| 00:00.58 | *** join/#wowuidev nushkah4552 (n=Miranda@74.92.244.121) |
| 00:01.15 | *** join/#wowuidev ckknight (n=ckknight@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/CurseStaff/CurseForge/ckknight) |
| 00:01.15 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o ckknight] by ChanServ |
| 00:01.15 | *** join/#wowuidev DWSR2 (n=doingwha@24.114.252.240) |
| 00:02.20 | bleeter | Adys: I got a big fat 0 in my mail so far :( |
| 00:02.28 | Adys | aight |
| 00:02.37 | bleeter | ripped off |
| 00:05.09 | [draco] | EU PTR down? |
| 00:05.53 | *** join/#wowuidev Lopeppeppy (n=Lopeppep@cpe-69-204-134-64.nycap.res.rr.com) |
| 00:05.53 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+v Lopeppeppy] by ChanServ |
| 00:06.14 | *** join/#wowuidev haste_ (i=haste@hirano.ixo.no) |
| 00:09.16 | bleeter | then again |
| 00:09.21 | bleeter | maybe I've just been forum banned |
| 00:09.24 | bleeter | on both accounts |
| 00:09.32 | bleeter | and no one ever emailed me 'bout it >< |
| 00:10.50 | Adys | Fail |
| 00:10.51 | Adys | http://google-latlong.blogspot.com/2009/03/mapping-madness-returns.html |
| 00:12.04 | bleeter | Adys: WUT? |
| 00:12.20 | Adys | err 500 |
| 00:12.24 | Adys | on the embed |
| 00:12.40 | bleeter | Posted by Adam Hughes, Google Earth Senior Strategist and College Hoops Fan, Failure. |
| 00:13.01 | *** join/#wowuidev Fatalus (n=gaben@68-188-68-189.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com) |
| 00:14.23 | *** join/#wowuidev MentalPower (i=MPower@WoWUIDev/Norganna/Administrator/MentalPower) |
| 00:14.23 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+v MentalPower] by ChanServ |
| 00:23.30 | *** join/#wowuidev Wraithan (n=wraithan@c-76-105-137-246.hsd1.or.comcast.net) |
| 00:24.22 | Wraithan | Anyone recommend an addon for player notes, things like 2k+ dps in VH, or Worst tank EVER. ? |
| 00:24.43 | Adys | Wraithan: PlayerNotes |
| 00:25.49 | Adys | cog|away: http://devcub.com/~adys/fontfail.png |
| 00:26.48 | Lopeppeppy | Karma? |
| 00:26.58 | *** join/#wowuidev Exawatt (n=chatzill@c-68-32-185-166.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) |
| 00:27.50 | *** join/#wowuidev Gryphon (n=gryphon@c-67-183-90-200.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) |
| 00:28.02 | Exawatt | Anyone know how to make those nifty little square buttons that launch the ColorPickerFrame and are set to that color? Or should I just make my own button? |
| 00:29.57 | *** join/#wowuidev batrick (n=batrick@batbytes.com) |
| 00:30.12 | NeoTron | hehe some dude in LFG: 3k spellpower DK LFG |
| 00:30.56 | mikma | whats his name ans server |
| 00:31.06 | mikma | check bhis gear from wow-armory |
| 00:32.11 | *** join/#wowuidev Yssaril (n=Yssaril@adsl-99-135-92-228.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net) |
| 00:32.48 | NeoTron | I did |
| 00:32.55 | NeoTron | he probably just made a typi and meant 3k ap |
| 00:33.11 | NeoTron | was still funny - figured he took advantarge of all that psell gear! |
| 00:36.55 | Adys | browsing old screenshots |
| 00:37.07 | Adys | http://devcub.com/~adys/wtfisgoingon.jpg |
| 00:37.28 | Adys | http://devcub.com/~adys/bumpcars1.jpg / http://devcub.com/~adys/bumpcars2.jpg |
| 00:39.07 | *** join/#wowuidev Aznamir (n=aznamir@ool-43544a0d.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 00:39.57 | mikma | http://wow.reaktio.net/grlgrl.jpg |
| 00:40.14 | Lopeppeppy | Hawt |
| 00:41.40 | Shirik | fyi |
| 00:41.44 | Shirik | never bring a warrior with spell reflect to malygos |
| 00:41.48 | Shirik | improved spell reflect* |
| 00:42.13 | Shirik | Apparently you can reflect the little bubbles you stand under |
| 00:42.47 | mikma | cool |
| 00:43.08 | mikma | http://wow.reaktio.net/lol/WoWScrnShot_102108_230700.jpg |
| 00:45.11 | mikma | one of those priceless moments: http://wow.reaktio.net/lol/WoWScrnShot_111908_054053.jpg |
| 00:47.46 | WobWork | ? |
| 00:47.53 | WobWork | I'm not seeing it |
| 00:49.30 | mikma | look again =) |
| 00:49.34 | Rabbitbunny | Do you guys know of a loot addon that drops the cheapest thing from your bags? |
| 00:49.55 | Lopeppeppy | Lots of them out there, Rabbitbunny.... |
| 00:50.06 | Rabbitbunny | such as... |
| 00:50.17 | mikma | tekJunkSeller! |
| 00:50.29 | mikma | it drops stuff in vendor |
| 00:50.55 | Rabbitbunny | yeah, I've noticed lots of them do that. I want it to drop things every time I loot. |
| 00:50.58 | Lopeppeppy | Inventory Mods list on WoW Interface. Browse as you will. |
| 00:51.01 | Lopeppeppy | http://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/cat20.html |
| 00:51.37 | Rabbitbunny | Thanks. Google couldn't have told me that. |
| 00:51.45 | Rabbitbunny | I'm already reading the list. |
| 00:51.55 | Aznamir | I did notice a strange thing on PTR |
| 00:52.05 | Lopeppeppy | Search by category is awesome on the addon sites. You find a lot of fun stuff that way. |
| 00:52.11 | Aznamir | after I do /realodui my ace2 mod takes good 10-15 seconds to initialize |
| 00:53.34 | Arrowmaster | initialize how? for the OnInitialize to be called? |
| 00:54.00 | Aznamir | could be a lag |
| 00:54.32 | Aznamir | yeah, probably... 1000+ms right now |
| 00:54.52 | Lopeppeppy | Yeah... that's pretty spiffy lag right there. |
| 00:56.46 | WobWork | mikma: oh the triple recipe |
| 00:56.59 | WobWork | pft, bastard needed three times on that =P |
| 00:58.54 | Lopeppeppy | Phrase from a commercial, "Made with a blend of nutritious oils." ... eeeeew. |
| 00:59.45 | *** join/#wowuidev Iriel (n=Iriel@71.158.244.138) |
| 00:59.45 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o Iriel] by ChanServ |
| 01:02.39 | Aznamir | never ming... that was the RosterLib taking some weird time to initialize |
| 01:02.43 | Aznamir | mind* |
| 01:02.52 | *** join/#wowuidev anatashinu (n=anatashi@adsl-69-208-1-219.dsl.akrnoh.ameritech.net) |
| 01:02.54 | anatashinu | hi |
| 01:03.15 | anatashinu | hello? |
| 01:03.37 | Lopeppeppy | Morning. |
| 01:03.49 | anatashinu | i need to hide my minimap permanently |
| 01:04.03 | anatashinu | is there any way to do this? like in config.wtf? |
| 01:04.21 | Lopeppeppy | I know that Shift-M closes it until you re-open it. Hmm. |
| 01:04.34 | anatashinu | it crashes wow pretty much when it loads |
| 01:04.48 | anatashinu | and i dont want to hurry to close it when i log in |
| 01:05.14 | Lopeppeppy | The better question is why your minimap would crash wow. |
| 01:05.20 | anatashinu | my drivers |
| 01:05.24 | anatashinu | err not drivers |
| 01:05.27 | anatashinu | my video card |
| 01:05.40 | anatashinu | ive found theres no way out of it w/o new video card |
| 01:05.52 | Lopeppeppy | If it's not the minimap crashing you, it's going to be something else, if your video card is to blame. |
| 01:06.03 | anatashinu | well its some thing the minimap ses |
| 01:06.06 | anatashinu | uses* |
| 01:06.53 | Lopeppeppy | Mini map is just game code, unless you have some addon changing your mini map? |
| 01:06.56 | anatashinu | pixel buffers |
| 01:07.20 | anatashinu | my video card doesnt do pixel buffers, which is what wow uses for the indoors minimap |
| 01:07.36 | anatashinu | " |
| 01:07.36 | anatashinu | It is obvious that the new ATI drivers still lack support for pixel-buffers. It is the lack of pixel buffers implemented in the ATI drivers causing the white minimap indoors which can proove to be frustrating to do without when in a raid and needing to know where the other players are." |
| 01:08.08 | anatashinu | so how do I hide the minimap permanently? |
| 01:08.41 | Lopeppeppy | You picked an odd time of night to catch the guys who work with code, who might have an answer for that. I'm looking for an addon for you, but while many change it, I'm not finding ones that remove it. |
| 01:09.10 | anatashinu | like is there a line you can add to config.wtf to make it not show up? |
| 01:09.23 | Gnarfoz | there isn't |
| 01:09.24 | Legorol | this might have been asked already, i apologise for not scrolling back, but can't you just click the red cross in the corner to close the minimap after you log in? |
| 01:09.28 | Legorol | or do you still crash it? |
| 01:09.47 | Lopeppeppy | He can't wait for it to resolve before closing it, Legorol, or he crashes. |
| 01:09.55 | Lopeppeppy | There's an addon posted in this old thread, it may or may not work still. |
| 01:09.56 | Lopeppeppy | http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html;jsessionid=BFF987C8388D1E4E4184F27F381A74AA.app03_02?topicId=3704790703&sid=1 |
| 01:10.36 | Legorol | thanks Lopeppeppy, i appreciate the answer. was faster than me scrolling through the whole convo :) |
| 01:10.54 | anatashinu | thanks |
| 01:10.58 | anatashinu | ill try it |
| 01:11.39 | anatashinu | if i go offline ill be back in a minute |
| 01:11.49 | Lopeppeppy | 's okay, Legorol, 's what the Peppy does. |
| 01:12.03 | Lopeppeppy | You answered the code part of it. :) |
| 01:12.17 | Legorol | if the addon in the thread is not working, poke back here and i'll see if i can fix it up for you |
| 01:12.42 | anatashinu | hey it worked |
| 01:12.43 | anatashinu | thanks |
| 01:12.48 | anatashinu | now my other problem.. |
| 01:12.56 | anatashinu | all of the icons are screwed up |
| 01:12.59 | Legorol | hurray, i looked awfully helpful without having to have actually done anything |
| 01:13.43 | anatashinu | lol |
| 01:13.49 | MentalPower | anatashinu: err... unless you're using an ancient card (<1999), it should support pixel buffers |
| 01:14.04 | MentalPower | and even if it doesn't then you can use software emulation via opengl |
| 01:14.05 | anatashinu | let me find my card real quick |
| 01:14.11 | anatashinu | wait this is an ubuntu forum right? |
| 01:14.15 | anatashinu | err irc chat |
| 01:14.26 | Lopeppeppy | Not specifically, no. |
| 01:14.28 | MentalPower | this is a wow ui development irc |
| 01:14.31 | anatashinu | o ok |
| 01:14.38 | MentalPower | where a few users use wow under wine |
| 01:14.41 | anatashinu | well I use Linux so thats probably part of it |
| 01:14.41 | WobWork | hehe |
| 01:14.44 | WobWork | "Donât wait for him. If the gates open when heâs on the other side, then turn around, jump, and disengage to cross the distance faster." |
| 01:14.45 | Lopeppeppy | I know WoW runs okay under Wine... |
| 01:14.55 | WobWork | finally a hunter that understands how his talents work =) |
| 01:14.56 | Legorol | ah you are running WoW under wine |
| 01:15.04 | anatashinu | I think its not actually my card but the drivers available for my card |
| 01:15.08 | Legorol | then i'm out of my depth so i'll stfu :) |
| 01:15.18 | Lopeppeppy | Yeah. Wine cuts me right out. |
| 01:15.22 | Legorol | although there is one thing you can try |
| 01:15.29 | Legorol | you should be able to try to run WoW in opengl mode |
| 01:15.32 | anatashinu | windows? |
| 01:15.33 | anatashinu | lol |
| 01:15.34 | Lopeppeppy | Trying to remember who our Wine happypeople are, drawing a big feverish blank. |
| 01:15.36 | Legorol | how you would go around doing that in wine, i have no idea |
| 01:15.38 | anatashinu | im in opengl mode |
| 01:15.44 | WobWork | wow.exe -opengl |
| 01:15.51 | anatashinu | i just need to get a new card or wait for drivers |
| 01:15.58 | anatashinu | ya i use opengl |
| 01:16.09 | Legorol | so the problem is specifically with the drivers available for Linux for your card? |
| 01:16.15 | ScytheBlade1 | What card? |
| 01:16.30 | MentalPower | yeah, what card |
| 01:17.04 | anatashinu | ya |
| 01:17.08 | anatashinu | ill find out what card |
| 01:17.56 | Legorol | While I'm sympathetic to your situation, I'll go with unsupported systemz iz unsupported. |
| 01:18.10 | anatashinu | I think its Intel Graphics Media Accelerator 4500MHD |
| 01:18.24 | Legorol | O.o then why were you talking about ATI drivers? |
| 01:18.28 | anatashinu | but that doesnt sound like a video card |
| 01:18.30 | anatashinu | umm |
| 01:18.31 | Gnarfoz | urgh, that's not even a card :D |
| 01:18.31 | anatashinu | idk |
| 01:18.34 | ScytheBlade1 | It does |
| 01:18.34 | anatashinu | lol |
| 01:18.37 | Legorol | it can be an onboard video chip |
| 01:18.40 | Legorol | it does sound like one |
| 01:18.41 | ScytheBlade1 | That does too sound like a card |
| 01:18.42 | Gnarfoz | that's your onboard integrated graphics chip |
| 01:18.42 | anatashinu | here you guys look |
| 01:18.44 | ScytheBlade1 | Intel GMA 4500 |
| 01:18.44 | Lopeppeppy | MP, share the rum? |
| 01:18.47 | anatashinu | http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4421652&Sku=T71-15404 |
| 01:18.47 | anatashinu | lol |
| 01:19.14 | Gnarfoz | it's a graphics chip alright, but for 3d, it's... well... "not good"? :P |
| 01:19.26 | kd3 | 'not good' doesn't even begin to describe it |
| 01:19.46 | Lopeppeppy | Hi hi, kd3. I think you do Wine. Am I hallucinating? |
| 01:19.59 | ScytheBlade1 | He drinks profusely, yes |
| 01:20.01 | anatashinu | lol |
| 01:20.02 | Legorol | Unfortunately this is a really unfortunate case. |
| 01:20.17 | anatashinu | should i get a nvidia like i have for my desktop? |
| 01:20.22 | anatashinu | it runs wow fine |
| 01:20.27 | Legorol | Running WoW on an integrated on-board video chip under wine is just so far from the intended use that I can't even begin to describe it. |
| 01:20.29 | Gnarfoz | make sure to send a copy of this to the Departement of Redundancy Departement, Legorol |
| 01:20.37 | anatashinu | lol |
| 01:20.39 | Legorol | Gnarfoz: I will, in triplicate. |
| 01:20.45 | Gnarfoz | goody |
| 01:20.48 | Lopeppeppy | i just need you to file those TPS reports, okay? |
| 01:21.13 | kd3 | lope; I do |
| 01:21.21 | Gnarfoz | threat/second? right |
| 01:21.33 | Lopeppeppy | Yay for a non-hallucinatory moment. |
| 01:21.38 | Lopeppeppy | I think I need a cool shower. |
| 01:22.02 | ScytheBlade1 | I'd ship you cookies (or piles of day/nyquil) but I'm broke |
| 01:22.02 | Legorol | hm, the specs say this chip is DirectX 10 and Shader 4.0 compliant, so it's pretty modern |
| 01:22.04 | anatashinu | it it possible to replace my video card on a laptop? |
| 01:22.11 | MentalPower | unlikely |
| 01:22.15 | ScytheBlade1 | Legorol: it is actually one of the newest Intel GMA cards |
| 01:22.19 | Lopeppeppy | anatashinu, occasionally, but not often. |
| 01:22.20 | Legorol | anatashinu, here is an idea: |
| 01:22.24 | Gnarfoz | it is, but it's still crap! :p |
| 01:22.38 | Gnarfoz | however, many modern laptops include both that chip and a dedicated GPU |
| 01:22.39 | Legorol | This chip uses dynamic memory, in other words leeches off of your main RAM. See if you can configure it to leech more. |
| 01:22.54 | Gnarfoz | maybe you're missing drivers for the "proper" one? |
| 01:22.55 | Legorol | hm, that was vague |
| 01:22.59 | *** join/#wowuidev anatashinu_ (n=anatashi@adsl-69-208-1-219.dsl.akrnoh.ameritech.net) |
| 01:23.02 | anatashinu_ | hi |
| 01:23.08 | anatashinu_ | sorry my laptop froze |
| 01:23.10 | Gnarfoz | (something like an AMD RadeonHD 3650 or something) |
| 01:23.15 | Legorol | what i mean is, fiddle with your BIOS settings and see if you can up the amount of RAM that the gpu uses |
| 01:23.18 | ScytheBlade1 | anatashinu_: there are two problems with your card. (1) it is simply too new to have great support under linux now. (2) it is NOT that incredibly powerful. It will run, but only several months down the line. |
| 01:23.55 | Legorol | ScytheBlade1: what do you think of my idea? worth trying? |
| 01:24.08 | anatashinu_ | 1. is it possible to replace a video card on a laptop? 2. what should i get? |
| 01:24.15 | ScytheBlade1 | If you nuked ubuntu and went with XP or Vista, it'd "work" but the performance simply isn't going to be great |
| 01:24.26 | Legorol | 1. probably not 2. a desktop |
| 01:24.26 | ScytheBlade1 | anatashinu_: It depends and it depends :) |
| 01:24.30 | anatashinu_ | mmm |
| 01:24.35 | anatashinu_ | well i use 3d alot |
| 01:24.50 | Legorol | anatashinu: you probably missed this part when you froze: "This chip uses dynamic memory, in other words leeches off of your main RAM. See if you can configure it to leech more." |
| 01:25.00 | Legorol | go into your bios settings and fiddle with that |
| 01:25.02 | anatashinu_ | lol |
| 01:25.08 | anatashinu_ | my bios is retarded |
| 01:25.10 | Legorol | I have seen odd graphics issues resolved by that step |
| 01:25.11 | ScytheBlade1 | Legorol: worth a shot sure, but not by much. It is a VERY new chipset, my laptop has a close cousin of it and support for it is still terrible. Improving in 2.6.29, but good luck finding a distro running *that* bleeding edge |
| 01:25.37 | Legorol | ScytheBlade1: ok. I figured might as well try the simpler troubleshooting steps, worth the try imo. |
| 01:25.46 | Lopeppeppy | Sometimes having the new new is not so good. |
| 01:25.48 | ScytheBlade1 | anatashinu_: do you know how to 'sudo' in ubuntu? Does that ring a bell? |
| 01:25.56 | Wraithan | What does the distro have to do with the kernel? |
| 01:26.12 | anatashinu_ | ya |
| 01:26.15 | ScytheBlade1 | Wraithan: compare debian stable to gentoo. Guess which will run a more recent kernel. |
| 01:26.19 | Legorol | anatashinu_: your bios might be retarded, but that doesn't mean it doesn't contain the setting i'm talking about |
| 01:26.22 | ScytheBlade1 | anatashinu_: sudo lspci |
| 01:26.23 | anatashinu_ | im like medium-good with ubuntu |
| 01:26.27 | MentalPower | anatashinu: have you tried updating to the latest available intel linux drivers http://intellinuxgraphics.org/ ? |
| 01:26.31 | ScytheBlade1 | anatashinu_: and then copy/paste the output to pastey.net |
| 01:26.42 | Gnarfoz | and since it probably went under when you crashed: |
| 01:26.44 | ScytheBlade1 | MentalPower: bad freaking terrible idea with ubuntu |
| 01:26.47 | anatashinu_ | ok |
| 01:26.48 | Legorol | i think we are overwhelming him with suggestions |
| 01:26.52 | Gnarfoz | <Gnarfoz> however, many modern laptops include both that chip and a dedicated GPU <Gnarfoz> maybe you're missing drivers for the "proper" one? |
| 01:26.52 | Legorol | one step at a time |
| 01:26.53 | Wraithan | ScytheBlade1: you are missing my point, just compile your own kernel if you need options from a newer one |
| 01:26.57 | anatashinu_ | lol |
| 01:26.58 | MentalPower | ScytheBlade1: I didn't know :) |
| 01:27.11 | ScytheBlade1 | Wraithan: which I do all the time. But that pretty clearly isn't the case here. |
| 01:27.13 | Wraithan | Your distro doesn't determine your kernel |
| 01:27.17 | ScytheBlade1 | MentalPower: I only do because I have a similar chipset :) |
| 01:27.23 | Gnarfoz | what kind of laptop is it (as accurate as possible ^^) |
| 01:27.35 | Legorol | Gnarfoz: http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4421652&Sku=T71-15404 |
| 01:27.37 | MentalPower | ScytheBlade1: fair nuf |
| 01:28.07 | anatashinu_ | >.< |
| 01:28.14 | Gnarfoz | hmm, nope, stuck with the Intel GMA, then |
| 01:28.15 | Gnarfoz | :> |
| 01:28.16 | anatashinu_ | my laptop cant connect to internet |
| 01:28.28 | Legorol | that doesn't stop you from accessing its bios settings :o) |
| 01:28.29 | MentalPower | that would be a more major issue |
| 01:28.37 | anatashinu_ | lenovo 3000 n500 |
| 01:28.37 | Lopeppeppy | Then how on earth are you 1) talking to us and b) playing wow? |
| 01:28.40 | MentalPower | how can it not access the internet and be able to play wow? |
| 01:28.48 | anatashinu_ | im on my desktop |
| 01:28.49 | MentalPower | peppy beat me to it |
| 01:28.56 | Legorol | guys, his laptop just crashed a few minutes ago |
| 01:29.00 | Legorol | give him a break :) |
| 01:29.01 | anatashinu_ | and i was playin wow before my computer crashed |
| 01:29.04 | Lopeppeppy | Oh. Peppy is sick, I'm sorry. |
| 01:29.04 | anatashinu_ | lol |
| 01:29.07 | ScytheBlade1 | MentalPower: the last few releases of those drivers *require* proper kernel support which hit with 2.6.28, and is ongoing right now, which is why using those stock won't work too terribly well |
| 01:29.19 | Legorol | although the lack of internet doesn't stop you from uninstalling linux and installing windows either :o) |
| 01:29.40 | anatashinu_ | O.o |
| 01:29.43 | anatashinu_ | NEVER!!! |
| 01:29.50 | anatashinu_ | lol |
| 01:29.56 | ScytheBlade1 | Legorol: I suggested the same not too long ago ;) |
| 01:30.13 | ScytheBlade1 | anatashinu_: okay let me sum it up for you, after searching a bit. |
| 01:30.14 | Legorol | anatashinu_: you might say NEVER, but, frankly, unsupported systemz is unsupported. still. |
| 01:30.28 | anatashinu_ | meh |
| 01:30.30 | Legorol | yes, i'm in a discouraging mood |
| 01:30.38 | anatashinu_ | *FLAMEBALL |
| 01:30.47 | anatashinu_ | how do i do the star thingy??? |
| 01:30.49 | anatashinu_ | lol |
| 01:30.55 | ScytheBlade1 | anatashinu_: your laptop should be able to play WoW, but it is simply too new to be able to do so. In a ubuntu release or two you should be good. With that said, no matter your OS or distro, you won't get amazing performance |
| 01:31.06 | anatashinu_ | ok |
| 01:31.08 | anatashinu_ | cool |
| 01:31.19 | ScytheBlade1 | Lopeppeppy: go to bed. |
| 01:31.20 | anatashinu_ | will it work better with a different video card? |
| 01:31.30 | anatashinu_ | * hi* |
| 01:31.34 | anatashinu_ | aawe |
| 01:31.34 | Lopeppeppy | ScytheBlade1, as soon as this upcycle is done, I will.... fever is for suckage. |
| 01:31.40 | anatashinu_ | how do i do the star thingy? |
| 01:31.47 | ScytheBlade1 | anatashinu_: probably. but the chances of you being able to do so for a reasonable price is very little |
| 01:31.52 | anatashinu_ | ok |
| 01:31.55 | anatashinu_ | then... |
| 01:31.57 | anatashinu_ | ok |
| 01:31.58 | ScytheBlade1 | Lopeppeppy: nyquil :) |
| 01:31.59 | anatashinu_ | =) |
| 01:32.17 | Lopeppeppy | ScytheBlade1, it's the flu. I couldn't keep it down long enough to have it make me sleeps. |
| 01:32.41 | ScytheBlade1 | s/here/her/ |
| 01:32.46 | ScytheBlade1 | There are ways ;) |
| 01:33.09 | anatashinu_ | how do i make a star instead of my name? |
| 01:33.10 | Lopeppeppy | ... um, I'd say rawr, but I wouldn't mean it. |
| 01:33.17 | anatashinu_ | *anatashinu_ hi |
| 01:33.23 | anatashinu_ | lol |
| 01:33.24 | ScytheBlade1 | "My arm hurts!" *BAM* "YOU JUST SHOT ME IN THE FOOT" "But your arm doesn't hurt anymore." |
| 01:33.24 | Legorol | anatashinu: what star thingy? |
| 01:33.26 | Gnarfoz | anatashinu: depending on IRC client: /me /em /action etc |
| 01:33.29 | ScytheBlade1 | If nothing else that kind of thing :) |
| 01:33.38 | anatashinu_ | o ok |
| 01:33.45 | Legorol | oh, you meant an emote |
| 01:33.48 | anatashinu_ | ya |
| 01:33.49 | Legorol | that's called an emote |
| 01:33.52 | anatashinu_ | ok |
| 01:34.07 | mikma | s/emote/emo/ |
| 01:34.09 | Legorol | "star thingy" doesn't uniquely identify it. For example, in my IRC client, I get things like: |
| 01:34.11 | Legorol | * Proditor has quit IRC |
| 01:34.18 | Lopeppeppy | I don't get stars upon thars. |
| 01:34.20 | Legorol | that's also a star thingy, but it's not an emote |
| 01:34.23 | ScytheBlade1 | lol - The it87 driver is reporting -128 degrees C as +128 degrees C. |
| 01:34.30 | mikma | <0333> >>> anatashinu_ hi |
| 01:34.40 | anatashinu_ | mikma: hi |
| 01:35.03 | mikma | also, <0332> ::: Proditor [i=proditor@c80-217-101-178.bredband.comhem.se] has quit () |
| 01:35.16 | mikma | i WUV my irssi theme |
| 01:35.26 | bleeter | mikma++ |
| 01:35.31 | bleeter | irssi++ |
| 01:35.34 | WobWork | ~mikma++ |
| 01:35.44 | bleeter | ~irssi++ |
| 01:36.08 | bleeter | WobWork: einfeld got 4 years, 2 suspended |
| 01:36.13 | WobWork | bleeter: So, leaked blacklist isn't actually leaked list =P |
| 01:36.27 | bleeter | WobWork: leaked lolist you mean |
| 01:36.42 | mikma | http://edu.joroinen.fi/~mikma/theme/ |
| 01:36.52 | WobWork | "The former Federal Court judge Marcus Einfeld has been sentenced to at least two years in jail for lying to evade a speeding fine three years ago." |
| 01:36.59 | WobWork | Shortest news article EVA |
| 01:38.17 | bleeter | WobWork: what *WAS* he thinking.. if at all? /boggle |
| 01:38.26 | *** join/#wowuidev QQngsk (n=Gngsk@c-69-138-214-242.hsd1.md.comcast.net) |
| 01:38.31 | WobWork | "I know the system, I can get away with it"? |
| 01:38.42 | WobWork | or maybe "ZOMG PANIC WEASELS!" |
| 01:39.12 | bleeter | to non-aussies: prolly the most well known aussie jurist ... purjury... $77 car speeding ticket |
| 01:39.35 | bleeter | they already taken his letters n stuff off him? |
| 01:39.37 | Gnarfoz | *perjury |
| 01:39.40 | mikma | bleeter: green enough? http://edu.joroinen.fi/~mikma/theme/Matrix.theme.png |
| 01:39.47 | bleeter | Gnarfoz: yeah just testing the non-EN speakers ;) |
| 01:39.59 | Gnarfoz | did I pass, then? |
| 01:40.00 | Gnarfoz | :D |
| 01:40.03 | Legorol | bleeter: you didn't have me fooled :P |
| 01:40.28 | bleeter | mikma: hard to tell, it's all in suomi |
| 01:40.33 | bleeter | ;) |
| 01:40.47 | bleeter | or.. something |
| 01:41.05 | bleeter | mikma: seriously, needs more coffee |
| 01:41.25 | Lopeppeppy | Needs less wall of text, omg. |
| 01:41.27 | bleeter | Legorol: fool me once... |
| 01:41.42 | Legorol | you didn't even fool me once though |
| 01:41.59 | bleeter | shame on me? |
| 01:42.02 | Legorol | yes |
| 01:42.31 | WobWork | =( |
| 01:42.37 | WobWork | ~comfort bleeter |
| 01:42.38 | purl | There, there, bleeter. It's OK. I'm here for you. |
| 01:42.47 | mikma | bleeter: no coffee for me thanks! 03:42am already |
| 01:43.01 | Legorol | :O where do you live mikma, in Russia? |
| 01:43.10 | Legorol | that's GMT+2 for you it seems |
| 01:43.27 | bleeter | finland? |
| 01:43.32 | Legorol | (btw, i didn't mean to imply anything bad about Russia) |
| 01:43.40 | Legorol | isn't finland on GMT+1 like the rest of the EU? |
| 01:43.45 | bleeter | i'm guessing... from the edu....fi, that mikma is in .fi |
| 01:43.46 | Legorol | (with the exception of UK) |
| 01:43.48 | mikma | gmt+2 |
| 01:43.54 | Legorol | ooh, never new finland was on +2 |
| 01:43.58 | Legorol | makes sense though i guess |
| 01:44.00 | mikma | ya, bleeter is nailing it |
| 01:44.19 | WobWork | mikma is one of those crazy finns |
| 01:44.24 | Legorol | does it hurt, bleeter? |
| 01:44.43 | bleeter | in amounts beyond your wildest desires, Legorol |
| 01:44.46 | mikma | ~tryme |
| 01:44.47 | purl | ACTION spins the revolver, points it at mikma and fires. Click. |
| 01:44.49 | Legorol | rofl |
| 01:45.07 | WobWork | ~ugt |
| 01:45.08 | purl | hmm... ugt is Universal Greeting Time. Created in #mipslinux, it is a rule that states that whenever somebody enters an IRC channel it is always morning, and it is always late when the person leaves. The local time of any other people in the channel, including the greeter, is irrelevant. http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html |
| 01:45.09 | Legorol | Gnarfoz, do you want me to use UTC+X instead? |
| 01:45.10 | bleeter | UGT OR DEATH |
| 01:45.22 | Gnarfoz | Legorol: yes |
| 01:45.30 | Legorol | ok |
| 01:45.32 | Gnarfoz | :> |
| 01:45.39 | Lukian | Legorol, "knew" |
| 01:45.41 | Legorol | is that because people often get confused about GMT and use it inappropriately? |
| 01:45.41 | Gnarfoz | or Swatch Beat! |
| 01:45.47 | mikma | ~gm |
| 01:45.48 | purl | i heard gm is Gambia |
| 01:46.03 | cog|away | Adys: nice screenie :P |
| 01:46.04 | kd3 | heh. I've got a @beats watch lying around, somewhere |
| 01:46.04 | Legorol | for practical purposes, GMT = UTC |
| 01:46.05 | mikma | pff =/ was especting general motors |
| 01:46.11 | Legorol | but admittedly often people get it wrong |
| 01:46.13 | Gnarfoz | Legorol: no, not |
| 01:46.25 | Legorol | oh dear, here we go.. |
| 01:46.26 | Lopeppeppy | UN is the united nations |
| 01:46.31 | Legorol | the UTC vs. GMT debate |
| 01:46.33 | Gnarfoz | Legorol: heh ;) |
| 01:46.50 | Lopeppeppy | I prefer PST myself. Peppy Standard Time. I'm never late. |
| 01:46.52 | Lopeppeppy | You are. |
| 01:46.53 | bleeter | WobWork: so in UGT, does 'true' reflect morning state, or night? |
| 01:46.55 | Lopeppeppy | All the time.... |
| 01:47.02 | mikma | psm |
| 01:47.04 | bleeter | WobWork: coz like... morning indicates coffee which is good and good is true |
| 01:47.05 | Gnarfoz | since Greenwhich is affected by DST, during DST ("BST", actually^^)... what time is it in Greenwhich? ^^ |
| 01:47.13 | bleeter | WobWork: but night indicates sleep and sleep is good too |
| 01:47.13 | Legorol | Gnarfoz: so how are they different? (and i did use the qualifier "for practical purposes") |
| 01:47.24 | Legorol | Gnarfoz: oh dear, oh dear |
| 01:47.29 | mikma | hey look! boobies! |
| 01:47.33 | Legorol | that is *exactly* the common misconception that people often have |
| 01:47.40 | Legorol | GMT is *NOT!!!!* affected by DST |
| 01:47.42 | cog|away | Adys: i found something a while back for alestane but i can't remember what it was... |
| 01:47.45 | Legorol | if you don't believe me, go read the wiki |
| 01:47.46 | Iriel | Gnarfoz: You are misinformed |
| 01:47.55 | cog|away | my google-fu is weak atm |
| 01:47.56 | Iriel | GMT is GMT is GMT |
| 01:47.57 | Gnarfoz | Greenwhich != GMT |
| 01:47.57 | Gnarfoz | :p |
| 01:48.00 | Gnarfoz | read what I wrote. |
| 01:48.01 | Gnarfoz | :> |
| 01:48.09 | Iriel | England varies between GMT and BST |
| 01:48.10 | mikma | STOP IT WITH THE TIMEZONES ALREADY! .. nerds |
| 01:48.13 | Iriel | but GMT remains GMT |
| 01:48.15 | ScytheBlade1 | They did and they all complained :) |
| 01:48.16 | WobWork | Greenwich |
| 01:48.25 | cogwheel | mikma: don't you like it when we talk nerdy to you? |
| 01:48.27 | MentalPower | just like theres EST and EDT |
| 01:48.28 | bleeter | mikma: http://users.on.net/~bleeter/boobies.jpg |
| 01:48.30 | Tekkub | Bastard Standard TIme |
| 01:48.39 | mikma | cogwheel: it makes me feel all dirty |
| 01:48.49 | *** join/#wowuidev sioraiocht (n=sioraioc@78-86-82-152.zone2.bethere.co.uk) |
| 01:48.53 | Legorol | if there is one channel where i can let out my inner nerd, it's this one |
| 01:48.59 | Legorol | i always feel safe and at home here |
| 01:49.00 | mikma | s/Bastard/Bear/ |
| 01:49.03 | ScytheBlade1 | bleeter: I had a guy in my vanilla WoW guild who out of the blue one day, started saying "boobies" over vent, over and over and over |
| 01:49.11 | Gnarfoz | Iriel: who remains under GMT during england's DST period, though? |
| 01:49.13 | ScytheBlade1 | bleeter: as you can well imagine, people demanded he post pictures |
| 01:49.13 | bleeter | lol mikma |
| 01:49.18 | ScytheBlade1 | bleeter: ... birds appeared! |
| 01:49.22 | Iriel | Gnarfoz: Astronomers? |
| 01:49.30 | Iriel | ANyone who NOW uses UTC |
| 01:49.38 | Tekkub | bears do not have standard time |
| 01:49.42 | Iriel | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwich_Mean_Time |
| 01:49.42 | WobWork | ScytheBlade1: why do birds suddenly appear? |
| 01:49.45 | WobWork | Every time, you are near? |
| 01:49.45 | Tekkub | we just sleep whenever the fuck we want |
| 01:49.49 | ScytheBlade1 | WobWork: .......... |
| 01:49.58 | Legorol | imo the main reason for using UTC instead of GMT is precisely because of the misconceptions surrounding GMT |
| 01:49.58 | Lopeppeppy | Just like me, they long to be.... |
| 01:50.06 | WobWork | Close to YOUUUU |
| 01:50.18 | Lopeppeppy | AHHhhhhhhhh! |
| 01:50.32 | WobWork | Are we dating ourselves here, Lope? =P |
| 01:50.33 | bleeter | Legorol: not to mention that GMT is technically wrong anyways, or some shizz like that ;) |
| 01:50.34 | Iriel | Legorol: Not really, they are actually different values |
| 01:50.38 | Gnarfoz | Legorol: we just hate these island monkeys with a passion. :P |
| 01:50.44 | Lopeppeppy | For serious, WobWork. |
| 01:50.45 | Iriel | One is an atomic time scale, and one is earth-relative |
| 01:50.49 | Lopeppeppy | Don't step on Karen. |
| 01:50.54 | mikma | BOUNCING TITS! |
| 01:50.58 | Legorol | Iriel: i know, but for practical purposes, they don't differ by a significant amount |
| 01:51.05 | Legorol | for example, for scheduling real life events, they are close enough |
| 01:51.08 | WobWork | Thank you Jassa |
| 01:51.08 | Lopeppeppy | mikma, that's unhealthy in a grown male |
| 01:51.10 | bleeter | BOOBIES http://users.on.net/~bleeter/boobies.jpg |
| 01:51.12 | Gnarfoz | WET ftw |
| 01:51.13 | Legorol | however, the use of GMT does give rise to confusion all the time |
| 01:51.22 | Gnarfoz | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_European_Time < |
| 01:51.33 | mikma | http://images.vunet.org/Bouncing_Tits.gif |
| 01:51.42 | Legorol | so much so that I had to go as far as to correct Blizzies on the EU forums when they incorrectly referred to something as GMT+1 when it should've been +2 |
| 01:52.15 | mikma | lopeppeppy: hey hey heyheyhey, bouncing tits ftw |
| 01:52.16 | Lopeppeppy | Very unhealthy. One looks dead. |
| 01:52.19 | Gnarfoz | every time you say GMT you're discriminating against... well, Portugal basically |
| 01:52.22 | Gnarfoz | :D |
| 01:52.23 | Tekkub | the long and the short of it is, all this time crap is bupkiss, we should just use a single time across the world |
| 01:52.26 | Lopeppeppy | One looks dead, mikma. Unhealthy. |
| 01:52.32 | kd3 | whee. I now have a bnet account instead of a wow account |
| 01:52.32 | Lopeppeppy | Do you know the diseases birds carry? Eeeew. |
| 01:52.42 | Tekkub | and it should never ever change |
| 01:52.45 | mikma | lopeppeppy: the right one is giving him cpr |
| 01:52.50 | bleeter | kd3: you won't get no penguin tho, afaik :( |
| 01:52.52 | kd3 | Tekkub, didn't the ussr try that for a while? didn't it fail miserably? |
| 01:52.53 | Lopeppeppy | Burds do not do CPR. |
| 01:52.54 | MentalPower | kd3: how come? |
| 01:53.01 | bleeter | kd3: we got shafted on the cheap pixels |
| 01:53.03 | kd3 | https://us.battle.net/account/ |
| 01:53.05 | kd3 | see for yourself |
| 01:53.08 | Legorol | Tekkub: i agree. Then it won't look too strange anymore when I tell someone I woke up at 4pm, and staid up until 12pm. |
| 01:53.10 | Tekkub | aka "internet time" |
| 01:53.11 | kd3 | bleeter, boo |
| 01:53.29 | bleeter | kd3: boo indeed. i'm trying to work out if I need to nerd rage, or coffee |
| 01:53.37 | Tekkub | the failing was that they tried to redefine the time intervals, instead of just saying "we all use UTC now" |
| 01:53.43 | Gnarfoz | kd3: wtb that in European-ish-thingy... |
| 01:53.51 | MentalPower | kd3: IC |
| 01:54.08 | Legorol | Tekkub: i disagree slightly, I do't think people will soon get rid of the habit of using local time |
| 01:54.21 | Legorol | people are used to "normal" waking hours |
| 01:54.23 | Iriel | Daylight savings should die |
| 01:54.28 | mikma | kd3: "all accounts" ? |
| 01:54.30 | Tekkub | no, most people are too stupid to adjust to different time numbers |
| 01:54.30 | Iriel | but local time has its merits |
| 01:54.41 | Tekkub | fuck they can't even do 24-hr time |
| 01:55.02 | WobWork | heheh http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJqoRaphiEk |
| 01:55.26 | bleeter | kd3: I guess it'll mean I'll have to test that issue again sooner rather than later ;) |
| 01:56.51 | Gnarfoz | Tekkub: fucking imperialists. |
| 01:57.37 | ScytheBlade1 | ................................... |
| 01:57.40 | mikma | kd3: really, whats the idea in the bnet login? |
| 01:57.43 | Lopeppeppy | Gnarfoz, do you find that fun? |
| 01:57.50 | ScytheBlade1 | My (online) math teacher had an assignment due over spring break |
| 01:57.53 | ScytheBlade1 | .......................................................... |
| 01:57.57 | kd3 | getting things ready for sc2 so we only have to remember one account instead of 38 |
| 01:58.10 | mikma | d3 too? |
| 01:58.10 | Gnarfoz | Lopeppeppy: what, exactly? |
| 01:58.22 | Lopeppeppy | Nothing, nothing, tra la la. |
| 01:58.26 | Iriel | kd3: 38? |
| 01:58.29 | Lopeppeppy | I'm going to bed now ScytheBlade1 ! |
| 01:58.32 | *** part/#wowuidev Lopeppeppy (n=Lopeppep@cpe-69-204-134-64.nycap.res.rr.com) |
| 01:58.34 | ScytheBlade1 | yay-- |
| 01:58.35 | ScytheBlade1 | .. |
| 01:59.05 | kd3 | yay, my addons carried over |
| 01:59.45 | mikma | so we can convert wow account in battle.net account? |
| 01:59.50 | kd3 | yes |
| 01:59.53 | kd3 | if you're in the US |
