| 00:00.10 | Dagmar | Kaso: One could make the argument that wrappering the "private" parts of an addon with an obfuscation tool that requires a code from a website to enable would neatly sidestep some of these new rules |
| 00:00.16 | *** join/#wowuidev Shirik (n=Shirik@conspiracy/developer/Shirik) |
| 00:00.16 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o Shirik] by ChanServ |
| 00:00.20 | Legorol | to the question of how obfuscated is obfuscated: i know it's a very hard concept to grasp, but can we maybe apply a cup of common sense? |
| 00:00.30 | Legorol | *intent* is obviously the important part |
| 00:00.36 | Dagmar | ...since such a tool could entail the "private" code being distributed for free, merely in an unuseable format. |
| 00:00.42 | mikma | oh, ++ for obama |
| 00:00.42 | Esamynn | Legorol: oh no, you don't ever want to apply *common sense* :P |
| 00:00.48 | mikma | he visited jay leno |
| 00:00.57 | mikma | first president ever to do that |
| 00:01.00 | Kaso | im only being pedantic for fun :) |
| 00:01.00 | Dagmar | mikma: Did he find a way to *unsay* that about the Special Olympics? |
| 00:01.09 | Shirik | Dagmar: He released a statement |
| 00:01.19 | Legorol | who is jay leno? |
| 00:01.19 | Dagmar | I suspect there won't be another President on Leno for awhile |
| 00:01.25 | Shirik | I really think people are making a big deal out of something that's stupid |
| 00:01.27 | Shirik | it was a joke |
| 00:01.30 | Shirik | on a comedy show |
| 00:01.32 | Shirik | wtf do you expect |
| 00:01.35 | kd3 | ^ |
| 00:01.36 | kd3 | ^^^^^ |
| 00:01.45 | NeoTron | people expect... Bush? :P |
| 00:01.48 | kd3 | I'd quote it and go "This", but that doesn't work on irc |
| 00:01.53 | NeoTron | Didn't kno youw, Presidents aren't humans |
| 00:01.54 | Dagmar | Shirik: I hope the Special Olympics people have a sense of humor (which it appears that they do) |
| 00:01.55 | NeoTron | they are robots |
| 00:01.57 | |Jelly| | Arrowmaster: I lol'd. Pretty hard. |
| 00:02.08 | Arrowmaster | =D |
| 00:02.10 | Shirik | Dagmar: It seems the media are making more of a deal out of it than anyone else |
| 00:02.11 | Dagmar | I had a slight suspicion it was planned anyway |
| 00:02.21 | Shirik | because they'll always be looking for something to rag on a politician for |
| 00:02.24 | Esamynn | Shirik: *gasp* say it ain't so! |
| 00:02.25 | NeoTron | I missed it so don't know what it is but alas |
| 00:02.39 | Dagmar | Shirik: Yes, they're waiting for a retarded version of Al Sharpton (hah!) to appear and lead them all to higher ratings |
| 00:02.55 | Shirik | NeoTron: He said something along the lines of "Yeah, soon enough I'll be able to enter the special olympics" when talking about his bowling |
| 00:03.07 | Dagmar | He should have said "Jerry's Kids" |
| 00:03.12 | Dagmar | He'd have been in the clear on that |
| 00:04.05 | mikma | shirik: i find that funny tbh |
| 00:04.11 | Dagmar | The Special Olympics folks are pretty clear on the idea that they're having it to show that SO competitors are capable of feats just as good as someone who isnt' handicapped in some way |
| 00:04.46 | mikma | tells me he sucks at bowling and people at special olympics are better than him |
| 00:05.15 | Dagmar | He quoted a score of 129, so it's probably true that 80% of America is better at bowling than he is |
| 00:05.28 | Shirik | Hell, I'm better than him |
| 00:05.53 | Dagmar | We didn't elect him for his ability to tell a joke. |
| 00:05.58 | Dagmar | Thankg od. |
| 00:06.58 | |Jelly| | I'm ... not. |
| 00:07.07 | |Jelly| | ... by like ... 30-60 |
| 00:07.50 | *** join/#wowuidev slakah (i=5ad5da43@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-24dda8d8bab634d3) |
| 00:08.37 | Dagmar | Well, during last year's campaign he apparently somehow bowled a 37 |
| 00:08.50 | Dagmar | I know six year olds who have a higher average than that |
| 00:09.18 | Dagmar | ...and they get up there and sit on their knees and push the ball with both hands. |
| 00:09.51 | |Jelly| | WoW Arrowmaster. |
| 00:10.01 | |Jelly| | Calling out Adrine. lol |
| 00:10.25 | Arrowmaster | no just calling out the idiots that wont notice he didnt say Omen3 |
| 00:10.31 | |Jelly| | ahh |
| 00:11.02 | |Jelly| | Then I retract my statement and follow it with a brotherly high-five since apparently hugging makes people uncomfortable. |
| 00:11.37 | PProvost | I like hugs |
| 00:12.48 | PProvost | damn conference mode eh |Jelly| ? |
| 00:13.25 | |Jelly| | Eh, I generally wouldn't have noticed anyway. I see Shiibot and automagically think he's still here. |
| 00:18.42 | *** join/#wowuidev Shirik (n=Shirik@conspiracy/developer/Shirik) |
| 00:18.42 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o Shirik] by ChanServ |
| 00:19.02 | Shirik | hahahaha, that was a mistake |
| 00:19.06 | Shirik | Well I just made my broken user account more broken |
| 00:19.30 | Shirik | I thought it would be "clever" to remove the old ntuser.dat files which are corrupted on my account, create a new account, then hard link the ntuser.dat file from the new account into my old account's user directory |
| 00:19.31 | mikma | (insert evil laugh) |
| 00:19.38 | Shirik | Now it just logs me off immediately when I log on |
| 00:20.03 | Legorol | Shirik: it's probably confused over SAMs |
| 00:20.14 | Legorol | or SIDs or whatever they are called |
| 00:20.23 | Shirik | I'm debating whether I use the new account or if I really want to bother fixing |
| 00:21.07 | foxlit | Hm, I wonder |
| 00:22.11 | foxlit | new Thread(new Runnable() { public void run() while(not expired or cancelled) { parent.repaint(); Thread.sleep(20); } }})).start(); |
| 00:22.26 | foxlit | There should so be a better way for that :/ |
| 00:22.49 | Shirik | why would you do that |
| 00:22.57 | Shirik | is there a reason you aren't using AWT? |
| 00:25.54 | Antiarc | So. I'm just catching up on this whole addon policy debacle. |
| 00:25.57 | Antiarc | Blaaaaahhhhh. |
| 00:26.08 | Antiarc | So utterly disincentivized to write anything remotely related to WoW now. |
| 00:26.37 | bleeter | i dun get it |
| 00:26.44 | Legorol | Antiarc: does the policy actually stop you from something that you are doing atm? |
| 00:26.48 | End | YES |
| 00:26.50 | Legorol | If not, why the knee-jerk reaction? |
| 00:26.54 | End | he was putting in donation links |
| 00:27.00 | foxlit | Shirik: because I want to animate something |
| 00:27.04 | End | (stupid caps lock) |
| 00:27.08 | Legorol | End: ah ok |
| 00:27.10 | Antiarc | Legorol: No, it doesn't. What it does do is show an utter lack of respect for the developer community and our individual rights as software developers. |
| 00:27.17 | bleeter | blizz aren't saying you don't ahve to stop writing your harry potter encyclopedia.. all they're saying is you can't shove adverts for it in the middle of the movie and books |
| 00:27.19 | Shirik | foxlit: You can do that with awt |
| 00:27.23 | foxlit | And I'm ignorant of a better way :) |
| 00:27.26 | End | Antiarc: you didn't put in a donation link? |
| 00:27.26 | Antiarc | And no, I didn't put in donation links, the Ace2 framework did. |
| 00:27.27 | bleeter | er d/don't/ |
| 00:27.29 | foxlit | swing is on top of awt, so shoot. |
| 00:27.30 | End | well, poo on you! |
| 00:27.31 | End | ah |
| 00:27.33 | Shirik | Oh, I see what you're doing |
| 00:27.37 | *** join/#wowuidev Jamash (n=Jamash@75-25-130-215.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 00:27.38 | End | close enough |
| 00:27.58 | Shirik | You should invalidate, not repaint |
| 00:28.05 | Shirik | let AWT figure out when to actually repaint |
| 00:28.08 | Arrowmaster | Antiarc: it did? sure maybe it wasnt people using rock config? |
| 00:28.10 | Antiarc | I have never actively solicited donations from any addon, but I'm very unhappy that Blizzard has decided to hobble addons like that. |
| 00:28.20 | Antiarc | Arrowmaster: Ace2 provided donation links for a while |
| 00:28.31 | Shirik | That being said, that code is actually dangerous, FoxFurry |
| 00:28.34 | Shirik | foxlit* |
| 00:28.38 | foxlit | Shirik: what does that net me, if I just want to maintain a constant framerate? |
| 00:28.40 | Shirik | I don't think you can safely do that from another thread |
| 00:29.01 | foxlit | Stole it from http://java.sun.com/products/java-media/2D/samples/suite/ |
| 00:29.09 | bleeter | THEIF@!!@!@ |
| 00:29.10 | Antiarc | This doesn't affect me in practice, but I am absolutely against it in principle. |
| 00:29.24 | Jamash | IANAL but I doubt that any provisions but 3 and 8 are enforceable |
| 00:29.26 | Antiarc | I agree with Cog in that the existence of pay-for addons is a great thing for the community |
| 00:29.46 | Antiarc | And I'm qualified to say that because I wrote one of the most popular addons in WoW because I didn't like the existing choices. |
| 00:29.49 | Dagmar | Jamash: Considering Blizz is ready to drop in something that will prevent addons being loaded by name? |
| 00:29.51 | Shirik | Jamash: Beaten to death already. Let's drop it. You are not a lawyer, probably neither is anyone else in this room. I'm fairly certain Blizzard knows what they're doing. |
| 00:29.55 | jaxdahl | foxlit is a furry? i knew it |
| 00:30.04 | bleeter | half blizz's problem is they've relied on the community to do their professional work for them (eg, they should've had their own damn macro guide, their own damn API guide) |
| 00:30.06 | Dagmar | They can actually enforce quite a number of things. |
| 00:30.10 | Jamash | I said 8 is enforceable, didn't I? |
| 00:30.23 | bleeter | now people who've put their own sweat and tears into that feel like they're getting kicked in the face, understandably |
| 00:30.36 | Shirik | foxlit: If you want a consistent framerate then repaint is really what you want, yes |
| 00:30.38 | bleeter | 'coz blizz too slack to do it themselves and people won't be .. eager .. to finish blizz's job for them in future |
| 00:30.46 | Antiarc | They've built up a great product largely on the backs of the enthusiast, and then turn around and curbstomp the community for their efforts. |
| 00:30.48 | Wraithan | Link to the topic at hand? |
| 00:30.52 | NeoTron | Antiarc: but the existing choice wasn't a pay for addon so that's hardly related ;-) |
| 00:30.55 | Shirik | invalidate just marks the area as dirty and AWT will, at some point in the future, repaint |
| 00:30.57 | Antiarc | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15864747207&sid=1 |
| 00:31.02 | Jamash | Unless you're copying blizzard code, you can't stop someone from distributing their own copyrighted work for $$$ |
| 00:31.04 | bleeter | Wraithan: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/policy/ui.html |
| 00:31.07 | Dagmar | bleeter: Blizzard wasn't "too slack" in not adding quest spoiler functionality |
| 00:31.20 | Dagmar | Jamash: Yeah, but you can tell the client not to load their addon |
| 00:31.21 | foxlit | hm, no macro guide sticky. |
| 00:31.34 | Antiarc | NeoTron: Doesn't really matter. I didn't like the choices at hand and wrote and distributed a superior alternative. Pay-for or not is really irrelevant. |
| 00:31.35 | Arrowmaster | so who else besides jelly liked my hypothetical example? |
| 00:31.47 | Shirik | ? |
| 00:31.50 | |Jelly| | *in a different voice* I did! |
| 00:31.55 | foxlit | (at http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/board.html?forumId=11114&sid=1 ) |
| 00:31.57 | bleeter | Arrowmaster: think the more appropriate q. is 'who saw it?' lol |
| 00:31.58 | Arrowmaster | ~failrick |
| 00:31.59 | purl | extra, extra, read all about it, failrick is Shirik's been Rick Rolled! |
| 00:32.01 | Wraithan | wtf |
| 00:32.02 | NeoTron | Antiarc: right so it's not an argument for keeping pay-for addons... but whatever |
| 00:32.10 | Wraithan | Why do they care? |
| 00:32.12 | Arrowmaster | ~failirck |
| 00:32.16 | Antiarc | It's an argument that pay-for addons are not inherently harmful to the community |
| 00:32.21 | Arrowmaster | seems im the one that fails tonight |
| 00:32.30 | Arrowmaster | ~failrik |
| 00:32.31 | purl | FAIL, Shirik, FAIL! |
| 00:32.32 | Dagmar | Sadly there's plenty of examples where for-pay addons are bad |
| 00:32.37 | Arrowmaster | yay i found it |
| 00:32.42 | Antiarc | Dagmar: [Citation Needed] |
| 00:32.53 | NeoTron | Antiarc: Carbonite? :) |
| 00:32.58 | Wraithan | I don' t think those pay for addons are bad at all, not many people use them and those that do are happy with their choice |
| 00:32.59 | PProvost | I don't think the argument is about pay for but, as cog put it, author freedom. |
| 00:33.14 | Antiarc | Carbonite has spurred the development of QuestHelper and TourGude. |
| 00:33.23 | NeoTron | but carbonite itself is bad |
| 00:33.26 | *** join/#wowuidev Iriel (n=Iriel@adsl-71-158-244-138.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) |
| 00:33.26 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o Iriel] by ChanServ |
| 00:33.31 | slakah | QH was around before carbonite wasn't it? |
| 00:33.34 | Dagmar | Antiarc: That's like giving Microsoft credit for Linux development |
| 00:33.38 | Antiarc | But its existence doesn't inherently hurt the community |
| 00:33.42 | foxlit | Shirik: invalidate flushes the layout, which doesn't really help with painting -- but we're both right, repaint is what I want to call :) |
| 00:33.43 | Dagmar | failfailfailfail |
| 00:33.50 | amro | does anyone have an idea how they will implement addon blacklisting? |
| 00:33.54 | Jamash | I personally think for-pay addons are bad, but I would defend their right to exist |
| 00:34.14 | Shirik | repaint basically does invalidate and then waits for AWT to repaint |
| 00:34.15 | mikma | give it a rest already |
| 00:34.23 | Antiarc | Dagmar: You don't think that closed-source software is part of the impetus for open-source software to be developed? |
| 00:34.25 | Dewin | Jamash: I tend to agree with that stance. I won't use Carbonite for philosophical reasons, but I don't mind those who do. |
| 00:34.25 | Wraithan | Exactly, I would never use a pay for addon but if folks wanna charge for their addon so be it |
| 00:34.27 | NeoTron | waht is really bad is obfuscated code |
| 00:34.35 | NeoTron | pay or not, that is pure bad |
| 00:34.37 | End | amro: there's a dbc that stores info, but I'm not sure how they're actually checking it |
| 00:34.38 | mikma | you've been going about that for 5 hours now |
| 00:34.48 | PProvost | Antiarc: OSS was the egg. Not the chicken. |
| 00:34.49 | Jamash | whether or not it's bad, should it be banned? |
| 00:34.50 | foxlit | Shirik: not in Swing |
| 00:34.51 | Dagmar | Antiarc: Most of the OS software is written because the author feels a need for it, not because some monopolist has a commercial product |
| 00:34.52 | PProvost | Historically |
| 00:35.06 | Dewin | I don't know how exactly they'd blacklist addons either, since it would just take a few changes to a line of code to make it look like a different addon. |
| 00:35.10 | amro | End: yep I know about the dbc, I'm curious how they would identify an addon when it can, say, shuffle its code around or change its name |
| 00:35.17 | Dagmar | Taking money away from a monopolist is just icing on the cake. |
| 00:35.25 | foxlit | Tosses a PaintEvent into the event queue, paints when that event is processed. Layout isn't affected at all, as far as I can see. |
| 00:35.28 | Dagmar | amro: Hence, "no obfuscated code" |
| 00:35.41 | End | no idea how they check that |
| 00:35.41 | foxlit | Perhaps that was one of the areas they changed. |
| 00:35.44 | amro | Dagmar: yes, I'm talking about how the client would know :P |
| 00:35.44 | PProvost | Simply blocking by name would suffice. |
| 00:35.48 | Dagmar | End: Pretty easily actually |
| 00:35.48 | slakah | I have a feeling that Blizz will change/clarify #5 |
| 00:35.55 | NeoTron | PProvost: you can rename .. |
| 00:36.05 | foxlit | The easiest way to blacklist addons is to mandate signing by a key you can get tied to your account. |
| 00:36.15 | Jamash | foxlit: I wouldn't call that "easy" |
| 00:36.19 | End | that'd be a whitelist |
| 00:36.23 | amro | indeed |
| 00:36.26 | End | not a blacklist :P |
| 00:36.26 | Jamash | "most straightforward", perhaps |
| 00:36.30 | foxlit | If the addon isn't signed, don't load it |
| 00:36.32 | Dagmar | amro: Let's say you have ' print "blah foo bah" ' and ' $name="23kknfi2nfkschisf2,f" ' side-by-side |
| 00:36.34 | Dewin | End: If you had to request a developer key to sign addons |
| 00:36.35 | PProvost | You can, but from a commercial standpoint, someone paid you $10 for an addon. They used it for a week and now it doesn't work. They yell at YOU and not Blizz. And they won't buy your stuff again. |
| 00:36.43 | Dewin | Blizzard could blacklist all of a developer's addons (basically, revoke the key) |
| 00:36.47 | foxlit | When you want to ban an addon, check who signed it |
| 00:36.55 | foxlit | (a) Ban then (b) Revoke their keys. |
| 00:37.00 | Dagmar | amro: You can *easily* evaluate that one of these things has a signficantly larger proportion of volatile data in it |
| 00:37.03 | foxlit | then=them |
| 00:37.20 | bleeter | foxlit: heh, I've been banging on about signing keys and accounts and stuff for a while, no one ever listens ;) |
| 00:37.20 | Iriel | Does it really matter how they'd choose to blacklist addons? |
| 00:37.24 | Dagmar | amro: It's a pretty standard check for possibly hostile javascript code |
| 00:37.46 | amro | Iriel: no, just curious how it can be done on a technical level |
| 00:37.55 | Iriel | Isn't it enough to know that they've said they will do it if necessary (and that it's likely to be considered "bad" to try and circumvent that if they do) |
| 00:38.06 | PProvost | Iriel: commiunity full of enginerds will speculate/problem solve/game any system put in front of them. :) |
| 00:38.22 | amro | ^ |
| 00:38.22 | Jamash | Iriel: But what does "bad" mean? Account revocation? DMCA takedown? Lawsuit? |
| 00:38.28 | Iriel | Well, just remember that "disabling them all" would be an option if people try to be too persistent about dodging it. |
| 00:38.40 | PProvost | Indeed! |
| 00:38.42 | amro | I hope it doesn't get that far |
| 00:38.47 | Iriel | And personally I dont want that |
| 00:38.50 | bleeter | Iriel: when being told not to walk into the wall, it's all well and fine to know the wall exists. but if one doesn't know precisely *where* it is... ;) |
| 00:39.01 | PProvost | lol |
| 00:39.16 | Iriel | bleeter: That isn't really the case here |
| 00:39.24 | Jamash | http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2000/10/11/ |
| 00:39.34 | Iriel | they're not saying "dont write your addon so it'll be picked up by the blacklister" |
| 00:39.44 | Iriel | they're saying "if we need to, we'll blacklist addons" |
| 00:39.55 | End | they also said |
| 00:40.02 | Iriel | I completely agree that almost any approach COULD be circumvented |
| 00:40.02 | End | "if we need to, we'll send lawyers" |
| 00:40.11 | Dagmar | Jamash: Difference being that VErant at that point was demonstratably evil |
| 00:40.29 | Tekkub | okey, something to lighten the mood with this no pay addons crap |
| 00:40.29 | Tekkub | http://imgs.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2005/10/30/mn_suicide30_loc_tt.gif |
| 00:40.43 | Jamash | I'm not comparing blizzard and Verant, just the language of the debate reminded me |
| 00:40.47 | Tekkub | NSFBPMD |
| 00:40.53 | *** join/#wowuidev Odlaw (n=ozzy@c-98-245-39-78.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 00:41.05 | NeoTron | wtf does nsfbpmd mean? :P |
| 00:41.06 | Dagmar | That picture's part of the reason they've got suicide hotline phones like every 30 feet all along the bridge |
| 00:41.06 | Iriel | Tekkub: Cheery |
| 00:41.24 | Tekkub | bi-polar manic depressives |
| 00:41.28 | Jamash | not safe for bipolar mds? |
| 00:41.28 | Dagmar | I thought they were roadside assistance phones at first |
| 00:41.34 | Jamash | yay I got half right |
| 00:41.36 | Iriel | The whole 'barrier' idea bugs me on the bridge, it'll spoil the view and I'm not convinced it'll stop anyone who is determined to jump |
| 00:41.50 | Dagmar | "No ma'am, my rental car did break down but I'm not all that upset about it... Why do you ask?" |
| 00:41.51 | foxlit | That's a nice diagram |
| 00:42.00 | Jamash | they should put a barrier over the entire ocean |
| 00:42.03 | foxlit | Someone did their reading :) |
| 00:42.05 | Tekkub | iriel: nets! |
| 00:42.09 | Tekkub | anywho dinnertime |
| 00:42.17 | NeoTron | clearly lightpole number 69 is the way to go |
| 00:42.27 | Jamash | bow wow wocka chicka |
| 00:42.27 | Dagmar | I mean, you see a phone by a road with no perceiveable shoulder and you think maybe it might be vaguely car-related in some way |
| 00:42.27 | foxlit | Iriel: some form of glass? |
| 00:42.28 | Iriel | it's dead center |
| 00:42.30 | PProvost | Tekkub: I like the ones where the guy jumped onto land. |
| 00:42.32 | Antiarc | They just need Elika to hang out on the bridge |
| 00:42.35 | Antiarc | And rescue people that fall off |
| 00:42.40 | Iriel | foxlit: glass is bad |
| 00:42.56 | Iriel | it's pretty high up |
| 00:43.00 | Iriel | you're dead either way |
| 00:43.58 | Dagmar | Putting those phones out lowered the number of suicides, but didn't do much for helping stranded motorists |
| 00:45.23 | Esamynn | zomg, a bridge of death! |
| 00:45.45 | Dagmar | Damn emo kids |
| 00:46.02 | Iriel | It's a great walk by the way, if you're ever in the vicinity |
| 00:46.08 | Iriel | parking can be a bit of a pain |
| 00:46.21 | Dagmar | Pole 69 is popular because the view is better on that side, and it looks to be dead-center of the bridge |
| 00:46.22 | Esamynn | I've been to San Fran once, on a family camping trip |
| 00:46.33 | Jamash | you camped in san francisco? |
| 00:46.40 | Esamynn | not in the city |
| 00:46.49 | Iriel | Dagmar: Actually, pedestrians can normally only go down that side of the bridge |
| 00:46.49 | Dagmar | Jamash: Never seen the park at Upper Haight have you |
| 00:46.53 | Iriel | Dagmar: the other side is for bikes |
| 00:47.00 | Dagmar | Iriel: I know I lived there for awhile |
| 00:47.16 | Dagmar | I'm not just being facetious about having grabbed the suicide hotline phone after a flat tire |
| 00:47.30 | Dagmar | They don't really mark them all that explicitly |
| 00:47.33 | Esamynn | ROFL |
| 00:47.40 | Jamash | "hi, my car is suicidal" |
| 00:47.48 | amro | I think they should just breed sharks in the water, that ought to dissuade people from diving in it... right? |
| 00:48.07 | Dagmar | I said "Man I've got a flat tire here" and the woman starts talking about not jumping off the bridge |
| 00:48.13 | |Jelly| | How so? The end would justify the means, right? |
| 00:48.33 | Dagmar | amro: I hate to break this to you but there *are* sharks in that water |
| 00:48.42 | Dagmar | They're just not real common |
| 00:48.44 | Shirik | Jamash: Our car has an AI in it |
| 00:48.59 | Dagmar | You can see Alcatraz from that thing |
| 00:49.55 | mikma | shirik: "please make me a real boy" |
| 00:49.55 | Shirik | Fortunately, it has a supervisory controller built on a set of rules to stop it from doing stupid things |
| 00:49.55 | Dagmar | LIke locking the brakes at 80 |
| 00:49.55 | Shirik | I... don't think it controls the breaks |
| 00:49.55 | amro | Dagmar: hm I wonder how many people jumped off BECAUSE of flat tires |
| 00:49.57 | Shirik | Engine and transmission only |
| 00:50.11 | Shirik | I mean, it could theoretically send out CAN messages to the brakes, sure, but it's not going to spontaneously start doing that :P |
| 00:50.15 | Shirik | in theory, at least |
| 00:50.16 | Dagmar | amro: I'm not sure someone that easily turned towards suicide would be able to make it all the way to the bridge |
| 00:50.17 | mikma | amro: "omfg a flat tire!" -> jump |
| 00:50.39 | Dagmar | Shirik: Remember the "crushomatic" Saab back in the 80's? |
| 00:50.51 | Dagmar | Failsafes == GOOD |
| 00:50.51 | amro | Dagmar: that's quite an epic line |
| 00:50.54 | Shirik | It's actually just an AI to decide between several different types of hybrid control |
| 00:51.12 | Shirik | It's constantly tuning the control strategy to make most efficient use of the battery |
| 00:51.22 | Dagmar | The thing could get into a state where it would think the engine was about to die, so it would increase the throttle, with no real limit |
| 00:51.34 | Shirik | oh no I don't know any "crushomatic" :P |
| 00:51.46 | Jamash | I'm not sure embedded systems qualify as "AIs" |
| 00:51.51 | Dagmar | ...so there were a few incidents where Saab owners would get into their car, start it up, and it would immediately race towards the back of the garage and squish anything in the way for a good 10-15 seconds |
| 00:51.58 | Shirik | Back-propagating neural network qualifies as AI, Jamash |
| 00:52.17 | Jamash | someone's putting a neural network in *cars*? |
| 00:52.22 | Shirik | ayup |
| 00:52.27 | Dagmar | Skynet has to start somewhere |
| 00:52.30 | Shirik | wrote a paper on it, to be specific |
| 00:52.43 | Shirik | A lot of the code is already written |
| 00:52.52 | Dagmar | ...although if it'll protect me from drunken hillbillies I'll take full AI control as a mandatory measure for some roadways in a blink |
| 00:52.52 | Shirik | We're in the simulation/rapid prototyping phase |
| 00:53.00 | Shirik | In august we'll have the car to stick it in |
| 00:53.28 | Shirik | Don't worry, it's my job to make sure skynet doesn't happen :) |
| 00:53.36 | Dagmar | That's what they all say |
| 00:53.37 | Shirik | I'm lead of fault tolerance and simulation right now |
| 00:53.47 | Iriel | Shirik: Oh like THAT fills me with confidence 8-) |
| 00:53.48 | Shirik | I'm the one that pokes holes trying to figure out what happens when something goes wrong |
| 00:53.53 | Shirik | :( |
| 00:54.07 | Shirik | Iriel is mean |
| 00:54.30 | Iriel | It's more I can imagine you creating Skynet "because you could" |
| 00:55.06 | Shirik | heh |
| 00:55.11 | Shirik | while I might |
| 00:55.17 | Shirik | I'm not on the AI team directly |
| 00:55.25 | Shirik | (though we've termed them IM team) |
| 00:56.04 | Shirik | I do 3 major things: Fault tolerance testing, fixing the shit the database team "produces" if you can call it that, and hardware-software interface |
| 00:57.05 | Shirik | The AI is done by 3 other people |
| 00:57.16 | Shirik | 2 of which I don't really have much confidence in |
| 00:57.17 | Wraithan | Speaking of AI, I think that wow should have should have some servers (For a separate fee or something) where automation allowed. I think the development of AI for arena teams and such would be really interesting |
| 00:57.29 | Shirik | that is a really cool idea Wraithan |
| 00:57.38 | Shirik | imo, unprotect all API calls on that server |
| 00:57.53 | ZorbaGama | wraithan, that would be pretty dang neat, honestly |
| 00:57.54 | Shirik | probably requires more work for blizzard than it's worth, but it's a cool concept |
| 00:57.56 | Wraithan | Like back in the BBS days when you had some boards that allowed scripting, and some that did not |
| 00:57.57 | foxlit | (and you still wouldn't be able to emulate everything) |
| 00:57.57 | Xinhuan | would be nothing more than an interesting diversion ;p |
| 00:58.02 | ZorbaGama | although I have to say I'd find raid AI more interesting |
| 00:58.13 | ZorbaGama | write bots that can do a full achievement run of Naxx |
| 00:58.19 | Xinhuan | LOL |
| 00:58.25 | Wraithan | I think it would spark up AI teams and they could make money off tournaments |
| 00:58.41 | foxlit | Wraithan: better projects to contribute to if you're interested in that :) |
| 00:58.43 | ZorbaGama | (and I would totally have my bots do "/ra lol nub" whenever any of them died on Heigan) |
| 00:58.50 | Shirik | lol |
| 00:58.53 | Xinhuan | well unless there's some real incentive for people to write AI teams, than to just show off addon prowess |
| 00:58.57 | Xinhuan | ppl likely won't do it |
| 00:59.01 | Xinhuan | even if it exists |
| 00:59.16 | Shirik | I doubt there would be MANY people that do it |
| 00:59.19 | Wraithan | foxlit: not without investing a lot of money, most fun I had with AI was PvE AI in EQ, from the player side :D |
| 00:59.24 | amro | I'd make AI bots that get pissed and /gquit if they wipe too much |
| 00:59.26 | Shirik | but I think there's some out there that have a lot of fun seeing their stuff work |
| 00:59.38 | Wraithan | Shirik: agreed, it would be a niche market |
| 00:59.48 | amro | considering my AI skills, that would pretty much they'd all gquit |
| 00:59.54 | *** join/#wowuidev ckknight (n=ckknight@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/CurseStaff/CurseForge/ckknight) |
| 00:59.54 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o ckknight] by ChanServ |
| 00:59.58 | End | that'd be really interesting |
| 01:00.05 | End | but there's no way that'd ever happen |
| 01:00.06 | foxlit | Wraithan: I was going to suggest something, but I can't find the link |
| 01:00.09 | NeoTron | slouken made a bot in beta |
| 01:00.12 | Wraithan | But it would be the new version of chest AI tournaments |
| 01:00.23 | NeoTron | it would join a party, follow people, do some light chatting and fight I think |
| 01:00.29 | NeoTron | not very smartly but alas |
| 01:00.30 | amro | End: optimistic are we? :P |
| 01:00.39 | Wraithan | Nah he is right |
| 01:00.47 | Wraithan | It wouldn't happen but I think it is a great idea |
| 01:00.59 | Dagmar | One thing about that bridge I dont' egt tho. What idiot thought it was a good idea to put a national guardsman at each end with a rifle pointed *at* oncoming traffic? |
| 01:01.14 | Shirik | Without a lot of work from Blizzard it could never happen though |
| 01:01.16 | Dagmar | How often do you need to stop suicide bombers from departing the scene |
| 01:01.19 | Shirik | for example, Heigan |
| 01:01.21 | mikma | http://kuvaton.com/kuvei/comma_sutra_tshirt.gif |
| 01:01.34 | Shirik | impossible to write a bot even with full access to the API right now |
| 01:01.46 | Wraithan | Shirik: not true at all |
| 01:01.48 | Shirik | you have no idea when the stuff shoots up |
| 01:01.52 | Shirik | unless someone gets hit |
| 01:01.56 | Shirik | which is a bad way to do it imo |
| 01:02.02 | Wraithan | With 3.1 you will have coords in dungeons |
| 01:02.06 | foxlit | sigh, this is annoying. |
| 01:02.08 | Shirik | Yes, but WHEN do you move |
| 01:02.17 | NeoTron | time it from when he telepors |
| 01:02.21 | Dagmar | You'll be able to have arrows show you where to go |
| 01:02.22 | Shirik | ha |
| 01:02.33 | Xinhuan | ha ha |
| 01:02.42 | Shirik | While I guess that could work, I teach a realtime class and would never agree with that course of action |
| 01:02.50 | Shirik | albeit, in lieu of any other alternative... |
| 01:02.57 | amro | Shirik: just get your bots to use BigWigs |
| 01:03.02 | Shirik | rofl |
| 01:03.08 | Xinhuan | one thing you will never get a bot to react to |
| 01:03.09 | Xinhuan | is a void zone |
| 01:03.16 | Shirik | oh god, bots that could analyze what they're doing, go to interface sites and pick out an addon |
| 01:03.17 | NeoTron | indeed |
| 01:03.20 | Xinhuan | unless you get graphics API to read the screen |
| 01:03.23 | Wraithan | To react before being hit? probably not |
| 01:03.32 | Wraithan | but a lot of void zones don't outright kill yo |
| 01:03.37 | Shirik | Sartharion |
| 01:03.42 | Xinhuan | the KT ones do |
| 01:03.44 | amro | assuming they would go through the trouble of setting up AI realms, I guess they'd open up a lot more events on the API |
| 01:03.48 | Xinhuan | and sarth3 does |
| 01:04.02 | NeoTron | the KT ones |
| 01:04.08 | Shirik | true amro, that's why I'm saying "without a lot of extra work" |
| 01:04.10 | NeoTron | can you live if you use an immunity shield? |
| 01:04.24 | Xinhuan | yes |
| 01:04.25 | NeoTron | like talented Anti-Magic SHell, iceblock, DS? |
| 01:04.27 | End | how do you know when to use it |
| 01:04.28 | End | ? |
| 01:04.29 | Wraithan | yeah, it is magic damage, anti magic shell works |
| 01:04.43 | Xinhuan | but you won't know it hit you until it already has |
| 01:04.50 | Wraithan | Really it wouldn't need to be much more than it already is |
| 01:05.01 | Wraithan | they would just need to trigger a text event when you get in a void zone |
| 01:05.40 | amro | in order to get your bot to even move around you'd be receiving a lot of data about the environment, meaning you'd probably also receive voidzone locations so it's a non-issue |
| 01:05.41 | Wraithan | If they can detect and kill you for standing in one, they can detect and tell you, that you are in one |
| 01:06.07 | Xinhuan | not true amro |
| 01:06.14 | Xinhuan | the only environment data we get is coordinates |
| 01:06.16 | Xinhuan | nothing else |
| 01:06.17 | Wraithan | amro: not true, we didn't have direct access to that information when I was hacking in EQ |
| 01:06.26 | Shirik | speaking of bots |
| 01:06.27 | Xinhuan | and only x,y coords, not x,y,z |
| 01:06.29 | Shirik | time to log on to TradeWars |
| 01:06.38 | amro | Xinhuan: and you can move around with those, without hitting walls? :) |
| 01:06.44 | Xinhuan | yeah |
| 01:06.47 | Wraithan | sure, |
| 01:06.51 | amro | (and without using a hardcoded terrainmap, which is just fugly) |
| 01:06.53 | Xinhuan | as long as your code knows where the walls are |
| 01:07.03 | Wraithan | ok, then dynamically learn |
| 01:07.05 | Xinhuan | but that's the whole point of AI scripting |
| 01:07.15 | amro | yes, but you'd be scripting a blind bot |
| 01:07.26 | Xinhuan | dynamic learning would make it take too much processing power ;p |
| 01:07.32 | Wraithan | not really |
| 01:07.38 | Xinhuan | although if you have 25 of them learning at the same time and share data... |
| 01:07.41 | Shirik | It's actually not as intensive as you think |
| 01:07.44 | Wraithan | used to learn the layout of zones in EQ |
| 01:07.45 | Shirik | But |
| 01:07.54 | Shirik | There are a lot of variables to think about |
| 01:07.59 | Wraithan | but we had x,y, z |
| 01:08.11 | Wraithan | was a two part process though |
| 01:08.32 | amro | having just coordinatesis tricky. your bots will spend more time corpserunnning after falling off cliffs and ledges |
| 01:08.32 | Wraithan | first part was to wonder about, second was to generate a map from it |
| 01:08.39 | amro | and don't even get me started ont he gluth pipe :) |
| 01:08.55 | Wraithan | without Z that would make it hard |
| 01:09.32 | foxlit | Ah, here |
| 01:09.32 | foxlit | http://www.cs.ualberta.ca/~mburo/orts/ |
| 01:10.09 | Dagmar | So, they play like noobs then |
| 01:10.37 | Dagmar | How long until they can ask dumb questions about the quest NPCs they're standing right in front of? |
| 01:11.09 | amro | foxlit: very interesting, thanks for the link |
| 01:12.14 | amro | Dagmar: I worry more about how long until they start making Chuck Norris jokes |
| 01:12.45 | Dagmar | I dunno what hacking he was doing on EQ but I definitely had every teensy piece of data teh client got |
| 01:12.51 | Shirik | cog|away.... |
| 01:12.56 | Shirik | you really gotta stop blowing yourself up man |
| 01:13.02 | Shirik | it's not healthy |
| 01:13.30 | Shirik | For playing your turns today, you receive 1 experience point(s). |
| 01:13.30 | Shirik | and your alignment went up by 0 point(s). |
| 01:13.31 | Shirik | You have already achieved the highest alignment! |
| 01:13.34 | Shirik | :( I broke the game |
| 01:14.54 | foxlit | (on an unrelated note, the list of GSOC mentoring organizations is up) |
| 01:15.21 | Dagmar | amro: so long as I never see libanalspam complaining that libdictionary isn't present |
| 01:18.07 | Xinhuan | what game is that |
| 01:18.09 | Jamash | someone's probably already written a bot that does nothing but play the AH |
| 01:18.28 | Jamash | the user would just have to click "OK" every so often to buy or sell |
| 01:18.33 | ZorbaGama | jamash, it's called Auctioneer ;) |
| 01:18.37 | ZorbaGama | and you have to run to the mailbox once in a while too |
| 01:18.44 | Shirik | Xinhuan: http://www.wowinterface.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21062 |
| 01:19.04 | Dagmar | Jamash: there were glider users running the AH like that |
| 01:19.11 | Xinhuan | :o |
| 01:19.13 | Dagmar | You could spot them easily if you knew what to look for |
| 01:19.16 | ZorbaGama | (seriously, I do this - I also automatically mail disenchantables to my DE alt, and I've got scripts set up on him so I just click "yes" repeatedly while watching youtube videos) |
| 01:20.12 | Xinhuan | ok i think i've played something similar before lol |
| 01:20.23 | Dagmar | Now if we can just get Norganna to put a confidence check on batch posting lots of stackables in piles of one |
| 01:20.35 | Shirik | ? |
| 01:20.42 | Rabbitbunny | lol |
| 01:20.56 | Shirik | confidence check? |
| 01:21.03 | Dagmar | I saw about 150 linen cloths listed in the AH on Detheroc yesterday |
| 01:21.06 | Dagmar | One piece at a time. |
| 01:21.10 | Xinhuan | statistics, shirk ;p |
| 01:21.13 | Xinhuan | shirik* |
| 01:21.19 | Shirik | no shit |
| 01:21.26 | Shirik | I'm the one who does the most of the statistics on auctioneer |
| 01:21.27 | Dagmar | Shirik: Yes, like the check it does when you first try to click the fast getall button |
| 01:21.30 | Shirik | but still what are you talking about |
| 01:21.49 | Shirik | oh like "Are you sure?" |
| 01:21.49 | Dagmar | "Are you really sure you want to do this? It might disconnect you or make you look like a total jackass." |
| 01:22.02 | Xinhuan | probably something like a 95% confidence interval that selling stacks of 1 will profit more over selling stacks of 5 or 20 |
| 01:22.20 | Xinhuan | but hey that's probably overdoing it |
| 01:22.23 | Dagmar | More like to gain confidence that the user really does want to post 75 pieces of cloth one piece at a time |
| 01:22.25 | Shirik | you'd be surprised how hard 95% is to hit |
| 01:22.43 | Shirik | the standard deviation on most markets is pretty damn high |
| 01:22.56 | Shirik | (for WoW, I mean) |
| 01:23.06 | Shirik | which is what's leading me to start Stat_Trend |
| 01:23.21 | Shirik | But I need to finish the updater first |
| 01:23.38 | *** join/#wowuidev ckknight_ (n=ckknight@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/CurseStaff/CurseForge/ckknight) |
| 01:23.38 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o ckknight_] by ChanServ |
| 01:24.09 | Dagmar | People are pretty bad about it with elementals, too. |
| 01:24.12 | Iriel | Are there any stats that track the day of the week? |
| 01:24.25 | Iriel | The weekend market and the weekday market on my realm are like 2 different entities |
| 01:24.36 | Shirik | y overdoing it |
| 01:24.36 | Shirik | (21:22:18) (Dagmar) More like to gain confid |
| 01:24.39 | Shirik | er |
| 01:24.42 | Shirik | I fail at copying |
| 01:24.47 | Shirik | Iriel: http://wiki.norganna.org/Auc-Stat-Trend |
| 01:24.48 | kd3 | ~failrik |
| 01:24.49 | purl | FAIL, Shirik, FAIL! |
| 01:25.21 | Dagmar | Buy frozen orbs at 5am is easy enough to remember, isn't it? |
| 01:25.23 | Shirik | That is exactly why I started that project |
| 01:25.40 | Shirik | Because I noticed that on my server, prices for elixirs go to hell on Tuesdays, because EVERYONE raids tuesdays |
| 01:25.45 | Iriel | Shirik: Nifty |
| 01:25.55 | Iriel | Shirik: If it also has proper aging, wow, i might use it 8-) |
| 01:26.05 | Shirik | Dagmar: It's not that it's hard to remember, it's that it influences prices significantly |
| 01:26.08 | Dagmar | Shirik: Sounds like a perfectly good reason to skim the cheap ones during the rest of the week |
| 01:26.53 | Dagmar | I figure if I can skim without raising prices on the days I dump the stuff, I'm probably not destabilizing anything |
| 01:28.34 | Dagmar | Trying very hard to be unnoticeable about it when I do it on my server so as not to encourage the fools who would start going at it until their name is at the top of the list of who's got stuff for sale |
| 01:29.29 | Dagmar | ...but I know what you mean about potions being scarce on a very regular schedule. Saturday early evening on my main server potions are all but nonexistant |
| 01:30.50 | Dagmar | For the record, the mechanochopper was paid for by buying materials and turning them into epics to sell |
| 01:31.01 | Dagmar | I <3 healthy economies |
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| 01:45.32 | Jamash | I just blew all the money I've made from buying orbs and furs and turning them into leg armors on getting a albino drake |
| 01:45.53 | Jamash | s/a a/an a/ |
| 01:46.41 | Jamash | still need more runecloth to get my last exalted city rep though |
| 01:50.43 | Fisker- | ownt ownt ownt |
| 01:50.48 | Fisker- | All add-ons must be distributed free of charge. Developers may not create "premium" versions of add-ons with additional for-pay features, charge money to download an add-on, charge for services related to the add-on, or otherwise require some form of monetary compensation to download or access an add-on. |
| 01:50.56 | Jamash | late Fisker- is late |
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| 01:55.07 | Shirik | ~ping |
| 01:55.07 | purl | ~pong |
| 02:01.05 | *** join/#wowuidev cog|away_ (n=cogwheel@c-98-210-45-202.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) |
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| 02:03.03 | foxlit | Could've used a troll earlier, Fisker-! :) |
| 02:07.22 | Fisker- | I like this change it's exciting! |
| 02:10.01 | Shirik | Why does xperl have a "Healers Targetting Me" by default? |
| 02:10.20 | *** part/#wowuidev Dewin (n=Daniel@c-71-59-222-35.hsd1.or.comcast.net) |
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| 02:12.20 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o Zootfizzle] by ChanServ |
| 02:12.56 | Syzgyn | Shirik: The bigger question is why are you using xperl? |
| 02:13.19 | Shirik | It's funny, really |
| 02:13.27 | Shirik | I get to test a lot of addons while writing this updater |
| 02:13.39 | Shirik | because someone will say something's broken and then I have to go get that addon |
| 02:13.42 | Shirik | and then I start playing with it |
| 02:13.45 | Shirik | because I never delete it |
| 02:14.44 | Syzgyn | Its so ugly though :( |
| 02:16.33 | Shirik | One turn deducted, 666 turns left. |
| 02:16.36 | Shirik | :< |
| 02:20.23 | Fisker- | you should chase goasts |
| 02:21.42 | Shirik | or goatse |
| 02:21.55 | Fisker- | what's he done? |
| 02:27.27 | *** join/#wowuidev AbsolutRayne (n=chatzill@XPLR-MCI-74-127-239-30.barrettxplore.com) |
| 02:31.19 | *** join/#wowuidev kd3 (n=kd3@wikia/kaydeethree) |
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| 02:48.23 | AbsolutRayne | Super quiet |
| 02:50.13 | haste | I blame it on 4AM |
| 02:51.46 | Shirik | Does /who only do 49 people instead of 50 now? |
| 02:51.58 | Shirik | or is it just coincidence that I keep getting 49 people over and over |
| 02:52.07 | haste | it has always given 49 |
| 02:52.28 | Shirik | oh :( |
| 02:54.26 | AbsolutRayne | Always 49, yeah |
| 02:57.03 | cog|away_ | Arrowmaster: loved it :) |
| 02:58.32 | AbsolutRayne | Wow |
| 02:58.33 | AbsolutRayne | Poor Mage |
| 02:58.35 | AbsolutRayne | :( |
| 02:59.58 | *** join/#wowuidev digmouse (n=chatzill@222.240.182.154) |
| 03:00.04 | AbsolutRayne | I think I crit him too hard...he logged out |
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| 03:03.15 | kd3 | slow cog is slow. he's been trolling for pages |
| 03:03.29 | End | kd3: no |
| 03:03.32 | cogwheel | i just got here ~15 mins ago :P |
| 03:03.37 | End | he's fail |
| 03:03.39 | End | that's what! |
| 03:04.02 | cogwheel | actually, he's doing a very fine job spouting poorly-supported arguments that are easily shot-down |
| 03:04.10 | cogwheel | more efficient this way imo ;) |
| 03:04.14 | cogwheel | like a built-in faq |
| 03:04.15 | kd3 | indeed. I love lighting up straw men |
| 03:04.23 | End | karred? yeah, he's an idiot |
| 03:04.33 | NightHawkTheSane | ugh, "wah wah, i can't tank an acolyte" pallies piss me off. |
| 03:04.44 | End | hm, yeah, he's his own strawman describes him well |
| 03:05.09 | Shirik | cogwheel: |
| 03:05.14 | Shirik | Not sure if you saw me say this earlier |
| 03:05.26 | Shirik | I know you're scared of me and all, but you don't have to keep blowing yourself up |
| 03:06.35 | Bibi | soooooo |
| 03:06.54 | Bibi | I need a simple addon coded, fairly fast, anyone want to be potentially-famous? (the potentially part is very important) |
| 03:07.03 | Shirik | ha |
| 03:07.26 | Bibi | (it's like saying that kd3 is potentially nice) |
| 03:07.37 | Bibi | (or Shirik potentially annoying when he highlights me) |
| 03:07.48 | Arrowmaster | Bibi: are you planning to break a new policy? |
| 03:07.54 | kd3 | potentially nice? maybe when I'm in a good mood |
| 03:08.02 | kd3 | tonight? not so much |
| 03:08.09 | Bibi | Arrowmaster: no I just need something coded for my personnal use :p |
| 03:08.31 | Bibi | very basically, I need item notes |
| 03:08.37 | End | technically, if you take their wording literally, anything for personal use is forbidden :P |
| 03:09.10 | End | we don't have any "proper" legalese though, so a lawyer could probably twist the words in any which way he wanted |
| 03:09.18 | Bibi | a way to write down anything I want on items tooltips, to keep a trace of a few things |
| 03:09.31 | Bibi | (= Bibi is tired of doing his loot tables on excel all the time) |
| 03:09.59 | Arrowmaster | i swear theres something that does that |
| 03:10.02 | Bibi | so basically I just need an addon to save ... the itemID and my note for the item. |
| 03:10.03 | Arrowmaster | not sure how old it is though |
| 03:11.25 | NightHawkTheSane | heh.. http://www.nbcuniversalstore.com/detail.php?p=86381&v=sci-fi_battlestar-galactica |
| 03:12.08 | Shirik | 1. Duel mage in 400ish frost resist gear |
| 03:12.13 | Shirik | 2. Beat mage in duel |
| 03:12.23 | Shirik | 3. Mage rage-logs |
| 03:12.26 | Shirik | 4. ??? 5. Profit? |
| 03:12.40 | Shirik | too many steps |
| 03:12.48 | *** join/#wowuidev art3mis (n=IceChat7@WoWUIDev/WoWI/HKUI/art3mis) |
| 03:13.10 | art3mis | oh so those ARE new rules |
| 03:13.17 | Syzgyn | Bibi: http://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/info4858-Engravings.html? |
| 03:13.18 | kd3 | lol, sorry cog |
| 03:13.19 | art3mis | that seems kind of umm |
| 03:13.28 | art3mis | stupid |
| 03:13.53 | Shirik | hey |
| 03:13.55 | art3mis | zoot |
| 03:13.57 | Shirik | I haven't seen you here in a while |
| 03:14.04 | art3mis | yeah i no longer play wow |
| 03:14.06 | Bibi | Syzgyn: sounds like something I could use ... |
| 03:14.16 | art3mis | just saw someone post the rules on a diff channelw as curious how new they were |
| 03:14.26 | kd3 | got posted today |
| 03:14.36 | art3mis | and more importantly "what are they thinking" |
| 03:14.42 | art3mis | actually i skipped a step |
| 03:14.46 | art3mis | i saw the rules |
| 03:14.49 | art3mis | then i saw ckk |
| 03:14.55 | art3mis | then i remember all his donations links |
| 03:15.01 | art3mis | then i came in here |
| 03:15.02 | art3mis | ;) |
| 03:15.03 | cogwheel | ~lart3mis |
| 03:15.04 | purl | ACTION smacks art3mis upside the head just cuz |
| 03:15.08 | cogwheel | <3 |
| 03:15.10 | cogwheel | ltns |
| 03:15.14 | art3mis | forever improtalized |
| 03:15.19 | art3mis | immortalized |
| 03:15.32 | art3mis | someone actually asked me for permission to continue HKUI |
| 03:15.37 | art3mis | for 3.x |
| 03:15.41 | cogwheel | rofl |
| 03:15.49 | kd3 | ahahahahahaha |
| 03:16.00 | art3mis | i of course said godspeed! |
| 03:16.19 | art3mis | cuz we all know who unleashed that horror ;) |
| 03:16.32 | art3mis | actually been working on one for WAR |
| 03:16.39 | art3mis | cuz thats WAY funnier |
| 03:16.45 | cogwheel | heh |
| 03:16.59 | art3mis | murder death constant battle |
| 03:17.02 | art3mis | and hello kitty |
| 03:17.07 | art3mis | they fit together so well |
| 03:17.15 | art3mis | so what have you enrds been up to? |
| 03:17.18 | art3mis | nerds |
| 03:17.29 | kd3 | hk for wow is bad. hk for war is just 'cognitive dissonance' x 1048404 |
| 03:18.31 | art3mis | heh |
| 03:18.33 | art3mis | yeah |
| 03:18.49 | art3mis | my uber beta is hard on the eyes since most of WAR is dark |
| 03:19.04 | art3mis | but xpanels works nicely for it ;) |
| 03:19.16 | art3mis | oh i have good news |
| 03:19.19 | art3mis | since i was last here |
| 03:19.33 | art3mis | started working at a financial trading platofrm data supplier company |
| 03:19.39 | art3mis | almost a year ago |
| 03:19.48 | art3mis | this june i become thier senior linux nerd |
