| 00:01.40 | merlin1991 | DocScrutinizer05: hehe I was about to post the very same thing when I read ivglavez mail |
| 00:12.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | nicocam switching negative->normal [effects] keeps sticky at negative viewfinder (haven't done a photo). switching to solarize then results in normal. switching to normal keeps normal |
| 00:12.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | not reproducable |
| 00:17.02 | merlin1991 | thinks DocScrutinizer05 enjoys finding bugs in camera-ui |
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| 01:36.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | you might have a point there indeed |
| 01:36.43 | DocScrutinizer05 | I always say camera-ui is not ready for primetime in CSSU |
| 01:37.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | now I finally found the time and occasion to show why I'm thinking this |
| 01:38.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's the total sum of such little annoyances that make me judge on some program, and I'm usually not even able to recall all of them when somebody asks |
| 01:39.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | my experience though says that all these little annoyances usually indicate there are more severe problems hiding behind the minor ones |
| 01:44.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | and the "segfaults" not only reported by me but also by other users against cssu camera-ui are such more severe problems that got rejected as "not related" but strange enough they seem to only show up with nicocam but not with stock cam even when that's allegedly not possible |
| 02:11.35 | AndrewX192 | Did one of the CSSU releases recently move the date stamp on conversations to the left? |
| 02:26.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | looks unchanged here (T7.1) |
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| 03:26.41 | AndrewX192 | weird |
| 03:26.49 | AndrewX192 | mine are on the left now, and I've tried rebooting |
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| 08:20.05 | Sicelo | hmm, thanks for new cssu stable. is there a changelog somewhere? |
| 08:56.22 | freemangordon | Sicelo: on TMO? |
| 08:57.13 | freemangordon | Sicelo: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1307318&postcount=248 |
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| 09:34.09 | Sicelo | thanks freemangordon. |
| 09:35.29 | luf | freemangordon: do you take a look on new libpng12? I added the thumb config part into rules ;) |
| 09:36.39 | freemangordon | luf: oh you bad boy :D |
| 09:36.50 | freemangordon | thanks, didn't see that |
| 09:37.19 | freemangordon | luf: BTW in 1.5 there are some NEON optimisations, I was wanderig if you could backport them to 1.2 |
| 09:37.26 | freemangordon | and if it makes semse |
| 09:37.29 | freemangordon | *sence |
| 09:37.48 | luf | I also added there some neon and softfp but I'm not sure if it's used at all. |
| 09:38.02 | luf | freemangordon: sounds good. I'll add it to my todo. |
| 09:38.23 | luf | But I think first step is just plain 1.2.49 ... |
| 09:38.30 | freemangordon | luf: can I assume libpng stable and add it to next -thumb? |
| 09:38.42 | freemangordon | luf: ofc |
| 09:39.06 | luf | I see no issue and I see no bug report. But after first failure I'm not sure if someone is testing it. |
| 09:39.33 | jon_y | I guess there are proprietary programs that depend on libpng12? |
| 09:39.44 | freemangordon | hmm. ok. i'll thumb-compile it and will install it on my primary |
| 09:39.48 | freemangordon | jon_y: so? |
| 09:40.04 | jon_y | the reason you won't be moving to libpng15? |
| 09:40.28 | freemangordon | jon_y: backport(neon code) being the key word here :P |
| 09:41.16 | freemangordon | jon_y: we are not talking about an upgrade |
| 09:41.17 | jon_y | ah well, if there weren't any proprietary packages, you could just do a mass rebuild on anything that depended on libpng12 |
| 09:41.58 | jon_y | I assumed that the API is backward compatible, but not the ABI |
| 09:42.34 | jon_y | saves you the trouble of manually doing a backport :) |
| 09:44.06 | luf | jon_y: I don't think that massive rebuild is a good thing. |
| 09:49.17 | kerio | wasn't gcc awful at NEON code? |
| 09:49.37 | freemangordon | kerio: only the vectorizer |
| 09:49.48 | kerio | oh, automatic NEON code generation? |
| 09:51.01 | freemangordon | WTF?!? "cp: skipping file `debian/tmp//usr/lib/libpng.a', as it was replaced while being copied" |
| 09:52.30 | freemangordon | luf: ^^^ |
| 09:53.35 | luf | freemangordon: NI :) |
| 10:12.34 | luf | freemangordon: does it fail or just warning? |
| 10:12.53 | freemangordon | it fails |
| 10:13.15 | luf | strange I has no such experience with libpng build. |
| 10:13.29 | luf | Can you try it once again? |
| 10:13.36 | freemangordon | luf: it is SB bug, i'll fix it somehow |
| 10:13.53 | luf | Aaah ok. |
| 10:14.50 | jon_y | building on a FAT drive? :) |
| 10:15.15 | freemangordon | no, in VMWare |
| 10:15.53 | jon_y | bad clock drift? |
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| 10:26.01 | freemangordon | luf: https://gitorious.org/community-ssu/libpng/commit/b08ae5082fb168fa335042e14e473f0ea9125917 |
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| 10:28.04 | freemangordon | luf: which apps were failing? |
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| 10:42.21 | luf | freemangordon: why do you change it? |
| 10:42.29 | freemangordon | kerio, luf: thumby libpng is in the repo, feel free to test it. here - so far, so good |
| 10:42.36 | freemangordon | luf: to be able to build it |
| 10:42.36 | luf | OMP, HAM, ... http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1306622#post1306622 |
| 10:43.07 | luf | freemangordon: I'm able to build it. |
| 10:43.26 | freemangordon | luf: I know, but I was not able to thumb-build it |
| 10:43.54 | luf | I don't understand what is the difference in thumb x non-thumb build ... |
| 10:44.04 | freemangordon | nfc |
| 10:46.13 | luf | freemangordon: you changed it so you should know ... |
| 10:46.20 | freemangordon | :D |
| 10:47.05 | freemangordon | luf: it is only in thumb-testing branch, so it really does not matter. as long as it builds :P |
| 10:47.17 | luf | freemangordon: it's very strange to have libpng.a symlink so something else ... |
| 10:47.33 | kerio | freemangordon: OMP works |
| 10:47.35 | freemangordon | luf: it was the same before the change |
| 10:47.54 | luf | :D |
| 10:47.54 | freemangordon | i just changed the way thesymlink is created |
