, if it's not possible to do that and keep out RMT people at the same time, then I'm going with the "no RMT" option personally |
| 19:24.20 | ZorbaTHut | kmc, yeah, that's my current primary plan |
| 19:24.31 | krka | RMT? |
| 19:24.37 | Dagmar | ...but I don't think those two goals are entirely mutually exclusive |
| 19:24.46 | Jamash | Dagmar: You'd rather give up the First Amendment to get rid of gold spam? |
| 19:24.49 | Xinhuan | get a team of members zorba |
| 19:24.50 | Dagmar | krka: Real Money Transations... i.e., "goldfarmers" |
| 19:24.53 | Xinhuan | see how atlasloot does it |
| 19:24.53 | kmcguire | ZorbaTHut: Okay! Now, that it is your primary plan. Keep on trying to fight with Blizzard in case you can get them to change their mind. |
| 19:24.55 | krka | i see |
| 19:25.02 | Dagmar | Jamash: First Amendment doesn't apply |
| 19:25.12 | kmcguire | ZorbaTHut: But, just be __ready__ to change direction some. |
| 19:25.14 | Jamash | Dagmar: Does in this case. |
| 19:25.18 | Dagmar | Jamash: No, it doesn't. |
| 19:25.24 | Jamash | Dagmar: Yes it does. |
| 19:25.35 | *** join/#wowuidev Shirik (n=Shirik@conspiracy/developer/Shirik) |
| 19:25.35 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o Shirik] by ChanServ |
| 19:25.45 | lockeFan | Why shouldn't Blizzard be able to say they don't want things in the video game that they make and actively upkeep in exchange for money? |
| 19:25.49 | Dagmar | Jamasah: No it doesn't. Get your local municipalities really really pissed at you a few times and you'll start paying closer attention to the law |
| 19:25.59 | ZorbaTHut | xinhuan, the problem is that questhelper is rather unlike most other ui mods out there - it's very heavily interwoven, very performance-dependent, and quite, quite complex. It's not one of those I-have-a-simple-database-with-a-GUI-strapped-to-it deals. |
| 19:26.04 | kmcguire | You know dont yank support all at once. Try to make sure the addon gets a few bugs fixed, and maybe work on it as much as you can on patch days, but other than that oh well. |
| 19:26.22 | ZorbaTHut | kmc, oh yeah, definitely. I mean, I'm releasing 1.0 eventually anyway |
| 19:26.23 | *** join/#wowuidev Kaso (n=Kaso@78.151.222.20) |
| 19:26.27 | krka | lockeFan: no one is arguing that they shouldn't be allowed to ban addons from working and/or banning users from playing if they misuse the game |
| 19:26.29 | ZorbaTHut | there's no way I'm working on something this long, then never releasing it into the wild |
| 19:26.37 | krka | the issue is mostly about the risk of being sued |
| 19:26.38 | Dagmar | You can't advertise for a service that is illegal, and it's been through the courts plenty of times to establish that arguing there's a 1st amendment right to do so is fail |
| 19:26.40 | Jamash | Dagmar: Blizzard is trying to use the legal system to suppress freedom of the press. |
| 19:26.46 | ZorbaTHut | that is simply not something that is happening |
| 19:26.49 | Jamash | Dagmar: Addons aren't illegal. |
| 19:26.55 | ZorbaTHut | dagmar, RMT isn't illegal. |
| 19:27.20 | Dagmar | Jamash: Freedom of the press is for reporting, not advertising. The two things are kept separate in the eyes of law and case precedent |
| 19:27.34 | Xinhuan | ZorbaTHut, no matter how complex and interwoven it is, it can be still done by a team |
| 19:27.36 | *** join/#wowuidev Vilkku (n=Vilkku@86-60-156-35-dyn-dsl.ssp.fi) |
| 19:27.37 | Anaral_Eliza | Jamash: No it doesn't first Amendment only applies to public domain. Blizzard is a private company, there fore they are not breaking the 1st amendment |
| 19:27.39 | Dagmar | ZorbaTHut: RMT is however, in violation of the EULA which is the scope under which this stuff falls |
| 19:27.40 | Xinhuan | remember Threat-2.0? |
| 19:27.53 | Jamash | Anaral_Eliza: Have you read the new UI "guidelines"? |
| 19:27.59 | lockeFan | How does any of this apply to what we do until a user logs into World of Warcraft with what we write? |
| 19:28.02 | Xinhuan | there's boss modules, class modules, core, syncing, comms, display, etc, and they all have to be woven together |
| 19:28.02 | Anaral_Eliza | Yes I have. |
| 19:28.10 | nevcairiel | threat-2.0 worked pretty good in oru small team, funny as it was |
| 19:28.11 | Jamash | "All add-ons must be distributed free of charge." <--- infringement |
| 19:28.23 | ZorbaTHut | xinhuan, yeah, 95% of that is either "a simple database" or "a UI" |
| 19:28.29 | Cidan | Infringement of what? |
| 19:28.35 | Xinhuan | not at all ;p |
| 19:28.36 | Jamash | If I write an addon from scratch, I own it, not Blizzard, and Blizzard has *no say* in what I can or can't charge for it. |
| 19:28.43 | lockeFan | So you can charge for it |
| 19:28.50 | Cidan | You can charge for it all you want. |
| 19:28.51 | Xinhuan | there are so many unique talents that each one required specific code |
| 19:28.53 | Dagmar | Jamash: They could however, sue you |
| 19:28.54 | lockeFan | Nobody can use it in World of Warcraft, though |
| 19:28.55 | Cidan | It will just be disabled. |
| 19:28.59 | Xinhuan | and then each talent interacts with other talents |
| 19:29.05 | nevcairiel | threat-2.0 was a big hack job |
| 19:29.08 | Xinhuan | on the % of what it modifies |
| 19:29.08 | nevcairiel | truth :/ |
| 19:29.12 | Jamash | Various Persons: I never said Blizzard can't block it. |
| 19:29.17 | Cidan | Blizzard can't sue you, why is everyone throwing that phrase around? |
| 19:29.18 | Jamash | Dagmar: For what? |
| 19:29.19 | Xinhuan | its not a "database" as you think it is |
| 19:29.31 | Cidan | Blizzard can't, and won't sue you. There are no legal grounds, period. |
| 19:29.35 | Jamash | Dagmar: If I sell my own work, what *legal* grounds does Blizzard have? |
| 19:29.40 | Cidan | I really, really wish people would get their heads out of their asses. |
| 19:29.49 | Cidan | What they can, and would do, is disable your addon. |
| 19:29.49 | krka | can't sue? |
| 19:29.53 | Cidan | can't sue. |
| 19:29.56 | Dagmar | Jamesh: For interfering with their right to do business by facilitating users doing things which are going to get them banned because Blizz forbid specific types of things to go on in the client, like ads |
| 19:29.57 | Jamash | can't sue! |
| 19:30.01 | krka | sure they can sue - everyone can sue anyone for anything |
| 19:30.06 | krka | it's the american way |
| 19:30.07 | Jamash | Dagmar: Pfffffffffft |
| 19:30.12 | mikma | krka: rofl |
| 19:30.15 | Cidan | You know what I mean, krka. |
| 19:30.16 | Tekkub | you know, this has all gotten really old, frankly |
| 19:30.23 | Xinhuan | Jamash, they can sue you - but they can only win if they can prove that your addon selling causes damages to them |
| 19:30.23 | Dagmar | Jamash: It's how those types of lawsuits roll |
| 19:30.28 | Tekkub | just sit back and watch what happens with Carbonite |
| 19:30.32 | Jamash | Dagmar: Pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft |
| 19:30.34 | Tekkub | then you'll have your answer |
| 19:30.44 | Anaral_Eliza | Cidan they have the 'take legal action' clause for companies like Glider or other goldfarmers, not for the modest addon dev. |
| 19:30.45 | Cidan | Xinhuan: No |
| 19:31.19 | Jamash | Dagmar: Blizzard has no policy against using said addons, only selling them. |
| 19:31.19 | Xinhuan | "causing damage to them" is pretty vague. if your addon allows users to break the EULA (such as inter faction comms), then its liable for tortious interference of contract |
| 19:31.35 | Dagmar | Jamash: Read the policy statement again |
| 19:31.45 | Xinhuan | Cidan: did you read the EULA |
| 19:31.52 | Jamash | "design and distribution guidelines" |
| 19:32.11 | Xinhuan | "You agree that you will not, under any circumstances: [...] use cheats, automation software (bots), hacks, mods or any other unauthorized third-party software designed to modify the World of Warcraft experience;" |
| 19:32.18 | Anaral_Eliza | And if people would stop the 'Hand-Waving Freakoutery©' for a sec and think about it, they'd realize it. |
| 19:32.20 | Xinhuan | addons are 3rd party software |
| 19:32.23 | kmcguire | Jamash: Your right (excluding anything legal because I am not lawyer). They have no say in what you charge. |
| 19:32.32 | Xinhuan | and they are by default implicitly allowed |
| 19:32.33 | Cidan | Xinhuan: Use, or write? |
| 19:32.33 | kmcguire | Jamash: But, they could win the battle. |
| 19:32.41 | Jamash | Catch 22 again? |
| 19:32.45 | Xinhuan | you're not getting the full picture Cidan |
| 19:32.50 | Dagmar | Jamash: Kvetch all you like but Xinhuan is dead center about the verbiage of the lawsuits that happen |
| 19:32.54 | Jamash | I should give up my rights because someone has more money than me? |
| 19:33.01 | Xinhuan | i can write an addon, and i can sell it Cidan |
| 19:33.02 | kmcguire | Jasmash: Your not giving up your rights. |
| 19:33.11 | Jamash | kmcguire: Yes, I am. |
| 19:33.12 | Xinhuan | by me selling my addon, i break no law, and i break no contract |
| 19:33.20 | Xinhuan | but if this addon causes another user to break the EULA |
| 19:33.21 | kmcguire | Jasmash: Your using you right to write a addon and let people use it when it includes a donate button. |
| 19:33.24 | Xinhuan | then blizzard can sue me |
| 19:33.37 | Xinhuan | for tortious interference with contract (see Glider case document #95 at http://news.justia.com/cases/featured/arizona/azdce/2:2006cv02555/322017/). |
| 19:33.38 | kmcguire | Jasmash: Blizzard will likely not be able to sue you. |
| 19:33.42 | Cidan | Slightly true, mostly because of the Glider case. |
| 19:33.54 | kmcguire | Jasmash: They will likely just ban your add-on using their client. |
| 19:34.03 | kmcguire | Jasmash: Which is their right, right? |
| 19:34.06 | Jamash | kmcguire: That's fine, they have every right to do that. |
| 19:34.07 | Lopeppeppy | "please don't hesitate to email us at WoWUI@blizzard.com. " |
| 19:34.16 | kmcguire | Jasmash: So. Your rights are not being hurt. |
| 19:34.22 | Xinhuan | right now, the EULA says that users cannot use unauthorized mods |
| 19:34.31 | Xinhuan | and the list of unauthorized mods isn't announced yet |
| 19:34.42 | Lopeppeppy | Never will be. |
| 19:34.45 | Jamash | Addons are not bots hacks, mods or third-party software |
| 19:34.55 | krka | aren't all mods unauthorized? |
| 19:34.55 | Xinhuan | addons are 3rd party software |
| 19:35.00 | Anaral_Eliza | kmcguire: lrn 2 TabComplete names... He's Jamash, not Jasmash. ;) |
| 19:35.05 | Xinhuan | yes krka, they are implicitly via the wow API |
| 19:35.14 | kmcguire | Anaral_Elizb: I am sorry. |
| 19:35.16 | Xinhuan | but certain addons are NOT allowed |
| 19:35.22 | Xinhuan | such as Interfaction comms |
| 19:35.31 | foxlit | (I wonder why the term "2nd party" doesn't get thrown around in those agreements) |
| 19:35.31 | Xinhuan | its in the EULA directly |
| 19:35.43 | lockeFan | So why was it okay for Blizzard to tell us what we could do with addons before, and not now? |
| 19:35.52 | Xinhuan | read this http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15864298038&sid=1#6 |
| 19:35.53 | Anaral_Eliza | No biggy. Just saying... :D |
| 19:35.54 | Xinhuan | i made a post |
| 19:36.03 | nevcairiel | lockeFan: because now it goes around $$ :P |
| 19:36.29 | *** join/#wowuidev zhane (n=julien@roa76-4-82-228-209-218.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 19:36.34 | Dagmar | foxlit: Because "the user" is a lot easier to type |
| 19:36.46 | Xinhuan | please read the link Cidan |
| 19:36.48 | Jamash | "Blizzard may, at its sole and absolute discretion, allow the use of certain third party user interfaces" |
| 19:36.57 | foxlit | Dagmar: more in the context of "3rd party software". |
| 19:37.08 | Duman | Xinhuan: next thing you know, Microsoft won't let you sell anything that uses their OS... |
| 19:37.09 | *** join/#wowuidev Vilkkuu (n=Vilkku@86-60-157-70-dyn-dsl.ssp.fi) |
| 19:37.23 | krka | Duman: i'd like that actually |
| 19:37.25 | Jamash | third-party user interfaces are distinct from third-party software in the TOS |
| 19:37.27 | Dagmar | foxlit: Yes, and in contacts generally the first party is the people who wrote the thing and the second party are the people agreeing to it |
| 19:37.35 | krka | that would make windows obsolete much quicker |
| 19:37.38 | Xinhuan | well that's the thing, if addons aren't considered "mods" or "3rd party software" in the context of the EULA, then what are addons? |
| 19:37.48 | lockeFan | I guess Windows is like World of Warcraft if you count my mom |
| 19:37.48 | Jamash | "third-party interfaces" |
| 19:37.49 | Dagmar | ALIENS! |
| 19:37.53 | krka | it wuold actually be a good bug fix for ubuntu bug #1 |
| 19:37.54 | lockeFan | She only uses it to play FreeCell :P |
| 19:38.04 | Dagmar | Addons are software." |
| 19:38.06 | nevcairiel | Xinhuan: addons are "3rd party addons", but they have a paragraph where they are explicitly allowed |
| 19:38.10 | foxlit | Dagmar: Indeed, and that is what I consider obvious. But If I wrote some piece of software -- it wouldn't be a 3rd party in our agreement -- and therefore wouldn't violate it? |
| 19:38.12 | Xinhuan | can you link a document where blizzard refers to addons as "third-party interfaces"? |
| 19:38.18 | Cidan | I give up; my experience in this sort of matter is limited; I only spent 3 years working in a law firm. |
| 19:38.19 | Xinhuan | exactly nevcairiel |
| 19:38.29 | Xinhuan | the EULA has an exception clause for addons |
| 19:38.32 | Cidan | So, I'm going to opt to shut my mouth and see how it works out. |
| 19:38.47 | Dagmar | foxlit: It wouldn't violate anything that specified both "third party" and "software" but the EULA/ToS covers stuff without respect to who wrote it just fine |
| 19:38.47 | Xinhuan | so my point goes back to the EULA - they can at any time choose to outlaw any addon for any purpose |
| 19:38.50 | Jamash | TOS 2C |
| 19:38.59 | Jamash | EULA 2D |
| 19:39.02 | Xinhuan | and that addon would suddenly become liable to be sued for tortious interference with contract |
| 19:39.03 | nevcairiel | "Blizzard may, at its sole and absolute discretion, allow the use of certain third party user interfaces; " |
| 19:39.11 | nevcairiel | thats ToS 2x |
| 19:39.12 | nevcairiel | 2c |
| 19:39.13 | Jamash | Xinhuan: That's a giant leap |
| 19:39.24 | Xinhuan | but that's the way law works |
| 19:39.26 | Jamash | a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge leap |
| 19:39.28 | Dagmar | Jamash: No it's actually not |
| 19:39.38 | Xinhuan | you can be liable. whether blizzard will actually do it is another thing |
| 19:39.45 | krka | it happened to glider |
| 19:39.47 | Xinhuan | but the facts are there |
| 19:39.54 | Dagmar | Jamash: There's rather a great deal of precedent that's already been set by satellite dish and cable piracy |
| 19:39.56 | krka | could happen to any addon that blizzard deems bad |
| 19:39.56 | Jamash | So you're saying that Blizzard can sue any addon maker *for any reason at any time* and win? |
| 19:40.06 | Xinhuan | Jamash: Yes |
| 19:40.08 | Jamash | Glider != addon |
| 19:40.10 | kmcguire | This world runs on money. So once you start playing with big money you become a big target. |
| 19:40.12 | Cidan | Again, I would question it. It's hardly a fact, and it's clearly a matter of debate, so. |
| 19:40.13 | zhane | hello, is there someone who know how to play wow on linux ? |
| 19:40.18 | Cidan | zhane: wine, xD |
| 19:40.20 | Xinhuan | Jamash: But only if they can prove that DAMAGES ARE CAUSED |
| 19:40.28 | krka | both are 3rd party software that modifies the wow experience |
| 19:40.29 | Dagmar | zhane: Yes, Wine or Cedega are your two options |
| 19:40.38 | Xinhuan | for "tortious interference with contract" to be proven, there are 4 things to prove |
| 19:40.38 | Jamash | No they're not, krka |
| 19:40.48 | lockeFan | Wait |
| 19:40.55 | Adys | zhane: http://wowwiki.com/Wine |
| 19:40.57 | lockeFan | Jamash: Either they are or they aren't |
| 19:40.58 | Jamash | Even within the TOS / EULA they are treated seperately |
| 19:41.10 | lockeFan | Is the User Interface part of WoW? |
| 19:41.12 | Dagmar | Listen in Xinhuan... I couldn't quote the four criteria without a long Google search |
| 19:41.14 | lockeFan | Do we improve the experience? |
| 19:41.16 | zhane | I've installed it with wine but it don't work |
| 19:41.25 | *** join/#wowuidev netcurse (n=hthieblo@12.150.239.130) |
| 19:41.25 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+v netcurse] by ChanServ |
