| 00:00.27 | Monet | The more freedoms people have, the less control governments have over their lives. |
| 00:01.21 | Wormy_ | Yeah, the fear was that it could destroy democracy and bring on forms of fascism and communism |
| 00:03.03 | Monet | I think governments are well aware that local terrorism doesn't happen primarily from agents smuggled into a target country, but local radicals. |
| 00:04.16 | Monet | There's sheer paranoia in the States precisely because in the eyes of the states, any one of its 300+ million citizens could be building bombs. |
| 00:05.48 | Monet | eyes of the state* |
| 00:06.50 | Monet | Doesn't help when there are plenty who are notoriously suspicious of the government anyway. |
| 00:10.02 | Monet | This is probably one of those issues where both sides are perpetuating the issue. |
| 00:10.36 | Wormy_ | Certainly |
| 00:13.53 | Wormy_ | In in a way, increased surveillance by governments goes against both concepts of liberty; and all in the name of protecting liberal society |
| 00:15.20 | Wormy_ | Since for one it is fuelled by paranoia and secondly it is intrusive and coercive ("% year old goes on terrorism register for drawing fire") |
| 00:15.30 | Wormy_ | *5 year old |
| 00:16.15 | Wormy_ | "Muslim student gets questioned in university library for reading a book on counter-terrorism" |
| 00:18.30 | Wormy_ | I think both extremes are absurd, maybe what we need is a refutation of the "Two concepts of Liberty" or a balance of the two. |
| 00:19.01 | Wormy_ | I'm sure academics have but politicians need to do the same |
| 00:20.01 | Wormy_ | So there could be positive outcomes of the rise of Corbyn, because it opens the playing field if ideas and re-invigorates people. |
| 00:20.09 | Wormy_ | *of |
| 00:20.17 | Wormy_ | in politics |
| 00:21.59 | Technobliterator | The rise in populism was inevitable |
| 00:22.06 | Technobliterator | The establishment made their bed, now they lie in it |
| 00:22.45 | Technobliterator | Also, that was not a typo :P |
| 00:22.45 | Wormy_ | I agree |
| 00:24.29 | Technobliterator | I don't know if Corbyn will successfully change the conversation like Sanders did |
| 00:25.23 | Technobliterator | There's no way he'll win, the right wing press are too powerful and he's incapable of overcoming his own flaws |
| 00:26.57 | Wormy_ | You see, strong Corbynites see him as flawless, like some kind of saint. But I don't have that faith because he does have flaws like any politician and is much more like the rest than this faith-based image portrays. |
| 00:28.21 | Monet | We might be looking at Owen Smith running in 2020. |
| 00:29.39 | Technobliterator | Owen Smith is a joke, though |
| 00:30.04 | Technobliterator | He doesn't have any real charisma either, he's just a cookie cutter, bland politician which is what everyone was sick and tired of |
| 00:30.25 | Technobliterator | This is why Corbyn won the leadership contest by a landslide, because he was actually different |
| 00:30.50 | Technobliterator | That, and the Blairite Labour massively underestimated how popular classic Labour policies would be |
| 00:31.04 | Monet | THat's what concerns me a little. |
| 00:31.13 | Wormy_ | That, and I guess people got sick of New Labour policies |
| 00:31.53 | Monet | Nigel Farage played us all being a pub-going everyman. |
| 00:32.21 | Monet | What was he before he became UKIP's leader? A fucking broker. |
| 00:32.55 | Monet | He was also a banker for a time I think. |
| 00:33.33 | Technobliterator | Yeah, New Labour policies just weren't going to last |
| 00:33.52 | Technobliterator | They lost lots of votes because no one saw them as a viable alternative to the Tories |
| 00:34.30 | Technobliterator | Also, another reason why Owen Smith and most of Labour are clueless |
| 00:34.33 | Monet | The great 'saviour' of the common British man from the evil European Commisssion was a fucking *banker* |
| 00:34.39 | Technobliterator | They're still stuck in the mindset of there being a two party system |
| 00:34.45 | Wormy_ | While more generally, there isn't a huge degree of variation in their political ideals (same for Lib Dems too) |
| 00:35.17 | Technobliterator | This is evident by Smith whining that Labour aren't going for Tory voters, saying "we need two million! We lost by two million votes last time!" |
| 00:35.42 | Technobliterator | Like, there are so many millions more potential voters |
| 00:35.55 | Technobliterator | and this clueless idiot acts like he should chase Tory voters like he was ever going to get Tory voters anyway |
| 00:37.06 | Technobliterator | the obvious strategy, run negative ads against the Tories and have more of those voters switch to UKIP, chase Lib Dem/Green/first time voters, have an actually likeable or stomachable PM (I'd argue Miliband, and in the eyes of many Corbyn, are not), and then you win easily without New Labour policies |
| 00:37.17 | Technobliterator | but these morons just have no idea what they're doing |
| 00:37.39 | Monet | Here's hoping the Lib Dems have a chance clawing back some confidence |
| 00:38.13 | Technobliterator | They will have a massive job to do that |
| 00:38.22 | Technobliterator | They're still seen as liars and back stabbers by most |
| 00:38.37 | Wormy_ | I see them as failures and suckers |
| 00:38.47 | Technobliterator | Which was mostly Clegg's fault, he had no idea how to play politics at all |
| 00:39.14 | Monet | He wasn't the leg-humper everyone assumed though. |
| 00:39.27 | Technobliterator | Oh, of course |
| 00:39.48 | Technobliterator | Their pro-Europe stance may win some voters, but I feel like they will struggle to rebuild their image |
| 00:40.00 | Monet | Everyone's sick of the Tories, Labour haven't got a clue, UKIP threw an iceberg at us, Greens have no chance and neither ro many of the other independants. |
| 00:40.30 | Technobliterator | Yup! |
| 00:41.03 | Technobliterator | And Labour are too busy throwing a temper tantrum at their own leader to get a clue |
| 00:41.07 | Monet | WHich, if they play their cards right and appear strong, will make the Lib Dems looks like our best hope. |
| 00:41.30 | Wormy_ | Might go to live in Scotland. |
| 00:41.31 | Technobliterator | That, and their pro-Europe stance, is a good strategy |
| 00:42.07 | Monet | I've often liked the Lib-Dems because they're the msot balanced of the parties |
| 00:43.08 | Technobliterator | I find their ideology of liberalism appealing |
| 00:43.16 | Technobliterator | But I have little faith in really any of the parties, so |
| 00:43.17 | Technobliterator | :P |
| 00:44.06 | Wormy_ | Sure, the party appeals to me, but I became disgruntled with them and now they are under my radar unless they make some triumphant return |
| 00:45.08 | Monet | Clegg's had a taste of the cabinet. |
| 00:45.19 | Technobliterator | Clegg had no idea how to play politics |
| 00:45.23 | Monet | That's more than either Smith or Corbyn can say. |
| 00:45.34 | Technobliterator | So he let tons of reforms slip right past him |
| 00:45.47 | Technobliterator | And just caved into the Cameron on other things |
| 00:46.15 | Monet | Who knows, maybe becoming PM in 2020 he'll be a lot more competent. |
| 00:46.27 | Monet | It's a vague hope. |
| 00:47.13 | Technobliterator | I imagine Theresea May will stay PM, but we're a few years off |
| 00:47.30 | Technobliterator | Hope she gets along well with President Trump |
| 00:48.13 | Monet | She's a woman so based on Trump's mouth, I doubt it. |
| 00:48.22 | Technobliterator | lmao yeah |
| 00:49.30 | Monet | From what I've seen of her so far, I highly doubt she'll let any of his shit slide. |
| 00:53.31 | *** join/#sporewiki The_Randomness (~chatzilla@2601:441:1:5b80:846f:446e:f1b6:a536) |
| 00:53.31 | *** mode/#sporewiki [+o The_Randomness] by ChanServ |
| 00:53.44 | Monet | Hi |
| 00:54.03 | The_Randomness | Hello |
| 00:54.28 | Technobliterator | hi random |
| 01:29.12 | Tek0516 | ~test |
| 01:29.12 | infobot | hmm... test is not funny |
| 01:39.19 | The_Randomness | Technobliterator: Are you hyped for 3.4? Yes or yes? |
| 01:39.46 | Technobliterator | Very |
| 01:39.53 | The_Randomness | :3 |
| 01:39.58 | Technobliterator | This badly makes me want to get back into the game again |
| 02:25.30 | *** join/#sporewiki DrodoEmpire (9c390f2a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.156.57.15.42) |
| 02:25.46 | DrodoEmpire | Back |
| 03:14.51 | DrodoEmpire | test |
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| 12:13.57 | *** join/#sporewiki Wormy_ (5f937199@gateway/web/freenode/ip.95.147.113.153) |
| 12:17.19 | Wormy_ | hi |
| 12:27.26 | Ghelae | Hi |
| 12:28.56 | *** join/#sporewiki ImpyDroid (~Anders@host-61-158-66-217.spbmts.ru) |
| 12:31.04 | ImpyDroid | ...What do you mean "pirate" comes from Latin |
| 12:33.33 | Hachiman | Not surprising |
| 12:33.39 | Technobliterator | really needs to rewrite Zargoth's page |
| 12:33.40 | Technobliterator | It's so bad |
| 12:33.51 | OluapPlayer | step ur game up |
| 12:33.53 | Hachiman | Or rather, it comes from Greek |
| 12:34.06 | OluapPlayer | The regular Ralza page is also only half-written iirc |
| 12:34.14 | Technobliterator | Yeah, that too |
| 12:34.51 | Hachiman | Greek "peira, peirein, peirates" which became "pirata" in Latin and "pirate" in Middle English |
| 12:34.59 | ImpyDroid | Hachimman: I was surprised it has a Classical origin |
| 12:35.16 | ImpyDroid | Hachiman: I can read Wiktionary too :P |
| 12:35.40 | Hachiman | I actually knew of its Greek / Latin origins beforehand |
| 12:36.01 | ImpyDroid | >peira, peirein, peirates |
| 12:36.09 | Hachiman | From a YouTube channel admittedly, can't remember which, but I needed Wikitionary to remind me what the Greek was |
| 12:36.14 | ImpyDroid | No way you knew the specific Ancient Greek forms |
| 12:36.20 | ImpyDroid | Right |
| 12:38.56 | ImpyDroid | Still it kind of odd |
| 12:39.02 | ImpyDroid | is kind of odd even |