| 03:20.05 | art3mis | AND im mmoving into an amazing apt |
| 03:20.23 | cogwheel | god i'm glad i turned gray *before* this episode... |
| 03:20.30 | art3mis | 1400sqft 2floors with basement and a backyard, dual shower heads in the main bath with a 7' jacuzzi tub and washer/dryer in suite |
| 03:20.42 | cogwheel | not that I saw it coming, mind you :( |
| 03:20.51 | cogwheel | perks of being green: green text |
| 03:21.09 | art3mis | ? |
| 03:21.18 | cogwheel | no longer mvp :P |
| 03:21.26 | art3mis | oh |
| 03:21.35 | art3mis | heh yeah i can see a nice little shitstorm coming from that |
| 03:21.41 | art3mis | mostly from the carbonite people |
| 03:21.51 | art3mis | and the econ people |
| 03:22.00 | cogwheel | hmmm.... a worthy distraction from this mess |
| 03:22.04 | cogwheel | bsg finale |
| 03:22.09 | art3mis | heh |
| 03:22.27 | art3mis | i still think the glider mess was a bad thing |
| 03:22.29 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+v cog|bsg] by ChanServ |
| 03:22.29 | art3mis | awww |
| 03:22.37 | art3mis | you're leaving :( |
| 03:22.55 | cog|bsg | sry :( mrs is dying to see it :> |
| 03:23.33 | art3mis | shes way more important than me i wouldnt have even answered ;) |
| 03:23.57 | art3mis | hey shirik |
| 03:24.02 | art3mis | you still messing with nix? |
| 03:24.31 | Shirik | messing? |
| 03:24.41 | kd3 | whee, the thread of the day just got stickied |
| 03:25.55 | art3mis | yeah |
| 03:26.29 | art3mis | im looking for a nice nix program that will fucntion like atop but allow me to log time framed inode and disk io writes |
| 03:26.39 | art3mis | havent found anything neat yet |
| 03:26.49 | art3mis | wondering what you've got in yer bag of tricks |
| 03:28.13 | kd3 | ah, yay for the troll just digging himself deeper |
| 03:28.21 | kd3 | I'm looking forward to the flawed logic he comes up with next |
| 03:29.19 | DWSR | kd3: But you see that he's already won, as you've taken the bait. |
| 03:29.43 | DWSR | Anyone know why the hell the warlock hit cap is so high? |
| 03:29.53 | End | what? |
| 03:29.59 | art3mis | shirik: i started making a call log php thingy at work, so far it tracks logins auto timestamps entries and generates a unique code for it, allows for searching |
| 03:29.59 | kd3 | hardly, I'm just digging for more Qs for the FAQ |
| 03:30.00 | End | it's not any higher than any other class |
| 03:30.06 | kd3 | www.wowwiki.com/Spell_hit |
| 03:30.13 | End | unless you're talking about soulshatter |
| 03:30.16 | art3mis | cuz i couldnt find a decent one someone else had made ;) |
| 03:30.18 | End | and enslave demon |
| 03:30.25 | art3mis | so im apperantly getting good with php and mysql |
| 03:30.42 | art3mis | one of the devs said that i should take up c++ cuz in like a month i could help them heh |
| 03:31.18 | DWSR | End: I am talking about hard capping |
| 03:31.48 | End | so you're talking about roughly 3 spells? |
| 03:31.55 | DWSR | so yes, SoSh or ED |
| 03:32.14 | End | that's probably why they're changing suppression next patch |
| 03:32.19 | DWSR | Not really. |
| 03:32.25 | DWSR | Surpression still only gives me 368 |
| 03:32.29 | End | so? |
| 03:32.35 | DWSR | Mages and laser chickens get like 237 |
| 03:32.42 | End | they fixed mages |
| 03:32.47 | End | and laser chickens apply a debuff |
| 03:33.03 | End | if you can assume the laser chicken isn't retarded you can go with 237 or whatever too |
| 03:33.26 | End | (shadow priest or laser chicken) |
| 03:33.44 | art3mis | oh well abck to waruidev ciao! |
| 03:33.48 | *** part/#wowuidev art3mis (n=IceChat7@WoWUIDev/WoWI/HKUI/art3mis) |
| 03:34.21 | Ackis | wow fuck me I have 4 wow accounts |
| 03:34.30 | End | that sounds like too many |
| 03:34.43 | DWSR | heh, alright then |
| 03:34.47 | DWSR | Anyone for some TF2? |
| 03:38.45 | Ackis | hmm can't add D1 or WC2 to battle.net |
| 03:40.00 | AbsolutRayne | Odd question...is there an Addon that will show me the Crit % of my Offhand AND Mainhand? |
| 03:40.15 | AbsolutRayne | IE, if a Talent has a Crit Modifier |
| 03:40.17 | Ackis | probably, but it has a donation button so it'll get you banned kekeke |
| 03:40.23 | AbsolutRayne | like CQC |
| 03:41.41 | Ackis | so is anyone on the arena realm and is looking for 2 partners? |
| 03:42.31 | Adys | yep ackis |
| 03:42.34 | Adys | EU. :P |
| 03:42.43 | Adys | well looking for a priest anyway |
| 03:43.10 | Ackis | ugh damn you EUers |
| 03:43.46 | Ackis | my gf and I are on the realm but we need a third to get our games in |
| 03:55.49 | End | what the hell |
| 03:55.55 | End | hulu lets you rate their ads |
| 04:00.16 | jaxdahl | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:02.52 | Syzgyn | wtf, 24hr tag? |
| 04:03.54 | Syzgyn | Japan is weird. |
| 04:05.22 | AbsolutRayne | Armory is broken still? |
| 04:05.24 | AbsolutRayne | :/ |
| 04:08.50 | *** join/#wowuidev Funkeh` (n=funk@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/Ace3/BigWigs/funkeh) |
| 04:14.57 | Thunder_Child | . |
| 04:15.04 | Shirik | I'm on a 3v3 team and we're talking about who to add for a 5th person |
| 04:15.07 | Thunder_Child | so, is anyone bored and not have what to do? |
| 04:15.13 | Shirik | so just looking for names in /who |
| 04:15.35 | Shirik | someone says "Do you know ______? Is he good?" "Uh.... yeah? Isn't he your guild leader?" |
| 04:15.46 | Shirik | Apparently someone doesn't even know what guild he's in |
| 04:18.25 | Ackis | so i think linking all my accounts to the battle.net got them all banned |
| 04:18.35 | kd3 | !? |
| 04:18.49 | Ackis | (from the forums) |
| 04:19.58 | *** join/#wowuidev Beladona (n=chatzill@97.97.212.0) |
| 04:19.58 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o Beladona] by ChanServ |
| 04:20.04 | *** join/#wowuidev ilovemrdoe (n=chatzill@88-104-81-173.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) |
| 04:20.38 | Shirik | Ackis: It was all a trick to make you do that |
| 04:20.41 | Shirik | so they can ban more peoples |
| 04:21.45 | Ackis | Shirik: I know! bastards! |
| 04:23.40 | Thunder_Child | kd3, feel like fixing drdamage? |
| 04:24.03 | kd3 | not after today's bombshell |
| 04:24.15 | Shirik | Bibi: So were you going to give any info on exactly what you wanted? |
| 04:24.18 | Thunder_Child | how does that affect it? |
| 04:24.38 | kd3 | Shirik, he wants a mod that'll let him write notes for items so he doesn't have to resort to xml |
| 04:24.45 | kd3 | s/xml/excel/ |
| 04:24.50 | Anaralx2 | Ackis at least you can access your account. Mine is stuck as 'inactive' as today was my auto-resub day. Battle.net implementation + account renewal = fail. |
| 04:26.49 | Ackis | eh I was hoping I could post on the forums but at least it isn't giving me ban reason of linking pr0n heh |
| 04:27.52 | End | I'm a bit confused how linking multiple accounts works with the new b.net system |
| 04:27.59 | End | how does the WoW client tell the difference? |
| 04:28.39 | Ackis | end: brings up an option to choose your account |
| 04:28.46 | End | ah, ok |
| 04:29.48 | Arrowmaster | Ackis: maybe if the system lost the reason you were banned youll be able to convince them to unban you |
| 04:30.50 | Ackis | Arrowmaster: nah it has my more recent ban listed :P |
| 04:31.23 | Arrowmaster | .... |
| 04:31.40 | NeoTron | maybe just stop being a douche and not get banned? |
| 04:31.44 | Arrowmaster | you merged 3 or more accounts where atleast 2 of them were banned? |
| 04:32.20 | Beladona | I would venture to say that if you HAVE been or think you WILL be banned, don't merge accounts |
| 04:32.28 | Shirik | ~ping |
| 04:32.29 | purl | ~pong |
| 04:33.14 | Ackis | Arrowmaster: 4 accounts, 2 are forum banned :P none are ingame banned |
| 04:33.48 | Anaralx2 | Ackis did you voluntarily merge them, or battle.net do this automagically? |
| 04:34.13 | Beladona | it can't do it automagically |
| 04:34.36 | Ackis | Anaralx2: voluntary, i didn't have anything to lose, I'm already banned from the cesspool of the forums |
| 04:34.46 | Anaralx2 | Heh |
| 04:35.34 | Thunder_Child | W T F http://i.gizmodo.com/5177186/this-belly-button-ring-is-not-an-alien-appendage-nsfw |
| 04:46.20 | *** join/#wowuidev Druidicbeast (n=chatzill@pool-173-73-8-207.washdc.fios.verizon.net) |
| 04:50.53 | DWSR | Thunder_Child: That's pretty much what I'm thinking. |
| 04:51.55 | Fisker- | Ackis as i think they implied earlier that if one account were banned it would ban the whole account |
| 04:52.03 | Fisker- | Though you may ask them to unban you :P |
| 04:55.03 | DWSR | Does anyone know if PB4 works with raids yet? |
| 04:57.16 | Thunder_Child | i use it in reaids |
| 04:57.19 | Thunder_Child | raids |
| 04:57.27 | Thunder_Child | anything in particular? |
| 04:57.55 | Thunder_Child | for the past month tbh |
| 04:58.04 | kd3 | I can't find MTs/MAs, but raid members, raid targets, raid pets all work |
| 04:58.06 | *** part/#wowuidev Seerah (n=Ryan_L@adsl-177-35-196.mem.bellsouth.net) |
| 04:58.18 | Thunder_Child | dunno, dont use those |
| 04:58.39 | DWSR | kd3: Where's raid members? |
| 04:58.49 | Beladona | Thunder_Child: how does it compare to 3? |
| 04:58.49 | DWSR | I can't find an option to have those seperate from the party member frames. |
| 04:58.58 | DWSR | Beladona: Far and away better in terms of configuration |
| 04:59.10 | Beladona | will have to try it out |
| 04:59.52 | Ackis | what's the resil cap? |
| 05:00.22 | kd3 | DWSR, it's in the groups setting |
| 05:00.41 | kd3 | create a new groups unit, then in a lower dropdown choose raid |
| 05:01.04 | DWSR | ah, didn't know that you can create a new group |
| 05:01.44 | DWSR | Ackis: The damage reduction from a critical strike is capped at 33%, which equates to 1353 resilience at level 80. However, there is currently no cap on DoT reduction or critical strike chance reduction. |
| 05:04.36 | *** join/#wowuidev Funkeh` (n=funk@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/Ace3/BigWigs/funkeh) |
| 05:05.12 | *** join/#wowuidev Jamash (n=Jamash@75-25-130-215.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 05:08.12 | *** join/#wowuidev durcyn (n=durcyn@70.114.145.93) |
| 05:17.50 | Thunder_Child | Beladona, just as good or better |
| 05:22.26 | bleeter | so when blizz call them 'community managers'... do they really mean 'general forum manager'? |
| 05:24.12 | Fisker- | <-cannot be stopped |
| 05:25.22 | bleeter | Fisker-: :P |
| 05:25.44 | bleeter | just I see the CM's being as fkn useless to addon community management as they are to oceanic community management |
| 05:25.49 | bleeter | and that's some large chunks of fail |
| 05:26.37 | bleeter | funny thing is I regularly get quietly threadtened with forum account action if I point out how selfcentred those guys are and never really pay attention to community segments |
| 05:26.40 | bleeter | lololFAIL |
| 05:26.51 | bleeter | nice code, ncie bits of game... shame about the company |
| 05:27.26 | Arrowmaster | our 'CM' is in the channel right now, just i dont think hes allowed to talk to us when anything like this starts |
| 05:27.58 | Dagmar | Well, I don't envy him his 'job'. |
| 05:28.35 | Dagmar | The temptation to just scream "OMG stop the trolling already" would be too much for me |
| 05:28.40 | Antiarc | Man, that UI policy thread hasn't gotten any better. |
| 05:28.59 | DWSR | lol is it still going? |
| 05:29.05 | Antiarc | Yeah |
| 05:29.07 | Antiarc | It's up to 16 pages |
| 05:29.11 | DWSR | nice |
| 05:29.24 | ScytheBlade1 | So have we finally calmed down a bit? or is the same (justified) rant/rage still ongoing? |
| 05:29.29 | DWSR | Pft. |
| 05:29.31 | DWSR | MOAR RANTING.\ |
| 05:29.34 | DWSR | Or something |
| 05:29.35 | ScytheBlade1 | lol |
| 05:29.45 | Dagmar | Probably more newbwhines |
| 05:29.47 | Fisker- | true bleeter |
| 05:29.49 | bleeter | ScytheBlade1: I'm using it as an excuse to rant at CMs |
| 05:29.52 | Dagmar | People calling Blizz evil and so on |
| 05:29.59 | Fisker- | UI forum is like a wasteland |
| 05:30.03 | Fisker- | even more so on the EU forums |
| 05:30.09 | bleeter | 'coz it's the same treatment that Oceanics get paid by CMs |
| 05:30.19 | ScytheBlade1 | bleeter: no offense, but you'd use the sky being blue as a reason to do so ;) |
| 05:30.30 | End | ScytheBlade1: he hasn't already? |
| 05:30.30 | Antiarc | I've been AFK for most of the day, so my nerdrage is still in full swing. |
| 05:30.37 | bleeter | ScytheBlade1: but... it.. *IS*.. blue! |
| 05:30.39 | ScytheBlade1 | Antiarc: /nod |
| 05:30.48 | ScytheBlade1 | bleeter: exactly. Now go forth and troll ;) |
| 05:31.14 | bleeter | ScytheBlade1: said my bit in here, and in the forum post. |
| 05:31.15 | Dagmar | It looks like *all* troll arguments so far. |
| 05:31.35 | Dagmar | Am I going to see anything different from that if I sift all the way from pages 11 to 4? |
| 05:31.37 | Antiarc | "I am discontinuing development of and have removed Outfitter, Group Calendar, Mappy and all other addons I authored from public download. This policy is so offensive in so many ways and I refuse to support Blizzard or their products any longer. " |
| 05:31.37 | ScytheBlade1 | Antiarc: I personally really hate the specifics of what they did, but agree at a minimum with their vision for the game - I really don't want to see in-game ad supported addons being the future |
| 05:31.47 | Antiarc | Heh. A few more of those and we'll start seeing fireworks. |
| 05:31.52 | ScytheBlade1 | Antiarc: nah, don't do that quite yet |
| 05:32.21 | ScytheBlade1 | Antiarc: ping every author you know of that has an influential addon in any degree, get them to do the same, and then post it on the UI/M board, in a relatively peaceful manner |
| 05:32.23 | Antiarc | ScytheBlade1: See, I don't know. Ads haven't been a problem for the last four years. Why would they be now? |
| 05:32.42 | ScytheBlade1 | Antiarc: well, you've been kinda afk recently. Carbonite started doing just that within the past week I believe |
| 05:32.46 | Dagmar | They've not started being semi-obnoxious in-your-face ads at this point |
| 05:32.47 | End | I don't know of any addon that had "real" ads until now |
| 05:32.49 | Dagmar | ...until now |
| 05:32.52 | Antiarc | Yeah, I know that it's been doing that |
| 05:32.54 | Beladona | its called evolution |
| 05:32.57 | Antiarc | But still, so? Just don't use carbonite. |
| 05:33.01 | ScytheBlade1 | Right |
| 05:33.03 | ScytheBlade1 | And I agree entirely |
| 05:33.04 | Beladona | people come up with an idea, and it evolves |
| 05:33.07 | Antiarc | Telling authors they can't charge for their addons is WAY out of line |
| 05:33.15 | Antiarc | That's utterly outside of the scope of WoW |
| 05:33.15 | ScytheBlade1 | I would agree with that too |
| 05:33.28 | ScytheBlade1 | I agree with their blatent advertising clause |
| 05:33.32 | Antiarc | The obfuscation clause makes sense for security reasons, and I would support that one |
| 05:33.38 | ScytheBlade1 | Yeah same |
| 05:33.41 | Antiarc | Eh. Blatant advertising doesn't bother me. |
| 05:33.45 | Antiarc | If the ads bother me, I nuke the mod. |
| 05:33.55 | ScytheBlade1 | Right, in your case |
| 05:34.00 | ScytheBlade1 | Flip the POV around to a designer |
| 05:34.04 | Dagmar | Frankly I wonder if letting the CS people tell every person who had their account stolen that they suspect it was a "rogue addon" that leaked it may have had something to do with it too |
| 05:34.05 | ScytheBlade1 | Their game is being spammed with ads |
| 05:34.18 | ScytheBlade1 | ("designer" aka WoW designer) |
| 05:34.19 | bleeter | ingame advertising is wrong, but a single line, or frame, on load seeking donations? |
| 05:34.30 | bleeter | i mean, what if I were seeking donations to.. cancer research.. or something? |
| 05:34.35 | Antiarc | You can't have the game spammed up with ads unless users are complicit in enabling those ad channels. |
| 05:34.42 | ScytheBlade1 | Yeah, I'd stick with that too bleeter. Donations, as we have seen them, are fine |
| 05:34.46 | Dagmar | bleeter: I suspect that quite likely they might change to allow mention of how to donate to the chat frame onload |
| 05:34.47 | Arrowmaster | Dagmar: what? |
| 05:34.52 | ScytheBlade1 | Antiarc: oh come on, you know as well as I that people are stupid ;) |
| 05:34.54 | Antiarc | It's not like the base WoW UI enables spamming, except via mail which is already verboten |
| 05:35.15 | Antiarc | ScytheBlade1: I know that there tends to be a huge herd mentality away from an addon when it is deemed "bad" |
| 05:35.21 | Beladona | I personally believe that they don't really have a problem with the simple donate buttons, or things like that. But the rule had to be vague, otherwise it would be MUCH more an issue of "find the loophole" |
| 05:35.31 | bleeter | well the 'obvious' thing is... in the new UI thing for settings... have some default 'about' structure.. where addon authors can add a URL for people to seek donations |
| 05:35.32 | Dagmar | Arrowmaster: Every single person I've known whose had thier account snatched at one point had the CS rep tell them a rogue addon probably did them in. Several of them asked me if I'd heard anything along those lines happening. |
| 05:35.37 | bleeter | and have that as the ONLY place it's allowed |
| 05:35.38 | Antiarc | It just takes a few people to get the ball rolling away from an addon to an alternative. In the case of addons with ads embedded, it would die pretty quickly. |
| 05:35.45 | Antiarc | Dagmar: Heh...wow. |
| 05:35.47 | bleeter | that way, everyone has the same advert, etc. etc. etc. |
| 05:35.50 | ScytheBlade1 | Antiarc: right. I'd agree there too |
| 05:36.05 | Antiarc | I don't think there is a real-world case supporting this policy. |
| 05:36.08 | Dagmar | I've *looked* and I haven't found anything like that going on with the exception of the sites fishing for search terms that ship out viruses in *everything* |
| 05:36.16 | Antiarc | It makes sense in abstract, but it is a Very Bad Thing in practice. |
| 05:36.29 | ScytheBlade1 | Antiarc: I still say that we should be focusing this RRRRRRAAAAAAAAGGGGGEEEEEEEE into getting a list of authors together, a list of the addons that they will no longer support, and then posting that simply on the UI/M boards |
| 05:36.33 | ScytheBlade1 | ;) |
| 05:36.35 | Dagmar | ...but the for-pay addons were starting to attract the RMT people, and that's not good. |
| 05:36.44 | bleeter | i still say blizz provide an 'about' frame and 'we' fill it in, that way no excess adverts beyond what Blizz determine |
| 05:36.51 | Antiarc | ScytheBlade1: I'm going to sleep on it, but I may well work towards that. |
| 05:37.03 | Antiarc | I have less than no incentive to update Chatter and SexyMap for 3.1 right now |
| 05:37.10 | ScytheBlade1 | Antiarc: please do. I think it would be the single most effective way of getting the word out |
| 05:37.15 | Antiarc | And I could flip a bit on the license and make them unforkable in a heartbeat. |
| 05:37.29 | Dagmar | bleeter: I think the about box library with the x-donation feature may already be on the safe side of the new requirement |
| 05:37.49 | bleeter | Dagmar: Blizz should provide the API to fill it in |
| 05:37.59 | bleeter | that way no one's bitching about someone's bigger than someone else's and raaar raaar |
| 05:38.00 | Dagmar | You have to actually click some stuff to see the donation information--it would be hard to construe that as a solicitation. |
| 05:38.16 | Dagmar | It might take until Monday to get someone to formally cough up an elaboration on the policy tho |
| 05:38.47 | bleeter | yar, hot politics tip #101.. never launch potentially bad news on a firday unless there's brilliant news to cover it with |
| 05:39.11 | Antiarc | I'm still trying to figure out how to work the fact that I've contributed to the WoW UI's core into this argument :P |
| 05:39.25 | Dagmar | Like, I think addons spewing begs and completely for-pay addons is not a good thing, but simply bundling how to donate to the author and not pestering the user about it more than an absolute minimum shouldmn |
| 05:39.31 | Dagmar | er shouldn't be veboten |
| 05:39.41 | DWSR | Antiarc: :( |
| 05:39.44 | DWSR | I <3 SexyMap |
| 05:39.56 | Antiarc | I think that pay-for addons are a good thing. If they're bad, nobody buys them. If they're good, free alternatives are pretty much always quickly developed. |
| 05:39.58 | bleeter | Dagmar: it's within blizz's control to dictate how solicitations could be displayed... /shrug |
| 05:40.07 | bleeter | so it kinda gets back to |
| 05:40.13 | bleeter | is this *really* a microsoft thing? |
| 05:40.19 | Dagmar | Antiarc: You mean like how Outfitter has basically demonstrated itself to be something people felt they needed and is probably a major reason such functionality is in the PTR client now? |
| 05:40.20 | bleeter | with the new bnet and 'ingame adverts'? |
| 05:40.27 | bleeter | MS pissed they won't get a cut of the ads? |
| 05:40.32 | DWSR | Dagmar: Yeah. |
| 05:40.43 | *** join/#wowuidev Mooninaut (n=Jamash@75-25-130-215.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 05:40.46 | DWSR | That's so nice. I'm still going to be using Outfitter though, since Outfitter will > whatever blizz makes |
| 05:40.53 | Beladona | I don't like making people pay for addons I make. But that is a personal thing. I wasn't about to go on a tirade about other people doing it. The thing that irked me was teh ads, and offering to sell ad space |
| 05:41.02 | Antiarc | The author of Outfitter just pulled all his copies from public distribution |
| 05:41.03 | Antiarc | So uh |
| 05:41.08 | Beladona | which is probably all that needed fixing |
| 05:41.23 | DWSR | Antiarc: What? |
| 05:41.25 | DWSR | WHAT? |
| 05:41.39 | bleeter | Beladona: yup, put in an 'about' box that gives a link to a website About, that has adverts |
| 05:42.03 | Dagmar | If the authors of the non-nagging addons start pulling a lot of stuff, Blizz is going to have to define this better |
| 05:42.06 | bleeter | Beladona: don't allow addons to load unless they actually ahve this 'about' info foo, too... for (C) purposes indicating it's not blizz ui, etc. |
| 05:42.54 | bleeter | hang on |
| 05:42.58 | bleeter | why am I giving blizz advice? |
| 05:43.05 | End | seriously |
| 05:43.13 | End | get back to QQing about how the sky is falling! |
| 05:43.14 | bleeter | I need to survive and eat... so.. more $$ for me.. they can pay me for Obvious Suggestions |
| 05:43.15 | DWSR | Antiarc: I thought the author of Outfitter was fixing his thing for 3.1? |
| 05:43.19 | Dagmar | bleeter: Because unfortunately they dropped this particular bomb at the start of the weekend |
| 05:43.20 | bleeter | End: but it's BLUE |
| 05:43.23 | End | sorry |
| 05:43.27 | End | get back to QQing about how the sky is blue! |
| 05:43.30 | End | I forgot |
| 05:43.31 | End | :P |
| 05:43.33 | ScytheBlade1 | It'll be interesting to see what this becomes within a week |
| 05:43.33 | Dagmar | ...when all of management is probably trying not to think about work, so this just ends up stewing |
| 05:43.58 | End | ScytheBlade1: I'm curious as well. |
| 05:44.36 | Antiarc | DWSR: He just posted that he's pulling all his work in protest of the policy. |
| 05:45.02 | Beladona | something tells me that an addon ceasing to exist isn't going to stop them |
| 05:45.10 | DWSR | Oh wow. |
| 05:45.11 | DWSR | That sucks |
| 05:45.12 | Beladona | especially if someone else makes a new one |
| 05:45.15 | DWSR | indeed |
| 05:45.23 | DWSR | Or the functionality has been folded into the default UI |
| 05:45.26 | Dagmar | Beladona: Think of it like a canary issue |
| 05:45.40 | DWSR | It would be nice if they hadn't nerfed Aff but instead buffed the UI to include a DoT timer. |
| 05:46.05 | Dagmar | Beladona: From what I can tell, all of that guys addons (or at least the ones of them that I use) wouldn't be falling afoul of the new policy |
| 05:46.37 | Dagmar | You can't really say he's throwing a tantrum because of loss of revenue |
| 05:46.42 | ScytheBlade1 | oh wow |
| 05:46.45 | Beladona | no I understand that |
| 05:46.48 | ScytheBlade1 | cog nuked his stickies |
| 05:46.53 | bleeter | Beladona: that's great and all, but we know the default UI will be (a) late (b) buggy (c) require one full . build rotation to even contemplate fixing (ie, 6 months later) :P |
| 05:46.55 | Beladona | its a statement |
| 05:47.07 | Dagmar | Yeah, so you have to consider *why* he made it |
| 05:47.16 | bleeter | er s/beladona/dwsr/ |
| 05:47.38 | Beladona | I was just saying that I have a feeling Blizzard isn't going to see a bunch of addons ceasing development as a prompt for change |
| 05:47.40 | DWSR | bleeter: Yeah, I know |
| 05:47.50 | Dagmar | A lot of the carping in that UI thread isn't being very clear, but it sure seems like people have gotten it into their heads to interpret the policy to mean authors are entirely forbidden to make money at all |
| 05:48.03 | Dagmar | Some of that could be astroturfing, and a lot of it is definitely confusion |
| 05:48.12 | Beladona | which isn't true, and I have ideas on how things could be improved |
| 05:48.16 | Beladona | for the authors |
| 05:48.20 | Dagmar | ...but Blizz not saying anything more about it publicly is kinda letting that fire get nice and big |
| 05:48.25 | bleeter | Beladona: you mean, they'll go for code operational release now over business reason release? |
| 05:48.30 | Beladona | but it would be things the authors, and distribution sites would have to do |
| 05:48.45 | bleeter | 'coz an addon author turning around a fix in 1 day is a lot easier than blizz's wazoo build system crap they have right now |
| 05:48.49 | Dagmar | ...and I kinda doubt any of the CMs or blues are authorized to make any specific statements about it to try to clear things up |
| 05:49.07 | Beladona | for instance, what is the most cited reason for why donation links on the website don't work? |
| 05:49.19 | Dagmar | bleeter: You talk about buisness reason releases, but did you ever play one of Sony's games? |
| 05:49.29 | Beladona | Dagmar: amen |
| 05:49.44 | Dagmar | You have NO idea how effed up that can really get |
| 05:49.58 | bleeter | that's the 'it's ok to be shithouse at something because someone else is more shithouse' excuse |
| 05:50.23 | Dagmar | Blizz has only gone as far as what I'd consider to be slightly overexuberantly releasing something a bit early because someone in QA slipped up |
| 05:50.26 | bleeter | which is fine for business purposes |
| 05:50.50 | Beladona | I have never met a game that was bugless |
| 05:51.00 | Dagmar | bleeter: Not just "sh*thouse" but a forty-seater with raised ceilings and unicorn fountains" |
| 05:51.01 | Beladona | you can always expect bugs |
| 05:51.18 | bleeter | but when you're relying on volunteers to stop you appearing from being quite so shithose, it's does one well to not do your turds on them.. or something |
| 05:51.48 | bleeter | anyways, naxx25 beckons. interesting situation, was always bound to arise. have fun sorting it out. :) |
| 05:52.21 | Dagmar | Beladona: As to the that particular "website links don't work" argument, I have *yet* to find someone making a valid argument |
| 05:52.24 | Beladona | no one bit on my query |
| 05:52.50 | End | which? |
| 05:52.51 | Beladona | the biggest issue in my mind is that not enough people rely on manually going to your website |
| 05:52.55 | End | oh |
| 05:52.56 | bleeter | Beladona: soz, website links? yeah, like EULA/ToS, no one ever reads them |
| 05:52.59 | Dagmar | QH's author is as close as it got, and he's probably really close to the edge of what would be permissible |
| 05:53.05 | Beladona | which is partially due to auto-updaters |
| 05:53.16 | Dagmar | Cuz seriously, if I can barely notice it's there, it should be good |
| 05:53.25 | End | even if there's a download link on the website they went to, people probably ignore it |
| 05:53.28 | bleeter | Beladona: actually, more correctly.. different cultures approach the reading of EULA/ToS/Donation links differently |
| 05:53.47 | Beladona | so maybe it will take distribution sites blocking everything but their own updaters, and then implementing a system that shows donation links both on the website, AND in the updater |
| 05:53.54 | Dagmar | Beladona: Arguing that it's because of auto-updaters is a failing argument; |
| 05:54.04 | Beladona | its not a perfect solution |
| 05:54.15 | Beladona | it won't give you money 100% of the time |
| 05:54.28 | Beladona | if someone wasn't going to pay, they wouldn't have anyway |
| 05:54.31 | Dagmar | Those people are trying to argue that since they can't be bothered to restrict downloads on their websites to protect them against download managers, that Blizz should let them put ads right into the client |
| 05:54.43 | Beladona | no |
| 05:54.49 | Beladona | I am not making that claim |
| 05:54.51 | Dagmar | If Curse cared, they could lock out Wowmatrix tomorrow. |
| 05:54.56 | Beladona | I am offering ideas that will help, in LIGHT of the change |
| 05:55.24 | Dagmar | ...and I'm not saying that as some troll-posting kid on the forums, I'm saying it as a long-experienced admin and coder who could do it in about an hour with Apache, no problems. |
| 05:55.32 | Shirik | Dagmar |
| 05:55.39 | Beladona | oh I know they could |
| 05:55.41 | Shirik | You really think it's that easy to lock out wowmatrix? |
| 05:55.43 | End | it'd certainly help if CC and the wowi updater (if Shirik ever finishes it) showed donate links in a visible place |
| 05:55.44 | Mooninaut | *now* I'm affected |
| 05:55.56 | Shirik | End: Actually, been discussing that today |
| 05:56.23 | Dagmar | Shirik: Yeah actually I do. Wowmatrix can't afford to distribute new binaries every day. |
| 05:56.31 | Cairenn | we're already working on ways to make author donation options bigger and better on wowi |
| 05:56.39 | Shirik | Dagmar: Give me a good way to block it and I'm sure we'll be glad to implement it. However, I am willing to bet we've tried most of what you would think of |
| 05:56.40 | End | well, that'll help\ |
| 05:56.58 | Antiarc | Shirik: Just block the Wowmatrix user agent, duh! :V |
| 05:57.02 | Shadowed | Shirik did that idea of using an image from a few months ago not work? |
| 05:57.05 | End | Antiarc: lol |
| 05:57.06 | Shirik | Antiarc: lol. |
| 05:57.18 | Shirik | Shadowed: actually, never implemented it. We really should try, just got sidetracked. |
| 05:57.19 | Zootfizzle | Can I LOL at that? :) |
| 05:57.30 | Beladona | it won't be the same as always getting money. But if someone like the addon, they will donate. I see it a lot with one of my projects |
| 05:57.32 | End | Zootfizzle: you better hide! |
| 05:57.44 | Beladona | I always get pms saying "I donated" |
| 05:57.52 | Shadowed | Zootfizzle, are you cackling madly at developers over your piles of evil gotten money over this! |
| 05:57.55 | Shirik | I've been a little worried about how it might break prefetching, Shadowed |
| 05:58.07 | Shadowed | give them an email to complain at |
| 05:58.10 | Shadowed | then redirect it to wowmatrixs |
| 05:59.26 | ScytheBlade1 | Zootfizzle: curious, how much of the channel have you read today? |
| 05:59.40 | ScytheBlade1 | I mean I'd assume you were hard at work for most of the day ;) |
| 05:59.46 | bleeter | prolly only the crap I've spoken about for lolz |
| 05:59.50 | Dagmar | Shirik: I'll scribble up a list tomorrow while I'm at work |
| 05:59.54 | End | he read what I wrote and then ran away! ...if he values his life |
| 05:59.56 | End | :P |
| 06:00.03 | Jamash | poor zoot |
| 06:00.38 | *** join/#wowuidev Torhal (n=callahan@74-130-66-145.dhcp.insightbb.com) |
| 06:01.03 | Shadowed | I'd imagine that theres really no way to block WoWMatrix without inconveniencing at least one type of user anyway |
| 06:01.11 | End | yeah |
| 06:01.30 | bleeter | i still say some standard advert xml format so addon downloaders can parse customised ads, and this is part of the 'about' box in game. |
| 06:01.32 | Cairenn | I highly doubt he (Zoot) is allowed to say anything one way or the other guys, by order of the Blizz Legal team |
| 06:01.38 | Antiarc | I suspect so too |
| 06:01.39 | bleeter | yup coz you can't always block sdtuff like matrix |
| 06:01.41 | Cairenn | so please don't pester him about it |
| 06:01.42 | Antiarc | So we don't ask :) |
| 06:01.51 | Cairenn | :) |
| 06:01.59 | Dagmar | Well, users trying to download addons on their old Mac SE with Mosaic 1.0 should probably be beaten senseless |
| 06:02.01 | bleeter | so addon authors will get screwed no matter what unless blizz CAN put a simple default about sctructure in |
| 06:02.17 | bleeter | and then addon managers can parse said addon's usage of struct to display advert... |
| 06:02.26 | bleeter | ... bah trying to do summonses n type is fail |
| 06:02.33 | End | Cairenn: you make it sound like there will be a firing squad waiting for him |
| 06:02.37 | End | if he messes up |
| 06:02.44 | NightHawkTheSane | Dagmar: what have you got against my SE?! |
| 06:02.50 | Shadowed | he probably has a trained assassin next to him |
| 06:02.53 | Shadowed | making sure he doesn't leak anything |
| 06:02.55 | Antiarc | End, when it comes to legal, it's better to say nothing if there's any doubt, heh. |
| 06:02.58 | Cairenn | hehehe, well, maybe so ... as in "fired" |
| 06:03.00 | Beladona | ninja monkeys |
| 06:03.02 | End | lol |
| 06:03.04 | Jamash | if we're not supposed to bug zoot about legal can we bug zoot about 3.1.0 issues? |
| 06:03.10 | Dagmar | NightHawkTheSane: It wasn't meant to use the interwebs. I'm sorry you had to hear it from a stranger. |
| 06:03.25 | NightHawkTheSane | Jamash: i'm sure zoot would like it it if we just didn't bug him ;) |
| 06:03.31 | Jamash | 'cause I'm not seeing much zoot in Iriel's 3.1.0 API thread |
| 06:03.39 | bleeter | how about we bug zoot about dancing furbolg form and customisable dance moves in 3.2?? |
| 06:03.40 | Shadowed | monkeys can't read |
| 06:03.44 | Shadowed | too much risk they would fire for no reason |
| 06:03.52 | bleeter | WTB DANCING FURBOLG RP SHOP |
| 06:04.07 | NightHawkTheSane | Dagmar: BAH! next you'll tell me gopher is a dead protocol! |
| 06:04.08 | Beladona | people in my guild keep dropping the "3.1 this tuesday!", and then they wonder why I say "I hope not" |
| 06:04.10 | Zootfizzle | Jamash: Yes you can, but consider that where I'm at it's 11 PM on a Friday :) |
| 06:04.11 | bleeter | :P |
| 06:04.12 | Dagmar | NightHawkTheSane: Well, it is |
| 06:04.15 | Jamash | hehe |
| 06:04.27 | Shadowed | 11 PM is the best time to work |
| 06:04.32 | NightHawkTheSane | Zootfizzle: which raises the question, you seem unfortunately sober. |
| 06:04.36 | Shadowed | it's right at that time where nobody will bug you |
| 06:04.40 | Shadowed | but not late enough that you wake up wondering what you were doing |
| 06:04.44 | Zootfizzle | Maybe I have a lot of practice! |
| 06:04.44 | End | NightHawkTheSane: you don't know that |
| 06:04.59 | jaxdahl | anyone else not been getting the verification email for their battle.net account? |
| 06:05.00 | End | I lose my ability to sit in chairs before I lose my ability to type |
| 06:05.00 | NightHawkTheSane | End: well i said "seem" ;) |
| 06:05.16 | ScytheBlade1 | lol |
| 06:05.21 | NightHawkTheSane | Dagmar: ... /cry :P |
| 06:05.22 | bleeter | Zootfizzle: grats on bnet integration :) |
| 06:05.23 | Dagmar | Sad that someone had to make a level 1 account to speak sanity on that UI thread |
| 06:05.39 | Antiarc | Dagmar: Eh? |
| 06:05.39 | ScytheBlade1 | Been stealing some of GC's gin, have you? |
| 06:05.42 | bleeter | yay for summonseses |
| 06:05.42 | Dagmar | or felt they had to make one anyway |
| 06:05.46 | Beladona | wisdom diminishes in direct proportion with level, it seems |
| 06:05.57 | Shadowed | wisdom diminishes in proportion to posts made in a topic |
| 06:06.04 | Beladona | good point |
| 06:06.05 | End | wisdom diminishes. |
| 06:06.05 | Shadowed | after around a page, wisdom falls off a cliff |
| 06:06.08 | NightHawkTheSane | ^^ |
| 06:06.09 | Dagmar | Antiarc: On page 15, someone posting as 'Karred' says simply " |
| 06:06.10 | Dagmar | What add on authers can do is just place a donate button in options. As long as youre not asking for a donation it should be fine |
| 06:06.24 | Antiarc | Karred's been trolling hardcore for 10 pages |
| 06:06.38 | ScytheBlade1 | Karred needs to be banhammered and postnuked |
| 06:06.47 | Dagmar | " which is pretty straightforward, but unfortunately he's saying this to a thread filled with people who just ain't listening because they're too busy trying to post angrily |
| 06:06.48 | ScytheBlade1 | He has managed to contribute nothing but inflammatory posts |
| 06:06.50 | Shadowed | it's impossible to ge tbanned on WoW forums |
| 06:06.55 | Shadowed | short of saying he's going to go kill someone at Blizzard |
| 06:07.02 | Dagmar | Wait, so it's a regular troll posting *moderate, cool-headed comments* in a thread? |
| 06:07.16 | Dagmar | That should be a warning sign all by itself |
| 06:07.26 | Antiarc | Shadowed: My realm forums are overmoderated |
| 06:07.27 | ScytheBlade1 | er |
| 06:07.29 | ScytheBlade1 | hmm |
| 06:07.33 | Antiarc | If you report someone, they will get banned, period |
| 06:07.38 | Antiarc | The mods don't even read reports, they just ban people |
| 06:07.51 | ScytheBlade1 | Then again, considering Karred, probably for the better |
| 06:07.57 | Shadowed | what thread? |
| 06:08.08 | Antiarc | I've had a bunch of guildmates get banned for utterly benign posts because someone else had it out for my guild, and started reporting every post my guildmates made |
| 06:08.39 | Shadowed | odd, only time I've seen someone banned really was being horribly obvious |
| 06:08.40 | Dagmar | ScytheBlade1: That thread needs more people saying "Nobody panic, let management get back to the office on monday and soak in the objections" |
| 06:08.40 | ScytheBlade1 | Let me just say that a thread that WAS 10+ pages no longer exists |
| 06:08.51 | Shadowed | swearing a lot, posting personal info, etc |
| 06:08.53 | ScytheBlade1 | Oh no wait |
| 06:08.55 | ScytheBlade1 | Bah, sorry |
| 06:08.56 | ScytheBlade1 | It was stuck |
| 06:08.59 | End | ScytheBlade1: fail |
| 06:09.04 | Shadowed | then again it's kind of hard to tell sometimes since people have alts |
| 06:09.09 | Shadowed | and 50 alt accounts |
| 06:09.17 | ScytheBlade1 | Considering the sheer trolling I kinda hoped it had been deleted |
| 06:10.20 | Antiarc | You really need to be able to click someone's name and see their alts in the armory |
| 06:10.25 | DWSR | ^ this |
| 06:10.30 | Antiarc | That would reduce the idiocy on the WoW forums by at least 30% |
| 06:10.34 | Shadowed | never happen |
| 06:10.39 | Antiarc | I know, but it should |
| 06:10.45 | ScytheBlade1 | I have honestly never been in support of that until I paged over this thread, haha |
| 06:10.45 | DWSR | It absolutely needs to\ |
| 06:10.45 | Shadowed | remember the whining from people being able to see your wealth stats |
| 06:10.54 | Shadowed | it would be multiplied by like 5000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000x if you could see alts |
| 06:11.04 | Antiarc | Let them whine |
| 06:11.09 | Antiarc | A little accountability would be nice |
| 06:11.21 | Shadowed | thats what EJ is for |
| 06:11.24 | Antiarc | To illustrate: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/ |
| 06:11.24 | Dagmar | There's *way* too much of this "[...]Now you tell those people you cant recieve any compensation [...] |
| 06:11.37 | End | Antiarc: fuckwad theory? |
| 06:11.40 | Antiarc | Dagmar: Yeah, too many people are misconstruing it. |
| 06:11.41 | Antiarc | End: Indeed. |
| 06:11.44 | Dagmar | There's *way* too much of this "[...]Now you tell those people you cant recieve any compensation [...]" going on in that thread being used as an argument, because it's simply false. |
| 06:11.44 | Shadowed | yea I knew it was that |
| 06:11.46 | End | I thought so :P |
| 06:12.03 | Fisker- | omg it's Antiarc |
| 06:12.15 | End | it's true, and obvious, but a good thing to post sometimes :P |
| 06:12.21 | Fisker- | shitcock |
| 06:12.26 | Dagmar | I like Maul's explanation. :) |
| 06:12.26 | Antiarc | Fisker-: Turns out that stomping over my rights as a copyright holder gets me irate :P |
| 06:13.27 | Dagmar | I'll bet their legal team pushed parts of this new policy without going beyond applying the stuff they somewhat have to do now that they've won the Glider case |
| 06:13.45 | cog|bsg | yeah, i have a feeling they had no idea what mods *really* are |
| 06:13.50 | ScytheBlade1 | I think linking it with Glider is a biiiiiit of a stretch :P |
| 06:13.53 | Jamash | Glider has nothing to do with addons, though |
| 06:13.57 | Dagmar | You can't very well squish one guy on the legal basis of cloning intellectual property, and then not do so to everyone else |
| 06:14.26 | Antiarc | The Glider decision was a pretty horrible thing for software development in general :/ |
| 06:14.34 | Jamash | and as much as I detest botting I wish Blizzard had lost the Glider case |
| 06:14.34 | Antiarc | As glad as I am to see Glider gone |
| 06:14.40 | Fisker- | Jamash as far as i know they won on the fact that Glider breached the DMCA by earning money on their IP |
| 06:14.41 | Antiarc | Jamash: Exactly. |
| 06:14.42 | Dagmar | It was necessary to get that gone tho |
| 06:14.57 | Antiarc | Glider bots were fun though |
| 06:14.58 | Dagmar | Fisker-: That's what I understand of it from the summaries |
| 06:15.06 | Jamash | I'm for freedom to write software, use software, etc |
| 06:15.07 | Antiarc | They don't turn around to face their mobs automatically |
| 06:15.14 | Antiarc | They assume that a ranged pull results in the mob running to face you |
| 06:15.15 | ScytheBlade1 | ha, yeah |
| 06:15.27 | Antiarc | I used to farm them by pulling aggro on one of their mobs, dragging it around behind, and vanishing |
| 06:15.33 | Jamash | nice |
| 06:15.36 | Antiarc | The mob would return to beat on the bot, and the bot would just stand there like an idiot |
| 06:15.56 | Antiarc | Amusing as hell at 3 AM. |
| 06:16.02 | ScytheBlade1 | I used to let bots do the grinding for me, while I waited on the GM ticket to go through |
| 06:16.11 | ScytheBlade1 | Tag them quick enough and they'd kill it for you |
| 06:16.27 | Dagmar | So they made this argument to the court against Glider, but if the Glider dude wants to appeal, he could easily use the fact that Blizzard allows Zygor's guide and several of these other guides to modify and dilute Blizzards IP in-game... |
| 06:16.35 | Dagmar | ...to make their lives hell. |
| 06:16.51 | Jamash | Dagmar: Huh? How do leveling guides "dilute Blizzard's IP"? |
| 06:16.57 | Antiarc | In the same way Glider does |
| 06:16.58 | Antiarc | Heh. |
| 06:17.32 | Jamash | they're not much different from buying the official strategy guide and propping it next to your computer |
| 06:17.40 | Jamash | or an unofficial strategy guide |
| 06:17.41 | Dagmar | Jamash: Carbonite ships with data pretty much culled straight from the game. Locations of NPCs, names, etc |
| 06:17.42 | Jamash | or WoWWiki |
| 06:18.11 | Dagmar | QH probably doesn't risk much there because it just takes what's in your log and tries to work out something on the spot |
| 06:18.11 | Jamash | Dagmar: Blizzard obviously doesn't have a problem with that or Thottbot, Wowhead, etc would have been shut down long ago |
| 06:18.24 | *** part/#wowuidev Zootfizzle (n=Zootfizz@WoWUIDev/Blizz/Zooty-Zoot-Zoot) |
| 06:18.26 | Dagmar | Jamash: They, however, are free to access. |
| 06:18.33 | Jamash | ah, there's the rub |
| 06:18.35 | Dagmar | Yep. |
| 06:18.46 | Fisker- | zootfizzle down! |
| 06:18.59 | ScytheBlade1 | Fisker-: do you blame him? :P |
| 06:19.05 | Dagmar | I think they're very carefully trying to avoid stepping on the free stuff and simply trying to keep the level of RMT influence down |
| 06:19.09 | Jamash | The problem is that this policy is about all addons, not just those that include Blizzard copyrighted stuff |
| 06:19.31 | Jamash | Obviously Blizzard can do anything they want to any addon that includes material copyright Blizzard |
| 06:19.44 | Jamash | But what about addons that have no Blizzard copyrighted material? |
| 06:20.04 | Dagmar | Jamesh: I can see legal passing these guidelines down without doing enough looking at the problem. |
| 06:20.15 | Jamash | yeah |
| 06:20.44 | Dagmar | ...and I can see it taking management having to go back to legal to get them to change or publicly elaborate on it |
| 06:21.48 | Dagmar | But after the Glider verdict there's some stuff they likely feel they have to formally move against now |
| 06:21.52 | Jamash | bleh |
| 06:22.58 | Jamash | This is part of a bad trend in the US copyright system as a whole |
| 06:23.24 | Dagmar | If it means having to forbid pay-only addons to keep the RMT influence away, well, it'll suck for people who wanted to make a living at it but we don't legalize crack becasue some people might be able to not ruin themselves with it |
| 06:23.45 | Fisker- | legal departments are funny |
| 06:23.47 | Jamash | uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh |
| 06:23.57 | Fisker- | On the EU google aren't allowed to index their site |
| 06:24.06 | Jamash | Who's site, Blizzard? |
| 06:24.16 | Jamash | s/Who's/whose |
| 06:24.21 | Fisker- | WoW's but probably the same policy for all sites |
| 06:24.41 | Shirik | Fisker- is funny |
| 06:24.42 | Fisker- | nah |
| 06:24.45 | Jamash | well, that's their right as owners of the server |
| 06:24.45 | Fisker- | it's different on the US |
| 06:25.00 | Jamash | but we're talking about addons hosted on non-blizzard sites |
| 06:25.04 | Fisker- | infact last i remember the US didn't have a policy on it |
| 06:25.07 | Jamash | that blizzard really has no legal right to control |
| 06:25.37 | Dagmar | Jamash: So even as it stands now the policy doesn't affect anyone who wasn't out and out selling their addons |
| 06:26.13 | Jamash | I sort of agree with Cogwheel, that it affects everyone's freedoms even if they aren't exercising them. |
| 06:26.43 | Fisker- | http://www.wow-europe.com/en/legal/termsofuseweb.html |
| 06:26.49 | Fisker- | <PROTECTED> |
| 06:27.08 | Fisker- | <PROTECTED> |
| 06:27.20 | End | I think US version says that too |
| 06:27.20 | Jamash | that's weird |
| 06:27.29 | Fisker- | hmm |
| 06:27.29 | Dagmar | That's rather normal |
| 06:27.34 | Fisker- | last i checked it didn't |
| 06:27.42 | Fisker- | Doesn't matter if it's normal |
| 06:27.52 | Fisker- | http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/legal/ <-doesn't even have one |
| 06:27.59 | Jamash | they can say that, but can they enforce it? |
| 06:28.08 | Jamash | lemme check something |
| 06:28.13 | Beladona | it will probably take a case to find out |
| 06:28.19 | Dagmar | Fisker-: That's because the US and EU have different legal systems, and therefore different legal requirements that must be met |
| 06:28.22 | End | hm, guess not |
| 06:28.46 | Dagmar | Copyright law in the US covers almost all of what you're carping about being in the EU ToS |
| 06:28.58 | Fisker- | Nah |
| 06:29.05 | Fisker- | Because then google wouldn't even exist |
| 06:29.13 | Dagmar | Theyr'e definitely not forbidding search engines to index the site with that |
| 06:29.26 | Fisker- | I disagree |
| 06:29.27 | Jamash | sites are free to block google by a simple robots.txt |
| 06:29.35 | Dagmar | You'd be mistaken |
| 06:29.39 | Jamash | wow-europe.com doesn't even *have* a robots.txt |
| 06:29.40 | Fisker- | Jamash i know |
| 06:29.44 | Fisker- | i also know that |
| 06:29.50 | Jamash | ergo they're not blocking google |
| 06:29.57 | End | I think google has successfully argued fair use in the US, anyhow |
| 06:29.59 | Fisker- | Not saying they do |
| 06:30.05 | Dagmar | For example, in the US "You may not frame or use framing techniques to enclose any trademark, logo, or other proprietary information (including images, text, page layout, or form) of Blizzard and its affiliates without express written consent." has already been hashed out in the courts as verboten |
| 06:30.15 | Dagmar | They wouldn't need to mention that on the US ToS |
| 06:30.23 | End | (not in regards to Blizzard, but some other site) |
| 06:31.23 | Jamash | The Google fair use argument was for thumbnailing images I believe |
| 06:31.32 | End | was it? I don't remember |
| 06:31.39 | End | it was something to do with indexing a site though |
| 06:31.57 | Jamash | indexing text with brief excerpts is pretty clearly fair use, and you can opt-out easily if you don't like it |
| 06:32.32 | Jamash | Why are we talking about Google? |