| 19:41.28 | Adys | zhane: join #wowwiki ill help you there |
| 19:41.32 | zhane | http://pastebin.archlinux.fr/333864 |
| 19:41.33 | Adys | too much useless discussions in here right now |
| 19:41.35 | zhane | ok |
| 19:41.53 | Xinhuan | Dagmar: the 4 things are |
| 19:42.00 | Xinhuan | To establish tortious interference, Blizzard must show that |
| 19:42.03 | Dagmar | Adys: Looks like he's missing GL. |
| 19:42.04 | Xinhuan | (1) a valid contractual relationship exists between Blizzard and its customers, |
| 19:42.05 | Jamash | EULA 2B covers "third-party software" |
| 19:42.12 | Xinhuan | (2) Defendant knows of the relationship, |
| 19:42.12 | Adys | Dagmar: looks like hes using ATI yeah |
| 19:42.21 | Xinhuan | (3) Defendant has intentionally and improperly interfered in the relationship and caused a breach or termination of the relationship, and |
| 19:42.26 | Jamash | EULA 2D covers "third party user interfaces" |
| 19:42.28 | Xinhuan | (4) Blizzard has been damaged as a result. |
| 19:42.41 | Cidan | Xinhuan: Hi, can you stop being Internet Lawyer for a second? |
| 19:42.45 | Dagmar | Having to ban customers for botting made that one pretty easy for Glider to get into trouble |
| 19:42.48 | Xinhuan | ok! |
| 19:42.49 | zhane | Adys, I'm already on this channel |
| 19:42.57 | Cidan | Good, thanks. |
| 19:43.00 | Adys | zhane: i asked you a question there :p |
| 19:43.01 | krka | IAALOTI |
| 19:43.13 | nevcairiel | lol krka |
| 19:43.16 | Xinhuan | these 4 things are copypasta from the court document btw, in the glider case |
| 19:43.17 | foxlit | of the internet? |
| 19:43.20 | krka | on |
| 19:43.24 | zenzelezz | Cidan: this is the Internet, everyone's a lawyer |
| 19:43.28 | Lopeppeppy | Glider case /= the current discussion. |
| 19:43.29 | foxlit | ah |
| 19:43.36 | Lopeppeppy | zenzelezz, that's exactly the problem. :) |
| 19:43.42 | Dagmar | This is the internet, if you don't pay attention to law you're more likely to get your ass sued. |
| 19:43.43 | Xinhuan | so while i'm not a lawyer, it is directly copied from the words of Judge Campbell's judgement |
| 19:43.50 | *** part/#wowuidev zhane (n=julien@roa76-4-82-228-209-218.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 19:43.53 | Lopeppeppy | So? Doesn't mean it applies. |
| 19:44.00 | Jamash | Glider was a DMCA case |
| 19:44.05 | Jamash | does not apply to addons |
| 19:44.06 | krka | how did blizzard prove that glider hurt them? |
| 19:44.07 | Cidan | zenzelezz: Except my mother actually is one, and I too have had extensive work with tort law, so. |
| 19:44.12 | Cidan | GOD DAMN IT |
| 19:44.12 | cog|away | no, glider was both a dmca case and a tortious interference case |
| 19:44.13 | Cidan | I'm |
| 19:44.14 | Cidan | HUNGRY |
| 19:44.15 | Cidan | brb |
| 19:44.22 | Dagmar | Yeah but those are still the four "guidelines" for establishing a tortuous interference contract |
| 19:44.28 | cog|away | exactly |
| 19:44.28 | Dagmar | s/contract/claim/; |
| 19:44.30 | zenzelezz | Cidan: your mother being a lawyer makes you hungry? |
| 19:44.31 | Lopeppeppy | So? |
| 19:44.33 | cog|away | which is why it applies |
| 19:44.35 | Lopeppeppy | That doesn't mean they apply. |
| 19:44.36 | Cidan | zenzelezz: Yes, xD |
| 19:44.51 | Lopeppeppy | Y'all are rules lawyering the world to death, and it gains you nothing but air time. |
| 19:44.56 | nevcairiel | krka: in a nutshell, they said that glider actively promoted their users to breach contract, thus leading to blizzard terminating the contract (ban people), and thus losing money from it |
| 19:45.00 | Xinhuan | Blizzard proved that glider hurt them in spending thousands of manhours updating warden to detect glider, in spending manpower answering 500000 (this number is quoted in the court document) tickets on bots, and in an un-determinable amount of lost subscriptions as a result |
| 19:45.04 | kmcguire | Is the glider website and author still operating? |
| 19:45.12 | kmcguire | I think he is, but not sure. |
| 19:45.14 | Xinhuan | kmcguire: as of 13 days ago no |
| 19:45.25 | Xinhuan | the court issued a permanent injunction on march 10 |
| 19:45.27 | krka | nevcairiel: i see, that almost seems like circular logic |
| 19:45.34 | krka | but not really |
| 19:46.06 | Dagmar | krka: Yep, this is why we have courts... so people can in theory keep a cool head and look very closely at things |
| 19:46.09 | ScytheBlade1 | kmcguire: website, yes. new sales and existing purchases, no |
| 19:46.11 | Anaral_Eliza | Cidan while not completely debunking your experience, but just because your parent is lawyer doesn't mean you know more than Xin or anyone else for that matter. |
| 19:46.23 | Xinhuan | note that the original charge against glider was on copyright infringement - the tortious claim and the DMCA claim was added later |
| 19:46.44 | Cidan | Anaral_Eliza: No, but I used to work in the field, I'm not going to argue either way at this point, just, ease up on the copy/paste from a court document and claiming it as fact |
| 19:46.52 | Cidan | That's all I'm asking. |
| 19:47.01 | krka | i regularly say stuff like "i am right, you dont know what youre talkig about, i am an engineer!" |
| 19:47.05 | Cidan | We all have opinions, let's keep at as that. |
| 19:47.12 | Cidan | er, it |
| 19:47.13 | Cidan | it |
| 19:47.18 | Dagmar | Let's no going gettnig all egalitarian now |
| 19:47.29 | Dagmar | s/no going/not go/; |
| 19:47.40 | Anaral_Eliza | lol |
| 19:47.54 | Xinhuan | see, it wouldn't have been so bad if BLizzard's UI policy didn't include the few words "including taking formal legal action." |
| 19:48.16 | zenzelezz | but it sounds cooler than "including taking informal legal action" |
| 19:48.22 | Dagmar | Xinhuan: That bit right there is mainly why I suspect it was legal that wrote that policy |
| 19:48.44 | kmcguire | The glider author gained a lot of reputation. He can likely find a job working somewhere better if he wanted too now. |
| 19:48.48 | Dagmar | zenzeless: Well, big companies can't say "because we'll burn your @#$@ house down" |
| 19:48.54 | zenzelezz | maybe they could've gone with "laid-back legal action" |
| 19:49.02 | Xinhuan | kmcguire, he is also facing bankrupcy |
| 19:49.13 | Xinhuan | he is currently personally liable for 6.5 mil to blizzard |
| 19:49.28 | kmcguire | Xinhuan, Have they actually made that judgement yet? |
| 19:49.30 | Xinhuan | yes |
| 19:49.35 | Xinhuan | in the last week of Feb |
| 19:49.39 | Dagmar | Kinda sucks but he should have gotten some clue about the fact that it was costing Blizz money |
| 19:49.43 | kmcguire | No, I mean has the court ordered him to pay? |
| 19:49.46 | Xinhuan | http://news.justia.com/cases/featured/arizona/azdce/2:2006cv02555/322017/ |
| 19:49.53 | Xinhuan | See article #114 |
| 19:50.17 | Xinhuan | read the whole PDF if you want |
| 19:50.34 | kmcguire | Xinhaun: He should have not resisted. |
| 19:50.38 | Xinhuan | ok march 3.. so a week after when i thought it was |
| 19:50.54 | kmcguire | Xinhaun: Basically, when you are faced with being sued. You should sorta say wait a minute. Can I afford to be wrong. |
| 19:51.01 | *** join/#wowuidev Ose (n=Ose@wikia/Ose) |
| 19:51.10 | Dagmar | Well, in his case he should have said "Wait a minute, am I wrong?" |
| 19:51.16 | kmcguire | I imagine someone would have let him off the hook if he would have stopped early on. |
| 19:51.19 | nevcairiel | He probably had some smart internet lawyer that said he could win |
| 19:51.36 | Xinhuan | actually he already offered to take down and close MDY |
| 19:51.43 | Xinhuan | blizzard didn't accept this and went to sue for damages |
| 19:51.50 | ZorbaTHut | dude shoulda incorporated |
| 19:52.13 | nevcairiel | Xinhuan: well that probably stopped others from trying, not so bad move if you ask me |
| 19:52.31 | Dagmar | Xinhuan: really, becasue i was reading stuff to the effect that he was making threats to release source just to harm Blizz and considering other really stupid options |
| 19:52.36 | Xinhuan | the injunction can be appealed though |
| 19:52.53 | Xinhuan | because it affects a significant portion of this fella's income |
| 19:52.59 | kmcguire | He had a counterclaim, haha. |
| 19:53.00 | Xinhuan | but not even 1% of blizzard's |
| 19:53.09 | Xinhuan | the documents even write this |
| 19:53.11 | ZorbaTHut | xinhuan, at that point he might as well - it's not like it'll actually cost him any money |
| 19:53.18 | Xinhuan | which is pretty funny to me |
| 19:53.28 | ZorbaTHut | if he loses, he declares bankruptcy. if he doesn't try, he declares bankruptcy. |
| 19:53.44 | Dagmar | If he wins, he'll probably still be facing bankruptcy |
| 19:53.47 | Lopeppeppy | I love you all. Please remember the advice of Bill and Ted, "Be excellent to one another". Ta! |
| 19:53.49 | *** part/#wowuidev Lopeppeppy (n=Lopeppep@cpe-69-204-134-64.nycap.res.rr.com) |
| 19:53.56 | ZorbaTHut | oh, maybe, but he'd be able to start up Glider again ;) |
| 19:54.05 | Dagmar | Jesus no |
| 19:54.07 | Dagmar | Let's not have that |
| 19:54.35 | Dagmar | It gets a little tiresome reporting botters |
| 19:54.51 | nevcairiel | yeah its really alot better since its gone |
| 19:55.37 | Dagmar | Yeah I noticed a number of changes to the lower end of several gathered resources markets shortly after the Big Round Of Bans, and some more recently |
| 19:56.06 | ZorbaTHut | ah, it looks like he is incorporated. that's good |
| 19:56.22 | kmcguire | His company is plantiff, not him. So he does not personally have to pay? |
| 19:56.30 | Jamash | doesn't apparently do him any good, the judge awarded the damages against him individually |
| 19:56.35 | ZorbaTHut | oh, no, looks like the judge decided to dodge that |
| 19:56.36 | Xinhuan | ^ |
| 19:56.37 | ZorbaTHut | odd, I wonder why |
| 19:56.41 | Dagmar | kmcguire: That's largely the reason people incorporate actually |
| 19:56.46 | Xinhuan | his company has 3 people |
| 19:56.50 | Xinhuan | himself and 2 employees |
| 19:56.53 | kmcguire | Yeah, he made some bad moves then. |
| 19:56.54 | Xinhuan | which follow his direction |
| 19:56.57 | Jamash | that's what the LL in LLC stands for, is "limited liability" |
| 19:57.00 | kmcguire | You know bad moves can cost you. |
| 19:57.21 | Dagmar | Yeah theres ways to abandon or forfeit that protection but I dunno WTF they are |
| 19:57.26 | nevcairiel | Yea the judge ruled that he is personally liable |
| 19:57.46 | Xinhuan | he basically writes glider or something, and the other 2 setup the websites and promotion of the product and the billing, etc |
| 19:57.57 | *** join/#wowuidev QQngsk (n=Gngsk@c-69-138-214-242.hsd1.md.comcast.net) |
| 19:58.02 | Jamash | I'm rather disturbed by the claim that botting is copyright violation. |
| 19:58.04 | ScytheBlade1 | Jamash: which is why Blizz sued BOTH the LLC and the individual. Didn't help out the glider guy one little bit. |
| 19:58.22 | Dagmar | If he didn't surrender full rights to Glider to the LLC that would be one way to wind up stuck |
| 19:58.34 | Adys | Uhm |
| 19:58.40 | Xinhuan | Jamash, by copyright law, copying wow.exe from harddisk to RAM is considered copying - but this is allowed as the end user has a liscense to do this |
| 19:58.40 | nevcairiel | Jamash: unauthorized reading of memory, falls under the copyright laws |
| 19:58.53 | Adys | how do I sort a table's keys (they're all ints) |
| 19:59.03 | nevcairiel | Adys: table.sort? |
| 19:59.04 | Xinhuan | Glider then MODIFIES this copy of wow.exe in the RAM - thus creating a deviarative work - and thus infringed on copyrigt |
| 19:59.07 | Adys | oh. |
| 19:59.10 | krka | you dont sort keys |
| 19:59.14 | krka | you sort values |
| 19:59.16 | Adys | er |
| 19:59.18 | nevcairiel | well yes, you sort the values |
| 19:59.18 | Adys | yeah values |
| 19:59.19 | Adys | its late |
| 19:59.25 | nevcairiel | but table.sort |
| 19:59.29 | ScytheBlade1 | Jamash: ah. You miss details of the implimentation. Glider has (had?) a mode which launched WoW under itself for you, allowing for a more "secured" way of avoiding Warden. Or, "it" contained all of WoW. (iirc) |
| 19:59.31 | Xinhuan | at least, that's how the judge put it heheh |
| 19:59.31 | nevcairiel | only works on a array table, though |
| 20:00.22 | Xinhuan | derivative* rather |
| 20:00.22 | Jamash | Creating a copy on a user's computer for their own personal use should not be considered copyright infrigement. |
| 20:00.52 | ScytheBlade1 | The user didn't, the third party software that openly admits it violates the EULA did. |
| 20:00.56 | Xinhuan | jamash - it is, but under law, because you need to copy the program from disk to ram, the liscense to do so is implied |
| 20:01.01 | Jamash | any more than cutting up a copy of Newsweek and making a collage is copyright infringement |
| 20:01.21 | Jamash | SB1: Software can't violate copyright, only people. |
| 20:01.36 | ZorbaTHut | jamash, the problem is that "copying" thing. nobody would claim that reading Newsweek "copies into your brain", but somehow running software "copies into RAM" |
| 20:01.42 | ScytheBlade1 | Jamash: which is why they sued the creator of glider, not the users. |
| 20:01.57 | Jamash | SB1: He didn't copy wow on users's computers, they did. |
| 20:02.07 | ScytheBlade1 | .......... |
| 20:02.14 | ScytheBlade1 | I'm done with this thread |
| 20:02.18 | ScytheBlade1 | (of convo) |
| 20:02.23 | Xinhuan | Jamash: the court ruled that GLider knowingly assisted users to breach the EULA |
| 20:02.25 | ScytheBlade1 | I've been way too emo in the past couple days anyway :P |
| 20:02.25 | Adys | nevcairiel: what if my table is not an array table? =P |
| 20:02.46 | Xinhuan | that is tortious interference with contract |
| 20:02.47 | nevcairiel | Adys: function sortHashTable(t) .. magic here ..; return t; end |
| 20:03.32 | Jamash | Xinhuan: EULAs are not contracts. |
| 20:03.39 | Xinhuan | the end users didn't break any law - the end users broke the EULA contract |
| 20:03.42 | Xinhuan | it is a contract :) |
| 20:03.52 | kmcguire | I bet his lawyers really might not have cared if he got sued or not. You know they do not have to pay, lol. |
| 20:03.53 | Xinhuan | when you click ACCEPT, you enter into a contract with blizzard |
| 20:03.56 | cog|away | Jamash: so far, the courts seem to disagree |
| 20:03.58 | nevcairiel | no company went to court yet to test the EULA |
| 20:04.11 | nevcairiel | directly, that is |
| 20:04.24 | Xinhuan | the court found it binding, that's why everyone is surprised that blizzard won the case by citing the EULA |
| 20:04.27 | Jamash | cog|away: Some courts have, some courts haven't |
| 20:04.32 | cog|away | can't have tortious interference if you don't have a contract in the first place |
| 20:04.46 | nevcairiel | indeed, thats where the EULA stuck |
| 20:04.50 | Xinhuan | the contract is on accepting the EULA/TOS |
| 20:04.54 | kmcguire | Haha, he damanded a jury trial. |
| 20:04.57 | Xinhuan | between blizz-user |
| 20:04.58 | kmcguire | demanded |
| 20:05.05 | Cidan | Shirik: <3? |
| 20:05.09 | kmcguire | So he basically said. Bring it on guys. You cant touch me. |
| 20:05.20 | kmcguire | And they touched him for life, lmao. |
| 20:05.28 | ScytheBlade1 | kmcguire: yup |
| 20:05.42 | Xinhuan | #95 is the main ruling and is widely publicized |
| 20:05.45 | Xinhuan | the rest is just followups |
| 20:05.54 | cog|away | For the record, I'm sick and tired of the "you're not a lawyer so stfu" attitude I see from some people. Lawyers are not some divinely inspired cabal with access to information unavailable to mere mortals |
| 20:06.05 | cog|away | Arguments from authority ftw |
| 20:06.14 | Adys | you're not a lawyer cog so stfu |
| 20:06.17 | Adys | er, sorry |
| 20:06.18 | Adys | meant to say hi! |
| 20:06.39 | kmcguire | I would have just said. Hey, blizzard. I am sorry. I will help you fix this situation. And, then found me a better job somewhere making plenty of money (maybe not as much as selling glider). |
| 20:06.47 | cog|away | Even if we were all lawyers, we could still be having the exact same conversation with the exact same opposing viewpoints |
| 20:06.50 | kmcguire | Or, maybe more, lol. |
| 20:07.04 | cog|away | lawyers look at statutes, past cases, and build a picture of the situation |
| 20:07.11 | Xinhuan | have to read it to see how all this is linked to addons, its pretty sad |
| 20:07.20 | cog|away | then they present their reasons for believing their point of view |