| 12:39.18 | Hachiman | How so? |
| 12:40.06 | ImpyDroid | Well |
| 12:40.33 | ImpyDroid | The golden age of piracy was well after the Classical era even if there were pirates back there |
| 12:40.45 | ImpyDroid | *then |
| 12:41.20 | ImpyDroid | The rest of the terms for pirates are more modern too |
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| 14:00.32 | *** join/#sporewiki Imperios (~Imperios@95.140.92.93) |
| 14:01.24 | Monet | hi |
| 14:01.42 | Imperios | iH |
| 14:02.03 | Hachiman | Hi |
| 14:05.16 | *** join/#sporewiki Charles_Bot (uid94017@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vbgeheoejrpoqern) |
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| 15:17.00 | Wormy_ | http://i.imgur.com/jhkDNm3.png |
| 15:18.31 | Wormy_ | "The holiday I had when I was a kid was pretty boring" http://i.imgur.com/ORffPS7.png |
| 15:51.38 | Wormy_ | http://i.imgur.com/nBwGwEl.jpg |
| 15:51.43 | Tek0516 | :D I got another job interview. |
| 15:53.31 | Tek0516 | Wormy_: my class from today is currently covering the history of computing. During today he talked about the huge storage of the newly invented hard drive: 128kB. :P |
| 15:55.16 | Wormy_ | lol |
| 15:55.40 | Tek0516 | Said hard drive was around the size of a table. |
| 15:57.31 | Tek0516 | Funny to think you can affordably buy devices with several orders of magnitude more storage now. |
| 15:58.55 | Monet | mANY TIMES SMALLER TOO |
| 15:59.05 | Tek0516 | Indeed |
| 16:00.10 | Monet | Sory for caps |
| 16:00.38 | Monet | It's bizarre to think just three eyars ag oan 8gb flash drive cost £8-9 |
| 16:04.08 | Tek0516 | Even just inventions like magnetic tape improved things by orders of magnitude. |
| 16:07.01 | Tek0516 | Some of the name origins can be amusing. For example software libraries came from when there were literal libraries full of punch cards. |
| 16:08.46 | Wormy_ | I old enough to remember floppy discs, at least |
| 16:12.36 | Tek0516 | Even though we're a few weeks in this class (which is suppoded to be on Operating Systems) is still covering 50s computing. :P |
| 16:14.26 | Monet | That is pretty thorough |
| 16:16.20 | Tek0516 | The main point of it is how the Operating System came to exist and why some otherwise strange things work the way they do. |
| 16:17.48 | Tek0516 | And in more shocking naming, the operating system was originally a system to assist computer operators (yes, there were actual people whose entire job was to operate the computer) |
| 16:18.59 | Tek0516 | Though in this case the operator just inserted the input stuff and took the output stuff. Nothing technical, just a guy who moved cards around. :P |
| 16:39.08 | *** join/#sporewiki Charles_Bot (uid94017@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ifjqttmntevrdrtg) |
| 16:45.03 | Charles_Bot | Hey Wormy_ |
| 16:45.09 | Charles_Bot | Can I just say something? |
| 16:45.14 | Charles_Bot | You're a joy to work with |
| 16:49.27 | Wormy_ | Hi, what do you mean? |
| 16:50.08 | Charles_Bot | You're just great to work with in making collab fiction |
| 16:51.44 | Wormy_ | Thanks, I don't often get direct compliments like that :) |
| 16:53.23 | Charles_Bot | Yeah, it's pretty rare that anyone does |
| 16:58.59 | Wormy_ | I wish I was as active as I used to be, or there would be so much more |
| 17:00.41 | Wormy_ | My compliment to you is that doing fiction with you has greatly opened mine to deeper political depth |
| 17:04.06 | Charles_Bot | ^.^ Yeah, I'm pretty impressed by the politics I see unfold in your user page summary of your fiction |
| 17:08.28 | Charles_Bot | Wormy_ I hopped on STO last night for the first time in forever and started a 23rd century character. I was hoping that after a few years they would have gotten the engine, the storytelling, the voice acting, etc together into something cohesive, but... What |
| 17:08.41 | Charles_Bot | It actually seems to have gotten worse |
| 17:09.13 | Charles_Bot | Is STO worth playing at this point, if their newer content looks like that? |
| 17:09.45 | Wormy_ | Hm |
| 17:10.38 | Wormy_ | I feel as though the level design has improved, and the game feels less grindy, but I'm a bit disappointed with the storytelling |
| 17:10.53 | Wormy_ | Basically sick of the "interdimensional meddlers / time travel" plot |
| 17:11.24 | Wormy_ | The devs recently said they were going to finally introduce exploration, well that hasn't happened yet |
| 17:11.39 | Wormy_ | *an exploration story |
| 17:12.30 | Monet | I checked out the Starbase 13 bulletin and I haven't playedi n ages so to see the 23rd-c banner was jarring |
| 17:12.59 | Wormy_ | Voice acting has improved, if you play as the Romulan faction or the Delta Quadrant story they have voice actors from the series and tried to be creative with the level design |
| 17:14.46 | Wormy_ | So, I'd say its worth giving STO a go, but you might not feel overly impressed. |
| 17:14.59 | Wormy_ | Maybe start out as a Romulan character |
| 17:15.45 | Wormy_ | Also, ground combat feels a bit more interesting now |
| 17:15.58 | Charles_Bot | Well the horrible level design of the 23rd century makes me fear for their endgame levels |
| 17:16.17 | Tek0516 | Maybe I should try it again sometime. |
| 17:16.25 | Charles_Bot | There were no interesting objectives, it was just point, click, and button mash |
| 17:16.52 | Charles_Bot | No need to read the cringey dialogue, thankfully, or pay attention to what's happening |
| 17:17.35 | Charles_Bot | Is the New Romulus stuff better? |
| 17:17.55 | Wormy_ | Here's some game footage trailers for New Romulus and the Delta Quadrant https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ay1WqpXMtBI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_s8vIjf5CRs |
| 17:18.31 | Wormy_ | Well, they made it feel more immersive with puzzles to solve, but it is still button mashy |
| 17:20.23 | Wormy_ | Also as a Romulan you can at least choose to align with Klingons or Feddies |
| 17:20.28 | Charles_Bot | It's a shame, their mechanics of space combat are actually quite unique |
| 17:21.25 | Wormy_ | The space combat is great, I find it addictive. The ground combat always felt a bit lackluster, but at least it feels more immersive in design now |
| 17:23.45 | Wormy_ | Though often the most fun I've had is messing about on public zones |
| 17:24.28 | Tek0516 | I actually played a game with similar space systems (only with a bit more 3D) a while ago called Starpoint Gemini 2. |
| 17:29.00 | Wormy_ | The original developers of STO - Perpetual Entertainment, had a very different conception for STO |
| 17:29.21 | Wormy_ | I remember the old interview they had years ago |
| 17:29.48 | Wormy_ | Originally you was to actually train up from cadet level in Starfleet |
| 17:30.04 | Wormy_ | But it would be really detailed and plot driven |
| 17:30.21 | Wormy_ | Exploration was a theme |
| 17:33.58 | Monet | I vaguely remember they wanted to make the exploration sectors more dynamic. |
| 17:34.19 | Monet | Something like we ended up getting from NMS I think. |
| 17:34.20 | Tek0516 | http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/1474560782-20160922.png |
| 17:35.31 | Wormy_ | The game's gone backwards when they removed cluster exploration |
| 17:35.53 | Wormy_ | Last year there was a big blog post about exploration but I'm still waiting >_< |
| 17:36.15 | Wormy_ | Instead they introduce a new over the top time travel plot |
| 17:36.42 | Wormy_ | I'm a starfleet captain, not a time travelling doctor! |
| 18:05.24 | Tek0516 | Alright, on my way to an interview |
| 18:15.33 | *** join/#sporewiki Charles_Murray (c0f6eafb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.246.234.251) |
| 18:18.49 | Tek0516 | Woo, and I got another interview. XD |
| 18:19.21 | Monet | Yaaaay |
| 18:19.24 | Tek0516 | Already more interviews that the whole four months last time. XD |
| 18:19.50 | Monet | https://media.giphy.com/media/DpB9NBjny7jF1pd0yt2/giphy.gif have a Kermit dance to celebrate XD |
| 18:22.47 | Tek0516 | On my way to the first one so hoping for the best. |
| 18:26.30 | *** join/#sporewiki dino82_ (52b0ddef@gateway/web/freenode/ip.82.176.221.239) |
| 18:26.54 | dino82_ | hi |
| 18:27.55 | Monet | hi |
| 18:47.16 | Imperios | Hachiman: http://wecoloringpage.com/pony-cartoon-my-little-pony-coloring-pages/pony-cartoon-my-little-pony-coloring-page-070/ >coloring book |
| 18:49.39 | Monet | You think that's bad? Try this http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/04/terrorism-coloring-books-isis_n_5767904.html |
| 18:52.19 | Imperios | >Americans |
| 18:52.20 | Imperios | >FREE |
| 18:53.29 | Monet | "Now your kids can learn by colour moment Osama Bin Laden died using a Niqab-wearing harem as a human shield!" |
| 18:55.57 | Monet | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:56.03 | Monet | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:57.33 | Monet | "Critics have since condemned these terrorism coloring books as racist, anti-Muslim propaganda, with some netizens even calling the books a form of âchild abuse.â" okay maybe not |
| 19:08.59 | *** join/#sporewiki DrodoEmpire (9c390f2a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.156.57.15.42) |
| 19:09.04 | Imperios | > they get accused of hating America" |
| 19:09.20 | Imperios | I like how we and Americans are so much alike |
| 19:09.50 | Imperios | "DAMN LIBURRALS, THEY HATE OUR COUNTRY, MULTICULTURALISM EVIL, ENEMIES EVERYWHERE, ATTACK EVERYONE" |
| 19:12.37 | Imperios | Monet: http://cs8.pikabu.ru/post_img/big/2016/09/19/6/1474272010141929419.jpg |
| 19:20.58 | Monet | Imperios: That just makes me think of Gorbachev. |
| 19:21.43 | Imperios | Monet: http://img0.torrentino.me/T/bdPe_O.jpg |
| 19:22.19 | Monet | I think I showed you before |
| 19:22.50 | Monet | There was a show in the UK in the 80s and 90s that portrayed Gorbachev's birthmark to be shaped like the hammer and sickle. |
| 19:23.04 | DrodoEmpire | hur |
