| 00:01.27 | Monet | I suppose another influencer of a special relationship is the Kicathian province inside the Imperium |
| 00:12.38 | DrodoEmpire | test |
| 00:13.04 | Charles_Murray | Xho: you have improving relations with France, yeah |
| 00:13.21 | Charles_Murray | I broke Xho |
| 00:13.34 | DrodoEmpire | ^ |
| 00:15.57 | The_Randomness | rip |
| 00:24.57 | DrodoEmpire | Christ on a fucking cracker |
| 00:25.13 | DrodoEmpire | This whole teacher's union strike is going nuts |
| 00:25.51 | DrodoEmpire | School's already cancelled for monday, and now there're talks about the whole week going down the shitter because the Union's taking their grievances to court? |
| 00:27.44 | DrodoEmpire | I mean as a kid who goes to public school my first instinct's to be happy- but this combined with the days we're inevitably going to lose to further snowstorms and hurricanes and this could actually pose a risk of taking chunks out of summer |
| 00:27.58 | DrodoEmpire | Which isn't good |
| 00:28.18 | DrodoEmpire | Plus the quality of classes themselves might be affected for however many arcane reasons |
| 00:34.20 | Monet | Yikes |
| 00:34.33 | The_Randomness | I heard about that, actually |
| 00:34.35 | DrodoEmpire | Yeah sorta sucks |
| 00:34.44 | DrodoEmpire | Nova Scotian Teacher's Union strikes? |
| 00:34.49 | The_Randomness | yeah |
| 00:34.58 | DrodoEmpire | I'm... actually really surprised o.O |
| 00:35.03 | DrodoEmpire | Small world |
| 00:35.19 | The_Randomness | There's a person from NS in another channel I visit |
| 00:35.25 | DrodoEmpire | Ahh, fair fair |
| 00:35.29 | DrodoEmpire | What's his take on this? |
| 00:35.50 | The_Randomness | I can't remember, let me see what I can dig up though |
| 00:35.57 | DrodoEmpire | kk |
| 00:41.44 | Tek0516 | DrodoEmpire: damn, our teacher union did "work to rule" (no school activities of any kind) a lot but never went striking like that. O.o |
| 00:41.56 | DrodoEmpire | Ours is doing the same |
| 00:42.00 | DrodoEmpire | Or was, rather |
| 00:42.13 | DrodoEmpire | This bullshit escalated *reeeeaaally* quickly, though |
| 00:44.05 | The_Randomness | From what I gather, pretty much the provincial government sounds like it's refusing to negotiate with the teachers, and the students are fed up with this too |
| 00:44.26 | The_Randomness | Aside from that, I haven't heard too much, just from skimming some logs |
| 00:44.46 | DrodoEmpire | Ah |
| 00:44.57 | DrodoEmpire | Well, I can say from here it *is* a bit more complicated |
| 00:45.12 | Tek0516 | Yeah, it's rarely simple with these. |
| 00:45.36 | The_Randomness | of course, this is just the sort of tl;dr with skimming over part of a day of logs |
| 00:45.47 | Tek0516 | Even if "more" fault can often be assigned to one side. |
| 00:46.46 | DrodoEmpire | The government's being a bunch of dickheads, the Union's acting like the Mob, as always, and the student "protesters" who walked out of NS schools were a eclectic bunch of mentally-deficient slacktivists and nitwits who wanted a free period |
| 00:47.08 | DrodoEmpire | I hate all three groups, frankly |
| 00:49.00 | DrodoEmpire | Teachers have some genuine grievances, but I know better than to assume that a union's motives are entirely ethical or based on its members' wellbeing, and the government is having a hard time funding education as it is |
| 00:49.14 | DrodoEmpire | And the students should seriously shut the hell up as they have no dog in this race |
| 00:49.39 | DrodoEmpire | :p |
| 00:53.32 | Monet | Every side has its problems. |
| 00:53.39 | The_Randomness | yeah, how dare they make some noise about something that affects them directly |
| 00:58.31 | DrodoEmpire | No, more like how dare the student council try and rabble-rouse the student body and spread inaccurate rumours based on the very little information they or anybody else has |
| 00:58.37 | DrodoEmpire | My sarcastic friend. |
| 01:00.27 | DrodoEmpire | I was there, I knew people's motives and just how poorly informed they were about the current events and even the planned walkout. When I say the student body had no business there, I'm telling the damn truth. |
| 01:01.17 | *** join/#sporewiki Spluff5 (2f482d3f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.47.72.45.63) |
| 01:02.12 | DrodoEmpire | I have no respect for people who try to dupe someone in to a passionate position, or indeed assumes a passionate position, based on their interpretation of scant information |
| 01:02.15 | DrodoEmpire | Hi |
| 01:02.51 | The_Randomness | Fair enough, I probably should've looked into this some more before saying anything |
| 01:02.56 | DrodoEmpire | Yes |
| 01:03.31 | Spluff5 | Hi... |
| 01:03.53 | DrodoEmpire | Sorry, talking about the teacher's strikes in NS |
| 01:03.57 | Spluff5 | The trick I use is to never have a passionate position. |
| 01:04.17 | DrodoEmpire | You know a couple years ago I'd say that that's no good |
| 01:04.27 | DrodoEmpire | But you know? The world needs more indifferent people <.< |
| 01:04.36 | DrodoEmpire | pats Spluff on the back |
| 01:04.41 | DrodoEmpire | Good on you |
| 01:05.22 | DrodoEmpire | >.> |
| 01:07.24 | Spluff5 | tanks |
| 01:59.53 | *** join/#sporewiki ghostlight (~ghostligh@ec2-54-187-97-144.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com) |
| 02:14.07 | Spluff5 | Hello? |
| 02:14.44 | DrodoEmpire | Hi |
| 02:14.55 | DrodoEmpire | What's up? Anything you need? |
| 02:23.02 | Spluff5 | Know anything about nukes? |
| 02:30.35 | Monet | We know a couple of things, what are you interested in knowing specifically. |
| 02:34.10 | Spluff5 | If other elements apart from Uranium and Plutonium could be more effective |
| 02:37.18 | Monet | Well, on the periodic table anything with a larger atomic number than Bismuth (83) is radioactive. |
| 02:38.40 | Monet | I'm not sure about Thorium's properties but it has been considered for nuclear reactors I think |
| 02:39.08 | Tek0516 | In theory yes. The main limitation under current technology is lack of abundance (decays too quickly to appear in viable quantites) |
| 02:40.11 | Monet | Plutonium is very rarely mined - way too brief a half-life for that for most isotopes. |
| 02:40.54 | DrodoEmpire | Right |
| 02:40.57 | DrodoEmpire | why do you ask? |
| 02:40.59 | DrodoEmpire | I don |
| 02:41.16 | DrodoEmpire | *don't think you intend to *build* one anytime soon. XD |
| 02:41.26 | DrodoEmpire | Or rather, I *hope* you don't intend to <.< |
| 02:41.27 | Tek0516 | But even with artificial elements it also needs to be stable enough that it doesn't undergo a nuclear reaction preemptively |
| 02:42.06 | Monet | I'm guessing Spluffs is curious about any effective weapons-capable alternatives to uranium exist for fiction purposes |
| 02:42.13 | DrodoEmpire | Ah |
| 02:42.45 | DrodoEmpire | I figure as well, though I must warn that nuclear ordinance is pretty outdated by the time you're about Tier 4 |
| 02:43.09 | DrodoEmpire | "Dirty bombs" that are intended to irradiate an area may still remain though, but they' |
| 02:43.15 | DrodoEmpire | *they're wildly unethical |
