IRC log for #sporewiki on 20160921

00:44.30DrodoEmpiretest
00:59.53DrodoEmpireLiquid_Ink what's your fiction?
01:00.01DrodoEmpireI can't recall
02:38.35DrodoEmpiretest
02:45.07DrodoEmpire"Julie outlined the difficulty of submitting bills to an insurance company in Cleveland when the dental clinic was in Thuringia and displaced four centuries in time."
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06:58.48Liquid_InkIMPY
06:58.52Liquid_InkHappy birthday
07:05.13*** join/#sporewiki ImpyDroid (~Anders@195.19.236.58)
07:25.56ImpyDroidLiquid_Ink: Thanksio
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11:41.42*** join/#sporewiki ImpyDroid (~Anders@host-43-157-66-217.spbmts.ru)
11:42.05ImpyDroidHiya
11:42.51OluapPlayerHi
11:42.56OluapPlayerHappy birthday
11:44.02ImpyDroidYiy
11:44.05ImpyDroidThanks ^^
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11:54.37Wormy_hi
11:55.15TechnobliteratorHappy birthday, ImpyDroid :o
11:56.03Wormy_ooh, happy birthday
12:46.28Tek0516https://youtu.be/TnzcwTyr6cE New Kurtzegatt (that name is hard. >.>)
12:46.38Tek0516Kuzgesagt
12:46.58Tek0516*Kurzgesagt
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13:19.25MonetHello
13:20.14Tek0516Hello Monet
13:20.36*** join/#sporewiki Monet2 (~Monet47@82-132-224-158.dab.02.net)
13:20.56Tek0516Ugh, my bus is 15 minutes late *again*.
13:21.10Tek0516Hello Monet2
13:22.10Tek0516So if a bus is consistently 10-15 minutes late every day is it really late or just poorly scheduled. >.>
13:31.51Monet2Poorly scheduled probably
13:38.04Wormy_Meanwhile, in China https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DanEWsQ-zxc
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13:55.46Wormy_"If your hands look like this, the keyboard is the least of your problems" http://i.imgur.com/t5yTcWR.jpg
13:56.57OluapPlayerstarfish fingers
14:19.53Wormy_I agree with this assessment https://www.reddit.com/r/NoMansSkyTheGame/comments/53no20/on_exploration_and_no_mans_sky_why_no_mans_sky/
14:20.51Wormy_I was under the impression that environmentals and lifeforms would be contextual with each other (i.e. stocky creatures on high gravity planets), we were tol the game would have such filters
14:22.07Wormy_It would have been cool if if my suit used more energy to walk on such planets for example
14:25.24Wormy_I have a pipe dream of making a game with as complex dynamics as SimEarth
14:25.37Monet2That might have required complex algorithms
14:26.43Monet2Well, extra complex algorithms
14:27.16Wormy_Would have needed more, but nothing radical.  NMS does have filters, you'll find more of resource X on planet Y for example.  And Space Engine seems to position everything rationally.
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14:29.12Wormy_If I was to make a game like SimEarth, everything would have an explanatory context
14:29.37HachimanHi
14:30.23HachimanIf I was to make a game like SimEarth, I'd lie during promos about features it would have, use footage that isn't actually in the game, and vastly exaggerate its abilities and experience
14:31.40OluapPlayerLet's not
14:31.40Wormy_One would make the planet, allow it to evolve based on the relative abundances of elements (so position in the solar system); perhaps have several of speculative biochemistry that might form on the planet, and then procedural generate life at each turn but with a rational context to its environment's characteristics
14:33.17Wormy_It'd be Space Engine + SimEarth + Species: Alife
14:34.00Wormy_A Spore space stage or NMS style exploration of other player's planets would be the cream of the cake
14:34.28Wormy_for me
14:34.58Wormy_Oh and it WILL have all the astronomical phenomena
14:35.35Wormy_I was disappointed nebulae (as objects), supernoae and pulsars weren't included in the final Spore game
14:36.31Wormy_But I'm a loooong way from coding complex algorithms
14:38.06Wormy_But I'm beginning my Masters in Computer Science next week!
