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| 09:52.47 | AapoRantalainen | I'm planning to push new game to the extras-devel, but it needs one workaround (unless it crash on startup): "echo style=GTK+ >> /home/user/.config/Trolltech.conf", what would be equality without messing users configs? |
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| 13:28.45 | kerio | wtf is Trolltech.conf? |
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| 13:30.57 | merlin1991 | kerio: that's Qt related |
| 13:31.03 | merlin1991 | qt used to be made by trolltech |
| 13:31.15 | kerio | why would i have qt in the style of gtk+? |
| 13:31.29 | merlin1991 | i guess some legacy code still uses trolltech as a company name when accessing settings |
| 13:34.57 | kerio | AapoRantalainen: will that change have a chance of breaking anything else? |
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| 13:50.36 | merlin1991 | hm bug #12652 looks serious |
| 13:50.37 | povbot_ | Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/12652 WiFi bad 50_ipv4_network_setup script drains battery after disconnect |
| 13:51.34 | merlin1991 | Sc0rpius: please have a look @ bug #12037 |
| 13:51.35 | povbot_ | Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/12037 Add push support to modest without depending on ovi mail |
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| 14:01.15 | merlin1991 | andre__: I see you've been busy with tracking upstream trackers? :D |
| 14:01.32 | merlin1991 | how do you manage to stay on top of that amount of bugreports? |
| 14:02.02 | andre__ | merlin1991, I just went thru the CVE list of mitre |
| 14:02.11 | andre__ | and looked for debian and redhat |
| 14:02.28 | merlin1991 | :) |
| 14:02.50 | merlin1991 | people have been piling up work since I've gone on vacation |
| 14:03.08 | merlin1991 | I'll probably need 2 days to get everything done that is at my hands by now xD |
| 14:05.28 | merlin1991 | I'm almost finished doing my mails now :D |
| 14:08.51 | merlin1991 | the kind of spam I get lately is worrying |
| 14:10.46 | merlin1991 | DocScrutinizer05: ping |
| 14:16.58 | merlin1991 | hm I sort of have to laugh when I read point #4 here: http://maemo.org/community/council/council_logs_for_meeting_on_august_10th-2012/ |
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| 14:44.26 | chem|st | merlin1991: darn hell... having two weeks off seems to let people stop working till I am back |
| 14:45.20 | merlin1991 | chem|st: we should talk about the next stable release when I'm back from spain, it's about time that one happens :D |
| 14:47.00 | chem|st | merlin1991: I am all setup, just need guideance once or twice ;) and yeah it is about time, I am off again Sept. 7th - 16th |
| 14:47.22 | merlin1991 | phew we've a short timeframe from 1st to 7th then :D |
| 14:48.04 | chem|st | ok, I will have 3rd-5th from the looks of now |
| 14:48.32 | chem|st | need to talk with my gf about the upcoming weekends, will keep you posted |
| 14:49.53 | chem|st | anything I can do without you yet? |
| 14:51.04 | merlin1991 | compare the state of devel and stable and think about what changes that are not in stable would be sensible to add ("new" packages that are only in testing aswell as things that are already in stable but have seen updates since) |
| 14:51.16 | chem|st | oh and 11th-14th I might be available too as I am with my sister and it shouldn't be a problem to have spare time especially as she is waiting for the next release ;) |
| 14:52.16 | merlin1991 | well I'm gone to spain 25th (August) till 1st, after that I should be able to arrange pretty much everything |
| 14:52.33 | chem|st | that sounds good to me |
| 14:52.45 | merlin1991 | err also I meant compare the state of -testing and -stable |
| 14:52.52 | chem|st | got it yes |
| 14:52.55 | merlin1991 | -devel is yet another story :D |
| 14:54.51 | merlin1991 | chem|st: hint: http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU/Changelog and http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU/ChangelogStable are good to compare stuff :D |
| 14:55.16 | chem|st | will have a look tonight |
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| 15:21.08 | kerio | merlin1991: changes you should really make: operator-name-cbs-widget should hold the actual files, and it should provide and replace connui-home-cellular |
| 15:21.48 | kerio | right now, -devel has o-n-c-w as a transitional package, and connui-home-cellular is actually updated |
| 15:22.07 | kerio | which would be hell for me, because it's horrendously broken |