| 02:43.24 | Monet | *depleted* uranium however might still be popular for ammunition due to its sheer weight. |
| 02:44.19 | DrodoEmpire | Right |
| 02:44.30 | DrodoEmpire | Its basically lead but even heavier |
| 02:44.39 | Tek0516 | I think theoretically per atom the highest yield is probably whatever the highest mass element is, though after a certain point their lifetime is a fraction of a second and any theoretically fissible isotopes are unusable. |
| 02:44.40 | DrodoEmpire | Which'd be good for heavy weapons like HMGs and the like |
| 02:45.16 | Tek0516 | *highest mass element you can produce is |
| 02:47.27 | DrodoEmpire | I like how 'No Russian' was *so* controversial it warrants its own article on Wikipedia |
| 02:47.38 | DrodoEmpire | Not a section of the MW2 article, its own article |
| 02:48.37 | Monet | Uranium is popular as nuclear material because it's one of the only radioactive materials that can be mined. |
| 02:49.16 | Tek0516 | But I think plutonium can also be produced in usable quantities from that uranium as well. |
| 02:50.43 | Monet | Yeah. Any radioactive material is either going to be synthesised from uranium or thorium. |
| 02:51.18 | Monet | Or you could try mining asteroids around young stars or proto-planetary disks. |
| 02:51.43 | DrodoEmpire | I can see Tier 5s doing this sorta thing to build a substantial nuclear arsenal yeah |
| 02:52.04 | DrodoEmpire | But keep in mind that such weapons are fairly primitive compared to others-- that's not a bad thing, just saying |
| 02:52.30 | DrodoEmpire | Nuclear weapons have long been knocked off the throne as most deadly weapons ever made by the 29th century :p |
| 02:53.43 | Monet | Extreme-velocity projectiles can cause just as much damage as an atomic bomb if not more. |
| 02:54.16 | DrodoEmpire | That too |
| 02:54.36 | DrodoEmpire | Though they lack the explosive property and I suppose questions can be raised about how energy efficient that is |
| 02:55.10 | DrodoEmpire | I mean if we're talking rudimentary starships with mass drivers I wonder if the firing of one might not cause the starship to go adrift for quite some time from the blowback |
| 02:55.21 | DrodoEmpire | (assuming that that's how it works-- I suck shit at physics) |
| 02:55.33 | Monet | The whole "blast wave of radioactive material" is generally seen by modern militaries as an unfortunate byproduct - generals are interested in nukes for the shockwave, building leveling power and the bog boom. |
| 02:55.48 | DrodoEmpire | Except that dirty bombs are a thing |
| 02:56.05 | DrodoEmpire | Which are low yield nuclear weapons made to spread radiation *everywhere* |
| 02:56.06 | Tek0516 | On the other hand though mass drivers are easy to control in terms of damage and comparatively hard to stopl. |
| 02:56.06 | Monet | Used differently |
| 02:56.28 | DrodoEmpire | I suppose Tek |
| 02:56.36 | DrodoEmpire | Might be a matter of choice or doctrine, I dunno |
| 02:56.47 | Tek0516 | Definitely |
| 02:57.28 | Monet | Some nations would rather go for a weapon that does "enough damage" |
| 02:57.33 | Tek0516 | Nukes are probably more energy efficient since most of it is stored when mined (though I don't know energy costs to mine and enrich) |
| 02:59.48 | Monet | DrodoEmpire: No Russian - Probably one of the best examples out of context of video games as murder/terrorism simulators. |
| 02:59.59 | DrodoEmpire | Yeah |
| 03:00.07 | DrodoEmpire | Hooooly shit was that level divisive |
| 03:00.13 | Tek0516 | Yeah. It's questionable even in context. |
| 03:00.33 | DrodoEmpire | I mean a lot of people thought it was tasteless or executed poorly, and sure maybe it was |
| 03:01.04 | DrodoEmpire | Others thought that even if the level itself was bad it opened the door for controversial themes to be explored in video games, and I mean |
| 03:01.05 | DrodoEmpire | Maybe |
| 03:01.07 | Monet | It might have been going for a Bioshock |
| 03:01.58 | Monet | Games are often seen as celebrating agency - so here's a level where you are forced to murder hundreds of people and there are no alternatives. |
| 03:02.10 | DrodoEmpire | True |
| 03:02.28 | DrodoEmpire | Well, forced to witness the murder of hundreds anyway |
| 03:02.34 | DrodoEmpire | Either way, profoundly fucked up |
| 03:02.35 | Monet | In that regard, I'd be more concerned for the people who played the mission and -didn't- think about it. |
| 03:06.33 | Monet | It's probably a situation where a player is going to be mentally performing one of the darkest phrases seen in war crimes trials |
| 03:06.40 | Monet | "We were only following orders" |
| 03:07.57 | DrodoEmpire | Right, yeah |
| 03:10.33 | Monet | it's super-late for me so goodnight |
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| 08:55.21 | Spluff5 | Why don't yall just use nuclear missiles as weapons? |
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| 12:05.01 | *** join/#sporewiki NeonPanda (65b3507e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.101.179.80.126) |
| 12:05.08 | NeonPanda | and I'm back |
| 12:05.50 | NeonPanda | OluapPlayer: got bored and started figuring out how I'd remake the Dark Knight from FFXIV as a Pathfinder character |
| 12:06.09 | OluapPlayer | Hm? |
| 12:08.21 | NeonPanda | I know you don't play the MMO, though the end result turned up pretty interesting from my point of view |
| 12:08.46 | NeonPanda | basically Dark Knights are tanks that use magic to hold aggro, deal damage and avoid damage as opposed to using weapon skills and whatnot |
| 12:09.30 | OluapPlayer | I don't, but I can understand the terms |
| 12:11.25 | NeonPanda | hence why I used MMO terms :P ended up with a protection/death cleric, between those and channeling negative energy I basically ended up with a "tank" that has an AoE scare the crap out of people ability (there's a channel negative energy alternate that causes fear), and from there just taking further spells to push the edgyness to maximum |
| 12:11.44 | OluapPlayer | I see |
| 12:12.30 | NeonPanda | only sad thing is that Dark Knights are supposed to use greatswords, which makes spellcasting difficult |
| 12:13.04 | NeonPanda | I basically just do this every so often; find something in another game and figure out how to Pathfinder-ify it |
| 12:16.07 | OluapPlayer | Not too unexpected |
| 12:17.07 | NeonPanda | especially when I'm playing an otherwise straightforward character like Syren |
| 12:31.34 | *** join/#sporewiki Tek0516 (uid149600@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ciowaflagekebbue) |
| 12:33.42 | NeonPanda | hi |
| 13:29.16 | Tek0516 | It's snowing. Transit system imploding. |
| 13:30.28 | NeonPanda | oh boy |
| 13:31.20 | Tek0516 | One left a dozen of us behind, this one is literally full now. I watched people in despair as we drove by a stop. |
| 13:31.28 | NeonPanda | heh |
| 13:32.43 | Tek0516 | We're a couple people away from a clown car. |
| 13:36.27 | NeonPanda | meanwhile I'm over here deciding that mission objectives are for chumps and the real way to win a mission is to embrace my inner Necron and purge the living |
| 13:38.12 | Tek0516 | O.o |