14:39.32Monet2Sweet news!
14:40.38Wormy_<PROTECTED>
14:41.14Monet2Shiny
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14:43.39HachimanHi
14:46.43Monet2Hello
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14:53.44Wormy_I'm stuck for choice on optional modules
14:55.09Wormy_Modules on agents, AI, simulations and info visualisation particuarly interest me but now so is the module on computational complexity theory
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15:18.29Wormy_Its quite a somber article when a group of researchers move therir digital archaeology mission to the question of "what happens to a universe that is abandoned" http://www.cbc.ca/news/arts/no-mans-sky-archaeology-1.3768986
15:18.36dino82_hi
15:22.39ImperiosHiya mates
15:24.25Technobliteratorhi imp
15:24.31Technobliteratorhappy birthday, yo
15:28.05Wormy_Hachiman, Monet2:  http://imgur.com/r/NoMansSkyTheGame/jwZ99
15:28.57Wormy_Stephen Baxter almost fortold NMS hur
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15:30.40TreebeardHello
15:33.19ImperiosTechnobliterator: Thx
15:33.41Tek0516Wormy_: that image doesn't exist. :/
15:34.39Wormy_Tek:  Try http://i.imgur.com/ABxsZks.jpg
15:35.19Tek0516Huh
15:42.56Tek0516I've recently really started reading sci-fi again. Used to read a lot of it but just didn't have much since I started university, but I got the next books in a series for my dad earlier. Read more this month than I had in most of the past year. XD
15:44.15dino82_Hi1
15:44.44Tek0516Hey dino
15:49.51Wormy_Been reading Dragon's Egg by Robert Forward and Clockwork Rocket by Greg Egan
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15:53.26NeonPandahi all
15:54.17TreebeardHello
15:54.24Tek0516The series I'm reading now is Fleet of Worlds by Larry Niven.
15:54.33Tek0516Hello NeonPanda
15:57.14ImperiosHiya Panda
15:57.26ImperiosNeonPanda: http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Waltzing_Matilda
15:58.59Imperios"Reasons for the strong empathy Australians feel for this song include: It's easy to remember while drunk It makes fun of homeless people It makes fun of the police It has a sheep in it"
15:59.48NeonPandanot entirely far off
15:59.52NeonPandathe page that is
15:59.57NeonPandanot the part you just put up
16:00.40NeonPandait's mostly just because it's one of the relatively few things we can generally call "Australian"
16:05.33ImperiosIs that because it is incomprehensible to everyone else?
16:12.59NeonPandato be fair, that applies to basically anything from any culture
16:13.21NeonPandaand no, it's because it was written by a bush poet
16:18.43ImperiosWormy_: http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Northern_Ireland
16:18.57HachimanImperios: wryyyyd doctrina
16:19.03Imperiosrightio
16:21.01ImperiosIN THEIR TONGUE
16:21.03ImperiosHE'S PYRATH
16:21.16ImperiosDRAGONBORN
16:22.04Hachimanu shudnt b at dat part yet
16:22.10Hachimanur reedin 2 quickly
16:22.15ImperiosBehold the art of skimming
16:22.27Hachimandunt skim when it took dis much work u fukn niggo
16:23.01ImperiosI'll just skim it two times
16:23.09ImperiosBasically the same as normal reading
16:23.38ImperiosI mean most of that text is just detailed purple prose hur
16:23.53Hachiman;-;
16:24.23HachimanI suffer from the fact I don't know how to balance prose
16:25.01ImperiosAnd speaking of prose
16:25.03Imperios"Y-Ya won't... even tell me the cause ya k-killed him for...! "
16:25.07ImperiosThat sentence feels unnatural
16:25.17Imperios"tell me why ya killed him" would sound a lot better
16:25.30ImperiosSorry for being a nitpicking grammarnazi hur
16:25.41Hachiman"W-What has he ever done... to d-deserve to die, eh?! W-What has any of us done?! ... A-Answer me!"
