| 00:02.49 | Wormy__ | yum http://images.nymag.com/nymetro/news/features/extreme040510_3_225.jpg |
| 00:03.45 | *** join/#sporewiki Monet2 (~Monet47@82-132-216-184.dab.02.net) |
| 00:07.14 | Monet2 | Side note is Angazhar's words sound like he's describing every demagogue ever |
| 00:07.28 | Monet2 | words to Tyrone |
| 00:10.09 | Monet2 | Not that that's a bad thing |
| 00:12.23 | Xho | Angazhar - y'all trippin' |
| 00:15.32 | Tybusen | http://spore.wikia.com/wiki/Fiction:Grand_Spodist_Church/Territory I've tried reworking the economic summaries of this page but I don't know if the new descriptions are better or more confusing |
| 00:16.46 | Tybusen | Monet2 or Charles_Murray you might be able to give me pointers on how to improve the economics summaries |
| 00:17.12 | Charles_Murray | Hmm |
| 00:17.16 | Monet2 | I'll have a look |
| 00:19.23 | Charles_Murray | One comment I would have is that, generally, a planet that benefits greatly from trade is by definition not self-sufficient |
| 00:20.05 | Charles_Murray | It dedicates a great portion of its economy to overproducing a good which it can export, and then imports what it cannot produce efficiently |
| 00:20.36 | Charles_Murray | Otherwise, this is really good, detailed, and well thought out |
| 00:20.48 | Tybusen | Right, I haven't updated the others, only the ones in the "Kereo Sovereignty" section are updated with the new format |
| 00:21.09 | Tybusen | The others are still based on my old flawed understanding of economic self-sufficiency and the importance of trade |
| 00:21.46 | Charles_Murray | Oh, I see |
| 00:21.48 | Charles_Murray | I'll focus on those |
| 00:22.13 | Xho | Hachiman: Why delete Cherish the Twilight btw |
| 00:22.26 | Monet2 | There's a lot more info in that state |
| 00:22.31 | Hachiman | All of it was non-canon |
| 00:22.54 | Xho | eh |
| 00:24.03 | Xho | How so |
| 00:24.42 | Charles_Murray | Tybusen : one thing you could track is the flow of capital from the place where it is being slushed and managed (post-industrial) to the place where it is being invested and put to work (industrial) |
| 00:25.44 | Tybusen | I think that's something to put in a more detailed economic overview rather than a short summary (which is what I was going for) |
| 00:26.44 | Tybusen | I figure the most important things for describing a local-level economy would be what they're good at making and selling, what they need to buy, and how able are they to sell and buy things |
| 00:26.48 | Charles_Murray | The flow of capital is actually a critical component of the economic structure of a region/world/etc |
| 00:27.19 | Charles_Murray | It's not measured as such, but it's a part of a region's imports/exports/industries |
| 00:28.00 | Monet2 | who is buying what from where? |
| 00:28.12 | Tybusen | I'm not sure how I could condense a description of the planet's flow of capital into a sentence or less, unless it's more simple than what I'm thinking |
| 00:28.45 | Charles_Murray | The United States may have a trade deficit in goods, for example, but it offsets this by having a capital surplus. In other words, the United States is a churning house for the world's capital, capitalists from other states send us their monies so we can turn them into more monies |
| 00:29.05 | drom | Wormy__: http://i.imgur.com/SM1GqVT.jpg |
| 00:29.09 | drom | I see nothing wrong |
| 00:31.19 | Tybusen | So, in a general sense, what other factors tend to shape how an economy's flow of capital is? |
| 00:33.30 | Tybusen | If a description of the planet's flow of capital can't be condensed into a sentence, I'm gonna save it for a detailed economic overview rather than use it for the "economy" bullet point, I'm already thinking that the "economy" bullet might be getting too long |
| 00:33.45 | Wormy__ | Missing Kirk |
| 00:34.53 | Charles_Murray | Well, one way to think about it is that capital is concentrated in post-industrial regions where financial infrastructure is, such as stock markets, investment banks, commercial banks, financial consulting agencies, legal firms, insurance firms, etc, etc, and it is usually in these places that capital is dispensed, traded, etc, in a very complex > |
| 00:35.24 | Charles_Murray | set of relationships and exchanges which end up (most of the time) making more money for everyone involved |
| 00:36.44 | Charles_Murray | In the end, capital tends to flow from there outwards, financing ventures both in the center and the periphery and connecting both |
| 00:37.40 | Tybusen | Right, so a wealthy capital world like Quilyuon would be a center of capital and have a general outflow of capital, while primarily industrial regions would have an inflow of capital, if they're doing well that is |
| 00:38.17 | Tybusen | And I'd imagine that industrial regions having a bad inflow is a sign of economic stagnation or deterioration |
| 00:38.29 | Tybusen | i.e. what happened in the Rust Belt |
| 00:38.37 | Monet2 | Yep. |
| 00:38.54 | Charles_Murray | Usually a sign that they are not a competitive investment |
| 00:38.57 | Charles_Murray | Yes |
| 00:39.38 | Monet2 | Post industrial regions if I understand, tend to be in the minority |
| 00:40.45 | Monet2 | there's few, of them but if they prosper. The capital each one provides is immense |
| 00:42.45 | Tybusen | I guess in this case, "industrial" regions would include any region where something is produced? So not only traditional "industrial" (i.e. manufacturing and the like) but also service or creative economic areas? |
| 00:43.11 | Charles_Murray | Aye, definitely |
| 00:43.34 | Tybusen | Ah, ok, so that's why post-industrial regions, in the flow-of-capital sense, are rare |
| 00:43.56 | Tybusen | I was thinking of post-industrial in terms of "mostly service/creative/information economy" |
| 00:44.06 | Charles_Murray | Capital is also invested locally in services and the like |
| 00:44.59 | Monet2 | England's most significant post industrial region is probably the one square mile in London's dead centre |
| 00:45.24 | Tybusen | It might be easier for me to refer to these "post-industrial" regions as "financial centers" since I associate "post-industrial" with service/creative/info economy |
| 00:46.42 | Charles_Murray | Yeah, though the presence of capital is usually what makes an area post-industrial, in that you need bankers, consultants, lawyers, economists, etc to provide services in order for the capital machine to function, and these jobs need to be serviced in turn by waitresses, restaurants, taxis, hairdressers, shops, cleaning people, artists, and so on |
| 00:48.24 | Tybusen | Right |
| 00:48.48 | Tybusen | What about suburban regions that have primarily service-based economies? How are those classified? |
| 00:49.22 | Monet2 | The service economy is part of the supply chain that allows an area to reach post-industrial status, just like how factories allowed for large service regions to emerge |
| 00:49.43 | Tybusen | I don't typically think of suburbs as centers of capital though their economies are often mostly service-based |
| 00:50.16 | Charles_Murray | Suburbs are usually where the lawyers, engineers, financiers, techies, etc of the knowledge economy live because living in a city is unpleasant |
| 00:50.37 | Charles_Murray | And they usually commute to a city or another center |
| 00:50.49 | Tybusen | Right |
| 00:51.19 | drom | Awh, Xho went. |
| 00:51.27 | Tybusen | And the services in the suburban areas exist to service those people who are providing services in another area, eventually working its way to the centers of capital? |
| 00:51.36 | drom | Anyway. I was thinking about discussing about the anatomy of Zebans. |
| 00:51.59 | drom | I'm thinking them of as humanoid frogs with "tentacles" for hair |