| 06:32.43 | Dagmar | Fisker said they hate Google in the EU |
| 06:32.45 | Jamash | I came here for an argument! |
| 06:32.57 | Fisker- | naww Dagmar |
| 06:33.27 | Dagmar | "<Fisker-> On the EU google aren't allowed to index their site" |
| 06:33.32 | Dagmar | :) |
| 06:33.37 | Fisker- | yeah |
| 06:33.52 | Fisker- | not <Fisker-> On the EU Blizzard hate google |
| 06:34.04 | Dagmar | That passage you pasted wouldn't block search engine indexing, but has to be there for other reasons |
| 06:34.09 | Shirik | Signs that arena is jacked up: |
| 06:34.13 | Shirik | Games played: 40 |
| 06:34.17 | Shirik | Wins: 20, Losses: 20 |
| 06:34.23 | Fisker- | hoho |
| 06:34.25 | Jamash | anyway google does index wow-europe.com |
| 06:34.25 | Shirik | Rating gained this week: 200 |
| 06:34.58 | Jamash | arena is totally wack, jack |
| 06:35.21 | Fisker- | Dagmar possibly, but the point was that the document is stupid because some people are afraid of using, for example, the armory because it violates the websites' terms of use |
| 06:35.31 | Dagmar | Shirik: I would assume that it means on average you were pitted against teams with a higher ranking |
| 06:35.51 | Dagmar | Fisker-: The armory violates what? |
| 06:36.03 | Shirik | Well sure Dagmar |
| 06:36.08 | Fisker- | Using data from the armory |
| 06:36.09 | Shirik | but question is why :P |
| 06:36.12 | Fisker- | Not allowed on the EU |
| 06:37.15 | Dagmar | Fisker-: I don't see that |
| 06:37.22 | Jamash | wowarmory.com has a different legal policy |
| 06:37.29 | Dagmar | Exactly |
| 06:37.40 | Fisker- | wowarmory.com didn't always exist |
| 06:38.50 | Jamash | ...and? |
| 06:39.19 | Dagmar | I suspect that WoWArmory is still operating on the basis of "things which don't screw up the server are okay" at this point |
| 06:39.25 | Fisker- | Meaning that it was covered by said legal policy ealier |
| 06:39.27 | Fisker- | Dagmar yeah |
| 06:39.32 | Fisker- | And if you spam it too hard it just bans you |
| 06:39.35 | End | if you try...yeah |
| 06:39.43 | End | yeah, it'll tempban you for a day |
| 06:39.46 | End | or something like that |
| 06:39.46 | Fisker- | earlier* |
| 06:39.49 | Dagmar | Until someone finds a reason to distribute something that has a few thousand clients doing tens of thousands of queries in a row |
| 06:40.33 | Dagmar | I see no link between the EU main site ToS document that would indicate it applies to wowarmory.com as well |
| 06:42.47 | Dagmar | End: Yeah I kinda wish Rawr had it's db update tool set so that you could tell it to take it's time pulling down info, say, a query every five minutes or something, just to keep load down |
| 06:43.22 | End | does rawr get you tempbanned sometimes? |
| 06:43.27 | Dagmar | It will |
| 06:43.30 | End | ouch |
| 06:43.41 | Dagmar | After a few thousand queries in a row, Armory shuts right up |
| 06:43.49 | End | yeah |
| 06:43.52 | Fisker- | Database dump, go! |
| 06:44.08 | Dagmar | Yeah like, people could pull that info from the mpq's and not beat the poor site to death |
| 06:44.37 | Jamash | a lot of info is provided by the server and is not in the client |
| 06:44.54 | Fisker- | You could make a custom header |
| 06:45.02 | Dagmar | I thought the armor and it's stats were in the mpq data |
| 06:45.06 | Fisker- | Tell clients to slow the fuck down or be banned |
| 06:45.06 | Dagmar | s/armor/gear/; |
| 06:45.47 | Jamash | ever notice that after a major patch, you sometimes see a message in item tooltips that it's waiting for the server? |
| 06:45.59 | Jamash | that's because the client's item cache is invalidated and it has to re-fetch |
| 06:46.11 | Jamash | armor models are in the client, stats are on the server |
| 06:46.16 | Dagmar | I'll take your word for it that I was mistaken, but there's still the cache to pull a lot of that data from |
| 06:46.18 | End | yeah, item stats are server side |
| 06:46.25 | End | item set lists, item models, etc are client side |
| 06:46.33 | Fisker- | Dagmar otherwise you'd seen loot from bosses in 3.1 ages ag o |
| 06:46.46 | Fisker- | Only way to find loot is special effects or set bonuses |
| 06:46.50 | End | most spell info is client side too |
| 06:46.52 | Dagmar | Fisker-: That would be assuming it had already been settled upon |
| 06:46.55 | Fisker- | that's really the only thing loot related you can find |
| 06:47.31 | Jamash | if you look in <wow dir> Cache\WDB\<locale>\*.wdb you see what's stored server side and updated dynamically |
| 06:47.56 | Dagmar | I haven't gotten around to sifting through that data much yet |
| 06:49.49 | Fisker- | http://xkcd.com/ <-don't get it :E |
| 06:50.28 | Fisker- | oh i think i do now :P |
| 06:50.29 | Syzgyn | Seriously? |
| 06:50.30 | Syzgyn | ok |
| 06:50.34 | Dagmar | hehe |
| 06:50.41 | Fisker- | because . is the seperator hear |
| 06:50.44 | Fisker- | and , is for decimal values |
| 06:50.47 | Fisker- | here* |
| 06:50.54 | End | lol |
| 06:51.28 | Dagmar | Well, there's also that "one hundred seventy billion" and "one hundred sixty-five million" *sound* more sensational than they should |
| 06:51.44 | End | that's the point |
| 06:51.46 | Dagmar | Your brain picks up on the number a lot more than it does the designators |
| 06:51.55 | Fisker- | yeah |
| 06:51.56 | End | Fisker- was just getting confused |
| 06:52.04 | End | because he lives in germany or some crazy place like that |
| 06:52.08 | Jamash | I don't really get his point, but I know maths |
| 06:52.08 | End | I know you EU kids! |
| 06:52.11 | Fisker- | i actually thought it was $170 million they got and $165 million going to the bonuses |
| 06:52.11 | Fisker- | :P |
| 06:52.31 | Jamash | so I can tell the difference between millions and billions |
| 06:52.45 | Dagmar | Fisker-: Yeah, if someone's not paying close attention to the news they can miss the 'b' and 'm' differences entirely, but their brain will register the 170-165 comparison pretty quickly |
| 06:53.08 | Dagmar | It's a tactic salesmen use to their advantage |
| 06:54.04 | smcn | http://blue.mmo-champion.com/28/15864307191-hunter-31-talent-points-refund.html |
| 06:54.11 | Jamash | the image title is a reference to http://verizonmath.blogspot.com/2006/12/verizon-doesnt-know-dollars-from-cents.html |
| 06:54.13 | Dagmar | A cousin to that is when dealers say a car is "just eleven-two" |
| 06:54.14 | smcn | respecs for all, in case you were wondering |
| 06:54.21 | Fisker- | think that was kinda obvious :P |
| 06:54.40 | Fisker- | dual-spec change notwithstanding |
| 06:55.18 | Jamash | any time talents are added, removed or change places there's a full refund, by necessity |
| 06:55.44 | Jamash | the game is not gonna try to match your old tree to your new tree and place talents for you :P |
| 06:55.45 | Dagmar | Leaving people with a partially specced toon wouldn't be funny |
| 06:56.25 | Dagmar | It's bad enough I've had to get roflstomped a few times before I realized I'd been despecced the last time it happened |
| 06:56.29 | Jamash | hee |
| 06:56.34 | Jamash | I once had to respec in combat |
| 06:56.46 | Jamash | not fun let me tell you |
| 06:56.52 | Dagmar | Yep. Did that the time previous. Frantically clicking on stuff on my way to Karazhan |
| 06:56.59 | Jamash | but it provides a good test case for Learning Aid |
| 06:57.12 | Jamash | so it prompted me to update my code |
| 06:57.47 | Jamash | can't add or remove action buttons in combat |
| 06:58.10 | Dagmar | Yech |
| 06:58.26 | Dagmar | Can't edit macros either |
| 06:58.38 | *** join/#wowuidev brykrys (n=chatzill@WoWUIDev/Norganna/Dev/Brykrys) |
| 06:58.58 | Dagmar | I had to scream at the tank to stop a @#$@ moment the last time I was in Nexus because I was trying to make a shot rotation change and he kept pulling *just* as I was about done |
| 06:59.17 | Jamash | heh |
| 07:00.23 | *** join/#wowuidev ecstasia (n=ecs@unaffiliated/ecstasia) |
| 07:00.38 | *** join/#wowuidev Torhal (n=callahan@74-130-66-145.dhcp.insightbb.com) |
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| 07:29.33 | Fisker- | Anyone know why Blizzard decided to make arcane blast a debuff? :P |
| 07:29.52 | selckin | i like cleansing it |
| 07:29.59 | selckin | mages hate me hardcore |
| 07:30.10 | Fisker- | ^^ |
| 07:30.19 | Fisker- | you are an inspiration to mankind |
| 07:31.00 | *** join/#wowuidev Guest11525 (n=Shirik@conspiracy/developer/Shirik) |
| 07:31.01 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o Guest11525] by ChanServ |
| 07:31.24 | Fisker- | aww Shirik |
| 07:31.25 | Fisker- | it |
| 07:31.27 | Fisker- | it's you |
| 07:33.55 | Shirik | wuwu |
| 07:34.08 | Fisker- | pvp gear sucks |
| 07:34.09 | Fisker- | i hate you |
| 07:34.14 | *** join/#wowuidev Zootfizzle (n=Zootfizz@WoWUIDev/Blizz/Zooty-Zoot-Zoot) |
| 07:34.14 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o Zootfizzle] by ChanServ |
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| 07:34.37 | haste | :-----D |
| 07:34.37 | Fisker- | BAM |
| 07:34.38 | Fisker- | btw |
| 07:34.39 | Fisker- | fu |
| 07:35.18 | Wraithan | Anyone try any of the tiling window manager solutions for Windows? |
| 07:35.43 | haste | My guess is that they all will have issues |
| 07:35.49 | Fisker- | tiling window manager? |
| 07:35.53 | haste | and you'll also lack the desktops to make it nice |
| 07:36.09 | Dagmar | Windows hates the virtual desktops. They hates it! |
| 07:36.21 | Wraithan | I already tile my windows manually |
| 07:36.43 | Wraithan | Just want something that doesn't take 30 seconds to line everything up nicely |
| 07:37.10 | haste | reroll linux! |
| 07:37.14 | Wraithan | I run a quad display setup |
| 07:37.24 | Wraithan | Eh, too much work to use linux for me right now |
| 07:37.30 | Wraithan | can't play all my games, blah blah |
| 07:37.36 | Antiarc | How does Photoshop run in Wine? |
| 07:37.40 | haste | no idea |
| 07:37.44 | Antiarc | Honestly that's the last thing keeping me tethered to Windows |
| 07:37.48 | Wraithan | I really like Arch, but can't play UT3 |
| 07:37.49 | Antiarc | GIMP is nice but it's not Photoshop |
| 07:37.53 | aesir | I need an AddOn that creates replacement Hearthstones. Long story. One of those..."seemed like a good idea at the time" things. |
| 07:37.57 | haste | doesn't UT3 have a linux port? |
| 07:38.13 | Wraithan | nope |
| 07:38.17 | Wraithan | been in the works for 2 years |
| 07:38.19 | haste | they ditched it? |
| 07:38.20 | Dagmar | aesir: Just ask for someone to sell you theirs. ;) |
| 07:38.25 | haste | so sadface |
| 07:38.49 | Wraithan | http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=NjM2Mg |
| 07:38.51 | Wraithan | heh |
| 07:38.58 | aesir | Not allowed to sell addons anymore. *blankly* |
| 07:38.58 | Wraithan | They were so hopeful back then |
| 07:39.16 | haste | loading~ |
| 07:39.30 | haste | hehe |
| 07:39.39 | haste | phoronix is always hopeful :P |
| 07:40.01 | cogwheel | aesir: not according to blizzard, anyway :> |
| 07:40.09 | cogwheel | ui community needs moar lawyers imo >< |
| 07:40.21 | Antiarc | ui community needs enough $$ to fight a court case |
| 07:40.27 | aesir | Sorry, Cog. Sort of a bad joke. I was playing on Dagmar's reply. |
| 07:40.35 | Antiarc | Blizzard has more money than God right now, they can just $$ any challenge into the ground |
| 07:40.53 | Jamash | I have a debt worth 998 trillion dollars |
| 07:40.55 | Antiarc | Honestly, if we just get the top mod authors to pull their work from distribution, that'd force a revert |
| 07:40.59 | Fisker- | get some epic trolls |
| 07:41.00 | Jamash | sadly I have no hope of collecting |
| 07:41.14 | aesir | It won't play, Antiarc. But there are still options. |
| 07:41.17 | |Jelly| | Just caught up on that thread after a much needed nap. I wish I had been there for most of it. |
| 07:41.18 | cogwheel | Antiarc: i wish i shared your optimism :P |
| 07:41.30 | |Jelly| | Same. |
| 07:41.31 | Antiarc | If QH and Recount and Cart and AtlasLoot, etc, all pull their ideas, the outcry from the plebes would be legendary. |
| 07:41.38 | Antiarc | err, all pull their files |
| 07:41.39 | Wraithan | DBM |
| 07:41.45 | selckin | the problem is it can't be done tho |
| 07:41.51 | selckin | everyone allready has a working copy |
| 07:41.53 | Antiarc | Xinhuan said that 12 addons account for >50% of the mod traffic on Curse |
| 07:42.00 | Antiarc | Let's see how many of those work in 3.1 :P |
| 07:42.21 | Antiarc | The Outfitter author already pulled his work. |
| 07:42.28 | Antiarc | A few more blocks and the Jenga tower tumbles down. |
| 07:42.39 | selckin | you're all overreacting imo :\ |
| 07:42.45 | Antiarc | No, we're really not. |
| 07:43.01 | Dagmar | No one's even heard Blizzard's reaction to this yet |
| 07:43.05 | Antiarc | Dictating what I may do as an independent creator of copyrighted IP is beyond their bounds. |
| 07:43.07 | cogwheel | I just don't think addon users are a big enough share of the player base, nor are many of them more dedicated to their addons than the game |
| 07:43.18 | Dagmar | I kinda doubt they can ignore it. |
| 07:43.31 | |Jelly| | ... and the average user doesn't see the problems that this brings up |
| 07:43.33 | Dagmar | Actually, I doubt they *would* ignore it |
| 07:43.38 | cogwheel | Dagmar: you're talking about blizzard here :P |
| 07:43.39 | Fisker- | i think you are overreacting right now :P |
| 07:43.46 | Antiarc | I'm -hoping- that this is just Legal overstepping their bounds, and the people on the ground will reel them back in. |
| 07:43.59 | |Jelly| | I hate to think it, but I think most of the average user base of WoW is like Cog's favorite troll here. :-\ |
| 07:44.00 | Dagmar | cogwheel: I know. I've watched the way they behave since before CB and I've had a lot of other companies to watch to compare to |
| 07:44.06 | Antiarc | see: The Curse TOS change and related outcry |
| 07:44.07 | aesir | It might, back-handedly, work to benefit addon sites and authors. Depends if more users are driven to addon sites to find out wth happened to their addon. If the sites in turn can keep those users, you may be able to get as many (or more?) eyeballs on your donate buttons. Maybe. |
| 07:45.06 | Dagmar | cogwheel: There's ways that two of those passages could be interpreted which seem to be counter to the other things Blizz does, so I'm figuring by Monday or Tuesday at latest someone there will have called some of the people from legal into a meeting with management to sort something out |
| 07:45.22 | Antiarc | Honestly, I could even live with #5 if I had to. I think it's super tacky of Blizzard, but I could live with it. |
| 07:45.28 | Antiarc | #1 is a major, major problem for me. |
| 07:45.38 | Jamash | it's overreaching on Blizzard's part |
| 07:45.39 | Antiarc | Dictating what I can do with my addons outside of WoW is a giant-ass red flag. |
| 07:45.48 | Antiarc | Note: I do not, and have never sold my addons. |
| 07:45.59 | Dagmar | Yeah, but they may feel they _have_ to reach that far with #1 to prevent something else specific |
| 07:46.03 | Antiarc | But the importance of the principle of the thing cannot be understated. |
| 07:46.17 | Dagmar | What, I'm interested in hearing them talk about |
| 07:46.29 | Jamash | I think you mean cannot be *over*stated |
| 07:46.36 | Antiarc | Yes >_> |
| 07:46.53 | Antiarc | If the conspiracy theorists are right and this is paving the path to in-game advertisements, my account is going to be cancelled in record time. |
| 07:47.15 | Dagmar | I really doubt it will |
| 07:47.17 | Jamash | the thing is these terms read like a copyright license but blizzard has no copyright on addons ('cept those that include blizzard code or data) |
| 07:47.20 | Fisker- | well why not? |
| 07:47.24 | Fisker- | They did it with the forums |
| 07:47.30 | Fisker- | What's stopping them from doing it ingame? |
| 07:47.34 | Antiarc | At least I can adblock on the focums. |
| 07:47.35 | Antiarc | forums* |
| 07:47.38 | Fisker- | May just be at loading screens, etc. |
| 07:47.38 | Dagmar | because it doesn't make any sense at all, in game |
| 07:47.40 | Fisker- | But still annoying |
| 07:47.54 | Dagmar | Ad banners on a forum? Egads! I've never seen that before. |
| 07:48.06 | Jamash | on a paid forum? |
| 07:48.09 | Dagmar | THey're the common case, so they "fit" |
| 07:48.19 | Jamash | most forums that even have paid versions say "pay to get rid of the ads!" |
| 07:48.25 | Dagmar | Jamash: Anyone can read the site without logging in |
| 07:48.30 | Fisker- | Ad banners in a game? NEVER seen before |
| 07:48.31 | Fisker- | http://www.rpgclassics.com/subsites/starcraft/images/channel.gif |
| 07:48.38 | Fisker- | see, no ads to be seen anywhere |
| 07:48.38 | Jamash | blizzard has "pay to keep the ads!" |
| 07:48.53 | Fisker- | Infact i might even be so bold to state that ad banners ingame predates adbanners on forums :P |
| 07:48.59 | Antiarc | It's extremely tacky to serve ads to paying customers. |
| 07:49.07 | Fisker- | yeah |
| 07:49.11 | Jamash | Fisker-: Battle.net is free of charge |
| 07:49.22 | selckin | it's paying for a subway ride and getting ads |
| 07:49.22 | Fisker- | So? |
| 07:49.25 | Fisker- | Forums are paid for |
| 07:49.26 | Torhal | Jamash: WoW Isn't, though, and they serve ads on the forums. |
| 07:49.30 | Jamash | WoW forums are paid. You shouldn't see ads. |
| 07:49.38 | Fisker- | That opens up the door for advertising in the game |
| 07:49.47 | Jamash | They should be disabled for logged in customers at least. |
| 07:49.53 | Fisker- | Even the battle.net forums are paid for |
| 07:49.59 | Dagmar | How freaking dumb would it look to have billboards anywhere near those tree hugging night elves |
| 07:50.07 | Dagmar | There would be quests to set them on fire. |
| 07:50.18 | Fisker- | Noone said it had to be in the actual gameworld |
| 07:50.28 | Fisker- | That's not how it is with starcraft and the other games either |
| 07:50.28 | Torhal | Dagmar: I could see "Ned's Gun Emporium" signs by Ironforge, though... |
| 07:50.33 | Wobin | I can see the night elves benefiting from those nasal delivery system ads |
| 07:50.47 | Wobin | I hear they can be a bit... quick off the trigger |
| 07:50.56 | Wobin | So to speak. |
| 07:51.01 | Dagmar | yes and every horde orc player would go berserk at the ads suggesting they buy some deodorant |
| 07:51.18 | Wobin | nah, just the undead |
| 07:51.29 | Fisker- | The keylogger incident showed everything i needed to know why the ads are a BAD idea |
| 07:51.32 | Jamash | or trying to sell razors to dwarves |
| 07:51.43 | Fisker- | keylogger incident = goldseller ads incident :P |
| 07:51.49 | Fisker- | But which could've been the keylogger incident |
| 07:51.51 | Antiarc | That amused the hell out of me |
| 07:51.52 | Dagmar | Fisker-: Oh yeah, there's *that* too |
| 07:51.56 | Fisker- | Next time they won't be that lucky |
| 07:52.27 | Fisker- | They're probably paying someone to F5 the forums only to launch a keylogger ad the moment they get the chance |
| 07:52.54 | Dagmar | It's only a matter of time before adbureau.net accidentally sells some ad slots to someone who'll sneak in a loaded PDF or flash document |
| 07:53.11 | Jamash | The WoW forums have had issues with XSS in the past, too |
| 07:53.14 | Shirik | ok |
| 07:53.20 | Shirik | this channel is not happy now |
| 07:53.27 | Shirik | Normally my screen isnt' filled with text |
| 07:53.29 | Fisker- | we're definitely happy |
| 07:53.34 | Torhal | This channel is a sad panda? |
| 07:53.38 | Fisker- | happy about hating blizzard's poor choices |
| 07:53.39 | Fisker- | :P |
| 07:53.41 | Shirik | it's usually offset by grey with join/quit messages |
| 07:53.50 | Jamash | I'm happy with ice cream |
| 07:53.52 | Shirik | so I can actually read without my eyes falling off the screen |
| 07:53.59 | Shirik | So, I order you all to stop talking for 5 minutes |
| 07:54.00 | Shirik | ty |
| 07:54.07 | Jamash | Shirik: Your text wrapped at the word "off" |
| 07:54.12 | cogwheel | Shirik: does it help if we ping you from time to time? |
| 07:54.18 | Shirik | oh great |
| 07:54.21 | Shirik | now everything will show in yellow |
| 07:54.22 | cogwheel | ~failrik |
| 07:54.23 | purl | FAIL, Shirik, FAIL! |
| 07:54.24 | Fisker- | is this srs Shirik or why so srs Shirik? |
| 07:54.34 | Antiarc | Interesting observation |
| 07:55.01 | Antiarc | This policy restricts the usage of addons like the Curse profiler, if it's generating revenue, yes?> |
| 07:55.30 | Jamash | Not unless you have to pay to download it. |
| 07:55.45 | Antiarc | "Developers may not create âpremiumâ; versions of add-ons with additional for-pay features, charge money to download an add-on, charge for services related to the add-on, or otherwise require some form of monetary compensation to download or access an add-on. " |
| 07:55.46 | Torhal | Antiarc: Oooooh... |
| 07:55.53 | Dagmar | It doesn't affect Curse's website |
| 07:56.00 | Antiarc | It reads like almost any revenue stream in which an addon is a part of is a no-no |
| 07:56.03 | Jamash | Does Curse charge for any of that? |
| 07:56.07 | Antiarc | I would have cited Rupture, but they went belly-up |
| 07:56.17 | Jamash | They're certainly not prohibiting banner ads on addon download sites. |
| 07:56.24 | Antiarc | They'll be charging for their premium downloader service, which is going to do a number of things enabled by data collection from the addon |
| 07:56.29 | Shirik | they would never do that Jamash |
| 07:56.34 | Wraithan | Curse plans a premium account for the downloader, for automatic updates and such |
| 07:56.46 | Jamash | yeah and the day they do that is the day I stop using Curse |
| 07:56.56 | Fisker- | Thats a different thing though |
| 07:57.01 | Jamash | and stop hosting my addons there |
| 07:57.07 | Shirik | Wraithan: They do? |
| 07:57.19 | Fisker- | For now every account is "premium" |
| 07:57.20 | Antiarc | Heh, speaking of advertising: http://s5.tinypic.com/jkw390.jpg |
| 07:57.24 | Fisker- | Until they're done testing |
| 07:57.27 | Fisker- | Unless they changed plans |
| 07:57.28 | Wraithan | Yeah, it automatically tags you as premium for now with curse |
| 07:57.43 | Fisker- | Which may have happened since the test should've been over by now |
| 07:57.46 | Fisker- | but i don't know |
| 07:58.02 | NightHawkTheSane | how does php configure without an error five minutes ago, but after compiling and adding gettext, now decides to error on mcrypt. WTF? |
| 07:58.07 | Jamash | I'm fine with them putting ads on the downloader, but charging for it is dumb |
| 07:58.12 | Shirik | NightHawkTheSane: It's PHP |
| 07:58.16 | End | ^ |
| 07:58.23 | Jamash | ^^ |
| 07:59.01 | Shirik | ^^^ |
| 07:59.02 | NightHawkTheSane | meh, im really too tired to have a snappy comeback to moronic statements like that. sorry. |
| 07:59.10 | Shirik | can I ^ my own statement? |
| 07:59.15 | Jamash | you just did |
| 07:59.33 | cogwheel | ("^"):rep(1/0) |
| 07:59.59 | Fisker- | I wonder if Blizzard is going to get in the addon business then |
| 07:59.59 | Shirik | does that work? |
| 08:00.04 | Fisker- | i.e. put up a site for download |
| 08:00.05 | cogwheel | shouldn't... |
| 08:00.05 | Thunder_Child | NightHawkTheSane, if you are to tired for that you really need your sleep |
| 08:00.07 | End | lol |
| 08:00.12 | Jamash | Blizzard is already in the addon business. |
| 08:00.15 | Jamash | sort of |
| 08:00.16 | cogwheel | (work) |
| 08:00.17 | Shirik | I mean, what would it do |
| 08:00.19 | Shirik | malloc(inf)? |
| 08:00.22 | |Jelly| | Being pseudo-forced to bed. Goodnight all while I go stare at the ceiling for two hours. |
| 08:00.23 | Fisker- | Yeah but i mean host it, have an updater, etc. |
| 08:00.24 | Shirik | that would be pretty awesome |
| 08:00.32 | cogwheel | error division by 0? |
| 08:00.38 | cogwheel | lua> 1/0 |
| 08:00.38 | lua_bot | cogwheel: inf |
| 08:00.39 | NightHawkTheSane | Thunder_Child: i probably do, honestly. |
| 08:00.39 | Jamash | lua> 0^0 |
| 08:00.39 | lua_bot | Jamash: 1 |
| 08:00.42 | Shirik | cogwheel: division by zero is legal in floating point numbers |
| 08:00.44 | Jamash | WHAT |
| 08:00.54 | Fisker- | division by zero can be done |
| 08:00.59 | cogwheel | lua> ("^"):rep(1/0) |
| 08:00.59 | lua_bot | cogwheel: No output |
| 08:01.00 | Fisker- | Because i call the result nullity |
| 08:01.09 | Fisker- | 1/0 = nullity or whatever |
| 08:01.12 | *** join/#wowuidev sylvaan (n=sylvanaa@unaffiliated/sylvanaar) |
| 08:01.13 | End | lua> 1/0 |
| 08:01.14 | lua_bot | End: inf |
| 08:01.17 | Shirik | It can cause a CPU exception though |
| 08:01.21 | Fisker- | fuck you guys i'm a professor |
| 08:01.29 | Shirik | But in generall FP exceptions are masked by default |
| 08:01.39 | Shirik | Just like the exception raised when you do 1/3 is masked |
| 08:01.50 | End | oh lol, I did what cogwheel did above |
| 08:01.55 | End | I need to l2read |
| 08:01.58 | Jamash | professor of what, is the question |
| 08:02.02 | Shirik | trolling |
| 08:02.06 | Jamash | lua> inf - inf |
| 08:02.06 | lua_bot | Jamash: luabot:1: attempt to perform arithmetic on global 'inf' (a nil value) |
| 08:02.13 | cogwheel | End: it took a lot of self control not to point that out ^^ |
| 08:02.16 | End | lua> 1/0 - 1/0 |
| 08:02.17 | lua_bot | End: nan |
| 08:02.38 | End | cogwheel: well tough, I had to point it out anyway |
| 08:02.40 | Shirik | Jamash: math.huge |
| 08:02.56 | End | lua> math.huge |
| 08:02.56 | lua_bot | End: inf |
| 08:03.00 | Fisker- | lua> cock.huge |
| 08:03.01 | lua_bot | Fisker-: luabot:1: attempt to index global 'cock' (a nil value) |
| 08:03.03 | Fisker- | fuck |
| 08:03.08 | cogwheel | rofl |
| 08:03.14 | End | Fisker-: you cockless bastard |
| 08:03.15 | Antiarc | Nicely done Fisker-. |
| 08:03.16 | Jamash | lua> math.cock |
| 08:03.16 | lua_bot | Jamash: nil |
| 08:03.16 | Fisker- | :( |
| 08:03.20 | Shirik | I would quote that in topic |
| 08:03.20 | Jamash | :-O |
| 08:03.20 | cogwheel | hello qdb.org |
| 08:03.24 | Shirik | but it's somewhat inappropriate |
| 08:03.37 | cogwheel | er... .us |
| 08:03.56 | *** join/#wowuidev Vilkku (n=Vilkku@86-60-145-237-dyn-dsl.ssp.fi) |
| 08:03.57 | Thunder_Child | .us? |
| 08:04.01 | Jamash | .we |
| 08:04.05 | cogwheel | qdb.us |
| 08:04.05 | Jamash | vs .them |
| 08:04.06 | End | .yourmomma |
| 08:04.13 | cogwheel | not .org |
| 08:04.21 | Jamash | org.asm |
| 08:04.25 | Thunder_Child | whats the diff? |
| 08:04.33 | Shirik | .CODE |
| 08:04.35 | Shirik | org $1000 |
| 08:04.47 | Shirik | jmp $1000 |
| 08:04.52 | Fisker- | costs a $100 to reg a .org domain? |
| 08:04.58 | Fisker- | with an extra 0 of course |
| 08:05.02 | Jamash | assembly porn |
| 08:05.04 | Jamash | that's new to me |
| 08:05.18 | Thunder_Child | oh...i was thinking bash, nvm me |
| 08:05.47 | Fisker- | http://www.por.no/ <-i'm disappointed that it's not even used |
| 08:06.09 | Shirik | he's probably asking for $100000 for the name |
| 08:06.10 | Fisker- | probably haste's homepage of choice |
| 08:06.14 | Fisker- | probably |
| 08:06.26 | Fisker- | "lolool it spells "porno" you giev money nao rite?" |
| 08:07.38 | cogwheel | ok... one more forum refresh then i'm going nn |
| 08:07.58 | Jamash | you're going network news? |
| 08:08.01 | Thunder_Child | time to blowup cog|sleep's planets |
| 08:08.03 | Tekkub | poor poor coggy |
| 08:08.57 | Jamash | Please don't blow up the Earth |
| 08:09.03 | Jamash | that's where I live |
| 08:09.29 | Thunder_Child | i dont think anyone owns the earth |
| 08:09.35 | Thunder_Child | well...the feds maybe |
| 08:09.41 | Jamash | don't want the earth to have and hold |
| 08:10.45 | cog|sleep | ~lart Fisker- |
| 08:10.45 | purl | turns Fisker- into a lifesized tux doll |
| 08:10.49 | cog|sleep | i was using that |
| 08:11.10 | Shirik | you can't go to sleep cog|sleep |
| 08:11.26 | cog|sleep | some indian dude named bobcat or something put a bunch of weird text on the page |
| 08:11.33 | cog|sleep | <.< |
| 08:11.34 | cog|sleep | >.> |
| 08:11.35 | Shirik | ? |
| 08:11.37 | Zyndrome | http://www.dannychoo.com/adp/eng/1677/Mac+Life+4.html |
| 08:11.38 | Zyndrome | ._. |
| 08:11.52 | End | was it a half naked indian? |
| 08:11.59 | cog|sleep | Shirik: sry... horrible pun on apache tomcat |
| 08:13.26 | Antiarc | http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/464/1051464/apple-redraws-world-map |
| 08:13.27 | Antiarc | heh |
| 08:14.27 | Antiarc | arrrrrgghh |
| 08:15.02 | Antiarc | People arguing that for-pay addons should be banned because they use blizzard's IP for profit and then ignore Thottbot, WoW Insider, mmo-champ, and my armory tools make me want to scream. |
| 08:16.24 | Shirik | I have a really strange question |
| 08:16.29 | Shirik | Can you copyright a language? |
| 08:16.40 | End | what do you mean, language? |
| 08:16.43 | Shirik | (Please note, this is COMPLETELY independent of the whole Blizzard policy thing) |
| 08:16.51 | Shirik | Like |
| 08:16.54 | Shirik | if I make a programming language |
| 08:16.54 | End | like, a programming language? |
| 08:16.58 | Shirik | can I copyright the language? |
| 08:17.07 | End | you can copyright the implementation and documentation |
| 08:17.15 | Shirik | but the language itself |
| 08:17.27 | End | I dunno |
| 08:17.32 | Shirik | I'll take that as a "no" for purposes of argument |
| 08:17.41 | Shirik | Now, what if the language was all in pictures |
| 08:17.46 | Shirik | it's still a language |
| 08:17.50 | Shirik | but now we use squares, etc. to do it |
| 08:18.01 | End | if you really want to try to tie things down, there's the grammar for a language, but that's just more documentation |
| 08:18.03 | Fisker- | fuck that Antiarc |
| 08:18.07 | Thunder_Child | otherwise klingon would be copyrighted? |
| 08:18.13 | Fisker- | As a citizen of denmark i am offended! |
| 08:18.34 | Antiarc | The language implementation would be copyrighted, but I don't think the language itself would be. |
| 08:18.42 | End | Shirik: that's just a language with a strange alphabet |
| 08:18.46 | End | :P |
| 08:18.49 | Shirik | ok so |
| 08:18.52 | Shirik | if I showed you something like this |
| 08:18.59 | End | you forget though |
| 08:19.04 | End | we're all lawyers here! |
| 08:19.16 | Fisker- | <-lawyer at lol |
| 08:20.17 | Shirik | http://images.gammatester.com/pics/c6d24701d1dcfdd24f735d48554899f8.png |
| 08:20.18 | Shirik | I show you this |
| 08:20.30 | Shirik | and tell you it's actually a program |
| 08:20.36 | Jamash | ~trout Shirik |
| 08:20.37 | purl | ACTION slaps Shirik around a bit with a large trout! |
| 08:20.42 | Shirik | Naturally I can copyright the actual program, that's not in question |
| 08:20.42 | Tekkub | you know... the more I look at it |
| 08:20.45 | Shirik | but what about the language |
| 08:20.48 | Tekkub | I don't think cog exists |
| 08:20.54 | Thunder_Child | Shirik, your taskbar looks worse than mine.....and i have 2! |
| 08:20.55 | Tekkub | he's just clad's alter ego |
| 08:20.57 | Shirik | Can I legally make my own interpreter for it? |
| 08:20.59 | Jamash | You cannot copyright ideas. |
| 08:21.02 | Torhal | Tekkub: Sure he does...in TradeWars. |
| 08:21.10 | Tekkub | he argues almost EXACTLY like clad |
| 08:21.12 | Shirik | Thunder_Child: That's nothing |
| 08:21.28 | Antiarc | I don't think the actual language is copyrightable |
| 08:21.34 | Jamash | you might be able to patent the language though |
| 08:21.35 | Antiarc | Things implemented in that language would be. |
| 08:21.45 | Shirik | I've been looking for my next big project |
| 08:21.53 | Fisker- | ugh Shirik |
| 08:21.56 | Thunder_Child | Shirik, granted because i have 2 it looks much better |
| 08:21.57 | Shirik | and LabVIEW has a huge hold on the market right now |
| 08:21.58 | Fisker- | the new taskbar in Win7 is awesome |
| 08:22.01 | Jamash | If you could copyright a language then (for example) Mono would not exist |
| 08:22.02 | Fisker- | use it |
| 08:22.02 | Shirik | But it costs a shit ton |
| 08:22.09 | Zootfizzle | Tekkub: You're crazy |
| 08:22.09 | Shirik | Fisker-: It is ugly as hell |
| 08:22.14 | End | Shirik: you'd probably have to change some of the icons |
| 08:22.21 | Tekkub | Zootfizzle, no seriously look at it |
| 08:22.21 | Shirik | Okay sure I would use different icons or something |
| 08:22.26 | Shirik | but I mean |
| 08:22.28 | Shirik | I can draw squares |
| 08:22.29 | Jamash | you' have to change all of the icons |
| 08:22.30 | Tekkub | he does the "broken quote" replies |
| 08:22.30 | End | the language itself? I don't think you could |
| 08:22.32 | Shirik | you can'y copyright a square |
| 08:22.33 | Jamash | but that's not hard |
| 08:22.35 | Shirik | can't* |
| 08:22.53 | Shirik | Or even if it were just the general idea |
| 08:22.55 | Fisker- | You can patent the language though |
| 08:22.55 | Tekkub | he questions the sanity or deductive capabilities of those that don't agree |
| 08:22.56 | Shirik | of graphical programming |
| 08:23.01 | End | er I mean, I don't think you could claim copyright the language itself I mean |
| 08:23.03 | Fisker- | or rather the format |
| 08:23.08 | Shirik | That you can make a language out of wires and functions |
| 08:23.10 | Fisker- | and you'd have to pay licensing fees to use the format |
| 08:23.12 | Thunder_Child | Zootfizzle, dont look at anything Tekkub shows you |
| 08:23.15 | Fisker- | as far as i know |
| 08:23.16 | Thunder_Child | you will go blind |
| 08:23.19 | Torhal | PandaPorn! |
| 08:23.25 | Thunder_Child | worse |
| 08:23.32 | End | Jamash: yeah, that's probably true |
| 08:23.45 | End | although sometimes it seems like just about anything can be patented |
| 08:23.49 | Tekkub | so Zoot, how you liking all this drama? |
| 08:23.58 | Tekkub | have an interesting day at work? |
| 08:24.03 | Shirik | It was just a random thought I had; carry on. I'm debating what to do, since I might have some free time this summer. |
| 08:24.27 | Shirik | Here's the real fun part though: |
| 08:24.38 | Fisker- | nooooooooooooo |
| 08:24.40 | Shirik | When does a program like this become not a program and instead become art |
| 08:25.09 | Shirik | It is arguable, I think, that art is just an algorithmic display of various pieces put together to make one product |
| 08:25.20 | End | programs are subject to copyright, just like art. but you can't copyright the brush you used to paint the painting |
| 08:25.23 | Jamash | http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/piet.html |
| 08:25.32 | Shirik | you can patent the brush |
| 08:25.52 | End | true, and Jamash is probably right, you can probably patent the language too |
| 08:26.10 | Fisker- | i said it first ;_; |
| 08:26.12 | Shirik | funny thing is |
| 08:26.17 | End | Fisker-: whatever, nobody likes you! |
| 08:26.20 | Shirik | I probably have signed some agreement that says I can't make this program |
| 08:26.26 | Shirik | even if I could have legally done so |
| 08:26.26 | End | possibly |
| 08:26.33 | End | damn NDAs? |
| 08:26.42 | Shirik | NDAs, non-competes, all that kind of stuff |
| 08:26.45 | Shirik | working on this car |
| 08:26.58 | Shirik | NI is one of our biggest sponsors; we have literally access to every piece of software they make |
| 08:27.00 | Shirik | ... which is a lot |
| 08:27.11 | Jamash | [01:21] [Jamash] you might be able to patent the language though |
| 08:27.14 | Shirik | They've also given us 2 $500k simulators |
| 08:27.19 | End | Jamash: ok, I finally looked at that, and that's pretty silly :P |
| 08:27.37 | Jamash | End: isn't it though? |
| 08:28.01 | End | huh |
| 08:29.02 | Fisker- | You're not working on any car that's going to europe right Shirik ? |
| 08:29.08 | Shirik | That being said |
| 08:29.15 | Fisker- | Else i'll have to sign that life insurance policy |
| 08:29.16 | *** join/#wowuidev isman (n=drag@mlr78-3-88-162-68-235.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 08:29.19 | Shirik | I took a screenshot of that code because, imo, it looked like a subway map |
| 08:29.24 | Shirik | am I the only one that feels that way? |
| 08:29.26 | End | lol |
| 08:29.29 | Antiarc | I have to stop looking at the UI forums. It is not helping my nerdrage. |
| 08:29.38 | End | it does look like one |
| 08:29.49 | DWSR | Anyone here play on US-Nazjatar? |
| 08:32.14 | Shirik | End: It brings a whole new meaning to "spaghetti code" |
| 08:32.53 | End | I think I see some meatballs in there too |
| 08:33.04 | Wraithan | y'all are making me hungry, cut it out |
| 08:33.14 | Shirik | Spaghetti code! http://forums.ni.com/ni/attachments/ni/170/274928/1/Example_BD.png |
| 08:33.14 | End | You can't have your code and eat it too |
| 08:33.56 | Jamash | I was expecting actual spaghetti, Shirik |
| 08:33.58 | Shirik | (Yes, that's impossible to read, even by someone as knowledgable about labview as I am) |
| 08:33.59 | Jamash | you let me down |
| 08:34.05 | Shirik | sorry Jamash :( |
| 08:34.20 | *** join/#wowuidev Vangual (n=bah@pdpc/supporter/active/vangual) |
| 08:39.13 | klip | lol, just read mmo. another BS from Blizz this week from my PoV. They just went crazy or what |
| 08:39.46 | Jamash | holy crap, Parrot just reached 1.0.0 |
| 08:39.56 | Shirik | unpossible |
| 08:39.58 | klip | really it seems like its time to switch to another mmo |
| 08:40.06 | klip | game |
| 08:40.10 | Tekkub | switch away! |
| 08:40.20 | klip | :p |
| 08:40.34 | Shirik | klip: Suffice to say, we've already had this "bashing in" conversation. However, if you're going to discuss this issue here, I'm not going to stop you, but keep it to constructive discussion and not meaningless flamebait. |
| 08:40.37 | Tekkub | was nice knowin' ya for the last 30 second |
| 08:40.38 | Tekkub | :P |
| 08:41.14 | Tekkub | how is it that Shirik always manages to say what I meant if I wasn't an asshole? |
| 08:41.20 | End | I dunno |
| 08:41.26 | End | maybe he's a wizard |
| 08:41.27 | Jamash | transporter accident |
| 08:41.39 | Shirik | Believe it or not, I was a community relations manager for another game for a while |
| 08:41.46 | End | I see... |
| 08:41.48 | Shirik | s/manager/officer/ |
| 08:41.55 | Shirik | you get a lot of practice |
| 08:42.03 | Tekkub | now you're just making shit up |
| 08:42.29 | Shirik | Game's already shut down because of moronic publishers. RF Online. I think some other publisher bought it though. |
| 08:43.25 | Tekkub | mmmhummmm |
| 08:43.34 | klip | Shirik: sure, I just wanted to say that its a bullshit. that's enought, I don't have time to sit here anyway :) |
| 08:43.40 | klip | enough* |
| 08:44.11 | Shirik | Suffice to say, though |
| 08:44.37 | Shirik | I'm impressed with WoW's CMs because I have no idea how they deal with the amount of shit they take every day. |
| 08:44.50 | Shirik | RF Online had nowhere near even 1% of the people they deal with |
| 08:44.53 | End | they're robots |
| 08:45.01 | Tekkub | they're dead inside |
| 08:45.04 | Shirik | lol |
| 08:45.15 | Jamash | they need about ten times as many CMs as they have |
| 08:45.15 | End | they're dead presidential robots |
| 08:45.19 | Tekkub | you KNOW it's the only possible explanation |
| 08:45.21 | End | (inside) |
| 08:45.21 | klip | Add-ons must be free of charge. |
| 08:45.23 | Jamash | dead kennedys? |
| 08:45.30 | klip | damn, sorry |
| 08:45.36 | klip | missclick |
| 08:45.41 | Shirik | And then there's Cairenn |
| 08:45.50 | End | she's a robot too |
| 08:45.58 | Shirik | who deals with just as much shit and still manages a smile somehow |
| 08:46.27 | Cairenn | I do NOT! how dare you spread such malicious rumours! |
| 08:46.41 | Jamash | A wild Cairenn appears! |
| 08:46.42 | Cairenn | :) |
| 08:46.51 | Tekkub | I don't think caireen puts up with even a fraction of what they do |
| 08:47.09 | Jamash | goddamnit I don't even play pokemon, why is this in my vocabulary |
| 08:47.21 | Shirik | Hey, I played pokemon |
| 08:47.24 | Shirik | I had red |
| 08:47.27 | Shirik | red was better |
| 08:47.44 | Shirik | I was pro too |
| 08:47.46 | Tekkub | the truth about pokemon: http://www.johnnywander.com/node/133 |
| 08:48.03 | Tekkub | I stole red from my friend back in HS |
| 08:48.06 | Shirik | that's awesome Tekkub |
| 08:48.12 | Tekkub | never gave it back ^^ |
| 08:48.26 | Shirik | My friend still has my Super Smash Brothers |
| 08:48.33 | Shirik | but we still go to his house and play it |
| 08:48.37 | Shirik | over summer or whatever |
| 08:48.39 | Shirik | or christmas |
| 08:48.50 | Shirik | I don't own an N64 anymore so, not really a purpose to me taking it back |
| 08:48.51 | Jamash | in australia you can do both |
| 08:49.01 | Shirik | >< |
| 08:49.07 | Shirik | Isn't it still winter in australia? |
| 08:49.08 | Shirik | Just hot? |
| 08:49.14 | Tekkub | I wonder if my mom still has my SNES |
| 08:49.14 | Shirik | I didn't think they reversed the seasons |
| 08:49.15 | End | lol, that comic reminds me of what one of my friends did for his final project for java in high school |
| 08:49.19 | Tekkub | I miss Mario Cart |
| 08:49.20 | End | he did histomon |
| 08:49.26 | End | you could catch presidents and stuff |
| 08:50.20 | Shirik | rofl |
| 08:50.20 | Tekkub | DS isn't quite the same, and I never bought a Wii for MC when I found out battle mode got nerft |
| 08:50.20 | Shirik | I never played it beyond N64, sadly |
| 08:50.20 | Shirik | And the only game I have for Wii is guitar hero |
| 08:50.20 | Tekkub | I played SNES one a ton, then never again till my DS |
| 08:50.21 | Shirik | >.> |
| 08:50.21 | Shirik | <.< |
| 08:50.21 | Jamash | Mario Kart DS is awesome |
| 08:50.23 | Tekkub | never had a N64 or Cube |
| 08:50.34 | Jamash | wait, you have guitar hero for wii? |
| 08:50.34 | Tekkub | or Wii :P |
| 08:50.57 | Jamash | I'm a raging nintendo fanboy and I still wouldn't buy guitar hero for wii |
| 08:51.15 | Shirik | why not? |
| 08:51.24 | Jamash | fewer songs, less / no DLC |
| 08:51.29 | Shirik | I can't play DDR |
| 08:51.33 | Shirik | It's the next best thing |
| 08:51.36 | Shirik | I love DDr |
| 08:51.42 | Shirik | but I don't want to piss off the people below me |
| 08:51.42 | Zootfizzle | On a completely unrelated note, I really like the gamerdna quiz I found in somebody's signature :P |
| 08:51.44 | Tekkub | I wouldn't buy guitar hero for the anything :P |
| 08:51.55 | Shirik | Zootfizzle: I just removed mine about a week ago :( |
| 08:52.06 | Shirik | Sadly, the fundraising is over, but it was an interesting quiz |
| 08:52.17 | Shirik | I showed up was 1980s, actually |
| 08:52.24 | Shirik | which doesn't surprise me, I still have my original game boy |
| 08:52.26 | Jamash | Shirik: http://www.ohgizmo.com/2006/01/24/palmtop-controllers-for-dance-dance-revolution/ |
| 08:52.27 | Shirik | the huge brick |
| 08:52.39 | Shirik | not the same Jamash! |
| 08:52.47 | nevcairiel | I have one of those still too, but i'm not sure it still works =P |
| 08:52.49 | Shirik | It's more fun when you actually play |
| 08:52.51 | Tekkub | meh I'll do the stupid quiz even though I hate those things |
| 08:52.54 | Jamash | stepmania is pretty cool |
| 08:52.59 | Shirik | Again |
| 08:53.04 | Shirik | no movement = no fun |
| 08:53.16 | Shirik | Challenge should not only be timing and coordination, but also heart rate |
| 08:53.25 | Shirik | it's the only way I can beat those guys that are like 300 lbs and play games all day |
| 08:53.26 | Zootfizzle | Also, anybody know if there's a TW style LotRD host for Windows? :P |
| 08:53.51 | Shirik | LotRD? |
| 08:53.54 | Shirik | Is this another BBS? |
| 08:54.08 | Zootfizzle | Yes, it's the one I didn't buy when I was 13 |
| 08:54.11 | Wraithan | Ledgend of the red dragon |
| 08:54.14 | Jamash | Legend of the Red Dot? |
| 08:54.15 | Wraithan | er |
| 08:54.28 | Shirik | TW is my first one, truth be told |
| 08:54.32 | Wraithan | though you didn't say the t |
| 08:54.36 | Wraithan | LORD is what it was called |
| 08:54.49 | Shirik | Well pronouncing Lotrd is rather difficult |
| 08:54.56 | Jamash | I've done MUDs but not BBS games |
| 08:55.05 | Wraithan | LORD, MajorMUD, TW2002, lots of those ones |
| 08:55.12 | Wraithan | My dad ran a bbs back in the day |
| 08:55.17 | Zootfizzle | You're right Wraithan xD |
| 08:55.31 | Wraithan | I know I am lol |
| 08:55.34 | Wraithan | I used to play it |
| 08:55.39 | Zootfizzle | You're wrong Wraithan! |
| 08:55.57 | Zootfizzle | :P |
| 08:55.59 | Jamash | ~trout Zootfizzle |
| 08:56.00 | purl | ACTION slaps Zootfizzle around a bit with a large trout! |
| 08:56.35 | Wraithan | http://bbslist.textfiles.com/503/ Terminal Dysfunction was my Dad's BBS |
| 08:56.44 | Zootfizzle | ROFL |
| 08:56.53 | Zootfizzle | I grew up in Corvallis, OR |
| 08:56.58 | Zootfizzle | I probably got in trouble for connecting to your Dad's BBS |
| 08:57.00 | Wraithan | Portland |
| 08:57.05 | Zootfizzle | Because it was long distance |
| 08:57.09 | *** join/#wowuidev Gotai (n=thewill@ip503d59c0.speed.planet.nl) |
| 08:57.13 | Jamash | secrets are revealed! |
| 08:57.37 | Wraithan | Going to have to email that to my parents they will get a kick out of that |
| 08:57.46 | Torhal | Zootfizzle: Remember Land of Devastation? |
| 08:58.28 | Shirik | The oldest game I remember playing was nettrek :( |
| 08:58.28 | Tekkub | yea that poll was stupid |
| 08:58.36 | Shirik | nettrek was awesome though |
| 08:58.39 | Tekkub | Zootfizzle, I want a 10 minute credit for that |
| 08:58.48 | Shirik | Tekkub :( |
| 08:58.53 | Wraithan | Y'all remember ZZT? |
| 08:58.59 | Shirik | ZZ top? |
| 08:59.12 | Jamash | ZZT the DOS game? |
| 08:59.19 | Wraithan | yeah |
| 08:59.25 | Jamash | Yes. |
| 08:59.28 | Shirik | Oh wait, I know a game I played a lot |
| 08:59.29 | Tekkub | Shirik, you try to apply a stupid label it "I had an SNES and then never played games again until FFXI and WoW" |
| 08:59.33 | Shirik | "Where in the world is carmen sandiego" |
| 08:59.44 | Shirik | I never had an SNES |
| 08:59.53 | Tekkub | I remember that weird ass gameshow they made of that |
| 08:59.54 | jnwhiteh | holy shit |
| 08:59.58 | jnwhiteh | 14 pages in 8 hours? |
| 09:00.03 | Shirik | 14 pages of what? |
| 09:00.06 | Tekkub | with the creepy singers |
| 09:00.17 | jnwhiteh | new pages in the thread on the forums |
| 09:00.23 | nevcairiel | lol |
| 09:00.24 | Shirik | on the UI forums? I'm avoiding that one |
| 09:00.25 | Jamash | ZZT was developed by Tim Sweeney? |
| 09:00.28 | Shirik | I'm only watching wowi's |
| 09:00.29 | Wraithan | I played the shit out of ZZT back in the Dos days |
| 09:00.36 | Wraithan | Jamash: sounds right? |
| 09:00.37 | Tekkub | jnwhiteh, don't play dumb, we figured out that cog is your alter-ego |
| 09:00.39 | Jamash | Of Epic? Later of Unreal? |
| 09:00.41 | Jamash | zomg |
| 09:00.48 | Shirik | they did jnwhiteh |
| 09:00.53 | Shirik | I promise I didn't tell them |
| 09:01.19 | jnwhiteh | yeah, that's not even remotely funny =/ |
| 09:01.43 | Tekkub | I'm serious :P |
| 09:01.49 | jnwhiteh | so am I |
| 09:01.49 | Tekkub | he argues EXACTLY like you |
| 09:02.01 | jnwhiteh | That really bothers me |
| 09:02.07 | jnwhiteh | that you actually believe that |
| 09:02.18 | Tekkub | also I hear he likes dick |
| 09:02.25 | Tekkub | *hides* |
| 09:02.29 | Jamash | :-o |
| 09:02.36 | Tekkub | but no, he does argue just like you :P |
| 09:02.52 | jnwhiteh | Tekkub: without being rude, what exactly do you mean by that? |
| 09:03.09 | Tekkub | mostly the tone he takes with people that disagree |
| 09:03.21 | Fisker- | lets harass jnwhiteh |
| 09:03.23 | jnwhiteh | then I'm really offended |
| 09:03.26 | Tekkub | he also has a love for the "quote one line, reply to it, repeat" stuff |
| 09:03.50 | jnwhiteh | Then either I've misrepresented myself or you have a terrible impression of the way I engage in discourse |
| 09:04.13 | Tekkub | probably the latter |
| 09:04.29 | Tekkub | you always come off as a stubborn ass to me |
| 09:04.35 | Tekkub | ^^ |
| 09:04.56 | Tekkub | especially when you think you know you're right, even if you are |
| 09:05.08 | jnwhiteh | I can be stubborn and I can get upset.. and on occasion (albeit very rarely) have I said things that people consider personally hurtful or insulting |
| 09:05.26 | jnwhiteh | But if you read the things that he's been saying, I have never _EVER_ been that hostile, nasty or self-righteous |
| 09:05.47 | Tekkub | I actually stopped reading cog's crap hours ago |
| 09:05.52 | Tekkub | so I don't know how far he took it |
| 09:06.14 | jnwhiteh | where he started was beyond where I end most arguments. |
| 09:06.55 | DWSR | Everyone has their breaking point. You obviously reached his. |
| 09:07.06 | Tekkub | I didn't reach it |
| 09:07.07 | Tekkub | he did |
| 09:07.09 | Shirik | jnwhiteh, you're reading too much in between the lines; it was a joke :) |
| 09:07.15 | Tekkub | but yea, he kinda... snapped |