16:26.03HachimanSo he did ask your nitpicker
16:26.07Hachiman*you
16:26.17ImperiosNo I mean
16:26.30ImperiosTHat sentence's structure sounds unnatural
16:26.40HachimanRight
16:26.42ImperiosI am talking about the choice of words in that particular sentence
16:26.46ImperiosNot the overall storyline
16:27.02Imperios"Tell me the cause you killed him for" sounds weird
16:27.07Wormy_Tek0516:  Is that in the Ringworldverse?
16:27.40ImperiosAlso Hungarian name elf is a dick
16:27.47Tek0516Wormy_: Yeah, the main plot takes place around 200 years before the Ringworld novels if I recall.
16:27.49ImperiosEastern European name elf
16:27.59Wormy_Pierson's Puppeteers had a fleet of worlds in Ringworld
16:28.15HachimanSzalvetha is a dick yes hur
16:28.38ImperiosEither Hungarian or Polish
16:28.55Tek0516Yeah, the Fleet of Worlds in that series is the same as this one. The series is set primarily in and around the Fleet itself.
16:29.04ImperiosActually wait do you pronounce it the Polish way or the Hungarian way?
16:29.17Imperios"Sal-ve-tha" or "Shal-ve-tha"?
16:29.29HachimanThe former for myself, personally
16:29.50Wormy_Imperios:  I love how accurate this is http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Nottingham
16:29.52ImperiosSo the Hungarian way
16:30.09ImperiosSzalvetha hates dem refugees
16:30.41Imperios>sometimes spelled Robbin' Hoody in earlier texts
16:32.32ImperiosOverall
16:32.36ImperiosThat was kind of cool
16:32.43ImperiosIT had that Red Wedding-kind of feel
16:32.53ImperiosRed WEdding + Deathly Hallows
16:33.31HachimanThanks
16:34.30Tek0516Wormy_: The basic concept for the series is that centuries before the Puppeteers had captured a human colony ship, grew the embryos they had in storage, and made essentially a slave/servant human colony for the Fleet.
16:35.43Wormy_In Ringworld, it was revealed that the Puppeteers were quietly engineering generations of species
16:38.23Wormy_Imperios:  "Radford - Statiscally, you have a greater chance of meeting an unnatural death here by standing outside the KFC than anywhere else in the country."  Well, I got stung be a bee on the neck's jugular region in the urban jungle
16:38.40Tek0516Yeah, it seems this contains some foreshadowing (though I'm not sure if that's started yet) to that.
16:39.24Tek0516One of the main characters is the Puppeteer Nessus, also from Ringworld (only 200 years older presumably).
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16:41.08Wormy_Is Nessus any less cowardly?
16:41.10Wormy_Hi
16:41.59Imperios>The weather in Iraq is generally Sunni in the north and Shite in the south, with some Kurdstorms in the f
16:42.22TreebeardHello
16:43.23Tek0516Actually the one part I found interesting with the second book in the series is that a lot of things I (having read no other books in that universe) assumed were new concepts introduced for the series were actually established by the writer decades before. Much of the book is even apparently essentially several other stories told from the perspective of a
16:43.23Tek0516minor character in the universe.
16:44.26Wormy_That's good
16:44.29Tek0516Wormy_: Nah, they're all pretty cowardly. And most of the ones we actually see are the ones considered borderline "insane" for being less cowardly, with Nesss being one of the least so.
16:45.05Wormy_He suffered such an extreme exposure to fears in Ringworld (I won't spoil),, it'd be a shame if he didn't toughen up
16:45.12Wormy_But he was very cowardly in Ringworld
16:45.47Wormy_Wait 200 years before
16:46.09HachimanImperios: So apparently GW made an entire army list in 1991 for a Genestealer Cult which had turned to Chaos
16:46.18Tek0516Yes, around 200 years before.