| 00:52.14 | Charles_Murray | Tybusen : Aye |
| 00:52.21 | drom | Thinking of one from Star Wars. |
| 00:52.33 | drom | Or. Well. Asari |
| 00:52.35 | Tybusen | Alright, that all makes more sense now |
| 00:53.28 | Tybusen | Post-industrial economies tend to follow the centers of capital, and additional layers of the service economy rise up in the areas where the workers of the central post-industrial regions tend to settle |
| 00:53.55 | drom | And I must go now |
| 00:53.58 | drom | Take care! |
| 00:54.53 | Tybusen | And the centers of capital are responsible for the distribution of capital to the post-industrial regions servicing them and the post-industrial and industrial regions that are seeking investment from them |
| 00:55.01 | Charles_Murray | And there tend to be populations left over from the city-based economy of yesterday who live in abject poverty because there's nothing for them to do anymore in the city and the cost of living has become so incredibly high and they can't move because poor |
| 00:55.05 | *** join/#sporewiki ImpyDroid (~Anders@95.140.92.66) |
| 00:55.11 | ImpyDroid | Hi |
| 00:55.15 | Tybusen | Hello |
| 00:55.40 | Tybusen | I'm getting a lesson in econ right now so I can go more in-depth on the GSC planetary economies |
| 00:56.14 | ImpyDroid | Charles_Murray: How does the (real) French Senate work? Since France is a unitary state it does not serve a purpose of representing each federal subject like the US Senate or the Russian Federal Council |
| 00:56.25 | Charles_Murray | They do, actually |
| 00:56.32 | ImpyDroid | And unlike the House of Lords it is not an old institution for the aristocracy |
| 00:56.45 | ImpyDroid | Oh, so they are still gathered from each region and the like |
| 00:57.00 | ImpyDroid | How does the French election system work even? |
| 00:57.34 | Charles_Murray | The French Senate is elected indirectly by local governments and doesn't really do much; the National Assembly gets the lion's share of the attention and acrimony, while the Senate isn't exactly representative and takes a backseat. When there's disagreement between the National Assembly and the Senate, usually it's the Assembly that wins |
| 00:57.55 | ImpyDroid | I am kind of thinking of working out the Divinarium's election processes and I kind want to know how elections work in unitary states compared to federations |
| 00:58.31 | ImpyDroid | I think I wrote that the Divinarium is a federation but now that I think about it it would make more sense for them to be a proper unitary state |
| 00:58.39 | ImpyDroid | Tybusen: bretty good |
| 00:59.32 | Charles_Murray | Elections are organized in a very top-down way, organized centrally by the state. This allows them to be quite efficient about it, basically having everyone who is a citizen registered to vote automatically when they turn 18, whereas in the United States you need to register and vote with a local authority, which then reports to a larger authority, who reports to a larger authority, etc. |
| 00:59.44 | ImpyDroid | How are the governments of each department formed? Do they just get appointed by the parliament or something? |
| 01:01.00 | ImpyDroid | Oh yes as far as I understand the American system is highly convoluted |
| 01:01.09 | Charles_Murray | I think local elections, though I'm not sure on that. They don't really do much except put up stop signs, so what really matters are national elections |
| 01:01.22 | ImpyDroid | I mean srsly |
| 01:02.13 | ImpyDroid | Tybusen: "I heard you liked elections so we put elections in your elections so you could elect people who elect the president" |
| 01:02.41 | Charles_Murray | It's the result of hundreds of years of practice and evolution xD |
| 01:02.56 | ImpyDroid | The American system? |
| 01:03.02 | Tybusen | I mean the entire goal of the US system from the very beginning was to be different from British parliamentary and Athenian direct |
| 01:03.10 | Charles_Murray | Dating back to a time when voting essentially occurred when a bunch of guys took the results to a place on horseback and voted. |
| 01:03.26 | ImpyDroid | I suppose it is a remnant of back when they were a union rather than a country |
| 01:03.36 | Tybusen | Technically, the US is still a union of states |
| 01:03.49 | ImpyDroid | Yeah but you cannot secede can you? |
| 01:03.57 | Tybusen | There's just so much cultural cohesion at this point that we're essentially one nation |
| 01:04.04 | Tybusen | Unless you're Texas of course |
| 01:04.15 | ImpyDroid | As far as I remember that is what separates a federation from a confederation or a state union like the EU |
| 01:04.35 | ImpyDroid | Go fucking try leaving the US or Russia |
| 01:05.01 | Tybusen | I don't remember if it was in the Constitution or not but the Civil War definitely proved that you can't leave the Union, not without a fight at least |
| 01:07.03 | Tybusen | I mean at this point Russia is in the same place as the US in the sense that I think most of Russia stays together due to national cultural cohesion |
| 01:07.19 | Tybusen | Chechnya is a different story but tbh I don't know what's going on there anymore |
| 01:07.51 | ImpyDroid | Used a combination of bribery, local teip politics and military force them into submission |
| 01:07.52 | *** join/#sporewiki Monet (~Monet47@245.243.7.51.dyn.plus.net) |
| 01:08.13 | ImpyDroid | Basically one of the separatist leaders defected and split the movement in half |
| 01:08.26 | Tybusen | USSR fell apart partly because you had a bunch of states that weren't strictly Russian and didn't have a Russian identity, under a federal government that was mostly Russian-controlled, AFAIK |
| 01:08.50 | ImpyDroid | Well the government's ethnic makeup was... weird actually |
| 01:09.14 | ImpyDroid | Earlier on it was actually very Jewish, mostly because a lot of the revolutionary leaders were |
| 01:09.38 | ImpyDroid | What with them not being fans of the Russian Empire |
| 01:09.53 | ImpyDroid | And then there was the Georgian |
| 01:10.06 | Tybusen | Stalin was a Georgian |
| 01:10.13 | ImpyDroid | Him yep |
| 01:10.46 | Tybusen | I think Khrushchev was from Ukraine? |
| 01:10.54 | ImpyDroid | The government was rather multi ethnic but state policies sometimes favoured Russia especially in the Baltic states |
| 01:10.57 | Tybusen | Which led to the whole Crimea debacle |
| 01:11.08 | Tybusen | Well yeah the Baltics bailed at the first opportunity |
| 01:11.20 | ImpyDroid | They hated us all the while |
| 01:11.29 | Tybusen | Baltics were the first to secede I think as soon as Gorbachev let them |
| 01:11.41 | ImpyDroid | They were kept basically just by military force |
| 01:12.21 | ImpyDroid | The Caucasus states were next and Central Asia was the last, mostly because they were more like meh |
| 01:12.31 | Tybusen | Baltics were under the same sort of thing as the rest of the Eastern Bloc, except more explicitly under Soviet control |
| 01:12.58 | ImpyDroid | Basically the union republics seceded in the order based on how much they hated Russia hur |
| 01:13.02 | Tybusen | I don't remember when Ukraine and Belarus seceded, it might have been later since they have more Russian-influenced identities |
| 01:13.28 | ImpyDroid | They were among the last to secede during the Belovezha Agreement |
| 01:13.49 | ImpyDroid | Their leaders basically met in a forest in Belarus and said "okay, we all split up" |
| 01:15.15 | Tybusen | Russia - it's not you, it's me | Everyone else - yea | Russia - ok that's a little uncalled for |
| 01:15.44 | ImpyDroid | Just checked, Ukraine and Belarus left rather late but earlier than some Central Asian republics |
| 01:16.11 | ImpyDroid | Kazakhstan was the last to leave |
| 01:16.27 | ImpyDroid | Kind of makes sense considering it was like 50% Russian |
