| 00:03.05 | Wormy_ | I kind of like it, but then I remember it was used in the revolution war against us, and we lost |
| 00:04.17 | Wormy_ | not that the colonies were nearly as productive as some of the others in terms of pricey goods |
| 00:04.45 | drom | ImpyDroid: When you go too far into something no one dares to touch. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/213704629513355264/261619096326504448/Dick_Meme_Collage.png |
| 00:06.00 | tcm | http://spore.wikia.com/wiki/User:The_Collective_Mind/Motive added a "military" and "relations" tab, wondering if they need expanding |
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| 01:25.51 | GD12 | ohai |
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| 02:49.55 | Tek0516 | Just saw Rogue One. :D |
| 02:54.05 | DrodoAway | Oh nice |
| 03:07.01 | Monet | Well just managed to flatten Sweden in ETW almost |
| 03:07.14 | Monet | The Swedish king is currently hiding in Finland though. |
| 03:09.14 | Monet | As of my latest save he's currently worried about the Russo-Polish-Prussian alliance I've built against him. |
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| 07:11.33 | The_Randomness | brb |
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| 10:12.52 | NeonPanda | hi |
| 10:12.57 | Hachiman | Hello |
| 10:14.26 | Liquid_Ink | Hey |
| 10:16.01 | ImpyDroid | Liquid_Ink: https://2ch.hk/po/src/19955200/14824733731310.jpg Fucking Germans |
| 10:18.47 | Liquid_Ink | It's capitalism's fault, really |
| 10:19.22 | Liquid_Ink | Germany wouldn't be like this if they didn't subscribe to an ideology of domination |
| 10:19.37 | Liquid_Ink | A phrase which could easily apply to any other country |
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| 11:10.59 | Ghelae | Hello. |
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| 11:39.30 | Wormy_ | hi |
| 11:41.56 | Ghelae | Hello. |
| 12:18.56 | Wormy_ | http://imgur.com/gallery/BmYYJ |
| 12:22.27 | Wormy_ | that's one way to do it http://imgur.com/gallery/tEVnm |
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| 13:59.46 | Wormy_ | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txzOIGulUIQ |
| 14:03.24 | Tek0516 | Hello |
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| 14:26.47 | Jepardi | Hi |
| 15:16.39 | Ghelae | Wormy_: I've started the rewrite. http://spore.wikia.com/wiki/SporeWiki:Fiction_Universe/Locations/Omniverse I don't know if you want to keep any words like "manifoldverse" and "xenoverse". |
| 15:18.03 | Wormy_ | We could keep the manifold, as I used that in the Legacy mythos |
| 15:18.37 | Ghelae | "Manifoldverse" could mean the multiverse of branes, while "Multiverse" refers only to the multiverse within a single brane. |
| 15:19.02 | Wormy_ | Yeah, that makes sense |
| 15:20.25 | *** join/#sporewiki Xho (97e6a92b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.151.230.169.43) |
| 15:20.40 | Ghelae | Hello. |
| 15:20.57 | Xho | Afternoon |
| 15:22.45 | Monet | Afternoon |
| 15:22.51 | OluapPlayer | Hi |
| 15:25.22 | Hachiman | Afternoon |
| 15:27.33 | Wormy_ | Afternoon |
| 15:28.11 | Xho | Hello. |
| 15:28.14 | Xho | ahah perfect pattern |
| 15:28.42 | Wormy_ | oi oi |
| 15:31.07 | Ghelae | Now I need to walk the dogs, and when I get back I shall finish trying to make sense of Xho's cosmology of the Chaos planes so I can write something about them on the Omniverse page. |
| 15:31.21 | Xho | gud luk |
| 15:33.08 | Wormy_ | they are beyond logic and reason |
| 15:36.16 | Wormy_ | though plenty of modes of human thought like zen paradoxes and coincidentia oppositorum live beyond those domains |
| 15:37.25 | Wormy_ | the aim of the game being to transcend [un-ask] the duality |
| 15:44.40 | Wormy_ | So'd I'd approach them in a less... Logical sense as the rest of the omniverse. A challenge. |
| 15:52.39 | Monet | Challenge is good |
| 15:53.36 | Wormy_ | I'd attempt turning it into a philosophical description, unasking the duality presented on the page by having a logical arrangement of rational and supernatural planes |
| 15:54.28 | Wormy_ | Or the appearance of a duality present between both. |
| 16:11.23 | Ghel | I've figured out some of it. But I've also decided the Essence page needs a table like on the Source page, so that will likely come first. |
| 16:24.20 | Hachiman | "Elephant Lets Out Absolutely Savage Fart On Mate's Head" |
| 16:25.04 | OluapPlayer | as opposed from a tame fart |
| 16:26.33 | Hachiman | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18ilAoVaJFk The fucking sound of it |
| 16:27.59 | OluapPlayer | Fucking mounted on top of her fucking head |
| 16:28.19 | OluapPlayer | He's doing it out of revenge for getting pushed off the little dirt mound |
| 16:28.55 | Hachiman | The thought of elephants climbing dirt mounds is so weird to me |
| 16:29.22 | Hachiman | I never took adult elephants for being playful creatures and I thought that they essentially crush whatever they step on near-completely |