| 19:24.19 | *** join/#sporewiki Tybusen (8036ad7d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.128.54.173.125) |
| 19:25.02 | Tybusen | Hello |
| 19:32.34 | DrodoEmpire | Hi |
| 19:36.15 | Monet | Hello |
| 19:40.29 | Imperios | Hi Tybu |
| 19:40.40 | Imperios | Tybusen: http://cs8.pikabu.ru/post_img/big/2016/09/19/6/1474272010141929419.jpg |
| 19:41.24 | Tybusen | absolutely verboten |
| 19:42.20 | Tek0516 | Well, back from my interview |
| 19:43.14 | Tek0516 | Went better than I expected. |
| 19:54.01 | Monet | Nice |
| 19:55.34 | Tek0516 | Now to prepare for my next interview tomorrow |
| 19:57.10 | Tek0516 | This one was a small-ish tech company, tomorrow's is for a government agency. |
| 20:03.37 | Wormy_away | Hachiman: Suddenly, Vsauce DONG https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVnzO5MwpbA |
| 20:16.20 | *** join/#sporewiki Xho (97e0b138@gateway/web/freenode/ip.151.224.177.56) |
| 20:17.25 | Monet | Hello |
| 20:17.57 | Xho | Hi |
| 20:18.44 | Xho | Hachiman: -548,992 edit Removal level: Xhodocto |
| 20:20.14 | Monet | And that's just the first term |
| 20:20.37 | Monet | If it's anything like university we have two more to go. And how many years? |
| 20:23.12 | Monet | (I recall a doctorate is something like seven years - bachelor's is 3 years, master's is one year doctorate is three years) |
| 20:24.26 | Tybusen | Only 3 years for a bachelor's? |
| 20:25.08 | Monet | Yeah |
| 20:25.20 | Monet | In the UK at least |
| 20:25.32 | Tybusen | It's usually 4 years or potentially more for a bachelor's in the US |
| 20:26.00 | Tybusen | 3 years if you really cram your classes in but usually 4 if you're going at a normal pace and 5 if you're a little lazy or have a heavy major |
| 20:26.27 | Monet | Some bachelors you require one additional year of apprenticeship work. |
| 20:27.37 | Tybusen | Hm, I don't know of any colleges that have required apprenticeships other than maybe trade schools |
| 20:27.44 | Tybusen | In the US that is |
| 20:28.14 | DrodoEmpire | Important thing to remember is that in the middle ages some stuff and education wasn't quite as well-defined |
| 20:28.37 | Monet | That's why I'm using modern standards |
| 20:28.37 | Wormy_away | Imperios: http://i.imgur.com/Bz66S8b.jpg |
| 20:28.44 | DrodoEmpire | I don;t think, anyway, I'm far from an expert but a lot of occupations and fields were just emerging or completely different |
| 20:29.26 | Tybusen | I don't know how long someone's university studies would have lasted in the medieval or renaissance eras |
| 20:29.34 | Monet | A docorate might be the closest course to learning to become a qualified mage. |
| 20:29.34 | DrodoEmpire | Me neither |
| 20:29.46 | DrodoEmpire | I can't imagine they were much longer or shorter, though |
| 20:29.48 | Tybusen | Also there were a lot less people going to university before the modern era |
| 20:30.02 | DrodoEmpire | For sure, and most were going for theological stuff |
| 20:30.04 | Monet | Mage-ship seems like something you'd ideally study from childhood. |
| 20:30.10 | DrodoEmpire | Probably |
| 20:30.48 | Tybusen | In a world where magic can be studied scientifically I'd imagine it'd be like any other professional field |
| 20:31.29 | DrodoEmpire | Probably |
| 20:31.32 | Tybusen | Though the gap between the magically-talented and magically-deficient is probably amplified more than other intellectual fields |
| 20:31.36 | Wormy_away | ...Mage? Are you sure? |
| 20:31.59 | Technobliterator | Xho, ad Xi'Arazulha intro plz |
| 20:32.04 | Tybusen | But there might be aspects of magic besides actual spell casting that can be studied by those incapable of using magic themselves |
| 20:32.28 | Technobliterator | Also, my bachelor's is 3 years, but it might be longer if I take a year out abroad |
| 20:32.48 | DrodoEmpire | test |
| 20:32.53 | Imperios | Magic would be like |
| 20:32.56 | Tybusen | Things like alchemy would probably be able to be studied by non-mages unless alchemy in this world requires magical input from the practicer |
| 20:32.58 | Imperios | Hm, not sure. Language or math? |
| 20:33.21 | Xho | Technobliterator: I might need you and Oluap to help me plan it |
| 20:33.27 | Xho | I'm short on ideas for it |
| 20:33.29 | Imperios | Wait guys |
| 20:33.36 | Technobliterator | I could give you a rough outline |
| 20:33.36 | Imperios | How did we move from high ed to magic |
| 20:33.39 | DrodoEmpire | test |
| 20:33.45 | Technobliterator | and you write it up? |
| 20:33.45 | Wormy_away | I'm struggling with the connection too |
| 20:33.46 | Hachiman | Two years for a single course at the Collegium I suppose, not sure |
| 20:33.46 | Monet | Also maybe supplemental stuff like history and philosophy, |
| 20:33.52 | Hachiman | Basic course that is |
| 20:33.58 | Xho | Eh that makes sense |
| 20:34.06 | Technobliterator | alright |
| 20:34.11 | Hachiman | Also what you need ideas for |
| 20:34.12 | Tybusen | Imperios: We're talking about an institutionalized study of magic |
| 20:34.25 | Wormy_away | In history or hypothetically? |
| 20:34.31 | Imperios | Wormy_away: Funny that you brought up this picture today |
| 20:34.32 | Technobliterator | Arrival of the Xi'Arazulha in Borealis |
| 20:34.35 | Hachiman | Ah |
| 20:34.39 | Technobliterator | We're finally starting the Second Borealis Galactic War |
| 20:34.40 | Technobliterator | rewrite |
| 20:34.47 | Wormy_away | Impy: How come? |
| 20:34.47 | Monet | Imperios: It started when I was trying to work out how long Clotholaire would be at the academy since we've only had the first term. |
| 20:34.52 | Tek0516 | Monet: Here bachelor degrees are usually 4 years, 5 if you do work placements |
| 20:34.55 | Hachiman | Clothovera |
| 20:34.59 | Imperios | Hm |
| 20:35.07 | Imperios | Considering she is already somewhat proficient, probably less |
| 20:35.15 | Imperios | THen again without her book she is not very proficient |
| 20:35.20 | Imperios | less than usual I mean |
| 20:35.31 | Monet | I'm estimating at least three years |
| 20:35.32 | Hachiman | She's training from scratch without Alhazred |
| 20:35.35 | Imperios | Wormy_away: We discussed the usage of the word "blyat" in university today |
| 20:36.06 | Imperios | Our lecturer used it as an example of how the meanings of words, especially interjections, can be malleable |
| 20:36.19 | Wormy_away | I've done degrees in geology and computer game programming/3D (lucky me), so its taken me 4 years to get a BA(Hons) because I switched |
| 20:36.20 | Imperios | She also lamented that the modern generation uses it much more often |
| 20:36.34 | Wormy_away | What does "blyat" actually mean? |
| 20:36.38 | Monet | Hachiman: Right so basically she's at a level most students might be at during their pre-teens. |
| 20:36.40 | Wormy_away | Or its meanings |
| 20:36.47 | Imperios | Wormy_away: "Whore" |
| 20:36.48 | Monet | Wormy_away: bitch |
| 20:36.52 | Hachiman | Eh |
| 20:37.02 | Imperios | But also used in a sense of "FUCK" |
| 20:37.05 | Xho | cyka blyat |
| 20:37.07 | Xho | bitch bitch |
| 20:37.08 | Xho | gg |
| 20:37.11 | Imperios | bitch whore |
| 20:37.23 | Xho | CYKA BLYAT IDI NAHUI |
| 20:37.34 | Wormy_away | So the meme is like saying "Come at me bitch!", in this context |
| 20:37.38 | Tybusen | cheeki breeki |
| 20:37.54 | Monet | Hachiman: A guess. Magic in Koldenwelt seems to me like something taught at an early age. |
| 20:39.13 | Hachiman | It depends on the culture and society I suppose |
| 20:39.14 | Wormy_away | Monet, Tybusen: Here's some lectures on alchemy by Terence Mckenna, might be useful for Koldenwelt stoof http://www.mysterium.com/tmalchemy.html (also video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KT_y_kS_rM ) |
| 20:39.24 | Imperios | now ded |
| 20:39.37 | Wormy_away | Me and Ghel have scoured it for Super Collab alchemy |
| 20:39.39 | Hachiman | For the Sovereignty, there is the state-ran Collegium and then private schools littered all over the place |
| 20:39.51 | Hachiman | And then you have other academies in such in the Sovereignty nations |
| 20:39.56 | Technobliterator | Xho, http://spore.wikia.com/wiki/Fiction:Second_Borealis_Galactic_War/Prologue?action=edit§ion=9 proposed outline here |
| 20:39.59 | Technobliterator | Can you work with this? |
| 20:40.47 | Monet | Hachiman: Maybe. But if we're looking at it from a modern higher education perspective, the groundwork is ideally laid when a student is about...11. |
| 20:42.05 | Hachiman | I'd say that Clothovera already knows much about the basic study, classification, and theory magic, which would be taught for younger students, while she's currently going through the practical and experimental aspects |
| 20:42.12 | Monet | But 11-14 might be prepatory studies; lessons in focus, analytical thinking, language, no spellcraft until maybe age 14. |
| 20:42.16 | Xho | Eh maybe |
| 20:42.40 | Hachiman | She's basically at college-level |
| 20:43.30 | Hachiman | Although she's also receiving a sort of side-course from Alhazred about stuff she missed out by not going through formal magical education |
| 20:43.38 | Hachiman | Of course monitored by the Sovereignty |
| 20:44.06 | Monet | That sounds like a lot of coffee |
| 20:44.36 | Hachiman | Side-courses aren't uncommon, as Szalvetha, Teael, and Pyrath all take them |
| 20:46.10 | Wormy_away | http://imgur.com/gallery/m3Hjc |
| 20:48.15 | Monet | Though I imagine you've already planned how long she'll be studying |
| 20:49.06 | Hachiman | Two years for her first course, though she will be staying on for more courses# |
| 20:49.31 | Xho | needs more necromancy up in dis shit |
| 20:51.12 | Monet | Tek and Wormy might be able to answer for academic courses but along with teaching us how to perform with our skills effectively, university level fosters critical thinking. |
| 20:51.14 | Xho | Hachiman: pm u dunce |
| 20:51.27 | Monet | None of this exam factory BS for me. |