16:46.21ImperiosI've heard of it
16:46.28Hachimanhttp://www.belloflostsouls.net/2016/09/genestealer-cult-chaos-awesome.html
16:47.40Tek0516Wormy_: Actually exactly 200 years. Ringworld begins in 2850, the first book in Fleet of Worlds is primarily set in 2650.
16:47.52Tek0516(According to a quick search)
16:48.09OluapPlayer_jeanstealers
16:48.28Wormy_I'll have to give it a read
16:48.30Wormy_bbl
16:58.26*** part/#sporewiki Nine_Eyes_ (~IceChat9@2601:6c0:4202:1ad0::f608)
16:59.34Tek0516Wormy_: Did Ringworld show much from non-humans? Probably half the book is from the perspective of various non-humans so I'm curious if that was also the case there
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17:20.44Wormy_Tek0516:  Only two of the main characters were human
17:21.40Wormy_I think it did dip into the perspecties of other characters but was mainly from a human one
17:24.49Tek0516It's mostly here's quite a bit from several puppeteers, and this book has a few chapters from the perspective of a couple other aloens that pop up
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17:37.11CyrannianHi everyoe
17:37.15OluapPlayer_~kick Cyrannian
17:37.15infobotACTION kicks Cyrannian
17:37.20Cyrannian~tickle OluapPlayer_
17:37.20infobotACTION jumps on OluapPlayer_, yelling "TICKLE FIGHT!!!!"
17:37.23Charles_BotHey Cyra
17:42.19Tek0516Hello
17:42.24dino82_hi
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17:50.44OluapPlayer_sponge
17:51.11XhoSDFGH
17:51.11Cyrannianhai
17:51.34OluapPlayer_write xi'arazulha intro for borewar pls
17:51.41HachimanXho: doctrina dun got an update
17:51.41Xhogimme paeg
17:51.49XhoEither or
17:52.16Hachimanhttp://spore.wikia.com/wiki/Fiction:Doctrina_Venefica#4.2F12.2F34:_A_Massacre...
17:52.22HachimanFuck sake
17:52.25Xhokek
17:52.28XhoI found the page anyway
17:52.35dino82_Rambo Nation arrives in Borealis!: http://spore.wikia.com/wiki/Fiction:Captain%27s_log#Part_2:_Ancient_Ship
17:52.38Hachimana masaka
17:52.58OluapPlayer_yes that too
17:53.33XhoSo you know it should be 'en masse' rather than 'en mass'
17:53.43HachimanI must have missed an e
17:53.47XhoRLY
17:54.17HachimanHonestly Titanpad pissed me off so much last night I forgot to proofread
17:54.26HachimanI'll go over that in a bit
17:54.42CyrannianVery nice dino
17:55.16HachimanAye, interesting stuff
17:55.41dino82_:D
17:55.50dino82_Used the original image of the Hyperborea
18:03.40XhoHachiman OluapPlayer: Is that a water elemental attacking
18:04.14XhoOR A SHARKNADO
18:04.36HachimanIt's the familiar of the undine assassin that appeared in the "29/10/34: Land Shark" section
18:05.00XhoAh yes
18:05.07Xhobut it's now SHARKNADO
18:05.20Hachimanyee
18:16.28Cyrannianbrb dinner
18:18.47XhoNice section tho
18:18.50Xholotsa ded
18:19.05OluapPlayer_this was supposed to be a story about cute schoolgirls
18:19.11OluapPlayer_instead i got sharknado
18:19.48XhoCaligaduro - u live and learn           or die in this case HOOOOOOOOOH
18:24.32Charles_BotI'm on a bus
18:24.33Charles_BotAlone
18:24.40Charles_BotAnd the key is in the ignition
18:24.46Charles_BotI could just take this bus
18:24.50Charles_BotAnd drive away
18:25.18XhoTo wonderland
18:25.22XhoOr New Jersey