| 16:33.51 | Wormy_ | The dirt mound will simply compact. And most animals play, even insects. Its a way of learning. |
| 16:34.10 | OluapPlayer | I've never heard of insects playing |
| 16:34.46 | Wormy_ | There's a paper somewhere, where scientists think they observe bee larvae playing the waggle dance or something. |
| 16:35.41 | Wormy_ | They might not be consciously choosing to play, but play probably emerged in evolution from such mimicked learning |
| 16:42.10 | Monet | It sounds odd but it's possible |
| 16:42.51 | Wormy_ | I don't think it was bees, but a wasp. Wish I could find it now |
| 16:43.11 | OluapPlayer | It was practicing its hatred for all living beings |
| 16:44.35 | Wormy_ | supermarket recalls chocolate Santas after batteries found inside https://twitter.com/i/moments/812286918767611904 |
| 16:45.01 | OluapPlayer | shocking chocolate |
| 16:49.13 | Tek0516 | http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/the-chosen-ones |
| 16:50.39 | *** join/#sporewiki Imperios (~Imperios@95.140.92.156) |
| 16:55.59 | Ghel | Xho: Is http://spore.wikia.com/wiki/Fiction:Rethex%27Kalik/Realm_of_Forget still canon? The Samut'angar page describes them as controlling an "icy domain within Inferno" instead. |
| 16:58.25 | Wormy_ | Looks like an old version of Insomnia |
| 16:58.54 | Wormy_ | Which Xho forgot to have deleted :doooooooooooooooooh: |
| 16:59.12 | OluapPlayer | Realm of Forget and Insomnia are separate locations |
| 17:00.11 | Wormy_ | Insomnia describes the screenshot exactly |
| 17:00.23 | Ghel | It's definitely different to Insomnia (i.e. floating vegetated islands), although there are visual similarities. |
| 17:00.38 | Ghel | I put those brackets after the wrong clause. |
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| 17:16.22 | Wormy_ | Perhaps the universes should be described as stories? The Multiverse can be thought of as a great jumble pile of events, those that have internal consistency appear like histories to their inhabitants. Such lawful orders could fall under a metaphysical plane, that is Arx |
| 17:17.23 | Wormy_ | and do similar things with other types of universes arranged by metaphysical planes |
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| 17:19.40 | Ghel | I think it all works. It's not clear how the different planes are arranged - in some, like Insomnia and Tangent, it appears that you can see other realms in some form - but that's not much of a problem. |
| 17:34.14 | Ghel | Wormy_: http://spore.wikia.com/wiki/SporeWiki:Fiction_Universe/Locations/Omniverse It's ended up being a lot shorter than I expected. Mainly because I removed the lists of inhabitants, travellers and locations. But there's still probably other things to add (or re-add). |
| 17:47.20 | Wormy_ | It looks pretty good to me. Describes the Omniverse and related planes that can be described spatially, omits the rest of Chaos like Equilibrium which are supposed to be beyond concept |
| 17:58.25 | Wormy_ | Ghel: Is the concept of a non-spacetime dimension a false assumption? Are all mathematical spaces defined as dimensions with points specified by coordinates, where we cannot help but think of space (common-sense term). I've come across other mathematical spaces, like momentum space, dynamical spaces with more than just positions and velocities, and can there be spaces (mathematical term) without positions? |
| 17:58.52 | Wormy_ | or without spatial positions |
| 17:59.31 | Wormy_ | some theories for example propose spacetime emerges out of something-else |
| 18:00.34 | Wormy_ | how will we describe such a mathematical entity |
| 18:00.37 | Ghel | I would say the definition of spacetime, as distinct from other spaces, is that it has the property of locality, i.e. states within it can interact with each other directly only when at the same point. |
| 18:01.09 | Ghel | Other spaces may be equally "real", but don't match up with our ordinary idea of "space", hence we think of them as being abstract. |
| 18:01.39 | Ghel | Momentum space is the same space as spacetime / position space, just looked at in a different way when locality isn't so important. |
| 18:03.19 | Wormy_ | Hm, like the dualities explored in physics |
| 18:03.35 | Ghel | So a non-spacetime dimension is certainly a realistic concept. It's just not very applicable for describing locations. |
| 18:04.22 | Ghel | http://spore.wikia.com/wiki/Fiction:Essence#Celestial_and_Chaotic - here's that table I mentioned. |
| 18:06.53 | Ghel | I might add in pictures to make it look bigger like the Source table. |
| 18:09.33 | Wormy_ | Wikipedia tells me you can even have mathematical spaces that "admit no concept of dimension at all". So yeah, one has to be careful with the semantics as both can be reasoned |
| 18:09.42 | Ghel | Changed my mind on the images; that makes it too big. |
