IRC log for #maemo-ssu on 20140119

00:02.19freemangordondammit, seems like a bug in gcc :(
00:26.04DocScrutinizer05wut? you found a bug in gcc? incredible!
00:26.09DocScrutinizer05;-)
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10:48.41freemangordon<PROTECTED>
10:49.03keriomh
10:49.09kerioit could be a problem
10:49.14freemangordonhmm?
10:49.18kerioi still have no decent internets on my n900
10:49.34kerioactually ima backup
10:49.36freemangordonso?
10:49.46kerioidk its a bit annoying
10:49.51kerioi'll do it tho, need to backup first
10:49.52freemangordonanyway you should download the .deb by hand
10:49.59freemangordonok
10:50.08keriofuck moving files around
10:50.09kerioi wget
10:50.12kerioor bust
10:50.33freemangordonkerio: BTW I have the impression that everything is 2 times faster. could be a placebo effect though
10:50.53kerio:3
10:51.22kerioalso how's it possible that a 2600eur laptop only has 2 usb ports i dont get it
10:51.45freemangordonkerio: wait, what?!? you paid 2600 euros for a laptop?
10:51.54keriowell i paid 2400 for it
10:51.56freemangordonare you crazy man?
10:52.03keriobut it's so fucking cool
10:52.24freemangordondoes it do blowjobs? I guess for that price :P
10:53.22kerio...why the hell does rescueos need a login via telnet
10:53.25kerioinstead of giving you a shell
10:54.14ShadowJK's obnoxiously expensive laptop came with 5 usb ports
10:54.24keriofwiw they can't really fit i guess
10:54.36keriomeh
10:54.46keriothis shits like crazy small
10:55.05freemangordonShadowJK: are you on -thumb?
10:55.09ShadowJKyes
10:55.26freemangordonwanna help me test thumb-compiled glibc6?
10:55.49ShadowJKuh, okay
10:55.53ShadowJKsounds scary :)
10:56.00kerioi'm backupping dis
10:56.29freemangordonis afk for a while
10:58.05keriostupid question: does it work on *your* device?
10:58.26freemangordonkerio: see the link I posted ;)
10:58.32freemangordonkerio: ofc it does
10:58.40kerioalright i trust you
10:58.56freemangordonhow do you think I decided that:
10:59.14freemangordonit is 2 times fatser
10:59.14kerioidk it's something i'd do :3
10:59.33kerio"can you please test this it might wreck your n900, i don't wanna test it on mine"
11:09.57freemangordonkerio: you're not me :)
11:11.03freemangordonI never, ever, ask lusers to install thumb-related stuff on their devices without first installing it on my daily and had a reboot
11:12.26keriomh, why isn't internet sharing working as intended here
11:12.34keriomeh
11:15.56freemangordonShadowJK: hmm, why scary, it is just another library :)
11:21.02keriogaaah why isn't this working
11:21.04keriofucking osx
11:22.33keriomeh
11:22.36kerio"just works" my ass
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11:26.39keriofreemangordon: wait, why are you using an external file storage thing
11:26.48kerioinstead of your space on merlin's server
11:27.01freemangordonhmm, good question :D
11:27.17kerioi can't wget that :s
11:27.55freemangordonhowever, now my desktop is finally on linux, I'll set up web server and debian repo soon
11:28.02freemangordonkerio: download it with microb
11:28.10kerioalso i *really* need to find a way to use my home connection
11:28.15kerioi need to update 22MB of things
11:28.17kerio22 is a lot
11:28.24kerio...meh fuck it
11:28.44freemangordonkerio: what is the problem with your home connection?
11:28.49kerioi can't use it
11:28.53freemangordonwhy?
11:28.54keriobecause my n900's wifi doesn't work
11:28.57freemangordonooh
11:29.14freemangordonbroken?