| 01:59.53 | Gnarfoz | poking fun at a country that has been trying to get "metrification" rolling for 20+ years? certainly fun :> |
| 01:59.55 | mikma | or do we need to create one first |
| 02:00.02 | mikma | kd3: same works in eu too |
| 02:00.03 | kd3 | you've gotta create one first |
| 02:00.23 | mikma | https://eu.battle.net/account/ |
| 02:03.36 | Jamash | do we get anything for merging accounts? |
| 02:03.49 | ScytheBlade1 | A unified login |
| 02:03.56 | kd3 | neg, was hoping they were going to do the penguin small pet like they did in alpha/beta, but nope |
| 02:03.57 | ScytheBlade1 | And according to the bit you agreed to when you upgraded to wrath |
| 02:04.09 | ScytheBlade1 | Doing it before they force it upon you |
| 02:04.13 | kd3 | ^ |
| 02:04.28 | MentalPower | it will be forced eventually |
| 02:04.32 | Jamash | I think I'll wait until there is a clear advantage to doing so / they force it |
| 02:04.54 | ScytheBlade1 | You know that even if you link multiple accounts in, you can still paly them concurrently, right? |
| 02:04.56 | Gnarfoz | no money to put |
| 02:05.01 | Gnarfoz | WotLK account upgrade made it mandatory |
| 02:05.07 | ScytheBlade1 | MentalPower: I'd totally agree |
| 02:05.24 | Jamash | probably |
| 02:05.43 | MentalPower | ScytheBlade1: aye, you can, its in the FAQ |
| 02:05.45 | Jamash | I hardly play anything on bnet right now |
| 02:05.47 | ScytheBlade1 | no, totally did. I remember reading it. It WILL be mandatory "soon" |
| 02:06.09 | Jamash | basically I play D2 when I want some phat loots but don't feel like logging in to wow |
| 02:06.22 | ScytheBlade1 | Jamash: classic b.net accounts (USWest/East/Asia/Europe/etc/etc/etc/) are NOT linked in with this b.net account |
| 02:06.30 | WobWork | I haven't had a legal copy of D2 in a long time |
| 02:06.45 | kd3 | whee. 158/160 cooking. now to get dig rat stew and level cooking to 450 so I can learn fish feast |
| 02:07.01 | Jamash | I bought a D2/LOD account key online for $5 |
| 02:07.19 | ScytheBlade1 | Jamash: currently all that these new accounts are good for, would be storing keys for blizzard games you own, providing online download of said games, and linking in WoW accounts |
| 02:07.22 | WobWork | kd3: digrat stew still allows that?! |
| 02:08.03 | kd3 | the recipe isn't bop, or if it got changed I'll just have to wait til 3.1 to buy it for myself |
| 02:08.14 | Jamash | seems to me that using an email addy for login is less secure |
| 02:08.57 | Jamash | nobody but me and my sister know my wow account name, whereas my email is all over the place |
| 02:09.31 | MentalPower | quick linux question, nice levels, the bigger the number the more proc allocated or is it inverse? |
| 02:09.39 | kd3 | ^ |
| 02:09.51 | ScytheBlade1 | MentalPower: negative levels have more priority |
| 02:10.03 | Jamash | greater niceness means less processor time |
| 02:10.08 | kd3 | they're 'less nice' to other proccesses |
| 02:10.21 | Jamash | I remember X used to run at -19 |
| 02:10.59 | Jamash | they keep rejiggering the scheduler |
| 02:11.44 | mikma | rofl |
| 02:12.05 | mikma | i think i created an account to bnet when i ordered the authenticators |
| 02:12.16 | kd3 | you did |
| 02:12.25 | kd3 | the blizzard account you created then is now called a bnet account |
| 02:12.44 | sacarasc | Coming Soon! |
| 02:12.44 | sacarasc | The World of Warcraft account merge process is not yet available in your region. |
| 02:12.49 | sacarasc | Yay Europe! |
| 02:13.15 | *** join/#wowuidev sioraioc_ (n=sioraioc@78-86-82-152.zone2.bethere.co.uk) |
| 02:13.52 | Jamash | pshaw, nobody lives in europe |
| 02:13.53 | Gnarfoz | yay blizzard actually, but that's what you meant :p |
| 02:13.56 | *** join/#wowuidev sioraiocht (n=sioraioc@78-86-82-152.zone2.bethere.co.uk) |
| 02:14.35 | ScytheBlade1 | What really interests me is this new 'mobile authenticator' |
| 02:14.45 | Gnarfoz | it's the Blizzard AUthenticator. |
| 02:14.56 | ScytheBlade1 | Which suggests to me that someone will be able to reverse engineer the app which means I can get one that runs anywhere :P |
| 02:15.02 | Gnarfoz | ? |
| 02:15.13 | Gnarfoz | it's the same thing as before, just renamed :( |
| 02:15.16 | kd3 | mobile meaning 'cell phone' |
| 02:15.17 | mikma | my friend cant wait that moment =) |
| 02:15.21 | ScytheBlade1 | nope |
| 02:15.23 | ScytheBlade1 | yup @ kd3 |
| 02:15.26 | Jamash | you think they mean cell phone authenticator, SB1? |
| 02:15.26 | Gnarfoz | what. |
| 02:15.28 | Jamash | ah |
| 02:15.33 | ScytheBlade1 | https://www.battle.net/account/management/add-authenticator.xml?authType=MA |
| 02:15.36 | Jamash | sounds like a bad idea to me |
| 02:15.39 | mikma | and yeah, cant convert wow-account yet |
| 02:15.44 | ScytheBlade1 | http://us.blizzard.com/support/article.xml?articleId=26109 |
| 02:15.48 | Gnarfoz | I noted that a week ago or so, in 3.1 the popup during login that is currently Blizzard Authenticator |
| 02:16.01 | Gnarfoz | now has "battle.net mobile authenticator" as its title |
| 02:16.06 | Gnarfoz | so either somebody fucked up |
| 02:16.11 | Gnarfoz | or! |
| 02:16.41 | ScytheBlade1 | All I really care about |
| 02:16.42 | ScytheBlade1 | Will this application work with an iPod touch? |
| 02:16.43 | ScytheBlade1 | Yes. |
| 02:16.55 | Gnarfoz | first link leads to: The requested URL /account/management/;jsessionid=AB1A86F8688E1612BFF91E488C2C7F15.app10_06 was not found on this server. :D |
| 02:16.58 | ScytheBlade1 | Which means that people can *easily* get at the program and peek and poke |
| 02:17.24 | NeoTron | a mobile authenticator will be less secure |
| 02:17.29 | Jamash | much less secure |
| 02:17.35 | Jamash | much, much less secure |
| 02:17.40 | NeoTron | hopefully the algorithms or whatever arae different |
| 02:17.42 | ScytheBlade1 | And yet somehow, people get by without an authenticator at all! |
| 02:17.46 | Gnarfoz | http://eu.blizzard.com/support/article.xml?articleId=35547 < leads nowhere, either (that's the link from acc management) |
| 02:17.58 | Jamash | if by "get by" you mean "have their accounts hacked on a regular basis" then yes |
| 02:18.07 | ScytheBlade1 | Yup. Right here. Hacked all the time. |
| 02:18.09 | ScytheBlade1 | (Wait. No.) |
| 02:18.10 | kd3 | the algos are different. blizz authenticators have 6 digits, mobile auths have 8 |
| 02:18.16 | Jamash | that's good |
| 02:18.45 | Gnarfoz | so, anywhere to read about this new authenticator that usurps my login boxes? :p |
| 02:18.52 | ScytheBlade1 | http://us.blizzard.com/support/article.xml?articleId=26109 |
| 02:18.56 | Gnarfoz | again, 404. |
| 02:18.58 | NeoTron | authenticator is a good thing when you're a GM and/or have full guild bank access |
| 02:19.13 | kd3 | force it to view in the us locale, not eu |
| 02:19.14 | Gnarfoz | actually, works this time? |
| 02:19.16 | Gnarfoz | wtf :> |
| 02:19.18 | ScytheBlade1 | http://12.129.242.31/support/article.xml?articleId=26109 |
| 02:19.28 | Gnarfoz | kd3: I'm, not forcing it to do EU anyway? :p |
| 02:19.30 | Jamash | yeah, our guild leader got hacked once before he got an authenticator |
| 02:20.11 | ScytheBlade1 | Gnarfoz: thank you. |
| 02:20.19 | sacarasc | With an axe, of course. |
| 02:20.28 | Jamash | s/hacked/his account compromised by a nefarious party/ |
| 02:20.29 | NeoTron | Gnarfoz: I gave that battle up a long time ago. :( |
| 02:20.37 | Adys | with a hacksaw ! |
| 02:20.38 | Gnarfoz | ;D |
| 02:20.39 | Adys | ~rimshot |
| 02:20.40 | purl | ba-dum CHH |
| 02:20.45 | Gnarfoz | Jamash: well saved ;) |
| 02:20.51 | Gnarfoz | www.instantrimshot.com |
| 02:21.00 | Adys | Gnarfoz: I got that bookmarked |
| 02:21.02 | Adys | I use it on TS |
| 02:21.03 | MentalPower | Jamash: we had three such incidents, with two people |
| 02:21.16 | Gnarfoz | Adys: right next to www.sadtrombone.com I hope? |
| 02:21.34 | Adys | not really |
| 02:21.39 | Gnarfoz | :( |
| 02:22.13 | Adys | http://google-latlong.blogspot.com/2009/03/mapping-madness-returns.html |
| 02:22.14 | Adys | they fixed it |
| 02:22.53 | bleeter | question: (yeah, it's been ...a while... since I installed it... ;) there's no CD key for D1? |
| 02:23.02 | Lukian | don't believe so |
| 02:23.22 | Jamash | diablo I has the second best music of any computer game |
| 02:23.29 | bleeter | kk just wanted to be sure for the battle.net thingie, thx Lukian :) |
| 02:23.30 | Adys | WRONG |
| 02:23.32 | Adys | EoC does |
| 02:23.44 | Jamash | EoC? |
| 02:23.50 | bleeter | ppffft docking sequence in elite |
| 02:23.58 | Gnarfoz | elite+ :O |
| 02:23.59 | WobWork | Ege uf Conen (NZ edition) |
| 02:24.00 | Iriel | bleeter: 8-) |
| 02:24.08 | Jamash | eye of conan? |
| 02:24.08 | Adys | edge of chaos |
| 02:24.16 | Jamash | haven't played that |
| 02:24.24 | Adys | because you're awful |
| 02:24.55 | Adys | the game that inspired eve online |
| 02:25.01 | *** join/#wowuidev keias (n=bleh@pool-72-86-106-233.aubnin.fios.verizon.net) |
| 02:25.02 | *** join/#wowuidev Larana (n=Anaral@WoWUIDev/Norganna/QA-Manager/Anaral) |
| 02:25.02 | Jamash | ooo |
| 02:25.08 | Adys | SEE |
| 02:25.09 | NeoTron | it's a bit annoying that you can't use a mobile authenticator and a normal one at the same time too |
| 02:25.25 | NeoTron | I want to log into my account away from home sometimes and it'd be nice to be able to but no such luck |
| 02:25.31 | Jamash | I want an authenticator that fits in my pcmcia or usb ports |
| 02:25.52 | bleeter | I'd just like an authenticator that actually is a one time password |
| 02:25.55 | Iriel | Jamash: there's one out there that does that (Not a blizz one tho) |
| 02:26.01 | Adys | bleeter: defeats the point |
| 02:26.03 | bleeter | (for blizz product) |
| 02:26.04 | Adys | kinda |
| 02:26.14 | Iriel | Jamash: the nice thing it does is that it registers itself as a keyboard, so you hit the button and it TYPES the code |
| 02:26.19 | Jamash | cute |
| 02:26.31 | mikma | <0423> <WobWork> Ege uf Conen (NZ edition) |
| 02:26.36 | mikma | hahahahaaa |
| 02:30.01 | Jamash | having to type my authenticator code to log in to the forums makes me sad |
| 02:30.49 | WobWork | Such is the cost of security |
| 02:31.37 | Legorol | what would be wrong with doing away with the password entirely and only using the authenticator? |
| 02:31.41 | Legorol | am i missing something? |
| 02:31.52 | ScytheBlade1 | Then it wouldn't be two-factor auth |
| 02:31.58 | Jamash | two-factor auth... beat'd |
| 02:32.04 | *** join/#wowuidev Dashkal (n=dashkal@WoWUIDev/Nexus/dashkal) |
| 02:32.13 | Legorol | i'm an ignoramus, you will have to explain that one to me :) |
| 02:32.20 | Adys | Jamash |
| 02:32.21 | ScytheBlade1 | !g two-factor authentication |
| 02:32.22 | batbot | ScytheBlade1: Two-factor authentication - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-factor_authentication> |
| 02:32.25 | Legorol | is it "two-factor" because it requires two pieces of info? |
| 02:32.31 | Adys | devcub.com/~adys/a1_discovery.mp3 |
| 02:32.33 | Legorol | k, i'll go read |
| 02:32.35 | Adys | devcub.com/~adys/a2_theme.mp3 |
| 02:32.47 | Adys | a couple of the eoc musics |
| 02:33.15 | Adys | there's a lot of em |
| 02:33.31 | Legorol | does the presence of a password in addition to the authenticator confer significant additional security? |
| 02:33.32 | bleeter | Iriel: though I do have to say, when I first actually *heard* the docking sequence music I thought it was blasphemic gamebreaking crap ;) |
| 02:33.44 | WobWork | Legorol: It adds another level, certainly |
| 02:34.01 | Legorol | i understand that, but does it add enough to warrant the overhead? |
| 02:34.14 | WobWork | overhead of what? |
| 02:34.14 | ScytheBlade1 | The answer to that would be yes |
| 02:34.18 | bleeter | only if it isn't cake to remove said authenticator |
| 02:34.18 | Jamash | two factor works this way: let's say your password is logged. you're still OK, they don't have the authenticator |
| 02:34.35 | Jamash | Let's say your authenticator is stolen. You're still OK, they don't have the password. |
| 02:34.47 | Legorol | Jamash: i understand that, but i'm advocating the removal of the password, not the authenticator |
| 02:34.54 | Legorol | it's a lot harder to steal your authenticator imo |
| 02:34.56 | *** part/#wowuidev Iriel (n=Iriel@71.158.244.138) |
| 02:35.01 | WobWork | but not impossible |
| 02:35.08 | Adys | Legorol: no its not lol |
| 02:35.12 | *** join/#wowuidev Iriel (n=Iriel@71.158.244.138) |
| 02:35.12 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o Iriel] by ChanServ |
| 02:35.22 | Legorol | Adys: you'd have to know the associated account |
| 02:35.23 | ScytheBlade1 | bleeter: you know that a 1 minute timeframe is still infinitely more secure than essentially a static password |
| 02:35.23 | kd3 | I'm not. the 'something you know' + 'something you have' combination is decently more secure than just one or the other |
| 02:35.26 | WobWork | Legorol: There -is- no 'overhead' involved |
| 02:35.30 | Adys | Legorol: send me your config.wtf? :P |
| 02:35.50 | WobWork | It's merely security |
| 02:36.00 | Jamash | consider the whole deal a two-part password, one half static and one half dynamic |
| 02:36.03 | WobWork | what do you wish to pay for your security |
| 02:36.05 | Adys | In years of using the same password for dozens and dozens of websites ive never had my acc compromised |
| 02:36.10 | Legorol | Adys: if you can break into my place, steal my authenticator and read my config.wtf off my computer, i have lot bigger things to be concerned about than my WoW account |
| 02:36.21 | WobWork | Legorol: I dunno, it'd be Adys =P |
| 02:36.23 | Adys | but god knows how many keys ive lost |
| 02:36.31 | WobWork | He might just want to shard your purples =) |
| 02:36.32 | Adys | and thats what an auth is |
| 02:36.32 | Legorol | guys, i'm not disputing that two-factor is more secure |
| 02:36.46 | Legorol | i'm just saying it's not significantly more secure |
| 02:36.50 | kd3 | <3s having his auth clipped to a belt loop whenever he's not at his desk |
| 02:36.54 | Iriel | I think you're mistaken there lego |
| 02:36.56 | Adys | yeah didnt say it was more secure or anything |
| 02:37.01 | Legorol | imo physical security (having to steal your authenticator) is a pretty strong protection |
| 02:37.03 | Iriel | I think it's considered (by the industry) to be /significantly/ more secure |
| 02:37.03 | bleeter | another thing that gets me, is that a simple hash on the account name would defeat most 'i just saw your account name' glances at the file directory structure |
| 02:37.07 | Adys | but I really, really dont want my password removed in favour of an auth |
| 02:37.14 | kd3 | ^ |
| 02:37.42 | Adys | I'm used to typing my password I dont want to screw around with something more physical than a keyboard when I want to log on |
| 02:37.53 | Jamash | what if you leave your authenticator on your desk and someone you know uses it to log in? |
| 02:38.06 | WobWork | (and shards your purples) |
| 02:38.12 | Jamash | and shards your purples? |
| 02:38.15 | bleeter | not teh perpz!!! |
| 02:38.27 | Sixen | yes, t3h purpz |
| 02:38.30 | WobWork | Jamash: Just don't let the cat into the room =) |
| 02:38.31 | Legorol | jamash: i generally don't let people into my house that would shard my purplez |
| 02:38.33 | Sixen | dey haz ben sharded |
| 02:38.42 | Jamash | :-O |
| 02:38.43 | Sixen | Kinky. |
| 02:38.48 | Adys | Jamash: stop paranoïng and check http://devcub.com/~adys/a2_theme.mp3 |
| 02:38.48 | Sixen | =] |
| 02:38.57 | Sixen | So, I had Orientation the other day. I'm going to ASU. whee! |
| 02:39.01 | Legorol | and as i said before, if there is a malicious entity in my house, i have a lot more to worry about than my wow account |
| 02:39.15 | ScytheBlade1 | Sixen: Arizon? |
| 02:39.18 | Sixen | Yessir! |
| 02:39.21 | Adys | Legorol: I'm sorry to hear about your ex |
| 02:39.21 | Adys | :P |
| 02:39.22 | ScytheBlade1 | +a |
| 02:39.28 | Legorol | Adys: what? |
| 02:39.30 | NeoTron | Adys: it doesn't remove your password, it's an additional code |
| 02:39.38 | Adys | Legorol: just a simple example |
| 02:39.41 | Adys | i know NeoTron |
| 02:39.51 | Legorol | sorry i don't get the example :( |
| 02:39.55 | Legorol | i know i'm slow, but please spell it out |
| 02:40.12 | ScytheBlade1 | Sixen: It is... a 6 hour drive for me to get there! |
| 02:40.17 | NeoTron | that said I know I most likely won't have my account cracked but this does add another level of safety which I feel is worth the pain |
| 02:40.17 | Sixen | Come visit. |
| 02:40.20 | Adys | what I meant is, you can perfectly have people close to you who'd be able to log on |
| 02:40.20 | Sixen | Where do you live? Like CA? |
| 02:40.23 | kd3 | gah, they changed the forums css again |
| 02:40.24 | bleeter | Sixen: what's ASU? |
| 02:40.25 | ScytheBlade1 | Pay for gas |
| 02:40.36 | Sixen | bleet: Arizona State University |
| 02:40.36 | ScytheBlade1 | Sixen: nah, straight north. Almost exactly straight north |
| 02:40.38 | Adys | and yeah sure you can "worry about other things" |
| 02:40.41 | Adys | but that does not matter |
| 02:40.42 | Sixen | sbo: Done ;). oic. |
| 02:40.47 | Adys | an authenticator is a physical entity |
| 02:40.51 | bleeter | Sixen: ah, grats mate :) |
| 02:40.51 | NightHawkTheSane | AWESOME: http://blog.clickablebliss.com/2007/06/30/universal-megamaneffect/ |
| 02:40.54 | Sixen | Thankies, =) |
| 02:40.54 | Adys | a password is in my head, has been for years |
| 02:41.02 | Adys | I cant lose it, forget it, break it, get it stolen |
| 02:41.06 | Legorol | look, i'm not disputing your right to have both of them |
| 02:41.13 | Adys | I dont want both |
| 02:41.16 | Adys | I just want my pw |
| 02:41.19 | Legorol | or to choose which one ;) |
| 02:41.21 | Sixen | So don't get an Authenticator, o_O |
| 02:41.26 | Legorol | adys i wasn't advocating auth over pw |
| 02:41.39 | Adys | [04:34:47] <+Legorol> Jamash: i understand that, but i'm advocating the removal of the password, not the authenticator |
| 02:41.44 | Legorol | i was saying that imo the combination of auth+pw doesn't confer significantly more protection than just aut |
| 02:41.56 | Sixen | Poor Adys, can't play anymore. |
| 02:41.57 | Legorol | adys: sorry i misphrased that slightly |
| 02:41.59 | *** join/#wowuidev digmouse (n=chatzill@222.240.182.154) |
| 02:42.03 | Adys | right |
| 02:42.04 | Legorol | i was comparing auth+pw vs. auth only scenario |
| 02:42.14 | Sixen | Hehe. Brb like 20. I promise, I won't go afk for a few weeks again. |
| 02:42.15 | Tekkub | depends on if you have people that have access to your authenticator |
| 02:42.18 | Legorol | i wasn't advocating the mandatory change of pw to auth |
| 02:42.20 | ScytheBlade1 | Sixen: lol |
| 02:42.22 | Sixen | :P |
| 02:42.26 | Tekkub | perhaps you have a kid and don't want him in YOUR account |
| 02:42.26 | Adys | fine with me then |
| 02:42.31 | Adys | ALSO |
| 02:42.32 | Adys | http://devcub.com/~adys/a2_theme.mp3 |
| 02:42.46 | Jamash | that's pretty good |
| 02:43.15 | Adys | they got a bunch of musics for each act (3 acts) |
| 02:43.41 | Jamash | the thing about game music is it not only has its own value as art but it picks up the emotional memories of playing the game while listening to it |
| 02:44.05 | Iriel | Legorol: I think the 'auth only' versus 'pw only' is that the increase in security is incremental (Good against 'harvesting', poor against 'loss/theft') |
| 02:44.11 | Adys | Jamash: idd |
| 02:44.28 | Iriel | so the extra investment in hardware and infrastructure for auth only isn't worthwhile |
| 02:44.41 | Jamash | so listening to that I think "that's some pretty good game music" but when I think of Diablo I music I think "oh yeah that one time I popped like a billion goat men full of arrows" |
| 02:44.48 | Legorol | Iriel, i guess that depends on which one you think is the bigger threat for you |
| 02:44.50 | Iriel | (since the cost of supporting the infrastructure and the process increases as well) |
| 02:45.00 | Legorol | i will withdraw my argument and agree that having both is significantly stronger |
| 02:45.00 | Adys | OOO |
| 02:45.02 | Adys | found it ! |
| 02:45.16 | Iriel | Legorol: You're not the one who has to pay reps to help people who dropped their authenticator down the toilet |
| 02:45.27 | Legorol | for me personally, having my password harvested is a lot bigger threat than loss/theft, so if i had to choose one or the other, i'd pick auth |
| 02:45.30 | kd3 | hmm. gotta use my auth key to log in to the forums now |
| 02:45.34 | Adys | Jamash: http://devcub.com/~adys/a1_theme.mp3 |
| 02:45.36 | Legorol | Iriel: indeed |
| 02:45.39 | kd3 | trying to decide 'great!' or 'annoying' |
| 02:45.40 | Adys | check this one out, pretty amazing too |
| 02:45.48 | Iriel | Any of us who use SSH keys to do loginless sign in have picked an 'auth only' approach over a password |
| 02:45.58 | Iriel | And in many cases it is better, and we understand the risks |
| 02:46.15 | Jamash | but you can put a passkey on your ssh key |
| 02:46.25 | Legorol | which makes it annoying to use :) imo |
| 02:46.26 | Iriel | Yes, thats why I said 'who do loginless' |
| 02:46.28 | kd3 | likely cause there's layers of security before getting to the point where we can use ssh |
| 02:46.31 | kd3 | >.> |
| 02:46.52 | Legorol | right, so i'm satisfied |
| 02:47.03 | Legorol | the auth only ssh is a good example of what i was trying to say |
| 02:47.10 | Iriel | There's one other advantage to two factor |
| 02:47.13 | Jamash | I use a laptop so I have the concern that my entire computer could be stolen |
| 02:47.13 | Iriel | An important one |
| 02:47.16 | Tekkub | <3 ssh key auth |
| 02:47.21 | ScytheBlade1 | ^ |
| 02:47.23 | Legorol | i'd be happy with transferring the risk from typing on the keyboard to a physical medium, for me that's a significant increase in security |
| 02:47.26 | Iriel | fi someone broke the algorithm that blizz use (Unlikely, but possible) |
| 02:47.33 | Iriel | without a password, EVERY account would be vulnerable |
| 02:48.04 | Tekkub | they'd need your token's seed number though |
| 02:48.06 | Legorol | Iriel: isn't the algorithm one of the industry standard ones? so it'd be well known |
| 02:48.08 | ScytheBlade1 | All of this 'authenticator' stuff is fluff =] |
| 02:48.17 | Tekkub | unless they broke it to the point they could determine that |
| 02:48.31 | Iriel | Legorol: we'd hope so, but we dont know |
| 02:48.31 | Tekkub | but then they could probably go after bigger fish like ssl |
| 02:48.33 | Jamash | ScytheBlade1: You have a direct hardline to blizzard HQ? |
| 02:48.59 | Legorol | anyway, personally i'm just sticking with the worst option: using a pw |
| 02:49.03 | ScytheBlade1 | Jamash: no. I know a few employees and if I REALLY cared could probably get e-mails pretty easily, but no |
| 02:49.12 | Iriel | remember that one of the use cases for the authenticator is SHARED COMPUTERS |
| 02:49.15 | Jamash | someone cracked the itunes gift card algorithm |
| 02:49.18 | Iriel | so things like ssl keys dont work |
| 02:49.22 | Legorol | i'm not bothering buying an authenticator, because for me (personally) my WoW account isn't such a huge asset that i feel i need significant protection on it |
| 02:49.45 | Jamash | I read somewhere that stolen wow accounts are worth more than stolen credit card accounts |
| 02:49.49 | Iriel | you want the 'key' in a physically distinct item than the client you're entering the "password" into |
| 02:49.51 | Jamash | dunno if that's true |
| 02:49.54 | Tekkub | Iriel, it doesn't have to be the *only* means of auth |
| 02:50.05 | Tekkub | SSH will fall back to passwords usually |
| 02:50.09 | Tekkub | wow could do the same |
| 02:50.09 | Legorol | Jamash: prolly depends on what's on the account |
| 02:50.11 | Wraithan | Same, worst case senario someone jacks my account, shards and sells my crap, then I call blizz and they fix it |
| 02:50.14 | ScytheBlade1 | Legorol: that's the trick. It is worth FAR more than the $6.50 an authenticator in terms of cost.... to blizzard |
| 02:50.33 | ScytheBlade1 | s/ an/ for an/ |
| 02:50.58 | Tekkub | hell wow could do key auth at home and one-time-use passwords for untrusted computers |
| 02:51.03 | ScytheBlade1 | I'm pretty sure that if they could ship their entire playerbase one, they would. And then these 10-14 day ticket queues would drop down to 1-2 days max. |
| 02:51.10 | Legorol | ScytheBlade1: i'm a bit confused. The $6.50 is a cost incurred by me, how is that related to costs incurred by Blizz? |
| 02:51.26 | ScytheBlade1 | Legorol: manpower, time, effort, customer complaints in terms of queue length to recover accounts. |
| 02:51.34 | Legorol | sorry that's not what i mean |
| 02:51.35 | Tekkub | I'm sure the keys are cheaper than paying support staff, yes |
| 02:51.43 | Tekkub | it's a matter of manufracturing |
| 02:51.45 | Jamash | I am of the opinion that they should put an authenticator in the box |
| 02:51.48 | Legorol | you were comparing what i have to pay for an auth to... what it costs blizzard if i don't have one? |
| 02:51.57 | Dagmar | Tekkub: For most purposes the authenticator is a OTP. Getting people to use an OTP system WITHOUT some sort of hard token would be nearly impractical judging from the dim bulbs that are the common denominator on the user base |
| 02:51.58 | Legorol | i'm confused over the two things you are comparing |
| 02:51.58 | ScytheBlade1 | Yes. Which is why it exists. |
| 02:52.27 | Legorol | i'm confused about the point of comparing my costs to blizzard's costs, we have different aims |
| 02:52.36 | Tekkub | Dagmar, yea I doubt they would do any better at protecting a keypair than they do at protecting their password :P |
| 02:52.39 | Legorol | and... why doesn't blizz give them for free to me then? |
| 02:52.46 | Jamash | good question |
| 02:52.46 | Dagmar | Leogoro: There's also a matter of how much your time is worth. |
| 02:53.01 | Tekkub | go to blizzcon and they will? |
| 02:53.06 | MentalPower | Legorol: they do, blizzcon |
| 02:53.09 | Dagmar | If you have to spend an hour talking with customer support to get your account back under control, the authenticator is suddenly suprisingly cheap |
| 02:53.11 | Jamash | part of blizzcon ticket != free |
| 02:53.14 | Legorol | i'm still confused |
| 02:53.15 | MentalPower | that's how I got mine |
| 02:53.20 | Legorol | i don't *want* an authenticator |
| 02:53.22 | Tekkub | seriously, if they could just buy x million tokens and sell it with the expansion, they would have |
| 02:53.28 | Jamash | they should have |
| 02:53.33 | Tekkub | even if they had to up the price $5 |
| 02:53.35 | Jamash | imo |
| 02:53.44 | Wraithan | I'd opt out if possible |
| 02:54.00 | Jamash | your two-factor overlords demand compliance! |
| 02:54.01 | Wraithan | fuck keeping track of something my girlfriend's daughter could snag and lose. |
| 02:54.17 | Tekkub | Wraithan, it's not hard to tie it down |
| 02:54.27 | Jamash | Wraithan: have it implanted in your arm. |
| 02:54.27 | Wraithan | Tekkub: you got kids? |
| 02:54.37 | Tekkub | then she can go flush your car keys instead when you're being a total dick |
| 02:54.39 | MentalPower | Wraithan: or flush down the toilet :) |
| 02:54.43 | Wraithan | They have amazing abilities of removing what shouldn't have been removed. |
| 02:54.47 | Tekkub | you think I'm that stupid? |
| 02:54.50 | Legorol | ScytheBlade1, i'm still confused over this one: <ScytheBlade1> Legorol: that's the trick. It is worth FAR more than the $6.50 an authenticator in terms of cost.... to blizzard |
| 02:54.57 | Jamash | I had my auth on my keyring for a while |
| 02:55.00 | Dagmar | Wraithan: Good thing your slapping hand has a lot of stamina then, isn't it? |
| 02:55.03 | Legorol | what is worth far more? my account? |
| 02:55.14 | Legorol | i still don't get what the item was whose costs you were comparing |
| 02:55.20 | Iriel | If blizzard knew who WOULD get their accounts stolen, sending THOSE people authenticators would be a no-brainer |
| 02:55.23 | MentalPower | Legorol: he means its cheaper for them if everyone would use one |
| 02:55.34 | Iriel | I'm sure blizzard have done the math and determined that it's not (yet) worth just giving them away |
| 02:55.43 | Dagmar | I suspect Blizzard is either making zero profit on the tokens, or they're partially subsidizing them |
| 02:55.47 | MentalPower | since it would lower support costs |
| 02:55.51 | Dagmar | Probably subsidized |
| 02:55.53 | Tekkub | I still think it's a matter of manufacturing |
| 02:55.55 | ScytheBlade1 | Legorol: the time investment on blizzard's end, and the money it takes for them to pay support staff to rectify account compromises. $6.50 <<<<<<<< said costs. |
| 02:56.01 | MentalPower | Dagmar: they're not that expensive to produce TBH |
| 02:56.12 | Dagmar | MentalPower: yeah, but the licence from RSA is another matter. |
| 02:56.13 | ScytheBlade1 | (I have no hard numbers or facts to back me up. But seriously, it kind of is a no-brainer.) |
| 02:56.14 | devZero | \q |
| 02:56.16 | Tekkub | they can't meet the demand of that many tokens or they would have added them to the expansion |
| 02:56.18 | Legorol | ScytheBlade1: you are comparing blizzard's cost with customer's cost. I don't see how that's a relevant comparison. |
| 02:56.19 | Iriel | The problem is, if one in say, 100 accounts, is compromised |
| 02:56.23 | Iriel | on average |
| 02:56.30 | ScytheBlade1 | Legorol: which is why I said "to blizzard" on the end. |
| 02:56.34 | ScytheBlade1 | Legorol: which was my point. |
| 02:56.36 | MentalPower | Dagmar: I don't think the blizz ones use RSA (I could be mistakened) |
| 02:56.39 | Jamash | they should also include a copy of firefox on the disc |
| 02:56.41 | Iriel | then it's only worth it if the cost of one recovery exeeds $650 |
| 02:56.44 | MentalPower | at least mine doesn't say RSA anywhere |
| 02:56.49 | Iriel | Yeah the blizz ones arent RSA |
| 02:56.55 | Iriel | they dont say it anywhere, and the RSA ones do |
| 02:56.56 | Dagmar | MentalPower: I'm really sure they're using RSA. It's just a branded SecureID token. |
| 02:56.58 | Iriel | I have a ocuple of those |
| 02:57.00 | Tekkub | assuming the token *cost* 6.50 to make |
| 02:57.07 | MentalPower | which my cable set top box does (and uses RSA) |
| 02:57.07 | Iriel | It is NOT a rebranded SecurID token |
| 02:57.09 | kd3 | they're using vasco tokens |
| 02:57.12 | kd3 | vasco != rsa |
| 02:57.17 | Legorol | ScytheBlade1: ok, now i get it. In that case, I'd argue against it :) If $6.5 *was* cheaper than those costs, than they'd have done the math and shipped everyone a free one by now. |
| 02:57.26 | ScytheBlade1 | Legorol: no. |
| 02:57.31 | Tekkub | vasco makes me think "The Vasectomy Company" |
| 02:57.33 | Tekkub | I don't know why |
| 02:57.35 | Legorol | Hence the sum total of $6.5 * no. of accounts > support costs. |
| 02:57.41 | ScytheBlade1 | Legorol: that would only be the case if account compromises were FAR more common. |
| 02:57.52 | Jamash | judging from my guild they're pretty common |
| 02:57.53 | Legorol | then your comparison is flawed |
| 02:57.58 | Tekkub | but there's nothing that says they have to give the token FREE with the expansion |
| 02:58.01 | Jamash | much more than 1 in 100 common |
| 02:58.06 | Tekkub | add fucking $6.50 to the price |
| 02:58.08 | ScytheBlade1 | Legorol: but, then you have people who either (1) are proactive about their security, or (2) have no bloody clue what computer security is. |
| 02:58.11 | Tekkub | people *will* still pay it |
| 02:58.19 | Legorol | The proper comparison, to judge Blizzard's costs, it to say: $6.5 * no. of accounts vs. total support cost on currently compromised no. of accounts |
| 02:58.23 | Tekkub | they'll bitch a ton, but they'll do anything for their fix |
| 02:58.27 | Dagmar | Then I'll wager that Vasco is buying licences for RSA |
| 02:58.52 | Iriel | Dagmar: I have never seen a token with the RSA algorithm that doesn't list the RSA patents on it somewhere or with its documentation |
| 02:58.55 | Jamash | "I'm a product recall coordinator for a major car company..." |
| 02:58.59 | Iriel | Dagmar: the Vasco ones do not. |
| 02:59.27 | Iriel | Not to say they ARENT using RSA, just that it is exceptionlly unlikely |
| 02:59.28 | Dagmar | Trivial difference anyway |
| 03:00.01 | Dagmar | Anyone with some decent math skills could roll their own for this, once they understand the concepts. Avoiding a patent lawsuit would be harder |
| 03:00.20 | ScytheBlade1 | The Vasco keys support two algorithms. |
| 03:00.26 | Jamash | hulk smash software patents |
| 03:00.29 | ScytheBlade1 | 1) DIGIPASS, their own. 2) OATH |
| 03:00.30 | Legorol | anyhoo, am i the only non-paranoid person who wouldn't be upset if his wow account got stolen? |
| 03:00.35 | Legorol | and would just go out and buy a new one? |
| 03:00.39 | Jamash | Legorol: yes |
| 03:00.48 | *** join/#wowuidev Matrix110| (i=Matrix11@pD957BB45.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 03:00.53 | Legorol | i probably wouldn't even bother calling support |
| 03:00.54 | ScytheBlade1 | OATH is an open spec. No idea about DIGIPASS. |
| 03:01.12 | Jamash | Legorol: do you have any characters above, say, level 40? |
| 03:01.17 | Legorol | sure |
| 03:01.32 | Jamash | and you'd be willing to just let that go poof? |
| 03:01.36 | Legorol | They might be worth a lot to whoever steals my account, but they are not worth much to me. |
| 03:01.45 | Legorol | Jamash: i'd relevel |
| 03:01.53 | Iriel | Do you still actively play wow, with others? |
| 03:01.54 | Legorol | No big deal |
| 03:02.03 | Legorol | Yes I do Iriel, and that's the part that's worth it for me :) |
| 03:02.10 | Legorol | and that part wouldn't be gone with my account |
| 03:02.17 | Adys | Jamash ! |
| 03:02.20 | Adys | http://devcub.com/~adys/a1_theme.mp3 :( |
| 03:02.20 | Iriel | Wouldn't being unable to play the same content they were playing be a problem? |
| 03:02.34 | Legorol | it wouldn't be a problem for long |
| 03:02.48 | Legorol | releveling and reboosting doesn't take long |
| 03:02.58 | Jamash | Adys: I listened! It's good! |
| 03:03.08 | Legorol | the way end-game content is structured is that there is a slowdown in rate of progression at the highest end |
| 03:03.12 | Adys | good! |
| 03:03.19 | Adys | there are some others but Im too tired to upload them |
| 03:03.19 | Legorol | so it's fairly easy to catch up imo |
| 03:03.26 | Adys | also, edge of chaos is an AMAZING game |
| 03:03.31 | Adys | highly recommend checking it out |
| 03:03.53 | Adys | 2001 and still has some kickass graphics ... |
| 03:04.10 | Legorol | I hit level 80 two and a half months after my current guildmates started raiding Naxx. I'm currently waiting for Ulduar to release so we can go in there together. |
| 03:04.12 | Legorol | That's how it works. |
| 03:04.41 | Legorol | I'm not saying I would be totally emotionless, I'm just saying it wouldn't totally shock me. |
| 03:05.07 | Legorol | and if I see any signs that getting the account back via customer support is too bothersome, i probably wouldn't bother |
| 03:05.11 | ScytheBlade1 | ha, their polls about which phones their customers use suddenly makes a LOT more sense now. |
| 03:05.26 | Legorol | actually i just realise that i would, but for a reason entirely unrelated to the contents of the account |
| 03:06.36 | Dagmar | Aha! |
| 03:06.39 | Dagmar | "VASCO's patented and proprietary hardware and software security products provide computer security, Extended User Authentication (EUA EUA Examination under anesthesia, see there ) and RSA/DES encryption for financial institutions, industry and government. " |
| 03:07.17 | Dagmar | That's from the patent lawsuit Vasco and Security Dynamics settled with some company called ActivCard back in 1996 |
| 03:07.29 | Adys | Jamash: are you playing it yet. |
| 03:07.48 | Dagmar | So they likely *are* using RSA then |
| 03:08.06 | kd3 | ScytheBlade1, no kidding |
| 03:08.40 | Jamash | is it available for download? |
| 03:08.58 | Dagmar | When in doubt, follow the lawyers. :) |