| 18:11.31 | Ghel | It wouldn't suprise me that you could have spaces without dimensions, although they'd be even less useful for describing the omniverse. |
| 18:12.06 | Ghel | Spaces that aren't vector spaces, I assume. |
| 18:13.33 | Ghel | The Omniverse is described by metric spaces, which are a subset of normed spaces, in turn a subset of inner product spaces, and they're a type of vector space. So you can imagine there are a lot of types of mathematical structure that are called "spaces" but aren't space-like at all. |
| 18:15.03 | Ghel | Inner product and normed spaces should be the other way around there, for what little it matters. |
| 18:15.15 | Wormy_ | I wonder if these non-spacetime dimensions are what Hans Moravec and Stephen Baxter were thinking with their orthogonal measures of complexity, by measuring say, frequency. |
| 18:15.50 | Ghel | Frequency is to time what momentum is to position. |
| 18:15.59 | *** join/#sporewiki Luxor (4e580783@gateway/web/freenode/ip.78.88.7.131) |
| 18:16.06 | Luxor | ay |
| 18:16.11 | Ghel | Hello. |
| 18:16.16 | Luxor | Anyone else already watched Rogue One? |
| 18:16.20 | Wormy_ | Not yet! |
| 18:16.25 | Luxor | Won't spoil then |
| 18:17.14 | Ghel | The simplest example of a non-spacetime dimension is the number line (and more generally, the complex plane etc.) |
| 18:17.53 | Luxor | e^pi*i + 1 = 0 |
| 18:18.19 | Luxor | I actually got that right. |
| 18:18.26 | Wormy_ | I was thinking about that, we only imagine them as in space as it makes intuitive sense, but you can simply reason with them as numbers |
| 18:18.27 | Ghel | ~give Luxor a pie |
| 18:18.27 | infobot | ACTION gives Luxor a home-baked cherry pie with ice cream on the side |
| 18:19.22 | Luxor | Correct me if I'm wrong, but afaik wormhole travel time can be distorted resulting in century-long voyage which was meant to take for example 2 minutes. |
| 18:23.20 | Ghel | If you mean a century passes inside while two minutes pass outside, I don't think so. If you mean wormholes might not be shortcuts but instead be, well, longcuts, that's right. |
| 18:23.45 | Luxor | I meant the 2nd one. |
| 18:24.14 | Luxor | Alright, so my plans for URN seem to be safe. |
| 18:24.18 | Luxor | ...for now perhaps. |
| 18:25.49 | Wormy_ | I guess too, the computable logical operations have a non-spacetime dimension or space: AND, OR, NOT etc. There are proven mathematical operations that could never be computed, according to David Deutsch, because of physical limits |
| 18:27.18 | Wormy_ | maybe there's universes where AND, OR, NOT are uncomputable |
| 18:28.13 | Wormy_ | Oh gosh and then there are operations involved with supernaturals. I'm yet to find any proposed physical process using supernatural numbers |
| 18:30.13 | Wormy_ | Ghel: Maybe we should discuss the relation of space, spacetime and dimensions on the Omniverse page. Then it would possible to include the mental and virtual planes |
| 18:32.26 | Wormy_ | And if mental spaces have a particular location, it'd be possible for multiple beings to visit the same space (i.e. Kilnok and Master Kroc in Nether Plane) |
| 18:33.26 | Ghel | Since it was the first of the pages to be rewritten, there is a description on what a space is on the Time page. |
| 18:34.14 | Ghel | Virtual and mental spaces might require some other explanation, though. |
| 18:34.35 | Ghel | They can act like spacetime by having locality, but this isn't an intrinsic property of them. |
| 18:35.12 | Ghel | And you can describe positions within them, but these have a relationship to the positions and interactions of particles in realspace. |
| 18:36.06 | Ghel | So you could describe them as emergent dimensions (distinct from the concept of spacetime being emergent), I guess. |
| 18:36.59 | Wormy_ | What I mean is, you can abstract spaces that map the fitness landscape, and one can take that idea further and map the space of possible thoughts, or even possible selves. And there's be positions based on how closely individual species, people, thoughts, map onto these spaces |
| 18:38.28 | Wormy_ | I suppose by... likeness |
| 18:40.30 | Wormy_ | Finding likeness might be like, measuring the regularities against random differences between two physical objects, whether they be butterflies or sentences, or minds |
| 18:42.17 | Ghel | Sure. You can come up with a space for anything. |
| 18:42.21 | Wormy_ | (this argument is why I think a sufficiently detailed copy of you brought to the future will transfer your conscious sense of continuity) |
| 18:43.12 | Luxor | I don't want to interrupt, however recently I've been thinking about implementing satellite galaxies to the FU, as these are not really exploited in any way. |
| 18:43.13 | Wormy_ | (it may not even need to be exact, since there's no reason to think we;re dealing with binary things) |
| 18:44.31 | Wormy_ | I'm just trying to imagine these planes as being part of the same omniverse |
