| 00:00.05 | DrodoEmpire | They get some stuff right but I refuse to forgive their criminal misuse of weapons terminology and general crap like that |
| 00:00.07 | DrodoEmpire | >.< |
| 00:00.25 | Monet | Ah |
| 00:00.57 | Wormy__ | Fair enough but that isn't a bad article. OA is mostly an STL universe with some limited wormholes. So they describe in detail relativystic weaponry and warfare when light speed delays become apparent. |
| 00:00.59 | Monet | So your beef with OA is they know squat about military language? |
| 00:02.17 | The_Randomness | My issues with OA come with the transhumanism rhetoric in some of the stuff |
| 00:02.20 | DrodoEmpire | Monet: Not just that (and I admit that is entirely pedantic). I've read some other stuff and it... Ehh |
| 00:02.27 | DrodoEmpire | Its just too... Off |
| 00:02.51 | DrodoEmpire | I agree with Random its biased in that direction |
| 00:03.00 | DrodoEmpire | Which is one of my non-military oriented criticisms |
| 00:03.15 | Wormy__ | I don't like some of the transhumanist philosophy in OA |
| 00:03.46 | DrodoEmpire | But seriously how the fuck is a glorified railgun a "musket" |
| 00:03.50 | Wormy__ | Like there being incomprehensible levels of intelligence |
| 00:03.51 | DrodoEmpire | Get your shit together OA |
| 00:04.03 | DrodoEmpire | >.< |
| 00:04.28 | Wormy__ | Remember its written by many writers |
| 00:04.33 | DrodoEmpire | I know |
| 00:04.34 | Wormy__ | Sometimes they do get things right: |
| 00:04.36 | DrodoEmpire | Not an excuse |
| 00:04.38 | Wormy__ | "Space combat is actually combat in phase space, the six dimensional space of position and velocity. The leader that can exploit the peculiarities of the local phase space will have a great advantage. Gravity acts by bending trajectories, different velocity vectors enable different kinds of attack and the asymmetries induced by stars and planets in visibility provide great creative material." |
| 00:05.15 | Wormy__ | "Planets, megastructures, orbital habitats and asteroids are sitting ducks. Their positions can be known with great accuracy, and they cannot dodge any incoming fire. Although planets and some megastructures are protected by their sheer bulk, in general such major structures are too vulnerable to have much military value. Instead military installations are kept small, mobile and placed in awkward orbits or deep space in order to make |
| 00:05.16 | DrodoEmpire | And yeah I'd never say they're categorically wrong everywhere- when they make insights they're really fascinating |
| 00:05.30 | DrodoEmpire | Just some stuff really puts me off |
| 00:07.24 | The_Randomness | I mean, you even have the transcendence crap from transhumanism stuff in there |
| 00:07.44 | DrodoEmpire | "In Sun Tzu's day the voice volume of the general was an important factor: if he could not be heard, he could not be obeyed. Today every ship has to be its own general - or contain a copy of the general." |
| 00:08.09 | DrodoEmpire | Well no "volume" wasn't important- It was divisional organization, discipline, and quality of officership |
| 00:08.24 | DrodoEmpire | And also basically they admit space battles are one-on-one clusterfucks |
| 00:08.25 | DrodoEmpire | :p |
| 00:08.37 | DrodoEmpire | Clusterfucks full of highly-skilled and intellegent AI |
| 00:08.39 | DrodoEmpire | *AIs |
| 00:08.44 | DrodoEmpire | But clusterfucks |
| 00:08.55 | Wormy__ | Random, Drodo: Its this that makes me laugh http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-topic/45beaa73c347e http://www.orionsarm.com/im_store/splices.jpg http://www.orionsarm.com/im_store/Sadalmelic.jpg |
| 00:09.23 | Monet | I recall during the 15th-18th centuries, regimental drummers were a bit like metronomes. Their beats woudl tell ranks when to load, when to fire and when to aim. |
| 00:09.36 | DrodoEmpire | Drums and whistles were always used in warfare |
| 00:09.41 | Monet | And the rate to march at. |
| 00:10.02 | DrodoEmpire | But its not like the drummers and pipers were the ones giving the orders, or that their loudness decided battles |
| 00:10.05 | Monet | Right, my bad. |
| 00:10.40 | The_Randomness | Wormy__: ech |
| 00:10.53 | DrodoEmpire | It came down to the divisional officers, who recieved information of the battle through runners and porters, and stuck to a battle plan made by the general |
| 00:11.07 | DrodoEmpire | And made their own judgement when appropriate |
| 00:11.08 | Monet | "every ship has to be its own general" sounds like admitting "we cannot afford to use a hierarchical command structure" |
| 00:11.08 | DrodoEmpire | Anyway |
| 00:11.12 | DrodoEmpire | ^ |
| 00:11.20 | DrodoEmpire | And even with the excuses they give it sounds silly |
| 00:12.28 | Monet | A more appropriate analogy to how these ships could coordinate is looking at modern naval warfare -radios and semaphore, |
| 00:13.09 | DrodoEmpire | I mean yeah but they say that there are considerable time delays in terms of even learning where the enemy is and whatnot due to the distances involved |
| 00:13.11 | DrodoEmpire | Fair enough |
| 00:13.24 | DrodoEmpire | But where in that do you get the idea to go out and duel enemy ships? |
| 00:13.27 | Wormy__ | OA does have some gems if you are into speculative science fiction |
| 00:14.00 | DrodoEmpire | Wouldn't it make more sense to stick together, perhaps? Move in cumbersome (even loose) though definite formations so a chain of command may be maintained? |
| 00:14.44 | Monet | Information is *very* important on the battlefield. |
| 00:15.02 | DrodoEmpire | ^ |
| 00:15.37 | Monet | And by the sounds of that line, the side who has foreknowledge - such as scouts, buoys or even a vanguard force is going ot have the tactical advantage. |
| 00:16.44 | Monet | SOme sort of forward information gatherer. |
| 00:17.51 | Wormy__ | Ah there is one important thing to remember: E warfare |
| 00:18.09 | Monet | AIs might be used certainly, and OA might get away with AI dependance due to being post-singularity, with computers that are intelligent enough to have a keener battlefield awareness than most organic crews. |
| 00:18.50 | The_Randomness | Oh yeah, the singularity is another thing that makes OA start to taste sour for me |
| 00:19.01 | DrodoEmpire | Well yeah but that still doesn't really address my point, which is that it seems like space warfare in OA is dominated by a series of one-on-one engagements |
| 00:19.08 | Wormy__ | It states that "The most feared aspect of information is perversion: being infiltrated with enemy code. Especially an enemy of a higher singularity level is often capable of insinuating dangerous information in broadcasts." and "Many ships have extremely rigid security around their communications systems, and may even refuse communication except according to some pre-set schedule." |
| 00:19.10 | DrodoEmpire | Which we knew were a terrible idea since the Bronze age |
| 00:19.58 | Wormy__ | Random: Yeah I don't believe in the Singularity; or in incomprehensible AI |
| 00:20.39 | DrodoEmpire | OA's pretty up its own ass when it comes to post-humanism and the singularity or whatever you call it |
| 00:20.43 | DrodoEmpire | I dunno its all nonsense |
| 00:20.44 | DrodoEmpire | >.< |
| 00:20.50 | Wormy__ | I think its more like one-on-one engagements but over many frames of reference at different accelerations |
| 00:21.10 | DrodoEmpire | Which, if I understand correctly, remain one-on-one engagements :p |
| 00:21.10 | Monet | Wormy__: I'm not sure if that's how proper E-warfare might work. |
| 00:21.36 | Wormy__ | Since all the targets will be moving relative to each other in four dimensional spacetime, possibly relativistically. |
| 00:21.38 | Monet | Unless OA uses other forms besides AI infiltration |
| 00:22.08 | Wormy__ | Point is, one to one engagements might be forced by the laws of physics |
| 00:22.22 | Wormy__ | Slow targets are easy to predict |
| 00:22.36 | Monet | What about jamming, EMP, worm software, malware insertion? |
| 00:22.37 | Wormy__ | Large, tight formations are also easier to destroy |
| 00:23.38 | Wormy__ | I don't think anything in that quote contradicts that |
| 00:23.45 | Wormy__ | *those |
| 00:24.20 | DrodoEmpire | Wormy__: well no I never said formations'd be particularly tight- I said they'd probably be necessary to maintain any sort of cohesion and actually conduct battle effectively |
| 00:24.29 | Monet | Being able to twist your enemy's boradcasts is one thing, but what about a p2p virus that, when activated, essentially breaks the source code. |
| 00:24.34 | DrodoEmpire | Which means space warfare might be cumbersome but actually *possible* |
| 00:25.25 | DrodoEmpire | What I imagine is that, far into or even post-battle and the two armies are spread all over hell's half-acre, then what? |
| 00:25.34 | DrodoEmpire | Seems like it'd be a nightmare to reorganize |
| 00:25.43 | DrodoEmpire | A nightmare to even fight in such a way |
| 00:26.28 | Monet | It does sound like the primary strategy is "every man fight his own way" |
| 00:27.17 | Monet | I've been in enough pick-up-party dungeons ot know how easily that can go south. |
| 00:27.33 | DrodoEmpire | Yeah... |
| 00:28.29 | DrodoEmpire | Either way I'm not expecting to be using OA for much of anything any time soon, sorry |
| 00:28.31 | DrodoEmpire | >.< |
| 00:29.52 | Wormy__ | I don't really know much to respod, but they do have an "Early Spacewarfare" page that describes fleet battles and how they evolved away from them http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/487129c45daf9 |
| 00:34.28 | Wormy__ | Unless your fleet of ships is running into space battle very quickly, at 90% the speed of light, if you have relativistic weapons you could response to the thermal signature way ahead of time. |
| 00:35.12 | Wormy__ | I don't know how realistic OA are on the issue, but I'm doubtful real spacebattles will look anything like those in Star Wars or Star Trek |
| 00:35.37 | DrodoEmpire | No they probably won't |
| 00:35.59 | DrodoEmpire | At the same time I'm *very* resistant to the idea of some weird clusterfuck of vessels zooming around space taking potshots at eachother |
| 00:36.21 | DrodoEmpire | Sounds rather dull |
| 00:38.29 | Wormy__ | One thing I imagine could be useful in thisa kind of warfare is deception |
| 00:38.44 | DrodoEmpire | Well yes deception is always useful |
| 00:39.09 | Wormy__ | You could easily deceive long range sensors with the signature of ships or fleets and reduce the probability you will be struck before you are even close |
| 00:44.07 | Hachiman | I imagine that space battles will probably be quite calculated and slow affairs |
| 00:44.13 | Hachiman | Realistically, that is |
| 00:44.56 | DrodoEmpire | Probably, though I'm unsure as to how "hard" the sci fi here will be |
| 00:45.24 | The_Randomness | I just don't want space magic of any sort |
| 00:45.32 | DrodoEmpire | That's fair |
| 00:45.41 | The_Randomness | I will vehemently oppose any sort of space magic |
| 00:46.09 | DrodoEmpire | I won't be a hardliner about it but I support your idea |
| 00:46.20 | DrodoEmpire | We have magic concepts in both of the other universes |
| 00:46.39 | Wormy__ | I wanted to bring psychdelic shroom elves into this new universe :( |
| 00:46.53 | Wormy__ | That live in Elfspace |
| 00:49.13 | Wormy__ | Drodo: I might not be on the same track as you are, but when you mean "maintain any sort of cohesion and actually conduct battle effectively", I assume the military formations would be close for fast communication |
| 00:49.44 | Wormy__ | I think that's fine |
| 00:50.04 | Wormy__ | In an OA-style universe, they wouldn't want to too close |
| 00:50.11 | Monet | He might be suggesting using an kind of fornation. |
| 00:50.37 | Monet | The paragraph that started this suggested that battles in OA were one-on one mosh pits. |
| 00:50.45 | Monet | space battles* |
| 00:51.25 | Wormy__ | Why do they need such formations though on the OA setting? It describes how three, four... six dimensional coordinates make things like encirclement and blockade impossible |
| 00:51.53 | DrodoEmpire | Well here's the thing |
| 00:52.03 | Hachiman | Because strategic placement is always more beneficial than a mosh pit hur |
| 00:52.07 | Wormy__ | When your enemy doesn't blockade anything, but puts military installations in hidden orbits or hard to reach areas, why need a fleet? |
| 00:52.09 | DrodoEmpire | If you do fuck off around and go flank and stuff it seems that the ships lose communication with eachother |
| 00:52.16 | DrodoEmpire | And thus any advantage is losy |
| 00:53.02 | DrodoEmpire | So it seems like, due to these constraints, strategic placement, and actually sticking together is probably necessary |
| 00:53.27 | DrodoEmpire | Otherwise the chain of command breaks down and you have some bizarre dogfight |
| 00:54.28 | DrodoEmpire | :p |
| 00:54.58 | DrodoEmpire | And a one-on-one dogfight moshpit'll just result in heavy casaulties and probably some ships missing because they straddled too far off |
| 00:55.09 | Wormy__ | It doesn't seem like ships in OA even need formations |
| 00:55.17 | DrodoEmpire | But they sorta do? |
| 00:55.23 | DrodoEmpire | For the reasons I stated above? |
| 00:55.25 | DrodoEmpire | OA's wrong |
| 00:55.28 | DrodoEmpire | That's my point |
| 00:55.34 | DrodoEmpire | Read carefully |
| 00:56.16 | Wormy__ | I don't know whether its realistic. But its pretty consistent with tight constraints given velocity vectors and positions of ovjects. Their mass, visibility and so on. |
| 00:56.59 | Wormy__ | They have gotten rid of all the things like large military installations, blockades, what have you. Because they are pretty useless |
| 00:57.06 | Wormy__ | in 4D space |
| 00:57.26 | DrodoEmpire | Right you're refusing to actually discuss my point Wormy |
| 00:57.39 | The_Randomness | The thing here is that they're using extra spatial dimensions |
| 00:57.49 | DrodoEmpire | Well, except perhaps for the first line |
| 00:57.52 | Wormy__ | nO, let me get to my point |
| 00:57.57 | DrodoEmpire | Alright, go |
| 00:58.07 | The_Randomness | Which is weird for me to think about |
| 00:58.31 | DrodoEmpire | Randomness: Weird for me too. Too weird, in fact, for me to accept it makes invalid one of the most basic concepts in warfare |
| 00:58.46 | DrodoEmpire | Chain of command, strategic positioning, etc. |
| 00:59.02 | Wormy__ | When your enemy *has a clusterfuck of defences*, all moving very quickly or capable of great acclelerations in difficult reach places, you aren't going to want to have formations of ships unless they too are moving just below light speed |
| 00:59.38 | DrodoEmpire | You seem to think that by "formation" I mean "tight line of battle". I don't |
| 01:00.05 | DrodoEmpire | I mean some form of strategic positioning that allows the fleet to maneuver and communicate effectively and fight as a single entity |
| 01:00.13 | Wormy__ | I'm sorry but you can't declare something is too weird when something is counter-intuitive, and then declare it nonsense |
| 01:00.26 | DrodoEmpire | It can be as loose or as tight as you want it, but it needs to be there |
| 01:01.02 | Wormy__ | I understand that, all I'm saying is, they wouldn't want *to be too close together* |
| 01:01.09 | DrodoEmpire | I never said it'd be tight |
| 01:01.25 | Monet | Open formations |
| 01:01.32 | DrodoEmpire | It needs to be close enough so units can effectively support eachother and maneuver |
| 01:01.41 | DrodoEmpire | And nothing in that article mentioned much on that |
| 01:01.56 | Monet | One effective tactic (I think) when facing a volley of archers is to move in a way that's spread out. |
| 01:02.12 | DrodoEmpire | Wormy__: Also I should note I was being half-serious there. Seriously just chill >.< |
| 01:02.13 | Monet | But it's still a formation. |
| 01:02.15 | Hachiman | Or do a Spartan and phalanx |
| 01:02.20 | Hachiman | Because Spartans are <£ |
| 01:02.22 | Hachiman | <3 |
| 01:02.32 | Wormy__ | Monet: OA is just a massive extrapolation of that |
| 01:02.44 | Wormy__ | Apologies |
| 01:02.44 | Hachiman | No wait |
| 01:02.47 | Hachiman | Wrong maneuver |
| 01:02.50 | DrodoEmpire | Except it isn't because it admits there is no actual communication or chain or command |
| 01:03.07 | DrodoEmpire | Which means its bull, because you can't fight a battle with a mob |
| 01:03.13 | Monet | Hachiman: You might be thinking of testudo. |
| 01:03.22 | DrodoEmpire | Spartans used the phalanx |
| 01:03.23 | DrodoEmpire | Sorta |
| 01:03.27 | DrodoEmpire | They were Greeks |
| 01:03.36 | DrodoEmpire | Roman Legionaries used the Testudo |
| 01:03.42 | Hachiman | Yes, the tortoise formation |
| 01:03.46 | Monet | Yeah |
| 01:03.53 | Wormy__ | I don't think there necessarily has to be no chain of command. We are dealing with very predictable physics |
| 01:04.05 | Hachiman | I dunno if Spartans ever used that realistically though, I imagine they did |
| 01:04.22 | DrodoEmpire | Except war isn't physics- Its about tactics and maneuver that can;t be summed up as mathematical equations |
| 01:05.11 | Monet | If it did we'd have had computers effective at conducting war for some time now. |
| 01:05.16 | DrodoEmpire | Physics play a part in this sort of warfare, where one has to predict the enemy's position and then attack, but that's weapons usage |
| 01:05.26 | *** join/#sporewiki Wormy_ (02184654@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.24.70.84) |
| 01:05.50 | Wormy_ | [02:04] <Wormy__> You could have a plan ahead of time if you have predicted the trajestory and position of your targets, and then send your formations forward. They could even communicate if they were closer to each other than closer to the enemy |
| 01:05.54 | DrodoEmpire | Its another level entirely to then say you will use your left wing to strike the enemy advancing along that path, and then go in with your centre to finish off the weakened enemy |
| 01:05.58 | Monet | There still needs ot be a chain of command to coordinate specifically what all those ships are doing. |
| 01:06.06 | DrodoEmpire | [22:04] <DrodoEmpire> Except war isn't physics- Its about tactics and maneuver that can;t be summed up as mathematical equations [22:05] <Monet> If it did we'd have had computers effective at conducting war for some time now. [22:05] <DrodoEmpire> Physics play a part in this sort of warfare, where one has to predict the enemy's position and then attack, but that's weapons usage |
| 01:06.12 | DrodoEmpire | Its another level entirely to then say you will use your left wing to strike the enemy advancing along that path, and then go in with your centre to finish off the weakened enemy |
| 01:06.24 | Wormy_ | But if you are closer to your enemy who has weapons that can accelerate faster than you, you are better off not communicating |
| 01:07.04 | DrodoEmpire | You're using very specific examples to disprove a base principle of warfare |
| 01:07.08 | DrodoEmpire | That's insipid |