| 13:38.47 | NeonPanda | technically speaking what I'm supposed to be doing is collecting 6 of the 10 servitors throughout the spaceport before my enemy does |
| 13:38.56 | NeonPanda | I figure the most expedient way to do so is to kill the enemy before they get the chance |
| 13:41.20 | NeonPanda | tactic successful |
| 14:01.09 | Tek0516 | My bus is stuck in snow... |
| 14:02.01 | Tek0516 | Shit. |
| 14:06.13 | NeonPanda | damn |
| 14:08.10 | Tek0516 | 5 minutes of skidding to get loose. |
| 14:21.46 | Tek0516 | I made it at least. Half an hour behind schedule, but I made it. |
| 14:22.19 | Tek0516 | (2 hours Presentation in 10 minutes and I haven't even had breakfast yet) |
| 14:25.48 | *** join/#sporewiki ImpyDroid (~Anders@host-115-158-66-217.spbmts.ru) |
| 14:32.35 | NeonPanda | fun |
| 14:41.36 | *** join/#sporewiki Hachiman (5afe2252@gateway/web/freenode/ip.90.254.34.82) |
| 14:41.39 | Hachiman | Hi |
| 14:45.39 | *** join/#sporewiki Xho (97e6a92b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.151.230.169.43) |
| 14:47.06 | NeonPanda | hi hachi |
| 14:48.20 | Hachiman | That's Xho |
| 14:48.54 | NeonPanda | yeah but I like you more |
| 14:48.58 | Hachiman | Ouch |
| 14:49.04 | Xho | Doesn't matter |
| 14:50.16 | Xho | So the doctor diagnosed me with moderate to severe depression |
| 14:50.18 | Xho | So all is well |
| 14:51.51 | Hachiman | Were you expecting that? |
| 14:52.02 | Xho | Sort of |
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| 15:01.19 | Xho | I'm not gonna do fiction over Christmas I've decided |
| 15:01.39 | Hachiman | That's fair enough |
| 15:01.42 | Hachiman | Christmas is tough |
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| 15:23.04 | NeonPanda | hi monet |
| 15:23.28 | Monet | hi |
| 15:33.55 | Monet | So playing Warhammer 40K; Retribution as Chaos the other day. Abaddon comes off as far more formidable than his meme-based reputation. |
| 15:34.19 | NeonPanda | that's because his meme-based reputation is entirely that |
| 15:34.36 | NeonPanda | and the fact that part of his lore is rather handwavey in a way that makes him seem less threatening than he actually should be |
| 15:35.08 | Monet | So good on Relic for at least making him seem threatening |
| 15:38.32 | Charles_Murray | Damn it it's snowing |
| 15:38.33 | Charles_Murray | Whyyy |
| 15:44.27 | NeonPanda | because it's hot down here |
| 15:44.43 | NeonPanda | all the coldness went north to make us feel slightly better about casually dying |
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| 16:09.51 | Jepardi | Hi |
| 16:13.58 | Tek0516 | Charles_Murray: My bus got stuck in snow and it twice as long as normal to get to university |
| 16:48.35 | Charles_Murray | test |
| 17:01.40 | ImpyDroid | Charles_Murray: Holy shit, it snows in California? |
| 17:01.47 | ImpyDroid | Or wait where are you atm |
| 17:01.55 | Charles_Murray | Upstate New York |
| 17:01.58 | ImpyDroid | Oh |
| 17:02.04 | Charles_Murray | So not too much out of the ordinary |
| 17:02.07 | ImpyDroid | That is somewhat less unusual |
| 17:02.11 | Charles_Murray | ^^ |
| 17:02.20 | ImpyDroid | Could be worse, could be... what is happening here right now |
| 17:02.21 | Charles_Murray | How're you doing, Impy? |
| 17:02.26 | ImpyDroid | >it snows |
| 17:02.29 | ImpyDroid | >lots of snow |
| 17:02.31 | Charles_Murray | What's happening in Russia right now? o.O |
| 17:02.43 | ImpyDroid | >the temperature goes up |
| 17:02.46 | ImpyDroid | >the snow melts |
| 17:02.53 | ImpyDroid | >the temperature goes down again |
| 17:03.00 | ImpyDroid | >the melted snow turns into ice |
| 17:03.03 | Charles_Murray | >must needs noa's arc |
| 17:03.25 | ImpyDroid | No, one would need Noah's icebreaker for thia |
| 17:03.27 | ImpyDroid | *this |
| 17:03.30 | Charles_Murray | lol |
| 17:03.32 | Charles_Murray | That's probably going to happen fairly soon. I have crampons just in case >.< |
| 17:03.50 | ImpyDroid | I slipped and fell down while leaving the bus today |
| 17:03.56 | Charles_Murray | Owww |
| 17:04.03 | Charles_Murray | Sorry about that |
| 17:06.41 | ImpyDroid | What is happening in Russia? TBH not much |
| 17:06.57 | ImpyDroid | I became aware there is a growing middle class in North Korea |
| 17:07.45 | Charles_Murray | Ayup |
| 17:09.03 | ImpyDroid | That to be honest would make unification much easier |
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| 17:35.09 | Tek0516 | ImpyDroid2: I managed to slip on the snow barely after I left my building. Know the feeling. |
| 17:37.17 | Tek0516 | Forecast is 5-10 centimeters of snow today. |
| 17:47.57 | Hachiman | http://i.imgur.com/O4PiCHs.png?1 So, I made another character for Khara's roster of friends |
| 17:49.51 | Hachiman | Kyrion Ravenstar; human mage of the Sovereignty who utilises a combination of arcane magic, improvisation, and sleight-of-hand to perform tricks and manoeuvres to overcome stronger and more dangerous opponents |
| 17:53.45 | *** join/#sporewiki Imperios (~Imperios@95.140.92.25) |
| 17:54.02 | Hachiman | Hi Imp |
| 17:54.05 | Hachiman | http://i.imgur.com/O4PiCHs.png?1 nu char |
| 17:58.04 | OluapPlayer | He needs a tophat |
| 17:59.07 | Hachiman | Oh yes |
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| 18:00.35 | Treebeard | Hello |
| 18:00.47 | Hachiman | Hi Tree |
| 18:02.17 | Charles_Murray | Hey |
| 18:04.34 | Charles_Murray | PFFFFFF |
| 18:04.44 | Charles_Murray | France's Prime Minister just announced that he's resigning |
| 18:07.09 | Monet | hi |
| 18:10.12 | Monet | He's pretty unpopular iirc. |
| 18:11.16 | Monet | Italy's PM also resigned very recently |
| 18:12.02 | Charles_Murray | Yesterday, yeah |
| 18:13.24 | Technobliterator | I still don't understand what the Italy vote thing was even about |
| 18:14.16 | Charles_Murray | Vote to amend the Italian constitution to streamline voting, move power away from the Senate, and concentrate some of it in the executive |
| 18:14.26 | Monet | Yeah I saw the referendum question and bloody hell was it convoluted. |
| 18:14.31 | Charles_Murray | But it quickly became a vote of confidence in Italy's incumbent party |
| 18:14.41 | Charles_Murray | incumbent government* |
| 18:14.58 | Technobliterator | oh |
| 18:15.05 | Technobliterator | So it had nothing to do with the European Union at all |
| 18:15.21 | Technobliterator | and people on my feed are claiming it did because they are projecting |
| 18:15.24 | Monet | THe question was "Do you approve the text of the Constitutional Law concerning 'Provisions for overcoming equal bicameralism, reducing the number of Members of Parliament, limiting the operating costs of the institutions, the suppression of the CNEL and the revision of Title V of Part II of the Constitution' approved by Parliament and published in the Official Gazette no. 88 of 15 April 2016?" |
| 18:16.44 | Charles_Murray | Technobliterator Euroskeptic parties in Italy successfully made it into a referendum on the incumbent government and the EU |
| 18:16.54 | Technobliterator | ah |
| 18:16.58 | Technobliterator | Makes sense |
| 18:17.17 | Technobliterator | I know that the thing in Austria was made about the EU |