| 09:07.21 | jnwhiteh | I asked if it was.. he said it wasn't |
| 09:07.26 | Tekkub | Shirik, mostly :P |
| 09:07.31 | jnwhiteh | I'm not upset, but I consider it unfortunate that such a comparison is being made |
| 09:07.38 | Tekkub | I am serious that the style is the same |
| 09:07.51 | jnwhiteh | and I know tekkub well enough to know that a.) he believes a lot of what he's saying, but not enough to argue it.. and b.) that he loves pushing my buttons =) |
| 09:08.01 | jnwhiteh | there _may_ be similarities |
| 09:08.07 | jnwhiteh | but please don't take the comparison beyond that |
| 09:08.33 | Tekkub | see now, it's probably less of an alter-ego thing |
| 09:08.40 | Tekkub | and more of a "were-cog" thing |
| 09:08.49 | Tekkub | because you obviously don't retain memory of it |
| 09:08.51 | Fisker- | wait what, you know Tekkub enough to know that he..something? |
| 09:08.53 | Fisker- | :3 |
| 09:09.25 | jnwhiteh | Tekkub: I have a memory of all of the arguments I've been in in this damn channel, not to mention logs =) |
| 09:09.47 | Shirik | you have a mac |
| 09:09.54 | Shirik | it's probably logging your sleep while it's off |
| 09:10.14 | Shirik | it has a mind of its own o.o |
| 09:10.34 | Tekkub | oh... so cog is a figment of clad's frustrated brain, brought to life by his mac |
| 09:10.41 | Tekkub | that... makes perfect sense |
| 09:11.11 | Fisker- | I had like 1GB of logs at some point |
| 09:11.16 | Fisker- | for irc only :o |
| 09:11.42 | Tekkub | I read back a few years in my IRC logs once and read things I never remembered talking about |
| 09:11.50 | Tekkub | I turned off channel logging that day |
| 09:11.55 | Tekkub | never turned it back on |
| 09:13.20 | Fisker- | I don't dare read them |
| 09:13.46 | Torhal | Afraid you'll start screaming "Dirty damn troll!"? |
| 09:13.48 | Tekkub | you should grep them, give me a count of how many times I've referred to you as "fister" |
| 09:13.54 | Jamash | [11:29] <Tekkub> I can get porn free thanks |
| 09:14.06 | Jamash | my first tekkub log entry from this channel |
| 09:14.15 | *** join/#wowuidev MoonWolf (n=MoonWolf@dhcp-077-250-125-249.chello.nl) |
| 09:14.17 | Tekkub | bah, find a better one |
| 09:14.41 | Jamash | [23:55] <Tekkub> o/~ now dance fucker dance, man he never had a chance o/~ |
| 09:14.52 | Tekkub | that's just music :P |
| 09:17.41 | *** join/#wowuidev Kalroth (n=kalroth@2506ds1-hj.0.fullrate.dk) |
| 09:18.43 | Jamash | [01:15] <Tekkub> I won't go near texas, not even for bacon |
| 09:18.57 | Tekkub | that's a better one |
| 09:21.47 | jnwhiteh | my sleeping in was 9am |
| 09:21.48 | jnwhiteh | how lame |
| 09:22.02 | *** join/#wowuidev sioraiocht (n=sioraioc@78-86-82-152.zone2.bethere.co.uk) |
| 09:24.31 | Antiarc | Well |
| 09:24.43 | Antiarc | Since we're already in murky legal territory today |
| 09:24.44 | Antiarc | http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7954629.stm |
| 09:25.03 | Shirik | .. wow |
| 09:25.10 | Jamash | huh |
| 09:25.14 | nevcairiel | wtf |
| 09:25.23 | Shirik | it has its own exchange rate? |
| 09:25.44 | Fisker- | oooooooooooooooooooold |
| 09:25.46 | zenzelezz | and people thought Second Life was bad |
| 09:26.01 | Jamash | the novel starts with a bank heist inside an MMO |
| 09:26.31 | Shirik | Is this a U.S. based game? |
| 09:26.43 | Shirik | oh no sweedish |
| 09:27.31 | Antiarc | Bailout the MMOs! |
| 09:27.39 | Shirik | rofl |
| 09:28.31 | Shirik | Can you think about that |
| 09:28.36 | Shirik | if a game really became an economy? |
| 09:28.43 | Shirik | Had its own exchange rate |
| 09:28.51 | Shirik | you can put money into the game, take it out |
| 09:28.54 | Jamash | I am not paying taxes on my purpelz |
| 09:29.03 | Jamash | that is not a thing that will happen |
| 09:29.06 | Shirik | The game lives on the fact that its economy is thriving |
| 09:29.34 | Shirik | like, aside from the fact that everything is electrical instead of physical |
| 09:29.42 | Shirik | What IS the difference between a country and that? |
| 09:30.00 | Shirik | I... think I've lost my mind at 5:30 AM |
| 09:30.11 | Fisker- | bah |
| 09:30.38 | Antiarc | http://explainthisimage.com/unexplainable-photo/739-it-39-s-an-assassination-plot-against-richard-gere |
| 09:32.20 | Shirik | I think it's an assassination plot against Richard Gere |
| 09:33.05 | Shirik | based off the URL |
| 09:33.09 | Shirik | who's Richard Gere? |
| 09:34.08 | Jamash | some guy |
| 09:34.13 | Jamash | http://www.snopes.com/risque/homosex/gerbil.asp |
| 09:36.32 | Shirik | wtf |
| 09:36.38 | Shirik | is this really what you guys come up with at 5 AM? |
| 09:36.43 | Shirik | I'm glad I'm rarely up this late |
| 09:36.51 | Jamash | it's only 2:36 am here |
| 09:37.05 | Jamash | wait, that means I need to do inscription research |
| 09:42.33 | Shirik|zZz | time to try to regain some slight portion of sanity |
| 09:42.34 | Shirik|zZz | bbl |
| 09:45.16 | nevcairiel | You won't win over insanity |
| 09:45.32 | *** join/#wowuidev Slakah (n=Slakah@5ad5da43.bb.sky.com) |
| 09:50.00 | Lukian | http://explainthisimage.com/unexplainable-photo/682-mr-ed-likes-pussy |
| 10:04.01 | *** join/#wowuidev Nargiddley (n=nargiddl@125-239-1-127.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) |
| 10:06.06 | Wobin | http://www.explainthisimage.com/unexplainable-photo/753-i-39-m-celebrating-that-my-son-is-3-years-14-days-15-hours-9-minutes-and-2 |
| 10:06.10 | Wobin | The Cake Is A Pi |
| 10:06.40 | Wobin | It's actually a ridiculous site |
| 10:06.45 | Wobin | They ask "Explain this Picture" |
| 10:06.49 | Wobin | but don't give anywhere to explain it |
| 10:06.59 | Wobin | oh my bad. I didn't scroll down =P |
| 10:08.32 | *** join/#wowuidev Ethelo (n=gamle-go@hus134a.bobbnet.com) |
| 10:08.39 | *** join/#wowuidev Lothaer (n=jamiecoo@115-166-34-116.ip.adam.com.au) |
| 10:08.39 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+v Lothaer] by ChanServ |
| 10:09.52 | Ethelo | anybody know where to find the Dewdrop-2.0 documentation? |
| 10:10.23 | Lothaer | said day for mod authors huh |
| 10:10.30 | Antiarc | Not the best. |
| 10:10.58 | *** join/#wowuidev Zor (i=xtzgzore@0x3e42c894.adsl.cybercity.dk) |
| 10:10.59 | Lothaer | i think carbonite may become obselete |
| 10:12.11 | jnwhiteh | it really depends on how you look at things *shrug* |
| 10:12.45 | jnwhiteh | I don't think this is a sad day for mod authors, because I don't feel like my rights are being infringed upon |
| 10:13.01 | nevcairiel | I agree, i never did, nor would i, violate any of those rules |
| 10:13.06 | nevcairiel | so shrug |
| 10:13.11 | Antiarc | You don't think Blizzard putting restrictions on what you do with your mods outside of WoW infringes your rights? |
| 10:13.24 | Slakah | I don't think they are |
| 10:13.27 | jnwhiteh | Antiarc: they don't place any restrictions on what my mods can do outside WoW |
| 10:13.30 | jnwhiteh | in any way that I can see. |
| 10:13.32 | Antiarc | "You can't charge to download your addon" |
| 10:13.39 | Antiarc | You can't charge for any service related to your addon. |
| 10:13.48 | jnwhiteh | which is designed to be run in game |
| 10:13.52 | Antiarc | So? |
| 10:13.55 | Lothaer | and the code must be visable |
| 10:14.01 | Lothaer | as in not obfuscated |
| 10:14.01 | jnwhiteh | yes |
| 10:14.02 | nevcairiel | I'm an open source guy, i would never want to charge for my stuff |
| 10:14.06 | nevcairiel | it just goes against my believe :P |
| 10:14.11 | jnwhiteh | Points |
| 10:14.27 | Antiarc | nevcairiel: I agree in principle, but I have a big issue with Blizzard presuming to usurp my control over how I distribute my work. |
| 10:14.34 | jnwhiteh | 1.) They are protecting their property by placing restrictions on addons that are designed to operate within their property. |
| 10:14.42 | Antiarc | That doesn't make sense. |
| 10:14.51 | Slakah | I don't think they have the grounds to take legal action. |
| 10:14.54 | Antiarc | Preventing charging for addons has nothing to do with WoW |
| 10:15.01 | Lothaer | you can still get donations, but can only be displayed on your website or the distribution sites |
| 10:15.05 | jnwhiteh | Slakah: that's for a court to decide, and that's PRECISELY the point |
| 10:15.07 | jnwhiteh | this is a POLICY |
| 10:15.07 | Lothaer | just not ingame or on the wow forums |
| 10:15.09 | jnwhiteh | not a law |
| 10:15.12 | Antiarc | Yeah, and we all know how many people hit an individual website for each addon |
| 10:15.14 | jnwhiteh | no one has to agree to it to write addons |
| 10:15.37 | jnwhiteh | but the fact of the matter is, they are making a statement about what they consider to be appropriate, protecting their interests. |
| 10:15.45 | Slakah | yep |
| 10:15.45 | jnwhiteh | Its up to you as an author to protect yours if you feel you are being infringed upon |
| 10:15.52 | jnwhiteh | the same way that they are |
| 10:15.59 | Cairenn | (2009-03-21 06:13:36) Antiarc: You can't charge for any service related to your addon. <== why does everyone keep misreading this one? " or otherwise require some form of monetary compensation to download or access" - the only thing they are saying you can't charge for is access to the mod itself, not to communication between you and your users (for example) |
| 10:16.23 | nevcairiel | yeah you can sell support |
| 10:16.27 | jnwhiteh | Cairenn: its vague enough that its difficult to determine whether or not a private support forum is okay |
| 10:16.32 | Antiarc | "Developers may not...charge for services related to the add-on" |
| 10:16.41 | jnwhiteh | but its clear that you can't have a premium and "free" versions of the mod |
| 10:16.50 | jnwhiteh | support could be considered a service, which is an ambiguity in the policy |
| 10:17.02 | Antiarc | I would consider support a related service, yeah. |
| 10:17.11 | jnwhiteh | they may not, heh |
| 10:17.14 | jnwhiteh | we'll have to see |
| 10:17.17 | Antiarc | Anything stemming from the addon's existence can be interpreted as a related service. |
| 10:17.20 | Cairenn | I read it only as access to the mod, maybe I'm wrong /shrug |
| 10:18.01 | Antiarc | I feel the spirit of the rules is good, but the langauge itself is several orders of magnitude too broad. |
| 10:18.05 | Lothaer | all the donation links on mod sites (ie wowi, eoeui etc) are able to stay |
| 10:18.16 | Antiarc | Plus, restriction of donation information in-game is tacky as hell. |
| 10:18.23 | jnwhiteh | Antiarc: I don't think many people would disagree with you there |
| 10:18.27 | jnwhiteh | on the first point |
| 10:18.29 | Cairenn | clarification would definitely be helpful, yup |
| 10:18.40 | jnwhiteh | the second sucks, but from the language in the policy, i sincerely suspect that's coming from legal and not the UI team =-) |
| 10:18.48 | Cairenn | some of it can so easily be interpreted multiple ways |
| 10:18.52 | Antiarc | Oh, I'll guarantee that the UI team had nothing to do with it |
| 10:18.57 | Antiarc | It's all lawyers being lawyers, heh. |
| 10:19.01 | Kalroth | uh, how many users see the "please donate dialog" ingame and then exit the game to go donate? |
| 10:19.06 | Cairenn | I feel bad for the UI team, honestly |
| 10:19.07 | Lothaer | hey if someone writes a mod in german could that be considered obfuscation? |
| 10:19.11 | Kalroth | I'd bet the number is pretty low |
| 10:19.16 | jnwhiteh | Lothaer: no, you can't change Lua keywords |
| 10:19.17 | jnwhiteh | =0 |
| 10:19.24 | Antiarc | Kalroth: According to the QH guy, in-game donation prompts accounted for 4 out of 5 donations to QH |
| 10:19.28 | Cairenn | cause you know they're taking all the shit for it, when they had no (or very little) actual input into it |
| 10:19.33 | Fisker- | lol |
| 10:19.35 | Antiarc | Cairenn: Yeah, agreed. |
| 10:19.44 | Kalroth | Antiarc: How does he measure that? |
| 10:19.49 | Antiarc | Kalroth: *shrug* |
| 10:19.50 | Fisker- | google designer quit because he couldn't be bothered discussing what shade of blue to use |
| 10:19.57 | Fisker- | or how big in pixels a border should be |
| 10:20.00 | Fisker- | haha |
| 10:20.07 | Kalroth | Fisker-: 1 pixel! |
| 10:20.10 | Antiarc | Hell, Slouken is the SDL guy, I'm pretty sure he has a good grasp on OSS and author's rights :P |
| 10:20.31 | jnwhiteh | Unless the QH guy had different paypal references for in-game versus out-of-game I consider his evidence dubious |
| 10:20.33 | jnwhiteh | but *shrug* |
| 10:20.38 | jnwhiteh | yes, it will affect some addons |
| 10:20.42 | jnwhiteh | it will affect many authors |
| 10:21.02 | Antiarc | I'm just distressed that there's such a broad assumption of control. |
| 10:21.08 | Antiarc | It doesn't actually affect me in practicality |
| 10:21.29 | nevcairiel | The whole ToU/ToS can ban anyone on trivial reasons, they still don't do it =P |
| 10:21.30 | Antiarc | But it makes me really jittery to see a power-grab attempt like this happen. |
| 10:21.32 | Kalroth | I paid $25 for Omen2 on BuyFromAntiarc.com last week! |
| 10:21.36 | Antiarc | :O |
| 10:21.45 | jnwhiteh | the problem as I see it is that we're under the control of a policy that's as harsh as the iPhone App Store policy.. without Blizzard actually having control over the distribution mechanism. |
| 10:21.49 | Antiarc | Man, you got ripped off, Omen2 hasn't worked since November! |
| 10:21.52 | jnwhiteh | so it makes it a bit weird |
| 10:21.55 | Cairenn | I just hate how badly this is ... damn, what's the word? polarizing? ... the community ... :( |
| 10:21.55 | Kalroth | D'oh |
| 10:22.03 | Lothaer | so what other mods are now in direct opposition of blizzards new pov? i know about carbonite, the Bang mods. Bejeweled and GH |
| 10:22.07 | jnwhiteh | I suspect there would be MUCH less issue if we all had to agree to this to get the SDK, blah blah blah. |
| 10:22.08 | Lothaer | QH*, any others? |
| 10:22.14 | Antiarc | All Ace2 mods, heh. |
| 10:22.19 | Antiarc | And all Rock mods |
| 10:22.19 | Cairenn | Lothaer: all ... ^^ |
| 10:22.20 | Kalroth | Lothaer: Old RDX system |
| 10:22.27 | Cairenn | nUI |
| 10:22.28 | Antiarc | nUI |
| 10:22.30 | Antiarc | Curses! |
| 10:22.30 | nevcairiel | only ace2/rock mods that actually supplied the silly donate box |
| 10:22.32 | jnwhiteh | but the fact is its that sort of agreement, without them actually controlling the distribution mechanism. |
| 10:22.42 | Cairenn | all of ckk's (see Ace2 & Rock) |
| 10:23.09 | Lothaer | the donate box is allowed |
| 10:23.14 | Antiarc | Honestly, if they reverted point #1 and implemented an official means for addons to register donation information, I think the problem would be fixed. |
| 10:23.16 | nevcairiel | no its not |
| 10:23.22 | nevcairiel | you are not allowed to show any donation info ingame |
| 10:23.33 | Antiarc | "Add-ons may not include requests for donations. We recognize the immense amount of effort and resources that go into developing an add-on; however, such requests should be limited to the add-on website or distribution site and should not appear in the game. " |
| 10:23.39 | Antiarc | See the latter part of that clause. |
| 10:23.42 | Cairenn | Lothaer: no it isn't |
| 10:23.43 | Antiarc | "such requests should be limited to the add-on website or distribution site and should not appear in the game." |
| 10:23.47 | Cairenn | ^^ |
| 10:23.48 | Lothaer | such requests should be limited to the add-on website or distribution site |
| 10:23.57 | Lothaer | wowi = distribution site |
| 10:24.00 | jnwhiteh | Lothaer: they are referring to the in-game donation box, |
| 10:24.03 | jnwhiteh | so no its not allowed |
| 10:24.04 | Antiarc | we're talking about in-game donation boxes. |
| 10:24.23 | Lothaer | ahh yeah that one is not but the plz donate on the mod sites is ok |
| 10:24.35 | Antiarc | buttons on mod sites are okay, yeah |
| 10:24.42 | Antiarc | But really, how much comparative traffic do those get? |
| 10:24.54 | Antiarc | People use updaters because they hate tracking down mods in the browser |
| 10:24.58 | jnwhiteh | hrm |
| 10:25.00 | DWSR | How is Bejeweled against Blizzard's new UI terms? |
| 10:25.03 | Antiarc | If you want to reach an audience, you do it in-game. |
| 10:25.03 | jnwhiteh | i can't account merge with my battle.net account |
| 10:25.09 | jnwhiteh | DWSR: Obfuscation due to LuaSrcDiet |
| 10:25.09 | Lothaer | tbh when i see a plz donate in game i just press esc and continue playing |
| 10:25.12 | Cairenn | DWSR: obfuscated |
| 10:25.24 | DWSR | Oh, why? |
| 10:25.25 | Cairenn | ( I think) |
| 10:25.31 | Slakah | someone told me they use a program to reduce the amount of memory used |
| 10:25.38 | jnwhiteh | LuaSrcDiet, yes. |
| 10:25.50 | jnwhiteh | removes comments, whitespace, etc. |
| 10:25.57 | nevcairiel | Thats a silly argument if you ask me, it only cuts down on parsing time by a very marginal amount |
| 10:26.15 | jnwhiteh | i thikn it was also to protect the code to the game |
| 10:26.20 | Slakah | imo it would be nice if they supplied a full fat bejeweled with the cut down one |
| 10:26.23 | jnwhiteh | without oresorted to underhanded tactics like the other developers. |
| 10:26.24 | Antiarc | Citing obfuscation as valid for the purposes of speeding up loading is silly |
| 10:26.31 | Lothaer | yeah as Moongaze got paid to make it :D |
| 10:26.33 | Antiarc | It's valid for Javascript where you have to download the full file on each request |
| 10:26.40 | Antiarc | But not so much for local addons |
| 10:26.48 | Cairenn | if it's just removing comments, whitespace,etc - it'll be fine - if it's /obfuscated/ it won't be |
| 10:26.52 | Slakah | so you can actually tell what on earth is going on. |
| 10:27.04 | Antiarc | Removing whitespace is pretty obfuscate-y |
| 10:27.13 | DWSR | No it's not. |
| 10:27.19 | DWSR | Learn2read code. |
| 10:27.26 | Cairenn | DWSR: ... |
| 10:27.26 | Antiarc | It makes it much harder to read :P |
| 10:27.30 | Slakah | they rename all local variables to 1 letter. |
| 10:27.53 | Antiarc | I'm aware of what traditional obfuscation does |
| 10:28.12 | jnwhiteh | LuaSrcDiet reduces the size of Lua 5.1.x source files by aggressively removing all unnecessary whitespace and comments, optimizing constant tokens, and renaming local variables to shorter names. |
| 10:28.19 | Cairenn | DWSR: stop being deliberately offensive in your responses, please see the channel topic |
| 10:28.23 | krka | however, there exists plenty of obfuscation tools whos primary purpose is to speed things up |
| 10:28.26 | jnwhiteh | which is a form of obfuscation |
| 10:28.29 | krka | Proguard comes to mind |
| 10:28.33 | krka | though that's java, not lua |
| 10:28.34 | jnwhiteh | especially considering the scale we're talking about |
| 10:28.47 | DWSR | I still don't see them really doing a whole lot about the Bejeweled addon though |
| 10:28.52 | DWSR | I mean, it's just a game. Big deal. |
| 10:29.03 | jnwhiteh | you have to be consistent in your treatment of a policy |
| 10:29.08 | Antiarc | The policy doesn't make any provisions for the nature of the addon. |
| 10:29.11 | jnwhiteh | that's why policies are written the way they are |
| 10:29.15 | jnwhiteh | nor should it |
| 10:29.26 | jnwhiteh | they're not going to go around suing people |
| 10:29.32 | Slakah | all I'm saying is it would be nice if they supplied an easy to read version, with the cut down one. |
| 10:29.32 | krka | does this mean that tools that inline some Lua function calls are banned? |
| 10:29.34 | jnwhiteh | but I do suspect some authors will be getting in contact with Blizzard |
| 10:29.52 | krka | massive inlining could be considered obfuscation |
| 10:30.18 | nevcairiel | krka: as long as its still readable lua code and not removed all spaces, comments, shortend var names .. |
| 10:30.23 | Kalroth | krka's code is considered obfuscation! |
| 10:32.13 | DWSR | I leave you all with 1 final thought. |
| 10:32.17 | DWSR | Blizzard wins, you lose! |
| 10:32.27 | DWSR | :P |
| 10:32.29 | DWSR | Night all. |
| 10:32.41 | DWSR | You'll probably all still be talking about this when I'm concious again |
| 10:32.55 | DWSR | Holy shit it's 6:30am...Good morning? |
| 10:34.43 | krka | can we atleast presume that obfuscation is ok if we also include the original source and the toolchain required to obfuscate it? |
| 10:34.51 | krka | or atleast instructions or scripts for doing it |
| 10:34.55 | Fisker- | i'm on irc |
| 10:34.59 | Zootfizzle | krka: Yes |
| 10:35.01 | Fisker- | everyone look at me cause i'm on irc |
| 10:35.18 | Fisker- | night Zoot|zZz |
| 10:35.22 | krka | Zootfizzle: right, that's reasonable, but the policy doesn't say |
| 10:36.03 | Fisker- | what would be the point in obfuscating it if you make it easily reversable anyways? |
| 10:37.01 | krka | for speed |
| 10:37.04 | krka | and memory |
| 10:37.26 | nevcairiel | how do you save runtime memory from obfuscation? |
| 10:37.32 | Cairenn | I'd like to think they are talking about deliberate obfuscation |
| 10:37.42 | Cairenn | but again, clarification would be nice |
| 10:40.32 | Xinhuan | nevcairiel, table keys |
| 10:40.38 | Antiarc | You know, an awful lot of people seem to thing that addons are derivative works of WoW, and thus the author has no copyright over it. |
| 10:41.02 | Xinhuan | t["playermoney"] uses more memory than t["pm"] |
| 10:41.08 | Xinhuan | because one string is longer than the other |
| 10:41.25 | Xinhuan | that's an example ;p |
| 10:41.29 | Fisker- | ah come on |
| 10:41.37 | Fisker- | can't possibly call that obfuscating |
| 10:41.37 | Fisker- | :( |
| 10:41.48 | jnwhiteh | Antiarc: I think the people saying that are not in the know |
| 10:42.01 | jnwhiteh | Antiarc: I retain full copyright over my work =) |
| 10:42.03 | Antiarc | jnwhiteh: Oh, they aren't, but it's frightening how many of them are saying that. |
| 10:42.15 | Antiarc | It's a constant argument, either explicitly or implicitly. |
| 10:43.19 | Slakah | Blizzard has been called communist and money hungry in the same thread. |
| 10:44.09 | Antiarc | Heh |
| 10:48.24 | Fisker- | Well it's totally communism |
| 10:48.34 | Fisker- | To implement communism one must first rid itself of capitalism |
| 10:48.42 | Fisker- | But then they forgot the chapter after that |
| 10:48.44 | Fisker- | :D |
| 10:50.20 | Zoot|zZz | I'm sorry, I had to come back |
| 10:50.30 | Antiarc | <PROTECTED> |
| 10:50.42 | Antiarc | Can't sleep, huh? |
| 10:50.57 | Zoot|zZz | When I said yes to krka, it was based on the premise that his obfuscation was Lua inlining if it was clear what you were doing because you provided your actual source and an obvious translation between the two |
| 10:51.11 | Antiarc | aka, a way to deobfuscate the source? |
| 10:51.26 | Zoot|zZz | I don't think anyone could reasonably interpret that as obfuscation |
| 10:51.32 | Zoot|zZz | Which is why I felt I needed to clarify what I said |
| 10:51.38 | Antiarc | The spirit of it is obviously "don't hide the source" |
| 10:52.04 | Zoot|zZz | Not gonna get into anything other than that |
| 10:52.08 | Antiarc | Fair enough :) |
| 10:52.19 | Antiarc | You're brave for venturing even that far, heh :) |
| 10:52.44 | Zoot|zZz | I don't know if brave is the word |
| 10:52.56 | Fisker- | argh |
| 10:53.02 | Antiarc | When it comes to legal stuff, I try to stay tight-lipped, heh. |
| 10:53.04 | Antiarc | Lawyers scare me. |
| 10:53.21 | Fisker- | i am trying to explain someone that knowing an username doesn't result in being hacked |
| 10:53.45 | Fisker- | in reality Zoot|zZz were being monitored Blizzard E-Lawyers who phoned him up :P |
| 10:54.01 | Jamash | Fisker-: Unless your password is "password" |
| 10:54.06 | Antiarc | Fisker-: Tell them to make sure that when they move their computer that the hold the ends of their cables up, so that the data doesn't leak out, because someone could come along with a packet sniffer and read any spilled passwords. |
| 10:54.17 | Cairenn | lol |
| 10:54.29 | Fisker- | You mean a vacuum packet cleaner |
| 10:55.43 | Fisker- | http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=8464846760&sid=1#11 <-blargh ;_; |
| 10:56.34 | Jamash | I have to agree that using emails is less secure than using usernames |
| 10:56.46 | Jamash | How much less secure? I don't know. But less. |
| 10:57.10 | Fisker- | I can agree |
| 10:57.17 | Antiarc | Well here's one problem |
| 10:57.23 | *** join/#wowuidev [draco] (n=drc@brsg-4dbb199e.pool.einsundeins.de) |
| 10:57.41 | Antiarc | Consolidating logins to emails means that the idiots that use the same password for their WoW and email will have an additional route to be compromised by now |
| 10:57.58 | Jamash | Indeed |
| 10:58.10 | Antiarc | ie, I run a website and am unethical, if you sign up I look at your password and email, plug that into WoW, and see if I get a hit. |
| 10:58.25 | Jamash | that's an excellent example |
| 10:58.51 | Fisker- | you could do the same with the username |
| 10:58.56 | Jamash | I use a WoW password that's wholly unrelated to any of my other passwords, but I'm sure not everyone does |
| 10:59.07 | Fisker- | But you're definitely right in the fact that you could easily gain access to his mailbox AND WoW account if he got compromised |
| 10:59.24 | Fisker- | I do manual salting :P |
| 10:59.35 | Fisker- | And secondary password for "high-risk" pages |
| 11:00.09 | Jamash | I use a second email for "high-risk" sites as well |
| 11:00.37 | Antiarc | I use a password manager that generates random 8-12 character passwords for me, heh |
| 11:00.55 | haste | wait |
| 11:00.57 | haste | WAIT |
| 11:00.58 | Jamash | I use a short perl script to grep /usr/dict/words :P |
| 11:01.01 | haste | the world will end today |
| 11:01.06 | Jamash | finally |
| 11:01.06 | Fisker- | fuck it |
| 11:01.09 | Jamash | what took so long |
| 11:01.11 | haste | Fisker- wrote something serious |
| 11:01.20 | haste | How can this be!? |
| 11:01.28 | Fisker- | I'm the fucking joker |
| 11:01.33 | haste | Did you get up on the wrong side of the bed today |
| 11:01.55 | Fisker- | there's a time for being oh so srs, and a time for being serious |
| 11:02.08 | haste | I'm going to go sleep again, so I can dream while we hit the black cloud in the strings of time. |
| 11:02.31 | Jamash | it's the end of the world as we know it |
| 11:02.53 | Jamash | I got an mp3 of that free with a soda. |
| 11:02.59 | Fisker- | http://screenrant.com/wp-content/uploads/heath-ledger-joker-no-makeu.jpg <-srs face |
| 11:03.35 | Jamash | of course they don't mean "no makeup" |
| 11:03.42 | Jamash | they mean "no makeup on top of the makeup" |
| 11:04.24 | Fisker- | :D |
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| 12:06.59 | foxlit | The wowi new PM popup is so helpless |
| 12:07.25 | jnwhiteh | yeah |
| 12:07.26 | jnwhiteh | heh |
| 12:07.29 | jnwhiteh | has had issues forever |
| 12:07.31 | jnwhiteh | so i just ignore it |
| 12:13.45 | foxlit | what, the "qq new addons policy" thread vanished from the US forums? |
| 12:13.57 | Slakah | it's been stickied |
| 12:14.26 | foxlit | Ah. |
| 12:14.35 | Cairenn | foxlit: hmmm? |
| 12:14.44 | foxlit | Nevermind, I just can't find stuff :) |
| 12:15.08 | Cairenn | (2009-03-21 08:06:56) foxlit: The wowi new PM popup is so helpless <== is what I'm "hmm?" ing bout |
| 12:15.11 | Cairenn | about* |
| 12:15.13 | foxlit | ah |
| 12:15.30 | foxlit | "You have a new message. Open it?" Yes. "Open it in a new window?" Yes. "Could not open it in a new window. Get stuffed." |
| 12:15.41 | Cairenn | o.O |
| 12:15.41 | nevcairiel | lol |
| 12:15.44 | foxlit | the quotes are approximate. |
| 12:15.47 | Cairenn | hmmmm |
| 12:16.03 | Cairenn | I don't have popups enabled, so never seen it |
| 12:16.14 | *** join/#wowuidev p3lim (n=p3lim@ti500710a080-4944.bb.online.no) |
| 12:16.14 | foxlit | It's a javascript prompt(), iirc |
| 12:16.41 | Cairenn | will have to poke D.olby about it when he wakes |
| 12:18.42 | zenzelezz | why the .? |
| 12:19.01 | nevcairiel | so she doesn't wake him with an evil ping of death |
| 12:19.19 | zenzelezz | that's silly, IRC is supposed to distract you all the time |
| 12:20.10 | Cairenn | no, I want him to get a decent night's sleep, so he's in good shape to watch the site when he wakes, so I can sleep |
| 12:20.51 | nevcairiel | He really wakes up from an irc ping? |
| 12:21.15 | Cairenn | yup, he does |
| 12:21.24 | Cairenn | so do I if I'm not sound asleep |
| 12:22.00 | Legorol | Cairenn: *pinggggg* good morning! |
| 12:22.03 | Cairenn | hehehe |
| 12:27.59 | Cairenn | luckily for me, although not for you guys, my bedroom is upstairs from where my computer is set up, so if I'm sleeping at all soundly, I don't necessarily hear the pings |
| 12:28.17 | Cairenn | his is in like the room right beside his bedroom or something |
| 12:28.48 | zenzelezz | you guys don't sleep next to your computers? And I considered you civilized :-( |
| 12:29.00 | Ackis | lua> for i=1,1000,1 do print("Sup D.olby!") end |
| 12:29.00 | lua_bot | Ackis: Sup D.olby!, Sup D.olby!, Sup D.olby!, Sup D.olby!, Sup D.olby!, Sup D.olby!, Sup D.olby!, Sup D.olby!, Sup D.olby!, Sup D.olby!, Sup D.olby!, Sup D.olby!, Sup D.olby!, Sup D.olby!, Sup D.olby!, Sup D.olby!, Sup D.olby!, Sup D.olby!, Sup D.olby!, Sup D.olby!, Sup D.olby!, Sup D.olby!, Sup D.olby!, S... (result truncated) |
| 12:29.05 | Ackis | oh hi :P |
| 12:29.13 | Cairenn | lol |
| 12:29.14 | Ackis | (lucky I'm not mean :( ) |
| 12:29.27 | Wraithan | My head is 1-2 feet from my tower when I sleep |
| 12:29.42 | Cairenn | I'd never get any sleep if it was in the same room |
| 12:29.49 | Cairenn | it's bad enough as it is :p |
| 12:29.50 | zenzelezz | "tower", eh... is that what you kids call it these days? |
| 12:29.57 | Ackis | i had it in my room when I was in university |
| 12:30.09 | Ackis | btw has blizzard repealed their draconian policy yet? |
| 12:30.24 | Cairenn | no |
| 12:30.35 | Ackis | ah one could hope |
| 12:30.43 | Wraithan | Um, yeah, they have been called towers for a really long time |
| 12:31.01 | zenzelezz | Wraithan: you need to learn about innuendo :) |
| 12:31.09 | Cairenn | rofl |
| 12:31.24 | Ackis | zenzelezz: I totally didn't get than you were unnuendoing |
| 12:33.45 | Ackis | so we bought sort of a litter for our hamsters... have you ever heard a cat go poop in the litter? well, no we have 3 little hamsters that make the same noise doing that in our living room |
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| 12:54.40 | Anaral | Eww |
| 12:58.39 | Ackis | I was sad that I didn't get a pet for syncing my wow acct to my battlenet one |
| 12:58.43 | Wraithan | Hmm, ret pallies are fun |
| 12:58.47 | Wraithan | Simple but fun |
| 13:01.25 | Ackis | I always knew I was a shithead *snickers* |
| 13:01.49 | Cairenn | lol, no comment ;) |
| 13:02.06 | Ackis | :O |
| 13:02.52 | Ackis | whee! yay!!!! |
| 13:03.03 | Fisker- | i hope Blizzard sues Ackis first |
| 13:03.19 | Ackis | Fisker-: one day I'm getting ops in a channel you're in... one day |
| 13:03.46 | Fisker- | if only |
| 13:03.51 | Ackis | ur mom |
| 13:04.06 | Fisker- | no ur mom :( |
| 13:04.09 | Ackis | no ur mom |
| 13:05.44 | Cairenn | man, there is sweet f all to watch at 9am on a Sat morning |
| 13:05.50 | Cairenn | (on TV) |
| 13:06.12 | Ackis | Cairenn: remember when you used to have cartoons? |
| 13:06.31 | Cairenn | yeah, but the cartoons these days suck :p |
| 13:06.39 | Ackis | aye |
| 13:06.41 | Ackis | I agree |
| 13:06.52 | Ackis | get off my lawn! |
| 13:06.57 | Cairenn | I mean, I don't wanna watch "Rupert", gimme a break |
| 13:07.19 | Cairenn | gimme the roadrunner and the stupid coyote falling off the cliff any day |
| 13:07.38 | Ackis | beep beep |
| 13:09.41 | Wobin | Agreed |
| 13:09.49 | Wobin | cartoons these day suck =( |
| 13:09.55 | Wobin | Tom and Jerry! |
| 13:10.01 | Wobin | Loonie Tunes! |
| 13:10.10 | Wobin | where are all the classics =( |
| 13:10.14 | Industrial | cartoons these days have to have main characters that kids can relate to, resolving problems and dealing with life so that they can learn from the cartoon because anything extra you can cram in their heads is a plus! |
| 13:10.29 | Wobin | Tom and Jerry taught that |
| 13:10.38 | Wobin | (or at least how to flood the kitchen so you can go ice skating) |
| 13:10.46 | Industrial | exactly :p |
| 13:10.51 | Cairenn | hehehe |
| 13:11.18 | Wobin | But seriously, 80% of my classical music education came from warner brothers cartoons =) |
| 13:11.30 | Wobin | (Kill the WAAABBBIT!) |
| 13:13.02 | *** join/#wowuidev Kaso (n=Kaso@78.151.222.20) |
| 13:14.11 | zenzelezz | Wobin: yeah, but look at the result :( |
| 13:14.41 | Wobin | A good grounding in classical music leading to a life of singing as a hobby? =P |
| 13:17.16 | Ackis | you know, blizzard should've bought glidder behind the scenes and just added more spawns like the time-lost drake |
| 13:17.24 | Wobin | And really, cartoons nowadays don't really teach conflict resolution |
| 13:18.19 | Ackis | Wobin: i always resolve my conflicts with an acme anvil |
| 13:18.39 | Wobin | See? Practical use of materials at hand |
| 13:22.44 | zenzelezz | Wobin: well, considering the warmongering leaders of today, the cartoons of years gone by can't have taught much conflict resolution either |
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| 13:45.31 | Wraithan | Even without any decent gear but a hammer (since I power leveled for the last 20 or so levels) my level 41 ret pally is a killing machien |
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| 14:05.58 | Wobin | I'm really impressed at the dps sv hunters can put out |
| 14:06.02 | Wobin | for levelling |
| 14:06.09 | Wobin | I'm beating DKs in damage in instances |
| 14:06.22 | Wobin | (that are 3-5 levels higher) |
| 14:06.30 | Wobin | of course, this could be due to shoddy DKs |
| 14:06.41 | Wobin | but even then, most DKs can do stupid amounts of damage by facerolling |
| 14:07.51 | Wobin | ... of course, the heirloom bow doesn't hurt =) |
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| 14:08.28 | Wraithan | I have a full set of heirloom gear for my priest, need to get some for my paladin |
| 14:09.17 | Wobin | heh, the shoulders I can excuse by saying I'll pass them to my shammy |
| 14:09.20 | Wobin | the bow, not so much |
| 14:09.33 | Wraithan | Was considering going with the PvP weapon because A: I don't have the badges for PvE, and B: I plan on PvPing with this toon eventually |
| 14:09.51 | Wraithan | bow is good for warrior/rogue isn't it? |
| 14:10.18 | Wraithan | was hard to jsutify the priest hammer, other than I like my priest |
| 14:10.37 | Wobin | I guess I could roll a rogue |
| 14:10.44 | Wobin | I doubt I'd roll a warrior though |
| 14:11.06 | Wraithan | have a 80 shaman already, and I can't really play a druid (only other one that would use a caster hammer) or maybe for low level dual wield on warrior/rogue/hunter |
| 14:11.25 | Wraithan | I have a level 20 of each class |
| 14:11.26 | *** join/#wowuidev Droolio (n=drool@87-194-188-170.bethere.co.uk) |
| 14:11.27 | Wraithan | at least |
| 14:16.58 | Wobin | aI just couldn't get my warrior past 20 |
| 14:17.03 | Wobin | that's why I made a DK |
| 14:18.59 | cncfanatics | <PROTECTED> |
| 14:33.51 | *** join/#wowuidev Hjalte (n=chatzill@cpe.ge-0-2-0-835.arcnqu2.customer.tele.dk) |
| 14:36.49 | *** join/#wowuidev Anaral (n=Anaral@WoWUIDev/Norganna/QA-Manager/Anaral) |
| 14:43.56 | *** join/#wowuidev Etanol (n=gamle-go@hus134a.bobbnet.com) |
| 14:53.41 | *** join/#wowuidev zerda (n=zerda@218.19.141.154) |
| 14:59.32 | Anaral | Did Blizz reword policy #1 at some point? I don't remember it saying that one can not charge to download addons... doesn't that sort of shoot Curse's premium service out the window? |
| 15:00.01 | nevcairiel | Curse doesn't charge for the download, they charge for the removal of ads |
| 15:00.08 | nevcairiel | You can download just fine without paying |
| 15:00.38 | nevcairiel | Just that you might have to click once more to pass over an ad |
| 15:04.18 | Fisker- | ^^ |
| 15:06.28 | Anaral | All in how you word it, I guess then. ;) |
| 15:06.42 | nevcairiel | Isn't it always with those texts |
| 15:06.53 | mikma | HAI THERE |
| 15:06.59 | mikma | we still crying about the new rules? |
| 15:08.08 | Anaral | no, I misread #1, was asking for clarification |
| 15:09.29 | Fisker- | admit it! |
| 15:10.05 | nevcairiel | I could be totally wrong though, and Blizz did this to stop Curse and nothing else |
| 15:10.07 | nevcairiel | who knows! |
| 15:11.05 | Anaral | Okay the Video option 'Reduce Input Lag' states in its tooltip that, "Enabling this reduces user interface lag, and may affect frame rates." I'm guessing this means improved fps, is this correct? |
| 15:11.12 | |Jelly| | <PROTECTED> |
| 15:11.29 | Anaral | Don't think so Jelly |
| 15:11.37 | |Jelly| | Okies. |
| 15:11.37 | Anaral | Think it's still too early. |
| 15:11.37 | nevcairiel | Anaral: no, its reduced FPS |
| 15:11.41 | nevcairiel | seriously reduced |
| 15:11.55 | Anaral | So my fps will be higher if I leave it unchecked? |
| 15:11.55 | |Jelly| | Yeah, good call. |
| 15:12.08 | nevcairiel | |Jelly|: the QH guy apparently stopped because he cannot ask for donations anymore, or so i heard |
| 15:12.50 | ZorbaGama | jelly, the big ones are QH and nUI, I think there's a few other semi-major ones |
| 15:12.53 | |Jelly| | QH, Outfitter/GroupCalendar, nUI are all I've heard of thus far. :( |
| 15:15.01 | *** join/#wowuidev spode (i=spode@213.21.89.60) |
| 15:18.36 | nevcairiel | Just quitting because i cannot ask for donations anymore makes me feel kinda sad for our community, though .. but that might just be me and my attitude |
| 15:18.55 | Cairenn | in game |
| 15:19.09 | nevcairiel | indeed, thats what i meant |
| 15:19.24 | |Jelly| | So .. Bartender is being added to the list? |
| 15:19.37 | nevcairiel | I'm not talking about me |
| 15:19.41 | |Jelly| | Oh, ok. |
| 15:19.41 | nevcairiel | i never asked for donations ingame |
| 15:19.50 | nevcairiel | i rarely even ask on websites |
| 15:20.45 | *** join/#wowuidev Robsato (i=5065af6a@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-9816b65cccd1bcb6) |
| 15:21.03 | Adys | Maybe its just me |
| 15:21.18 | Adys | but I've rarely seen ANY addon asking for donation before BC or so |
| 15:21.32 | Adys | I dont actually think I've seen any |
| 15:21.38 | Adys | maybe in some README file |
| 15:21.53 | *** join/#wowuidev Odlaw (n=ozzy@c-98-245-39-78.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 15:21.56 | ZorbaGama | nev, keep in mind I wasn't hugely doing it for the community |
| 15:22.05 | ZorbaGama | I was doing it because it was moderately fun and moderately profitable |
| 15:22.23 | nevcairiel | I've seen it once or twice, usually using the Ace2/Rock donation dialog that was already implemented, so you just had to put in your paypal address |
| 15:22.38 | ZorbaGama | fundamentally I'm kind of a selfish SOB :) it's no longer profitable, and if I'm not doing something profitable, well, I may as well do something more fun, like making my own game. So that's what I'll go off and do. |
| 15:23.34 | nevcairiel | see ZorbaGama, all i do here is either fun (my own small addons) or for the community (maintaining ace3 and a whole bunch of other libs, helping on forums), which turns out to be fun as well usually |
| 15:23.34 | Adys | you aren't selfish because you do what you want to do |
| 15:23.54 | Adys | but up to others to think you got a strange idea of fun :P |
| 15:24.40 | ZorbaGama | keep in mind that I don't have a full-time job - I quit Google a few years back 'cause I'd gotten bored |
| 15:24.53 | ZorbaGama | so either I need something that pays the bills, or I need something entertaining enough to not worry about going through some of my savings |
| 15:25.12 | nevcairiel | Trying to live on donations is a kinda weird attempt at live |
| 15:25.14 | nevcairiel | but shrug |
| 15:25.24 | Adys | have to agree |
| 15:25.26 | |Jelly| | <-- waiter |
| 15:25.27 | Industrial | like church? |
| 15:25.27 | |Jelly| | :P |
| 15:25.32 | Industrial | POW |
| 15:25.34 | nevcairiel | its different for waiters jelly =P |
| 15:25.49 | nevcairiel | its a social standard to give some kind of tip to waiters |
| 15:25.57 | |Jelly| | Not by a whole lot. I actually had to pay to wait on two tables yesterday, yes, out of my pocket had to pay to work. |
| 15:26.05 | ZorbaGama | nev, hey, I was making a nice living on it. not getting rich, but :) |
| 15:26.14 | |Jelly| | But yeah, I agree (and posted it last night) that they're different. :P |
| 15:26.26 | nevcairiel | .. how do you have to pay? |
| 15:26.51 | Adys | its just living out of something unstable and grey-area |
| 15:26.55 | Kalroth | wow, the UI change made /. |
| 15:27.12 | Industrial | Kalroth: lets rejoice! do a dance with Fisker- naked in the rain. |
| 15:27.12 | Kalroth | UI policy* |
| 15:27.13 | Adys | Kalroth: obama's zune made /. |
| 15:27.26 | |Jelly| | I pay 3% of the check total to my restaurant therefore when the people left without tipping (which /really/ wasn't my fault, this time) I still had to pay 3% of their check. |
| 15:27.27 | Kalroth | Industrial: Fisker and naked? :( |
| 15:27.33 | Kalroth | Adys: Lies! |
| 15:27.36 | Industrial | and you in the rain, go :p |
| 15:27.54 | |Jelly| | Wait. Naked dancing?! |
| 15:27.56 | Adys | no really it did |
| 15:28.15 | Adys | http://news.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08%2F12%2F06%2F2326225&from=rss |
| 15:28.37 | Kalroth | oh |
| 15:28.43 | Industrial | I dont really understand tipping :\ tipping seems so pimpish |
| 15:28.52 | Industrial | or to have been born out of that |
| 15:29.02 | Kalroth | :-\ |
| 15:29.07 | Industrial | just pay the waitress more? :\ |
| 15:29.22 | |Jelly| | So don't really go out to eat; I made $2.13 an hour and can't really get another job due to my ever changing school schedule. |
| 15:29.59 | |Jelly| | Anywho, I gotta go to work. Try to not flame on each other while I'm gone! :P |
| 15:30.42 | Adys | Industrial: how can you mix php fine with anything else but garbage? :p |
| 15:31.03 | Industrial | haha i was waiting for that :p |
| 15:31.12 | Kalroth | yeah, it's like coding in Python and being french! |
| 15:31.22 | Wobin | So, uh, in regards to not asking for donations with QH... |
| 15:31.28 | Wobin | why can't they just do it on the site? |
| 15:31.29 | Industrial | yes? |
| 15:31.29 | Industrial | :D |
| 15:32.05 | Industrial | Wobin: because commercials teach us that stuffing your crap in peoples faces works better |
| 15:32.10 | Wobin | Oh |
| 15:32.15 | Wobin | (Eat At Joes) |
| 15:32.31 | Wobin | Carry on, then |
| 15:32.40 | Kalroth | Wobin: He can just change the popup to "Please visit the QH site to show your support" and voila. No mention of donating. :) |
| 15:32.52 | Adys | "and click our ads too" |
| 15:32.56 | Adys | <cough> |
| 15:33.08 | Kalroth | He can ask people that on the site |
| 15:33.23 | Adys | in some way I'm really glad blizz made this change, highlights a lot |
| 15:33.27 | Wobin | I dunno, as soon as it becomes a paid job, writing addons becomes 'not fun' |
| 15:33.43 | ZorbaGama | kalroth, I might do that. I suspect Blizzard may object to it, unfortunately |
| 15:33.44 | Cairenn | foxlit: (2009-03-21 11:32:13) Dolby: ok private message popup should be fixed. however the error he got is due to the users popup blocker |
| 15:33.45 | nevcairiel | indeed, you can't just tell people to get stuffed |
| 15:33.45 | Kalroth | Blizzard needs a new fansite policy too; no advertising! |
| 15:33.50 | Wobin | nevcairiel: precisely |
| 15:34.02 | Kalroth | ZorbaGama: I doubt it, why would they? |
| 15:34.02 | Industrial | Wobin: as soon as anything becomes a job it becomes less fun |
| 15:34.03 | ZorbaGama | wobin, I have some basic stats on where my donations come from. Very few of them original from the website, most people require that popup message to remind them. |
| 15:34.11 | ZorbaGama | kalroth, the same reason they did this in the first place |
| 15:34.15 | foxlit | Cairenn: thanks; I'll poke you if it's still broke. |
| 15:34.17 | ZorbaGama | "omg someone might be making money, stop them stop them" |
| 15:34.24 | Wobin | ZorbaGama: 'remind' them? |
| 15:34.31 | Adys | no ZorbaGama you're way off |
| 15:34.33 | foxlit | I'm not running anything specific to block anything -- it's just Safari. |
| 15:34.40 | Adys | theres a LOT of people making money out of wow |
| 15:34.43 | Industrial | ZorbaGama: noone requires a poup |
| 15:34.50 | ZorbaGama | wobin, yeah. "have you donated recently?" "oh shit I haven't" |
| 15:34.50 | Adys | thousand times more than any addon author |
| 15:34.52 | Industrial | ZorbaGama: and noone needs to be remembered to donate anything |
| 15:34.59 | Wobin | this ^ |
| 15:35.08 | ZorbaGama | industrial, my actual statistics disagree with you :P |
| 15:35.12 | Wobin | the whole point of 'donation' is a charitable accountancy |
| 15:35.14 | Industrial | and certainly not 'RECENTly' indicating you want MORE money from them |
| 15:35.19 | ZorbaGama | I'm not pulling this out of my hat here |
| 15:35.25 | Kalroth | ZorbaGama: How do you see that donations are from ingame reminders then? |
| 15:35.26 | ZorbaGama | I actually have charts of donation frequency |
| 15:35.28 | Wobin | oh sure, but it's no longer a 'donation' |
| 15:35.35 | Wobin | it's a 'guilt push' |
| 15:35.39 | Industrial | ZorbaGama: no you jumped the bandwagon of 'I can make money out of this too' |
| 15:35.40 | ZorbaGama | kalroth, the basic mechanism is that I've had it on or off at various points, and whenever it's off, donations drop hugely |
| 15:36.00 | Industrial | it works, cause other people ahve done it before you, you arent pulling ti out of a hat |
| 15:36.03 | ZorbaGama | I got literally a hundred-fold boost when I turned it on for everyone for the first weekend. |
| 15:36.07 | Adys | not because they need to be reminded |
| 15:36.12 | Adys | because they dont know in the first place |
| 15:36.19 | Wobin | a donation, by definition should be on the users generosity and impulse |
| 15:36.42 | ZorbaGama | wobin, sure. and I'm reminding them that there is a useful outlet for that generosity, and giving their impulse a little nudge. ;) |
| 15:36.56 | *** join/#wowuidev Lunessa (n=Lunessa@WoWUIDev/Lunessa) |
| 15:36.56 | Adys | either way blizz isn't doing this just to "stop people from making money" |
| 15:37.08 | Adys | they're doing this for a very simple reason, it's unhealthy |
| 15:37.09 | Lunessa | station |
| 15:37.14 | Adys | and you got proof, the last 30 lines in this chan |
| 15:37.27 | Industrial | :> |
| 15:38.50 | Wobin | Personally, I prefer making donations by my own effort going towards finding out details and doing so. Not by people stopping me in the street saying "WHY WON'T YOU THINK OF THE CHILDREN!?!?!" |
| 15:39.02 | Lunessa | I realize I'm late to the table, but ... where's Cog's guide? |
| 15:39.19 | ZorbaGama | lunessa, deleted, as I understand it. cog quite dislikes blizzard's recent actions. |
| 15:39.35 | Lunessa | Can I get filled in? |
| 15:39.51 | Lunessa | NM - I see the new policy statement |
| 15:41.02 | *** join/#wowuidev digmouse (n=chatzill@58.20.47.166) |
| 15:41.58 | ZorbaGama | I strongly suspect that this is going to be my most rapidly +5'ed slashdot comment ever |
| 15:42.44 | Etanol | What editor are you using for lua coding? (yes, YOU!) |
| 15:42.49 | Industrial | vim |
| 15:42.54 | ZorbaGama | scite |
| 15:42.57 | Kalroth | edlin |
| 15:43.01 | mikma | ahhaha, trying to explain battle.net conversation to folks... |
| 15:43.01 | Industrial | and I use it for everything coding |
| 15:43.02 | Adys | gedit ! |
| 15:43.10 | Fisker- | edit |
| 15:43.14 | mikma | [17:40:19] [Guild] [Atree]: well i dont like any changes, i like it as it is..easy |
| 15:43.18 | Kalroth | echo > addon.lua! |
| 15:43.28 | Industrial | Kalroth wins |
| 15:43.30 | mikma | [17:39:41] [Guild] [Atree]: cant it stay old? |
| 15:43.32 | Fisker- | naww |
| 15:43.38 | Fisker- | he's piping it wrong |
| 15:43.46 | mikma | fisker-: PIPE IT MISTER |
| 15:43.47 | Fisker- | unless he intends on making the addon on a single line |
| 15:43.48 | Fisker- | :o |
| 15:43.54 | Kalroth | Fisker-: of course |
| 15:44.01 | Wobin | gvim |
| 15:44.01 | Fisker- | :( |
| 15:44.05 | Kalroth | Fisker-: I'm OBFUSCATING it! |
| 15:44.51 | Adys | "I'm the current sole author/maintainer of what I believe is the world's most popular World of Warcraft UI Mod" |
| 15:45.17 | Wobin | That's a bit... |
| 15:45.18 | selckin | you wrote dbm? |
| 15:45.24 | Industrial | "I'm really a giant dick." |
| 15:45.28 | Anaral | Adys which one do you write again? |
| 15:45.30 | Fisker- | no me! |
| 15:45.31 | Wobin | iffy claim there Zorba =P |
| 15:45.37 | Adys | not me who wrote that |