| 15:25.46 | kerio | i should tell pali this, actually |
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| 19:49.48 | DocScrutinizer06 | merlin1991: I'm totally resolved |
| 19:50.59 | merlin1991 | DocScrutinizer06: about what? |
| 19:51.20 | DocScrutinizer06 | abut #4 |
| 19:51.45 | DocScrutinizer06 | and totally dissolved by the weather |
| 19:52.35 | merlin1991 | #4? now I'm even more confused |
| 19:52.54 | DocScrutinizer06 | [2012-08-20 16:16:58] <merlin1991> hm I sort of have to laugh when I read point #4 here: http://maemo.org/community/council/council_logs_for_meeting_on_august_10th-2012/ |
| 19:53.28 | merlin1991 | oh :P |
| 19:53.40 | merlin1991 | I never got past the first half of the "resolved" sentence xD |
| 19:53.52 | DocScrutinizer06 | sure you have to laugh, since that's yet another effort for an "anfriendly takeover" |
| 19:53.57 | merlin1991 | I was more amused by the "CSSU team looks to have stabilized where they are going" |
| 19:54.24 | DocScrutinizer06 | may I translate? |
| 19:54.42 | Estel_ | I must admit I laughed very hard when reading it... |
| 19:54.52 | merlin1991 | DocScrutinizer06: humor me |
| 19:55.01 | DocScrutinizer06 | you won't be amused |
| 19:55.19 | merlin1991 | well then enlighten me |
| 19:55.21 | DocScrutinizer06 | since my translation is dark sarcasm like usual |
| 19:55.25 | Estel_ | seriously though, I'm sure that ivgalvez doesn't have any "malicious intentions", and he was the one attending (more or less) to that metting |
| 19:55.39 | Estel_ | s/metting/meeting/ |
| 19:55.41 | Estel_ | mating ;) |
| 19:56.43 | Estel_ | thinking about what council may think - as people outside cssu - move away from 2134242 versions of cssu floating around (including thumb one) is a "decide where cssu is going", for them |
| 19:57.02 | DocScrutinizer06 | it seems they propagated some misconception about what CSSU-kernel will look like, and that now everybody agrees on what to do regarding that |
| 19:57.04 | Estel_ | from a "regular user" perspective, so many versions floating was a little mess |
| 19:57.32 | merlin1991 | well it's still the same amount, 4 nothing to change there |
| 19:57.44 | Estel_ | You're overexagerrating things, they're just happy that cssu will contain thumb ;P |
| 19:58.13 | merlin1991 | DocScrutinizer06: http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2012-August/028936.html |
| 19:58.33 | Estel_ | merlin1991, I'm very interested in CSSU, so I - more or less - know what is going inside. But, I can imagine, that for average user, it's kinda unknown where it's heading and what was decided during last meeting. Thus their idea about minutes. |
| 19:59.01 | Estel_ | While I don't agree with what 3/4 of Council is doing, (or 7/10?), trying to be fair, i don't see any "unfriendly takeover" thyere |
| 19:59.45 | Estel_ | unfriendly takeover will happen, when they will take TMO database, repos, etc, under "hildon foundation" (they've created) wings, without referendum :P |
| 19:59.50 | DocScrutinizer06 | merlin1991: :nod: |
| 20:00.28 | Estel_ | merlin1991, for me mailing list entry is enough, but I'm 99% sure that they are not aware about this letter |
| 20:00.38 | Estel_ | + annoucement in maemo.org news would be great |
| 20:00.56 | merlin1991 | Estel_: my main point of humor is, if I look at "CSSU team looks to have stabilized where they are going" I fail to see when we got off the track :D |
| 20:00.58 | Estel_ | which is funny, as they're ones that can make such annoucement, copying it from mailing list, as CSSU doesn't have access for posting news |
| 20:01.07 | Estel_ | merlin1991, yea |
| 20:01.09 | merlin1991 | Estel_: I just wrote that mail today |
| 20:01.15 | Estel_ | it was written in hopeless way |
| 20:01.15 | DocScrutinizer06 | maemo.org news = MWKN? |
| 20:01.27 | Estel_ | DocScrutinizer06, no, news on maemo.org "news" section |
| 20:01.37 | DocScrutinizer06 | umm |
| 20:01.50 | Estel_ | merlin1991, blame Woody, he write those "summaries" everytime, and they're kinda offensive many times |
| 20:02.19 | Estel_ | DocScrutinizer06, as for MWKN, sopmeone could just ping Generalantillies or Jaffa about it |
| 20:02.28 | Estel_ | it deserves to be covered in MWKN |
| 20:02.37 | merlin1991 | come on Estel, I also didn't say it was bad/offensive/whatever I just stated that reading it gave me a good laugh at the time :D |
| 20:02.44 | Estel_ | nods |
| 20:03.04 | Estel_ | sure, "offensive" was just my perception (and iot seems that I'm not alone, as DocScrutinizer06 wrote about "unfriendly takeover") |