| 01:17.37 | ImpyDroid | Kazakhstan was like this frontier region meets prison |
| 01:18.09 | ImpyDroid | You either went there voluntarily to explore a new untamed land |
| 01:18.11 | Tybusen | I'd imagine most of Central Asia was populated by Russian colonists/settlers at that point in history |
| 01:18.15 | ImpyDroid | Or you were sent there off |
| 01:18.54 | ImpyDroid | They were but outside Kazakhstan they were not as numerous, and most of them were driven away by the locals AFAIK |
| 01:19.22 | Tybusen | I think Central Asia is the origin of some of the Turkish groups but I don't know how many of them were still there by the 20th century |
| 01:19.38 | ImpyDroid | Every Central Asian state but one is Turkic |
| 01:19.41 | Tybusen | At least one of them left at some point and became the Ottoman Turks |
| 01:19.43 | ImpyDroid | They are still there |
| 01:20.07 | *** join/#sporewiki NeonPanda (3ce5e003@gateway/web/freenode/ip.60.229.224.3) |
| 01:20.12 | The_Randomness | Hello |
| 01:20.14 | ImpyDroid | Uzbeks, Kazakhs, Turkmens and Kyrgyz..zes |
| 01:20.14 | NeonPanda | hi |
| 01:20.18 | ImpyDroid | Kyrgyzs? |
| 01:20.24 | ImpyDroid | Kyrgyzes? |
| 01:20.34 | Tybusen | Kyrgyzes looks correct |
| 01:20.36 | Tybusen | Hai Panda |
| 01:20.42 | ImpyDroid | Yeah all of them Turkic |
| 01:21.24 | NeonPanda | The_Randomness: quite a culture shock seeing Clusters be sold in denominations of a thousand |
| 01:21.32 | The_Randomness | heh |
| 01:21.47 | ImpyDroid | Save for the Tajiks they are Iranian |
| 01:22.00 | NeonPanda | the FC is going to have a hell of a stockpile after this, I'll say that much ;-; |
| 01:22.08 | ImpyDroid | Their language is like Persian but like its hillbilly version |
| 01:22.21 | ImpyDroid | They are also our Mexicans |
| 01:22.45 | Tybusen | Tajikistan is like tiny though, isn't it? |
| 01:22.55 | ImpyDroid | Yeah tiny and mostly mountainous |
| 01:23.12 | ImpyDroid | It apparently lives off the money sent by migrants |
| 01:23.35 | Tybusen | Can't imagine there's a lot of money to be made just living off of those mountains |
| 01:24.30 | NeonPanda | Tourism |
| 01:24.40 | NeonPanda | surprising amount of money to be made if you're in the right place |
| 01:25.47 | ImpyDroid | Yeah but tourism in fucking Tajikistan |
| 01:26.03 | Tybusen | Right, but there's some overhead involved in becoming a tourist economy, mostly in advertising how awesome your country is and also making sure your country isn't so dangerous that tourists don't want to come |
| 01:26.21 | ImpyDroid | It is post-communist Iran |
| 01:26.25 | NeonPanda | well point number two is a little subjective :P |
| 01:26.29 | ImpyDroid | Imagine telling that to American tourists |
| 01:26.30 | NeonPanda | (I say this being Australian) |
| 01:26.51 | ImpyDroid | "Hey we are like Iranians except we were part of the Soviet Union" |
| 01:26.52 | Tybusen | Well I mean ffs you're Australian, nothing is dangerous to you at this point |
| 01:27.33 | NeonPanda | nothing is dangerous to *us* at this point :P |
| 01:27.40 | ImpyDroid | I think one of the main industries in Tajikistan was cotton farming |
| 01:27.44 | Tybusen | Tajikistan - hey it's me your post-communist cousin, want to go bowling | Iran - ew, western decadence |
| 01:28.40 | NeonPanda | anyway, I was mostly bringing that up because for example Sherpas make a pretty hefty wage during the climbing season |
| 01:30.02 | Tybusen | Sherpas have the advantage of living in close proximity to the world's tallest mountain, that's an automatic tourist magnet, no cost |
| 01:30.08 | ImpyDroid | Tybusen: Yeah apparently they used to produce cotton and oil for the Soviet Union and I think they still do it now |
| 01:30.20 | ImpyDroid | Plus fabrics and the like |
| 01:30.39 | Tybusen | ImpyDroid: that might explain why their economy isn't great, they're selling cotton and oil to a defunct state :U |
| 01:31.08 | ImpyDroid | They sell it to us apparently |
| 01:31.27 | ImpyDroid | Cannot sell oil to anyone being so far in the continent |
| 01:31.30 | ImpyDroid | *depep |
| 01:31.36 | ImpyDroid | So they transit it through Russia |
| 01:33.05 | ImpyDroid | Tajikistan has a wreath of cotton on its coat of arms, that's why I assumed they producd cotton |
| 01:33.25 | ImpyDroid | Sometimes all the time I spend sperging on flags and coats of arms pays off |
| 01:33.47 | ImpyDroid | I was asked on a politology course which countries are part of some military alliance headed by Russia |
| 01:34.20 | ImpyDroid | I just mentioned all the countries which retain their old coats of arms |
| 01:34.30 | ImpyDroid | And holy shit I was actually right |
| 01:34.45 | Tybusen | nice |
| 01:35.52 | ImpyDroid | "People like their old coats of arms -> people do not hate the USSR -> people probably do not hate Russia -> people probably do not mind being friends with Russia" |
| 01:36.20 | ImpyDroid | They actually had really cool arms, lemme show you |
| 01:37.46 | ImpyDroid | Tybusen: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Emblem_of_the_Turkmen_SSR.svg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/94/Emblem_of_the_Uzbek_SSR.svg/836px-Emblem_of_the_Uzbek_SSR.svg.png See you can tell what each republic produced |
| 01:38.10 | Tybusen | Wow those are pretty on-the-nose |
| 01:38.34 | Tybusen | Turkmen made cotton, grain, grapes, and oil |
| 01:38.47 | Tybusen | Uzbeks had cotton and grain |
| 01:39.20 | Tybusen | Gotta love that classic Soviet star and hammer-sickle |
| 01:39.38 | ImpyDroid | Russia, Ukraine and Belarus are the weird ones, they just have grain |
| 01:39.46 | ImpyDroid | Which is correct for Ukraine but not for Belarus |
| 01:39.52 | ImpyDroid | Or Russia |
| 01:40.41 | Tybusen | Russia - nonsense, we are but simple grain farmers, these are grain silos not nuclear silos |
| 01:40.55 | ImpyDroid | https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6e/Emblem_of_the_Byelorussian_SSR_%281981-1991%29.svg/714px-Emblem_of_the_Byelorussian_SSR_%281981-1991%29.svg.png Belarus still uses this |
| 01:41.27 | ImpyDroid | They literally just recoloured the ribbons and removed the hammer and sickle |
| 01:41.45 | ImpyDroid | Now they literally just have a sheaf of plants for a coat of arms |
| 01:41.53 | Tybusen | From what I remember, Belarus is pretty close to Russia for post-Soviet state standards |
| 01:42.03 | Tybusen | At least compared to Ukraine at least |
| 01:42.09 | ImpyDroid | Belarus is the First Order of the post-Soviet world |
| 01:42.39 | Tybusen | So they idolize Russia to a disturbing extent |
| 01:42.48 | ImpyDroid | the Soviet Union |
| 01:43.28 | Tybusen | So Hetalia's portrayal of Belarus isn't that far off actually |
| 01:44.07 | ImpyDroid | We are in a union with them so one can move freely in and out of Belarus and Russia |
| 01:44.16 | Tybusen | Oh yeah that's right |
| 01:44.22 | Tybusen | Commonwealth of Independent States |
| 01:44.33 | ImpyDroid | No, no, the Commons Union |
| 01:44.37 | Tybusen | Oh |
| 01:44.51 | ImpyDroid | Customs Union even |
| 01:45.04 | ImpyDroid | The CIS is still around but nobody cares about it |
| 01:45.29 | Tybusen | tbh "Customs Union" sounds like a really dull name for a supranational organization |
| 01:45.39 | ImpyDroid | The Customs Union is basically just Russia + whoever still likes us |
| 01:45.52 | ImpyDroid | Basically just Belarus and Kazakhstan |
| 01:45.52 | *** join/#sporewiki DrodoEmpire (8ea6d7d0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.142.166.215.208) |
| 01:46.12 | Tybusen | Belarussiazakhstan |
| 01:46.47 | ImpyDroid | Belarus is particularily close |
| 01:46.59 | ImpyDroid | I remember there being a patriotic essay contest on the "unity of Russia and Belarus" |