18:25.26XhoTake your pick
18:25.34Charles_BotNew Jersey
18:25.36Charles_BotIt's closer
18:25.37Xhoegad
18:25.57Charles_BotNEW JOYSEY
18:52.20CyrannianNight guys
18:56.04Wormy_According to google:  Hanging Gardens of Babylon > "Hours:  Closed Today"  ...No shit
18:59.44Tek0516Wormy_: Open on Friday though
18:59.52Wormy_Reviews:  "a mess, but a peace of history"  "It's nice and all, but in the end you're just paying to see a bunch of plants. I could walk through my back yard and do that for free. "  "Smells like Watermelon"
19:05.31Wormy_". There is a guy at the gate calls himself  Nebuchadnezzar II who will try and charge you 2 dinars to get in, but you can barter with him and he will accept a gourd as trade. ("
19:07.43Wormy_"He says i must give it 5 stars on trip advisor because thats how he got into the top 7 wonders of the ancient world. I tried but trip advisor said it doesnt exist so im not sure what to do about that. "
19:07.57Wormy_yay time travel
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19:18.33dino82_grmbl conneciton issuees
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19:31.35Luxorlate evening'
19:32.35LuxorSo proud of this one: http://imgur.com/a/dNiDC
19:33.12Xhonoice
19:33.33LuxorBest thing I've made since I started playing spore
19:33.41XhoIt is good
19:33.46Luxor'Behold'
19:34.22Wormy_superb work
19:35.07Wormy_Might be suitable on one of SporeWiki's galactic trade networks
19:35.23LuxorI'll share item save in Numen Aerospace page on FU.
19:35.32Luxor'Best Spacecraft in Cyrannus'
19:35.40LuxorFeel free to use under... payment.
19:35.45XhoOluapPlayer Technobliterator: I'm remaking the generic Xi'Arazulha model btw
19:35.55OluapPlayerRight
19:36.13TechnobliteratorSure thing
19:36.28TechnobliteratorAdd intro plz
19:37.36XhoMAKING MODEL FIRST
19:37.51XhoMight make picture as well
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19:56.32dino82_@luxyor: Very nice!
19:59.23Luxormy bed calls, cya
20:12.03dino82_ye bye
20:19.03XhoTechnobliterator: Where's the Taldar png
20:19.53TechnobliteratorCreature:Taldar
20:20.02TechnobliteratorI think?
20:20.03TechnobliteratorI might be wrong
20:20.17Technobliteratorhttp://spore.wikia.com/wiki/File:High_Taldar.png
20:21.10Wormy_I'm worried about Vsauce, this was when he was last seen https://i.ytimg.com/vi/QMh6PGPx6yc/hqdefault.jpg?custom=true&w=196&h=110&stc=true&jpg444=true&jpgq=90&sp=68&sigh=hBR8k6WbnUX2Ovv7WpU_iiX6x5k
20:21.38Xhodat ol png
20:21.43DrodoAwayWormy_: hur
20:25.52XhoMan we need a new Taldar model
20:26.08XhoThis was made 7th April 2010
20:26.13DrodoAwayJeez
20:27.26XhoVolzara was made 9th November 2010
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20:43.44TechnobliteratorI'm not really worried about how old the model is if it looks fine
20:44.05TechnobliteratorNo one has complained about the Taldar look in forever, so I assumed no one had a problem with it
20:45.38XhoNot saying it's bad
20:45.44XhoIt's just mega, mega old
20:54.17TechnobliteratorMhm, I'm not worried about it if it's not a bad model
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20:56.42HachimanHi
21:02.36Monet_2Hi
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21:16.23Quark8Hello.