| 01:07.08 | Monet | Another task commanders often face is keeping the navy force together when things g ounexpectedly. |
| 01:07.09 | DrodoEmpire | :p |
| 01:07.26 | DrodoEmpire | A ship-to-ship missile also travels much faster then a battleship |
| 01:07.32 | DrodoEmpire | What's your point? |
| 01:08.44 | Wormy_ | Its not stupid at all. What would be stupid is to use principles intuitive to you that simply won't work in a counter-intuitive situation. That would be irrational. |
| 01:09.05 | Wormy_ | Think about what I'm saying |
| 01:09.10 | The_Randomness | Can you guys move on from this? |
| 01:09.13 | DrodoEmpire | I did and what you're saying is wrong |
| 01:09.16 | Wormy_ | You have an enemy with relativistic launchers in orbit |
| 01:09.22 | DrodoEmpire | I get that the warfare is different |
| 01:09.42 | DrodoEmpire | I disagree that because of that chain of command, and actually operating as a cohesive force is somehow obsolete |
| 01:09.57 | Monet | Even in modern warfare, a 220mm shell is propelled at a velocity much higher than what your ship can manage. |
| 01:10.07 | Wormy_ | You are your fleet are within the range of those weapons. You are hidden. If you communicate in their range you may not be able to accerlerate out of their ra\nge in time |
| 01:10.26 | DrodoEmpire | That's why you have a battleplan already |
| 01:10.33 | Wormy_ | So what I;m saying is, if your formation is outside that range, communication is safe |
| 01:10.37 | DrodoEmpire | And when the time of combat comes, communicate *during* battle. |
| 01:10.47 | DrodoEmpire | And then operate as a cohesive force |
| 01:11.03 | Wormy_ | But only when you can be sure your enemy can't defend itself |
| 01:11.18 | Wormy_ | When you have already launched your weapons |
| 01:11.31 | Wormy_ | Its physics |
| 01:11.36 | DrodoEmpire | No, operating as a cohesive force and communicating can both be done under fire :p |
| 01:11.53 | DrodoEmpire | How does radioing the flagship have anything to do with the discharging of weapons? |
| 01:12.26 | Monet | I'd say we've reached an impasse here due to differing knowledge pools.. |
| 01:12.45 | DrodoEmpire | Right |
| 01:12.50 | Wormy_ | Because to be safe while in communication with your fleet, you will want to be sure you can communicate and defeat your enemy in time. That means being further away |
| 01:13.05 | DrodoEmpire | I'm ready to end this when Wormy is ready to stop trying to disprove military theory using physics :p |
| 01:13.19 | Wormy_ | I'm not |
| 01:13.31 | DrodoEmpire | Then what in the hell are you talking about? >.< |
| 01:13.43 | Monet | What kinds of distances are we talking about again? |
| 01:13.51 | Wormy_ | Imagine that this scenario involves defenses that fire relativistic weapons, that accelerate in a very short space of time to say 50% speed of light |
| 01:13.57 | DrodoEmpire | I'm trying to say that operation as a cohesive force is *always* necessary- This idea is an infinitely malleable concept |
| 01:14.00 | Hachiman | Guys |
| 01:14.01 | Hachiman | Please |
| 01:14.30 | Hachiman | Like, I am not attempting to censor a topic or conversation, but come on, the debate is getting a bit stale now |
| 01:14.34 | The_Randomness | yeah |
| 01:14.43 | DrodoEmpire | Alright I have to agree there |
| 01:15.08 | Wormy_ | You are unlikely to be able to accelerate away in time once those weapons have been fired. So you can't communicate if you fall in their range |
| 01:15.14 | DrodoEmpire | Wormy please shut up |
| 01:15.16 | DrodoEmpire | We're done |
| 01:15.17 | DrodoEmpire | >.< |
| 01:15.26 | Hachiman | Bit rude |
| 01:15.38 | DrodoEmpire | Sorry |
| 01:15.55 | Wormy_ | Let me finish my point |
| 01:15.55 | Wormy_ | Which I did |
| 01:16.13 | DrodoEmpire | Wormy I would, but it'll just start things up again |
| 01:16.36 | DrodoEmpire | So I ask that you reconsider |
| 01:17.19 | Wormy_ | Nothing about what I'm saying goes against military cohesion and command, does it? It just means beind mindful where it is applied, given the counter intuitive physics involved |
| 01:17.46 | DrodoEmpire | Alright, here we go |
| 01:17.56 | DrodoEmpire | No, you pretty plainly said it was "irrational" |
| 01:18.04 | Wormy_ | Like you say, it would require a battleplan. And I even agree communication is necessary, but not when it would be stupid to communicate when that would mean your certain destruction. |
| 01:18.12 | DrodoEmpire | But I also say that this concept is infinitely malliable, and that OA's take is pretty dumb |
| 01:18.33 | DrodoEmpire | If they already know your position what is the risk? |
| 01:18.34 | Wormy_ | That I can't seem to get you to accept |
| 01:19.06 | Wormy_ | Because its not like in OA can you warp out the system. Most ships only have STL capability |
| 01:19.19 | *** join/#sporewiki Tybusen (8036af73@gateway/web/freenode/ip.128.54.175.115) |
| 01:19.36 | DrodoEmpire | No no, I'm saying that once battle is met what is the risk of communication? Would they not already know your position? |
| 01:19.50 | Wormy_ | If a weapon is hurtling at you at 99% speed of light, you will not accelerate away in time |
| 01:20.08 | Monet | Maybe take this to a private channel |
| 01:20.09 | DrodoEmpire | You also won't accelerate out of the way of a 21st century ship-to-ship missile |
| 01:20.12 | Wormy_ | No risk, I agree there |
| 01:20.13 | DrodoEmpire | What's your point? |
| 01:20.26 | DrodoEmpire | You seem unaware of the fact that most of what you |
| 01:20.29 | Wormy_ | Because OA universe isn't set in the 21st century |
| 01:20.38 | DrodoEmpire | *you're saying is applicable to 21st century naval warfare |
| 01:20.42 | DrodoEmpire | I don't care, it still is |
| 01:20.43 | DrodoEmpire | :p |
| 01:20.55 | Wormy_ | Its just a lot more extreme |
| 01:21.13 | DrodoEmpire | In some regards, maybe. |
| 01:21.34 | Monet | Oh-kay this is getting a little heated from my perspective. |
| 01:21.37 | The_Randomness | zzz |
| 01:21.53 | DrodoEmpire | Monet: Well I asked him to drop it |
| 01:22.04 | DrodoEmpire | But my point is that chain of command, maneuver, etc. *all* remain intact with 21st century naval warfare, which is a reasonably-close analogy |
| 01:22.07 | Wormy_ | You don;t want to drop it though |
| 01:22.09 | DrodoEmpire | And the best one we have |
| 01:22.12 | DrodoEmpire | Oh I did] |
| 01:22.17 | DrodoEmpire | Then you continued |
| 01:22.22 | DrodoEmpire | What was I supposed to do? :p |
| 01:23.26 | Wormy_ | No, I'm not going to get rid of a whole sentence I've just made because someone told me stop. I'm going to finish my point. |
| 01:23.52 | Wormy_ | Look, I think we don't disagree a great deal but are arguing from different sides of the same thing |
| 01:24.20 | DrodoEmpire | Neither of us are understanding the other I agree |
| 01:25.48 | Monet | So it might be best to put the conversation to the side. |
| 01:26.05 | Monet | Otherwise this'll keep going |
| 01:26.06 | DrodoEmpire | Alright |
| 01:26.10 | The_Randomness | yeah |
| 01:28.31 | The_Randomness | Right, so let's move back to the discussion of the collab stuff |
| 01:29.53 | The_Randomness | It seems like there's a decent consensus for the setting, think we should make a poll-like thing for the 15ly space? |
| 01:29.58 | The_Randomness | or rather the scope of it |
| 01:30.01 | The_Randomness | words are hard |
| 01:30.21 | DrodoEmpire | Okay |
| 01:32.12 | The_Randomness | I'm currently occupied with raid stuff in FFXIV, so if somebody else wants to do it, feel free to |
| 01:32.17 | Wormy_ | Actually, let me bring it back up: I want to apologise and clear up things. We weren't understand each other |
| 01:32.27 | DrodoEmpire | Nah we didn't |
| 01:32.35 | DrodoEmpire | Sorry for all that, Wormy |
| 01:32.54 | Wormy_ | I'm sorry |
| 01:32.59 | DrodoEmpire | Its alright |
| 01:33.36 | Wormy_ | And I didn't get what you meant either, so it shouldn't have even been stated |
| 01:33.40 | Wormy_ | What I meant as irrational was something completely off the cwall, no wonder you didn't get it |
| 01:33.57 | Wormy_ | I also read "insipid" as "stupid", and that angered me. Again, my fault |
| 01:34.02 | The_Randomness | lol |
| 01:34.31 | DrodoEmpire | Well I'll be honest Wormy that was sorta the thing I meant to get across |
| 01:34.35 | DrodoEmpire | So no, that's my fault |
| 01:34.40 | DrodoEmpire | Sorry for that. |
| 01:34.47 | DrodoEmpire | Anyway, yeah |
| 01:35.17 | Wormy_ | OA is pretty dumb anyway, and in the real world, warfare just isn't that certain the way they did things |
| 01:35.41 | DrodoEmpire | I don't need you to overcompensate. XD OA isn't dumb, it just has some silly ideas in my opinion |
| 01:36.23 | DrodoEmpire | And yeah military theory, at least I find, can have a hint of retroactivity in the way they figure things out- Much is based off of historical examples and sometimes things change too fast |
| 01:36.25 | Wormy_ | It has living Furries... |
| 01:36.34 | DrodoEmpire | So do we |
| 01:36.34 | DrodoEmpire | XD |
| 01:36.57 | The_Randomness | yeah, but OA tries to sell itself as hard scifi |
| 01:37.04 | DrodoEmpire | Ah fair enough |
| 01:37.10 | The_Randomness | and it has anthromorphs and transcendentalism |
| 01:37.13 | The_Randomness | ??? |
| 01:37.16 | Wormy_ | When its only "plausible" at best in my book |
| 01:37.28 | DrodoEmpire | Its takes itself too seriously then |
| 01:37.36 | Wormy_ | I agree |
| 01:37.42 | DrodoEmpire | Alright. |
| 01:38.05 | The_Randomness | at least I think it does |
| 01:38.15 | DrodoEmpire | Yeah I'm pretty sure it does |
| 01:38.57 | Wormy_ | I think we both agree at the end of day, relativistic warfare requires a complex combination of understand the physics and applying military principles. |
| 01:39.02 | Wormy_ | *understanding |
| 01:39.08 | DrodoEmpire | Its very different for sure |
| 01:39.30 | DrodoEmpire | And yeah its closest real life example still only has a tenuous connection |
| 01:39.50 | DrodoEmpire | So it'd require a new interpretation for sure |
| 01:40.15 | DrodoEmpire | Which I'm open to- I'm less open to each doing its own thing completely, which is how I read OA's assessment |
| 01:40.26 | DrodoEmpire | Which isn't your assessment, Wormy |
| 01:40.34 | DrodoEmpire | Or at least I believe |
| 01:40.47 | The_Randomness | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:41.02 | Wormy_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:41.07 | DrodoEmpire | Who would that be? |
| 01:41.42 | Wormy_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:41.48 | DrodoEmpire | Ah, yeah |
| 01:41.52 | The_Randomness | yeah |
| 01:42.00 | DrodoEmpire | I like how he's *trying*... But yeah |
| 01:42.42 | DrodoEmpire | One new user I do like is Xisuthros |
| 01:42.51 | DrodoEmpire | If only he'd be on IRC more |
| 01:43.05 | The_Randomness | Yeah, he seems like the good sort of newb |
| 01:43.40 | DrodoEmpire | Yeah he seems to be a rare example of a user who isn't bad or cringey right off the bat |
| 01:43.50 | DrodoEmpire | I was not one of those rare examples <.< |
| 01:44.12 | Wormy_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:44.23 | DrodoEmpire | Right, yeah |
| 01:44.38 | The_Randomness | You might want to try to tell them that |
| 01:45.46 | The_Randomness | I would probably make a mess out of it |
| 01:46.16 | Wormy_ | It might come off as condensending |
| 01:46.25 | The_Randomness | yeah, that's a good point |
| 01:46.38 | Wormy_ | I'm hoping the page, and coordination too, will make it click |
| 01:47.51 | Wormy_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 01:48.02 | The_Randomness | So, I think we should go ahead and make a submission thingy for the scope of the project |
| 01:48.15 | Wormy_ | Indeed |
| 01:48.43 | The_Randomness | shouldn't take too long, I would do it if I wasn't in the middle of raid time |
| 01:48.56 | Wormy_ | Raid? |
| 01:49.05 | Wormy_ | Are you in a Dungeon? |
| 01:49.15 | DrodoEmpire | test |
| 01:49.25 | DrodoEmpire | advert raid xdddddddddd ((darkrpiscancer)) |
| 01:50.27 | Wormy_ | ayy |
| 01:50.55 | The_Randomness | We're doing this tonight https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YknIIaXPeBo |
| 01:52.34 | Wormy_ | Oh, I've had half a bottle of wine |
| 01:52.39 | Wormy_ | No wonder I was argumentative |
| 01:53.24 | DrodoEmpire | Its alright, its alright |
| 01:53.28 | DrodoEmpire | I hardly helped >.< |
| 01:53.49 | Wormy_ | No worries, its a silly OA page I was defendinding |
| 01:53.55 | DrodoEmpire | (Also to anybody who is curious about what GMod DarkRP is about: Don't be) |
| 01:54.06 | DrodoEmpire | Alright. |
| 01:54.07 | Wormy_ | Lol alcohol effects on my typing ^ |
| 01:54.13 | DrodoEmpire | lol |
| 01:55.35 | DrodoEmpire | (Well I mean unless you're interested in prisoners dragging away prison guards - https://i.gyazo.com/76db4c742f35bd12275e2b98b0842178.jpg ) |
| 01:56.01 | DrodoEmpire | ( https://looprider.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/1357363559_rp_downtown_v4c_v20097.png - Or this... Gem?) |
| 02:00.32 | The_Randomness | I can make the submission after raid time is over in ~30 minutes |
| 02:02.08 | Wormy_ | Random: Is it possible you can also reply to Groxkiller at the bottom. I've asked him why he thinks starting small is limited. It might be worth you telling him of your experience with an RP universe that nearly died http://spore.wikia.com/wiki/SporeWiki:Super_Collab#Discussion |
| 02:02.39 | Wormy_ | Because people started going in any direction they wanted |
| 02:03.00 | The_Randomness | well, it wasn't an rp world |
| 02:03.34 | The_Randomness | But the main thing is keeping things consistent, and it's easiest to do that if you limit your scope |
| 02:04.18 | Wormy_ | Right I'll post that |
| 02:31.29 | The_Randomness | Alright, I'm back |
| 02:31.41 | DrodoEmpire | Cool |
| 02:32.56 | The_Randomness | I'll add another two cents to the discussion and make the submission |
| 02:34.44 | The_Randomness | It's tempting to say more than just "you can't start large," but I would probably just come off as condescending |
| 02:44.32 | DrodoEmpire | Eh maybe |
| 02:44.32 | Wormy_ | goodnight all |
| 02:44.34 | DrodoEmpire | Night |
| 02:45.14 | The_Randomness | ༼ ºÙͺ༼ ºÙͺ ༽ºÙͺ ༽ºÙͺ ༽ EVERYONE GET IN HERE ༼ ºÙͺ༼ ºÙͺ༼ ºÙͺ༼ ºÙͺ ༽ http://spore.wikia.com/wiki/SporeWiki:Super_Collab#Scope_of_the_setting |
| 02:55.34 | The_Randomness | So yeah, indicate your support or otherwise there |
| 07:45.35 | *** join/#sporewiki Ghelae (56875e21@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.135.94.33) |
| 07:45.35 | *** mode/#sporewiki [+o Ghelae] by ChanServ |
| 08:34.42 | *** join/#sporewiki AdmiralPanda (3a6b1c72@gateway/web/freenode/ip.58.107.28.114) |
| 09:01.55 | *** join/#sporewiki ImpyDroid (~Anders@host-226-156-66-217.spbmts.ru) |
| 09:33.18 | *** join/#sporewiki Liquid_Ink (79d0cd9d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.208.205.157) |
| 10:28.13 | *** join/#sporewiki Jepardi (591b4d42@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.27.77.66) |
| 10:28.14 | Jepardi | Hi |
| 10:36.56 | *** join/#sporewiki Liquid_Ink (79d0cd9d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.208.205.157) |
| 11:04.48 | *** join/#sporewiki Hachiman (5aff2aea@gateway/web/freenode/ip.90.255.42.234) |
| 11:04.50 | Hachiman | Hi |
| 11:06.24 | AdmiralPanda | hai buniman |
| 11:19.38 | ImpyDroid | iH |
| 11:30.41 | *** join/#sporewiki Wormy_ (02184654@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.24.70.84) |
| 11:30.51 | Wormy_ | hi |
| 11:31.01 | AdmiralPanda | hi |
| 12:04.10 | *** join/#sporewiki Ghelae (56875e21@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.135.94.33) |
| 12:04.10 | *** mode/#sporewiki [+o Ghelae] by ChanServ |
| 12:10.07 | Wormy_ | hi |
| 12:10.55 | Ghelaptop | Hello. |
| 12:10.55 | Wormy_ | If only I had Space Engine working |
| 12:11.58 | Wormy_ | I could pick a region of space similar to Sol's and then have an instant star map complete with star types |
| 12:13.23 | Ghelaptop | Oh, that would be useful for a 15-ly-radius sphere. |
| 12:14.02 | ImpyDroid | Wormy_ Hachiman: http://www.nme.com/filmandtv/news/-star-wars-young-anakin-skywalker-actor-jake-lloyd/404301 |
| 12:14.21 | ImpyDroid | Damn you Jar Jar |
| 12:19.50 | Wormy_ | Ghelae: Space Engine would allow me to be really specific in zooming in and out at distances |
| 12:20.17 | Ghelaptop | I have read the logs for last night, but they only go up to midnight, so did anything else get discussed about the super-collab afterwards? |
| 12:21.03 | Wormy_ | Poor kid |
| 12:21.45 | Wormy_ | Ah, did you see that stupid argument I had about military theory in four dimensional spacetime and six dimensional phase space? |
| 12:21.59 | Wormy_ | Might have happened a bit later |
| 12:22.51 | Wormy_ | Yes, anyway we discussed the scope of the project, and I explained your idea of a megastructure catastrophe or war of stars. |
| 12:24.31 | *** join/#sporewiki OluapPlayer (badafdcd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.186.218.253.205) |
| 12:24.31 | *** mode/#sporewiki [+o OluapPlayer] by ChanServ |
| 12:25.06 | ImpyDroid | Speaking of which guys |
| 12:25.17 | ImpyDroid | What did we agree on in the collaboration so far? |
| 12:25.19 | ImpyDroid | Hi OP |
| 12:25.28 | OluapPlayer | Hi |
| 12:25.33 | Ghelaptop | Hello. |
| 12:26.02 | Ghelaptop | Wormy_: That argument probably happened shortly after midnight. The final quote of the night in the logs is Drodo saying "But ew OA". |
| 12:26.02 | Wormy_ | We've agreed to not decide where the setting is yet, and there is strong support for an area of space more than 15 light years. |
| 12:26.30 | ImpyDroid | So tiny |
| 12:26.32 | ImpyDroid | Yiy |
| 12:26.57 | Wormy_ | Yeah Drodo criticised, and quite rightly perhaps, the OA writers grasp of military theory |
| 12:28.18 | Wormy_ | But while neither of us actually disagreed with each other about military theory or the logistics of warfare in space at high accelerations, an argument sprang up from neither of us communicating our knowledge bases. |
| 12:29.51 | Ghelaptop | What were the criticisms of OA's military theory? |
| 12:30.00 | Wormy_ | *being no more than 15 light years |
| 12:31.30 | Wormy_ | Drodo perceived OA's style of warfare as lacking cohesion and military command, where a space battle one would composed of one on one pot shots. I tried to argue that the laws of physics kind of make that a necessity in the OA's setting, but it sounded like to him I was saying they didn't need a chain of command. |
| 12:33.09 | Ghelaptop | Yes; it's physics that makes space battles high-velocity short-duration shots (matching speeds uses far too much fuel to be useful), while it's presumably OA singularitarianism that causes the apparent lack of command structure. |
| 12:33.16 | ImpyDroid | All I care about is |
| 12:33.20 | ImpyDroid | Tiny space |
| 12:33.21 | ImpyDroid | yiy |
