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| 03:02.43 | Estel_ | because having separate Board and Council bodies was perfectly fine idea, from the beginning, and trying to wanr about it was considered... trolling? |
| 03:02.50 | Estel_ | s/wanr/warn/ |
| 03:03.38 | Estel_ | more on topic for this channel: I'll be boring again about phone-ui, but why, oh why, is it ignoring portait/landscape locks (no matter if locked to portrait or landscape)? |
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| 03:04.24 | Estel_ | this shitty thing deciding to jump from landscape into portrait and/or back again is sole reason for my one and only situations of "missing calls due to phone becoming unresponsive", nothing else |
| 03:04.53 | Estel_ | not to mention fun situation when "accept" button become "reject" after landscape->potrait, or opposite |
| 03:05.18 | Estel_ | or more fun situations, when reject becomes accept + loudspeaker |
| 03:05.28 | Estel_ | that one is unlimited ammount of fun! |
| 03:05.43 | Estel_ | amount, even |
| 03:06.00 | Estel_ | probably ammo was freud'ish mistake here |
| 03:06.32 | Estel_ | is there any freakin way to force phone-ui during incoming calls to be always *either* landscape or portrait? |
| 03:06.44 | Estel_ | IDFC which one, just something constant |
| 03:07.12 | Estel_ | of course it hapilly ignores blacklist/whitelist on transitions.ini, too |
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| 03:49.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | uses phoneui-menu option |
| 03:49.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | since 5 years |
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| 07:31.31 | amiconn | Speaking about unresponsiveness... I wonder what's wrong with fennec |
| 07:31.45 | amiconn | It's not usable at all |
| 07:33.27 | amiconn | When starting, it takes about 30 seconds until the UI appears. But UI appearing doesn't mean it's usable. Starting to type a URL right away does nothing for about another minute or so. Only then it starts processing the input (letters appearing) - at the whopping speed of about one character per two seconds... |
| 07:34.08 | amiconn | That's with cssu-thumb and fennec 17 (thumb compiled), but all earlier versions I tried behaved the same (except 1.1 - that one was a little faster) |
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| 07:57.10 | Raimu | Fennec 1.1 ? |
| 08:03.45 | amiconn | More than two years ago iirc |
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| 14:09.23 | Pali | merlin1991, I got another build mail |
| 14:10.16 | merlin1991 | Pali: yep |
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| 14:10.25 | merlin1991 | and this time we have http://repository.maemo.org/community-testing/pool/fremantle/free/r/rtcom-messaging-ui-portrait/ |
| 14:10.27 | merlin1991 | :) |
| 14:10.42 | Pali | merlin1991, btw why are you trying to push version 1.0? it has version string bug |
| 14:10.57 | Pali | include 1.0-1 |
| 14:11.04 | merlin1991 | Pali: I'm repushing T7 |
| 14:11.16 | merlin1991 | since the maemo.org repo is stuck at T6 |
| 14:11.26 | merlin1991 | new stuff after we have a proper repo again |
| 14:12.01 | Pali | so after migration maemo.org lose some packages? |
| 14:13.11 | merlin1991 | yes testing is @ T6 and stable is at 4.1 |
| 14:13.41 | Pali | ok, so you only imported same packages which was already there before migration... |
| 14:13.52 | merlin1991 | yes |
| 14:13.55 | Pali | did you used your mirror? (to have same md5sum of packages)? |
| 14:14.16 | merlin1991 | I saved the packages locally when uploading |
| 14:14.23 | merlin1991 | I'm uploading the very same build :) |
| 14:14.30 | kerio | oh, is community-testing built? |
| 14:14.43 | Pali | so md5sum will be different as on your mirror? |
| 14:14.44 | kerio | i didn't know that |
| 14:15.02 | merlin1991 | Pali: md5sums will be exactly the same, those are the files I uploaded last time |
| 14:15.20 | Pali | then ok :-) |
| 14:15.24 | Pali | merlin1991: and another quesion it is possible to put CSSU repo to maemo package interface? http://maemo.org/packages/repository/ |
| 14:15.39 | merlin1991 | possible yes, how todo that though I have nfc |
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| 15:19.25 | kerio | DocScrutinizer05: The result can be read in 0x5f-5e. The result is a signed number with an LSB value of 1.225 μV. |
| 15:19.39 | kerio | what do you think this means? 16-bit two's complement value? |
| 15:21.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure, that's a signed int16, with unit "1,225 uV" |
| 15:23.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | you can simply cast to int16 |
| 15:23.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | typecast |
| 15:37.22 | kerio | one does not simply typecast to int16 in python :P |
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| 15:45.31 | merlin1991 | kerio: how do you read in the data aka where is it stored? |
| 15:45.51 | kerio | merlin1991: two ints, for high and low byte |
| 15:45.59 | merlin1991 | yeah but HOW |
| 15:46.14 | kerio | wut |
| 15:46.18 | kerio | what do you mean how? |
| 15:46.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | i2cget(foo, bar) |
| 15:46.43 | kerio | eh, not quite |
| 15:46.51 | kerio | the python-smbus module isn't compiled in i2c-tools :( |
| 15:47.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | merlin1991: he reads from a register dump in /sys |
| 15:47.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | which is fubar in itself |
| 15:47.41 | kerio | hm, can i2cget read a signed value? |
| 15:47.43 | merlin1991 | well my main question is in which python datatype the stuff lands initally |
| 15:47.47 | kerio | merlin1991: int |
| 15:47.58 | merlin1991 | because depending on that you can use struct.* stuff to "typecast" |