11:29.18kerioi think so, yeah
11:29.29freemangordonhmm
11:29.32kerionow, with snow leopard, internet sharing over usbnet used to work
11:29.47keriobut now, nope
11:30.12kerioi wonder if i can use bluetooth pan
11:32.03kerioi'll tell you, it's really pretty fucking annoying
11:32.19kerioi should probably set up some "stable" usb networking on my home server actually
11:32.58kerioi really need a powered usb hub for that, tho
11:33.05keriothe sheevaplug has no protection circuits on the usb port
11:33.09kerioso it's easy to overdraw
11:33.14kerioand wreck the power supply
11:33.31freemangordonwhy don;t you by another device with everything working?
11:33.47kerioi'm not gonna buy another n900
11:33.48kerioseriously
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11:34.35freemangordonhmm, why?
11:34.43keriothe one i have works!
11:35.02freemangordonbut, but,... you said wifi dowsn't wokr
11:35.15freemangordonomg, what a typing skills
11:35.36keriofreemangordon: yeah but it makes phone calls
11:35.57freemangordonyou lost me on that one
11:37.13kerioit does serve its main purpose
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11:39.31keriofreemangordon: ok here goes nothin'
11:39.48trxfreemangordon installed, rebooted
11:39.51trxso far so good
11:39.56keriorebooting
11:40.29kerioh-d isn't crashing
11:40.32kerioso far so good
11:40.54freemangordongood
11:40.55trxit actually is faster
11:41.05freemangordontrx: ain't?
11:41.05trxor placebo :)
11:41.10freemangordonyeah :D
11:41.18trxbut it is
11:41.19keriothe point of placebo isn't that it does nothing
11:41.22keriothe point of placebo is that it works
11:41.24kerio:3
11:41.27kerioanyway, it works
11:41.30trxit started up faster, and opens shit faster
11:41.36freemangordon:nod:
11:41.44freemangordonsame feeling here
11:41.47trxgood job :)
11:41.48keriofeel faster but it could be suggestion
11:42.07freemangordonwill compare with my GF's device when she is here
11:43.00keriolet's get DocScrutinizer into this
11:43.45ShadowJKmain purpose is wifi+3g for irc, surely
11:44.12kerioShadowJK: to be honest, yeah
11:44.18keriobut meh, i have a laptop
11:44.24kerioso wifi+irc isn't *that* useful
11:44.30kerioand irc uses so little traffic anyway
11:46.16freemangordonhmm, ok, will test it for a week and will issue a new update
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12:42.29Ashley`freemangordon, I am not sure, but I think my N900 with your libc started up faster :P
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13:29.04kerioit probably did
13:29.11kerioi mean, libc is kind of used everywhere
13:29.17kerioand this is a better version
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15:16.57freemangordonhmm, I tried to compare application startup times between my device with -thumb glibc and my GF's device, with cssu's one. Also compared the devices startup times. My device is OC to 805, her is @ 600. Surprise, surprise:
15:17.13freemangordonThere is no difference :D
15:17.43freemangordonso, that means that my test cases are flawed and we're still flash/swap speed bound
15:18.14freemangordonI am open to suggestions on how to test thumb/non-thumb glibc speed
15:18.22freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: ^^^
15:19.17freemangordonall others too ofc:  ^^^
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15:41.09DocScrutinizer05I think there is no better test than real usecase like boot time and app startup. It's probably hard to create and run real standardized application performance tests
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15:51.36kerioDocScrutinizer05: install the glibc!
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16:19.38freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: yes, but if the speed is IO bound, such test tells nothing about glibc speed
16:20.35DocScrutinizer05well, then glibc speed is irrelevant?
16:28.08DocScrutinizer05when you find your PC has a bottleneck on IO/HDD, will you throw massive amounts of money at a octocore instead of the dualcore it may have right now, when you consider improving it?
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16:39.09freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: come on, I am not 13 years old :P. If glibc is faster that means slightly better battry life, ain't?
16:40.11freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: I want to measure glibc performance, not the system performance. But have no idea how
16:40.16DocScrutinizer05umm, right. then that's the way to go for glibc evaluation, no? simply check system load average last 5 min, while doing exactly same tasks on two systems
16:40.58dos1aren't thumb binaries actually slower?
