| 00:24.16 | T_X | does anyone know which kernel module is responsible for the phone/umts/etc.? |
| 00:24.44 | T_X | for the n900 that is |
| 00:27.49 | T_X | and secondly, would unloading that module prevent any interaction with a phone tower? |
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| 00:35.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | a: there's not exactly a phone kernel module, there's phonet and cmt_speech |
| 00:36.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | the one is for communication, the other for audio |
| 00:37.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | b: the modem doesn't need any of those kernel modules neither libisi to communicate with the "phone tower" |
| 00:38.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | as soon as you power up the modem, it already starts searching for cells, and it *might* even communicate with them |
| 00:41.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | it usually _shouldn't_ transmit as long as no AT+CFUN=1 or the isi analogon gets sent from AP to cmt, but you can't guarantee that, the firmware might be buggy or compromised |
| 00:55.19 | T_X | DocScrutinizer05: ah, k, thx! |
| 01:16.42 | ShadowJK | There are direct lines from omap gpio to modem reset, though the modem is a blackbox and who knows if it can operate while being held in reset |
| 01:33.52 | T_X | I had some message about emergency numbers disabled when I once tried rmmodding random kernel modules. but yeah, you're right that doesn'- have to mean anything |
| 01:34.13 | T_X | and I guess AT+CFUN=4 (disable transmit and receive RF circuits (flight mode) ) won't help either |
| 01:34.38 | T_X | funnily, for AT+CFUN=4 I don't get this message about disabled emergency numbers |
| 01:53.40 | T_X | hm, rmmoding ssi_mcsaab_imp seems a little promising. that's the one disabling the emergency numbers |
| 01:54.09 | T_X | and it also disables pnatd, so entering AT_CFUN=x can't be entered anymore :) |
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| 02:25.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | I wonder what you're after |
| 02:25.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://siliconpr0n.org/wiki/doku.php?id=physical_protection :-D |
| 04:07.00 | ShadowJK | mcsaab is going to be the actual data lines |
| 04:13.45 | T_X | hm, would be handy to have a base station in our hackerspace to test stuff like that |
| 04:13.57 | T_X | :) |
| 04:14.29 | T_X | or a USRP |
| 04:21.16 | ShadowJK | Test what |
| 04:21.40 | ShadowJK | Loading and unloading kernel modules is kinda pointless :P |
| 04:23.14 | ShadowJK | The modem is a fully functional computer with its own CPU, RAM and its own power management. |
| 04:23.24 | ShadowJK | The same modem can (and probably has been) used on its own in a featurephone or low-end symbian phone, with a display and keypad connected directly to it |
| 04:25.09 | ShadowJK | After Symbian gained realtime capabilities, the OS could be loaded into the modem's cpu and run concurrently with the realtime tasks of the modem :) |
| 04:25.31 | ShadowJK | Save a cpu+ram combo |
| 04:25.56 | ShadowJK | I'll note further that the GPS is hooked up to the modem ;) |
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| 06:31.08 | FatPhil | One would hope that from a power management perspective, once the last thing making use of the modem is removed, it would be powered down. |
| 06:33.24 | FatPhil | perhaps powertop will show the difference in power/clock domain activity in the two cases |
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| 07:30.56 | kerio | FatPhil: it might be so |
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| 09:09.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | ShadowJK: BB5 is on many Nokia phones, indeed |
| 09:11.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | FatPhil: how would modem know about "removing things" that use it? |
| 09:12.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | it sounds like "after switching off speakers and monitor, i'd hope the PC powers down" |
| 09:18.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | FatPhil: actually it's like that: you need to tell modem to power down, explicitly. |
| 09:19.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | more often than not it's the AP that plays power-down, and it's modem to wake AP up |
| 09:19.17 | kerio | more like "i hope that if nothing is using the audio, then the audio card powers down" |
| 09:19.26 | kerio | which is not ridiculous, to be honest |
| 09:19.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's correct... for audiocard |
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| 09:19.49 | kerio | s/powers down/is powered down/ |
| 09:19.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | nonono |
| 09:20.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | aiui the card auto-powerdowns |
| 09:20.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | not on N900 |
| 09:20.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | but on PC aiui |