| 15:45.43 | ZorbaGama | wobin, do you think it's wrong? I've looked at download stats, I'm pretty sure it's accurate |
| 15:45.49 | Industrial | oh snap it was ZorbaGama |
| 15:45.51 | Anaral | Etanol I use notepad++ |
| 15:45.53 | Industrial | \:D/ |
| 15:46.06 | Fisker- | I agree with ZorbaGama |
| 15:46.10 | Etanol | is: "if table[table2[var]] == 2 then block end" valid? |
| 15:46.14 | Fisker- | (that's a bad thing) |
| 15:46.24 | ZorbaGama | I mean, something like 60-70% of the Curse client userbase uses QH, and I suspect I have a *larger* fraction of Wowmatrix |
| 15:47.00 | Adys | I dont see raiding guilds asking you for QH in their application forms |
| 15:47.00 | Adys | :P |
| 15:47.08 | ZorbaGama | something like DBM is only of use to competent raiders, and let's be honest, even if every raider in the world decided to pick up DBM, that'd probably still be less than a million users |
| 15:47.17 | ZorbaGama | adys, I don't see how that's applicable, honestly |
| 15:47.31 | Fisker- | DBM sucks anyways |
| 15:47.33 | ZorbaGama | "popularity" and "usefulness with one segment of the game that many people never even reach" are two unrelated things |
| 15:47.36 | Adys | you got a popular addon, cant you just be happy with that? |
| 15:47.41 | Industrial | ZorbaGama: that not every user can be counted by having a username on one or two sites |
| 15:47.44 | ZorbaGama | adys, I . . . am? |
| 15:47.51 | Kalroth | ZorbaGama: ~6 million characters according to Wowprogress |
| 15:47.54 | ZorbaGama | I'm just not seeing the issue here. I didn't say it was the best. |
| 15:48.02 | Kalroth | So lets round down and say 5 million players. :) |
| 15:48.06 | Etanol | is: "if table[table2[var]] == 2 then block end" valid? |
| 15:48.06 | Adys | no, you're just overboasting it |
| 15:48.07 | ZorbaGama | I said it was the most popular. I'm pretty sure that's the case. :P |
| 15:48.28 | Industrial | Etanol: sure |
| 15:48.35 | Adys | even if it is, how can anyone take your comment seriously if you start with that line? |
| 15:48.53 | Kalroth | Recount gets more downloads than QH! |
| 15:49.00 | Adys | "Hello guys, I've got something important to say to you all, but first let me introduce myself: my addon is the most popular in the world" |
| 15:49.00 | ZorbaGama | adys, the real point was to mention that I'm one of the larger figures in the community, not just some guy who says "hey my mom uses my UI mod" |
| 15:49.14 | Fisker- | she does? |
| 15:49.30 | ZorbaGama | no, she doesn't play WoW, but you get the idea ;) |
| 15:49.36 | Industrial | lua> a={'foo'} b={} b['bar']='foo' c='bar' print(a[b[c]]) |
| 15:49.36 | lua_bot | Industrial: nil |
| 15:49.42 | Industrial | fail! |
| 15:49.46 | Fisker- | http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=8464976852&postId=84639553073&sid=1#3 |
| 15:49.48 | Fisker- | i lol'd |
| 15:49.49 | Industrial | lua> a={'foo'=true} b={} b['bar']='foo' c='bar' print(a[b[c]]) |
| 15:49.49 | lua_bot | Industrial: luabot:1: '}' expected near '=' |
| 15:50.09 | Industrial | Etanol: my oneliner skills suck as you can see, but its valid :P |
| 15:50.22 | Adys | Please log in with your World of Warcraft or Battle.net account |
| 15:50.24 | Adys | >< |
| 15:50.31 | ZorbaGama | fisker, haha. he tried so hard |
| 15:50.39 | Industrial | ZorbaGama: if you are large in a community you are Cairenn |
| 15:51.13 | Cairenn | hmmm? |
| 15:51.14 | Wobin | I think, in the end, it's more, with the community of addon authors we've developed, that the whole concept of saying "I'm no longer writing addons because I am no longer getting paid sufficient amounts of money for it" is the non understandable thing |
| 15:51.19 | Industrial | Cairenn: never mind :) |
| 15:51.24 | Cairenn | okay |
| 15:51.26 | Wobin | We've written addons |
| 15:51.37 | Wobin | we've been in this community for so long without getting paid |
| 15:51.40 | ZorbaGama | wobin, *shrug* I may be coming at this from a different direction - I didn't do QH in my spare time, I did it as a fulltime job |
| 15:51.53 | Wobin | that to say "I'm going home, and taking my toys with me" seems silly. |
| 15:52.16 | ZorbaGama | I'm not taking my toys with me, I'm just no longer spending 40 hours a week building new toys |
| 15:52.18 | Wobin | And that, probably, was your first mistake. |
| 15:52.28 | selckin | i regret submitting data to you now |
| 15:52.40 | Wobin | selckin: you should have charged for it |
| 15:52.44 | ZorbaGama | I don't regret the time I spent. *shrug* it seemed like an interesting way to make a living for as long as it lasted |
| 15:52.45 | selckin | idd |
| 15:52.58 | ZorbaGama | now it's not lasting, and I'm not making a living off it. So, time to move on. |
| 15:53.07 | *** join/#wowuidev MoonWolf (n=MoonWolf@dhcp-077-250-125-249.chello.nl) |
| 15:53.08 | mikma | lolz |
| 15:53.25 | mikma | who asked you to "do it as fulltime job" |
| 15:53.43 | ZorbaGama | mikma, nobody did, but I did it anyway |
| 15:53.47 | Wobin | nobody |
| 15:53.55 | Industrial | mikma: its the mindset of wanting to make money out of it, not the need |
| 15:53.56 | Kalroth | ZorbaGama: uhm, as far as I can see the only thing that changes is that you can't remind people to donate ingame. Asking people for support (as in don't mention money) should be fine, no? |
| 15:53.59 | mikma | then you have absolutely 0 reasons to whine about it |
| 15:54.05 | ZorbaGama | I don't see why this is such a hard concept. I saw an opportunity, I spent 40 hours a week on it. Now it's not worth my time to do so, so I'm not anymore. |
| 15:54.08 | Cairenn | guys ... channel rules, same as site ... no personal attackes |
| 15:54.09 | Cairenn | etc |
| 15:54.13 | Wobin | "However, they've killed off a good number of UI mods thanks to this, and I think ultimately this is going to hurt them quite a bit." |
| 15:54.19 | mikma | cairenn: YOU LIKE KITTIES!!!11 |
| 15:54.21 | Wobin | Good number of UI mods? |
| 15:54.22 | ZorbaGama | I'm not whining, I'm grumbling and moving on :P |
| 15:54.26 | Wobin | what's a 'good number'? |
| 15:54.27 | Kalroth | Cairenn: Does that count for Fisker too? :( |
| 15:54.35 | ZorbaGama | kalroth, it's possible. I'll give it a try. |
| 15:54.41 | ZorbaGama | wobin, I've already heard of half a dozen or so |
| 15:54.42 | Industrial | Cairenn: this goes for everyone that has donation buttons for addons as far as im concerned |
| 15:54.47 | ZorbaGama | all ones I'd heard of before, so not tiny ones either |
| 15:54.49 | Wobin | ZorbaGama: which ones? |
| 15:54.58 | Wobin | QH, obviously |
| 15:55.03 | Cairenn | if it's his usual bullshit, we're all used to that and everyone knows better than to take those personally :p |
| 15:55.03 | Wobin | Carbonite, probably |
| 15:55.05 | ZorbaGama | wobin, QH, nUI, Mappy and all the other mods that guy is making |
| 15:55.15 | ZorbaGama | Carbonite, yeah. Cog's macro guide is gone, though that's not a mod in itself |
| 15:55.17 | Industrial | Cairenn: <3 |
| 15:55.17 | Kalroth | Cairenn: No no, I meant attacking him! |
| 15:55.31 | Adys | Wobin: 42 is a good number for me |
| 15:55.55 | Adys | Any appreciated UI addon will get maintained by other volunteers, people who find it fun |
| 15:56.00 | zenzelezz | half a dozen out of how many thousands? |
| 15:56.08 | ZorbaGama | adys, like QH was, before I started maintaining it? ;) |
| 15:56.13 | Adys | if the author doesn't want them to be kept maintained |
| 15:56.13 | Cairenn | Kalroth: lol |
| 15:56.20 | Adys | well its their problem and im glad they're leaving |
| 15:56.25 | Anaral | Wobin Outfitter is quitting |
| 15:56.32 | mikma | i'll attack fisker- with my ultimate mindpower now |
| 15:56.36 | mikma | fisker-: can you feel it? |
| 15:56.46 | Fisker- | nah |
| 15:56.48 | Adys | Anaral: since in 3.1 it becomes more or less useless, well |
| 15:57.04 | mikma | oh damn, wrong dude! |
| 15:57.08 | Adys | but seriously just look at it |
| 15:57.24 | Anaral | Blizz's equipment manager is hardly outfitter, at least as of now. |
| 15:57.33 | Adys | everyone started to do some small UI modification, something that could fit in a macro even |
| 15:57.35 | Industrial | in 5 years of wow addons ive seen so many addons die - big care really :P it will give rise to others ventually anyway |
| 15:57.37 | Adys | and stuff a donation button in it |
| 15:57.46 | Wobin | Anaral: And you think noone is going to take Blizzard's manager and upgrade it? |
| 15:58.00 | Industrial | exactly |
| 15:58.04 | mikma | lol, why is cog's macro guide gone |
| 15:58.19 | Wobin | I have no doubt that every single addon that gets discontinued, will be redone in some way or another |
| 15:58.19 | Fisker- | closetgnome Wobin |
| 15:58.20 | Fisker- | bawww |
| 15:58.24 | Anaral | Wobin: It's not really a matter of how many addons go *poof*, but how popular the ones that do. In this case quality>quantity |
| 15:58.35 | Fisker- | http://cogwheel.info/Macro%20Guide.html ? |
| 15:58.37 | Adys | mikma: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=96143900 |
| 15:58.38 | Adys | ? |
| 15:58.44 | Anaral | Wobin I'm sure they will |
| 15:59.07 | Legorol | I don't see why people are up in arms against authors who *did* live off of their addons. It's a perfectly valid enterprise. |
| 15:59.21 | Legorol | Now that Blizz said it's not allowed, both sides should shrug and move on. |
| 15:59.24 | Adys | dont think anyone's against the authors |
| 15:59.40 | Anaral | I'm not saying every addon that gets discontinued won't be replaced with something else. Just that people will QQ and exagerate because of the few popular ones that do get discontinued. |
| 15:59.42 | Legorol | But until now it was a legitimate way of making a living, you don't need to be shocked over the fact that someone *did* make a living from it. |
| 15:59.51 | Industrial | Legorol: I've always been like this, remember? I'm doing my victory dance atm. |
| 16:00.04 | Wobin | Legorol: never was shocked |
| 16:00.04 | Kalroth | I dislike frenchies and I will keep doing so until Blizzard tells me otherwise! |
| 16:00.07 | Adys | but neither should some people expect sympathy for something widely looked a dark way |
| 16:00.11 | Wobin | I also never used any of those addons |
| 16:00.12 | Legorol | Adys, the comments directed at Zorba personally are strongly suggestive of "you lived off your adodn, you suck!" |
| 16:00.34 | Wobin | No |
| 16:00.37 | mikma | adys: it's not in the sticky list anymore |
| 16:00.43 | Wobin | My opinion was "You were a bit silly to do so" |
| 16:00.46 | Adys | Legorol: "You lived off your addon, you got a weird way of living your life" is more what i'd read |
| 16:00.48 | Wobin | but that's a personal opinion |
| 16:01.08 | Wobin | since I've never actively solicited donations for my addons |
| 16:01.16 | Industrial | ^ |
| 16:01.17 | Legorol | still, those "opinions" were worded as personal attacks imo |
| 16:01.27 | Wobin | Legorol: All opinions are |
| 16:01.36 | mikma | PIPE IT! |
| 16:01.40 | Wobin | It's nothing malicious |
| 16:01.44 | Industrial | I'm not attacking one person, I'm attacking them all. |
| 16:01.46 | *** join/#wowuidev Lukian (i=lukian@203.171.70.21.static.rev.aanet.com.au) |
| 16:01.49 | Adys | also my turn to say it but FUCK BLIZZARD :( |
| 16:01.51 | Legorol | it sounded pretty malicious to me |
| 16:01.53 | Adys | they reset the forum accounts |
| 16:01.57 | Wobin | Cause really... what do I care about how he makes money |
| 16:02.00 | Adys | I had to relog and i lost my pretty level 60 mage |
| 16:02.07 | Industrial | mikma: to pipe (pijpen) in dutch means to give head. |
| 16:02.19 | ZorbaGama | adys, I'd never argue against my life being weird. It's pretty much been strange ever since I dropped out of high school in the 13th grade. ;) |
| 16:02.22 | Etanol | quick way to convert string -> int |
| 16:02.24 | Etanol | ? |
| 16:02.35 | Legorol | [15:53] <mikma> lolz |
| 16:02.35 | Legorol | [15:53] <mikma> who asked you to "do it as fulltime job" |
| 16:02.40 | Wobin | remove 'sr' and 'g |
| 16:02.40 | mikma | industrial: yes, yes, pipe it! |
| 16:02.40 | Legorol | ^^ pretty personal imo |
| 16:02.41 | Wobin | ' |
| 16:02.50 | nevcairiel | Etanol: in Lua? tonumber("10") == 10 |
| 16:02.55 | Etanol | thx |
| 16:02.56 | Wobin | oh. now I'm grouped in with mikma? =P |
| 16:03.00 | mikma | oh lol, i was actually able to log in US forums |
| 16:03.03 | Legorol | no you aren't wobin |
| 16:03.09 | mikma | but, no active wow accounts :) |
| 16:03.30 | mikma | "You have no active World of Warcraft Accounts Attached" |
| 16:03.39 | nevcairiel | yeah EU cannot attach them yet |
| 16:03.46 | Wobin | mikma: but can you post? |
| 16:03.48 | mikma | i wonder what will happen when we can |
| 16:03.53 | mikma | wobin: nope, reply button is grey |
| 16:03.54 | Kalroth | they'll break |
| 16:03.57 | Adys | a nuclear bomb will EXPLODE |
| 16:04.04 | Wobin | I'm looking forward to the mobile authenticator |
| 16:04.13 | Kalroth | http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/5018294/Pub-evacuated-after-Monty-Python-prop-mistaken-for-grenade.html |
| 16:04.14 | Legorol | when EU can attach accounts, we might be able to post on US forum, which'd be sweet |
| 16:04.28 | Wobin | Kalroth: Holy Handgrenade of Antioch? |
| 16:04.39 | Fisker- | nope Legorol :( |
| 16:04.40 | Rabbitbunny | ZorbaGama: Good work on the /. |
| 16:04.44 | mikma | well i was able to log in with battle.net account but since no wow accounts active, cant post :) |
| 16:04.47 | mikma | " |
| 16:04.48 | mikma | "Login Select |
| 16:04.48 | mikma | There are no available characters. |
| 16:04.48 | Kalroth | yes Wobin :) |
| 16:04.51 | Wobin | ahah so it is |
| 16:04.54 | ZorbaGama | rabbit, thanks :) |
| 16:05.09 | Industrial | Legorol: what I'm actually saying is that I think that all software should be free and that this is a prime example of why |
| 16:05.20 | ZorbaGama | it's mostly going to be chatter, it's not going to result in much (unless a brilliant business manager happens to see it ;) ) |
| 16:05.20 | Wobin | although them slamming the police for 'taking so long' is pretty stupid |
| 16:05.25 | krka | i think there is too much debate on what blizzard _can_ do legally, instead of whether it is morally ok or not |
| 16:05.45 | Rabbitbunny | ZorbaGama: Of course, I also expect some fart jokes to make it in. |
| 16:05.47 | selckin | i think its all moot untill they actually act on it |
| 16:06.08 | ZorbaGama | hey, it's slashdot, I'd be disappointed if someone didn't respond with a goatse |
| 16:06.19 | Legorol | Industrial: that's your opinion. I respect that. However, a lot of the comments directed at Zorba in my opinion were bordering on "eat it, sucker", even though not worded so strongly. |
| 16:07.41 | krka | i also like free software, and use almost only such software. but i have no problem with people charging for software either |
| 16:07.48 | Legorol | krka: morally speaking, I think it's ok for them to do so. They want the AddOnn environment to go a certain way, which not all people may agree with, but I think it's morally right for them to try to control it. |
| 16:07.59 | Legorol | It's a limited field directly influencing their product and their users. |
| 16:08.03 | Kalroth | haha, slashdot rocks |
| 16:08.06 | Kalroth | They need to assert control over third party mods to prevent rampant account hijacking. Too many users are installing sketchy addons that steal account information for gold sellers, so "add-on code must be completely visible" is great. |
| 16:08.11 | mikma | BAN ALL MODS |
| 16:08.18 | mikma | enough said. |
| 16:08.25 | Kalroth | TEH MODS ARE STEELIN MAH PASSWORD |
| 16:08.38 | Industrial | krka: it gives the people that are charging authority. they are 'in charge'. |
| 16:08.39 | mikma | zomg keylogged questhelper |
| 16:08.47 | krka | im un ur addon, takin ur passwurz |
| 16:08.52 | Rabbitbunny | THey let idiots in public. |
| 16:08.54 | *** join/#wowuidev Codex| (i=Codex_@CPE001346f71097-CM00159a3f1452.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 16:08.58 | Adys | saw a comment on QH containing keyloggers on wowinsider |
| 16:08.59 | Kalroth | I bet krka could write a keylogger in Lua! |
| 16:09.00 | mikma | stealin' yo money |
| 16:09.01 | Industrial | krka: the larger the userbase the more |
| 16:09.06 | Adys | then again wowinsider is as much as a tool as all of its commenters |
| 16:09.09 | Legorol | Kalroth: how can an addon steal account info? :O |
| 16:09.10 | Rabbitbunny | I'm hoping he's going to reply with something about a bundled *.exe |
| 16:09.14 | Wobin | actually AC is right, ZorbaGama |
| 16:09.15 | Etanol | is there a lua function for isset(var) ? |
| 16:09.16 | Kalroth | Legorol: It can't. :) |
| 16:09.20 | Wobin | (one of the many ACs out there) |
| 16:09.21 | Codex| | anyone send me a copy of outfitter? i was a moron and downloaded the dummy copy |
| 16:09.24 | Legorol | so uhm... i'm confused |
| 16:09.27 | Rabbitbunny | Legorol: It can't read slashdot. he posted a quote. |
| 16:09.28 | krka | all AC are right! |
| 16:09.35 | Legorol | ah ok |
| 16:09.38 | Wobin | If you want to remind people to update, just host your own addon update site |
| 16:09.41 | Wobin | er donate |
| 16:09.55 | Etanol | is there a lua function for isset(var) ? |
| 16:09.55 | Wobin | Get the current 1.X version on Curse |
| 16:09.58 | Legorol | Etanol: yes and no |
| 16:10.02 | Etanol | why? |
| 16:10.06 | Wobin | then any updates get it from ZORBA.com |
| 16:10.07 | Legorol | if (var == nil) then ... blah |
| 16:10.23 | Legorol | in Lua, there is no notion of a variable having been set or not |
| 16:10.31 | ZorbaGama | wobin, qh uses *terabytes* of bandwidth per month. I'd have to get a lot of donations to even equal that. |
| 16:10.39 | Wobin | well... |
| 16:10.40 | Legorol | however, all variables start as nil (from the point of view of writing in Lua), so you can consider nil variables as unset |
| 16:10.40 | Vangual | CarboniteUpdater, now with name randomization! |
| 16:10.40 | mikma | wobin: or just do like this: http://wowinterface.com/downloads/info8455-oUFP3lim.html |
| 16:10.51 | Wobin | you're not paying for curse's bandwidth =) |
| 16:10.54 | ZorbaGama | Plus, taking it off all the major update sites would probably result in its death anyway. Never underestimate network effects. |
| 16:11.02 | krka | ZorbaGama: host it as a torrent! |
| 16:11.08 | krka | just upload releases to tpb |
| 16:11.17 | ZorbaGama | krka, I've actually considered that |
| 16:11.21 | Kalroth | krka: Torrents are a tool of the DEVIL, pirates use it! |
| 16:11.31 | Adys | [Wine] How to enjoy DVD/Video/Music on iPod Touch/Nano 4/Classic |
| 16:11.34 | Wobin | ZorbaGama: cause -someone- has to pay the bandwidth for the most popular addon out there |
| 16:11.34 | Adys | made the spamfilter heh |
| 16:11.35 | ZorbaGama | I don't *think* it would be worth the trouble - largely because I hate UI coding, and I'd need to write my own client |
| 16:11.53 | ZorbaGama | wobin, sure, but curse does it by having a large centralized site with forums and lots of good information, then plastering it with ads |
| 16:12.09 | ZorbaGama | unless I actually set up a Curse competitor, I just won't be able to break even |
| 16:12.18 | Industrial | ZorbaGama: so if you cant pay for hosting you are also taking advantage of addon sites for making money. |
| 16:12.24 | Industrial | ZorbaGama: are you donating to those sites? |
| 16:12.35 | *** join/#wowuidev Josh_Borke (n=jk275@WoWUIDev/WoWInterface/LegoBlock/joshborke) |
| 16:12.42 | ZorbaGama | industrial, yes, I am! I'm providing them with a large amount of traffic. ;) |
| 16:12.54 | ZorbaGama | we have a business deal, y'see |
| 16:12.58 | ZorbaGama | I put my addon on their sites |
| 16:12.59 | Industrial | sigh :p |
| 16:13.02 | ZorbaGama | and in return, they keep my addon on their site |
| 16:13.03 | zenzelezz | oh nice, you just gave them more bandwidth to pay for |
| 16:13.04 | Legorol | Industrial: don't get started on whether authors are good for the hosting sites or not |
| 16:13.07 | ZorbaGama | it's a mutually beneficial arrangement. :) |
| 16:13.09 | Lunessa | Well, just a reminder Free Software != Free. Someone, somewhere had to pay in some way to make it happen. I'm with Cogwheel on this one. |
| 16:13.10 | cbreak | http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/03/21/148222 |
| 16:13.11 | Legorol | obviously the hosting sites depend on authors |
| 16:13.21 | Industrial | Legorol: I know :) |
| 16:13.41 | Kalroth | Zorba should compress and optimize his addon though! |
| 16:13.52 | ZorbaGama | kalroth, v1.0 ;) |
| 16:14.01 | Industrial | Lunessa: hobbyists pay with spare time and energy and that's a precious good. |
| 16:14.05 | Kalroth | Does it use 7zip compression?! |
| 16:14.06 | Legorol | cbreak: old news, sorry |
| 16:14.14 | cbreak | yeah. but news :) |
| 16:14.20 | ZorbaGama | actually, for a while it did, though curse.com and the like won't host .7z files |
| 16:14.28 | Legorol | I meant, it's been linked in here already. Doesn't hurt to relink I guess |
| 16:14.30 | Kalroth | oh |
| 16:14.41 | Kalroth | Curse sucks! |
| 16:14.50 | Lunessa | Industrial: I know. I understand all sorts of cost models. I have made a living in software and computing for something like 25 years. |
| 16:15.48 | Legorol | I don't think Zorba was wrong living off of something he saw an opportunity in. That's what enterprise is about. I also don't think Blizzard is wrong in saying: "sorry, not on my turf". |
| 16:16.19 | Legorol | I respect Zorba for going "oh ok" |
| 16:16.43 | ZorbaGama | legorol, I think they're making a mistake, and I think it's a bad decision morally as well. But it's certainly something they're legally permitted to do. :) |
| 16:16.53 | krka | i think blizzard was wrong for saying it |
| 16:16.59 | krka | but that's just my 2c |
| 16:17.13 | zenzelezz | morals are personal just like opinion |
| 16:17.14 | Wobin | I think Blizzard needs to change that list of TOU |
| 16:17.16 | Legorol | interesting, because I see it the other way around :) the legality is grey, and the morality of it is "their turf" |
| 16:17.21 | krka | ZorbaGama: i don't think anyone of us can be sure if they're legally permitted to do it or not |
| 16:17.23 | Adys | Legorol: likewise, respect the community for expecting more than just a "Yeah well screw it" from authors who have dedicated a great deal to their addon |
| 16:17.26 | Legorol | it might not make *business sense* to you, but that's for them to decide |
| 16:17.27 | Wobin | at least somewhat from all the discussion about it |
| 16:17.46 | ZorbaGama | krka, I can't imagine why they wouldn't be - it's their servers, they have basically full reign on what happens even tangentially to their servers |
| 16:17.56 | Kalroth | Zorba will see a spike in donations from the "LIZARD ISNT TREETIN U FAIR, HERS A DOLLAR, PLZ KEEP UPDATTING!" people around the 1.0 release and then it'll drop again. A perfect way to move on, imo! |
| 16:18.05 | ZorbaGama | the only possible argument against it would be an antitrust argument, and I don't feel like that applies here |
| 16:18.07 | Legorol | Adys: I don't think Blizzard ever demonstrated "screw you" when it comes to authors, I think it's quite the opposite actually. |
| 16:18.11 | Etanol | how does the #table operator work? does it count keys in the top level? |
| 16:18.30 | ZorbaGama | kalroth, yup, that's basically the goal. :) get a bit to smooth over the 1.0 release, drop it into maintenance mode |
| 16:18.31 | Legorol | They've always been as supportive as they could be. But they are a business, and they presumably think that this policy does them more good than harm. |
| 16:18.34 | Adys | Legorol: not what i meant |
| 16:19.11 | Industrial | Etanol: good question but those (lua and not wow specific) questions are very well answered in #lua. not saying you won't be helped here ofc. |
| 16:19.34 | Adys | Legorol: I meant, the rest of the community (users) would expect addon authors to continue maintaining their mod, and not, 10 minutes later, pop an update with "Yeah the addon's dead" |
| 16:19.39 | Legorol | Etanol: are you asking about the internal implementation of #table, or just the definition of it? |
| 16:19.54 | Adys | and I don't, ever, expect zorba to work fulltime on QH |
| 16:20.15 | Legorol | Etanol: the definition of #table is that it is guaranteed to return an integer x such that table[x+1] == nil. |
| 16:20.19 | Adys | but when you've dedicated so much on an addon, abandoning it because you cant make money out of it is very low |
| 16:20.23 | cbreak | You could write wow addons without ever entering a single contract/agreement with blizzard. |
| 16:20.40 | Kalroth | Adys: He didn't say abandon |
| 16:20.42 | cbreak | so you would not be bound by any rules made up by them |
| 16:20.45 | Adys | Kalroth: he did |
| 16:20.55 | Kalroth | Adys: There's a pretty big difference between mainentance mode and abandonment |
| 16:21.02 | Kalroth | (is that even a word?!) |
| 16:21.20 | ZorbaGama | not abandon. Maintenance mode. No new features, but I'll keep it running (at least until they break it badly, but let's hope it lasts at least through Wrath) |
| 16:21.38 | ZorbaGama | if they wanted to completely break it, they could get rid of coroutines, and that'd just be "well, yeah, I'm not going to fix this". |
| 16:21.45 | ZorbaGama | anything less than that shouldn't be an issue though. |
| 16:21.49 | Legorol | Adys: I find myself in a situation where I can't support that opinion. Just like it (presumably) makes business sense for Blizzard to announce this policy and drop it as a bomb on the author community, |
| 16:21.50 | Adys | ZorbaGama: http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/quest-helper/download/337923.aspx |
| 16:21.55 | Adys | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:21.55 | Adys | Bad news, everyone. Questhelper's dead. |
| 16:21.59 | ZorbaGama | QH has a very small external connection to WoW. |
| 16:22.00 | Legorol | authors who are making money from their addons have the right to drop the addon |
| 16:22.19 | ZorbaGama | adys, would it have been better if I'd said it was in a coma on life-support equipment? ;) |
| 16:22.21 | Adys | Legorol: didnt say you should support this opinion |
| 16:22.38 | Legorol | Adys: also, quite a number of people have brought up the argument that authors do NOT have obligations, and if it's not fun anymore, they can just stop. |
| 16:22.55 | Adys | obligations aren't expectations |
| 16:23.01 | Legorol | That line of argument was used against Zorba's attempt to justify charging |
| 16:23.03 | Rabbitbunny | If users wanted addons without nags they could just start writing their own. |
| 16:23.16 | Legorol | Adys: that's true |
| 16:23.23 | Kalroth | Rabbitbunny: or write an addon to remove nag screens |
| 16:23.24 | Josh_Borke | Rabbitbunny: realistically they cannot |
| 16:23.39 | Josh_Borke | not everyone can program, despite what some people think |
| 16:23.42 | Kalroth | QHH, quest-helper-helper, now with less nags! |
| 16:23.48 | Wobin | Kalroth: Or write an addon that crashes WoW when the nag screen addon is installed? =) |
| 16:23.53 | Adys | nevermind what they can and cant do; dead addons will get external updates everyone in here knows that |
| 16:23.55 | Legorol | Adys: however, personally I do not feel that any addon author is wrong for dropping an addon suddenly. Whilst you or I may not do so, I respect others' right to do so. |
| 16:24.09 | Kalroth | Wobin: QH crashes WoW fine by itself :P |
| 16:24.19 | Legorol | Dead addons better not get external updates without approval. That'd be copyright violation. |
| 16:24.39 | ZorbaGama | yeah seroiusly I don't need any help crashing WoW >:( |
| 16:24.53 | Wobin | coroutines will get you. Every time =P |
| 16:25.01 | ZorbaGama | stop horning in on my territory man, the WoW-crashing thing is *my* turf |
| 16:25.25 | Legorol | btw ZorbaGama, I blame QH for lag/disconnects in Dalaran |
| 16:25.30 | Legorol | even though I don't even have it installed |
| 16:25.33 | Kalroth | I remember installing QH once, to try it out. I hearthed to Dalaran, watched a locked computer for 2 minutes, then uninstalled it. :) |
| 16:25.38 | nevcairiel | i blame QH for all evil in the world :) |
| 16:25.41 | Legorol | you are simply that skilled that your QH can crash me remotely :) |
| 16:25.55 | Josh_Borke | nevcairiel: i blame ACE for all evil in the world |
| 16:25.57 | ZorbaGama | http://cams.pavlovian.net/bigmouthclam.jpg <-- this is still one of my favorite bugs ever. This is *after* I added a maximum depth to it - beforehand it would just instantly crash WoW when you mouseovered a turtle |
| 16:26.02 | mikma | love it when you guys twist a blade in the wound |
| 16:26.06 | ZorbaGama | (then I fixed the DB problem ;) ) |
| 16:26.11 | Kalroth | nevcairiel: Aaaaaaactually Bartender have done some funky stuff too! |
| 16:26.25 | nevcairiel | Kalroth: thats the so-called Kalroth mode |
| 16:26.30 | Kalroth | Nuh uh |
| 16:26.45 | Kalroth | I checked the code and removed all Kalroth references! |
| 16:26.55 | nevcairiel | Did you hit the Fisker- mode too? |
| 16:26.59 | Kalroth | Uh oh |
| 16:27.22 | Kalroth | No wonder I'd often strip my shield and weapon when tanking |
| 16:27.31 | Adys | [18:27:23] <Kalroth> No wonder I'd often strip |
| 16:27.33 | Lunessa | I have to look over BT4 every time I update just to edit out the "This will Jack with Lunessa" lines. Srsly wtf, d00d? |
| 16:27.49 | nevcairiel | My blacklist is too long :( |
| 16:27.53 | Kalroth | ZorbaGama: that's a lot of clams |
| 16:27.54 | Fisker- | that's not fair |
| 16:28.03 | Fisker- | atleast he comments your lines :( |
| 16:28.21 | ZorbaGama | kalroth, the basic issue is that it decided that pearls could be looted to get more clams and pearls out. it was an unfortunate infinite loop. :( |
| 16:28.32 | Lunessa | Fisker-: That's right. he likes me more than you! |
| 16:29.22 | *** join/#wowuidev Daedals (n=teemu@dsl-kpobrasgw1-feb8fb00-232.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 16:30.05 | Etanol | wohoo! |
| 16:30.14 | Etanol | curse client bugs and thinks I am premium :D |
| 16:30.27 | Etanol | now what? |
| 16:30.31 | Legorol | Etanol: did I answer your #table question? |
| 16:30.35 | Kalroth | Etanol: Tell it to Kaelten! |
| 16:31.12 | Kaelten | Etanol: everyone is still premium for the time being |
| 16:31.46 | Kalroth | http://consumerist.com/5177640/surviving-a-lynch-mob-+-aig-internal-staff-memo haha |
| 16:32.12 | Josh_Borke | ~lart Kaelten |
| 16:32.12 | purl | hurls dozens of incontinent, insomniac, hungry kittens with tiny little razor-sharp claws and a wide variety of contagious intestinal parasites at Kaelten |
| 16:32.38 | Adys | yeowch |
| 16:32.50 | Kaelten | ~lart Josh_Borke |
| 16:32.50 | purl | teaches Josh_Borke the basics, including how to RTM |
| 16:33.17 | Etanol | Kaelten: in a way, yes.. but it bugs for me |
| 16:33.19 | Anaral | Kaelten: Do you have a projected season that premium go away? |
| 16:33.30 | Etanol | Legorol I mean |
| 16:33.34 | Lunessa | Kalroth: Having worked at places where a lot of anger was directed by crack-pots, the memo is a pretty wise precaution on the part of the employer. |
| 16:33.35 | Etanol | sorry for the mixup |
| 16:33.59 | Kaelten | anaral? |
| 16:34.18 | Wobin | When will the CC become non-everyone-premium |
| 16:34.23 | Anaral | A general idea of when you'll be making premium a pay for service |
| 16:34.25 | Wobin | (is the question I think) |
| 16:34.39 | Anaral | Is it in the next month, 3, 6months? |
| 16:34.41 | Kalroth | Lunessa: It still seems a bit excessive, by my standards anyways. I guess you guys over there got worse crackheads. |
| 16:35.00 | Legorol | Etanol: could you be more specific about how it bugs? I may be able to help |
| 16:35.17 | Wobin | Kalroth: It's America. I think, by definition, they have worse crackheads |
| 16:35.29 | Legorol | Etanol: if your table has discontinuous sections of integer keys, the result of #table is unpredictable. For example: |
| 16:35.56 | Legorol | lua> t = { "a", "b", "c", "d", "e" }; print (#t) |
| 16:35.56 | lua_bot | Legorol: 5 |
| 16:36.06 | Legorol | lua> t = { "a", "b", "c", "d", "e" }; t[3]=nil; print (#t) |
| 16:36.06 | lua_bot | Legorol: 5 |
| 16:36.22 | Lunessa | Kalroth: No, the world is full of fucking whackaloons, and they can all be dangerous. It's just good to remind people that others are out there, and will want to hurt them. Police forces in every US city do the same thing for rape, and assults during major shopping holidays. |
| 16:36.26 | *** join/#wowuidev Dashkal (n=dashkal@WoWUIDev/Nexus/dashkal) |
| 16:36.39 | Legorol | In this particular case, #t evaluated to 5, but it could have also evaluated to 2. Whether it evaluates to 5 or 2 is *undefined*. |
| 16:37.14 | Kalroth | lua> t = { "a", "b", "c", "d", "e" }; t[1]=nil; print (#t) |
| 16:37.14 | lua_bot | Kalroth: 5 |
| 16:39.01 | Josh_Borke | lua> t= {"a", "b", "c", "d", "e" }; t[2] = nil; t[3] = nil; print(#t) |
| 16:39.02 | lua_bot | Josh_Borke: 5 |
| 16:39.05 | Legorol | lua> t = { "a", "b", nil, "d", "e" }; print (#t) |
| 16:39.05 | lua_bot | Legorol: 5 |
| 16:39.17 | Josh_Borke | lua> t= {"a", "b", "c", "d", "e" }; t[1] = nil; t[2] = nil; print(#t) |
| 16:39.17 | lua_bot | Josh_Borke: 5 |
| 16:39.34 | Legorol | lua> t = { "a", "b" }; t[4]="d"; t[5]="e"; print (#t) |
| 16:39.34 | lua_bot | Legorol: 5 |
| 16:39.44 | Legorol | lua> t = { "a", "b" }; t[4]="d"; t[5]="e"; t.remove(1); print (#t) |
| 16:39.44 | lua_bot | Legorol: luabot:1: attempt to call field 'remove' (a nil value) |
| 16:39.46 | Kalroth | Lunessa: I'm sure there's an equal amount of nutjobs out there, but I can't imagine any company here sending a notice like that out. It's something I'd expect to read ingame in Fallout 3, not an actual real life document. It just seems surrealistic to me, that's all. |
| 16:39.49 | Josh_Borke | it has to do with where the breaks are |
| 16:39.52 | Legorol | lua> t = { "a", "b" }; t[4]="d"; t[5]="e"; table.remove(t,1); print (#t) |
| 16:39.53 | lua_bot | Legorol: 4 |
| 16:39.54 | Kalroth | any companies* |
| 16:40.18 | Lunessa | Kalroth: *nod* Give it time. Eventually you'll see it. |
| 16:40.28 | Lunessa | Er, actually - you already have... |
| 16:40.41 | Kalroth | Yeah, Muhammed pictures. |
| 16:43.11 | Lunessa | Yup. |
| 16:43.38 | Etanol | lua> arr={};arr["a"]={[1] = 1, [2] = 2};if #ar~=0 then print("Works!"); end |
| 16:43.38 | lua_bot | Etanol: luabot:1: attempt to get length of global 'ar' (a nil value) |
| 16:43.44 | Etanol | lua> arr={};arr["a"]={[1] = 1, [2] = 2};if #arr~=0 then print("Works!"); end |
| 16:43.45 | lua_bot | Etanol: No output |
| 16:44.00 | Etanol | see? |
| 16:44.18 | *** join/#wowuidev iDolby (n=idolby@MMOI/Administrator/Dolby) |
| 16:44.18 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o iDolby] by ChanServ |
| 16:44.19 | *** join/#wowuidev Zootfizzle (n=Zootfizz@WoWUIDev/Blizz/Zooty-Zoot-Zoot) |
| 16:44.19 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o Zootfizzle] by ChanServ |
| 16:44.34 | Josh_Borke | lua> arr={}; arr["a"] = "fred"; print(#arr); |
| 16:44.34 | lua_bot | Josh_Borke: 0 |
| 16:44.43 | Josh_Borke | lua> arr={"bob"}; arr["a"] = "fred"; print(#arr); |
| 16:44.43 | lua_bot | Josh_Borke: 1 |
| 16:45.30 | Josh_Borke | the length of a table is always defined |
| 16:46.21 | Etanol | yeah, #table returns 0 even if the table contains data |
| 16:46.29 | Etanol | :/ |
| 16:47.00 | Josh_Borke | Etanol: what are you checking for? if you want to find out if the table is empty you could just do "if next(myTable)" |
| 16:47.07 | Josh_Borke | lua> next({}); |
| 16:47.07 | lua_bot | Josh_Borke: nil |
| 16:47.14 | Josh_Borke | lua> next({"test"}) |
| 16:47.14 | lua_bot | Josh_Borke: 1, test |
| 16:47.28 | Josh_Borke | lua> next({"test"="test"}) |
| 16:47.28 | lua_bot | Josh_Borke: luabot:1: '}' expected near '=' |
| 16:47.32 | Josh_Borke | i suck |
| 16:47.48 | Josh_Borke | lua> next({["test"]="test"}) |
| 16:47.49 | lua_bot | Josh_Borke: test, test |
| 16:47.53 | Josh_Borke | see? |
| 16:48.29 | Etanol | how do I use that in an if statement to check if it's empty? |
| 16:48.33 | *** join/#wowuidev Daedals (n=Daedals@dsl-kpobrasgw1-feb8fb00-232.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 16:49.04 | Josh_Borke | lua> print("arr is: "); arr={}; if(next(arr)) print("Not empty") else print("empty") end |
| 16:49.04 | lua_bot | Josh_Borke: luabot:1: 'then' expected near 'print' |
| 16:49.12 | Josh_Borke | lua> print("arr is: "); arr={}; if(next(arr)) then print("Not empty") else print("empty") end |
| 16:49.12 | lua_bot | Josh_Borke: arr is: , empty |
| 16:50.33 | Etanol | thx |
| 16:52.06 | Legorol | Etanol: I think you are mixing up arrays with integer keys as opposed to arrays with non-integer keys |
| 16:52.16 | ScytheBlade1 | heh, somehow I'm not surprised that this policy hit slashdot |
| 16:52.39 | Wobin | ScytheBlade1: where else can drama be properly aired? |
| 16:52.45 | ScytheBlade1 | Wobin: exactly |
| 16:53.01 | Legorol | lua> arr={}; arr["a"]="something"; print(#arr) |
| 16:53.01 | lua_bot | Legorol: 0 |
| 16:53.03 | Legorol | vs. |
| 16:53.10 | Legorol | lua> arr={}; arr[1]="something"; print(#arr) |
| 16:53.10 | lua_bot | Legorol: 1 |
| 16:53.23 | ScytheBlade1 | oh man I have mod points |
| 16:53.26 | Legorol | #arr does NOT count the number of entries in a table |
| 16:54.57 | Etanol | aha |
| 16:55.35 | *** join/#wowuidev Teomyr (i=teo@HSI-KBW-091-089-241-234.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de) |
| 16:56.54 | Legorol | Etanol: as I said, #arr is only concerned about the entries with *integer* keys |
| 16:56.58 | *** join/#wowuidev AbsolutRayne (n=chatzill@XPLR-MCI-74-127-239-30.barrettxplore.com) |
| 16:57.07 | AbsolutRayne | Morning |
| 16:58.21 | *** join/#wowuidev spode (i=spode@213.21.89.60) |
| 16:58.53 | ScytheBlade1 | ZorbaGama: your few posts there is totally going to cause your karma to shoot through the roof |
| 16:59.08 | Kalroth | Yeah, he's such a karma whore |
| 16:59.31 | Kalroth | Karma: Good |
| 16:59.31 | Fisker- | ~kalroth++ |
| 16:59.46 | *** join/#wowuidev sylvanaar (n=sylvanaa@unaffiliated/sylvanaar) |
| 16:59.48 | ZorbaGama | scythe, I've had top karma for like years at this point ;) |
| 17:00.24 | ScytheBlade1 | oh haha |
| 17:00.25 | ScytheBlade1 | Same here |
| 17:00.40 | ScytheBlade1 | In that case I will quit wasting my mod points on you |
| 17:01.11 | ZorbaGama | mod stuff up if you think it's worthy of note, I know a lot of my replies haven't been generally interesting :) |
| 17:01.19 | ScytheBlade1 | yeah that is what I'm seeing |
| 17:01.52 | foxlit | What is it with people not spelling principle correctly. |
| 17:02.03 | Dashkal | ZorbaGama: Question, assuming things go through as stated and you end up having to find *ahem* normal employment, is QH being abandoned or just maintined in much less free time (I'd like to be sure I don't misinform when I start getting asked by guildies) |
| 17:02.04 | ScytheBlade1 | BUT IT IS SPELLED PRINCIPAL |
| 17:02.07 | ScytheBlade1 | (wait, no) |
| 17:02.23 | ZorbaGama | dashkal, v1.0 released, and probably maintained at least until Blizzard does something to completely kill it |
| 17:02.30 | Dashkal | kk, danke |
| 17:02.35 | ZorbaGama | no fancy new features beyond the ones I decide to code for my own sake |
| 17:03.03 | Dashkal | I'll be sure to follow up my answers with "If you want it to stay good, click the damn donate link on the website" |
| 17:03.20 | Etanol | how do I make color codes? |
| 17:05.10 | AbsolutRayne | Who in here plays a Rogue? |
| 17:05.37 | Dashkal | |cffRRGGBB<text here>|r |
| 17:05.48 | Dashkal | typing that in the chat box won't work, the | will be escaped on you |
| 17:06.42 | *** join/#wowuidev norova (n=norova@c-98-215-162-117.hsd1.il.comcast.net) |
| 17:08.25 | Etanol | and what characters for |cff then? |
| 17:08.32 | Dashkal | exactly as typed |
| 17:08.35 | Etanol | 0-f? |
| 17:08.47 | Dashkal | |c is color code, the FF is alpha, but I don't think it's actually used |
| 17:09.14 | Etanol | does the scale go: 0-1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-a-b-c-d-e-f ? |
| 17:09.18 | Dashkal | yes |
| 17:09.24 | Dashkal | hexadecimal numbers |
| 17:09.51 | Etanol | meaning: |cffff0000 is read? |
| 17:09.56 | Dashkal | should be |
| 17:10.03 | *** join/#wowuidev Hirsute (n=Rupert@WoWUIDev/Norganna/Developer/Hirsute) |
| 17:10.26 | Dashkal | don't forget the |r after the colorized string to reset it |
| 17:10.32 | Hirsute | ... Wow. Bye-bye Carbonite full-version, eh? |
| 17:10.54 | Hirsute | Anyone seen the new addon policies |
| 17:11.00 | Hirsute | ? |
| 17:11.04 | ScytheBlade1 | ha |
| 17:11.04 | Legorol | Hirsute: everyone |
| 17:11.07 | Legorol | see channel topic |
| 17:11.10 | Josh_Borke | Hirsute: most people |
| 17:11.15 | Dashkal | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:11.15 | Legorol | channel's been over it for days |
| 17:11.15 | Lunessa | We've been 'discussing' it all morning. |
| 17:11.18 | ScytheBlade1 | The channel hasn't stopped talking about that for a straight 24 hours |
| 17:11.37 | foxlit | Somehow, I doubt that Carbonite is as worried as the rest of the crowd is |
| 17:11.41 | Hirsute | Legorol: Ah, there it is. *sheepish* |
| 17:11.44 | Ackis | Hirsute: wait... new addon policy? I wasn't aware of this, can you discuss this with me? |
| 17:11.59 | Fisker- | you're going down Ackis |
| 17:12.00 | Dashkal | They should be. Vivendi has lots of lawyers |
| 17:12.09 | Hirsute | Ackis: Okay, okay, I'm an idiot... I'll go hide in the corner now. |
| 17:12.17 | Ackis | Dashkal: I doubt they have lawyers in canada!!!! |
| 17:12.20 | Fisker- | Blizzard have their own lawyers |
| 17:13.05 | Josh_Borke | the crowd is worried? |
| 17:13.06 | Dashkal | on second thought, I'm gonna stop now before I start ranting about that company's legal dept |
| 17:13.27 | Ackis | Dashkal: don't you ever wonder how blizz deals with our privacy laws? |
| 17:13.43 | Dashkal | must..ressit... |
| 17:13.45 | Dashkal | resist* |
| 17:14.08 | *** part/#wowuidev Josh_Borke (n=jk275@WoWUIDev/WoWInterface/LegoBlock/joshborke) |
| 17:14.25 | Ackis | dooo it! |
| 17:14.53 | Legorol | Hirsute: don't worry, you couldn't have known |
| 17:15.08 | Legorol | you are not an idiot and there is nothign wrong with going "whoah" when you first see it |
| 17:16.48 | Hirsute | Legorol: heh. Thanks |
| 17:17.17 | Hirsute | Now, if I can figure out how some of this affects the ones I work on. |
| 17:18.58 | nevcairiel | If you're a good guy, not at all :p |
| 17:20.06 | Dashkal | Ignoring the social aspects, #3 (don't impact game performance) annoys me from a developer perspective. That should have been handled technically. |
| 17:20.24 | Hirsute | nevcairiel: I like to think I'm a good guy. *shrug* It's #3 that has me interested, as well. |
| 17:20.42 | nevcairiel | As long as you don't intentionally do bad stuff, it really should not apply |
| 17:21.02 | Wobin | that kinda smacks of the "If you're not guilty, you shouldn't be worried" =) |
| 17:21.11 | Dashkal | Well, framereate and memory would be difficult to limit (given their current model), but channel spam could most definitely be limited |
| 17:21.24 | Dashkal | Wobin: agreed |
| 17:21.46 | Wobin | yet when they apply that to search and seizure.... |
| 17:21.54 | Ackis | first they came for the jews... and I said nothing... :P |
| 17:22.04 | Ackis | omg I lose I just compared blizzard to nazi germany |
| 17:22.21 | Dashkal | mmm, hyperbole |
| 17:22.56 | Hirsute | First they came for the healbot, and I said "okay, maybe it was a bit too automated'... |
| 17:23.27 | Wobin | Then they came for the decurser |
| 17:23.39 | Wobin | and I said "They should lrn2play" |
| 17:23.55 | Ackis | Wobin: didn't they come for the mana conservation ones first? |
| 17:24.11 | nevcairiel | auto-downranking? |
| 17:24.13 | Dashkal | Autowalk! |
| 17:24.15 | Anaral | And now they've taken our 'leveling mods' |
| 17:24.29 | Anaral | The world is over! |
| 17:24.38 | nevcairiel | technically, no, they don't take those mods |
| 17:24.42 | Wobin | sorry, getting ahead of ourselves |
| 17:24.42 | nevcairiel | they only take their business model |
| 17:25.29 | Hirsute | I have mods that I consider levelling mods that aren't affected by this (I never was interested in paying for an addon anyway, donating in appreciation, but not paying for) |
| 17:25.55 | *** join/#wowuidev Kandoko (n=Testing@WoWUIDev/Norganna/Developer/Kandoko) |
| 17:25.59 | Ackis | speaking of donations, how the heck do you set up a donation link? :P |
| 17:26.20 | mikma | you dont. |
| 17:26.36 | Wobin | TourGuide works fine for me |
| 17:26.39 | *** join/#wowuidev Kandoko (n=Testing@WoWUIDev/Norganna/Developer/Kandoko) |
| 17:26.46 | Wobin | (as in, it's perfectly sufficient for my needs) |
| 17:27.34 | foxlit | "I see that ImbaThingyXYZ is broken by the latest patch. Pay me $$$ to work on a fix." |
| 17:27.37 | Wobin | Hirsute: this whole thing was pretty much aimed directly at Carbonite, anyway |
| 17:27.47 | foxlit | "Or don't. Not like I care." |
| 17:28.09 | Hirsute | *nod* |
| 17:28.15 | Wobin | foxlit: zomg, they nerfed ImbaThingyXYZ? The bastards! |
| 17:29.05 | Lunessa | Wobin: TourGuide is so good, I think I probably owe Tekkub sexual favors. |
| 17:29.35 | Wobin | He'll accept those in lieu of cash, I'm sure |
| 17:29.40 | mikma | most likely |
| 17:29.41 | Wobin | (as long as you have body hair) |
| 17:29.54 | Wobin | (or can fake it convincingly) |
| 17:29.56 | mikma | tek accepts a lot of kinky favors too? |
| 17:30.00 | nevcairiel | Lunessa: you better not be hairy, or he'll be all over you now |
| 17:30.54 | Lunessa | nevcairiel: I'm doomed. http://www.flickr.com/photos/fizzboy/2224657032/ |
| 17:31.07 | nevcairiel | heh |
| 17:31.43 | Ackis | http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/misc/beta-signup.html?rhtml=y/ <-- blizzcon beta sign up is up |
| 17:32.24 | nevcairiel | Anyone wanna trade me his key? :P |
| 17:32.35 | AbsolutRayne | For what? O_O |
| 17:32.46 | nevcairiel | sc2, probably |
| 17:32.57 | Ackis | it's sc2 |
| 17:33.01 | Ackis | I can't read my key |
| 17:34.26 | Gnarfoz | lol. |
| 17:34.33 | Gnarfoz | give to me, I'll try ;) |
| 17:35.04 | AbsolutRayne | Blah |
| 17:35.13 | AbsolutRayne | I wanna paly SC2 :( |
| 17:35.54 | Ackis | I got too excited when I scratched off the mount key |
| 17:37.58 | *** join/#wowuidev Fisker- (i=ballmer@62.61.142.209.generic-hostname.arrownet.dk) |
| 17:38.08 | Fisker- | hah Ackis |
| 17:38.10 | Fisker- | i won't bother |
| 17:38.12 | Fisker- | the last time i had 3 beta keys :( |
| 17:38.19 | Thunder_Child | Ackis, suggestion scan at a high res then enhance, i had to do that with the mount key |
| 17:38.29 | Thunder_Child | s/n/n,/ |
| 17:39.52 | *** join/#wowuidev Kaso (n=Kaso@78.151.222.20) |
| 17:39.53 | *** join/#wowuidev Dashkal_ (n=dashkal@WoWUIDev/Nexus/dashkal) |
| 17:40.19 | Ackis | Fisker-: yah i had 4 beta keys for wrath |
| 17:40.58 | nevcairiel | i had like 5 for wrath |
| 17:41.11 | Ackis | Thunder_Child: I think i scratched a number off of the card itself |
| 17:41.26 | Fisker- | well nevcairiel at the end everyone was invited basically :P |
| 17:41.33 | Fisker- | I had 3 keys the evening the beta began |
| 17:41.36 | Fisker- | ;_; |
| 17:41.45 | Gnarfoz | Fisker-: but then, since this is blizzcon stuff not random invite chance stuff... :\ |
| 17:41.58 | Wraithan | I had 2 alpha keys 2-3 months before beta began on Wrath... |
| 17:41.59 | Fisker- | It's not different from WotLK |
| 17:42.04 | Fisker- | WotLK was WWI and random invites |
| 17:42.07 | Fisker- | SC2 will be the same |
| 17:42.10 | Fisker- | just Blizzcon instead |
| 17:42.35 | nevcairiel | I want in alpha of the next expansion =( |
| 17:42.41 | Zootfizzle | Me too =( |
| 17:42.46 | Wraithan | Wasn't that great |
| 17:42.49 | Thunder_Child | ~lart Zootfizzle |
| 17:42.49 | purl | moos at Zootfizzle |
| 17:42.56 | Ackis | hehe it only took me about 20 attempts but I got it! yay me! |
| 17:42.59 | Wraithan | nothing worked and some zones were missing texture |
| 17:43.01 | Zootfizzle | I keep asking for my copy but it never arrives |
| 17:43.06 | *** join/#wowuidev Aznamir (n=aznamir@ool-43544a0d.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 17:43.14 | Fisker- | you get free invites :( |
| 17:43.18 | Ackis | hey zoot, tell them to use a font bigger than 1 for the keys please! :P |
| 17:43.34 | Fisker- | It's kinda funny i got my own little fanclub amongst the GM's |
| 17:43.35 | Zootfizzle | Happily :) |
| 17:43.44 | Fisker- | If only i had their email! :P |