| 20:52.00 | Charles_Murray | DrodoEmpire Monet Tybusen Tek0516 |
| 20:52.01 | Charles_Murray | Hey |
| 20:52.10 | Charles_Murray | Where's imperios? |
| 20:52.21 | Monet | But I can only speak for a vocational study. |
| 20:52.23 | Tybusen | Hello |
| 20:52.30 | Tybusen | Asleep probably |
| 20:52.34 | Tek0516 | Sorry, what's going on? |
| 20:52.40 | Charles_Murray | Ah whoops |
| 20:52.55 | Charles_Murray | If that's so, we have everyone to do the Congress of Paris minus one |
| 20:53.14 | Monet | Tek0516: Can you help weigh in on what university studies are like |
| 20:53.48 | Tek0516 | What exactly about it? |
| 20:54.14 | Monet | Not sure about others but i've found the way university life is shown on TV and in film. is 100%. complete. bull. |
| 20:55.07 | Monet | But I study in a class of 20-30. Not amphitheatres of 200. |
| 20:56.50 | Tek0516 | All my first year and many second year were in the large amphitheatres, but now all but one of mine (a course part of the "Engineering Core") are probably 50-ish people. |
| 20:57.49 | Monet | TV seems to tell us that university life, aside form dormitories, is "it's like you're in school again but everything's bigger" |
| 21:01.29 | Xho | Tybusen: ç§ãã¡ã¯å£ãä½ããªããã°ãªããªãããããããããããï¼ï¼æã«ä½ããã®ããã¾ããã |
| 21:02.00 | Technobliterator | I understand the hiragan |
| 21:02.02 | Technobliterator | a |
| 21:02.06 | Technobliterator | I do not understand the words |
| 21:03.23 | *** join/#sporewiki ImpyDroid (~Anders@95.140.92.93) |
| 21:04.18 | ImpyDroid | Tybusen Monet Xho: https://youtu.be/Egbdx40-zr8 |
| 21:04.19 | ImpyDroid | Wow |
| 21:04.22 | ImpyDroid | I love this woman |
| 21:05.37 | Xho | Technobliterator: watashitachi wa kabe o tsukuranakereba naranai juuichigatsu ni tsukure kono okama yarou try that |
| 21:06.00 | ImpyDroid | EVIL LANGUAGE |
| 21:06.03 | Monet | Imperios: I'm with the cheering back-benchers. |
| 21:06.09 | Technobliterator | I know none of those words q_q |
| 21:06.14 | Technobliterator | I barely remember the words I learnt last year |
| 21:06.20 | Xho | watashitachi wa kabe o tsukuranakereba naranai = WE MUST BUILD A WALL |
| 21:06.24 | Tybusen | Xho: "We must build a wall, in November something something |
| 21:06.27 | Technobliterator | Pfft |
| 21:06.42 | Xho | In November, build it, faggot |
| 21:06.43 | Technobliterator | I know "watashi wa" is "I am" |
| 21:06.44 | Xho | Because offensive af |
| 21:06.57 | Tybusen | The hiragana at the end reads "rayou" instead of "yarou" |
| 21:07.06 | Xho | huh well |
| 21:07.13 | Xho | Microsoft has failed me |
| 21:07.26 | Xho | ããã* |
| 21:07.46 | Monet | Indeed, why ARE universities talking about safe spaces when they are places where you are *supposed* to be challenged. WHere you are *supposed* to open your mind. |
| 21:07.48 | Tybusen | ima ii da yo |
| 21:09.18 | ImpyDroid | Monet: I honestly want to see a real university safe space |
| 21:09.25 | ImpyDroid | It sounds so alien to me, how do they work? |
| 21:10.25 | Tybusen | The ideal of the safe space is a place where people aren't racist/sexist/other categorist towards each other and a person can feel secure in their identity |
| 21:10.52 | Xho | SOUNDS LIKE IT'S FOR WEAK PEOPEL |
| 21:11.25 | Tybusen | It gets abused by SJWs and related regressive leftists to shut down any legitimate criticism of their character |
| 21:11.49 | Monet | Yeah it's basically a place where what you say isn't allowed to be opposed. |
| 21:12.03 | Tybusen | In turn it gets painted by rightists and bigots as an idea that attacks the very principle of free speech |
| 21:12.18 | Technobliterator | So, I completely agree |
| 21:12.20 | Tybusen | In practice it is a free speech limiter though ideally it shouldn't be |
| 21:12.53 | Technobliterator | But more importantly, I dislike how some universities often deny people from speaking |
| 21:12.54 | Tek0516 | My university student government (or specifically the ruling party) has the pleasure of both being corrupt *and* SJWs. |
| 21:13.03 | Tybusen | The idea of the "safe space" is supposed to be the idea "go be an asshole somewhere else" synthesized into a policy |
| 21:13.16 | Technobliterator | If you think their views are deplorable and weaker than yours, what are you afraid of? Just let them speak |
| 21:13.24 | Technobliterator | Mhm |
| 21:13.32 | Technobliterator | In practice, it just leads to echo chambers |
| 21:13.37 | Tybusen | Right |
| 21:13.58 | Tybusen | It's a venerable concept but fails in practice |
| 21:14.41 | DrodoEmpire | It isn't venerable |
| 21:14.43 | Technobliterator | I find that the vast majority of people in higher education don't tend to discriminate much |
| 21:14.56 | DrodoEmpire | Its scientifically invalid, for one thing |
| 21:15.00 | Technobliterator | So while I understand the concept, I find it mostly redundant |
| 21:15.04 | Monet | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:15.08 | DrodoEmpire | So are trigger warnings, even more so |
| 21:15.21 | ImpyDroid | I just do not quite understand what makes them so bad and why they became so bad |
| 21:15.22 | Monet | last* |
| 21:15.30 | Tybusen | I think there's something to be said about the value of trigger warnings |
| 21:15.33 | ImpyDroid | Creating a friendly circle is, in theory, the goal of every person |
| 21:15.35 | DrodoEmpire | No, there really isn;t |
| 21:15.50 | ImpyDroid | ^ Bernie vs Trump |
| 21:15.53 | ImpyDroid | FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT |
| 21:15.57 | Technobliterator | : | |
| 21:16.01 | DrodoEmpire | Its been proven that the best way of dealing with trauma is controlled exposure |
| 21:16.05 | DrodoEmpire | And shut up Impy |
| 21:16.07 | DrodoEmpire | :p |
| 21:16.10 | ImpyDroid | JK |
| 21:16.20 | DrodoEmpire | Not active avoidance |
| 21:16.31 | ImpyDroid | That is actually kind of true |
| 21:16.35 | Monet | ImpyDroid: They became so bad because they became places where SJWs could preach their regressive rhetoric with no fear of being called out. |
| 21:16.39 | DrodoEmpire | ^ |
| 21:16.43 | ImpyDroid | Right |
| 21:16.44 | *** join/#sporewiki Wormy_ (5f937199@gateway/web/freenode/ip.95.147.113.153) |
| 21:16.51 | Wormy_ | http://imgur.com/gallery/zwboV |
| 21:16.58 | DrodoEmpire | And safe spaces are fine insofar as its just a group of mates- that's not what they are |
| 21:17.09 | ImpyDroid | Ah so the initial idea was corrupted |
| 21:17.11 | Technobliterator | I recall that there is some value to them, but once again, it's become abused |
| 21:17.17 | DrodoEmpire | A group of mates or a hobby group is just that, if you must call it a "safe space" then go ahead |
| 21:17.21 | Technobliterator | To the point where trigger warning is now just a pejorative term |
| 21:17.22 | ImpyDroid | Wormy_: https://youtu.be/Egbdx40-zr8 |
| 21:17.42 | Tybusen | Trigger warnings can get ridiculously abused by SJWs but I think that there is a lot of value in ensuring that rape or abuse victims aren't being exposed to something they aren't ready to deal with yet |
| 21:17.43 | ImpyDroid | DrodoEmpire: That is what I was thinking yeah |
| 21:18.05 | Technobliterator | Exactly |
| 21:18.16 | Tybusen | Controlled exposure may be the "best way" to deal with trauma but not everyone who's a victim of trauma is at a stage where they can undergo that |
| 21:18.17 | ImpyDroid | Tybusen: In other words people should show some respect and decency towards their fellow men |
| 21:18.19 | ImpyDroid | Or women |
| 21:18.24 | Tybusen | Yeah |
| 21:18.32 | Technobliterator | Discussing topics like that can remind people of some really traumatic experiences |
| 21:18.37 | Tybusen | That's the entire idea behind trigger warnings and safe spaces |
| 21:18.40 | DrodoEmpire | "best way" in quotes for some reason |
| 21:18.54 | Wormy_ | ImpyDroid: Conservatives stick more consistently to values, I will say this |
| 21:19.03 | ImpyDroid | It is unfortunate that this kind of behaviour kind of breaks in society |
| 21:19.16 | Tybusen | I put it in quotes because I haven't read any academia about treating trauma so I'm taking your word for it |
| 21:19.22 | Technobliterator | Wormy_, that's not true at all |
| 21:19.29 | Monet | Imperios: "people should show some respect and decency towards their fellow men" shame history tells us this is much harder to do than it sounds |
| 21:19.32 | Technobliterator | Look at how whiny they were when someone didn't stand for the national anthem |
| 21:19.32 | Technobliterator | :P |
| 21:19.39 | DrodoEmpire | Like with safe spaces, if you must call ratings or viewer discretion trigger warnings then fine, but its a shaky ideas at best |
| 21:19.42 | DrodoEmpire | *idea |
| 21:19.48 | DrodoEmpire | And its been abused |
| 21:19.52 | ImpyDroid | So it is all about words ultimately |
| 21:19.59 | DrodoEmpire | Now I need to go |
| 21:20.02 | ImpyDroid | The words were corrupted because the ideas were |
| 21:20.19 | Tybusen | Well I was never saying that trigger warnings aren't abused, but where they're used correctly I think they're valuable |
| 21:20.31 | Technobliterator | And how they were calling for Family Guy to be banned when it made a Trump episode |
| 21:20.41 | Wormy_ | Precisely my point. They are not always liberal values, but those values values that do cross-over are less likely to be forgotten |
| 21:20.55 | Technobliterator | Basically, some human beings cannot take criticism at all and would rather cry and shut you up |
| 21:21.05 | Xho | So I just weabooed a sentence and now we're on to politics |
| 21:21.07 | Xho | fucking hell |
| 21:21.18 | Technobliterator | Are we, though? |
| 21:21.21 | Xho | Yes |
| 21:21.23 | Technobliterator | It's just about trigger warnings |
| 21:21.24 | Monet | Xho: You missed the link Impy gave you. |
| 21:21.34 | DrodoAway | Tybusen: Never said you didn't say they weren't being abused |
| 21:21.37 | Technobliterator | and it was probably his that started it |