| 09:21.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, somedtimes it might be the alsa soundcard driver module in kernelspace doing the powerdown |
| 09:21.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | with some luck, and when not using braindamaged PA |
| 09:22.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | pukeaudio |
| 09:22.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | err PolypAudio |
| 09:24.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | dang, is tmo dead? or just all its users? |
| 09:25.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | tmo is more mindboggling than a pub, you never know when there's busy time so you don't find a seat and when it's dead |
| 09:25.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | last ten days or so I seen ~2 new posts per hour, and ~100 thanks per day. Since 12h zilch |
| 09:26.14 | jon_y | tmo is dead? |
| 09:26.16 | jon_y | :) |
| 09:26.45 | jon_y | tend to avoid forums and use mailing lists instad |
| 09:26.48 | jon_y | *instead |
| 09:27.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, did same until I came to maemo |
| 09:27.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | for OM we *had no* forum |
| 09:27.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | God was that a good time |
| 09:28.10 | jon_y | less eternal September shenanigans |
| 09:28.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | then came freeyourphone.de |
| 09:28.23 | jon_y | not to say mailing lists were free of them |
| 09:29.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | dang, I didn't have a look at freeyourphone since... years? |
| 09:29.35 | jon_y | what is that site about? |
| 09:45.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | err about openmoko Neo Freerunner and other "free" phones |
| 09:51.33 | jon_y | carriers don't want "free" phones |
| 09:51.38 | jon_y | they want iphones :( |
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| 10:07.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | carriers want business and thus customers |
| 10:08.36 | jon_y | do consumers want freedom? |
| 10:08.45 | jon_y | that's a hard question |
| 10:09.32 | jon_y | probably not, choices are hard |
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| 10:15.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, quite obviously many (most?) of them prefer "free" services like fb/twitter/watsap/gmail crap over freedom |
| 10:16.16 | kerio | well |
| 10:16.25 | kerio | if you don't mind the privacy invasion, gmail is pretty fucking awesome, to be fair |
| 10:17.22 | jon_y | kerio: at least I get to use gnupg to pre-encrypt first |
| 10:17.47 | jon_y | I'm still waiting one day when a webservice will say "No encryption allowed" |
| 10:17.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | a friend of mine used to attend each and every competition he could find, and then complained about all the spam snailmail and email he received |
| 10:19.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | jon_y: hah, dream on! I heard they support encryption now - *serverside* via web frontend X-P |
| 10:19.42 | jon_y | kind of defeats the point entirely |
| 10:19.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | actually e.g web.de does that since ~10 years |
| 10:20.18 | jon_y | doesn't that mean they have your private key? |
| 10:20.30 | kerio | jon_y: why does that defeat the purpose? what purpose is it defeating? |
| 10:20.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, they create it for you ;-P |
| 10:20.54 | kerio | assuming you trust the service, that is |
| 10:21.15 | jon_y | kerio: the whole idea of offering encryption when they can read it too |
| 10:23.32 | jon_y | also, unencrypted over the air transmission |
| 10:23.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | yup |
| 10:23.50 | kerio | i assume you have https to your webmail |
| 10:23.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | or poorly encrypted by SSL |
| 10:24.05 | jon_y | government has certs |
| 10:24.30 | jon_y | why do you need to encrypt it, comrade? |
| 10:25.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | the snoop-now-decrypt-later approach is pretty effective for SSL |
| 10:25.52 | jon_y | definitely need httpss |
| 10:26.05 | jon_y | asymetrical rather than symmetrical |
| 10:26.28 | jon_y | each "session" uses a different set of keys |
| 10:26.45 | jon_y | then again, it sounds like ballroom dancing |
| 10:26.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | there's a means for that in SSL, but nobody uses it |
| 10:27.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | except google ;-P |
| 10:27.17 | jon_y | they do? |
| 10:30.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | Perfect Forward Secrecy |
| 10:33.06 | jon_y | is it possible to do this with standard apache setup? |
| 10:34.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://wstaw.org/m/2013/09/05/plasma-desktopZj3743.png |