| 12:34.02 | Wormy_ | The page states things like encirclements and blockades were useless nearly in space combat, and large military installations would be easy targets. So military would be small, hidden, quick to accelerate, and so on |
| 12:34.04 | ImpyDroid | Seriously though, outside the scope, we need to decide how widespread space travel is there and if so, how it works |
| 12:34.21 | Wormy_ | *so military assets |
| 12:36.01 | Wormy_ | ImpyDroid: We need to first decide how widespread FTL technology is, if it even exists. |
| 12:36.07 | Ghelaptop | For most of the history of the setting, the only propulsion will presumably have been rockets and sails: no reactionless drives or FTL. |
| 12:36.33 | Wormy_ | Bussard ramjets plz |
| 12:36.49 | ImpyDroid | This could be interesting |
| 12:36.54 | ImpyDroid | What about wormholes? |
| 12:37.24 | Ghelaptop | Wormholes would be another example of FTL that won't exist in the early setting, but could be introduced later. |
| 12:37.47 | Wormy_ | Would require high energy physics I think, so that would have to be at least a Kardashev II civilisation or late Tier 3 by my standards |
| 12:38.13 | Ghelaptop | When you only have rockets (including ramjets), some interplanetary spacecraft could be small, like real-world craft are. However, starships would have to be gigantic vessels made primarily of fuel tanks. |
| 12:38.27 | Wormy_ | I'm quite interested in looking at how a civilisation manages itself over a time delay of 15 light years, which could be a part of the history of the setting |
| 12:39.22 | Wormy_ | "Engines the size of small worlds" Carl Sagan |
| 12:39.40 | Ghelaptop | Empire-building would be difficult. Trade would mostly be information, sent via laser, but material artefacts (like authentic antiques or works of art) could be shipped for a very high cost. |
| 12:40.22 | Ghelaptop | So civilisation would be mostly made up of sovereign/autonomous states the size of a solar system at most. |
| 12:40.46 | Technobliterator | Drodo should definitely write the military stuff, him and Panda have always been best at that |
| 12:40.49 | Wormy_ | ImpyDroid: Get Sagan'd https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGE-WRqgPRE |
| 12:41.08 | Ghelaptop | Ideologies - political, religious and otherwise - would be the main factors binding people together across the stars. |
| 12:42.28 | Wormy_ | Fast Interstellar travel would also be limited in a way, because the ships have to either turn around or have a laser aimed at them from the destination colony |
| 12:42.39 | Wormy_ | to slow down |
| 12:42.51 | Wormy_ | And that means lengthening the journey |
| 12:43.41 | Ghelaptop | Yes, decceleration is important too. In practice, ships would probably almost never cruise at constant speed; they'd speed up for the first half of the journey and then slow down for the second half. |
| 12:44.29 | Ghelaptop | If the acceleration is at 1 g (for whatever g is the surface gravity that the species is adapted to), then this also provides the artificial gravity. |
| 12:49.29 | ImpyDroid | So at the start we will have zero FTL basically |
| 12:49.51 | Ghelaptop | Yes. |
| 12:50.00 | Wormy_ | Or at least, under development |
| 12:50.15 | ImpyDroid | This would likely transform most planets into city states and any interplanetary empires into Aztec Empire-ish indirectly ruled alliances |
| 12:50.23 | Wormy_ | Lets think about characters too |
| 12:50.25 | ImpyDroid | Of these world states |
| 12:50.35 | Wormy_ | Intrepid explorers |
| 12:50.37 | Ghelaptop | Essentially, yes. |
| 12:50.44 | ImpyDroid | A sexy lesbian couple |
| 12:50.47 | ImpyDroid | ^ there you have it |
| 12:51.12 | Wormy_ | I'm reminded of Humanity's Expansion era from before the Qax invasion |
| 12:51.27 | Wormy_ | They had wormholes but used GUTships for the most part |
| 12:52.10 | Wormy_ | Used ice as a reaction mass and heated it up to GUT temperatures |
| 12:53.13 | Wormy_ | Anyway, Baxter filled the *Solar System* with weird alien life and AI technology |
| 12:53.15 | Ghelaptop | Then protons decay into positions and you basically have an antimatter-catalysed fusion drive; is that the idea? |
| 12:53.31 | Ghelaptop | positrons* |
| 12:53.33 | Wormy_ | I think so yeah |
| 12:54.34 | Ghelaptop | That does also raise the question of whether we'll include GUT ideas. |
| 12:56.16 | Ghelaptop | Hugely efficient fusion reactors are one advantage (achieved by monopoles in OA). |
| 12:56.41 | Wormy_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 12:57.45 | Ghelaptop | The idea of "magmatter"/"monopolium" I don't think is actually predicted by any GUTs, but it's certainly a popular way of getting super-strong materials in the SporeWikiverse, and is presumably behind how starship-mounted relativistic weapons are launched. |
| 12:58.08 | Wormy_ | Some essencew of the Logic creatures survived each time, and perceived a sky that represented the limit to their world. The sky was in fact the scientist's brain, as he was a cyborg connected to the system. The logic creatures killed him, and then consumed the entire moon |
| 12:58.10 | Ghelaptop | Actually, you shouldn't need multiple types of monopolium for the latter. |
| 12:58.41 | Ghelaptop | Wormy_: Mathematics taking on physical form sounds a little like strong emergence to me. :P |
| 12:59.11 | Wormy_ | Well, that's because he *created* them |
| 12:59.50 | Wormy_ | They were actually a nanotech organism but pursued knowledge by perceiving mathematics alone. |
| 13:00.45 | Wormy_ | Omce they;d worked out how to hack his brain and turn the quantum switch off, their growth didn't stop until the Nereid collapsed from being converted |
| 13:01.00 | Wormy_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 13:03.12 | Wormy_ | There was also a Pluto-Charon ecosyste, |
| 13:04.01 | Wormy_ | I can't remember precisely but organisms could migrate from one to the other during a certain time of the year. |
| 13:06.03 | Wormy_ | That was it, spider-like creatures that could spin elevator-likewebs from one to the other during the Pluto summer |
| 13:09.43 | Wormy_ | I don't think we should copy Baxter or OA in our Super Collab |
| 13:10.30 | Wormy_ | However, I think it would be interesting to explore a good range of weird alien biologies. |
| 13:11.04 | Wormy_ | Perhaps not sentient |
| 13:16.10 | Ghelaptop | Definitely don't copy them. |
| 13:16.42 | Ghelaptop | But the general idea of creativity should be kept. |
| 13:16.44 | Wormy_ | We can do better |
| 13:17.34 | Wormy_ | Our version of hyperspatial warfare is very detailed. The only other author I'm aware of using it was Iain Banks. |
| 13:20.26 | *** join/#sporewiki Tek0516 (uid149600@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-aafqnrmhkeisefux) |
| 13:23.42 | Wormy_ | Another thing we should decide is what our starter species is |
| 13:25.32 | Ghelaptop | Yes. I suggest something fairly humanoid as they're basically a stand-in for humans. At least, it's presumably this species we're going to be able to relate to most. |
| 13:27.09 | Ghelaptop | And by "humanoid", I basically mean "two legs, two arms, and a head". Anything from Grimbolsaurians to Radeons should be more than humanoid enough. |
| 13:29.16 | Ghelaptop | Four limbs is the realistic maximum: limbs require lots of resources to grow and more brain to operate, so the fewer limbs you have the less likely you are to starve and go extinct in a famine. |
| 13:33.10 | Ghelaptop | Genetic engineering of large many-limbed creatures would of course be possible when the technology is available. |
| 13:33.41 | Ghelaptop | Of course, there are real-world defiers of that reasoning, like the octopus. |
| 13:36.32 | Ghelaptop | But I believe most cephalopods are generally small, with deep-sea gigantism providing the exception to that rule. |
| 13:36.38 | Ghelaptop | exceptions* |
| 13:38.08 | Ghelaptop | Presumably a lower temperature means a slower metabolism for cold-blooded creatures, but that would be lethal to endotherms like humans. |
| 13:39.50 | Wormy_ | Indeed |
| 13:49.28 | ImpyDroid | Could just be humabs |
| 13:49.33 | ImpyDroid | *humans |
| 13:49.46 | ImpyDroid | Or at least something very humanlike |
| 13:51.33 | Ghelaptop | I suppose if we do humans, I could put into place an idea I had of keeping the word for "Earth" similar to the Proto-Indo-European word, https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/d%CA%B0%C3%A9%C7%B5%CA%B0%C5%8Dm |
| 13:52.21 | Ghelaptop | Then say that evolves into something like "Dheghum", and the inhabitants become known as "Dheghumans" or "humans" for short, and thus humans become more obviously a race named after their homeworld. |
| 13:53.50 | Ghelaptop | Because "Terran", I think, is too cliché. |
| 13:54.47 | ImpyDroid | So basically a race of PIE people whose language was extremely conservative |
| 13:55.59 | Ghelaptop | Not really. Just in the relationship between the word for "Earth" and the word for "human". |
| 13:56.11 | Ghelaptop | Not necessarily* |
| 13:56.20 | ImpyDroid | Dheghuman sounds awful tho |
| 13:56.28 | ImpyDroid | We could easily remove the hs |
| 13:56.35 | ImpyDroid | Degman |
| 13:56.41 | ImpyDroid | Degum |
| 13:56.46 | Ghelaptop | Yeah it sounds awful; that's why everyone shortens it to "human". :P |
| 13:56.57 | ImpyDroid | ...Genius |
| 13:58.20 | ImpyDroid | We should then make a more generic, descriptive name for not!Earth |
| 13:58.31 | OluapPlayer | Ear |
| 13:59.16 | ImpyDroid | Or at least simplify "Dheghum" into "Degum", with the implication that the Old Human aspirated consonants vanished in modern-day Human |
| 14:00.04 | Ghelaptop | So "Dheghum" could be like how "Terra" is to us? |
| 14:00.08 | ImpyDroid | Perhaps |
| 14:01.38 | Wormy_ | https://twitter.com/DavidDeutschOxf/status/719181817287467008 |
| 14:01.49 | Ghelaptop | Are there generic, descriptive names for Earth that we could start with? |
| 14:01.59 | ImpyDroid | Or here is how it could work: like in Proto-Slavic, the final -um and -us would be reduced to a simple short vowel, while the consonants would be reduced in a Germanic-ish manner, with central vowels lengthening and eventually developing into diphtongs |
| 14:02.01 | ImpyDroid | Giving us |
| 14:02.02 | Wormy_ | I kind of like how Deutsch doesn't overly praise ancient cultures |
| 14:02.09 | ImpyDroid | Taiko |
| 14:02.17 | ImpyDroid | It sounds much more pleasant to the ear |
| 14:02.43 | Ghelaptop | Yeah, that works. |
| 14:02.59 | ImpyDroid | OR like in Greek aspirants could develop into more mushy sounds |
| 14:03.06 | ImpyDroid | Thaiho |
| 14:03.22 | ImpyDroid | Thaicho, with "ch" as in "loch" |
| 14:03.35 | ImpyDroid | Actually no that'd be weird |
| 14:03.38 | Hachiman | Why not just call it Earth and call humans as "humans" |
| 14:03.52 | Hachiman | We do that in both the Fictionverse and call humans "humans" in the Fantasyverse |
| 14:04.06 | ImpyDroid | Because that makes it impossible to fuse it with the Fictionverse |
| 14:04.07 | ImpyDroid | Also less fun |
| 14:04.17 | Hachiman | I thought it was its own thing |
| 14:04.46 | Hachiman | Random said that he wants no space magic involved; that means no fusing it with the Fictionverse |
| 14:05.38 | ImpyDroid | It could be a less space magic region of the Fictionverse |
| 14:05.43 | ImpyDroid | We have places like this already |
| 14:05.59 | ImpyDroid | Anyway |
| 14:06.09 | Ghelaptop | Calling it "Earth" makes it feel to me like the history and surrounding universe need to resemble the real world too. |
| 14:07.01 | Wormy_ | Yeah, why not just place it in our future in that sense? |
| 14:07.14 | ImpyDroid | Could be yeah |
| 14:07.21 | ImpyDroid | But back to my point |
| 14:07.46 | ImpyDroid | Actually converting all voiced aspirated consonants into voiceless ones would imply that, until voiced consonants later developed because of other sources, it would have none |
| 14:07.52 | ImpyDroid | their language that is |
| 14:07.59 | ImpyDroid | Which would make names and such pretty limites |
| 14:08.16 | ImpyDroid | So let me converted voiced aspirated consonants into voiced ones |
| 14:08.56 | Wormy_ | I must be getting on |
| 14:09.25 | ImpyDroid | Or only certain consonants in certain position would undergo devoicing, such as in initial positions |
| 14:09.25 | ImpyDroid | Giving us |
| 14:09.26 | ImpyDroid | Thaigo |
| 14:09.35 | ImpyDroid | That sounds even more pleasant |
| 14:09.58 | ImpyDroid | gh could also develop into z or j |
| 14:10.07 | ImpyDroid | Thaizo |
| 14:10.14 | Hachiman | As far as I know, you should not be focusing on eventually fusing it with the Fictionverse but that's just what I figure Jo would say |
| 14:10.57 | Ghelaptop | You're right, but that's also not the main reason we're having this discussion. |
| 14:11.32 | ImpyDroid | Also if it is like the Slavic languages, a suffix or two could be added to the end |
| 14:11.44 | ImpyDroid | Thaizen |
| 14:11.47 | ImpyDroid | But that sounds too alien |
| 14:13.06 | ImpyDroid | Actually how should the Dheghuman language sound like |
| 14:13.48 | Ghelaptop | I don't know. Alien is fine. |
| 14:15.03 | ImpyDroid | He raises a good point tho |
| 14:15.18 | ImpyDroid | Should we have Earth or an alien human world |
| 14:15.18 | Ghelaptop | Given how often the "randomly hit the keyboard and add vowels where necessary" technique of creating names is used here, I suppose the Dheghuman language should be consistent with names obtained by that method. |
| 14:16.28 | Ghelaptop | I'd prefer something that isn't Earth. It could well be similar; it depends on how much you feel like having a ready-made pre-spaceflight history would be helpful rather than limiting. |
| 14:16.29 | ImpyDroid | But that is what the language specialists are here for hur |
| 14:16.44 | ImpyDroid | ~smack everyone |
| 14:16.45 | infobot | ACTION smacks everyone upside the head. |
| 14:16.54 | ImpyDroid | Vooooote |
| 14:17.10 | OluapPlayer | go werk on kalisearan |
| 14:20.26 | ImpyDroid | Actually "Taiko", the original suggestion, sounds a lot like "tycoon", which has certain exploratory undertones |
| 14:21.04 | Ghelaptop | This seems like something that should be put on the page as a second issue in the discussion section: how humanlike should our prime species and how Earthlike should their homeworld be? |
| 14:22.26 | ImpyDroid | Someone do it |
| 14:22.35 | Ghelaptop | does it |
| 14:22.55 | ImpyDroid | Hachiman: http://i.4cdn.org/pol/1460382754362.jpg |
| 14:32.30 | ImpyDroid | Or Planet Tycho |
| 14:32.30 | ImpyDroid | Planet Tycho sounds awesome |
| 14:34.05 | ImpyDroid | Ghelaptop: With only 15 lys of space, will we only have one sentient race? |
| 14:34.56 | Ghelaptop | There'll probably be no aliens within that volume, but genetic engineering and other such things will allow for other sapients to exist. |
| 14:37.24 | ImpyDroid | Interesting |
| 14:37.34 | ImpyDroid | Maybe some sort of truly alien life? |
| 14:38.52 | ImpyDroid | How many of the worlds we have will be lifebearing though? |
| 14:41.11 | Wormy_away | Red and brown dwarf stars are quite hostile to complex life tbh, most of the stars will be those. Though there are always possibilities. |
| 14:41.29 | ImpyDroid | That makes the "15 light years" idea problematic |
| 14:41.42 | ImpyDroid | As there will be very few lifebearing settings |
| 14:41.54 | Wormy_away | I don't think it does to a spacefaring species |
| 14:42.15 | Wormy_away | They will have the knowledge to adapt such environments to their wishes. |
| 14:43.04 | ImpyDroid | So a lot of terraformed worlds |
| 14:43.26 | ImpyDroid | Actually about alien species |
| 14:43.34 | Wormy_away | However, I'm open to the idea of holding the boundaries of potential habitability very low, so there could be some worlds with interesting biologies, even when still carbon based. |
| 14:43.54 | Ghelaptop | http://spore.wikia.com/wiki/SporeWiki:Super_Collab#Issue_2:_Main_species_and_homeworld |
| 14:43.57 | ImpyDroid | What about stories of specifically adapted humans or aliens used to facilitate colonisation of otherwise inhospitable environments |
| 14:44.21 | Wormy_away | I think that's certainly a direction we can go in |
| 14:44.23 | Ghelaptop | That could happen as well as terraforming, yes. |
| 14:44.39 | ImpyDroid | Like |
| 14:44.45 | ImpyDroid | Planet is nothing but water |
| 14:44.50 | ImpyDroid | THROW DOLPHINS ON IT |
| 14:44.55 | ImpyDroid | MAKE DOLPHINS SMART |
| 14:44.57 | Wormy_away | There might be either an incentive to adapt a world, or to adapt people to a world through genetic engineering or technology. Or both. |
| 14:45.09 | ImpyDroid | DOLPHINS GATHER DATA AND RELAY IT BACK TO HUMANS |
| 14:45.12 | Ghelaptop | Early terraforming will also take a century or longer, so adaptations will be more common in the early setting. |
| 14:45.28 | Ghelaptop | Including smart dolphins. |
| 14:45.37 | Wormy_away | Smart Cephalopods |
| 14:45.55 | ImpyDroid | I have the mental image of dolphins literally dropped from space on Planets |
| 14:45.58 | ImpyDroid | *plants |
| 14:46.05 | ImpyDroid | *planets |
| 14:46.37 | ImpyDroid | Wormy_away: Dolphin is not PC you speciecist human supremacist cephalopodophobe shitlord |
| 14:46.54 | ImpyDroid | Who wants to kill 6 billion cephalopods |
| 14:47.00 | Wormy_away | Actually, smart worms are a good idea. Once soil has been enfused with bacteria and organic detritus, worms could do recycling. The worms could also prospect for mineral deposits, the water table, and so on. |
| 14:47.11 | ImpyDroid | That's both cool and creepy |
| 14:48.16 | Wormy_away | I believe Dolphins are already smart |
| 14:48.24 | Wormy_away | Read up on John C Lilly |
| 14:48.39 | ImpyDroid | This reminds me of the university assignment we had a few weeks ago |
| 14:48.45 | Wormy_away | They just aren't tool users |
| 14:49.11 | ImpyDroid | We had to take some non-verbal system, such as music, hand gestures or sign language |
| 14:49.19 | ImpyDroid | And dissect it as a language |
| 14:49.31 | Ghelaptop | If these humans are from not!Earth, then the not!Earth dolphins could have human-like intelligence regardless of whether or not that's perfectly accurate for Earth dolphins. |
| 14:49.33 | ImpyDroid | find equivalents to letters, words, sentences etc |
| 14:49.43 | ImpyDroid | I could try making dolphinspeak |
| 14:51.00 | Wormy_away | https://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/the-ketamine-secrets-of-segas-ecco-the-dolphin-347 |
| 14:51.04 | Ghelaptop | If you want to do that, go ahead. And if people decide they don't want to use humans, we could repurpose it for dolphin-like not!Earth creatures instead. |
| 14:52.34 | Wormy_away | If we do have space magic, I also want Psychedelic Machine Elves |
| 14:52.50 | Wormy_away | Vitamin K enhanced Doplhins |
| 14:53.23 | Wormy_away | Tune in, turn on, drop out. |
| 14:53.25 | Wormy_away | bbl |
| 15:03.32 | *** join/#sporewiki ImpyDroid2 (~Anders@host-48-159-66-217.spbmts.ru) |
| 15:07.13 | *** join/#sporewiki The_Randomness (~The_Rando@nat-portal-160-94-47-18.uofm.wireless.umn.edu) |