| 20:07.27 | cog|away | there is absolutely no reason any of us can't do the same |
| 20:07.45 | cog|away | the only difference is that you can sue us if we try to advise you to act in a certain way |
| 20:08.04 | cog|away | so let us have our conversations and stop bitching about us not being lawyers |
| 20:08.21 | kmcguire | cog: Yeah, I agree. |
| 20:08.27 | kmcguire | It makes sense. |
| 20:08.34 | ScytheBlade1 | Adys: the keys are like, right next to each other |
| 20:08.38 | cog|away | none of us is under any illusion that we're lawyers, so it's not like anyone's going to take us seriously anyway :P |
| 20:08.42 | Adys | yeah |
| 20:08.56 | Dagmar | I've got more experience avoiding being sued or prosecuted than most people. :) |
| 20:08.56 | kmcguire | cog: Well, some of the add-on authors might. Like QH and the others. |
| 20:08.59 | nevcairiel | I believe anything cog says! |
| 20:09.00 | *** join/#wowuidev KarlThePagan (n=karl@66.225.8.145) |
| 20:09.26 | *** join/#wowuidev Gnarfoz (i=smallbra@geektour.de) |
| 20:09.37 | Xinhuan | can you tell me if my hidden donation link will get me sued? :D |
| 20:09.49 | Jamash | Dagmar: Sued for what? |
| 20:10.13 | Dagmar | If it's not a solicitation then probably not. There's not a lot of room for sophistic wiggle in what they've described I think |
| 20:11.12 | Jamash | I interpret section 5 as saying you can't even mention donations in the addon itself. |
| 20:11.16 | Dagmar | Jamash: Let's see, divulging trade secrets (if I can figure them out, are they all that secret?), um, computer tresspass, tortuous infringment, um... libel... a few others |
| 20:11.50 | Dagmar | Jamash: It's amazing how quickly people with money will go straight to lawyers or police when you tell them their website's a** is hanging out unsecured. |
| 20:12.03 | Jamash | oh yes, blame the messenger |
| 20:12.11 | Jamash | unfortunately typical |
| 20:12.16 | Dagmar | Jamash: It doesn't say you can't mention. It says no solicitiations and no requests. |
| 20:12.35 | Dagmar | There's a big difference between asking for something and explaining how something can be done when asked |
| 20:12.58 | Jamash | I suppose we'll have to wait for official clarification on that one |
| 20:13.26 | Jamash | I could see it going either way. |
| 20:13.40 | Codayus | I'd be REALLY careful making assumptions about that clause. There will be case history involving what exactly the solicitation language means, and it might not be what you'd guess. |
| 20:14.03 | Dagmar | Yeah I think they'll want to clarify that passage a bit more, personally |
| 20:14.27 | Jamash | I really don't understand what that clause is doing there in the first place. |
| 20:14.54 | Dagmar | Keeping nagware out |
| 20:15.12 | Jamash | ...why? |
| 20:15.25 | Codayus | I still just wish they'd modified the old malicious UI policy to add "anything that annoys the user, wastes server resources, or generates too many support requests to GMs", and called it a day... |
| 20:15.28 | Dagmar | Because there's a slippery slope there between nagware and requiring payment |
| 20:15.46 | Jamash | I don't see how that harms blizzard. |
| 20:15.54 | Xinhuan | what i reaaaaaally dont' understand is the clause about "unnecessary loading from the hard disk, and slow frame rates" |
| 20:16.01 | Jamash | Xinhuan: For other users |
| 20:16.03 | Xinhuan | the clause title is " Add-ons must not negatively impact World of Warcraft realms or other players." |
| 20:16.12 | Xinhuan | can you explain to me how "unnecessary loading from the hard disk, and slow frame rates" |
| 20:16.19 | Xinhuan | will affect OTHER users, or the wow realms? |
| 20:16.24 | Dagmar | Xinhuan: I think that one boils down to "Your addon must not suck horribly" |
| 20:16.32 | Xinhuan | it makes no link |
| 20:16.35 | Codayus | I don't even understand how you'd CAUSE unnecesary loading from the hdd. |
| 20:16.39 | Jamash | I believe (not 100% sure) that they mean causing other players to suffer slow frame rates or disk thrashing |
| 20:16.47 | Jamash | but it could use some clarification |
| 20:17.19 | Xinhuan | err the user's harddisk trashing, is not "other users" |
| 20:17.49 | Dagmar | Another point in favor of the theory that "some people in legal threw this together" |
| 20:18.03 | Jamash | I think (again, not sure) that they mean you may not cause thrashing on other players' computers |
| 20:18.26 | Xinhuan | "Add-ons must not negatively impact World of Warcraft realms or other players." - the first part is clear, its on server stability |
| 20:18.33 | Jamash | right |
| 20:18.42 | Xinhuan | the second part is as such, about other players! |
| 20:18.45 | Xinhuan | not the user of the addon |
| 20:18.49 | Jamash | right |
| 20:19.00 | Jamash | and then the third part is... unclear |
| 20:19.05 | Xinhuan | just seems so totally .. unrelated lol |
| 20:19.12 | Xinhuan | why there would be a low fps thing in it |
| 20:19.20 | Dagmar | Quartz. ;) |
| 20:19.40 | Jamash | yeah but quartz only affects the user, not other players |
| 20:19.45 | Xinhuan | even "4) Add-ons may not include advertisements." is so vague that it can cover addons that advertise in-game items/loot/goods |
| 20:19.54 | Dagmar | That and addons that screw client performance are likely to result in service requests about why someone's client is so godwaful slow |
| 20:19.54 | *** join/#wowuidev Matrix110 (i=Matrix11@217.87.220.219) |
| 20:19.57 | Xinhuan | /2 wts [runecloth] <--- addon banned!!! |
| 20:20.07 | Cidan | I'm going to make an addon |
| 20:20.19 | Dagmar | Xinhuan: That's a user typing, not an addon |
| 20:20.29 | Xinhuan | an addon can send messages to the trade channel |
| 20:20.36 | Xinhuan | once every 5 minutes, for eg, to sell runecloth |
| 20:20.41 | Dagmar | Xinhuan: I've seen ones tho that will say something ot trade every 60 seconds tho, which is just spamtacular |
| 20:20.55 | Cidan | I'm going to charge 1 dollar for a premium version of this addon |
| 20:21.03 | Cidan | It's going to be as obfuscated as I can make it |
| 20:21.11 | Cidan | It's going to spam yell as often as it can |
| 20:21.13 | Dagmar | Calling it "libGetMehSood" |
| 20:21.19 | Cidan | it's going to advertise Nike shoes |
| 20:21.25 | Cidan | It's going to ask for donations every 10 seconds |
| 20:21.47 | Dagmar | Cidan: Wouldn't it just be easier to make some mock-up screenshots to get the point across? |
| 20:21.48 | Jamash | I wonder if the EFF would be interested in this issue. |
| 20:21.52 | Cidan | It's going to have every single curse word in the books, in multiple languages. I'll even write an i8n system. |
| 20:22.12 | Cidan | No, the proof is in the pudding. To hell with it. |
| 20:22.15 | Dagmar | Jamash: I think we already covered how this is not a FoS issue |
| 20:22.21 | *** join/#wowuidev Funkeh`` (n=funk@host81-157-112-15.range81-157.btcentralplus.com) |
| 20:22.28 | Jamash | I don't think we did. |
| 20:22.36 | Jamash | oh that reminds me |
| 20:22.39 | Dagmar | Cidan: ur steeling me idea 4 a mod to abuse the user! |
| 20:22.57 | Cidan | Dagmar: NO U |
| 20:23.05 | Jamash | Dagmar: Duck Season! |
| 20:23.10 | *** join/#wowuidev DWSR (n=doingwha@24.114.252.240) |
| 20:23.12 | Dagmar | I'm just going to finish it and then ask Blizz for clarification actually |
| 20:23.35 | Dagmar | I don't see anyone getting too excited about a mod that says "U FAIL" on the screen (among other things) if you happen to fall to your death |
| 20:23.53 | Dagmar | I can't think of anything else that will help me learn to NOT use Disengage in inappropriate areas |
| 20:24.00 | zenzelezz | to use an expression my former guildies loved... "BLIZZARD IS TOTALLY RUINING MY GAME EXPERIENCE" |
| 20:24.08 | Dagmar | Clearly the repair bill isn't doing anything to discourage me |
| 20:24.22 | DWSR | zenzelezz: No kidding |
| 20:24.27 | *** join/#wowuidev Funkeh` (n=funk@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/Ace3/BigWigs/funkeh) |
| 20:24.41 | DWSR | Which authors have pulled their mods in protest of the new UI policy? |
| 20:24.51 | Dagmar | Outfitter being one |
| 20:24.53 | DWSR | I want to make a list so that I can see if I can replace them with something else. |
| 20:25.02 | DWSR | Dagmar: Yeah I know, and ItemRack blows. |
| 20:25.08 | Cidan | Outfitter, QH won't be pulled, but it's mothballed |
| 20:25.16 | DWSR | ? |
| 20:25.17 | Cidan | There is a facebook group we all signed up on |
| 20:25.25 | Jamash | those of us who have facebook accounts |
| 20:25.39 | DWSR | Cidan: Group's called? |
| 20:25.41 | cog|away | http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=58565586308 |
| 20:25.43 | Dagmar | DWSR: Well, 3.1 is getting similar functionality built right into it, but... I doubt it'll automatically put on my mexican bandito suit when I get on the motorcycle tho |
| 20:25.52 | Cidan | Support Addon Authors' Rights |
| 20:25.53 | jnwhiteh | I wasn't invited. |
| 20:26.00 | *** join/#wowuidev norova (n=norova@c-98-215-162-117.hsd1.il.comcast.net) |
| 20:26.10 | Jamash | kids today and their sociamal metworking and their baggy pants and their user interface addons |
| 20:26.23 | zenzelezz | I didn't sign any facebook group |
| 20:26.36 | Cidan | jnwhiteh: D: |
| 20:26.41 | Dagmar | Jamahs: Don't worry, Facebook's policy towards user-created modules will take most of those people out soon enough |
| 20:26.59 | lockeFan | It scares me when people decide to use the addon system to show Blizzard |
| 20:27.01 | Cidan | jnwhiteh: Sent |
| 20:27.02 | Dagmar | "We allow anything and then terminate accounts when malicious code is reported" |
| 20:27.10 | DWSR | ^ |
| 20:27.18 | Dagmar | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:27.24 | DWSR | Holy shit, there's at least 4 people of the female variety on the front page. |
| 20:27.26 | DWSR | That's a record. |
| 20:29.46 | Dagmar | Check their ages |
| 20:29.50 | *** join/#wowuidev Funkeh` (n=funk@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/Ace3/BigWigs/funkeh) |
| 20:32.54 | DWSR | ah...yeah |
| 20:32.57 | Xinhuan | well while i want to support addon author rights, i'm not sure i want my photos seen on facebook by everyone ;p |
| 20:33.04 | DWSR | wow, that UI thread is crazy. |
| 20:33.12 | DWSR | Xinhuan: Set it so that only your friends can see your photos. |
| 20:33.13 | DWSR | That's what I did. |
| 20:33.22 | DWSR | Anyone who's not on my friends list can't see shit. |
| 20:33.23 | Xinhuan | is that a profile setting? |
| 20:33.27 | Xinhuan | or a group setting |
| 20:33.40 | DWSR | profile |
| 20:33.49 | Xinhuan | oh so i can't control which groups can see photos? |
| 20:33.57 | Cidan | You know |
| 20:33.57 | Xinhuan | its either all or none? |
| 20:33.59 | *** join/#wowuidev smcn (i=smcn@75-164-165-184.ptld.qwest.net) |
| 20:34.07 | Cidan | Venificus made a really good point on the OpenRDX dev forums |
| 20:34.10 | Cidan | And I quote |
| 20:34.20 | Cidan | Ridiculous. If I were still modding, I would stop immediately. The risk that some code I write, which I might later use in another context, suddenly becomes owned by Blizzard and is no longer commercially viable is just too great. |
| 20:34.40 | Codayus | That's a very good point, really. |
| 20:34.49 | Dagmar | Except for the whole "owned by Blizzard" bit |
| 20:34.52 | Cidan | He has a point; what if I want to reuse a library I write for Lua that I included into a project? What if I wanted to charge for it outside of the context of World of Warcraft? |
| 20:34.58 | Cidan | Would I be allowed to? |
| 20:35.00 | Xinhuan | i don't think there is any risk of your code being owned by blizzar |
| 20:35.02 | Cidan | Even if it's the same code? |
| 20:35.04 | Dagmar | "No longer commercially viable" is at least reasonable tho |
| 20:35.13 | Cidan | Well, he wasn't speaking literally |
| 20:35.14 | ZorbaTHut | dagmar, my god, I need to go farm up the mexican bandito set now thanks to that mental image |
| 20:35.20 | ZorbaTHut | that is brilliant |
| 20:35.26 | Xinhuan | that would depend if you have the rights to use that library? |
| 20:35.34 | Jamash | yeah, the policy makes the (false) assumption that addons are inherently linked to wow |
| 20:35.37 | Dagmar | ZorbaTHut: Yeah, Runeblade of Demonstratable Tetanus is the closest I can get to a guitar case |
| 20:35.43 | Codayus | Xinhuan: The UI policy as written implies they have at least some ownership. One reason why clarification would be so nice. |
| 20:35.44 | Cidan | What if I make it, but it's used somewhere else? |
| 20:35.46 | Xinhuan | your specific terms of use of that library can make it such that |
| 20:35.47 | Dagmar | At least it's got good stats |
| 20:35.55 | Xinhuan | the library when used with wow is free |
| 20:35.59 | DWSR | I think what would really give Blizzard pause would be the authors of Ace to purposely break their libraries. |
| 20:36.00 | Xinhuan | but otherwise, not free |
| 20:36.04 | DWSR | That would break like 80% of addons |
| 20:36.07 | Cidan | Yes, but that's not outlined. |
| 20:36.11 | Cidan | That's assumed. |
| 20:36.33 | Cidan | And is that a risk you'd take? I can't speak for you, but programming == money, for me. |
| 20:36.43 | Jamash | I wouldn't be opposed to seeing all the major addon sites go dark for a week... say right at the release of 3.1 |
| 20:36.45 | lockeFan | Who would distribute purposefully broken addons other than Ace? |
| 20:36.54 | lockeFan | And why would they do that to the people who have supported them? |
| 20:36.55 | DWSR | lockeFan: No one, that's the point. |
| 20:36.56 | Cidan | lockeFan: Falling off |
| 20:36.59 | Cidan | lockeFan: my chair |
| 20:37.02 | Cidan | lockeFan: laughing |
| 20:37.16 | ScytheBlade1 | rofl |
| 20:37.19 | Dagmar | Jamash; That would be histrionics |
| 20:37.34 | lockeFan | xD |
| 20:37.44 | Jamash | Dagmar: Uh, no, that would be a "protest". |
| 20:37.45 | lockeFan | Sorry :P |
| 20:37.51 | DWSR | lockeFan: The whole point is that it's in protest. They want to really show Blizzard that there are better ways to annoy players than ads. |
| 20:37.56 | Xinhuan | LibStub is an addon that isn't wow specific |
| 20:38.16 | Xinhuan | it can be used in any non-wow lua project! |
| 20:38.22 | Codayus | Cidan: One of several reasons why Blizz needs to be really clear: Your addons are yours, but if you do X Y or Z we'll ban the addon from WoW, and if you try to circumvent it, we'll ban you, and maybe even sue you. I really do hope that's what their policy is intended to convey...although it certainly does not now. |
| 20:38.33 | lockeFan | Blizzard probably already knows that if you distribute something that doesn't work, it annoys players. If you're talking about breaking ace libraries, I don't see how you could do it retroactively |
| 20:38.42 | Cidan | I do hope they at least outline specific terms. |
| 20:38.47 | Cidan | I can tell you this |
| 20:39.04 | Cidan | Whoever drafted those terms? Whoever posted them or cleared them? |
| 20:39.12 | DWSR | lockeFan: My theory assumes that there's something that will break Ace in part in 3.1 |
| 20:39.27 | Cidan | Likely going to get at the very least, a reprimand |
| 20:39.36 | ScytheBlade1 | DWSR: no theory needed. It WILL happen currently. |
| 20:39.43 | mikma | wah wah bad blizzard wah wah |
| 20:39.46 | lockeFan | Signed, Cidan - Blizzard Supervisor and Corporate Consultant |
| 20:39.47 | *** join/#wowuidev Gryphen (n=gryphon@c-67-183-90-200.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) |
| 20:39.48 | Codayus | Heh, start charging for Ace libraries or even just offer for-pay support services at $200/hour or something. That should make all addons which use them illegal - no need to actually break anything. |
| 20:39.51 | lockeFan | Esq |
| 20:39.53 | lockeFan | Sorta |
| 20:40.02 | DWSR | Codayus: Yeah, good point. |
| 20:40.05 | lockeFan | Whatever, be upset about this if you want I guess |
| 20:40.14 | DWSR | lol |
| 20:40.24 | Cidan | hah |
| 20:40.28 | DWSR | I'm not upset. |
| 20:40.30 | Xinhuan | whats interesting is whether i can offer my services for real money to write addons for people |
| 20:40.32 | Cidan | 0x09 out of 0x0A |
| 20:40.34 | Cidan | I love that. |
| 20:40.43 | DWSR | I'm just saying, life will go on. |
| 20:40.44 | *** join/#wowuidev Wesley (n=Wesley@f164184.upc-f.chello.nl) |
| 20:40.50 | Xinhuan | that is, if you offered to pay me $50 to write an addon for you (which is then available for download free) |
| 20:40.52 | Xinhuan | is that legal? |