| 10:36.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | openssl s_client -connect wiki.maemo.org:80 |
| 10:36.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | openssl s_client -connect wiki.maemo.org:443 |
| 10:37.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | Cipher : .*DHE.* |
| 10:40.07 | jon_y | ok, encryption cipher selection? |
| 10:40.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://wstaw.org/m/2013/09/05/plasma-desktopqi3743.png <- list of browsers vs "supports PFS" |
| 10:44.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | fb, twitter, yahoo, ebay, paypal -> no DiffieHellman |
| 10:44.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | aka PFS |
| 10:44.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | MS as well not really. Google though full support |
| 10:45.29 | kerio | Cipher : DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA |
| 10:45.34 | kerio | default nginx config :D |
| 10:45.42 | kerio | dem russians |
| 10:45.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | DH == DiffieHellman == PFS |
| 10:46.25 | jon_y | ok |
| 10:46.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | chrome shows encryption used, search for *DH* |
| 10:46.37 | jon_y | here's my own server ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 |
| 10:46.44 | jon_y | is that good? |
| 10:46.46 | kerio | eyup |
| 10:46.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | DH is good |
| 10:47.04 | jon_y | ok |
| 10:47.17 | kerio | what does the E stand for? |
| 10:47.20 | kerio | ephemeral? |
| 10:47.20 | jon_y | basically no change needed |
| 10:47.26 | jon_y | no idea :) |
| 10:47.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | nfc |
| 10:47.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | aah eliptical |
| 10:47.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | elyptical? |
| 10:48.03 | kerio | nah, that's "EC" |
| 10:48.14 | kerio | for ellyptic curve |
| 10:48.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | *shrug* |
| 10:48.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep |
| 10:48.42 | kerio | yeah, E stands for ephemeral |
| 10:48.54 | jon_y | btw, windows still hate DAV+SSL on win7 |
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| 10:50.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | ephemeral |
| 10:50.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | meh he beats me |
| 10:52.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | NB you can check all services using SSL with the above commandline |
| 10:52.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | just pick the port of your choice |
| 10:54.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://wstaw.org/m/2013/09/05/plasma-desktopkO3743.png <- check of some popular service providers (German focus) |
| 11:05.50 | FatPhil | DocScrutinizer05: I meant the last kernel driver using the modem resource turns off the lights. Some of that's automatic, such as the clock tree framework. The last thing using the McSAAB bus will reduce the usage count to 0 as it exits, and the bus' clock will be disabled, and its parents if possible. |
| 11:06.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | would be nice, but doesn't work this way with modem afaik |
| 11:07.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | layering |
| 11:07.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | th eprotocol to shutdown modem is 2 layers above the phy |
| 11:09.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | after all it's "far end", the kernel driver could only shut down the OMAP interface block |
| 11:10.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | kernel doesn't know shit about "AT" |
| 11:10.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | AT+POFF, AT+CFUN=0 |
| 11:11.02 | kerio | no fun huh |
| 11:11.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure, BB5 uses ISI, but the idea stays the same |
| 11:12.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | you can't teach the tty kernel driver to display a "I'm offline" message on the vt100 |
| 11:13.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | your shell could do that, on receiving SIGHUP, before shutting down and closing dev/tty |
| 11:14.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | for modem that's libisi |
| 11:14.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | or even higher |
| 11:15.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | SHR for example literally suspends APE and thus shuts down tty to modem completely. Modem lives on happily and sends a signal via a special GPIO line when some message pending, to wake up APE |
| 11:16.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | you even have that concept in age old RS232: RI |
| 11:17.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | RingIndicator |
| 11:17.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | the ancient days' WOL |
| 11:25.33 | jon_y | what's wrong with RS232? simple 2 wire protocol was pretty nice |
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| 11:33.09 | merlin1991 | argh rs232 |