16:41.15DocScrutinizer05supposed to be slower, yes
16:41.18dos1I thought that speed up on cssu-thumb came from decreased memory usage
16:41.27DocScrutinizer05:nod:
16:41.44DocScrutinizer05I'm unclear if this whole thing is about thumb though
16:42.08freemangordondos1: but the catch is that gcc used to build them is waaay better than stock
16:42.10DocScrutinizer05might be related to a newer improved glibc version, unrelated to thumb
16:42.32dos1freemangordon: ah, ok
16:42.37DocScrutinizer05:-)
16:42.40DocScrutinizer05makes sense
16:43.05freemangordondos1: for example - some openssl benchmarks are 2 times faster with thumb and gcc 4.7.2
16:43.08DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: check system load
16:43.29DocScrutinizer05make sure you're not suffering from IO lagging
16:43.33freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: hmm, ok. will ask google too
16:43.54freemangordonit is not a lag, might be related to rootfs compression
16:43.58DocScrutinizer05e.g game playing might be a good way to check for CPU load
16:44.11freemangordondon;t think so
16:44.26DocScrutinizer05nah, IO spoils load figures while CPU actually might be idle
16:44.35freemangordonyep
16:44.52DocScrutinizer05thus do something that's CPU heavy and IO light
16:45.01DocScrutinizer05and then check system load
16:45.19DocScrutinizer05A vs B
16:46.00freemangordonhmm, what about that one? http://www.etalabs.net/libc-bench.html
16:46.39DocScrutinizer05time for ((x=0; x<10000000; x++ )) do :; done
16:48.41DocScrutinizer05well, maybe 2 "0" less
16:49.46freemangordonlets see
16:51.01DocScrutinizer05IroN900:~# time for ((x=0; x<100000; x++ )) do :; done; cat /proc/loadavg
16:51.02DocScrutinizer05real    0m15.943s
16:51.03DocScrutinizer05user    0m15.344s
16:51.04freemangordonhmm, actually it takes about a second for every test, lets not OK
16:51.05DocScrutinizer05sys     0m0.289s
16:51.06DocScrutinizer050.23 0.07 0.02 1/202 22962
16:51.13freemangordonOC even
16:51.28DocScrutinizer05maybe I need to add one 0
16:51.52freemangordonuse how it is, the whole bench takes about 40 seconds
16:51.54freemangordonhere :)
16:52.48freemangordonreal0m 35.85s
16:52.51freemangordonuser0m 17.40s
16:52.53freemangordonsys0m 14.48s
16:53.07freemangordondevice @ 600 MHz, glibc-thumb
16:53.57freemangordonthis is for libc-bench, lets see how it will perform on cssu glibc
16:56.34DocScrutinizer05IroN900:~# time for ((x=0; x<1000000; x++ )) do :; done; cat /proc/loadavg
16:56.36DocScrutinizer05real    2m41.718s
16:56.37DocScrutinizer05user    2m36.547s
16:56.39DocScrutinizer05sys     0m2.336s
16:56.40DocScrutinizer050.94 0.46 0.17 1/202 22963
16:57.00freemangordonreal0m 35.85s
16:57.03freemangordonuser0m 17.40s
16:57.05freemangordonsys0m 14.48s
16:57.14freemangordondevice with cssu libc @ 600 MHz
16:57.24freemangordonoops
16:57.28freemangordonreal0m 35.60s
16:57.30freemangordonuser0m 17.16s
16:57.32freemangordonsys0m 14.38s
16:57.34freemangordonthat one ^^^
16:58.19freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: -sh: syntax error: "(" unexpected
16:58.28freemangordondo you have bash by chance?