| 21:21.37 | Technobliterator | yeah |
| 21:21.39 | DrodoAway | Just saying I concur |
| 21:21.45 | DrodoAway | Anyway, I have to go |
| 21:21.46 | Xho | >Parliament THAT'S POLITICAL |
| 21:21.52 | Xho | OR COMEDIC |
| 21:21.53 | Xho | NOT SURE |
| 21:21.59 | Technobliterator | :| |
| 21:22.36 | Monet | Xho: I wouldn't say political because for once it the HoC not acting like a school playground. |
| 21:22.42 | Monet | wouldn't say comedy* |
| 21:22.49 | Wormy_ | Also, I'm talking about Conservative people not necessarily the Tories (which can include liberals) |
| 21:23.43 | Monet | The confusion might have been how this MP was a Tory from Lincolnshire. |
| 21:24.05 | ImpyDroid | Speaking of parliaments |
| 21:24.11 | Technobliterator | oh, now we actually are on politics |
| 21:24.12 | ImpyDroid | We had Duma elections the other day |
| 21:24.12 | Technobliterator | fair enough |
| 21:24.17 | Wormy_ | Classical liberals are big on traditions like democracy or science but are open to self-criticism in order to transform those traditions. While radical lefties might completely act iliberal at times |
| 21:24.27 | ImpyDroid | Only like 30-40% Russians actually went to elections |
| 21:24.31 | Tybusen | Basically there are assholes on the left and right who will shit on people and abuse liberties in the name of their twisted senses of justice |
| 21:24.38 | Technobliterator | ^ |
| 21:24.41 | ImpyDroid | *not giving a fuck intensifies* |
| 21:24.57 | ImpyDroid | How many people actually go to elections where you live? |
| 21:25.01 | Monet | I heard Putin's party won. Again. |
| 21:25.10 | Monet | ImpyDroid 60-70% normally |
| 21:25.37 | Tybusen | 60-70% during presidential years, 30-40% during midterms |
| 21:26.19 | Tybusen | Actually only 50-60% for presidential races even |
| 21:26.24 | Technobliterator | Isn't it only about 50-60? |
| 21:26.38 | Monet | It's going up. |
| 21:26.39 | Technobliterator | I imagine it'll be low this year, though |
| 21:26.50 | Technobliterator | Because both the candidates are disliked |
| 21:27.30 | Monet | The lowest so far was something like 59% in 2011 |
| 21:27.33 | Monet | 2001* |
| 21:27.44 | Tybusen | The turnout will probably depend on whether the shittiness of the candidates will galvanize people on the side of the aisle that's normally opposed to them |
| 21:28.24 | Monet | Technobliterator: http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/files/2010/03/Nonvoters.jpg this chart might fit your 50-60 assumption. |
| 21:28.40 | Tybusen | Even so, Hillary's been having to pull moderate Republican voters because the progressive bloc and other left blocs are starting to jump ship on her, probably |
| 21:28.41 | Technobliterator | oh, my 50-60 assumption was about America |
| 21:28.49 | Monet | ah |
| 21:28.56 | Technobliterator | I thought it would be at least 60-70 in Britain |
| 21:29.13 | Technobliterator | wow |
| 21:29.13 | Monet | Well if you average between presidential and mid-terms then yeah, 50-60% in America. |
| 21:29.18 | Tybusen | They actually found that Gary Johnson spoils Trump more than Jill Stein spoils Hillary, and Hillary-Trump is roughly even right now |
| 21:29.34 | Technobliterator | non voters in younger demographics has risen significantly |
| 21:29.37 | ImpyDroid | Monet: >United Russia won |
| 21:29.49 | ImpyDroid | Also, water is wet |
| 21:30.00 | Technobliterator | Oh, I heard that Gary Johson pulls more from Hillary |
| 21:30.05 | Technobliterator | But I might've heard wrong |
| 21:30.18 | Wormy_ | Technobliterator: My irritation with liberals is that they seem too scared to call out the stupidity of the regressive left encase they look like bigots. More right wing people are less afraid of that (though might have the same problem when criticising each other, maybe), but thats a real problem because it creates a vacuum where only right wing people talk about serious issues and for wrong, illiberal reasons |
| 21:30.23 | Tybusen | Gary Johnson is Libertarian which traditionally captures more from the Republican demographics |
| 21:30.43 | Technobliterator | I agree with your there, Wormy |
| 21:30.51 | Monet | Impydroid: Yeah BBC reports were saying there were allegations of ballot-tampering. |
| 21:30.57 | ImpyDroid | Monet: As always yep |
| 21:31.07 | ImpyDroid | Keep in mind the second most popular party is always the same too |
| 21:31.13 | ImpyDroid | COMMUNISTS |
| 21:31.26 | Tybusen | Though there is a significant portion of the Bernie bloc that came from the right and probably will end up going to Johnson instead of Hillary or the other leftist candidates |
| 21:31.40 | Technobliterator | mhm |
| 21:31.48 | Technobliterator | As in, the guys who were just anti-corruption |
| 21:31.49 | Monet | No wonder voter turnout is so low. "Oh United Russia will probably rig it to win anyway so what's the point?" |
| 21:31.52 | ImpyDroid | We have that same clique of Putin centrists, commies, social democrats and our version of Trump |
| 21:31.53 | Technobliterator | and not necessarily democratic socialists |
| 21:32.05 | ImpyDroid | Exactly |
| 21:32.16 | Wormy_ | I also say this as someone who rates strongly left on the political compass |
| 21:32.23 | ImpyDroid | Granted our opposition is retarded a |
| 21:32.33 | ImpyDroid | They make like a billion parties |
| 21:32.50 | ImpyDroid | That won't even bypass the five percent barrier |
| 21:33.36 | Tybusen | The Bernie bloc I'd say was primarily made up of either anti-corruption people or progressive leftists |
| 21:33.51 | Monet | Technobliterator: It seems...weird that 18-25yo nonvoters dropped slightly under Thatcher but only started rising after John Major got in. |
| 21:34.01 | Tybusen | Anti-corruption people won't vote Hillary, and if they're smart they also won't vote Trump |
| 21:34.24 | Technobliterator | Yeah, I can imagine them rising after Blair |
| 21:34.30 | Technobliterator | But after John Major makes less sense |
| 21:34.43 | Tybusen | Progressive bloc is split between people who refuse to take Hillary's shit and will move to Green or take their chances with Libertarian, and people who follow the "lesser evil" rhetoric |
| 21:35.05 | Wormy_ | What is the Libertarian party like? |
| 21:35.16 | Tybusen | Libertarian is big on freedom |
| 21:35.29 | ImpyDroid | Tybusen: Libertarians as in the snake people? |
| 21:35.40 | Tybusen | They're generally social libertarian and economic liberal |
| 21:35.41 | Monet | Major was like a wet sheet of paper. So bland and indecisive that we all called him the Grey Prime Minister. |
| 21:35.42 | Wormy_ | Lemme guess, with a right wing anti-statist manifesto? |
| 21:35.46 | Tybusen | Yep |
| 21:35.51 | Tybusen | That's Libs in a nutshell |
| 21:36.21 | Wormy_ | The original Lins were left wing in Europe |
| 21:36.29 | Tybusen | On social issues they're very compatible with the progressive left but on economic issues there's going to be disagreements |
| 21:37.47 | Tybusen | There's also the problem that the Libertarian Party officially supports TPP which for a lot of people in the prog bloc is an instant deal-breaker |
| 21:37.48 | Wormy_ | Yeah, I was talking to a leftist about extreme Lib ideas and she asked "Who's going to pay for the roads without taxes", so I concluded private companies would have to get their money from tolls |
| 21:38.13 | Tybusen | Yeah, the Libertarians are big on replacing government services with private enterprise |
| 21:38.50 | Monet | Tybusen: Makes sense Libertarians would support TPP or TTIP. |
| 21:38.56 | Tybusen | They've advocated for replacing public police and fire forces with private forces |
| 21:38.56 | Wormy_ | It would effing suck if every road you used, you would have to pay a toll to use |
| 21:38.59 | Technobliterator | I disagree with most Libertarian ideas, but I respect them a lot more |
| 21:39.27 | Tybusen | Same here, I disagree with the Libertarian platform but I can respect them for being honest at least |
| 21:39.42 | Monet | Tybusen: No fucking no. I for one am totally against turning the police into a mercenary organisation. |
| 21:39.55 | Technobliterator | They seem to actually be fiscally conservative because they believe in it |
| 21:39.57 | Wormy_ | I think people would get horribly stuck in right wing lib societies, in a way Libertarians do not intend |
| 21:40.09 | Technobliterator | As opposed to republicans who claim they are but are actually just pro-rich |
| 21:41.00 | Technobliterator | pro-rigged economy, actually responsible for increasing spending... |
| 21:41.00 | Monet | Ehh Republicans vary depending on where you go |
| 21:41.05 | Wormy_ | I have respect for Libertarian individualism though |
| 21:41.05 | Tybusen | Yeah, Libertarians seem to legitimately believe in small government for the purpose of expanding private freedoms, while Repubs are curtailing government oversight to enhance corporate power |
| 21:41.36 | Tybusen | Though to be fair, the new Democrats are also very guilty of neutering government power to police corporations |
| 21:41.40 | Monet | The Repblican voter base occupy the entire wealth spectrum from Wall Street bankers to rednecks in Alabama. |
| 21:41.55 | Tybusen | Right, I'm talking more about the Republican Party itself rather than their voter base |
| 21:42.39 | Tybusen | There's probably a significant number of people who vote Republican as a matter of a single issue like abortion and might not necessarily agree with the whole platform if they knew what it would do |
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| 21:43.01 | Monet | Yeah I just wonder a little if they're as pro-rich as the Tories if they get so much support from country folk. |
| 21:43.28 | Tybusen | Repubs get the country folk because country folk have a tendency to be socially conservative |
| 21:43.41 | Technobliterator | ^ |
| 21:43.57 | Technobliterator | They get working class by pandering to the religious right and uneducated folks |