| 11:33.27 | merlin1991 | kernel interface for that is driving me mental |
| 11:35.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | who said sth wrong? |
| 11:36.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | and RS232 is not 2 wire at all |
| 11:36.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | more like 9 wire |
| 11:36.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | 7 maybe |
| 11:36.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | or 19 |
| 11:38.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | 13 actually |
| 11:38.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rs232#Signals |
| 11:40.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | ok, you could argue that virtually nothing which is working anymore supports secondary channel |
| 11:40.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | then it's 8-wire |
| 11:41.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | jon_y: however what I refered to been simply this: >>Ring Indicator' (RI), is a signal sent from the modem to the terminal device. It indicates to the terminal device that the phone line is ringing. In many computer serial ports, a hardware interrupt is generated when the RI signal changes state.<< |
| 11:47.01 | merlin1991 | DocScrutinizer05: I've seen a lot of 2 wire "rs232" |
| 11:47.12 | merlin1991 | ie garmin gps recievers send there data over that |
| 11:47.21 | merlin1991 | s/there/their/ |
| 11:50.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's not RS232 though, that's *using* rs232 |
| 11:51.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | ok, jon_y never said RS232 *is* 2-wire, actually |
| 11:53.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | you could call 2-wire low-voltage rs232 as well 20mA-tty |
| 11:54.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | actually it resembles 20mA more than it's similar to RS232 |
| 11:55.59 | jon_y | DocScrutinizer05: iirc rs232 refers to the old 12V signaling protocol |
| 11:56.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | since 20mA-tty actually is a 2-wire, and voltage levels are not up to spec for both lv-rs232 and lv-20mA |
| 11:56.15 | jon_y | I can't remember what the others are called |
| 11:56.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | rs485 for example |
| 11:56.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | rs422? |
| 11:56.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | there are several |
| 11:56.53 | jon_y | I mean they could talk to each other provided you have some voltage buffer in between |
| 11:57.18 | jon_y | all have start/stop bits |
| 11:57.25 | jon_y | work over 2 wire rx/tx |
| 11:58.08 | FatPhil | DocScrutinizer05: In that case the last user-space app to use the modem functionality should turn out the lights on the modem, and then turn out the lights on the kernel modules. |
| 11:58.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rs232#Related_standards |
| 11:58.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep |
| 11:58.37 | jon_y | of course, this assume both side talk at about the same clock freq |
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| 12:26.08 | ShadowJK | I remember MeegoCE on N900 used significants amount of power also *after* shutting down the phone :) |
| 12:26.52 | jon_y | after? how? |
| 12:29.30 | ShadowJK | it didn't turn off everything before switching off cpu |
| 12:29.52 | jon_y | maybe ARM should have ACPI states instead |
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| 14:19.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | ShadowJK: yeah, but stskeeps always thought they could take care about power management "later", first get the system working. Seems i'm right this concept doesn't fly |
| 14:21.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | much like openmoko thought they could take care about proper user account management later, and just got for root-only openembedded shit for a start. Also didn't pan out |
| 14:22.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | untill this very day most openmoko distros have root-only config |
| 14:23.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | and nobody ever will do the fancy to fix all the permission issues that would make it break *epically* when introducing real non-root users |
| 14:23.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | apps accessing /sys/* just like pfff |
| 14:24.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | all sorts of files either world readable or only by root |
| 14:25.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | an abomination |
| 14:25.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | and pretty much the same happened to meego re PM |
| 14:28.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | "but! but! we DO have only ONE user!" BWAHAHA |
| 14:29.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | I can see ~50 distinct "users" on my PC and that has no interactive user account but mine |