| 03:10.39 | Legorol | Jamash: it might explain a bit better why i'm so nonchalant with my account. For me the act of playing the game and having access to it feels more valuable than the current state of my characters. |
| 03:10.58 | Legorol | The thing I'd probably be most annoyed by if I had my account stolen is that I couldn't log in ^^ |
| 03:11.26 | cogwheel | rawr http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/downloads/ssotd/#1472 |
| 03:11.27 | ecs | o noes i esceared of teh rawr! i need a huggle |
| 03:11.28 | cogwheel | <.< |
| 03:11.29 | cogwheel | >.> |
| 03:11.38 | cogwheel | ~poke ecs |
| 03:11.39 | purl | ACTION cuts down a small tree, sneaks up behind ecs, pokes ecs repeatedly, hilarity ensues. |
| 03:12.32 | Legorol | cogwheel: are you hitting on underage pink gnome chicks again? |
| 03:13.55 | cogwheel | *shudder* http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/downloads/ssotd/#1422 sorry... i'm a gnome but... *shudder* |
| 03:14.08 | Iriel | cogwheel: My eyes! |
| 03:14.19 | ScytheBlade1 | wow, that picture is amazing |
| 03:15.20 | ScytheBlade1 | Then again |
| 03:15.25 | ScytheBlade1 | I also think that http://images.aboveaverageurl.com/WoW/2.4/gnome-naked-dance.png is amazing |
| 03:15.29 | ScytheBlade1 | (and yes that is my mage) |
| 03:17.08 | cogwheel | http://cogwheel.info/upload/files/cogflex.png |
| 03:18.38 | ScytheBlade1 | ha, nicely done |
| 03:19.14 | Aznamir | what's Interface: 30000 for wow 3.1 ? |
| 03:19.17 | Aznamir | 30100? |
| 03:19.21 | ScytheBlade1 | 30100 |
| 03:19.43 | Iriel | 3.1.0 ---> 03 01 00 ---> 30100 |
| 03:20.45 | Jamash | I set mine to 31000 by mistake at first |
| 03:21.00 | Jamash | and then wondered why it wasn't loading |
| 03:24.03 | *** join/#wowuidev Aqua (n=Vette@74-137-182-29.dhcp.insightbb.com) |
| 03:25.18 | Rabbitbunny | Do you guys happen to know of a way top drop an item? |
| 03:25.39 | Jamash | by drop you mean destroy? |
| 03:25.43 | ScytheBlade1 | Rabbitbunny: you pick it up, and then you DeleteCursor() iirc |
| 03:25.43 | Sargeras | hmmm wowarmory gives a Redirect Loop error? |
| 03:26.23 | Rabbitbunny | Yes. |
| 03:31.23 | *** join/#wowuidev Repo (n=supybot@hg.curseforge.net) |
| 03:32.13 | *** join/#wowuidev Matrix110 (i=Matrix11@pD957B0D6.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 03:45.40 | Rabbitbunny | Ah, there we go, DeleteCursorItem(), found it misspelled via enGB forums. |
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| 03:54.49 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+v MentalPower] by ChanServ |
| 04:01.55 | *** join/#wowuidev Miyagui (i=miya@190.232.205.234) |
| 04:06.11 | Shirik | whatever happened to that elevator arena level |
| 04:07.54 | *** join/#wowuidev callahan (n=callahan@74-130-66-145.dhcp.insightbb.com) |
| 04:07.55 | *** join/#wowuidev colint (n=colint@69-11-97-130.regn.static.sasknet.sk.ca) |
| 04:10.09 | Adys | Shirik: disabled until 3.1 |
| 04:17.42 | Wraithan | The one that started you in close quarters? |
| 04:17.50 | Wraithan | Hate that one as a healer |
| 04:18.13 | Wraithan | in 3s I run as resto shaman, with 2 mages |
| 04:18.29 | Wraithan | that one always sucked |
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| 04:28.42 | *** join/#wowuidev Torhal (n=callahan@74-130-66-145.dhcp.insightbb.com) |
| 04:30.13 | *** join/#wowuidev Random (n=Denial@unaffiliated/windaria) |
| 04:30.14 | NeoTron | gah. my mic stops working ona daily basis (or rather it sounds like I'm in a helicopter). anyone know of any good but not overly expensive soundcards that work with vista 64 bit without daily restarts? |
| 04:30.34 | Adys | I'd recommend fixing your helicopter first |
| 04:30.38 | WobWork | Just say you're being deployed |
| 04:30.55 | NeoTron | it's rather annoying :P |
| 04:31.53 | Codayus | NeoTron: I've got that issue. Unsure, but it's annoying me. :-/ |
| 04:31.57 | MentalPower | NeoTron: USB headset? |
| 04:32.13 | MentalPower | or actually any USB-audio thingy should work just fine |
| 04:53.56 | WobWork | hm |
| 04:54.07 | WobWork | I'd probably buy the authenticator if it came on the iTouch |
| 04:54.26 | WobWork | http://us.blizzard.com/support/article.xml?articleId=26109 |
| 04:58.29 | Aqua | Took a break from my pc and wow for 2 weeks, back for 3 hours and ready to stop again |
| 04:58.58 | *** join/#wowuidev Aqua (n=Vette@74-137-182-29.dhcp.insightbb.com) |
| 05:00.26 | MentalPower | WobWork: it does |
| 05:01.46 | WobWork | MentalPower: only korea atm |
| 05:01.53 | MentalPower | correct |
| 05:02.16 | MentalPower | currently the mobile version iphone/itouch/<insertPhoneHere> is korea only |
| 05:02.30 | MentalPower | it will come to the US Soon (tm) |
| 05:02.53 | Shirik | Adys: Any reason why? |
| 05:03.17 | WobWork | Shirik: because a broken helicopter is serious business? |
| 05:03.24 | Shirik | a what? |
| 05:04.00 | Adys | Shirik: no idea, it was buggy or something |
| 05:05.17 | Shirik | what is this helicopter |
| 05:06.58 | Rabbitbunny | Okay, does PickupContainerItem() only pick up one of a stack? |
| 05:11.56 | WobWork | soubt it |
| 05:11.58 | WobWork | doubt |
| 05:12.13 | WobWork | you need the specific split function to do that |
| 05:12.18 | WobWork | oh wait |
| 05:13.07 | WobWork | yeah |
| 05:13.09 | WobWork | SplitContainerItem |
| 05:13.34 | WobWork | (bag, slot, amount) |
| 05:13.36 | Rabbitbunny | Okay, because I want to pick up whole stacks, it just seems to be working oddly |
| 05:14.10 | WobWork | make sure the slot isn't locked |
| 05:14.41 | WobWork | GetContainerItemInfo(bag, slot) argument 3 |
| 05:14.46 | Rabbitbunny | oh. |
| 05:15.26 | Rabbitbunny | locked... that's kinda a bummer. I'm trying to drop a cheap item to loot a better item, automagically. |
| 05:15.42 | *** join/#wowuidev cncfanatics (n=cncfanat@WoWUIDev/cncfanatics) |
| 05:16.56 | WobWork | it'd only be locked if something else was using the slot at the same time |
| 05:17.49 | Shirik | ScytheBlade1: wtf? |
| 05:17.55 | Rabbitbunny | I think what's doing me in is not destroying loot I don't want to keep from the loot window. |
| 05:18.18 | Shirik | How do you have 0 experience, -10 alignment, and are ALREADY #Ship Destroyed# |
| 05:20.12 | Shirik | -- 03/19/21 -- 04:14:31 PM -- |
| 05:20.12 | Shirik | Sbo self-destructed! |
| 05:20.14 | Shirik | ...? |
| 05:22.16 | kmcguire | haha |
| 05:22.30 | Thunder_Child | gah, it's going to take me almost 2 hours to do a scan of every sector |
| 05:22.45 | Thunder_Child | s/2/3/ |
| 05:22.55 | kmcguire | I can write lua scripts for Tw. |
| 05:22.59 | kmcguire | =p |
| 05:23.05 | Thunder_Child | thanks but i have TWX |
| 05:23.21 | Thunder_Child | works like a charm....if i need anything specific i will come as k you |
| 05:23.38 | *** join/#wowuidev digmouse__ (n=chatzill@58.20.47.166) |
| 05:24.07 | Arrowmaster | Thunder_Child: why are you attacking my defensive fighters |
| 05:24.32 | Thunder_Child | Arrowmaster, what, it was one in a random sector that was in my way |
| 05:24.38 | Thunder_Child | i cant retreat forward |
| 05:24.42 | Thunder_Child | afaik |
| 05:24.56 | Thunder_Child | and it wouldnt let me go by w/o atacking it |
| 05:25.31 | Arrowmaster | that was a class 0 port |
| 05:25.43 | Thunder_Child | translation? |
| 05:25.57 | Arrowmaster | are you sure you had to attack it? |
| 05:26.16 | Thunder_Child | i did a '?' it didnt give me any options to move around it |
| 05:26.25 | Arrowmaster | next time i guess ill make it a toll fighter |
| 05:26.50 | kd3 | sigh. undying attempt fails on the safety dance. |
| 05:27.26 | Shirik | Thunder_Child: You can retreat |
| 05:27.31 | Shirik | You can't go forward, you are correct |
| 05:27.41 | Shirik | that's the point of a defensive fighter |
| 05:27.42 | Thunder_Child | Shirik, i didnt want to retreat |
| 05:27.47 | Arrowmaster | i figured a defensive fighter wouldnt do anything unless attacked |
| 05:27.59 | Shirik | No, defensive means "Don't let anyone in here, but give them a chance to turn around" |
| 05:28.04 | Shirik | Offensive means "Attack as soon as they enter |
| 05:28.16 | Shirik | Toll means "Allow them to pay X money to enter, or make them turn around" |
| 05:28.17 | kmcguire | I put all mine on offensive. |
| 05:28.19 | Shirik | Toll can be 0 though |
| 05:28.31 | kmcguire | So they will be a pain in the butt. |
| 05:28.40 | Arrowmaster | ok the other class 0 port has a defensive fighter too so i guess i better switch it to toll later |
| 05:28.43 | Shirik | Also, kmcguire, you need to fix your script |
| 05:28.49 | Shirik | your script is spamming universal announcements |
| 05:28.51 | Shirik | which is yuck |
| 05:29.01 | Arrowmaster | yeah its advertising itself |
| 05:29.08 | Thunder_Child | AS FAIL! |
| 05:29.10 | kmcguire | oh, thats the dumb, thing I tried. |
| 05:29.15 | kmcguire | I hate it. |
| 05:29.34 | kmcguire | The author is retarded. |
| 05:30.11 | kmcguire | He thinks he can make me pay for his crap, but I am better than that. |
| 05:30.55 | kmcguire | I think I am better.. the case is still out really, lol. |
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| 05:31.26 | Xinhuan | Tekkub: update framexml to latest ptr build? (commit the Blizz feedback ui tool too?) |
| 05:31.49 | Tekkub | mur, yea I haven't patched yet |
| 05:31.53 | *** join/#wowuidev Ycarene (n=Ycarene@24-116-56-41.cpe.cableone.net) |
| 05:31.57 | Shirik | gdit cogwheel |
| 05:31.59 | Shirik | get off my ass |
| 05:32.26 | Shirik | you trying to get hurt? |
| 05:32.55 | Arrowmaster | Shirik: how do you set a toll fighter to no toll? |
| 05:32.59 | Shirik | 0 value |
| 05:33.10 | Arrowmaster | i didnt even see a place to set a value |
| 05:33.11 | Thunder_Child | i'm confused....is this from the ptr/arena server? http://www.wowhead.com/?npc=26309 |
| 05:33.35 | Tekkub | tourney |
| 05:33.42 | Thunder_Child | thanks Tekkub |
| 05:33.52 | Tekkub | money is meaningless there, everyone has equal access to everything |
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| 05:38.52 | Rabbitbunny | Hmm, you guys know of a way to destroy loo from the loot windows without putting it into my bags? |
| 05:39.06 | Tekkub | no |
| 05:39.12 | Rabbitbunny | dang. |
| 05:40.17 | *** join/#wowuidev digmouse (n=chatzill@222.240.182.154) |
| 05:42.04 | Tekkub | hrm... anyone seen an empty guild bank, or near empty... |
| 05:42.10 | Tekkub | both in game AND on the armory... |
| 05:42.22 | Tekkub | then it's majickally un-empty like an hour later? |
| 05:42.31 | kd3 | caching issues? |
| 05:42.39 | kd3 | item servers taking a dive? |
| 05:42.41 | Tekkub | caching ING GAME? |
| 05:45.41 | Thunder_Child | is there a max number of turns you can "stockpile"? |
| 05:46.41 | *** join/#wowuidev PProvost (n=PProvost@WoWUIDev/WAU/Admin/Pprovost) |
| 05:47.47 | cogwheel | Thunder_Child: i have it set to 7 days worth on gnomeregan |
| 05:48.31 | Thunder_Child | cogwheel, so 35000 turns max? |
| 05:49.17 | Tekkub | AH HA! |
| 05:49.28 | Tekkub | "We see this sometimes when guild leadership changes" |
| 05:49.35 | Tekkub | we changed GM last night |
| 05:54.16 | Thunder_Child | anyone know if we are going to get a 'free' respec with 3.1? |
| 05:54.19 | *** join/#wowuidev DWSR (n=doingwha@24.114.252.240) |
| 05:54.56 | Tekkub | uh |
| 05:55.18 | Tekkub | you get a "free" second spec when you pay 1kg for the second tab |
| 05:55.28 | Thunder_Child | no, i meant with all the talet changes |
| 05:55.36 | Thunder_Child | talent* |
| 05:55.54 | DWSR | I believe that they are planning to reset talent points on a few classes. |
| 05:56.06 | Tekkub | yea it's always kinda iffy |
| 05:56.17 | Tekkub | copy to PTR and see if you get reset? |
| 05:56.18 | DWSR | Warlocks should get a reset. |
| 05:56.28 | DWSR | Tekkub: They probably reset them on the PTR anyway though |
| 05:56.49 | Tekkub | erm, not that I remember |
| 05:57.14 | Tekkub | I only remember getting resets when talents changed enough they deemed it necessary |
| 05:57.26 | Tekkub | which of course in beta was EVERY FUCKING BUILD |
| 05:57.45 | Tekkub | I have that shadow spec engrained in my skull... and I'm holy now |
| 05:59.47 | Shirik | hmmmm |
| 05:59.53 | Shirik | Ports : Alpha Centauri, Class 0 (Special) |
| 05:59.53 | Shirik | Fighters: 1 (belong to Arrowmaster) [Toll] |
| 06:00.08 | Shirik | Your fighters: 33,107 vs. theirs: 1 |
| 06:00.13 | Shirik | do I attack... |
| 06:00.17 | Esamynn | cogwheel: did you attack me earlier while I was sitting at the spacedock? |
| 06:00.19 | Esamynn | lol |
| 06:00.21 | Esamynn | yes |
| 06:00.27 | Shirik | why do you even have fighters there Arrowmaster >< |
| 06:00.43 | *** join/#wowuidev copystring_ (n=copystri@p548A1AC7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 06:01.15 | Shirik | I guess for transwarp |
| 06:02.12 | Esamynn | isn't arrow blue? |
| 06:02.13 | *** join/#wowuidev spode (i=spode@213.21.89.60) |
| 06:02.18 | Thunder_Child | *sigh* there is so much about that game i should learn but dont want to |
| 06:02.28 | Esamynn | lol |
| 06:02.45 | Tekkub | why learn, just read the API docs when you need to know something |
| 06:03.21 | *** join/#wowuidev Vilkku (n=Vilkku@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe22fa00-138.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 06:03.45 | *** join/#wowuidev X3 (n=rmoore08@208.98.166.74) |
| 06:03.49 | DWSR | ^ |
| 06:05.02 | Shirik | yes arrow is blue |
| 06:05.03 | Shirik | but |
| 06:05.14 | Shirik | it doesn't matter; it's corporation or personal |
| 06:05.15 | Shirik | not faction |
| 06:05.28 | Esamynn | I mean, so he can warp to fed space |
| 06:05.34 | Shirik | ah but |
| 06:05.38 | Shirik | alpha centauri is not fed space |
| 06:05.52 | Esamynn | yah, but why warp to it, when you can warp to the stardock or terra? |
| 06:05.53 | *** join/#wowuidev Aqua (n=Vette@74-137-180-6.dhcp.insightbb.com) |
| 06:06.03 | Shirik | to avoid all of cog's damn limpets |
| 06:06.28 | Esamynn | lol |
| 06:06.54 | Tekkub | ugh, idjuts... |
| 06:07.10 | Tekkub | random tell... "Where do I turn in [Dark Iron Residue]" |
| 06:07.29 | Aqua | oh, i got a random tell earlier: "Can i join your guild? |
| 06:07.39 | Aqua | my character isn't in a guild.... |
| 06:07.43 | Tekkub | "Thorium point" ... "You sure?" ... "Go check wowhead" ... "jeez was just asking" |
| 06:08.07 | Aqua | the combined IQ of all the wow servers scares me |
| 06:08.18 | kd3 | sqrt(-1)? |
| 06:08.35 | Aqua | imaginary numbers ftw.... |
| 06:08.46 | Tekkub | twelvty |
| 06:09.30 | Aqua | so uh water heater dropping its bottom + basement = bad combo |
| 06:09.43 | kd3 | sump pumps are great for that |
| 06:10.01 | Aqua | yea, they are wonderful |
| 06:10.03 | kd3 | been there, done that |
| 06:10.11 | Tekkub | they should have made that word "spmup" |
| 06:10.13 | Aqua | damage iwas horrible |
| 06:10.22 | Tekkub | spmup pumps |
| 06:10.27 | Aqua | i had to refinsih most of my basement its sad |
| 06:10.35 | Rabbitbunny | ...there was a lot in WotLK I didn't notice. |
| 06:13.57 | Aqua | damn i've lost 3 700 gig hdd's this week |
| 06:15.41 | kd3 | consider it an omen |
| 06:15.44 | kd3 | backup, backup, backup |
| 06:17.19 | Aqua | oh i've got backups out the rear |
| 06:17.28 | Aqua | they were raid drives anyway |
| 06:17.42 | Aqua | not a huge deal, pulled the drive, rebuild started, see you next failure |
| 06:20.07 | *** join/#wowuidev Guest14303 (n=Shirik@ip72-219-226-248.dc.dc.cox.net) |
| 06:20.55 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o Guest14303] by ChanServ |
| 06:30.18 | Tekkub | I have this sudden urge to make a DK named Grimrepair |
| 06:30.29 | Thunder_Child | ~lart Tekkub |
| 06:30.29 | purl | hits Tekkub with an anvil and laughs with a contralto voice ... Haha Ha HA Ha |
| 06:32.10 | Thunder_Child | so i saw "Knowing" tonight...i give it a "interesting, but i wouldnt pay money to see it" |
| 06:32.26 | Tekkub | what's this now? |
| 06:32.32 | Thunder_Child | the movie |
| 06:34.37 | Tekkub | sounds like "Deep Impact" all over again |
| 06:35.10 | Thunder_Child | but it isnt |
| 06:35.28 | Tekkub | why else have an astrophysicist? |
| 06:35.56 | Rabbitbunny | jargon jokes? |
| 06:36.04 | Tekkub | so it's Deep Impact + that movie where they know the plane is gonna crash |
| 06:36.08 | Thunder_Child | other non-crash into earth space bearing reasons |
| 06:38.46 | Tekkub | space bears? |
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| 06:38.49 | Tekkub | okey I'll go see it |
| 06:39.10 | Shirik | ~ping |
| 06:39.11 | purl | ~pong |
| 06:39.17 | Thunder_Child | just dont pay for it Tekkub |
| 06:39.22 | Shirik | did cog's server just die? |
| 06:39.25 | AbsolutRayne | Define Amazing: Your GM of the Guild that is dying locks all of the officers Gbank abilities, Takes all the gold, and kicks the people he doesnt like |
| 06:39.26 | *** join/#wowuidev kromar (n=Miranda@84-75-108-221.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 06:39.51 | Tekkub | me pay for a movie, you funny |
| 06:40.14 | Tekkub | AbsolutRayne, amazing? |
| 06:40.19 | Tekkub | sounds like your usual drama |
| 06:40.39 | Thunder_Child | Shirik, no |
| 06:40.55 | AbsolutRayne | The amazing part is he turns around and blames the officers for the guild dying, even though he hadnt raided in a month |
| 06:41.16 | Tekkub | hrm... wowhead's JSON isn't up to standard |
| 06:41.16 | AbsolutRayne | 10 man Guilds r srs bsnss |
| 06:41.19 | Tekkub | slackers |
| 06:41.48 | Tekkub | I'm honestly hoping my lil guid here gets to a nice stable 10-man point |
| 06:41.54 | Tekkub | I don't want it to go to 25 |
| 06:41.55 | Thunder_Child | so are 10-man gangbangs....whats your point? |
| 06:42.03 | Tekkub | but who knows how the rest will feel |
| 06:42.17 | Thunder_Child | i actually want a guild with say....200 active peoples |
| 06:42.27 | Thunder_Child | at least gchat will be interesting |
| 06:42.40 | Tekkub | I'd take a guild of 10-15 active adults any day |
| 06:42.56 | Tekkub | had the big ass guild and the guild full of kids thing |
| 06:43.18 | Tekkub | I just want what I go here, plus raiding |
| 06:43.34 | Tekkub | *got |
| 06:43.35 | Tekkub | ugh |
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| 06:47.44 | kromar | i have a liitle question, im updating an addon which adjusts graphic settings dynamic like view distance and such things... now if i set the max view distance to be bigger than about 60% of the default value i get a lot of loading screens (gxreload or something like that) any idea why this happens? |
| 06:49.36 | kd3 | wow will show a load screen if it's gotta load a lot of stuff now. has since 3.0 or so |
| 06:49.36 | Adys | kromar: blizz added those loading screens for a lot of stuff in 3.0.8 |
| 06:49.41 | kd3 | er, 3.0.8 |
| 06:49.44 | Adys | dunno why |
| 06:49.53 | Adys | hey kd3 |
| 06:49.59 | Adys | our "a lot of stuff" were aligned |
| 06:50.15 | kd3 | lol |
| 06:51.21 | kromar | but why does it work without loadscreens if the value is under 60%? |
| 06:52.21 | Adys | view distance increases the distance before the fog appears |
| 06:52.27 | Adys | and the fog makes you load less stuff |
| 06:52.41 | Adys | and as kd3 said, the more stuff to load, you'll get a loading screen |
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| 06:54.14 | kromar | could it be that if i had a faster computer that it would work? |
| 06:54.24 | Adys | no |
| 06:54.28 | kromar | hm ok |
| 06:54.32 | Adys | afk sleep |
| 06:54.47 | kromar | that sucks:/ |
| 06:57.45 | *** join/#wowuidev foxlit (n=foxlit@wnn72113.wireless.dtu.dk) |
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| 06:59.08 | blaaargh | hola |
| 07:05.23 | kromar | hm but the strange thing is, if i set the max value over 60% then i also get the loading screens when the vie distance is lower than 60% o_O doesent make any sense to me |
| 07:13.28 | blaaargh | yay for making first addon /sigh |
| 07:14.39 | blaaargh | xmls are pretty annoying |
| 07:16.20 | zenzio | you don't have to use them if you don't like them =) |
| 07:16.52 | blaaargh | got a link or something on how i can avoid em? :X |
| 07:17.10 | zenzio | look up CreateFrame() |
| 07:17.50 | blaaargh | ooh |
| 07:20.24 | blaaargh | so, would sending OnEvent to lua then checking if the events something i want be horribly bad coding? |
| 07:21.56 | blaaargh | er wait, i think i misunderstood this |
| 07:22.19 | blaaargh | OnEvent is only getting data from events you registered |
| 07:22.28 | blaaargh | so then your only parsing.. ok nvm |
| 07:23.05 | foxlit | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15864256729&sid=1 |
| 07:23.58 | foxlit | "I hear little puppies barking. Yesss... barking faster now. Soon the barking will stop." |
| 07:25.00 | blaaargh | cthun always creeped me out |
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| 07:25.13 | blaaargh | your heart will explode.. |
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| 07:31.48 | blaaargh | whats the point of http://wowuidev.pastey.net/110543 instead of just calling LockNotes_OnLoad() in OnLoad? |
| 07:32.16 | blaaargh | (if theres any) |
| 07:32.24 | foxlit | There is a point. |
| 07:32.39 | blaaargh | effeciency hack? |
| 07:32.46 | foxlit | No. |
| 07:32.50 | zenzio | blaaargh: because OnLoad could fire before the saved variables and other addons ahve finished loading |
| 07:33.47 | blaaargh | so thats general good practice to do to avoid random errors? |
| 07:34.06 | foxlit | Errors are never random. |
| 07:34.15 | kd3 | unless you've got bad memory |
| 07:34.20 | blaaargh | your just being difficult :p |
| 07:34.26 | blaaargh | you know what I mean |
| 07:34.30 | foxlit | Indeed I am. |
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| 07:36.40 | foxlit | But I'm being difficult with a point: you should know what it is you're doing (and, for bonus points, why). |
| 07:38.35 | blaaargh | in that case, OnEvent could fire even before your SavedVariables are loaded and not other addons, correct? |
| 07:38.51 | blaaargh | not other addons SavedVars that is |
| 07:38.55 | zenzio | that's why the OnLoad registers the VARIABLES_LOADED event |
| 07:39.06 | blaaargh | makes sense :) |
| 07:39.50 | zenzio | you should read up on the UI loading sequence if you haven't already |
| 07:39.57 | foxlit | In that case, it's not so much a problem that it could fire before -- rather, it's a problem that it could fire *after* |
| 07:40.20 | foxlit | Since OnLoad only registers VARIABLES_LOADED, it's probably a reasonable assertion that that would be the first event that triggers. |
| 07:40.46 | blaaargh | ohh, so it prevents your code from executing before your ready |
| 07:40.48 | foxlit | However, _OnLoad() or _OnEvent() could end up registering additional events, and you don't want to call _OnLoad() on those subsequent calls. |
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| 07:45.16 | blaaargh | woo, first addon done |
| 07:45.25 | blaaargh | completely and utterly ripped from locknotes |
| 07:48.19 | Fisker- | ~foxlit++ |
| 07:52.47 | blaaargh | nevermind on done, it failed miserably :D |
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| 08:13.09 | blaaargh | woo! |
| 08:13.19 | blaaargh | night all |
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| 09:38.39 | Wobin | ahahah: http://community.livejournal.com/bad_rpers_suck/6649485.html |
| 09:38.40 | Wobin | win |
| 09:46.06 | Thunder_Child | ~epic fail Nerako |
| 09:46.07 | purl | Nerako, you have failed in such a spectacular way that one thousand years from now people will tell their children stories about a failure so great that it eclipsed every success from that period of time. And you Nerako, you are that epic failure. |
| 09:46.13 | zenzio | Wobin: lol |
| 09:47.20 | foxlit | Wobin: meh. |
| 09:47.40 | foxlit | I was expecting bad RP. |
| 09:48.08 | foxlit | Needles to say, the random image montage and javascript popups aren't deeply satisfying :( |
| 09:52.38 | Xinhuan | on PTR, you can get soulshards just draining soul the 1 hp target dummies in towns |
| 09:52.40 | Xinhuan | :D |
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| 09:55.15 | foxlit | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15864846355&sid=1 << strangest bug report ever |
| 09:56.34 | zenzio | Xinhuan: so the target dummies have souls? This revelation is most distressing |
| 09:57.13 | foxlit | meh, on the other hand, drain soul works on gnomes. |
| 09:57.23 | [draco] | is it me or does "It actually does what it is listed." not actually make sense? |
| 09:57.52 | foxlit | [draco]: I suppose what we're both missing is why the tooltip is absurd. |
| 09:58.36 | [draco] | that, too. |
| 09:58.59 | [draco] | but the sentence is wrong |
| 09:59.18 | [draco] | it hurts :/ |
| 09:59.37 | foxlit | Oh. |
| 09:59.40 | foxlit | Don't read the signature, then. |
| 10:00.02 | *** join/#wowuidev Aelobin (n=Aelobin@79-71-207-21.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) |
| 10:00.04 | foxlit | That's like a place where grammars go to die. |
| 10:00.17 | [draco] | yeah |
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| 10:09.25 | Wobin | hang on |
| 10:09.31 | Wobin | DK hitcap 2H is 8 or 9%? |
| 10:09.32 | mikma | ok |
| 10:09.39 | mikma | 9% afaik |
| 10:09.50 | Wobin | (without draenei =)) |
| 10:09.50 | mikma | elitishjerks know better |
| 10:09.50 | Wraithan | 8 |
| 10:10.20 | Wraithan | Without draenei, 8 |
| 10:10.33 | mikma | well... |
| 10:10.45 | mikma | draenei is not a suitable word |
| 10:10.57 | mikma | needs to be more precise |
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| 10:11.06 | Wraithan | Agreed, it shouldn't be uttered in public |
| 10:11.08 | mikma | different classes give you a different bugg |
| 10:11.09 | Wraithan | space goat suffices |
| 10:11.12 | mikma | buff* |
| 10:12.01 | Wobin | hum |
| 10:12.06 | Wobin | where did the 9% number come from? |
| 10:12.25 | mikma | usually from keyboard |
| 10:12.29 | mikma | that's where i get it |
| 10:13.35 | Wraithan | BC parses |
| 10:13.46 | Wraithan | WotLK parses show 8% |
| 10:13.53 | mikma | lots of folks also test it with target dummy |
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| 10:17.21 | foxlit | Fisker-: Death comes. Will your puppies be clear? |
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| 10:23.11 | Dagmar | If you want to know, just strip naked (or enough to get a hit-rating of 0) at 80, and auto-attack the dummies for about 10 minutes. |
| 10:24.07 | Wraithan | 10 minutes still leaves a wide margin for error |
| 10:24.18 | Codayus | Actually, your better off gearing for very slightly over 8%, and testing for a miss... |
| 10:24.27 | foxlit | Hey, quick, how wide of a margin is that margin? |
| 10:24.41 | Codayus | Because yeah, you need crazy amounts of data for a reasonable confidence interval. |
| 10:24.57 | Dagmar | 400 swings is going to be a good start. |
| 10:25.13 | Wraithan | I will jump on mine and check too |
| 10:25.14 | Dagmar | Let's pretend I said "Leave your toon wailing away at the dummy for six hours" |
| 10:25.22 | foxlit | hey, no fair |
| 10:25.23 | Dagmar | Happy? |
| 10:25.25 | foxlit | I demand statistics. |
| 10:25.39 | Dagmar | Go to college. |
| 10:25.43 | Dagmar | :P |
| 10:25.58 | Dagmar | Real programmers find ways to avoid math |
| 10:26.06 | Wraithan | yup |
| 10:26.21 | foxlit | Which results in them pulling numbers out of thin air :) |
| 10:26.26 | Dagmar | Nope. |
| 10:26.46 | Wraithan | I wanted to find the average of 3 darts thrown at a dart board completely at random, assuming they hit the board |
| 10:26.47 | Dagmar | What matters is whether or not you're comfortable with your miss rate unless you're just absolutely min-maxing |
| 10:27.00 | Wraithan | did I measure it all then come up with a number? |
| 10:27.24 | Wraithan | no, I wrote a program that threw darts at a board for a couple million rounds |
| 10:27.50 | Dagmar | Leaving a toon wailing away at the dummy for an hour is probably going to be MORE than enough accuracy for most people |
| 10:28.02 | foxlit | (what you could've done is just taken the average score weighed by the area of the slice to hit relative to the area of the board) |
| 10:28.20 | Wraithan | That's math. |
| 10:28.31 | foxlit | Indeed it is. |
| 10:28.49 | foxlit | Your random number generator is math, too |
| 10:29.12 | Dagmar | One solution is exact, but will take a while to code. |
| 10:29.40 | Dagmar | The other solution is "close enough" and can be scribbled up in less than a cup of coffee |
| 10:30.02 | Wraithan | it took like 20-30 minutes to code |
| 10:30.08 | foxlit | I don't think that's a fair comparison in the dart example |
| 10:30.21 | mikma | lua> local randomnumber = 1; print(randomnumber) |
| 10:30.22 | lua_bot | mikma: 1 |
| 10:30.24 | mikma | look! |
| 10:30.25 | mikma | it's random |
| 10:30.29 | Dagmar | Another perk of shoving people at the target dummies is that it's MIND-SCORCHINGLY DULL. |
| 10:31.04 | foxlit | Testing which sector a point belongs to is more or less equivalent to defining the area as an integral. |
| 10:33.10 | Dagmar | One of these days a spyware company will set up shop within easy driving distance of my house. |
| 10:33.14 | Dagmar | And then I'm going to need a lawyer. |
| 10:34.41 | Dagmar | Vundo, on my elderly parents' computer, again. |
| 10:37.52 | Wraithan | 20 hits no miss, must not need hit gear anymore |
| 10:37.57 | Wraithan | <.< |
| 10:38.27 | foxlit | lua> 0.99^20 |
| 10:38.27 | lua_bot | foxlit: 0.81790693759723 |
| 10:38.51 | foxlit | lua> 0.98^20 |
| 10:38.51 | lua_bot | foxlit: 0.66760797175509 |
| 10:39.50 | Dagmar | If you're comfortable with a potential 1/21 miss chance |
| 10:40.16 | Wraithan | less than 5% miss chance! |
| 10:40.17 | foxlit | Does that actually work? |
| 10:40.50 | foxlit | lua> (20/21)^20 |
| 10:40.50 | lua_bot | foxlit: 0.376889482873 |
| 10:41.29 | Codayus | Mmm, if memory serves, 0 misses in 20 tries means you can be 95% confident that um... actual miss chance lies between 0% and 16.84% |
| 10:41.47 | Wraithan | I should be using a fast 1hander for this but my dk doesn't have any of the 1hander skills maxed |
| 10:41.57 | Codayus | That's a fairly broad interval, really. |
| 10:42.34 | Wraithan | I have TV to watch so I will just let me DK sit here and swing |
| 10:42.58 | Dagmar | Be glad you're not trying to test something that uses mana |
| 10:43.07 | Wraithan | haha, yeah |
| 10:43.31 | Wraithan | What do glancing blows count as? |
| 10:44.26 | Dagmar | Dunno. It'd be cool if they show up in their own little row in recount if one happens tho |
| 10:44.27 | foxlit | glancing blows are glancing blows |
| 10:45.35 | foxlit | (in that they aren't misses, and hit rating doesn't help -- but I'm making that up) |
| 10:45.46 | Wraithan | Just read up on them |
| 10:45.51 | Wraithan | you are right, they are their own thing |
| 10:49.16 | Wraithan | started it over because I was attacking from the front (fail, I know) |
| 10:50.20 | Wraithan | then I realized that my miss % would be the same even if my parry went up because it is a single table |
| 10:50.21 | Wraithan | =/ |
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| 10:56.21 | mikma | jaahans |
| 10:56.32 | mikma | gah |
| 10:58.00 | Wraithan | 200 hits, 8.3 miss |
| 11:08.44 | Wraithan | 300 8.0% |
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| 11:09.32 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+v Legorol] by ChanServ |
| 11:14.38 | Wraithan | 400 7.3 |
| 11:15.47 | mikma | is this with 0 hit? |
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| 11:16.04 | Wraithan | yup |
| 11:16.11 | mikma | hmm.. interesting |
| 11:21.18 | Wraithan | 500 7.1 |
| 11:28.42 | Aelobin | if i do (25 + true and 50) |
| 11:28.48 | Aelobin | could i change the true to a condition |
| 11:28.54 | Aelobin | and if it's true, it'll add 50? |
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| 11:32.58 | mikma | well, sure why not |
| 11:34.25 | Aelobin | i just test it, it works if its 25 + (true and 50) |
| 11:34.34 | Aelobin | but if its (false and 50) it throws an error |
| 11:36.31 | mikma | lua> local foo = 10; if foo then print(25 + foo) else print(25+25) end |
| 11:36.31 | lua_bot | mikma: 35 |
| 11:36.42 | mikma | would that work for you? |
| 11:37.52 | Aelobin | kind of :P i think i ended up answering my own question <_> |
| 11:38.04 | *** join/#wowuidev Shirik (n=Shirik@conspiracy/developer/Shirik) |
| 11:38.04 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o Shirik] by ChanServ |
| 11:38.33 | Shirik | ok, I severely broke something |
| 11:38.52 | Shirik | Every time I start windows, it now says "Preparing your desktop..." for like 3 minutes and then finally gives up and says "Your profile could not be loaded! Windows is using a temporary profile blah blah" |
| 11:39.04 | mikma | shirik: haha |
| 11:39.14 | Shirik | I tried system restore (lol) and it says "System restore failed while scanning the file system" |
| 11:39.18 | Shirik | And here's the fun part |
| 11:39.24 | mikma | http://www.persegirls.com |
| 11:39.33 | Shirik | no, not the fun part |
| 11:39.40 | mikma | that url can be translates as the ass girls dot com in finland ;) |
| 11:39.43 | mikma | perse = ass |
| 11:39.44 | Codayus | Shirik: Check logs? |
| 11:39.53 | Shirik | the fun part is when I run chkdsk, it freezes at 20% for a while and then continues |
| 11:39.57 | Shirik | but never finds anything |
| 11:40.06 | Codayus | Hmmm, that doesn't sound happy making. |
| 11:40.06 | Shirik | Codayus: The logs are very helpful |
| 11:40.07 | mikma | hdd assploded. |
| 11:40.17 | Shirik | mikma: But that's inconsistent with the cause, which is wierd |
| 11:40.24 | Shirik | I would normally agree with you |
| 11:40.46 | Shirik | But this happened after I shut my laptop screen (which causes a bsod & restart 100% of the time; known windows 7 driver issue I've already reported) |
| 11:41.19 | Codayus | Hm, if your hdd has a magic spot of unhappiness, and that happens to be the spot your profile is... |
| 11:41.20 | mikma | shirik: the 20% spot of hdd is broken? :I that's because it halts |
| 11:41.33 | mikma | shirik: it may continue, if you just let it wait for several hours? |
| 11:41.58 | Shirik | it continues after maybe 10 minutes or so |
| 11:42.16 | Codayus | Try making a new profile. Or...fire up perfmon, and try and figure out what's happening when it freezes? |
| 11:42.24 | Shirik | Here is the awesome log |
| 11:42.26 | Shirik | Windows cannot load the locally stored profile. Possible causes of this error include insufficient security rights or a corrupt local profile. |
| 11:42.27 | Shirik | DETAIL - Access is denied. |
| 11:42.38 | Codayus | hhhm |
| 11:43.16 | Codayus | Srsly mangled NTFS permissions might theoretically do that... |
| 11:43.32 | Shirik | yeah but I'd like to go back to "wtf why" |
| 11:43.34 | Codayus | Can you look at your profile in explorer and open/copy/edit it? |
| 11:43.45 | Shirik | in explorer? |
| 11:44.51 | Codayus | Yar. |
| 11:44.58 | Shirik | what do you mean |
| 11:45.57 | Codayus | Well, if you believe that log message... It went to open your local profile, went a little nuts due to permissions, corrupted files, and/or broken drive, froze for 10 minutes, then gave up. |
| 11:46.12 | Shirik | This is fun |
| 11:46.20 | Aelobin | can anyone else not connect to EU wow? |
| 11:46.32 | Shirik | I tried to assign ownership of all directories under C:\Users\mpdelbuono to mpdelbuono |
| 11:46.36 | Codayus | So, I'd poke at the local profile, and try to figure out if it's got sane permissions... |
| 11:46.39 | Shirik | and I get "You do not have permission to read the contents..." |
| 11:47.14 | Codayus | Hah |
| 11:47.21 | Rabbitbunny | heh |
| 11:47.35 | Shirik | seriously how this could have happened is beyond me |
| 11:47.38 | mikma | so you can't add authenticator in battle.net before you add games? |
| 11:51.02 | Shirik | now we run cacls to grant my account access to everything in that directory |
| 11:51.15 | Shirik | and if I still get access denied shit I'm .... wtgf? |
| 11:51.24 | Shirik | Error: The data area passed to a system call is too small. |
| 11:51.28 | Shirik | What the hell kind of error is that |
| 11:51.46 | Shirik | ahahahahahahaha |