| 15:07.13 | *** mode/#sporewiki [+o The_Randomness] by ChanServ |
| 15:07.30 | The_Randomness | Hello |
| 15:08.27 | Ghelaptop | Hello. |
| 15:09.33 | *** join/#sporewiki ImpyDroid (~Anders@host-86-157-66-217.spbmts.ru) |
| 15:09.53 | AdmiralPanda | hi random |
| 15:10.01 | The_Randomness | Hey |
| 15:31.37 | *** join/#sporewiki ImpyDroid (~Anders@host-86-157-66-217.spbmts.ru) |
| 15:42.08 | ImpyDroid | The_Randomness: I came up with the most retarded idea for a Fantasyverse race ever |
| 15:42.18 | The_Randomness | What's that? |
| 15:43.01 | ImpyDroid | Basically, a race of brutish, aggressive orcs who call themselves "the Essem". They would also tear people's faces as trophies and thus be called "Face Hunters" as well as "Essem orcs" |
| 15:43.23 | ImpyDroid | They would also use kappas as attack beasts |
| 15:43.30 | ImpyDroid | As in mythological cappas |
| 15:43.32 | ImpyDroid | *kappas |
| 15:43.42 | Hachiman | Kappa |
| 15:45.20 | ImpyDroid | Wait |
| 15:45.34 | ImpyDroid | Do you guys know what "SMOrc" means? |
| 15:45.36 | ImpyDroid | Both of you |
| 15:45.36 | The_Randomness | Eh, merely mentioning "brutish" makes me dislike it already, since you're already at great risk of making the typical barbarian race. e.g. the stereotypical horse nomads (see GoT) |
| 15:45.39 | The_Randomness | Yes |
| 15:45.56 | ImpyDroid | It was a joke about Twitch memes |
| 15:45.57 | ImpyDroid | hur |
| 15:46.05 | ImpyDroid | ...Meh I am bad at humour |
| 15:48.40 | Hachiman | It's got something to do with Hearthstone |
| 15:48.46 | Hachiman | And I have no knowledge of it hur |
| 15:49.34 | The_Randomness | Yeah, I know some Hearthstone memes |
| 15:49.50 | AdmiralPanda | SMOrc itself is a picture of a space marine ork, and it was a twitch emote that a streamer's fanbase spammed whenever he attacked his opponent directly |
| 15:50.29 | AdmiralPanda | that being an ork from the game space marine, not an ork who is a space marine |
| 15:55.53 | The_Randomness | Yeah, that's pretty much it |
| 15:56.47 | The_Randomness | I'm off for now, have class soon. See you guys in a bit |
| 16:03.15 | Charles_Murray | ImpyDroid You dere? |
| 16:11.25 | Technobliterator | what happened to Ghel |
| 16:13.17 | Ghel | I hope that answers your question. |
| 16:15.30 | Ghel | As to your question on the super collab page, I'll answer that one there now too. |
| 16:21.34 | Technobliterator | :p |
| 16:21.38 | Ghel | Done. But of course let me know if you have any other concerns. |
| 16:21.40 | Technobliterator | I came to ask if I'd interpreted you correctly |
| 16:23.20 | Technobliterator | Okay, so |
| 16:23.30 | Technobliterator | Does this mean this main species serves mostly as an audience surrogate? |
| 16:23.43 | Technobliterator | As in, the rise to the space stage is told from their perspective? |
| 16:25.20 | Ghel | That's one way to think of it. But if we have multiple species of humanoid aliens evolving independently in that small volume of space and without their early spacefaring history being influenced by any other species that came before, then we'd treat them all equally as "main species" from that perspective. |
| 16:27.24 | Ghel | There is an implicit assumption that we won't have two species in the region that are independently at the same level of development at the same time. |
| 16:27.38 | Ghel | It could happen, though, so I can't discount it. |
| 16:27.45 | Wormy_away | I replied on the project page |
| 16:28.44 | Technobliterator | I think something like a few more important "council" species a la Mass Effect could work |
| 16:30.01 | Technobliterator | My main reason for opposing humans, other than the fact it'd lead to arguing over what would happen to Earth leading to this scenario and klack of creativity, is that this is a Spore wiki. The creature creation is a larfge part of that |
| 16:31.43 | Ghel | I'll also note what Random said me: "I think I'll advocate for having it not be Earth, since I've seen too many botched attempts at extrapolating the future of Earth already in other places" |
| 16:31.52 | Technobliterator | yeah |
| 16:31.55 | Technobliterator | like |
| 16:32.25 | Technobliterator | I don't want to see all the possible futures where President Trump bombs everyone and somehow we end up in space after that |
| 16:32.26 | Technobliterator | or something |
| 16:33.06 | Tek0516 | http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/1460388598-20160411.png |
| 16:34.06 | Technobliterator | bbl gym |
| 16:41.04 | Wormy_away | I find it funny that I talk about the Xeelee Sequence so much, SporeWiki's IRC logs appear in searches and google images. |
| 16:41.55 | Wormy_away | Usually Cyrannian's spaceships |
| 16:42.25 | Charles_Murray | *pokes ImpyDroid |
| 16:42.40 | Wormy_away | Must be two common regularities that synchronise. |
| 16:44.54 | Wormy_away | O_o the patterns are even nested. Look http://tinyurl.com/jfpbqys |
| 16:45.19 | *** join/#sporewiki Quark8 (49c685a7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.73.198.133.167) |
| 16:45.21 | Quark8 | Hello. |
| 16:46.52 | Ghel | Hello. |
| 17:05.44 | *** join/#sporewiki OfficerJackal (~OfficerJa@2601:6c0:4202:1ad0:c006:1edf:6dd0:7046) |
| 17:35.52 | Wormy_away | It is amusing to watch or hear one's dog attempting to dig on a hard floor. |
| 17:36.39 | *** join/#sporewiki The_Randomness (~The_Rando@nat-portal-160-94-47-18.uofm.wireless.umn.edu) |
| 17:36.39 | *** mode/#sporewiki [+o The_Randomness] by ChanServ |
| 17:36.50 | The_Randomness | Hello |
| 17:37.15 | Wormy_away | hi |
| 17:37.55 | *** join/#sporewiki Xho (97e0b21a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.151.224.178.26) |
| 17:38.33 | Wormy_ | hi |
| 17:39.01 | Xho | meow |
| 17:39.48 | Wormy_ | Get it together Santorakh, you are not a cat. |
| 18:07.42 | *** join/#sporewiki OluapPlayer (badafdcd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.186.218.253.205) |
| 18:07.42 | *** mode/#sporewiki [+o OluapPlayer] by ChanServ |
| 18:07.57 | Xho | arf |
| 18:08.06 | OluapPlayer | EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE |
| 18:08.20 | Xho | well bugger |
| 18:10.32 | Xho | So I was gonna get started on the Kelodhrosi Commonwealth page |
| 18:10.37 | Xho | Realised I did the history ages ago |
| 18:10.38 | Xho | gg xho |
| 18:12.32 | OluapPlayer | one dragollion years later |
| 18:13.06 | Xho | December 19 was the last time I edited it |
| 18:15.13 | ImpyDroid | Technobliterator: About there being several main species Calibrationverse-style |
| 18:16.02 | ImpyDroid | Problem is with a small space like ours, there will probably be just one race that evolved naturally |
| 18:17.41 | The_Randomness | I was thinking one or two that will be in it |
| 18:20.07 | The_Randomness | I'm leaning a little more towards one |
| 18:21.42 | ImpyDroid | Ya |
| 18:22.24 | Hachiman | So it's just a humanverse |
| 18:22.40 | The_Randomness | Not necessarily |
| 18:23.16 | The_Randomness | But it will likely one have one or two species that we create. |
| 18:23.30 | ImpyDroid | There could be different sentient species, but these would likely be artificial |
| 18:23.43 | ImpyDroid | Unless we expand the verse slightly |
| 18:23.47 | ImpyDroid | To like 100 lyears |
| 18:24.05 | The_Randomness | Eh, let's not get into artificial species and such, that's getting into stuff that I'd rather not deal with |
| 18:24.41 | Wormy_ | I'm leaning towards only one sentient species tbh. |
| 18:24.57 | The_Randomness | Same |
| 18:25.21 | Wormy_ | There could always be a contest with a vote for the best creation. And those that don't get selected could be used later as we expand. |
| 18:25.36 | The_Randomness | If we expand |
| 18:26.43 | Wormy_ | But I'm more open to the possibility of adapted colonists, albeit not superior but having limits of their own. |
| 18:27.42 | Wormy_ | If we can expand, we will. That's inevitable. |
| 18:31.16 | The_Randomness | Right |
| 18:32.45 | Technobliterator | I would much rather have two to three |
| 18:32.55 | Technobliterator | If we have to expand space because of that, I'm game |
| 18:37.58 | *** join/#sporewiki Wormy__ (02184654@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.24.70.84) |
| 18:38.12 | Wormy__ | hi |
| 18:38.46 | *** join/#sporewiki DrodoEmpire (adfc264b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.252.38.75) |
| 18:38.47 | *** join/#sporewiki Charles_Bot (uid94017@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qzkkinsmzjsauvht) |
| 18:38.55 | DrodoEmpire | Hi everyone |
| 18:39.01 | Charles_Bot | Hey |
| 18:39.20 | The_Randomness | Hello |
| 18:41.47 | *** join/#sporewiki The_Randomness (~The_Rando@172.56.21.20) |
| 18:41.47 | *** mode/#sporewiki [+o The_Randomness] by ChanServ |
| 18:42.44 | The_Randomness | hm, that was odd |
| 18:46.29 | *** join/#sporewiki ImpyDroid (~Anders@host-86-157-66-217.spbmts.ru) |
| 18:48.34 | ImpyDroid | Did anybody say anything |
| 18:50.18 | Technobliterator | nope |
| 18:50.37 | The_Randomness | No |
| 18:53.16 | Ghel | Well, presumably Imp timed out shortly after the last thing he said. |
| 18:54.39 | Ghel | If that's the case, then there's a few things that were said afterwards. |
| 18:54.51 | ImpyDroid | right |
| 18:55.10 | Ghel | [19:24] <@The_Randomness> Eh, let's not get into artificial species and such, that's getting into stuff that I'd rather not deal with |
| 18:55.15 | Ghel | [19:24] <Wormy_> I'm leaning towards only one sentient species tbh. |
| 18:55.31 | Ghel | ...actually, I'll just post it in private chat. |
| 18:56.21 | ImpyDroid | Oh |
| 18:56.38 | ImpyDroid | Hachiman; What animals could Kalisearan be associated with other than big cats |
| 18:56.59 | Hachiman | Hm |
| 18:57.49 | OluapPlayer | medium cats |
| 18:57.57 | ImpyDroid | So housecats |
| 18:57.59 | ImpyDroid | Could work |
| 18:58.04 | Hachiman | Hyenas, eagles (cus freedom), perhaps spiders |
| 18:58.17 | ImpyDroid | >hyenas |
| 18:58.23 | ImpyDroid | NOOOOOOO |
| 18:58.27 | Hachiman | kek |
| 18:58.35 | Xho | small cats |
| 18:58.47 | Xho | I am out of ideas |
| 18:59.53 | OluapPlayer | wat u got against hyenas |
| 19:00.38 | ImpyDroid | OluapPlayer: Literal species of futanaris |
| 19:01.39 | ImpyDroid | The_Randomness: About species |
| 19:01.40 | Hachiman | Exactly; why wouldn't Kalisearan fit hur |
| 19:01.46 | ImpyDroid | ...Truw |
| 19:01.49 | The_Randomness | ImpyDroid: ? |
| 19:01.53 | ImpyDroid | *True |
| 19:01.59 | ImpyDroid | I am with Jo on this one |
| 19:02.03 | ImpyDroid | We need some diversity |
| 19:02.08 | The_Randomness | Why? |
| 19:02.33 | ImpyDroid | Because just one species is not very interesting unless you make it very diverse |
| 19:02.43 | ImpyDroid | Whether through making the world a bit larger or introducing some artificial species |
| 19:03.02 | DrodoEmpire | I dunno how I feel about one sapient species |
| 19:03.11 | DrodoEmpire | *Maybe* one spacefaring sapient species |
| 19:03.13 | The_Randomness | Are humans not diverse? What is to say that other species aren't as diverse as we are? |
| 19:03.52 | DrodoEmpire | Yeah aliens, especially ones who're new to spacefaring, would still almost definitely have dozens of unique cultures and ethnicities |
| 19:04.03 | DrodoEmpire | One thing I dislike the most is every alien having exactly one culture |
| 19:04.09 | The_Randomness | Yeah |
| 19:04.24 | Ghel | Culturally, one species is more than enough diversity. Physiologically, that's different. |
| 19:04.46 | DrodoEmpire | I try to avoid it with the Drodo by emphasizing that the Empire is a huge patchwork of Drodo cultures and some alien ones as well |
| 19:05.04 | Xho | moar aliens pls |
| 19:05.16 | The_Randomness | The thing is, for roleplay purposes and such, physiological diversity isn't *that* big of a deal. |
| 19:05.31 | DrodoEmpire | Yeah I'd prefer more aliens |
| 19:05.39 | DrodoEmpire | I dunno though its not my decision I guess |
| 19:06.10 | *** join/#sporewiki ImpyDroid2 (~Anders@95.140.92.144) |
| 19:06.18 | Hachiman | Physiological diversity can also be a human thing depending on the nature of biological and cybernetic augmentation and its place in future human cultures, but then, I'm not involved with the collab so |
| 19:06.35 | Xho | augmented snort snort |
| 19:06.37 | ImpyDroid2 | That is my idea |
| 19:07.16 | ImpyDroid2 | Humanoids, some tweaks and artificial species, and then a genuinely alien race |
| 19:07.42 | The_Randomness | I'll stick with my opinion regarding one sapient species. I think any more would just make things difficult and lead to less detail in each one |
| 19:07.44 | DrodoEmpire | I'm really just interested in the idea of there being pre-spacefaring groups |
| 19:07.55 | DrodoEmpire | Its an idea I don't find is touched on much in the main scifiverse |
| 19:07.59 | The_Randomness | Yeah, there can be that too |
| 19:08.15 | ImpyDroid2 | Hmmm |
| 19:08.15 | DrodoEmpire | I try with the Silvan but I mean, they're too small to be very significant beyond something interesting to write about |
| 19:08.38 | Ghel | It is likely that some groups would decide to settle on a planet and then adopt a primtive lifestyle (although the planet does have to be habitable first). |
| 19:08.48 | DrodoEmpire | Or regress to that due to some disaster |
| 19:08.51 | ImpyDroid2 | So like one really advanced species and a bunch of barbarians living on their planets in whose developments aliens would try not to interfere? |
| 19:09.00 | ImpyDroid2 | Or yes lost degenerated colonies |
| 19:09.58 | DrodoEmpire | So if this idea even takes flight I guess I'm calling a world or at least a group of primitives to write about :p |
| 19:10.05 | DrodoEmpire | *a primitive world |
| 19:10.33 | The_Randomness | I'm thinking at most two spacefaring races, and that does not necessarily limit us to two civilizations |
| 19:11.40 | DrodoEmpire | Right |
| 19:12.04 | Technobliterator | I think we should only have a single civilisation in the beginning |
| 19:12.05 | Ghel | For the problem of how much detail we put into them, we ought to see how people actually go about putting detail into pages. |
| 19:12.16 | Ghel | It might turn out to be fine. But it will be a distraction at the start. |
| 19:12.18 | ImpyDroid2 | The_Randomness: We can customize that one race tho |
| 19:12.23 | Technobliterator | We could maybe expand to about 30 light years if needed |
| 19:12.39 | ImpyDroid2 | As in |
| 19:12.41 | The_Randomness | ImpyDroid2: What do you mean? |
| 19:12.56 | ImpyDroid2 | You know how Asimov had Spacers and Settlers? |
| 19:13.10 | The_Randomness | No, never read his stuff |
| 19:13.14 | ImpyDroid2 | Basically |
| 19:13.44 | The_Randomness | I need to go to class now, Wormy__ is going to be posting something about this sometime soonish |
| 19:13.46 | ImpyDroid2 | Different variations of one species with vastly different culture and altered biology and the like |
| 19:13.55 | ImpyDroid2 | So we have baseline guys |
| 19:14.09 | ImpyDroid2 | Buff dorf guys for high gravity |
| 19:14.11 | ImpyDroid2 | Etc |
| 19:14.29 | The_Randomness | Yeah, no. I've already beat this topic to death with Wormulon and I have no intention of doing this again |
| 19:15.22 | Technobliterator | uh, isn't that to an extent what we have on earth anyway? |
| 19:15.43 | Wormy__ | I;m ewating my dinner, then I'll post |
| 19:16.10 | The_Randomness | I need to go, see you guys in a few hours |
| 19:16.33 | Hachiman | Seems like Random's being pretty controlling for a seemingly "super-collab" |
| 19:16.53 | Charles_Bot | ImpyDroid2: http://spore.wikia.com/wiki/Fiction:French_Empire#Head_of_State |
| 19:16.59 | Charles_Bot | I wrote a thing |
| 19:17.05 | ImpyDroid2 | Seen that |
| 19:17.18 | Charles_Bot | Can I has thoughts? |
| 19:17.22 | ImpyDroid2 | Your version of constitutional monarchy is very interesting |
| 19:17.49 | Xho | OluapPlayer: http://spore.wikia.com/wiki/Fiction:Kelodhrosi_Commonwealth#Characteristics dergons |
| 19:17.56 | Charles_Bot | How do? |
| 19:18.00 | Charles_Bot | How so* |
| 19:18.08 | OluapPlayer | drug on |
| 19:18.19 | ImpyDroid2 | So the idea is "once Alex hits the bucket, the Assembly convenes and decides how much power his son should have, from ceremonial to near-absolute; when he dies, do the same, rinse and repeat" |
| 19:18.21 | ImpyDroid2 | Right? |
| 19:19.33 | Charles_Bot | Sort of. The systems come together to produce that effect, but it's not as simple as a body deciding how much power he should have |
| 19:19.53 | Charles_Bot | You'll notice that, out of all the title Alexandre holds, only two are hereditary |
| 19:20.18 | Charles_Bot | The others were given to him either through democratic vote or democratic appointment |
| 19:20.21 | ImpyDroid2 | Huh |
| 19:20.34 | ImpyDroid2 | So he is a bit like a Roman Emperor in that regard |
| 19:21.38 | Charles_Bot | His power is mostly contained within those titles, and the moral authority of his office |
| 19:21.43 | Charles_Bot | Which is his to curate |
| 19:22.57 | ImpyDroid2 | So in practice, once he dies/is voted out of power, all these titles will become vacant, and may be taken by either one person or several |
| 19:24.26 | Xho | So there's two characters for the Commonwealth I need to make |
| 19:24.34 | Xho | Sercasnar and Nalganex |
| 19:24.40 | ImpyDroid2 | Kinda like how Roman emperors were both principes of the Senate, imperatores of the military, pontifices maximi etc |
| 19:24.42 | ImpyDroid2 | Right? |
| 19:26.14 | ImpyDroid2 | djjd |
| 19:28.45 | Technobliterator | I wouldn't say it's controlling, I'd say it's just trying to take initiative and lead the project. Honestly, it's a miracle he's this active at all |
| 19:31.55 | ImpyDroid2 | And I think we still decide everything by public vote |
| 19:32.10 | ImpyDroid2 | So there is only so much power anyone can have in this |
| 19:32.11 | Hachiman | I would feel discouraged by how restrictive he is being |
| 19:32.31 | ImpyDroid2 | But you are not involved either way :P |
| 19:33.11 | Hachiman | No, I know :p |
| 19:34.43 | Technobliterator | we do, yeah |
| 19:34.54 | ImpyDroid2 | We can vote against his ideas if we do not like them |
| 19:35.08 | Technobliterator | no one has really voted against the 15 light years thing |
| 19:35.35 | ImpyDroid2 | Because nobody sees it as a bad thing |
| 19:35.43 | ImpyDroid2 | Now that we see potential problems we can |
| 19:36.34 | Ghel | I can post a few of the things he said on #cyrannus here so that people can see what his point of view is. |
| 19:38.08 | ImpyDroid2 | I checked |
| 19:38.35 | ImpyDroid2 | As far as I understand it is his personal distaste of transhumanism |
| 19:38.50 | Wormy__ | Ghel: Can you do that, while I submit the Issue and subjec to the project |
| 19:38.55 | Ghel | That does look like the greatest factor. |
| 19:39.00 | Ghel | On uplifting and genetic engineering to create new sapient species: 'I dislike it since it dips into transhumanist beliefs, which is something I disagree with (to put it mildly), and I question its plausibility as well.' |