| 14:31.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | likewise you never get the whole peripherals PM sorted when you start with a flawed API |
| 14:31.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | and flawed paradigms at large |
| 14:34.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | like "last one shuts down the light" (decrement use counter) won't really meet embedded needs when the sensor or whatever peripheral you are talking to is properly event/IRQ driven |
| 14:34.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | you need a whole new API paradigm to account for that |
| 14:36.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | so *first* define proper PM-compliant APIs, only *then* even _start_ implementing processes/apps using those APIs |
| 14:36.35 | kerio | DocScrutinizer05: fwiw, a lot of processes don't need explicit power management |
| 14:36.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah fwiw |
| 14:37.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's never processes that need PM, it's the hardware that does |
| 14:37.28 | kerio | no, i mean |
| 14:38.01 | kerio | if you do async I/O and your UI toolkit is sane, you wouldn't drain a handheld's battery |
| 14:38.06 | kerio | when not in use, at least |
| 14:38.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | and how do you handle e.g. GPS? |
| 14:38.36 | kerio | qt mobility :P |
| 14:38.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | ROTFL |
| 14:38.49 | kerio | i'm just saying |
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| 14:39.02 | kerio | if your code is littered with spin locks, the problem is not that you're going to drain my battery |
| 14:39.14 | kerio | the problem is that you're breathing my air |
| 14:39.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | qt mobility has exactly ZILCH concept to define how exact, how frequent, how urgent your "fix" shall be |
| 14:39.44 | kerio | is there a standard gps api in linux? |
| 14:39.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | no |
| 14:40.22 | kerio | but gpsd is developed by ESR |
| 14:40.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | you need a proper middleware to handle such stuff |
| 14:41.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | userland apps request certain services of a certain quality (or whatever other properties/attributes) at the middleware. Middleware's job is to aggregate/consolidate thos requests and transform it into proper management of resources |
| 14:42.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | QtM completely ignored that, initially (and for many sensors still does) |
| 14:43.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | on maemo for example you got liblocation that does a rather decent job as middleware |
| 14:43.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | of course I prefer a more general concept like FSO |
| 14:44.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://www.freesmartphone.org// |
| 14:45.30 | kerio | "It offers DBus-APIs all over the place" |
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| 14:52.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, unlike LIBlocation |
| 14:55.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | btw: http://gypsy.freedesktop.org/wiki/ |
| 15:08.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | and http://gypsy.freedesktop.org/why-not-gpsd.html |
| 15:20.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | I can't state honestly that I been involved in development of FSO (only some peer review and design discussions), but I consider it a worthwhile thing to look into and use whenever possible |
| 15:21.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | phonet folks in their hybris and arrogance rejected any cooperation, blaming FSO for allegedly just being a glorified AT interface to GSM |
| 15:22.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | in the end I think this attribute fits perfectly to phonet itself |
| 15:23.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | see BT tethering, for example |
| 15:25.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: who or what is "ESR"? |
| 15:32.23 | kerio | Eric S. Raymond |
| 15:41.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | whoever is that |
| 15:41.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | should I know him? |
| 15:41.53 | kerio | a university dropout who wrote The Cathedral and the Bazaar |
| 15:42.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | umm |
| 15:42.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://gypsy.freedesktop.org/why-not-gpsd.html is a nice read |
| 15:42.27 | kerio | yeah, i read it |
| 15:42.45 | kerio | makes sense |
| 15:43.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | NB FSO is using org.freedesktop.gypsy |
| 15:43.01 | kerio | i still don't like dbus, but i guess that it's the least worse IPC |
| 15:43.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | ack |