| 10:48.14 | freemangordon | kerio: good :) |
| 10:48.18 | luf | Ok. Strange. |
| 10:49.07 | freemangordon | kerio: I guess we should see some rendeving speed improvements. NFC how to test it though |
| 10:49.13 | luf | freemangordon: can you change it also in master? I see no reason to have two different builds when the result is the same. |
| 10:49.49 | freemangordon | luf: sure, but not now |
| 10:50.06 | luf | freemangordon: ok, same for me ;) |
| 10:50.25 | freemangordon | luf: BTW the purpose to have thumb-testing branch is exactly that |
| 10:50.40 | freemangordon | to have dfferent build scripts, etc |
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| 10:50.44 | freemangordon | *different |
| 10:51.23 | luf | freemangordon: don't think so. I understand different changelog and control but not the rest (in libpng at least). |
| 10:51.42 | freemangordon | kerio: any idea how to benchmark pango, freetype and libpng? |
| 10:52.08 | freemangordon | luf: well, ok. BTW you can do it too, just cherry-pick the commit |
| 10:52.31 | freemangordon | luf: but please, don;t increas the version |
| 10:52.35 | freemangordon | *increase |
| 10:52.41 | freemangordon | in debian/changelog |
| 10:53.41 | kerio | freemangordon: i read something about a ftbench tool |
| 10:53.44 | kerio | to benchmark freetype |
| 10:55.29 | freemangordon | kerio: any clue where to find the source code? |
| 10:55.56 | kerio | freemangordon: in the freetype source, in ft2demos apparently |
| 10:56.04 | kerio | maybe it was discontinued though |
| 10:56.59 | freemangordon | it's missing in maemo |
| 10:57.34 | kerio | http://download.savannah.gnu.org/releases/freetype/freetype-old/ft2demos-2.3.9.tar.gz |
| 10:57.39 | kerio | matching version :) |
| 10:58.13 | freemangordon | great |
| 10:58.35 | kerio | not sure how extensive of a benchmark it is, but it claims to "bench some common FreeType call paths" |
| 11:04.01 | freemangordon | hmm, it compiles and runs on the device, but wants me to give a font file :( |
| 11:04.55 | freemangordon | kerio: http://merlin1991.at/~freemangordon/ftbench |
| 11:09.45 | kerio | freemangordon: i'm getting a lot of jitter in the data :s |
| 11:10.22 | freemangordon | kerio: what data? |
| 11:10.30 | kerio | the benchmarking data |
| 11:10.49 | kerio | especially Embolden and Get_CBox |
| 11:11.08 | freemangordon | kerio: run it with higher -t |
| 11:11.16 | freemangordon | 5 seconds for example |
| 11:11.34 | freemangordon | and maybe kernel-config lock 500 |
| 11:12.11 | kerio | face size? 10 is never used on the n900 |
| 11:12.26 | freemangordon | what is used? |
| 11:12.37 | kerio | something bigger, idunno |
| 11:12.46 | kerio | have you ever seen a n900 screenshot on a computer? it's huge |
| 11:12.48 | freemangordon | BTW benchmarking with ./ftbench -t 10 /usr/share/fonts/nokia/Nokia_Sans_Maps.ttf |
| 11:12.54 | kerio | freemangordon: hm |
| 11:13.02 | kerio | use nosnr |
| 11:13.04 | freemangordon | CPU locked @500 |
| 11:13.05 | kerio | nokia sans regular |
| 11:13.18 | Lava_Croft | cough nokia sans cn cough |
| 11:13.20 | Lava_Croft | :) |
| 11:13.20 | freemangordon | where to find it? |
| 11:13.28 | kerio | same directory, nosnr.ttf |
| 11:13.31 | freemangordon | ok |
| 11:13.57 | freemangordon | well, lets use 16 as font size |
| 11:14.14 | kerio | ./ftbench -t 10 -s 16 /usr/share/fonts/nokia/nosnr.ttf |
| 11:14.17 | kerio | this is my command line |
| 11:14.30 | freemangordon | same here :D |
| 11:19.11 | freemangordon | -thumb is slightly faster |
| 11:19.19 | kerio | yep |
| 11:19.23 | kerio | but not by much |
| 11:19.28 | freemangordon | yep |
| 11:19.39 | kerio | oh well, every bit helps |
| 11:21.00 | freemangordon | http://pastebin.com/ivVtRb4k |
| 11:21.15 | kerio | http://pastebin.ca/2297084 |
| 11:21.45 | freemangordon | kerio: what CPU freq? |
| 11:21.53 | kerio | 500 |
| 11:22.35 | freemangordon | hmm, very strange, esp for embolden |
| 11:22.44 | freemangordon | why our result differ that much? |
| 11:23.23 | freemangordon | anywat, i gtg, bbl |
| 11:23.26 | kerio | \_o_/ |
| 11:23.30 | freemangordon | bye for now |
| 11:23.31 | kerio | benchmarks be crazy |
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| 12:15.54 | kerio | DocScrutinizer06: do you still have the n900 with cssu-thumb installed? |
| 12:18.18 | kerio | luf: is it osx or setting up a bt pan network requires a fair bit of time? |
| 12:34.02 | jon_y | I'm still stuck with thumb :) |
| 12:34.14 | kerio | "stuck"? |
| 12:34.36 | jon_y | thumb5.1 |
| 12:34.52 | jon_y | *maemo5.1 |
| 12:35.10 | jon_y | everybody else probably installed cssu6 over it |
| 12:36.04 | jon_y | when is thumb cssu6 ready? :) |
| 12:36.16 | kerio | thumb cssu7.1 is already ready |
| 12:36.28 | jon_y | whoa what |
| 12:36.36 | jon_y | when was that? |
| 12:40.24 | kerio | yesterday |
| 12:40.30 | kerio | all my troubles seemed so far away |
| 12:40.40 | kerio | now it looks as though they're here to stay |
| 12:40.44 | kerio | oh, i believe |
| 12:40.49 | kerio | in yesterday |
| 12:41.59 | jon_y | cool, where would the changelog be? |
| 12:42.24 | kerio | TMO, as usual |
| 12:43.32 | jon_y | I find only the stable thread |
| 12:45.19 | jon_y | where is the testing version anyway? |
| 12:45.29 | kerio | http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1307668&postcount=1038 |
| 12:45.35 | jon_y | thanks |
| 12:46.21 | jon_y | any kernel requirements for ppoll/pselect? |
| 12:48.26 | kerio | libc6 isn't in the update |
| 12:50.04 | kerio | if you want, install libc6 from cssu-devel |
| 12:50.22 | kerio | then, if you have kp52 (or the latest kernel-cssu?) you'll get the fix |
| 12:55.05 | jon_y | ok, I have kp52 |
| 12:55.24 | jon_y | good work guys, phone just booted up |
| 12:55.29 | kerio | :D |
| 12:55.44 | jon_y | curious that there is an update for uboot+stock kernel |
| 12:55.51 | jon_y | is that any of your doing? |
| 12:56.03 | jon_y | if not, I'll just skip that |
| 12:56.13 | kerio | it's pali's doing |
| 12:56.15 | kerio | in extras-devel |
| 12:56.18 | kerio | the latest uboot |
| 12:57.19 | jon_y | cool, so it is a continuation of pali's unofficial debs? |
| 12:57.28 | kerio | it's just the latest ones i believe |
| 12:57.31 | jon_y | unofficial meaning not in the repo |
| 12:57.38 | jon_y | oh, they're the same? |
| 13:02.35 | DocScrutinizer06 | kerio: yes |
| 13:02.49 | kerio | DocScrutinizer06: could you benchmark libfreetype too? |
| 13:05.08 | DocScrutinizer06 | why do you think a further benchmark on an identical hw platform and system will be needed? |