| 19:39.17 | Ghel | 'As is the anthropomorphic stuff [Wormy] showed me yesterday from OA. If we have the ability to significantly modify humans to that extent, I kind of fear that we'll start to veer into "transcending the human form." I want to keep my hands as free of transhumanism as I can.' |
| 19:39.59 | ImpyDroid2 | If Random manages to have his way |
| 19:40.08 | ImpyDroid2 | I'd like for the original species to be more exotic |
| 19:40.21 | Ghel | 'While I am not opposed to the use of genetic engineering in any way to do things like prevent/eliminate things like genetic defects or help treat diseases, I believe that adapting humans to extremely different environments lies outside of its scope, and starts to get into the area of escaping the limits of the human form, which is an area I dislike.' |
| 19:40.45 | ImpyDroid2 | If we are not going to have humans, here is one good idea: cute humanoids |
| 19:41.02 | ImpyDroid2 | A bit like Hobbits, small cute people help making transition easier |
| 19:42.59 | Ghel | Then he has some discussion on the practicality of things: |
| 19:43.10 | Ghel | [19:27] <The_Randomness> Also, why have adapted colonists when you'll have to make specialized colonies anyway? |
| 19:43.17 | Ghel | [19:31] <The_Randomness> It's presumably much, much easier to refine colony designs than it is to make massive modifications to a species to fit the environment |
| 19:43.30 | Ghel | [19:34] <Wormy_> I'm not sure on that presumption, but its true given our present situation. It could be that biological or cybernetic adaptation will become very easy and efficient to implement (what I'm imagining its not something as extreme as humans breathing the Martian atmosphere, mind) |
| 19:43.42 | Ghel | [19:36] <The_Randomness> Yeah, but then how would you deal with people coming in from other colonies without those specializations? |
| 19:43.58 | Ghel | [19:41] <Wormy__> If the modifications are extreme in that they are necessary for survival, not comfort of extra abilities, I guess they would need habitation of their own to support them. |
| 19:44.13 | Ghel | [19:42] <Wormy__> The latter of which makes in inefficient I guess |
| 19:44.27 | Ghel | [19:51] <Wormy__> In the long term, if the point is to build an economic hub for the empire, you will want to move lots of people to and from that colony. And it would better to adapt the environment with habitats or even engineer the planet rather than engineering the people. |
| 19:44.40 | Ghel | I think that's most of the important stuff. |
| 19:45.24 | Ghel | Random also described uplifting as 'absurd', and possible 'but likely on very large timescales'. |
| 19:45.29 | Technobliterator | It sounds like it's closer to hard sci fi |
| 19:45.38 | Technobliterator | than the current fictionverse |
| 19:45.55 | Ghel | [20:00] <@Ghel> But I think my original idea when mentioning genetic engineering was more about cosmetic alterations than anything transhumanist. For example, if people wanted to include cat-people, I'd think it to be more sensible that a group of humans modified themselves to look feline than that there would be feline humanoids and humans coincidentally evolving near to each other in space and time. |
| 19:46.01 | Ghel | [20:01] <@Ghel> Not that that's easy, of course. |
| 19:46.09 | Ghel | [20:01] <The_Randomness> Yeah, I think that sort of thing is silly personally |
| 19:47.33 | Ghel | I think the final quote from Wormy is what I can agree with. |
| 19:47.38 | *** join/#sporewiki Imperios (~Imperios@95.140.92.144) |
| 19:47.41 | Technobliterator | I don't think we should have sci fi that's too hard. This is a Spore wiki, after all. |
| 19:48.07 | Wormy__ | We need to balance the fun with plausibility |
| 19:48.16 | Technobliterator | yeah |
| 19:48.23 | Technobliterator | and we need as many people in as possible |
| 19:48.26 | Ghel | I don't think there's too much of a slippery slope risk of "augmentations can be better than the evolved human form" to OA style singularitarianism etc. |
| 19:48.34 | Wormy__ | Anyway, I'm writing the issue now that discusses this matter concretely |
| 19:48.37 | Technobliterator | Like, I don't want to force anyone to be involved, but the more users you have taking part, the better |
| 19:49.15 | Hachiman | From my perspective, it sounds like Random is letting his personal beliefs affect the entertainment factor for everyone else |
| 19:49.23 | Hachiman | No augmented humans, no aliens |
| 19:49.57 | Ghel | Given that he's fine with multiple species but not species of augmented humans, aliens are presumably acceptable to him. |
| 19:50.07 | Wormy__ | He may want to a stricter hard sci-fi universe but that's his opinion. It's up to the community to decide |
| 19:50.08 | Technobliterator | I wouldn't say that either. He's just stating his opinion on it |
| 19:50.10 | Wormy__ | *tto have a |
| 19:50.20 | Technobliterator | If we vote against him on that, it'll be fine |
| 19:50.44 | Hachiman | And then you lose him hur |
| 19:51.13 | Technobliterator | if he's that unwilling to compromise, then yeah |
| 19:51.21 | Hachiman | Also, to me it sounds like he is disagreeing with aliens based on the stuff he has said previously about "humans are diverse enough, why must we need aliens for diversity" |
| 19:51.40 | Hachiman | And then he goes "humans should all be the same, no genetic or cybernetic differences blah" |
| 19:52.16 | Technobliterator | I don't agree with his opinion, but he's allowed to have it |
| 19:52.19 | Imperios | ^ |
| 19:52.23 | Imperios | We can vote him to death |
| 19:52.28 | Imperios | If things go badly |
| 19:53.17 | Imperios | OfficerJackal: What is the most hillbilly/redneck state in the US? |
| 19:53.21 | Imperios | Alabama? Louisiana? |
| 19:53.30 | Technobliterator | I think it can be harder sci fi than the rest of the fictionverse, and than Spore, but...softer than he's saying ._. |
| 19:54.26 | OfficerJackal | Imperios: It's debated, some say Arkansas, some say Missisipi, other say Alabama, some say Louisiana. Some people say West Virginia 'cuz Appalachia. |
| 19:54.41 | Ghel | I'm not sure how much of what he's suggesting is hardness instead of merely arguing that things are unneccessary. |
| 19:55.04 | OfficerJackal | Imperios: Oh, the Florida Panhandle that borders Alabama is also called pretty redneck at times. |
| 19:55.17 | Charles_Bot | ImpyDroid2: yes |
| 19:55.20 | Ghel | If the former I'm not convinced; if the latter he's right but I won't have a problem if people vote against it. |
| 19:56.15 | Technobliterator | the less restrictive, the better, if you ask me |
| 19:56.52 | Ghel | And if his problem is |
| 19:56.53 | Ghel | [20:07] <@The_Randomness> I'll stick with my opinion regarding one sapient species. I think any more would just make things difficult and lead to less detail in each one |
| 19:57.00 | Charles_Bot | ImpyDroid2: Redneck is a stereotype |
| 19:57.04 | Charles_Bot | It doesn't exist |
| 19:57.05 | Ghel | then as I said, let's wait and see. |
| 19:57.23 | Imperios | I am making a Polandball comic, so I am going to need stereotypes hur |
| 19:57.25 | Charles_Bot | Nor does it have any meaningful explanatory power in America |
| 19:57.42 | OfficerJackal | Charles_Bot: I think he meant what states are considered "Redneck" in popular culture/opinion. |
| 19:57.45 | Technobliterator | Yeah...I'd rather have a larger amount of species, personally |
| 19:58.00 | Charles_Bot | Got it |
| 19:58.37 | Imperios | I am more with Randomness than with you on that part |
| 19:58.51 | Imperios | We might as well make our aliens really alien if we have them |
| 19:59.00 | *** join/#sporewiki Charles_Murray (ad2e666a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.46.102.106) |
| 19:59.23 | Technobliterator | I think it's more interesting to have settings with a diverse group of lots of aliens |
| 19:59.27 | Technobliterator | than just a few |
| 20:00.14 | Ghel | This is one of the reasons for the suggestions about augmentation: by having less-alien races actually be of human (or not!human) origin, that leaves space for really alien aliens to have evolved. |
| 20:00.44 | Imperios | That |
| 20:01.45 | Hachiman | But then Random is all "waah transhumans" |
| 20:01.45 | Ghel | Of course, if nobody wants to make any races that are practically humans wearing full-body prosthetics then it's a moot point, but I wouldn't want to rely on that being the case. |
| 20:02.10 | Technobliterator | Why not just expand the amount of space, then? ?__? |
| 20:03.09 | Ghel | ...For the same reasons we don't just expand the amount of space regardless. |
| 20:05.05 | Hachiman | Either way, I cannot help but feel Random's stance on the two issues are very paradoxical |
| 20:05.15 | Hachiman | That or he just wants the setting to be as bland as possible |
| 20:06.53 | Ghel | I don't think it's that extreme. He just doesn't seem to care for diversity in terms of biology or physical appearance, while it looks like everyone else does. |
| 20:07.28 | Xho | This is why you had users specialising in certain areas |
| 20:07.47 | Hachiman | Yeah; now it seems Random just wants to control everything |
| 20:08.47 | Ghel | What would Random's specialisation be? |
| 20:09.09 | Xho | Hachiman Imperios OluapPlayer: http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/spore/images/0/09/ValussarNalganex.png/revision/latest?cb=20160411200807 BIG FUCKING DRAGON MAN |
| 20:09.23 | Imperios | Dovahkiin |
| 20:09.28 | OluapPlayer | big red |
| 20:09.31 | Hachiman | He's a big guy |
| 20:09.52 | Xho | Nalganex - FOR YOU LONGINUS |
| 20:10.07 | Xho | But yes size wise he would constitute as a giant if he were a Deiwos |
| 20:11.26 | Xho | I mean the sword in itself is roughly Orichalcum Elf-sized |
| 20:11.57 | Xho | You would see why the Orichalcum Elves ran away with their tail between their legs when they got to the Meridian Island's shores |
| 20:12.03 | Ghel | So he could pick up a fully-armoured Orichalcum Elf and use it as a sword? |
| 20:12.14 | Ghel | Or club, I suppose. |
| 20:12.23 | Xho | Well no because he's a good guy but he potentially could |
| 20:12.58 | Xho | But the Orichalcum Elves wandered into seriously hot water when they came across the Athuslisstai |
| 20:13.01 | Wormy__ | To all that are interested http://spore.wikia.com/wiki/SporeWiki:Super_Collab#Issue_3:_The_extent_at_which_we_have_biological_and_cybernetic_modification |
| 20:13.16 | DrodoEmpire | Ghel: Well I mean no club or sword would ever weigh that much, even proportionately speaking (at least probably) but I guess? |
| 20:13.18 | Technobliterator | I think users specialising in areas is still fine |
| 20:13.21 | Xho | Primarily because the Orichalcum Elves had no idea there were colossal dragon men waiting for them |
| 20:13.28 | Technobliterator | but we shouold still put everything up to committee regardless |
| 20:13.55 | DrodoEmpire | Swords are never more than a few pounds after all |
| 20:13.59 | DrodoEmpire | even larger examples |
| 20:14.55 | Hachiman | Not even greatswords?] |
| 20:15.16 | DrodoEmpire | What like Zweihanders? |
| 20:15.17 | Ghel | So, in conclusion, wielding an Elf as a weapon is not practical. |
| 20:15.28 | Xho | I'd imagine the Orichalcum Elves could have conquered the Athsulisstai granted the Orichalcum Elves 1) knew about them at first 2) attempted to retry their invasion |
| 20:15.32 | DrodoEmpire | No, even they were no more than like eight pounds |
| 20:15.50 | DrodoEmpire | Even though they were potentially as tall as the user |
| 20:15.53 | OluapPlayer | You can't use an elf as a sword silly, they're not sharpened |
| 20:15.56 | OluapPlayer | As a club could do though |
| 20:16.03 | Hachiman | Shiarchon are edgy though |
| 20:16.13 | DrodoEmpire | A *very* unwieldy club yeah |
| 20:16.20 | OluapPlayer | Shiarchon = morningstar |
| 20:16.24 | Xho | Although the prospect of how outnumbered and outmatched they were the first time they met, the Orichalcum Elves were effectively frightened of them afterwards |
| 20:16.26 | DrodoEmpire | More like a sack of potatoes really |
| 20:16.34 | Xho | Hachiman: dem spikes tho |
| 20:16.39 | Charles_Murray | Ghel : I personally feel that we have gotten a bit diluted in that users are crossing over into the specialization of other users and making determinations there, which has, at least for me, caused me to take less interest in the fiction. |
| 20:16.43 | Hachiman | Plus |
| 20:16.48 | Hachiman | All elves are knife-ears |
| 20:16.52 | Charles_Murray | Not sure how it is for other people |
| 20:16.57 | Xho | Shiarchon don't have ears tho |
| 20:17.10 | Xho | Or skin for that matter |
| 20:17.31 | DrodoEmpire | Charles: I'd agree, at least to an extent |
| 20:17.49 | Ghel | Charles_Murray: I think the basic details of the setting - where is it, how large is it, does it include Earth - are something for everyone to agree on. |
| 20:17.58 | Xho | I think the Kelodhrosi Commonwealth will become more prevalent post-Eschaton so we'll be seeing Nalganex |
| 20:18.35 | Charles_Murray | Of course |
| 20:18.42 | Ghel | "What extent do genetic engineering etc. exist"... is perhaps that should be mainly discussed by the specialists. |
| 20:19.14 | Xho | I need a quote for Nalganex though no character present has ever met him nor have actually gone that far west |
| 20:19.17 | Xho | Except possibly Pelagrios |
| 20:19.30 | Wormy__ | Well, I did manage to win back the plausibility of cyborgs and gen-mods by describing this to Random |
| 20:19.32 | OluapPlayer | Pelagrios - GIANT RED TURKEY |
| 20:19.45 | Xho | Nalganex - close i guess |
| 20:19.52 | Charles_Murray | That's more what I'm referring to, yes. I've also seen discussions of technology border into the realms of politics and history, which affects me more directly |
| 20:20.21 | Wormy__ | Yeah |
| 20:20.37 | Charles_Murray | Though I'm not saying that's a bad thing; it's great that you guys are taking the lead in the fiction. It just means that I end up having less to contribute |
| 20:20.46 | Hachiman | Of course, the matter of cyborgs and gene-mods and whatnot also affects Imp since he has involvement with making Spore stuff as far as I know |
| 20:22.13 | Wormy__ | Well I think we should have them available, because if we go with one empire, one species, then only one person is going to be able to make the main species. And that excludes so many others from helping out. |
| 20:22.28 | Wormy__ | That's not a "Super Collaboration" by any definition |
| 20:23.01 | Technobliterator | We could always only allow users to do one or two things in the super collab |
| 20:23.11 | Technobliterator | so it doesn't end up dominated by two or three people |
| 20:23.17 | Charles_Murray | Hm |
| 20:23.31 | Charles_Murray | There might be less restrictive ways to implement that |
| 20:23.37 | Wormy__ | I'm a bit concerned too actually that the people who take the initiative first will inevitably limit what other users can do. As Charles has pointed out. |
| 20:24.31 | Ghel | We're getting right up to the point where politics and history are discussed. I've come up with ideas but I'd certainly like you to be involved. |
| 20:24.33 | Charles_Murray | For example, we could go back to the structure I suggested originally, and have elements of the fiction which are privately owned, and a common fiction within which these privately owned components interact |
| 20:24.34 | Wormy__ | Maybe all discussions and proposals now on should go on the Super Collab page. For all to see? |
| 20:24.47 | Technobliterator | Perhaps, but like |
| 20:25.08 | Technobliterator | I just don't like users feeling left out |
| 20:25.13 | Technobliterator | Because that's clearly what's been happening so far |
| 20:25.46 | Hachiman | its all randums fault |
| 20:25.48 | Hachiman | kik him pls |
| 20:25.55 | Charles_Murray | Shup |
| 20:25.55 | Hachiman | Even though I have no involvement hur |
| 20:25.56 | Xho | pl0x |
| 20:26.37 | Technobliterator | Well, I must ask, would you have been involved even if you didn't feel left out? |
| 20:26.39 | Charles_Murray | I personally love the idea of giving each user a planet, a component of a larger federation |
| 20:26.49 | Xho | giant planet of death yey |
| 20:27.09 | *** join/#sporewiki Wormy_ (02184654@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.24.70.84) |
| 20:27.14 | Wormy_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:27.21 | Charles_Murray | Wormy_ Repost: I personally love the idea of giving each user a planet, a component of a larger federation |
| 20:27.28 | OluapPlayer | Hachiman: show ur trap forever pls |
| 20:27.32 | OluapPlayer | shut even |
| 20:27.45 | OluapPlayer | You're yet to do what I asked you |
| 20:27.53 | Hachiman | Nghngh |
| 20:27.55 | Wormy_ | So should we go for a multispecies government in a larger region of space? |
| 20:27.58 | Hachiman | I'm still thinking of stuff |
| 20:28.33 | Technobliterator | I definitely think that's for the best. I think, expand it to around 50 light years or so, and allow for different species, each of which can be submitted be users. |
| 20:28.38 | Hachiman | Technobliterator: Honestly no because I knew a situation like this was bound to arise at one point or another and I wanted to avoid becoming caught up in it to the point it affected me in a personal way |
| 20:28.40 | Ghel | Currently I don't see any reason to think we shouldn't still start small. |
| 20:28.58 | Xho | http://spore.wikia.com/wiki/Captain:Nalganex Eh well I'll keep that for now |
| 20:29.00 | Ghel | If another species is submitted and accepted, but needs more space, then we expand the space. |
| 20:29.10 | Technobliterator | Hachiman, but in a hypothetical scenario that this never happened, would you have? |
| 20:29.12 | Charles_Murray | I think the limitation should be to restrict everyone to one planet, and to adhere to other rules of the fiction |
| 20:29.31 | Wormy_ | Ghel: It might be better for us science coordinators to not lay down definite constraints, but work around explaining what exists at the necessity for the project. We may need a larger sector space for creativity's sake, and then work to explain how that is. |
| 20:29.32 | Hachiman | Possibly, if I had confidence and assurance it was going to work |
| 20:29.33 | Charles_Murray | Wormy : I would say a region of space within which it is reasonable to have multiple inhabited/habitable planets, and have the users themselves decide the society, biology, species, etc, that inhabits those planets |
| 20:29.56 | OluapPlayer | You got a lot to do already |
| 20:29.59 | Technobliterator | Alright |
| 20:30.05 | Wormy_ | To be reasonable, 12.5 light years is waaaayyy too small in my book |
| 20:30.17 | Charles_Murray | But the scale is limited in that, ultimately, the individual actors are planets |
| 20:30.21 | Charles_Murray | Rather than species |
| 20:30.25 | Wormy_ | Maybe 250 light years |