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| 15:43.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | dbus is an abomination, but alas the only thing we got |
| 15:44.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | did you know that timeout is hardcoded in dbus? :-O |
| 15:45.15 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: hmm? what timeout |
| 15:45.17 | freemangordon | ? |
| 15:45.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | some timeout when using sync calls, I guess |
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| 15:46.04 | freemangordon | where did you get that from? afaik you pass the timeout as a parameter |
| 15:46.30 | freemangordon | is going to check |
| 15:46.33 | FatPhil | "Don't Use Malloc"? WTF |
| 15:46.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, it seems I've seen that being mentioned some time ago, and that for embedded it had to get tweked from 30s to 2 min, or the other way around |
| 15:47.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | ROTFL, yeah |
| 15:47.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | ESR |
| 15:48.00 | kerio | to be fair, if you only need a static amount of memory... |
| 15:48.03 | FatPhil | I know the javaloons say "memory allocation is far too important to risk letting the programmer have control", and greybeard C-ites say "memory allocation is far too important to let it all be handled automatically", but I think I'm going to invent a new twist |
| 15:48.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | ome years ago there even was a *nasty* bug in all async calls of dbus, that seems was rather hard to fix |
| 15:48.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | I for one think some of the bugs in sbus still hide there and show every now and then |
| 15:49.04 | FatPhil | "memory allocation is far too important to let fucknut programmers take control of it". And I thikn I've now found those fucknuts. |
| 15:49.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | dbus* |
| 15:49.23 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: hmm, http://dbus.freedesktop.org/doc/api/html/group__DBusConnection.html#ga8d6431f17a9e53c9446d87c2ba8409f0 |
| 15:49.31 | FatPhil | dbus had some horrific O(n) or worse behaviour a few years ago |
| 15:49.34 | freemangordon | FatPhil: where, you made me curious |
| 15:49.53 | FatPhil | DocS's gpsd link |
| 15:49.59 | kerio | O(n) is fairly good |
| 15:50.01 | kerio | i like O(n) |
| 15:50.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: nfc then, maybe it's in some libdbusglib or whatever |
| 15:50.41 | FatPhil | O(n) effort to achieve O(1) work is fucking awful |
| 15:51.17 | kerio | php has a library function to compute a greedy estimation of the distance between two strings in Om(n^3) |
| 15:51.25 | kerio | the textbook exact calculation is O(n^2) |
| 15:51.47 | FatPhil | Dbus was *clearly* (from an algorithmist's perspective) designed from the ground up to not be scalable. |
| 15:52.05 | FatPhil | Yet its selling point was that it was supposed to be scalable |
| 15:52.34 | FatPhil | Ipso facto, it's designed and implemented by people who don't know what they're talking about. |
| 15:52.44 | FatPhil | Not a good sign. |
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| 15:53.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | Mickey Lauer (architect of FSO) more than one time moaned "I'm going to write by own IPC now, nuke d-bus from the surface of God's great earth" |
| 15:54.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | due to the aforemantioned bug, fso was not using async anywhere for quite some time, which of course made life a lot easier ;-) |
| 15:56.13 | freemangordon | Pali: hmm, why is AVS enabled on your linux-n900 tree? |
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| 15:58.43 | freemangordon | hmm, mayde it is time to move CSSU to github, gitorious is simply unuisable :( |
| 15:58.47 | freemangordon | *maybe |
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| 16:04.35 | freemangordon | Pali: https://gitorious.org/linux-n900/linux-n900/source/d5da1f5357345ad270a491ce285c78dcf901a7ff:arch/arm/configs/rx51_defconfig#L318 |
| 16:08.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmm, can't spot it anymore, and coldn't a year ago either: http://irclog.netripper.com/openmoko-cdevel/2012/8/4/ |
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| 16:21.46 | dos1 | I remember that bug |
| 16:26.11 | ShadowJK | what's wrong with using malloc? I even use it on systems with 2k ram :s |
| 16:35.53 | FatPhil | ShadowJK: my comment was in the context of http://gypsy.freedesktop.org/why-not-gpsd.html |
| 16:36.36 | dos1 | DocScrutinizer05: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=19796 |
| 16:36.37 | povbot_ | Bug 19796: was not found. |
| 16:37.07 | ShadowJK | In some ways they've got a point, in that over time for long running processes, heap fragmentation can get pretty bad |
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| 16:39.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | dos1: EXACTLY, how the heck did you manage to find this one? |