| 11:51.48 | Shirik | Oh man |
| 11:51.55 | Shirik | Windows fails at links |
| 11:51.59 | Codayus | That sounds a bit special, even for NTFS permissions, which are famously...special. |
| 11:52.10 | Shirik | processed dir: C:\Users\mpdelbuono\AppData\Local\Application Data\Application Da |
| 11:52.10 | Shirik | ta\Application Data\Application Data\Application Data\Application Data\Applicati |
| 11:52.16 | mikma | special permissions for special people |
| 11:52.23 | Rabbitbunny | what's the UAC way to gain root? |
| 11:52.29 | Codayus | Wha... |
| 11:52.31 | Shirik | It was recursively going into the Application Data directory |
| 11:52.35 | Shirik | which only points to itself |
| 11:53.10 | Shirik | Rabbitbunny: Run command prompt as root? |
| 11:53.15 | Shirik | well, as administrator |
| 11:54.39 | Codayus | Shirik: Hrm, there's a shortcut there on Vista, but it doesn't recurse... |
| 11:54.53 | mikma | stupid answer to rabbitbunny: install linux |
| 11:55.12 | Shirik | actually you're right, it doesn't Codayus |
| 11:55.35 | Shirik | actually yeah it does Codayus |
| 11:55.45 | Codayus | Heh |
| 11:55.46 | Shirik | go to \Users\foo\AppData\Local\Application Data |
| 11:55.50 | Shirik | it's hidden |
| 11:55.58 | Shirik | and then you should be able to keep going further |
| 11:56.21 | Codayus | ...I can't. |
| 11:56.24 | Shirik | really? |
| 11:56.27 | Shirik | well I'm on 7 too |
| 11:56.28 | Shirik | so |
| 11:56.34 | Shirik | maybe there's a difference |
| 11:56.59 | Shirik | anyway, I poked permissions, poked my profile in the registry |
| 11:57.10 | Shirik | I'm going to futil-ly reboot my computer |
| 11:57.19 | Shirik | what's the adjective describing something that's futile? |
| 11:57.21 | mikma | https://us.battle.net/account/support/mobile-auth-download.xml <- har har, denied! |
| 11:57.21 | Codayus | There's a hidden Application Data shortcut, sure |
| 11:57.34 | Shirik | er, adverb |
| 11:57.36 | Shirik | not adjective |
| 11:57.39 | Codayus | But double clicking says access denied, and permissions say its a shortcut with a blank target... |
| 11:58.15 | Shirik | futilely |
| 11:58.17 | Shirik | that's a word |
| 11:58.29 | Codayus | Ah, because it's a junction, not a shortcut, right. |
| 11:58.53 | Shirik | anyway, brb |
| 11:59.01 | Shirik | lol windows updates |
| 11:59.01 | Shirik | fu |
| 11:59.39 | Shirik | C:\Windows\System32\Shutdown.exe Error: No such interface supported |
| 11:59.47 | Shirik | Maybe I should just trash this install |
| 11:59.52 | Shirik | oh |
| 11:59.56 | Shirik | cmd.exe: No such interface supported |
| 11:59.58 | Shirik | now wtf did I do |
| 12:00.29 | Shirik | oh I deleted my temp profile |
| 12:00.33 | Codayus | I think you already trashed that install. oO |
| 12:00.34 | Shirik | probably it got pissed at that |
| 12:00.41 | Shirik | I deleted the profile that I'm logged on to |
| 12:00.42 | zenzio | Shirik is obviously trying to prove that Windows is not yet ready for the desktop |
| 12:00.45 | Shirik | before I logged off |
| 12:00.59 | Shirik | how to shut down the computer now, hmm |
| 12:01.07 | Shirik | if this were linux I could ctrl+alt+f2 |
| 12:01.09 | Shirik | but noooooooo |
| 12:01.31 | Shirik | bah |
| 12:01.32 | zenzio | your Linux has Ctrl+Alt+F2 bound to "shutdown"? |
| 12:01.32 | Shirik | power button! |
| 12:01.40 | Shirik | no, it has a shell |
| 12:01.48 | zenzio | that's not what you were talking about |
| 12:01.55 | zenzio | you were asking how to shut off the computer |
| 12:02.04 | Shirik | Yes, and I can shutdown from a shell |
| 12:02.12 | Shirik | But I can't even open the shell right now |
| 12:02.36 | Shirik | ok |
| 12:02.39 | Shirik | magical power button |
| 12:03.22 | Rabbitbunny | THere's a power button on the back, disguised as a common power cord. |
| 12:03.29 | Rabbitbunny | I suggest a conspiracy. |
| 12:03.43 | Codayus | Shirik: Ah right, if you can double click on Application Data and not get an error message, your permissions are screwed. |
| 12:03.56 | Codayus | Assuming your still here, since your last comment involved power buttons...hm... |
| 12:06.25 | *** join/#wowuidev Guest14303 (n=Shirik@ip72-219-226-248.dc.dc.cox.net) |
| 12:06.41 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o Guest14303] by ChanServ |
| 12:06.58 | Codayus | Shirik: If you can double click on a junction point - like Application Data - and not get an error, your permissions are screwed. |
| 12:07.19 | Shirik | I'm not even going to bother I think |
| 12:07.36 | Shirik | I'm just going to check the drive, and if it's ok, go install windows again |
| 12:07.40 | Fisker- | ~karma Fisker- |
| 12:07.40 | purl | fisker- has karma of -11 |
| 12:07.41 | Codayus | They should have Read permissions set to Everyone - Deny, which stops everything from going nuts recurseing. |
| 12:07.44 | Fisker- | i hate you so much Shirik |
| 12:07.49 | Fisker- | you ruined everything |
| 12:07.51 | Codayus | http://www.svrops.com/svrops/articles/jpoints.htm |
| 12:07.55 | Codayus | If you care. *shrug* |
| 12:08.20 | Shirik | I don't see why it should deny |
| 12:08.22 | mikma | WTB eu servers back |
| 12:08.32 | Shirik | also, I just granted myself full permissions on that directory |
| 12:08.33 | Shirik | so |
| 12:08.37 | Shirik | that's to be expected, reallyt |
| 12:08.42 | Codayus | *nod* |
| 12:08.43 | Codayus | Hmm |
| 12:08.52 | Arrowmaster | wtf somebody replyed to a joke saying '"??? profit" is always a winner in my book, 4chan ftw' |
| 12:09.01 | Arrowmaster | seriously |
| 12:09.20 | Arrowmaster | that joke has been around since before 2ch even existed |
| 12:09.23 | Codayus | It does explain the recursing behaviour though... |
| 12:09.38 | Codayus | Meh, 1am here. Good luck on the reinstall. |
| 12:10.46 | Shirik | I'll just run a hard drive test while I'm gone today |
| 12:10.52 | Shirik | just because |
| 12:13.48 | mikma | http://fukung.net/v/8294/6849cc93596393b4932a751595bf406f.jpg |
| 12:13.55 | Shirik | ok now THAT was bad |
| 12:14.05 | mikma | no it wasn't! |
| 12:14.07 | Shirik | I just put a CD into something that was not a CD slot |
| 12:14.19 | Rabbitbunny | take a nap. |
| 12:14.24 | Shirik | I missed the CD slot |
| 12:14.27 | Shirik | and it literally went in the computer |
| 12:14.35 | Wobin | Arrowmaster: One of my friends made a company named "Step 3" |
| 12:14.38 | Shirik | brb |
| 12:14.43 | Arrowmaster | haha |
| 12:14.52 | Arrowmaster | thats awesome |
| 12:15.05 | zenzio | I bet he put it into the floppy drive |
| 12:15.16 | Rabbitbunny | http://fukung.net/v/8297/67f09b799fd5d3e84d2529b1f1acb97a.jpg |
| 12:15.35 | Arrowmaster | oh man i cant stop laughing since i was already loling hard over http://www.fmylife.com/sex/465684 |
| 12:15.41 | Rabbitbunny | I did that once, slot load on a laptop, beer, i had to break a warranty. |
| 12:15.58 | *** join/#wowuidev foxlit (n=foxlit@0x573e6bae.alb2nxx18.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk) |
| 12:16.17 | *** join/#wowuidev foxlit|mac (n=foxlit@0x573e6bae.alb2nxx18.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk) |
| 12:27.07 | mikma | cairenn|afk: http://media.fukung.net/images/11853/c54565724012802874f632030cf55407.jpg |
| 12:27.41 | Kalroth | mikma: http://thecutest.info/top.html totally for you |
| 12:28.18 | mikma | kalroth: cool, wife gonna love that |
| 12:28.29 | Kalroth | riight, the "wife" |
| 12:28.33 | Kalroth | I hear you *wink*wink* |
| 12:28.52 | mikma | my hands are "girlfriends", not wifes ;) |
| 12:29.36 | *** join/#wowuidev JerekDain (n=JerekDai@71-82-124-81.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com) |
| 12:29.54 | *** join/#wowuidev Teomyr (i=teo@HSI-KBW-091-089-241-234.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de) |
| 12:30.07 | mikma | kalroth: the bunny i linked is there twice :I |
| 12:30.16 | Kalroth | it's SUPER cute |
| 12:31.55 | Arrowmaster | http://www.fmylife.com/miscellaneous/456719 |
| 12:41.58 | Arrowmaster | haha http://www.fmylife.com/miscellaneous/446685 |
| 12:42.02 | Arrowmaster | yes im bored |
| 12:44.18 | mikma | http://media.fukung.net/images/13480/53ebfe9dfaac2885928d85a482998bc1.jpg |
| 12:45.18 | *** join/#wowuidev alestane (n=nevin@c-76-24-240-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 12:45.18 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+v alestane] by ChanServ |
| 12:49.59 | Arrowmaster | humorous but deffently could be a lot worse http://www.fmylife.com/love/446324 |
| 12:53.32 | Wraithan | A past girlfriend of mine is bi-sexual, my parents discovered myspace and saw that she put her orientation as bi. They took me off to the side when the two of us had come to their house and asked if I knew... |
| 12:53.54 | Wraithan | More awkward than the sex talk |
| 12:54.14 | Arrowmaster | you should have just smiled |
| 12:54.15 | zenzio | so they didn't ask if you'd had a threesome? |
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| 12:58.12 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+v Lopeppeppy] by ChanServ |
| 12:58.14 | Wraithan | there a ldb addon that will track instance locklout |
| 12:58.21 | Wraithan | like too many instances an hour lockout |
| 12:59.04 | Legorol | Is the elementium smelting training in BWL working atm? |
| 13:02.29 | mikma | legorol: should be, grab a priest with you |
| 13:10.25 | *** join/#wowuidev spode (i=spode@213.21.89.60) |
| 13:15.53 | mikma | http://matin.maapallo.org/site.pl/selain/?c=viivijawagner |
| 13:16.20 | *** join/#wowuidev Anaral (n=Anaral@WoWUIDev/Norganna/QA-Manager/Anaral) |
| 13:16.26 | Wobin | rofl |
| 13:16.29 | Wobin | <3 Pooch: http://sinfest.net/comikaze/comics/2009-03-20.gif |
| 13:16.34 | mikma | frame 1) "my wallet and phone got stolen" 'good' |
| 13:16.44 | *** join/#wowuidev kd3 (n=kd3@wikia/kaydeethree) |
| 13:17.14 | mikma | frane 2) 'that puts an end to your gossips and shopping' |
| 13:18.00 | mikma | frame 3) "i couldn't buy your sauna-beer" 'hello, police? terrible things have happened' |
| 13:21.40 | *** join/#wowuidev Anaralx2 (n=Anaral@WoWUIDev/Norganna/QA-Manager/Anaral) |
| 13:22.50 | Wobin | >< |
| 13:22.51 | Wobin | http://thecutest.info/index.php?tid0=10180&tid1=14030&A=1 |
| 13:22.54 | Wobin | HOW CAN ONE CHOOSE? |
| 13:23.36 | Wraithan | http://www.engadget.com/2009/03/19/portland-customers-to-get-bundled-wimax-courtesy-of-comcast/ |
| 13:23.41 | Wraithan | < lives in portland |
| 13:24.24 | Wobin | I think my thought processes go hedgehog > ferret > bunny > kitten > puppy |
| 13:24.47 | Wraithan | easy on that one the penguins |
| 13:25.31 | Wobin | oh man, fox kit >< |
| 13:26.15 | Wobin | http://i.thefairest.info/cutest_thumbs/418smP.jpeg |
| 13:27.40 | *** join/#wowuidev cncfanatics (n=cncfanat@WoWUIDev/cncfanatics) |
| 13:34.06 | Wobin | hehe http://i.gizmodo.com/5173385/shuttle+riding-bat-dies-the-most-glorious-death-imaginable |
| 13:35.08 | Lopeppeppy | Poor little guy |
| 13:35.19 | *** join/#wowuidev Shirik|Berry (n=Shirik|B@conspiracy/developer/Shirik) |
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| 13:43.54 | alestane | I feel a little bad for the bat, but I find their attempt to make it sound glorious slightly touching nonetheless. |
| 13:46.15 | Lopeppeppy | Yeah... well... romanticizing animal behavior isn't high on my list of great ideas. |
| 13:46.59 | alestane | No, trly the bat's last thoughts were probably more along the lines of "WTF?" |
| 13:48.37 | Lopeppeppy | What's the last thing to go through a bug's head as it hits the car windshield? |
| 13:48.52 | alestane | The glass? |
| 13:49.05 | *** join/#wowuidev Beefy (n=Beef@93-96-60-120.zone4.bethere.co.uk) |
| 13:49.09 | foxlit|mac | It probably doesn't |
| 13:49.32 | Lopeppeppy | It's rear. :P |
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| 13:52.40 | Eiszapfen | hi there! |
| 13:52.51 | Lopeppeppy | Morning. |
| 13:52.54 | alestane | Hello. |
| 13:53.16 | Eiszapfen | can anyone here help me with a very simple lua question? i hope it is simpel.. |
| 13:53.22 | alestane | ~asktoask |
| 13:53.23 | purl | This is IRC. Don't ask to ask a question. Just ask your question and if someone's around, they'll be glad to help. |
| 13:53.34 | Eiszapfen | i want to have some kind of input box called from within a macro |
| 13:53.52 | Eiszapfen | something like /script local answer = inputbox("message") |
| 13:53.57 | Eiszapfen | is this possible? |
| 13:54.26 | Eiszapfen | i have only found the message command but there a user cannot enter text |
| 13:54.51 | alestane | It's somewhat possible, but restrictions on the macro system make it very hard or impossible to do it in a useful way. |
| 13:55.07 | Eiszapfen | hm |
| 13:55.26 | Legorol | does the goblin in BWL still have the elementium smelting training? |
| 13:56.10 | alestane | A macro is meant to run all at once, and suspends the rest of the game while it's running. I don't think you'd be able to enter any text into your box...the macro would just freeze the game, instead. |
| 13:56.12 | *** join/#wowuidev jduke (n=chatzill@65.207.45.210) |
| 13:56.48 | Lopeppeppy | What did you want to do inside the box, perhaps there's another way to do what you're looking for? |
| 13:57.03 | Legorol | alestane: you can't even do that, there are no "blocking" io methods in WoW |
| 13:57.09 | alestane | Yes, what did you intend to do with the answer value. |
| 13:57.14 | Legorol | the only way to block would be with a deliberate loop |
| 13:57.20 | Eiszapfen | i want to print the itemlink of a given itemid in a chatwindow |
| 13:58.01 | alestane | I would recommend, then, using a small add-on to make an edit box with a "print" button. |
| 13:58.05 | Eiszapfen | my idea was /script local answer=input("itemid"); local a,b = GetItemInfo(answer); ChatFrame1:AddMessage(b) |
| 13:58.07 | Legorol | Eiszapfen, a simple (albeit possibly cumbersome) solution is to make the macro, and leave a place for the ID in it |
| 13:58.17 | Legorol | any time you want to use it, just enter the ID into the macro |
| 13:58.22 | Lopeppeppy | As in... a trade skill announcement or "I'm selling this" announcement? |
| 13:58.27 | Legorol | for example: |
| 13:58.42 | Legorol | <PROTECTED> |
| 13:59.45 | Eiszapfen | yes i think i have to do it like that, but I thought the other way is nicer :) |
| 13:59.57 | Legorol | for the other way, you need a fullfledged addon |
| 14:00.19 | Legorol | or if you can compress its code, you might be able to fit it in a macro, but would be pushing it |
| 14:00.23 | *** join/#wowuidev Druidicbeast (n=Druidicb@65.207.45.210) |
| 14:00.38 | Legorol | actually, here is a good solution Eiszapfen: |
| 14:00.43 | Legorol | write a macro like this |
| 14:01.10 | Legorol | <PROTECTED> |
| 14:01.16 | Legorol | run that macro once |
| 14:01.26 | Legorol | from that point on, you just need to type /script MyCoolFunction(1235) |
| 14:01.30 | Legorol | and you get your link |
| 14:01.37 | Legorol | this gets pretty close to direct input |
| 14:01.48 | Eiszapfen | yes that would be ok |
| 14:02.14 | Legorol | unfortunatley you have to run the macro that sets up the function once every time you log in |
| 14:02.22 | Eiszapfen | and would it probably be feasible to execute this macro on login automatically? |
| 14:02.26 | [draco] | you could put that in an addon, though |
| 14:02.34 | Lopeppeppy | Nothing can be do automagically, Eiszapfen. |
| 14:02.39 | Legorol | that needs an addon |
| 14:02.49 | Legorol | a very simple addon would do, though |
| 14:02.58 | Eiszapfen | or the other way, IF i would put this in an addon would this somehow need more resources than loading it per macro ? |
| 14:03.09 | Legorol | MyAddon.toc: ## Interface: 300000, ## Title: MyAddon |
| 14:03.22 | Legorol | MyAddon.toc: ## Interface: 300000, ## Title: MyAddon, MyAddon.lua (each comma is a new line) |
| 14:03.31 | Legorol | MyAddon.lua: function MyCoolFunction(id) blah blah end |
| 14:03.46 | alestane | Eiszapfen: No, it wouldn't. Either way it has to load that function into memory. But the cost should be negligible. |
| 14:03.48 | Legorol | put these two files (.toc and .lua) in Interface/AddOns/MyAddon |
| 14:03.50 | Legorol | that's it |
| 14:03.58 | mikma | or |
| 14:04.02 | mikma | install hack |
| 14:04.09 | mikma | and run the code ingame |
| 14:04.16 | Legorol | O.o what hack |
| 14:04.28 | [draco] | hack is an ingame text editor |
| 14:04.37 | [draco] | with the ability to run code |
| 14:04.41 | Eiszapfen | thats an addon where i can write macros with higer length? |
| 14:04.42 | mikma | !addon hack |
| 14:04.44 | Eiszapfen | ah ok |
| 14:04.48 | lua_bot | Found 57 addon results for 'hack': http://is.gd/obQD |
| 14:05.13 | mikma | hack also has ability to run certain code at login |
| 14:05.22 | alestane | It's a common fallacy that macros are inherently higher-performance than add-ons. The greater resources consumed by most add-ons are dedicated mostly to enhanced features or customizability, whereas macros have to stay very simple and customized. |
| 14:06.08 | Eiszapfen | ok thanks very much, it was you were really helpful :) |
| 14:06.22 | mikma | http://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/info11101-Hack.html |
| 14:06.36 | mikma | the newest TinyPad is cool too |
| 14:06.49 | mikma | you can save other peoples tradeskills therre |
| 14:06.59 | mikma | and items, spells... |
| 14:07.26 | mikma | ttp://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/info4417-TinyPad.html |
| 14:07.31 | *** join/#wowuidev Beladona (n=Beladona@24.129.136.26) |
| 14:07.31 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o Beladona] by ChanServ |
| 14:08.09 | mikma | hi bela! |
| 14:08.57 | mikma | of course there's also jnwhiteh's baby, http://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/info7366-WowLua.html |
| 14:09.14 | mikma | it has line numbers in, which is <3 |
| 14:09.17 | *** join/#wowuidev selckin (n=selckin@unaffiliated/axxo) |
| 14:14.03 | foxlit | http://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/info11481-GraphPaper.html |
| 14:14.15 | foxlit | (a) 83kb! (b) Wasn't there something else that did exactly that? |
| 14:14.30 | mikma | something Grid |
| 14:14.54 | Lopeppeppy | Align? |
| 14:15.03 | mikma | align! |
| 14:15.09 | Lopeppeppy | *nod* |
| 14:15.10 | mikma | good one lopeppeppy |
| 14:15.17 | Lopeppeppy | I use it all the time. :) |
| 14:15.38 | [draco] | align doesn't have an option screen, though |
| 14:15.51 | [draco] | so that's probably where the 82kb come from |
| 14:15.56 | Lopeppeppy | No. It just puts the grid of lines in place for you to use. |
| 14:16.54 | *** join/#wowuidev kd3 (n=kd3@wikia/kaydeethree) |
| 14:17.18 | foxlit | 312kb worth of libs |
| 14:17.27 | mikma | hahaa |
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| 14:54.12 | foxlit | Whee, circles |
| 14:55.02 | Lopeppeppy | No circles. |
| 14:55.06 | Lopeppeppy | Elliptical orbits! |
| 14:55.22 | foxlit | Meh, that'd mean i'd be getting closer to the answer at some point |
| 14:55.32 | foxlit | the equivalent of function(object, method) local m = object[method]; object2.method = function() return m(); end end in Java is annoying |
| 15:01.56 | foxlit | Behold the abomination: http://pastey.net/110570 |
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| 15:02.25 | ZorbaGama | I have to admit, for something as concise and simple as lua is, I've really come to think it's a very well-designed language |
| 15:02.52 | ZorbaGama | there's a few things I'm still not a big fan of, but overall I really like how easy it is to just fling functions and upvalues around like a madman |
| 15:03.22 | cogwheel | its vararg handling is pretty ftw too imo |
| 15:03.36 | cog|work | and tables... <3 |
| 15:03.42 | foxlit | and ftl at the same time |
| 15:04.01 | ZorbaGama | I'm not a *huge* fan of its vararg support - one of the few things that bugs me consistently about it is how there's not even function-parameter-count checking |
| 15:04.05 | krka | i mostly like the lexically scoped closures |
| 15:04.07 | ZorbaGama | and it seems nontrivial to introduce it |
| 15:04.29 | foxlit | assert it if you care. |
| 15:04.29 | ZorbaGama | but it's livable, and yeah, the lexically scoped closures are absolute gold |
| 15:04.44 | ZorbaGama | foxlit, even asserting it isn't trivial - I can't assert that there are no extra parameters |
| 15:04.53 | ZorbaGama | hell, I can't even detect math.sqrt(15, nil, nil, nil, nil, nil) |
| 15:04.59 | krka | lexically scoped closures seem fairly rare in languages |
| 15:04.59 | ZorbaGama | (at least, AFAIK I can't) |
| 15:04.59 | cog|work | sure you can |
| 15:05.02 | cog|work | accept ... |
| 15:05.07 | cog|work | and do select("#", ...) |
| 15:05.21 | ZorbaGama | cog, but they're all nil. will it even show up? |
| 15:05.24 | cog|work | yep |
| 15:05.35 | cog|work | nils are different from unprovided arguments |
| 15:05.46 | ZorbaGama | huh, interesting. I thought it just considered them to be nonexistent in that case - is ... something other than a table, then? |
| 15:05.50 | Cairenn|afk | awwww, cute bunnies! |
| 15:05.58 | cog|work | lua> function foo(...) print(select("#", ...)) end foo() foo(nil) |
| 15:05.58 | lua_bot | cog|work: 0, 1 |
| 15:06.13 | cog|work | yes, it's not a table |
| 15:06.26 | ZorbaGama | wacky. alright then, thanks for letting me know :) |
| 15:06.31 | foxlit | lua> t = {}; table.insert(t,nil); return #t; |
| 15:06.32 | lua_bot | foxlit: 0 |
| 15:06.35 | foxlit | qq! |
| 15:08.02 | ZorbaGama | I also kind of wish there was an equivalent to _G for "this scope", but ah well |
| 15:08.18 | ZorbaGama | as I understand it, there's good reasons why there isn't. |
| 15:08.28 | cog|work | you're confusing locals with globals |
| 15:08.50 | ZorbaGama | I'm not really confusing them, I just occasionally want to be able to address locals by their names |
| 15:08.57 | ZorbaGama | and there's no way to do that |
| 15:09.01 | cog|work | that's what tables are for ;) |
| 15:09.11 | ZorbaGama | yeah, I don't want to jam this stuff into a table ;) |
| 15:09.23 | foxlit | what you're asking for is essentially creating a table anyway |
| 15:09.26 | ZorbaGama | it's just a wish. I admit that it's probably not worth the trouble of providing it. |
| 15:09.32 | cog|work | _G is just a table |
| 15:09.51 | cog|work | the only difference is that Lua knows to look there when it wants to find a global |
| 15:10.06 | foxlit | (local variable names aren't stored -- they're just assigned some internal ID) |
| 15:10.28 | ZorbaGama | foxlit, yeah, if this were to be implemented, it'd need to make a lookup table at the same time (assuming the performance of locals was to be preserved) |
| 15:10.33 | krka | Lua doesn't look in _G, it looks in the current closures environment |
| 15:10.42 | krka | _G may or may not point ot the same environment |
| 15:11.06 | foxlit | I'm so going to claim that's another one of krka's bot responses. |
| 15:11.46 | krka | foxlit: krka is an awesome developer, not a bot. |
| 15:11.57 | cog|work | LUA |
| 15:12.03 | cog|work | poo |
| 15:12.09 | foxlit | on a stick! |
| 15:12.09 | krka | cog|work: The name of the language is Lua, not LUA. :-D |
| 15:12.16 | cog|work | krka: slow! |
| 15:12.17 | cog|work | :P |
| 15:12.33 | cog|work | (irc lag perhaps? ;) ) |
| 15:13.26 | foxlit | probably purposeful |
| 15:13.42 | foxlit | Though krka's ping is unimpressive :) |
| 15:13.52 | alestane | http://nodwick.humor.gamespy.com/gamespyarchive/index.php?date=2006-09-20 Gotta start somewhere. |
| 15:14.05 | krka | foxlit: krka is always impressive. :-D |
| 15:16.35 | Arrowmaster | ZorbaGama: you should take a look at the debug library, it offers a lot of that but blizz doesnt let us have access to it in wow |
| 15:17.12 | AckisWork | Arrowmaster: libdebug? |
| 15:17.27 | Arrowmaster | no the standard builtin debug |
| 15:17.42 | AckisWork | ah |
| 15:18.04 | Arrowmaster | they call it the debug library like string.* is the string library |
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| 15:18.24 | Fisker- | wanna make out Arrowmaster ? |
| 15:18.37 | Arrowmaster | no |
| 15:19.14 | AckisWork | Fisker-: hands off he's mine |
| 15:19.50 | ZorbaGama | arrow, yeah, sadly I want to do it in WoW ;) |
| 15:20.31 | Arrowmaster | there are good reasons not to have it though |
| 15:20.47 | Arrowmaster | ckknight put a metatable on nil with it in something he was working on |
| 15:21.06 | Arrowmaster | thats just evil |
| 15:21.08 | ckknight | yea, I made nil act as an empty tuple |
| 15:21.29 | ckknight | (I was working on a lisp-esque functional library for lua) |
| 15:21.49 | ckknight | it was interesting, but then I just made a seperate empty tuple thing |
| 15:22.34 | Adys | is there an addon that lists achievements by raid boss? |
| 15:24.01 | AckisWork | Adys: yes |
| 15:24.06 | Adys | which? |
| 15:24.20 | AckisWork | Adys: http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/overachiever.aspx |
| 15:24.28 | AckisWork | well it's not raid boss sorry |
| 15:24.29 | AckisWork | it's zone |
| 15:24.33 | AckisWork | aka all of naxx |
| 15:25.01 | AckisWork | it's under the suggestions tab, it'll list all the achievements for the instance that you don't have yet |
| 15:25.51 | Adys | thats a sexy addon |
| 15:26.06 | AckisWork | yah I like it lots |
| 15:26.12 | AckisWork | i want to have babies with it |
| 15:29.24 | amro | AckisWork: would those be plugins? |
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| 15:36.57 | mikma | so people are posting incorrect stats in wws and telling that wws has a bug with lifebloom... |
| 15:37.15 | mikma | people using lifebloom (topping healing meters) are positioned like last in heals |
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| 15:45.17 | *** join/#wowuidev Etanol (n=gamle-go@hus134a.bobbnet.com) |
| 15:45.24 | Etanol | hello :-) |
| 15:46.09 | zenzelezz | hai |
| 15:46.13 | cog|work | no u! |
| 15:46.37 | Etanol | Quick question: does tremove take associative array keys? |
| 15:46.45 | *** join/#wowuidev spode (i=spode@213.21.89.60) |
| 15:46.47 | cog|work | no |
| 15:46.51 | Etanol | damn |
| 15:46.55 | cog|work | why damn? |
| 15:47.00 | cog|work | t.foo = nil |
| 15:47.19 | Etanol | yeah, but then the key will still exist |
| 15:47.22 | cog|work | no |
| 15:47.27 | Etanol | you sure? |
| 15:47.38 | cog|work | yes |
| 15:47.44 | AckisWork | positive? |
| 15:47.46 | cog|work | no |
| 15:47.52 | AckisWork | do you have a random mount macro/ |
| 15:47.56 | cog|work | yes |
| 15:48.02 | AckisWork | can i has? |
| 15:48.04 | cog|work | no |
| 15:48.05 | cog|work | :P |
| 15:48.13 | Etanol | thanks |
| 15:48.58 | AckisWork | cog|work: the irony is I don't even use a random mount macro anymore hehe :P |
| 15:49.59 | cog|work | I don't use mine either |
| 15:50.11 | cog|work | i love my blizzard bear and flying machine too much |
| 15:50.52 | Arrowmaster | even my blizzard bear isnt that rare but i still use it |
| 15:51.16 | Arrowmaster | i guess if i wanted to use a rare mount i would get out my razashi raptor and get stuck in doorways again |
| 15:51.19 | AckisWork | i use my blizzard bear over my spectral tiger :( |
| 15:51.45 | cog|work | lua> for k,v in pairs({x = 1, y = nil, z = 1}) do print(k,v) end |
| 15:51.45 | lua_bot | cog|work: x, 1, z, 1 |
| 15:51.50 | AckisWork | but I use my rocket!!! |
| 15:51.51 | cog|work | Etanol: ^ |
| 15:52.31 | AckisWork | do you know if they're adding some flag to check if it's a nofly zone yet? |
| 15:52.41 | AckisWork | cuz that would be suuuppper |
| 15:52.51 | cog|work | mmmm... supper |
| 15:52.54 | Etanol | lua hates me :/ |
| 15:53.08 | cog|work | Etanol: no it just misunderstands you ;P |
| 15:53.20 | Arrowmaster | AckisWork: now much money have you spent on TCG codes? |
| 15:53.29 | AckisWork | Arrowmaster: under $1000 |
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| 15:53.37 | Arrowmaster | buy me an ony kite |
| 15:53.40 | AckisWork | Arrowmaster: I spent $1000ish on the original CE though |
| 15:53.51 | cog|work | AckisWork: i've hardly even logged in over the last couple months let alone kept up on things like that >< |
| 15:54.03 | AckisWork | plus prolly $5kish on boxes of cards to play/collect |
| 15:54.05 | AckisWork | cog|work: awww :( |
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| 15:54.30 | Arrowmaster | cog|work: seems a few of us are like that now |
| 15:54.59 | Etanol | I use a for k,v in pairs(table) do print end, but it gives no error and prints nothing.. |
| 15:55.08 | Etanol | might it be because the array is an ace db? |
| 15:55.09 | AckisWork | I got my 1000 daily achievement done last night |
| 15:55.18 | cog|work | Etanol: you're not using print correctly |
| 15:55.23 | Etanol | I know |
| 15:55.24 | cog|work | if that's your actual code |
| 15:55.28 | Etanol | its not |
| 15:55.47 | cog|work | if it doesn't print anything then your table is empty |
| 15:55.59 | cog|work | or something broke your print function :P |
| 15:56.12 | Etanol | for key,value in pairs(self.db.realm.snapshots) do self:Print(ChatFrame1, key ..".".. value) end |
| 15:56.18 | Etanol | ace3 printing |
| 15:56.31 | Etanol | the print rows above it outputs as normal |
| 15:56.36 | Etanol | but nu that line |
| 15:58.21 | Etanol | the snapshots table has around 15 keys |
| 15:58.22 | Etanol | so |
| 15:58.26 | cog|work | then snapshots is empty, or the key/value pairs aren't numbers/strings |
| 15:58.40 | cog|work | but that should give you an error |
| 15:58.53 | Etanol | might it be because snapshots only contains tables? |
| 15:58.56 | cog|work | yes |
| 15:59.00 | cog|work | you can't print a table |
| 15:59.09 | Etanol | but I can print the table names |
| 15:59.16 | cog|work | or more to the point, if value is a table then key.."."..value is invalid |
| 15:59.19 | Etanol | and if I try to print a table it shows: "TABLE:592874239" |
| 15:59.32 | mikma | for k,v in pairs(Tablename) do print(k,v) end |
| 15:59.34 | cog|work | printing a table and concatenating a table are different |
| 15:59.35 | Etanol | tried with only the key before, same result |
| 15:59.44 | cog|work | lua> print({}) |
| 15:59.44 | lua_bot | cog|work: table: 0x80aaaf8 |
| 16:00.00 | cog|work | lua> print("hi".. ({})) |
| 16:00.01 | lua_bot | cog|work: luabot:1: attempt to concatenate a table value |
| 16:00.23 | mikma | meh |
| 16:00.24 | cog|work | Etanol: try using teh built-in print function |
| 16:00.28 | mikma | looks like goatse imho |
| 16:00.41 | Etanol | DEFAULTCHATFRAME_ADDMESSAGE, or what? |
| 16:00.56 | cog|work | print... |
| 16:00.58 | mikma | print("foo") |
| 16:01.02 | Etanol | aha ^^ |
| 16:01.51 | cog|work | i will be amused if it's ace's fault :> |
| 16:02.00 | mikma | it's always ACE's fault |
| 16:02.22 | Etanol | attempt to call global 'Print' (a nil value) |
| 16:02.36 | mikma | cog|work: this always makes me laugh: http://www.ac3comfort.com/ |
| 16:02.41 | durcyn | print() lower case, man. |
| 16:02.42 | AckisWork | god damned ACE it doesn't know LUA or how to do random mount macros! |
| 16:02.44 | krka | AckisWork: Whenever someone writes Lua in upper case, god kills a kitten. :( :-) |
| 16:02.53 | AckisWork | hahahahhaha |
| 16:03.01 | AckisWork | lua> print("LUA") |
| 16:03.02 | lua_bot | AckisWork: LUA |
| 16:03.46 | Etanol | ok, I am VERY close to giving up lua for good |
| 16:04.08 | Etanol | not it only prints the most recent key added |
| 16:04.19 | durcyn | it did what you told it to. |
| 16:04.29 | Etanol | now* |
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| 16:06.29 | Etanol | aha |
| 16:06.32 | Etanol | it actually works |
| 16:06.49 | Etanol | I just replace the whole DB with the new data every time I insert data ^^ |
| 16:06.52 | Etanol | smart |
| 16:08.53 | amro | happens |
| 16:09.07 | amro | and get devtools already |
| 16:09.09 | amro | ~devtools |
| 16:09.10 | purl | Iriel's DevTools, a highly useful set of debugging tools for developers on WoW. Found at http://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/fileinfo.php?id=3999 Why isn't it in the default client yet? |
| 16:10.32 | AckisWork | so any smrt cookies here know about ms excel and how I could make some smart decisions with the data I have? |
| 16:10.37 | Etanol | I see no use in it that would help me, except for maybe dump ^^ |
| 16:11.01 | Etanol | ackis, like what? |
| 16:11.02 | durcyn | AckisWork: stop using excel |
| 16:11.14 | amro | durcyn++ |
| 16:11.31 | NightHawkTheSane | http://www.overheardintheoffice.com/archives/008753.html |
| 16:11.53 | AckisWork | durcyn: eh why? it works nicely :P |
| 16:12.08 | durcyn | don't countertroll my troll, sir |
| 16:12.11 | durcyn | that's just impolite. |
| 16:12.18 | AckisWork | :P |
| 16:16.30 | AckisWork | well durcyn do you know how to make drop down menu's? :P |
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| 16:23.26 | Adys | http://garfieldminusgarfield.net/post/88188243 |
| 16:24.40 | mikma | i love battle for the undercity |
| 16:24.48 | mikma | i've been killed 6 times now during the event |
| 16:25.11 | foxlit | failma! |
| 16:25.35 | mikma | i can't help it |
| 16:25.41 | mikma | bosses keep oneshotting me |
| 16:25.57 | durcyn | isn't that the one you can afk through because the npcs do all the work |
| 16:26.29 | Druidicbeast | pretty sure it is |
| 16:26.41 | mikma | yeah, except the bosses still oneshot me |
| 16:26.46 | Druidicbeast | I honestly didn't think you could die |
| 16:27.39 | foxlit | your failure quotient is higher than the designers anticipated |
| 16:27.53 | mikma | putress slapped me around 68k damage |
| 16:27.59 | foxlit | It's as if nature has just built a better idiot to their idiot-proof encounter :) |
| 16:28.02 | mikma | then went to king.. |
| 16:28.28 | foxlit | I suppose you ignored the "stay behind me" shouts? :) |
| 16:28.47 | mikma | i *was* behind him |
| 16:28.51 | mikma | yet bosses loved me :D |
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| 16:41.27 | Etanol | any easy way to create and update a dropdown menu? |
| 16:41.45 | foxlit | "easy" |
| 16:41.53 | Etanol | you know, like a select element in html code |
| 16:42.01 | Etanol | yeah, "easy" like creating a button |
| 16:42.48 | foxlit | EasyMenu might work. |
| 16:43.09 | foxlit | On the other hand, the default API is "easy", too |
| 16:45.40 | Etanol | I can't find dropdown frame derivate or w/e |
| 16:45.48 | *** part/#wowuidev Dark_Elf (i=Dark_Elf@206.169.253.47) |
| 16:45.49 | Etanol | on wowwiki |
| 16:46.04 | foxlit | http://www.wowwiki.com/Using_UIDropDownMenu |
| 16:46.53 | foxlit | But basically, dropdown menus aren't a primary widget type -- rather, there's a few hundred lines worth of code shipped with the default UI that makes stuff pretend to be a dropdown menu. |
| 16:47.11 | Etanol | haha |
| 16:47.19 | foxlit | So no <select> -- it's <div> and javascript country where you're going :) |
| 16:47.29 | Etanol | is it possible in lua? |
| 16:47.44 | foxlit | No, I was merely extending an analogy |
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| 16:48.10 | foxlit | (on the other hand, yes, it's possible to make something that looks and behaves like a dropdown menu) |
| 16:49.50 | mikma | *gosh*, xml sgut |
| 16:49.50 | mikma | s/sgut/shit/ |
| 16:49.50 | mikma | lolo |
| 16:49.51 | Etanol | That is not the menu I am thinking of... I mean a "button", with a text label, and when you click on it it expans down into a list. When you click a list item, the button label updates to reflect this |
| 16:49.51 | Etanol | a select, or w/e |
| 16:49.53 | foxlit | That's exactly what that is |
| 16:49.57 | foxlit | granted, the screenshots are a bit meh |
| 16:50.22 | Etanol | so, I have to use xml? |
| 16:51.16 | foxlit | Not unless you count inheriting from a template as using XML. |
| 16:51.43 | Etanol | is there such a template? |
| 16:51.53 | foxlit | Most of the example XML code is basically binding handlers to widgets |
| 16:52.11 | foxlit | Scroll down to http://www.wowwiki.com/Using_UIDropDownMenu#HOWTO:_nested_submenu_structures_with_UIDropDownMenu |
| 16:52.48 | foxlit | on the other hand, that seems unduly focused on menus. |
| 16:53.33 | foxlit | "UIDropDownMenuTemplate" is the template you're looking for |