| 13:06.53 | kerio | it's not an identical system, he doesn't use it |
| 13:30.29 | luf | kerio: what type of pan setup? |
| 13:30.41 | kerio | the n900 as a NAP |
| 13:31.40 | luf | kerio: It's not so easy :( The easiest way is to write some script for bringing up the bridge device + some iptables staff. |
| 13:31.53 | kerio | luf: huh? it... works already |
| 13:32.18 | luf | ... and put it into /etc/bluetooth/network.conf |
| 13:32.42 | kerio | it's just a bit slow between opening the connection on the osx side and actually allowing packets through |
| 13:33.32 | luf | I have no problem with bt network ... so I guess osx side. |
| 13:33.54 | kerio | it's not a problem, it's just that establishing the network takes like 10 seconds |
| 13:33.56 | luf | kerio: How do you setup the NAP part on N900? |
| 13:34.15 | luf | kerio: less than 1s here ;) |
| 13:34.24 | kerio | [NAP Role] |
| 13:34.27 | kerio | Interface=btnap |
| 13:34.31 | kerio | Script=/sbin/ifup |
| 13:34.47 | kerio | and btnap configured as inet static in interfaces |
| 13:35.12 | luf | Cool similar way didn't work for me. |
| 13:35.45 | luf | And what about allowing routing between interfaces (to access inet). |
| 13:37.55 | kerio | oh, i haven't done that |
| 13:38.40 | kerio | an issue is that btnap stays up |
| 13:38.50 | kerio | but meh, it's a bridge with no connected interfaces |
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| 14:15.36 | DocScrutinizer06 | merlin1991: ping |
| 14:20.42 | luf | kerio: it's no issue. I see no problem/error in keeping the bridge up even there is no slave devices in the bridge. |
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| 14:30.12 | kerio | luf: btw, is bluetoothd supposed to bring up the bridge? |
| 14:30.15 | kerio | when is the script called? |
| 14:30.33 | kerio | because it appears that it brings the bridge up, but maybe i want to do that even before bluetoothd starts |
| 14:32.24 | luf | kerio: bluetoothd creates the bridge device brings it up and calls the script. |
| 14:32.44 | kerio | what if i want to set it up myself? |
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| 14:38.10 | luf | Let's try it (maybe it's ok). Second possibility is to not configure it in config file and try to start it using dbus. |
| 14:38.50 | luf | However you can setup it yourself also after bluetoothd start ;) |
| 14:39.40 | kerio | luf: yeah but stopping bluetoothd would take it down |
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| 15:00.25 | luf | kerio: yes. It's you decision how to manage NAP ;) |
| 15:00.48 | kerio | no, i mean, regardless of what you do, bluetoothd deletes the bridge when stopped |
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| 15:27.50 | merlin1991 | DocScrutinizer05: pong |
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| 18:11.16 | tadzik | so, what does one need to do to get the new rtcomm-messaging-ui in portrait mode? |
| 18:11.23 | tadzik | (testing+thumb 7.1) |
| 18:13.33 | kerio | tadzik: remove the messaging ui from the blacklist |
| 18:13.37 | kerio | and/or possibly add it to the whitelist |
| 18:13.42 | kerio | (to force the rotation) |
| 18:16.07 | tadzik | if that's [thp_tweaks] section of transitions.ini, I only have camera-ui in the blacklist, no whitelist. I added whitelist = rtcomm-messaging-ui, should I need to restart something now? |
| 18:16.18 | arcean | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1307964#post1307964 |
| 18:17.07 | tadzik | ah, I was typing "rtcomm" for some reason. Thanks arcean, I must've missed that post |
| 18:17.07 | kerio | tadzik: probably not |
| 18:17.45 | arcean | tadzik: save changes and try to rotate the device |
| 18:18.09 | tadzik | yeah, it works like a charm now |
| 18:18.14 | tadzik | thanks |
| 18:19.04 | kerio | tadzik: is it pretty? |
| 18:19.08 | tadzik | kerio: hell yeah |
| 18:19.16 | arcean | it really works good with portrait vkb :) |
| 18:19.19 | tadzik | only the text on the buttons on the top is a bit overlapping |
| 18:19.32 | tadzik | but that may be a matter of translatino |
| 18:19.44 | tadzik | portrait vkb is a matter of whitelisting something as well? |
| 18:19.57 | kerio | there's no portrait vkb i think |
| 18:20.14 | arcean | lol, there's :D |
| 18:21.12 | arcean | kerio: tadzik: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1288727&postcount=133 |
| 18:21.31 | arcean | and that's how it looks like http://i.imgur.com/TD7I9.png |
| 18:21.57 | kerio | neat |
| 18:40.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | not that it was one of my primary interests, but: is portrait-vkbd already included in CSSU-T? |
| 18:41.30 | arcean | it's not even in CSSU-devel |
| 18:42.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | it quite obviously belongs there, urgently. Since without the whole portrait mode is ... :-S halfbaked feature? |
| 18:43.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | arcean: have you considered the augments to whitelist/blacklist concept? |
| 18:44.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's just a 20..50 src lines |
| 18:44.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | basically |
| 18:47.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | I guess I'd have to write up a terse spec somewhere |
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| 18:55.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | though basically I can do it in one line: get a linked-list var for combined white/blacklist, with entry tupels name:status. Fill that list on boot (and on sigusr2 whatever) by parsing for 2 keys: x-maemo-hd-portrait-include=<path> and x-maemo-hd-portrait-mode=<status>. In <path> a "\f" will get replaced by name of app. |
| 19:01.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | you start at e.g transitions.ini as usual, and in there you possibly have exactly one (static) entry: x-maemo-hd-portrait-include=/etc/h-d.d/rotation.conf. This file in turn has further includes like x-maemo-hd-portrait-include=/etc/h-d.d/\f.conf; x-maemo-hd-portrait-include=/usr/share/applications/hildon/\f.desktop |
| 19:04.07 | DocScrutinizer05 | depending on policy you either overwrite existing name records in list, or you ignore a x-maemo-hd-portrait-mode=<status> for which there's already a record |
| 19:06.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | of course you ignore all keys you find in any parsed file which you don't 'know' |
| 19:10.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | to keep backward compatibility you even can parse the existing white/blacklists as well, and create entries <name>:0x01 for each name in blacklist and <name>:0x02 for each entry in whitelist |