| 16:41.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | ShadowJK: solution: allocate your *static* vars during _init_ |
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| 16:41.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | the best of both concepts |
| 16:42.07 | dos1 | DocScrutinizer05: I recalled reading it on freedesktop bugzilla, so I just grepped my irc logs for freedesktop ;) |
| 16:42.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | hah! |
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| 16:48.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | NICE; still nit "fixed" |
| 16:48.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | not* |
| 16:50.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | I think it's a WONTFIX since evrybody got used to d-bus blowing chunks every now and then |
| 16:52.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | I frequently notice effects in KDE where it _clearly_ lost some message or event. Simply doesn't react on an event in the way it's supposed to. Not now and not after 30 minutes |
| 16:52.53 | dos1 | that's ridiculous... |
| 16:53.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm also rather sure d-bus is memleaking |
| 16:56.16 | dos1 | init systems on top of dbus starts to sound now like really great idea... |
| 16:56.35 | dos1 | I wonder how kdbus project is going on |
| 16:58.03 | merlin1991 | you mean the inkernel messaging system? |
| 16:58.56 | dos1 | yep |
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| 17:00.30 | merlin1991 | I pretty much heard nothing about it after the initial "we have a system for this already in the kernel" response |
| 17:00.48 | merlin1991 | didn't look for it though |
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| 17:04.32 | dos1 | I remember that systemd devs had big hopes for it |
| 17:05.02 | FatPhil | systemd devs had high hopes about kitchen sinks too |
| 17:05.38 | FatPhil | Eventually, the answer to the question "What OS do you run?" would be "systemd" |
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| 17:09.29 | kerio | fucking systemd |
| 17:09.31 | FatPhil | ShadowJK: one way around fragmentation is to give out handles to memory, rather than pointers. That way, a sufficiently intelligent allocator could optimise their location. (Which of course requires devs to lock and unlock around accesses, which history tells us is expecting too much from some developers) |
| 17:09.36 | kerio | iirc linus is a bit tired of poettering's shit |
| 17:10.26 | kerio | anyway, mkfs.ext4 -c is at 828 errors at 58% on this netbook's hd :s |
| 17:10.35 | FatPhil | Everyone's tired of it. However, he's no idiot. Plenty of what he says makes good sense. |
| 17:10.39 | ShadowJK | I remember when I had bash running inside xchat. My OS was IRC |
| 17:10.46 | kerio | i'm looking forward to the end of these bad blocks :s |
| 17:10.53 | kerio | ShadowJK: pffff |
| 17:10.57 | kerio | what a noob |
| 17:11.00 | FatPhil | My OS was emacs for a while |
| 17:11.02 | kerio | init=/usr/bin/emacs |
| 17:11.03 | freemangordon | FatPhil: couldn't that lock/unlock be done automatically for those who are lazy? or just sigsegv? |
| 17:11.17 | kerio | and then run bash inside ERC |
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| 17:11.50 | FatPhil | freemangordon: I wouldn't want to design such a system, and then roll it out in a high availability environment, put it that way. |
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| 17:12.29 | FatPhil | freemangordon: of course, it can be done in a language like C++, with polymorphism. |
| 17:12.56 | freemangordon | FatPhil: well, I always think C++. or rather C with classes :D |
| 17:13.09 | FatPhil | but then you have to auto-lock/unlock around every individual access which is teh suck |
| 17:13.48 | freemangordon | I am old enough to thing anything but C/C++ should be forbidden by the law inside kernel/low level libs/middleware |
| 17:13.49 | FatPhil | I have many years of being a C++ evangelist on my CV... Never touch the language mowadays. |
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| 17:15.12 | merlin1991 | freemangordon: but, but python? ;) |
| 17:16.36 | dos1 | C++ sucks :P |
| 17:17.02 | dos1 | "let's take C, add some nice things to it, but screw up many more" ;) |
| 17:17.38 | FatPhil | Totally agreed. |
| 17:18.55 | FatPhil | I was thinking of writing some performance-oriented highly-OO code, and looked around for an alternative to C++, and found Digital Mars D. |
| 17:19.55 | FatPhil | However, I looked away for about a year, and when I turned back, I noticed that the same fucking idiot who had introduced a megaton of shit into C++ had now started fucking up Digital Mars D too. |
| 17:20.08 | FatPhil | So that project is still on hold... |
| 17:21.09 | FatPhil | If you're introducing class schemas into a language, that you are deprecating only a couple of years later, then you are *dangerous* to the language. |
| 17:24.28 | freemangordon | merlin1991: what about python? |