| 20:40.54 | Codayus | ...heh, if I start offering support services for Ace libraries, does that make any addon which uses them illegal even if none of my code is in them? :-) |
| 20:41.07 | DWSR | Xinhuan: yes. |
| 20:41.23 | Dagmar | Jamash: It would be histronics, not merely "a protest" if someone didn't try to discuss such a thing with Blizzard before taking the knuckleheaded approach of trying to force thousands of users to scream at Blizzard |
| 20:41.30 | DWSR | Blizzard says nothing about the development process, only about the distribution |
| 20:41.43 | ZorbaTHut | dagmar, I'm pretty sure discussing things with Blizzard is going to result in an epic stonewall |
| 20:41.47 | ZorbaTHut | possibly even a legendary stonewall |
| 20:41.49 | DWSR | ^ |
| 20:41.51 | Dagmar | ZorbaTHut: I think maybe not |
| 20:42.03 | ZorbaTHut | (artifact stonewall? heirloom stonewall?) |
| 20:42.04 | Codayus | Incidentally, I'm still pretty concerned over the service prohibition, which among other things should ban anyone from hosting eqdkp for money. :-) |
| 20:42.09 | *** part/#wowuidev Wesley (n=Wesley@f164184.upc-f.chello.nl) |
| 20:42.12 | Dagmar | It's a bit hard to say much of anything since less than one full business day has passed since that policy statement was published |
| 20:42.35 | DWSR | Dagmar: Predictions based on past events. |
| 20:42.37 | Jamash | it was very foolish of them to post it on a friday |
| 20:42.40 | DWSR | Yeah |
| 20:42.48 | DWSR | When everyone's got all weekend to vent. |
| 20:42.52 | Xinhuan | there is a bunch of addons that are external to paid-for-services |
| 20:43.41 | Dagmar | DWSR: That doesn't apply when you're talking about doing harm |
| 20:43.52 | Cidan | I'M A TROUBLEMAKER |
| 20:43.54 | Cidan | NEVER BEEN A FAKER |
| 20:43.56 | Dagmar | DWSR: It definitely doesn't excuse being unreasonably hostile |
| 20:43.58 | Cidan | DOIN THINGS MY OWN WAY |
| 20:44.00 | Cidan | AND NEVER GIVING UP |
| 20:44.01 | ScytheBlade1 | DOIN THINGS MY OWN WAY |
| 20:44.02 | Xinhuan | hmm should i bother with the fishing contest |
| 20:44.05 | ScytheBlade1 | haha |
| 20:44.06 | Xinhuan | in 15 min |
| 20:44.08 | Cidan | I love you, ScytheBlade1, xD |
| 20:44.09 | Jamash | fishing contest! |
| 20:44.10 | ScytheBlade1 | =] |
| 20:44.30 | ScytheBlade1 | Cidan: Miss Sweeney. Amazing, btw. |
| 20:44.39 | Dagmar | DWSR: You could make the argument that you should just kill any and all intruders onto your property because there's a past history of people being killed by trespassers |
| 20:44.53 | Jamash | Dagmar: That's what they do in Texas. |
| 20:44.57 | Cidan | Durr, :P |
| 20:44.59 | DWSR | Dagmar: You been to Texas? |
| 20:45.05 | ScytheBlade1 | lol |
| 20:45.05 | DWSR | ^5 Jamash |
| 20:45.09 | Dagmar | DWSR: Generally a judge will tell you you'll have some time in the pokey to consider whether or not you should have ignored that the person had just pulled into your driveway and was looking at a street map |
| 20:45.12 | Jamash | ^5 DWSR |
| 20:45.38 | DWSR | Dagmar: We're talking about the stonewall. Not the hostility of the userbase. |
| 20:45.49 | Dagmar | Jamash: Even in Texas people look to be sure there's an actual risk before they shoot someone |
| 20:45.49 | Cidan | Christ, I love Lua in C |
| 20:45.52 | Cidan | It's so nice. |
| 20:46.05 | DWSR | Trends based on paste events show that there is a good probabilty that Blizzard will brush off any attempts to conteact them about the UI policy. |
| 20:46.13 | Dagmar | DWSR: But there's been no stonewall yet, so a reaction to something that hasn't happened would be dimwitted to say the least |
| 20:46.17 | Codayus | From a customer relation POV, regardless of the actual policy they've handled this about as badly as possible. |
| 20:46.27 | DWSR | Codayus: Agreed. |
| 20:46.30 | Dagmar | Codayus: How so? |
| 20:46.32 | Jamash | They've already brushed off ZorbaTHut |
| 20:46.35 | Dagmar | All they did was publish on a Frida |
| 20:46.36 | Dagmar | y |
| 20:46.37 | DWSR | Dagmar: Of course, but that doesn't mean that there won't be one. |
| 20:46.40 | Codayus | Right way: Discuss upcoming changes in the forum, and ask for feedback. You can even IGNORE the feedback, but at least ask. |
| 20:46.53 | DWSR | ^ It's what they do to warlocks |
| 20:46.57 | DWSR | We're all still here. |
| 20:47.01 | ScytheBlade1 | lol |
| 20:47.02 | Codayus | Wrong way: Just post a policy somewhere and let people find out about it. Do not ask for feedback. |
| 20:47.05 | ScytheBlade1 | That is one thing I am glad of |
| 20:47.09 | ZorbaTHut | codayus, it could have been worse, they could have closed all the threads talking about it :) |
| 20:47.12 | Codayus | Really wrong way: As above, but do it on a Friday. :-) |
| 20:47.13 | Dagmar | You don't have to ask for feedback. |
| 20:47.16 | ScytheBlade1 | Their UI and class balancing people are almost entirely unrelated to one another |
| 20:47.23 | Jamash | http://pastebin.com/daadd2f1 |
| 20:47.24 | Dagmar | Bitching about stuff is probably what 90% of the forum content is. |
| 20:47.31 | Codayus | True, that'd be the really REALLY wrong way, especially if they banned people for making new threads. |
| 20:47.39 | Dagmar | You get it free, in great quantity, without ever having to ask for it |
| 20:48.19 | Dagmar | There's also a degree to which they have to be a *little* tight-lipped about it for the same reason tehy can't go rambling on about various exploits in the game |
| 20:49.00 | Dagmar | Codayus: I support banning users frequently and often WRT the forums |
| 20:49.02 | Codayus | The thing is, they could get away with a pretty draconian policy without much bitching if there was a dialogue and someone claimed to understand our concerns, but...sorry guys, there's legal issues we can't go into, and... *shrug* |
| 20:49.17 | Dagmar | Codayus: They've not done anything like that |
| 20:49.22 | Codayus | Exactly. |
| 20:49.38 | Dagmar | They didn't make any excuses, nor can it be said they're really ignoring people. |
| 20:49.45 | DWSR | Yes it can. |
| 20:49.58 | Dagmar | It's a bit unrealistic to expect the legal dept to be working through the weekend on it |
| 20:49.58 | DWSR | I haven't seen a blue post in that thread yet, mind you there's a log of pages. |
| 20:50.01 | ScytheBlade1 | A bit old but still good: http://www.osnews.com/story/19266/WTFs_m (also entirely offtopic) |
| 20:50.02 | Cidan | We've decided to suspent releases of OpenRDX until Blizzard clarifies their new UI policy. |
| 20:50.07 | *** join/#wowuidev Iriel (n=Iriel@adsl-71-158-244-138.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) |
| 20:50.07 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o Iriel] by ChanServ |
| 20:50.21 | DWSR | Dagmar: Blizzard is so rich they should have teams of devs, CMs, and everyone else working around the clock. |
| 20:50.26 | Codayus | Like I said, this has been handled incredibly poorly so far. |
| 20:50.27 | Dagmar | DWSR: Do blues have any _authority_ to answer those questions? |
| 20:50.45 | DWSR | Dagmar: Someone somewhere does. |
| 20:50.50 | Dagmar | DWSR: Yeah sure, you say that and it tells me you've never worked in an office with lawyers and/or accountants before |
| 20:51.53 | DWSR | Dagmar: You're right. |
| 20:51.53 | Dagmar | Engeineers work through weekends. Accountants and lawyers generally tell you "SOMEONE BETTER BE DEAD FOR YOU TO CALL AND INTERRUPT MY HANGOVER" |
| 20:51.53 | DWSR | Dagmar: I'm a science student, I know. |
| 20:51.53 | DWSR | I fucking hate artsies. |
| 20:51.53 | Dagmar | They're a lazy pack of sots, IMHO |
| 20:52.04 | DWSR | Which is why Blizzard should just hire more and shore up the laziness. |
| 20:52.05 | cbreak | I am an engineer and I would love to not work |
| 20:52.09 | cbreak | (as long as I still get paid) |
| 20:52.24 | ScytheBlade1 | Dagmar: the UI team is a bit different in terms of community interaction as compared to any other aspect of "blues" that the player base has access too. They may not be able to directly change the policy, but they have some degree of weight and tend to listen very closely to the community. |
| 20:52.55 | Dagmar | ScytheBlade1: So give them time to go push back against the people who probably wrote that policy, i.e., the legal dept |
| 20:53.14 | DWSR | Dagmar: You're making a guess. |
| 20:53.22 | Dagmar | I used to work for Deloitte & Touche. |
| 20:53.29 | Dagmar | It's not as much of a guess as I'd like it to be. |
| 20:53.34 | cbreak | I think the UI team keeps out of the forums |
| 20:53.36 | DWSR | I would say that the legal department put it into legalese, but it probably has its root somewhere else. |
| 20:53.36 | ScytheBlade1 | Dagmar: that is what I am hedging my bets on. We've seen three blues over time idle in here, joke around, and share in the random links. They're people who care too. |
| 20:53.58 | Dagmar | ScytheBlade1: That they've said nothing kinda indicates to me that they're of the opinion they're not allowed yet |
| 20:54.01 | ScytheBlade1 | (One of which has been in here for 90% of the time since this policy was announced) |
| 20:54.06 | Cidan | Blues == should not talk about it, period. EVER. |
| 20:54.12 | Cidan | In fact, leave the Blues in here alone. |
| 20:54.15 | Cidan | Don't even mention them |
| 20:54.16 | ScytheBlade1 | ^ |
| 20:54.18 | Cidan | Don't bring them up |
| 20:54.21 | Cidan | DO NOT BOTHER THEM |
| 20:54.26 | Dagmar | Wouldn't dream of bothering them |
| 20:54.27 | DWSR | NERDRAGE |
| 20:54.32 | Cidan | RRRRRAAAAGGGGGGEEEEEEE |
| 20:54.34 | Cidan | FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF |
| 20:54.35 | ScytheBlade1 | DWSR: justified rage |
| 20:54.38 | Cidan | etc. |
| 20:54.42 | DWSR | ScytheBlade1: Just the same |
| 20:54.56 | DWSR | I did not claim justification, only claimed existence. :P |
| 20:56.01 | Codayus | I suspect the policy was drafted by legal, posted (accidentally or not) without any technical review, and that right now the blues aren't allowed to say anything while Bliz formulates a response. The blues are, I suspect, as much cought in the gears of corporate beuracracy as anyone else. |
| 20:56.23 | Codayus | Hence why I think Bliz screwed up; they shouldn't have let themselves get that far behind the curve. :-) |
| 20:56.24 | ScytheBlade1 | I have absolutely no grounds to speak for them on any matter, but to put what I have observed simply, they are people who care about the community they helped build and sustain. |
| 20:56.41 | Cidan | With the exception of the devs, Blues are little more than CSR's, guys. I know it sounds harsh, but it's true. |
| 20:56.46 | ScytheBlade1 | Yup it is |
| 20:56.51 | Codayus | Even CSRs can care. |
| 20:57.23 | DWSR | ScytheBlade1: How very optimistic of you.\ |
| 20:57.29 | Iriel | Most do, otherwise they would have gone crazy |
| 20:57.43 | Codayus | But both devs and CSRs will face huge restrictions on what they can and cannot say, and commenting on legal stuff without a script vetted by legal is going to be on the "do not do this list". |
| 20:57.59 | Dagmar | I'd call it the "HAHAH you did WHAT?" list |
| 20:58.03 | ScytheBlade1 | DWSR: Call me naive, but that is what I believe on the matter. |
| 20:58.25 | DWSR | ScytheBlade1: I would say it's just optimistic. |
| 20:58.31 | DWSR | I think that some of the team cares more than others. |
| 20:58.37 | ScytheBlade1 | Meh |
| 20:58.42 | DWSR | And the entire dev team has their head up their ass. |
| 20:58.44 | ScytheBlade1 | That I totally know I'm not qualified to comment on :P |
| 20:58.51 | Iriel | DWSR: You're just an idiot. |
| 20:59.06 | DWSR | Troll me once, shame on me, troll me twice, shame on you. |
| 20:59.14 | DWSR | eh. |
| 20:59.15 | *** join/#wowuidev Gryphon (n=gryphon@c-67-183-90-200.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) |
| 20:59.16 | DWSR | Got it backwards. |
| 20:59.26 | Cidan | DWSR: How do you figure the entire dev team has their head up their ass? |
| 20:59.32 | Cidan | DWSR: That's a broad statement. |
| 20:59.41 | cog|away | jnwhiteh: sry... i went through my list person by person... must've missed you |
| 20:59.49 | DWSR | Cidan: Yeah, I suppose that it is. |
| 20:59.56 | Dagmar | I think he actually meant to post it to the forums, where it would cunningly blend in with all the other dumb things people post |
| 21:00.07 | Cidan | cog|away: I nabbed him, xD |
| 21:00.25 | DWSR | Cidan: But, from the changes that I've seen in 3.1 for Warlocks in particular, we've seen very little of what we were promised and they have entirely ignored our feedback in some cases. |
| 21:00.39 | Iriel | DWSR: I think you confuse 'developers' and 'designers', for a start |
| 21:00.51 | DWSR | Aye, that I did. |
| 21:01.19 | DWSR | It just makes me nerdrage whenever I think about how broken warlocks are still, after howmanyever patches we've had in WotLK. |
| 21:01.35 | Dagmar | Have you thought about xanax? |
| 21:01.49 | DWSR | Ques-que c'est? |
| 21:01.58 | Dagmar | Xanax. It's a mood stabilizer. |
| 21:02.12 | DWSR | Oh, lol past that. |
| 21:02.16 | Dagmar | Anything in a _game_ that incites someone to _rage_ isn't generally something you can fault a _game_ for |
| 21:02.19 | Dagmar | hehe |
| 21:02.22 | ScytheBlade1 | lol |
| 21:02.23 | *** join/#wowuidev NeoTron (i=neotron@pool-98-117-144-139.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net) |
| 21:02.23 | ScytheBlade1 | well put |
| 21:02.46 | cbreak | "I don't have enough rage!" |
| 21:02.47 | DWSR | I also don't take nerdrage seriously. |
| 21:02.50 | cbreak | "I can't do that yet" |
| 21:02.53 | Dagmar | Just, you know, be aware that when it wears off, life will suck for an hour or two |
| 21:02.57 | cbreak | "Need more Rage." |
| 21:03.03 | DWSR | cbreak: lol |
| 21:03.19 | DWSR | Dagmar: Life sucks on a regular basis. It really can't get much worse these days. |
| 21:03.27 | Dagmar | DWSR: Oh but it can |
| 21:03.45 | Dagmar | I let my GF talk me into taking one of her pills once when I'd gotten really pissed off about something |
| 21:03.50 | Iriel | DWSR: You could have no internet access, power, water, sanitation or clothes |
| 21:03.56 | Dagmar | Things went cool for about eight hours |
| 21:04.17 | Dagmar | Then the thing wore off and I actually had to bring my radio show to a halt and just go home |
| 21:04.18 | DWSR | Iriel: I'm not out of university yet. My parents love me and want the best for me. |
| 21:04.28 | DWSR | Short of cataclysm, things can't get much worse. |
| 21:04.51 | Dagmar | Had to apologize to the listeners and explain that right now, for no apparent reason, everything sucks balls and I couldn't mix records like that |
| 21:05.08 | Dagmar | DWSR: You could have to maintain a job |
| 21:05.17 | DWSR | Dagmar: Already there |
| 21:05.21 | Dagmar | You could lose access to all those nice coeds |
| 21:05.26 | DWSR | And trying to find a summer job in this economy? Forget it. |
| 21:05.31 | Dagmar | You could be like me and be contractually forbidden from touching them |
| 21:05.41 | DWSR | Dagmar: What nice co-eds? Oh, you mean the ones I don't have time for because I'm too busy studying all the time? |
| 21:05.56 | Dagmar | I used to make a really great Mr. Right Now and a Mr. "I Make Your Daddy Angry" |
| 21:06.00 | DWSR | That and I have a girlfriend. |
| 21:06.23 | DWSR | who lives 7 hours away |
| 21:06.26 | DWSR | but I still love her. |
| 21:06.47 | Dagmar | God I even used to have a T-shirt to that effect |
| 21:06.54 | DWSR | lol |
| 21:07.10 | Dagmar | I'm not kidding. It read "Mad at daddy? I can help." |
| 21:07.20 | DWSR | hahah |
| 21:09.31 | Aelobin | anyone insanely good at pattern matching? |
| 21:09.35 | DWSR | yes |
| 21:09.45 | DWSR | well,maybe not insanely, but I'm pretty good |
| 21:09.49 | Dagmar | Whose method? Regexp, globmatch? |
| 21:10.00 | Aelobin | whichever lua uses, i just call it patternmatching |
| 21:10.03 | Aelobin | or phail-regex |
| 21:10.05 | Aelobin | xD |
| 21:10.06 | DWSR | regex |
| 21:10.17 | Aelobin | nah it's not complete regex, otherwise my problem would be solved |
| 21:10.23 | End | lua calls it patterns |
| 21:10.25 | DWSR | oh, isn't it? |
| 21:10.50 | Dagmar | Lua apparently doesn't have _much_ in the way of them either... http://www.lua.org/pil/20.1.html |
| 21:11.12 | Aelobin | http://pastey.net/110733 |
| 21:11.16 | End | since it really isn't as powerful as what can be expressed with a regular expression (although most "regular expression" kits can express a lot more than just what is regular) |