| 21:44.40 | Tybusen | I think the decline of unions is also a contributing factor to working-class becoming Republican |
| 21:45.25 | Tybusen | Without unions, there's no one to tell working-class people that they deserve better and it ends up with working-class folks voting against their own best interests |
| 21:45.51 | Xho | Historically speaking further extremities on the political spectrum tend to gather more followings |
| 21:45.58 | Monet | It explains why the working class in this country despise our conservatives - Tories don't pander to religious views. At least, hardly as much as the Republicans do. |
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| 21:46.14 | Technobliterator | Tories are different, they mostly win the cynical vote here |
| 21:46.21 | Technobliterator | As in the "we're the least bad!" vote |
| 21:46.47 | Technobliterator | Most people vote them because they're believed to be the least incompetent party |
| 21:46.56 | Xho | If we take on the concept of anomie i.e. lack of sociopolitical standard only the extremities can provide a substantial and satisfying view to apply social and economic change |
| 21:47.12 | Monet | Well yeah. No trust in Lib Dems and New Labour knew jack about economics. |
| 21:47.38 | Technobliterator | Exactly |
| 21:47.45 | Technobliterator | yeah |
| 21:47.57 | Xho | Which is becoming more prevalent in modern society as globalisation is liquifying homogenous cultures, and conservative world views are picked up by those who don't accept it |
| 21:48.21 | Tybusen | Xho: Well yeah, the more extreme your views are on your society's Overton window, the more likely you'll be a fervent defender of your beliefs |
| 21:48.29 | Monet | Xho: Extremists are much more interesting to watch, so acting like a lunatic gets you more retention time. |
| 21:48.38 | Xho | Welcome to the human condition |
| 21:48.40 | Tybusen | Case in point: Trump |
| 21:48.51 | Xho | Trump, Hitler, Stalin |
| 21:49.00 | Xho | Heck even Lenin to some degree |
| 21:49.25 | Xho | Think of every main figure in political history, for better and for worse and see the circumstances that brough them into that situation |
| 21:49.32 | Tybusen | The irony of the corporate media and Hillary's "scary Trump" strategy is that it might end up helping Trump more than it hurts him |
| 21:49.49 | Xho | brought* |
| 21:50.01 | Tybusen | Everytime they pull the "scary Trump" card it gives Trump free airtime |
| 21:50.33 | Tybusen | And the more they pull it, the more it loses its punch, and the more people see through the "lesser evil" logic and depart for third parties |
| 21:50.48 | Technobliterator | Humans are just tribal in general |
| 21:51.05 | Tybusen | Plus it also entrenches traditional Republican voters who believe in the media's "liberal bias" |
| 21:51.27 | Technobliterator | I have been saying Trump will win from basically the start of the year, I would love to be proven wrong |
| 21:52.21 | Xho | Trump's relationship with the Senate's going to be a pantomime to say the least |
| 21:52.27 | Tybusen | With how much Hillary is struggling to stay afloat against Trump I'll be surprised if Hillary manages to win by any significant margin |
| 21:52.35 | Xho | I don't know enough about American politics but it seems to be more serious than ours |
| 21:52.48 | Wormy_ | A little context: My Grandfather becams staunchly Conservative and was working class (he was a miner, in fact), precisely because he despised by owned by unions. Thatcher offered an alternative that embraced private business and individualism, so he left the mines and set up businesses. He became a staunch lover of Tories and right wingness, he wrote letters to Thatcher every week and came to believe he was running the country |
| 21:52.56 | Tybusen | The irony of all this is that it might be better for the progressive left bloc for Hillary to lose |
| 21:53.02 | Technobliterator | Some believe that it will be |
| 21:53.04 | Wormy_ | *he despised being owned by unions |
| 21:53.10 | Technobliterator | But I disagree because Trump does not believe in climate change |
| 21:53.24 | Technobliterator | We don't have four years to wait anymore |
| 21:53.58 | Wormy_ | So I expect the conservative individualism is an ideology that inspires working class people |
| 21:54.00 | Tybusen | It's the idea that if Hillary gets into office, the progressive left won't be able to challenge her in 2020 and it seems likely she'll galvanize the right to beat her in 2020 |
| 21:54.28 | Tybusen | Meanwhile a Trump victory might force the left to actually reform and win with a progressive candidate in 2020 |
| 21:55.07 | Tybusen | Trump doesn't believe in climate change but I also don't expect Hillary to do nearly enough to save the planet if she does anything at all |
| 21:56.02 | Tybusen | Hillary has Big Oil's interests in mind and will probably forgo climate change legislation to keep that pipeline of sweet sweet oil money flowing in |
| 21:56.12 | Wormy_ | I think its easy to forget that trade unions could be miserable places for country folk to live in |
| 21:58.07 | Hachiman | Shillary Clitfuck lmao |
| 21:58.14 | Hachiman | Sanders betrayed you all |
| 21:58.34 | Technobliterator | it's not like she's healthy enough to run for a second term |
| 21:59.15 | Xho | Hachiman: We got bern'd |
| 21:59.18 | Xho | Quite literally |
| 21:59.29 | Technobliterator | And it's also not like one candidate slightly influenced by big oil - but mostly influenced by how their own legacy will turn out - is even comparable to one denying it's happening at all |
| 22:00.40 | Tybusen | I'm personally of the belief that while Hillary believes climate change is happening, she won't do jack shit about it because her corporate sponsors rely on weak climate legislation |
| 22:00.43 | Wormy_ | I am curious to see a world with Trump as the President |
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| 22:01.54 | Tek_ | IRCCloud stopped working. >.> |
| 22:02.08 | Tybusen | She flipflopped on the Keystone pipeline and hasn't said anything about the Dakota Access pipeline |
| 22:02.11 | Technobliterator | I'm not curious to see us do nothing about climate change and watch the planet burn |
| 22:02.44 | Wormy_ | We are doing northing about it, already |
| 22:03.23 | Monet | Too much money is in the pipelines. |
| 22:03.25 | Technobliterator | And I'd rather do slightly more than nothing than literally nothing |
| 22:03.29 | Wormy_ | Even the greatest measures of sustainability is only purported to push back the trend of climate change a little, at best. Which is no solution |
| 22:03.43 | Technobliterator | Of course, it doesn't matter, the planet will burn anyway, probably within our lifetimes, because human beings are stupid |
| 22:03.46 | Tybusen | Wormy_: Probably because there are a lot of powerful interests out there that rely on the continued use of unsustainable fossil fuels like coal, oil, and natural gas |
| 22:03.55 | Xho | It doesn't take genius to figure out that Hillary Clinton is not much better than Trump |
| 22:04.04 | Wormy_ | Yes, but also it may be too late. |
| 22:04.10 | Hachiman | Needs more Obama |
| 22:04.29 | Tybusen | Obama has been kind of disappointing as a president |
| 22:04.30 | Monet | I think we are doing slightly more https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/feb/11/china-overtakes-eu-to-become-global-wind-power-leader |
| 22:04.41 | Wormy_ | But there is a radical alternative to sustainability: geoengineering |
| 22:04.50 | Monet | http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-37409069 |
| 22:05.58 | Monet | While China still runs of coal, and probably will for some time more, coal power generation is in decline. |
| 22:06.07 | Wormy_ | I believe governments should be investing a lot more money into technological research that might slow or reverse climate change; into GM crops that can survive drought, increased salination, etc.; and we should research ways of adapting our own ways of life to warmer global climate |
| 22:06.23 | Tybusen | Monet: The question is if it's declining fast enough |
| 22:06.25 | Wormy_ | That is the only way we can solve problems |
| 22:07.01 | Monet | Tybusen: We might already be past the tipping point so the best we can do is minimise the damage we're still making. |
| 22:07.21 | Technobliterator | Yeah, "slightly more" |
| 22:07.26 | Technobliterator | It's still not enough |
| 22:07.40 | Technobliterator | The planet will die and within our lifetimes |
| 22:08.14 | Tybusen | Born too late to explore the world, born too early to explore the galaxy |
| 22:08.19 | Tybusen | Born just in time to be swallowed into the sun |
| 22:08.29 | Wormy_ | I recall having a lecture that we are past the tipping point and the planet is going to continue warming even if we cut carbon emissions at their most optimistic levels. And there's positive feedback cycles, like release methane clathrates |
| 22:08.54 | Monet | I disagree the Earth will die. It just won't be as comfortable for humans as it used to be. |
| 22:09.04 | Xho | Nature will reclaim itself |
| 22:09.09 | Monet | Exactly |
| 22:09.13 | Xho | Even if it destroys humanity in the process |
| 22:09.21 | Tybusen | I remember there being a CO2 level that climate scientists said that we should absolutely try to avoid crossing, but we already crossed it years ago |
| 22:09.23 | Wormy_ | I also believe humankind can adapt to the warming trend. |
| 22:09.34 | Monet | We're more vulnerable than the planet is. |
| 22:09.36 | Hachiman | Already happening in places like Chernobyl |
| 22:09.48 | Monet | Chernobyl is a little different |
| 22:10.01 | Tybusen | Humanity is adaptable but whether we can adapt in time is the question |
| 22:10.42 | Tybusen | We're already seeing the effects of global warming on social stability, because one of the causes of the Syrian Civil War was famine and drought caused by rising temperatures and increasingly scarce water sources |