| 18:45.22 | Wormy_ | Luxor: There's a few major satellite galaxies |
| 18:45.32 | Ghel | We do have some satellite galaxies used, although mostly fictional artificial ones. |
| 18:46.07 | Wormy_ | The Quadrantia cluster, I believe is a cluster of small dwarf galaxies |
| 18:46.12 | Luxor | Well, I'm not sure about other galaxies, but Pinwheel galaxy (Cyrannus) has several satellite galaxies. |
| 18:46.19 | Ghel | The problem with real satellites - not a lethal problem, but something to take into account - is their lower metallicity, and hence lower proportions of rocky and life-bearing planets. |
| 18:46.28 | Ghel | Yes, Cyrannus has the Quadrants and Cyranai. |
| 18:46.32 | Wormy_ | There's also the Large and Small Magellanic Clouds |
| 18:47.14 | Wormy_ | http://spore.wikia.com/wiki/Fiction:Large_Magellanic_Cloud#Characteristics |
| 18:47.28 | Ghel | The Girdo Galaxy was also an artificial Milky Way satellite, like the Quadrants for Cyrannus. |
| 18:48.25 | Ghel | But yes. Satellite galaxies aren't used very much, and this is justified, but they aren't something that needs to be avoided. |
| 18:49.17 | Luxor | I'm interested in expanding these because such one could become 'new' home for URN. There's little of space left in Cyrannus, so I thought such an action would remove many of the problems I've already faced and I'll proapbly face when expanding my fiction. |
| 18:49.54 | Luxor | Still waiting for response from Cyr though. |
| 18:52.00 | Charles_Murray | test |
| 18:54.29 | Ghel | ~give Charles_Murray a pie |
| 18:54.29 | infobot | ACTION gives Charles_Murray a home-baked pumpkin pie with whipped cream on top |
| 18:54.40 | Charles_Murray | :D |
| 18:55.50 | Ghel | Luxor: I did see your message on Cyr's wall. Looking at the map, I can see why you'd think there's little space left, but there's certainly more than a typical satellite galaxy would give you. |
| 18:59.21 | Luxor | Basing on my fiction, I want to expand the history in the following way: URN exiles arrive to the 'Fism minor', expand to 'Fism major', soon establishing bases in the main galaxy itself. |
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| 19:10.02 | The_Randomness | ok, clearly I need to fix some things |
| 19:11.59 | *** mode/#sporewiki [+o The_Randomness] by ChanServ |
| 19:22.53 | *** join/#sporewiki dino82_ (d45c4811@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.92.72.17) |
| 19:24.08 | dino82_ | hi |
| 19:35.03 | OluapPlayer | DanzaDelMondo Monet: http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/042/847/4d4.jpg remove chaos |
| 19:35.45 | Monet | heh |
| 19:46.07 | OluapPlayer | I've been wondering |
| 19:46.26 | *** join/#sporewiki Cyrannian (uid97882@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dqxdhdmhfyeqpbhq) |
| 19:46.26 | *** mode/#sporewiki [+o Cyrannian] by ChanServ |
| 19:46.31 | OluapPlayer | Birds and bats evolved wings out of their forelimbs |
| 19:46.52 | OluapPlayer | Did insect wings have this sort of origin? |
| 19:46.56 | dino82_ | Hi |
| 19:47.04 | OluapPlayer | ~destroy Cyrannian |
| 19:47.05 | infobot | no |
| 19:47.06 | Cyrannian | Hai |
| 19:47.09 | Cyrannian | ~glomp |
| 19:47.14 | Cyrannian | ~glomp OluapPlayer |
| 19:47.14 | infobot | ACTION becomes fully animated as her eyes squint in an upside-down-U formation, gets a running start and tackle-glomps OluapPlayer |
| 19:47.41 | Monet | Interesting question but given insect wings tend to connect in the same area of the body as the legs, it's probably |
| 19:47.49 | Monet | probable* |
| 19:51.53 | OluapPlayer | You can see how wings are essentially handless arms when you take out the feathers/membranes/whatever |
| 19:52.01 | OluapPlayer | Insect wings don't look like their other limbs |
| 19:53.47 | Monet | That could correlate with why insect wings are attached to the top, while mammal wings are attached to where the arm usually is. |
| 19:58.10 | Monet | But that's the interesting thing about insects: They're simpler and their life cycles are much shorter, mutations come faster |
| 19:58.48 | Monet | Their genetics are also possibly similar, I'm reading that several species of dragonfly for instance only have 11-15 chromosomal pairs |
| 19:59.25 | Monet | A fruit fly has only four. |
| 19:59.27 | Ghel | IIRC insect wings come from modified gills. They certainly have a more gill-like structure than any trace of arthropod leg. |
| 19:59.46 | OluapPlayer | I got curious while reading about convergent evolution |
| 20:00.35 | Monet | When you look at wings, insect wings are very different compared to other animals |
| 20:01.24 | OluapPlayer | Hyenas are genetically closer to felines but look and act more like canines |
| 20:01.44 | Monet | Usually one "bone" blood vessel that supports a membrane so thin you can see the rigid blood vessels. |
| 20:08.33 | Ghel | Wikipedia's summary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insect_wing#Evolution tl;dr: we don't know and it's weird |