| 19:15.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | status defined as: restrict to 0x01 = landscape, 0x02 portrait, 0x04 anti-landscape, 0x08 anti-portait. 0x00 dont-care. orientations are allowed to get ORed: 0x05 means app can do landscape and 180° rotation "heads-down" anti-portrait |
| 19:16.30 | kerio | just no |
| 19:16.35 | kerio | don't do weird rotations like that |
| 19:16.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | maybe we should use a 32bit for status |
| 19:16.37 | kerio | we don't need them |
| 19:17.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: you should know me by now, my specs NEVER leave out stuff just because "somebody doesn't need that" |
| 19:18.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | I didn't say H-D must support all those rotation modes |
| 19:18.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | but that's how status is specified |
| 19:18.54 | merlin1991 | so who's here? |
| 19:19.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | you're free to use 0x01 and 0x02 only |
| 19:19.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | ooohfsck a meeting :-/ |
| 19:19.38 | kerio | DocScrutinizer05: why stop there then? |
| 19:19.47 | kerio | why can't i rotate 45° clockwise? |
| 19:20.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | since hw doesn't usually support that |
| 19:21.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | it would be pretty hard to define aspect ratio for 45° |
| 19:21.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm already shutting up, for meeting's sake |
| 19:22.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | merlin1991: you probably want to fire up a few pings |
| 19:23.02 | kerio | just ctcp the channel |
| 19:23.03 | merlin1991 | ping arcean freemangordon Pali luf |
| 19:23.31 | *** join/#maemo-ssu zogg__ (~zoggrules@109.64.186.173) |
| 19:23.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | I scared away everybody :-S |
| 19:23.46 | Pali | pong merlin1991 |
| 19:23.48 | kerio | they're mad about the lack of 60° rotation |
| 19:27.02 | merlin1991 | seems I guessed right with the christmas week :D |
| 19:30.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | seems I already made my point with whitelist ;-D - and vkbd-portrait |
| 19:30.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | consider that my contribution to the meeting ->away for shower |
| 19:33.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | merlin1991: you're free to copy the above for a mini-spec similar to http://maemo.merlin1991.at/cssu/meetings/2012-05-14.txt |
| 19:33.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | title: about whitelist/blacklist for HD portrait |
| 19:41.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~#maemo-ssu optional is http://maemo.merlin1991.at/cssu/meetings/2012-05-14.txt |
| 19:41.11 | infobot | DocScrutinizer05: okay |
| 19:41.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~#maemo-ssu alternative is <reply>see optional |
| 19:41.36 | infobot | DocScrutinizer05: okay |
| 19:42.42 | DocScrutinizer05 | o/ for good |
| 19:43.54 | freemangordon | merlin1991: pong |
| 19:44.08 | freemangordon | sorry for being late |
| 19:45.24 | merlin1991 | there we loose Pali xD |
| 19:45.41 | merlin1991 | I guess we should continue in jannuary |
| 19:46.22 | freemangordon | merlin1991: well, lets give him a chance |
| 19:46.37 | freemangordon | I guess he'll be back in a couple of minutes |
| 19:47.16 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: I REed VKB for it to be included in CSSU with portrait mode support |
| 19:47.57 | freemangordon | nicolai did some code changes, but we need someone to take the maintainership. someone who know GTK |
| 19:48.04 | freemangordon | *knows |
| 19:49.11 | freemangordon | merlin1991: you promised :P |
| 19:49.36 | merlin1991 | I knew there's something I missed :( |
| 19:49.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | have you announced that? I mean you'll not find a maintainer without asking |
| 19:49.59 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: yes, I did |
| 19:50.08 | freemangordon | though on TMO |
| 19:50.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | btw what will happen when a maintainer for pkg XY resigns? will CSSU drop the pkg? |
| 19:50.39 | freemangordon | and nicolai said he'll be that one. but he lost the interest it seems |
| 19:50.52 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: no, why shall we do that |
| 19:51.23 | freemangordon | if that was the case, we have to drop all the stuff which was abandoned by nokia |
| 19:51.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, but then why not include a pkg when it's not clearly maintained - that's my point |
| 19:51.38 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: we need developer |
| 19:52.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | if the pkg works (is supposed to work), we could get it into T, no? |
| 19:53.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | how is vkbd-p different to arbitrary orphaned Nokia pkgs ? |
| 19:53.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | just asking |
| 19:53.27 | freemangordon | yep. but somone should say "it is ready for -T, i'll fix the bugs when they appear". i.e. someone should take the ownership |
| 19:53.35 | freemangordon | *someone |
| 19:53.45 | freemangordon | no difference |
| 19:54.07 | freemangordon | we just need someone to take the project |
| 19:55.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | your users ask you for inclusion, and it's clearly an augmented functionality that could get dropped and nobody was off worse than with it never been included |
| 19:55.15 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: otherwise we'll be in cellular-whatever-the-name-was situation |
| 19:55.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | nope, since that replaced an existing thing |
| 19:55.53 | freemangordon | I mean from development POV |
| 19:56.23 | freemangordon | have in mind I might have introduced bugs in landscape support |
| 19:56.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | users had a working carriername-applet before, they got a regression with sms-cb-applet |
| 19:56.49 | DocScrutinizer05 | with vkbd-p aiui they never will see any regression |
| 19:57.08 | freemangordon | same here, users have working landscape VKB, they might have regressions with REed one |