| 20:03.21 | Estel_ | somehow, it kinda sounds like such "unfriendly takeoveR", i'm just sure that it wasn't their intention |
| 20:03.31 | Estel_ | I agree that it's nothing more than material for a good laugh |
| 20:03.35 | Estel_ | and no real problem |
| 20:04.57 | DocScrutinizer06 | my unfriendly takeover quote been a feeling I varbalized that stemmed from this chan latest battles/rand/bitching as well as reading the meeting logs |
| 20:05.18 | DocScrutinizer06 | rant* |
| 20:06.11 | Estel_ | meeting logs = meeting about cssu or council's meeting? I admit I haven't seen the latter |
| 20:06.20 | DocScrutinizer06 | council |
| 20:06.45 | Estel_ | I see. BTW, You were battling/ranting/bitching with council here? Or, if not, who is the "unfriendly takeover" deus ex machina? |
| 20:06.50 | DocScrutinizer06 | rather #maemo-meeting |
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| 20:07.01 | DocScrutinizer06 | nope |
| 20:07.02 | Estel_ | is going to read those logs |
| 20:07.12 | merlin1991 | hm is there somewhere a proper page to see latest packages that got added to the maemo.org repos? |
| 20:07.33 | DocScrutinizer06 | lol, somebody else asked that 3 days ago |
| 20:07.46 | DocScrutinizer06 | he asked for a dpkg or apt cmd though |
| 20:08.02 | merlin1991 | well I'm more interested on the repository side :) |
| 20:08.19 | merlin1991 | reading the second sentence of ##Topic3 in http://maemo.org/community/council/community_council_meeting-august_17th-2012/ |
| 20:08.24 | DocScrutinizer06 | need to repeat a post my carrier ate, over at #maemo |
| 20:08.26 | DocScrutinizer06 | bbl |
| 20:08.30 | Estel_ | I've jsut finished reading logs (amazing, only few dozens of lines...) |
| 20:08.59 | Estel_ | what I'm more worried about, is pursue to push Hildon Foundation as owner of TMO and repos data, without asking anyone (i.e. Communityt) via referendum |
| 20:09.54 | Estel_ | sure, anyone can continue work on maemo after nokia pull plugs, but not everyone will got access to tmo and repositories (COBS) thing. Claiming such access, as "board of directors" without referendum is something I would call "unfriendly takeover" |
| 20:10.23 | Estel_ | what amazes me even more, is that no one seems to be really interested in referendum about it - well, maybe I'm the only one concerned (citching?) about it |
| 20:10.55 | merlin1991 | hm just read the chanlog of #maemo-meeting, it seems that someone made a mistake when writing the minutes |
| 20:11.31 | Estel_ | which feels strange, as I though that DocScrutinizer06 will be loudest person advocating need for referendum, before pushing changes that change Council bylaws, and before putting precious database under wings of 3rd party organisation :|D |
| 20:12.14 | Estel_ | merlin1991, noo, it's just that person writing minutes have quite strange interpretation of logs, and enforce them into minutes. He have a big history of doing so |
| 20:12.41 | Estel_ | probably just abusing fact, that 90% of people read minutes, not full logs, so he can "shape facts" by writing minutes that doesn't reffer precisely to logs. |
| 20:12.55 | Estel_ | at least my POV, feel free to disagree |
| 20:16.03 | DocScrutinizer06 | err, sorry, what's the change of council responsibilities and duties, and esp the change in community's influence on council, when some nerds mess with tmo? (not that I like the idea) |
| 20:17.20 | DocScrutinizer06 | also I seem to recall somebody said it's nonsense to elect/appoint an interim council/other-entity now for just 5 weeks, OWTTE |
| 20:18.17 | DocScrutinizer06 | honestly I never cared about council too much, since they are not my boss but my servant, and I usually don't need a servant |
| 20:19.26 | DocScrutinizer06 | I just feel pissed when a hobo stands in front of my door, unwashed and stinking, and tells everybody he's my valet |
| 20:20.01 | Estel_ | DocScrutinizer06, well, hildon's foundation will have board of directors, that will manage finances too |
| 20:20.08 | DocScrutinizer06 | but honestly, I don't feel like opening up that barrel again |
| 20:20.12 | Estel_ | and are going to got access 0 from Nokia and Nemein - to COBS |
| 20:20.18 | Estel_ | and TMO database from Reggie. |
| 20:20.45 | merlin1991 | well Reggie is free todo what he wants with that db |
| 20:20.46 | Estel_ | i.e when nokia pulls plug off, Hildon foundation expects to get all community belongings under foundation' |
| 20:20.52 | Estel_ | foundation's weings* |
| 20:20.59 | Estel_ | that's VERY different from current Council's tasks. |
| 20:21.07 | Estel_ | merlin1991, he isn't, as he is contracted with Nokia |