| 01:47.21 | ImpyDroid | I actually got a pretty high place there, like second place or sometbing |
| 01:47.47 | ImpyDroid | "Watch how the unity of the two Slavic people is strengthened by an Asian kid" |
| 01:47.53 | ImpyDroid | *peoples |
| 01:49.47 | ImpyDroid | Tybusen: Basically Belarus, Kazakhstan, Russia, and a few other irrelevant countries are part of the Customs Union, but Belarus and Russia are also in a so called "Union State" |
| 01:49.50 | ImpyDroid | Or something |
| 01:50.28 | ImpyDroid | Apparently Lukashenko (president/dictator of Belarus) actually wanted to take power in Russia in the 90s |
| 01:50.35 | Tybusen | This all really just confirms to me Hetalia's portrayal of Belarus as Russia's crazy younger sister that keeps trying to get him to marry her |
| 01:51.13 | Tybusen | I can't actually be too far off the mark saying that at this point |
| 01:51.42 | ImpyDroid | Belarus in Hetalia is a crazy incestuous girl right |
| 01:52.19 | Tybusen | yea |
| 01:52.28 | ImpyDroid | ...In the light of the fact that my first girlfriend was Belorussian, this feels weird |
| 01:53.44 | Tybusen | It's all part of Belarus' plan, if Lukashenko can't marry Putin and make it official, they'll just have the entire population of Belarus marry into Russian families :U |
| 01:54.43 | Tybusen | Though, I did have a friend in high school who was Belorussian, and he was pretty meh about Russia in general, mostly a lot of self-deprecating Russian and Belorussian jokes |
| 01:55.28 | ImpyDroid | Belorussians are generally okay with Russians unless they are fierce nationalists |
| 01:56.05 | Tybusen | Actually I think he ended up as being the "Russian one" in our friend group since he was the only one who spoke Russian, and just rolled with it and made self-deprecating Russia jokes most of the time |
| 01:56.12 | ImpyDroid | Their history is a bit odd as it is kind of hard to say if they were ever an independent nation, unlike Ukraine which certainly was at multiple points in history |
| 01:56.32 | ImpyDroid | So nationalists are not as common there as in Ukraine |
| 01:56.32 | Tybusen | Yeah, I'm pretty sure half of Belarus was traditionally Lithuanian at one point in history |
| 01:56.43 | ImpyDroid | All of it actually |
| 01:57.08 | ImpyDroid | Here is actually the thing: though the Grand Duchy of Lithuania was ruled by Lithuanians |
| 01:57.21 | ImpyDroid | And the elites were Lithuanian |
| 01:57.57 | DrodoEmpire | So what actually distinguishes Belorussians from Russians or Lithuanians? |
| 01:58.23 | ImpyDroid | Language and culture obviously |
| 01:58.27 | ImpyDroid | Lemme explain |
| 01:58.51 | ImpyDroid | The majority of the population were Slavs, including the nobles, and the main language of the empire was actually a form of Old Russian |
| 01:58.51 | DrodoEmpire | Well yes that's what distinguishes *any* ethnic group-- how big are the differences? |
| 01:58.58 | DrodoEmpire | Right |
| 01:59.41 | ImpyDroid | Lithuanian was not used as it actually was not a written language |
| 02:00.02 | DrodoEmpire | Ah |
| 02:00.24 | ImpyDroid | So in a sense, the Grand Duchy of Lithuania was basically a Belorussian state, though the name Belorussian was not there yet |
| 02:00.30 | ImpyDroid | People just called themselves Russian |
| 02:01.08 | ImpyDroid | DrodoEmpire: The borders of three East Slavic nations basically delineate based on by whom they were conquered |
| 02:01.23 | ImpyDroid | Belorussians = Conquered by Lithuaniand |
| 02:01.27 | ImpyDroid | *Lithuanians |
| 02:01.46 | ImpyDroid | Ukrainians = Conquered by Lithuanians and then given off to Poles |
| 02:01.57 | ImpyDroid | Russians = Conquered by Mongols or not conquered at all |
| 02:02.41 | ImpyDroid | How different are they, well |
| 02:03.14 | DrodoEmpire | Ahh, fair enough |
| 02:03.21 | ImpyDroid | In terms of language, the difference is primarily in the more complex lexicon |
| 02:03.25 | Tybusen | DrodoEmpire: http://spore.wikia.com/wiki/Fiction:Grand_Spodist_Church/Territory btw, I've restructured the economy summaries for the planets in the "Kereo Sovereignty" section, any comments or pointers would be appreciated |
| 02:03.59 | ImpyDroid | Ukrainians and Belorussians use lots of Polish, German or native words where Russians substitute Church Slavonic words instead |
| 02:04.19 | ImpyDroid | The sound of the languages is different but enough to impede communication |
| 02:04.31 | ImpyDroid | *not enough |
| 02:05.59 | ImpyDroid | Tybusen: Planets where all food is imported kind of scare me, interstellar travel is hardly reliable after all |
| 02:06.07 | DrodoEmpire | Tybusen: Okay cool |
| 02:06.10 | DrodoEmpire | And by now yes it is |
| 02:06.20 | DrodoEmpire | It'd be about as reliable as sea travel, actually |
| 02:06.43 | Tybusen | The planets that are labeled as trade-dependent for food don't necessarily get all food from trade |
| 02:07.02 | DrodoEmpire | With wide access to hyperspace drives, and the hyperurbanisation of major worlds there would be worlds where the majority of their basic needs come from elsewhere |
| 02:07.22 | DrodoEmpire | Like modern day cities |
| 02:07.27 | Tybusen | I'd imagine, especially for species homeworlds, there's still local agriculture leftover from past times or just country folk wanting to carry on their rustic lifestyles |
| 02:07.41 | Tybusen | But it's not enough to support a modern interstellar metropolis by itself |
| 02:07.48 | DrodoEmpire | Yeah, same way there're still farmers living in New York State |
| 02:08.18 | DrodoEmpire | For example, anyway |
| 02:09.10 | Tybusen | Early interstellar nations might tend more towards food self-sufficiency for their worlds, but like IRL, improvements in transportation tech would allow for agriculture to be relegated to other worlds |
| 02:10.07 | ImpyDroid | How much of New York State isn't city actually? |
| 02:10.30 | ImpyDroid | For some reason I was always under the impression that it was a city state but I think I am mistaken |
| 02:10.47 | Tybusen | NYC is pretty small compared to NY State |
| 02:10.52 | Tybusen | Like |
| 02:11.01 | DrodoEmpire | Yeah, in size |
| 02:11.14 | DrodoEmpire | But it makes up a large amount of population and is a complete sink for resources |
| 02:11.34 | Tybusen | Very small percentage of NY State's land area, especially considering NYC is spread across not only NY, but also New Jersey and Connecticut |
| 02:12.04 | DrodoEmpire | My point is that its unlikely that the agricultural output of NY state could sustain the whole state including NYC and expect economic strength to remain where it is |
| 02:12.38 | Tybusen | There's also cities like Buffalo in the north on the lakes, most of NY isn't a huge metro area like NYC though |
| 02:13.14 | DrodoEmpire | Sure, but the area itself doesn't matter- the population within does, and the demands of said population |
| 02:13.19 | DrodoEmpire | Being a world city, its enormous |
| 02:13.34 | Tybusen | If you turned most of upstate NY into farmland, it might be able to meet NYC's food demands, but NY State is decidedly not really an agriculture state |
| 02:13.35 | DrodoEmpire | Same for a huge central economic world |
| 02:13.52 | DrodoEmpire | Right, and that'd hurt its economic potential |
| 02:14.08 | Tybusen | NY State isn't a good agri state, not like states on the major North American rivers |
| 02:14.16 | DrodoEmpire | Right, of course |
| 02:14.41 | DrodoEmpire | And I can see there being major worlds that *can* sustain themselves, at least for a time, because of extremely fertile soil |
| 02:14.49 | DrodoEmpire | i.e New Aratacia in the UIS |
| 02:15.32 | DrodoEmpire | Which is both a commerce world *and* an agriworld thanks to soil so absurdly rich you can grow multiple crops of huge yields in a single year |