| 19:57.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | ooops, regressions in landscape -> bummer |
| 19:57.17 | freemangordon | yep |
| 19:57.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | ok, never mind |
| 19:57.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | o/ |
| 19:58.58 | freemangordon | merlin1991: well, if you plan to do that post, please ask for GTK developer to take ownership of VKB. We don;t need one for tklock, I think I fixed it and know what needs to be done in addition |
| 19:59.03 | freemangordon | (for tklock) |
| 20:00.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | would support from council be needed? |
| 20:01.13 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: if they know GTK :P |
| 20:01.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | ;-P |
| 20:02.39 | *** join/#maemo-ssu NIN102 (~NIN@p5DD29382.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 20:11.46 | AndrewX192 | I think the rtcom-messaging-ui-portrait change may have messed up my time stamps |
| 20:14.31 | luf | merlin1991: pong (another unplanned visit ...) |
| 20:15.05 | merlin1991 | we'll get it going in january, no obligatioins to stay on now |
| 20:16.50 | luf | :( I'm sorry. |
| 20:17.47 | merlin1991 | np |
| 20:24.07 | luf | freemangordon: did you release new version of tklock? |
| 20:29.22 | tadzik | arcean: that looks cool. Where do you put that en_US.vkb file to get the layout like the one on the screenshot you posted? |
| 20:34.03 | freemangordon | luf: no, it is the next one in my todo |
| 20:43.38 | luf | ok. Just a question as you mentioned that you fix it ;) |
| 20:44.20 | freemangordon | I fixed the problem we needed GTK developer for. But the one you reported still remains. |
| 20:44.54 | luf | :) |
| 20:45.04 | freemangordon | tadzik: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1288727&postcount=133 |
| 21:00.36 | *** join/#maemo-ssu Jaded (~jade@Jade.broker.freenet6.net) |
| 21:00.36 | *** join/#maemo-ssu Jaded (~jade@unaffiliated/jade) |
| 21:22.45 | freemangordon | luf: how is bluetoothd? |
| 21:23.56 | luf | freemangordon: still strange win error. I tested id with several win bluetooth stacks without problem but don_falcone and also merlin1991 reported the problem. I have to find more time for testing and ask merlin1991 for the support. |
| 21:24.17 | freemangordon | luf: I have XP here |
| 21:24.57 | luf | And also kerio don't want to send me more details about some wrong state when no successful connect. |
| 21:25.02 | merlin1991 | luf: it's all ready, I just need a ping from you to start it up :) |
| 21:25.30 | luf | merlin1991: I know I have to find longer time from my side. |
| 21:25.51 | luf | freemangordon: I was unable to reproduce if on win xp. |
| 21:25.54 | freemangordon | widcomm/toshiba/IVT stacks here |
| 21:25.58 | luf | *it |
| 21:26.11 | kerio | luf: i never had any issue since i started keeping the phone in my jacket's pockets instead of the pants' pockets |
| 21:26.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~#maemo vkbd-portrait is http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1288727&postcount=133 |
| 21:26.31 | infobot | okay, DocScrutinizer05 |
| 21:26.31 | luf | kerio: :D |
| 21:26.39 | kerio | so yeah, range issue |
| 21:27.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: BT kbd? |
| 21:27.45 | freemangordon | luf: besides file transfer to win7, are there any other problems? If not I may install it on my primary device, I have BT HF connected all day long. |
| 21:28.02 | kerio | DocScrutinizer05: 'phonz |
| 21:28.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | mhm |
| 21:28.43 | freemangordon | luf: what stack did you test it on XP? |
| 21:28.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | just wondered if BT kbd would auto-powerdown when paired device not reachable |
| 21:29.07 | kerio | my behind-the-neck headphones are barely in range with the n900 in my pocket |
| 21:29.14 | freemangordon | thinks it depends on the kbd |
| 21:29.15 | luf | freemangordon: I see no other problem. But you know there should be. |
| 21:29.22 | kerio | and if i pause the song they try to powersave and then they're not in range anymore |
| 21:29.41 | kerio | feels bad man |
| 21:29.50 | freemangordon | luf: .debs? |
| 21:30.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm da bad man! |
| 21:30.11 | luf | freemangordon: I tested IVT BlueSoleil, MS and also WIDCOMM (I don't find OPP win -> N900 with widcomm) |
| 21:30.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | scubbidubididoodbidababab |
| 21:30.31 | freemangordon | luf: afaik MS is widcomm |
| 21:30.48 | freemangordon | well, I have toshiba stack too |
| 21:31.11 | freemangordon | gimme a link to .deb files and i'll test it on my devel device |
| 21:31.17 | luf | freemangordon: it seems a little bit different (maybe newer version or something like that) |
| 21:31.32 | freemangordon | hmm, could be |
| 21:31.34 | luf | _you_know_/~luf/bluez/ |
| 21:31.37 | freemangordon | ok |
| 21:31.51 | *** join/#maemo-ssu arcean (~arcean@aacv246.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) |
| 21:32.03 | luf | freemangordon: 2maemo2 |
| 21:32.10 | freemangordon | ok |
| 21:33.06 | luf | freemangordon: It has enabled DUN support ;) and maybe a little bit different NAP support |
| 21:33.54 | freemangordon | well, i'll see how it will behave with "stock" KCSSU :D |
| 21:34.09 | freemangordon | luf: how to try to reproduce the problem? |
| 21:34.31 | kerio | luf: btw, you should ship a default network.conf |
| 21:35.28 | luf | kerio: it's needed KP52 for bridge support ;) |
| 21:35.42 | kerio | so? leave everything disabled, as usual |
| 21:36.20 | luf | freemangordon: just connect N900 with win and try to send some file using OPP from win -> N900 and also N900 - > win |
| 21:36.44 | luf | kerio: right, but it's lower on my TODO (win bug is the first). |
| 21:39.58 | freemangordon | luf: works n900->win with IVT. will reboot, just in case |
| 21:41.27 | luf | freemangordon: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1305761#post1305761 |
| 21:42.44 | luf | I'm leaving. I hope I'll find some time during weekend or next week. |
| 21:50.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | libwrt1 anybody? wtf is that? |
| 21:51.06 | freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: PM by unexpected? |
| 21:51.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | indeed |
| 21:51.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | he installed openWRT on N900? |