16:58.33DocScrutinizer05use a proper shell
16:58.49freemangordonoh, come on
16:59.24freemangordonI won't install bash on my GF's device just to please you :)
17:00.17DocScrutinizer05then rewrite the above oneliner to basicbourne
17:00.28freemangordonis C/++ developer :P
17:00.37DocScrutinizer05and i'll happily c&p and echo the results
17:00.41freemangordonnot a linux admin
17:00.58freemangordonseriously, it'll take me 15 minutes to figure it out
17:01.20DocScrutinizer05the obvious use of "for i in `seq 1 1000000`" might fail epically
17:02.37DocScrutinizer05you'll have to unroll the for-statement into a proper conditional sequence wrapped into a while loop
17:03.24DocScrutinizer05sth like i=0; while [ i -lt 100000 ]; do :; done
17:03.31DocScrutinizer05err
17:03.54DocScrutinizer05sth like i=0; while [ i -lt 100000 ]; do $(( i++ )) :; done
17:04.00freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: scratch that , this libc-bench tests various stuff, like ptherds etc
17:04.32freemangordonseems glibc-thumb is neither faster nor slower than cssu glibc
17:04.44DocScrutinizer05that's for sure nice but far from my every day reality
17:05.07DocScrutinizer05well, THAT result however is pretty close to my reality ;-P
17:05.12freemangordonok, maybe 2-5% faster, but i guess that is not relevant
17:05.42DocScrutinizer05yeah, <5% is probing error
17:05.49freemangordonwhat counts is that gliibc alone is 1.2 MB in cssu and ~800k thumbified
17:06.15DocScrutinizer05hmm, so we saved 400kB
17:06.43DocScrutinizer05which is nice though not groundbreaking
17:09.04freemangordonmore than that, there are more libs and bins in glibc
17:09.18freemangordonmaybe aboiut 600-700KiB
17:33.35DocScrutinizer05really nice, but still... It's a shared lib
17:34.56DocScrutinizer05I guess the best thing to say about new glibc would be that it's basically not distinguishable from old one
17:36.12DocScrutinizer05100% compatibility is of paramount importance. everything else is just a bonus on top
17:37.08DocScrutinizer05I've seen gcc or linker fsckup symbol names so stuff broke with no apparent reason
17:37.35DocScrutinizer05and of course it did that for one variable type only, in one particular situation
17:40.44DocScrutinizer05sure apps liked against new lib used new symbol name, but "old" apps suddenly stopped working with "symbol not found" despite the particular function didn't change at all in new lib version
17:41.00DocScrutinizer05linked*
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17:42.41DocScrutinizer05and since no proper testframe came with the whole thing, the problem only showed up much later, when first app not only referred to but actually used that particular function (iirc)
17:43.48DocScrutinizer05must have been like 6 years or more ago, so sorry when my memory is sparse
17:44.38DocScrutinizer05iirc it been in context of twinkle and probably libboost or the rtp-libs
17:44.57DocScrutinizer05or maybe even qt
17:55.40freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: just look at lines 39-40 here https://gitorious.org/community-ssu/glibc/commit/c3afe0ae3f658b947126e27950ad0cf41410ae23
17:55.55freemangordonthat is what fixes the non-working locales :D
17:56.11freemangordonre: "I've seen gcc or linker fsckup symbol names so stuff broke with no apparent reason"
17:57.23freemangordonwithout that patch _nl_category_name_idxs[category] always evaluates to 0, no matter the index
17:57.35freemangordongcc screwed it badly this time
17:58.03freemangordonor /me knows nothing about C
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18:39.39DocScrutinizer05err, looks pretty much gibbersih to me.