| 16:53.47 | foxlit | Just don't pass "MENU" to the initialize function |
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| 16:54.45 | Etanol | -_- |
| 16:54.47 | Etanol | thanks |
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| 16:59.13 | Etanol | I'm looking for a way to update the menu too |
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| 17:03.11 | *** join/#wowuidev Kaso (n=Kaso@78.151.177.107) |
| 17:05.57 | Etanol | function to get character name? |
| 17:05.59 | Etanol | or global |
| 17:06.10 | ArrowmasterClass | UnitName("player") |
| 17:06.54 | Etanol | thanks |
| 17:09.05 | mikma | wutlol |
| 17:09.10 | mikma | ~wowbible |
| 17:09.11 | purl | somebody said wowbible was http://wowprogramming.com/docs |
| 17:11.32 | p3lim | what kind of table does AceConfig-3.0 work with with the 'select' (dropdown) type? |
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| 17:14.05 | NeoTron | whichever |
| 17:14.32 | NeoTron | rather { "opt 1", "opt 2" } works as does { key = "value", key2 = "value" } |
| 17:19.43 | Etanol | why didnt blizzard make it a LITTLE bit easier to make frames? ^^ |
| 17:21.56 | p3lim | thanks NeoTron |
| 17:22.02 | p3lim | Etanol: its easy enough |
| 17:22.09 | p3lim | as long they aint gonna be secure |
| 17:22.19 | p3lim | there are reasons why that would be a bit tricky |
| 17:22.20 | amro | I don't see how it could get any easier |
| 17:22.51 | foxlit | I see how it could be easier |
| 17:22.58 | foxlit | But at the same time, I see why they didn't. |
| 17:23.08 | foxlit | Repeat after me: L-A-Z-Y :) |
| 17:23.35 | amro | foxlit: what's easier than CreateFrame()? |
| 17:24.03 | Adys | CreateFrameEasily() |
| 17:25.08 | mikma | local easy = CreateFrame("Frame") |
| 17:25.11 | foxlit | amro: except CreateFrame() gets you virtually nothing. |
| 17:25.41 | foxlit | Congratulations, you've made a frame widget. Now create all of the textures, font strings, sub-frames and define every other behavior you want for it |
| 17:26.07 | amro | foxlit: yeah, what of it? |
| 17:26.15 | amro | still easier than most GUIs |
| 17:26.29 | amro | if it's tedious, it's because all GUIs are tedious to make without a designer |
| 17:26.30 | foxlit | most != all, thank you for conceding :) |
| 17:27.05 | amro | only reason I said most is because the "others" have designers |
| 17:29.18 | Adys | foxlit: on a honest question |
| 17:29.27 | Adys | do you know the purpose of the ":)" smiley? |
| 17:29.54 | Adys | it's when you're trying to be nice to someone, as in - totally opposite of sarcastic jerk |
| 17:30.00 | mikma | its one of those sideway characters |
| 17:30.29 | mikma | i hate almost everyone in here .) |
| 17:30.35 | Adys | ~fail mikma |
| 17:30.36 | purl | mikma, you Fail! |
| 17:30.36 | mikma | failshift |
| 17:30.40 | foxlit | If you're trying to be nice to someone, what do you need a smiley for, unless you're failing horribly at it? |
| 17:31.07 | amro | foxlit: you wouldn't know |
| 17:31.10 | Adys | don't even try to justify that |
| 17:31.29 | foxlit | Adys: the purpose, really, is to let you know that I'm not being entirely serious. |
| 17:31.36 | foxlit | Take from that what you will. |
| 17:31.53 | mikma | i kill you |
| 17:32.08 | Legorol | foxlit, you can try hard, but you can't hide your fluffy bunny inner heart |
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| 17:45.50 | Etanol | hm |
| 17:46.17 | Etanol | ace3 uses control:SetMultiselect(true) |
| 17:46.29 | Etanol | is that a built-in function? |
| 17:47.20 | alestane | Since I can't think of any native widget that has that capability, probably not. |
| 17:47.39 | Etanol | :/ |
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| 18:03.26 | Lopeppeppy | Ackis -- http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15864257044&sid=1 |
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| 18:05.39 | Etanol | blizzard hates the idea of dropdown menus, right? |
| 18:06.09 | alestane | They use them frequently themselves. |
| 18:06.17 | *** join/#wowuidev spode (n=spode@213.21.89.60) |
| 18:06.31 | alestane | Hence why there are templates built into the stock UI. |
| 18:07.25 | Etanol | where can I learn more about them then? |
| 18:09.28 | AckisWork | http://www.beckett.com/estore/news/?eskin=subMOG&a=10092&s=51 <-- contest for a wow stein |
| 18:11.08 | AckisWork | so I'm trying to get out of a parking ticket... I finally filed a "complaint" about it, but apparently my court date is gonna be in like 2 weeks heh |
| 18:12.21 | Esamynn | cog|work: ping |
| 18:12.27 | alestane | Etanol: http://wowcompares.com/3099551/FrameXML/UIDropDownMenu.lua I haven't seen much other documentation except maybe in wowprogramming. |
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| 18:13.57 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+v Tekkub] by ChanServ |
| 18:15.26 | Etanol | what is "tainted" code? |
| 18:15.35 | cog|work | Esamynn: pong |
| 18:15.59 | Duman | hmm |
| 18:16.27 | jnwhiteh | alestane: I just got done writing the new chapter, it's really good =) |
| 18:16.50 | jnwhiteh | lots changed in the new version of the template :P |
| 18:16.56 | jnwhiteh | Etanol: http://forums.wowace.com/showthread.php?t=15763 |
| 18:17.06 | Esamynn | cog|work: just wondering, did you attack me while I was sitting in the spacedock sectory last night? |
| 18:17.15 | Esamynn | s/sectory/sector/ |
| 18:17.21 | Etanol | thanks jnwhiteh! <3 |
| 18:17.25 | cog|work | Esamynn: yeah... then shirik blew me up :P |
| 18:17.39 | Esamynn | cog|work: yes, I was there for that, if he hadn't my attack would have ;) |
| 18:17.49 | Esamynn | I was just wondering where I lost 10k fighters ;) |
| 18:17.58 | cog|work | rawr! |
| 18:18.05 | Esamynn | Yar! |
| 18:18.42 | cog|work | you know, as an evil person, I seem to be at a disadvantage in every way except money-making/turn |
| 18:19.06 | Esamynn | I think that's the idea |
| 18:19.21 | alestane | I've seen evil conquer a TradeWars universe, but that was because they all teamed up on us. |
| 18:19.24 | cog|work | so i can mount a bunch of small-scale assaults more quickly, but you're more likely to kick my ass in one go |
| 18:19.47 | Esamynn | you could always get an Interdictor Cruiser |
| 18:20.02 | cog|work | heh |
| 18:20.26 | cog|work | trouble is my money making just destroys my xp |
| 18:20.40 | Esamynn | maybe you are stealing too much |
| 18:20.47 | Esamynn | have you looked at the formulas? |
| 18:21.21 | cog|work | i'm using the ssm script and i haven't changed any of the settings for bust rates |
| 18:21.36 | cog|work | so it should be giving me the optimum odds |
| 18:21.58 | Esamynn | how often are you getting busted? |
| 18:22.14 | Esamynn | my understanding is that if you're doing it right, your bust rate should be about 2% |
| 18:22.31 | cog|work | i'd have to get busted <1% in order to net gain xp |
| 18:22.48 | Esamynn | ahh |
| 18:22.50 | cog|work | it takes 10% of my xp each bust |
| 18:22.54 | Esamynn | really? |
| 18:22.57 | Esamynn | ouch |
| 18:23.04 | cog|work | and i only get 7xp per rob |
| 18:23.07 | Esamynn | at least now you have someone to bust clear for you ;) |
| 18:23.20 | cog|work | at least it seems like 10% |
| 18:23.25 | cog|work | usually it's ~700xp |
| 18:23.30 | Esamynn | yah, I think it's 10% |
| 18:24.19 | cog|work | the movecol script blew me up trying to twarp to sector 1 :'( |
| 18:24.34 | cog|work | i think i did samething wrong in the parameters i gave it |
| 18:24.41 | cog|work | something* |
| 18:24.46 | Esamynn | oh yuck :( |
| 18:25.05 | Esamynn | maybe it assumes you are good, and can warp into Fed Space? |
| 18:25.37 | ArrowmasterClass | isnt MoveCol a pack1 script? |
| 18:25.43 | cog|work | err... 2_col |
| 18:25.52 | Esamynn | I've been digging into the scripts, I intend to improve a couple of them |
| 18:25.52 | ArrowmasterClass | i thought the pack1 scripts were mostly dumb and the pack2 ones were smarter |
| 18:25.56 | cog|work | or something |
| 18:26.25 | Esamynn | for example, 2_Col uses the game to calculate fuel costs, instead of the local database, and so gets it wrong sometimes due to avoids |
| 18:27.07 | Esamynn | lol |
| 18:27.25 | ArrowmasterClass | youve lost 4 ships already? |
| 18:27.50 | cog|work | 4 corporate flagships |
| 18:27.57 | cog|work | i've lost a few others besides |
| 18:28.11 | Esamynn | "cogwheel's Corporate FlagShip was destroyed by atomic fusion!" HAHA! |
| 18:28.23 | Lopeppeppy | Ouch. |
| 18:28.57 | alestane | Arriving inside a solid object? |
| 18:29.04 | Esamynn | yah |
| 18:29.06 | cog|work | yep. |
| 18:29.14 | Esamynn | that's what happens if you Twarp without a fighter or beacon |
| 18:29.17 | cog|work | twarped me right into terra |
| 18:29.21 | Esamynn | unless the sector is 100% empty |
| 18:29.26 | cog|work | or into fedspace as ebildoer |
| 18:30.01 | Esamynn | nah, if you could find a completely empty fed space sector... which of course you can't ;) |
| 18:32.07 | Esamynn | cog|work: I find this highly amusing ;) |
| 18:32.08 | Esamynn | Deep Sprocket 9 construction advanced. |
| 18:32.10 | Esamynn | Deep Space 9 construction advanced. |
| 18:32.12 | Esamynn | I named mine after I'd just finished watching a DS9 episode ;) |
| 18:32.29 | ArrowmasterClass | Deep Sprocket 9 is zoots |
| 18:32.57 | Esamynn | ArrowmasterClass: well yes |
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| 18:52.51 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o Shirik|Berry] by ChanServ |
| 18:53.43 | ScytheBlade1 | Shirik|Berry: it looked like a fun command |
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| 19:00.53 | Lopeppeppy | I spy, with my little eye, Specialist Cogwheel!! |
| 19:01.09 | cog|work | i did... favors for her ... :> |
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| 19:02.45 | mikma | i am amazed that the following haven't been changed yet |
| 19:02.48 | mikma | ~bible |
| 19:02.49 | purl | somebody said bible was http://wowprogramming.com |
| 19:03.14 | Fisker- | cog|work = Specialist Cogwheel |
| 19:07.56 | Lopeppeppy | I bet you did! |
| 19:08.20 | cog|work | ~factinfo bible |
| 19:08.20 | purl | bible -- last modified at Fri Oct 24 00:37:55 2008 by mikma!i=mikma@reaktio.net; it has been requested 4 times, last by mikma, 5m 31s ago. |
| 19:09.30 | mikma | Oct 24 2008 =D |
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| 19:31.42 | NeoTron | anyone else thinking the conquest badge items are bad (I'm looking at dps plate). I see only like two items that are noticeable upgrades over ilevel 216 T7 gear and one of them is an upgrade primarily becuase I'm still using an ilevel 200 item |
| 19:32.28 | NeoTron | seems silly that gear you get from T8.5 badges barely matches T7.5 gear |
| 19:34.00 | durcyn | it's badge gear, whaddya want, a free legendary? |
| 19:34.17 | Tem|work | 216? |
| 19:34.35 | Tem|work | 7.5 gear is 213 |
| 19:35.07 | Tem|work | (except KT, Malygos, and a couple hard mode drops which are 226) |
| 19:35.23 | Tem|work | (also a few aberrations that are only 223 which I can't figure out) |
| 19:36.45 | NightHawkTheSane | NeoTron: I've heard that the new dps plate seems to have oddly high levels of stamina on them, which is probably why it seems less than attractive. No idea if this is intentional or what, but *shrug* |
| 19:38.19 | NeoTron | typo |
| 19:38.36 | NeoTron | what I'm saying is that ilevel 226 gear should be better than ilevel 213 gear |
| 19:38.43 | NeoTron | that's pretty much all |
| 19:38.52 | nevcairiel | It has more stats on it |
| 19:39.01 | NeoTron | wouldn't surprise me of some of the ilevel 219 gear is better too |
| 19:39.18 | NeoTron | nevcairiel: part of the problem is that some stats - haste anr armor penetration - still are bad despite being buffed |
| 19:39.29 | NeoTron | so more stats doesn't equal better |
| 19:41.41 | NeoTron | NightHawkTheSane: and yes that is true in some cases but in this case I didn't really see that. Weirdly the DK T8 gear doesn't seem to have excessive stamina but the dps warrior and ret pally sets do |
| 19:41.56 | NeoTron | in some cases T8 DK gear has less stam than T7 |
| 19:42.06 | NightHawkTheSane | NeoTron: *shrug* i was just offering a possible explanation |
| 19:43.32 | NeoTron | I hope they aren't done with the stats because it makes no sense that dps gear has almost the same and in some cases more stamina than tank gear |
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| 19:44.03 | NightHawkTheSane | have you reported this through the proper channels? :P |
| 19:44.20 | NeoTron | people have |
| 19:44.21 | NeoTron | I haven't |
| 19:44.29 | NeoTron | there's been posts, with data, on the PTR forums |
| 19:45.12 | NeoTron | http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a225/ssba/immortal2.jpg Immortal fixd |
| 19:45.40 | AckisWork | NeoTron: eh don't you get the title for doing it in naxx? |
| 19:45.48 | NeoTron | yeah it's the same title |
| 19:45.53 | AckisWork | retarded |
| 19:45.55 | NeoTron | I was just pointing out that they changed the mechanic |
| 19:46.03 | Thunder_Child | not if they get rid of the naxx one |
| 19:46.08 | NeoTron | so now you need to kill the bos without deaths but it's per-boss |
| 19:46.13 | durcyn | what am i supposed to do with two of the same title |
| 19:46.14 | nevcairiel | AckisWork: the title will change for the new one |
| 19:46.18 | NeoTron | you can't wipe on a boss and then kill it the same week |
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| 19:46.21 | nevcairiel | some blue said |
| 19:46.24 | Thunder_Child | since it will be easy after ulduar |
| 19:46.51 | NeoTron | http://blue.mmo-champion.com/20/15859365783-new-immortalundying-now-on-a-per-boss-basis.html |
| 19:46.56 | AckisWork | everyone assumes content will be so much easier after ulduar... ahahah it's already easy and the gear upgrades aren't going to be that much |
| 19:46.58 | NeoTron | "The titles for the Ulduar achievements should be different by the time the patch launches." |
| 19:47.09 | ScytheBlade1 | wow way to nerf the achieve hardcore |
| 19:47.33 | nevcairiel | It was kinda retarded with all the hardmodes in ulduar |
| 19:47.53 | NeoTron | right |
| 19:47.56 | Esamynn | I'm hoping that it will be the hard modes that hand out the REAL gear |
| 19:48.00 | NeoTron | it was bad in Naxxramas, but horrible for Ulduar |
| 19:48.06 | NeoTron | Esamynn: 11 hard modes with better gear |
| 19:48.19 | NeoTron | in Ulduar you'd have to intentionally give up gear to have a better chance at immortal |
| 19:48.22 | nevcairiel | whats the hardmode item level again? 239? |
| 19:48.28 | NeoTron | something like that |
| 19:48.30 | Esamynn | aye, but I'm hoping that the gear that comes from the easiest version is very limited |
| 19:48.42 | Esamynn | to give REAL incentive to beat the hard modes |
| 19:48.45 | NeoTron | normal gear is ilevel 226 |
| 19:48.56 | NeoTron | 239 for hard mdoe |
| 19:49.12 | durcyn | there's some 232 as well |
| 19:49.23 | nevcairiel | 10man hard maybe? |
| 19:49.33 | Esamynn | right, but how much loot drops from a "normal" kill? |
| 19:50.00 | Esamynn | I hoping it is only 1 item for the 10 man, 2 for the 25 |
| 19:50.18 | nevcairiel | naxx dropped way too much loot with the 4 items on 25 |
| 19:50.19 | NeoTron | 232 is normal mode heroic weapons |
| 19:50.25 | NeoTron | like in BC weapons are a bit higher ilevels now |
| 19:50.29 | Esamynn | nevcairiel: exactly! |
| 19:50.54 | nevcairiel | 2 + 2 set i can live with |
| 19:50.58 | nevcairiel | but 4 random epics, just bad |
| 19:51.07 | Esamynn | nevcairiel: I think you should be able to obtain that number of drops per boss still, but only if you do the hard mode |
| 19:51.09 | NeoTron | because ... random is more fun with less drops |
| 19:51.17 | NeoTron | we still have only one KT axe |
| 19:51.22 | NeoTron | so no, don't drop less kthx |
| 19:51.33 | nevcairiel | cry moar =P |
| 19:51.44 | NeoTron | when 25% of the drops are DE holy pally gear, 25% is DE prot tank gear you only have 2 useful items anyway |
| 19:51.53 | NeoTron | and that seems to be how it goes for us in every fricking clear |
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| 19:52.24 | NeoTron | feels like we have more plate DPS with full tank gear than with full dps gear.. |
| 19:52.30 | Esamynn | lol |
| 19:52.58 | NeoTron | that btw is why I hope for some nice badge gear upgrades |
| 19:53.02 | NightHawkTheSane | statistically speaking.. there -is- too much holy pally gear >< |
| 19:53.05 | NeoTron | that rely not on rng but on time spent |
| 19:53.16 | NeoTron | NightHawkTheSane: they should rework the system so holy pallies wear mail gear |
| 19:53.22 | Esamynn | have we gotten any information on how much loot is gonna drop in Ulduar? |
| 19:53.26 | NeoTron | at least then there's not a piece of gear a single class/spec uses |
| 19:53.41 | nevcairiel | Esamynn: you could probably ask people that killed mobs already |
| 19:53.44 | NightHawkTheSane | NeoTron: They should rework the armor system to remove cloth types and have armor type simply be a multiplier of the armor value. |
| 19:53.50 | NightHawkTheSane | s/cloth/armor/ |
| 19:54.02 | Esamynn | nevcairiel: last I heard, they didn't have loot tables yet |
| 19:54.15 | nevcairiel | they had for a few builds now |
| 19:54.23 | Esamynn | ahh, ok |
| 19:55.07 | Dagmar | NightHawkTheSane: Only if you want to stand around singing The Lollipop Kids song after you down a boss |
| 19:55.18 | NightHawkTheSane | Dagmar: huh? |
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| 19:55.52 | Dagmar | o/~ "We rep-re-sen-n-n-nt... the lol-li-pop kii-i-i-ids..." o/~ |
| 19:56.13 | ZorbaGama | I'm actually kind of expecting the next hero class to be a spellpower plate class, with ranged damage and healing specs |
| 19:56.15 | Dagmar | There's a dice RPG'er term for what you describe, and it's called "munchkinizing" |
| 19:56.18 | NeoTron | I think part of the problem isn't necessarily random loot is random |
| 19:56.20 | alestane | The Lollipop Guild, actually. |
| 19:56.30 | Dagmar | alestane: danke |
| 19:56.31 | NeoTron | but that in many cases that there's only a single item for a slot that's worth getting |
| 19:56.38 | ZorbaGama | which neatly solves the "only holy pallies use it" issue |
| 19:56.43 | NeoTron | like Naxx25 has like 5-6 2H physical dps weapons |
| 19:56.48 | ZorbaGama | (and neatly creates the "not enough character slots for a character of each class" problem) |
| 19:56.57 | NeoTron | that are all pretty much identical with a single weapon (the axe) that's ubergood in comparision |
| 19:57.09 | ScytheBlade1 | Or they could just do item transmutes, like they did with Sunwell |
| 19:57.13 | NightHawkTheSane | Dagmar: .... except it'd further their already stated goal of increasing loot sharing among classes. |
| 19:57.16 | NeoTron | at the very least they should have two 2H weapons (an axe + a sword or mace for example) |
| 19:57.22 | NightHawkTheSane | so, again, wtf? |
| 19:57.39 | Dagmar | They can do that with tokens withotu completely munchkinizing the gear |
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| 19:57.57 | Dagmar | Tokens are just a very unglamorous way of going about it |
| 19:58.03 | NightHawkTheSane | that's another option, but they'd have to move to a full token-based gearing system |
| 19:58.58 | NeoTron | I would love a fully token based system... but then it'd be "too easy" |
| 19:59.00 | NightHawkTheSane | but the point is what NeoTron said is basically a good example, the only difference between most holy pally itemization and resto shaman itemization is the "Mail" vs "Plate" label, and associated armor value. |
| 19:59.04 | NeoTron | but the SWP style method was good |
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| 19:59.27 | NeoTron | you get some plate legs and you can buy a specific set of tank, dps or holy plate legs |
| 19:59.45 | NeoTron | so you remove the "rather high percentage of drops for the two holy pallies" issue |
| 19:59.55 | NightHawkTheSane | NeoTron: you assume we have ANY holy pallies. >< |
| 19:59.59 | NeoTron | indeed |
| 20:00.30 | NeoTron | problem is also that holy pallies is their own class |
| 20:00.40 | NeoTron | they want crit more than any other healer and more than mp5 |
| 20:00.56 | NeoTron | of course we see a lot of mp5 plate gear too that almost always is DE'd even if you have paladins |
| 20:01.16 | NightHawkTheSane | well, like i said, resto shaman itemization is close enough that they could really combine the gear if it wasn't for the plate/mail thing |
| 20:01.56 | NeoTron | would be great |
| 20:02.19 | NeoTron | but the flipside is we get lots of free shards for enchants! |
| 20:02.32 | Dagmar | That's good stuff right there |
| 20:02.54 | durcyn | just give resto shamans a second 51-point talent to equip plate |
| 20:02.58 | NightHawkTheSane | NeoTron: to enchant the gear thats not dropping for you? :P |
| 20:03.21 | Dagmar | Let's just get those shamen off mail entirely. More loot for my hunter. |
| 20:03.25 | *** join/#wowuidev Legorol (n=legorol@stud-nat-blk12.trin.cam.ac.uk) |
| 20:03.25 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+v Legorol] by ChanServ |
| 20:03.58 | Etanol | hi!!1 |
| 20:04.15 | NeoTron | NightHawkTheSane: right! |
| 20:09.21 | *** join/#wowuidev Spellshaper1 (n=Spellsha@HSI-KBW-085-216-104-053.hsi.kabelbw.de) |
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| 20:23.44 | Arrowmaster | cog|work: bastard |
| 20:25.51 | *** join/#wowuidev blaaargh (n=Smug@pool-173-67-2-17.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net) |
| 20:27.03 | Arrowmaster | my alignment went up 1.5mil trying to take back my own planets |
| 20:28.59 | cog|work | *chuckle8 |
| 20:29.02 | cog|work | s/8/*/ |
| 20:31.49 | *** join/#wowuidev Riffage (n=nnscript@78-86-205-138.zone2.bethere.co.uk) |
| 20:33.48 | Arrowmaster | i wish building citadels didnt take so long |
| 20:33.57 | Arrowmaster | kinda hard to defend without them |
| 20:34.28 | blaaargh | whatchya playing |
| 20:34.36 | Arrowmaster | trade wars |
| 20:36.01 | Arrowmaster | how did zoot get a class M planet in the same sector as the starport? |
| 20:38.20 | Lopeppeppy | Sprockets rule, arrows drool. |
| 20:41.07 | Shadowed | hrm, gear profiles are stored server side on the equipment manager? |
| 20:41.42 | NeoTron | speaking of equipment manager, I{ think they fixed the JC gem issue |
| 20:41.58 | Esamynn | Arrowmaster: not sure, I've never actually tested if you can use a Gtorp in fed space or not |
| 20:42.03 | selckin | wonder if you can abuse it to store data |
| 20:42.10 | Esamynn | but it's definately too soon for him to ahve a level 4 cit |
| 20:42.22 | Shadowed | No you can't |
| 20:42.25 | Arrowmaster | the planet had no cit |
| 20:42.49 | Esamynn | I guess you can use G-torps in fed space then |
| 20:43.04 | Arrowmaster | kinda weird that he managed to get a class m though |
| 20:43.10 | Shadowed | And yes, it looks like they fixed the gem issue |
| 20:43.13 | Shadowed | at least from checking the code |
| 20:45.06 | *** join/#wowuidev Antiarc (n=Antiarc@wsip-70-167-195-98.ph.ph.cox.net) |
| 20:45.45 | *** join/#wowuidev Kaso (n=Kaso@78.151.222.20) |
| 20:54.16 | *** topic/#WoWUIDev by Cairenn -> Keep the channel civil. Debate is fine as long as it is respectful of each othersâ opinions and kept civilized, constructive and courteous. No flaming! No trolling! New WoW UI Development Policy http://tinyurl.com/c4ga6a |
| 20:54.33 | Cairenn | http://www.wowinterface.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21289 |
| 20:54.49 | Thunder_Child | "All add-ons must be distributed free of charge" wee |
| 20:54.57 | Adys | hehe |
| 20:56.30 | Gngsk | court cases for leveling guides! |
| 20:56.59 | Lopeppeppy | Cats and dogs living in sin, mass hysteria! |
| 20:57.49 | zenzelezz | "Add-ons must be free of charge" -- suhweet |
| 20:58.07 | Thunder_Child | http://fuckyoupenguin.blogspot.com/ |
| 20:58.12 | zenzelezz | "Add-on code must be completely visible"... man, those two alone will infuriate some people |
| 20:58.43 | ScytheBlade1 | Whoa |
| 20:58.48 | foxlit | I wonder how it is that they think they have any standing. |
| 20:59.06 | ScytheBlade1 | -Whoa- |
| 20:59.17 | zenzelezz | "Add-ons must not contain offensive or objectionable material" <-- no more "Hello Kitty" |
| 20:59.37 | Thunder_Child | someone is rezzing it Lopeppeppy |
| 20:59.39 | ScytheBlade1 | BAH |
| 20:59.47 | ScytheBlade1 | THIS MEANS I HAVE TO UPDATE IllegalAdon |
| 20:59.48 | ScytheBlade1 | *Addon |
| 20:59.50 | ScytheBlade1 | CURSE WORK |
| 21:00.00 | Lopeppeppy | Oh noes, ScytheBlade1! *laugh* |
| 21:00.08 | zenzelezz | now this is one of the cooler things Blizzard has done in a while, addon-wise |
| 21:00.24 | foxlit | "Add-ons will perform no function which, in Blizzard Entertainment's sole discretion, negatively impacts the performance of World of Warcraft [...]. For example [...] slow frame rates. " |
| 21:00.29 | Thunder_Child | #3 is kinda iffy though, thats not usualy a vindictive thing |
| 21:00.37 | cog|work | ! |
| 21:00.37 | Adys | damn |
| 21:00.40 | Thunder_Child | exactly foxlit |
| 21:00.45 | Adys | Im going to get banned |
| 21:00.51 | Lopeppeppy | TC, it *could* be though. |
| 21:00.52 | Adys | me and my LibSlowFrameRates.lua |
| 21:01.03 | NightHawkTheSane | foxlit: that's.. fairly subjective |
| 21:01.05 | Thunder_Child | Lopeppeppy, i know, thats why i said not usually |
| 21:01.08 | Arrowmaster | ZorbaGama: ^^^ you probably should look at that link |
| 21:01.09 | Lopeppeppy | :) |
| 21:01.43 | ScytheBlade1 | Actually |
| 21:01.49 | ScytheBlade1 | This gives us some concrete rules |
| 21:01.50 | cog|work | W |
| 21:01.51 | cog|work | T |
| 21:01.51 | cog|work | F |
| 21:01.56 | amro | "Add-ons may not suck." |
| 21:02.12 | ScytheBlade1 | Hmm @ #5 |
| 21:02.13 | NeoTron | Cairenn: free of charge... wonder what will happen to the non-free of charge addons :P |
| 21:02.22 | ZorbaGama | man, can't even ask for donations anymore? |
| 21:02.22 | NeoTron | and addon code must be visible. |
| 21:02.28 | NeoTron | ZorbaGama: that's fine |
| 21:02.28 | foxlit | not in-game. |
| 21:02.32 | Thunder_Child | ZorbaGama, yes, just not in game |
| 21:02.33 | NightHawkTheSane | ZorbaGama: nothing prevents asking for donations |
| 21:02.36 | NeoTron | just can't sell a "premium version" |
| 21:02.38 | Cairenn | ^^ |
| 21:02.39 | foxlit | Nobody said it must be readable, however. |
| 21:02.44 | cog|work | that's bullshit |
| 21:02.48 | NeoTron | All add-ons must be distributed free of charge. Developers may not create premium versions of add-ons with additional for-pay features, charge money to download an add-on, charge for services related to the add-on, or otherwise require some form of monetary compensation to download or access an add-on. |
| 21:02.49 | Arrowmaster | most of ckknight's stuff also violates that one |
| 21:02.50 | cog|work | they have no authority over our copyright |
| 21:02.52 | foxlit | aaaa(aaa, aa, a)("!") |
| 21:02.55 | Thunder_Child | lol foxlit, no documentation |
| 21:02.57 | ZorbaGama | yeah, well, unfortunately, that's where a huge chunk of my income comes from |
| 21:03.01 | NeoTron | cog|work: but they have authority over the platform it runs in |
| 21:03.06 | ScytheBlade1 | cog|work: wowui@blizzard.com |
| 21:03.06 | ZorbaGama | guess I'll be finishing up v1.0 and then putting it in maintenance, then |
| 21:03.10 | NightHawkTheSane | foxlit: "The programming code of an add-on must in no way be hidden or obfuscated," |
| 21:03.13 | ScytheBlade1 | cog|work: (but I suspect you have a better contact than that) |
| 21:03.14 | Cairenn | ZorbaGama: you can still ask for dontations on your site |
| 21:03.15 | NeoTron | oh I didn't see number 5 |
| 21:03.22 | Cairenn | you just can't ask for them IN_GAME |
| 21:03.34 | foxlit | NightHawkTheSane: so sue my bad naming conventions :) |
| 21:03.37 | ZorbaGama | cairenn, trust me, that's a small fraction of it. that chops it in fifth or so. |
| 21:03.43 | ScytheBlade1 | Wait wait wait |
| 21:03.46 | ScytheBlade1 | Nitpicking |
| 21:03.46 | Arrowmaster | 5 is the only one i have a problem with |
| 21:03.48 | cog|work | NeoTron: sure. the other points are fine since they actually have an effect in-game... |
| 21:03.51 | NeoTron | wonder if they will start monitoring addon performance |
| 21:03.54 | cog|work | #1 isn't even related to gameplay |
| 21:04.01 | ScytheBlade1 | "Add-ons may not include ***REQUESTS*** for donations." |
| 21:04.05 | NightHawkTheSane | foxlit: im not saying its not at least partially subjective, but there is a noticable difference betwen shitty programming and obfuscation :P |
| 21:04.07 | Thunder_Child | demands? |
| 21:04.10 | NeoTron | or rather addon performance on non-addon users |
| 21:04.11 | Arrowmaster | 3 is there because of foreverAFK |
| 21:04.18 | ScytheBlade1 | "If you like it, feel free to donate" should be fine |
| 21:04.29 | NeoTron | like someone reported how Carbonite uses excessive network communication affecting everyone in the guild |
| 21:04.30 | ScytheBlade1 | As that is not a /request/ |
| 21:04.33 | Arrowmaster | zoot even asked us to remove that one from the old wowace svn because it was causing server issues |
| 21:04.59 | ZorbaGama | scythe, I'm going to bet that that's pretty much explicitly put in to get rid of QH's requests, honestly |
| 21:04.59 | Lopeppeppy | 95% of the addon world will stay exactly as it is, only a few (much discussed!) addons are going to need changes. |
| 21:05.03 | jnwhiteh | what constitutes a request? :P |
| 21:05.08 | NightHawkTheSane | ScytheBlade1: again, subjective. what constitutes a request? |
| 21:05.12 | NightHawkTheSane | jnwhiteh: damn you! |
| 21:05.16 | ScytheBlade1 | The word "Please" |
| 21:05.16 | jnwhiteh | hehe |
| 21:05.25 | foxlit | How about "demand"? |
| 21:05.27 | NeoTron | I find it funny how I mentioned a few days ago that I didn't think Blizzard liked obfuscated code |
| 21:05.37 | foxlit | "Pay up, you worm, or I'll stop working on you" |
| 21:06.17 | NightHawkTheSane | it's not a big stretch for a simple unobtrusive 'donation info' button in the config to be construed as a 'request for donations' |
| 21:06.26 | durcyn | at least that bang!_shittycode guy is getting his comeuppance |
| 21:06.32 | Lopeppeppy | Then don't use a button, NHTS. |
| 21:06.33 | ScytheBlade1 | NightHawkTheSane: no, but I don't think it is a strecth that they'll be making. |
| 21:06.42 | Lopeppeppy | Talk about it on your download site instead. |
| 21:06.43 | NightHawkTheSane | ScytheBlade1: again, subjective. :) |
| 21:06.52 | Lopeppeppy | There's always subjective in policy statements! :) |
| 21:06.56 | ScytheBlade1 | NightHawkTheSane: yes well so are a lot of things :P |
| 21:07.40 | *** join/#wowuidev Dashkal (n=dashkal@WoWUIDev/Nexus/dashkal) |
| 21:08.03 | ScytheBlade1 | (namely, define 'request') |
| 21:08.05 | cog|work | >:( |
| 21:08.26 | ScytheBlade1 | No, you're a gnome |
| 21:08.37 | NightHawkTheSane | Lopeppeppy: yeah, im just saying a few of these are -highly- subjective, moreso than others. |
| 21:08.45 | ScytheBlade1 | Cairenn: when did this hit? |
| 21:08.51 | zenzelezz | ScytheBlade1: a Gnolf |
| 21:08.54 | NightHawkTheSane | abiding by the EULA/ToU and the "T" rating isn't terribly subjective |
| 21:08.56 | NeoTron | regardless it IS there game so they can have whatever rules they want |
| 21:09.03 | Tekkub | "Add-ons must not contain offensive or objectionable material" |
| 21:09.04 | Tekkub | lawl |
| 21:09.09 | Thunder_Child | well the upshot is regardless of if you like the new rules or not there is a difinitive rule set to follow |
| 21:09.11 | Tekkub | not gonna happen here ^^ |
| 21:09.12 | Cairenn | posted |
| 21:09.14 | ScytheBlade1 | NightHawkTheSane: almost -all- of their policy is entirely subjective |
| 21:09.23 | Lopeppeppy | NeoTron and NHTS, it's just like the ToS/EULA. There's always deliberately wiggle room. |
| 21:09.25 | Tekkub | granted, I don't put those ones out for general release |
| 21:09.32 | NightHawkTheSane | Thunder_Child: indeed, i do like it |
| 21:09.32 | Lopeppeppy | That's just the way that legal documents *are*. |
| 21:09.44 | Cairenn | ScytheBlade1: just now |
| 21:10.00 | Slakah | I wonder what the carbonite guys are gonna do. |
| 21:10.01 | Cairenn | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15864747207&postId=158632497915&sid=1#0 |
| 21:10.05 | ScytheBlade1 | Cairenn: you get a fancy e-mail about it I assume? |
| 21:10.06 | ScytheBlade1 | Slakah: die? |
| 21:10.08 | NeoTron | Slakah: go open or stop |
| 21:10.11 | zenzelezz | if rules are too strictly defined, loopholes will be too easy to find |
| 21:10.12 | Arrowmaster | Slakah: get real jobs? |
| 21:10.23 | Cairenn | something like that |
| 21:10.25 | ZorbaGama | slakah, open-source it, then abandon it, if I were them |
| 21:10.36 | *** join/#wowuidev Iriel (n=Iriel@adsl-71-158-244-138.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) |
| 21:10.36 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o Iriel] by ChanServ |
| 21:10.53 | ScytheBlade1 | Iriel: /topic |
| 21:10.57 | Tem|work | I'm not comfortable with the copyright bits of it, but the only part I don't like is the T rating business |
| 21:11.00 | zenzelezz | speaking of the evil overlords, here's Iriel to cast some light on it |
| 21:11.10 | NeoTron | or go over to a donation based business |
| 21:11.13 | Tem|work | it's my damn right to tell my users to fuck off in game if I so please! |
| 21:11.26 | Slakah | I'm just wondering whether they're going to make it compliant before the stop working on it. |
| 21:11.39 | Arrowmaster | they wont |
| 21:11.45 | Iriel | Tem: You can presumably still send them tells -- I wonder if you can just make your addon abide by the mature language filter settings 8-) |
| 21:11.48 | NeoTron | ok now THIS I don't like. |
| 21:11.50 | ScytheBlade1 | Tekkub: you should add in a blacklist to your addons of players you don't like. Your addons would simply not load if it was one of them ;) |
| 21:11.52 | Arrowmaster | they will keep doing exactly what they are doing until blizzard sends the lawyers |
| 21:11.55 | NeoTron | I can't log into to the forums without my authenticator now |
| 21:12.09 | NeoTron | they should add a forum only account that doesn't need that |
| 21:12.16 | AckisWork | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:12.18 | NeoTron | now I can't post from work! |
| 21:12.23 | ScytheBlade1 | AckisWork: slow! |
| 21:12.27 | AckisWork | question: how can they enforce that? |
| 21:12.40 | foxlit | " failure to abide by them may result in measures up to and including taking formal legal action. " |
| 21:12.43 | ScytheBlade1 | AckisWork: with the banhammer? |
| 21:12.49 | Tekkub | ScytheBlade1, I've wanted that for sooo long, but it'd need to be at an account level |
| 21:12.54 | Dagmar | Aw man.... #6 is just mean |
| 21:13.06 | foxlit | ScytheBlade1: well, that's simple enough to fix -- just don't link your character names and addon distribution handles |
| 21:13.07 | Arrowmaster | AckisWork: lawyers |
| 21:13.11 | AckisWork | me writing addons is completely seperate from me accepting the games ToS... how many authors don't even have accounts? |
| 21:13.24 | ScytheBlade1 | foxlit: most of the people that Tekkub wants "addon banned" are stupid. |
| 21:13.41 | Lopeppeppy | Interesting question to send them, AckisWork, WoWUI@blizzard.com. |
| 21:13.42 | NeoTron | I wonder if they will be monitoring things like chat traffic |
| 21:13.42 | Tekkub | Zootfizzle, "Add-ons may not solicit donations" you should get "in game" added to that title just to make it crystal clear to people |
| 21:13.46 | Legorol | AckisWork: i think the legalities of that may not be as straightforward as you think |
| 21:13.50 | foxlit | ScytheBlade1: was re "with the banhammer?" |
| 21:14.26 | Tekkub | I just hope we can report obfuscated addons to Zooty and actual real actions be taken against those authors :) |
| 21:14.27 | Legorol | AckisWork: consider Glider. Glider author wasn't sued because he agreed to the EULA/ToU. |
| 21:14.35 | Legorol | He did all his work as a third party. |