| 02:16.02 | Tybusen | Though with worlds like that, you eventually reach a point where the spread of urban areas and the growth of the population will overtake the crop potential of the remaining agri land |
| 02:16.07 | DrodoEmpire | ^ |
| 02:16.37 | DrodoEmpire | NA hasn't reached that point yet, mostly due to the Drodo only actually owning a small share of the land directly with the rest under the rule of native fiefdoms |
| 02:17.20 | DrodoEmpire | So the cities are walled and pretty strictly planned to deal with population growth, while settlers are encouraged to buy rural land |
| 02:17.24 | Tybusen | And I'd imagine that would especially be the case with species homeworlds, which have to be fertile enough to support the growth of a global civilization, but eventually their populations will have to rely on other worlds for agriculture because they're typically the oldest planets in their civilizations and will have the largest populations |
| 02:17.35 | DrodoEmpire | Yeah |
| 02:17.59 | Monet | By far in a lot of cases. |
| 02:18.43 | ImpyDroid | That being said I think making planets self-sufficient is pretty usy |
| 02:18.46 | ImpyDroid | easy |
| 02:18.51 | Tybusen | I guess if you're a civilization who doesn't have qualms about conquering other species, species homeworlds make for great agriculture worlds since they have the agricultural potential to support a lot of people if you go full-agri |
| 02:18.57 | ImpyDroid | Just make vats where algae and the like are grown |
| 02:19.04 | ImpyDroid | Algae, yeast, something |
| 02:19.23 | Tybusen | Yeah, I'd imagine agricultural self-sufficiency would get easier as biotech and related fields continue to advance |
| 02:19.56 | DrodoEmpire | I imagine virgin worlds free of civilisation might be good too |
| 02:20.07 | DrodoEmpire | Lots of untilled soil |
| 02:20.20 | ImpyDroid | Some sort of easily produced food that can be grown in some sort of vats |
| 02:20.29 | ImpyDroid | Or in oceans |
| 02:20.40 | Tybusen | I guess another question is how much population growth slows down as a result of medical advances, since I know medicine and increase in standard of living tends to reduce population growth in human society |
| 02:21.03 | DrodoEmpire | Oh yeah |
| 02:21.08 | DrodoEmpire | Definitely a thing to consider |
| 02:21.15 | ImpyDroid | I do not remember writing it anywhere but I stated somewhere that most Divinarian food is made of processef yeast and algae |
| 02:21.19 | ImpyDroid | *processed |
| 02:21.58 | Tybusen | I think there was some number that the human population was supposed to plateau at due to the nature of the logistical growth curve |
| 02:22.13 | Monet | Self sufficiency can be possible if you omit a few comforts. |
| 02:22.34 | Monet | food self-sufficiency |
| 02:22.59 | Tybusen | Though I wonder if the population transfers involved in colonization would have an effect of birth rate, |
| 02:23.00 | Monet | But in an interstellar empire one can dedicate entire planets to thep roduction of food. |
| 02:23.26 | DrodoEmpire | I can see birth rates spiking in the first generation or so before dropping off |
| 02:24.04 | Monet | The colonies could be where the new growth comes from. |
| 02:24.42 | Monet | I've seen colonisation proposals where after a time the first colonies develop enough that they start organising their ow ncolonisation missions. |
| 02:24.42 | Tybusen | Pretty much the main limiter on population growth is food, and then also reasons for having more kids |
| 02:25.42 | Tybusen | I'd imagine early interstellar colonies would follow a new logistical growth curve since they would want more workers to build up the colony |
| 02:26.18 | Tybusen | I don't know how colonies in the modern interstellar age would grow, especially if they're in close proximity to existing civilization |
| 02:26.31 | Tybusen | I'd imagine they'd be more like suburban worlds at that point |
| 02:26.50 | Tybusen | As opposed to essentially being a homesteader colony |
| 02:28.40 | Tybusen | In the modern interstellar age, everything is so interconnected that you can start thinking of planets as just planet-sized cities |
| 02:33.23 | Tybusen | I think you could reasonably say that most interstellar civs will experience a new population boom around the time that they can start reliably relegating agriculture to specialty worlds, and getting a humongous food surplus as a result |
| 02:34.25 | Monet | With a city or a nation, resources are limited ot a rather small area. |
| 02:34.56 | Monet | But for a planet, its resources are indicitive of the minerals that exist within its solar ssytem. |
| 03:10.33 | NeonPanda | The_Randomness: wew I think I have all the mats for the greatsword |
| 03:10.39 | The_Randomness | nice |
| 03:10.47 | NeonPanda | actually I'm missing one demimateria |
| 03:11.27 | NeonPanda | also yeah the FC is going to have a small surplus of a couple hundred clusters here and there because smallest denominations |
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| 09:59.27 | ImpyDroid | Tybusen: http://cs604722.vk.me/v604722512/219fc/03fKQBDWcsA.jpg |
| 10:16.39 | ImpyDroid | Liquid_Ink Tybusen: One thing kind of bugs me about Star Wars' Galactic Republic |
| 10:17.34 | ImpyDroid | Chancellor is the title of a head of government, not the head of state, and judging by the fact that Palpatine is elected by the Senate it is a parliamentary republic |
| 10:17.42 | ImpyDroid | But then who's the head of state? |
| 10:17.57 | ImpyDroid | Shouldn't there be some useless president who does nothing? |
| 10:19.32 | Liquid_Ink_ | I don't think "chancellor" is fixed to a head of government rather than head of state |
| 10:19.56 | Liquid_Ink_ | THe head of state doesn't need to be called "President" it just usally is |
| 10:20.53 | Liquid_Ink_ | Also, "chancellor" referred to head of state rather than government for, at the very least, Germany |
| 10:21.10 | ImpyDroid | Yeah but wasn't it only after Hitler took power? |
| 10:21.24 | Liquid_Ink_ | No, it was before that |
| 10:21.27 | ImpyDroid | Wait |
| 10:21.35 | ImpyDroid | I thought they had a Reichspresident |
| 10:21.42 | ImpyDroid | As well as a Chancellor |
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| 10:21.50 | ImpyDroid | I mean there was Hindenburg |
| 10:21.54 | NeonPanda | hi all |
| 10:22.09 | Ghelae | Hi |
| 10:22.36 | Liquid_Ink_ | Actually I think I got that wrong |
| 10:22.52 | Liquid_Ink_ | Chancellor was head of government, and the president was head of state |
| 10:24.08 | Liquid_Ink_ | But my point still stands that a parliamentary republic need not have the two positions as separate, and it doesn't really matter what the position is called |
| 10:25.45 | ImpyDroid | Hu |
| 10:25.47 | ImpyDroid | Hi |
| 10:25.50 | Liquid_Ink_ | Lucas only made the title "chancellor" for the Nazni reference |
| 10:26.01 | Liquid_Ink_ | Hello Panda |
| 10:33.46 | NeonPanda | I still just love that the star wars design team managed to take "space nazi with a bit of samurai thrown in for good measure" and make it work |
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| 11:23.39 | NeonPanda | hi |
| 11:23.55 | OluapPlayer | Hi |
| 11:27.09 | NeonPanda | how goes things? |
| 11:29.45 | OluapPlayer | Things are okay I guess |
| 11:29.46 | OluapPlayer | You? |
| 11:30.12 | NeonPanda | pretty good |
| 11:32.21 | NeonPanda | really enjoying Duelyst again now that I've gotten back into it proper |
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| 12:32.39 | NeonPanda | my face when the old "the code is 123456" gig actually works |
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| 12:47.09 | Wormy_ | hi |
| 12:48.04 | Liquid_Ink | Bi |