| 18:18.52 | Charles_Murray | "Who do you want to be the next President of Austria? Answer Yes / No. |
| 18:19.11 | *** join/#sporewiki Charles_Bot (uid94017@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ohvfrjzafzhtddso) |
| 18:20.16 | Technobliterator | :P |
| 18:26.20 | Imperios | Charles_Bot: So, Eurosceptics fucking everywhere? |
| 18:26.36 | Imperios | What are the chances of Le Pen winning? |
| 18:29.11 | Charles_Bot | I don't know the exact numbers, but Fillon is ahead in the polls |
| 18:29.43 | Charles_Bot | Grain of salt obviously |
| 18:30.03 | Imperios | Yeah, like look how the polls helped us the last two times |
| 18:30.12 | Charles_Bot | Polls have consistently underestimated the strength of the anti-establishment vote |
| 18:30.23 | Imperios | Fucking lil' Reichs springing everywhere |
| 18:32.18 | Charles_Bot | Not quite |
| 18:32.36 | Charles_Bot | But Fillon has appeal among Le Pen's voters, surprisingly |
| 18:32.45 | Imperios | Well I am exaggerating here |
| 18:32.51 | Charles_Bot | But we won't know for sure until Le Pen actually starts campaigning |
| 18:32.52 | Imperios | Obviously, say, Trump is not LITERALLY Hitler |
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| 19:05.06 | Imperios | https://cs7066.vk.me/c637524/v637524441/247e2/utgehi1Mqvs.jpg |
| 19:06.58 | Xho | Imperios: Averted - führer |
| 19:15.21 | Xho | Charles_Bot: Isn't it better if Italy acquires more executive power so that the EU doesn't crumble |
| 19:16.49 | Xho | Not sure what to think of Hollande either |
| 19:16.56 | Xho | Whether he was incompetent or he was dealt a shit hand in politics |
| 19:16.58 | Xho | Or both |
| 19:19.24 | Xho | Hachiman: Uvuvwevwevwe Onyetenyevwe Ugwemubwem Ossas |
| 19:21.14 | Xho | Is everyone dead or something |
| 19:22.41 | Monet | Possibly |
| 19:24.40 | The_Randomness | yes |
| 19:26.44 | Xho | Not sure what to do atm |
| 19:26.57 | Xho | On wiki break so I'm not really in the mood for fiction stuff |
| 19:27.36 | Xho | Reasons for which are that at this time of year I tend to lose my shit very quickly and I'm not giving myself the ammunition for it |
| 19:33.40 | Imperios | OluapPlayer Monet: I just realised "Borealum" is not a real Latin word |
| 19:33.56 | Imperios | The correct adjectival form would be either "borealis" or "boreale" |
| 19:34.10 | Imperios | Or "boreum" |
| 19:35.55 | Monet | Makes sense |
| 19:37.10 | Xho | Imperios: Could be Borealium...well no not really |
| 19:37.27 | Imperios | It's BorealE |
| 19:37.40 | Imperios | We literally just covered that in uni last Thursday so do not argue with me hur |
| 19:37.56 | Xho | neuter nominative I guess |
| 19:38.41 | Imperios | And that's the third declension |
| 19:39.12 | Xho | Borealium would be genitive plural then |
| 19:40.01 | Imperios | "Of Boreales" |
| 19:40.36 | Xho | Borealium is close to Borealum |
| 19:40.37 | Xho | kinda |
| 19:40.44 | Xho | Almost sounds like a genitive |
| 19:43.05 | Xho | You know what I can't be bothered to chat atm |
| 19:50.25 | Hachiman | Xho_Away: Sorry was eating Chinese |
| 19:52.48 | *** join/#sporewiki ghostlight (~ghostligh@ec2-54-187-97-144.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com) |
| 19:55.10 | Imperios | You say this and I imagine you literally eating Chinese people |
| 19:55.31 | Hachiman | Yes |
| 19:58.57 | *** join/#sporewiki Wormydroid (516c282b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.81.108.40.43) |
| 19:59.05 | Wormydroid | Hello |
| 20:05.32 | Wormydroid | Hm, don't drink hot coffee with ice cream |
| 20:14.58 | *** join/#sporewiki Wormy_ (516c282b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.81.108.40.43) |
| 20:38.43 | Charles_Bot | Xho_Away: Yes |
| 20:39.49 | Wormy_ | hi |
| 20:47.38 | *** join/#sporewiki Quark8 (49c685a7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.73.198.133.167) |
| 20:47.40 | Quark8 | Hello. |
| 20:52.48 | Wormy_ | If locusts could just about bite skin, how many could strip human flesh down to the bone |
| 21:16.29 | Imperios | Is anyone here versed in classical literature |
| 21:17.19 | *** join/#sporewiki ghostlight (~ghostligh@ec2-54-187-97-144.us-west-2.compute.amazonaws.com) |
| 21:18.23 | Monet | Tiny bit |
| 21:20.01 | Imperios | How did Aeneas escape Troy? |
| 21:20.23 | Imperios | There's a small text about the Aeneid in our Latin textbook which has an ambiguity |
| 21:20.52 | Monet | Trojan War Trojan War... |
| 21:21.23 | Imperios | The textbook's writers probably thought we'd read classical literature, but unfortunately our course is the only one who didd'nt |
| 21:22.16 | Monet | I vaguely recall Aeneas and his followers were later written to be the first Romans |
| 21:22.32 | Imperios | Alright, did Aeneas carry his father on his back, or was it the other way around? |
| 21:22.38 | Imperios | That's the ambiguity |
| 21:23.07 | Monet | That I don't know. |
| 21:26.10 | Monet | Really sorry |
| 21:29.28 | ImpyDroid2 | Oh there found it |
| 21:29.35 | ImpyDroid2 | Aeneas carried his dad |
| 21:30.56 | ImpyDroid2 | Monet: BTW I just found something interesting about the First Order |
| 21:31.31 | ImpyDroid2 | http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/b/bc/Mitaka_uniform.png/revision/latest?cb=20160414102403 See these cylinders on their uniforms? |
| 21:31.52 | Monet | Yes |
| 21:32.21 | *** join/#sporewiki The_Randomness (~chatzilla@c-76-17-200-204.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) |
| 21:32.21 | *** mode/#sporewiki [+o The_Randomness] by ChanServ |
| 21:32.28 | *** join/#sporewiki Quark8 (49c685a7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.73.198.133.167) |
| 21:32.33 | Xho_Away | Imperios: He escaped Troy using the fleet to move to Carthage from what I remember |
| 21:33.21 | ImpyDroid2 | Xho_Away: Aeneas - Thank you for helping us We TOTALLY are not going to raze your city to the ground in a few centuries ^_^ |
| 21:33.56 | ImpyDroid2 | Monet: Thing is it kind of looks like 19th-20th century Russian army uniforms |
| 21:34.04 | ImpyDroid2 | More specifically, Cossack uniforms |
| 21:34.08 | ImpyDroid2 | https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/Pyotr_Wrangel%2C_portrait_medium.jpg |
| 21:34.20 | ImpyDroid2 | *they kind of look like |
| 21:34.32 | Xho_Away | And he did carry Anchises on his back |
| 21:34.38 | Monet | I was about to say those trousers appear to be channeling the Nazi to me. |
| 21:35.57 | ImpyDroid2 | Well the Nazi influence has always been present in Imperial uniforms |
| 21:36.03 | ImpyDroid2 | But the Russian influence is new |
| 21:36.38 | ImpyDroid2 | What I find interesting is that this resemblance is historically meaningful |
| 21:37.20 | ImpyDroid2 | Cossacks were amongst the staunchest supporters of the Russian Empire and were an integral part of the White Movement |
| 21:37.41 | ImpyDroid2 | I.e. the organisation that... sought to restore the Empire after the Emperor's death |
| 21:39.26 | Monet | That does make a lot of sense |
| 21:39.26 | Wormy_ | Nearly dozed off, had one of those strange half sleep thoughts I usually forget upon waking. Well note this time: melting molten wax onto a key to model the keyhole ad thus manufacture keys to unlock the door. Of course if you have a key what would be the point? |