| 15:48.08 | kerio | ew :< |
| 15:48.20 | kerio | to be fair, it's probably the most correct thing to do |
| 15:49.07 | kerio | except not quite, i'd have to convert the ints into a single string |
| 15:49.51 | merlin1991 | struct.unpack('something', struct.pack('ii', int1, int2)) |
| 15:50.21 | kerio | hm, python-smbus can't read "signed" values anyway |
| 15:50.35 | kerio | merlin1991: mmmmh |
| 15:50.47 | kerio | i have to say, i don't really like it :< |
| 15:51.05 | kerio | return ((cres + 0x8000) % 0x10000 - 0x8000) * 1.225 |
| 15:51.07 | merlin1991 | or just pacth pyhton-smbus :D |
| 15:51.08 | kerio | aww yea |
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| 15:53.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: that "2s-complement" looks rather nifty |
| 15:54.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | and - even worse - *correct* ;-P |
| 15:55.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | just wondering how sysfs registerdump will provide the 0x5f-5e |
| 15:56.02 | kerio | as separate registers |
| 15:56.14 | kerio | but i made my code completely agnostic |
| 15:56.26 | kerio | because it just does (high << 8 | low) |
| 15:56.35 | kerio | so if low is actually a word, and high is 0, it still works |
| 15:56.50 | kerio | (obviously you have to make sure that high is set to 0 if it's "missing") |
| 15:59.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | that all implies the register dump would actually provide that range |
| 15:59.23 | kerio | it does, i checked :) |
| 15:59.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | ugh |
| 16:00.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | could you hand me the bus,chip addr please? |
| 16:00.13 | kerio | "uV" is perfectly acceptable as a replacement for "µV", right? |
| 16:00.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | right |
| 16:00.23 | kerio | ~bq27k-detail |
| 16:00.24 | infobot | it has been said that bq27k-detail is http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/usr/local/sbin/bq27k-detail2 |
| 16:00.32 | kerio | ^ there |
| 16:00.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | sigh |
| 16:00.35 | kerio | :P |
| 16:00.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | thanks |
| 16:00.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | meh, then not |
| 16:00.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | too lazy |
| 16:01.02 | kerio | 2 0x55, apparently |
| 16:01.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep |
| 16:01.25 | kerio | anyway, even parsing that value is silly |
| 16:01.44 | kerio | because to do a board offset calibration, you must not use the battery |
| 16:01.54 | kerio | but you must use the battery to talk to bq27k |
| 16:02.33 | merlin1991 | when I set up my awesome I thought 2 screens with 4 virtual screens each should be enough, right? |
| 16:02.43 | merlin1991 | turns out I'll prob need 6 virtual screens each :D |
| 16:03.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://privatepaste.com/9059c48d09 FWIW |
| 16:05.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | any sysfs register dump should probably provide exactly same output, maybe truncated to significant range |
| 16:06.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://privatepaste.com/00ee601987 |
| 16:09.41 | kerio | DocScrutinizer05: are sysfs nodes supposed to be human-readable? |
| 16:10.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | err, on unix every file is supposed to be human-readable, except binaries and device-nodes |
| 16:10.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | so: generally yes |
| 16:11.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | optimized for parsing by shellscripts etc, but still human-readable |
| 16:11.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | AWESOME! -> watch --differences=cumulative -n 5 i2cdump -y 2 0x55 |
| 16:12.04 | kerio | neat |
| 16:13.39 | kerio | DocScrutinizer05: it's a whole new thing! :D http://privatepaste.com/33038b135e |
| 16:16.05 | kerio | instead of using a Bq27kList i could just make something that calls i2cget when values are requested |
| 16:16.39 | kerio | caching the values, obviously :) |
| 16:18.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | as expected: the range 0x30-0x6f has quite some interesting values |
| 16:19.50 | kerio | yeah but they're all internals |
| 16:24.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, exactly. That's why they're so interesting ;-) |
| 16:25.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm looking for a realtime clock of any kind, that must have a range of days at least |
| 16:26.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | also I'm looking for an internal "work copy" of eeprom config values like ILMD |
| 16:28.25 | kerio | it could also be interesting to write there |
| 16:28.29 | kerio | to see what happens |
| 16:32.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | write error |
| 16:32.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-P |
| 16:33.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | I just tried to enable EEPROM programming, but I'm too lazy to look up the correct sequence |
| 16:33.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | tried writing 1 to 0x6e |
| 16:34.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | which worked but didn't exactly change a thing |
| 16:34.24 | kerio | i2cset 2 0x55 0x6e `dd if=/dev/urandom bs=1 count=1` |
| 16:34.31 | kerio | repeat until enabled |
| 16:34.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | haha |
| 16:35.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | anyway cya l8r |
| 16:36.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | IroN900:~# i2cset -y 2 0x55 0x6e 0x01 |
| 16:36.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | IroN900:~# i2cset -y 2 0x55 0x76 0x2a |