21:36.12XhoOluapPlayer Technobliterator: http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/spore/images/7/7e/RizeoftheXiArazulha.png/revision/latest?cb=20160921213526 film style poster because why the hell not
21:36.29Technobliteratorniiiice
21:36.45OluapPlayerInteresting
21:39.16Xhohttp://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/spore/images/e/e5/XiArazulha2016.png/revision/latest?cb=20160921213850 And the actual Xi'Arazulha model
21:42.01Xhohttp://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/spore/images/f/fd/ViNavitum2016.png/revision/latest?cb=20160221223030 And then compare to the Vi'Navitum
21:42.43TechnobliteratorLooks awesome :o
21:43.57OluapPlayerThey look equally malevolent
21:44.06XhoKrath - thanx
21:45.59XhoThe Vi'Navitum are almost definitely a spawn of the Xhodocto, obviously not a very obedient spawn
21:46.18XhoThe Xi'Arazulha was more or less Angazhar's impression to correct that mistake
21:48.34XhoAnother theory is that they were pre-god like the Taldar and the Xhodocto decided to do an experiment on them
21:52.14XhoBut more likely a disobedient spawn
21:52.18XhoI dunno
21:57.24XhoOluapPlaying: Thinking about Maryah's name
21:57.41XhoYou could make it a shortened down part of a bigger name
21:58.27OluapPlayerThat'd require a fair amount of retconning since everyone ever has called her Maryah
21:58.38OluapPlayerim not even playin
21:58.49XhoI suck as this nomenclature game
21:58.54XhoOr English in general
22:02.01XhoWell you just have to add it to her official name and boom no one knows the wiser
22:02.03XhoExcept Maryah
22:02.05Xho:v
22:02.31HachimanYou could just get Jo's bot to retcon all mention of Maryah's name
22:03.24Xhoepic doi
22:05.30OluapPlayerI could
22:05.42OluapPlayerBut the name has already been around for years
22:06.10HachimanSo was Antediluvian until he became Tyrone
22:06.26OluapPlayerYeah and I was never a fan of that change hur
22:06.48XhoIt still throws me
22:06.55TechnobliteratorI've had trouble with bots all day
22:06.59XhoOkay fair enough that makes sense
22:07.48*** join/#sporewiki Charles_Murray (c0f6e911@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.246.233.17)
22:08.22OluapPlayerThough if I do rename her it'd be a major change in the style of Anteddy -> Tyrone
22:08.26Charles_MurrayTek0516 Quark8 Monet_2 DrodoAway Wormy_ How to tell your professor you didn't understand jack shit in the reading
22:08.30Charles_Murray"Unlike with the works of White and Novice, whose prose was straightforward and whose stated meaning and purpose was immediately clear, I am having a lot of trouble with Foucault. The Archeology of Knowledge feels more like a puzzle to be decrypted than a cohesive methodological mode d’emplois, requiring structure diagrams, terminology keys, lots of guesswork, and knowledge of other languages to understand even in a surf
22:08.51Charles_Murray"In the time that I had, I endeavored to do my best in this. And so here goes: my first Précis."
22:09.10Charles_Murray(That's how I'm prefacing the assignment I should have turned in an hour ago >.<)
22:10.32OluapPlayerGoddamn bored though
22:10.37OluapPlayerNothing to do now
22:14.02Xhoxi'arazulha intro pls
22:14.21TechnobliteratorWasn't that your job
22:14.21Technobliterator:V
22:14.27Xhonope.avi
22:14.34OluapPlayerYes it is
22:14.36TechnobliteratorI'm pretty sure it was your job
22:14.37Technobliterator:o
22:15.06TechnobliteratorThey just need to come in menacingly and look for the Ottzello Sector
22:15.17Technobliteratoralso to go "lol fuck Zargoth I'll kill this galaxy whenever I feel like it"
22:15.27OluapPlayerThat comes later
22:15.58TechnobliteratorWell, by going into the galaxy now, they're already going against what he asked
22:16.05TechnobliteratorHe asked for them to hold off until he gives the signal
22:51.53Quark8https://www.politicalcompass.org/yourpoliticalcompass?ec=-3.13&soc=-2.92 - Turns out I'm more centrist than I thought.
22:56.50Tek0516Quark8: Are you American?
22:56.56Quark8Aye.
22:57.49Tek0516Probably why. On that scale even most major Democrats are on the right.
22:59.19Tek0516https://www.politicalcompass.org/images/usprimaries2016.png Like this map of primary candidates for example
23:00.15Monet_2How come Aaerican politics is so right-wing?