| 20:08.47 | OluapPlayer | I can agree with that |
| 20:09.30 | Ghel | Apparently insect wings do involve leg genes, but they seem to have been recruited for use in other structures to make wings, rather than wings being modified from legs. |
| 20:10.37 | OluapPlayer | I remember once seeing a picture of what humans would look like if they had evolved wings in the style of bats. it was ridiculous and slightly terrifying |
| 20:10.48 | OluapPlayer | And wouldn't work anyway since humans are too heavy to fly |
| 20:12.11 | Monet | Like how we'd all have massive pecs? |
| 20:12.37 | OluapPlayer | Bat wings are essentially hands with giant membranes between each finger |
| 20:12.43 | OluapPlayer | Imagine that but as a human hand |
| 20:13.04 | OluapPlayer | ick |
| 20:15.24 | Monet | Really really long fingers |
| 20:15.57 | OluapPlayer | Long fingers are one easy way of achieving ew |
| 20:16.07 | OluapPlayer | |Especially if they're skinny bony fingers |
| 20:16.52 | Ghel | Like aye-ayes? |
| 20:16.59 | OluapPlayer | Yes |
| 20:17.16 | OluapPlayer | Aye-ayes in general look like something that got road-killed but came back to life |
| 20:17.47 | OluapPlayer | Huge staring eyes, mangled fur and giant poking fingers |
| 20:23.25 | OluapPlayer | Now I found a species of bird which's born with claws on their wings, which eventually disappear as it reaches adulthood |
| 20:23.38 | OluapPlayer | >The hoatzin (Opisthocomus hoazin), also known as the stinkbird |
| 20:23.40 | OluapPlayer | #rude |
| 20:27.02 | Monet | Are those claws used for breaking out of the eggshell, perchance? |
| 20:27.36 | OluapPlayer | It uses them to climb on trees before it can fly |
| 20:28.40 | Monet | THat works too |
| 20:33.17 | *** join/#sporewiki Imperios (~Imperios@95.140.92.156) |
| 20:33.37 | *** join/#sporewiki Imperios (~Imperios@95.140.92.156) |
| 20:33.42 | Cyrannian | OluapPlayer: http://spore.wikia.com/wiki/Captain:Munalur http://spore.wikia.com/wiki/Captain:Arasah-Nui http://spore.wikia.com/wiki/Captain:Alinor_Nanuq - c new guise |
| 20:33.51 | OluapPlayer | noh |
| 20:33.58 | Cyrannian | C |
| 20:37.32 | OluapPlayer | I had seen Munalur earlier. Good job |
| 20:37.55 | Cyrannian | danke |
| 20:38.45 | Tek0516 | http://spore.wikia.com/wiki/Fiction:Roreinian_Civil_War#The_Amazonas_Revolt New chapter |
| 20:46.57 | dino82_ | Oh Amazona |
| 20:48.26 | dino82_ | undercover agent in imperial navy: http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/spore/images/b/bc/ZahraRossImpLtCmdrLarge.png/revision/latest?cb=20161223202256 |
| 20:50.37 | Cyrannian | Yey, nice work |
| 20:56.34 | Wormy_ | Just got Kerbal Space Program |
| 20:56.44 | Wormy_ | £10.19 on Steam sale |
| 21:00.34 | Imperios | Xho: https://68.media.tumblr.com/65dbe124c7637a0ddc24f376caa417af/tumblr_messaging_oilf3iq5Xt1s0el98_1280.jpg The Russian Tea Party |
| 21:04.43 | *** join/#sporewiki tcm (631ea9f7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.99.30.169.247) |
| 21:09.11 | Wormy_ | http://imgur.com/gallery/CdJuD |
| 21:15.45 | *** join/#sporewiki dino82_ (d45c4811@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.92.72.17) |
| 21:38.26 | Tek0516 | Wormy_: Wait, you never played KSP? :O |
| 21:39.04 | Wormy_ | I've been waiting a long time for it to come down in the Steam sale, never quite satisfied although I have jovered over the button a few occasions |
| 21:39.15 | Wormy_ | £10 I can't resist |
| 21:39.26 | Wormy_ | *hovered |
| 21:40.10 | Wormy_ | So I've kept nearly buying it |
| 21:40.28 | Wormy_ | However, how much time I actually get to play these games now is another story |
| 21:42.12 | DrodoEmpire | https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15590644_665243600316987_4202184131227495220_n.jpg?oh=51353a0d782555e1fff5122d15dc5e53&oe=58EC877D |
| 22:04.37 | Imperios | Monet Xho OluapPlayer: http://orig05.deviantart.net/926c/f/2012/280/9/a/soviet_marine_by_thetass-d5h0zdm.jpg |
| 22:05.32 | OluapPlayer | in soviet russia, head is huge and body is not |
| 22:08.55 | Wormy_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:22.07 | Xho | AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA |
| 22:23.06 | Xho | Ghel: A few hours late but I've been rethinking the Realm of Forget |
| 22:23.22 | Xho | Right now I'm thinking it's the grey area between Inferno and Insomnia |
| 22:25.26 | *** join/#sporewiki Liquid_Ink (79d0cd9d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.208.205.157) |
| 22:32.43 | dino82_ | bye bye |
| 22:34.54 | Xho | Also the planes definition is a little off |
| 22:35.05 | Xho | Erratsactum, Inferno and Shard are also planes of Chaos |
| 22:35.22 | Xho | Although if you mean it's essence specific |
| 22:37.47 | Xho | Technically speaking the Godforms for Life and Death Energy are Krathazhrukhal and Angazhar respectively but I don't know how absolute the term is |
| 22:38.16 | DrodoEmpire | Hm |