| 16:36.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | Error: Write failed |
| 16:38.04 | kerio | DocScrutinizer05: you have to write 0xdd to enable eeprom writing |
| 16:38.16 | kerio | i2cset -y 2 0x55 0x6e 0xdd |
| 16:38.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | just in time to keep me from afk |
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| 16:38.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | IroN900:~# i2cset -y 2 0x55 0x6e 0xdd |
| 16:38.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | IroN900:~# i2cset -y 2 0x55 0x76 0x2a |
| 16:38.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | IroN900:~# |
| 16:39.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | 70: 2d 77 3c 6d 7b bb 2a 77 96 3a 38 89 43 2d 42 7c -w<m{?*w?:8?C-B| |
| 16:39.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | \o/ |
| 16:39.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | as expected |
| 16:39.43 | kerio | does bq27k work, in the meantime? |
| 16:39.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | probably sticky til next full reset |
| 16:40.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | it gone quite quiet |
| 16:40.31 | kerio | :( |
| 16:40.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | I.E. not much changes anymore |
| 16:41.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | IroN900:~# i2cset -y 2 0x55 0x6e 0x00 |
| 16:41.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | 0x76 back to 0x2d |
| 16:41.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | F*CK! |
| 16:41.45 | kerio | :( |
| 16:46.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | http://privatepaste.com/a95bce7093 (see ILMD, but also note that NUTTIN except 0x 60 61 64 66 is changing anymore in i2cdump) |
| 16:47.05 | kerio | DocScrutinizer05: full reset time? |
| 16:47.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | nah, as soon as I disable EEPROM prog it reverts to normal, incl ILMD |
| 16:47.43 | kerio | i see |
| 16:47.50 | kerio | have you tried reading the value? |
| 16:47.55 | kerio | ...yes you have |
| 16:48.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | dump is reading *all* values |
| 16:48.04 | kerio | hm, maybe reading it as a single byte matters? |
| 16:48.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | dunno |
| 16:48.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's sticky as long as prog mode |
| 16:49.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | so I don't think reading changes anything except for flashing EEPROM |
| 16:49.21 | kerio | ah what? python 2.5 didn't have str.format yet? |
| 16:49.23 | kerio | what the balls |
| 16:49.51 | kerio | DocScrutinizer05: if i had to guess, reading the value is setting some internal address pointer, to know what to program |
| 16:50.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep |
| 16:51.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | but since no Vpp, no programming at all |
| 16:53.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | disbaling prog by writing 0xdf (instead 0xdd) has same effect as writing 00 to same location |
| 16:54.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | disabling* |
| 16:54.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | waves and vanishes |
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| 19:28.46 | Estel_ | in the meantime, kerio, congratulate for sending your candidacy for Council! |
| 19:28.52 | kerio | :D |
| 19:28.59 | kerio | i doubt i'm a valid candidate though |
| 19:29.12 | Estel_ | You have my vote, which means that you will hate me, as it's equal to others stopping voting for you :P |
| 19:29.25 | Estel_ | seriously though, yes, you're valid candidate |
| 19:29.29 | kerio | no karma |
| 19:29.40 | Estel_ | have you read annoucement. :P |
| 19:29.44 | kerio | nope |
| 19:29.51 | Estel_ | if your account is more than 3 months old, you're valid |
| 19:30.07 | Estel_ | due to karma being not calculated properly |
| 19:31.00 | kerio | yay |
| 19:31.18 | Estel_ | it means half our spambots are egligle too, but, whatever |
| 19:32.09 | Estel_ | now we *only*need voting to make Council members = Board and say goodbye to that ridicolous nonsense which is happening around board<->council contacts |
| 19:32.16 | Estel_ | or board<->anyone else |
| 19:32.30 | kerio | board is a legal entity, though |
| 19:32.48 | Estel_ | sure, we need to vote for people that will represent us in legal entity |
| 19:33.19 | Estel_ | one guy who isn't sure if we're able to vote him out + one guy who doesn't know what maemo is and want new maemo products to compete with android is enough |
| 19:33.23 | Estel_ | for +- eternity |
| 19:34.10 | Estel_ | not to mention both being not appointed by voting, actually |
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| 20:39.06 | fw190 | merlin1991: if this wasn't reported. I did a small reflash and had today in the mornig latest T installed and reading that you uploaded the T7.2 I started to update but the system is missing hildon desktop and ke-recv |
| 20:39.40 | merlin1991 | *missing* had and ke-recv? |
| 20:40.55 | fw190 | hildon desktop (>=1:2.2.146-2) |
| 20:41.07 | fw190 | that is what it wants |
| 20:41.33 | fw190 | and ke-recv (>=3.19-15.7) |
| 20:41.41 | merlin1991 | oh I just noticed I have ke-recv and h-d in subfolders inside my T7 folder |
| 20:41.53 | fw190 | ;) |
| 20:41.54 | merlin1991 | and ofc an scp *.deb *tar.gz ... didn#t pick that up |
| 20:42.15 | fw190 | don't knwo what you say but good that you know how to fix it ;) |
| 20:42.32 | fw190 | anyway will report fi all will go well |
| 20:44.14 | merlin1991 | fw190: I basically had all T7 packages in a folder and just uploaded that again, not realizing that ke-recv and hildon-desktop were a layer deeper in their own subfolders, so didn't get uploaded |