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| 12:52.05 | Ghelae | Hi |
| 12:54.32 | NeonPanda | hi all |
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| 13:08.43 | Imperios | Hachiman: https://cs7059.vk.me/c604529/v604529254/4af78/_cyihggTqqc.jpg |
| 13:09.00 | Hachiman | hur |
| 13:15.34 | Wormy_ | http://phys.org/news/2016-12-physicists-loss-dark-birth-universe.html |
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| 14:43.29 | Wormy_ | Amazon files patent for flying warehouse http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-38458867 |
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| 14:49.02 | DrodoEmpire | Hi everyone |
| 14:50.56 | Tek0516 | Hey DrodoEmpire |
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| 14:57.53 | Jepardi | Hi |
| 15:23.01 | DanzaDelMondo | Hachiman DrodoEmpire: http://social-justice-robot.tumblr.com/ Fucking brilliant |
| 15:23.17 | DrodoEmpire | Oh dear |
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| 15:47.51 | dino82 | hi |
| 15:47.54 | DrodoEmpire | Hi |
| 15:48.14 | dino82 | howz all doing?> |
| 15:48.24 | DrodoEmpire | I'm good! You? |
| 15:51.57 | dino82 | Great tohear! Me as well, a bit cold though it started freezing |
| 15:52.00 | dino82 | first time this winter |
| 15:53.34 | Wormy_ | Aye itsfoggy and frosty where I live |
| 15:53.53 | Wormy_ | No snow this year or the last couple though |
| 15:54.39 | dino82 | brr |
| 15:59.04 | DanzaDelMondo | DrodoEmpire Wormy_: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRJbWX6Tt5I Pretty old joke but still |
| 15:59.42 | DrodoEmpire | ayy |
| 16:01.16 | Wormy_ | lol |
| 16:01.33 | Wormy_ | would be funnier if faces changed expression |
| 16:06.30 | *** join/#sporewiki Monet (~Monet47@245.243.7.51.dyn.plus.net) |
| 16:06.32 | Monet | Hi |
| 16:10.43 | Wormy_ | I posted "Lemmy is now more powerful than you could ever imagine" this time last year https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CXZRPACWEAADivQ.jpg |
| 16:13.23 | DanzaDelMondo | Wormy_ DrodoEmpire: http://proud-texan-conservative.tumblr.com/post/154966830964/if-conservative-christians-acted-like-irrational I like this conservative post tried to be anti-regressive left satire, but ended up actually being anti-consrevative |
| 16:13.31 | DanzaDelMondo | *like how |
| 16:13.33 | DanzaDelMondo | *conservative |
| 16:14.42 | DrodoEmpire | Its Christian conservatism wrapped up in the language of neo-progressives |
| 16:14.51 | DanzaDelMondo | No, no, what I mean is |
| 16:15.05 | DrodoEmpire | Well that's what it is |
| 16:15.12 | DanzaDelMondo | These guys are like "imagine if we were like these silly progressivists" |
| 16:15.19 | DanzaDelMondo | And... they actually ARE like them |
| 16:15.20 | DrodoEmpire | I know |
| 16:15.26 | DrodoEmpire | That's my point too |
| 16:15.58 | DanzaDelMondo | DrodoEmpire: My point is, Christian conservatists tried to show they're better, but in doing so actually showed they are not |
| 16:16.20 | Wormy_ | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory |
| 16:16.20 | DrodoCiv | I... Know... |
| 16:16.21 | DrodoCiv | >.< |
| 16:16.24 | Wormy_ | Might be an example |
| 16:16.28 | DrodoCiv | I'm sorta saying the same thing |
| 16:16.38 | DrodoCiv | And yeah it'd be a good example of the horseshoe theory |
| 16:18.15 | DanzaDelMondo | Oh kind of misunderstood what you're saying |
| 16:18.18 | DanzaDelMondo | you were |
| 16:18.21 | DanzaDelMondo | my bad |
| 16:18.21 | Wormy_ | Remins me of the anti-globalist left and right horseshoie as well |
| 16:18.25 | DrodoCiv | Its alright |
| 16:18.37 | DrodoCiv | Ehh, to be fair there's good criticism of globalism |
| 16:19.09 | Wormy_ | Not saying there isn't. |
| 16:19.17 | DrodoCiv | I mean I dislike globalism in general even if there's benefits. International integration needs to be done *very carefully* |
| 16:19.19 | DrodoCiv | Ah fair |
| 16:21.12 | Wormy_ | Sometimes even, the left and right will embrace the same outcome over the same issue |
| 16:30.18 | DanzaDelMondo | All radicals are opposed to status quo |
| 16:30.28 | DanzaDelMondo | It would make sense for them to rebel against globalism |
| 16:31.25 | Tek0516 | http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/coffee-and-theorems |
| 17:13.03 | Wormy_ | hah hah https://twitter.com/Theresa_Maybe/status/813749822050201600 |
| 17:16.50 | Wormy_ | Hachiman: https://twitter.com/Theresa_Maybe/status/813071555177644033 |
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| 17:30.12 | NeonPanda | hi all |
| 17:34.52 | Tek0516 | Hi |
| 18:06.41 | Wormy_ | Didn't know this lived in the same waters as Megalodon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livyatan_melvillei |
| 18:20.24 | dino82 | :d |
| 18:21.22 | DanzaDelMondo | Charles_Murray: Who the fuck is this Baguetteler? |
| 18:21.24 | DanzaDelMondo | https://2ch.hk/po/src/20069121/14830082131920.webm |
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| 19:01.26 | dino82 | hi |
| 19:02.04 | *** join/#sporewiki DrodoEmpire (8ea6d7d0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.142.166.215.208) |
| 19:02.33 | DrodoEmpire | Back >.< |
| 19:03.23 | *** join/#sporewiki Xho (97e6a92b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.151.230.169.43) |
| 19:03.48 | Hachiman | Hi |
| 19:03.55 | Xho | ack |
| 19:04.25 | Hachiman | DrodoEmpire: Can I just say that from what I've been seeing, Occupy Democrats are fucking retarded |
| 19:04.47 | DrodoEmpire | I don't know a huge amount about them |
| 19:06.43 | DanzaDelMondo | Hachiman Xho: https://2ch.hk/po/src/20042751/14829417889840.jpg Maxmum kawaii |
| 19:07.21 | Hachiman | I'm not against the OWS movement but people who identify as Occupy Democrats or share interests aligned to that particular leaning have said that the election was cost because people chose to hold 'rumours' in Clinton's emails above the 'facts' about Trump |
| 19:07.31 | Hachiman | DanzaDelMondo: hur |
| 19:08.25 | DrodoEmpire | Yeah sounds a bit like astroturfing tbh |
| 19:08.32 | DanzaDelMondo | Not sure why you would support Clinton over Trump if you are against big businesses |
| 19:08.45 | DrodoEmpire | A bunch of Clintonites attempting to make a grassroots movement a wee bit too late to count |
| 19:08.47 | DanzaDelMondo | She's a corporate slave, so is Trump for that matter but at least he's slightly more independent |
| 19:09.14 | Hachiman | Because he's a xenophobe who abuses women, is their reasoning |
| 19:09.42 | DrodoEmpire | I mean, might be legitimate grassroots people for all I know, but Clinton's hardly the best candidate for such a thing >.< |
| 19:12.07 | Hachiman | They also seem to be anti-Putin from what I've seen, saying that Trump's filling the cabinet with Putin's allies after he apparently somehow rigged the election to cause Hillary to lose |
| 19:12.22 | Xho | DanzaDelMondo: cheeki breeki putin keeti |
| 19:13.05 | DanzaDelMondo | Hachiman: Well, for that matter, we DID leak the emails |
| 19:13.24 | Hachiman | Yes but that's not a bad thing hur |
| 19:13.28 | DanzaDelMondo | I consider this to be an achievement but I imagine that it would lower Trump's legitimacy |
| 19:13.32 | DanzaDelMondo | In the USA |
| 19:13.38 | DanzaDelMondo | Yeah it isn't |
| 19:14.31 | Charles_Murray | DanzaDelMundo Uh. No idea. |
| 19:17.51 | Hachiman | DrodoEmpire: https://scontent-amt2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15590169_2500106390012405_3500358057682673782_n.png?oh=577f03fede7dde1e00ce3b4b499d3068&oe=58F2A6A8 |
| 19:18.03 | DrodoEmpire | ayy lmao |
| 19:28.32 | DanzaDelMondo | Hachiman: https://youtu.be/6qEjuAiXBlU?t=93 |
| 19:29.28 | Technobliterator | There is still no proof that you leaked the emails |