| 17:44.06 | Wraithan | I know some of their tech support and QA irl |
| 17:44.25 | nevcairiel | cheats! |
| 17:44.59 | Wraithan | cheating, being resourceful, whatever. |
| 17:45.03 | Lunessa | Wait, I was in the alpha for WotLK - pretty great actually. :P |
| 17:45.09 | Ackis | we had a GM in a previous guild, he'd hold competions and stuff for free wow time, was kinda neat... gf won a year sub off of him lol |
| 17:45.29 | Nechckn | damn... |
| 17:45.30 | nevcairiel | Somehow i don't think GMs are really allowed to do that |
| 17:45.30 | Wraithan | they get 3-4 year subs each christmas |
| 17:45.43 | Wraithan | and they are allowed to give them out to friends if they would like |
| 17:45.51 | Wraithan | friend or family, as long as they don't sell it |
| 17:46.02 | Fisker- | I thought their account was just "paid for" |
| 17:46.03 | Fisker- | :P |
| 17:46.09 | Wraithan | It is |
| 17:46.25 | Fisker- | Yeah but in a "Don't even have to get that 3-4 year subs each christmas"-way |
| 17:46.36 | Fisker- | i.e. it was flagged like som special blizzard employee account |
| 17:46.43 | Wraithan | 3-4, 1 year subs that is |
| 17:47.21 | Ackis | their accounts are watched and they can't do tickets for their own servers iirc |
| 17:47.40 | Wraithan | yup |
| 17:48.03 | Wraithan | big trouble for interacting with anyone you know, have to pass it off to someone else if it is a gm ticket |
| 17:48.37 | nevcairiel | I would've thought they can't even tell that they are a GM |
| 17:48.43 | Fisker- | as far as i know GM's aren't even allowed to lookup your account details |
| 17:48.46 | Fisker- | unless they're senior gm's |
| 17:49.14 | Industrial | yesterday I lost my hearthstone |
| 17:49.21 | Fisker- | get a new one |
| 17:49.26 | Industrial | ofcourse thats no problem cause shamans are the coolest class |
| 17:49.36 | Industrial | yeah i didnt get a new one every time i visited an inn |
| 17:49.46 | Industrial | anyway the nice GM person told me it was in my bank :E |
| 17:49.52 | Fisker- | baww |
| 17:50.00 | *** join/#wowuidev ilovemrdoe (n=chatzill@88-104-81-173.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) |
| 17:50.00 | Lunessa | I do know that Customer Support (Game Masters) have at least two tiers of authority. Most likely more. The "senior" guys get all the requests that have to be investigated. I'm pretty sure they have someone they have to go to for permission in extreme cases. |
| 17:50.01 | nevcairiel | I asked for a return of my mechanical chicken that i threw away years ago yesterday, got it in the mail when i logged on the next day, that was nice |
| 17:50.07 | Anaral | I <3 Addon Control Panel! |
| 17:50.19 | *** join/#wowuidev Cidan (n=feh@conspiracy/developer/Cidan) |
| 17:50.21 | Cidan | Er. |
| 17:50.32 | Cidan | What is this I just read about TOS changes? |
| 17:50.37 | Ackis | This eMail is to confirm the address entered for the Blizzard Future Beta Sign-Up. <-- w00t |
| 17:50.39 | Fisker- | i should become a GM |
| 17:50.43 | Fisker- | so i could leak precious info |
| 17:50.44 | Ackis | Fisker-: you're too stupid |
| 17:50.46 | Fisker- | and get sued etc. |
| 17:52.05 | Lunessa | Cidan: BNet TOU - http://www.blizzard.com/us/legal/tou.html See also UI and macros form and http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/policy/ui.html |
| 17:52.20 | Ackis | Lunessa: read #15 in the bnet one |
| 17:52.22 | Cidan | No, I'm sorry, I mean the new UI changes. |
| 17:52.31 | Lunessa | Ackis, I already did. |
| 17:52.37 | Cidan | You can't solicite donations for a UI, in game anymore. |
| 17:52.49 | Cidan | ie: a window that says donate, etc. |
| 17:53.21 | Fisker- | oh god Lunessa |
| 17:54.09 | Fisker- | i'm gonna rage if that clause is there for ingame ads(i.e. non-lobby etc.) |
| 17:54.13 | Cidan | Zorba, you here? |
| 17:54.19 | Cidan | I just saw your post on Slashdot. |
| 17:54.20 | *** join/#wowuidev amro (n=amro@li37-20.members.linode.com) |
| 17:54.27 | End | Fisker-: I think it's pretty obvious that's what it is for |
| 17:54.29 | Lunessa | Fisker-: *nod* |
| 17:54.47 | End | whether they'll go through it or not... |
| 17:54.55 | End | well, I don't have to play if I don't want to |
| 17:55.00 | End | that's all there is /shrug |
| 17:55.32 | Ackis | no one is going to quit wow because of ingame add |
| 17:55.33 | Ackis | s |
| 17:55.36 | Ackis | we're all too adicted |
| 17:55.38 | End | I will. |
| 17:56.10 | foxlit | Meh, they're failing to deliver things. |
| 17:56.18 | End | I quietly nerdraged greatly when they added them to the WoW website, and then installed adblock and avoided the WoW website/forums even more |
| 17:56.25 | nevcairiel | They could just change some of the consumables ingame to have a ad effect |
| 17:56.52 | Fisker- | End i still have hope that they just mean lobby ads |
| 17:57.11 | Fisker- | Really can't see where else to stick it without being massively distracting |
| 17:57.13 | Adys | Pepsit |
| 17:57.13 | Adys | Use: Restores 18000 mana and 1560 health over 30 sec. |
| 17:57.13 | Fisker- | lol esports |
| 17:57.15 | Cidan | They do just mean lobby ads; I don't think it would be likely they have in game ads that are intrusive. |
| 17:57.17 | Adys | Pepsi even |
| 17:57.19 | Adys | fail |
| 17:57.24 | *** part/#wowuidev Zootfizzle (n=Zootfizz@WoWUIDev/Blizz/Zooty-Zoot-Zoot) |
| 17:57.30 | Fisker- | but think about it Cidan |
| 17:57.31 | Cidan | Sometimes they are nice; like if anyone has played Rainbow 6 Vegas, the ads work well. |
| 17:57.44 | End | I dunno, it specifically says "in-game" objects. |
| 17:57.45 | Ackis | Cidan: duke nukem ads! |
| 17:57.56 | Fisker- | Just during a Starcraft match one of the players are bombarded with "YOU ARE THE 999,999TH VISITOR!" |
| 17:57.56 | nevcairiel | End: lobby is ingame too |
| 17:58.00 | End | yeah |
| 17:58.04 | Cidan | Yes, they are leaving it open ended for any number of possibilities. |
| 17:58.12 | ZorbaGama | cidan, here occasionally, yes |
| 17:58.15 | End | it could mean anything though |
| 17:58.20 | nevcairiel | It doesn't even have to be fore WoW |
| 17:58.20 | ZorbaGama | enough for conversation :) |
| 17:58.22 | Cidan | Yes, it could. |
| 17:58.23 | Adys | "Welcome to Stormwind. You are the 999,999th visitor." |
| 17:58.28 | End | it's probably directed at SC2 |
| 17:58.33 | Fisker- | i think ads are coming for WoW |
| 17:58.34 | nevcairiel | Could be for the new lobby on SC2 and D3 |
| 17:58.43 | nevcairiel | seeing how SC and D2 had a real lobby to speak of |
| 17:58.45 | ZorbaGama | fisker, "Punch the zergling and win a prize!" |
| 17:58.49 | Cidan | ZorbaGama: I read your Slashdot post; man... |
| 17:58.50 | ZorbaGama | Congratulations! Your prize is spam! |
| 17:59.35 | Cidan | ZorbaGama: What are you going to do? :( |
| 17:59.44 | ZorbaGama | cidan, the same thing I do every night: try to take over the world |
| 17:59.48 | Lunessa | Does anyone remember in the 90s when companies started selling ads on web sites and such? The hue and cry was that "commercialization will destroy the integrity of the internet." I find interesting parallels. |
| 17:59.53 | Cidan | Hah! xD |
| 18:00.10 | ZorbaGama | seriously though, don't worry about me for my own sake - I've got a nice chunk in the bank from Google, I'm not in any worry about going broke. I'll just find a new project, that's all |
| 18:00.32 | ZorbaGama | maybe I'll go write a game, I've got an idea that should be reasonably fast, and I've wanted to break into the indie scene for a while |
| 18:00.41 | ZorbaGama | (and a few ideas that I can build on from there) |
| 18:00.47 | Cidan | If you want to write a game, might I recommend something? |
| 18:00.57 | ZorbaGama | sure :) |
| 18:01.00 | Cidan | http://unity3d.com/ |
| 18:01.14 | Cidan | I have a license for it my self; try it out. It's the most amazing thing ever. |
| 18:01.20 | Cidan | Free 30 day demo. |
| 18:01.28 | ZorbaGama | huh, looks like they can handle sidescrollers also |
| 18:01.35 | Cidan | It can do anything. |
| 18:01.42 | ZorbaGama | is there source included? |
| 18:01.52 | Cidan | And with a push of a button, it can export to Windows, Mac, and web-based binaries. |
| 18:02.05 | Cidan | You can ask for source, but you don't need to in most cases. |
| 18:02.13 | Cidan | The enging is really, really, really powerful. |
| 18:02.17 | Cidan | er, engine. |
| 18:02.26 | ZorbaGama | it looks better than many I've seen |
| 18:02.41 | Cidan | I can't think of any reason you would want the source, unless you need to change something in the rendering pipeline. |
| 18:02.43 | ZorbaGama | I know myself well enough to know that I'll always be pushing the edges of what they make possible, so source for me is kind of mandatory ;) |
| 18:03.05 | Cidan | Try it out, I think you'll really like it. |
| 18:03.13 | ZorbaGama | yeah, I'll have to check into this in more detail |
| 18:04.04 | ZorbaGama | for quite a while I avoided engines like this because I was still thinking of myself as a programmer |
| 18:04.09 | ZorbaGama | but honestly the programming isn't the part I'm interested in at all |
| 18:04.26 | Cidan | Agreed. For a long time I wrote my own engines and methods. |
| 18:04.48 | Cidan | Once I started to work with Unity though, I was blown away. Absolutely impressed by what it can do. |
| 18:04.53 | Ackis | ZorbaGama: donate to ARL kk!!! :P |
| 18:05.00 | Cidan | Ackis: xD |
| 18:05.16 | ZorbaGama | I don't even use ARL ;) |
| 18:05.20 | ZorbaGama | I don't even know what it does honestly |
| 18:05.28 | ZorbaGama | man, if you like money, put one up :P |
| 18:05.29 | Cidan | How can you not use ARL? :D |
| 18:05.37 | Ackis | ZorbaGama: I don't know how |
| 18:05.44 | End | ZorbaGama: Yeah, well, I don't even know what QH does! |
| 18:05.44 | Cidan | www.paypal.com |
| 18:05.47 | End | (I'm kidding) |
| 18:05.54 | ZorbaGama | make a paypal account, then go find their donation-button-maker |
| 18:06.14 | Ackis | ahh it didn't work with the curse paypal ID thingy though |
| 18:06.25 | ZorbaGama | I've never touched that, honestly |
| 18:06.28 | ZorbaGama | I guess I probably should |
| 18:06.45 | ZorbaGama | argh. frustration is realizing you killed the wrong monster for a quest |
| 18:07.06 | ZorbaGama | but it's an *entire extra level* when you kill the right one, turn in the quest, and they send you out again to go kill the one you *already killed* |
| 18:07.21 | Cidan | It's fun. |
| 18:07.26 | Cidan | and by fun, I mean not. |
| 18:07.35 | ZorbaGama | someone should write a plugin that directs you to the right creature >:( |
| 18:07.56 | Cidan | Hm. |
| 18:08.45 | Cidan | Perhaps it can be called... This Is Where You Get Your Quest Objects |
| 18:08.49 | Cidan | Or something along the lines. |
| 18:08.54 | ZorbaGama | QuestPwner |
| 18:09.00 | Cidan | Yes, perfect! |
| 18:11.46 | *** join/#wowuidev Gotai (n=thewill@ip503d59c0.speed.planet.nl) |
| 18:15.28 | Odlaw | Hrm |
| 18:15.54 | Ackis | QuestT-Bagger! |
| 18:16.53 | *** part/#wowuidev kmcguire2 (n=kmcguire@24-196-12-215.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com) |
| 18:17.27 | *** join/#wowuidev kmcguire (n=kmcguire@24-196-12-215.dhcp.leds.al.charter.com) |
| 18:17.35 | Odlaw | If addons that were already created prior to this new 'rule' thing are beyond it, would then writing a secondary addon to compliment the original addon be good... |
| 18:18.01 | brykrys | has anyone done an addon that adds a line to the tooltip: "DON'T kill this mob, it's not in your quest log" ? |
| 18:18.02 | Odlaw | the secondary addon could then conform to the new rules, and just add features/data to the original |
| 18:19.07 | *** join/#wowuidev keias (n=bleh@pool-72-86-106-233.aubnin.fios.verizon.net) |
| 18:20.08 | *** join/#wowuidev p3lim^ (n=p3lim@ti500710a080-4944.bb.online.no) |
| 18:22.50 | zenzelezz | http://icanhascheezburger.com/2009/03/21/funny-pictures-quick-hide-teh-body/ |
| 18:23.37 | Hirsute | I highly doubt addons created prior to the new policy are exempted from the policy. |
| 18:24.13 | Odlaw | Well, there goes that idea :) |
| 18:24.36 | Hirsute | I'm suspect this policy was *aimed* at addons currently in existence. |
| 18:25.09 | Odlaw | Would have thought it was more like a licensing agreement, and would only apply to future updates |
| 18:25.59 | Kaso | yah but the agreement now is "dont use these addons with our product anymore" |
| 18:26.06 | Odlaw | hrm |
| 18:26.10 | Hirsute | Not likely. It's more of a "we aren't happy with addons doing this, don't do it." |
| 18:26.24 | Hirsute | I strongly suspect it was aimed, at least partially, at Carbonite. |
| 18:26.43 | kd3 | ding ding ding |
| 18:26.56 | Kalroth | Round 12? |
| 18:27.14 | Kaso | i must be pretty cool knowing you got a ammendment to the eula just for oyu |
| 18:27.22 | ScytheBlade1 | lol |
| 18:27.29 | Odlaw | I want confirmation on what spurred this. |
| 18:27.35 | Odlaw | I'm curious. |
| 18:27.37 | *** join/#wowuidev Lyn (n=Lyn@Lcb47.l.pppool.de) |
| 18:27.45 | ScytheBlade1 | That is one thing that we will likely never get |
| 18:28.01 | ScytheBlade1 | But we may get those altered with any luck |
| 18:28.29 | ScytheBlade1 | s/those/the rules/ |
| 18:28.32 | kd3 | I expect something will change considering how pissed a lot of mod authors/recognized members of the community are |
| 18:29.05 | Odlaw | a lot of mod authors are pissed? |
| 18:29.06 | ZorbaGama | kaso, my high school changed their rules just for me |
| 18:29.07 | zenzelezz | I'm not so sure; but it will be interesting to see |
| 18:29.20 | ScytheBlade1 | Odlaw: um, try what amounts to, as far as I can tell, ever single person here |
| 18:29.28 | Odlaw | I'm not pissed. |
| 18:29.32 | ScytheBlade1 | Okay |
| 18:29.35 | ScytheBlade1 | *but you |
| 18:29.39 | zenzelezz | ScytheBlade1: I'm not either |
| 18:29.43 | ScytheBlade1 | And you :P |
| 18:29.43 | Cidan | We're all pretty pissed. |
| 18:29.43 | Kaso | what'd you do that was so bad? |
| 18:29.44 | ZorbaGama | scythe, there's some people, even in here, who seem to think that authors shouldn't be able to make money off their work |
| 18:29.51 | ScytheBlade1 | I should rephrase |
| 18:29.58 | ZorbaGama | i.e. not just neutral, but actively think it was good |
| 18:30.02 | ZorbaGama | kaso, I didn't go to any classes |
| 18:30.10 | ScytheBlade1 | Who disagree with something in that list to one degree or another |
| 18:30.13 | Kaso | there wasnt a rule about that already? |
| 18:30.14 | cogwheel | I think some of us should write a program that runs wow addons outside of wow. |
| 18:30.20 | cogwheel | then people could write addons for it |
| 18:30.23 | End | cogwheel: *cough* wowbench |
| 18:30.23 | zenzelezz | ScytheBlade1: in that case I agree with you |
| 18:30.24 | Odlaw | I can understand the money issue for authors. I think blizzard just got pissed when it was more than just authors (ads for carbonite) |
| 18:30.25 | ZorbaGama | it was an alternative high school, it was already a bit lax |
| 18:30.31 | ZorbaGama | I just . . . took it to an extreme. ;) |
| 18:30.32 | cogwheel | End: i mean more in-depth than that |
| 18:30.38 | End | oh, well, that'd be cool |
| 18:30.46 | cogwheel | graphical, perhaps with some purpose underneath so it would be more defensible |
| 18:30.55 | cogwheel | like addonwars or something >< |
| 18:31.14 | Xinhuan | has carbonite announced what they are going to do with the new policy? |
| 18:31.21 | Thunder_Child | use it as TP? |
| 18:31.26 | ScytheBlade1 | Xinhuan: not yet |
| 18:31.28 | zenzelezz | then, when they were all sucked in, we could change the TOS for the alternative to require a license! |
| 18:31.48 | ZorbaGama | I wonder what Blizzard would do if someone released an MMORPG that nearly-duplicated their plugin API |
| 18:31.58 | Cidan | You have to consider it |
| 18:32.00 | Cidan | When you think about it |
| 18:32.06 | Xinhuan | appears that a few people want carbonite refunds now |
| 18:32.11 | Cidan | What can Blizzard do? |
| 18:32.16 | Cidan | Block your addon? Your account? |
| 18:32.24 | ScytheBlade1 | neither |
| 18:32.27 | ZorbaGama | cidan, ban people using your addon |
| 18:32.28 | ScytheBlade1 | Serve you with papers |
| 18:32.29 | cogwheel | they could pobably find some way to directly block an addon |
| 18:32.29 | Kalroth | Block the addon. |
| 18:32.32 | Cidan | Will they really want to go to war with addons like QH, that are used by everyone? |
| 18:32.32 | Xinhuan | yes they can indeed |
| 18:32.44 | Cidan | Fuck it, Zorba, I say you stay the course. |
| 18:32.44 | Aznamir | Why would anyone ask for 1$ refund for Carbonite? |
| 18:32.49 | Aznamir | waste of time |
| 18:32.49 | nevcairiel | cogwheel: baddons.wcf ir what was it called |
| 18:33.02 | kd3 | bah, slow |
| 18:33.06 | zenzelezz | why do people keep saying "everyone" uses QH; the majority of people I play with don't |
| 18:33.07 | ScytheBlade1 | Wait, what? |
| 18:33.21 | Cidan | Because many do. |
| 18:33.25 | ZorbaGama | cidan, it's kind of tempting, to be honest. but I think long-term it'd be both more profitable and more helpful to just do the maintenance-mode thing |
| 18:33.26 | cogwheel | zenzelezz: that's cause you play with people more like yourself than the general wow community :P |
| 18:33.29 | *** join/#wowuidev MoonWolf (n=MoonWolf@dhcp-077-250-125-249.chello.nl) |
| 18:33.39 | Cidan | Perhaps. |
| 18:33.50 | zenzelezz | cogwheel: entirely possible, but I don't go "LF guild that doesn't use QH!" |
| 18:34.14 | nevcairiel | Still you probably prefer people that are intelligent |
| 18:34.18 | Cidan | In that case, time to find a new investment of your time. |
| 18:34.19 | Shirik | hi Cidan |
| 18:34.20 | nevcairiel | and can read |
| 18:34.24 | Cidan | Hi Shirik, xD |
| 18:34.30 | Shirik | And for the record, QH is not used by everyone |
| 18:34.37 | Cidan | Yes yes, xD |
| 18:34.41 | Cidan | How are you? |
| 18:34.45 | Cidan | CHERRY COLA |
| 18:34.45 | Shirik | tired |
| 18:34.46 | Cidan | C |
| 18:34.47 | Cidan | O |
| 18:34.47 | Cidan | L |
| 18:34.48 | Cidan | A |
| 18:34.50 | Cidan | COOOLLAA |
| 18:34.51 | Hirsute | ZorbaGama: Slight correction, there are people, even in here, who think addons should not be for-pay. We don't have issues with authors receiving donations, or soliciting them out of game. |
| 18:34.53 | Cidan | Awh |
| 18:34.55 | Kalroth | Shirik: Liar, I heard you say that QH is the best damage meter you've ever used! |
| 18:34.56 | Cidan | Why? |
| 18:35.22 | ZorbaGama | hirsute, I've seen people in here say that I shouldn't be allowed to request donations either, though |
| 18:35.32 | zenzelezz | some people feel that way, sure |
| 18:36.03 | Hirsute | ZorbaGama: On your website, or in-game? |
| 18:36.05 | Kalroth | ZorbaGama: Some people say that life on earth will end in a few years. |
| 18:36.14 | zenzelezz | personally I don't mind if authors ask for donations in an add-on, as long as it's in a place the user has to navigate - about- or options-dialog for example; not pushed on them |
| 18:36.15 | nevcairiel | "requesting" donations is a harsh way to go about it, i hate stuff that puts the donation button in your face every other action you do, but i don't really remember how annoying QH was |
| 18:36.20 | ZorbaGama | hirsute, both, actually ;) |
| 18:36.30 | Odlaw | I don't even see QH stuff |
| 18:36.31 | zenzelezz | but I don't agree with addons that are only available through purchase |
| 18:36.38 | Cidan | 2) Add-on code must be completely visible. |
| 18:36.39 | ZorbaGama | nev, for two days every 2-3 weeks I tossed a single line into the chat frame on startup |
| 18:36.40 | Cidan | The programming code of an add-on must in no way be hidden or obfuscated, and must be freely accessible to and viewable by the general public. |
| 18:36.40 | Odlaw | I must just ignore it. |
| 18:36.43 | Cidan | That one really bugs me. |
| 18:37.00 | ZorbaGama | cidan, the funny thing is that I bet they're going to complain about my new crazycompressed data format :P |
| 18:37.08 | nevcairiel | Cidan: you are pro-obfuscation? |
| 18:37.13 | cogwheel | I am |
| 18:37.13 | nevcairiel | data != code, imho |
| 18:37.21 | Shirik | Because, you know, everyone wants to go after your stuff ZorbaGama |
| 18:37.24 | ZorbaGama | nev, I could hide code in it without even trying hard, though |
| 18:37.26 | cogwheel | it doesn't actually accomplish anything to ban obfuscation |
| 18:37.30 | Shirik | Do you have a reason to believe that they would |
| 18:37.33 | Shirik | or are you just speculating shit |
| 18:37.36 | Cidan | I'm not pro-obfuscation, but I am pro-doing what the fuck you want. |
| 18:37.46 | Hirsute | ZorbaGama: Interesting. I've got no issue with out-of-game solicitations, but I don't think they belong in-game. |
| 18:37.47 | cogwheel | it makes it no harder to discover what addon is causing a problem, only how |
| 18:37.49 | Shirik | Why would they go after your data any more than they would go after LH's. |
| 18:37.52 | Nechckn | lol, nice Cidan |
| 18:37.59 | zenzelezz | I haven't seen this place this fired up for so long for... well, ages. Quite interesting |
| 18:38.04 | ZorbaGama | shirik, I sent 'em an email to ask for clarification on some points, and I got back a response that had a strong hint of "we don't actually want you around anymore" |
| 18:38.15 | Ackis | hmm obfuscation.... if I write my code in a foreign language, is that obfuscation? |
| 18:38.17 | Shirik | Right. |
| 18:38.20 | nevcairiel | cogwheel: the "which" is usually easy to determine, even if you have to do a bisect, the "how" is the important part =) |
| 18:38.34 | nevcairiel | Ackis: no, since you still have to use lua |
| 18:38.37 | cogwheel | but why is it important? |
| 18:38.37 | Hirsute | Ackis: Is the code still fully and freely visible? |
| 18:38.46 | cogwheel | the solution is still the same |
| 18:38.59 | cogwheel | uninstall the addon |
| 18:39.00 | Shirik | If that's how you really feel, then leave. Because there's no reason they would think that unless you're causing trouble you shouldn't be anyway. |
| 18:39.05 | cogwheel | or block it from running |
| 18:39.10 | Shirik | This policy was obviously not created because of data. |
| 18:39.15 | Shirik | Anyone with half a brain can recognize that. |
| 18:39.15 | nevcairiel | cogwheel: solution being? go and yell at the author? I might want to fix it myself, or fix interaction with my addon |
| 18:39.57 | ZorbaGama | shirik, problem is that any sufficiently large plugin causes some amount of trouble. Anything large enough *will* cause GM calls when it breaks, either because they don't realize it's the plugin's fault, or because they don't realize the GMs can't/won't help |
| 18:39.59 | nevcairiel | I have a ton of addons where i modify one particular behaviour to suit my needs |
| 18:40.04 | nevcairiel | if all those were obfuscated |
| 18:40.06 | nevcairiel | crazy! |
| 18:40.10 | ZorbaGama | I know very well that QH has resulted in a lot of GM calls (Dalaran crash bug) |
| 18:40.14 | nevcairiel | I would have to decode first :( |
| 18:40.17 | Fisker- | ZorbaGama screenshots or it didn't happen |
| 18:40.27 | Fisker- | ah ZorbaGama |
| 18:40.28 | cogwheel | nevcairiel: the fact that it's inconvenient for your purposes doesn't make it right |
| 18:40.30 | Shirik | Except GMs shouldn't have anything to do with determination of violation of these rules |
| 18:40.33 | Fisker- | they're trying to force you to quit! |
| 18:40.35 | ZorbaGama | and judging from some of the language there, I suspect that some of those points are in response to QH being a bit of a resource hog |
| 18:40.43 | Cidan | Amongst other things. |
| 18:40.46 | Shirik | Because everyone wants to get rid of QH, yup |
| 18:40.47 | ZorbaGama | I don't know for certain, but I think it may be a factor. |
| 18:40.56 | Kalroth | cogwheel: Is there just one single valid reason to obfuscate your code? Other than "because you want to". |
| 18:41.01 | Shirik | I think you need to let just a little bit of that air out of your head ZorbaGama |
| 18:41.04 | ZorbaGama | shirik, are you actually listening to what I'm writing, or are you just making smug comments? :P |
| 18:41.09 | cogwheel | Kalroth: protection of intellectual proprety |
| 18:41.11 | Shirik | A bit of both, really |
| 18:41.12 | cogwheel | property* |
| 18:41.14 | Kalroth | cogwheel: .. |
| 18:41.18 | Hirsute | cogwheel: Nor does it make it *wrong*. Blizz is fully within their rights to dictate how programs that modify theirs behave. Addon authors are also fully within their rights to say they don't want to play in that environment. |
| 18:41.19 | Cidan | This is not going to end well. |
| 18:41.22 | nevcairiel | cogwheel: not that this works in Lua, as you cannot really encode it |
| 18:41.30 | Fisker- | damn Hirsute |
| 18:41.36 | Kalroth | cogwheel: And Obfuscation protects it exactly how? |
| 18:41.36 | Fisker- | If only the EU agreed |
| 18:41.38 | Fisker- | bawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww |
| 18:41.38 | nevcairiel | hooking loadstring or RunScript will always get you Lua code |
| 18:41.45 | cogwheel | Hirsute: i didn't say they had no right |
| 18:41.52 | cogwheel | i just don't agree with their choice |
| 18:41.58 | Shirik | nevcairiel, not always exactly useful :) |
| 18:42.04 | Fisker- | "We don't want other vendors to replace our software HURR DURR HURRDURR" |
| 18:42.05 | Fisker- | >:3 |
| 18:42.06 | Shirik | As can be shown by Carbonite's |
| 18:42.07 | Hirsute | *nod* Understandable, and also within their right. |
| 18:42.29 | Kalroth | Fisker-: You're such a billy boy! |
| 18:42.37 | nevcairiel | Shirik: because vars and function calls are all garbage? i can work around that if i were really determined to steal code |
| 18:42.46 | Fisker- | My point stands Kalroth :P |
| 18:42.48 | cogwheel | Kalroth: ... by making it more difficult for people to access it... Barriers to entry are a strong de-motivator. |
| 18:42.55 | Shirik | Well anything can be worked around if you were really determined, even compiled code :) |
| 18:42.55 | Fisker- | If Microsoft couldn't why should Blizzard be able to? |
| 18:42.55 | cogwheel | i didn't say it was perfect |
| 18:42.57 | Kalroth | Fisker-: I bet you like SharePoint too |
| 18:42.59 | cogwheel | but it does afford a bit of protection |
| 18:43.05 | cogwheel | especially if they frequently update |
| 18:43.13 | Fisker- | Kalroth great idea |
| 18:43.17 | Fisker- | not so great implementation |
| 18:43.18 | Shirik | hell we disassemble code of executables that are uploaded to WoWI |
| 18:43.22 | Fisker- | atleast on the systems i've seen |
| 18:43.33 | Kalroth | cogwheel: Why should it be difficult to access in the first place? Exactly which piece of Lua is so valueable that you have to protect it? |
| 18:43.39 | Kalroth | Lua code* |
| 18:43.46 | nevcairiel | It only is if you're selling it |
| 18:43.53 | Kalroth | Yes, exactly. |
| 18:43.54 | cogwheel | Kalroth: that's not the point. the person writing the code is the only one who has the right to make that determination |
| 18:44.00 | zenzelezz | Shirik: IM IN UR .DATA SEGMENT, EXAMNING UR VARIUBLES |
| 18:44.02 | Xinhuan | Kalroth: its not that obfuscation protects code, but more so the point that the author has the right to do it because it is his code |
| 18:44.04 | cogwheel | and they should be able to for whatever reason they want |
| 18:44.05 | batrick | Is the questhelper maintainer here? |
| 18:44.06 | Kalroth | cogwheel: Obviosuly not. :) |
| 18:44.09 | Kalroth | Obviously* |
| 18:44.14 | Shirik | batrick: ZorbaGama |
| 18:44.17 | ZorbaGama | batrick, yup, whazup? |
| 18:44.18 | Duman | cog: I just shares the main policy link on FB |
| 18:44.21 | Duman | shared |
| 18:44.25 | Lunessa | Kalroth: Wait, you're saying that a thing must be monetized before you protects its value? |
| 18:44.26 | Kalroth | Xinhuan: Yes, just like Blizzard has the right to tell people not to. |
| 18:44.33 | cogwheel | Kalroth: they do, but blizzard has an equal right to block the addon |
| 18:44.34 | Hirsute | Fisker-: Blizzard isn't doing it with competing products, Microsoft is. |
| 18:44.42 | batrick | I read your comment on /., does wowmatrix actually modify your source code removing the donation prompts? |
| 18:44.45 | Kalroth | Lunessa: No, I'm saying that why bother when it isn't monetized? |
| 18:44.49 | Xinhuan | batrick: yes it does |
| 18:44.59 | Shirik | Isn't that exceptionally illegal? |
| 18:44.59 | batrick | whoa that's fucked up |
| 18:45.02 | End | well, then fuck wowmatrix |
| 18:45.04 | End | in the ass |
| 18:45.07 | Xinhuan | yes, it is |
| 18:45.08 | ZorbaTHut | well, not anymore, because they don't have to |
| 18:45.10 | ZorbaTHut | but yes, they did :) |
| 18:45.12 | ZorbaTHut | and no, it's not illegal |
| 18:45.13 | Lunessa | Kalroth: because if it's MINE, I should be able to do with and dictate what is done with it. |
| 18:45.15 | Fisker- | Hirsute Carbonite is a competing product |
| 18:45.18 | Shirik | What is your license? |
| 18:45.25 | Hirsute | Wowmatrix is a bad actor, in general. |
| 18:45.28 | ZorbaTHut | lgpl, but even if it wasn't, I don't believe it would be illegal. |
| 18:45.31 | Kalroth | I still can't see a -single- good reason to obfuscate code, other than "because I want to". |
| 18:45.32 | Hirsute | Fisker-: No it isn't, it doesn't compete with Wow |
| 18:45.38 | Hirsute | It *adds* to WoW |
| 18:45.42 | batrick | It'd be illegal under my license |
| 18:45.42 | Xinhuan | depending on QH's liscense, it may not be illegal for wowmatrix to modify the code |
| 18:45.43 | Nechckn | End I know quite a few who would like to do just that; and not with their "members", either. |
| 18:45.44 | Kalroth | There's zero valid reasons to obfuscating. |
| 18:45.49 | Fisker- | How does a browser compete with Windows? |
| 18:45.49 | batrick | I'd fucking drag their asses to court |
| 18:45.54 | Shirik | but yes under lgpl it's not |
| 18:45.56 | nevcairiel | Most licenses i used require you to rename a product if you modify and distribute it |
| 18:45.59 | ZorbaTHut | if it's on the user's system, I believe the user has the right to modify it. If I had a EULA, they wouldn't have to click on it before starting it |
| 18:46.08 | Fisker- | Or in other words, how do i install Linux on my Windows Desktop without removing Windows and not using a vm? |
| 18:46.09 | Hirsute | The browser competes with other browsers |
| 18:46.12 | Hirsute | Fisker-: |
| 18:46.13 | Shirik | Actually, it IS illegal under lgpl |
| 18:46.17 | ZorbaTHut | the only way it would be even potentially "illegal" would be if I tossed some DRM on it and got them under the DMCA |
| 18:46.19 | Shirik | Because, I'm willing to be they didn't change the author |
| 18:46.20 | Hirsute | And entrenching one stifles competition. |
| 18:46.22 | Cidan | Watch the word Illegal here, folks. Legality is strictly criminal; you're talking civil tort, xD |
| 18:46.24 | ZorbaTHut | but I don't believe in the DMCA, so :P |
| 18:46.35 | nevcairiel | ZorbaTHut: the client modifys it after downloading? or is it hosted in a modified version somewhere? |
| 18:46.40 | Shirik | And under lgpl you have to change the author and indicate what has changed |
| 18:46.41 | Lunessa | Kalroth: *shrug* I guess you're also against "no left click" scripts for images in browsers? |
| 18:46.42 | Fisker- | I don't see the difference |
| 18:46.44 | Fisker- | WoW = Windows |
| 18:46.46 | Fisker- | IE = Addons |
| 18:46.50 | ZorbaTHut | nev, the former |
| 18:46.54 | Ackis | hey anyone know if pizzahut has the lunch buffet on weekends? |
| 18:46.57 | ZorbaTHut | it downloads from wowinterface, when I was testing |
| 18:47.01 | Ackis | this is important news! |
| 18:47.06 | foxlit | Fisker-, you're also a known paladin. |
| 18:47.07 | nevcairiel | Thats probably a very grey area |
| 18:47.14 | Kalroth | Lunessa: Firefox disables those, but yes I am :) |
| 18:47.16 | Cidan | foxlit: I love it. |
| 18:47.17 | Shirik | Ackis: In my experience, weekdays at noon only |
| 18:47.19 | Fisker- | FoxFurry troll paladin bawww |
| 18:47.25 | Shirik | but I don't go to pizza hut much |
| 18:47.25 | Hirsute | Fisker-: If Blizz were producing addons as well, selling them, and had practices that stifled competing addons, then you'd be in the same ballpark |
| 18:47.28 | Lunessa | Kalroth: So, basically, you |
| 18:47.31 | Ackis | Shirik: damnit! :( my entire day ruined |
| 18:47.33 | Kalroth | and it's right click, I'm not a dirty Max user! |
| 18:47.34 | Nechckn | Ackis they did until at least a year or so ago. |
| 18:47.40 | Kalroth | Mac* |
| 18:47.45 | Fisker- | Blizzard are producing addons as well |
| 18:47.54 | Fisker- | new quest functionality for example |
| 18:47.55 | Lunessa | you're of the opinion that anything should be public domain? (just trying to see where we disagress, not flame). |
| 18:47.59 | Hirsute | Fisker-: Are they stifling competing addons? |
| 18:48.08 | nevcairiel | the default UI is not an addon |
| 18:48.14 | Hirsute | Are they making it so theirs are the only ones who work? |
| 18:48.20 | nevcairiel | Since its default, it cannot be "add-on" by definition =P |
| 18:48.27 | Hirsute | Or making it difficult for people to replace? |
| 18:48.30 | Kalroth | Lunessa: Nope, I'm not. It's fine to copyright pictures and what not. |
| 18:48.42 | Fisker- | Hirsute if they don't get it their way then potentially yes |
| 18:48.42 | Hirsute | Are the "addons" Blizzard produces a separate work? |
| 18:48.59 | Cidan | Huh |
| 18:49.00 | Cidan | I'm hungry. |
| 18:49.01 | Kalroth | Lunessa: I believe what I said was; there are zero valid reasons to obfuscating. |
| 18:49.04 | Cidan | What should I eat? |
| 18:49.07 | Lunessa | But you're opposed to control of distribution or limitations on distribution? |
| 18:49.10 | cogwheel | Kalroth: and i presented one |
| 18:49.25 | Kalroth | cogwheel: No, you said "because I want to". |
| 18:49.33 | cogwheel | no i said protecting intellectual property |
| 18:49.35 | Lunessa | Cidan: Food is generally good in this circumstance. |
| 18:49.40 | nevcairiel | Cidan: i just orderd some gyros |
| 18:49.44 | cogwheel | but "because i want to" is also valid |
| 18:49.44 | Hirsute | And it's just as valid for Blizzard to say, "we don't want obfuscated addons in our game, because we don't" |
| 18:49.45 | Kalroth | cogwheel: And that works? |
| 18:49.50 | ScytheBlade1 | Kalroth: yes |
| 18:49.57 | cogwheel | Hirsute: yes, and i've acknowledged that countless times |
| 18:49.57 | Cidan | Mmm, Gyros. |
| 18:50.01 | cogwheel | that's not the point |
| 18:50.02 | Kalroth | So Carbonite was never cracked? |
| 18:50.07 | nevcairiel | Kalroth: it was |
| 18:50.09 | cogwheel | Kalroth: l2r |
| 18:50.21 | Kalroth | Yes, that's the point. Obfuscating is pointless, because it -doesn't- protect anything. |
| 18:50.30 | foxlit | Meh |
| 18:50.33 | Kalroth | You may think that your addon is safe, but it isn't. |
| 18:50.33 | Hirsute | And, in return, it's just as valid for addon authors to do as many of done, and say, "then we don't want to play with your program" |
| 18:50.35 | cogwheel | 11:42 <+cogwheel> i didn't say it was perfect |
| 18:50.35 | cogwheel | 11:42 < Kalroth> Fisker-: I bet you like SharePoint too |
| 18:50.35 | cogwheel | 11:42 <+cogwheel> but it does afford a bit of protection |
| 18:50.35 | cogwheel | 11:43 <+cogwheel> especially if they frequently update |
| 18:50.40 | foxlit | Clearly the next generation is to write a lua bytecode interpreter in lua |
| 18:50.46 | foxlit | then ship the bytecode. |
| 18:50.46 | nevcairiel | Obfuscasion + compiling = pretty hard to get stuff out again :/ |
| 18:50.47 | Kalroth | A bit of protection? |
| 18:50.55 | cogwheel | Kalroth: stop fucking nitpicking |
| 18:51.09 | nevcairiel | just obfuscation = only annoying |
| 18:51.10 | nevcairiel | if you ask me |
| 18:51.13 | Kalroth | cogwheel: I'm not the one nitpicking, you're the one that says obfuscating works? |
| 18:51.15 | cogwheel | just because you don't agree it's valid for whatever specific reasons you want doesn't mean it's not a valid reason for someone else |
| 18:51.25 | cogwheel | Kalroth: it has its intended effect |
| 18:51.29 | Odlaw | works.. as a deterent. |
| 18:51.32 | cogwheel | you're assuming the intended effect is something it's not |
| 18:51.35 | Kalroth | cogwheel: It does? |
| 18:51.38 | cogwheel | stop arguing a straw man |
| 18:51.43 | Xinhuan | lol |
| 18:51.47 | Kalroth | What's the intended effect then, if I may ask? I don't see any effects. |
| 18:51.47 | Xinhuan | is that possible? |
| 18:51.50 | cogwheel | if it didn't do what people wanted they wouldn't do it |
| 18:51.51 | Lunessa | barriers to entry are a strong disincentive. This is why lots of CRM software makes it difficult to export your data. *shrug* |
| 18:51.55 | Xinhuan | write a lua bytecode interpreter in lua |
| 18:51.57 | cogwheel | Kalroth: yes, i see that you don't see it |
| 18:52.00 | amro | is the validity of obfuscation even relevant? blizzard doesn't want obfuscated addons, and that's that. |
| 18:52.04 | Kalroth | Every single obfuscated Lua addon has been broken. Every single. |
| 18:52.08 | cogwheel | that' s a failure of your imagination, not a failure of obfuscation |
| 18:52.18 | cogwheel | Kalroth: that's not the point |
| 18:52.26 | nevcairiel | Xinhuan: probably, yeah .. but really slow |
| 18:52.26 | Nechckn | It's just to discourage script kiddies and to further the "protected" argument if they find someone using their code. |
| 18:52.27 | cogwheel | they still produce dvds with cracked security |
| 18:52.40 | Cidan | I think Obfuscating your code is the most idiodic thing you can do, period. At least for a WoW addon. There's no point, and it's a waste of time. That being said, I do think if people want to do it, they should be able to. I know people are yammering on about how Blizzard has a right to enforce such a policy, but I simply disagree. I think the right is up to the author. |
| 18:52.44 | cogwheel | because it prevents the vast majority of people from cracking it |
| 18:52.47 | Kalroth | Yes, compare a WoW addon to a DVD. |
| 18:52.51 | Xinhuan | cidan, not true |
| 18:53.03 | cogwheel | Kalroth: now you're just being purposefully obtuse |
| 18:53.05 | cogwheel | i call troll |
| 18:53.06 | Cidan | I'm not speaking in a legal sense, mind you. |
| 18:53.06 | Xinhuan | certain obfuscatin techniques improve the execution speed of a program |
| 18:53.10 | Hirsute | Cidan: The author's right is to code by Blizz's rules, or not code addons for wow. |
| 18:53.13 | Kalroth | cogwheel: Only ONE person needs to crack it. |
| 18:53.25 | Lunessa | A !=B - Doesn't mean that both A and B are not valid in their contexts. |
| 18:53.29 | Kalroth | cogwheel: There's a huge difference between a wow addon and a media like DVDs. |
| 18:53.29 | cogwheel | Kalroth: and that one person has to somehow make every user aware of the crack |
| 18:53.31 | Xinhuan | i have code that ran a lot slower, in order to optimize, it has to be "obfuscated" in a sense |
| 18:53.33 | Cidan | Again, I'm not talking about legality, I'm speaking in a more abstract point of view. |
| 18:53.39 | Kalroth | cogwheel: Hello pirate bay? |
| 18:53.41 | cogwheel | and the crack has to continue working through continued uptades |
| 18:53.57 | cogwheel | Kalroth: yes. everyone in the world who ever wants a piece of software goes to pirate bay as their first stop |
| 18:54.00 | cogwheel | *eyeroll* |
| 18:54.03 | Kalroth | Games > Other Carbonite v2.55 cracked |
| 18:54.06 | Kalroth | Games > PC Carbonite 2.56 Beta2 - World of Warcraft Addon |
| 18:54.10 | Kalroth | Games > PC Carbonite 2.55 Cracked (no expire) - World of Warcraft Addon |
| 18:54.19 | cogwheel | Kalroth: the point... |
| 18:54.20 | cogwheel | . |
| 18:54.20 | cogwheel | . |
| 18:54.20 | Odlaw | google for 2.58.. you can find it too |
| 18:54.20 | cogwheel | . |
| 18:54.22 | cogwheel | . |
| 18:54.25 | cogwheel | . |
| 18:54.26 | Fisker- | . |
| 18:54.27 | cogwheel | . |
| 18:54.29 | Cidan | . |
| 18:54.30 | Xinhuan | consider inlining a function that is used everywhere, that kills code clarity ;p |
| 18:54.30 | cogwheel | . |
| 18:54.31 | Cidan | . |
| 18:54.32 | cogwheel | . |
| 18:54.34 | Kalroth | Yes, you don't have one. :) |
| 18:54.34 | Cidan | . |
| 18:54.35 | Shirik | I'm going to hurt people |
| 18:54.35 | cogwheel | . |
| 18:54.36 | Fisker- | . |
| 18:54.37 | zenzelezz | oh come on |
| 18:54.37 | cogwheel | your head |
| 18:54.38 | Shirik | if you keep that up |
| 18:54.40 | amro | so everyone is obfuscating their chat now too? |
| 18:54.43 | zenzelezz | can't you all at least PRETEND to be adults? |
| 18:54.58 | Odlaw | omg |
| 18:54.58 | Fisker- | ... --- ... |
| 18:55.00 | Shirik | You're lucky I can't type +m-v that fast |
| 18:55.06 | Odlaw | can you see this? |
| 18:55.10 | cogwheel | zenzelezz: apparently not... though now it'll be easier since i have Kalroth on ignore :P |
| 18:55.18 | Nechckn | Odlaw classic! =) |
| 18:55.23 | Odlaw | hehe |
| 18:55.30 | Cidan | Shirik: Easy there internet cowboy, ;D |
| 18:55.33 | Fisker- | -... .- .-- .-- .-- |
| 18:55.55 | *** join/#wowuidev t (i=tom@freenode/staff/tomaw) |
| 18:56.14 | Cidan | hi? |
| 18:56.19 | Cidan | Welcome to our home? |
| 18:56.19 | Shirik | Cidan: When my entire screen gets filled up with dots, I get a bit annoyed |
| 18:56.22 | Kalroth | I guess "LALALA CANT HEAR YOU" is a valid point for obfuscation too. :) |
| 18:56.26 | Lunessa | I'll be an Internet Hero! I'll have code in my eyes! |
| 18:56.33 | Cidan | Shirik: Well done, dots are awesome. |
| 18:56.36 | Cidan | er, don't. |
| 18:57.06 | Fisker- | t got my sos i think |
| 18:57.13 | Shirik | dots are only awesome when they are in response to something I say because I leave speechless |
| 18:57.14 | Cidan | No kidding. |
| 18:57.15 | Nechckn | Shirik Silly, it was all Morse code. |
| 18:57.20 | Shirik | Fisker-: Everyone ignores your sos |
| 18:57.33 | Fisker- | :( |
| 18:58.37 | Kalroth | Fisker-: Don't listen to them, I know that people seeing your SOS wont ignore you. They'll all find you, in order to puncture your lifeboat. |
| 18:58.48 | Shirik | Why is this channel +rR? |
| 18:59.03 | Cidan | Because |
| 18:59.07 | Cidan | It's full of win and awesome? |
| 18:59.08 | zenzelezz | there were some bots around last night |
| 18:59.10 | zenzelezz | I think |
| 18:59.21 | Shirik | I don't see it in my log |
| 18:59.34 | zenzelezz | it was brief, and they were K-lined before they said anything |
| 18:59.47 | Fisker- | aww Kalroth |
| 19:00.03 | Kalroth | Fisker-: Sorry :( |
| 19:00.06 | Fisker- | also if i were to ever become a veggie and live on hospital life support i'll let them disconnect me |
| 19:00.14 | Cidan | I would not. |
| 19:00.20 | Lunessa | I was full of Awesome and Win, but I sprung a leak somewhere around my 30th birthday and now I'm just full of Assahtery and Whinging |
| 19:00.24 | Cidan | I would require them to keep me alive forever while my implants repair me. |
| 19:00.47 | zenzelezz | I always knew your boobs were fake Cidan |
| 19:01.03 | Cidan | Shirik: When was your spring break? Was it this last week? |
| 19:01.11 | Shirik | :Cairenn!n=Cairenn@MMOI/Administratrix/Cairenn MODE #wowuidev +rR |
| 19:01.13 | Shirik | yes it was |
| 19:01.19 | Cidan | Fsck. Were you here? |
| 19:01.32 | Shirik | yes I was |
| 19:01.35 | Cidan | Fsck. |
| 19:01.48 | Cidan | I was going to text you last night, because I remembered. Sorry, this week has been -hell- for me. xD |
| 19:02.26 | Shirik | Lol, 3 bots joined and you guys got scared? |
| 19:02.44 | Shirik | You didn't even give Shiibot a chance, he would have had it :( |
| 19:02.52 | Shirik | they didn't even SAY anything |
| 19:02.52 | Kalroth | aww |
| 19:03.08 | mikma | shirik: i blame channel mistress |
| 19:03.15 | Fisker- | what 3 bots? |
| 19:03.59 | Shirik | :ScytheBlade1!n=Death@about/pxe/ScytheBlade1 PRIVMSG #wowuidev :+^AACTION hopes Shiibot is still functional^A |
| 19:04.13 | *** join/#wowuidev Zootfizzle (n=Zootfizz@WoWUIDev/Blizz/Zooty-Zoot-Zoot) |
| 19:04.13 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o Zootfizzle] by ChanServ |
| 19:04.18 | Shirik | [30 / 50] :tucsbkgn!n=tucsbkgn@206.251.250.211 JOIN :#wowuidev |
| 19:04.22 | Shirik | He was getting there! |
| 19:04.36 | Fisker- | odd how Zootfizzle gets back as the nerdrage subsides |
| 19:04.47 | End | Zootfizzle is psychic |
| 19:04.53 | mikma | he calculated it |
| 19:04.54 | Shirik | !quit |
| 19:05.05 | Kalroth | All 'nomes got a sixth sense |
| 19:05.09 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [-rR] by Shirik |
| 19:05.13 | Xinhuan | maybe he spies on a 2nd connection ;p |
| 19:05.20 | *** join/#wowuidev Shiibot (n=Shiibot@WoWUIDev/Nospam) |
| 19:05.20 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o Shiibot] by ChanServ |
| 19:05.22 | mikma | like "oh, bad news, will wait for 2 days bedore joining" |
| 19:05.31 | Kalroth | Maybe he's using an obfuscated irc client! |
| 19:05.45 | Cidan | Kalroth: I lawl'd |
| 19:05.56 | Zootfizzle | I use HydraIRC :) |
| 19:06.02 | mikma | haha |
| 19:06.04 | Shirik | Use mirc like real pros |
| 19:06.06 | NightHawkTheSane | maybe Zootfizzle is someone we know. |
| 19:06.07 | Cidan | I love HydraIRC |
| 19:06.15 | NightHawkTheSane | MAYBE HE'S CALLING FROM INSIDE THE HOUSE! |
| 19:06.15 | Cidan | It's the only graphical client I can tolerate |
| 19:06.18 | mikma | Irssi 0.8.10 (20051211) - http://irssi.org/ <3 |
| 19:06.21 | Kalroth | xchat for pros, mirc for alliance players! |
| 19:06.27 | Shirik | Only pros use mirc because it's so bad, you have to be pro to use it and like it |
| 19:06.31 | Shirik | see wut I did thar? |
| 19:06.33 | Fisker- | ^^ |
| 19:06.39 | Fisker- | mirc is awesome like that |
| 19:06.40 | Cidan | irssi is the best client out there though, xD |
| 19:06.40 | cogwheel | hmm... there's one thing that still pisses me off about ie8 |
| 19:06.51 | cogwheel | modal "do you want to save this password" dialog |
| 19:07.00 | Shirik | It's too slow |
| 19:07.09 | *** join/#wowuidev Kaso (n=Kaso@78.151.222.20) |
| 19:07.23 | Shirik | in particular I think it has trouble loading in its add-ons |
| 19:07.25 | mikma | ie8! haha |
| 19:07.27 | Shirik | even the ones that come stock with it |
| 19:08.13 | Fisker- | Chrome will win the browser war |
| 19:08.18 | Stanzilla | not |
| 19:08.27 | Kalroth | lynx will |
| 19:08.34 | mikma | oh, <3 the new dock-feture in chrome |
| 19:08.35 | End | wget will |
| 19:08.37 | Fisker- | it doesn't suck unlike Firefox and Opera and Safari and text-based browsers |
| 19:08.39 | Kalroth | all those fancy pancy browsers can't compete |
| 19:08.53 | *** join/#wowuidev Tekkub (n=tekkub@WoWUIDev/WoWI/Featured/Dongle/GitHub/Tekkub) |
| 19:08.53 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+v Tekkub] by ChanServ |
| 19:08.55 | Kalroth | Fisker-: What, I thought you were a MS fanboy |
| 19:09.05 | Kalroth | like Tekkub is! |
| 19:09.09 | zenzelezz | Fisker-: in what ways does Chrome differ that much from Safari? |
| 19:09.23 | Tekkub | meh |
| 19:09.24 | Shirik | I'm proudly an M$ fanboy |
| 19:09.25 | Shirik | but |
| 19:09.33 | Shirik | my MSDN subscription runs out in 2 weeks :( |
| 19:09.34 | Fisker- | you should learn2read Kalroth |
| 19:09.35 | Shirik | Need to figure out what to do |
| 19:09.44 | Fisker- | renew it |
| 19:09.46 | Lunessa | I <3 Safari, but I <3 FireFox more. I like Chrome, but lack of AddOn support is killing me. |
| 19:09.51 | Fisker- | zenzelezz being awesome |
| 19:10.02 | zenzelezz | thank you, now answer the question |
| 19:10.08 | Fisker- | but actually i like the design |
| 19:10.12 | Tekkub | Lunessa, soon |
| 19:10.12 | Fisker- | unlike every other browser |
| 19:10.51 | Lunessa | The thing I like most about Chrome is raw speed. But the tabs and UI elements need work. |
| 19:11.00 | End | zenzelezz: it does have a different js engine :P although the new javascriptcore or whatever I guess is currently faster |
| 19:11.17 | Tekkub | mu? |
| 19:11.19 | End | I'm sure google is trying to make V8 faster too though |
| 19:11.22 | Tekkub | more pointless drama? |
| 19:11.26 | zenzelezz | End: it was a genuine question, since I don't use either |
| 19:11.32 | End | and I answered what I knew |
| 19:11.33 | Tekkub | I was done with it about this time yesterday :P |
| 19:11.34 | Cidan | The only reason I don't use Chrome is it's kind of broken on Windows 7 |
| 19:11.38 | nevcairiel | Tekkub: of course, where would we be without it |
| 19:11.38 | Cidan | Otherwise I'd use it all the time. |
| 19:11.41 | End | the "chrome" of chrome is different too |
| 19:11.42 | Cidan | I looovee Chrome. |
| 19:11.46 | Fisker- | Windows 7 works fine |
| 19:11.50 | Fisker- | err |
| 19:11.52 | Cidan | No, it crashes a lot. |