| 21:11.20 | Aelobin | does fine until it reaches this line in the input file: |
| 21:11.23 | Aelobin | Epeen.Print("Invalid team size or team name"..". Team size must be \"2v2\", \"3v3\" or \"5v5\".","Error"); |
| 21:11.26 | jnwhiteh | Lua's patterns are extremely powerful and expressive |
| 21:11.35 | Cidan | Indeed |
| 21:11.38 | cog|away | ^ |
| 21:11.40 | Cidan | They can express love |
| 21:11.40 | Aelobin | it picks up the first string fine in that, but not the "Team size.... one |
| 21:11.42 | Cidan | Anger |
| 21:11.44 | Cidan | Hatred |
| 21:11.48 | Cidan | Compassion |
| 21:11.54 | jnwhiteh | and TRUTH! |
| 21:11.58 | *** join/#wowuidev Zootfizzle (n=Zootfizz@WoWUIDev/Blizz/Zooty-Zoot-Zoot) |
| 21:11.59 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o Zootfizzle] by ChanServ |
| 21:11.59 | DWSR | jnwhiteh: I still like my regex thanks |
| 21:11.59 | Cidan | xD |
| 21:12.21 | *** join/#wowuidev p3lim (n=p3lim@084202164112.customer.alfanett.no) |
| 21:12.27 | jnwhiteh | okay.. |
| 21:12.28 | jnwhiteh | the smallest regex implementation is larger than Lua |
| 21:12.33 | DWSR | uhuh\ |
| 21:12.33 | Cidan | jnwhiteh: Do you know of a quick way to push a struct to the lua stack as a table, without having to push members one by one? |
| 21:12.38 | DWSR | what's your point? |
| 21:12.38 | jnwhiteh | so.. enjoy that =) |
| 21:12.40 | Cidan | in C, sorry. |
| 21:12.49 | Dagmar | How is that a pattern matching problem? |
| 21:12.57 | jnwhiteh | regex is great for most things |
| 21:12.58 | jnwhiteh | but in Lua, you don't need em cause you can do it other ways |
| 21:13.16 | DWSR | aye, but I can wrap my head around POSIX regexp |
| 21:13.31 | DWSR | having to learn more pattern matching is redundant and somewhat irritating. |
| 21:13.41 | DWSR | besides, 4 or 5k lines of code isn't really all that big |
| 21:13.44 | Dagmar | DWSR: It's actually not that hard. What it *is* tho is hard to read after the fact |
| 21:14.15 | *** join/#wowuidev Gryphen (n=gryphon@c-67-183-90-200.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) |
| 21:14.15 | jnwhiteh | SWwhen that's larger than the entire language./. yes it is |
| 21:15.01 | Dagmar | Lua's pattern matching looks like it's pretty straightfoward to me. Not a whole lot of difference between it and POSIX for the bits they shre |
| 21:15.05 | Dagmar | s/shre/share/; |
| 21:15.14 | ZorbaTHut | cidan, I'm pretty sure that's what you have to do, but note that the lua stack is ridiculously efficient |
| 21:15.15 | krka | isnt lua patterns basically regexep without the alternation support? |
| 21:15.21 | Aelobin | i thought that |
| 21:15.24 | Cidan | ZorbaTHut: D: |
| 21:15.32 | Cidan | Do not want. |
| 21:15.49 | krka | also, isn't lpeg more powerful htan regexps? :) |
| 21:15.51 | Dagmar | krka: Yeah I don't see any way to say, refer to the second incident of a match in a string like \2 does in other mechanisms |
| 21:15.54 | Cidan | I guess I could macro it. |
| 21:15.57 | Xinhuan | krka.. almost ;p |
| 21:15.59 | Cidan | Should ease the pain. |
| 21:16.12 | End | krka: it can express non-regular languages, yes |
| 21:16.22 | End | but I don't think it can express all regular languages either |
| 21:16.27 | krka | Xinhuan: almost? |
| 21:16.40 | krka | i thought lpeg can match anything regexp can, but not vice versa |
| 21:16.41 | jnwhiteh | you can compile regexp to lpeg can't you... |
| 21:17.07 | Dagmar | Oh wait, they have "captures" in lua |
| 21:17.10 | ScytheBlade1 | mmm, food |
| 21:17.13 | Xinhuan | was referring to your earlier statement |
| 21:17.16 | ScytheBlade1 | Home made rolls happen to be amazing |
| 21:17.17 | Xinhuan | the one before lpeg |
| 21:17.24 | cbreak | {aabb, abab} |
| 21:17.27 | jnwhiteh | %2 will refer to the second capture in a match |
| 21:17.39 | jnwhiteh | but not within the same match.. within a gsub or the like |
| 21:17.55 | krka | Xinhuan: ah ok |
| 21:18.11 | Dagmar | Yeah I'm seeing that now |
| 21:18.40 | DWSR | As I've never looked at Lua much before. |
| 21:18.45 | DWSR | Can you not open a handle that's rw? |
| 21:19.29 | Dagmar | In lua probably, but ah don't think you're allowed to do that under WoW's implementatioon of it |
| 21:19.33 | jnwhiteh | !aip io.open |
| 21:19.42 | jnwhiteh | !api io.open |
| 21:19.42 | lua_bot | Documentation for 'io.open' can be found at http://www.lua.org/manual/5.1/manual.html#pdf-io.open |
| 21:20.05 | Etanol | !api preg_match() |
| 21:20.06 | lua_bot | Could not find a match for 'preg_match()'. |
| 21:20.07 | Etanol | damn |
| 21:20.19 | nevcairiel | this is not php |
| 21:20.20 | nevcairiel | =P |
| 21:20.22 | Etanol | ;) |
| 21:20.23 | End | ^ |
| 21:20.24 | Etanol | wish it was |
| 21:20.49 | Etanol | at least php has a good documentation |
| 21:20.55 | Etanol | the lua documentation is rubbish |
| 21:21.13 | nevcairiel | Yeah .. sure .. |
| 21:21.21 | jnwhiteh | .. |
| 21:21.25 | End | the lua documentation is fine |
| 21:21.28 | jnwhiteh | wow you new people are bitchy |
| 21:21.30 | DWSR | It's alright. |
| 21:21.39 | End | unless you are talking about WoW's API |
| 21:21.44 | jnwhiteh | the Lua refman is completely clear, and very concise/ |
| 21:21.46 | End | but that's a different story |
| 21:21.55 | cog|away | anyone want to make a graphic for the facebook group? :P |
| 21:21.59 | End | and there's a lot of community work on that |
| 21:22.16 | ScytheBlade1 | cog|away: easy. Centered text, "RRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAA------" |
| 21:22.27 | Xinhuan | just take a picture of a cogwheel, cogwheel :) |
| 21:22.27 | nevcairiel | The Lua API itself is documented pretty good. PiL is a good book, and the reference is good too |
| 21:22.32 | ScytheBlade1 | (... ge) |
| 21:22.41 | cog|away | Xinhuan: no, that's my profile pic :P |
| 21:22.48 | krka | the lua documentation, both pil and ref is one of the best i've read |
| 21:22.50 | Dagmar | cog|away: You can't use http://cache.kotaku.com/images/2006/06/Baby%20for%20the%20horde.jpg ? |
| 21:22.53 | krka | i think the java api docs are better |
| 21:22.56 | Xinhuan | then put 5 cogwheels together |
| 21:23.09 | krka | the ref manual could be more verbose in some places |
| 21:23.13 | Vilkkuu | anyone know of a damage meter which lets you do single target calculations, as in it will only show damage done to one hostile target, or certain ones (say only record data for damage done on the drakes in os) |
| 21:23.13 | krka | but it's still awesome |
| 21:23.26 | krka | i however also think that php.net has good documentation |
| 21:23.34 | jnwhiteh | they certainly do |
| 21:23.34 | Xinhuan | Vilkkuu: Recount |
| 21:23.39 | Dagmar | Vilkkuu: Dig into recount a little more closely, it already does that |
| 21:23.40 | jnwhiteh | and the user comments is the best part of them at times =) |
| 21:23.45 | Vilkkuu | dang |
| 21:23.47 | nevcairiel | indeed |
| 21:23.58 | krka | in fact, the php docs is much much better than the language itself |
| 21:24.00 | cog|away | the graphic should make fair use of blizzard copyrighted art imo :P |
| 21:24.03 | jnwhiteh | but that doesn't make Lua's documentation 'suck' |
| 21:24.06 | Dagmar | Vilkkuu: Right and shift click on bits of Recount and it'll let you do more interesting things with it's data |
| 21:24.07 | nevcairiel | krka: sad truth |
| 21:24.10 | End | krka: haha, I think can agree with that :P |
| 21:24.12 | Xinhuan | you will need to enable recount to record damage taken statistics on Bosses and/or mobs |
| 21:24.20 | DWSR | yeah, you will |
| 21:24.31 | nevcairiel | I've really started to hate the $ in front of vars in php |
| 21:24.31 | Xinhuan | then you can go to the Damage Taken view, and enable the option to show damage taken for "bosses" |
| 21:24.33 | DWSR | Also try playing with the record time option |
| 21:24.34 | nevcairiel | it drives me nuts |
| 21:24.43 | DWSR | nevcairiel: Why? |
| 21:24.43 | Xinhuan | then click on the boss itself to get the drill down |
| 21:24.51 | nevcairiel | DWSR: why not? |
| 21:24.55 | DWSR | Why? |
| 21:25.00 | Aelobin | seems i answered my own pattern matching problem whilst this discussion went on :P |
| 21:25.02 | nevcairiel | Because it annoys me |
| 21:25.13 | DWSR | Different strokes for different folks |
| 21:25.17 | DWSR | Aelobin: Grats. :D |
| 21:25.22 | DWSR | Cookie? |
| 21:25.26 | Cidan | Lua is the most horrible language ever written, period. |
| 21:25.27 | Aelobin | if you got some =o |
| 21:25.27 | Xinhuan | basically, Recount can do it - but you have to enable a bunch of stuff |
| 21:25.34 | nevcairiel | And i think its totally unnecessry to mark variables as such |
| 21:25.36 | Xinhuan | and it'll take more memory/cpu :) |
| 21:25.40 | nevcairiel | totally disrupts my reading flow, imho |
| 21:25.46 | foxlit | DWSR: because it's annoying to reach for SHIFT+4 every time you want to use a variable. |
| 21:25.51 | DWSR | Meh, I like it as a clear indication of what's a variable. |
| 21:25.51 | krka | nice trolling there Cidan |
| 21:25.54 | nevcairiel | that too |
| 21:25.56 | krka | a bit too obvious though |
| 21:25.57 | Cidan | krka: Thanks, xD |
| 21:25.57 | DWSR | foxlit: dvorak. |
| 21:26.07 | Cidan | Well, let's try this one, it's one of my favorites |
| 21:26.07 | Vilkkuu | umm, either I just don't get it or I explained it wrong - I don't mean the data for different fights, I want to only record specific data in one fight |
| 21:26.08 | krka | would have worked better if you spelled it LUA |
| 21:26.10 | cbreak | Cidan: you should take a look at eiffel, oberon and windows VBS |
| 21:26.11 | nevcairiel | DWSR: yeah, sure, i change my keyboard layout to code php faster |
| 21:26.14 | Cidan | Everyone should use Lua for addons |
| 21:26.18 | Cidan | Do not use XML |
| 21:26.21 | Xinhuan | i get you Vilkkuu |
| 21:26.21 | Cidan | ever, for any reason. |
| 21:26.23 | Aelobin | would table.sort(tbl, return random(0,1) == 1) work? |
| 21:26.27 | Aelobin | for randomly sorting a table |
| 21:26.28 | ScytheBlade1 | Cidan: XML for life |
| 21:26.29 | Xinhuan | you want to see damage breakdown on Shadron, for eg |
| 21:26.30 | DWSR | Cidan: XML's a terrible language. :( |
| 21:26.35 | krka | i liked the old forum troll of wanting VB for addons instead of lua |
| 21:26.36 | Vilkkuu | then I don't find the option |
| 21:26.37 | krka | that was funny |
| 21:26.37 | Xinhuan | who did damage to him |
| 21:26.41 | Vilkkuu | but busy now killing it |
| 21:26.44 | Xinhuan | i'll repeat the steps |
| 21:26.47 | Xinhuan | go to options, |
| 21:26.51 | Cidan | k so |
| 21:26.59 | Cidan | I am not looking forward to writing this maccroo. |
| 21:27.03 | Xinhuan | enable DATA RECORDING column for the BOSSES row |
| 21:27.03 | End | Aelobin: |
| 21:27.04 | Cidan | ffff. |
| 21:27.07 | End | bah |
| 21:27.12 | End | Aelobin: I'd say probably not |
| 21:27.14 | Xinhuan | then enable DATA SHOWING column for the BOSSES row |
| 21:27.19 | End | (even if the syntax was right) |
| 21:27.29 | Dagmar | "Click on the gear icon and then configure recount to record whhat you care about" |
| 21:27.37 | Xinhuan | then go to DAMAGE TAKEN view, you will see damage taken of all players + bosses |
| 21:27.50 | Aelobin | End: hmmm ill correct my syntax and try ingame |
| 21:27.51 | DWSR | Xinhuan has the answer! |
| 21:27.52 | Xinhuan | left click directly on any boss or player to see the damage taken breakdown |
| 21:28.02 | Xinhuan | of any player, or boss |
| 21:28.11 | DWSR | btw, whoever posted that baby for the horde pic, awesome :D |
| 21:28.58 | DWSR | !weather |
| 21:28.58 | Xinhuan | is that clear Vilkkuu? |
| 21:29.13 | Aelobin | dam |
| 21:29.18 | nevcairiel | ~weather edhi |
| 21:29.27 | DWSR | ~weather Ottawa, Canada |
| 21:29.29 | Aelobin | End: invalid order sorting function |
| 21:29.49 | Vilkkuu | Xinhuan, got it thanks |
| 21:30.00 | Vilkkuu | (love your mods </fanboy>) |
| 21:30.03 | End | Aelobin: yeah, that's what I expected |
| 21:30.04 | Xinhuan | lol |
| 21:30.05 | Aelobin | End: =o it works if i pass in a,b like i'm meant to |
| 21:30.08 | Aelobin | :D |
| 21:30.22 | *** join/#wowuidev Ackis (n=asdf@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/ARL/Troll/Ackis) |
| 21:30.50 | End | Sure you aren't getting lucky? |
| 21:30.56 | DWSR | ~weather CYOW |
| 21:31.00 | Vilkkuu | another related question, do I have to record deaths for bosses to make it segment correctly? |
| 21:31.00 | End | a,b existing in the function shouldn't matter |
| 21:31.10 | Aelobin | End: i'm printing a concat of the table |
| 21:31.16 | Xinhuan | no Vilkkuu |
| 21:31.17 | DWSR | Oh, it's cold out. |
| 21:31.18 | DWSR | Damnit. |
| 21:31.22 | Aelobin | i placed string values of each index at the start and then random sort it |
| 21:31.27 | Xinhuan | boss segments are based on boss GUIDs |
| 21:31.45 | Xinhuan | segments are based on having your entire raid not in combat for > 5 seconds |
| 21:32.06 | *** join/#wowuidev Wimpsy` (n=Wimp_@78-70-121-17-no170.tbcn.telia.com) |
| 21:32.23 | Aelobin | End: came up with an error every couple of macro clicks so i made it: |
| 21:32.26 | Xinhuan | recording deaths will record the last 15 or so combat log events of said stuff |
| 21:32.32 | Aelobin | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:32.49 | Xinhuan | that is, if you record deaths of players, then every player death will have a combat log record of the last 15 things that happened to that player (or boss) |
| 21:33.04 | Aelobin | still occasionally throws an error |
| 21:33.13 | Xinhuan | it is VERY memory intensive, because it means recount has to actively record the last 15 events all the time, for all players (and bosses if enabled) |
| 21:33.16 | End | yeah, you're getting lucky :P |
| 21:33.23 | Aelobin | lucky in what way? |
| 21:33.25 | foxlit | lua> while 1 do local tbl1 = {"1","2","3","4","5"}; table.sort(tbl1,function(a,b) return (random(0,1) == 1)or false end); end |
| 21:33.25 | lua_bot | foxlit: luabot:1: attempt to call global 'random' (a nil value) |
| 21:33.27 | End | I'd expect it to error a lot more with a bigger data set |
| 21:33.30 | Iriel | Aelobin: That sort function is invalid |
| 21:33.33 | foxlit | lua> while 1 do local tbl1 = {"1","2","3","4","5"}; table.sort(tbl1,function(a,b) return (math.random(0,1) == 1)or false end); end |
| 21:33.33 | lua_bot | foxlit: luabot:1: invalid order function for sorting |
| 21:33.42 | Xinhuan | you can see the events leading up to the deaths by going to the DEATH COUNT view |
| 21:33.45 | Iriel | Aelobin: lua is allowed to fail as much as it wants to if you pass it crap |
| 21:33.45 | Xinhuan | and driling down |
| 21:33.46 | foxlit | Because it's inconsistent for two elements. |
| 21:33.51 | End | ^ |
| 21:33.58 | Aelobin | hmmm |
| 21:34.01 | Aelobin | how about |
| 21:34.05 | Iriel | if you want a random order, fill a 2nd table with random numbers |
| 21:34.10 | Aelobin | yeh |
| 21:34.12 | Iriel | and sort the first by the values in the second |
| 21:34.13 | Aelobin | i was about to say that :P |
| 21:34.25 | Iriel | though if you were going to do that |
| 21:34.29 | foxlit | i.e. if you ask it a > b, and it says yes, and then ask b > c, and it says yes, it whines when it asks c > a, and you say yes. |
| 21:34.33 | Iriel | it's much more efficient to just do random swaps |
| 21:34.48 | Aelobin | hmm in what way? |
| 21:34.49 | Fisker- | "If you have a cooldown you can blow once every three minutes, then that cooldown counts for a lot more on a three minute fight than a five minute fight" |
| 21:34.49 | Iriel | i.e. for each element pick a random element further into the array (possibly itself) to swap it with |
| 21:34.50 | Fisker- | bah |
| 21:34.52 | Fisker- | i was about to flame it |
| 21:35.00 | Fisker- | but then i saw he wrote 3 minutes :( |
| 21:35.24 | Fisker- | oh |
| 21:35.27 | Fisker- | he already got flamed for it |
| 21:35.28 | Fisker- | :( |
| 21:35.39 | Iriel | flame the flamer |
| 21:35.47 | Iriel | nobody knows you were about to repeat his mistake but you |
| 21:35.47 | Xinhuan | what are you trying to do Aelobin |
| 21:35.48 | Iriel | and us |
| 21:35.48 | End | so, flame Fisker-? |
| 21:35.55 | Xinhuan | are you just trying to random shuffle numbers? |
| 21:35.59 | End | oh wait, Fisker- is the troll |
| 21:36.01 | End | right right |
| 21:36.17 | Aelobin | Xinhuan: trying to order a table randomly |
| 21:36.21 | Xinhuan | easy |
| 21:36.26 | Fisker- | trolls need sleep too |
| 21:36.35 | nevcairiel | fail troll is fail |