| 19:30.09 | Technobliterator | Also, "Occupy Democrats" is an oxymoron, the Democratic Party is a counter-revolutionary party which has no interest in the Occupy Wall Street movement |
| 19:30.58 | DrodoEmpire | russia hacked the occupy movement to turn the frogs gay |
| 19:31.00 | DrodoEmpire | or something |
| 19:31.36 | Technobliterator | wat |
| 19:31.45 | DanzaDelMondo | DrodoEmpire: There have been even more outlandish claims |
| 19:32.05 | DrodoEmpire | Technobliterator: I don't know XD I've been very bored these past couple days |
| 19:32.11 | DrodoEmpire | True |
| 19:32.30 | Technobliterator | Some of Occupy Democrats' posts are really good posts, but for the most part, I don't really get why a group that wants to occupy wall street aligns itself with a wall street party |
| 19:32.45 | Technobliterator | it makes more sense to want to actually occupy the party and take it over from within |
| 19:32.52 | DanzaDelMondo | DrodoEmpire Technobliterator: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2400317/russia-may-organise-migrant-sex-attacks-in-europe-to-make-angela-merkel-lose-german-elections-eu-experts-claim/ Behold |
| 19:32.52 | Technobliterator | than just blindly support it |
| 19:32.57 | Technobliterator | >the sun |
| 19:32.59 | Technobliterator | no thanks |
| 19:33.06 | DanzaDelMondo | But |
| 19:33.14 | DrodoEmpire | Yeah I heard of that a lot |
| 19:33.17 | DanzaDelMondo | Russia organising Muslim rape attacks |
| 19:33.20 | DanzaDelMondo | That's fucking brilliant |
| 19:33.28 | DanzaDelMondo | Imagine how it would go IRL |
| 19:34.36 | DrodoEmpire | I don't get the British tendency to dismiss things out of hand based on what publication its rfom |
| 19:34.55 | DrodoEmpire | Comes off as really puerile |
| 19:35.56 | DanzaDelMondo | No idea either |
| 19:36.02 | DanzaDelMondo | Happened several times iwht Monet |
| 19:36.52 | DrodoEmpire | I mean I get some publications are usually pretty bad |
| 19:36.58 | DrodoEmpire | But that's no justification |
| 19:37.28 | DrodoEmpire | A lot of UK newspapers in particular are just literal memes, but still |
| 19:38.35 | Hachiman | It's the fucking Sun |
| 19:38.40 | Hachiman | Nothing good comes out of that |
| 19:38.59 | DrodoEmpire | ^ You're just providing examples for me |
| 19:39.15 | DanzaDelMondo | Yeah I am a bit puzzled by this too |
| 19:39.28 | DanzaDelMondo | Some of our newspapers are crooked but we never outright dismiss them |
| 19:40.02 | Hachiman | The guys who run The Sun and a couple of other publications are politically biased morons who contradict themselves on a stupidly consistent basis and cannot seem to get their priorities straight when it comes to what issues and matters make it to the front page and what's given just a minor passing on the back |
| 19:40.02 | DrodoEmpire | Yeah that behavior seems to reinforce echo chamber mentality tbh |
| 19:40.22 | DrodoEmpire | Okay, so its generally a bad paper |
| 19:40.50 | DrodoEmpire | But that's *still* not a reason to simply deny shit based on a source |
| 19:42.33 | DrodoEmpire | http://heatst.com/culture-wars/russia-could-orchestrate-mass-sex-attacks-by-migrants-to-swing-german-elections/ - Perhaps a more balanced article. It seems to emphasise that this EU think tank said that such orchestration is within the Russian intelligence organisation's power-- not that they already did do it |
| 19:42.40 | DrodoEmpire | I still think its nonsense |
| 19:42.44 | DrodoEmpire | But still |
| 19:43.54 | DanzaDelMondo | Well |
| 19:43.58 | DanzaDelMondo | The FSB can do a lot of things |
| 19:44.15 | Hachiman | Angela Merkel is ech though so she deserves to get booted |
| 19:44.23 | DrodoEmpire | Yeah sure, but I think organising mass-rapes isn't one of them I don't think |
| 19:44.58 | DrodoEmpire | And even if they could its hardly worth it, given the current rates |
| 19:45.10 | DrodoEmpire | Anyway |
| 19:46.28 | Technobliterator | DrodoEmpire, it tends to happen when your newspapers are so bad that you become extremely cynical of them |
| 19:47.27 | Technobliterator | I am wary of any news source, but if it's one like the Sun, then I just dismiss it immediately |
| 19:49.19 | Hachiman | Aye, the Sun and a few others are so monumentally bad they deserve to be ignored |
| 19:49.29 | Hachiman | Don't even count the Sun as a source |
| 19:49.37 | Hachiman | It's just shit, piss, and garbage |
| 19:49.42 | DrodoEmpire | I still think that that's an unhealthy thing with UK culture |
| 19:49.44 | DrodoEmpire | Anyway |
| 19:49.49 | Ghelae | I don't know if anybody - even Jo - seriously means "this story is in this publication, therefore it *must* be wrong", just that you might as well get your news in advance from an astrologer. Sure, it'll be right sometimes. |
| 19:50.01 | Ghelae | Hachi might, by the sound of it. |
| 19:50.11 | DrodoEmpire | They're still dismissing it |
| 19:50.20 | DrodoEmpire | Refusing to read the article, I assume(?) |
| 19:50.41 | DrodoEmpire | Anyway I'm gonna be gone for a while, so bll |
| 19:50.42 | DrodoEmpire | *bbl |
| 19:51.03 | Wormy_ | http://i.imgur.com/rzWLj6B.png |
| 19:51.06 | Technobliterator | I refused to read it based on the source and the headline, not one of those things in isolation |
| 19:51.07 | Hachiman | I'm not saying the story itself is wrong because it's in the Sun; I am saying that reading the Sun's version of the story means you may as well be reading child's fiction |
| 19:52.24 | Ghelae | So there you go. I guess we could get Wormy to comment too if we try to frame this as an epistemological discussion. |
| 19:52.51 | Wormy_ | Hi, what's this? |
| 19:54.20 | Ghelae | The validity of dismissing an piece of information without examining it, based on its source. In this case, articles in tabloids. |
| 19:56.48 | Wormy_ | Well, I think its perfectly fine to choose your sources. If I see some science news virally advertised to me that piqued my interest, I normally forgo the said page and search for it in a more respectable publication. I think when finding the validity of something, its up to the reader. There's nothing wrong with them ignoring a certain source as long as they look elsewhere |
| 19:57.11 | Wormy_ | Personally, I won't normally read articles by the Sun or Daily Express because they usually put me in a bad mood |
| 19:57.34 | Wormy_ | I don't like their writing style, nor do I like some of the linked headlines |
| 20:03.09 | DrodoEmpire | Right |
| 20:03.39 | DrodoEmpire | I'm not saying that you should force yourself to read from publications you dislike either |
| 20:03.52 | DrodoEmpire | It just seems to be a bit extreme in among some British is all |
| 20:06.10 | DanzaDelMondo | OluapPlayer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTtaBP2JAnM |
| 20:06.33 | Technobliterator | Well, thepoor quality of sources seems to be uniquer as well |
| 20:06.53 | Wormy_ | British people are extremely tribal in a way. It owes to our history (which was pretty split up until recent centuries); but also extreme class divisions. |
| 20:07.02 | DrodoEmpire | Yeah I suppose |
| 20:07.52 | Wormy_ | We're lucky that we have a variety of tabloids to cater for different people, but it does put us in this situation of filter bubbles. |
| 20:09.37 | DrodoEmpire | Yeah that seems in opposition to Canadian culture, which I've observed to be a bit more consensus-based and inclined towards unity |
| 20:09.54 | DrodoEmpire | We're not very tribalistic really |
| 20:10.02 | DanzaDelMondo | You're more chill |
| 20:10.25 | DrodoEmpire | Polite maybe, Australians the laid back ones it seems XD |
| 20:10.32 | DrodoEmpire | *are the more laid back one |
| 20:11.21 | Hachiman | "This Guy Punched A Cougar To Save His Dog's Life" "Why would he punch an older lady" |
| 20:12.08 | DrodoEmpire | hur |