| 20:21.25 | Estel_ | also, he agreed that database is belonging to Community |
| 20:21.26 | DocScrutinizer06 | yep, and that's exactly what I thought council is supposed to take care about |
| 20:21.55 | Estel_ | the thing is, that theoretically, everyone is free to continue Maemo spirit in any way - via registering legal entity, etc... |
| 20:21.58 | merlin1991 | hm I don't know the full details, but I got the picture that while he is contracted to keep the forums running, it is still "his" forum |
| 20:21.58 | Estel_ | or other means |
| 20:22.05 | Estel_ | merlin1991, thats true. |
| 20:22.35 | Estel_ | well, the problem, as seen by me, is that one of efforts to continue Maemo feels that it's entitled *more* than any other to get hand on community belongings, without actual referendum |
| 20:23.04 | DocScrutinizer06 | has anybody managed meanwhile to ask Reggie why he wouldn't want to continue forum in the form it's now, just with money from other source? |
| 20:23.12 | Estel_ | personally, i don't see a problem in Hildon Foundation managing Community belongings, but I think that Community should be at least asked. Maybe bylaws proposed by Hildon Foundation are a no-go for most of Community? |
| 20:23.18 | DocScrutinizer06 | or rather IF he wouldn't |
| 20:23.19 | Estel_ | Maybe they would like other way of organising itself? |
| 20:23.35 | Estel_ | DocScrutinizer06, he answered that he is not interested |
| 20:23.50 | DocScrutinizer06 | when, to whom? |
| 20:23.52 | DocScrutinizer06 | where? |
| 20:23.56 | Estel_ | besides that, hildon foundation isn't entirely eager to pay for vbulletin license |
| 20:24.11 | Estel_ | some thread on TMO, can't find it now, but it was started by Council AFAIK |
| 20:24.15 | Estel_ | and was related to TMO future |
| 20:24.30 | DocScrutinizer06 | suckers |
| 20:24.31 | Estel_ | IIRC, vbulletin license fees were discussed there, too |
| 20:25.00 | Estel_ | well, honestly, personally, I would preffer Open Source engine for powering forums - it's hillarous to use propertiary vbulleting for thing like Maemo |
| 20:25.05 | Estel_ | but that's minor thing |
| 20:25.08 | DocScrutinizer06 | those friggin few hundered / year |
| 20:25.30 | Estel_ | main problem, from my POV, is that Council doesn't see need for using existing mechanism - referendum - to ask Community, before taking overCommunity belongings |
| 20:25.44 | Estel_ | and only rationale for that is, that they think "referendum take too much time" |
| 20:25.51 | Estel_ | which isn't good omen for future |
| 20:25.53 | Estel_ | IMO. |
| 20:26.04 | DocScrutinizer06 | referendum on WHAT? |
| 20:26.25 | Estel_ | on granting Hildon Foundation repository access, and databases of forum/wiki etc |
| 20:26.50 | Estel_ | i.e. asking if people want exactly this entity to continue Maemo work. If community trust this idea, agree with bylaws, etc |
| 20:27.13 | DocScrutinizer06 | that's not the way the world works |
| 20:27.32 | Estel_ | it's like disbanding old organisation - including current bylaws for Council (and whole Council) and replacing it with board of directors, that have *much* more power |
| 20:27.43 | Estel_ | and are essentialy mix of steering group + treasurer's with access to money |
| 20:27.44 | DocScrutinizer06 | nope |
| 20:27.57 | DocScrutinizer06 | since council wasn't involved in any of that so far |
| 20:28.00 | Estel_ | DocScrutinizer06, have You seen proposed bylaws for hildon foundation?:P |
| 20:28.06 | Estel_ | LOL, wut? |
| 20:28.09 | merlin1991 | Estel_: afaik nobody has |
| 20:28.13 | Estel_ | Council is *very* involved in that |
| 20:28.17 | merlin1991 | except council |
| 20:28.28 | Estel_ | merlin1991, what nobody has? |
| 20:28.35 | Estel_ | it was presented on mailing list |
| 20:28.40 | merlin1991 | missed that |
| 20:29.00 | Estel_ | there were some suggestions from community - low ammount of ones, as it's usually on mailing list (when it's not about freebie devices :P ) |
| 20:29.01 | merlin1991 | -developers -community -users, which one? |
| 20:29.11 | Estel_ | it was meant to land on TMO too, but it's already a month overdue |
| 20:29.17 | Estel_ | main one, maemo-community |
| 20:29.46 | DocScrutinizer06 | I'm trusting in those who are responsible for the privacy-relevant data right now, that they won't give it to any random dude asking for it. That's meritocracy |
| 20:29.54 | Estel_ | DocScrutinizer06, even Your reaction seems to confirm what i'mconcerned about - group of people is re-creating Maemo namagement, and 90% of people doesn't even know about it... |