| 22:38.44 | Xho | If you're talking about progenitors of the Essentials, then those two |
| 22:39.31 | Xho | Krath created the Vi'Navitum and Angazhar corrupted some/half of them into the Xi'Arazulha because he's a massive dick |
| 22:43.11 | tcm | how many barrels should i put on this spaceship gun |
| 22:43.35 | tcm | my head says 2 but my brain says 3 because you can never go wrong with more dakka |
| 22:43.42 | tcm | my heart says 3 |
| 22:43.53 | DrodoEmpire | Well... |
| 22:43.56 | DrodoEmpire | What sort of gun is it? |
| 22:44.18 | tcm | big ship-to-ship kind |
| 22:44.30 | tcm | naval gun |
| 22:44.44 | DrodoEmpire | Ehh, maybe three, especially if its on a turret or something |
| 22:44.52 | DrodoEmpire | Depends on the calibre, and what it fires though |
| 22:45.04 | DrodoEmpire | You *can* go wrong with more dakka, after all |
| 22:45.04 | DrodoEmpire | :p |
| 22:45.24 | *** join/#sporewiki Charles_Bot (uid94017@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ivvwgjylkzmcrdus) |
| 22:45.47 | tcm | i'll go with two, then |
| 22:46.10 | Tek0516 | Sometimes one really big blast is better than several smaller ones. :P |
| 22:46.19 | Tek0516 | Hey Charles |
| 22:57.32 | *** join/#sporewiki NeonPanda (65b3507e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.101.179.80.126) |
| 22:59.39 | NeonPanda | hi all |
| 22:59.53 | Liquid_Ink | Hey |
| 23:00.02 | Ghel | Hello. |
| 23:00.45 | Ghel | Xho: Yeah; the whole godform thing isn't something where there's an obvious unique identification. Progenitor of the Essentials does make sense, but then so does the most powerful being of that Essence, and since they're not the same for Life and Death Energies I figured you might want to decide. |
| 23:02.20 | Xho | The fact that Angazhar is the godform of three essences is probably a bit much but there's no other definition for Death and Demonic |
| 23:02.29 | Xho | Angazhar's responsible for both of those coming into being |
| 23:03.02 | Xho | As for the Demonic Energy Essentials, I put Samut'angar |
| 23:03.23 | Ghel | The alternative for Death would have been Maktanshatin, but I wasn't sure about that. And I won't disagree with specifying the Samut'angar as the Demonic Essentials. |
| 23:03.57 | Xho | Vi'Navitum and Xi'Arazulha are sort of outliers in terms of the internal Essential hierarchy |
| 23:04.55 | Xho | Maktanshatin and Vi'Naherza (or Dravasavarin if you want to get technical) are essentially the hierarchs of their kind |
| 23:05.24 | Ghel | As for the locating of the planes of Chaos, this was one thing I wasn't sure about. One the one hand, your description can sometimes seem to imply that a lot of them are in the same 3D space, i.e. Inferno is separated from the rest of Chaos by the Styx, and even now you say that Inferno and Insomnia have the Realm of Forget *between* them. |
| 23:05.42 | Xho | Welcome to Chaos, I'll be your guide |
| 23:06.15 | Xho | In truth there's no telling what's what |
| 23:06.17 | Wormy_ | Have a fun trip |
| 23:06.22 | Ghel | For the purposes of writing stuff up, I assumed that's just a nice way of visualising it for mortal minds. |
| 23:07.01 | Xho | The best way to visualise is if all the planes are stacked on top of one another and the Realm of Forget is the area between the bottom of Insomnia and the ceiling of Inferno |
| 23:07.15 | Xho | Although the actual definition is probably nowhere near that |
| 23:07.56 | Xho | Realm of Forget could also be thought of as a smaller domain within Insomnia whilst Inferno is a smaller domain within Tangent |
| 23:08.08 | Xho | It's all up to interpretation really |
| 23:09.00 | Xho | Realm of Forget could also be the region between a tear of Insomnia and Tangent where Inferno also falls into it |
| 23:09.10 | Xho | And all the realms could be separate |
| 23:09.30 | Xho | The Xhodocto don't state what's what and their denizens aren't too sure either |
| 23:09.43 | Ghel | So it's deliberately ambiguous? |
| 23:09.46 | Xho | Yes |
| 23:09.56 | Ghel | Okay then. |
| 23:10.11 | Xho | I suppose the best way to describe it is that all of the Chaos Planes share one contiguous space |
| 23:10.24 | Xho | Although what order to determine which is which is impossible to agree upon |
| 23:10.41 | Xho | Or how large, dense or sparse this space is |
| 23:11.42 | Ghel | That would be like the Atlantica Realms, which are all described seperately but clearly spatially connected, e.g. the Paradise Realm is next to the Reflective Realm and both are above the Chaos Realm. |
| 23:11.58 | Xho | Well not that concrete |
| 23:12.17 | Ghel | No, not quite. |
| 23:12.24 | Xho | There's no real telling whether these realms are finite or infinite, so there's no telling as to whether these realms can be next or above each other |
| 23:12.29 | Wormy_ | I'm reminded of the days when we played Minecraft. Lots of biomes, continents and islands that fell into each other, and user's borders multiply connected |