| 20:30.28 | Technobliterator | so yeah, I think it's fair to limit the involvement of specific users |
| 20:30.37 | Xho | How many stars around Sol actually exist within 12.5 light years |
| 20:30.48 | Wormy_ | 33 according to one site. |
| 20:30.54 | Xho | And how many of those have planets |
| 20:30.58 | Wormy_ | Most of them would be brown and red dwarfs |
| 20:31.05 | Wormy_ | Probably all of them |
| 20:31.10 | Charles_Murray | Alright, I trust you guys to figure that out |
| 20:31.15 | Technobliterator | I mean, if people are really worried about having too many planets in too many star systems |
| 20:31.15 | Xho | okay well withdraw my statement |
| 20:31.26 | Technobliterator | then we can easily just like |
| 20:31.26 | OluapPlayer | Nnngh |
| 20:31.30 | Technobliterator | have many of them not be inhabited? |
| 20:31.33 | OluapPlayer | One hour and a half until Dark Souls 3 |
| 20:31.45 | Ghel | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nearest_stars_and_brown_dwarfs |
| 20:31.46 | OluapPlayer | Let it serve as a warning that I'll be unavailable for the coming days |
| 20:31.50 | OluapPlayer | cause new dork souls |
| 20:31.55 | Ghel | In addition to the Solar System, there are another 54 stellar systems currently known lying within this distance. These systems contain a total of 56 hydrogen-fusing stars (of which 46 are red dwarfs) |
| 20:31.57 | Xho | Well at least it's not No Man's Sky with it's good ol 18,446,744,073,709,551,616 planets |
| 20:32.10 | Wormy_ | Those 33 systems may be inhabited, but I find it hard to believe any of them evolved more humanoids |
| 20:32.20 | Ghel | Therefore 10 potentially habitable systems if we're excluding red dwarfs. |
| 20:32.23 | Ghel | That's up to 16.3 ly. |
| 20:32.49 | Xho | The chance of a planet evolving humanoids is more than likely infinitesimally small |
| 20:33.08 | Xho | Within 12.5 light years that is |
| 20:33.48 | Xho | Heck can life even be supported on planets with red/brown dwarf stars |
| 20:34.09 | Xho | That's a dumb question of course it can |
| 20:34.14 | Xho | I'm talking to myself now |
| 20:34.19 | Ghel | Brown dwarfs? There's so little energy it would only be life to a biologist. |
| 20:34.38 | Wormy_ | That's what I mean, I'm doubtful such a small area is likely to spawn two sapient species |
| 20:34.41 | Ghel | Red dwarfs? It's possible, but there are other problems in the way. |
| 20:35.08 | Ghel | My original suggestion for a scale was 5000 ly, so moving from 12.5 up to 250 is still fairly small in comparison. |
| 20:35.29 | Wormy_ | True |
| 20:35.51 | Ghel | Although when talking about the oldest and most influential colonies, 10 systems should be plenty for a start. When we want aliens then we make it bigger. |
| 20:36.56 | Charles_Murray | Wait, so we're not going with the one-planet idea? |
| 20:36.57 | Technobliterator | R&C remake has great reviews |
| 20:37.00 | Technobliterator | so hyyyyyped |
| 20:37.21 | Wormy_ | "When we want aliens" concerns me that not enough people who want to create aliens will be able to have any significant role for the start. That would alienate most of the contributors. |
| 20:37.40 | Ghel | Charles_Murray: I don't see how what I said doesn't go with the one-planet idea. |
| 20:37.51 | OfficerJackal | The one planet idea is terrible. Like really, a civilization advanced enough to go into space with SHIPS (which is no small feat) is going to have more then one planet inhabited. |
| 20:38.08 | Charles_Murray | Right, though we're not looking at it the right way >.< |
| 20:38.20 | Wormy_ | The one planet idea is meant to use that premise as a starting point |
| 20:38.49 | Ghel | Yes, we do mean that there is more than one inhabited planet. But at least during early colonisation, with no FTL, interstellar empires were so impractical that each planet or system (usually closer to individual planets) developed their own independent governments. |
| 20:39.15 | Charles_Murray | There we go |
| 20:39.20 | Wormy_ | right |
| 20:39.22 | Charles_Murray | Though I would add, quickly |
| 20:39.47 | Charles_Murray | That local governments are a fact no matter where you go, even in supposedly centralized states |
| 20:39.53 | Wormy_ | If you ask me, its already getting hard to keep track of everything in this project. |
| 20:39.57 | Charles_Murray | There is no need to restrict FTL |
| 20:40.13 | Charles_Murray | Due to the fact that local governance is necessary to maintain control over a large space |
| 20:40.43 | Ghel | Wormy_: What we have is a lot of discussion. If you try to remember all of it then yes, it will seem like it's hard to keep track. |
| 20:41.30 | Ghel | What we mainly have is a plan to focus on individual things - species, planets - in one region of space. |
| 20:43.25 | Ghel | We appear to be starting with one species (and probably its offshoots) within 15ly of its homeworld. That is likely to change very quickly once we get started. |
| 20:44.28 | Charles_Murray | Though I personally wouldn't restrict the species, or even use those as the starting point. I would have a roster of species (each created by users, with the option to create more), with the user who created that species controlling the homeworld |
| 20:44.49 | Charles_Murray | While users who then pick that species control colonies or offshoots |
| 20:45.20 | Charles_Murray | All of this would be under the umbrella of a large space federation of sorts |
| 20:45.56 | Charles_Murray | i.e., each planet would be a member state |
| 20:46.57 | Wormy_ | If we are worried about contribution, as I suggested earlier, we could vote a main species from a creation contest, and use the other creations as the fiction expands |
| 20:46.58 | Ghel | Two possible problems with that. Firstly, I'm not sure how much that will divert from the theme of specialisations. I'm not saying a large portion of what you're suggesting won't be collaborative in that manner, but is it the right amount? |
| 20:47.42 | Charles_Murray | Ghel : Good point, though the collaboration comes in in the creation of the space federation |
| 20:47.56 | Charles_Murray | And the setting itself, the technology available, etc |
| 20:47.59 | Ghel | Indeed; that's where I recognise much of it will be. |
| 20:48.15 | Charles_Murray | But I personally caution against starting with the space federation |
| 20:48.34 | Ghel | Secondly, having lots of species become spacefaring in the same region of space within a geologically short span of time. There's both realism, and potentially how much detail is going to be put into them. |
| 20:48.58 | Ghel | These species will all have their own histories, myriad cultures, etc. Will they all be fleshed out enough? Maybe. |
| 20:50.08 | Charles_Murray | As for the second point, that's also where specialization comes in. My job will be to create a political and economic structure for the space federation that makes sense with the planets we have. Your guys' job will be to make their number and distribution make sense, as well as the level of communication that exists between them |
| 20:50.14 | Ghel | The general idea, that people will come up with their own ideas for individual planets and what goes on there, I do agree is fine. |
| 20:51.10 | Charles_Murray | As for the level of detail that will be put into the species, I think this is where it might be best to leave it up to the users. As Hachiman pointed out, I'm not sure we'll agree on cybernetics or the level of biological modification, or on the character of a given species |
| 20:51.32 | Charles_Murray | It's the kind of thing that comes down to taste, and what a user focuses on will be reflected in the character of his species |
| 20:52.06 | Charles_Murray | The structure we have, however, encourages users to pick from an existing roster of species |
| 20:52.12 | Charles_Murray | Meaning, one that already has a history |
| 20:52.17 | Charles_Murray | And build on top of that |
| 20:52.44 | Charles_Murray | Which encourages a greater level of collaboration than in the main universe, but isn't so wholly alien and uncomfortable as to put people off |
| 20:53.47 | Ghel | If part of the idea of starting in the way that we are starting is to practice this form of collaboration on a small scale and make sure we can do it, then I'm sure that starting with one species is the best way to start. |
| 20:54.19 | Ghel | And if we spent as much time working on that as we've done talking about the direction of the project, we'd be ready for other species in no time. |
| 20:55.40 | Charles_Murray | Right, but if we start with a single species, we get bogged down in a space where we're less likely to agree |
| 20:56.05 | Charles_Murray | i.e., I personally don't want to have anything to do with cyborgs or genetic modifications, or even aliens for that matter |
| 20:56.11 | Charles_Murray | As a matter of taste |
| 20:56.21 | Charles_Murray | But I don't want to impose that on other people |
| 20:56.43 | Charles_Murray | While others here find my penchant for regular humans boring |
| 20:56.50 | Wormy_ | There's also the issue of significant contribution |
| 20:57.02 | Technobliterator | Aliens? You realise this is a Spore wiki, right? |
| 20:57.35 | Charles_Murray | And the spirit of Spore is that you can make anything you want, including humans ^.^ |
| 20:58.01 | Technobliterator | and end up meeting a ton of aliens in the space stage regardless |
| 20:58.09 | Charles_Murray | Oh, that's not what I meant |
| 20:58.10 | Charles_Murray | Sorry |
| 20:58.26 | Ghel | I don't forsee cyborgs and genetic modifications being a notable part of the general history of a single species. Those things will arise on individual colonies later on. |
| 20:59.00 | Ghel | As for aliens... well, the issue of whether we include humans and/or Earth is still open on the page. |
| 20:59.05 | Charles_Murray | Technobliterator : I meant that I personally don't write aliens that much into my fiction, but I interact with them just ine) |
| 20:59.07 | *** join/#sporewiki Wormy__ (02184654@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.24.70.84) |
| 20:59.35 | Technobliterator | that's fine |
| 20:59.51 | Ghel | The few people that have discussed it with me on IRC so far seem to be more in support of Earth not playing a part at least. |
| 21:00.17 | Charles_Murray | I personally think Earth shouldn't play a part either, but humans should be an option as a race |
| 21:00.42 | Wormy__ | But we could start with a human-like physiology and culture, its just easier to model imo |
| 21:01.13 | Technobliterator | There's no reason we can't have humans without Earth, but I favour no humans |
| 21:01.23 | Technobliterator | especially not Earth |
| 21:01.37 | Technobliterator | or people will be arguing over the fine details of the timeline of Earth leading to now |
| 21:01.58 | Charles_Murray | Again, I think that if this conversation demonstrates anything, it's that using species as a starting point is a bad idea |
| 21:02.19 | Wormy__ | For me, humans on a different planet as some coincidence is just "ewww" |
| 21:02.24 | Technobliterator | or that limiting to a single species is a bad idea |
| 21:02.27 | Charles_Murray | Me too |
| 21:02.34 | Technobliterator | well, Star Wars did it |
| 21:02.46 | Wormy__ | And it still makes me feel "ewww" |
| 21:02.57 | Technobliterator | you don't have to like that it did it |
| 21:02.58 | Technobliterator | but it did |
| 21:03.40 | Charles_Murray | (Well, my interpretation of Star Wars is that it's a fictional galaxy in which humans developed; they are native to that galaxy and have no connection to real-world humans. It's a story about humans in a galaxy of humans, and that's the point, but how they got there isn't.) |
| 21:03.44 | Technobliterator | either way, that's much better than arguing over how President Trump somehow got us to the space stage, or how North Korea decided to co-operate with the rest of the world |
| 21:04.37 | Wormy__ | (My interpretation is that Coruscant isn't their home, they are humans who got lost in time, or were transplanted there long ago but not super long ago) |
| 21:04.49 | Ghel | From a certain point of view, most works of fiction are alternate universes in which a species that happens to resemble humans happens to exist on a planet that happens to resemble Earth except for some minor differences. :P |
| 21:04.57 | Charles_Murray | ^ |
| 21:04.57 | Xho | (brackets) |
| 21:05.20 | Wormy__ | ewww |
| 21:05.40 | Technobliterator | alright, I vote that President Trump decided he had a massive ego |
| 21:05.45 | Technobliterator | so he poured more money into NASA |
| 21:05.52 | Technobliterator | in order for them to make a rocket with the Trump sign on it |
| 21:05.55 | Technobliterator | and then landed on Mars |
| 21:06.01 | Charles_Murray | olol |
| 21:06.08 | Technobliterator | and human space exploration skyrocketed from there |
| 21:06.16 | Wormy__ | And built a wall to keep everyone out |
| 21:06.22 | Charles_Murray | Or we can go with that cartoon of the primaries |
| 21:06.29 | Charles_Murray | Where Obama sends the candidates to Mars |
| 21:06.29 | Wormy__ | And world breathes a sigh of relief |
| 21:06.38 | Technobliterator | lmao |
| 21:06.40 | Charles_Murray | And they're on a spaceship, just arguing |
| 21:06.47 | Charles_Murray | While Earth is being destroyed |
| 21:06.58 | Charles_Murray | But anyway |
| 21:07.49 | Charles_Murray | I really think we should table the species issue as something we won't agree on, and build a structure which will cherish that difference in opinion and foster diversity within reasonable boundaries |
| 21:08.19 | Technobliterator | I think we should just let users create species, and judge those individual species by committee |
| 21:08.27 | Ghel | Whatever happens, unless we take the unlikely case that all of the species in a region of space happen to develop space travel within the space of a few centuries, there will be one species, which we are almost certainly going to have as psychologically indistinguishable from humans, that got there clearly first. |
| 21:08.48 | *** join/#sporewiki TekExams (uid149600@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fbrncvapqxekxemh) |
| 21:08.50 | Technobliterator | I say most things should be dictated by committee, but users cannot contribute to more than two areas |
| 21:08.51 | Ghel | Could we work on it together, ensure that our fiction has a good foundation, and then decide whether or not these are humans? |
| 21:09.02 | Technobliterator | I don't see why not |
| 21:09.12 | Charles_Murray | I would go with the former case |
| 21:09.19 | Charles_Murray | But there must be a way to make it work |
| 21:10.08 | Charles_Murray | Just like I'm not going to impose hard politics on everyone in the space federation, there's got to be a little give on the science |
| 21:10.19 | Charles_Murray | It needs to be flexible for the project to move forward |
| 21:10.54 | Ghel | If there were no give on the science we'd already be saying "no FTL ever". :P |
| 21:11.15 | Wormy__ | We need to go forward somehow. |
| 21:11.42 | Technobliterator | we have to have FTL |
| 21:11.45 | Ghel | I generally don't want to be opposed to something unless it really violates my suspension of disbelief. |
| 21:11.45 | Xho | Really I'm beginning to wonder why this idea is being discussed |
| 21:11.51 | Xho | And that's not to mock it |
| 21:12.00 | Xho | I'm genuinely questioning why |
| 21:12.14 | Charles_Murray | Because we want to find a way to make it work. xD It's that simple |
| 21:12.24 | Wormy__ | To add to Techno's suggestion of a committee, I believe that solves the issue of significant contribution. All people can create, one of them gets voted. And the rest can be used for other factions/members later on. |
| 21:12.30 | Technobliterator | Uh, because it wouldn't be a super collab if no one discussed anything? ?__? |
| 21:12.49 | Xho | No I'm wondering why there's super collab in the first place |
| 21:13.02 | Ghel | Why is there a fiction universe in the first place? |
| 21:13.05 | Wormy__ | Because we are masochists of organisation and planning. |
| 21:13.21 | Charles_Murray | Wormy__ The issue with that is that it doesn't foster consensus |
| 21:13.26 | Wormy__ | Why do I log in here for most of my free time? |
| 21:13.27 | Xho | Ghel: Because the SSA existed and I wanted to destroy it |
| 21:13.28 | Charles_Murray | It lifts one opinion over the others |
| 21:13.42 | Charles_Murray | Probably by minority rule |
| 21:13.49 | Xho | Hegelian dialectics created this place kek |
| 21:14.27 | Charles_Murray | Which means that if one opinion or style rules over the others, those who were in favor of other ideas are going to be less invested in the fiction |
| 21:14.33 | Wormy__ | Even a vote that explains your choice and invokes community discussion about it? |
| 21:14.40 | Charles_Murray | Yes |
| 21:15.02 | Technobliterator | It basically just came from the idea of "what if we had users developing different parts of the same fiction". Where it goes from here could be any number of places. It could lead to people working on one anothers' fictions, it could lead to incorporating it into the main univeerse (hopefully!), or it could just be scrapped. |
| 21:15.15 | Technobliterator | Either way, I still believe it's worth trying. |
| 21:15.27 | Wormy__ | You could have feedback between the community and the creator |
| 21:16.36 | Charles_Murray | Right, that part is most definitely good. But the final decisionmaking system is flawed; It selects for disenfranchisement rather than consensus |
| 21:16.39 | Technobliterator | and besides |
| 21:16.43 | Technobliterator | regardlesso f what happens |
| 21:16.53 | Charles_Murray | This is one of the many problems with first-past-the-post voting systems |
| 21:16.53 | Technobliterator | I'm going to continue the Reckoning and Borealis War remake |
| 21:16.54 | Technobliterator | \o/ |
| 21:17.31 | Technobliterator | Charles_Murray, do you mean we should be working more towards compromise than towards just voting in a blanket idea? If so, I agree |
| 21:18.04 | Ghel | This reminds me of Wikipedia's policy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Polling_is_not_a_substitute_for_discussion |
| 21:18.10 | Charles_Murray | Yes, though getting there is a tricky part |
| 21:18.24 | Technobliterator | I mean, if it genuinely |
| 21:18.26 | Wormy__ | Btw, when I meant voting, I didn't mean polls |
| 21:18.27 | Technobliterator | truly genuinely |
| 21:18.44 | Technobliterator | gets to the point where people absolutely cannot compromise and nothing works at all |
| 21:18.48 | Technobliterator | then we can scrap the idea |
| 21:18.55 | Technobliterator | or try the bits that did work on a smaller scale |
| 21:19.29 | Wormy__ | I meant the community adding their suggestions to possible creatures for the main species, and then a selection of users interpret them. And then *they* get feedback from the community again, and then some creations are finalised for a choice by the majority. |