| 20:44.30 | fw190 | ah ok |
| 20:45.22 | merlin1991 | I've uploaded them now, should arrive in the repo within 5 mins |
| 20:46.02 | merlin1991 | yup both are imported |
| 20:46.29 | merlin1991 | update the catalogues and you should be ready to upgrade |
| 20:53.34 | fw190 | merlin1991: nice and shiny T7.2 on my N900. Thank you ;) |
| 21:01.54 | freemangordon_ | merlin1991: what? we have CSSU repos? yay :) |
| 21:02.08 | merlin1991 | freemangordon_: yep we have them again :) |
| 21:02.28 | freemangordon_ | cool |
| 21:48.15 | Estel_ | kerio, could you, please, as candidate for Council (and, with high probability, elected Councilor, soon) show support here?: |
| 21:48.16 | Estel_ | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1336077#post1336077 |
| 21:48.58 | Estel_ | before anyone ask - no, it's not about karma whore'ing, not to mention that it isn't calculated now. It's just that I got strong feeling that it is *very* needed now, or something good may collapse and be forgotten. |
| 21:49.17 | Estel_ | DocScrutinizer05, you may like to see it and respons, you're tech staff head, yep? |
| 21:49.22 | kerio | i'm not convinced at all that SD69 means well |
| 21:49.48 | Estel_ | doesnmt matter, I'm sure you can, for a time being, convince yourself to act like he mean well |
| 21:50.03 | Estel_ | I'm equally convinced that he doesn't thing others mean well, it's not important now. |
| 21:50.14 | Estel_ | either we unite, or die, that is. |
| 21:51.12 | Estel_ | BTW I'm pretty sure, that it would be hard to find someone in community, who actually doesn't mean well for Maemo. Practical results are different thing, but chain of blaming doesn't make it any better |
| 21:51.56 | Estel_ | encouraging others by threating their work and time involved with respect (even if results are not saisfying, sometimes) is only way to motivate them in community-driven project |
| 21:52.46 | Estel_ | I'm pretty sure that we could get miracolously, positively surprised at collaboration improvement, if we start to obligatory assume that everyone doing something for Maemo (volotuneery) mean well. |
| 21:53.19 | Estel_ | ...so people could start focusing on achieving set goals, instead of standing at defending position from beginning |
| 21:58.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | Estel_: there's one single thing needed: HiFo BoD finally finds time for a meeting. Since 8 weeks or so Woody been pressing and suggesting dates, others (mainly Rob) came like "I'm busy this week", "we don't need this now, we should first do a amicus letter to Google-vs-Oracle case" and whatnot else. And Rob has not a single time uttered he'd support the re-election of BoD that been demanded by community, council, heck even the |
| 21:58.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | other two BoD members |
| 21:58.57 | Estel_ | ok, ok, I get it, and I'm not saying that you're not right |
| 21:59.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | there's no timetable or todo list to write up, all that alreeady happened |
| 21:59.10 | Estel_ | but now, please, lets forget whose faul it is, no matter at which side of fence we sit |
| 21:59.30 | Estel_ | lets really act like CPU's -> task given, task done by available means, or error reported |
| 21:59.43 | Estel_ | + lets report errors in linux way, i.e. informative ones ;) |
| 22:00.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | -E_HiFo_fails_to_have_meeting_since_2_months |
| 22:00.22 | Estel_ | I know you've already written what is needed, but it was in between of so much accusations (I'm not talking if they were right or notj, that only most dedicated readers got it |
| 22:01.07 | Estel_ | so please, write like I suggested, sparing any side comments why we need it (so even someone who sit under the rock for 4 months) will understand it, and how fast we need it |
| 22:01.15 | Estel_ | what they should discuss/do at that meeting |
| 22:01.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | rob's answer: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1336073&postcount=54 |
| 22:01.37 | Estel_ | and lets prepare a roadmap for "soon to be urgent" things too, and even those further ahead |
| 22:02.17 | Estel_ | do you really thing that it's parseable for anyone else than you, me, and maybe freemangordon and qwazix? this thread is a mess, conrectes could be summed up in 3 posts |
| 22:02.25 | Estel_ | thats why I've written about red line |
| 22:02.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | that roadmap already exists, maybe not visible for everybody, but woody posted *several* mails to HiFo about urgent things to get done and proposing meeting dates |
| 22:02.57 | Estel_ | I understand it may be hard to assume that others mean well, when you're inside this lockout-situation mess, very frustrating. I know something about that |
| 22:03.09 | Estel_ | but if we won't hit reset button now, it will become even less manageable |
| 22:03.15 | Estel_ | OK |
| 22:03.30 | Estel_ | so lets do those roadmaps in public, that thread looks like ok place for it |
| 22:03.37 | Estel_ | could be wikidi'zeed too, later |
| 22:03.46 | Estel_ | of course without ironic comments and accusations |
| 22:04.06 | Estel_ | even single irony spoils whole posts, at this level of frustration involved, it looks like that |
| 22:04.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | I think another thread would be more appropriate: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=89280 |
| 22:04.19 | Estel_ | your "partners" stop reading merit, and jump into bashing that irony |
| 22:04.50 | Estel_ | OK, but that thread, even by it's title, mean war, not collaboration |
| 22:05.04 | Estel_ | think for a while "infra migration, who kills maemo?" |