| 21:37.27 | *** join/#wowuidev KarlThePagan (n=karl@66.225.8.145) |
| 21:37.43 | Xinhuan | Aelobin: for i = N, 1 do local a = random(i); t[a], t[i] = t[i], t[a]; end |
| 21:37.52 | Xinhuan | Aelobin: for i = N, 1, -1 do local a = random(i); t[a], t[i] = t[i], t[a]; end |
| 21:37.57 | Xinhuan | do it backwards |
| 21:38.02 | Wimpsy` | :( |
| 21:38.27 | Xinhuan | essentially, the algoritm just says, first, select a random item between 1-N. move this item to t[N] |
| 21:38.38 | Xinhuan | then loop, selecta random item netween 1-(N-1), move this item to t[N-1] |
| 21:38.39 | Xinhuan | repeat |
| 21:38.40 | Etanol | lua> for i = N, 1, -1 do local a = random(i); t[a], t[i] = t[i], t[a]; end |
| 21:38.40 | lua_bot | Etanol: luabot:1: 'for' initial value must be a number |
| 21:38.52 | Etanol | guess you code is trash, xin |
| 21:38.55 | Etanol | ;> |
| 21:39.03 | Aelobin | Xinhuan: so i'd need to make an output table so stop it overwriting values already there? |
| 21:39.09 | Xinhuan | no |
| 21:39.13 | Xinhuan | it swaps in place |
| 21:39.33 | Aelobin | sorry but this is confusing me xD |
| 21:40.00 | Xinhuan | read my algorithm again |
| 21:40.34 | Aelobin | yeh i know :P |
| 21:40.37 | Aelobin | Aelobin>sorry but this is confusing me |
| 21:40.43 | Xinhuan | for i = N, 1, -1 do local a = random(i); t[a], t[i] = t[i], t[a]; end |
| 21:40.44 | Aelobin | oooh wait |
| 21:40.46 | Xinhuan | its very very simple |
| 21:40.46 | Aelobin | yeh |
| 21:40.57 | Aelobin | i was trying to figure out how the commas came into ti |
| 21:41.01 | Xinhuan | the last few items in the table are randomized |
| 21:41.03 | Aelobin | then realised it's just a simple declaration |
| 21:41.12 | Xinhuan | you are selecting items in the first part of the array |
| 21:41.15 | Xinhuan | to move to the last part |
| 21:41.25 | Xinhuan | works in any language |
| 21:41.36 | Xinhuan | O(N) complexity |
| 21:41.40 | Xinhuan | to shuffle items |
| 21:41.44 | Aelobin | :) |
| 21:41.48 | Aelobin | ty i understand it now |
| 21:43.04 | Xinhuan | lua> local t = {1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7}; for i = 7, 1, -1 do local a = random(i); t[a], t[i] = t[i], t[a]; end for i = 1, 7 do print(t[i]) end |
| 21:43.05 | lua_bot | Xinhuan: luabot:1: attempt to call global 'random' (a nil value) |
| 21:43.08 | Xinhuan | aww |
| 21:43.14 | Xinhuan | lua> local t = {1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7}; for i = 7, 1, -1 do local a = math.random(i); t[a], t[i] = t[i], t[a]; end for i = 1, 7 do print(t[i]) end |
| 21:43.14 | lua_bot | Xinhuan: 7, 6, 2, 4, 5, 3, 1 |
| 21:43.35 | *** join/#wowuidev Funkeh`` (n=funk@host86-151-166-131.range86-151.btcentralplus.com) |
| 21:43.37 | Xinhuan | lua> local t = {1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7}; for i = 7, 1, -1 do local a = math.random(i); t[a], t[i] = t[i], t[a]; end for i = 1, 7 do print(t[i]) end |
| 21:43.37 | lua_bot | Xinhuan: 1, 7, 5, 4, 2, 3, 6 |
| 21:44.01 | Aelobin | cool |
| 21:44.28 | Aelobin | lua> print("aelo ftw") |
| 21:44.28 | lua_bot | Aelobin: aelo ftw |
| 21:44.30 | Aelobin | :P |
| 21:44.35 | Aelobin | never used lua_bot before lol |
| 21:44.38 | Xinhuan | usually, there's always a very simple way to do things ;p |
| 21:44.42 | Wimpsy` | i want my own personal lua_bot |
| 21:44.44 | Wimpsy` | to cuddle with |
| 21:44.48 | Aelobin | :P |
| 21:45.04 | Xinhuan | code optimization is very important to me |
| 21:45.08 | Wimpsy` | lua> print("is the smexiest Wimp out there!" |
| 21:45.09 | lua_bot | Wimpsy`: luabot:1: ')' expected near '<eof>' |
| 21:45.11 | Wimpsy` | fail |
| 21:45.13 | Wimpsy` | lua> print("is the smexiest Wimp out there!") |
| 21:45.14 | lua_bot | Wimpsy`: is the smexiest Wimp out there! |
| 21:45.16 | Wimpsy` | there it is :D |
| 21:45.41 | Xinhuan | algorithmic optimization is a much bigger topic |
| 21:45.58 | Xinhuan | i wish unis spend like 2 extra years on it |
| 21:46.10 | Xinhuan | so we don't have so many trash programmers |
| 21:46.14 | jnwhiteh | plaese don't use lua_Bot in here unless you're illustrating something.. use PMs to her, or use the channel #luabot |
| 21:46.28 | Wimpsy` | sorry jnwhiteh |
| 21:46.31 | Aelobin | Xinhuan: wanna try optimise some pattern matching? lolol |
| 21:46.37 | Xinhuan | lol |
| 21:46.40 | Xinhuan | could try |
| 21:47.51 | Aelobin | Xinhuan: http://pastey.net/110740 |
| 21:48.13 | Wimpsy` | Epeen is unobfuscated! |
| 21:48.18 | Wimpsy` | All loot the code! |
| 21:48.27 | Aelobin | that's not the epeen code rofl |
| 21:48.32 | Aelobin | that's the obfuscator code ;) |
| 21:48.35 | Wimpsy` | damn |
| 21:48.39 | Aelobin | and even with that code |
| 21:48.42 | Aelobin | you can't do anything useful :P |
| 21:48.45 | Xinhuan | errr |
| 21:48.48 | Wimpsy` | oh i'll do something useful |
| 21:48.51 | Xinhuan | can you explain what you are doing |
| 21:49.03 | Aelobin | i'm finding every string between " and " in a file |
| 21:49.07 | Aelobin | it doesnt count \" |
| 21:49.10 | Aelobin | and it doesnt count "" |
| 21:49.16 | Xinhuan | also i suspect you want to use ipairs(), not pairs() |
| 21:49.21 | Aelobin | then putting it into a table, and replacing it on eacy line with "_" |
| 21:49.25 | Xinhuan | but it probably doesn't matter |
| 21:49.30 | Aelobin | hmm i've never used ipairs |
| 21:49.34 | Xinhuan | since you're storingit back to the same t[k] index |
| 21:50.04 | Xinhuan | for k = 1, #t do local v = t[k] <-- this is the fastest bte |
| 21:50.06 | Xinhuan | btw |
| 21:50.15 | Xinhuan | compared to using pairs() or ipairs() |
| 21:50.24 | Xinhuan | because those 2 iterators are function calls on every loop |
| 21:50.36 | DWSR | wow. |
| 21:50.45 | Aelobin | hmm i didn't realise that :P |
| 21:50.45 | DWSR | Someone came to my door and asked if I had any liquor bottles. |
| 21:50.49 | nevcairiel | micro optimization ftl |
| 21:50.53 | DWSR | I told them I don't drink and she actually believed me. |
| 21:51.01 | Xinhuan | what if his file has 100000 lines nev :P |
| 21:51.01 | Aelobin | lol |
| 21:51.09 | nevcairiel | Xinhuan: so? |
| 21:51.12 | Aelobin | 1800 atm ;) |
| 21:51.13 | Xinhuan | not so minor anymore hehe |
| 21:51.15 | Aelobin | lol |
| 21:51.15 | nevcairiel | I doubt that code is time critical |
| 21:51.22 | Xinhuan | yeah but still |
| 21:51.29 | Aelobin | it's not run in-game, it's run once on a .lua file |
| 21:51.37 | Xinhuan | its good programming practice and doesn't make the code unreadable |
| 21:51.42 | Aelobin | ^^ |
| 21:52.01 | Aelobin | Xinhuan: but i gotta use pairs for string indexed tables tho :P |
| 21:52.08 | Xinhuan | ya |
| 21:52.26 | Xinhuan | there's almost no reason to use ipairs() though, other than for legibility |
| 21:52.31 | foxlit | Aelobin: But does it handle "awesome \\" .. "strings"? |
| 21:52.36 | Xinhuan | its just that much slower |
| 21:52.41 | Aelobin | foxlit: yup |
| 21:52.54 | Xinhuan | anyway, i can't do your regex shit unless you say what the code is meant to do |
| 21:52.55 | Aelobin | i think it does if i understand what you mean |
| 21:52.58 | foxlit | And "Awesomer \\\" strings"? |
| 21:53.12 | foxlit | And "Awesomes \\\\" .. "strings"? |
| 21:53.13 | Aelobin | foxlit: i think so :P |
| 21:53.19 | Aelobin | leave me alone :'( |
| 21:53.21 | Aelobin | lol |
| 21:53.24 | nevcairiel | lol |
| 21:53.41 | Aelobin | Xinhuan: commented every line to the best way i can describe it :P |
| 21:53.59 | Xinhuan | can you give an example INPUT line and an expected OUTPUT line |
| 21:54.00 | Aelobin | foxlit: i slaved hours over working out that pattern matching sequence :P |
| 21:54.10 | Aelobin | Xinhuan: sure |
| 21:54.21 | Xinhuan | because the comments are cryptic |
| 21:54.33 | Xinhuan | it doesn't explain what the overall purpose of the loop does |
| 21:54.40 | Aelobin | input> Epeen.Player_Name = UnitName("PLAYER"); |
| 21:54.45 | Aelobin | output> Epeen.Player_Name = UnitName(_); |
| 21:55.01 | Xinhuan | when you write comments, you should be telling us what the code is meant to do, not what the code is doing |
| 21:55.02 | Aelobin | it has no real use yet, it's just to work out how to take out all the strings into a table first |
| 21:55.27 | Aelobin | so that when removing white space etc, it won't interefere with intended whitespace in strings |
| 21:55.28 | Xinhuan | that is, document the purpose - not what the code does literally |
| 21:56.19 | Shefki | Better explanation is comments say *WHY* the code is doing what it is doing. |
| 21:56.24 | Shefki | Why it is written that way. |
| 21:56.34 | Aelobin | ^_^ |
| 21:56.36 | *** join/#wowuidev Lukian (i=lukian@203.171.70.21.static.rev.aanet.com.au) |
| 21:56.38 | foxlit | (your find-end-of-string logic is flawed, but that's more of an edge case than a problem) |
| 21:56.39 | Aelobin | i'll bare all this in mind next time |
| 21:56.49 | Aelobin | i only comment quickly if i need help, i hardly ever comment whilst coding :P |
| 21:56.56 | foxlit | bare bears bear berries. |
| 21:56.59 | Aelobin | foxlit: wut? |
| 21:57.10 | Aelobin | how's it flawed |
| 21:57.13 | Shefki | I typically comment after I'm done but before I commit something. |
| 21:57.23 | Shefki | Comments are as much for myself as anyone else. |
| 21:57.23 | Tekkub | Woe is Meat - Wake the Bear ... best artist/album title evar |
| 21:57.32 | Shefki | It's helpful to remind yourself wtf you did. |
| 21:57.56 | DWSR | I comment if what I'm writing is over a screenful |
| 21:58.00 | DWSR | anything less I don't bother |
| 21:58.46 | DWSR | Except for maybe something at the top to tell me what the program does. I find that anything short I can either a) read well because it's simple or b) rewrite very quickly. |
| 21:58.47 | foxlit | Aelobin: it's flawed in that it won't be able to handle an arbitrary amount of escaped slashes before an (un)escaped quote. |
| 21:59.02 | Aelobin | foxlit: it already does ;) |
| 21:59.04 | Aelobin | i tested it |
| 21:59.11 | Xinhuan | so wait, can you try to re-explain what the code does? |
| 21:59.13 | DWSR | foxlit: But isn't \\ a literal slash? |
| 21:59.23 | foxlit | DWSR: it is. |
| 21:59.29 | DWSR | So for every even number of slashes you're not actually escaping it? |
| 21:59.32 | Xinhuan | why is "PLAYER" being replaced to _ |
| 21:59.35 | Aelobin | Xinhuan: replaces all strings with _ and places them in a table |
| 21:59.47 | foxlit | DWSR: and every odd number of slashes, you are. |
| 21:59.53 | DWSR | Meh. |
| 21:59.55 | Aelobin | this is only the basis of what i'm gonna start coding, but it's the most important part |
| 22:00.08 | DWSR | Like you said, that's a bit of an edge case. |
| 22:00.21 | DWSR | It's unlikely that someone will actually try to put in a bunch of slashes for fun |
| 22:00.25 | Xinhuan | why can't you combine both parts |
| 22:00.27 | Xinhuan | together |
| 22:00.39 | Xinhuan | instead of searching for the open " and close " separately |
| 22:00.47 | Aelobin | foxlit: how do you propose i get round that then? |
| 22:01.12 | DWSR | It would take a bit more legwork, I should think. |
| 22:01.19 | DWSR | Have to check how many \ in your code or something. |
| 22:01.23 | DWSR | err. |
| 22:01.26 | DWSR | s/code/match/ |
| 22:01.29 | Xinhuan | and instead of looping like you did, you can even use :gmatch() as an iterator |
| 22:01.36 | Xinhuan | and you can pass it a function |
| 22:01.41 | Xinhuan | to do the _ sub |
| 22:01.51 | DWSR | When's Bioshock 2 come out? |
| 22:02.06 | Aelobin | there's a number 2 soon? =o |
| 22:02.08 | DWSR | yes. |
| 22:02.08 | Xinhuan | gmatch() > your multiple :find() and :gsub() loops |
| 22:02.16 | DWSR | Already a teaser out |
| 22:02.22 | DWSR | I'm really waiting for Portal 2. |
| 22:02.29 | Aelobin | Xinhuan: it's essential to find the start and end of a string separately |
| 22:02.31 | mikma | don't taze me bro |
| 22:02.36 | Aelobin | i had LOADS of errors trying to do it in one match |
| 22:02.44 | Aelobin | errors with \ "" etc |
| 22:03.05 | Xinhuan | you already have a pattern for the start, and a pattern for the end |
| 22:03.09 | Aelobin | using the pos1 and then finding the string after is the best way imo |
| 22:03.14 | foxlit | Aelobin: in the long term, using a proper parser/tokenizer |
| 22:03.14 | Aelobin | Xinhuan: yes but |
| 22:03.31 | Xinhuan | combine both with a .- in between you have it |
| 22:03.33 | foxlit | In the short term, you can capture any preceding slashes before a quote, and count them. |
| 22:03.35 | Aelobin | the start has a character that can't be after the " |
| 22:03.41 | Aelobin | and the end has one which can't be before the " |
| 22:03.45 | Aelobin | if it's a 1 letter string |
| 22:03.50 | Aelobin | "a" then it'll mess up |
| 22:04.00 | Aelobin | as in a single match() it'll be wanting it to have 2 chars |
| 22:04.04 | Xinhuan | then you make a separate case for it, and find all "" emptystrings first |
| 22:04.06 | foxlit | Or if you wanted to do what Xin wants to do, you could start HTML-style entity encoding |
| 22:04.17 | Aelobin | Xinhuan: and do what with them? |
| 22:04.24 | Xinhuan | i mean find all 1 letter strings |
| 22:04.42 | Aelobin | what if it finds "\" |
| 22:04.47 | DWSR | Aelobin: Bioshock 2 has your playing as a Big Daddy. |
| 22:04.54 | Xinhuan | str:gmatch('\".\"') |
| 22:05.02 | Aelobin | DWSR: not played BS1 yet, but it looked awesome |
| 22:05.17 | DWSR | Play it for the story. |
| 22:05.38 | Aelobin | Xinhuan: but what if it finds "\"" |
| 22:05.46 | Aelobin | like |
| 22:05.48 | Xinhuan | str:gmatch('\"[^\]\"') |
| 22:06.00 | Xinhuan | solves that specific case |
| 22:06.06 | Aelobin | pfft sounds more hassle than this method =o |
| 22:06.17 | mikma | if strings match bra then hot end |
| 22:06.18 | Xinhuan | well you asked for optimization ;p |
| 22:06.24 | Aelobin | mikma: lol |
| 22:06.25 | Aelobin | :P |
| 22:06.29 | Aelobin | and yeh i know Xinhuan ty |
| 22:06.40 | Aelobin | bare in mind i just had my code ripped apart in about 3 directions :P |
| 22:06.43 | Xinhuan | my optimization method would involve finding this specific case first, then the general case > 1 letter strings |
| 22:06.51 | Xinhuan | so there is minimal function calls |
| 22:07.07 | Aelobin | hmm |
| 22:07.16 | Etanol | lua> print("!api string.upper") |
| 22:07.16 | lua_bot | Etanol: !api string.upper |
| 22:07.22 | Etanol | damn |
| 22:07.25 | Etanol | no recursion |
| 22:08.04 | Xinhuan | (btw if you don't need to optimize it, don't bother doing it ;p) |
| 22:08.09 | Aelobin | lol :P |
| 22:08.18 | Aelobin | it takes about 10 seconds of waiting for it to complete that code |
| 22:08.23 | Aelobin | but tbh i don't think its important :P |
| 22:08.39 | Xinhuan | you can do it if you are really free and want the challenge |
| 22:08.47 | Xinhuan | of reducing that 10 seconds to 2 seconds hehe |
| 22:08.50 | Aelobin | still need to code the rest first i guess :P |
| 22:09.30 | Xinhuan | one thing to remember: function calls are expensive |
| 22:09.36 | *** join/#wowuidev Thelyna (n=burp@122-57-249-52.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) |
| 22:09.40 | Aelobin | aye |
| 22:09.41 | Xinhuan | if you have 1800 lines, you have 1800 table.insert() |
| 22:09.52 | Xinhuan | that is unnecessary, if you just used a i=i+1 counter |
| 22:10.27 | Aelobin | Xinhuan: also in your method |
| 22:10.31 | Xinhuan | further more, table.insert is 2 table lookups, one for _G.table and one for table.insert |
| 22:10.34 | Aelobin | if you don't do something about removing the "" strings |
| 22:10.45 | Aelobin | then it'll try using the second " as the start of the next string |
| 22:10.49 | Aelobin | until it finds another " |
| 22:11.05 | Aelobin | although i think that was only an issue when i 1lined it first (this version doesnt as you can see) |
| 22:11.34 | Aelobin | Xinhuan: instead should i do tbl[#tbl+1] = v |
| 22:11.40 | Xinhuan | no |
| 22:11.47 | Xinhuan | t[#tbl+1] is slower |
| 22:11.53 | Xinhuan | than having a actual variable |
| 22:12.00 | Xinhuan | i = i+1, t[i] = blah |
| 22:12.12 | Xinhuan | but it can be handy and less verbose |
| 22:12.13 | Aelobin | ah yeh |
| 22:13.04 | Aelobin | Xinhuan: going back to the original optimisation |
| 22:13.14 | Aelobin | if you had an input line like this: |
| 22:13.40 | Aelobin | local a = "hi" local b = "" local c = "lol" |
| 22:13.46 | Aelobin | then it would find "hi" correctly |
| 22:13.49 | Aelobin | then it would try "" |
| 22:13.54 | Aelobin | but there's no chars between there |
| 22:13.59 | Aelobin | so it would try " local c = " |