| 21:20.04 | Wormy__ | That's actually how a lot of pitching works in the art world between a client and the creator |
| 21:20.21 | Charles_Murray | I'm a scholar of systems, and I suggested a framework which (1) gets people invested in the project by giving them creative freedom over the parts of the fiction we are likely to disagree upon, which is a safe place where they feel that their individuality and core engagement with the fiction isn't going to be outlawed, and |
| 21:21.30 | Charles_Murray | (2) creates a space built on top of the first through community consensus, now that everyone is invested and fulfilled, and (3) allows for interaction and collaboration in a larger context |
| 21:21.40 | Technobliterator | mhm |
| 21:22.55 | *** join/#sporewiki Wormy_ (02184654@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.24.70.84) |
| 21:23.07 | Wormy_ | "to build a structure which will cherish that difference in opinion and foster diversity within reasonable boundaries" |
| 21:23.18 | Charles_Murray | Understanding politics isn't just about systems and laws, it's also about psychology. Why do people participate in systems? How do you get them to trust them? What are they looking to get out of it, and how do you create incentives to get them to act in a certain way of their own free will? |
| 21:23.21 | Wormy_ | I do actually think this is a really good route |
| 21:23.33 | Charles_Murray | ty |
| 21:23.40 | Charles_Murray | I also said this |
| 21:23.40 | Charles_Murray | [17:20] <Charles_Murray> I'm a scholar of systems, and I suggested a framework which (1) gets people invested in the project by giving them creative freedom over the parts of the fiction we are likely to disagree upon, which is a safe place where they feel that their individuality and core engagement with the fiction isn't going to be outlawed, and |
| 21:23.45 | Charles_Murray | [17:21] <Charles_Murray> (2) creates a space built on top of the first through community consensus, now that everyone is invested and fulfilled, and (3) allows for interaction and collaboration in a larger context |
| 21:24.28 | Wormy_ | The whole point of this project is to maximise collaboration between contributors |
| 21:24.37 | Charles_Murray | ^ |
| 21:24.48 | Wormy_ | I think the way we are currently proposing things isn't. |
| 21:25.12 | Wormy_ | That's why I suggested a voting system, but obviously without your insights I wouldn't see the flaws |
| 21:27.02 | Wormy_ | I a concerned of course, that a small region of space makes more than one species unlikely. I had hoped that cyborg/gen-mod species might help with that, but we haven't got full support for such a thing |
| 21:27.22 | Charles_Murray | Would expanding the region of space help, then? |
| 21:27.58 | Wormy_ | That alternative that makes us both happy is to simply enlarge the space we are using. |
| 21:28.02 | Wormy_ | Yes |
| 21:28.03 | Technobliterator | yes |
| 21:28.08 | Charles_Murray | Do it |
| 21:28.13 | Wormy_ | Yeah I've changed my mind |
| 21:28.35 | Charles_Murray | When I suggested a small scope, I wasn't necessarily referring to physical space; I was more thinking of the size of the assets users would be manipulating |
| 21:28.50 | Charles_Murray | To me, the size of the space involved is irrelevant |
| 21:28.58 | Charles_Murray | (And thus up to you guys to decide) |
| 21:29.01 | Wormy_ | Which we can still limit because we are dealing with such large distances |
| 21:30.01 | Ghel | I would hope that nobody would actually oppose the idea that some members of a given species would have modifications, because that sounds an awful lot to me like trying to control that particular aspect of that species. |
| 21:30.05 | Wormy_ | I may be missing something, but how do we keep track of things? Random convinced me before that a small space is best, because of his negative experience in dealing with lots of creators making content with no direction. |
| 21:30.29 | Wormy_ | How do we keep a direction? |
| 21:30.30 | Charles_Murray | Ghel : I wouldn't, though if I were to use that species, I personally wouldn't modify them |
| 21:31.14 | Charles_Murray | Wormy_ That's where the space federation comes in |
| 21:31.53 | Charles_Murray | Which will be complete with maps, a government, story elements, all decided by common consensus |
| 21:32.06 | Ghel | Well, modified species could still provide much of the variety. Although to be clear, I have previously provided statements of support for larger spaces and the presence of aliens regardless. |
| 21:32.26 | Charles_Murray | Because while each user controls a planet, those planets aren't wholly independent. They are autonomous, yes, but also beholden to the whole |
| 21:32.42 | Charles_Murray | And thus, the direction of the fiction can be maintained by the group |
| 21:33.06 | *** join/#sporewiki Wormy__ (02184654@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.24.70.84) |
| 21:33.14 | Wormy__ | Yippee, looks like I'll be able to create an idea I had for a faction that controlled two or three systems, and did have some cybernetic characteristics. I felt like that was a long way off, before. |
| 21:33.34 | Wormy__ | If we do this |
| 21:34.22 | Charles_Murray | Ghel : To be clear, I don't oppose gene mods or cybermods for the setting. I was simply pointing out that I don't like using them in my fiction, and if it came down to making one species for everyone, I would be forced to oppose those kinds of things |
| 21:34.26 | Charles_Murray | Wormy__ :D |
| 21:34.59 | Ghel | We certainly aren't going to force people to use genemods or cyborgs. I would fully expect entire systems full of unmodified individuals. |
| 21:35.19 | Charles_Murray | See? The framework is flexible and allows users with different tastes to find fulfillment |
| 21:35.45 | Wormy__ | For all intensive purposes, this was closer to the original idea me and Ghel had. This Space Federation might have only been possible given the advent of FTL travel, before that, this large volume of space would have only been accessible to relativistic travellers. |
| 21:36.43 | Wormy__ | If this fiction starts with the advent of FTl travel, we can still use limitations necessary for keeping a single direction |
| 21:36.59 | Charles_Murray | Sure |
| 21:37.07 | Charles_Murray | And that's where our different specializations come in |
| 21:38.03 | Imperios | Were busy |
| 21:38.07 | Imperios | What did you guys decide on so far? |
| 21:38.58 | Wormy__ | There's no reason really why colonists would stop at 15 light years away. They could travel 100 light years, 1000 if they wanted. Once the colonists has accelerated to their destinations, they have no reason to feel restricted by the laws of their empire. |
| 21:39.14 | Ghel | I don't see any actual disagreement behind the general idea of the framework. The community decides on the overall facts of the setting, with details provided by specialists. |
| 21:39.52 | Ghel | And individual planets are down to users to work on as they see fit. |
| 21:40.51 | Ghel | Wormy__: Absolutely. Although given a limited speed of their ships, they may not have reached the furthest destinations yet. |
| 21:41.04 | Wormy__ | indeed |
| 21:42.15 | Ghel | Likely points of disagreement are how many independently-evolved species we have, how much space our setting contains, and the role of humans. |
| 21:43.18 | Wormy__ | I don't mind humans being in the region of space. In fact that was one of my oppositions to humans being the "primary species" |
| 21:43.33 | Imperios | So guys |
| 21:43.35 | Wormy__ | from a parallel world |
| 21:43.35 | Imperios | What did you agree on |
| 21:43.51 | Charles_Murray | All of what Ghel just said |
| 21:43.59 | Wormy__ | Well I've changed my mind that we may need to exted the volume of space we are going to use |
| 21:43.59 | Ghel | Imperios: Primarily, we've agreed on our decision-making processes. |
| 21:44.06 | Imperios | And that would be |
| 21:44.21 | Ghel | All of what I just said. |
| 21:44.32 | Charles_Murray | I recommended that we put the species question and the role of humans down to the individual user. The space question, I think, should be figured out by Wormy and Ghel |
| 21:44.42 | Charles_Murray | It's a technical question which should be given a technical answer |
| 21:45.08 | Imperios | That would necessitate a ton of species |
| 21:45.15 | Imperios | One for every user at the very least |
| 21:45.37 | Ghel | No; a user can decide to use another user's species. |
| 21:45.41 | Charles_Murray | Not necessarily, given that I can think of ways we can build this such that sharing species is incentivized, but not forced |
| 21:46.09 | Charles_Murray | Because not everyone is going to want to go through the work of creating one in detail |
| 21:46.16 | Charles_Murray | *raises hand* |
| 21:46.29 | Charles_Murray | But some people are really going to want to |
| 21:46.42 | Charles_Murray | So empowering people to do both in the same system is the way to go, imo |
| 21:46.55 | Charles_Murray | While at the same time encouraging collaboration |
| 21:48.24 | Charles_Murray | test |
| 21:48.32 | Ghel | The earlier idea I mentioned, which I think is part of what led to us discussing and clarifying the decision-making system in order to see whether it's practical: |
| 21:48.33 | Wormy__ | On a side note I just noticed none of the fans are working on my computer >_< |
| 21:48.44 | Ghel | [22:08] <@Ghel> Whatever happens, unless we take the unlikely case that all of the species in a region of space happen to develop space travel within the space of a few centuries, there will be one species, which we are almost certainly going to have as psychologically indistinguishable from humans, that got there clearly first. |
| 21:48.48 | Ghel | [22:08] <@Ghel> Could we work on it together, ensure that our fiction has a good foundation, and then decide whether or not these are humans? |
| 21:48.54 | *** join/#sporewiki ImpyDroid (~Anders@95.140.92.144) |
| 21:48.59 | Ghel | Do we think this can work, and if not, what are the concerns? |
| 21:49.27 | ImpyDroid | Sorry guys |
| 21:49.30 | ImpyDroid | Vanished again |
| 21:49.36 | ImpyDroid | You were saying? |
| 21:49.50 | Ghel | I'll copy it all to you in private chat. |
| 21:49.52 | Charles_Murray | I do not think it can work o.o You'll remember that instead I went with the route of making "the unlikely case that all of the species in a region of space happen to develop space travel within the space of a few centuries" plausible |
| 21:50.18 | Wormy__ | Problem is, we can't magically make it feel plausible to us. |
| 21:50.28 | Charles_Murray | Didn't we come up with an answer? |
| 21:50.43 | Charles_Murray | To make the area of space in question much, much larger? |
| 21:50.48 | ImpyDroid | So in the end, the result will be like three or four species |
| 21:50.58 | Charles_Murray | ^ |
| 21:51.16 | Wormy__ | I'm leaning towards making the space larger myself. |
| 21:51.40 | ImpyDroid | So as to prevent too much chaos, should we only reserve species making to certain individuals and until much later agree that one can only make one species each? |
| 21:51.45 | Ghel | That's not really going to solve the issue. Make the space larger and you make more opportunities for a species to arise earlier. |
| 21:51.54 | ImpyDroid | Could be |
| 21:52.01 | ImpyDroid | That would necessitate some FTL |
| 21:52.09 | Wormy__ | But its obvious to me that we can't keep the space small without handwavy explanations --- and have the creative opportunityies for other collaborators |
| 21:52.11 | Charles_Murray | Ghel : Though your model neglects trade |
| 21:52.19 | Charles_Murray | Trade is an equalizer when it comes to technology |
| 21:52.28 | Ghel | That's also not an explanation as to why the idea of "working on one species and deicidng whether they're human later" doesn't work; just possibly unnecessary. |
| 21:52.47 | Charles_Murray | Civilizations don't evolve in a bubble, and never in a straight line or progression |
| 21:52.52 | Ghel | Okay, so we have one species that develops space travel first and then trades it with other species. |
| 21:53.01 | Charles_Murray | More complex than that, but yes |
| 21:53.02 | ImpyDroid | Or colonises them |
| 21:53.07 | ImpyDroid | IMPERRRRIAL EAAAAARTH |
| 21:53.11 | ImpyDroid | GALAXY MASTEEEERS |
| 21:53.14 | Ghel | That makes them less special, but it still gives us somewhere to start, and that's my point. |
| 21:53.24 | Charles_Murray | There's going to be tons of cross-polination, and as Impy just pointed out, some manner of imperialism could be involved |
| 21:53.47 | Wormy__ | That's right, the greater the volume of space, the greater chance a civilisation has already arisen and mastered colonisation and technology |
| 21:54.08 | Wormy__ | Ah hah |
| 21:54.33 | Wormy__ | We hit the nail on the head and do just that as our Space Federation |
| 21:54.54 | Charles_Murray | Right, though again, this model thinks of these civilizations as existing in a vacuum and having no contact with each other, and aren't liable to internal convulsions themselves |
| 21:54.54 | ImpyDroid | Sooo |
| 21:55.03 | Charles_Murray | is flawed |
| 21:55.06 | ImpyDroid | If we make our space larger |
| 21:55.07 | Wormy__ | A (fortunetely) lawful or nurturing super civilisation that uplifts members after a certain point of development |
| 21:55.10 | Wormy__ | I actually suggested something like that ages past |
| 21:55.11 | ImpyDroid | Does that mean we need FTL? |
| 21:55.14 | ImpyDroid | OR |
| 21:55.17 | Charles_Murray | Guys |
| 21:55.17 | Ghel | I'm certainly not assuming that civilisations have no contact with each other. |
| 21:55.37 | ImpyDroid | We could have these several species living in a fairly small area and actually use this as a plot point |
| 21:55.43 | Charles_Murray | Please remember that this is my area of expertise. |
| 21:56.22 | ImpyDroid | As the amount of lifebearing planets and sentient races is much greater than it logically should be |
| 21:56.29 | Ghel | I know. We're so far not disagreeing with each other. |
| 21:56.39 | ImpyDroid | Suggesting alien intervention |
| 21:57.04 | Charles_Murray | I can tell you how such an advanced species could be constructed given the technological advantage you guys provided (your expertise), how it acts among less advanced civs, how cross-pollination happens, how trade happens, with the ultimate goal of ending up with a large union of civs over a large space |
| 21:57.15 | Charles_Murray | If we can agree on that framework |
| 21:57.42 | Ghel | I believe so. |
| 21:57.43 | Wormy__ | I think the advanced species could solve the Fermi paradox issues? |
| 21:58.08 | Charles_Murray | Right, though it wouldn't be as simple as "uplift everyone" or "conquer everyone" |
| 21:58.14 | ImpyDroid | Charles_Murray: Not very relevant to discussion but I have one argument for our planet not being Earth |
| 21:58.26 | Charles_Murray | I don't want it to be Earth |
| 21:58.38 | ImpyDroid | Then we are in agreement |
| 21:59.07 | ImpyDroid | If we make it our own thing, we could write down not just its interstellar history, but also its planetbound history |
| 21:59.17 | ImpyDroid | Drodo I imagine would enjoy it |
| 21:59.30 | ImpyDroid | As would I |
| 21:59.48 | ImpyDroid | Could even set a few stories in it, a sort of quasi-Fantasyverse except without magic |
| 21:59.54 | Ghel | So the suggestion is that we initially work on that first advanced species until the point where, in essence, its neighbouring species also have the necessary space travel technology. |
| 22:01.20 | Wormy__ | Ghel: How about they are an advanced version of your cosmic-dust lifeforms? |
| 22:01.49 | Ghel | That's fine if Charles is happy working on such a thing before he goes to work on humans. |
| 22:02.35 | Ghel | But to use his words, first we provide the technological advantage that this civilisation has, then Charles tells us how such an advanced species could be constructed, how it acts among less advanced civs, how cross-pollination happens, how trade happens, with the ultimate goal of ending up with a large union of civs over a large space... |
| 22:02.50 | *** join/#sporewiki The_Randomness (~chatzilla@2601:441:0:6:6102:71a6:7ff7:c000) |
| 22:02.50 | *** mode/#sporewiki [+o The_Randomness] by ChanServ |
| 22:02.53 | Wormy__ | It seems like a logical approach to me. They would have had more time to develop, spread through the universe, and regulate the planetary species that develop advanced enough to interact with them. |
| 22:02.58 | ImpyDroid | Ji |
| 22:02.59 | The_Randomness | Hello |
| 22:03.00 | ImpyDroid | Hi |
| 22:03.03 | Wormy__ | hi |
| 22:03.08 | Wormy__ | Wow you've got a lot to catch up on |
| 22:03.10 | Charles_Murray | I personally think that's something specific to Ghel, it might be best if this species is the product of agreement between all of us, incorporating elements we can all agree on, because it will serve as the basis for law, culture, etc, in other civs |
| 22:03.24 | Ghel | My point was, simply, if we can't agree on whether or not this species is human, we do the rest of the work beforehand and agree afterwards. |
| 22:03.29 | Charles_Murray | The model I'm currently thinking of is the British Commonwealth |
| 22:03.31 | Ghel | Charles_Murray: Yes, of course. |
| 22:03.34 | Ghel | The_Randomness: Hello. |
| 22:04.06 | The_Randomness | Alright, let me read this stuff real quick |
| 22:04.17 | Charles_Murray | So this space federation would essentially be the remnant of a large space empire (writ large), with tons of independent planets now operating within it, including the original capital world of the empire |
| 22:04.34 | Wormy__ | Seems fairly straightforward to me |
| 22:04.54 | Ghel | Yeah. |
| 22:05.09 | ImpyDroid | That would imply a lot of history before it |
| 22:05.32 | Charles_Murray | Mhm, giving us tons to work with. Would that be agreeable, or a problem? |
| 22:05.34 | ImpyDroid | So we are going for an already established world, SW-style, rather the bold exploration verse of State Trek? |
| 22:05.47 | ImpyDroid | I can work with both ideas |
| 22:05.54 | Ghel | Writing the early history would be the latter. |
| 22:06.09 | ImpyDroid | Actually what can I work on other than linguistics and creatures |
| 22:06.15 | Ghel | In later centuries, when aliens are involved to, it's more like the former. |
| 22:06.18 | Ghel | too* |
| 22:06.31 | The_Randomness | uh, yeah, I've clearly missed a lot here |
| 22:06.47 | Charles_Murray | (The "English" species could be alien, I have no issue with that) |
| 22:06.57 | Ghel | The_Randomness: We're currently discussing about working with the first species to develop space travel technology. |
| 22:07.00 | Charles_Murray | (Unless we want to make them human) |
| 22:07.09 | The_Randomness | ok |