| 22:05.28 | Estel_ | you can be even right about it, I doesn't care at this point, all I want is to have ALL people involved hit reset button |
| 22:05.48 | Estel_ | forget about past faults, and move on to collaboration with said carte blanche |
| 22:06.40 | Estel_ | even if you're right at accusations, bringing them NOW is equivalent to showing bad will, same apply for "other side". And we all mean well, don't we? |
| 22:07.29 | Estel_ | look, even guy like me deleted all accusing things from TMO signature. I'm sure all of you can do better and reset attitude |
| 22:16.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | what fucking accusations? |
| 22:19.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | I listed stuff that's pending and not getting done due to HiFo not meeting |
| 22:19.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | I quoted one member who already thinks maemo is doomed |
| 22:20.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | I asked if HiFo really is wondering where from all that bad feelings come |
| 22:22.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | and finally I actually asked if maybe Rob intentionally blocks any HiFo meeting, which indeed you could read as an accusation |
| 22:26.50 | Estel_ | oh cmon, you know what I mean, even thread title implies whose fault it is. |
| 22:27.22 | Estel_ | The idea is to switch into informative-only collaboration, turning fail/blame/they're doing it wrong factor off |
| 22:27.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | see rob's answer, I don't even get what he's after, with "hard reset of MMC rules" |
| 22:28.05 | Estel_ | and I don't mean it's your fault either, I just think it become like those motocyclers riding to head crash |
| 22:28.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | I don't see any option for any post from my side |
| 22:28.17 | Estel_ | I also don't get mmc reset, I suppose it was CC rules reset |
| 22:29.01 | Estel_ | frankly, it doesn't matter if you see it or not, and if youmre right about it or not - it's only about *future* posts and communication. No irony, no blaming, no anything, or we won't get anywhere |
| 22:29.23 | Estel_ | if you haven't done it before (blaming, irony etcj, the better, you will have easier time restraining yourself from doing so, now. |
| 22:30.10 | Estel_ | my request is to skip all (doubtfully) "decorative" things, and work on sole barebone merit, with addition of "everyone else involved means well" assumption. |
| 22:30.32 | Estel_ | I don't see other way to have Maemo community infrastructure maintained in *!ong* run |
| 22:31.25 | Estel_ | at this point hostility is so huge, that even single irony/implied accusatio/whatever spoils whole meritoric discussion/work |
| 22:32.28 | *** join/#maemo-ssu M4rtinK (~M4rtinK@mail.melf.eu) |
| 22:32.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | I don't give a shit. |
| 22:36.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | Rob posted clearly that he's straying away from anything anybody thought HiFo would be constituted like, by his "open letter2 that he for sure posted without placet by the other BoD members: http://hildonfoundation.org/an-update-on-hildon-foundation-council-and-maemo-community-council/ - read that and you see clearly that Rob is not willing to cooperate with Maemo community (council), is determined to ignore the re-election request, |
| 22:36.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | and is (imho) spreading paradox nonsense about "there's no HiFo council yet since there's no rules how to vote that HiFo council" The point is that this paragraph he refers to says that HiFo council is the one to determine those rules for elections, which for a logically thinking human makes it utterly clear that maemo community council is and ever been meant to be HiFo council as well |
| 22:39.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | and since other two BoD are in favour of a re-election and would overrule him and initiate the election of BoD and accept MCC as HFC, my idea that he blocks meeting for a reason isn't that farfetched |
| 22:40.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | HE is the lawyer, so HE knows how to read the bylaws. Anybody not agreeing on HIS way to read and interpret them is clearly the enemy and he's obviously willing to go damn far and for sure ignoring any good-will-alternatives to make sure HIS view will be the one that rules in the end |
| 22:41.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | if he was filled with good will, he might agree on re-elections within 0.2s |
| 22:48.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | then read shit like this: >>Although the Bylaws state that the Hildon Foundation Council is to be determined by an election of the Hildon membership, they do not state how the first Hildon Foundation Council is to be determined.<< WTF is "Hildon membership"??? |
| 22:53.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | and what the F*CK is Rob thinking is the legitimation of BoD when they failed to establish the single "controlling entity" that could keep the HiFo BoD from going mad batshit - the HFC? Failed for err 5 months now? 6 months? and when community calls for a BoD re-election since they are unhappy with the way BoD performs, then the BoD shows community and and the only faintly resembing to HFC entity (MCC) the finger and laughs: "There' |
| 22:53.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | s no HFC, and if you're not happy with that and ask for re-election of BoD, TOO BAD since we're the only ones that could establish such HFC and so nobody can call for re-election of BoD" |
| 22:54.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | Estel_: please bark up another tree |
| 22:55.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's not me acting any silly here |