| 21:44.01 | The_Randomness | Wormy_: I get those too, except I can never remember them, and dismiss them anyway because they tend to make no sense |
| 21:44.28 | Wormy_ | rarely do I remember them |
| 21:44.52 | Wormy_ | Sometimes they are accompanied by strange visions I can also never remember |
| 21:45.15 | Wormy_ | They always come with a sense of great insight |
| 21:45.28 | Wormy_ | Then I begin thinking and poof! Gone |
| 21:45.44 | DrodoAway | test |
| 21:45.56 | The_Randomness | for me it's just something incoherent, I go "wtf, that makes no sense" and then it's gone |
| 21:46.12 | Wormy_ | One suggestion is that they are the subconscious filing away trash |
| 21:46.57 | Wormy_ | There's been a few cases of intellectuals managing to remember one that helped them think about a problem |
| 21:47.12 | DrodoAway | Sometimes I get those, most of the time they're nothing but oddly sometimes I get like a really fleeting but good idea, usually a writing idea |
| 21:49.50 | The_Randomness | A surprising number of my ideas come to me when I'm in the bathroom or in the shower or something |
| 21:49.52 | The_Randomness | it's weird |
| 21:50.22 | Wormy_ | Good ideas that I do remember and must write down usually come to me in bed, which is frustrating when I want to sleepo |
| 21:51.40 | Wormy_ | I did find a paper on this once https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14962619 |
| 21:53.02 | The_Randomness | >sees new Crash Course Philosophy episode |
| 21:53.05 | The_Randomness | drops everything |
| 21:53.42 | Wormy_ | Most are nonsense, I bet I would be unlikely to think of copying keys using wax because you already need the key to drip the wax on |
| 21:54.00 | Wormy_ | Unless I imagined pouring wax in a keyhole... which wouldn't work |
| 21:54.47 | Wormy_ | Though I quite like this unbridled creativity, maybe sometimes it has lept to some useful insight |
| 22:00.14 | Wormy_ | I've been following this blog by physicist Micheal Nielson, found this one interesting. He extroplates computer interfaces (or interfaces of tools in general) as a cognitive technology http://cognitivemedium.com/tat/index.html |
| 22:00.29 | Wormy_ | like language |
| 22:01.57 | The_Randomness | >Lisp |
| 22:01.59 | The_Randomness | ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww |
| 22:02.55 | Wormy_ | The more you learn an interface, the more you can begin to think in an interface-theoretic way, expanding what you can do with it. But he explores designing interfaces to perform this even better. Essential we can use our creativity to find new cognitive technologies and advance it further |
| 22:03.12 | Wormy_ | Essentially |
| 22:05.42 | The_Randomness | still reading through it, sounds interesting |
| 22:09.22 | Wormy_ | My lecturer lo es Haskell |
| 22:09.26 | Wormy_ | loves |
| 22:11.07 | The_Randomness | Haskell is beautiful |
| 22:16.17 | The_Randomness | "Your joke reminds me of Burt Totaro's algebraic topology class, it must have been in 2001. He drew the standard picture of a 2-sphere on the board and wrote 'S^2' next to it, but quickly started to discuss n-spheres. Someone put up their hand and asked 'What's an n-sphere?' Burt responded 'Oh it's easy, you just do this', erased the '2' on the board, replaced it by an 'n', and carried on... |
| 22:16.18 | The_Randomness | ...talking." ololol |
| 22:17.18 | *** join/#sporewiki Charles_Murray (ad2e607e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.46.96.126) |
| 22:19.34 | The_Randomness | Wormy_: I feel like this post is in general a bit above me, I don't know how much of it I actually understood |
| 22:21.02 | Wormy_ | One thing that might help... Have you ever identified with an interface, and noticed that once you understood how to use it, you could see all the possibilities and limitations on a path to a particular project? |
| 22:21.50 | The_Randomness | Well, I guess my problem is that I don't feel like he ever properly unpacked the term "interface" |
| 22:22.21 | Wormy_ | Couple of years ago I was learning Autodesk Maya having no experience in 3D. It was a steep learning curve but once I got over it, it all fell into place |
| 22:22.47 | Wormy_ | Ah, I did study them quite bit over the last couple of years |
| 22:24.27 | Wormy_ | Essentially an interface is a set of tools, that's all it is. The tools and design is commonly developed around developing specific things in a certain way (animation and 3D interfaces have timelines for example, image editing programs use a concept of layers as a fundamental unit), but there are exceptions and more general ones that blur the boundaries. Maya uses both |
| 22:25.59 | Wormy_ | I guess as one learns to use an interface they develop an intuitive map, which Nielson likens to language, a cognitive technology that lets you expand your production with least effort |
| 22:26.30 | The_Randomness | Alright that makes more sense |
| 22:27.03 | Wormy_ | "In extreme cases, to use such an interface is to enter a new world, containing objects and actions unlike any you've previously seen. At first these elements seem strange. But as they become familiar, you internalize the elements of this world. Eventually, you become fluent, discovering powerful and surprising idioms, emergent patterns hidden within the interface. " |
| 22:27.48 | Wormy_ | "You begin to think with the interface"..." You have been, in some measure, transformed." |
| 22:28.33 | Wormy_ | That last bit excites me, because people think with lots of different modes of thought, many are largely non-verbal, like doing mathematics |
| 22:29.14 | Wormy_ | That is, when we do mathematics there is a lot of abstract thinking that doesn't involve "this bit goes here, there" etc. |
| 22:29.39 | Wormy_ | Verbal thought is like a parasite that probably emerged more recently in human evolution |
| 22:30.13 | Wormy_ | But could we culturally evolve more? |
| 22:33.23 | Xho_Away | Wormy_: Well culture has evolved dramatically in the past 100 years |
| 22:33.34 | Wormy_ | I agree |
| 22:34.02 | Wormy_ | Compare the growth of culture to before and after the Enlightenment |
| 22:35.58 | Wormy_ | Cultural attitudes can be closed off to new knowledge, or open ended to new knowledge, and that shapes the kinds of ideas and the medium that carries them |
| 22:37.05 | Wormy_ | (essentially we're into memetics here) |
| 22:37.48 | Wormy_ | But the existence of emerging cognitive technologies might well amplify the medium and the message further, I hope |
| 22:41.34 | DrodoEmpire | I was actually just reading about the rise of Christianity and the effect it had on world culture actually |
| 22:41.37 | DrodoEmpire | Related to this |
| 22:42.04 | DrodoEmpire | That whole transitional period at the end of the Migration period and Western Rome into the Dark ages is fascinated |
| 22:42.08 | DrodoEmpire | *fascinating |
| 22:42.13 | Wormy_ | Yeah |
| 22:42.25 | DrodoEmpire | Culturally, theologically, technologically, etc. |