| 20:30.09 | Estel_ | DocScrutinizer06, they *will* give it to random dudes from Council, up[on requiest |
| 20:30.12 | Estel_ | that's the point |
| 20:30.38 | Estel_ | which essentialy elevates Council's permissions, without asking Community via referendum, if that's acceptable |
| 20:31.08 | Estel_ | I'm not saying that it's so bad that Community won't agree. i'm just saying that referendum should take place, after discussing bylaws and forming it's final shape |
| 20:31.23 | Estel_ | otherwise, all discussions about "how bylaws should look" is just fasade |
| 20:31.37 | DocScrutinizer06 | hell, then they must have shit in their skull. Not even the boss of a company may access the user credetials database, that's unique exclusive responsibility of sysadmin |
| 20:32.04 | Estel_ | after all, why care, if it's not going to be voted by Community, after all? 4 people from Council can place *anything* there, if they're not going to held referendum about agreement for bylaws |
| 20:32.39 | Estel_ | DocScrutinizer06, the thing is that via bylaws, if Nokia pulls the plug off, Board of Directors become, in practice, sysadmin mixed with keeping hand on money from donations mixed with steering group |
| 20:32.42 | Estel_ | aka omnipotent |
| 20:33.00 | DocScrutinizer06 | eeeeeek |
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| 20:33.15 | Estel_ | well, maybe that's what Community want - if so, i'm not going to argue. But referendum is for asking such things |
| 20:33.26 | DocScrutinizer06 | opens up the locker with the heavy calibres |
| 20:33.32 | Estel_ | finally :P |
| 20:33.59 | Estel_ | via byalws, in current form, board of directors replaces Council - probably elected via next election - and this board of directors is representing hildon foundation |
| 20:34.05 | Estel_ | board of directors appoint treasurer |
| 20:34.18 | Estel_ | which may be one of directors or someone else, and keep hand on donations for foundation |
| 20:34.37 | Estel_ | at the same time, foundation - rules by board of directors - have access to repositorries, databases etc (aka being practically main sysadmin) |
| 20:34.40 | DocScrutinizer06 | well, that's fair |
| 20:34.54 | DocScrutinizer06 | donations are not to community after all |
| 20:35.06 | DocScrutinizer06 | I'm absolutely not interested in money |
| 20:35.13 | Estel_ | now, when someone tells me, that before such changesd, referendum shouldn't be run, because "it takes time", I'm little dissapointed, to say at least |
| 20:35.29 | DocScrutinizer06 | I'm interested in common sense, democracy/meritocracy, and *my* data |
| 20:35.30 | Estel_ | DocScrutinizer06, that's true, but at the same time, mix money with "sysadmin" things... |
| 20:36.08 | Estel_ | DocScrutinizer06, sure, + access to maemo repositories, wiki database, IRC channels, and so goes on |
| 20:36.09 | Estel_ | board of director may or may not still cooperate with nemein about that |
| 20:36.33 | Estel_ | they can as good choose other admin, or nominate someone - from board or outside - to do what x-fade do now |
| 20:37.06 | Estel_ | (using money from donations, which is fair, but at the same time, they're going to get access to *currently* usaed infrastructure, like IRC channels, wiki, probably TMO database, COBS repositories...) |
| 20:37.16 | DocScrutinizer06 | It will take some time to catch up on what's going on, and that allone is a bad sign. another bad criterion is: I don't have that time ATM |
| 20:37.46 | Estel_ | I'm also not concerned about money itself - after all, if someone donate money for hildon foundation, he should be aware of bylaws and accept it. I'm concerned about handing currently used databases - COBS, etc - to this foundation, without asking anyone about opinion |
| 20:38.22 | Estel_ | DocScrutinizer06, sure. I also see it mroe as a bad sign for future, than a fully emerged problem - YET. |
| 20:38.45 | Estel_ | the sad thing is that up to now, I was, probably, only one person concerned about that, and I'm not going to play Don Kichot ;P |
| 20:38.55 | DocScrutinizer06 | I'll not accept any sysop introduced by any board, when the former sysop disagrees |
| 20:39.01 | DocScrutinizer06 | easy as that |
| 20:39.15 | Estel_ | sure, but who was "main boss" of former sysop? |
| 20:39.17 | DocScrutinizer06 | be it COPS, TMO, whatever |
| 20:39.40 | DocScrutinizer06 | doesn't matter, the sysop is my friend, not his boss |
| 20:39.43 | Estel_ | I would say "community", through Nokia middle-man. And it would be fair to ask Community, if it's what is wanted |