| 22:55.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | and the only thing we need from HiFo is that they do their damn job and finally sign a few contracts |
| 22:56.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | for the rest, honestly when they/Rob ignore us/council, then why should I bother about them and what they allow or forbid? |
| 22:57.11 | Estel_ | I don't think anyone cares at this point, who was acting silly and whoe fault it is, the thing is what we will do now (in future). Even if youmre completely right to the less significant bit, discussions about it are so messed up with bigger or lesser flames, that actually, only close group of ~ 5 people understand whats going on |
| 22:57.53 | Estel_ | if we can start talking only about merit, skipping all that "it's his/her/it's fault", assuming others mean well, we can get past this quite quickly. |
| 22:58.28 | Estel_ | If NOT, for example, if one party will (again) deny to cooperate, everyone will understand why there is legitimation to peacefully overthrow them |
| 22:58.29 | *** join/#maemo-ssu Sc0rpius (~naikel@190.79.197.57) |
| 22:59.03 | Estel_ | now it is a lockout, as legally, they're people that signed foundation. If it won't work, OK, lets choose other people to register another foundation, maybe somewhere else. |
| 22:59.13 | kerio | we don't have time |
| 22:59.15 | Estel_ | but for now, we must really assume all mean well |
| 22:59.21 | kerio | no we musn't |
| 22:59.29 | kerio | mustn't |
| 22:59.49 | Estel_ | how much time it require to tune brain cells into "others mean well" and start cooperating? if it won't work out in few days, we will have no other choice than re-do creating foundation |
| 23:00.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | cooperating on GODDAMN *WHAT*? |
| 23:00.35 | Estel_ | *shrug* I think every wasted potential of some volounteer, no matter how youd don't like it, is a pity. I think community could use lawyer at hifo, if he would cooperate |
| 23:00.47 | Estel_ | on achieving things neede,d like signing those damn contracts |
| 23:01.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | and would you pretty please suggest how me or anybody else in council or community could _cooperate_ with HiFo for that? |
| 23:01.25 | Estel_ | I think that at psychological level, that whole hostility is main reason why hifo went so alienated from rest of community. |
| 23:01.29 | Estel_ | sure |
| 23:01.32 | Estel_ | i did in that post |
| 23:01.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | hahaha |
| 23:01.51 | Estel_ | write that damn things again, without any blaming/irony/whatever (if yoiu haven't already) |
| 23:01.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | ok |
| 23:02.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | HiFo went alienated by community |
| 23:02.10 | Estel_ | if they won't answer in 48 hours, we can assume we need to skip them |
| 23:02.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | been there done that, 3 times now |
| 23:02.27 | Estel_ | if they answer stating some merits, we may cooperate |
| 23:02.56 | Estel_ | sure, amongst 6456765 worthless posts full with blaming, accusations etc (even if valid) |
| 23:03.06 | Estel_ | not necessary yours |
| 23:03.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm not going to repeat stuff like a silly parrot |
| 23:03.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | Rob is no idiot |
| 23:04.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, not that kind of idiot |
| 23:04.05 | Estel_ | well, whatever, I suggested what I think is most sane (hard reset of attitude, forgetting ,ast faults, startong to cooperate freshly, and if that doesn't work out, forking foundation) |
| 23:04.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | bullshit |
| 23:04.33 | Estel_ | you don't understand that sometimes repeating same thing in different atmosphere is a hell of difference |
| 23:04.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | we're absolutely fine with 2/3 of HiFo |
| 23:04.53 | Estel_ | ok, you agree, that we need some people to be legally BoD for foundation, to sign some papers? |
| 23:05.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | you go to shit at least 2 times a week? |
| 23:05.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | what's that now, jeopardy? |
| 23:05.33 | Estel_ | now you realize that failing to estabilish meaningful cooperations in place of current fubar = estabilishing foundation from scratch? |
| 23:05.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | stop telling shit |
| 23:06.04 | Estel_ | please, keep it civil and on topic, I'm not planning to answer any queries about shitting ;) |
| 23:06.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | again |
| 23:06.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | you go to shit at least 2 times a week? |
| 23:06.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | err |
| 23:06.23 | Estel_ | ok, if you have other ideas how to solve situation, present them in community mailing list |
| 23:06.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | we're absolutely fine with 2/3 of HiFo |
| 23:06.54 | Estel_ | who, legally, estabilished hifo? as person? |
| 23:07.11 | Estel_ | who got access to all papers and is legally able to sign contracts etc? |
| 23:07.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | there are 2 members in HiFo thinking we should have a re-election and at least 1, I think 2, are thinking that MCC == HFC |
| 23:07.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | there's one dude that disagrees and blocks meetings so the other 2 can't get stuff done |
| 23:07.51 | Estel_ | I know, but answer my questions from above, they're not rhetorical |