| 22:10.53 | Monet | One issue is how adaptable are we now when so many are in denial things are changing? |
| 22:10.57 | Wormy_ | I think fundamentally we need to realise our civilisation and way of life is unsustainable. So that means acquiring new knowledge in chaging the environments and ourselves. As we have always done, in fact. |
| 22:11.30 | Wormy_ | I think that means engineering the planet |
| 22:11.37 | Wormy_ | Sorry Greens, you can stuff off |
| 22:11.49 | Technobliterator | Humanity will die, sure |
| 22:12.02 | Technobliterator | Because it's a stupid piece of shit species |
| 22:12.09 | Tybusen | If nothing else, when we run out of oil in 2050 that will be the telltale sign of whether we live on as a species or kill ourselves |
| 22:12.10 | Technobliterator | And will probably bring every species on the earth down with it |
| 22:12.12 | Wormy_ | Uhh, no |
| 22:12.41 | Wormy_ | Earth's environment is changing because of our civilisation is a pretty epic and unprecedented thing in the known universe |
| 22:12.58 | Tybusen | I don't think we will cause a collapse of Earth's entire biosphere, but at the current rate we're going the biosphere will end up looking very different from today |
| 22:13.07 | Wormy_ | An environmental that was previously shaped by the activities of life |
| 22:13.10 | Technobliterator | No, it's dying because a bunch of greedy fucks think short term profits is more important than the wellbeing of everything alive |
| 22:13.17 | Tybusen | End of the world as we know it, sure, not exactly end of the world full stop |
| 22:13.18 | Monet | I think humans are too hardy to die off. |
| 22:13.21 | Hachiman | Earth hasn't stayed the same all throughout its lifetime |
| 22:13.32 | Hachiman | It has undergone radical ecological, global changes |
| 22:13.33 | Technobliterator | Our best hope is that whatever species inherits the earth after us does not repeat our mistakes |
| 22:13.50 | Wormy_ | @Hachi: Precisely, so this is the Anthropocene |
| 22:13.56 | Monet | The thing is there are seven billion of us. |
| 22:14.04 | Hachiman | Also, if we've survived an Ice Age, we can survive the fall of civilisation |
| 22:14.21 | Hachiman | Or at least, our descendants could |
| 22:14.47 | Monet | Look at rats. Look at how impossible to threaten rats are. |
| 22:15.10 | Wormy_ | I think our civilisation could survive a changing environment, let alone speak of its collapse... |
| 22:15.24 | Wormy_ | Not saying it will, but it can |
| 22:15.51 | Tybusen | It could, but we're not currently in a position to handle the new burdens of a warmer world |
| 22:15.53 | Monet | Humans have established themselves in practically every environment. That means that whatever changes happen to the planet, some group, somewhere, might know how to survive it. |
| 22:16.01 | Wormy_ | Why not? |
| 22:16.33 | Wormy_ | We're in a better position than any of our ancestors, who did not understand why their environment was changing |
| 22:16.34 | Tybusen | As I said, Syria is an example of the new pressures introduced by climate change contributing to societal collapse |
| 22:17.04 | Tybusen | Except our ancestors, for most of their history, were not in danger of climate change like we are |
| 22:17.09 | Xho | Wormy_: We name a period of history after ourselves we must be destroyed |
| 22:17.31 | Xho | The Earth has gone through numerous mass extinction events |
| 22:17.48 | Xho | Humanity's in line for another one and the Earth will continue after that |
| 22:18.10 | Wormy_ | That is simply not true. Many civilisations died because their environments became unfavourable, and solutions that could have saved those peoples were no available because they did not have the relevant knowledge to do so. |
| 22:18.25 | Tybusen | And with both climate change deniers and fossil fuel corporate interests still abound in our society, I don't know if we're ready as a society to adapt |
| 22:18.45 | Tybusen | We might have the know-how but because we are socially unready we cannot apply those solutions |
| 22:18.50 | Wormy_ | Our civilisation *has* the creativity and methods to generate potential solutions, whether it will is another matter |
| 22:18.54 | Xho | Well we'd ought to start implementing solutions sooner rather than later otherwise we'll go off on a tangent and we will collapse as a species |
| 22:19.16 | Tybusen | Right, I'm not saying we're not capable of solving the problem |
| 22:19.31 | Tybusen | The problem is that we refuse to solve it or are duped into thinking it's not a problem |
| 22:20.31 | Tybusen | It's possible we might have already solved it without Big Oil and anti-sustainability interests getting in the way |
| 22:20.49 | Wormy_ | I don't worry too much about corporate interests. They will change when they smell the beans in new forms of profit |
| 22:21.51 | Tybusen | True, but the thing about corporate interests, especially those in energy, they are interested in sabotaging newer technologies in order to kill potential competition that could obsolete them |
| 22:22.26 | Tybusen | I'd imagine solar and wind could be more widespread if it wasn't for Big Oil's propaganda campaigns |
| 22:22.34 | Wormy_ | Maybe, but they may eventually have to aapt themselves if they are to survive when we're long past peak oil or coal production |
| 22:23.03 | Tybusen | Corporations don't tend to plan for the future like that though |
| 22:23.06 | Monet | Tybusen's evidence is in the BBC article I linked. |
| 22:23.24 | Tybusen | They're interested only in short-term profits and currently the big money is in oil |
| 22:23.37 | Monet | China is trying to convert to renewables but Chinese coal energy corporations still lobby for preferential treatment. |
| 22:23.41 | Wormy_ | So if they don't evolve and due off, that's there own fault. |
| 22:23.47 | Wormy_ | *their |
| 22:24.18 | Tybusen | Right, but because of that it's in their best interests to stave off the time when they are forced to adapt by market pressures |
| 22:24.33 | Monet | http://www.forbes.com/sites/adrianswinscoe/2016/07/01/could-ltse-be-the-answer-for-large-companies-that-want-to-pursue-customer-centricity/#7af7f52266fc this might hel pchange the corporate mindset |
| 22:25.01 | Tybusen | And so oil companies will campaign against initiatives to expand solar and wind integration because it extends the lifetime of oil |
| 22:25.21 | Wormy_ | Meanwhile, civilisation could still survive on a warmer planet and will have a rise in new corporations based on newer, more innovative energy sources |
| 22:25.29 | Technobliterator | It's corruption and greed, plain and simple |
| 22:25.46 | Wormy_ | But its not "the end of humanity" |
| 22:25.57 | Technobliterator | These people should just be shot and killed or forced to choke on the gases that they poison the air with, what they're basically doing is murder |
| 22:26.25 | Tybusen | Wormy_: True but that future relies on an optimism that we'll have integrated alternative energy enough by 2050 that we're not killing each other over the limited sources of oil |
| 22:27.04 | Tybusen | One of the big problems with the oil supply running dry is not just energy production, it's also the production of plastics which are used nearly everywhere nowadays |
| 22:27.09 | Wormy_ | Not really, because optimism is say that will happen. I'm just saying it *can* happen. |
| 22:27.36 | Monet | Technobliterator: That's...dark. I know these tycoons have irrevocavly reversed the planet but does language like that make us any better than eco-terrorists? |
| 22:27.41 | Tybusen | It can, but will it happen? The current situation doesn't look super bright to me |
| 22:27.48 | Monet | changed the planet* |
| 22:27.51 | Wormy_ | Anyway, I agree it won't be rosy and that is exactly why I feel we aren't doing enough |
| 22:28.12 | Technobliterator | They're literally murdering people, just because it will take a few decades for that murder doesn't mean it's anything other than murder |
| 22:28.26 | Monet | And so killing them is justifiable. |
| 22:28.52 | Tybusen | I *want* to believe in a brighter more sustainable future, but the reality of the current situation is that the people in charge are too interested in themselves and their short-term profits to give a shit about the fact that the ship is veering straight into the iceberg |
| 22:29.50 | Wormy_ | The picture I have painted tonight is not a future that is sustainable. |
| 22:30.09 | Wormy_ | It is one that relies on rapid innovation and self-criticism |
| 22:30.12 | Monet | I'm environmentally conscious myself but I don't advocate executing someone because they built a career off exploitation. |
| 22:30.38 | Wormy_ | Also Jo, you benefit from such exploitation. |
| 22:30.52 | Tybusen | I don't think corporate fat cats should be executed per se but I feel like some of them definitely deserve to spend the rest of their lives in prison |
| 22:31.12 | Monet | Tybusen: I much prefer the mto face corporate accountability. |
| 22:31.15 | Wormy_ | The rare earth metals in your monitor and phone likely came from some mine in Africa or East Asia with incredible human rights abuses |
| 22:31.55 | Monet | Silicon Valley was built off corporate exploitation. |
| 22:31.55 | Tybusen | Wormy_: Though we do benefit from this exploitation, should that mean we want to continue benefitting from it? |
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| 22:33.09 | Monet | The startup billionaires of Silicon Valley may not be throwing contaminants into the air themselves, but they rely on cheap rare-earth metals from China, and a gullible domestic and foreign market. |
| 22:33.44 | Wormy_ | Good question, but you can't speak of murdering people in power and then declare yourself as not answerable |