| 20:40.04 | DocScrutinizer06 | for TMO that's quite obviously been Reggie |
| 20:40.13 | Estel_ | sysop will agree, as sysop sees Council role differently than You. As a governing body, more than a servant. |
| 20:40.13 | DocScrutinizer06 | for the other stuff prolly x-fade |
| 20:40.18 | Estel_ | yea |
| 20:40.44 | DocScrutinizer06 | well, if my sysop thinks that's the way to do, what can I do? |
| 20:40.58 | Estel_ | last time I checked, reggie wasn't sure what to do, but X-Fade is all ok for cooperation with Council, as community representatives. I see this as good thing, but I'm sure that when people elected Councilors, it wasn't = give them right to become sysops |
| 20:41.03 | Estel_ | or change rules about sysops |
| 20:41.12 | DocScrutinizer06 | tell him "delete my account incl all data, or prepare some cake for my visit"? |
| 20:41.21 | Estel_ | hehe |
| 20:42.07 | Estel_ | well, sysop doesn't need to be entirely informed about current situation inside Community, and who is entitled to do what. In My opinionb, council isn't entitled to pretend that it;s owner of data - including Your data - without asking Community via referendum |
| 20:42.07 | DocScrutinizer06 | x-fade cooperating doesn't mean he will hand sysop "key" to council |
| 20:42.29 | Estel_ | I'm afraid it means exactly that - he will handle keys to hildon foundation, upon nokia's pulling the plug off |
| 20:42.51 | Estel_ | reportedly, qgil confirmed, that maemo.org domain will be handled to hildon foundation (which means it may be called maemo foundation, after all) |
| 20:42.53 | DocScrutinizer06 | *sigh* |
| 20:42.59 | DocScrutinizer06 | complicated stuff |
| 20:43.00 | DocScrutinizer06 | AGAIN |
| 20:43.03 | Estel_ | my concern is - sure, but why no referendum before that? |
| 20:43.06 | Estel_ | yea |
| 20:43.18 | DocScrutinizer06 | had the very same shit 4 months ago, with openmoko infra |
| 20:43.41 | Estel_ | it just seems that both Nokia and Nemein see Council s *governing* body, and council is eager to use that to obtain rights, when in fact, it *should* include asking via referendum first |
| 20:43.46 | Estel_ | as it essentialy elevate Council permissions. |
| 20:43.50 | Estel_ | to dangerous level. |
| 20:44.02 | Estel_ | hm, how it ended? (openmoko infra) |
| 20:44.16 | merlin1991 | also from where did it start? |
| 20:44.31 | Estel_ | basically, from my POV, Nokia and Nemein thinks "Council is Community representative, so if Community doesn't protest, Council can obtain all rights" |
| 20:44.31 | DocScrutinizer06 | no referendum needed. Council is MANAGER of accounts, by NO MEANS they may *use* those accounts |
| 20:44.51 | DocScrutinizer06 | that would be gross |
| 20:44.54 | Estel_ | and that's quite sane, after all, if Community don't care to opt for referendum and protest in case of it's lacking, why Nokia or nemein should (care)? |
| 20:44.54 | DocScrutinizer06 | rogue |
| 20:45.04 | Estel_ | define "use" |
| 20:45.19 | DocScrutinizer06 | log in |
| 20:45.24 | Estel_ | nods |
| 20:45.28 | DocScrutinizer06 | play "sysadmin" |
| 20:45.45 | DocScrutinizer06 | do administrative work on the technical level |
| 20:45.48 | Estel_ | and if Council, renamed to Noard of Directors, don't log in personally, but nominate - in their discretion - someone as new sysadmin? isn't it the same thing as "using" it? |
| 20:46.00 | Estel_ | bylaws grant them such rights. |
| 20:46.11 | DocScrutinizer06 | council may appoint a new sysadmin, and ask community if that's OK |
| 20:46.20 | Estel_ | well, not entirely "them" - the new Board of Directors, that is to be elected in time of usual Council's election |
| 20:46.33 | Estel_ | well, scrap "ask community if that';s is okj" and you have view on situation |
| 20:46.43 | DocScrutinizer06 | sure |
| 20:46.44 | Estel_ | merlin1991, it started with Nokia going to pull the polug, obviously |
| 20:46.52 | merlin1991 | on openmoko? |
| 20:47.21 | DocScrutinizer06 | depends on integrity of council dudes if they understand what to do when you're the lord keykeeper |
| 20:47.26 | merlin1991 | My question was in the same context as yours about the openmoko infra |
| 20:47.42 | Estel_ | well, in my opinion, 90% of people voting for new Council (renamed to Board of Directors), are not going to acknmowledge, that at the same time they're acceptiong bylaws of new foundation, and giving it rights - in eyes of Nokia and Nemein - to obtain sysadmin rights |
| 20:47.57 | Estel_ | nods at merlin1991 |