| 22:42.50 | DrodoEmpire | "The Penguin History of the World" is the book I'm reading to learn of it rn |
| 22:42.55 | DrodoEmpire | You ever read it? |
| 22:43.36 | DrodoEmpire | (If you haven't I don't blame you, as its literally the entire in-depth history of the world in a single, comprehensive work) |
| 22:43.41 | Wormy_ | (still, we can never really know whether the Greeks and Romans would have entered an industrial revolution. Some were experimenting with steam engines, but as toys. That's a long way from the same ideas that shaped the 17th industrialists) |
| 22:44.17 | DrodoEmpire | It *could've* happened, but I dunno if there was much incentive ultimately for it to happen |
| 22:44.28 | Wormy_ | (Hm, I've heard of the book I think, I'll have a look) |
| 22:45.37 | DrodoEmpire | I'd definitely recommend it, as its a great book to even read a chapter or two of when you need some quality info on a given civilisation or period |
| 22:45.46 | Wormy_ | Sounds great |
| 22:45.52 | DrodoEmpire | And keep on your shelf the rest of the time |
| 22:45.53 | DrodoEmpire | Yeah |
| 22:46.39 | Wormy_ | If its any interest, my use of "medium and the message" is a nod to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_medium_is_the_message / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Understanding_Media |
| 22:47.49 | DrodoEmpire | Ah |
| 22:48.53 | The_Randomness | Wormy_: for some reason that reminded me of this, may not be terribly relevant https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bm-Jjvqu3U4 |
| 22:48.55 | Tek0516 | Hm... I keep making "build a wall" jokes about this student government office but I just realized there's a literal case of it. They keep parading around that this one group will pay for part of the building even though said group hasn't said they will (and if anything might be against it). >.> |
| 22:49.14 | Wormy_ | Ooh, VI Hart, will watch that |
| 22:49.37 | The_Randomness | Vihart's videos are, without exception, great |
| 23:01.20 | *** join/#sporewiki Tybusen (8036adeb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.128.54.173.235) |
| 23:01.53 | DrodoEmpire | Hi |
| 23:02.34 | DrodoEmpire | Eh I think I'ma just post what I have done of this story I've been working on |
| 23:09.00 | DrodoEmpire | http://spore.wikia.com/wiki/Fiction:06/08/2814 - There |
| 23:09.07 | DrodoEmpire | Gonna work on the second chapter later |
| 23:10.36 | Tek0516 | I'll check it out later |
| 23:10.42 | DrodoEmpire | kk cool |
| 23:11.34 | *** join/#sporewiki Hachiman (5afe2252@gateway/web/freenode/ip.90.254.34.82) |
| 23:12.22 | Hachiman | https://scontent-cdg2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15380867_1616681731974685_7085425113625508432_n.jpg?oh=ecc147cfc523ba736e61078255606159&oe=58C4D3C3 This is a thing someone who calls themselves a professional writer actually wrote |
| 23:13.02 | DrodoEmpire | ayy lmao <.< |
| 23:13.22 | Hachiman | I'm not even a novice but holy fuck, that is monumentally awful |
| 23:13.43 | DrodoEmpire | Monumentally pretentious, anyway |
| 23:13.56 | DrodoEmpire | I try to avoid pretentiousness in my writing, at least with fiction |
| 23:14.11 | DrodoEmpire | Sometimes I fear that I come off as overly direct though, in contrast |
| 23:16.32 | DrodoEmpire | Still though |
| 23:16.47 | DrodoEmpire | Reading that exerpt made me feel better about my own short story I just posted |
| 23:17.18 | Hachiman | hur |
| 23:17.28 | Tek0516 | The horrific CC Human Geography kind of killed their whole channel for me. >.> |
| 23:17.29 | Hachiman | I think any writer can feel better knowing that they didn't write that |
| 23:17.47 | Hachiman | Tek0516: What was bad about CC Human Geography again? |
| 23:18.08 | DrodoEmpire | They denied geographical 'determinism' |
| 23:18.19 | DrodoEmpire | Using a nutty ideologue |
| 23:18.30 | Tek0516 | Hachiman: They called a theory racist, declared it wrong on that basis, end video. |
| 23:18.31 | DrodoEmpire | (though to call it determinism is a disservice) |
| 23:18.36 | DrodoEmpire | Basically yeah |
| 23:18.42 | DrodoEmpire | And it was an *anti-racist* theory |
| 23:18.52 | Hachiman | Fucking hell what theory was this? |
| 23:18.54 | DrodoEmpire | Touted by people who wanted to provide a counter to race-based theories |
| 23:19.00 | DrodoEmpire | Geographical determinism |
| 23:19.28 | Wormy_ | I remember that video. Now I am critical of geographical determinism on a couple of points, but that video was just bad |
| 23:19.43 | DrodoEmpire | Basically the idea that Geography and natural resources shaped history, its trajectory, and the agency of humans\ at the highest level |
| 23:20.01 | DrodoEmpire | With most other factors deriving from the "playing field" geography provides |
| 23:20.02 | Hachiman | But... it did |
| 23:20.10 | DrodoEmpire | And they flatly denied it |
| 23:20.15 | DrodoEmpire | Making them idiots |
| 23:20.49 | Wormy_ | To be fair, they retracted the video. The channel has multiple writers/narrators and I think it was poor oversight |
| 23:21.10 | DrodoEmpire | Possibly, but I think the retraction even included a non-apology by John Green himself |
| 23:21.15 | Monet | This feels odd considering I swear CC covered the Indus Valley in their history series. |
| 23:21.23 | Wormy_ | Some of the CC videos on physics, chemistry and philosophy are quite good |
| 23:21.37 | DrodoEmpire | Monet: That was probably before they went a little nuts |
| 23:21.46 | Monet | I'd say it was |
| 23:21.48 | Tek0516 | Really the core idea of the geographical determinism is trying to argue that Europeans just had luck of location rather than anything related to race. |
| 23:21.53 | DrodoEmpire | ^ |
| 23:21.58 | Monet | I think it was before they started *really* beanching out |
| 23:21.59 | DrodoEmpire | Well, Eurasians in general |
| 23:22.08 | DrodoEmpire | Not just Europeans |
| 23:22.18 | DrodoEmpire | And North Africans |
| 23:22.45 | Tek0516 | Yeah |
| 23:23.52 | DrodoEmpire | The geography of Eurasia and north africa is what set up the inhabiting peoples' potential to become advanced civilisations, and also had a hand in what those civilisations, in the broadest way possible, would look like |
| 23:24.21 | DrodoEmpire | i.e Europe was predisposed to be disunified due to the variant terrain and frequent natural barriers to expansion, etc. |
| 23:25.06 | Wormy_ | What I don't like about it, is that agency does play an equally important role from what I've learned: societies capable of open ended growth of knowledge are able to *find* and project on new resources that wouldn't have been known about or available if the knowledge in that region wasn't available. And there are cultural explanations and mechanisms that can cause dynamic and static societies, even where resources or conditions a |
| 23:25.19 | DrodoEmpire | But here's the thing |
| 23:25.37 | DrodoEmpire | GD has a deceptive name as it isn't denying human agency |
| 23:25.54 | DrodoEmpire | Only that geography has a hand in shaping the agency and expanding and limiting the range of possibilities |