23:00.19Monet_2American*
23:01.22Tek0516I know there's a reason but I forget why exactly
23:01.45Monet_2Was it related to communism?
23:02.58Tek0516Possibly, but I don't think that was all of it.
23:04.14Monet_2Bernie's over there but here in the UK that's pre-Blair Labour.
23:05.12Tek0516https://www.politicalcompass.org/canada2015 Even by Canadian standards according to this Clinton is closer to the conservatives
23:06.08Wormy_this is what makes choosing parties difficult tbh https://www.politicalcompass.org/images/enPartiesTime.gif
23:07.57Monet_2The War on Terror had a fair hand in making everyone more jumpy over matters of security.
23:09.06Tek0516My assumption is it has to do with when the Democrats abd Republicans essentially flipped which one was liberal and conservative.
23:09.09TechnobliteratorMore corporate control over everything, more of a scare against left-wing politics
23:09.52TechnobliteratorBut it's a slowly reversing trend
23:10.06Tek0516Anti-socialist and free market/corporatist politics are probably a lot of the driving factors behind it.
23:11.14TechnobliteratorBut mostly just corporations bribing politicians
23:12.44Monet_2Eh, I wonder if lobbying has both good and bad sides to it
23:13.03Monet_2The 'bribery' is more public, for one.
23:13.12Wormy_I think there was a huge movement in British and American politics in the 90's and early 2000's towards neoliberalism, some leading politicians became sold on the idea that the markets can regulate themselves and that their own social regulation would bring on barriers to the free market stability.  This relates to the ideology of negative freedom
23:14.06TechnobliteratorIt doesn't matter that the bribery's public, almost all laws written are written by big money, and will only ever benefit big money
23:14.15Monet_2I have a slight concern for this idea that when NGOs lobby governments, it's donations, when corporations lobby governments it's bribery.
23:15.11TechnobliteratorBecause one is a non-profit organization and the other is not?
23:15.32Monet_2They're both paying politicians to push their agendas.
23:16.35TechnobliteratorI have absolutely no problem with an NGO coming along donating to politicians if it genuinely believes "build more oil factories, make it difficult to build green energy around here". If it believes that, if it can gather donations for that cause and represent people who support that cause, sure.
23:16.55TechnobliteratorBut if a big oil company does it? It's obviously doing it to protect its own interests rather than the public
23:17.30TechnobliteratorIt's just screwing the public over by letting their air be polluted because of the short term profits of big oil companies, which is bullshit
23:18.36Monet_2These corporations do have to get their money form somewhere don't forget.
23:19.04TechnobliteratorAnd it's easy for them to do that if they can get government to write anti-competitive laws for them
23:19.13MonetAnd yeah, some charities aren't above squandering donation money.
23:19.32TechnobliteratorRecently, AT&T filed a lawsuit against Google Fiber operating in a certain village
23:19.47TechnobliteratorThere was no reason for it, it was just that Google Fiber offered a better internet service for a much cheaper price
23:20.01Technobliteratorthey just wanted to slow it down so they could lock more people into AT&T with long-term plans
23:20.06MonetAnd did AT&T win?
23:20.16TechnobliteratorNope, they lost, but it didn't matter
23:20.24TechnobliteratorThey delayed Google Fiber expanding in the area
23:20.29TechnobliteratorWhich is all they were trying to gain
23:20.52MonetThey're free to file a lawsuit. It just won't hold up i ncourt.
23:21.30TechnobliteratorIt didn't, but it slowed down competition long enough that it can vendor lock its customers
23:22.13TechnobliteratorThis is why corporatocracy is ridiculous, it never benefits the average person, just filthy rich people trying to get even richer
23:23.02Wormy_Its the politics of power, which unfortunately apply everywhere
23:26.06Wormy_Like I said, neoliberal politicians might dream of a society free'd from political interference, but all it does it sell that power to capitalists and lock people into newer forms of inequality.