| 19:11.55 | End | as well as the multi-process model |
| 19:11.56 | Fisker- | Doesn't here :( |
| 19:12.02 | End | but that's all I can think of |
| 19:12.05 | Fisker- | doesn't crash at all |
| 19:12.08 | ZorbaTHut | if I ever make an MMORPG I'm going to have some serious sanity tests for quests |
| 19:12.11 | Cidan | tabs crash a lot |
| 19:12.16 | Lunessa | I don't have Windows 7 installed anywhere yet. |
| 19:12.16 | Fisker- | Infact the only crash i can even remember was a flash crash some days ago |
| 19:12.22 | Shirik | Oh, I severely broke Windows 7 yesterday, Cidan |
| 19:12.27 | Shirik | by closing my laptop screen |
| 19:12.27 | Cidan | Woohoo |
| 19:12.28 | ZorbaTHut | "I feel so bad about kicking the gnomes out of our village. Go find out where they went?" |
| 19:12.29 | Cidan | rofl |
| 19:12.31 | Kalroth | ZorbaTHut: Sanity or insanity? :P |
| 19:12.33 | zenzelezz | I'm still unconvinced by the multi-process part of Chrome |
| 19:12.36 | Fisker- | and i've been running Windows 7 for 3 months or so |
| 19:12.37 | ZorbaTHut | yeah turns out they're right across that bridge leading out of your village |
| 19:12.41 | Shirik | My laptop has always blue screened by closing my laptop screen |
| 19:12.43 | Shirik | 100% reproducable |
| 19:12.44 | End | I've killed the flash process for chrome a few times because it was eating absurd amounts of memory |
| 19:12.45 | Shirik | But |
| 19:12.50 | ZorbaTHut | did you ever go and look? I mean . . . they're *right there*, guys |
| 19:12.52 | Shirik | This time I did it at a bad time, and now my user profile is corrupt |
| 19:12.54 | End | and chrome was like "oh snap, this plugin crashed" |
| 19:12.55 | Shirik | I can't log in to it anymore |
| 19:13.05 | batrick | owned! |
| 19:13.12 | Tekkub | zenzelezz, I am, but only cause I'm used to FF taking hundreds on MB of ran and never letting it go |
| 19:13.18 | *** join/#wowuidev Wraanger (n=wraanger@81.200.24.137) |
| 19:13.22 | Tekkub | one tab, 250MiB... something is wrong |
| 19:13.23 | Fisker- | Shirik i believe that's because you've not properly setup ACPI |
| 19:13.28 | Fisker- | atleast i believe that's why it usually happens |
| 19:13.42 | Wraanger | heyaz all |
| 19:13.45 | Fisker- | Though Windows 7 in the 7k build had some problems with hybrid sleep atleast |
| 19:13.51 | Shirik | Fact of the matter is Windows 7 shouldn't blue screen |
| 19:13.55 | Shirik | No matter what the user does |
| 19:14.06 | zenzelezz | Tekkub: I'm not trying to scare anyone away from Chrome; people are free to use what they prefer :) |
| 19:14.09 | Shirik | Blue screen is a kernel panic |
| 19:14.19 | Shirik | If user can cause a kernel panic (aside from hitting the "kernel panic" button), there's something wrong |
| 19:14.20 | Tekkub | I know, I'm just saying |
| 19:14.33 | nevcairiel | Could still be caused by broken drivers, and you launch some app that uses some func of the driver |
| 19:14.46 | Shirik | but that's not caused by user :) Still caused by kernel-mode code |
| 19:14.50 | Tekkub | Shirik, "something is wrong" yes that's what a kernel panic is |
| 19:14.56 | nevcairiel | its initiated by a user action |
| 19:14.57 | nevcairiel | =P |
| 19:15.14 | Shirik | The user is the trigger, not the cause |
| 19:15.41 | nevcairiel | Does me doing something funky to the registry qualify as a cause? |
| 19:15.41 | End | if it panics on boot, it was my fault for turning the computer on! |
| 19:15.49 | Shirik | nevcairiel: imo, yes |
| 19:16.08 | Shirik | You should never be able to cause a kernel panic, no matter how messed up you made things, imo |
| 19:16.13 | Kalroth | Give Shirik a rock and you'll only get rubble back! |
| 19:16.29 | Shirik | Writing kernel mode code is a bit different because, tbph, you have access to the KeBugCheckEx() API in driver code |
| 19:18.52 | Cidan | You should never be able to cause a kernal panic, sure, but it happens. |
| 19:19.05 | nevcairiel | well tbh i can't remember when i ever had Vista blue screen on me |
| 19:20.44 | mikma | Crazy Cat Lady (Defeat Auriaya without destroying her Sanctum Sentries on Normal Difficulty.) |
| 19:20.55 | mikma | i hope she makes the voices of Crazy Cat Lady too |
| 19:21.33 | Kalroth | mikma: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkMvKeX7erI |
| 19:22.19 | mikma | kalroth: exactly! |
| 19:28.10 | *** join/#wowuidev MoonWolf (n=MoonWolf@dhcp-077-250-125-249.chello.nl) |
| 19:31.00 | *** join/#wowuidev Castigo (n=castigo@host81-159-16-157.range81-159.btcentralplus.com) |
| 19:31.02 | Castigo | hi, is anyone here familiar with the combat log parsing? |
| 19:31.27 | *** join/#wowuidev Lopeppeppy (n=Lopeppep@cpe-69-204-134-64.nycap.res.rr.com) |
| 19:31.27 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+v Lopeppeppy] by ChanServ |
| 19:31.37 | Cidan | Lopeppeppy: WHAT IS WRONG WITH REDHEADS? |
| 19:31.44 | Lopeppeppy | Mrph? |
| 19:31.50 | Cidan | That's what I say. |
| 19:31.53 | Lopeppeppy | I think I work just fine, Cidan. Did yours break? |
| 19:32.12 | Cidan | Mine dropped me like a rock 3 weeks ago, right? Now, jumpin' my bones again. |
| 19:32.27 | Lopeppeppy | tell her to piss off. You may not have that, it obviously has the crazy. |
| 19:32.44 | foxlit | "There are times when you have to find a way to dispose of kittens." |
| 19:34.04 | Lopeppeppy | Bad redhead, no biscuit for her, she's giving me a bad rap |
| 19:34.52 | Cidan | Truth. |
| 19:35.00 | Cidan | Hard to resist though |
| 19:35.16 | Cidan | Her hair is red and blonde, she pretty much looks like a blood elf. |
| 19:35.40 | Castigo | i get it as a no? :) |
| 19:35.48 | foxlit | Castigo: you aren't getting a response because you're not asking a real question. |
| 19:35.51 | foxlit | ~asktoask |
| 19:35.51 | purl | This is IRC. Don't ask to ask a question. Just ask your question and if someone's around, they'll be glad to help. |
| 19:35.57 | zenzelezz | Castigo: you'd be better off asking what you're actually wondering |
| 19:36.42 | Lopeppeppy | Cidan, she's hot, but she's crazy. You decide which one is more important. |
| 19:36.47 | Castigo | well... i got a problem, parsing a combatlog.txt i don't know how to associate pets to owners since no pets are summoned in the whole combat log |
| 19:37.05 | Shirik | Castigo: Look at the pet's GUID |
| 19:37.13 | Lopeppeppy | I know, Cidan... but you gotta make hard choices sometimes. Crazy is seriously not worth your effort. |
| 19:37.31 | Castigo | Shirik what about it? it's a guid |
| 19:37.45 | Castigo | where the fourth char is a "C" i belive or a '4' i can't remember |
| 19:38.49 | Castigo | Shirik: ? |
| 19:38.57 | Shirik | hm I thought guid had a segment in it indicating its owner, guess not |
| 19:39.31 | Shirik | oh no, it's in the flags |
| 19:39.45 | nevcairiel | the flags tell you if its a pet, and if its your pet |
| 19:39.51 | nevcairiel | not who the owner is |
| 19:39.57 | Shirik | Controller? |
| 19:40.20 | Shirik | I haven't bothered to mess with pets, but there is a "Controller" section in flags |
| 19:40.39 | nevcairiel | the flags are way too short to indicate a owner |
| 19:40.42 | Castigo | nevcariel Health Funnel for example have both source and dest guid to be the caster's one |
| 19:40.47 | Shirik | well then someone's wrong on wowwiki |
| 19:40.52 | Castigo | and i don't have any kindere spirits in my log either |
| 19:40.53 | Shirik | which is not unheard of |
| 19:40.58 | nevcairiel | the flags are 32-bit iirc |
| 19:41.06 | nevcairiel | the guid is 128? |
| 19:41.09 | Lopeppeppy | Oh noes, someone is wrong on the intertubes! |
| 19:42.10 | Shirik | I see it was a stupid change on wowwiki nevcairiel |
| 19:42.19 | Shirik | I should rever it |
| 19:42.22 | Shirik | revert |
| 19:42.52 | *** join/#wowuidev Srosh (n=Srosh@c210045.adsl.hansenet.de) |
| 19:43.02 | Shirik | But I'm not going to revert it without fact checking myself |
| 19:43.04 | *** join/#wowuidev Dark_Elf (n=Dark_Elf@206.169.253.156) |
| 19:43.05 | Shirik | so until then |
| 19:43.05 | Shirik | blah |
| 19:43.11 | nevcairiel | lol |
| 19:43.26 | Castigo | nevcairiel the fourth byte of the GUID string (so 0x0X00000000) X='4' for a pet that's the info i get from the pet damage spells i belive |
| 19:43.49 | nevcairiel | combatlog events do not hold the pet->owner association. you have to catch a SPELL_SUMMON or related event or do some guess-work on spells that only work owner -> pet |
| 19:43.55 | Castigo | *fifth sorry |
| 19:43.58 | batrick | I love how the compilation authors feel they have a say in this new policy change. |
| 19:44.22 | Castigo | nevcairiel i'm open to do a guess-work, but i sitll can't figure out how |
| 19:44.30 | Castigo | 'cause health funnel for example can't be used |
| 19:44.37 | Castigo | neither kindred sirits |
| 19:44.43 | Shirik | batrick: :) |
| 19:46.07 | Castigo | any other ideas nevcairiel? :) |
| 19:48.37 | Shirik | What are the modes on this channel? |
| 19:48.41 | Shirik | I see +cqnt |
| 19:48.41 | Duman | blargh |
| 19:48.44 | Shirik | which makes no sense |
| 19:48.45 | Duman | 324 Mode for channel #wowuidev is "+tncg" |
| 19:48.49 | End | that's a g |
| 19:48.50 | Shirik | oh that's a g |
| 19:48.50 | End | not a q |
| 19:48.55 | Shirik | It's cut off |
| 19:49.01 | Duman | l2font! |
| 19:49.37 | *** join/#wowuidev Iriel (n=Iriel@adsl-71-158-244-138.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) |
| 19:49.37 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o Iriel] by ChanServ |
| 19:50.37 | Lunessa | Women, Can't live with 'em, can't ship 'em off to the ASPCA. |
| 19:50.42 | Fisker- | IMMA CHARGIN MAH TROUT |
| 19:51.07 | Lopeppeppy | That's right, today is the Time Wasting, isn't it Lunessa? I'm sorry. |
| 19:51.18 | Castigo | none has ideas/suggestion on that? |
| 19:51.50 | Lunessa | Castigo: You need to look at the GID for the unit. Pet's have GIDs linked to their owners. |
| 19:52.13 | *** join/#wowuidev malikeye (n=malikeye@cpe-071-070-237-230.nc.res.rr.com) |
| 19:52.22 | Castigo | linked in which way? |
| 19:52.34 | Lunessa | http://www.wowwiki.com/API_COMBAT_LOG_EVENT |
| 19:54.06 | Castigo | lunessa: "Pet GUIDs seem to have some encoding similar to NPC GUIDs, though further investigation is required. The upper bytes appear to be persistent between summoning, but it doesn't appear to have a direct relationship with either the pet type, nor the pet owner, so identification of its owner, or type will need to be through other means" |
| 19:54.17 | Castigo | from the link u just gave me |
| 19:54.47 | Lunessa | I see the page needs a bit of updating. |
| 19:55.40 | Lopeppeppy | Understatement? |
| 19:56.30 | Castigo | well if u tell me how is it related i'm happy anyway :P |
| 19:56.57 | *** join/#wowuidev DKluge (n=dsquare@S0106001b1168ce28.va.shawcable.net) |
| 19:57.09 | Lunessa | But the information give you by nevcairiel is correct too. I assume you're trying to figure out who's water elemental is shooting the wrong mob. |
| 19:57.55 | *** join/#wowuidev QQngsk (n=Gngsk@c-69-138-214-242.hsd1.md.comcast.net) |
| 19:57.57 | Castigo | lunessa yes sort of |
| 19:58.09 | Castigo | not exactly that condition but the same 'idea' behind it |
| 19:58.25 | Castigo | and once again i repeat that nevcariel idea is inapplicable unless he bring examples where it works |
| 19:58.27 | zenzelezz | yeah, he's looking at imps |
| 19:58.27 | Lunessa | For example, a warlock's imp will always have the same upper bytes. |
| 19:58.47 | Castigo | 'cause "guess-work" from spells CAN'T work neither guaranteed |
| 19:58.57 | Castigo | that pet detection is done properly |
| 19:59.20 | Castigo | Lunessa that doesn't tell me who's imp is that |
| 19:59.27 | Lunessa | Warlock A's Imp will always have the same GID. |
| 20:00.15 | Tekkub | Lunessa, it was you whining about chrome plugins right? |
| 20:00.17 | Tekkub | http://dev.chromium.org/developers/design-documents/extensions/howto |
| 20:00.31 | nevcairiel | Thats mentioned on the page, but there is no direct way to associate the GID with the players GUID, unless you see one "summon" event |
| 20:00.34 | *** part/#wowuidev Aznamir (n=aznamir@ool-43544a0d.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 20:00.56 | Lunessa | Tekkub: Woo! Thanks! |
| 20:01.02 | Castigo | Lunessa even if it changes, i can't see how this related with "who is the owner" question |
| 20:01.22 | Castigo | i might be thick |
| 20:01.25 | Tekkub | hopefully they flesh out a *real* config soon instead of this adding flags to the load call crap |
| 20:01.28 | Castigo | :) |
| 20:01.37 | Lopeppeppy | Castigo -- is it possible to throw out this one combat log and just make it a rule that your peeeps summon once the raid is formed, and not before? |
| 20:01.50 | Lopeppeppy | 'cause this is a lot of headache for something that doesn't seem so very possible. |
| 20:01.59 | Lunessa | The point is you're going to have to capture the association at some point yourself. I mean, how the hell many pets are you really dealing with? |
| 20:02.35 | Lunessa | But once you know a pet's GID, you know it will never change, and you can make the association in your own code. |
| 20:03.03 | Castigo | if i am parsing a combat log that is not mine, it could be like 50 pets i don't know. wws process it correctly tho |
| 20:03.05 | Castigo | \ |
| 20:03.09 | Castigo | or atleast better than me |
| 20:03.15 | Castigo | so there must be a way |
| 20:03.49 | Lopeppeppy | WWS usually has multiple logs submitted for one report, it has tons to work with. |
| 20:03.58 | Castigo | i'm comparing a log i got on the same into wws to verify that the parser i wrote works correctly |
| 20:03.59 | Lopeppeppy | My raid group wanted a minimum of 10 logs per run. |
| 20:04.08 | Castigo | Lopeppeppy i'm using 1 log, it's a test |
| 20:04.13 | Castigo | i uploaded the same log i have |
| 20:04.15 | Castigo | in wws |
| 20:04.19 | Castigo | and i'm comparing the results |
| 20:04.29 | Castigo | the only differences are associated to class that "has" pets |
| 20:04.50 | Castigo | that demostrate that my parser works, but still shows that there are "holes" into the evaluation |
| 20:04.53 | Fisker- | well Tekkub are there actually any extensions yet then? |
| 20:05.41 | Tekkub | dunno, haven't looked, but that only works if you're on the dev builds anyway |
| 20:05.41 | Castigo | so unless wws associate the pets "randomly" |
| 20:05.47 | Lopeppeppy | It might, Castigo. |
| 20:05.54 | Castigo | there is something i am missing |
| 20:05.56 | Lopeppeppy | Or maybe somewhere in the log are summoning events you're not seeing? |
| 20:05.56 | Fisker- | lol |
| 20:06.08 | Fisker- | Tekkub it was implemented 4 days ago |
| 20:06.09 | Fisker- | :D |
| 20:06.14 | Lopeppeppy | Parsing combat logs is like.... telekenetics. |
| 20:06.15 | Tekkub | yup |
| 20:06.24 | Lopeppeppy | Do you believe in it? Then it will work for you. |
| 20:06.30 | Lopeppeppy | Do I? No? Then I poke holes in it. |
| 20:06.34 | Castigo | and lope it doesn't really matter if u have 25 logs coming from different sources, if an hunter step inside a raid zone with a pet, the pet never dies (assuming that a pet ress is a SPELL_SUMMON) 25 source won't have a clue who's pet is who |
| 20:07.11 | End | some spells can only be between master and pet |
| 20:07.24 | End | mend pet for example |
| 20:07.58 | Castigo | Mend pet dest guid is NULL |
| 20:08.19 | Castigo | mend pet 'aura' dest guid contains a guid so that in theory can be used as guess-work |
| 20:08.29 | Castigo | Assuming that it's used atleast once during a raid |
| 20:08.33 | Castigo | End, some other examples? :P |
| 20:08.37 | *** join/#wowuidev Tenchworks (n=none@76-231-27-217.lightspeed.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net) |
| 20:08.48 | End | that was the only one I can think of off the top of my head :P |
| 20:08.51 | Lopeppeppy | Health funnel? |
| 20:09.10 | Castigo | health funnel has dest guid of the caster |
| 20:09.17 | End | yeah, but personally I don't use health funnel |
| 20:09.18 | Castigo | and source guid of the caster |
| 20:09.26 | End | if I have to health funnel, I should just let my pet die |
| 20:09.35 | Castigo | Mana tap, demonic empowerment - might not be used |
| 20:09.40 | Kalroth | End: and yell at healers! |
| 20:09.49 | Lopeppeppy | No yell at healers. Rawr. |
| 20:09.58 | End | usually AoE heals do enough |
| 20:10.03 | End | although, I gotta say |
| 20:10.04 | Castigo | yell at urself, not at the healers :P |
| 20:10.08 | zenzelezz | Lopeppeppy: http://icanhascheezburger.com/2009/03/21/funny-pictures-quick-hide-teh-body/ |
| 20:10.13 | End | THANK GOD blizzard fixed saph's frost aura |
| 20:10.45 | End | it was idiotic to try to keep my pet alive through that before they made it "an AoE" |
| 20:11.25 | Castigo | End ok in my test wowlog u "managed" to associate 1 pet to 1 owner, i still got 5 pets "running" around with no owner :P |
| 20:11.46 | End | there's probably talents |
| 20:11.55 | End | like BM's kindred spirits |
| 20:12.22 | End | although, I'm not sure how the game "applies" those |
| 20:12.35 | End | unfortunately you might be only able to "guess" on that one |
| 20:12.40 | Castigo | no kindrer spirit in my "testlog" :) |
| 20:12.53 | End | no surprise there I suppose |
| 20:13.14 | Castigo | (i wonder who still raid as BM tbh :P) |
| 20:13.25 | End | very few people |
| 20:13.38 | *** join/#wowuidev Funkeh` (n=funk@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/Ace3/BigWigs/funkeh) |
| 20:13.43 | Castigo | before u say |
| 20:13.51 | Castigo | No Demonic Empowerment either |
| 20:14.03 | ZorbaTHut | castigo, can you see the "mending" effects showing up in the log also? If so, then mend pet + mend effect + no other mending recently = link |
| 20:14.13 | End | did you try Dark Pact? |
| 20:14.30 | Castigo | no Dark pact in log |
| 20:14.40 | End | Soul Link? |
| 20:15.00 | Castigo | ZorbaTHut mind pet trigger a SPELL_AURA_APPLIED with source guid of caster, dest guid of pet = link (and i assume any hunter uses that in any raid) |
| 20:15.04 | Castigo | no soul link either :P |
| 20:15.19 | End | what classes are missing? |
| 20:15.31 | Castigo | Locks and DK i'd say |
| 20:15.47 | Castigo | (and maybe bit bigger detection for hunters, even tho i suppose any decent hunter uses mend pet, even surv spec) |
| 20:17.25 | Fisker- | hah |
| 20:17.31 | Fisker- | atleast there's adblock for chrome |
| 20:17.33 | Fisker- | bawww |
| 20:18.31 | Cidan | there is? |
| 20:18.38 | Cidan | I just use privoxy |
| 20:18.40 | Tekkub | indirectly :P |
| 20:18.46 | Tekkub | I just use a big hosts file |
| 20:19.02 | Tekkub | and load without plugins to make flash go away |
| 20:19.40 | Fisker- | http://i39.tinypic.com/zjdwfp.png |
| 20:19.41 | Fisker- | bawww |
| 20:20.00 | Tekkub | ah, so you went and searched eh |
| 20:20.04 | Tekkub | work well? |
| 20:20.15 | Fisker- | works fine yeah :o |
| 20:20.19 | Fisker- | atleast for wow adds |
| 20:20.36 | Fisker- | nukes all by default |
| 20:20.38 | Tekkub | I know you're trying to hide it |
| 20:20.45 | Tekkub | but I see your gmail and greader |
| 20:20.55 | Castigo | End u ran out of ideas? :P |
| 20:21.17 | End | I didn't think of any others |
| 20:21.20 | Fisker- | nahuh Tekkub |
| 20:21.48 | Fisker- | It's more the 3 first tabs i'm hiding :P |
| 20:23.33 | *** join/#wowuidev Funkeh`` (n=funk@host81-158-169-141.range81-158.btcentralplus.com) |
| 20:23.53 | *** join/#wowuidev Nequin (n=chatzill@cpe-76-84-213-8.neb.res.rr.com) |
| 20:25.35 | *** join/#wowuidev Hirsute-Home (i=chatzill@WoWUIDev/Norganna/Developer/Hirsute) |
| 20:25.56 | *** join/#wowuidev Nequin_ (n=chatzill@76.84.213.8) |
| 20:30.52 | *** join/#wowuidev Nequin__ (n=chatzill@76.84.213.8) |
| 20:32.06 | Lunessa | cogwheel: the tax id moron is just that, a moron. |
| 20:32.15 | cogwheel | *nod* |
| 20:32.24 | cogwheel | he's got one more chance before i ignore him |
| 20:32.30 | Lunessa | specious argument is specious |
| 20:32.39 | *** join/#wowuidev Nequin___ (n=chatzill@76.84.213.8) |
| 20:34.43 | Castigo | Lunessa anyway were u just "guessing" there was a relationship between the 2 guids, or u knew it and it's not updated on wowwiki? |
| 20:35.42 | Lunessa | Castigo: The relationship is that Player GID never changes, and his pet's GID doesn't change. Once you see the two, you know the relationship. I didn't mean anything other than that. |
| 20:35.58 | *** join/#wowuidev Dewin (n=Daniel@c-71-59-222-35.hsd1.or.comcast.net) |
| 20:36.20 | foxlit | what if he gets a different pet? |
| 20:36.30 | Castigo | the guid changes in that case |
| 20:37.15 | Lunessa | Succubus is a different GID than Imp. |
| 20:38.01 | Lunessa | Note: I don't work with this stuff daily. I don't parse the log for anything. I just read the source and the wowwiki entry. |
| 20:39.16 | Castigo | i just wonder if wws associates the pets randomly or what :) |
| 20:39.51 | Castigo | i suppose if none here has ideas |
| 20:39.54 | *** join/#wowuidev ecstasia (n=ecs@unaffiliated/ecstasia) |
| 20:39.57 | Castigo | then there must not be a way |
| 20:40.03 | *** join/#wowuidev Slakah (n=james@5ad5da43.bb.sky.com) |
| 20:40.20 | *** join/#wowuidev Jamash (n=Jamash@75-25-130-215.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 20:40.38 | Castigo | well... |
| 20:40.39 | Castigo | ehm... |
| 20:40.57 | Castigo | wowmeter detect the same pets as wws for the same log |
| 20:41.02 | Castigo | = there MUSt be a way |
| 20:44.44 | Thunder_Child | does the first part of this description seem a little odd http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/web-epgp.aspx |
| 20:46.15 | Hjalte | Yes. Especially since version 1.2 is on both Curse and wowinterface. |
| 20:46.26 | Lunessa | Castigo: Why not have a nice read through http://wowcompares.com/3099551/AddOns/Blizzard_CombatLog/Blizzard_CombatLog.lua and the rest of the Combat Log Code ? |
| 20:47.22 | *** join/#wowuidev Shirik|Berry (n=Shirik|B@conspiracy/developer/Shirik) |
| 20:47.22 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o Shirik|Berry] by ChanServ |
| 20:48.08 | Castigo | Lunessa beacouse it's bloody messy lua :) |
| 20:48.53 | Castigo | i'd rather decompile wws's java log parser (assming that the log is parsed locally) |
| 20:50.40 | Jamash | I finally figured out a way to keep my authenticator with my laptop |
| 20:50.40 | Jamash | I put it on my BlizzCon lanyard and looped it around |
| 20:51.15 | Xinhuan | why is that writer's strike thread growing faster than the main policy one lol |
| 20:51.20 | Cidan | I put on my robe and wizard hat. |
| 20:51.38 | cogwheel | I put on my leather vest and addon author hat |
| 20:51.55 | Thunder_Child | cogwheel, isnt that Cairenn|afk's whip? |
| 20:52.21 | cogwheel | Thunder_Child: no :( she'd never let me near hers |
| 20:52.22 | cogwheel | <.< |
| 20:52.23 | cogwheel | >> |
| 20:52.24 | nevcairiel | Jamash: hehe i have mine on my BC lan yard i got from the GamesCon expo in 2006 |
| 20:52.43 | Tekkub | so cog's in a better mood today? :P |
| 20:52.57 | *** join/#wowuidev Vilkku (n=Vilkku@86-60-154-192-dyn-dsl.ssp.fi) |
| 20:53.00 | ScytheBlade1 | You can only sit there in a rage such as that for so long before burning out :P |
| 20:53.06 | cogwheel | Tekkub: not really |
| 20:53.12 | cogwheel | just manifesting it differently |
| 20:53.16 | cogwheel | (e.g. intoxicants) |
| 20:53.19 | ScytheBlade1 | heh |
| 20:53.22 | ScytheBlade1 | I've got some lortab! |
| 20:53.46 | Castigo | i bet Scythe or cogwheel know the answer to my problem :P |
| 20:53.53 | Fisker- | i'm gonna go stroke my cog |
| 20:54.11 | cogwheel | Castigo: nope... i'm not to the combat log chapter yet >< |
| 20:54.39 | Castigo | bet ScytheBlade1 is :P |
| 20:54.47 | ScytheBlade1 | hmm? |
| 20:54.50 | ScytheBlade1 | what problem? |
| 20:54.51 | Lopeppeppy | The best part about living alone? When the cover is on too tightly, I have no one to blame except myself. |
| 20:56.57 | ZorbaTHut | heirloom items are amusing. I hit level 68 and my spellpower instantly jumped by 150 |
| 20:57.24 | Castigo | ScytheBlade1 how to associate a pet to an owner, parsing the combat log |
| 20:57.47 | ScytheBlade1 | I'm decently sure you can't without seeing the pet spawn spell |
| 20:58.01 | ScytheBlade1 | (Unless you are the owner of said pet) |
| 20:58.06 | Castigo | ScytheBlade1 so how does mmo and wmo does? |
| 20:58.15 | *** join/#wowuidev ecs (n=ecs@unaffiliated/ecstasia) |
| 20:58.15 | ScytheBlade1 | Again in english? |
| 20:58.27 | ScytheBlade1 | mmo? wmo? |
| 20:58.30 | ScytheBlade1 | No idea what those are |
| 20:58.32 | Castigo | how does wws and wmo associate the pet and the owner then |
| 20:58.38 | Castigo | wmo is wowmeteronline.com |
| 20:58.48 | *** join/#wowuidev Aelobin (n=Aelobin@79-79-254-85.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) |
| 20:58.51 | ScytheBlade1 | Guestimation and the spawn events |
| 20:58.57 | cogwheel | http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=58565586308 |
| 20:59.08 | ScytheBlade1 | ie, only the owner can cast mend pet on their own pet |
| 20:59.13 | Lopeppeppy | I still don't understand heirloom items, ZorbaTHut, what the heck are they? |
| 20:59.16 | Castigo | there are no spawn events, no mend pet |
| 20:59.19 | ScytheBlade1 | A warlock can only sac their own demon |
| 20:59.30 | Castigo | and i don't belive that is associated randomly |
| 20:59.34 | ZorbaTHut | lope, they're items you buy with heroic badges and mail to your other characters |
| 20:59.38 | nevcairiel | I'm not joining facebook to join some silly group =P |
| 20:59.49 | ZorbaTHut | they level up with the character - they're about the same quality as a well-itemized blue item of whatever level the character is. |
| 21:00.19 | ZorbaTHut | so it's like having a few blue items that permanently level up with you, and you pay for them by running heroics. (or getting wintergrasp shards, I think) |
| 21:00.26 | Lopeppeppy | Oh neat, Zorba. That's why I don't know about htem, I don't have heroic badges tos pend. |
| 21:00.34 | nevcairiel | the heirlooms are really nice on the level though |
| 21:00.36 | Lopeppeppy | And i can't spell, either. Sorry. |
| 21:00.38 | DKluge | also there is at least one heirloom item that gives you extra XP |
| 21:00.39 | ZorbaTHut | yeah, they're quite cool. Very handy if you hit max with one character and decide to level up some alts |
| 21:00.58 | ZorbaTHut | plus, there's a shoulder item and two trinkets, so you can mail them to a lv1 character and have a bunch of slots filled that would normally take forever |
| 21:00.58 | ScytheBlade1 | Castigo: I am pretty darn sure that the only way to match pets to owners is analysing the events over time. |
| 21:01.00 | nevcairiel | ya the shoulder items get you 10% extra exp from killing mobs |
| 21:01.11 | Castigo | ScytheBlade1 no sacrifice, and only 1 mend pet in the log i am using as test, both wws and mmo associates the pets correctly to their owners |
| 21:01.12 | ZorbaTHut | (and the trinkets aren't unique, so you can get two spellpower trinkets ;) ) |
| 21:01.13 | Shirik|Berry | The shoulders help immensely |
| 21:01.14 | Xinhuan | ZorbaTHut, how much time do you take to update QH daily (before today)? |
| 21:01.31 | Castigo | ScytheBlade1 i'm pretty sure too, i wonder how can i do it |
| 21:01.40 | Shirik|Berry | Best purchase I ever made |
| 21:01.49 | ZorbaTHut | xinhuan, I really couldn't say. I did a lot of development on it and a lot of thinking about it. I considered it my full-time job and wasn't working on any other projects (okay that's slightly a lie, but there was only maybe a week in the last half-year dedicated to other projects) |
| 21:02.04 | Xinhuan | why does it take that much time? |
| 21:02.15 | ZorbaTHut | I have many thousands of lines of new code in v1.0 |
| 21:02.22 | Lunessa | Lopeppeppy: Cover on too tightly = euphemism? |
| 21:02.24 | ZorbaTHut | most of the stuff I've done isn't released yet, unfortunately |
| 21:02.25 | Fisker- | /agree. I whould like a high quality Wow and low. Since I have an ownage computer its kinda wasted on wow. It can run it at 5-20% CPU. But my laptop whould still like the low quality. It whould make it better for the players with better computers. |
| 21:02.28 | Fisker- | i facepalmed |
| 21:02.37 | Xinhuan | so this 1.0 is really a "totally new addon" that nobody has ever seen? |
| 21:02.48 | ScytheBlade1 | Castigo: there are about 1923078492837489 varibles involved in any one log. For example. The mend pet would match the hunter pet to the hunter. From there, it would be obvious that the warlock pet belongs to the warlock. Further, you could infer that the other hunter pet belongs to the other hunter |
| 21:03.02 | ScytheBlade1 | Castigo: you don't need an explicit event to determine pet ownership |
| 21:03.05 | ZorbaTHut | xinhuan, it's not totally new - it's sort of like a brain transplant |
| 21:03.17 | ZorbaTHut | it still does the same thing, and has the same interface, but it's basically been gutted and rebuilt from the inside |
| 21:03.19 | nevcairiel | ZorbaTHut: like kills the patient? :D |
| 21:03.28 | Xinhuan | haha |
| 21:03.35 | Lopeppeppy | no Lunessa... I had a very hard time getting the lid off the mayo jar. |
| 21:03.36 | Xinhuan | if only brain transplants worked irl |
| 21:03.47 | Xinhuan | i would recommend brain transplants to a lot of people |
| 21:03.55 | ZorbaTHut | uses about half as much CPU and, on startup, half as much RAM right now |
| 21:03.58 | Xinhuan | and guildies |
| 21:04.01 | nevcairiel | they would just end up in another body |
| 21:04.04 | *** join/#wowuidev m35 (n=m35@user-0c9h38o.cable.mindspring.com) |
| 21:04.05 | ZorbaTHut | although some of the old code is still in there and leaking since it no longer ties into anything useful |
| 21:04.07 | Lunessa | Lopeppeppy: Theres' another version available for Stone Keeper Shards which can be redeemed in Wintersgrasp too. Those are more PVP oriented. |
| 21:04.08 | nevcairiel | not being smarter afterwards or anything |
| 21:04.27 | ZorbaTHut | generates vastly better routes in the process, and it should be much easier to work on as well :) |
| 21:04.46 | Lopeppeppy | Mmm, pvp. Not.... |
| 21:04.58 | Xinhuan | what algorithm did you end up using |
| 21:05.01 | Xinhuan | for your routes |
| 21:05.24 | Lopeppeppy | Okie dokie, question. What's the best way to report an issue with the forums forgetting what character I'm logged in as posting with? |
| 21:05.37 | Xinhuan | Lopeppeppy: post on bug report forums |
| 21:05.45 | Lunessa | I bought some of those items because they still have the +10% XP bonus on them, and Stone Keeper Shard are fantastically easy to get. |
| 21:06.01 | nevcairiel | I'm still saving my shards for the mount |
| 21:06.04 | ZorbaTHut | xinhuan, oh yeah, you're the guy who did Routes, right? I used ant colony optimization, which I thank you for introducing me to :) |
| 21:06.10 | nevcairiel | i don't really run any 5mans anymore |
| 21:06.24 | Xinhuan | yeah zorba, i do routes (and omen) ;p |
| 21:06.41 | Xinhuan | ACO is really a fascinating topic |
| 21:06.51 | ZorbaTHut | yeah, it really is. Works quite well. |
| 21:06.58 | Xinhuan | i did research on it using CUDA on graphics cards to try to optimize it |
| 21:07.01 | ZorbaTHut | I suspect there's still some space for improvement here |
| 21:07.13 | Cidan | lol |
| 21:07.15 | Cidan | cog |
| 21:07.20 | Cidan | lol@facebook |
| 21:07.28 | ZorbaTHut | oh, btw, were you flattening your 2d distance/weight arrays into 1d arrays? I did that for a while, but found it was actually faster to do weights[x][y] |
| 21:07.36 | Xinhuan | yes |
| 21:07.52 | Lopeppeppy | Extra XP? Gods I could use that. |
| 21:07.55 | ZorbaTHut | I'd recommend unflattening - I got a significant performance boost out of it, as well as getting rid of the node limit |
| 21:07.59 | Xinhuan | instead of weight[x][y], it was much faster to do weight[x*N-y] |
| 21:08.06 | ZorbaTHut | weird, I found the exact opposite |
| 21:08.08 | Xinhuan | i got the complete opposite |
| 21:08.15 | ZorbaTHut | go figure |
| 21:08.15 | Xinhuan | my code ran 30% faster in 1d array |
| 21:08.24 | ZorbaTHut | mine ran about 30% faster in 2d array :P |
| 21:08.38 | Lunessa | nevcairiel: I bought the mount, two sets of shoulder, a weapon, and I almost have enough shards for another weapon. I'm a 5-man running foo! |
| 21:08.43 | Xinhuan | how did you create your arrays though |
| 21:09.10 | Xinhuan | you need to take into account that a table lookup is on avg 0.5N on a hash table |
| 21:09.19 | Lunessa | Xinhuan: Have you read the book "The Hacker and the Ants"? It's fiction based on that very topic. |
| 21:09.20 | Xinhuan | but O(1) on a indexed table |
| 21:09.48 | ZorbaTHut | xinhuan, I expanded all my arrays from 1, I believe |
| 21:09.56 | ZorbaTHut | pretty sure I was careful to do that consistently :) |
| 21:10.00 | Fisker- | breathe with me |
| 21:10.14 | Fisker- | oh wait i just farted |
| 21:10.25 | Xinhuan | well i don't know why you got opposite results |
| 21:10.44 | Xinhuan | but i can assure you a * and + and table lookup operation is faster than 2 table lookups |
| 21:11.06 | *** part/#wowuidev Shirik|Berry (n=Shirik|B@conspiracy/developer/Shirik) |
| 21:11.23 | *** join/#wowuidev smallbrain (i=smallbra@geektour.de) |
| 21:11.35 | Xinhuan | essentially a 2darray is 2 lookups |
| 21:12.08 | Xinhuan | and a single table lookup is going to be on a factor that is way longer to execute than x*N-y |
| 21:12.08 | ZorbaTHut | yeah, I can't explain it. Maybe I'll go back and change it back someday just to doublecheck |
| 21:12.22 | ZorbaTHut | although, actually, I probably wouldn't because I might need that node limit relaxation eventually |
| 21:12.37 | Xinhuan | i doubt you will ever need to go over 726 nodes |
| 21:12.47 | ZorbaTHut | actually, I'm almost certain I will ;) |
| 21:12.51 | ZorbaTHut | I want to toss in achievements |
| 21:13.00 | ZorbaTHut | and, well, the exploration achievement has a horrifying number of nodes. |
| 21:13.06 | Xinhuan | screw that, you already said you won't add new features :) |
| 21:13.29 | ZorbaTHut | I'm not adding anything altruistically, but I want that for its own sake ;) |
| 21:13.46 | ZorbaTHut | I'll basically be adding the exact set of achievements that I personally want :) |
| 21:14.04 | nevcairiel | exploration isn't hard without QH imho =) |
| 21:15.06 | ZorbaTHut | nev, it isn't, true. But it's easier with, especially if you've got locations all over the map. Optimal routing is nice. |
| 21:15.18 | ZorbaTHut | really, the routing has always been the part I'm interested in. |
| 21:15.20 | nevcairiel | Where is the fun in that! |
| 21:15.47 | nevcairiel | A monkey can follow an arrow on a screen :) |
| 21:15.55 | ZorbaTHut | man, level 68 for a druid is really a kick in the pants |
| 21:16.09 | nevcairiel | how so? |
| 21:16.09 | ZorbaTHut | "Hey, you've got Flight Form now! AWESOME! Also, welcome to Northrend, you can't fly until level 77 here" |
| 21:16.14 | nevcairiel | heh |
| 21:16.16 | Lunessa | ook ook. Press Button. Get Banana. Oook ook |
| 21:17.40 | Xinhuan | here's some comparison zorba |
| 21:17.52 | Xinhuan | consider this |
| 21:17.53 | Xinhuan | lua> a = {}; for i = 1, 1000000 do a[i] = i end; t = os.clock(); for i = 1, 1e7 do local p = a[10000] end print(os.clock()-t) |
| 21:17.54 | lua_bot | Xinhuan: 0.73 |
| 21:18.07 | Xinhuan | a 1d table of length 1 million |
| 21:18.13 | m35 | I'm writing a bag/inventory related addon. I've spent a great deail of time understanding, and have a pretty good understanding of WoW's bag UI design. I'm writing a bag/inventory related addon. I've spent a great deail of time understanding, and have a pretty good grasp on WoW's bag UI design. However I see some functions call ManageBackpackTokenFrame(), which is decalred in Blizzard_TokenUI.lua, which manipulates the BackpackTokenFrame. Cou |
| 21:18.13 | m35 | game. |
| 21:18.19 | Xinhuan | and accessing a[100000] 1e7 times |
| 21:18.29 | Xinhuan | now consider this |
| 21:18.32 | Xinhuan | lua> a = {}; for i = 1, 1000 do a[i] = {} for j = 1, 1000 do a[i][j] = i end end; t = os.clock(); for i = 1, 1e7 do local p = a[100][100] end print(os.clock()-t) |
| 21:18.33 | lua_bot | Xinhuan: 0.97 |
| 21:18.43 | Xinhuan | a 2d table of 1 million (or 1000x1000) |
| 21:18.49 | Xinhuan | and accessing a[100][100] |
| 21:18.57 | Xinhuan | its roughly 30% slower |
| 21:19.15 | Xinhuan | i probably should "local a" though |
| 21:19.18 | m35 | woops. anyway, i hope that made sense |
| 21:19.19 | ZorbaTHut | lua> a = {}; for i = 1, 1000000 do a[i] = i end; t = os.clock(); for i = 1, 1e7 do local p = a[100 * 100 - 100] end print(os.clock()-t) |
| 21:19.20 | lua_bot | ZorbaTHut: 0.68 |
| 21:19.27 | ZorbaTHut | huh. Yeah, you're right. It should be slower. |
| 21:19.36 | ZorbaTHut | It wasn't, I benchmarked it. I'm really not sure what happened there. |
| 21:19.52 | Xinhuan | but whether i local "a" or not isn't relevant |
| 21:19.57 | Xinhuan | since in both cases, they are global |
| 21:20.08 | krka | it might skew the actual performance difference |
| 21:20.34 | Xinhuan | lua> local a = {}; for i = 1, 1000000 do a[i] = i end; t = os.clock(); for i = 1, 1e7 do local p = a[10000] end print(os.clock()-t) |
| 21:20.34 | lua_bot | Xinhuan: 0.38 |
| 21:20.39 | Xinhuan | that's 1d table with a local a |
| 21:20.53 | Xinhuan | lua> local a = {}; for i = 1, 1000 do a[i] = {} for j = 1, 1000 do a[i][j] = i end end; t = os.clock(); for i = 1, 1e7 do local p = a[100][100] end print(os.clock()-t) |
| 21:20.54 | lua_bot | Xinhuan: 0.68 |
| 21:21.00 | Xinhuan | 2d table with a local a |
| 21:21.18 | Xinhuan | lua> local a = {}; for i = 1, 1000000 do a[i] = i end; t = os.clock(); for i = 1, 1e7 do local p = a[100*100-100] end print(os.clock()-t) |
| 21:21.18 | lua_bot | Xinhuan: 0.38 |
| 21:21.19 | krka | lua> local a = {}; for i = 1, 1000 do a[i] = {} for j = 1, 1000 do a[i][j] = i end end; t = os.clock(); for i = 1, 1e7 do |
| 21:21.19 | lua_bot | krka: luabot:1: 'end' expected near '<eof>' |
| 21:21.26 | Xinhuan | that's 1d table with multiplying out the index |
| 21:21.26 | krka | lua> local a = {}; for i = 1, 1000 do a[i] = {} for j = 1, 1000 do a[i][j] = i end end; t = os.clock(); for i = 1, 1e7 do end print(os.clock() -t) |
| 21:21.26 | lua_bot | krka: 0.09 |
| 21:21.31 | krka | that's the empty loop :) |
| 21:21.42 | krka | so 0.59 vs 0.29 |
| 21:21.48 | Xinhuan | basically the multiplying out took nearly 0 time |
| 21:22.11 | krka | math is cheap, lookups are expensive |
| 21:22.18 | Xinhuan | i highly suggest you go relook at your code, i cannot imagine why a 2d table would be 30% faster, when its quite the opposite ZorbaTHut ;p |
| 21:22.18 | krka | who would have thunk it |
| 21:22.39 | ZorbaTHut | xinhuan, couldn't say, really. although, at this point, it's probably not gonna be changed significantly ;) |
| 21:22.57 | Xinhuan | 30% is a significant improvement that should be changed! |
| 21:23.49 | m35 | Additionally, could anyone explain the relationship between the SetBackdrop() function, and manually setting textures and calling SetTexCoord()? They both seem to set the texture of a frame, but is there ever a case where you would use both? Or is SetBackdrop() just a shortcut for what you could do manually with lots of texture manipulation and SetTexCoord() calls? |
| 21:24.00 | Xinhuan | its really a matter of replacing all t[x][y] to t[x*N-y], you can regex that |
| 21:24.12 | Zootfizzle | m35: That's pretty much correct |
| 21:24.52 | krka | -y? why not +y? |
| 21:24.56 | ZorbaTHut | unfortunately it isn't, I also have to do some changes to how I deal with creating new nodes |
| 21:25.01 | Aelobin | hmm according to these noobs, in the patch after 3.1.0 (which will be 3.1.2), all race/class combinations will be possible: http://jtty.com/307d?WoWNews#Patch312 |
| 21:25.06 | Xinhuan | so that the table starts at 0, not N krka |
| 21:25.17 | Xinhuan | 0 to N-1 |
| 21:25.27 | ZorbaTHut | aelobin, I saw that same page, it was pretty interesting |
| 21:25.33 | Xinhuan | rather than N to N+n |
| 21:25.44 | Xinhuan | i mean n to N+n |
| 21:25.45 | m35 | Zootfizzle: thanks for that clarification |
| 21:25.51 | *** join/#wowuidev Mooninaut (n=Jamash@75-25-130-215.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net) |
| 21:25.52 | krka | depends on what you start c ounting at? |
| 21:25.59 | Lopeppeppy | Script request -- What's the script for finding out what frame is under your mouse? Like when it's an invisible annoying frame you can't see? |
| 21:26.07 | krka | if x and y start at 0,0 |
| 21:26.11 | Xinhuan | yes, but lua's table mechanics makes you want to start at 1-N |
| 21:26.16 | krka | in fact, with -y you'll go into negatives |
| 21:26.16 | ScytheBlade1 | Lopeppeppy: /run GetMouseFocus():GetName() |
| 21:26.17 | Xinhuan | so that the table remains a indexed table |
| 21:26.26 | Lopeppeppy | Thank you, ScytheBlade1. *hug* |
| 21:26.38 | Xinhuan | an indexed table has O(1) lookup time, its just a memory offset |
| 21:26.44 | ScytheBlade1 | Lopeppeppy: np. brb epic migraine with three assignments due Monday. :) |
| 21:26.49 | Xinhuan | a hashed table on the other hand has O(N) lookup time |
| 21:26.55 | *** join/#wowuidev Esamynn|Away (n=nchatzil@d64-180-70-86.bchsia.telus.net) |
| 21:26.58 | krka | wtf are you smoking? |
| 21:27.09 | ZorbaTHut | xinhuan, O(log n) at worst, surely |
| 21:27.19 | Xinhuan | well fine, O(log n) |
| 21:27.25 | krka | hashtables generally have constant lookup time |
| 21:27.27 | Mooninaut | it makes a difference! |
| 21:27.31 | Xinhuan | they don't krka |
| 21:27.35 | Lopeppeppy | Meep. Sorry, ScytheBlade1. *hugs* |
| 21:27.37 | krka | but more realistically O(size of key) |
| 21:27.40 | Xinhuan | go read up on how hashed tables are implemented |
| 21:27.56 | Xinhuan | the hash table component also takes up twice as much memory |
| 21:28.01 | krka | sure |
| 21:28.02 | Xinhuan | because it has to store both key and value |
| 21:28.05 | ZorbaTHut | krka, a lot of the time, a good balanced binary tree is actually better than a hash table |
| 21:28.11 | ZorbaTHut | it wouldn't surprise me if they're doing that |
| 21:28.12 | Xinhuan | but the indexed component only has to store the value, not the key |
| 21:28.16 | krka | "they"? |
| 21:28.18 | ScytheBlade1 | Lopeppeppy: just isn't fair to hit us like that, right after spring break. |
| 21:28.23 | ZorbaTHut | the Lua devs |
| 21:28.30 | krka | Xinhuan: i know. i actually wrote my own lua runtime |
| 21:28.35 | Zootfizzle | m35: One step further, if you look at the results of GetRegions() for a frame that you created with a backdrop, you can see the texture pieces! |
| 21:28.38 | krka | i know how lua works behind the scenes |
| 21:28.42 | Xinhuan | i can refer you to a history of lua pdf where they mention this |
| 21:28.42 | krka | lua does not use a binary tree |
| 21:28.47 | krka | i have read it |
| 21:28.48 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+v Esamynn] by ChanServ |
| 21:29.10 | Xinhuan | in any case, the math is such that you want to try to have your tables from 1-N |
| 21:29.27 | Xinhuan | so in this case, t[x*n-y] for a n*n table |
| 21:29.44 | krka | anywith, with x*N+y, and x>=0, y>=0, you'll stay in the non-negative range |
| 21:29.47 | Xinhuan | the index will be 0 to n*n-1 in this case |
| 21:29.47 | krka | i.e. possibly in the array part |
| 21:30.03 | krka | with x*N-y for x>=0, y>=0, you'll store stuff in the negative range |
| 21:30.08 | krka | which is always a hash lookup |
| 21:30.18 | m35 | Zootfizzle: ah ha! i'll have to explore these frames in game |
| 21:30.27 | Mooninaut | lua tables generally use x >= 1 y >= 1 |
| 21:30.28 | Xinhuan | i forgot to mention in my code, x and y cannot be 0, they are at least 1 ;p |
| 21:30.33 | *** join/#wowuidev Wimpsy` (n=Wimp_@78-70-121-17-no170.tbcn.telia.com) |
| 21:30.33 | Xinhuan | because lua tables start at 1 |
| 21:30.59 | Xinhuan | using x*n-y, the only non indexed number is t[0] |
| 21:31.18 | Xinhuan | also x==y |
| 21:31.25 | Xinhuan | in the context of our discussion |
| 21:31.29 | Xinhuan | because we're talking about weight tables |
| 21:31.31 | Nechckn | Should anyone be remotely interested, http://digg.com/software/Blizzard_targets_addon_developers_IP_rights |
| 21:31.34 | Xinhuan | which are symetrical |
| 21:32.25 | krka | hash tables have a worst case of O(n), but that's rare, and the average is O(1) which is much more common |
| 21:32.27 | m35 | what happens if a table has random int keys, say -2, 0, 3, and 4? would that be treated as a index table, or a hash table? |
| 21:32.41 | krka | it's silly to use hash tables with the assumption that they're O(n) in practice |
| 21:32.42 | Xinhuan | O() notation is always about the worst case ;p |
| 21:32.59 | Xinhuan | since its about the upper bound |
| 21:33.04 | krka | true |
| 21:33.48 | Xinhuan | m35 it would be a hashed table |
| 21:34.04 | m35 | oh poo :P |
| 21:34.08 | krka | m35: possibly both |
| 21:34.09 | Xinhuan | but this is dependant on how it is declared |
| 21:34.40 | Xinhuan | if you declared it like this t = {nil, nil, 3, 4, [0] = 0, [-2] = -2} |
| 21:34.52 | Xinhuan | then it would be half indexed and half hashed |
| 21:35.02 | NightHawkTheSane | this is neat.. Quietube, youtube without the suck: http://quietube.com/ |
| 21:35.12 | m35 | interesting O.o |
| 21:35.16 | Xinhuan | if you declared it t = {} t[3] = 3 t[4] = 4... etc |
| 21:35.21 | Xinhuan | it would be all hashed |
| 21:35.43 | Xinhuan | the array portion doubles in size as it is used |
| 21:35.45 | krka | hm, sure a bout that Xinhuan? that constructor only sets the initial values for array and hash part, the lua table is free to rehash it and resize it at any insert |
| 21:36.00 | Dagmar | Nechckn: Dude, that Digg link distorts the truth almost as much as the idiots posting to Cairenn's thread on the Macro and UI forum |
| 21:36.06 | Xinhuan | hmm, not 100% sure |
| 21:36.11 | Xinhuan | you're probably right |
| 21:36.28 | Nechckn | So... make a comment and digg it down. |
| 21:36.38 | Nechckn | I didn't say it was "right" |
| 21:36.45 | Dagmar | How does "no" strike you |
| 21:36.56 | Dagmar | I'm not having any more of my time sapped by trolls |
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| 21:37.10 | m35 | hmm. perhaps if i decalred a table t = { 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, etc. } then always referenced it as t[i+3], then it could stay indexed |
| 21:37.24 | Lopeppeppy | I like seeing where everything is being discussed, it's good for the spirit. Comment? Not from this dino, nope. |
| 21:37.33 | Nechckn | Sorry, next time I'll preface with "Not for Dagmar..." =) |
| 21:37.37 | cncfanatics | hai ppl |
| 21:37.41 | Xinhuan | its a bit difficult to tell whether its hashed or indexed though |
| 21:37.58 | Xinhuan | since lua does indeed rehash or reindex it on any table insertion |
| 21:38.03 | Xinhuan | if it chooses to |
| 21:38.20 | nevcairiel | You can be sure to have a hash table if you use non-integer keys =) |
| 21:38.26 | Xinhuan | on a seperate topic, do you think the lack of response from blizz about the UI policy is because it is a weekend? |
| 21:38.44 | m35 | interesting. silly unpredictable lua ;p good info though |
| 21:38.45 | Lunessa | The various threads have brought me many a /faceplam moment. |
| 21:38.48 | krka | i'm not even sure non-hash-part is that much faster |
| 21:38.50 | foxlit | m35: why would you want to? :) |
| 21:38.50 | Nechckn | I think it's that they are waiting to see what happens - and that, Xinhuan |
| 21:38.55 | krka | afaik, it's mostly used to conserve memory, not improve speed |
| 21:39.07 | Xinhuan | less memory is a sort of speed improvement ;p |
| 21:39.12 | Lopeppeppy | Lunessa -- but at least people are talking. |
| 21:39.14 | Lunessa | Xinhuan: Yes. Most of those folks are probably doing something non-work today. |
| 21:39.24 | krka | the code has to: check that it's a number, if so, check if it's an integer, if so, check if it's within array range |
| 21:39.36 | Lopeppeppy | Xinhuan, why would they comment? And I should sure hope they're all outside raking their lawns. Enough people to rake the muck. |
| 21:39.39 | krka | in fact, i suspect string lookups are faster than integer lookups |
| 21:39.44 | Xinhuan | such checks only take a few clock cycles |
| 21:39.50 | *** join/#wowuidev Esamynn (n=chatzill@d64-180-70-86.bchsia.telus.net) |
| 21:39.51 | m35 | foxit: just curious how i could squeeze a bit a speed out of tables i'm using. probably won't make much difference either way |
| 21:40.02 | Xinhuan | strings are interned though, so strings are really memory references (integers) |
| 21:40.39 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+v Esamynn] by ChanServ |