| 23:26.10 | DrodoEmpire | Now I agree that, obviously, geography probably didn't have too much of a hand in what the exact tenets of the culture, ideology, religions etc. were but those are also proximate factors not relevant to GD |
| 23:26.32 | DrodoEmpire | Or rather not something geography would *directly* affect |
| 23:26.39 | Wormy_ | Sure, I absolutely agree resources and geography factor into history, but I don't see them as ultimate limits. The onlu ultimate limits to knowledge creation are the laws of physics. The rest are soluble problems |
| 23:26.52 | Tek0516 | Wormy_: of course geography isn't the sole factor, the crash course just tried to deny it played a role entirelym |
| 23:27.06 | DrodoEmpire | Its not the sole factor and I never said that >.< |
| 23:27.13 | Wormy_ | Yeah, the video was awful |
| 23:27.35 | DrodoEmpire | Its one of the biggest factors in ultimately showing the trajectory of a society, and it does establish *practical* limits |
| 23:28.01 | Hachiman | Is Japan a good example of geographical determinism or nah |
| 23:28.03 | DrodoEmpire | I'm sure that given enough time a totally isolated group of people living in an endless desert will develop space travel |
| 23:28.21 | DrodoEmpire | Fairly good, maybe? GD isn't the best when discussing individual civilisations |
| 23:28.27 | DrodoEmpire | But that' |
| 23:28.34 | DrodoEmpire | *But that's not a practical scenario |
| 23:28.38 | Xho_Away | what even is geographic determinism |
| 23:29.05 | DrodoEmpire | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:29.20 | DrodoEmpire | And I should note that its *at the highest level* |
| 23:29.22 | Wormy_ | Yeah, the explanation that cultures in metal poor regions, or agriculturally poor regions like rainforests of Central and South America were still practically stone age civilisations |
| 23:29.24 | Xho_Away | Hm |
| 23:29.36 | Wormy_ | *is quite comfortable |
| 23:29.52 | Xho_Away | Japan has been defined more by its geography than some nations I guess |
| 23:29.57 | DrodoEmpire | I suppose a lot of things would factor into Japan |
| 23:30.04 | Wormy_ | (By the time cultures from Europe arrived |
| 23:30.27 | DrodoEmpire | I mean, it was mountainous, but its utter abundance of seafood did mean that organised fishing villages and primitive societies sprung up there even before proper agriculture was introduced |
| 23:30.48 | Xho_Away | welcome to the rice fields motherfucker |
| 23:31.16 | DrodoEmpire | And its proximity to China, which sprung an advanced civilisation and a place where Japan got much of its own cultural heritage starting off also meant that it could develop a civilisation, and an advanced one |
| 23:31.20 | Xho_Away | The Japanese have their alcohol straight I tell you |
| 23:31.46 | DrodoEmpire | I think the unity of Japan culturally speaking is slightly surprising given its mountainousness, but its political division isn't |
| 23:31.49 | DrodoEmpire | Much like Greece |
| 23:31.56 | DrodoEmpire | So, yeah, good example |
| 23:32.08 | Wormy_ | And geography I think has given the British Isles a different trajectory to that of continental Euope |
| 23:32.14 | DrodoEmpire | Yeah sure |
| 23:32.20 | Xho_Away | like brexit |
| 23:32.22 | Xho_Away | bastards |
| 23:32.28 | DrodoEmpire | rolls eyes |
| 23:32.42 | Tek0516 | It's more focused on why for example the European continent had the potential to conquer the Americas rather than why specific countries did one thing or another |
| 23:32.48 | DrodoEmpire | ^ |
| 23:33.01 | DrodoEmpire | Like I said, broad strokes |
| 23:33.06 | Wormy_ | Where I live, in the birth place of the Industrial Revolution, there are long twisting rivers that spring from the Peak District, which were used to power the early mills. |
| 23:33.07 | Xho_Away | I was being facetious |
| 23:33.13 | DrodoEmpire | rite |
| 23:33.18 | DrodoEmpire | Wormy_ Ah |
| 23:33.27 | Xho_Away | Or sarcastic |
| 23:33.28 | Xho_Away | I dunno |
| 23:33.36 | Tek0516 | DrodoEmpire: though in the Japan example its unity is arguably more recent, we all know well how politically divided it was for a long time. |
| 23:33.59 | DrodoEmpire | Well, I meant cultural unity as in how they all spoke the same language and worshipped the same gods |
| 23:34.04 | Wormy_ | But I'm pretty sure the Industrialists saw that the Derbyshire countryside was a resource in its own right. |
| 23:34.23 | Wormy_ | One that might not have been looked at quite like it before |
| 23:34.24 | DrodoEmpire | But that could be chalked up to the fact that Japan's also relatively small |
| 23:34.33 | DrodoEmpire | Ah |
| 23:34.49 | Tek0516 | Wormy_: The specifics startcto break down by the industrial era though I'd argue. Things like the industrial revolution had a lot more cultural and economic elements than just that. |
| 23:34.52 | Xho_Away | I was about to say it isn't that small but it's not exactly the most habitable country |
| 23:35.13 | Xho_Away | And it is sort of small |
| 23:35.16 | Wormy_ | Tek0516: Precisely what I'm arguing for, from a possibilist angle |
| 23:35.23 | DrodoEmpire | Compared to Europe or China its pretty small yeah |
| 23:35.43 | DrodoEmpire | And it lacks a history of foreign invasions bringing new peoples over so that might factor |
| 23:35.56 | Wormy_ | The cultural incentives and scientific attitude of the culture of the time had the knowledge to understand the Dales were a resource |
| 23:36.02 | DrodoEmpire | Unlike the British Isles |
| 23:36.12 | DrodoEmpire | Which were invaded *constantly* |
| 23:36.25 | Tybusen | From the sound of it, GD sounds basically like how getting a good start in a game of Civ pretty much means you'll win if you know what you're doing and don't get dicked in the ass by someone else |
| 23:36.39 | DrodoEmpire | In a way, yes |
| 23:36.49 | DrodoEmpire | It shapes the possible range of outcomes in a lot of ways |
| 23:36.56 | DrodoEmpire | And in the broadest sense |
| 23:36.56 | Wormy_ | Only very rarely do cultures value knowledge in that sense |
| 23:36.57 | Tek0516 | Tybusen: It's an easy to understand analogy, yes. |
| 23:38.03 | Wormy_ | Most of human history relied on rules of thumb - often which worked to some effect, but reinforced against creativity; or authority |
| 23:38.16 | DrodoEmpire | Keeping GD in mind it isn't terribly surprising that for most of history the world super-powers swung east or west along Eurasia |
| 23:39.00 | DrodoEmpire | It was the Akkadians, then the Macedonians, then the Persians, then the Romans, then the Chinese, then the Mongols, then the Chinese again, then the Europeans, etc. |
| 23:39.26 | Tek0516 | Like in Civ the start isn't the absolute determing factor but it plays a huge role in shaping how things will turn out especially in early stages if the game. |
| 23:39.32 | DrodoEmpire | The modern period and its innovations mean that GD might only be a good tool for explaining pre-modern times, but that's still 99% of world history |
| 23:39.46 | DrodoEmpire | Exactly |
| 23:40.20 | Tybusen | I mean one of the major themes of late Industrial and Modern technology is conquering geography's influence on civilization |
| 23:40.28 | DrodoEmpire | Pretty much |
| 23:40.33 | DrodoEmpire | Through connecting the world |