| 21:51.30 | freemangordon | well, ignore that, i've already told him what todo |
| 21:51.48 | freemangordon | hmm maybe webrt, who knows |
| 21:52.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | which is? GTFO and die? |
| 21:52.07 | freemangordon | no |
| 21:52.30 | freemangordon | told him to uninstall the conflicting packages and to ask the package maintainer |
| 21:54.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'd suggest "reflash, and don't install shit" |
| 21:55.24 | DocScrutinizer05 | /usr/bin/webappregisterer W*T*F? |
| 21:55.57 | freemangordon | NFC. however i will ignore further PMs from him, as he is flooding us |
| 21:56.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | indeed |
| 21:57.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | ~question |
| 21:57.03 | infobot | methinks question is If you have a question and want people to give useful answers, make sure you have read this first: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html |
| 21:59.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | ((btw has a chapter about giving sovereign useful polite answers too ;)) |
| 22:00.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | I probably should re-read it, periodic schedule expired for doing so |
| 22:02.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | and I tell you I hate IMAP. One PC shows that PM, while I'm reading it the other PC filters/moves same msg to "tmo-notifications" dir, and on next poll on this PC the msg vanished while me reading it >:-( |
| 22:03.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | IMAP meant to simplify multi-client, but in fact everything but single-client tends to become a major PITA |
| 22:05.06 | kerio | DocScrutinizer05: multi-client but not at the same time |
| 22:09.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | gives me headache |
| 22:10.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | diconnected IMAP, subscribed directories, shits-n-whistles |
| 22:12.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | and pretty easily you delete mails on server and each client \o/ |
| 22:13.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | what a mad insanity is THAT? |
| 22:36.31 | merlin1991 | DocScrutinizer05: that's why my filter are serverside |
| 22:37.22 | merlin1991 | hooked the filtering into the MDA so no client side moving/messing/madness |
| 22:37.27 | DocScrutinizer05 | that however means I need to duplicate all dirs serverside as well, and can't have different dirs on particular PCs |
| 22:37.38 | merlin1991 | that's true :D |
| 22:37.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | that |
| 22:37.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | 's BS |
| 22:38.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | insane concept |
| 22:39.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | I mean, I as well can use a webmailer then |
| 22:39.26 | ShadowJK | has serverside filtering too |
| 22:41.32 | DocScrutinizer05 | how da F I tweak IMAP to mimic plain good ole' POP? |
| 22:43.25 | kerio | tell your client to download mail and delete it on the server, i s'pose |
| 22:43.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | haha |
| 22:44.12 | DocScrutinizer05 | the latter is exactly what I DONT WANT to do |
| 22:45.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | and which I seem incapable to teach friggin IMAP about: *never* delete shit on server |
| 22:46.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | at least not without my explicit consent |
| 22:47.12 | kerio | then don't delete shit |
| 22:47.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | meh, shutup when you got nothing to contribute |
| 22:47.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, pissed |
| 22:48.33 | ShadowJK | would say that "Don't delete stuff" is advantageous to not having stuff deleted :D |
| 22:49.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, and a real insider advice |
| 22:49.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-S |
| 22:50.11 | DocScrutinizer05 | the point is: IMAP deletes mail on my local PC |
| 22:50.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | which is an absolute nogo |
| 22:51.02 | ShadowJK | Well the whole point of imap is that you don't have local storage, or at most have a local cache of the remote contents, and that you have the exact same view on all clients |
| 22:51.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | the whole point is I *WANT* local storage |
| 22:51.28 | ShadowJK | then don't use imap |
| 22:51.40 | *** join/#maemo-ssu kolp (~quassel@212.255.105.160) |
| 22:51.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | the mailer server doesn't offer POP - now your turn to give advice |
| 22:53.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | I don't use IMAP just because I love bitching |
| 22:54.16 | Sc0rpius | IMAP deletes mail in your local PC? |
| 22:54.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | yes |
| 22:54.33 | Sc0rpius | it doesn't do that to me |
| 22:54.50 | ShadowJK | I don't use any clients that does local storage :/ |
| 22:54.52 | Sc0rpius | unless I delete the mail in the server of course |
| 22:55.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | great, how did you set up your mailer client? |
| 22:55.07 | Sc0rpius | I don't use web based email accounts |
| 22:55.10 | DocScrutinizer05 | clients* |
| 22:55.24 | Sc0rpius | you set folder as "offline folders" then if an email gets downloaded it stays there forever |
| 22:55.36 | Sc0rpius | that's enabled by default by ANY Microsoft client |
| 22:55.44 | Sc0rpius | but if you use thunderbird, you have to set it per folder |
| 22:56.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | and when one clinet delets or just moves such mail to another dir, it vanishes on all other clients still |
| 22:56.21 | Sc0rpius | that also avoids the redownloading of the email every time you click on it |
| 22:56.26 | Sc0rpius | (which is very tedious) |
| 22:56.46 | Sc0rpius | if the email disappears from the server it is deleted in every client of course |
| 22:56.56 | Sc0rpius | but why would you delete an email in the server that you don't want locally? |
| 22:56.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm already using offline IMAP |
| 22:57.01 | Sc0rpius | I meant that you still want locally |
| 22:57.18 | Sc0rpius | the server is like the repository of emails and your backup server actually. Every email should be there |