| 17:25.05 | freemangordon | don't tell me you like the way you are forced to use tabs(or spaces), come on, this is ridiculous |
| 17:25.33 | merlin1991 | well the whitespace thingy is odd |
| 17:25.56 | merlin1991 | but my other likes outweight that |
| 17:26.30 | freemangordon | and is enough to make me don;t want to touch anything python with a stick |
| 17:26.40 | FatPhil | I've never looked at python closely enough to evaluate its other features |
| 17:26.48 | freemangordon | same here :) |
| 17:27.44 | FatPhil | Semantic meaning to lengths of runs of whitespace is such an absolute no-no, it should never have been written in the first place. |
| 17:28.04 | ShadowJK | Right now I'm happy when I get anything less silly than Siemen's "beginner's ladder" language. You graphically draw logic gates and connect them together. |
| 17:28.38 | FatPhil | I remember looking at the archives of the python programming yahoogroup once - it died out very quickly, as none of the members could post any code - it would all get mangled! |
| 17:28.59 | FatPhil | dataflow languages can be awesome |
| 17:30.07 | ShadowJK | I often end up "I wish I had a clock", then take a nand gate and connect the output to input, and then start constructing a cpu-like monstrosity but run out of gates before getting where I wanr |
| 17:30.10 | FatPhil | The best thing about that yahoogroup was that some people had replaced runs of initial whitespace with runs of periods in order to preserve the indentation. |
| 17:30.23 | ShadowJK | the hardware does 150 cycles per second! |
| 17:30.30 | FatPhil | stockholm syndrome |
| 17:30.35 | ShadowJK | rofl |
| 17:32.30 | ShadowJK | The only good thing about that siemens gear is that each unit has a beancounter friendly price of <200 euro, which is amazing for industrial automation kit |
| 17:33.49 | FatPhil | can't you get some Xylinx or Altera boards for less than that? |
| 17:34.06 | ShadowJK | boards, yeah |
| 17:35.11 | ShadowJK | but not with 10A 12-240V I/O drive strength and foolproofing against "hook up random wires to random terminals and see what happens"-electricians |
| 17:35.50 | FatPhil | Good point. |
| 17:36.14 | ShadowJK | this seems to be the common troubleshooting strategy when things stop working |
| 17:36.34 | ShadowJK | comes after hitting it wth a hammer and turning it off and then on again. |
| 17:36.48 | ShadowJK | sorry, I mean "percussive maintenance" |
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| 18:52.03 | kerio | c++ is just a bad idea overall |
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| 19:12.17 | freemangordon | kerio: yeah, python, java and .NET are waaay better :P |
| 19:12.40 | kerio | python is really good for smallish-to-medium-sized projects |
| 19:12.50 | kerio | java is excessively enterprisey |
| 19:12.52 | kerio | and .net is java |
| 19:13.00 | kerio | but made by microsoft |
| 19:13.12 | freemangordon | you mean it is bytecode? |
| 19:13.40 | kerio | it fits the same niche as java |
| 19:13.52 | kerio | aka enterprise programs |
| 19:14.35 | freemangordon | you mean "take the next moron from the street and make him developer" paradigm? |
| 19:14.49 | kerio | s/the street/India/ |
| 19:15.26 | freemangordon | but why, there are streets all over the world, and I doubt morons can only be found in India |
| 19:15.50 | kerio | i mean, java is kinda made to avoid too many issues caused by bad programmers |
| 19:15.52 | freemangordon | actually I am sure there are lots of the inside India |
| 19:16.06 | kerio | everything is strictly divided in small parts |
| 19:16.08 | freemangordon | *them outside |
| 19:16.36 | freemangordon | kerio: ever seen a very big project coded in java? |
| 19:17.01 | kerio | a bad programmer working in python or ruby will happily change builtins because they have copypasted a cool trick from stockoverflow |
| 19:17.13 | kerio | no, i have not |
| 19:17.18 | kerio | and i feel happier because of it |
| 19:18.21 | freemangordon | it is a nightmare to deal with the codebase. at least for me. It takes ages to find all the parent classes, all the method overwrites, etc |
| 19:18.35 | kerio | oh absolutely |
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| 20:13.51 | merlin1991 | nah .net isn't take the next moron |
| 20:14.00 | merlin1991 | but at the same time it is in some way |
| 20:16.02 | FatPhil | Much of it is laziness on the part of educators - they're just teaching whatever the current trend is, and the trend is driven my marketting. |
| 20:17.05 | FatPhil | And I say that as someone who's been on the teaching side of things |
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| 20:20.03 | merlin1991 | well tu vienna teaches java |
| 20:20.11 | merlin1991 | not exactly the latest marketing trend :D |
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| 23:02.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | TU, PAH! |
| 23:03.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | ETH Zurich maybe. Emphasis on "maybe" |
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