| 22:14.10 | Aelobin | that's why i split front and end of the string finder |
| 22:14.53 | Xinhuan | you probably have to handle 0 and 1 char strings as special cases |
| 22:14.57 | Xinhuan | the rest should be general |
| 22:15.04 | Aelobin | what would you do about the "" then? |
| 22:15.27 | Xinhuan | well its an empty pair ~_~ |
| 22:15.33 | Aelobin | aye :P |
| 22:15.41 | Aelobin | but a bit pointless designating it a space in the strings table |
| 22:16.43 | Aelobin | never thought of treating them as special cases though |
| 22:16.56 | Aelobin | i always try to put everything into one function <_> |
| 22:17.38 | Xinhuan | there's a lot more special cases than that actually ;p |
| 22:17.38 | Etanol | xinhuan: why is t[#tbl+1] slower? |
| 22:17.55 | Xinhuan | because #tbl is an operator that counts the length of the table |
| 22:17.56 | Aelobin | is it because it's like doing getn which is another function call? |
| 22:18.08 | Xinhuan | the larger the table is, the longer #tbl takes |
| 22:18.14 | Xinhuan | to give you that value |
| 22:18.18 | Etanol | ah |
| 22:18.25 | cbreak | you could store the size |
| 22:18.31 | Xinhuan | at small table sizes, its negligible |
| 22:18.33 | cbreak | in a last_index variable |
| 22:18.43 | Xinhuan | at large table sizes, it shows |
| 22:18.56 | *** join/#wowuidev Jiminizer (n=jiminize@jiminizer.plus.com) |
| 22:19.20 | Xinhuan | one of those tricks you can use though in general, is to store the table size in the table itself |
| 22:19.25 | Xinhuan | t.count = #t |
| 22:19.33 | Aelobin | Xinhuan: hmm so replace "" with it's own _ |
| 22:19.45 | Aelobin | then replace "[^\\]" with each of their _ |
| 22:19.48 | cbreak | that would cost you a table index operation |
| 22:19.49 | Xinhuan | don't bother aelobin ;p |
| 22:19.49 | Aelobin | then do the longer strings |
| 22:19.53 | DWSR | I love the starting to this game\ |
| 22:20.00 | DWSR | 10 seconds in and the shit hits the fan |
| 22:20.00 | Xinhuan | you have to start worring about the case where " is the first char in the string |
| 22:20.06 | Xinhuan | and \" is the first 2 chars in the string |
| 22:20.19 | Xinhuan | even your original code doesn't account for those 2 cases |
| 22:20.42 | Xinhuan | but assumably these cases can't occur? |
| 22:21.23 | Xinhuan | also, do you know Lua strings can use 'string' or "string"? |
| 22:21.33 | Xinhuan | you can embed one type of quotes in another |
| 22:21.36 | Xinhuan | safely |
| 22:21.41 | foxlit | Or [[string]] or [=[string]=] |
| 22:21.42 | Aelobin | yeh i know :P |
| 22:22.00 | Aelobin | why does the first 2 not work? |
| 22:22.04 | Aelobin | the \" bit |
| 22:22.06 | Xinhuan | so :find("[^\"%\\]\"[^\"]"); is a mouthful |
| 22:22.12 | nevcairiel | or [========[string]========] |
| 22:22.14 | Aelobin | lol |
| 22:22.26 | Xinhuan | because you wouldn't have to escape " if you used '' |
| 22:22.34 | Xinhuan | and it would be a lot more readable |
| 22:22.41 | Etanol | hm |
| 22:23.02 | Aelobin | hmm 0.o |
| 22:23.14 | Xinhuan | so :find('[^"%\\]"[^"]'); that is |
| 22:23.23 | Xinhuan | entirely equivalent |
| 22:23.27 | Aelobin | is there any way round the ' " hi " ' issue? |
| 22:23.40 | Xinhuan | no, not really, not without real regexes |
| 22:23.59 | Aelobin | because you have to use the same char from front and back of the string like in regex? |
| 22:24.03 | Xinhuan | yes |
| 22:24.09 | Aelobin | because in regex you can pass that onto later in the matching can't you? |
| 22:24.15 | Etanol | why isnt regex in lua? did they want to be *alternative* ? |
| 22:24.16 | Xinhuan | [========[string]========] == "string" |
| 22:24.19 | Xinhuan | as well |
| 22:24.25 | Xinhuan | as long as the number of equal signs match |
| 22:24.27 | Aelobin | ok well tbh |
| 22:24.28 | Aelobin | screw the majority :P |
| 22:24.37 | Aelobin | i'll just say you HAVE to store strings in "" to use it |
| 22:24.42 | DWSR | Etanol: Because the size of the regex implementation is bigger than the whole Lua parser |
| 22:24.42 | Aelobin | xD |
| 22:24.55 | Xinhuan | [[string]] is the bare case |
| 22:24.59 | krka | not just lua parser, the entire lua period |
| 22:25.15 | Xinhuan | note that in the [[string]] case, everything inside the [[ ]] is treated as literal, " and ' are not escaped |
| 22:25.29 | Aelobin | cool |
| 22:25.46 | Aelobin | pfft i aint done a bad job for an lua parser coded in lua then :p condisdering no regex |
| 22:26.03 | Xinhuan | if you see a string like this "Interface\\AddOns\\Omen", then it can be written as [[Interface\AddOns\Omen]] |
| 22:26.18 | Xinhuan | because strings inside [[ ]] aren't escaped |
| 22:26.28 | krka | you did a lua parser in lua? |
| 22:26.34 | Xinhuan | newlines are literally newlines inside [[ ]] |
| 22:26.45 | Aelobin | krka: no quite, but i'm attempting something near it |
| 22:26.52 | Aelobin | only for a smaller purpose |
| 22:27.00 | Etanol | I think LuaEdit is written in lua ^^ |
| 22:27.02 | krka | building an AST and stuff? |
| 22:27.10 | Aelobin | Xinhuan: oooooooh now i understand --[[ |
| 22:27.23 | Xinhuan | --[[ ]] is just the block-string comment |
| 22:27.27 | Aelobin | yeh :D |
| 22:27.31 | Aelobin | and i understand why no w:P |
| 22:27.33 | Xinhuan | --[[ |
| 22:27.34 | Xinhuan | --]] |
| 22:27.42 | Xinhuan | are fairly standard for commenting |
| 22:27.45 | Aelobin | aye |
| 22:27.57 | Xinhuan | you just modify the top to ---[[ and it uncomments the whole block |
| 22:28.17 | Aelobin | :P |
| 22:28.52 | Xinhuan | that string would be equivalent to "\n--" btw ;p |
| 22:28.56 | Aelobin | so that code atm is ok for it's job? |
| 22:29.02 | Aelobin | may be a bit slow, and only accept strings in "" |
| 22:29.08 | Xinhuan | probably |
| 22:29.23 | Aelobin | meh that'll do me then rofl |
| 22:29.43 | Etanol | what are you coding aelobin? |
| 22:29.58 | Aelobin | erm.. nothign (a) |
| 22:30.02 | Aelobin | xD |
| 22:30.05 | Xinhuan | except like i told you |
| 22:30.10 | Xinhuan | if your line begins with a " |
| 22:30.13 | Xinhuan | your code will fail |
| 22:30.18 | Xinhuan | since you didn't handle that edge case |
| 22:30.22 | *** join/#wowuidev Dashkal (n=dashkal@WoWUIDev/Nexus/dashkal) |
| 22:30.31 | Aelobin | why would it start with a " ? due to --[[ ? |
| 22:30.46 | Aelobin | the code's gonna remove comments anyway |
| 22:30.49 | Xinhuan | i'm saying line 15 of your pastey will fail |
| 22:30.58 | Aelobin | stop saying fail so much :'( |
| 22:31.00 | Xinhuan | on a line that begins with " |
| 22:31.12 | Aelobin | Xinhuan: why would a line begin with " |
| 22:31.17 | Xinhuan | why not? |
| 22:31.20 | Xinhuan | local a = |
| 22:31.22 | Xinhuan | "abc |
| 22:31.24 | Xinhuan | def" |
| 22:31.30 | Aelobin | does that even work? |
| 22:31.35 | Xinhuan | yes |
| 22:31.41 | Aelobin | =o |
| 22:31.51 | Xinhuan | newlines aren't important |
| 22:31.52 | Aelobin | is there a fix for it? :S |
| 22:31.57 | Xinhuan | unless it is inside a [[]] |
| 22:32.05 | Xinhuan | no, you need special cases |
| 22:32.10 | Xinhuan | or use %f matching |
| 22:32.14 | Aelobin | ooooh |
| 22:32.16 | Aelobin | like |
| 22:32.40 | Aelobin | if line:match("^\") then concat with previous line |
| 22:32.44 | Xinhuan | lua> local a = '"abc"' print(a:find("[^\"%\\]\"[^\"]")) |
| 22:32.44 | lua_bot | Xinhuan: nil |
| 22:32.48 | Aelobin | and if can't find an end on that line, concat with next line |
| 22:32.58 | Xinhuan | i'm not so dense |
| 22:33.03 | Xinhuan | i would probably use a "hack" method |
| 22:33.19 | Xinhuan | and just prefix and suffix every line with " " |
| 22:33.26 | Aelobin | :P |
| 22:33.29 | Xinhuan | so that i don't have to use %f |
| 22:33.31 | Aelobin | cba with that though lol |
| 22:33.40 | Xinhuan | you can then strip the " " prefix/suffix later |
| 22:33.56 | Aelobin | hmm xin |
| 22:33.56 | Xinhuan | the problem with the :find() is you require the prev char before " not to be a \ |
| 22:34.02 | Xinhuan | but if " is the first char in the string |
| 22:34.06 | Aelobin | yeh i know :P |
| 22:34.09 | Xinhuan | then you can't check for a non-existant \ before it |
| 22:34.24 | Xinhuan | unless you prefix every line with a bogus char |
| 22:34.32 | Aelobin | aye |
| 22:34.36 | Xinhuan | i call it a hack method, but it works |
| 22:34.54 | Aelobin | but can i do... line:find("^\") ? |
| 22:35.08 | Xinhuan | ya |
| 22:35.13 | Aelobin | then if that exists, if there's no closing " later on, concat the next line (remove the \n) |
| 22:35.13 | Xinhuan | but that ends up as special case treatment anyway |
| 22:35.23 | Aelobin | yeh i'm intending on doing a special case XD |
| 22:35.27 | Xinhuan | lines can also end in \ |
| 22:35.36 | Xinhuan | which means to ignore the newline |
| 22:35.43 | Aelobin | :S |
| 22:35.46 | Xinhuan | local a = "abc\ |
| 22:35.48 | Xinhuan | def" |
| 22:35.59 | Xinhuan | it'll compile ;p |
| 22:36.05 | Aelobin | ouch |
| 22:36.09 | Etanol | are you doing a packager for your scripts? |
| 22:36.09 | Xinhuan | \ is an escape |
| 22:36.14 | *** join/#wowuidev ivorybishop (i=ivorybis@68-184-103-14.dhcp.dgls.ga.charter.com) |
| 22:36.16 | Xinhuan | and it will properly escape the newline |
| 22:36.25 | *** join/#wowuidev Aeyan (n=pancake@cpe-071-076-230-073.triad.res.rr.com) |
| 22:36.35 | Xinhuan | the above string will be equal to "abc\ndef" basically |
| 22:36.39 | Aelobin | but Xinhuan then there's foxlit's problem anyway |
| 22:36.43 | Aelobin | of \\\" and such |
| 22:38.43 | mikma | http://media.fukung.net/images/4984/1304.jpg |
| 22:38.48 | Aelobin | is there any way to combat that? |
| 22:39.01 | Aelobin | because \\\" is the same as \" isn't it? |
| 22:39.17 | Xinhuan | ya |
| 22:39.23 | Xinhuan | also note that escape codes can use numbers |
| 22:39.23 | Aelobin | i guess i could gsub \\\ for \ before starting |
| 22:39.27 | Aelobin | aye |
| 22:39.30 | Xinhuan | \013 is equal to \n |
| 22:40.33 | Aelobin | would that work? |
| 22:42.15 | Aelobin | Xinhuan: if i have a string containing \\\\\" |
| 22:42.29 | Aelobin | and i'm gsubbing \\\ with \ on that line |
| 22:42.30 | cog|away | Arrowmaster: Esamynn|Away: Zootfizzle: kmcguire: ScytheBlade1: (and if you see them, Shirik & alestane): I need to replace my router so tw will be down for a while |
| 22:42.32 | Aelobin | would it make it \" or \\\" |
| 22:43.16 | *** join/#wowuidev Odlaw (n=ozzy@c-98-245-39-78.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 22:43.30 | cog|away | (and anyone else who wants to join us after it's up: http://www.wowinterface.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21062 /shameless) |
| 22:44.09 | cog|away | bbl |
| 22:44.17 | Xinhuan | it matches from start of string |
| 22:44.19 | Xinhuan | as best as it can |
| 22:44.39 | Aelobin | lua> print(("\\\\\\\\\\\""):gsub("\\\\\\\"","\\\\") |
| 22:44.40 | lua_bot | Aelobin: luabot:1: ')' expected near '<eof>' |
| 22:44.41 | Xinhuan | the confusing part is that a string is treated literal |
| 22:44.44 | Xinhuan | normally |
| 22:44.45 | Aelobin | lua> print(("\\\\\\\\\\\""):gsub("\\\\\\\"","\\\\")) |
| 22:44.45 | lua_bot | Aelobin: \\\\, 1 |
| 22:44.58 | Aelobin | oops |
| 22:45.06 | Aelobin | lua> print(("\\\\\\\\\\\""):gsub("\\\\\","\\)) |
| 22:45.07 | lua_bot | Aelobin: luabot:1: ')' expected near '\' |
| 22:45.08 | Xinhuan | and the \ part is treated as escape when used as a search regex |
| 22:45.20 | Xinhuan | get it? lol |
| 22:45.32 | Aelobin | lua> print(("\\\\\\\\\\\""):gsub("\\\\\\","\\")) |
| 22:45.33 | lua_bot | Aelobin: \\\", 1 |
| 22:45.39 | Aelobin | dam |
| 22:45.51 | Aelobin | so i'm gonna have to do a while match loop? |
| 22:45.55 | Aelobin | to remove all \\\ into \ |
| 22:46.09 | Xinhuan | well |
| 22:46.16 | Xinhuan | its hard to explain this ;p |
| 22:46.39 | Aelobin | is it just me or is this getting more complicated :P |
| 22:46.44 | Industrial | lua> print(('\\\'):gsub('\\+', '\')) |
| 22:46.44 | lua_bot | Industrial: luabot:1: ')' expected near '\' |
| 22:46.52 | Xinhuan | a string you write in code as "\n\n" when compiled, is 2 bytes long |
| 22:46.53 | Industrial | I'm so fail at doing it right the first time |
| 22:46.55 | Industrial | :D |
| 22:47.38 | Xinhuan | however, if you were to construct this string as "\".."n".."\".."n", then this string is 4 bytes long |
| 22:47.41 | Aelobin | Xinhuan: is there anyway i can put \\\+ ? |
| 22:47.49 | Aelobin | so it's "for every group of 3" |
| 22:47.57 | Xinhuan | so your question is ambigious |
| 22:48.05 | Xinhuan | when you say your string is \\\" |
| 22:48.08 | Xinhuan | how many bytes is it |
| 22:48.18 | Xinhuan | 2 bytes, or 4? |
| 22:48.57 | Aelobin | :S |
| 22:49.03 | Xinhuan | if you typed it in as '\\\"' then its a 2 byte long string that literally means \" |
| 22:49.07 | Aelobin | screw it :P i'll just make sure i'm not a retarded programmer lol |
| 22:49.11 | Aelobin | when inputting the code |
| 22:49.19 | Aelobin | ah yeh i understand that bit |
| 22:49.43 | Xinhuan | when you asked me about a string that is \\\" did you really mean a typed string that is \\\\\\\" |
| 22:49.49 | Xinhuan | that compiles into \\\" ? |
| 22:49.57 | Xinhuan | :) |
| 22:49.59 | Aelobin | yeh |
| 22:50.11 | Xinhuan | i have a headache |
| 22:50.12 | Aelobin | like i did in my luabot script earlier |
| 22:50.15 | Aelobin | me too xD |
| 22:50.17 | Xinhuan | go whisper lua_bot lol |
| 22:50.21 | Xinhuan | with lua> |
| 22:50.27 | Aelobin | lua> print(("\\\\\\\\\\\""):gsub("\\\\\\","\\")) |
| 22:50.27 | lua_bot | Aelobin: \\\", 1 |
| 22:50.29 | Aelobin | :P |
| 22:50.53 | Aelobin | argh the confusion is |
| 22:51.01 | Aelobin | im inputting all this as a string containing lua :P |
| 22:51.07 | Aelobin | so it's hard to tell which chars are escaping etc |
| 22:56.32 | Aelobin | anyone know of a good lua obfuscator? :P |
| 22:58.17 | WobWork | ask the authors of Carbonite |
| 22:58.19 | cbreak | sed |
| 22:58.33 | cbreak | or just use a perl programmer |
| 22:59.35 | Aelobin | WobWork: tried already |
| 23:07.29 | *** join/#wowuidev Shirik (n=Shirik@conspiracy/developer/Shirik) |
| 23:07.29 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o Shirik] by ChanServ |
| 23:08.24 | Shirik | Cidan: ping |
| 23:16.42 | *** join/#wowuidev copystring (n=copystri@p548A1B50.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 23:17.45 | Etanol | can I use ace's serialize for deepcopy, instead of writing a function? |
| 23:18.12 | Etanol | tablecopy = myAddon:Deserialize(myAddon:Serialize(table)) |
| 23:18.31 | Shirik | lol |
| 23:18.36 | Shirik | that sounds like a horrible idea |
| 23:18.42 | Xinhuan | heh |
| 23:18.53 | Etanol | ^^ |
| 23:18.54 | Shirik | creative, but horrible |
| 23:18.58 | Xinhuan | i'll admit, its a pretty creative way |
| 23:19.02 | Etanol | saves me some rows of code |
| 23:19.14 | Etanol | ;) |
| 23:19.14 | Xinhuan | you could also have just written |
| 23:19.21 | Xinhuan | tablecopy = deepcopy(table) |
| 23:19.34 | Xinhuan | and implemented deepcopy() in about 8 lines! |
| 23:19.42 | Xinhuan | woo! |
| 23:20.05 | Etanol | what's the command to theck if a value is a table? |
| 23:20.26 | Shirik | type(var) |
| 23:20.29 | Etanol | ah |
| 23:20.32 | Xinhuan | type(v) == "table" |
| 23:21.45 | Etanol | so in deepcopy function, I reconstruct table in another table and return it? |
| 23:22.00 | Xinhuan | you can do it that way |
| 23:22.10 | Xinhuan | but essentially, its going to be recursive |
| 23:22.28 | Xinhuan | and it will create identical t2[k] = v copies |
| 23:22.52 | Xinhuan | depending on what you send it, you may or may not need to check for recursive tables |
| 23:23.00 | Xinhuan | so code the functino to your needs |
| 23:23.11 | Shefki | And if you have metatable stuff you may need to deal with that too. |
| 23:23.13 | Xinhuan | for eg, you may need to copy metatables as well |
| 23:23.36 | Xinhuan | or test if v is a frame, and not deepcopy it |
| 23:23.41 | Xinhuan | and just copy a shallow reference |
| 23:23.47 | kmcguire | cog: The server died? |
| 23:23.54 | Xinhuan | it all depends on what exactly you needs are |
| 23:23.57 | Shefki | kmcguire: He siad it would. |
| 23:24.00 | Shefki | kmcguire: Scroll up. |
| 23:24.03 | kmcguire | OH |
| 23:24.06 | Etanol | what is a metatable? ^^ |
| 23:24.10 | kmcguire | I mean oh. |
| 23:24.15 | Xinhuan | if you dont know, don't ask for now ;p |
| 23:24.35 | Xinhuan | it is a table that specifies the behavior of a table |
| 23:24.55 | Xinhuan | on certain actions, such as missing keys, new indexes, function calls, operator overloading, etc |