| 20:49.06 | Estel_ | basically, as per my knowledge and understanding, Council stands on position, that people voting for new board of directors = instead of next Council, soon - are also voting for granting such board rights to be keykeeper (and use keys, on it's discretion) |
| 20:49.51 | Estel_ | but where is option to vote for *not* granting keys? Someone not voting isn't voting for "no". |
| 20:49.56 | DocScrutinizer06 | that's a silly obvious thing that the boss of sysadmin MUSt NOT be sysadmin, and the sysadmin MUST NOT be his own boss |
| 20:49.59 | Estel_ | he is jsut not counted |
| 20:50.35 | Estel_ | sure, but if board of directors can nominate anyone to be sysadmin, without asking anyone's opinion, it's virtually the same as being sysadmin thyemselves |
| 20:51.05 | DocScrutinizer06 | not exactly |
| 20:51.07 | Estel_ | my main concern is "who the hellgive them right to manage maemo's repositories, databases, etc, without referendum, i.e. asking Community"? |
| 20:51.28 | DocScrutinizer06 | since Council has to stand a public discussion of all they do |
| 20:51.30 | Estel_ | well, to say it hard way - You can nominate Your own dog to be sysadmin. (exaggerating things) |
| 20:51.40 | DocScrutinizer06 | which is exactly what a sysadmin never will accept |
| 20:51.40 | Estel_ | Council - yes, but Board of Directorts - no |
| 20:51.53 | Estel_ | that's why I'm talking about elevating Council permissions |
| 20:51.59 | Estel_ | which should require referendum |
| 20:52.09 | DocScrutinizer06 | no such vote from me |
| 20:52.20 | Estel_ | in reality, during transfer from Council -> Board of directors, they're also, silently, elevating permissions |
| 20:52.22 | DocScrutinizer06 | Council is just fine with the power it has |
| 20:52.29 | Estel_ | well, current Council statute tells, that changes to it require referendum |
| 20:52.31 | DocScrutinizer06 | It mustn't get any more than now |
| 20:52.46 | Estel_ | IMO, elevating permissions - alongside renaming to Board of directors - is as good as changing statute |
| 20:53.03 | DocScrutinizer06 | indeed, you got a point there |
| 20:53.21 | DocScrutinizer06 | anyway, please let me come home from my job |
| 20:53.21 | Estel_ | well, they're overcoming this obstacle by na "trick" (even if without malicious intentions) - instead of changing council statute, they disband Council, and form Board of Directors, via new elections |
| 20:53.22 | DocScrutinizer06 | afk |
| 20:53.43 | Estel_ | this way, they think, that they can obtain more rights, without referendum required for changing Council statute (as Council won't exist anymore, replaced by board of directors) |
| 20:53.51 | Estel_ | OK |
| 20:53.58 | Estel_ | no problem, You have terrible working hours :) |
| 20:54.01 | Estel_ | see ya later |
| 20:54.07 | DocScrutinizer06 | council can't abandom council |
| 20:54.15 | Estel_ | well, it's exactly the plan now :) |
| 20:54.31 | DocScrutinizer06 | FIIIIIIRE!!! |
| 20:54.31 | Estel_ | in plans, current cadence is last cadence of council - next election will elect Board of Directors |
| 20:54.37 | Estel_ | nods |
| 20:54.49 | DocScrutinizer06 | load, and FIIIIRE! |
| 20:54.58 | Estel_ | well, wasn't I telling it from the very beginning eh? ;) |
| 20:55.17 | Estel_ | come back from work safely, and I'll try to find thread, where it's discussed |
| 20:55.20 | Estel_ | and post link here |
| 20:55.37 | DocScrutinizer06 | hmm, nice 15kTon nuclear device there in my locker |
| 20:55.53 | DocScrutinizer06 | only 50kg |
| 20:56.21 | DocScrutinizer06 | fine |
| 20:56.22 | DocScrutinizer06 | bbl |
| 20:56.54 | Estel_ | well, in Poland, we have old silly comedy "How I've started second world war" |
| 20:58.25 | DocScrutinizer06 | ooh, it seems it's even adjustable, has a dial ranging from 15 to 50 |
| 20:59.41 | Raimu | Goes well over eleven. |
| 20:59.46 | DocScrutinizer06 | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Atomic_Demolition_Munition |
| 21:01.40 | Estel_ | DocScrutinizer06, this looks like good place to show support for not agreeing to "unfriendly takeover". It's also thread when discussion about migrating infra is happening |
| 21:01.54 | Estel_ | it isn't obvious from first sight, but it's also about giving keys. |
| 21:02.01 | Estel_ | (aka sysadmin thing) |
| 21:02.32 | Estel_ | also, notice date of my last post, and fact that no one feel that it's necessary to answer - both from Council, and from rest of Community. Like, no one is interested in this sysadmin problem, at all |
| 21:02.45 | Estel_ | s/sysadmin/keykeeper/ |
| 21:03.11 | DocScrutinizer06 | nota bene I think Council is absolutely right entity to hand over keys from one sysadmin to another, in case the former sysadmin is silly enough to not insist in direct handover to his successor |