| 21:40.51 | nevcairiel | poor strings, can't even roam free |
| 21:40.59 | krka | lua> local t1 = os.clock() local t = {} for i = 1, 1e8 do local x = t["asdas"] end print(os.clock() - t1) |
| 21:41.03 | lua_bot | krka: 3.62 |
| 21:41.08 | krka | lua> local t1 = os.clock() local t = {} for i = 1, 1e8 do local x = t[1] end print(os.clock() - t1) |
| 21:41.13 | lua_bot | krka: 4.92 |
| 21:41.19 | krka | see, string lookups ftw! |
| 21:41.22 | Xinhuan | heh |
| 21:41.33 | Xinhuan | see if the string length matters? |
| 21:41.40 | krka | it doesn't |
| 21:41.40 | nevcairiel | wonder if it makes a difference if the key exists or not |
| 21:41.45 | *** join/#wowuidev ecstasia (n=ecs@unaffiliated/ecstasia) |
| 21:41.49 | Xinhuan | it probably does |
| 21:41.49 | krka | all lua strings have precalculated hash sums |
| 21:41.58 | nevcairiel | string length only affects the parsing |
| 21:42.00 | Xinhuan | lua checks for the existance of metatable.__index doesn't it? |
| 21:42.03 | Xinhuan | if it doesn't exist |
| 21:42.04 | nevcairiel | more chars to read, haha |
| 21:42.12 | krka | equals is by pointer, hashcode is precomputed |
| 21:42.14 | krka | so it's fast |
| 21:42.42 | Lunessa | 20 minutes to freedom. |
| 21:42.44 | krka | lua> local t1 = os.clock() local t = {} for i = 1, 1e8 do local x = t[1123123123] end print(os.clock() - t1) |
| 21:42.49 | lua_bot | krka: 4.89 |
| 21:43.11 | Xinhuan | lua> local t1 = os.clock() local t = {} for i = 1, 1e8 do local x = t[t] end print(os.clock() - t1) |
| 21:43.11 | krka | lua> local t1 = os.clock() local t = {hello="world"} for i = 1, 1e8 do local x = t["hello"] end print(os.clock() - t1) |
| 21:43.16 | lua_bot | Xinhuan: 4.5 |
| 21:43.20 | lua_bot | krka: 3.79 |
| 21:43.29 | krka | lua> local t1 = os.clock() local t = {"world"} for i = 1, 1e8 do local x = t[1] end print(os.clock() - t1) |
| 21:43.33 | lua_bot | krka: 3.78 |
| 21:43.40 | nevcairiel | curious |
| 21:43.41 | m35 | just 2c: maybe people would be happier with Blizzard dictating how people develop their addons if Blizz actually documented their...code...and provided some helper tools |
| 21:43.41 | krka | about the same speed if the key existed |
| 21:43.52 | Xinhuan | so we are both right |
| 21:43.55 | Odlaw | Hrm...How about an 'about' frame or something.. Name of addon, author, description, and paypal info. No request to donate. Think that would be acceptable? |
| 21:43.58 | Xinhuan | they are equally fast |
| 21:44.04 | Xinhuan | but not if the key doesn't exist |
| 21:44.31 | krka | the point is that using the array part is mostly useful for the memory conservation |
| 21:44.31 | Xinhuan | Odlaw: unclear - blizz has not clarified |
| 21:44.50 | Odlaw | Bout the only way to get around some stuff :( |
| 21:44.55 | foxlit | Odlaw: Rule two: "don't be annoying" |
| 21:45.06 | Odlaw | It wouldn't pop up like an ad |
| 21:45.11 | Odlaw | something that a user can click on |
| 21:45.11 | foxlit | Other than that, just disregard everything else. If someone wants you to do something, they'll find you. |
| 21:46.45 | Xinhuan | as far as i know only like 4 addons have obfuscated code, 2 solicit donations, and there's a handful of pay-to-use addons (carbonite and a number of "leveling guide addons" like zygor) |
| 21:47.11 | nevcairiel | don't forget the whole Bang!-series of addons |
| 21:47.38 | Xinhuan | its ok they are going down with a bang! |
| 21:47.41 | Xinhuan | see what i did there |
| 21:47.44 | nevcairiel | lol |
| 21:47.46 | Slakah | clever |
| 21:47.57 | Lopeppeppy | *rolls her eyes* |
| 21:48.00 | Hjalte | I don't understand the Bang! addons. Could they do anything you couldnt get somewhere else? |
| 21:48.15 | nevcairiel | not really |
| 21:48.51 | Lopeppeppy | Why pay for a cow when milk is offered without charge elsewhere? |
| 21:49.16 | Xinhuan | because a cow has more "uptime gauranteed" |
| 21:49.18 | Lunessa | They had Bang in the name! But they hand nothing to do with sex. I was so disappointed. |
| 21:49.48 | foxlit | Lunessa: the secret is, they EXPLODE WHEN YOU'RE NOT LOOKING |
| 21:49.54 | Xinhuan | i hope you liked my "uptime" reply ;p |
| 21:50.04 | Lopeppeppy | We have... explosions! |
| 21:50.28 | Lunessa | foxlit: Woo! Uptime that explodes when you're not looking! It is sex afterall! |
| 21:51.19 | ZorbaTHut | lope, sometimes it's worth paying for a mutant cybercow that milks itself, does your laundry, and fights off aliens |
| 21:51.26 | ZorbaTHut | even if you could do all of those things on your own |
| 21:51.41 | Xinhuan | ZorbaTHut, glider could :P |
| 21:51.57 | Xinhuan | see what i did there again |
| 21:51.59 | Xinhuan | hehe |
| 21:52.18 | Lunessa | ZorbaTHut: Cows that milk themselves? I bet there's porn for that. While they fight aliens. |
| 21:53.47 | Lopeppeppy | Farmer Brown, he's on crack. |
| 21:55.03 | *** join/#wowuidev Funkeh` (n=funk@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/Ace3/BigWigs/funkeh) |
| 21:55.21 | Fisker- | i'm on a roll motherfuckers |
| 21:55.29 | Lopeppeppy | Fisker, really |
| 21:55.33 | Fisker- | yeah! |
| 21:55.49 | Fisker- | I'm outtrolling this troll |
| 21:55.51 | Castigo | Lunessa, nevcairiel, Lopeppeppy: wws IGNORES warlock's pet |
| 21:56.02 | Fisker- | Trying to give advice on Left 4 Dead console |
| 21:56.05 | Fisker- | Failing |
| 21:56.12 | Fisker- | Failing to counter my arguments |
| 21:56.25 | Dagmar | You fail. |
| 21:56.31 | Fisker- | "DURR HURR L4D DELETES YOUR SETTINGS" |
| 21:56.44 | nevcairiel | Castigo: then how did that guys Imp end up on the wws page? http://wowwebstats.com/4nhrvzfeumeg5?a=x10dedaa&s=65160-99429 |
| 21:56.45 | Dagmar | The troll's goal isn't generally to make a more compelling point, but to make you waste your time refuting their asshattery |
| 21:57.08 | Fisker- | i'm doing both Dagmar |
| 21:57.12 | Fisker- | i'm just that great |
| 21:57.16 | Dagmar | So you're extra dim |
| 21:57.18 | Fisker- | trolling in a srs thread |
| 21:57.23 | Fisker- | while being srs |
| 21:58.07 | NeoTron | WWS randomly misses pets |
| 21:58.10 | NeoTron | not always but often |
| 21:58.13 | NeoTron | especially DK pets |
| 21:58.30 | nevcairiel | wws seems to always miss the doomguard |
| 21:58.36 | nevcairiel | our locks get it out on patchwerk |
| 21:58.39 | Fisker- | what the shit |
| 21:58.45 | NeoTron | WWS is just bad |
| 21:58.46 | nevcairiel | but it picks up on imps |
| 21:58.49 | Fisker- | You could join GTA multiplayer games with modded files |
| 21:58.52 | Fisker- | WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY |
| 21:58.53 | NeoTron | it's old and useless and I stopped paying for it since, well it sucks |
| 21:58.54 | Castigo | nevcairiel nope |
| 21:58.56 | nevcairiel | StasisCL tracks doomguards fine though |
| 21:58.57 | Castigo | not on my log |
| 21:59.08 | NeoTron | Stasis also misses pets at times |
| 21:59.14 | Castigo | nevcariel DOomguards are actually the EASIER |
| 21:59.17 | NeoTron | only one I've seen so far that has not is WMO |
| 21:59.19 | Castigo | to pick since they trigger a spell_summon |
| 21:59.30 | nevcairiel | Castgo: stasiscl is open source, its perl, but still open source, go read it =P |
| 21:59.40 | Castigo | nevcairiel i ain't got a clue about perl m8 |
| 22:00.02 | nevcairiel | now thats your problem entirely :) |
| 22:00.06 | Castigo | kudos if u can do it for metho :P *and no it's not lazyness i seriously don't understand a jackshit about perl* |
| 22:00.10 | Castigo | i already tried to read statiscl |
| 22:00.18 | nevcairiel | imho, perl should be considered obfuscation |
| 22:00.23 | Castigo | loool |
| 22:00.53 | Castigo | ah nevcairiel fyi i even disassembled wmo an wws clients to figure out |
| 22:00.57 | Castigo | :P |
| 22:01.00 | Lunessa | perl = the strangest shortcut-ridden, jargon-laced languge I ever learned. |
| 22:01.05 | mikma | i also heard wws not counting lifeblooms |
| 22:01.17 | mikma | making lists look pretty bad for druids |
| 22:01.25 | nevcairiel | WWS does the actual parsing on the server, it just tokenizes the strings in the client |
| 22:01.26 | Lunessa | And on that note... freedom! |
| 22:01.30 | bleeter | nevcairiel: imo anything not perl should be considered obsfucation :P |
| 22:02.03 | *** join/#wowuidev malikeye (n=malikeye@cpe-071-070-237-230.nc.res.rr.com) |
| 22:02.46 | Castigo | mikma wmo differs even in total dmg done from wws actually |
| 22:02.54 | Castigo | same log, 2 different results dmgwise |
| 22:03.18 | bleeter | Add-ons may not be used to advertise any goods or services." << so my /trade addon's banned now, eh? :( |
| 22:04.07 | mikma | castigo: recount tells perfect stats, and after stats have been uploaded to wws, druids are last on healing if they use lifebloom |
| 22:04.19 | mikma | seen that happening 5+ times now |
| 22:05.13 | nevcairiel | I haven't really seen that yet |
| 22:05.44 | mikma | i have with my wifes guild |
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| 22:06.16 | Xinhuan | its funny how WWS went from being trusted #1 to being so crappy now |
| 22:06.26 | Xinhuan | particularly since there isn't much combat log changes |
| 22:06.27 | Xinhuan | since 2.4 |
| 22:06.57 | nevcairiel | because they fail |
| 22:07.10 | nevcairiel | you noticed how they even closed their forums because people flamed them all the time? |
| 22:07.27 | NightHawkTheSane | Xinhuan: closing their source didn't help |
| 22:07.35 | mikma | nevcairiel: my wife is always nr.1 in heals according to Recount + other addons. after people have uploaded the wws stats she's like 5th on the list, doing 50% less than "nr.1" according to wws |
| 22:08.00 | Castigo | NightHawkTheSane where they ever opensource? :) and in general, sell a product that is open source is somehow difficult |
| 22:08.03 | Castigo | i suppose :) |
| 22:08.31 | Castigo | mikma that sounds VERY strange, honestly |
| 22:08.31 | Xinhuan | Castigo, well, they can in this case |
| 22:08.33 | NightHawkTheSane | there was a point when they were, yeah. but, i gather the guy wanted to monetize it by forcing people to use his hosting, and pay for it. |
| 22:08.42 | Xinhuan | because the parser can be open source |
| 22:08.48 | Xinhuan | what people are paying for is the hosting |
| 22:08.51 | Xinhuan | of their wws reports |
| 22:08.56 | NeoTron | which is fine if he actually did his job |
| 22:09.06 | Castigo | Xinhuan would u pay something u can host on ur website instead? |
| 22:09.26 | Castigo | (beside that i don't know anyone that ever paid wws) |
| 22:09.27 | mikma | castigo: it is. reason told was "wws doesnt count the ticks of lifebloom, it counts only the last tick" |
| 22:09.30 | Xinhuan | if you offered stuff that only his website did |
| 22:09.36 | NeoTron | I've had paid wws for years |
| 22:09.49 | nevcairiel | mikma: you have to be pretty fail to not make it count the tics |
| 22:09.53 | NeoTron | I'm guessing many high end raiding guilds have |
| 22:10.08 | Xinhuan | well question is, why would WWS stop working on lifebloom ticks |
| 22:10.13 | Xinhuan | if it worked during sunwell era |
| 22:10.20 | mikma | nevcairiel: yeah imho the dude using the wws fails in something |
| 22:10.25 | Xinhuan | why would it stop working now |
| 22:10.25 | NeoTron | why did it stop being able to propery attribute pets? |
| 22:10.34 | NeoTron | I don't recall issues with pets in SWP |
| 22:10.41 | mikma | the 2 other dudes in the guild uploading the wws stats always got correct stats |
| 22:10.50 | mikma | but the 1 dude has fucked up stats |
| 22:11.04 | Lopeppeppy | "crazy clock" is what wws always blames for messed up stats |
| 22:11.18 | bleeter | Cairenn|afk: you gunna remove all the /trade addons from wowi? |
| 22:11.20 | Dagmar | They have a problem with the idea that time is contiguous? |
| 22:11.26 | Xinhuan | only reason i can think of is that the tokenizer app is bugged |
| 22:11.29 | Xinhuan | not the server side parser |
| 22:12.13 | mikma | nevcairiel / castigo : http://wowwebstats.com/4q1ew55oan5w1?m |
| 22:12.28 | Castigo | tho i'm quite pissed :) my parser is 200k dmg behind the same log on wws |
| 22:12.32 | Castigo | and i quite can't figure out why |
| 22:12.46 | mikma | according to Recount, Jossu was nr.1, Thifyx was nr.2 and Nerpa was nr.3 |
| 22:12.47 | Xinhuan | did you miss out stuff like thorns |
| 22:12.52 | Xinhuan | or ret aura |
| 22:13.07 | Xinhuan | those aren't on damage events, but are on a different event |
| 22:13.41 | NeoTron | speaking of tokenizer, I think pet issue was client side |
| 22:13.51 | NeoTron | like if you turn on the error log it throws exceptions |
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| 22:15.06 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o Seerah] by ChanServ |
| 22:15.16 | nevcairiel | mikma: your log seems to be broken somehow .. according to that, they only come to 4 tics per lifebloom final cast, on that 10man log i have, i have about 10 tics per cast, which makes more sense |
| 22:15.22 | Castigo | NeoTron well disassmbled version of the parser is like class A, public void A() { bla bla } public void B() { bla bla} u read it 'cause i gave up after 2 "obivious" classes |
| 22:15.57 | Castigo | and mikma/nevcariel might aswell be that recount was synched in theory |
| 22:16.11 | Castigo | or that the combat log range was "low" |
| 22:16.24 | Castigo | actually what nevcariel just said makes me think of low range combat log |
| 22:16.25 | mikma | nevcairiel: yeah, exactly |
| 22:16.33 | Castigo | where somone that has been hotted goes out of range hence not recorded ticks |
| 22:16.38 | nevcairiel | Castigo: you cant control the combatlog range anymore |
| 22:16.59 | Castigo | then it doesn't makes sense at all |
| 22:17.31 | Castigo | if spell_periodic_healing event is written down the log, wws either reads none of them all |
| 22:17.34 | mikma | so how does that wws work actually? |
| 22:17.37 | Castigo | "half" doesn't makes sense |
| 22:19.19 | Castigo | and btw |
| 22:19.24 | Castigo | i just found an "half" bug on wws |
| 22:19.35 | Castigo | raid damage out is not the sum of the damage out columns |
| 22:19.55 | mikma | the idiot who uploaded the stats said my wife needs to record the stats herself then |
| 22:21.30 | mikma | lol what |
| 22:21.51 | mikma | the other healer that doesnt use lifebloom that much has 10milj healed |
| 22:22.28 | mikma | my wife has 8.7mil and she uses like only lifebloom and tops the meters everytime |
| 22:22.50 | Lopeppeppy | damage meter stats as a measure of performance = fail. |
| 22:23.02 | Lopeppeppy | Fail, fail, fail. They're so flawed it's hysterical any time someone talks about them. |
| 22:23.06 | nevcairiel | depends what you measure |
| 22:23.08 | Castigo | Lopeppeppy not entirely |
| 22:23.14 | Castigo | depends what and how u measure it |
| 22:23.21 | Castigo | i fairly often use recount to find the "mistakes" |
| 22:23.24 | Castigo | of my guildies |
| 22:23.30 | Castigo | even just seeing their spell rotation |
| 22:23.33 | Lopeppeppy | The conversation in this channel for the last ... 2 hours? Hysterical. :) |
| 22:24.01 | nevcairiel | we were only discussing some apparent bug in the wws code :) |
| 22:24.03 | Lopeppeppy | I admit that over time it has the potential to point out spell rotation issues, who is and is not cleansing on a routine basis, etc. But adding up numbers for one fight? Pricelessly hysterical. |
| 22:24.23 | Castigo | Lopeppeppy it's not hysterical :) atleast i demostrated that wws fails at associating pets, so if wws/wmo fails at that, so can fail my application ^^ |
| 22:24.48 | nevcairiel | Obviously you can't just go by raw numbers, but they do provide some basis for more thoughts |
| 22:25.02 | NightHawkTheSane | Lopeppeppy: honestly, writing any tool off completely is just as "hysterical" as taking them as bible. |
| 22:25.05 | nevcairiel | Especially for healing performance its really hard to use the numbers in a damage meter |
| 22:25.39 | *** join/#wowuidev ecs (n=ecs@unaffiliated/ecstasia) |
| 22:25.41 | nevcairiel | But you can base some assumptions on the details (who was healed by what spells) instead of taking the raw "total healing" chart |
| 22:25.43 | Aelobin | is there a way to get the achievement ID of the selected achievement? |
| 22:25.47 | Lopeppeppy | exactly, nevcar. |
| 22:25.55 | Lopeppeppy | Tab complete failed there, sorry. |
| 22:25.55 | Castigo | healing meters between players that play together for a long time |
| 22:26.00 | Castigo | is more or less "luck" based |
| 22:26.05 | Castigo | who gets the heal there first win |
| 22:26.09 | Lopeppeppy | Yup. |
| 22:26.14 | Castigo | healingmeter "as meter" is nonsense |
| 22:26.30 | Castigo | tho thru recount healing meter i can see if a pala is spamming fol |
| 22:26.41 | Lopeppeppy | It's not like DPS, where there's an infinite amount of DPS that can be done on any given raid. There is a limited amount of healing that can be done on any raid, and someone with less lag/latency gets more of the pie. |
| 22:26.42 | Castigo | and /w him to welcome wotlk |
| 22:26.45 | NeoTron | Lopeppeppy: we uses WWS and/or WMO/SWS to clearly identify and point out why one of our boomkins just fail at boomkining |
| 22:26.47 | nevcairiel | I usually don't even look at dmg meters in game |
| 22:26.51 | NeoTron | and doesn't, in fact, just have bad luck |
| 22:27.17 | NeoTron | and yes "topping the meters" for healer evaluation isn't valid |
| 22:27.35 | nevcairiel | Occasionally afterwards at parses to look over the raid performance, but i know to take all meters with a grain of salt |
| 22:27.37 | NeoTron | we've had priests that were always on top in 25 mans and 10 mans yet couldn't heal worth shit even in karazhan |
| 22:27.38 | nevcairiel | some people don't, sadly |
| 22:27.51 | NightHawkTheSane | NeoTron: well, they're hugely skewed by role, too |
| 22:27.58 | NightHawkTheSane | regardless of actual skill |
| 22:28.07 | NeoTron | nevcairiel: when a better geared boomkin is 3rd to last DPS and the new trial is 4th highest for "all boss fights" you know something is wrong |
| 22:28.10 | Castigo | on a side note if u got a bit of brain |
| 22:28.13 | Castigo | and not scared of burning mana |
| 22:28.18 | Castigo | topping ANY meter is quite easy |
| 22:28.25 | Castigo | even with less gear than the rest |
| 22:28.54 | NightHawkTheSane | NeoTron: alternately, you know you just found that better gear'd boomkin's replacement. ;) |
| 22:29.05 | NeoTron | we did in fact yes |
| 22:29.15 | NeoTron | the other one quit soon after "the talk" |
| 22:29.31 | NeoTron | out new boomkin consistently (well twice) tops dps on Malygos |
| 22:30.03 | Castigo | well.. then the new one gets gear and goes, and u are boomkin less and u are like "oh fuck if i kept" |
| 22:30.10 | nevcairiel | Our boomkin is a bit weird, on some fights she can be way up there, but sometimes its a bit low .. its on the bottom of the other DPS, but really not that much low .. our field is really leveled, mayba a difference of a few hundred DPS from top to bottom |
| 22:30.15 | nevcairiel | we'll see what 3.1 brings |
| 22:30.27 | NeoTron | and our new enhance shammy trial and shadow priest trial were both in the 2nd guild kill of 10 man sarth 3d (ever) and 6m malygos |
| 22:30.31 | NeoTron | so got some good recruits |
| 22:30.58 | nevcairiel | We did sarth10+3 with a warlock/voidwalker tank |
| 22:31.00 | nevcairiel | that was so awesome |
| 22:31.01 | NeoTron | and the SP topped DPS on Sarth |
| 22:31.03 | Hjalte | NeoTron: It's not that hard to top most fights as a Moonkin if your gear is somewhat good. |
| 22:31.08 | NeoTron | heh so are both our kills |
| 22:31.20 | Castigo | nev we still struggle to do 3D, we managed this reset to stayalive in 25 whole time |
| 22:31.26 | Castigo | and that already was an epic fight :) |
| 22:31.33 | NeoTron | Hjalte: when you're used to your boomkin being dead last, maybe behind one or two of the shadow priests.. |
| 22:31.38 | Castigo | now our feraltank dies on breath IF 2 drakes are up |
| 22:31.41 | Castigo | and we splat constantly :) |
| 22:31.57 | nevcairiel | Get a priest or pally for cooldowns? :) |
| 22:32.03 | NeoTron | I admit the eclipse mechanic is rather challenging compared to one button spam |
| 22:32.09 | nevcairiel | indeed |
| 22:32.17 | Castigo | nev *cough* i am pally *cough* |
| 22:32.22 | NeoTron | but the old one had like a 5-15 second delay after the 30s cooldown was up before the first wrath hit |
| 22:32.27 | nevcairiel | then hand of protection more! |
| 22:32.51 | nevcairiel | Maybe i should've stocked up on moonkin gear instead of feral |
| 22:32.54 | nevcairiel | just to get a feeling for it |
| 22:32.55 | Castigo | but i still fail, i am too busy with healing other ppl/dodging lava walls zones, stay close to the pala tank et... to have sarth on target or even to be always in range with the tank |
| 22:33.00 | NeoTron | the new SP also does almost 1000 more DPS (on most fights other than patchwerk) than our old ones |
| 22:33.06 | Hjalte | NeoTron: Eclipse is easy, your other moonkin must have been quite bad :) |
| 22:33.21 | NeoTron | Hjalte: correct |
| 22:33.31 | nevcairiel | You just need a big alarm sound that rells you to move your finger to the left/right :D |
| 22:33.35 | Castigo | nevcairiel i don't know about u, but our druids have full 7.5 3 sets more or less (maybe missing some helms) |
| 22:33.58 | nevcairiel | We have a shitton of mages and DKs |
| 22:34.40 | nevcairiel | i'm 3/5 on my feral set, missing helm and gloves |
| 22:34.56 | *** join/#wowuidev ecstasia (n=ecs@unaffiliated/ecstasia) |
| 22:35.47 | nevcairiel | oh wait, 2/5 on feral only, i got that leather chest from malygos before the set, don't need it anymore =) |
| 22:36.06 | NeoTron | http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/2276380#damageout is pretty telling |
| 22:36.13 | NeoTron | guess who's the new one and who's the old one :P |
| 22:36.15 | *** join/#wowuidev ecs (n=ecs@unaffiliated/ecstasia) |
| 22:37.04 | Castigo | nev there are no addons that "alarm" about void zones since it gives no buffs/debuffs |
| 22:37.05 | Castigo | *sigh* |
| 22:38.53 | mikma | well it gives you damage... but you kno.. |
| 22:39.13 | Castigo | lol once it gives u damage |
| 22:39.16 | Castigo | either way u are dead |
| 22:39.46 | Castigo | tbh bliz should add a buff/debuff to void zones really |
| 22:39.56 | Castigo | in the middle of 15-6 melee dpsers the drake and the adds |
| 22:40.04 | Castigo | it's HONESTLY HARD to see the void zones |
| 22:40.10 | NeoTron | red ones are hard for me to see |
| 22:40.14 | NeoTron | blue ones easy |
| 22:40.15 | mikma | castigo: yeah, bingo =) |
| 22:40.23 | NeoTron | so I still have issues on KT as melee |
| 22:40.33 | mikma | when you get the damage, you are pretty much dead =) |
| 22:41.07 | Castigo | NeoTron u mean u color blind or just the "color" is troublesome? |
| 22:41.17 | mikma | only time i have died in fissure while killing KT was when i was tanking it... |
| 22:41.28 | mikma | i moved out, yet still got exploded |
| 22:41.45 | Castigo | i never died on KT but died countlessy times on sarth with 3 drakes |
| 22:41.46 | mikma | apparently i didn't move enough |
| 22:42.01 | bleeter | kd3: >24hrs later, yup looks like we got totally ripped off for some pixels :( |
| 22:42.05 | bleeter | kd3: ;) |
| 22:42.17 | mikma | bleeter: wut? |
| 22:42.31 | NeoTron | Castigo: well I am color blind but I think it's mostl the fact that the red is darker in general |
| 22:42.40 | Castigo | i might be a failure player, sometimes i was OUT and still got pwned, some other times i was just healing too much to even notice it, some other times it's just iMPOSSIBLE to see them with all the things going around |
| 22:42.50 | bleeter | mikma: in beta, converting wow account to bnet got the player a cosmetic ingame pet... nothing in live tho ... kd3 and I had a little moan the other day :) |
| 22:42.53 | NeoTron | and maybe closer to player effects |
| 22:43.06 | NeoTron | where there really aren't any blue effects from what I know |
| 22:43.22 | *** join/#wowuidev Shirik|Berry (n=Shirik|B@conspiracy/developer/Shirik) |
| 22:43.22 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o Shirik|Berry] by ChanServ |
| 22:43.25 | NeoTron | bleeter: I noted that as well |
| 22:43.30 | mikma | bleeter: aww =) should be a thanks to all who do it before they are forced! |
| 22:43.31 | NeoTron | bleeter: I want my penguin! |
| 22:43.41 | bleeter | I'd rather a walrus pet |
| 22:43.46 | NeoTron | that works too |
| 22:43.48 | bleeter | penguins can be gained from rep |
| 22:43.57 | NeoTron | could be a DIFFERENt penguin |
| 22:44.00 | bleeter | it'd rather something fat and ugly following me |
| 22:44.08 | bleeter | to remind me that thing really could be worse IRL for me :D |
| 22:44.10 | NeoTron | a pet gorloc woukd work too |
| 22:44.21 | foxlit | Penguins need to go "Dood!" |
| 22:44.23 | Castigo | order a tlpd for me please, i wasted like 2 weeks looking for it 8hr+ a day |
| 22:44.34 | bleeter | penguins need to go into the bbq ssssshhh |
| 22:45.01 | bleeter | only problem with penguins... fishy tasting chicken |
| 22:45.12 | bleeter | or chicken tasting fish.. I guess |
| 22:45.20 | Castigo | fishy tasting? u mean u have tried to eat one? |
| 22:45.26 | bleeter | haven't you? |
| 22:45.32 | Castigo | >< |
| 22:45.40 | Castigo | no, i want to live |
| 22:45.47 | mikma | uh! |
| 22:45.48 | bleeter | KILLAH PENGQINZ! |
| 22:45.53 | bleeter | *PENGWINZ |
| 22:45.54 | mikma | mythbusters pet! gief! |
| 22:46.09 | mikma | wlarus! walrus! walrus! |
| 22:46.14 | Castigo | mikma tlpd |
| 22:46.25 | mikma | ~tlpd |
| 22:46.42 | Castigo | time-lost proto drake |
| 22:47.19 | mikma | ok, might wanna use the long name with that sort of unknown stuff, really =) |
| 22:47.44 | bleeter | i thought it was some forum acronym |
| 22:47.48 | bleeter | 'too long, pissed, deleted' |
| 22:47.54 | Castigo | LOOOL |
| 22:47.56 | *** join/#wowuidev Robsato (i=5065af6a@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-8b29d50a6df1e51c) |
| 22:48.19 | Castigo | no, it's just a mob that "wonder" in stormpeaks |
| 22:48.23 | Castigo | more or less "randomly" |
| 22:48.43 | bleeter | kd3: walrus bnet pet Suggested |
| 22:49.01 | mikma | bleeter: haha |
| 22:50.05 | Castigo | bleeter can u please suggest a tlpd for me too? i think that after like 40 hours + of "hunting" i kinda deserve it :P |
| 22:50.15 | Castigo | not to mention the stunning looking person i am |
| 22:50.21 | mikma | bleeter: on use: release your inner jamie hyneman |
| 22:50.29 | bleeter | Castigo: only if you PCT to one of my realms and give me 2^31 copper |
| 22:51.06 | bleeter | mikma: there's clearly some mythbuster walrus link I'm not awake enough to recall ;) |
| 22:51.08 | mikma | bleeter: engineering increased by 15 |
| 22:51.39 | bleeter | ohhh 'looks like ah' |
| 22:52.10 | Castigo | bleeter sorry only got 50k golds in bank |
| 22:52.14 | mikma | bleeter: http://totallylookslike.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/jamie-hyneman2.jpg |
| 22:52.15 | Castigo | not 247k |
| 22:52.22 | Castigo | yet atleast :P |
| 22:53.14 | mikma | bleeter: http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d100/Vegasmob/MySpace/myth.jpg |
| 22:54.05 | *** join/#wowuidev Funkeh` (n=funk@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/Ace3/BigWigs/funkeh) |
| 22:55.41 | Castigo | LOL i fed my application a real combat log (200mb one) and *ehm* crashed leaving 500mb of ram "gone" |
| 22:55.53 | bleeter | mikma: I went with "More Boom, More Flame, More Carnage." On use: Exploding Walrus |
| 22:56.20 | bleeter | and commented 'or other more obvious mythbuster gags' |
| 22:56.21 | Castigo | and gg... 15min for xp to figure out now that that area is garbage |
| 22:56.26 | mikma | bleeter: engineering increased by 15 =D |
| 22:56.36 | mikma | hyneman walrus -minipet ftw! |
| 22:56.42 | bleeter | that'd make gnomes way too OP |
| 22:56.55 | mikma | but they already are! |
| 22:56.55 | bleeter | did you see that engi drangonlings again scale with skill? |
| 22:57.07 | bleeter | lvl 86 dragonling ftw! |
| 22:57.12 | mikma | wat? |
| 22:57.19 | mikma | 3.1 or live? |
| 22:57.38 | bleeter | good friend is reporting it to me on live |
| 22:57.59 | bleeter | I think it might be something to do with my suspicions that we've currently got some bastardised 2.x game client |
| 22:58.09 | mikma | i'm dreaming of leveling engineering warlock gnome |
| 22:58.13 | bleeter | and/or server.. you know how 'old bugs' resurface in random builds from time to time |
| 22:58.53 | mikma | bleeter: omg private servers! |
| 22:58.58 | bleeter | i gave up my gnome engi coz the last 15 points atm are balls |
| 22:59.35 | Castigo | last 15 points are EASY |
| 22:59.39 | mikma | lol thats priceless chicago blackhawks vs florida panthers in Finland, Helsinki, Hartwall Arena |
| 22:59.41 | Castigo | it's like 400 to 420 that is ball |
| 23:00.01 | bleeter | Castigo: actually.. you might be right there. I'm thinking wrong profession. |
| 23:00.18 | bleeter | damn levelling multiple toons, get confused as to which profession sucks for what reason |
| 23:00.31 | Castigo | last 15-20 points of engineering is all gnomish army knife = 15 saronite bars iirc |
| 23:00.48 | Castigo | 400-420 i belive it's all AP/Stamina trinkets... |
| 23:00.51 | bleeter | and to the MvP who was trying to tell me Blizz plays WoW as noobs.. I present.. the continual re-occurence of OP enchants in lowbie BGs. |
| 23:00.56 | mikma | gnomish army knife <3 |
| 23:00.59 | Castigo | thatis like 150g a piece or so and u vendor it |
| 23:01.18 | Castigo | on a side note the gnomish army knife has a "bug" that is not known |
| 23:01.44 | Castigo | i don't know WHY but u don't need any wood to create a campfire if u have the gnomish knife as flint and tinder |
| 23:01.58 | Hjalte | Castigo: That goes for all camp fires now. |
| 23:02.09 | mikma | yeah |
| 23:02.12 | Castigo | if anyone here works/has contact with blizz might want to report that |
| 23:02.19 | mikma | some patch ago they removed the wood |
| 23:02.24 | Castigo | atm i enjoy my fires |
| 23:02.27 | *** join/#wowuidev AbsolutRayne (n=chatzill@XPLR-MCI-74-127-239-30.barrettxplore.com) |
| 23:02.27 | bleeter | army knife is stupidly OP |
| 23:02.32 | Hjalte | They removed the wood requirement in 3.0.9(8?) |
| 23:02.40 | Castigo | mikma nope, if u have normal flint ant tinder |
| 23:02.41 | Castigo | *and |
| 23:02.48 | Castigo | still requires it |
| 23:02.53 | Castigo | or atleast the tooltip says so |
| 23:02.56 | mikma | castigo: they removed the reagent requirement |
| 23:02.58 | nevcairiel | Hjalte: and in 3.1 you don't even need the flint for the fire anymore |
| 23:03.07 | mikma | trust me, its in patch notes |
| 23:03.24 | Castigo | then tooltip is to be updated |
| 23:03.33 | bleeter | and error message |
| 23:03.36 | mikma | that may be so yes |
| 23:04.56 | *** join/#wowuidev Kraft (n=kraftman@cpc3-cwma2-0-0-cust836.swan.cable.ntl.com) |
| 23:05.51 | Castigo | tlpd instead works as intended. what intended means to players are not given to know |
| 23:06.12 | Castigo | or somone that knows don't bother writing it on wowhead :P |
| 23:06.40 | bleeter | what? |
| 23:06.56 | Castigo | the rare proto drake |
| 23:07.22 | mikma | castigo: dude, like i sayd |
| 23:07.29 | mikma | said* ... use the long name instead of that |
| 23:07.40 | bleeter | i mean, I understood your first sentence. the second sentence, I'm not quite sure that was english |
| 23:07.40 | mikma | no-one understands if you talk like that :D |
| 23:08.21 | Castigo | bleeter i meant that if somone knows the spawnrule, he/she doesn't bother to write it on wowhead |
| 23:08.44 | Castigo | and any GM have the order to keep their mouth shut about it |
| 23:08.57 | Castigo | = u randomly get it but can't camp it |
| 23:09.50 | Castigo | and bleeter i'm willing to pay a PCT and 20k golds for that :P |
| 23:10.02 | ZorbaTHut | I'm pretty sure the spawn rule for the TLPD, like for every other creature in the game, is "randomly, it spawns at one of a set of locations" |
| 23:10.13 | ZorbaTHut | it's just a much lower random chance than any other monster |
| 23:10.28 | Lopeppeppy | Random spawn is random! |
| 23:10.43 | Castigo | ZorbaTHut i'm fairly sure it's purely random instead |
| 23:11.04 | Castigo | but i'm quite confident instead the ramdomly is ruled by something |
| 23:11.20 | Lopeppeppy | Random is random. *gentle shrug* |
| 23:11.39 | Castigo | like dunno, once somone kills sarth+3D has chance to spawn |
| 23:11.41 | Castigo | or stuff like that |
| 23:11.43 | ZorbaTHut | castigo is a casino owner's dream |
| 23:11.50 | ZorbaTHut | haha, it can't be that |
| 23:11.54 | ZorbaTHut | there's people on my server with TLPDs |
| 23:11.57 | Castigo | i know it's not THAT |
| 23:11.59 | ZorbaTHut | therefore, it's not related to sarth+3 :D |
| 23:12.14 | Castigo | was an "example" |
| 23:12.23 | Castigo | uh? none on ur server done sarth+3D? |
| 23:12.42 | ZorbaTHut | pretty much, yeah. |
| 23:12.50 | ZorbaTHut | I think actually horde's started managing it regularly lately. |
| 23:12.58 | Castigo | oh boy, wtb a realm like that |
| 23:13.04 | Castigo | on my realm 34 guilds done it already |
| 23:13.31 | ZorbaTHut | come to Shattered Halls |
| 23:13.45 | ZorbaTHut | we've got *maybe* five guilds who have done it - one alliance, and they haven't managed 10-man |
| 23:14.28 | ZorbaTHut | (note: don't come to Shattered Halls, trust me on this) |
| 23:14.33 | Castigo | i don't think there are Horde guilds on my realm actually |
| 23:14.54 | NeoTron | Castigo: so a realm like that might be pretty small and full of bad |
| 23:15.03 | NeoTron | Castigo: do you really want to be on a fail server? :P |
| 23:15.26 | Castigo | i don't think i would change my realm |
| 23:15.29 | Castigo | for all the golds in wow |
| 23:15.39 | *** join/#wowuidev Etanol (n=gamle-go@hus134a.bobbnet.com) |
| 23:15.55 | NeoTron | If I knew I could get all my guild to move I might go to Hyjal |
| 23:16.04 | Etanol | does aceserializer work for arrays? |
| 23:16.05 | NeoTron | only because I have like 7 ms latency to Hyjal :P |
| 23:16.09 | NeoTron | Etanol: yes |
| 23:16.14 | Etanol | awesome |
| 23:16.27 | NeoTron | I have 45ms or so to my current server |
| 23:16.56 | Castigo | 40ms... i used to have it on Kilrogg :) |
| 23:16.57 | Etanol | can you copy a multidimensional table by going like: "tablecopy = table" ? |
| 23:17.06 | Castigo | NEVER gon under 150ms on silvermoon |
| 23:17.16 | NeoTron | Funny. I'm on Kilrogg now. |
| 23:17.18 | nevcairiel | Etanol: no, that only creates a reference, you need to use a deep-copy script |
| 23:17.30 | Castigo | Neotron EU or US? |
| 23:17.33 | NeoTron | US |
| 23:17.46 | Castigo | i was talking about eu tho :P |
| 23:17.50 | Etanol | how does a deep copy work then? |
| 23:18.26 | nevcairiel | Etanol: http://lua-users.org/wiki/CopyTable |
| 23:18.30 | nevcairiel | sample implementation |
| 23:18.36 | nevcairiel | even does recursive tabel checking |
| 23:18.51 | Etanol | thanks |
| 23:20.10 | Etanol | does aceserialize work for "multidimensional" arrays? like "table = {table = {[1] = 1, [2] = 2}} ? |
| 23:20.18 | *** join/#wowuidev Aznamir (n=aznamir@ool-43544a0d.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 23:20.25 | nevcairiel | AceSerializer can send any type of table |
| 23:20.33 | Etanol | awesome :) |
| 23:20.49 | nevcairiel | in fact, any data structure that can be properly serialized, that means, everything except userdata and functions |
| 23:20.52 | NeoTron | I use it in MagicMarker to send some rather large chunks of data |
| 23:21.15 | Dezzimal | so anyone happen to have a copy of outfitter 4.5b2 ? |
| 23:21.37 | Castigo | guys brb |
| 23:21.38 | Castigo | rebooting |
| 23:24.03 | Thunder_Child | amusing that outfiter closed down since they are puting some of the same functionality in the next patch |
| 23:24.55 | foxlit | nevcairiel: really any table? :) |
| 23:25.16 | Dezzimal | Thunder_Child: the functionality of the built in gearswapper is nowhere near as polished as outfitter is |
| 23:25.17 | nevcairiel | I bet you can construct some weird case that won't work, but your free to try |
| 23:25.33 | Thunder_Child | Dezzimal, notice i said 'some' |
| 23:25.38 | foxlit | Single table being used as both value and key? |
| 23:25.48 | Dezzimal | I'm kind of disappointed that the author of outfitter yanked all public versions of it instead of just saying that he'd no longer develop it |
| 23:25.55 | foxlit | t={} a ={[t]=t}, for example |
| 23:26.06 | Dezzimal | so now to get the latest version of it I have to go trolling around IRC and forums for it |
| 23:26.17 | nevcairiel | foxlit: let me try on the test suite, heh |
| 23:26.28 | foxlit | Dezzimal: for bonus points, just revoke the license. |
| 23:26.42 | Thunder_Child | Dezzimal, if you read he said he would send you a copy |
| 23:27.22 | *** join/#wowuidev Funkeh`` (n=funk@host81-158-173-228.range81-158.btcentralplus.com) |
| 23:27.23 | Shirik | lua> t = {}; a={[t]=t} |
| 23:27.23 | lua_bot | Shirik: No output |
| 23:27.28 | Dezzimal | on his forums? |
| 23:27.38 | Shirik | lua> t = {}; a={[t]=t}; for k,v in pairs(a) do print(k,v) end |
| 23:27.38 | lua_bot | Shirik: table: 0x80aaa58, table: 0x80aaa58 |
| 23:28.24 | Thunder_Child | on the wowi one Dezzimal |
| 23:28.32 | Dezzimal | oh I only looked at curse/his site |
| 23:28.40 | Thunder_Child | Dezzimal, http://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/info5467-Outfitter.html |
| 23:29.01 | nevcairiel | foxlit: it doesn't seem to catch the reference |
| 23:29.15 | foxlit | meh, it's a relatively evil example. |
| 23:29.35 | nevcairiel | I guess |
| 23:29.40 | nevcairiel | but could be solved by a table cache |
| 23:29.44 | nevcairiel | but shrug |
| 23:30.17 | nevcairiel | Hm, actually, that won't fix it |
| 23:30.25 | nevcairiel | the deserializer would need to know somehow too |
| 23:30.27 | nevcairiel | oh well |
| 23:31.03 | Shirik | Sadly, my serializer would almost make that work |
| 23:31.24 | Shirik | The thing that's wrong is it would make two separate tables instead of the same table |
| 23:31.33 | Shirik | But I specifically wrote it to transfer values, not references |
| 23:31.47 | foxlit | how do you handle tables as keys? |
| 23:32.07 | Shirik | Fun thing is, I do it accidentally |
| 23:32.17 | foxlit | nevermind, serializer. |
| 23:32.21 | Shirik | They are handled exactly the same as if it were a value that were a table |
| 23:32.26 | foxlit | I was thinking of copy :) |
| 23:32.39 | Shirik | Except it's prefixed with K for key instead of V for value |
| 23:32.57 | nevcairiel | The structure itself is kept in tact, just that AS does not know that its supposed to be the same table |
| 23:33.23 | Shirik | so we have the same problem |
| 23:33.35 | nevcairiel | Yeah, it just blindly seriales all tables |
| 23:33.36 | Shirik | with a little extra work it could be done, I just never bothered to consider that case because it never came up for me |
| 23:39.54 | NeoTron | so someone must have written a table/list type widget for AceGUI right? seems like such a basic thing to have |
| 23:40.39 | *** join/#wowuidev Wobin (n=Wobin@124-168-131-220.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 23:41.03 | Maldivia | ohh wow... being out for 24 hours, and I missed everything about the new UI policies... |
| 23:41.23 | cogwheel | hi2u |
| 23:41.30 | cogwheel | you've got some reading to do :P |
| 23:41.51 | Maldivia | page 4 of 37.... and counting |
| 23:42.23 | nevcairiel | Better read the wowi thread, it was relatively short last time i checked |
| 23:42.45 | Maldivia | cogwheel: and I can only say I agree with you (or well, what you've posted till page 4 :) |
| 23:42.50 | nevcairiel | until you get to page 37, there will be 10 more pages |
| 23:43.22 | foxlit | More importantly, the threads are mostly content-free |
| 23:43.54 | foxlit | (it's mostly the same argument repeated as more people wake up / go back to bed) |
| 23:45.19 | Maldivia | hmm... shirtless tahmoh penikett or reading this thread... think I'll finish watching Dollhouse first... |
| 23:46.20 | bleeter | cogwheel: fwiw, according to my IANAL reading, they've also banned addons from advertising in game profession services in /trade (think Enchantix Barker as an eg) ;) |
| 23:46.39 | *** join/#wowuidev chris_s (n=chris@c-69-142-35-23.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) |
| 23:46.59 | bleeter | askprice might be on slightly wobbly ground, too |
| 23:49.07 | cogwheel | ~fail forums |
| 23:49.08 | purl | You suck at everything in life, forums. I hate you because you fail. |
| 23:49.16 | bleeter | heh just noticed that too |
| 23:49.46 | cogwheel | they started getting progressively more sluggish a minute or so ago |
| 23:49.50 | cogwheel | guess i should've seen it coming :P |
| 23:50.03 | bleeter | why don't blizz have decent 500 pages yet? |
| 23:50.16 | bleeter | yet another feather in the cap of looking amateur |
| 23:50.20 | nevcairiel | is Server Error in red not decent enough? :) |
| 23:50.22 | Dagmar | Probably the kiddies are breaking out their little DDoS tools to demonstrate that they can throw a tantrum for some imagined slight |
| 23:50.38 | Lopeppeppy | Saturday night, a lot of people hitting game, hitting the auth servers. |
| 23:50.40 | kmcguire | I am tired of someone trying to make a cheap buck with a pile o' crap anyway. I mean I can understand charging with you run a server and it is transfering GBs of data per day, but for a jerky little LUA add-on.. no way. |
| 23:50.52 | krka | kmcguire: LUA, what's that? Did you mean to say Lua? ;-) |
| 23:50.54 | cogwheel | i'm already authed :P |
| 23:51.04 | nevcairiel | Lopeppeppy: from my experience, it always feels "empty" on saturday nights on my realm |
| 23:51.07 | Lopeppeppy | Forums are for fail. *nod* |
| 23:51.21 | Lopeppeppy | nevcairiel, I was the only person logged in my guild. I cried and left, I wanted company! |
| 23:51.30 | cogwheel | kmcguire: good your you. you can't understand it. Does that mean you have to spoil it for the rest of us? |
| 23:51.32 | Dagmar | They'll probably stay that way until CMs get clearance to have users killed for trolling |
| 23:51.46 | foxlit | kmcguire: The typical solution for that in other places is to let the free market handle it. |
| 23:51.48 | Dagmar | ...and I do mean "killed" as in "brutally murdered" |
| 23:51.59 | *** join/#wowuidev Riffage (n=nnscript@78-86-205-138.zone2.bethere.co.uk) |
| 23:51.59 | Lopeppeppy | Mmm, murder. |
| 23:52.00 | Dagmar | foxlit: Doesn't work so well tho |
| 23:52.04 | Thunder_Child | what, no torture? |
| 23:52.06 | foxlit | Dagmar: it doesn't? |
| 23:52.08 | ZorbaTHut | it seems weirdly empty today in general. I'm leveling in Northrend and have seen barely anyone |
| 23:52.30 | nevcairiel | We should team up and re-write every pay-for addon, just free! |
| 23:52.40 | Dagmar | foxlit: Not in cases like this. There's parallels in both webcomics and a few other game's assortment of gaming sites |
| 23:52.42 | kmcguire | Well, I did not say the free market was not going to handle it. Just saying you know. Forcing someone to pay for some features you implement in the Lua add-on is just dumb. |
| 23:52.43 | Aznamir | Funny how Carbonite dug its own grave in just a couple of weeks |
| 23:53.06 | cogwheel | And sad that blizzard felt they had to dump a bunch of other people in the grave with them |
| 23:53.11 | foxlit | Dagmar: so people pay... for crappy web comics? |
| 23:53.15 | Dagmar | foxlit: In both cases, a company started pressuring smaller sites to come work under their banner, then later took their content and basically said "If you don't like it, too bad" |
| 23:53.26 | nevcairiel | kmcguire: people are dumb, you'll never stop them from being, just let them be =P |
| 23:53.42 | cogwheel | it's dumb to pay for things? O>o |
| 23:53.46 | cogwheel | O.o* |
| 23:53.49 | ZorbaTHut | kmcguire, how does this "force" happen exactly? |
| 23:53.52 | kmcguire | I think the donate buttons are fine, especially, when they are not obtrusive to the user. |
| 23:54.12 | Dagmar | foxlit It would be all too easy for someone like IGE to start courting developers to get them to take their addon work out of the public domain and contribute to a "professional team" |
| 23:54.26 | kmcguire | ZorbaTHut: Well, I do not mean force really. |
| 23:54.57 | kmcguire | I would just feel 'forced' if someone made a add-on that was (pretty darn simple) and then tried to swindle me for some money to use it. |
| 23:54.59 | nevcairiel | cogwheel: I can't think of any pay-for WoW addon that can't really be replaced by another (set of) addons, so imho, its dumb to pay .. but apparently enough people did, but shrug, what do i care what they do with their money =) |
| 23:55.00 | cogwheel | Dagmar: and? |
| 23:55.05 | Dagmar | kmcguire: I think the policy agrees with you actually |
| 23:55.19 | kmcguire | Yeah, it does. |
| 23:55.25 | cogwheel | and that's assinine |
| 23:55.34 | foxlit | kmcguire: "This addon is simple. I'm not going to pay for it" << there does not appear to be a problem. |
| 23:55.36 | *** join/#wowuidev Kraft (n=kraftman@cpc3-cwma2-0-0-cust836.swan.cable.ntl.com) |
| 23:55.37 | cogwheel | option 1) you don't have the addon, someone else does |
| 23:55.42 | cogwheel | option 2) no one has the addon |
| 23:55.46 | cogwheel | Which situation is better? |
| 23:55.53 | Dagmar | I'm getting irked with the people making the completely failtacular claim that the policy forbids anyone even mentioning donation information when asked |
| 23:56.09 | Dagmar | ...or that getting any kind of money at all was banned by the policy |
| 23:56.09 | cogwheel | Dagmar: i am to |
| 23:56.13 | cogwheel | that's not what's at issue |
| 23:56.21 | cogwheel | actually, getting any kind of money is banned |
| 23:56.27 | cogwheel | see #1 |
| 23:56.27 | bleeter | I'm still stunned people don't read it as Profession /trade addons are banned as well |
| 23:56.28 | Dagmar | No, it's not. |
| 23:56.47 | Dagmar | bleeter: I won't mind seeing those go |
| 23:56.52 | kmcguire | What I would like to know is. How did this add-on which I know nothing off actually hide it's code well enough to keep people from circumventing it? |
| 23:56.54 | nevcairiel | cogwheel: you can ask for donations on WoWI or your own distribution page, still qualifys as getting money |
| 23:57.05 | bleeter | Dagmar: cmon, have you tried doing manually what Enchantrix Barker does? |
| 23:57.12 | cogwheel | yes, but they are actively preventing other ways of getting money |
| 23:57.23 | Dagmar | ...although I was much considering something that put a UI to Trade itself that resulted in people trying to talk about their sphincters being flooded out of the channel by deals being made |
| 23:57.25 | cogwheel | obviously that kind of arrangement isn't enough to keep some addons going |
| 23:57.39 | bleeter | Dagmar: do you even KNOW what enchantrix barker does? |
| 23:57.48 | Dagmar | bleeter: What? Pressing a macro to say I've got leatherworking goods for sale? |
| 23:57.48 | cogwheel | hence being left with option 2 |
| 23:58.02 | kmcguire | Yeah, I agree with Dagmar. |
| 23:58.08 | bleeter | Dagmar: takes AH mats costs and advertises prices for enchants |
| 23:58.19 | bleeter | as long as one doesn't break the SPAM rule where's the problem? |
| 23:58.28 | *** join/#wowuidev PProvost (n=PProvost@WoWUIDev/WAU/Admin/Pprovost) |
| 23:58.32 | bleeter | oh, UI policy bans advertising using addons |
| 23:58.34 | Dagmar | bleeter: So what. I just add the cost of a vellum, chuck them into the AH and get on with the killing |
| 23:58.37 | kmcguire | Not to mention... some if not a lot of add-ons that might try the pay for premimum tactic.. Are actually using loads of libs --- not written by them. |
| 23:58.58 | nevcairiel | Somehow i don't think it was targeted at advertising ingame crafting services at all |
| 23:59.00 | ZorbaTHut | kmc, what's the problem? if the lib author didn't want it usable in that manner, they could have made it GPL |
| 23:59.24 | kmcguire | It just makes me mad, haha. |
| 23:59.26 | Dagmar | bleeter: People like to make sure their little ad line is in the trade window at all times because there's some marketing pinheads that will insist thats' a way to "maximize their exposure" |
| 23:59.29 | bleeter | nevcairiel: probably right there. but the opening sentence mentions legal action, then say not allowed to use addons to advertise ... so.. /shrug |
| 23:59.35 | foxlit | See, "mad" isn't rational. |
| 23:59.43 | Dagmar | bleeter; If they want to automate sales, there's the AH |