| 23:08.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | nope, sorry, I have more important stuff to do |
| 23:08.21 | Estel_ | I'm asking who, in most practical practice, can sign those damn papers, and who "keep" founding papers of hifo. |
| 23:08.31 | Estel_ | IIRC, it is SD69, correct me if I'm wrong. |
| 23:09.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | any of HiFo can sign the papers after a meeting where 2 of 3 vote for a certain individual |
| 23:09.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | to sign them |
| 23:09.32 | Estel_ | if I'm not wrong, it means either you settle compromise with him, or do damn foundation thing from scratch, in practice. And in such case, I don't necessary care if you (council) were right in that argument with him or not |
| 23:09.39 | Estel_ | OK |
| 23:09.47 | Estel_ | now we have sd69, rob, and who in hifo? |
| 23:09.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | and sorry, nfc what you mean by "keep founding papers" |
| 23:09.53 | merlin1991 | hm #maemo hmmm? |
| 23:10.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | EHH??? |
| 23:10.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | SD69 == Rob |
| 23:10.11 | Estel_ | who is legally responsible for foundation welfare I mean |
| 23:10.14 | Estel_ | by "keeping papers" |
| 23:10.18 | Estel_ | currently |
| 23:10.28 | Estel_ | merlin1991, would love soo, but I'm banned there, sorry ;) |
| 23:10.48 | Estel_ | DocScrutinizer05, sorry, I messed it |
| 23:10.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, I have to leave now. please discuss this with e.g. thedead1440 or kerio or freemangordon or... |
| 23:10.58 | Estel_ | I meant "we have sd69, jim, and who?" |
| 23:11.01 | Estel_ | OK |
| 23:11.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | woody |
| 23:11.09 | Estel_ | no problem, I understand, real life calling |
| 23:11.10 | Estel_ | OK |
| 23:11.17 | Estel_ | thedead1440, ping? |
| 23:11.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | a tad too early for him |
| 23:12.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | he been awake til 3:00 AM local, now it's ~7:00 local for him |
| 23:12.21 | Estel_ | kerio, I have no idea why DocScrutinizer05 "appointed" you as person knowledgeable about current hifo legal status, but I may be not informed well. Do you have any idea how "legit" current members of hifo are, in law (only law) terms? |
| 23:12.22 | Estel_ | I see |
| 23:12.38 | Estel_ | I'm honestly lost about how woody and jim ended up in hifo |
| 23:12.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | Ron appointed them |
| 23:13.02 | Estel_ | but I think it's less relevant now, than if by pensylvania law (where hifo is registered) they're legally able |
| 23:13.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | and yes, they are |
| 23:13.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | or rob isn't as well |
| 23:13.28 | Estel_ | so I'm lost how bylaws allow him to appoint someone, instead of triggering election? |
| 23:13.32 | Estel_ | OK |
| 23:13.47 | Estel_ | now, when last BoD meeting was held? |
| 23:13.58 | Estel_ | and how often they're enforced to do meetings? once per 6 months? |
| 23:13.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | 8 weeks ago or so |
| 23:14.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | yep |
| 23:14.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | sth like that |
| 23:14.34 | Estel_ | are there, in bylaws or pensylvania law, any triggers that force them to do another meeting now? |
| 23:14.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | no |
| 23:14.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | afaik |
| 23:15.02 | Estel_ | even such things as contracts to be signed or we're dead? |
| 23:15.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | apart from every member can call a meeting |
| 23:15.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | with 4 weeks headroom |
| 23:15.24 | Estel_ | was it called already? |
| 23:15.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | no way for externally triggered meetings afaik |
| 23:15.42 | Estel_ | I see, woody called a meeting? |
| 23:15.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes, but without a date on calendar |
| 23:15.57 | Estel_ | and what happens, legally, if they won't meet in 4 weeks from calling a meeting? |
| 23:16.12 | Estel_ | so i think we should start counting... |
| 23:16.34 | Estel_ | or either we got compromise with sd69, or we're fubared, due to no way of forcing anything. |
| 23:16.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | he proposed 4 or 5 dates and timespans and asked if they could PRETTY PLEASE meet, and reaction been "no time, busy" |
| 23:16.45 | Estel_ | when he asked |
| 23:17.01 | Estel_ | in my limited understanding, this can be used as 4 weeks eggtimer |
| 23:17.03 | Estel_ | starter |
| 23:17.12 | Estel_ | his date propositions |
| 23:17.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | in mine too, woody wasn't sure |
| 23:17.45 | Estel_ | so we need to convince him, as having person who called for BoD meeting being sure what he did is goddamn important |
| 23:17.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | now I see you start to get my angle on it, I'm out |
| 23:19.04 | Estel_ | well, I'm leading to conclusion, that even in worst case, we have some time left 'till 4 weeks egg-timer run off, to try making a compromise, as it won't work out, we can always mourn time wasted, and use legal means (failure to get a meeting in 4 weeks time, etc) to force election |
| 23:19.42 | Estel_ | still, it would be better to at least try, again, getting a compromise, and that require fresh start with "people (yes, SD69 too) mean well" attitude |