| 23:12.46 | Xho | Inferno is described as being somewhat finite but as to what lies beyond it |
| 23:13.25 | Xho | You also have the issue as to what Equilibrium is |
| 23:14.06 | Wormy_ | Yeah, I wondered about that. The description appears to indicate it is beyond description, so I assumed that's why Ghel didn't list it as part of the Omniverse |
| 23:14.08 | Xho | Equilibrium is described as both a Chaos Plane and a totally metaphysical absence of what Chaos and all the dissident expressions of order is |
| 23:15.02 | Xho | Chaos is beyond maths and logic, Equilibrium is either beyond or underneath Chaos depending just exactly what it is |
| 23:15.31 | Wormy_ | But it sounds to that that the Omniverse is a place where maths and logic do work |
| 23:15.36 | Ghel | I haven't explicitly listed many of the planes on the Omniverse page. Although for Equilibrium, yes, if you're getting to the point where the very concept of space becomes non-useful then you probably shouldn't consider it part of the Omniverse. |
| 23:15.38 | Wormy_ | *a place in Chaos |
| 23:15.53 | Ghel | Or above it or below it somewhere slightly to the left or anything spatially comparable to it. |
| 23:16.00 | Xho | That's a probable definition of it |
| 23:16.51 | Ghel | As for the other Chaos realms, they're still describable even if they're fairly strange. |
| 23:17.01 | Wormy_ | But then, what about non-spacetime dimensions? Chaos probably contains other mathematical non-spacetime dimesions as well |
| 23:17.54 | Xho | That's kind of where the Chaos Planes fall into |
| 23:18.14 | Ghel | Chaos in the more general sense seems to be a broader concept than Chaos as in a space where these planes are located. |
| 23:18.17 | Xho | A part on the Chaos Planes page says that the Chaos Planes has its own set of spacetime dimensions that aren't really spacetime dimensions |
| 23:18.37 | Xho | Chaos Energy* |
| 23:19.05 | Wormy_ | We could make some relational diagrams |
| 23:19.07 | Xho | As in, you're working in an exceptionally basic degree of the Xhodocto's own independents workings |
| 23:19.47 | Xho | Because they're the Xhodocto there's a near enough 100% chance that there are realms well beyond what can be perceived |
| 23:20.04 | Xho | The Xhodocto start working in frameworks where spacetime is childs play |
| 23:20.48 | Xho | Either that or the Chaos Planes that are known have so many layers that the bizarre nature that is described of them is layer 1 |
| 23:21.16 | Xho | Although the natures of the realms can't be answered as such |
| 23:21.19 | Xho | Only questioned |
| 23:21.58 | Xho | The fact that the Chaos Planes have their own sets of rules and designs utterly independent of the 'omniverse' as we know it must mean there's mechanics |
| 23:22.02 | Xho | And those mechanics have mechanics |
| 23:22.28 | Xho | You can see the rules but understanding those rules is an entirely different ballpark and that's where the Xhodocto's domain starts coming into play |
| 23:23.00 | Wormy_ | I think its perfectly fine for unknowable, supernatural realms to operate with supernatural rules. Otherwise you have the premise of a duality |
| 23:23.03 | *** join/#sporewiki Rock_From_Hell (43b553e0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.181.83.224) |
| 23:23.45 | Xho | I could do a diagram of Chaos but I don't know how complex it would be |
| 23:23.51 | Xho | Probably not that complex |
| 23:24.36 | Xho | But Ghel was right in saying that Chaos as a concept and Chaos as a hypothetical domain are two independent modes of thought |
| 23:25.49 | Xho | The hypothetical domain is a lot easier to explain but even then it's causing different viewpoints from other users |
| 23:25.52 | Ghel | So it would be reasonable to talk about some "Chaos Realm" that is a part of the omniverse with some Xhodocto wierdness thrown in. |
| 23:25.55 | Wormy_ | premise of a duality - the apparent contradiction of a possible worlds with rules and a possible world without rules - perhaps that second world does in fact have some unknowable rules |
| 23:26.22 | Xho | Wormy_: That's the idea |
| 23:26.41 | Xho | Although the Xhodocto's framework goes a few steps behind the unknowable rules |
| 23:27.11 | Xho | They would go into infinitely meticulous detail as to how these rules are made with equally infinite and meticulously unknowable sub-rules |
| 23:27.21 | Wormy_ | So the Xhodocto are not "fuk u we'e impossible but don't care', they are 'fuk u we're impossible but we work within ways you can't understand' |
| 23:27.34 | Xho | Kind of both |
| 23:27.43 | Xho | Depends on what Xhodocto you're talking it |
| 23:27.44 | Xho | to |
| 23:27.56 | Xho | Santorakh is the former, Krath is the latter |
| 23:27.59 | Wormy_ | Wel, we know they like being ambigious |
| 23:28.18 | Wormy_ | That's one knowable rule about them |
| 23:28.36 | Xho | Indeed |