| 23:40.56 | Tybusen | First the train, then the telegraph, then the automobile, then radio, then the Internet |
| 23:41.00 | DrodoEmpire | ^ |
| 23:41.06 | Tek0516 | And it was the influences of eras before that shaped who would get those advantages first. |
| 23:41.14 | DrodoEmpire | ^ |
| 23:41.15 | Wormy_ | Still, I would love to speculate what would have happened if the Spanish and other Europeans didn't invade the Americas. The Inca were expanding, and could have met other societies. There could have been a competition and/or sharing of knowledge. Many of them had the ruminants of agriculture, boats, metal working, trade routes and so on. And some central American civilisations were already in the process of interaction |
| 23:41.50 | DrodoEmpire | Actually the Inca were pretty unstable by the time the Europeans came, though that's at least partly due to smallpox |
| 23:42.17 | Tybusen | The Inca were going through a civil war when the Spanish arrived, but we don't know if they would have bounced back if the Spanish didn't attack then |
| 23:42.17 | DrodoEmpire | I think there were some hard geographical boundaries set on the First Nations unfortunately, like there were for the Romans |
| 23:42.48 | DrodoEmpire | They may've, but I'm not sure how practical further expansion would be given the geography of South America |
| 23:42.57 | DrodoEmpire | Could've though, I dunno |
| 23:43.15 | Xho_Away | I'm somewhat surprised there's an IRC discussion on geographic determinism |
| 23:43.18 | Xho_Away | I shouldn't be |
| 23:43.20 | Xho_Away | But I am |
| 23:43.23 | DrodoEmpire | hur |
| 23:43.36 | Wormy_ | I was reading the Inca were exploring by the coast, which is rough but still a way to bypass mountains and thick rainforest |
| 23:43.49 | DrodoEmpire | It is |
| 23:43.58 | DrodoEmpire | But suffice to say expansion would've been difficult |
| 23:44.00 | Tybusen | Yeah but the Inca were built along the western side of the Andes |
| 23:44.03 | Tybusen | Which is to say |
| 23:44.18 | Tybusen | Very narrow width to expand along |
| 23:44.24 | DrodoEmpire | I'm pretty sure they expanded as far south as Chile, which is impressive |
| 23:44.27 | Tek0516 | Though a limiting factor was the lack of domesticable animsls that improve food, transportation, labour, etc in the old world |
| 23:44.36 | Tek0516 | For example |
| 23:44.54 | DrodoEmpire | But it also isn't the dead centre of the Amazon and its horrific dickhole-consuming worm parasite things |
| 23:44.58 | DrodoEmpire | <.< |
| 23:44.58 | Tybusen | Yeah, one of the New World's biggest disadvantages was probably the lack of draft animals |
| 23:45.02 | DrodoEmpire | ^ |
| 23:45.46 | DrodoEmpire | And the disease resistance that comes with living in close proximity with filthy farm animals and the sort |
| 23:45.48 | Tek0516 | They still made more progress than we often give them credit for. |
| 23:45.50 | Wormy_ | Well there's lamas, which could have been slowly adapted or bred to survive in the the more humid climate |
| 23:46.02 | DrodoEmpire | Llamas made for pretty mediocre pack animals |
| 23:46.13 | DrodoEmpire | And the mesoamericans had none at all |
| 23:46.17 | Tek0516 | And even then that's really all thy had. |
| 23:46.23 | DrodoEmpire | Which makes their civilisations even more impressive |
| 23:47.08 | Tybusen | Llamas could potentially be selectively bred to be pack animals but I don't think they were good enough to start with to consider breeding them |
| 23:47.19 | Tybusen | Compare to horses, cows, oxen, etc. |
| 23:47.31 | Tybusen | Basically same story as wheel |
| 23:47.44 | DrodoEmpire | They could've been, and it would've taken hundreds or thousands of years |
| 23:47.51 | Wormy_ | ^ |
| 23:48.01 | Tybusen | The wheel is a thing that I think most people wouldn't bother inventing or developing if it wasn't useful to them |
| 23:48.13 | DrodoEmpire | Its a strange omission |
| 23:48.14 | DrodoEmpire | But yeah |
| 23:48.16 | Tybusen | Llamas would be the same in that they weren't useful enough at first to develop |
| 23:48.31 | DrodoEmpire | And I'd love to see a llama bred into a cavalry mount <.< |
| 23:48.39 | Tybusen | Don't let your dreams be dreams |
| 23:48.42 | DrodoEmpire | hur |
| 23:48.54 | Tybusen | I mean we're a fiction writing ffs |
| 23:48.58 | Tybusen | *fiction writing community |
| 23:49.00 | OluapPlayer | Llamas are better than horses, they come with a built-in spit attack |
| 23:49.04 | Tek0516 | Save time and just wait for genetic engineering. :P |
| 23:49.04 | Wormy_ | Ancient couldn't have known that, and early domesticated animals weren't even bred by purpose |
| 23:49.04 | DrodoEmpire | hur |
| 23:49.06 | Xho_Away | +1 |
| 23:49.28 | Xho_Away | I'm gonna go |
| 23:49.31 | DrodoEmpire | Though to be fair the thing that really made the conquistadors dangerous were their heavy infantry as opposed to their tiny (and dwindling) forces of cavalry or their handful of harquebuses |
| 23:50.09 | DrodoEmpire | Small cannons helped in the occasional siege as well |
| 23:50.12 | Tybusen | Was the tercio already developed by the time the conquistadors invaded? |
| 23:50.25 | Tybusen | I know the tercios were feared by other European armies |
| 23:50.35 | DrodoEmpire | Yes, an early form but the number of conquerors was too few to make the formation practical |
| 23:50.45 | DrodoEmpire | A single tercio would have *thousands* of men in it |
| 23:51.02 | DrodoEmpire | bands of conquistadors usually only numbered a few hundred |
| 23:51.54 | DrodoEmpire | Some of the terrain may've also made them impractical at times, but really that's a secondary concern I have no evidence for |
| 23:52.21 | DrodoEmpire | Pike and shot was used all over the diverse continent of Europe for almost 300 years, they did something right |
| 23:53.18 | DrodoEmpire | I recall stories of Spaniards forming a sort of defensive circle vaguely similar to a Tercio in one engagement in the Andes, though |
| 23:53.49 | DrodoEmpire | A few hundred of Pizarro's men (I believe) formed a sort of Schieltron bristling with halberds and swords and fought off a native force many times their size |
| 23:54.24 | DrodoEmpire | I think something like a few hundred Incan soldiers were left dead to a handful of Pizarro |
| 23:54.28 | DrodoEmpire | *Pizarro's men |
| 23:55.05 | Tybusen | no, it was a handful of Pizarro clones |
| 23:55.21 | DrodoEmpire | <.< |
| 23:55.24 | Tybusen | the entire regiment was pizarro |
| 23:55.58 | Tybusen | what historians don't want you to know about the age of exploration |
| 23:56.21 | DrodoEmpire | OH MY GOD |
| 23:56.26 | DrodoEmpire | THE AMERICAS |
| 23:56.30 | DrodoEmpire | WE'RE *ALL* PIZARROS |
| 23:56.36 | DrodoEmpire | AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA |
| 23:56.39 | The_Randomness | XD |
| 23:58.21 | Tybusen | philadelphia was where the united states was founded |
| 23:58.26 | Tybusen | philadelphia starts with p |
| 23:58.31 | Tybusen | guess what also starts with p |
| 23:58.35 | Tybusen | pizarro |
| 23:58.59 | DrodoEmpire | <:o |
| 23:59.02 | The_Randomness | america is pizarro |