| 21:14.39 | Lopeppeppy | Tekkub, do it! WoWUI@blizzard.com! |
| 21:14.40 | Iriel | I really doubt they're going to build out huge infrastructure to "catch infractions" |
| 21:14.57 | Iriel | The language and timing feels like they just want to make it abundantly clear what they consider "not cool" |
| 21:14.59 | Arrowmaster | imho 5 should be changed so static info in a menu or config is ok but like a popup or chatframe message on a timer isnt |
| 21:15.01 | Tekkub | yea I'll wait a short time ;) |
| 21:15.03 | Dagmar | Hmm... |
| 21:15.15 | Dagmar | I get the feeling an idea of mine just got a big hole shot in it |
| 21:15.18 | Tekkub | see who plays by the rules and who dun't |
| 21:15.27 | AckisWork | Legorol: eh I'm just saying... most of the stuff I agree with, and the sites support it, it's #5 and possibly #6 that will get people mad |
| 21:15.29 | zenzelezz | Iriel: nonsense, I expect them to modify their lua implementation to reject outright any variable whose name does not appear pronouncable |
| 21:15.49 | Lopeppeppy | #5 has to be vague, because as fast as Bliz enumerates a method, code monkeys will find one that's NOT enumerated.... that's why there's no attempt to get exhaustive. |
| 21:16.20 | Tekkub | I like #5 personally |
| 21:16.26 | Slakah | yup |
| 21:16.32 | Tekkub | I don't think addons should be going for donations in-game |
| 21:16.39 | Tekkub | they should link to their site, that's all |
| 21:16.50 | Tekkub | from there, spam the fuck out of your donation buttons |
| 21:17.06 | Legorol | AckisWork: I have no idea about #5, but it's quite possible that #6 has some esoteric legal background to it. I have no idea how the legalities for such stuff as ESRB ratings work. |
| 21:17.19 | ZorbaGama | tekkub, the problem is that people don't look at donation buttons |
| 21:17.20 | Arrowmaster | well i dont think they should be doing like what ZorbaGama did with questhelper, but i dont see a problem with static info in an about panel |
| 21:17.22 | Legorol | It might be that ESRB doesn't allow your stuff to be extendable beyond the rating. |
| 21:17.23 | AckisWork | for #5 I have a field in my ToC: ## X-Donate: Donate a few bucks/hours at your local animal shelter, send me UDE Point codes, or a Murky Code. <-- that's now against the rules? I'm not going to ever change that line in my code ever however so /shrug |
| 21:17.24 | amro | arf #6 |
| 21:17.24 | Lopeppeppy | And remember, ESRB stuff is different from country to country. |
| 21:17.30 | amro | there goes my Hot Coffee addon |
| 21:17.30 | ZorbaGama | especially with all the clients that automatically update |
| 21:17.43 | ScytheBlade1 | I'd like to think that a donation /button/ or information on how to donate would be fine in-game, ie: what I've seen from a large number of ace addons. I'd also like to think that carbonite's "new" version which spams the user is not fine |
| 21:17.46 | Tekkub | ZorbaGama, yea, and they're not gonna look at them in-game either |
| 21:17.49 | NeoTron | Iriel: Still if they do nothing at all, #3 is pointless |
| 21:17.49 | ZorbaGama | I'm serious here, my donations quintupled when I added my every-two-or-three-weeks notification |
| 21:18.08 | NeoTron | a lot of addons have negative impact on the gameplay due to poor coding and some negatively impact others than yourself |
| 21:18.09 | ZorbaGama | once I get rid of that, I don't have the time to work on QH full-time anymore. :P |
| 21:18.10 | Slakah | imo if people really wanted to donate to you they'll go to the effort of going to your site |
| 21:18.10 | AckisWork | Legorol: yah good point... I was just thinking along the lines that some things may be offensive to some, but not to others, it all depends on the audience |
| 21:18.11 | jnwhiteh | I' |
| 21:18.18 | jnwhiteh | I'm happy with the amount of donations I get |
| 21:18.21 | jnwhiteh | its a nice pat on the back |
| 21:18.22 | ZorbaGama | slakah, not everyone knows the option even exists unless I tell them |
| 21:18.22 | jnwhiteh | *shrug* |
| 21:18.27 | AckisWork | jnwhiteh: you've got a donation? |
| 21:18.29 | AckisWork | :P |
| 21:18.34 | Tekkub | I've been happy with my donations as well |
| 21:18.45 | Tekkub | and all I have are the buttons on wowi and github |
| 21:18.48 | Dagmar | Oof. No more addon to spoof locations to Carbonite users |
| 21:18.48 | *** join/#wowuidev dustice (n=dustin@pool-173-71-51-53.dllstx.fios.verizon.net) |
| 21:18.50 | Tekkub | and my site |
| 21:18.58 | Tekkub | AckisWork sucks then |
| 21:19.00 | NeoTron | the donation I get from my addons is, at the moment, solely less pain for myself in-game :P |
| 21:19.01 | Legorol | AckisWork: yeah i realise what offensive is is subjective. If you need a rule of thumb, I'd go with "whatever ESRB's definition of T rating is" |
| 21:19.16 | Slakah | I don't get spend enough time on my mods to deserve donation :p |
| 21:19.17 | Tekkub | ESRB can go fuck themselves! |
| 21:19.20 | Tem|work | Dagmar: ? |
| 21:19.20 | ScytheBlade1 | gah |
| 21:19.26 | Legorol | that's as objective a measure as it gets |
| 21:19.29 | Tem|work | Dagmar: spoof locations to carbonite users? |
| 21:19.29 | Arrowmaster | imho 6 is silly because every game has an 'online experience not rated by esrb' notice, hell ive got fucking single player games without any online or multiplayer with that notice |
| 21:19.29 | ScytheBlade1 | skldjfslj |
| 21:19.48 | AckisWork | Legorol: yah I think it's just a common sense thing tbh, but /shrug what really annoys me is that they're trying to control the addons |
| 21:19.51 | Legorol | Arrowmaster: but an addon is not an online experience, it's a client-side experience |
| 21:19.52 | Dagmar | Tem: Yes, strictly only useful for minor mischief tho |
| 21:20.01 | mikma | tekkub: how much have you got overall? |
| 21:20.04 | Arrowmaster | Legorol: the user goes online to get it |
| 21:20.19 | Tekkub | mikma, enough to upgrade my computer for wraf ^^ |
| 21:20.31 | Tem|work | Dagmar: can you tell me what you mean, though? |
| 21:20.38 | Legorol | AckisWork: why shouldn't they control it? They control addons via the API they make avilable, they limit what addons can do through that, so why couldn't they also limit the number of swearwords in an addon? |
| 21:20.38 | Tekkub | and pay my monthly fee for a while |
| 21:20.39 | Tem|work | I'm not familliar with carbonite or its features |
| 21:20.41 | Arrowmaster | the user is connected to an online server inorder to get into the game world so the addons can even load |
| 21:20.57 | Tem|work | but it sounds like fun mischief |
| 21:21.08 | Dagmar | Tem: Load up Carbonite, then look at what chat channels you're in |
| 21:21.14 | Arrowmaster | atleast we know who to blame |
| 21:21.17 | Lopeppeppy | Tem, don't pollute with Carbon! |
| 21:21.18 | Arrowmaster | its all carbonites fault |
| 21:21.21 | Dagmar | Put one into a chat window where you can see it |
| 21:21.26 | AckisWork | Legorol: offensive isn't swear words... I can be extremely offensive without using vulgar language |
| 21:21.27 | Arrowmaster | because they made the fucking adware version |
| 21:21.28 | Lopeppeppy | Well, they're doozies and no doubt, Arrowmaster. |
| 21:21.34 | Tekkub | paying and obfuscation are the two important ones, the rest is just crap they slipped in because that basically had to if they're establishing policy |
| 21:21.38 | Legorol | I'm tempted to think #6 is a result of Mazzlegasm. |
| 21:21.47 | Dagmar | Basically, the "abuse of the chat system" thing is that carbonite chatters your location to other carbonite users |
| 21:21.50 | Tem|work | god I hated that so much |
| 21:21.51 | NightHawkTheSane | Tekkub: it's covering their ass is what it is :P |
| 21:21.53 | Lopeppeppy | Mazzlegasm did get a lot of blowups. |
| 21:21.57 | Tekkub | exactly |
| 21:22.03 | Slakah | SetPoint = function(self, text) if text:find("donat") then Die() end |
| 21:22.05 | Lopeppeppy | Mazzle was from my server, I couldn't move without hearing that for days! |
| 21:22.07 | zenzelezz | I wonder if the "game experience" part includes traffic from things like addons sharing data (guildie positions, resources, ...) |
| 21:22.10 | Slakah | end |
| 21:22.10 | Arrowmaster | mazzlegasm was stupid, imho it violated the ToS/EULA part that says no advertising |
| 21:22.10 | Dagmar | Tem: ...but whatever your client sends is what other carbonite-installed clients believe |
| 21:22.11 | Legorol | Dagmar: it does more than that, it spams non-Carbonite users' guild chat message channel too |
| 21:22.11 | Tekkub | 7 and 8 have always been around |
| 21:22.12 | AckisWork | Lopeppeppy: mazzlegasm? |
| 21:22.24 | ScytheBlade1 | AckisWork: google |
| 21:22.29 | Dagmar | Legorol: it's also somewhat gullible. :) |
| 21:22.36 | Iriel | I feel that some of the things on here may be included so that clueless authors of bad code can't say "But you didn't tell me not to do that" when their addons are disabled. |
| 21:22.39 | Tekkub | #3 makes little sense beyond the chat bit |
| 21:22.41 | AckisWork | ScytheBlade1: after I concat all my code and send it to the e-mail and ask them r this ok? |
| 21:22.48 | Lopeppeppy | Ackis, whenever you ran the script to set up the Mazzle UI, it did some loud public emote of having an orgasm. |
| 21:23.03 | Tekkub | "hard drive and frame rate" can only be interpreted as "don't write shit code" |
| 21:23.10 | Dagmar | Quartz is in trouble |
| 21:23.12 | Dagmar | heh |
| 21:23.20 | NightHawkTheSane | Iriel: I think that mostly gets covered under the CYA aspect of it, as a nice side effecct |
| 21:23.24 | Tem|work | I really like the idea of a feature where you send map location updates through the guild addon channel |
| 21:23.26 | Arrowmaster | it did something like "/y OMG I JUST HAD A MAZZLEGASM!" |
| 21:23.35 | Legorol | Tekkub: on #3, it seems to me that Blizz is covering their asses. I'm fairly sure that in practice, if an addon inadvertantly affects your fps due to a bug, they won't sue the author. |
| 21:23.36 | Slakah | I hope the Bejeweled folks would format their code into something legible. |
| 21:23.43 | Tem|work | so you can see the location on the world map of any guild mate using the addon |
| 21:23.53 | Arrowmaster | Slakah: it already is |
| 21:23.58 | Tekkub | Legorol, yes it's very much ass protection |
| 21:23.58 | zenzelezz | Tem|work: isn't that what several already do? |
| 21:24.07 | Tekkub | Slakah, report em! |
| 21:24.10 | Tem|work | zenzelezz: yes |
| 21:24.16 | Beladona | obfuscation doesn't mean "I can't read it, because its horribly written" |
| 21:24.19 | Tem|work | I'm almost certain that feature is out there in several addons |
| 21:24.20 | Tekkub | Arrowmaster, they un-obfuscated it? |
| 21:24.21 | Arrowmaster | Slakah: the guy that wrote it has an internal version before its run through LuaSrcDiet |
| 21:24.22 | Beladona | tahts different |
| 21:24.35 | NeoTron | I noticed something interesting last night |
| 21:24.38 | durcyn | Tem|work: libguildpositions and friends, ye |
| 21:24.42 | Legorol | Tekkub: another reason might be support costs. There are too many clueless users whom, when their fps drops, try to blame Blizz and ticket GMs, instead of blaming their sucky addons. |
| 21:24.43 | Arrowmaster | although imho LuaSrcDiet isnt much of obfuscated |
| 21:24.49 | Legorol | I see that way too often even with my own guildmates. |
| 21:25.04 | NeoTron | I had a bug in my code that cause it to create a repeating 1 second timer every time the callback was called |
| 21:25.07 | Tekkub | LuaSrcDiet isn't much of anything |
| 21:25.17 | NeoTron | so basically each 1 second timer created a new one which locked up the interpreter |
| 21:25.20 | Legorol | #3 to me implies: "authors, try to not make sucky addons so we don't get users complaining to *us*" |
| 21:25.20 | Arrowmaster | its purpose isnt really to obfuscate |
| 21:25.26 | NeoTron | WoW automatically did a /reloadui it seems |
| 21:25.30 | Tekkub | and why the fuck would you open a GM ticket for performance issues? |
| 21:25.39 | ScytheBlade1 | Tekkub: people. are. stupid. |
| 21:25.39 | Tekkub | there's exactly jack shit a GM can do for you |
| 21:25.43 | Arrowmaster | because people are stupid |
| 21:25.48 | NeoTron | or I guess it's possible it managed to read my /rl command despite not rendering graphics |
| 21:25.50 | Legorol | Tekkub: users are idiots. |
| 21:26.06 | foxlit | Meh, they really should just measure the time the Lua environment takes on each frame render |
| 21:26.11 | Dagmar | Tekkub: The same people who ask breathtakingly ignorant questions in the Trade channel have access to creating GM tickets |
| 21:26.12 | Tekkub | it was a retorical (sp?) question, I know users are losers |
| 21:26.13 | batbot | Tekkub, rhetorical. |
| 21:26.15 | NeoTron | Tekkub: think QuestHelper - it has been signled out as one of the most common reasons people can't log into Dalaran |
| 21:26.27 | Tekkub | fuck you batbot! |
| 21:26.37 | NeoTron | they get that so much it's now a "try disabling QuestHelper" response is the first thing they say in many cases |
| 21:26.40 | selckin | half my guild has ticketed gms because of questhelper |
| 21:26.49 | Tekkub | well, QuestHelper does suck *hides* |
| 21:27.11 | NeoTron | I'd argue WoW is badly designed if a slow loading addon causes a disconnect but that's a different issue |
| 21:27.15 | AckisWork | ZorbaGama: you should trademark QuestHelper and make blizz pay you a nickle for everytime they say it, it's posted on their forums, etc :P |
| 21:27.22 | Dagmar | Wait, QuestHelper chatters to other users, too? |
| 21:27.34 | Iriel | NeoTron: You could argue that, but I would challenge your argument 8-) |
| 21:27.34 | Dagmar | I thought it was too busy wasting CPU power to do that |
| 21:27.36 | Lopeppeppy | The addon is causing the problem though, NeoTron. Without it, no problem. |
| 21:27.41 | ZorbaGama | ackis, I suspect Blizzard may obejct to that ;) |
| 21:27.54 | ZorbaGama | dagmar, it does a little in-party chatter to synchronize questlogs, but that's it |
| 21:28.02 | Tekkub | can we call blizzy on their own shit with "unnecessary loading from the hard disk" in Dalaran? |
| 21:28.10 | Slakah | If QH does break I'm sure they'll be loads more GMs being harassed by rabid users. |
| 21:28.11 | selckin | it will log you out if you click the mailbox too fast and there is alot of stuff in it, before you are fully loaded |
| 21:28.23 | ScytheBlade1 | Tekkub: that isn't UI/addon related, so probably not |
| 21:28.29 | ScytheBlade1 | sadly |
| 21:28.31 | Tekkub | an option to spread PC texture loading has been needed for YEARS |
| 21:28.44 | ScytheBlade1 | I'm not disagreeing, I'm just saying, probably not ;P |
| 21:28.54 | Tekkub | rabble rabble rabble! |
| 21:29.04 | Dagmar | ZorbaGama: Okay, that's what I thought. I had only seen Carbonite go into "superchatty" mode when I went into Dalaran |
| 21:29.13 | Tekkub | I know exactly how useful the suggestion forum is :P |
| 21:29.24 | Lopeppeppy | They read it, Tekkub! |
| 21:29.32 | Lopeppeppy | Just 'cause they can't post back, doesn't mean it's not read. |
| 21:29.36 | Tekkub | I read my suggestions too! |
| 21:29.55 | Tekkub | I'm sure they do read it |
| 21:30.06 | Dagmar | ...and they laugh and they laugh |
| 21:30.10 | ScytheBlade1 | I give it a day before we have a blue post on the general forum, in a thread from a carbonite fan whining about this |
| 21:30.12 | *** join/#wowuidev Cairenn (n=Cairenn@MMOI/Administratrix/Cairenn) |
| 21:30.12 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o Cairenn] by ChanServ |
| 21:30.14 | Tekkub | that doesn't mean it's an effective way to get things impemented |
| 21:30.22 | ScytheBlade1 | It is going to explode pretty darn quick |
| 21:30.36 | Dagmar | It means I can't do a StalkingYourCarbon addon |
| 21:30.43 | Lopeppeppy | Of course it will, ScytheBlade1. And when the dust clears, we'll be the better for a clear policy and no more jerks. |
| 21:30.43 | Tekkub | who wants to go play hide and explode on the forums with me? |
| 21:30.53 | Lopeppeppy | Tekkub! *laugh* |
| 21:30.59 | ScytheBlade1 | cog|work: bump those threads! ;) |
| 21:31.21 | Slakah | Who wants to make the first "RIP Carbonite" thread? |
| 21:31.49 | Tekkub | nah, make a "If I pay for Carbonite will I get banned?" one |
| 21:31.52 | NeoTron | Iriel: why should addon load process have any effect on if you stay connected or not? |
| 21:32.11 | Tekkub | if it takes too long the game times out |
| 21:32.19 | ScytheBlade1 | NeoTron: some do on lower end computers. They lock up long enough to DC users, esp. in high player density areas |
| 21:32.20 | Dagmar | NeoTron: Lag the CPU and poof you timeout |
| 21:32.22 | NeoTron | Lopeppeppy: and it's not necessarily a specific addon (in the general case). it can be just the number of addons |
| 21:32.25 | Iriel | NeoTron: Blizzard's design is to give addons a LOT of flexibility, they're not walled into a tiny cpu-restricted world. This gives them rope to hang themselves with. |
| 21:32.34 | Dagmar | QH used to be a LOT worse than it is now |
| 21:32.37 | Lopeppeppy | But NeoTron, it's still **addons**. :) |
| 21:32.42 | Iriel | NeoTron: If your addon stalls your client for say, 30 seconds, isnt' it okay for the server to think you've disconnected? |
| 21:32.56 | Tekkub | QH can still get better though! |
| 21:32.56 | NeoTron | Iriel: not during inital load when it loads all addons |
| 21:33.05 | selckin | server will disconnect you for opening the mailbox before you are 'fully' loaded these days |
| 21:33.05 | ZorbaGama | tekkub, and it is, in 1.0 ;) |
| 21:33.12 | selckin | no hanging is needed |
| 21:33.13 | Dagmar | I can remember when it would frequently get into some kind of a snit and just start using up every bit of CPU until you smacked it with /qh perf (somesmallnumber) |
| 21:33.56 | Tekkub | the fact that "/qh perf" existed was one of the big things that said "omg this is crap!" |
| 21:33.58 | Dagmar | ...and it's no longer "nomnomnom" about your CPU power the moment you login anymore |
| 21:34.15 | ZorbaGama | tekkub, I disagree on that point, some people have different thresholds for how much CPU they want something to take |
| 21:34.29 | ZorbaGama | as QH has an iterative improving algorithm, it'll basically eat exactly as much as you want to give it |
| 21:34.32 | Tekkub | made me think of the ol' KMFDM "we run the threat meter all the time even when you're in ironforge!" crap |
| 21:34.53 | Lopeppeppy | I remember that crap, Tekkub. |
| 21:35.05 | Tekkub | ZorbaGama, I meant, the fact that the addon needed a throttle in the first place was a bad thing |
| 21:35.29 | Dagmar | Well, they could have just said people need a 3.4Ghz core to use it |
| 21:35.31 | ZorbaGama | but that's my point - a lot of people are absolutely fine running QH at 200% or so. Some people can't bear to have it above 10%. Everyone's threshold is different. |
| 21:35.51 | Dagmar | It's not a *small* bit of work it's gotta do to plot out which objective might be most quickly achieved |
| 21:35.59 | Tekkub | the user shouldn't need to care about that at all |
| 21:36.07 | Tekkub | the point when they do, you've failed |
| 21:36.18 | ZorbaGama | tekkub, but by its very nature, the user does. There's no way to cram what QH does into zero CPU time. |
| 21:37.27 | AckisWork | I still can't see how they can do 1,2 or 5 without getting in a lot of trouble |
| 21:37.58 | ZorbaGama | ackis, it's their servers, they can do whatever they like. All they have to do is ban any addon that doesn't comply with 1, 2, or 5 |
| 21:38.09 | Lopeppeppy | Ackis, gotta have wiggle room. |
| 21:38.54 | AckisWork | ZorbaGama: how can you ban an addon? :P you can't really, you change the api's to block the functionality... it's their servers but not their work, it's anti-competition to an extent |
| 21:39.20 | ScytheBlade1 | AckisWork: GMs have access to your loaded addons. You don't ban the addon, you infraction the user. Tada, addon usage disappears. |
| 21:39.29 | *** join/#wowuidev rhlbkrsd (n=rhlbkrsd@209.216.196.2) |
| 21:39.42 | AckisWork | ScytheBlade1: lots of ways around that, it's just a name |
| 21:39.50 | *** join/#wowuidev ioczgd (n=ioczgd@206.251.250.219) |
| 21:39.54 | ScytheBlade1 | ! |
| 21:39.55 | *** join/#wowuidev tucsbkgn (n=tucsbkgn@206.251.250.211) |
| 21:39.56 | ScytheBlade1 | BOTSPAM |
| 21:39.59 | Slakah | and people are gonna risk being banned? |
| 21:40.22 | Lopeppeppy | Not once they hear that people are being banned because of ScytheBlade's Cool Addon. They'll stop using it. |
| 21:40.59 | ScytheBlade1 | Cairenn: poke prod |
| 21:41.04 | Cairenn | ScytheBlade1: hmm? |
| 21:41.06 | AckisWork | eh this opens up a whole can of worms for blizzard... how many mods are they going to lose because of this? |
| 21:41.23 | Lopeppeppy | Some, Ackis. |
| 21:41.25 | ScytheBlade1 | Cairenn: ioczgd, rhlbkrsd, tucsbkgn... those three that just joined.. |
| 21:41.27 | Lopeppeppy | But there will always be more. |
| 21:41.29 | Legorol | AckisWork: one word for you: Glider. |
| 21:41.43 | ScytheBlade1 | Cairenn: my botspam sense is tingling :P |
| 21:41.52 | Cairenn | mine too, will watch |
| 21:41.52 | AckisWork | Legorol: glider was a 3rd party application... imo comparing it to addons is apples and oranges |
| 21:42.08 | Legorol | AckisWork: even though it was a 3rd party writing a 3rd party app, they damn well managed to nuke the hell out of the author. |
| 21:42.22 | ScytheBlade1 | Err, who is Imagem? |
| 21:42.28 | Legorol | if anything, Blizz has *less* ability to control what Glider does than an addon |
| 21:42.28 | ScytheBlade1 | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15864747207&sid=1#10 <-- that post |
| 21:42.33 | Legorol | an addon is more tightly coupled to WoW |
| 21:42.41 | Legorol | that's what i was trying to say |
| 21:42.59 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+rR] by Cairenn |
| 21:43.09 | ScytheBlade1 | ha, called it |
| 21:43.28 | NeoTron | AckisWork: afaik they do have functionality to ban addons but I guess it's by name or something |
| 21:43.30 | *** kick/#WoWUIDev [tucsbkgn!n=Cairenn@MMOI/Administratrix/Cairenn] by Cairenn (Cairenn) |
| 21:43.43 | *** kick/#WoWUIDev [ioczgd!n=Cairenn@MMOI/Administratrix/Cairenn] by Cairenn (Cairenn) |
| 21:45.09 | Esamynn | heh, one of them got k-lined before Cairenn even got to kicking it |
| 21:45.12 | AckisWork | NeoTron: they ban Ackis Recipe List, I release as Ackis Recipe List v2 or something... not an effective solution (kinda playing devils advocate there :P)... another thing that's different from glidder/wow api is the wow api is opened by blizzard... it's in books, on the wiki, etc... *shrugs* I just don't like this thing one bit and I'm actually surprised |
| 21:45.16 | Cairenn | yup |
| 21:45.34 | kd3 | oh wow. win. no more obfuscated code? |
| 21:45.37 | Tekkub | hey cog|fuming... piss off :P |
| 21:45.42 | Tekkub | <--- beardyhead |
| 21:46.07 | Esamynn | AckisWork: cut off after "and I'm actually surprised" |
| 21:46.19 | AckisWork | Esamynn: yah noticed... |
| 21:46.37 | ScytheBlade1 | kd3: I'm skimming general. The moment it hits there and gets the slightest bit of traction.... |
| 21:46.58 | Esamynn | AckisWork: hey, just in case there was something more :P |
| 21:47.06 | AckisWork | basically was i'm surprised that a lot of people seem to support the whole thing in here, I would've thought I'd see the opposite reaction... sure there are a couple good points in it, but overall I think it's terrible... and a lot of it was already being done by the distribution sites (aka curse/wowi) |
| 21:47.13 | AckisWork | Esamynn: hehe <3 |
| 21:47.40 | Lopeppeppy | This is something that people have asked for *repeatedly* in the UI/Macro forum, demanding "blue response" to for pay addons, code obfuscation and the like. |
| 21:47.41 | Arrowmaster | who is going to break the news to the general forums that carbonite wont become free but instead will just die while its authors are finally forced to go get real jobs |
| 21:47.51 | Lopeppeppy | This is the response, for good or for bad. |
| 21:47.53 | NeoTron | AckisWork: it doesn't affect me negatively at all so why would I object? |
| 21:47.53 | Legorol | AckisWork: i actually see it the opposite way. Most of the stuff restricted by the policy already only effects marginal cases like Carbonite |
| 21:48.05 | Legorol | the only thing that was in widespread use that can't be done anymore is donation buttons in-game |
| 21:48.18 | AckisWork | Lopeppeppy: you just touched on the only 2 good points in it, all the rest was already enforced by the sites OR is going to far... |
| 21:48.20 | Legorol | other than that, i don't see how this impacts the majority of addons that are currently out there with good intentions |
| 21:48.38 | AckisWork | Legorol: technically my addon having the x-donate field is a violation now |
| 21:49.03 | Slakah | really? |
| 21:49.08 | Slakah | does it show anything ingame? |
| 21:49.16 | Legorol | AckisWork: i'd email the wowui@ link about that one, i'm not so sure |
| 21:49.17 | Tekkub | odd, the forums is reporting me as in the guild I got removed from while I was in beta |
| 21:49.20 | Legorol | that one doesn't appear in-game |
| 21:49.28 | Tekkub | because I wasn't "active" in a fucking casual guild |
| 21:49.30 | AckisWork | it's ingame with code, and can be seen |
| 21:49.42 | AckisWork | ie: libaboutpanel displays it |
| 21:49.50 | Esamynn | hmm |
| 21:49.51 | *** join/#wowuidev ecstasia (n=ecs@unaffiliated/ecstasia) |
| 21:49.54 | Tekkub | libaboutpanel sucks! |
| 21:49.59 | Esamynn | lol |
| 21:50.11 | Tekkub | and why the hell am I listed as an author, I didn't write that lib :P |
| 21:50.11 | AckisWork | Tekkub: I agree! :P I should call it LibAbootPanel |
| 21:50.13 | Legorol | AckisWork: does it impact your actual income if you remove that field? |
| 21:50.18 | AckisWork | Tekkub: yes you did |
| 21:50.22 | Tekkub | no, you did |
| 21:50.23 | Dagmar | AckisWork: Worst-case scenario just make it so the thing shows a button that's the same whether you've set a donation location or not, and make them have to click it to find out |
| 21:50.25 | AckisWork | Legorol: I don't ask for money in that field |
| 21:50.26 | Iriel | Completely not on topic -- this is the best line i've seen in a movie review in a while "It's pretty much impossible to take the rest of a film seriously once you've seen a flaming moose running toward the camera in slow motion." |
| 21:50.35 | kd3 | lmfao |
| 21:50.36 | kd3 | ahahaha |
| 21:50.39 | Thunder_Child | Iriel, Knowing |
| 21:50.41 | NightHawkTheSane | Iriel: nice. |
| 21:50.43 | Lopeppeppy | Demand policy, but complain when you get it that it does more than you wanted? |
| 21:50.43 | Iriel | Thunder_Child: Yup |
| 21:50.46 | Tekkub | derived from != I was an author |
| 21:51.00 | NeoTron | Iriel: ... what movie? |
| 21:51.05 | Thunder_Child | Iriel, i saw it last night, it's a "interesting, but i wouldnt pay to watch it" |
| 21:51.05 | Dagmar | If you make it presenting the donation info something that requires a specific action from the user beyond the usual, you should be fine |
| 21:51.07 | AckisWork | Legorol: I ask for people to donate time at an animal shelter or send me UDE points or give me a murky code :P heh but they're still donations |
| 21:51.14 | AckisWork | Tekkub: meh you did 95% of the work on it |
| 21:51.16 | Tekkub | Lopeppeppy, go beat cog|fuming for me |
| 21:51.17 | Thunder_Child | NeoTron, Knowing |
| 21:51.19 | Legorol | AckisWork: then it sounds like other than irking you a bit, it doesn't have huge practical consequences |
| 21:51.22 | Tekkub | he's being like a total dick |
| 21:51.27 | Iriel | The review started with "If you see only one bad movie this year, definitely make it "Knowing."" |
| 21:51.29 | Slakah | I'm actually tempted to see Knowing, now that you mentioned that. |
| 21:51.33 | Iriel | http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/03/20/DDLG16IL0E.DTL&type=movies |
| 21:51.40 | Tekkub | AckisWork, still it's not my lib and I don't want credit :P |
| 21:51.43 | Lopeppeppy | Tekkub darling, you have to beat him yourself, I'm all out of wet noodles. |
| 21:51.48 | Thunder_Child | it had great CGI, thats all i can say thats good about it |
| 21:52.01 | Tekkub | Lopeppeppy, he wouldn't like mine I'm sure |
| 21:52.07 | NeoTron | ... |
| 21:52.08 | AckisWork | Tekkub: meh ok I'll remove you then =/ just wanted to give you credit for your work, you could've complained to me a long time ago you know? :P |
| 21:52.18 | Dagmar | Ackis: "[...] should not appear in the game [...]" |
| 21:52.39 | cog|fuming | ZorbaGama: you have my sympathy :( |
| 21:52.47 | AckisWork | Legorol: it has no practical implications for me at all since I haven't got anything for the work I do... 0 donations... prolly because I've never setup a donation link ever... |
| 21:52.50 | AckisWork | Dagmar: it can be |
| 21:52.54 | Dagmar | I'm not saying it's a loophole or anything, but you could probably construe that to not have to kill the x-donate field |
| 21:53.18 | Tekkub | AckisWork, I thought I told you way back in the end that you don't have to credit me |
| 21:53.20 | AckisWork | Dagmar: oh I'm not going to remove it, in fact I was thinking of adding donation buttons to my mod now |
| 21:53.27 | Dagmar | A user should still be able to query an addon explicitly and find that out |
| 21:53.33 | ZorbaGama | cog, it's honestly appreciated :) |
| 21:53.44 | Dagmar | ...but if the addon up and says it unsolicited that would be a problem |
| 21:53.46 | ZorbaGama | really is a pity though, I was enjoying my work on QH. And I had such ideas for the future, too. |
| 21:53.50 | Tekkub | in general I don't want credit because than it looks like I'm the one that wrote it when I have my own version that I did :P |
| 21:54.13 | AckisWork | Tekkub: 90% of the code is from your stuff anyways :P |
| 21:54.14 | Tekkub | ZorbaGama, we get it, so just quit already :P |
| 21:54.38 | Tekkub | man, this is like "oh my god they nerfed my class I'm gonna quit" bullshit with addon devs |
| 21:54.53 | Tekkub | DRAMA QUEENS THE WHOLE FUCKING LOT OF YOU! |
| 21:55.13 | AckisWork | Tekkub: you know what would cause drama? :P |
| 21:55.16 | ZorbaGama | tekkub, hey, I just got fired, deal :) |
| 21:55.27 | Dagmar | #4 means no more "automatic trade spam" |
| 21:55.31 | AckisWork | if you and Arrowmaster somehow managed to have a baby... :P God help us all then *snickers* |
| 21:55.31 | Tekkub | no, you just quit |
| 21:55.41 | Tekkub | if you'd been fired you could claim unemployment |
| 21:55.43 | Tekkub | BIG DIFF |
| 21:55.52 | kd3 | Dagmar, oh wow, win |
| 21:55.53 | *** join/#wowuidev Antiarc (n=Antiarc@wsip-70-167-195-98.ph.ph.cox.net) |
| 21:56.05 | Tekkub | <--- living with someone that quit before he got let go |
| 21:56.25 | ZorbaGama | self-employed people don't get to claim unemployment ;) when you're an entreprenur, things work a bit differently |
| 21:56.27 | Tekkub | Dagmar, #4 means no more ABUSIVE auto spam |
| 21:56.28 | Dagmar | They were just vague enough to forbid an addon advertising in-game services |
| 21:56.38 | kd3 | ^ |
| 21:56.50 | Tekkub | self-employed people can't be fired |
| 21:56.51 | Dagmar | Tekkub: It doesn't say how much, it just says "may not" basically. |
| 21:56.56 | cog|work | Tekkub: you need to go take some economics clasess. you seem to have a rather marxist perspective of the whole situation |
| 21:57.00 | Tekkub | so your original argument doesn't work! |
| 21:57.18 | Dagmar | They might wind up rewording that a bit |
| 21:57.25 | AckisWork | cog|work: we all knew he was a dirty commy! |
| 21:57.26 | Tekkub | cog|work, no, I'm just the only one here not all pissed off |
| 21:57.38 | cog|work | that's fine |
| 21:57.41 | cog|work | don't tell us not to be |
| 21:57.47 | Tekkub | everyone's taking this shit all person, ESPECIALLY you |
| 21:57.55 | AckisWork | Tekkub: there's a lot of other people that aren't pissed either |
| 21:58.04 | cog|work | how can i take it personally? it doesn't affect any of my addons :> |
| 21:58.15 | cog|work | this is a principle thing for me |
| 21:58.22 | ZorbaGama | I'm not pissed, honestly, I'm just mildly sad :P it's their right and all |
| 21:58.22 | Tekkub | and I would think you of all people would understand why each one of those things was added, and the degree that blizzy is going to enforce them |
| 21:58.55 | cog|work | Tekkub: i can understand their motivation behind everything but #1 |
| 21:59.06 | Tekkub | cog|work, every time you say "MINE" in caps it just *screams* personal |
| 21:59.09 | cog|work | I respectfully disagree with 2, 4, 5 |
| 21:59.15 | cog|work | Tekkub: debatorial me |
| 21:59.21 | Slakah | So you think #1 is worse than #5? |
| 21:59.22 | Tekkub | what was #1 |
| 21:59.25 | Tekkub | ah money |
| 21:59.27 | ScytheBlade1 | no payment |
| 21:59.45 | Tekkub | they decided they don't like people charging |
| 21:59.49 | cog|work | Slakah: only because it directly affects what addons are able to do in-game |
| 21:59.54 | Legorol | cog|work: may i try to present an argument about #1 to you? |
| 22:00.02 | cog|work | sure :) |
| 22:00.09 | Dagmar | That sours the milk a bit for wowecon I suppose |
| 22:00.09 | Legorol | I came to the following thoughts: |
| 22:00.32 | cog|work | actually, they might as well have told me and jnwhiteh that we can't profit from our book |
| 22:00.37 | Legorol | Extreme #1: Let's say I write a piece of software and release it. Someone fixes a bug in it and creates a patch, then starts distributing said patch, then starts charging for it. |
| 22:00.54 | Tekkub | cog|work, book doesn't require their game to function |
| 22:00.56 | Legorol | Please think about this example a little bit, whilst I type out extreme #2 |
| 22:01.06 | Arrowmaster | Legorol: what license did you release the code under? |
| 22:01.09 | cog|work | Tekkub: and addons don't require their game to create and distribute |
| 22:01.09 | Tekkub | addons exist within their rules, book does not |
| 22:01.23 | Legorol | Arrowmaster: non-open source, fully proprietary |
| 22:01.24 | cog|work | Tekkub: heard of wowbench? |
| 22:01.33 | jnwhiteh | cog|work: no, do not speak for me. |
| 22:01.33 | cog|work | outdated, maybe, but point still stands |
| 22:01.34 | Dagmar | I don't see how *any* of that policy statement could affect a book |
| 22:01.35 | Arrowmaster | Legorol: then its your legal right to prevent them |
| 22:01.44 | cog|work | jnwhiteh: i wasn't applying my opinion to you |
| 22:01.49 | Legorol | Extreme #2: I write a software that is intended to be a platform for 3rd party development, for example I make an OS, and people start developing applications for it. |
| 22:01.50 | jnwhiteh | no, but the damage is done |
| 22:01.56 | Tekkub | and if you're not running the addon in the game, then it can't fall within these rules |
| 22:01.57 | jnwhiteh | and I would appreciate if you leave the book out of it, entirelyl. |
| 22:02.09 | Tekkub | go go clad |
| 22:02.14 | *** join/#wowuidev sioraiocht (n=sioraioc@78-86-82-152.zone2.bethere.co.uk) |
| 22:02.20 | Legorol | In my opinion, under extreme #1, i have every right to shut people down who distribute patches (morally and legally), whereas under #2 I don't. |
| 22:02.47 | Legorol | The reason I brought up these two extremes is because imo addons fall on a *grey territory* that's somewhere between those two |
| 22:02.49 | cog|work | Legorol: i disagree completely |
| 22:02.54 | Legorol | and if anything, it's closer to #1 than it is to #2 |
| 22:03.03 | cog|work | i don't believe you have that right in either case |
| 22:03.04 | Dagmar | Well, we can say for surely that they're NOT #2, so you have a problem |
| 22:03.04 | Legorol | because of this, I'm uncertain about the legalities surrounding addons |
| 22:03.18 | Arrowmaster | the only thing that matters in that situation is the license the original code is in |
| 22:03.22 | Legorol | cog|work: i'm fairly certain that in example #1, i have the right to shut down patches. Patches are derivative works. |