| 22:57.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | that's not the question |
| 22:57.30 | Sc0rpius | you're using it wrong :( |
| 22:57.34 | Sc0rpius | you want IMAP to be like POP3 |
| 22:57.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | the point is >>IMAP deletes mail on my local PC<< |
| 22:57.38 | Sc0rpius | and they are so different. |
| 22:57.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR |
| 22:57.48 | Sc0rpius | ONLY if you delete the mail! |
| 22:57.58 | Sc0rpius | and if you're deleting the mail, you ARE DELETING THE MAIL |
| 22:58.06 | Sc0rpius | *EVERYWHERE* |
| 22:58.12 | Sc0rpius | that's why I say you're using it wrong |
| 22:58.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | and if you're telling me same shit 10 times, you did it 10 times more than I need it. Since we've been there 30 min ago |
| 22:59.03 | Sc0rpius | so you want an email exchange protocol that when an email is deleted in the server it's still there in the clients that downloaded them? |
| 22:59.06 | DocScrutinizer05 | I have to use IMAP since there is no POP available |
| 22:59.08 | Sc0rpius | then start writing your RFC. |
| 22:59.21 | Sc0rpius | POP is obsolete and very insecure, it had to disappear. |
| 22:59.28 | DocScrutinizer05 | bullshit |
| 23:00.02 | Sc0rpius | in this age emails are supposed to be on the servers, not the client. Since broadband speeds are not fast enough we need still cache. That's why offline folder options exist |
| 23:00.08 | DocScrutinizer05 | IMAP is insecure since it deletes mails from my local PC |
| 23:00.13 | Sc0rpius | but the principle stays the same: mails belong to servers, not clients |
| 23:00.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | I beg to differ |
| 23:00.43 | Sc0rpius | eventually (and this is the part I hate) IMAP will disappear too |
| 23:00.52 | Sc0rpius | and we all have to use web based mail accounts |
| 23:00.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | I hope so |
| 23:01.06 | Sc0rpius | and there will be no mail clients |
| 23:01.14 | Sc0rpius | just browsers |
| 23:01.18 | DocScrutinizer05 | no, I'll use pigeons then |
| 23:01.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | or run my mail server on my PC |
| 23:01.48 | Sc0rpius | you can do that right now |
| 23:01.49 | Sc0rpius | many people do |
| 23:02.07 | ShadowJK | downloads emails to his server with fetchmail |
| 23:02.09 | Sc0rpius | and install a POP3 daemon |
| 23:02.19 | ShadowJK | so I can run it through procmail and spamassassin |
| 23:02.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | it's a PITA since then I have to forward from one PC to the other, via POP |
| 23:02.29 | ShadowJK | then serve it out over imap through vpn |
| 23:02.30 | DocScrutinizer05 | or smtp |
| 23:02.59 | Sc0rpius | pay your own domain docscrutinizer.com and then install all the daemons you want in an Amazon E3 instance |
| 23:03.21 | Sc0rpius | you can't use your home connection for that since your IP must be registered as dynamic |
| 23:03.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | and how does that help with that IMAP-only mailserver ? |
| 23:03.38 | ShadowJK | you can send through isp smtp still |
| 23:04.03 | Sc0rpius | install POP3 in the instance and configure all IMAP accounts you have to forward to your @docscrutinizer.com account |
| 23:04.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | there's no forwarding service on that IMAP server |
| 23:04.32 | ShadowJK | Or use fetchmail to fetch from those accounts and feed it through procmail to @docscrutinizer or similar |
| 23:04.36 | Sc0rpius | :( |
| 23:05.04 | Sc0rpius | yeah you can use fetchmail to fetch mails and then via procmail store it in your Maildir |
| 23:05.32 | Sc0rpius | though I have to admit I love IMAP |
| 23:05.35 | Sc0rpius | and I really hated POP3. |
| 23:05.51 | Sc0rpius | because a hard disk crash means = all mails lost. |
| 23:05.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | your suggestions clearly indicate that IMAP is a broken-by-design protocol |
| 23:05.57 | Sc0rpius | a stolen laptop = all mails lost. |
| 23:06.00 | Sc0rpius | etc |
| 23:06.12 | Sc0rpius | with IMAP = no matter what, when or where you have your mails at your finger, even in your phone! |
| 23:06.31 | ShadowJK | I used to have Maildir over NFS, instead of Maildir over imap :-) |
| 23:06.55 | DocScrutinizer05 | Sc0rpius: I got my mails on 3 different clients locally, so no server HDD failure will kill them |
| 23:07.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | Sc0rpius: ooh, tell me that again in a mail I can receive in airplane |
| 23:08.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | tell me how to do complex greps over 500.000 mails on server |
| 23:08.25 | Sc0rpius | ssh to it? |
| 23:08.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | bwahaha |
| 23:08.48 | DocScrutinizer05 | ok so I need a own server, IMAP, ssh, for what? |
| 23:08.54 | Sc0rpius | that's what I do @ work. ssh, cd Maildir, egrep blablabla |
| 23:09.05 | DocScrutinizer05 | to deal with somebody saying "POP needs to vanish" |
| 23:09.12 | Sc0rpius | POP already vanished :/ |
| 23:09.40 | DocScrutinizer05 | all my other accounts work on POP just fine |
| 23:10.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | many freemailers don't even offer IMAP |
| 23:10.23 | DocScrutinizer05 | *all* offer POP |
| 23:12.59 | Sc0rpius | Gmail who rules the world |
| 23:13.01 | Sc0rpius | only offer IMAPs |
| 23:13.06 | Sc0rpius | everybody else will follow |
| 23:13.16 | DocScrutinizer05 | no |
| 23:13.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | since that's google |
| 23:13.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | only fools follow google |
| 23:14.02 | DocScrutinizer05 | and of course google offers only services that keep their usrs online as often as possible |
| 23:14.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | how else would google track them, and spam them |
| 23:15.18 | merlin1991 | hm I run my own smptp/imap and I'm happy with it |
| 23:16.01 | DocScrutinizer05 | I guess you have identical mail setup on all your devices, even N900? |
| 23:16.08 | Sc0rpius | I configured Gmail to read all my accounts and I just IMAP them and I'm very happy with it |
| 23:16.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | sure, and google is *very* happy with that X-P |
| 23:17.34 | DocScrutinizer05 | google is the only mail provider that explicitly says they will analyze each single mail they forward |
| 23:18.02 | ShadowJK | outlook.com ;-) |