| 23:20.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | [2013-04-14 01:54:28] <DocScrutinizer05> freemangordon: >>...do your best to help that very same community last<< That's a dangerous request. I'm sure he's absolutely totally convinced he's doing exactly that |
| 23:20.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | [2013-04-14 01:55:02] <DocScrutinizer05> alas he also seems to think he's the only one who understands what's killing community, and in his world that's for sure not him |
| 23:20.34 | Estel_ | because, logically, it doesn't cost anything - without it, we're still tied to waiting - and, can bring positive things, like end of that silly war (doesn't matter whose fault it is) |
| 23:21.17 | Estel_ | so? it is still worth to try, as said, we have nothing to lose. If it won't work out, the same timeline for failed BoD meeting apply. |
| 23:21.29 | Estel_ | we can spend time 'till that on arguing, or on trying to fix it. |
| 23:22.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm not arguing anymore |
| 23:22.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's useless |
| 23:23.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~7..9 people explained to Rob in loving verbosity that makes you weep that bylaws menat to define HFC == MCC |
| 23:23.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | his answer: "but that's not what's written there. I'll gonna execute what's written there, in the way I understand it" |
| 23:24.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | which I actually can't even blame him for, I would probably do the same ;-P |
| 23:24.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | just I would not read those bylaws like a lawyer |
| 23:24.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | patent lawyer |
| 23:25.07 | Estel_ | well, lets assume for a while, that bylaws got fubared there, and from legal point of view, he have a seed of being right about it. So, maybe it's worth to discuss how to fix it and get rid of that dillema, instead of bashing him from not accepting other (obvous, I agree) point of view? |
| 23:25.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'd understand that those who wrote them were NO lawyers, and I would ask what been the spirit in those bylaws |
| 23:25.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | Estel_: I dunno |
| 23:25.50 | Estel_ | well, he is lawyer, and bylaw is law text, so it's quite understandable that lawyer is trying to read it to the letter, especially being one to be blamed by law is something goes wrong |
| 23:26.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes |
| 23:26.32 | Estel_ | I'm not sure if pensylvania law allow reffering to "spirit of documentn, in some countries, such argumentation is banned, i.e. reffering to "spirit". In others, it's encouraged |
| 23:26.52 | Estel_ | but anyway, even this alone makes meeting and taking steps to fix it very approriate |
| 23:26.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm absolutely clueless how to convince him that bylaws need fixing |
| 23:27.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | or rather, a less strict interpretation |
| 23:27.16 | Estel_ | write about it, and "soon to be urgent" section (or "urgent"?) one ;) |
| 23:27.52 | Estel_ | in a way that it wont drow in a sea of flamewars and accusations (not necessary from your side, I mean other's people posts, too) |
| 23:28.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, for everybody else the bylaws seem to be pretty clear |
| 23:28.16 | Estel_ | I'm pretty certain that no one with single brain cell with dare to start flaming under my post, for at least few days |
| 23:28.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | so it's hard to argue with the single person that has a different take on it, when that person already is convinced he's doing the right thing |
| 23:28.47 | Estel_ | I know, but even if for 1/3 of Board there is problem with bylaws, it is significant thing |
| 23:28.59 | Estel_ | so don't argue, discuss about his and yours view on fixing it, then |
| 23:29.31 | Estel_ | after all, hpw you would react if he would argue with you about something related to Maemo repos technicals, that you would be perfectly sure you're right about ;) |
| 23:29.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | nah |
| 23:29.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm suffering Rob-burnout |
| 23:29.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | I leave that to Woddy |
| 23:29.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | woody even |
| 23:31.10 | Estel_ | OK, whatever, just do it all in public, in one place (that jim's introduction thread quite become it), sparing flamewars and irony, and asking TMO moderator to mercilessly move/delete any posts that are blaming/accussing/not on merit |
| 23:51.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | Estel_: [[after all, hpw you would react if he would argue with you about something related to Maemo repos technicals, that you would be perfectly sure you're right about ;)]] been there, done that. We explained him in all epic verbosity that there are technical differences between hosting and colocation, or between a regular linux user and a user with root permissions. Sometimes he pretended to understand, just to come up again |
| 23:51.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | with same concerns about maintainers or about a hosting contract |
| 23:52.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | and we asked him what we can do to cure his concerns, we suggested alternatives - all that we could think of. |
| 23:54.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | his final answer been "but i need a hosting contract" - sth that never been an option and nobody mentioned |
| 23:54.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | see my post you took off on initially |