| 23:28.40 | Wormy_ | I think I was trying to talk this earlier before Ghel went on his walk |
| 23:28.46 | Wormy_ | *about this earlier |
| 23:28.50 | Xho | The Xhodocto we perceive is the 'Layer 1' of themselves |
| 23:29.14 | Wormy_ | I think I get the Xhodocto a bit more now (out-of-universe) |
| 23:30.12 | Xho | And that goes straight from normal lifeforms straight to the Ultraterrestrials and Essentials in-universe, as far as they can understand the Xhodocto are ambiguous and sometimes terrifying |
| 23:30.19 | Wormy_ | Of course, whether those supernatural rules are really possible to understand, well you wouldn't know until you knew them! |
| 23:31.07 | Xho | I suppose another subject of discussion would be what exactly do the Ultraterrestrials and Essentials understand about the Xhodocto |
| 23:31.30 | Wormy_ | I'd leave that question un-opened |
| 23:32.11 | Wormy_ | If they *do* know more about them, it implies the Xhodocto are not really supernatural, of coursem they could still be on higher levels, but narratively speaking |
| 23:32.34 | Xho | Going back to the infinite sets of unknown rules comes the thought that other entities exist on these domains as well |
| 23:33.18 | Xho | So they'd be imperceptible and infinitely greater than an Ultraterrestrial and Essential but the Xhodocto are still the n+1 factor above them |
| 23:33.28 | Xho | But that's debatable |
| 23:33.42 | Wormy_ | I'd imagine the Unseen Entity in my Manifold mythos came from one of those alt-existences |
| 23:35.00 | Xho | Because of the idea of these sets of rules each domain would contain a set of entities infinitely greater than the last but still infinitely as far from whatever domain the Xhodocto actually lie upon |
| 23:36.29 | Xho | Although it's unfathomable for something like the Vi'Navitum to understand |
| 23:37.41 | Xho | As far as they know this particular frame of reality whether it's the most real or not is the greatest they can understand and thus the Xhodocto manifesting in this domain is the greatest they can perceive |
| 23:37.47 | Wormy_ | There's no reason there's an ultimate infinity the Xhodocto inhabit though, there could be uncountably infinite ones beyond |
| 23:37.56 | Xho | Exactly |
| 23:38.17 | Xho | There's no single domain they can inhabit because there's always an uncountable infinity they're upon |
| 23:39.17 | Wormy_ | I don't know whether you know about this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleph_number |
| 23:39.20 | Xho | I do |
| 23:39.32 | Xho | I'm very slightly alluding to it |
| 23:40.56 | Wormy_ | indeed |
| 23:41.18 | Xho | But yeah to think of anything beyond Chaos in the hypothetical domain of Tangent, Arx, Insomnia and Equilibrium is folly |
| 23:42.40 | Xho | Because you're jabbing at infinity, and then piling another hypothetical infinity on top of it ad infinitum where all these unthinkably convoluted mechanics of infinitely deviant expressions of existence count and that will cause a headache |
| 23:42.53 | Wormy_ | well, as Karl Popper said, "Our knowledge can only be finite, while our ignorance must necessarily be infinite." |
| 23:43.46 | Wormy_ | But it is positive in the respect that there is also no reason to suspect that there is an end to knowledge either |
| 23:44.12 | Ghel | Perhaps you might want to say that Chaos Planes are the sole part of Chaos that has some comprehensibility to it. |
| 23:44.20 | Xho | Ghel: That works |
| 23:44.40 | Xho | You could go completely the other way and think of hypothetical existences with less axioms and laws as this one and think whether the Xhodocto exist on those levels but working in a retrograde step is harder |
| 23:45.04 | Xho | Especially since we know some degree of this universe |
| 23:46.14 | Wormy_ | Or, one could say that whether the Xhodocto are knowable could be left unanswered, there could always be more space to place their unknown mechanics |
| 23:47.15 | Wormy_ | arguably, we know a lot more than just the physical universe, we know of other abstractions through the window of physical limits |
| 23:47.38 | Wormy_ | like morality, aesthetics and mathematics |
| 23:48.15 | Wormy_ | we know what aleph 0, 1 etc. are, although we'll never know all types of infinity |
| 23:48.53 | Wormy_ | You can imagine impossible existences, are they possible worlds too? |
| 23:49.26 | Xho | Well currently we don't know |
| 23:49.31 | Xho | Might be |
| 23:49.44 | Wormy_ | we can reject the premise of some of these questions |
| 23:50.49 | Wormy_ | Maybe that's why we should be okay with describing the Xhodocto, but formulating an in-universe reason why they can't be understood, or maybe simply haven't been yet |
| 23:52.14 | Xho | Well my most basic reasoning for the inability to understand the Xhodocto is that they're more complicated than what can be understood |
| 23:52.19 | Xho | As to what degree, well |
| 23:54.50 | Ghel | I'm going to go now. Bye! |
| 23:54.58 | Liquid_Ink | Bye! |