| 23:19.26 | DocScrutinizer05 | so much for the superior security of IMAP over POP |
| 23:20.53 | DocScrutinizer05 | well, anyway it seems to stop IMAP shit from occasionally erasing mails from my local PCs, I need a patched mail client |
| 23:22.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | btw it's not unheard that *mail providers* delete mails in your account |
| 23:23.09 | DocScrutinizer05 | by timeout, storage limit, but also to 'revoke' unpleasant mails they want make disappear. |
| 23:24.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | hooray for IMAP that allows to actually erase those mails from all your PCs' HDDs as well |
| 23:25.13 | DocScrutinizer05 | suspects Amazon delivers their e-books via IMAP as well |
| 23:25.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | at least they can do same shit, delete books from your reader, no matter you've already paid for them |
| 23:26.33 | Sc0rpius | that would be like... 1 book for me |
| 23:26.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, call me old fashioned and silly, I don't like such concept |
| 23:26.42 | Sc0rpius | I still buy "paper" books |
| 23:26.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | not for books and not for mails |
| 23:30.50 | DocScrutinizer05 | now honestly: receiving a mail with a 10MB inline data, that I want to use on my laptop and on my PC. I need to recover the space on server though. How am I supposed to move that mail to MyDocs on one PC and keep it from vanishing on the other device 3 minutes later? |
| 23:32.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | or make that 15,000 old mails that I want to move to archives on 2 PCs |
| 23:32.03 | Sc0rpius | a 10 MB mail is a mail that should have not existed |
| 23:32.24 | Sc0rpius | mail servers should limit mail data to like 1 MB and force people to upload their big attachments somewhere else and put the link in the mail and that's it |
| 23:32.31 | DocScrutinizer05 | your "should" and "should not" starts to annoy me |
| 23:33.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | you seem to be one of those who think when they forbid large mails, nobody will send large mails to them anymore |
| 23:33.33 | Sc0rpius | in your case you have to copy the mail in every PC after you delete it from the server. |
| 23:33.38 | Sc0rpius | BEFORE you delete it, I mean |
| 23:33.51 | DocScrutinizer05 | the world won't ask what you thin "should" or "should not" be |
| 23:34.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | think* |
| 23:34.09 | Sc0rpius | the idea of forbidding large mails is to avoid clients stalling downloading a big mail when maybe you have 20 mails after it more important that you won't see |
| 23:34.26 | Sc0rpius | actually the world thinks more like I think |
| 23:34.50 | Sc0rpius | most mail servers limit mail data to like 10 MB actually. |
| 23:35.04 | DocScrutinizer05 | indeed, at least most people seem to share that one particular notion |
| 23:35.07 | Sc0rpius | if you try to send something bigger you get an SMTP error |
| 23:35.22 | DocScrutinizer05 | funny enough that's almost only thing they share |
| 23:35.32 | Sc0rpius | heh not really |
| 23:35.57 | Sc0rpius | like I said, most people who doesn't use web based mails use IMAP |
| 23:36.23 | Sc0rpius | most workplaces have IMAP only, so if you want to read your work's mail, IMAP is your only choice |
| 23:36.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm not going to continiuue that debate with you, I don't like people forcefeeding me their better concepts by trying to abolish or forbid what *I* want |
| 23:36.39 | Sc0rpius | that means the world still thinks like me |
| 23:36.58 | Sc0rpius | what you want is for everybody to go back to the 70s |
| 23:37.05 | Sc0rpius | and sorry that's not gonna happen |
| 23:37.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | I tend to get insulting after a while during those discussions, so I better go afk |
| 23:37.48 | Sc0rpius | the future is cloud computing, everything in servers, clients will be just keyboards, screens and a network card, no hard disks |
| 23:37.55 | Sc0rpius | not even game consoles will have games locally |
| 23:37.58 | DocScrutinizer05 | what I want is anybody doing anything???? now you're starting to really sound stupid |
| 23:38.02 | Sc0rpius | everything is going where you don't wanna go |
| 23:38.23 | Sc0rpius | I'm only suggesting you should ADAPT |
| 23:38.27 | Sc0rpius | it's your problem if you don't want to |
| 23:38.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | THAt WILL NOT HAPPEN! |
| 23:38.44 | DocScrutinizer05 | stop suggesting stuff to me! |
| 23:39.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | I'm not going to continiuue that debate with you, I don't like people forcefeeding me their better concepts by trying to abolish or forbid what *I* want |
| 23:41.26 | ShadowJK | It's kinda funny, the feature you're using of pop3 is stuff that mail clients bolted on as a hack to try emulate imap when using pop :-) |
| 23:41.48 | Sc0rpius | the "keep mail on servers" thing right? |
| 23:41.54 | Sc0rpius | that's a hack. |
| 23:42.11 | ShadowJK | yeah, and especially ability to delete mails without deleting them on server, when using pop3 |
| 23:42.15 | Sc0rpius | the RFC says you should delete the mail the very instant you download it. |
| 23:42.47 | Sc0rpius | but yeah, at the time those clients took advantage of the weakness of the protocol |
| 23:43.49 | ShadowJK | It reminds me of the secondary backup function my server does, every mail that it ever fetches gets copied into a big mbox. So, in theory I can "replay" the stream if incoming emails in case I accidentally delete something or lose something :-) |
| 23:44.33 | Sc0rpius | I actually grin when I lose an email. It's my excuse to say "I never got that" at work |
| 23:44.45 | ShadowJK | hah |
| 23:48.57 | DocScrutinizer05 | heard this bullshit about lean clients and whatnot first time 20 years ago. Still not seeing it in real life |
| 23:49.33 | ShadowJK | Well we had to wait for the lean and mean quadcore i7 to run the javascript first |
| 23:51.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | since no sane company will store their documents in a cloud, not even in a pink pony cloud |
| 23:51.56 | DocScrutinizer05 | and sooner or later each time they tried to roll that shit, the people finally noticed it's introducing a single point of failure |
| 23:52.33 | DocScrutinizer05 | which, to make matters wors, is not under their control for this BS cloud nonsense |