| 23:26.19 | Etanol | aha |
| 23:26.28 | Etanol | not on that level yet |
| 23:26.34 | Shirik | t = {}; setmetatable(t, {__call = function() print("I am a table!"); end}); print(type(t)); t() |
| 23:26.38 | Shirik | lua> t = {}; setmetatable(t, {__call = function() print("I am a table!"); end}); print(type(t)); t() |
| 23:26.39 | lua_bot | Shirik: table, I am a table! |
| 23:27.10 | Etanol | haha :D |
| 23:27.11 | Etanol | awesome |
| 23:27.57 | Xinhuan | the really nice part about lua is it allows you to customize all that behavior to your exact needs |
| 23:28.42 | Shirik | Supposedly __len is going to work for tables in 5.1 |
| 23:28.52 | Xinhuan | err? |
| 23:28.56 | Xinhuan | we're already on 5.1 |
| 23:28.59 | Shirik | 5.2 |
| 23:29.00 | Shirik | sorry |
| 23:29.09 | Etanol | and __len does what? |
| 23:29.10 | bleeter | Cairenn: hahah look what the cat dragged in from the day of the BC launch! http://users.on.net/~bleeter/modder_with_a_penis.html |
| 23:29.16 | Xinhuan | so we can override the behavior of #t? |
| 23:29.17 | Shirik | Modify the behavior of the # operator |
| 23:29.18 | Xinhuan | excellent |
| 23:29.28 | Etanol | awesome |
| 23:29.35 | Xinhuan | that will make some tasks easier |
| 23:29.36 | Industrial | cool |
| 23:30.35 | Xinhuan | the last 5 pages of teh questhelper thread |
| 23:30.51 | Xinhuan | has turned into a flamewar arguing for and against zorba's behavior |
| 23:31.00 | Xinhuan | of whether living off questhelper is moral or not ;p |
| 23:31.59 | Etanol | he actually lives off it? :P |
| 23:32.00 | bleeter | pity you can't obfucate code anymore so addons won't work for select dickhead users |
| 23:32.00 | Tekkub | not! |
| 23:32.11 | ZorbaTHut | etanol, I did |
| 23:32.26 | Etanol | you got that much donations? |
| 23:32.26 | Tekkub | and that makes you a very bad person |
| 23:32.31 | ZorbaTHut | etanol, I did. |
| 23:32.35 | ZorbaTHut | I wasn't getting rich |
| 23:32.43 | kmcguire | No matter how much you obfucate the code. It is always reversible. You have no black box to hide it in. |
| 23:32.49 | ZorbaTHut | but I was paying the bills and had a reasonable amount left over |
| 23:33.09 | Tekkub | paying bills is evil |
| 23:33.17 | Xinhuan | will you ever disclose amounts received like many other authors? |
| 23:33.20 | ZorbaTHut | oh man, I have to go dig out the best quest ever again |
| 23:33.29 | ZorbaTHut | xinhuan, honestly, I'd have to go do a lot of work to determine those amounts :P |
| 23:33.40 | ZorbaTHut | low five figures, though |
| 23:33.47 | Tekkub | the IRS is gonna want you to do that work ^^ |
| 23:33.55 | Shefki | Xinhuan: OMG he made thousands of dollars... Poor Blizzard is out on the street pan-handling becuase of ZorbaTHut. :P |
| 23:33.57 | ZorbaTHut | tekkub, I already did, I just don't want to go open up my taxes again |
| 23:34.03 | ZorbaTHut | it was depressing enough the first time :( |
| 23:34.09 | Xinhuan | honestly, it is really just goign to paypal, doing a search, and ctrl+drag the column to copy the column of $ and pasting it into excel ;p |
| 23:34.12 | Tekkub | oh right, doubleclicking is a lot of work |
| 23:34.24 | ZorbaTHut | xinhuan, *cough* paypal has trouble with doing a search for that many columns |
| 23:34.33 | ZorbaTHut | well, rows |
| 23:34.37 | Xinhuan | i'm sure you'll manage :p |
| 23:34.41 | Shefki | Seriously guys, he isn't obligated to share his financial information with the public at large. |
| 23:34.42 | Xinhuan | because you know you want to do it |
| 23:34.55 | bleeter | ZorbaTHut: just go make a bunch of figures up |
| 23:34.59 | bleeter | no one will be the wiser |
| 23:34.59 | Xinhuan | if only for personal info hehe |
| 23:35.26 | ZorbaTHut | bleeter, one hundred billion dollars |
| 23:35.30 | Tekkub | Shefki, quiet you |
| 23:35.36 | Xinhuan | ^^^ |
| 23:35.49 | Xinhuan | no need to say the obvious hehe |
| 23:36.04 | ZorbaTHut | oh, here's the best quote ever |
| 23:36.07 | ZorbaTHut | "Are you daft? People aren't complaining about the fact that he was asking for donations alone - it was that he was dishonest about where those "donations" were going. They weren't funding the addon at all, they were paying rent and buying groceries.. |
| 23:36.19 | ZorbaTHut | god I need to save that somewhere |
| 23:36.30 | Etanol | haha |
| 23:36.51 | Etanol | where was that posted? |
| 23:37.01 | ZorbaTHut | one of the megathreads |
| 23:37.06 | ZorbaTHut | I *think* in the original one, not the QH-specific one |
| 23:37.08 | Etanol | linkplx |
| 23:37.09 | kmcguire | I think it is okay to live off the donations. I mean that is why they send them. So you continue working on the addon. |
| 23:37.11 | Shefki | Damn, I hope Blizzard doesn't have a cafeteria in that new fancy building. |
| 23:37.14 | ZorbaTHut | no idea, sorry |
| 23:37.18 | Shefki | Hate to think they spent money on feeding people. |
| 23:37.22 | ZorbaTHut | there's the actual quote, ctrl-f your way through the thread ;) |
| 23:37.49 | Xinhuan | zorba wait till u read pages 11-16 of your QH thread lol |
| 23:37.58 | Xinhuan | its like WHOA minefield of quotes |
| 23:37.59 | *** join/#wowuidev cogwheel (n=cogwheel@WoWUIDev/WoWProgramming/morlando/cogwheel) |
| 23:37.59 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+v cogwheel] by ChanServ |
| 23:38.03 | Etanol | where is that thread? :/ |
| 23:38.18 | ZorbaTHut | xinhuan, I'm looking at it now. I feel like I should go make popcorn to eat while reading this |
| 23:38.32 | Etanol | wheeere |
| 23:38.43 | ZorbaTHut | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15864446930 |
| 23:38.46 | Etanol | thx |
| 23:38.49 | Xinhuan | you won't because making popcorn means less reading time :P |
| 23:38.58 | ZorbaTHut | I think it's really funny that people are saying "pfft, if he'd used his skills to look for a real job, he'd be fine" |
| 23:39.00 | ZorbaTHut | I *am* fine |
| 23:39.07 | ZorbaTHut | I'm just fine in a way that might mean questhelper gets fewer hours :P |
| 23:39.16 | cogwheel | tw should be back up |
| 23:39.21 | Xinhuan | He specifically states that the donations he gets go to his apartment along with his utilities and his food. |
| 23:39.21 | Xinhuan | He otherwise wouldn't be so stressed out because he isn't getting donations. The prime source loss of income is devastating. It will make you do stupid and say stupid things. As the example of this entire thread. |
| 23:39.26 | Xinhuan | hahaha |
| 23:39.48 | ScytheBlade1 | cogwheel: too bad I'm still dead |
| 23:39.55 | cogwheel | :'( |
| 23:39.59 | Shirik | dead? |
| 23:40.12 | *** join/#wowuidev ecs (n=ecs@unaffiliated/ecstasia) |
| 23:40.13 | ScytheBlade1 | Shirik: something about flying into piles of mines |
| 23:40.15 | Shirik | rofl |
| 23:40.34 | cogwheel | appaarently Zootfizzle hasn't made his sector corp-friendly :P |
| 23:40.59 | ScytheBlade1 | nope |
| 23:41.04 | Shirik | 11 2 -4 1 Sbo # Ship Destroyed # |
| 23:41.05 | Shirik | Muahahaha |
| 23:41.19 | *** join/#wowuidev WobWork (n=Wobin@203-206-178-228.perm.iinet.net.au) |
| 23:41.24 | Shirik | I didn't even have to blow you up! |
| 23:41.41 | ScytheBlade1 | nope |
| 23:41.43 | ScytheBlade1 | Friendly fire |
| 23:43.21 | ZorbaTHut | "He can't maintain QH without donations because he depends on the donations to live. Not because QH needs the donations. Not because the Donations GO TO the Development of QH. He uses the donations to LIVE each month." |
| 23:43.27 | ZorbaTHut | oh man you're right. this is like a gold mine |
| 23:44.39 | Xinhuan | meanie ;p |
| 23:44.59 | ZorbaTHut | how dare I spend my money on rent and food, instead of somehow building an electronic funnel to turn dollars magically into code |
| 23:45.31 | Iriel | wait what, you can DO that? |
| 23:45.42 | ZorbaTHut | iriel, apparently! I can't imagine what else they could be telling me to do |
| 23:45.50 | kmcguire | But, you know Zorbat. How much income are we talking about here from donations. I mean no specific figures but are we looking at under 30k a year or over 40k a year? |
| 23:45.59 | Shefki | Iriel: I have such a funnel. |
| 23:46.08 | kmcguire | If your under 30k a year then.. It might not be worth it. |
| 23:46.09 | Shefki | Iriel: I'll share it with you if you pay me a lot of money. |
| 23:46.18 | ZorbaTHut | kmcguire, somewhere around 60-70k for a good chunk |
| 23:46.55 | ZorbaTHut | technically, when I put up the donation message on *everyone's* screens, at the very beginning, I was making about 900k/yr, but I only had that running for a few days and it obviously wouldn't have been sustainable. Still, it was a nice proof-of-concept. |
| 23:47.02 | bleeter | ZorbaTHut: fwiw for those amount you should get yerself protected legally by some QH non-profit organisation or some foo |
| 23:47.20 | bleeter | if this crap ever sorts itself out |
| 23:47.25 | ZorbaTHut | bleeter, yeah, I'm considering incorporating if I keep doing QH stuff, just to add a level of shielding against Blizz lawyers |
| 23:47.57 | bleeter | ZorbaTHut: it may also protect you if (heaven forbid) you do a release that's infected, etc. etc. |
| 23:48.30 | bleeter | amongst other stuffs |
| 23:48.35 | Xinhuan | except that its not necessary? |
| 23:48.41 | Xinhuan | you already removed the donation stuff |
| 23:48.51 | Xinhuan | blizz has no legal grounds |
| 23:49.21 | ZorbaTHut | xinhuan, man, have you read that thing? technically speaking, if I use any CPU cycles or RAM, they could sue me |
| 23:49.28 | bleeter | I'm still favoring the README telling people to remove the 'function nagware_for_donations' from the addon before it's loaded |
| 23:49.32 | ZorbaTHut | it's a giant blank check for blizzard to ban and sue any developers they don't like |
| 23:49.35 | Xinhuan | ok heh |
| 23:49.45 | kmcguire | I am sure blizzard is not going to sue someone. |
| 23:49.49 | bleeter | and having said removal part of the LEGAL.TXT to use the addon |
| 23:49.51 | cogwheel | kmcguire: try them |
| 23:49.53 | Xinhuan | i'll agree with you that policy is vague enough to cover every addon under the sun |
| 23:49.59 | ZorbaTHut | kmc, I think it's quite unlikely, yes. I'm not willing to get sued for it, however. :) |
| 23:50.02 | cogwheel | actually, someone really should |
| 23:50.27 | kmcguire | Well my add-on does extensive synchronization across the chat channels. They could sue me for excessive chat system usage. |
| 23:50.35 | Xinhuan | the fact is blizzard is the first company to sue a bot maker? |
| 23:50.37 | kmcguire | But, I highly doubt I would get sued. It just makes no sense. |
| 23:50.47 | Xinhuan | i wouldn't suspect them to also be the first to sue an addon maker |
| 23:51.01 | cogwheel | kmcguire: but they can use it as an excuse to target particular mods they don't like |
| 23:51.01 | bleeter | actually |
| 23:51.02 | bleeter | hmm |
| 23:51.04 | cogwheel | e.g. QH |
| 23:51.10 | kmcguire | cog: I agree. |
| 23:51.15 | bleeter | smells to me of some restrictive trade clause in .au law |
| 23:51.18 | Shirik | so cogwheel is of the opinion they don't like QH? |
| 23:51.28 | kmcguire | They can and I bet they did it just to be able to target some add-ons they do not feel confortable with. |
| 23:51.38 | Xinhuan | there is nothing inherently wrong about QH apart from maybe the donation solictation, they view it as advertisements right? |
| 23:51.48 | kmcguire | But, I think they have some reasons for trying to be able to target add-ons that make them uncomfortable. |
| 23:52.18 | cogwheel | just an example since the discussion was about ZorbaTHut |
| 23:52.18 | bleeter | cogwheel: I'd have to check with my lawyers but I suspect there's an angle Blizz's PoV may actually be illegal in .au. |
| 23:52.24 | Aznamir | Was QH nagging for donations? |
| 23:52.26 | bleeter | anyways |
| 23:52.31 | kmcguire | cog: Oh, yeah. I understand. |
| 23:52.34 | Aznamir | like every 5 minutes? |
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| 23:52.38 | kmcguire | You are right about it. |
| 23:52.44 | Xinhuan | no Aznamir, but it nags once every 2-3 weeks |
| 23:52.44 | cogwheel | kmcguire: i figured you did... that was to shirik's q :P |
| 23:52.50 | cogwheel | sry for lack of context .. |
| 23:53.04 | Shirik | you didn't really answer my question |
| 23:53.11 | ZorbaTHut | aznamir, one day per week, it would put a line in the chatframe saying "hey I live off donations, gimme some money if you think it's worthwhile, thanks ^5" |
| 23:53.17 | Aznamir | whoa.. once 2-3 weeks should not have been an issue |
| 23:53.19 | Aznamir | at all |
| 23:53.19 | Xinhuan | errr i better get rid of a copy of zygor's leveling guide from my wow folder now right? |
| 23:53.26 | ZorbaTHut | (approx one day per week, it was actually 2-3 days every 2-3 weeks, as I remember) |
| 23:53.27 | cogwheel | I can't say I hold that opinion, no... At least not with respect to its core functionality |
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| 23:53.45 | Shirik | Cairenn: Stop that |
| 23:53.47 | cogwheel | Shirik: ^ <-- Context I'm doing it wrong |
| 23:54.43 | Xinhuan | does wowi have any change of policy in response to blizzard's policy? |
| 23:55.01 | Shirik | It has always been our policy to follow Blizzard's regulations |
| 23:55.04 | Xinhuan | will wowi, like, for eg, now look at all uploaded addon code to see if its obfuscated? |
| 23:55.28 | Shefki | I suspect they won't look for violations, just respond when they are pointed out. |
| 23:55.35 | Shirik | I think you're completely wrong Shefki |
| 23:55.50 | bleeter | 'coz 'grep -iR donat' is so hard to execute |
| 23:56.08 | Shefki | Shirik: You guys have the time to go through code and figure out what does and doesn't violate Blizzard's vague policy? |
| 23:56.21 | Shirik | I'm not going to read every line, no |
| 23:56.27 | bleeter | Shefki: I think the phrase 'obvious violation is obvious' applies |
| 23:56.35 | Xinhuan | well that's the point of my question |
| 23:56.57 | Shirik | and incgamers has never hosted a virus, right? |
| 23:56.59 | Xinhuan | would wowi now look at every addon's code to try to ensure it doesn't violate blizz's policy? |
| 23:57.15 | Shirik | Will we look at every addon's code? Sure. will we look at every line? Probably not |
| 23:57.29 | cogwheel | heh... this actually would seem to open up addon sites to extra liability |
| 23:57.37 | Shirik | But I don't think there's going to be many cases of "hide obfuscated line on #854" |
| 23:57.38 | cogwheel | not that i'd think blizzard would go after them |
| 23:57.52 | bleeter | cogwheel: it hadn't ocurred to you earlier? |
| 23:57.59 | bleeter | cogwheel: hence my suggestion re: nonprofit protection |
| 23:58.06 | bleeter | any distribution point |
| 23:58.07 | cogwheel | it does only take one line though... depending on your editor you might pass right by it and never notice |
| 23:58.09 | Shirik | except there's a disclaimer of liability on the site, cogwheel |
| 23:58.15 | foxlit | but then you have to be a nonprofit |
| 23:58.22 | cogwheel | Shirik: k then :) |
| 23:58.26 | Shirik | cogwheel: Now you're just being as stupid as Shefki |
| 23:58.37 | bleeter | foxlit: it's not rocket science |
| 23:58.42 | Shefki | Shirik: Wow way to be rude. |
| 23:58.44 | cogwheel | Shirik: calm down... |
| 23:58.45 | Shirik | To every policy there's an edge case of "oh well I can do this and get around it muahaha!" |
| 23:59.00 | foxlit | bleeter: I'm not sure, but I don't think zam/curse are in it for the cute kittens :) |
| 23:59.15 | bleeter | foxlit: heh yeah, I'm more concerned about the garage coder with no protection |
| 23:59.27 | Shirik | No, I'm sick of people making stupid arguments just to be stupid about it. I answered the question, and the only response is "well I bet you can't do this then!" If I had responded to that with a solution, it would only continue until I didn't have a solution. |
| 23:59.38 | Shirik | Welcome to the age-old question of virus hunters |
| 23:59.42 | Shirik | s/question/problem/ |
| 23:59.47 | cogwheel | 16:58 <@Shirik> except there's a disclaimer of liability on the site, cogwheel |
| 23:59.47 | cogwheel | 16:58 < foxlit> but then you have to be a nonprofit |
| 23:59.47 | cogwheel | 16:58 -!- Aelobin [n=Aelobin@212-139-68-187.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] |
| 23:59.49 | Shefki | Shirik: yes and WTF does this have to do with me? |
| 23:59.50 | cogwheel | 16:58 <+cogwheel> Shirik: k then :) |
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