23:26.17TechnobliteratorI don't mind holding right wing points of view, the issue I have is that most right wing politicians are not even right wing
23:26.23TechnobliteratorThey're just pro-big money
23:26.44TechnobliteratorBelieving in free markets, capitalism, limited regulation, that's cool
23:26.46MonetPolitics has long been backed by the wealthy. MPs may be getting paid something like £74,000 a year but that's sorta middle-high-income bracket
23:26.57Wormy_No, I think many genuinely believe or believed those ideologies, but uncritically.
23:27.02MonetThere are plenty of jobs out there that earn more than working as an MP.
23:27.03TechnobliteratorBut most of these policies are against free markets
23:27.10Wormy_And so gave us the mess
23:27.21TechnobliteratorI'm not sure how much the Republicans believe their rhetoric
23:27.25TechnobliteratorOr at least, the federal ones
23:27.43TechnobliteratorThey talk about small government all the time, yet it's Republican presidents that increase spending far more
23:27.49Technobliteratoroften on things like wars
23:28.06Technobliteratorand then cut taxes at the same time, never actually balancing the budget
23:28.10Wormy_And also the dissatisfaction people have about politicians.  People don't trust they can create change because they have rejected such regulation in front of our eyes on the media for the last two decades.
23:28.42MonetEver since Bill Clinton, politics has become more and more a performance act.
23:28.51TechnobliteratorYup
23:29.05TechnobliteratorWhile Bill Clinton was mostly a good president, he repealed Glass Steagall, which was awful
23:29.23Wormy_Monet:  Something that might interest you, I;m starting to think politicians should start popularising their ability to change the world again
23:29.41MonetAl Gore - he was a head of his time on climate change, but he was kinda boring compared to Dubyah.
23:29.47Technobliteratormhm
23:30.16*** join/#sporewiki Tybusen (8036b700@gateway/web/freenode/ip.128.54.183.0)
23:30.18Technobliteratorhi ty
23:30.21MonetAnd because he was boring, he disappeared.
23:30.23MonetHi
23:31.30Quark8Hey Tybunsen.
23:31.55TybusenHello
23:32.13Tybusenhttp://spore.wikia.com/wiki/Captain:Kazari_Selfar New character if anyone's interested
23:33.49Quark8I saw, and me likely.
23:34.43MonetWormy_: The main obstacle is many great schemes to change the world aren't good for staying in office.
23:36.48Wormy_I dunno, before the neoliberal revolution many politicians promised utopian myths about the future and strong social and economic regulation
23:37.58Wormy_It might not be now, because a lot of that failed to deliver and of course many politicians became more right economically
23:39.20Wormy_I guess since they have failed, we might be seeing the rise of populists like Farage and Trump, or Corbyn on the left
23:41.03Wormy_Failed - That is, their theory of self-stabilising markets crashed and burned horribly, and the conjecture I have that the public may not trust politicians because politicians have promoted neoliberal concepts
23:45.51MonetFarage, Trump and Corbyn are selling the world-changer-leader persona you want leaders to pick up again
23:46.19MonetHow true they are to what they say however is another point entirely
23:47.51Wormy_That's what makes me uncomfortable about it, and yet it might help diversify the political arena.
23:49.03MonetIt worked for Tony Blair.
23:51.33Wormy_Yes, I guess politicians in favour of neoliberalism at the time of Blair, including himself, charmed a great many people with these economic concepts but through exactly the same use of persona
23:53.41Wormy_Basically there's two powerful ideas of liberty, positive and negative; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Concepts_of_Liberty
23:53.55Wormy_in force in politics
23:55.12Wormy_The former is the freedom to act upon one's own will and transform themselves or society; and then the latter is a kind that attempts eliminate interference generated by others
23:55.55Wormy_Followed to their extremes, both probably lead to absurdity.  And there are probably better explanations of freedom; but all that aside these remain powerful ideas
23:56.27Wormy_Generally positive freedom became feared during the Soviet era
23:58.10Wormy_Influentions theorised it implied dangerous coercive forces
23:58.17Wormy_*influentials
23:59.54MonetOf course

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