18:40.30DocScrutinizer05anyway that one actual c line that's in there looks semantically changed to me
18:42.04DocScrutinizer05<PROTECTED>
18:42.49DocScrutinizer05no idea what happens when adding those
18:45.23DocScrutinizer05to make matter worse, the whole thing is a multiline #def aiui
18:47.14DocScrutinizer05which renders the whole thinh subject to macroprocessor parsing. No idea what the macroprozessor creates out of it
18:47.26DocScrutinizer05thing*
18:47.52DocScrutinizer05a trailing space can already mess up stuff I guess
18:49.23DocScrutinizer05I seem to recall it's not first time I seen "( )" used in macros, for obscure reasons
18:49.50DocScrutinizer05though the major diff is the deref*
18:50.35DocScrutinizer05and all this needs checking if it might mean something special to the macroprocessor
18:51.14DocScrutinizer05don't ask me about the makefile sed commands, completely obscure
18:52.18DocScrutinizer05+nscd-cflags += -fstack-protector $(common-objpfx)$(binfmt-subdir)/ld-linux.so.3   errwutevr
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19:21.54freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: scratch the makefiles change, I pointed you to lines 39-40
19:21.59freemangordon- _nl_category_names.str + _nl_category_name_idxs[category]
19:22.02freemangordon40 + (_nl_category_names.str + *(_nl_category_name_idxs + category))
19:22.12freemangordonthis is one and the same thing
19:22.31freemangordonbut gcc fails to properly compile the old one
19:22.45freemangordonthat "_nl_category_names.str + _nl_category_name_idxs[category]" one
19:23.23freemangordonthis always results in like "category" is 0
19:24.31freemangordonI put the brackets as I am used to always surrond macro expressions in brackets
19:24.36freemangordon*surround
19:28.47ShadowJKI forget if it depends on how the type whether foo[bar] is same as * (foo + bar) or not
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19:32.44freemangordonShadowJK: index is always converted to in and whether it is *(p+i) or p[i] makes (well, should not make) any difference
19:32.53freemangordons/in/int/
19:33.05freemangordonhmm?
19:33.26freemangordonanyway, read "converted to int"
19:34.08freemangordonShadowJK: both dereference the same pointer type
19:34.47freemangordonwell, it is not the first time in the history when the compiler oversmarts itself
19:35.48freemangordonShadowJK: think of *p and p[0]
19:42.07DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: is this c or c++?
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19:42.33DocScrutinizer05aiui _nl_category_names.str is an object
19:42.45freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: this is C
19:42.52freemangordonglibc, remember :P
19:42.56DocScrutinizer05ooh
19:42.59DocScrutinizer05:-P
19:43.41DocScrutinizer05well, then it's actually just a question if it maybe is a macropreprocessor hiccup
19:44.09DocScrutinizer05you qould try kick out optimization, just for test
19:44.15DocScrutinizer05could*
19:44.26DocScrutinizer05-O0 ?
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19:45.08DocScrutinizer05check preproc output of both versions
19:45.15DocScrutinizer05check assembly of both versions
19:45.25DocScrutinizer05will tell a story, I'm sure
19:46.45DocScrutinizer05no doubt it's a bug or highly undesirable "feature" of gcc
19:46.59ShadowJKlol, I logged in to my server and did "nano test.c" and discovered previous test was also pointer arithmetic
19:47.00DocScrutinizer05nevertheless I'd want to check what exactly happening there
19:48.33DocScrutinizer05maybe compiler thinks _nl_category_name_idxs is an array of vars of size 0
19:49.14DocScrutinizer05(yeah I know that doesn't make any sense)
19:50.23DocScrutinizer05nayway sizeof(_nl_category_name_idxs) would be first thing I'd check
19:51.10DocScrutinizer05as well as sizeof(_nl_category_name_idxs[0])
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20:05.51DocScrutinizer05I'd almost *bet* compiler "thinks" the elements of _nl_category_name_idxs are size 0
20:06.22DocScrutinizer05does it comsist of structs?
20:07.04DocScrutinizer05which are still "empty" at that time/phase of compiler run?
20:08.03freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: glibc can't be compiled without optimization
20:08.13freemangordonthere is a compile-time check
20:08.45DocScrutinizer05and I bet it optimizes by compile-time solving of constant arithmetic expressions
20:09.21DocScrutinizer05and for some reason thinks sizeof(_nl_category_name_idxs) == 0
20:10.08DocScrutinizer05thus the whole "+ _nl_category_name_idxs[category]" term is const 0
20:10.16DocScrutinizer05--> optimize it out
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21:20.58keriofreemangordon: have you seen luf lately?
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22:06.18freemangordonkerio: mo :(
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