| 21:03.41 | DocScrutinizer06 | but hey have to understand that they are neither competent nor entitled to * |
| 21:03.47 | DocScrutinizer06 | use* those keys |
| 21:05.17 | DocScrutinizer06 | just like our president (not in Germany, but meh, you get the picture) can appoint judges, but never may play judge and sentence criminals |
| 21:05.52 | Estel_ | yea, I got the point |
| 21:06.29 | DocScrutinizer06 | the more power you got, the less you may use it |
| 21:06.31 | Estel_ | the nthing is that by bylaws, they can grant board of Directors whatever rights they want, to appoint judges, to be judge, etc, and they don't think it's - like changing Council statute - subject to referendum |
| 21:06.36 | *** join/#maemo-ssu bsdmaniak (~bsdmaniak@std93-20-88-120-139-80.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 21:07.09 | Estel_ | I don't accept POV, that disbanding Council and replacing it with BoD, with different "permissions granted", doesn't require referendum, and only changing current Council statutye require it |
| 21:07.12 | Estel_ | I just don't buy it |
| 21:07.26 | DocScrutinizer06 | they better get their asbestos underwear, if you're actually right on that |
| 21:07.32 | Estel_ | replacing council with different entity is *much more* than changing Council's statute, not *less* |
| 21:07.55 | Estel_ | well, in the topic I've linked You in |
| 21:07.55 | Estel_ | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1246220#post1246220 |
| 21:07.56 | Estel_ | damn |
| 21:08.02 | Estel_ | I wrote about it, but forget to link it :P |
| 21:08.03 | Estel_ | sorry |
| 21:08.06 | Estel_ | all my things from: |
| 21:08.13 | Estel_ | <Estel_> DocScrutinizer06, this looks like good place to show support for not agreeing to "unfriendly takeover". It's also thread when discussion about migrating infra is happening |
| 21:08.16 | Estel_ | were about this thread |
| 21:08.18 | Estel_ | <Estel_> DocScrutinizer06, this looks like good place to show support for not agreeing to "unfriendly takeover". It's also thread when discussion about migrating infra is happening |
| 21:08.21 | Estel_ | (sry) |
| 21:08.31 | Estel_ | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1246220#post1246220 |
| 21:08.35 | Estel_ | DocScrutinizer06, ^^^ |
| 21:08.58 | Estel_ | I just re-applied my question, as it was already unanswered for more than 2 weeks, so it's not latest post, but one before, that I've mentioned :P |
| 21:09.16 | Estel_ | hoever, this thread doesn't cover whole story, as part of it is presented in bylaws draft on mailing list |
| 21:09.21 | Estel_ | oor spread all over the place, generally |
| 21:09.41 | Estel_ | I think that is main reason why no one else protest - only few people have full picture, derived from compositing mailing list, TMO, council logs, etc |
| 21:09.45 | Estel_ | it |
| 21:10.16 | Estel_ | s like they - or at least chair - want to "slip" idea,s using fact, that not many people will protest, due to ideas being slipped in 24324324 places. |
| 21:10.35 | Estel_ | so, searching for mailing list post with bylaws draft may be good idea too |
| 21:10.42 | Estel_ | I think that merlin1991 is searching for it already :P |
| 21:11.05 | DocScrutinizer06 | GENERALANTILLES!!! |
| 21:11.15 | DocScrutinizer06 | Jaffa!!! |
| 21:11.29 | DocScrutinizer06 | what's that? |
| 21:12.14 | Estel_ | I dare to suggest, that they're as poorly informed about it, as You are ;) |
| 21:12.22 | Estel_ | (pure assumption, no proofs) |
| 21:13.18 | Estel_ | well, you know this rule of thumb? during turbulent times, like revolutions, hand-over of power etc, many "smartie" people tend to push bad laws without anyone noticing it early enough ;) |
| 21:13.30 | Estel_ | it's funny, how this real world things apply to "virtual" communities |
| 21:14.04 | DocScrutinizer06 | like UEFA-cups and football world chanpionship ;-P |
| 21:14.07 | Estel_ | ;P |
| 21:15.34 | DocScrutinizer06 | virtual worlds are as real as the other real world |
| 21:16.00 | DocScrutinizer06 | you're just wearing a different pair of socks |
| 21:20.43 | kerio | sees doc and estel talking in the backscroll |
| 21:20.46 | kerio | grabs some popcorn |
| 21:21.04 | Estel_ | why? we're not arguing, surprise! |
| 21:21.18 | Estel_ | instead of popcorn, grab Your own pair of uzi's and go to thread linked :p |
| 21:21.51 | kerio | :c |
| 21:56.35 | *** join/#maemo-ssu nox- (noident@freebsd/developer/nox) |
| 23:15.11 | *** join/#maemo-ssu M4rtinK (~M4rtinK@mail.melf.eu) |