| 22:33.48 | Tybusen | And for some people, they have no choice but to benefit from the exploitation because the cheapest varieties of certain commodities only come from sources utilizing a lot of exploited labor and resources |
| 22:34.12 | Wormy_ | No choice? Actually you do have choice |
| 22:34.31 | Tybusen | I'm saying for people who are too poor to afford sustainably-made products |
| 22:35.06 | Wormy_ | Become a DIY punk, use scrap metal, live off the grid and join the local guerrilla gardeners. |
| 22:35.08 | Tybusen | Not everyone can afford to pay extra for the assurance that their food or clothing was produced humanely and cleanly |
| 22:35.46 | Tybusen | And ironically these same people are likely victims of corporate exploitation themselves |
| 22:36.07 | Wormy_ | No, they are just posers. I know some very poor people who none-the-less, strive for this sort of lifestyle |
| 22:36.40 | Wormy_ | But alas, I like my Android phone |
| 22:36.58 | Monet | Cheap labour has been the backbone of industry since the 1700s. Maybe long before |
| 22:37.21 | Tybusen | Wormy_: You can like your Android phone and also wish that it was made more sustainably |
| 22:38.05 | Wormy_ | I wish the metals in it came from asteroids, or that is was possibly made from wetware, or synthetically produced compounds |
| 22:38.28 | Wormy_ | And that those asteroids were mined not by people, but by probes |
| 22:38.33 | Tybusen | Unfortunately technology hasn't developed quite *that* much yet |
| 22:38.40 | Wormy_ | But its developing that way |
| 22:38.49 | Tybusen | Right, it gives hope for the future |
| 22:39.06 | Monet | But part of the way technology devleops is the flawed prececcessors catch on |
| 22:39.20 | Wormy_ | I'd like to give an example of where progress has indeed exceeded the expectations of the worst pessimists and has led to new kinds of industry: coloured television sets |
| 22:39.46 | Monet | Imagine if the staff at Bletchley Park thought "right, this method of punchcards and vacuum tubes is too impractical, let's keep working until we create the transistor" |
| 22:40.58 | Tybusen | Well, the thing about that is that the "flawed predecessor" was cutting-edge at the time of its discovery |
| 22:41.05 | Tybusen | We only know it was flawed in hindsight |
| 22:41.10 | Wormy_ | The element europium was used on some of the first coloured TV screens to create red phosphors on the screen. It happens to be an extremely rare element, with total reserves estimated to be only enough for several million television sets |
| 22:42.00 | Wormy_ | At the time many scientists wrongly predicted that TV would return to the black and white format |
| 22:43.15 | Monet | It is a shame that the current-model Android phone is made with unsustainable materials and rare-earth metals. But that's the best we can achieve at the moment. |
| 22:43.16 | Wormy_ | Because no other elements were known to glow red at this particular energy level |
| 22:44.19 | Wormy_ | Yet it wasn't long after these pessimistic predictions that liquid crystal displays were developed, and would not require the use of cathode ray tubes to illuminate television sets |
| 22:44.32 | Tybusen | Monet: Exactly, and now that we are aware of the flaws of the current design we can make efforts to develop better models |
| 22:45.32 | Wormy_ | Point is, we can't predict future problems or indeed future knowledge, ahead of time. To ther rational optimist, you can only solve problems |
| 22:45.57 | Monet | If I were to be optimistic, I'd say Apple's model is keeping them afloat and supports the research that would allow us to develop the kind of phone Wormy wishes for. |
| 22:46.34 | Wormy_ | The world isn't being held back by greedy europium miners; nor have we run out of coloured television. If anything, our screens can display millions of more colours at higher precision |
| 22:46.39 | Wormy_ | THat is my optimism |
| 22:47.39 | Wormy_ | That's why I ache at comments like "world is warming up, civilisation will collapse!" "humanity will die because things will become uncomfortable" - well news for you, things already are |
| 22:48.14 | Tybusen | The world keeps turning, and each new day is a chance for a new step towards the future |
| 22:48.24 | Wormy_ | And indeed, I don't worry particularly too much about regressive corporations. If they don't keep up, they too will suffer. |
| 22:48.34 | Xho | Hachiman: https://www.facebook.com/LADbible/videos/2917710694942768/?hc_ref=NEWSFEED Meanwhile |
| 22:48.52 | Wormy_ | Even if their goals are short term, they have displayed adapatibility |
| 22:49.37 | Monet | Species like the giant panda, Bengal tiger, clouded leopard or any number of endangered species have a fairly specific list of conditions that allow them to thrive. |
| 22:49.46 | Tybusen | I personally don't have confidence in the oil corporations to do something that will lead to their obsoletion in the interest of human civilization, but who knows |
| 22:49.58 | Monet | Humans on the other hand have proven to thrive just about anywhere. |
| 22:50.11 | Tybusen | I don't think change will come from the oil corporations, but perhaps it will come from somewhere nonetheless |
| 22:50.15 | Wormy_ | Well, when oil does run dry for example |
| 22:50.34 | Tybusen | True, but to a corporation, 2050 is a long time away |
| 22:50.43 | Wormy_ | Or maybe newer sources of energy will come to outcompete them eventually |
| 22:50.47 | Monet | It might make some sense for big oil to invest in biofuels. |
| 22:51.07 | Wormy_ | The Japanese are already researching space-based transmission of solar energy |
| 22:51.10 | Tybusen | I've observed many times where companies and corporate folk can be incredibly shortsighted, not just in the energy sector |
| 22:52.01 | Monet | I've been reading into the rise and fall of Chrysler's Lee Iacocca. |
| 22:52.08 | Tybusen | Right, the hope is that the natural forward march of science and society will overcome the limiting influences of short term profit margins |
| 22:52.26 | Tybusen | And hoping that turning point happens before it's too late |
| 22:52.31 | Tybusen | Anyways I have to go for a bit |
| 22:52.40 | Wormy_ | cya |
| 22:53.00 | Xho | I think it might be time to take it to off topic |
| 22:53.05 | Wormy_ | I think my argument is that in the big picture, it has had success in doing that |
| 22:53.07 | Xho | It's gone a bit overflow |
| 22:53.37 | Wormy_ | Alrighty |
| 22:54.48 | Monet | QUite the dialogue |
| 23:01.14 | *** join/#sporewiki Charles_Murray (c0f6eafb@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.246.234.251) |
| 23:02.21 | Wormy_ | I don't want to give the impression that I think adapting to climate change will be easy, let me say that out loud. From a humanitarian perspective, yes one can forsee it will spur on great difficulties and the effects already are. |
| 23:03.34 | Wormy_ | Say Bangladesh's waters rise even more and millions get displaced, where can they go? |
| 23:03.38 | Wormy_ | etc. |
| 23:05.01 | Charles_Murray | "To make a people great it is necessary to send them to battle even if you have to kick them in the pants. That is what I shall do." -Benito Mussolini |
| 23:05.07 | Charles_Murray | Poetry right there |
| 23:08.50 | Monet | Lol |
| 23:12.18 | Tek0516 | ~test |
| 23:12.19 | infobot | test is, like, not funny |
| 23:12.30 | Tek0516 | Oh yay, it works again |
| 23:22.15 | Wormy_ | I have a feeling there is increased interest in space mining. The law for it is already being contemplated and drafted. NASA and some other space agencies are contemplating material-return missions, and there are several startup companies who want to put telescopes and probes in space to test technologies for observing the composition of asteroids |
| 23:23.11 | Wormy_ | The second of those are mainly scientific missions, but it will also testing the same sorts of technology |
| 23:23.23 | Wormy_ | *be testing |
| 23:23.47 | Wormy_ | But of course it will likely take decades for such an industry to get established |
| 23:25.29 | Wormy_ | Now, if my understanding of the natural resources module hasn't been forgotten, if mining metals from asteroids becomes economically cheaper than mining the same metals on Earth (particularly, rare-earth elements which are more abundant in space), one can predict that mines for the same elements will shrink on Earth |
| 23:26.10 | Wormy_ | Because the cost of mining and processing will outweight the benefit of mining some orebody |
| 23:26.20 | Wormy_ | *outweigh |
| 23:29.58 | Wormy_ | Usually an orebody's percentage of minerals from waste rock is predicted in the "prospect" stage of a mining venture, too low and it may not be deemed economical because of the lifetime and cost of gaining that resource (and of course, economic factors) |
| 23:30.49 | Wormy_ | Asteroids, and the surface of the moon is littered with elements that are rare on Earth's surface, stuff that's useful in electronics. |
| 23:32.05 | Wormy_ | My, perhaps naive hope, is that mines on Earth will shrink as a result and that these mines will be largely automated |
| 23:32.51 | Wormy_ | Less strip mining of rainforests, pollution and human blood |
| 23:44.04 | Wormy_ | Monet: I have collected a roomful of minerals over the years, some quire rare and exotic in appearence, property or quality. But I do worry about the conditions people in the mine or quarry where they were extracted were like |
| 23:44.21 | Wormy_ | I try to collect ones where I know the locality |
| 23:49.03 | Monet | It's a difficult thing to be sure of. |
| 23:50.25 | Monet | Mentioning Star Trek. |
| 23:51.05 | Monet | For a long time I always thought the Cardassians were meant to be the Imperial Japanese. |
| 23:52.00 | Monet | I used to watch Tenko so always imagined DS9 was a stand-in for Singapore. |
| 23:55.03 | Wormy_ | Makes sense |
| 23:56.04 | Monet | Cardassian elements like fish sauce and being obsessed with duty miiight have bordered on offensive |