| 22:03.34 | selckin | legal or not, no addon author is gonna fight blizzard in court, whatever they say goes |
| 22:03.48 | cog|work | selckin: yeah, it's just another case of might makes right |
| 22:03.50 | Legorol | selckin: that doesn't stop us from discussing it though |
| 22:03.54 | NeoTron | Tekkub: don't forget me. I'm not pissed off ;-) |
| 22:03.58 | ScytheBlade1 | selckin: better question: will blizzard fight an addon author in court? |
| 22:03.59 | Tekkub | uh, #1 has nothing to do with derivative works of your addon :P |
| 22:04.07 | Legorol | Tekkub: i'm not talking about addons |
| 22:04.09 | Tekkub | that's just plain ol copyright there |
| 22:04.17 | Dagmar | Exactly |
| 22:04.21 | Legorol | this is why i brought up #1 as an example |
| 22:04.38 | *** join/#wowuidev Adys (n=Adys@unaffiliated/adys) |
| 22:04.39 | Legorol | i'm saying that conceivably, lawyers might be able to argue that an addon is more like a patch |
| 22:04.46 | Legorol | so it's more like #1 than it is #2 |
| 22:04.57 | Dagmar | Legorol: They would lose that argument tho |
| 22:05.00 | Tekkub | well lawyers are idiots |
| 22:05.19 | Lopeppeppy | Lawyers exist to debate and argue. That's their job. |
| 22:05.20 | Legorol | i'm not a lawyer, so i wouldn't know the answer |
| 22:05.23 | Dagmar | You can't materially deform one of the arguments in a comparison |
| 22:05.41 | Legorol | i'd guess that a court and a judge would be needed to decide if an addon was like #1 or #2 |
| 22:05.53 | Legorol | it's definitely somewhere between those two |
| 22:05.56 | Tekkub | an addon isn't a patch or a derrivitive work, but by using the game's API it's going to be governed on the terms that come with access to that API |
| 22:06.03 | Tekkub | and we just got our official terms |
| 22:06.19 | Legorol | Tekkub: i beleive what cog|work is arguing is who is and isn't bound by those terms |
| 22:06.24 | Dagmar | It would take a judge all of 10 minutes to decide they're not, using a simple dictionary |
| 22:06.33 | Legorol | if you go and read the wowbook for example, you never come into a contractual relationship with Blizzard |
| 22:06.48 | Beladona | addons enhance gameplay. You can argue they don't, but they do. I am not surprised that Blizzard feels as though they have a right to require all users have an equal opportunity to gain that enhancement |
| 22:06.52 | Tekkub | aye, and if you're loading the addon in the game, you and that addon are bound to those terms |
| 22:07.03 | Legorol | sure |
| 22:07.05 | Beladona | it just sucks |
| 22:07.28 | Dagmar | The terms addon and patch are used to mean separate things in the computing industry |
| 22:07.29 | Legorol | i see what cog is trying to argue: if you never load the game yourself, and you never come into contact with blizzard yourself, how can you be bound by their terms |
| 22:07.45 | Dagmar | Just because they do similar things, doesn't mean they're the same. |
| 22:07.50 | Lopeppeppy | Reference the recent myspace suicide case, Legorol. |
| 22:07.52 | Legorol | what i was trying to say in response is that (as is clear with patches), there might be legal grounds which tie you up anyway |
| 22:07.58 | Lopeppeppy | There are. |
| 22:08.04 | cog|work | Legorol: with the added point that the addons must not cause the users to violate the tou/eula |
| 22:08.19 | cog|work | since that would be tortious interference with contractual obligations ;) |
| 22:08.20 | Legorol | Lopeppeppy: as far as i understood the myspace thingy, the person in question was at least using myspace |
| 22:08.28 | Legorol | but was just trying to claim to be unaware of the terms |
| 22:08.34 | Legorol | that's apples and oranges with this one |
| 22:08.38 | Lopeppeppy | But claimed since she never saw the ToS she wasn't bound by it. |
| 22:08.48 | Lopeppeppy | Most of this debate over legality is apples and oranges, Legorol. |
| 22:08.49 | Legorol | that's a different scenario |
| 22:08.52 | Dagmar | Well, I mean specifically _because_ the two terms have different and separate meanings in the terminology of the relevant industry would cause a judge to toss that argument rather quickly. |
| 22:08.56 | Tekkub | Legorol, and I agree that if you never load the game, these terms don't apply :P |
| 22:09.03 | Lopeppeppy | They're all different scenarios, that's what makes law "fun". |
| 22:09.18 | Legorol | Tekkub: that's my point, that the terms may not apply, but copyright law does :) |
| 22:09.31 | Legorol | and i have a suspicion that copyright law may give enough protection to blizzard |
| 22:09.35 | Tekkub | okey, so uhm, I forgot what we were arguing |
| 22:09.43 | cog|work | Beladona: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15864747207&sid=1&pageNo=3#40 in case you didn't see |
| 22:09.47 | Tekkub | back to "cog's a pissy bitch" then |
| 22:09.49 | Legorol | hehe |
| 22:09.54 | Beladona | I did |
| 22:10.04 | Beladona | I don't fault you for being upset cog|work, btw |
| 22:10.09 | Beladona | just trying to keep it civil |
| 22:10.09 | cog|work | *nod* |
| 22:10.13 | Beladona | we are all affected by this |
| 22:10.27 | NeoTron | blanket statement is blanket |
| 22:10.31 | NeoTron | since I'm not affected by it |
| 22:10.45 | cog|work | NeoTron: you are |
| 22:10.49 | cog|work | not directly but you are |
| 22:10.53 | Legorol | cog|work: all i was trying to argue is that the legalities of this may not be as black and white as you or I might think |
| 22:10.55 | Beladona | you are if you develop an addon. It has an affect on what choices you have during taht development |
| 22:11.00 | cog|work | this policy can't help but effect everyone in the community |
| 22:11.00 | Beladona | even if you wouldn't make those choices anyway |
| 22:11.52 | Lopeppeppy | Legorol, you are very extremely correct. |
| 22:12.04 | NeoTron | cog|work: it affects me yes, in that I can expect to not see obfuscated code and such. It doesn't affect me negatively might be a more proper statement |
| 22:12.20 | AckisWork | Hm what about an addon that makes you go to a web-page to get a free code to enter to get it to work... and that code changes weekly? lol |
| 22:12.23 | Dagmar | "So the argument that you can ask for donations on your web site but not in game carries no water. " <-- glaring non-sequitir |
| 22:12.26 | cog|work | it doesn't have any effect on your own development habits :) |
| 22:12.30 | NeoTron | Beladona: and yes that is true but the keyword is it doesn't change what choices I've already made |
| 22:12.44 | Beladona | agreed |
| 22:12.45 | NeoTron | cog|work: correct |
| 22:12.47 | Beladona | nor does it mine |
| 22:12.50 | cog|work | but then again, depending on the whole addon ecosystem, your motivations to add particular features may change in the future |
| 22:12.58 | cog|work | not that you'd ever be able to tell what it would've been otherwise |
| 22:13.06 | Lopeppeppy | The sky may fall in the future, darlin', and we'll never know until we go see. |
| 22:13.09 | NeoTron | I also think #5 is excessiev if it affects a non-intrusive donate button |
| 22:13.10 | cog|work | opportunity costs will be hidden from view |
| 22:13.23 | NeoTron | but if it affects ingame "donate reminders" only it's fine |
| 22:13.24 | Beladona | if you die in your sleep, do you know it? |
| 22:13.36 | Lopeppeppy | They always are. So are detrimental aspects. Change is *not* bad in and of itself. |
| 22:13.36 | cog|work | not unless there's an afterlife |
| 22:13.50 | Lopeppeppy | Why are we getting existential about addon development, for the sake of cats? |
| 22:13.54 | Lopeppeppy | Change happens, move on. |
| 22:13.59 | Beladona | because it wags the dog |
| 22:14.03 | Dagmar | NeoTron: I was just saying earlier that if one puts this information under a button that requires the user click it, i.e., the user has to go out of their way to find this info, then it's not a solicitation |
| 22:14.19 | Beladona | one could probably argue that |
| 22:14.32 | NeoTron | and I can almost guarantee it's a direct response to Carbonite's popup ads |
| 22:14.33 | Dagmar | Someone who puts a button that says "donation info" on their about box that isn't shoved in the user's face should not fall afoul of that stanza |
| 22:14.35 | Beladona | one should maybe post asking that |
| 22:14.43 | NeoTron | they don't wont WoW to become web 2.0 and for that I am grateful |
| 22:14.50 | Beladona | assuming blues would respond (maybe they won't?) |
| 22:15.34 | Beladona | by the same token |
| 22:15.38 | Lopeppeppy | They likely can't, Beladona. |
| 22:15.38 | Beladona | what about sigs on forums? |
| 22:15.53 | Lopeppeppy | But send the nice email, WoWUI@blizzard.com. |
| 22:15.56 | Beladona | can this extend to you having a sig that says "donate to my addon" |
| 22:16.03 | AckisWork | Lopeppeppy: does it have to be nice? |
| 22:16.05 | Beladona | and that being not allowed? |
| 22:16.12 | Arrowmaster | Zootfizzle: do you feel our pain? |
| 22:16.15 | Beladona | meaning official forums I mean |
| 22:16.33 | Dagmar | Why would it _need_ to extend to that, the Blizz forums already have a nice set of rules that apply to them |
| 22:17.06 | Adys | ~make Arrowmaster feel the pain |
| 22:17.07 | purl | make: *** No rule to make target `Arrowmaster feel the pain'. Stop. |
| 22:17.13 | Beladona | do those rules cover this though? |
| 22:17.16 | kd3 | lol |
| 22:17.20 | Dagmar | Why *would* they |
| 22:17.24 | Dagmar | The forums are not an addon |
| 22:17.32 | Beladona | I just want to know if we are allowed to "solicit" on their forums |
| 22:17.36 | Dagmar | The forums are also rather recognizably not "in game" |
| 22:17.38 | Beladona | it is theirs after all |
| 22:17.42 | kd3 | afaik, no |
| 22:18.03 | Dagmar | You might as well be asking if Iowa motorcycle operation guidelines should apply to the Blizz forums. |
| 22:18.14 | Beladona | actually |
| 22:18.24 | Beladona | these both come from Blizz, so taht isn't an accurate comparison |
| 22:18.28 | kd3 | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/forum-coc.html?sid=1#_Toc127268914 |
| 22:18.36 | Lopeppeppy | Ackis, at least polite |
| 22:18.42 | Dagmar | Okay, so that was secretly a jibe that most forum users should always wear safety helmets, but I couldn't resist. |
| 22:19.04 | Dagmar | The forums already have their own guidelines |
| 22:19.06 | *** join/#wowuidev Wobin (n=Wobin@124-168-131-220.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 22:19.20 | Beladona | arguably forums users shoudl wear blinders too, but you know |
| 22:19.28 | Beladona | or maybe they already do? I can't remember |
| 22:19.31 | Dagmar | Bibs. |
| 22:19.37 | Dagmar | They're called bibs. |
| 22:20.39 | Wobin | Antiarc: Happy Birthday! (Or am I a day early?) |
| 22:20.41 | Beladona | there goes my plans to charge for a "You lose! Good Day Sir" that plays when people fail to Flame Walls |
| 22:20.44 | krka | lol Tekkub |
| 22:20.50 | Antiarc | Wobin: The 28th |
| 22:20.54 | Antiarc | But thank you :D |
| 22:21.03 | Wobin | pft, better a week early than a week late! |
| 22:21.04 | Dagmar | Beladona: Yeah, I noticed that clause early on. |
| 22:21.21 | Dagmar | I was really thinking about a "negative reinforcement" addon |
| 22:21.22 | Lopeppeppy | Happy early, Antiarc!! |
| 22:21.53 | Dagmar | It doesn't seem terribly hard ot test for conditions like "died in a void zone" and then put angrytext all over their screen |
| 22:22.23 | kd3 | meh, my RL has the "x failed at y (z times!)" mod running in /ra |
| 22:22.57 | kd3 | which is a pretty decent negative reinforcement all on its own |
| 22:23.48 | Lopeppeppy | "I will not move when the flame wreath is cast or the raid blows up." |
| 22:24.18 | Dagmar | First thing I did screwing around with the UI in beta was just to make the release dialog simply say "FAIL" in enormous letters. |
| 22:25.18 | Dagmar | It can help your focus. |
| 22:26.17 | ScytheBlade1 | kd3: heh, I read your post and went "heh, that is a pretty good summation of a lot of the thread, this guy has some sense" and then noticed it was you. Talk about a letdown ;) |
| 22:26.33 | Lopeppeppy | :P |
| 22:26.49 | Beladona | zing! |
| 22:26.59 | kd3 | lol |
| 22:28.17 | |Jelly| | Zorba: Edit: Judging from your comment, you may be using the Wowmatrix version - Wowmatrix actually modifies the ingame files so you don't see any request for donation. QH does (did) have an infrequent donation request that it would pop up. " I use the WoWI one and never noticed a window pop up. :( |
| 22:28.46 | Cairenn | we don't touch the authors' files at all |
| 22:29.18 | |Jelly| | Oh, I wasn't trying to imply that at all. :P I was just simply stating that I use the one off WoWI and never saw the ad in game. |
| 22:29.28 | ZorbaGama | jelly, it's not a window, it's just a little notification on startup. I set it to be unobtrusive |
| 22:29.44 | Arrowmaster | is it an actual popup or just printing to the chatframe? i know last time i used QH which was quite a while ago it printed a donation line onload |
| 22:29.47 | |Jelly| | Oh. I guess I'm not observant enough. :( |
| 22:29.48 | ZorbaGama | perhaps too unobtrusive :) I suppose if this all gets reverted somehow, I'll have to dig into it and see if it's just not showing up on some people's systems |
| 22:29.58 | ZorbaGama | chatframe, I've only had one donation message ever |
| 22:30.07 | Dagmar | It's because their RNG is broken and is only giving low numbers. |
| 22:30.12 | ZorbaGama | popups would annoy me, and my policy has always been to never do anything which I personally would get pissed off at :) |
| 22:30.24 | Arrowmaster | ZorbaGama: when does it print exactly? |
| 22:30.52 | ZorbaGama | arrow, 5 seconds after the first instance of any one of half a dozen messages (it's rather hard to detect "we've logged on", but I did my best) |
| 22:30.55 | ZorbaGama | maybe it was one second |
| 22:31.19 | ZorbaGama | the goal was to get it past all the "logging on, connecting to chat channels" spam, but still have it be effectively when-you-log-on, not spamming you in the middle of Heigan or whatever |
| 22:31.36 | ZorbaGama | (and if you logged off in the middle of Heigan a little message is the least of your worries) |
| 22:31.42 | Arrowmaster | ZorbaGama: i do know that in Chatter there was an issue where changing one of the setting of the chatframe causes it to be completely cleared so a module was created to detect the gmotd and reprint it a second or two later |
| 22:32.03 | ZorbaGama | arrow, hah, nice. I wonder if that was the problem. |
| 22:33.49 | *** join/#wowuidev Antiarc (n=Antiarc@wsip-70-167-195-98.ph.ph.cox.net) |
| 22:43.33 | *** join/#wowuidev DWSR (n=doingwha@24.114.252.240) |
| 22:45.32 | DWSR | wow, Bliz just totally owned Carbonite. |
| 22:45.58 | Corrodias | hmm? |
| 22:46.03 | Tekkub | you're late to the drama |
| 22:46.04 | DWSR | link in topic. |
| 22:46.13 | Dagmar | I think Ackis might wind up being used as example of what's okay to do |
| 22:46.15 | Lopeppeppy | A few hours late. |
| 22:46.32 | DWSR | I think it's good of them to do. |
| 22:46.44 | DWSR | The donation bit is a bit much, imo, but meh. Everything else I agree with |
| 22:46.50 | Tekkub | yea so do all of us except cog |
| 22:46.58 | Dagmar | Well, they phrased it as a "solicitation" |
| 22:47.15 | Dagmar | That's fairly specific verbiage in some respects. |
| 22:47.15 | Tekkub | yea to me "solicitation" is directly asking |
| 22:47.22 | Corrodias | i wonder why they've decided to interfere -now- |
| 22:47.23 | Tekkub | not simply providing links |
| 22:47.27 | Corrodias | after letting it go for so many years |
| 22:47.28 | Tekkub | but I don't do that anyway |
| 22:47.39 | Dagmar | If the information isn't being put in someone's face unrequested in some explicit way, then it's hardly a solicitation |
| 22:47.43 | Tekkub | because Carbonite stepped it up a notch |
| 22:47.52 | Lopeppeppy | Corrodias, people have been "demanding" blue responses on these issues off and on for about 6 months. Why wouldn't they respond? |
| 22:48.02 | Dagmar | There were a few plugins that were starting to lean towards being nagware actually |
| 22:48.03 | mikma | i agree with all steps. |
| 22:48.06 | End | wow |
| 22:48.13 | End | I've never EVER had a more terrible AV |
| 22:48.14 | Corrodias | what? who was being required to use bad addons? |
| 22:48.17 | Tekkub | paid Carbonite was a grey area |
| 22:48.19 | mikma | thats because i dont beg money with my sucky addons. |
| 22:48.20 | End | no KBs on my side |
| 22:48.21 | Tekkub | showing ads isn't |
| 22:48.23 | cog|work | why do you people agree with #1? |
| 22:48.32 | Tekkub | so they can now declare policy, cover all bases |
| 22:48.32 | cog|work | because YOU don't want to pay for addons? |
| 22:48.39 | cog|work | or because you don't want other people to have the option? |
| 22:48.49 | cog|work | #1 is lose lose |
| 22:48.49 | Corrodias | i would have thought intellectual property rights concerns would cause youall to be annoyed by these changes |
| 22:48.49 | Tekkub | cog|work, because we do, ugh |
| 22:49.01 | Tekkub | you don't, you go girl |
| 22:49.14 | Dagmar | Having a bunch of begs on the screen kind of takes immersivity out back and shoots it in the face |
| 22:49.34 | Corrodias | i missed the memo where people were being required to use an obtrusive addon >_> |
| 22:49.46 | Dagmar | Might as well start having addons with ads for McDonalds figuring prominently on the screen |
| 22:49.47 | PProvost | cog|work: I find #1 quite interesting. I don't understand why Blizz made that decision, but I do understand why the open-source socalist zealots love it. |
| 22:49.50 | DWSR | Corrodias: They shouldn't exist in the first place. |
| 22:49.59 | cog|work | PProvost: lol |
| 22:50.06 | Corrodias | who are you to dictate what other people should produce? |
| 22:50.20 | Dagmar | Theyr'e the people who make the game |
| 22:50.20 | DWSR | Corrodias: Part of the consumer base. Welcome to capitalism. |
| 22:50.21 | Corrodias | what other people should -want-? |
| 22:50.22 | cog|work | DWSR: thought so... spite |
| 22:50.32 | cog|work | you'd rather everyone be worse off than some people have more than others |
| 22:50.38 | Dagmar | Their statement doesn't dictate what people should want. |
| 22:50.40 | PProvost | I give all my code away, but I don't have a moral opinion that OSS is somehow better than for-profit software. |
| 22:50.40 | Tekkub | hey now, I'm not a zealot, I just don't believe in paying for things |
| 22:50.42 | DWSR | cog|work: Yawn. I'm all for capitalism. |
| 22:50.44 | Corrodias | you misunderstand capitalism. that's where you vote for what you want by paying for it or not paying. |
| 22:50.52 | PProvost | Fact is, my day job is about making tons of money selling software. |
| 22:50.53 | Tekkub | but then as cog|whine pointed out, I failed economics |
| 22:50.55 | DWSR | Capitalism is how I stay ahead of curve. I still don't pay for my shit. |
| 22:50.58 | Corrodias | what we're talking about here is putting law in place. |
| 22:51.14 | Dagmar | So, how is it their game is supposed to follow the "rules of capitalism" exactly? |
| 22:51.24 | Tekkub | I don't think OOS is "better" either, it just fits my "not paying for shit" attitude |
| 22:51.28 | Dagmar | What makes that anything even resembling a requirement? |
| 22:51.35 | Corrodias | i don't see how making people unable to sell their work to be, in any way, supportive of capitalism |
| 22:51.40 | Corrodias | *to be -> is |
| 22:51.57 | DWSR | Corrodias: blizzard doesn't want other people making money off of their work (API, client, etc.) |
| 22:51.59 | DWSR | That's how. |
| 22:52.02 | PProvost | Sure Tek, but this is analogous to Apple telling people who could or couldn't build on the iPhone |
| 22:52.03 | Dagmar | Corrodias: So again, whered you get the idea that the game has to have anything to do with capitalism? |
| 22:52.07 | PProvost | Or the game console people doing the same |
| 22:52.14 | Corrodias | Dagmar: i dunno, DWSR said it |
| 22:52.14 | cog|work | DWSR: they're not making money off blizzard's work |
| 22:52.19 | Lopeppeppy | WoW isn't a democracy. It's not a capitalist society. It's a business. |
| 22:52.22 | PProvost | It just happens that in this case, Blizz is siding with the OSS community |
| 22:52.23 | cog|work | DWSR: they're making money off their OWN work |
| 22:52.23 | Dagmar | PProvost: Oh wait, they *do* that |
| 22:52.29 | DWSR | Lopeppeppy: It's an oligarchy. |
| 22:52.30 | Tekkub | PProvost, uhm, "fucking NDA"? |
| 22:52.38 | DWSR | cog|work: I'm talking about Carbonite. |
| 22:52.41 | DWSR | Or paid addons |
| 22:52.43 | Dagmar | If Apple doens't like yer tool for the iPhone, they can and will bounce it |
| 22:52.52 | cog|work | yes, i'm talking about paid addons... |
| 22:52.56 | Corrodias | and fuck the users who want the tool |
| 22:53.00 | Tekkub | yea apple just silently doesn't let shit onto the store |
| 22:53.00 | PProvost | Dagmar: Exactly. And that is annoying. |
| 22:53.01 | cog|work | the people who made those addons did their own work to make those addons |
| 22:53.02 | Corrodias | apple wins! yay! |
| 22:53.05 | cog|work | that's what they're charging for |
| 22:53.18 | Dagmar | It's their network, they make the rules. |
| 22:53.19 | Tekkub | I will say I hope wow addons never get to the "app store" stage |
| 22:53.21 | PProvost | Game console mfgrs do the same thing |
| 22:53.28 | cog|work | unless they're including blizzard's copyrighted materials (artwork, code, etc.) they're NOT making money off blizzard's work |
| 22:53.33 | Corrodias | of course it's their network, and they make the rules. that doesn't mean i have to say i like the rules. |
| 22:53.39 | PProvost | I'm trying to understand what's in it for Blizz to do #1 |
| 22:53.50 | Tekkub | cog|work, but they wouldn't have a product to market without wow |
| 22:53.55 | cog|work | Tekkub: so? |
| 22:53.58 | Lopeppeppy | What's *not* in it, PProvost? They're a company? |
| 22:54.11 | Dagmar | PProvost: Keeping sleazy markets and "professionals" out of what should be a game |
| 22:54.13 | Corrodias | Blizzard wouldn't have a product to market without Windows >_> |
| 22:54.17 | Tekkub | so it's Blizzy's API, they can impose whatever terms on it they want |
| 22:54.22 | DWSR | ^ |
| 22:54.24 | DWSR | This |
| 22:54.24 | PProvost | So is Microsoft. But they don't tell people whether they can or can't charge for their work |
| 22:54.25 | cog|work | wowinterface wouldn't have a market if it weren't for blizzard |
| 22:54.28 | Dagmar | Let's take WoWEcon for instance |
| 22:54.35 | cog|work | Tekkub: apis aren't controllable like that |
| 22:54.40 | DWSR | absolutely they are. |
| 22:54.40 | Corrodias | i have misunderstood the terms of the argument. never mind. |
| 22:54.43 | Dagmar | They're definitely pimping the idea that if you dont' buy their thing, you'll miss out on in game money |
| 22:54.44 | cog|work | umm. no |
| 22:54.48 | Beladona | lets be honest here. Without wow, our addons don't do a whole lot. By their very nature, they are a part of wow when actually used, and designed to be that way. For that reason, addons were never REALLY completely and totally the intellectual property of the author. The parts that ARE our intellectual property, hasn't been affected by this. Only how we sought to distribute them, and derive compensation for it. |
| 22:54.50 | cog|work | otherwise MS would be able to sue wine into the ground |
| 22:55.05 | PProvost | Beladona: that is crap |
| 22:55.08 | Corrodias | side A): blizzard can do what they want. side B): i don't like what blizzard does. these two viewpoints are not incompatible, guys. |
| 22:55.10 | PProvost | Wow is the OS for addons |
| 22:55.18 | PProvost | You could argue the same for Windows or OSX |
| 22:55.19 | Tekkub | uhm, Wine emulates their API, it doesn't use it directly |
| 22:55.19 | ZorbaGama | I don't think the intellectual-property argument matters |
| 22:55.25 | DWSR | Corrodias: Yes they are. |
| 22:55.26 | Dagmar | They seem compatible enough to me |
| 22:55.31 | DWSR | Corrodias: This is the internet. |
| 22:55.35 | End | My addons are meant to be used with WoWBench! |
| 22:55.37 | ZorbaGama | I think it's pretty clear that our addons are owned solely by us. however, it's also pretty clear that blizzard can do whatever they want on their servers |
| 22:55.38 | cog|work | Tekkub: how is that relevant? |
| 22:55.39 | Beladona | PProvost: please refrain from attacking anyone for their opinion |
| 22:55.46 | ZorbaGama | I mean, the whole "legal action" thing might be a fakeout |
| 22:55.55 | DWSR | Probably is. |
| 22:55.59 | DWSR | Costs way too much |
| 22:56.00 | Tekkub | cog|work, because you're not running a wow API emulater and being bound to those terms |
| 22:56.04 | Tekkub | we did this an hour ago |
| 22:56.06 | DWSR | They'd just disable the API that the addon uses to work. |
| 22:56.07 | Corrodias | blizzard's terms have no effect on addons developed before the new rules were in place, of course |
| 22:56.10 | PProvost | Beladona - I said the opinion was crap. Not you. |
| 22:56.10 | ZorbaGama | but it doesn't matter - they can ban for whatever they like, if they decide Bob's Raid Frames isn't allowed on the official servers, they can ban for it |
| 22:56.18 | PProvost | Apologies for using the C word. :) |
| 22:56.20 | Lopeppeppy | Several times. We're going to have this circle conversation a lot of times this weekend, I predict. |
| 22:56.20 | Dagmar | Corrodias: Fail |
| 22:56.22 | cog|work | Tekkub: how does that in anyway affect the author's copyright? |
| 22:56.29 | Dagmar | You're just dead wrong about that. |
| 22:56.29 | Tekkub | I never said it did |
| 22:56.31 | Corrodias | Dagmar: you can't change the past, even if you're blizzard |
| 22:56.33 | cog|work | and ability to dispose of their code in any way they see fit? |
| 22:56.37 | DWSR | Lopeppeppy: Yep. :D |
| 22:56.41 | DWSR | You've all been rick trolled |
| 22:56.46 | Dagmar | Corrodias: You are watching FAR too much Twilight Zone |
| 22:56.55 | Lopeppeppy | On monday, we'll see who is left. |
| 22:57.05 | Dagmar | If you would like to GO BACK IN TIME and run your addons and charge for them, go right ahead. |
| 22:57.11 | DWSR | lol |
| 22:57.17 | Dagmar | From this point in time onwards, their dev policy is now in effect. |
| 22:57.27 | DWSR | So does that mean that Carbonite is shut down or will it be allowed to continue? |
| 22:57.33 | Dagmar | When something was written does not matter in the least. |
| 22:57.37 | ZorbaGama | dwsr, can't continue with its current behavior, at least |
| 22:57.39 | Tekkub | addon author is within their rights to charge for their addon. Blizzy is within their rights to ban addons they don't like. THey say they don't like addons that are not free. |
| 22:57.42 | jnwhiteh | PProvost: I think there is a concern about them not defending their property.. I happen to feel that some portions of this step into areas that aren't covered by prior case law, but from their standpoint this is the correct action for them to take if they want to protect some property of theirs. |
| 22:57.43 | DWSR | ZorbaGama: Awesome |
| 22:57.46 | Corrodias | mmm, there i go poking the fire again. i should become a troll. i've got the knack. |
| 22:57.52 | Anaralx2 | wait, how will they implement this before 3.1... that has the bannedaddons.dbc |
| 22:57.53 | Tekkub | where is there legal grey area here? |
| 22:58.05 | PProvost | jnwhiteh: you mean blizz? I understand that. |
| 22:58.10 | jnwhiteh | *nod* |
| 22:58.13 | jnwhiteh | That strays into #5 as well with providing consistent guidelines about what can and cannot appear in game. |
| 22:58.14 | Beladona | I believe the policy was about protecting Blizzard's intellectual property, and user's right to equal and fair play. Authors are affected most because while we are a user, we are also unique in taht we provide enhancements to other users |
| 22:58.30 | Beladona | thats my personal opinion on it anyway |
| 22:58.31 | PProvost | There is a bit of fear here. Especially as other people started looking at the addons sector as a profit center. |
| 22:58.38 | DWSR | Beladona: Well your opinion sucks! :P |
| 22:58.46 | Beladona | to me, it doesn't |
| 22:58.49 | Lopeppeppy | DWSR, be nice. |
| 22:58.51 | Beladona | and that is all that matters to me |
| 22:58.52 | DWSR | Beladona: I'm entirely kidding |
| 22:58.53 | Lopeppeppy | Disagree, but be nice. |
| 22:58.55 | PProvost | But it is interesting to take the "must be free" approach. There are other ways to protect possibly. |
| 22:58.59 | DWSR | I happen to agree with her |
| 22:59.10 | Beladona | im a him, but thanks =P |
| 22:59.15 | Tekkub | cog|work, Apple doesn't allow people to write apps that act as a browser, how is that different? |
| 22:59.15 | Corrodias | one side is opinions and the other side is facts. no resolution can come from a debate against opinion, or a persuasion against fact. |
| 22:59.17 | Dagmar | PProvost: The problem you're probably overlooking is RMT |
| 22:59.18 | krka | Tekkub: wine is not an emulator, wine implements the windows api |
| 22:59.18 | Slakah | I feel it's fair that blizzard can enforce any ideal it wants in WoW. |
| 22:59.19 | DWSR | With a nick like Beladona? Okl. |
| 22:59.19 | Tekkub | *for iPhone |
| 22:59.23 | durcyn | economic transactions for addons introduces whole new levels of liability |
| 22:59.27 | PProvost | As a large software corp, they actually should be just as afraid of people taking code out of the Blizz SDK sample, and including them in GPL addons. |
| 22:59.30 | Beladona | my original char was female. The nick stuck |
| 22:59.36 | Beladona | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:59.36 | DWSR | aha |
| 22:59.38 | Dagmar | The moment "real money" gets involved, people's behaviours change. |
| 22:59.40 | DWSR | this makes sense |
| 22:59.40 | PProvost | Dagmar: RMT? |
| 22:59.42 | Corrodias | Slakah: i don't think anybody is suggesting otherwise |
| 22:59.48 | Dagmar | Real Money Transactions. |
| 22:59.53 | Beladona | if it helps, my current char is named Beladon |
| 22:59.55 | Dagmar | I'm not talking about specifically goldfarming |
| 22:59.58 | DWSR | At the end of the day, there's an easy way around this |
| 23:00.20 | Lopeppeppy | Yes. Bliz could close the API and we all play vanilla. |
| 23:00.23 | amro | DWSR: ...do you know you said that 2 seconds before [Day changed to Saturday March 21 2009] |
| 23:00.49 | Rabbitbunny | then the end may be soon.Dagthen what are you? |
| 23:01.03 | PProvost | This is an interesting step though. Wowi, curse and other for-profit companies make a living off the addon sector. But the actual addons themselves are now disallowed from participating. |
| 23:01.07 | Rabbitbunny | You know, the best addon I've ever gotten I had to pay for. |
| 23:01.09 | DWSR | amro: Nice. |
| 23:01.12 | PProvost | Like it or not, they build an extensibility platform. |
| 23:01.16 | PProvost | People will extend |
| 23:01.23 | PProvost | And people will be willing to pay for extensions. |
| 23:01.24 | Corrodias | your mom extends |
| 23:01.24 | Lopeppeppy | PProvost, they are not. Addons may solicit donations on their own websites. Just not in game. |
| 23:01.27 | Dagmar | PProvost: Do you specialize in unsupportable arguments or what? |
| 23:01.29 | jnwhiteh | How are we disallowed from participating? |
| 23:01.38 | jnwhiteh | We can make our own hosting sites, and I continue to make revenue off my donations |
| 23:01.46 | Dagmar | Neither Wowi, nor Curse, restrict users who haven't paid them money from using their sites. |
| 23:01.50 | PProvost | Now who's attacking a person instead of an argument? |
| 23:01.53 | Rabbitbunny | also, durcyn i wrong. 'for-cash' addons in no way change Blizzard's liability. |
| 23:02.07 | PProvost | Cairenn: Dagmar is being mean to me! |
| 23:02.12 | Dagmar | I'm commenting on your ability to come up with multiple argumentation fallacies in a row |
| 23:02.15 | PProvost | :D |
| 23:02.22 | PProvost | lol |
| 23:02.26 | DWSR | Lopeppeppy: But you could argue that people who host on Curse/WoWI exclusively cannot afford hosting |
| 23:02.38 | DWSR | And there's a whole other rigamoroll. |
| 23:02.45 | *** join/#wowuidev Antiarc (n=Antiarc@wsip-70-167-195-98.ph.ph.cox.net) |
| 23:02.53 | PProvost | A fallacy is an argument that fails because of its structure. Are you sure that is what you meant? |
| 23:02.55 | End | technically some of my personal badly written AddOns fall foul of these rules |
| 23:02.56 | Dagmar | Curse/WoWi might be making money off ad banner revenue, but they're still free |
| 23:02.58 | End | since I don't release them :P |
| 23:02.59 | jnwhiteh | people should keep it civil, this discussion has the possibility to become very heated =/ |
| 23:03.20 | zenzelezz | I'd say it already is; certainly close enough |
| 23:03.24 | Tekkub | possibility? |
| 23:03.29 | *** join/#wowuidev Matrix110 (i=Matrix11@pD957B0D6.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 23:03.32 | Tekkub | yea we're well on the way |
| 23:03.34 | Dagmar | No, a fallacy is an argument that is not logically sound |
| 23:03.42 | Rabbitbunny | is there a link to this? a comment from Blizzard? |
| 23:03.47 | Lopeppeppy | If you guys want to trash each other out, there's always private PMs, ya know. |
| 23:03.53 | Lopeppeppy | Rabbitbunny, check the topic for links. |
| 23:03.54 | DWSR | lol |
| 23:03.55 | End | http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/policy/ui.html |
| 23:03.58 | Cairenn | Rabbitbunny: channel topic |
| 23:04.00 | DWSR | Lopeppeppy: No, keep it in channel. |
| 23:04.01 | mikma | I kill you |
| 23:04.03 | DWSR | More fun that way. |
| 23:04.07 | Corrodias | smirk. you'll have people who just saw a possible source of revenue on a product they've spent hard hours developing be destroyed vs people who like free things |
| 23:04.09 | Lopeppeppy | DWSR, that's not constructive. |
| 23:04.11 | Corrodias | of course it'll be heated |
| 23:04.13 | amro | ah, private messsages, of course. |
| 23:04.13 | Cairenn | actually, everyone ... channel topic .... keep it civil |
| 23:04.16 | DWSR | Lopeppeppy: No, but you might as well enjoy it. |
| 23:04.23 | Lopeppeppy | [19:04] Cairenn: actually, everyone ... channel topic .... keep it civil |
| 23:04.35 | Arrowmaster | Corrodias: i hope you arent trying to defend those behind carbonite |
| 23:04.35 | Dagmar | Gosh. Sometimes projects don't turn out to be profitable. |
| 23:04.39 | Legorol | DWSR: may i please ask you that on this one occasion, stop being a troll and an inciter? This topic is heated enough already without oil being poured on the fire. |
| 23:04.42 | PProvost | Funny thing is that I've always released under two very free licenses: zlib/libpng and Apache2. So I'm not affected in the slightest. But as a member of the software development (for profit) community, I'm intrigued by #1. I don't think I actually ever makde an argument for or against ot. |
| 23:04.45 | ScytheBlade1 | Cairenn: reach for the shotgun :) |
| 23:04.49 | Anaralx2 | End: That;s an interesting point. I wonder how many personal addons will be banned... |
| 23:04.56 | End | how can they? |
| 23:04.57 | Cairenn | I'll just reach for the /mode +m |
| 23:05.00 | Corrodias | i'm not actually very interested in either side, arrow |
| 23:05.00 | DWSR | Legorol: I'll stop, but I don't think the fire needs my help anymore. |
| 23:05.01 | Cairenn | if necessary |
| 23:05.07 | End | what I'm talking about isn't enforcable |
| 23:05.22 | End | and if I'm -in the process- of developing new features, it's not public |
| 23:05.26 | End | until I commit to svn |
| 23:05.32 | DWSR | Even then |
| 23:05.38 | DWSR | oh right |
| 23:05.39 | End | but if there's legelese, it probably is more specific |
| 23:05.48 | mikma | cairenn: i dare you! muhahaha |
| 23:05.55 | Arrowmaster | Corrodias: ok because in the eyes of some of us, they are the ones entirely responsible for this |
| 23:06.04 | Rabbitbunny | pfft, they can suck it on everything but 8, and they don't even fully support addon authors (as evidensed by WoWWiki). |