| 20:14.29 | Wormy_ | There's a small town in my county called Ashbourne, it has two factions, the uppers and downers who play a rugby scrum through the streets everyday. This division goes back I think to the years of the Norman invasion, when the original head was a decapitated head. |
| 20:14.44 | Wormy_ | *scrum through the streets every year, sorry |
| 20:15.08 | DrodoEmpire | Oh wow, that's actually really cool |
| 20:18.38 | Hachiman | DanzaDelMondo: http://satwcomic.com/break-the-bars |
| 20:19.22 | Hachiman | DrodoEmpire: https://scontent-amt2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15726962_1229697540457819_1577505362530241597_n.jpg?oh=c23b4be80564741fffc01a3ef8f58fc9&oe=58E0EB6E |
| 20:19.37 | DrodoEmpire | ayyy |
| 20:19.39 | DanzaDelMondo | Hachiman: Ohgod that ending |
| 20:19.54 | DanzaDelMondo | I am not very keen on the Scandinavian prison system |
| 20:19.58 | DanzaDelMondo | Like sure it's kind of cool but |
| 20:20.13 | DanzaDelMondo | I mean seriously there'are people like Brejvik |
| 20:20.19 | DanzaDelMondo | We want these to live in luxury? |
| 20:35.34 | Xho | As far as I care I don't really mind what happens to criminals once they're behind bars |
| 20:35.42 | Xho | Once they're out of the public that's good enough |
| 20:36.19 | Xho | Well maybe not |
| 20:37.06 | Xho | But I don't see a point in torturing mass murderers when the world will pass them by, and 20 years later he'll have little chance of re-intergration unless he's good at it |
| 20:40.37 | Wormy_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:54.58 | Technobliterator | "In a sweeping set of announcements, the United States was also expected to release evidence linking the cyberattacks to computer systems used by Russian intelligence. Taken together, the actions would amount to the strongest American response ever taken to a state-sponsored cyberattack aimed at the United States. |
| 20:54.58 | Technobliterator | " |
| 20:55.07 | Technobliterator | Can they just hurry up and release that evidence then |
| 20:55.09 | Technobliterator | : | |
| 20:55.39 | Wormy_ | Thinking about the earlier discussion, avoiding certain information sources is valid when you have some critical knowledge why its unnecessary, i.e. you know that astrology does't make real predictions; or that a paper published in Nature and not some viral site is less likely to be misunderstood under peer review than by some journalist. With news tabloids its a bit more complicated, since there are narratives and biases involve |
| 20:55.56 | Wormy_ | But I think that yes, some tabloids may be objectively better than others |
| 20:56.02 | Wormy_ | But all have a sloppy record |
| 20:57.44 | Wormy_ | Readers should take a critical attitude to all sources, even Nature. But at least scientific sources are more self-correcting |
| 21:00.03 | Wormy_ | In act that's why journals exist, for others to scrutinise the results |
| 21:08.32 | Ghelae | Wormy_: When it comes to that time keeping thread, I think there are two points to make: a) there is no timeline in the Space Stage, and b) as long as that's true, even if it weren't static, it wouldn't have to obey the laws of thermodynamics and undergo heat death. |
| 21:09.30 | Wormy_ | And Spore certainly isn't a simulation of the laws of Thermodynamics. |
| 21:09.33 | Ghelae | It does make sense that if there *were* a timeline, and people ran it up to hundreds of trillions of years, then the lack of heat death would be conspicuous, but suggesting that's the motivation for anything is hugely speculative. |
| 21:09.51 | Wormy_ | I forgot there was no timeline in the space stage |
| 21:10.23 | Ghelae | Especially when there are better reasons for a lack of timeline. a) The timeline measures the evolution of your species and its society, over thousands and millions of years, while the Space Stage might as well be real time, |
| 21:11.17 | Ghelae | b) Saved games share the same universe but only run when you're playing them, so you could e.g. visit one of your Creature Stage planets in Space Stage, then play the former planet until Space Stage, and millions of years pass there but not in your Space Stage game. |
| 21:11.39 | Ghelae | And I think there was a c) but I've forgotten it. |
| 21:24.32 | *** join/#sporewiki ImpyDroid (~Anders@95.140.92.66) |
| 21:28.26 | *** join/#sporewiki The_Randomness (~chatzilla@2601:441:1:5b80:c8b1:812a:9a2a:38b4) |
| 21:28.26 | *** mode/#sporewiki [+o The_Randomness] by ChanServ |
| 21:28.48 | The_Randomness | Hello |
| 21:28.50 | Wormy_ | http://spore.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:218511#5 given my reply |
| 21:28.54 | Wormy_ | hi |
| 21:35.12 | Ghelae | Hi |
| 21:41.23 | Ghelae | Yeah, Wormy, that reply should be complete enough. |
| 21:51.40 | ImpyDroid | kk |
| 22:08.32 | Xho | So I was playing Skyrim earlier |
| 22:08.44 | Xho | A random Dark Elf came out and attacked me, killed him no problem |
| 22:08.53 | Xho | All of a sudden a Legendary Dragon comes out of nowhere |
| 22:09.09 | Xho | This game is good with the surprise attacks |
| 22:09.32 | Wormy_ | like Fallout games |
| 22:09.49 | Wormy_ | the moments that are too quiet are scariest |
| 22:10.28 | Xho | It was annoying because the Legendary Dragon is at least 15 levels higher than me |
| 22:10.40 | Xho | I'm level 60-something and a Legendary Dragon is 78+ |
| 22:13.35 | Xho | The only thing about Skyrim is that Alduin is very underwhelming |
| 22:16.28 | Wormy_ | I had a tougher fight against this skeleton lord thing ontop of a mountain |
| 22:17.06 | Xho | Wasn't a Dragon Priest was it |
| 22:17.23 | Xho | http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_Priest |
| 22:17.31 | Xho | I've never come across a tough Skeleton in Skyrim |
| 22:17.42 | Wormy_ | I think so, yes |
| 22:18.20 | Xho | http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Krosis It was probably this one you fought |
| 22:18.59 | Wormy_ | Yeah, that was the one |
| 22:19.28 | Wormy_ | Took me all my potions and food to defeat it |
| 22:21.54 | Hachiman | I like how the Dragon Priests are more difficult than the dragons |
| 22:33.35 | Monet | Back. |
| 22:35.45 | Wormy_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:39.05 | *** join/#sporewiki drom (~drom@unaffiliated/drom) |
| 22:39.09 | drom | ImpyDroid: http://i.imgur.com/t6ek2m8.jpg |
| 22:39.12 | drom | Hello again |
| 22:49.19 | ImpyDroid | Hu |
| 22:49.39 | ImpyDroid | Xho: https://vk.com/photo-58385845_456240062 I like this political spectrum map |
| 22:54.56 | drom | Seems about right |
| 22:55.47 | *** join/#sporewiki Liquiid_Ink (79d0cd9d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.208.205.157) |
| 23:05.54 | ImpyDroid | Liquiid_Ink Wormy_: http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/conworld/images/a/a7/UnitedKingdomSocialistFlag.png/revision/latest?cb=20140516194205 Not sure if cool or sinister |
| 23:06.46 | Liquiid_Ink | Very cool |
| 23:09.37 | Wormy_ | still missing Wales |
| 23:09.52 | Wormy_ | they could have at least symbolised leeks |
| 23:11.44 | ImpyDroid | Liquid_Ink: http://orig10.deviantart.net/645d/f/2013/290/d/3/flag_of_the_australian_socialist_republic_by_veovis523-d6qvk5j.png Found your national flag |
| 23:14.21 | Liquiid_Ink | Oh hell yeah |
| 23:14.54 | Liquiid_Ink | Let's decorate the halls of parliament with the viscera of Turnbull and Hanson and all their ilk |
| 23:16.28 | drom | Hachiman ImpyDroid: http://i.imgur.com/0DSkjk9.jpg |
| 23:16.38 | Hachiman | olol |
| 23:28.49 | *** join/#sporewiki The_Randomness (~chatzilla@2601:441:1:5b80:185b:e317:cbc1:e8e6) |
| 23:28.49 | *** mode/#sporewiki [+o The_Randomness] by ChanServ |
| 23:50.50 | drom | Awh. He is gone |
| 23:51.22 | drom | Anyway. This is interesting. http://i.imgur.com/WA4HJSA.png |