| 22:07.35 | Ghel | Much of what we've discussed recently is just clarifying that we agree on how decisions are going to be made. |
| 22:08.17 | Charles_Murray | Should we stop and let Random comment on what he thinks of what we discussed? |
| 22:08.36 | Hachiman | Nah |
| 22:08.46 | The_Randomness | I need to know exactly what's happened in my absence before I can comment on anything |
| 22:11.16 | Charles_Murray | Well, er |
| 22:11.21 | Charles_Murray | How do we catch him up? |
| 22:11.29 | Charles_Murray | Not much has actually been decided |
| 22:11.33 | Vincent20100 | Holy hell guys... |
| 22:11.34 | Charles_Murray | But a lot has been discussed |
| 22:11.39 | Charles_Murray | Hm? |
| 22:11.40 | The_Randomness | I know, more what's been discussed in the past three hours |
| 22:11.45 | Vincent20100 | I just went on reddit for the first time in my life |
| 22:12.00 | Vincent20100 | Why?!? |
| 22:12.10 | Charles_Murray | Reddit is awesome |
| 22:12.12 | Vincent20100 | Why do these people do this?! |
| 22:12.13 | The_Randomness | Vincent20100: Welcome to the whiniest place on the Internet |
| 22:12.21 | Charles_Murray | Hey, I love Reddit |
| 22:12.27 | Ghel | What's been decided is little more than what Random's already seen since he's been on here, and what's on the super-collab page. |
| 22:12.39 | The_Randomness | So do I, but it's unbelievably whiny most of the time |
| 22:12.40 | Vincent20100 | https://www.reddit.com/r/panichistory |
| 22:12.54 | Vincent20100 | Almost fell on this page straight away |
| 22:13.27 | Vincent20100 | And it's full of stuff like that... |
| 22:13.46 | The_Randomness | lol |
| 22:14.21 | The_Randomness | Reminds me a little of https://www.reddit.com/r/amibeingdetained/ |
| 22:14.24 | ImpyDroid | The_Randomness: >whiniest |
| 22:14.24 | Wormy__ | Is Reddit really more whiney than Steam reviews and YouTube? |
| 22:14.33 | ImpyDroid | Do not forget Tumblr |
| 22:14.34 | Charles_Murray | YouTube is definitely worse |
| 22:14.49 | Charles_Murray | Reddit tends to be self-selectively intelligent, and really what you make of it |
| 22:14.52 | Wormy__ | I'd rather forget Tumblr exists, thanks. |
| 22:14.58 | Charles_Murray | Tons of great subreddits |
| 22:15.04 | Charles_Murray | Tons of bad ones too |
| 22:15.09 | The_Randomness | Yeah, I don't deny that there's good and bad subs |
| 22:15.17 | Hachiman | So, according to one of my friends who is an experienced EVE player and is currently up to date on in-game economics and politics, one of the biggest major player-ran factions, dubbed The Imperium, has lost 400 billion ISK over the course of I think a week or two |
| 22:15.21 | The_Randomness | It's just that the larger they get, the whinier they are |
| 22:15.27 | Wormy__ | That's the impression I get from browsing Reddit. |
| 22:15.40 | The_Randomness | r/leagueoflegends is probably one of the worst, followed by r/startrek |
| 22:15.51 | The_Randomness | That I glance at regularly |
| 22:15.54 | Wormy__ | nerds |
| 22:16.35 | Hachiman | I forget how much ISK is worth in real word currency, but I know that this is one of the largest and most expensive wars in the history of EVE's playerbase |
| 22:16.36 | ImpyDroid | Hachiman: >Imperium I blame Tzeentch |
| 22:16.45 | Wormy__ | I think I've managed to give Random the drop down. |
| 22:16.52 | Charles_Murray | But The_Randomness : We essentially ran into a roadblock regarding the issue of multiple species. On one side of the argument, we wanted users to be able to choose and customize their own species according to their tastes. On the other side, we were looking for ways to make that plausible within a workably small amount of space |
| 22:17.09 | Charles_Murray | And we came to a compromise |
| 22:17.12 | *** join/#sporewiki Monet (~Monet47@cpc90522-gill20-2-0-cust960.20-1.cable.virginm.net) |
| 22:17.16 | Wormy__ | Hi |
| 22:17.21 | Hachiman | Hey Mon |
| 22:17.24 | Vincent20100 | CHarles_Murray: Seen my last mesages btw? |
| 22:17.27 | Charles_Murray | [18:02] <@Ghel> But to use his words, first we provide the technological advantage that this civilisation has, then Charles tells us how such an advanced species could be constructed, how it acts among less advanced civs, how cross-pollination happens, how trade happens, with the ultimate goal of ending up with a large union of civs over a large space... |
| 22:17.28 | Hachiman | I was just talking about EVE |
| 22:17.49 | Hachiman | How much would you estimate the equivalent of 400 billion ISK to be in Pound Sterling/ |
| 22:17.50 | Hachiman | ? |
| 22:18.04 | Monet | I might be able to give a solid answer |
| 22:18.05 | Vincent20100 | SIK? o.O |
| 22:18.30 | The_Randomness | While I personally would prefer to work with just one species, I would be fine if we have two or three |
| 22:18.50 | Hachiman | Because that is what one of the larger player-ran factions, the Imperium, has lost in less than a month due to a conflict with a coalition of smaller corporations and factions that are essentially acting as proxies for a third party who are in dispute with the Imperium |
| 22:19.10 | Wormy__ | Hachi: I googled it, got an answer, then realised it was Icelandic Króna. |
| 22:19.24 | Monet | Wormy__: Wrong ISK |
| 22:20.04 | Charles_Murray | The_randomness The idea is to create a private space where users can create have their own planet and their own species (if they choose) or use that of others, and a public collab effort which is owned, operated, and fleshed out by the community |
| 22:20.05 | Hachiman | The Imperium owed a betting site money, did not pay up, and then the administrators are paying EVE corporations to unify and gang up against the Imperium on their behalf; the alliance of corporations being known as the MoneyBadger Coalition |
| 22:20.09 | Charles_Murray | Which is the space federation |
| 22:20.21 | Charles_Murray | A sort of space British Commonwealth |
| 22:20.37 | Wormy__ | This pleases me |
| 22:20.51 | Technobliterator | I oppose space British Commonwealth because I oppose anything that references Britain by default |
| 22:20.52 | Technobliterator | 8D |
| 22:20.55 | The_Randomness | Give me a moment, I need to think about this and quickly finish a homework assignment |
| 22:20.57 | Monet | Hachiman: For a group like the Imperium, 40bil isk in a month isn't much. |
| 22:20.59 | Technobliterator | obviously I'm kidding |
| 22:21.11 | Hachiman | How about 40bil in a week |
| 22:21.48 | Hachiman | Plus losing a lot of their larger territories |
| 22:22.18 | Monet | £22.099 |
| 22:22.42 | Technobliterator | man |
| 22:22.46 | Monet | Wait... |
| 22:22.46 | Charles_Murray | Technobliterator : *bonks* |
| 22:22.47 | Technobliterator | I wish more places were like Iceland |
| 22:23.03 | Monet | Technobliterator: Wrong ISK |
| 22:23.18 | Technobliterator | no, I was making an offhand comment when I saw Iceland mentioned |
| 22:23.25 | Technobliterator | I dunno what this ISK is about honestly |
| 22:23.51 | Hachiman | It's EVE Online stuff |
| 22:24.03 | Wormy__ | EVE Online currency, I believe. |
| 22:24.14 | Hachiman | Where interstellar economics and corporate politics run rampant |
| 22:24.31 | Wormy__ | Its really interesting |
| 22:25.10 | Monet | Okay I have an answer |
| 22:25.30 | Monet | 40bil ISK is worth about £724 |
| 22:25.42 | Hachiman | Huh |
| 22:25.49 | Hachiman | A bit underwhelming |
| 22:26.17 | Monet | The losses at B-54B were in the trillions of ISK |
| 22:26.32 | Hachiman | Oh |
| 22:26.34 | Hachiman | Oh shit |
| 22:26.35 | Monet | BR-5RB* |
| 22:26.36 | Hachiman | I read it wrong |
| 22:26.45 | Hachiman | It wasn't 40bil; it was 400bil |
| 22:27.16 | Monet | I'll rerun calculations |
| 22:27.18 | ImpyDroid | 7k |
| 22:27.25 | ImpyDroid | That is about |
| 22:27.26 | Monet | Currently £10 is worth about 1.81bil |
| 22:27.45 | ImpyDroid | 700000 roubles |
| 22:27.51 | ImpyDroid | That is a fucking lot |
| 22:28.40 | Hachiman | They're calling the conflict fucking World War Bee |
| 22:29.13 | Monet | Lol! |
| 22:29.13 | The_Randomness | Charles_Murray: Could you tell me a little more about this "private space" that you mentioned? |
| 22:29.14 | Xho | Still don't quite understand EVE |
| 22:29.27 | Monet | Hachiman: Sides on the verge of splitting! |
| 22:29.46 | DrodoEmpire | Xho: Basically where you fly around and scam people out of their space-shekels |
| 22:29.52 | Hachiman | Why are they calling it that? |
| 22:29.52 | DrodoEmpire | That's all I know |
| 22:29.53 | Monet | OKay 400bil ISK i more like 2.2 grand |
| 22:29.59 | Hachiman | Like, what do bees have to do with anything |
| 22:30.15 | Monet | Hachiman: The Imperium is Goonswarm. |
| 22:30.18 | Hachiman | Oh right, Goonswarm |
| 22:30.36 | Monet | I spoke with a player in Nottinghman once |
| 22:30.38 | Ghel | A bit late to the discussion, but: it seems that I, Wormy and Random all agree that it would be better for the super-collab to have as few alien species as possible. And, as the natural science specialists, it would be nice if people took that to heart. There is currently little evidence of people wanting to make a plethora of species, too. |
| 22:30.54 | DrodoEmpire | Uhh |
| 22:30.55 | Ghel | However, we of course can't force people to not make new aliens if that's what they want to do. |
| 22:31.01 | DrodoEmpire | "Little evicence"? :p |
| 22:31.05 | Monet | Goons have held that area of spece for so long theri empire is *about* as safe as the NPC empires. |
| 22:31.07 | DrodoEmpire | *evidence |
| 22:31.15 | DrodoEmpire | Pretty sure several people have expressed interest |
| 22:31.17 | Ghel | People want to make species of their own for the super-collab, yes. |
| 22:31.19 | Charles_Murray | Now we're getting a little crowded |
| 22:31.30 | Charles_Murray | Can we all go to #Katar, those who are interested in the super collab? |
| 22:31.50 | Ghel | But I haven't seen very many do so yet. |
| 22:32.02 | Ghel | I would join, but it's time for me to be going. |
| 22:32.02 | Xho | Monet: http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/spore/images/0/09/ValussarNalganex.png/revision/latest?cb=20160411200807 You'll like this one |
| 22:32.17 | Ghel | Let me know what happens tomorrow. |
| 22:32.18 | Ghel | Bye! |
| 22:32.21 | Wormy__ | bye |
| 22:32.30 | Monet | Red dragon general dood. |
| 22:33.42 | Monet | I'd consider how this might compare to the Great Northern War but I don't really know anything about it. |
| 22:34.10 | Monet | Other than it's kinda EVE's WoA. |
| 22:34.35 | Monet | Just replace demons with Goonswarm. |
| 22:35.00 | Hachiman | Man, Goonswarm is unpopular |
| 22:35.35 | Monet | They're the bees everyone loves to hate. |
| 22:36.57 | Charles_Murray | Ghel : Get in #Katar |
| 22:37.00 | Monet | They're unpopular but Goons tend to be the ones writing history. |
| 22:37.06 | Charles_Murray | Oh sorry |
| 22:37.23 | Monet | Hell they're so big that I think their director is basically living off the success of TheMittani.com. |
| 22:37.41 | *** join/#sporewiki Deckmaster (~quassel@pool-173-75-62-100.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net) |
| 22:37.41 | *** join/#sporewiki Deckmaster (~quassel@wikia/morgoth1145) |
| 22:37.41 | *** mode/#sporewiki [+o Deckmaster] by ChanServ |
| 22:38.52 | Hachiman | Man, imagine if Sporewiki had corporate wars like EVE |
| 22:39.03 | Hachiman | But then, we do not really have non-national factions |
| 22:39.26 | Hachiman | Only exception might be Borealis but they are mostly villainous and consist of PMCs and mercenaries |
| 22:39.36 | Hachiman | And pirates |
| 22:40.04 | Xho | And demons and extradimensional horros |
| 22:40.06 | Xho | horros |
| 22:40.11 | Xho | I can't fucking spell this fucking word |
| 22:40.14 | Xho | Seriously fuck off |
| 22:40.16 | Xho | horrors |
| 22:40.17 | Xho | there we go |
| 22:40.33 | Monet | Wars in EVE mostly play out like real wars. |
| 22:41.03 | Monet | So not that different. |
| 22:41.56 | Monet | Except for the way wars in EVE often collapse because hauler players are in short supply and *really* high demand. |
| 22:42.57 | Monet | And regarding villainy. |
| 22:43.40 | Monet | All the big players in EVE are fucking dicks. |
| 22:43.48 | Hachiman | Yeah |
| 22:43.57 | Monet | Mittani himself started off as Goonswarm's spymaster. |
| 22:44.44 | Hachiman | I remember there was one player who independently ran a banking corporation for multiple other corporations and then decided to go rogue and take the culmination of all of their money before disappearing off the map |
| 22:45.09 | Monet | He's still talked about. |
| 22:46.56 | Charles_Murray | Hachiman : France has corporations |
| 22:47.27 | Charles_Murray | And I have plans in Borealis for the Outer Ottzello Trading Company to attempt to secede from France |
| 22:48.17 | Monet | BTW I'm suddently curious, did you hear World War Bee from Scott Manley? |
| 22:48.38 | Hachiman | Nah, one of my friends who play EVE is constantly updating me on the situation with the Imperium |
| 22:48.56 | Hachiman | I think he is part of Test Alliance |
| 22:49.27 | Monet | Ahh yes. |
| 22:49.27 | Monet | Test. |
| 22:50.46 | Hachiman | Or at least, I think he was part of Test then his boss decided "fuck it" and went solo before this whole situation with World War Bee began |
| 22:51.09 | Monet | I've been out of the loop. |
| 22:51.26 | Monet | Though at present my concerns are with PIRAT. |
| 22:51.45 | Monet | Or at least, my corp's concerns |
| 22:52.12 | Charles_Murray | Nobody is going to comment on that corporation? D: |
| 22:52.31 | Hachiman | I don't really have any business with France |
| 22:53.04 | Hachiman | Though it would be cool to see what becomes of a corporation seceding from the state |
| 22:53.34 | Charles_Murray | The big issue is that they're trying to take the planets they own with them xD |
| 22:57.29 | *** join/#sporewiki Liquid_Ink (79d0cd9d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.121.208.205.157) |
| 22:57.47 | Monet | France is establishing itself quite solidily in Borealis. |
| 22:58.03 | Monet | Quiote impressive |
| 23:00.45 | Charles_Murray | Due to internal divisions and its low colony count, its hold is rather tenuous, but it does have an economic presence |
| 23:01.03 | Charles_Murray | By 2810, it has about 50 systems |
| 23:01.44 | *** join/#sporewiki dino82_ (d8dd47aa@gateway/web/freenode/ip.216.221.71.170) |
| 23:02.03 | *** join/#sporewiki Charles_Bot (uid94017@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-udiejrspmtsevzmt) |
| 23:02.42 | Technobliterator | Well, it should be able to have a greater presence when the Loron are defeated |
| 23:03.26 | Charles_Bot | ^ I wanted to speak to you about Ottzello actually |
| 23:04.19 | Hachiman | I will always regard Cally as one of, if not the, ultimate dick in EVE due to exploiting start-up and mining corporations and his own employees within the EVE Intergalactic Bank in order to make himself unimaginably rich |
| 23:04.57 | dino82_ | hi |
| 23:05.02 | Hachiman | He stole 790bil ISK; approximately $170,000 at the time of the event |
| 23:05.13 | Monet | Well he didn't start off a dick. |
| 23:05.39 | Technobliterator | hi dino |
| 23:07.16 | Monet | HAchiman: And he used it all to buy a dreadnought, stick a giant bounty on his head and run off into the night. An achievement indeed |
| 23:08.11 | Hachiman | Just imagine something like that happening in Andromeda |
| 23:08.18 | Hachiman | One man scamming the entirety of the PAE |
| 23:08.37 | Hachiman | Or at least one of the Highlord states |
| 23:09.04 | DrodoEmpire | PAE - u gon die now bitch |
| 23:12.10 | Charles_Bot | ^ |
| 23:14.20 | Wormy__ | The Agency would go after him |
| 23:14.39 | Wormy__ | Hm, we used to have a fiction that listed wanted men with bounties |
| 23:14.43 | Wormy__ | dead or alive |
| 23:17.17 | Technobliterator | Oluap still has one of those |
| 23:17.22 | Technobliterator | the PCA wanted list |
| 23:19.09 | dino82_ | Howz all dong? ANything going on at the wiki? |
| 23:19.15 | dino82_ | Seems a bit quiet last few days haah |
| 23:19.31 | Technobliterator | Reckoning still on going! |
| 23:19.35 | Technobliterator | almost finished, actually |
| 23:19.57 | DrodoEmpire | Almost finished. Huh. >.< |
| 23:20.00 | Hachiman | Monet: Is it known if Cally was ever caught? |
| 23:20.05 | DrodoEmpire | Charles and me have barely started our section |
| 23:20.24 | Wormy__ | Get it done! I waqnt to do mine! |
| 23:20.50 | DrodoEmpire | I would. >.< Charles seems pretty busy is all |
| 23:21.02 | Wormy__ | impatient mumbling |
| 23:21.17 | Wormy__ | Actually, I've still got my part of GXS tofinish |
| 23:21.57 | Technobliterator | well, almost finished is like |
| 23:21.58 | Technobliterator | 60% done |
| 23:22.01 | Monet | Hachiman: No idea. |
| 23:22.29 | Monet | Though I doubt Cally's still about |
| 23:23.30 | Hachiman | If he is a truly smart man, he would have stayed logged out |
| 23:23.41 | Hachiman | So that's just 790bil off the record |
| 23:24.11 | Xho | Hm I do wonder whether the Agents would go after a PAE scammer |
| 23:24.20 | Xho | Not usually in their interests |
| 23:25.07 | dino82_ | @Jo: Oh already finished? |
| 23:25.19 | dino82_ | or almost? |
| 23:25.27 | Wormy__ | Wild Tiger numbers are on the rise http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-36012569 |
| 23:25.38 | Wormy__ | See its not all gloom and doom in the world |
| 23:25.40 | DrodoEmpire | I heard Wormy |
| 23:25.43 | DrodoEmpire | Good news :D |
| 23:25.55 | DrodoEmpire | Seems like conservation efforts, while difficult, can pay off |
| 23:26.29 | Monet | Xho: I myself am curious how Borealis deals with white collar crime |
| 23:26.30 | Monet | in general |
| 23:26.36 | Xho | Hm |
| 23:26.47 | Hachiman | But, I thought tigers were recently deemed functionally extinct in Cambodia? |
| 23:26.54 | Xho | I imagine the Penumbra unit would get involved at a high level of severity |
| 23:27.55 | Monet | White colalr criminals don't tend to kill so is execution justifiable? |
| 23:28.19 | Monet | don't tend to kill or physically destroy, rather. |
| 23:28.41 | DrodoEditing | Writing a section for my Reckoning story |
| 23:28.47 | Hachiman | Well, if a character like this was modelled off of Cally, he would have put a bounty on his own head |
| 23:28.57 | Hachiman | Which I imagine would lead to a LOT of fighting |
| 23:29.02 | *** join/#sporewiki Wormy_ (02184654@gateway/web/freenode/ip.2.24.70.84) |
| 23:34.22 | Monet | True but that's after he comitted the crime |
| 23:36.04 | Monet | That fighting would be an extra accusation of resisting arrest. |
| 23:37.00 | Hachiman | I kinda meant fighting between those individuals and companies that want the bounty hur |
| 23:38.51 | Monet | Ah |
| 23:39.25 | Monet | Well that's more of an after-effect of the crime. |
| 23:40.16 | Monet | But I can understand why peopel would fight over the reward |
| 23:40.22 | Monet | They could share it but that's no fun. |
| 23:41.35 | Hachiman | Aye |