| 23:06.08 | Anaralx2 | End: In the ptr mpq and wtf folders there are files for bannedaddons |
| 23:06.14 | Corrodias | i really don't know what Carbonite is, other than some addon people paid for |
| 23:06.27 | Dagmar | Well, it's got a really cool map |
| 23:06.28 | Corrodias | which is hardly a new thing, so it must not be the only thing |
| 23:06.45 | Anaralx2 | My guess is that they'll have more ways than just tattle-tails/bug reports to track addons |
| 23:06.48 | Legorol | Corrodias: it has in-game ad popups |
| 23:06.48 | Dagmar | It's touted as a be-all do-all spoiler tool to boot |
| 23:06.48 | jnwhiteh | Rabbitbunny: huh? How does wowwiki factor into this at all? |
| 23:06.53 | Lopeppeppy | It's slicky and sassy, Corrodias. |
| 23:06.55 | Beladona | its probably more the polish and how well things work |
| 23:06.56 | Lopeppeppy | *gentle shrug* |
| 23:06.56 | ZorbaGama | arrow, they've been working on this for a few months - I've been talking with an Blizz employee about an upcoming UI development guide for a while |
| 23:07.02 | Legorol | and it was heading in a direction that it'd advertise out-of-game stuff in those popups in-game |
| 23:07.05 | jnwhiteh | You cannot honestly belive that Blizzard does not support addon authors.. that would be an absurd statement. |
| 23:07.06 | Corrodias | so... i don't know, were people being forced to use Carbonite by somebody? >_> |
| 23:07.07 | ZorbaGama | I don't know if the Carbonite thing changed it, though I think it's clear it hurried it along |
| 23:07.10 | jnwhiteh | They clearly and obviously do. |
| 23:07.12 | Beladona | sometimes that is all it takes for one addon to be much more popular than another with similar features |
| 23:07.13 | Lopeppeppy | ~comfort ScytheBlade1. |
| 23:07.13 | purl | There, there, ScytheBlade1.. It's OK. I'm here for you. |
| 23:07.14 | *** join/#wowuidev ilovemrdoe (n=chatzill@88-104-81-173.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) |
| 23:07.19 | Rabbitbunny | jnwhiteh: if they actually supported addon authors, I might care. But since they don't, I dont. |
| 23:07.24 | jnwhiteh | They do. |
| 23:07.26 | jnwhiteh | YOu're wrong, I'm sorry. |
| 23:07.27 | Dagmar | ...but Carbonite pretty much takes the high fantasy thing and chucks it, which is another something Blizzard might not be caring for |
| 23:07.31 | Corrodias | i'm having a hard time finding fault with a company producing something nobody had to use |
| 23:07.53 | Rabbitbunny | jnwhiteh: Really, Where does Blizzard tell you how to use DeleteCursorItem()? |
| 23:08.02 | jnwhiteh | They don't. |
| 23:08.02 | Arrowmaster | ZorbaGama: yeah, and im sure it could have been a lot more lax if it wasnt hurried along because of carbonite |
| 23:08.02 | jnwhiteh | that's not support |
| 23:08.02 | jnwhiteh | that's documentation |
| 23:08.02 | jnwhiteh | and we don't need it |
| 23:08.02 | End | Anaralx2: they can't really stop me from using my personal addons without either doing a whitelist instead of blacklist, or looking and going "oh, there's one personal in the world with this addon" |
| 23:08.02 | jnwhiteh | clearly |
| 23:08.10 | jnwhiteh | considering most of the documentation was built before the game was even out of beta. |
| 23:08.11 | Beladona | they have an entire forum devoted to addon authors and users |
| 23:08.12 | jnwhiteh | Care to try again? |
| 23:08.16 | Dagmar | Corrodias: You didn't really notice all those banner ads advertising private, for-pay gaming guides did you |
| 23:08.16 | Beladona | and post in it |
| 23:08.18 | End | (via pulling addon lists) |
| 23:08.20 | jnwhiteh | They tell us exactly what happens when they add an API |
| 23:08.21 | jnwhiteh | and how to use it |
| 23:08.22 | Legorol | Rabbitbunny: i'll give you one example of how they support addon authors: secure templates (ok that's two). without that, many addons would just die, and the default UI doesn't need them. |
| 23:08.23 | Beladona | how can someone say Blizzard doens't support authors? |
| 23:08.26 | Dagmar | So let's look at those for a moment |
| 23:08.29 | Shadowed | Lets not forgot the whole SendAddonMessage functions that Blizzard added for addon developers |
| 23:08.30 | Rabbitbunny | I disagree with you. You're wrong. |
| 23:08.34 | ZorbaGama | arrow, I've actually sent him an email pointing out the repercussions. I suppose there's a small chance they change it |
| 23:08.35 | Corrodias | Dagmar: i haven't played in at least half a year |
| 23:08.45 | cog|work | 16:08 < Rabbitbunny> I disagree with you. You're wrong. |
| 23:08.46 | jnwhiteh | *shrug* |
| 23:08.46 | Corrodias | i'm still not sure what ads have to do with it |
| 23:08.48 | cog|work | non sequitur |
| 23:08.51 | cog|work | :P |
| 23:08.53 | jnwhiteh | You are welcome to your opinion |
| 23:08.57 | mikma | yeah blizzard sucks, they don't even listen to us! |
| 23:08.58 | NightHawkTheSane | Shadowed: lets not forget (insert one of many apis) that blizzard aded for addon developers. :P |
| 23:09.05 | jnwhiteh | Looking outside this policy |
| 23:09.08 | Shadowed | yea, that was an easy example thought :p |
| 23:09.08 | Dagmar | How many of the people who made those server- and realm-firsts were doing it because they're a fan of the game versus how many people were doing it to be able to pimp their leveling guide for money later |
| 23:09.13 | Dagmar | Think about that for a moment. |
| 23:09.15 | jnwhiteh | they have shown that they support us since the game was released |
| 23:09.17 | jnwhiteh | *shrug* |
| 23:09.18 | mikma | zootfizzle ans slouken don't care!!11 |
| 23:09.20 | jnwhiteh | in my opinion :P |
| 23:09.27 | PProvost | jnwhiteh: +1 |
| 23:09.33 | Beladona | its never good enough |
| 23:09.39 | Corrodias | Dagmar: what? are you asking me to care about why people play the game? |
| 23:09.40 | NightHawkTheSane | Zootfizzle: you hear that, you don't support us! /cry |
| 23:09.40 | PProvost | It never is |
| 23:10.00 | Beladona | I have never known a game company that could garner 100% user appreciation |
| 23:10.03 | NeoTron | mikma: slouken doesn't care anymore since he's working on The Sekrit MMO Project now |
| 23:10.05 | Beladona | for a game |
| 23:10.15 | jnwhiteh | Rabbitbunny: And to answer your question (http://wowprogramming.com/docs/api/DeleteCursorItem). If you think Blizzard had no involvement in our documentation effort, you're wrong =) |
| 23:10.16 | mikma | neotron: sexrit |
| 23:10.19 | Dagmar | Corrodias: No, I'm showing you where them banning for-pay addons, because things like Zygor's guide definitely are, simply entice "professionals" to involve themselves in what would otherwise be a low-stress game |
| 23:10.22 | Beladona | imho, Blizzard does it better than any other developer I have interacted with |
| 23:10.32 | cog|work | ^ |
| 23:10.34 | Beladona | they interact on a level much greater |
| 23:10.40 | cog|work | until now im[^h]o |
| 23:10.42 | Dagmar | or rather that forbidding that prevents them from dominating the field |
| 23:10.48 | Corrodias | Dagmar: i fail to see how somebody else trying to beat bosses in WoW adds to my stress (if i were playing, of course) |
| 23:10.54 | NightHawkTheSane | that they interact at all is pretty much light years ahead of most companies. |
| 23:11.16 | Dagmar | Corrodias: Guys doing it for a buck can and will do things to achieve that first that mere fans aren't going to bother with |
| 23:11.23 | Beladona | the thing is, i don't think anything has changed. Their opinion has likely always been that they didn't like for-pay addons. They simply refrained from commenting until now. And here we are getting mad at them for being open |
| 23:11.24 | mikma | neotron: has the all mighty slouken abandoned us? zomg |
| 23:11.38 | zenzelezz | for some reason all this argument reminds me of when XFree86 changed their licence slightly and the community went into uproar |
| 23:11.41 | Corrodias | Dagmar: so they're beat by people who are willing to work harder to achieve more? that seems fair enough. |
| 23:11.42 | NeoTron | mikma: so he said |
| 23:11.44 | Beladona | when being open is probably what makes Blizzard more unique |
| 23:11.53 | NeoTron | last I bugged him about some wow ui thing |
| 23:11.56 | cog|work | zenzelezz: banning for-pay addons isn't a slight change... |
| 23:11.59 | PProvost | zenzelezz: This always happens when OSS and real money come together |
| 23:12.06 | End | Beladona: yeah, I'm pretty sure they hated non-free addons since they first appeared |
| 23:12.13 | NeoTron | told me to post it in zoot's ui thread or whatever :P |
| 23:12.13 | cog|work | PProvost: + *perceived* |
| 23:12.22 | zenzelezz | cog|work: depends how you see it. To me it's small enough |
| 23:12.29 | Corrodias | Dagmar: i fail to see how reducing the competition for "firsts" is worthy of such measures |
| 23:12.29 | PProvost | cog|work: fair 'nuff |
| 23:12.32 | Dagmar | Corrodias: ...which heads straight for "players doing self-destructive levels of play" and doesn't slow for weather |
| 23:12.35 | cog|work | addons aren't open source by default... everyone seems to think they are just because they're distributed as source |
| 23:12.45 | PProvost | cog|work: correct |
| 23:12.56 | Beladona | wow isn't open source |
| 23:12.59 | Corrodias | Dagmar: Blizzard is the baby-sitter now? :) must they protect us from ourselves? we're not in China. |
| 23:13.02 | Beladona | addons extend wow |
| 23:13.07 | Dagmar | No, but China comes over anyway |
| 23:13.13 | Dagmar | Ignore it at the peril of your in-game economy |
| 23:13.20 | zenzelezz | let's not bring back "THIS IS CHINA" |
| 23:13.23 | Corrodias | you've drifted off-topic |
| 23:13.27 | Dagmar | No, I've not. |
| 23:13.31 | Dagmar | It's the same problem there. |
| 23:13.32 | Corrodias | or you haven't made the connection |
| 23:13.36 | cog|work | zenzelezz: right. like most people who it doesn't affect directly, you're comfortable to marginalize the minority |
| 23:13.39 | ckknight | cog|work: props. |
| 23:13.44 | cog|work | (not personal, just an observation) |
| 23:13.47 | Dagmar | Theres' stuff in the game they designed with the intention that players will be trading with other players to get materials. |
| 23:13.48 | Beladona | thats it Corrodias, I am making a lead toy addon. You have inspired me |
| 23:13.55 | zenzelezz | cog|work: I'm always comfortable marginalizing the minority |
| 23:13.58 | Dagmar | They put in the auction house to facilitate that |
| 23:14.03 | Corrodias | i don't know what a lead toy is |
| 23:14.14 | *** join/#wowuidev Funkeh` (n=funk@WoWUIDev/WoWAce/Ace3/BigWigs/funkeh) |
| 23:14.19 | Beladona | re: China |
| 23:14.22 | Dagmar | Let a bunch of chinese goldfarmers invade that unrestricted and they'll wipe out the ability of "normal" players to transact any sort of brokered goods transaction |
| 23:15.07 | Corrodias | so they squish a few people to increase the overall fun of the game, okay. but that's a different matter from an addon with advertisements in it. |
| 23:15.46 | End | besides a donation link, are there any addons that actually have advertisements in them? |
| 23:15.48 | Corrodias | in the first, they affect anyone wanting to use the system regardless of their interest in the "chinese product". in the latter, you don't have to use the addon. |
| 23:15.49 | Dagmar | What's that got to do with it |
| 23:16.05 | Beladona | peopel are mad because it limits their choices. When in truth the very act of letting it stop you from developing in and of itself is a choice |
| 23:16.11 | Corrodias | we did not close the issue of Carbonite. i thought you were going to tell me what was bad about it. |
| 23:16.19 | Beladona | it has only traded one choice for another |
| 23:16.37 | Dagmar | It spams the chat network, and it's immersion-breaking as hell |
| 23:16.40 | Corrodias | a far less attractive one, perhaps, Beladona |
| 23:16.49 | Beladona | if charging for your addon was the only choice, then stopping development is the replacement |
| 23:16.53 | PProvost | End: apparently Carbonite does |
| 23:17.00 | End | the free version? |
| 23:17.05 | PProvost | yeah |
| 23:17.08 | PProvost | So they say. I don't use it |
| 23:17.13 | End | I don't either |
| 23:17.16 | End | so I had no idea :P |
| 23:17.17 | Dagmar | It's also the next best thing to letting your teenage kid be stalked |
| 23:17.17 | Beladona | anyway, be back soon. Gotta go home |
| 23:17.21 | Corrodias | spam is a violation of the rules. if Carbonite did spamming, its users should be banned. why did nobody mention this point before? |
| 23:17.29 | Lopeppeppy | Corrodias, they have. |
| 23:17.43 | Dagmar | Corrodias: Because you've ignored the context in which I used the word "spam" |
| 23:17.55 | Dagmar | ...and it's come up a few times already |
| 23:17.57 | Corrodias | "it spams the chat network" |
| 23:18.11 | Dagmar | Heck, I've been sending phony messages to other people's Carbonite client just for a giggle |
| 23:18.17 | Corrodias | my apologies, i must have missed it. i was only paying attention to what Dagmar was saying in this busy place. |
| 23:18.35 | Dagmar | I covered that earlier |
| 23:18.48 | Dagmar | But let's say you're in Dalaran with it |
| 23:18.58 | Dagmar | ...and there's twenty other people in Dalaran with it |
| 23:19.13 | Corrodias | people were talking about charging for addons and putting advertisements in them. i thought -those- were the reasons people wanted Carbonite to be outlawed. |
| 23:19.27 | Corrodias | a basic misunderstanding. i'll just concede now. |
| 23:19.36 | Dagmar | Suddenly they're all jibbering and wasting bandwidth for no particular purpose other than making sure a bunch of dots appear on the map if someone gets lost enough to need to look at it in Dalaran |
| 23:20.14 | *** join/#wowuidev norova (n=norova@c-98-215-162-117.hsd1.il.comcast.net) |
| 23:20.16 | Lopeppeppy | It's very easy to lose track of conversations that fly by so fast. it impresses me how much the Lounge gives each other the benefit of the doubt and has good debates. |
| 23:20.34 | *** join/#wowuidev Slakah (i=5ad5da43@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-4f01250d5de95443) |
| 23:20.38 | |Jelly| | So are people just randomly reporting posts for no reason? |
| 23:20.51 | |Jelly| | http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15864747207&sid=1&pageNo=4#64 for instance |
| 23:21.41 | Dagmar | Looks like it |
| 23:21.42 | Corrodias | well, i know not all reports are reports for bad things. i think people used to make sticky requests via report, didn't they? |
| 23:21.49 | Corrodias | i never quite figured out how that works. |
| 23:21.52 | Dagmar | Clearly someone reported the original post of the change to the policy |
| 23:22.01 | Dagmar | Cairenn's in trouble now |
| 23:22.18 | Cairenn | hmmm? |
| 23:22.46 | Dagmar | Meh. Just snarking. It's probably greyed because of a sticky request |
| 23:22.54 | bleeter | bout bloody time blizz had something as explicit as that |
| 23:22.54 | amro | |Jelly|: their mistake was in making the report icon a cool biohazard sign. everybody wants to click |
| 23:22.57 | bleeter | gg blizz onya |
| 23:22.59 | |Jelly| | Oh man. Time to gather the armies. No one threatens our Cairenn! Next thing you know, they're going to be after our favorite dinosaur and then it's freaking over. |
| 23:23.07 | Lopeppeppy | Mrph? |
| 23:23.15 | Cairenn | someone reported me? rofl |
| 23:23.20 | krka | velociraptors? |
| 23:23.27 | Xinhuan | probably reported for a sticky Cairenn |
| 23:23.29 | Lopeppeppy | I did that. *nod* |
| 23:23.31 | Xinhuan | since its an important change |
| 23:23.36 | Cairenn | that is fine then |
| 23:23.44 | |Jelly| | (I'm trying [failing] to be funny; sorry <3) |
| 23:23.46 | Cairenn | thought it was actually "reported", ya know? |
| 23:23.49 | Corrodias | such a bad connotation that word has, report. REPORTED! what a terrible post! let's sticky it. |
| 23:23.56 | Dagmar | Give it time. Someone's going to do it |
| 23:23.59 | |Jelly| | Well, the link that I linked was reported too. Not sure why. |
| 23:24.00 | Lopeppeppy | Jelly dear, I'm waiting to hear about favorite dinosaurs. If you love alestane more than me, I'll bite you. |
| 23:24.43 | Cairenn | |Jelly|: heh, no worries sweetie, I'm just having a hard time keeping up with all the different things, so I may miss some references is all :) |
| 23:24.46 | Dagmar | Once the trolls figure out that they can bog down the forum mods with mass reportings... |
| 23:25.01 | Arrowmaster | |Jelly|: its probably because the guy hes quoting already edited his post to make himself not look like an ass that doesnt read the entire thread before posting, and that guy doesnt want the post there showing what he originally said |
| 23:25.21 | Dagmar | Someone probably decided they were going to claim "straw man" was racist because they didn't like what Thistlehurtu said |
| 23:25.57 | bleeter | wonder if the timing of this new policy has anything to do with the microsoft ingame adverts |
| 23:26.16 | bleeter | ie, microsoft was gunna be pissed ppl would tread on their $$'s |
| 23:26.23 | |Jelly| | Peppy, you know you'll always be my favorite dinosaur! |
| 23:26.36 | NeoTron | I actually had a discussion with RMS about "plugins" or "addons" into GPL'd software that are not, directly, linkign |
| 23:26.52 | NeoTron | i.e in that case addons to a webserver written in an interpreted language |
| 23:26.54 | Dagmar | bleeter: Microsoft's in-game ads are anything but new ground |
| 23:27.00 | |Jelly| | Arrowmaster: Yeah, you're probably right. |
| 23:27.17 | Cairenn | ummm, cog|work? |
| 23:27.19 | bleeter | Dagmar: I didn't see it in any agreements until this week |
| 23:27.20 | NeoTron | the end result is that yes, GPL covers that |
| 23:27.24 | Dagmar | Anarchy Online was selling billboard space ages ago |
| 23:27.32 | *** join/#wowuidev Pneumatus (n=WiN@unaffiliated/pneumatus) |
| 23:27.36 | Cairenn | why did you link the wowi post instead of the blizz post? |
| 23:27.39 | Arrowmaster | i dont think blizz is going to do any ingame ads in wow |
| 23:27.46 | Arrowmaster | but i could deffently see it in sc2 |
| 23:27.56 | Arrowmaster | and i honestly dont think it would look that outa place in sc2 |
| 23:28.19 | NeoTron | cog|work: so your argument that an addon wouldn't be affected in it the same way as an app is affected by a GPL library isnt' necessarily true |
| 23:28.44 | cog|work | Cairenn: sorry... i didn't see the wow forum one at the time |
| 23:28.45 | foxlit | Meh, I thought GPL only requires you to do things if you modify GPL code and redistribute it. |
| 23:28.48 | foxlit | But that's just me. |
| 23:28.48 | Dagmar | Yeah the only reason Anarchy Online could do it without blowing the illusory environment to pieces was that there's generally ads all over the place IRL, so a post-apocalyptic IRL isn't likely to be without them |
| 23:28.54 | Cairenn | no worries |
| 23:29.08 | NeoTron | foxlit: GPL requires source using it to be GPL |
| 23:29.11 | NeoTron | LGPL doesn't |
| 23:29.20 | NeoTron | that's the only difference between GPL and LGPL |
| 23:29.21 | Cairenn | cog|work: was just wondering |
| 23:29.25 | Slakah | if ads were to become common in games I would hope that they would stick to the theme |
| 23:29.33 | krka | Arrowmaster: there is already a dancing seminaked nightelf in one of the SC2 videos |
| 23:29.38 | cog|work | fixed :) |
| 23:29.39 | krka | as a hologram or something |
| 23:29.45 | Arrowmaster | krka: hot |
| 23:29.48 | Dagmar | Slakah: Not all that much money in Renaissance Faire ads |
| 23:30.08 | Lopeppeppy | Now. I adore you all, but the debate has raised my temperature, literally. Peppy has the flu, you kow. |
| 23:30.09 | Slakah | nah but you could stylise it |
| 23:30.10 | Lopeppeppy | *know |
| 23:30.10 | Arrowmaster | ingame ads work really well depending on the game setting |
| 23:30.27 | Lopeppeppy | So y'all follow the advice of Bill and Ted while I'm gone: "Be excellent to each other" |
| 23:30.30 | Dagmar | Slakah: Like the razors they're not marketing at gamers? |
| 23:30.38 | Arrowmaster | just think of all the different racing games with tons of ad spots that could be used well |
| 23:30.41 | DWSR | Is there any way to output the title someone is using with DogTags (e.g. 'Champion of the Frozen Wastes') or does that get included in [Name]? |
| 23:30.45 | Arrowmaster | and none of it would look outa place |
| 23:30.46 | ckknight | Dagmar: it's because a gamer's skin is not like normal human skin. |
| 23:30.57 | ckknight | DWSR: [Name:PvPName] |
| 23:31.03 | Dagmar | ckknight: Apparently all that lack of exposure to light and snack food makes it require special care |
| 23:31.06 | ckknight | I think |
| 23:31.09 | ckknight | it might be PvPTitle |
| 23:31.11 | Tekkub | huzzah, my mother friend the PVR box I made her |
| 23:31.13 | ckknight | Dagmar: quite |
| 23:31.19 | Tekkub | won't POST |
| 23:31.28 | Dagmar | I just know I found the commercial pretty insulting |
| 23:31.38 | Slakah | i.e. in fallout you could have on the radio "buy mountain due, it'll help keep you awake while under seige from those nasty raider". |
| 23:31.47 | Slakah | *dew |
| 23:31.52 | *** part/#wowuidev Lopeppeppy (n=Lopeppep@cpe-69-204-134-64.nycap.res.rr.com) |
| 23:31.52 | DWSR | ckknight: PvPRank |
| 23:31.57 | DWSR | but thanks. |
| 23:31.58 | ckknight | nope |
| 23:32.00 | Dagmar | Slakeh: Hows that any much different from the ads they run now? |
| 23:32.02 | Dagmar | Heh |
| 23:32.02 | ckknight | check /dog |
| 23:32.07 | DWSR | ckknight: I did. It's PvPRank |
| 23:32.12 | ckknight | okay |
| 23:32.22 | DWSR | bit misleading. Thanks. :) |
| 23:32.23 | Slakah | dunno I've never seen any ingame adds :p |
| 23:32.35 | Dagmar | You haven't seen ads in Fallot 2? |
| 23:32.39 | DWSR | I use greasemonkey and get rid of my in game ads. :P |
| 23:33.47 | Dagmar | Some of Mt. Dew's commercials are just a few spiked shoulderpads and a bit of leather away from being a perfect fit for it already |
| 23:38.50 | Dagmar | I find it amusing that they're all atwitter about Carbonite in that thread, but no one's even remembered Zygor's |
| 23:39.07 | jnwhiteh | what about it? |
| 23:39.17 | Dagmar | It's totally for pay |
| 23:39.20 | jnwhiteh | yes |
| 23:39.32 | jnwhiteh | and it will affect him |
| 23:39.39 | jnwhiteh | he'll have to release the guide data that he uses with TomTom |
| 23:39.49 | NeoTron | What is Zygor? |
| 23:39.56 | jaxdahl | what if he decides not to release it? then what |
| 23:39.57 | ckknight | Zygor's a guy |
| 23:39.58 | jnwhiteh | it doesn't advertise in-game |
| 23:40.00 | NeoTron | I mean what did he di |
| 23:40.02 | NeoTron | do |
| 23:40.04 | Dagmar | He'll just basiclaly have to stop |
| 23:40.07 | ckknight | he made an for-pay addon |
| 23:40.16 | jaxdahl | i mean what will blizzard do if he doesn't |
| 23:40.18 | NeoTron | another guide/quest addon? |
| 23:40.20 | *** join/#wowuidev Shirik (n=Shirik@conspiracy/developer/Shirik) |
| 23:40.20 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+o Shirik] by ChanServ |
| 23:40.28 | jnwhiteh | jaxdahl: same thing they'll do with carbonite |
| 23:40.29 | jnwhiteh | we'll see |
| 23:40.30 | mikma | leveling guide |
| 23:40.34 | Cairenn | cog|away: thank you |
| 23:40.35 | jaxdahl | what did they do with carbonite |
| 23:40.43 | Cairenn | I wasn't actually objecting, was just wondering why |
| 23:40.56 | Dagmar | This is the thing I used to see banner ads for touting as the method used by a particular player to break speed records for leveling |
| 23:41.07 | jnwhiteh | jaxdahl: nothing.. |
| 23:41.09 | jnwhiteh | yet. |
| 23:41.12 | NightHawkTheSane | jaxdahl: nothing yet, afaik, policy just went up today i believe. |
| 23:41.14 | jnwhiteh | this is the point |
| 23:41.53 | jaxdahl | what _could_ blizz do? sue? actually write something that bans particular addons? |
| 23:42.05 | jnwhiteh | READ THE POLICY |
| 23:42.08 | jnwhiteh | it says at the bottom |
| 23:42.17 | jnwhiteh | could be anything in betwen |
| 23:42.30 | NightHawkTheSane | jnwhiteh: at the top, as well |
| 23:42.33 | jnwhiteh | #8 says they can disable. |
| 23:42.40 | jnwhiteh | the top says what happens to addons that don't follow the policy |
| 23:43.10 | Dagmar | It's clear enough that the affected people shouldn't be suprised if one day their addon just mysteriously doens't get loaded by the client |
| 23:43.17 | NeoTron | someone noted hat 3.1 has a filed bannedaddons.xcf or similar that updates on login |
| 23:43.20 | jnwhiteh | or they get a C&D |
| 23:43.23 | NightHawkTheSane | or if they one day, soon, get a C&D |
| 23:43.26 | NightHawkTheSane | jnwhiteh: .. dammit. |
| 23:43.31 | jnwhiteh | baddons.wtf |
| 23:43.31 | jnwhiteh | yep |
| 23:43.38 | jnwhiteh | who knows =) |
| 23:43.42 | Wobin | ... baddons? =P |
| 23:43.44 | Wobin | terrible |
| 23:44.00 | Dagmar | I'd say it depends on which team, legal or technical, has the largest pile of paperwork to fill out before formally banning one |
| 23:44.12 | Shirik | Totally off-topic |
| 23:44.14 | Shirik | http://windowshelp.microsoft.com/Windows/en-US/Help/769495bf-035c-4764-a538-c9b05c22001e1033.mspx |
| 23:44.18 | Nechckn_AFK | "baddons" you need to tm that one |
| 23:44.19 | mikma | hmm |
| 23:44.22 | Shirik | I love how Microsoft's solution is "make a new one" not "fix it" |
| 23:44.41 | jnwhiteh | no. |
| 23:44.46 | Dagmar | Oh that's the same as their fix for corrupted Exchange spools too |
| 23:44.47 | jnwhiteh | Nechckn_AFK: Wobin: That was the original name fo the file |
| 23:44.49 | jnwhiteh | I didn't make that up. |
| 23:44.50 | Dagmar | s/spools/stores/ |
| 23:44.57 | mikma | sounds like that bannedaddons.xcf will be updated with blizz updater |
| 23:45.22 | Rabbitbunny | heh, They can't use C&D. Their only recourse is #8, or turning off the API. 1 is unenforcable. |
| 23:45.23 | Dagmar | That was the most hilarious solution ever when I worked at a place that rolled out a 50,000 user Exchange environment, and it failed on the second day |
| 23:45.53 | bleeter | 1 is unenforcable. << bollocks, someone has some intellectual property to protect |
| 23:46.28 | Rabbitbunny | bleeter: Yeah, Mine. And and can sell it anytime I want. Note Brian Kopp. |
| 23:46.31 | ZorbaGama | 1 is enforcable, but only through the fact that they can just turn off UI mods whenever they want |
| 23:46.44 | ZorbaGama | I highly doubt they could sue people for selling plugins |
| 23:46.50 | Rabbitbunny | ZorbaGama: Yes, exactly. |
| 23:46.53 | |Jelly| | I wonder how much of their player base would go away if they closed the API. |
| 23:47.00 | ZorbaGama | well, I mean, they could sue them, but I suspect they'd lose :P (of course, who really knows) |
| 23:47.01 | bleeter | lots |
| 23:47.06 | jnwhiteh | I forgot, everyone here is a lawyer. |
| 23:47.16 | ZorbaGama | jelly, a good chunk. I've had many people say that they wouldn't be playing if QH didn't work. |
| 23:47.24 | |Jelly| | I WANT THE TRUTH. <-- about as close as "being a lawyer" ad I get |
| 23:47.55 | Rabbitbunny | Seriously, go read the court case against Brian Kopp, they know they can't win in court. |
| 23:47.57 | Dagmar | Kopp's got so much outright bullsh*t on his site it's just sad |
| 23:48.00 | |Jelly| | Well, I'm that was about Pitbull (No offense, Zorba <3) so I'm in the same boat. I'm just wondering how bad (or good?) a business decision closing the API would be. |
| 23:48.02 | Shirik | Hi guys. Let me just say one thing. |
| 23:48.12 | Shirik | I'm fairly certain Blizzard's layers have just a LITTLE more experience than you guys. |
| 23:48.22 | Shirik | Think about that before you say "they can't do that" |
| 23:48.31 | Wobin | "They can't do that!" |
| 23:48.32 | Slakah | ZorbaGamme, and whats "many people"? |
| 23:48.37 | Wobin | "I can't believe it's not butter!" |
| 23:48.41 | |Jelly| | To add to Shirik, all I have to say is ... The twinkies made me do it. |
| 23:48.42 | Shirik | If you want to fight them, go ahead; I'm not gonna be on your side. |
| 23:48.50 | ZorbaGama | jelly, I think it's quite a bad decision, unless they had real legal issues staring them in the face |
| 23:48.51 | Rabbitbunny | Sure, they can try, and crush you with legal costs. But they won't win. |
| 23:48.54 | Esamynn | ~lart |Jelly| |
| 23:48.54 | purl | dumps 42 tons of dirt, manure, and fish heads on |Jelly| |
| 23:48.55 | jaxdahl | what if the EFF is on my side |
| 23:48.56 | ZorbaGama | which I don't think they did, or at least, none that I know of |
| 23:49.13 | NightHawkTheSane | Shirik: some days, i want to go to law school just so i can say to people like you "nuh uh!", then i come back to reality.. :P |
| 23:49.15 | |Jelly| | Esamynn: <3 |
| 23:49.20 | jaxdahl | red rover red rover come on over shirik |
| 23:49.22 | bleeter | I still blame Microsoftr |
| 23:49.23 | bleeter | -r |
| 23:49.32 | Nechckn_AFK | Haven't seen anything from the EFF, jaxdahl - is there some comment? |
| 23:49.36 | jaxdahl | no |
| 23:49.41 | ZorbaGama | slakah, a significant number of the people who left comments. It wouldn't surprise me if QH vanishing would lead to high-five-figure or low-six-figure cancellations. (It isn't vanishing, but) |
| 23:49.42 | Rabbitbunny | Just wait til it's on /. and NeyYorkCountryLawyer will say the same thing I have. |
| 23:49.42 | jaxdahl | just throwing that out there |
| 23:50.08 | bleeter | ZorbaGama: so you're not giving up? |
| 23:50.13 | Nechckn_AFK | It's hard to say, because it's rather new territory what they'll do/not do. |
| 23:50.17 | jnwhiteh | Rabbitbunny: and no one knows anything until the case goes to court |
| 23:50.19 | NightHawkTheSane | ZorbaGama: even so.. seems statistically insignificant.. |
| 23:50.20 | jnwhiteh | this is how prescedent is set |
| 23:50.26 | ZorbaGama | bleeter, I'm not *giving up*, but I am certainly mothballing things soon |
| 23:50.29 | jnwhiteh | and this is how a company protects what they view as their property |
| 23:50.30 | jnwhiteh | *shrug* |
| 23:50.36 | ZorbaGama | I've been plugging away on v1 for months, I'm gonna be releasing the damn thing before I drop it all |
| 23:50.45 | Nechckn_AFK | jnwhiteh quite true |
| 23:50.48 | ZorbaGama | but once v1 is out and stable, I'm putting it directly into maintenance mode and not bothering with new features |
| 23:50.48 | NightHawkTheSane | (no offense to you personally, of course) |
| 23:51.21 | ZorbaGama | I suspect the donations I'll get, especially if the curse client author reward program ever gets off the ground, will leave it worthwhile to keep it running. Just not to write anything new. |
| 23:51.23 | bleeter | jnwhiteh: well, yeah. to me it's been obvious from ToU/EULA that technically no one can earn any $ from WoW w/o BLizz's permission... for any reason. So.. this isn't really unexpected |
| 23:51.28 | bleeter | ZorbaGama: rightio :) |
| 23:51.29 | Dagmar | Just because Kopp won the right to keep selling his book doesn't mean he automatically wins the right to sell an addon |
| 23:52.03 | NeoTron | ZorbaGama: no offense, but I doubt people would quit WoW without questhelper |
| 23:52.09 | bleeter | book is meta-game (out of game) though, not modifying blizz's IP |
| 23:52.10 | Dagmar | ...and I'm pretty sure the actual lawyers who read Slashdot will know that |
| 23:52.14 | Rabbitbunny | I doubt it would get to court. They'll turn off the API or otherwise block the addon. Much cheaper. |
| 23:52.29 | NeoTron | people didn't quit WoW when much more drastic changes happened (the whole decursing/smart healing crush of 2.0) |
| 23:52.34 | ZorbaGama | neotron, I strongly suspect they would. I've gotten many, many donations saying things like "I was about to unsubscribe and then I found QH, thanks for making it fun again" |
| 23:52.41 | bleeter | Cairenn: so where does this leave Magelo? |
| 23:52.48 | ZorbaGama | keep in mind that the people who even understand what "decursing" is aren't QH's audience |
| 23:52.54 | foxlit | Magelo is not an addon, iirc |
| 23:52.55 | NeoTron | ZorbaGama: people always say "I will quit if" and rarely do |
| 23:52.58 | Cairenn | bleeter: /shrug, I don't know where they were before, so |
| 23:53.00 | Shirik | bleeter: Magelo was against TOS from day 1 tbh |
| 23:53.07 | Cairenn | I don't know that it was ever rules on |
| 23:53.08 | ZorbaGama | QH's audience are two groups: the people who want to powerlevel an alt, and the people who find WoW questing too confusing. |
| 23:53.09 | Dagmar | Considering that Kopp was filing complaints against anyone else trying to sell WoW guides on eBay doesn't exactly help his likability either |
| 23:53.15 | *** join/#wowuidev Legorol (n=legorol@stud-nat-blk12.trin.cam.ac.uk) |
| 23:53.15 | *** mode/#WoWUIDev [+v Legorol] by ChanServ |
| 23:53.38 | Slakah | Questing is taxing on the brain |
| 23:53.46 | Dagmar | reedin iz hard |
| 23:54.15 | ckknight | Dagmar: no u |
| 23:54.23 | |Jelly| | Questing, the same quests 8 times per server is a pain in the butt imo. It's nice to just have something make it efficient, if nothing else. |
| 23:55.14 | bleeter | Cairenn, Shirik: yeah, my understanding too. but it'll be pretty hard for blizz to crack down on some random q addon author who earns fuck all compared to a fully commercial product like that |
| 23:55.25 | Cairenn | nod |
| 23:55.34 | bleeter | so to my 2c of IANAL training, they'd have to get magelo banned first |
| 23:55.57 | Cairenn | I don't know for sure, but I would like to think and hope that they would go to an author and ask nicely first, before they went any further than that |
| 23:56.05 | Cairenn | (ask them to comply) |
| 23:56.17 | Dagmar | I don't really see them moving against QH |
| 23:56.41 | Kaso | Is it just me or is the no-obfucication thing more interesting than the selling stuff |
| 23:56.52 | Kaso | i mean i know they sorta go together but yeah |
| 23:56.53 | bleeter | oh that IS very interesting |
| 23:57.00 | Kaso | what's thott going to do now |
| 23:57.03 | Dagmar | Kaso: I dunno about "interesting". Forward-thinking, perhaps. |
| 23:57.08 | Nechckn_AFK | It's easy enough for anyone to know, email to mailto:WoWUI@blizzard.com a link to your addon and say "Am I okay?" |
| 23:57.13 | Kaso | Also how obfucicated is obfucicated |
| 23:57.22 | Kaso | what if i've just got very bad coding practicises |
| 23:57.26 | Nechckn_AFK | Then make ten copies of any replies and save them. |
| 23:57.26 | Dagmar | Kaso: People don't do it by half-measures. |
| 23:57.28 | Cairenn | again, I would think that a lot of this is pre-emptive action in response to "big commercial addon development houses", not the little average joe author |
| 23:57.39 | Nechckn_AFK | Cairenn as do I |
| 23:58.00 | Esamynn | NO, don't you UNDERSTAND, they are *out to get us all*!!!! :P |
| 23:58.06 | Cairenn | unfortunately they have to draw a line somewhere =/ |
| 23:58.06 | bleeter | Cairenn: me too, but I still can't help think of the new microsoft advertising agreement Blizz have |
| 23:58.14 | Legorol | Esamynn, as i said earlier, just you |
| 23:58.20 | bleeter | Cairenn: coincidence? maybe... bloody good timing, absolutely ;) |
| 23:58.23 | Legorol | and just because you are paranoid.. |
| 23:58.38 | Esamynn | Legorol: there you go repeating yourself |
| 23:58.45 | Legorol | what? me? |
| 23:58.47 | Esamynn | you're as nutso as I am |
| 23:58.54 | Cairenn | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:58.57 | bleeter | least he ain't nutzo as me |
| 23:58.57 | bleeter | yet |
| 23:59.02 | Arrowmaster | cog|away: you are either going to love or hate the post i just made |
| 23:59.02 | Dagmar | What, go tot he mage trainer and have them say "If you're REALLY like to destroy some stuff, install Vista!" |
| 23:59.04 | Legorol | i bet i never said anything in here about you being paranoid before :P |
| 23:59.14 | Dagmar | s/you're/you'd/; |
| 23:59.17 | Kaso | First they took away the luac, and i did not speak up because i did no compile, next they took away obfuscation, but i did not speak up because i do not obfuscaticate.... ;p |
| 23:59.27 | Esamynn | ~whaleslap Legorol |
| 23:59.28 | purl | ACTION beats Legorol upside and over the head with a freakishly huge killer whale named Hugh |
