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| 13:30.31 | guest94 | hi |
| 13:34.53 | teepee | hi guest94 |
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| 17:22.36 | srbhr[m] | Hey guys! Whoa this one place to have discussion. |
| 17:22.52 | srbhr[m] | I should have looked at this place before. |
| 17:25.00 | srbhr[m] | Now I have a question, if a mentor isn't available for a project is that a good reason to reject a proposal? |
| 17:25.00 | srbhr[m] | I mean mine was rejected after getting 3 times reviewed by two mentors. One for another project, and 2 times by the person who was it's mentor previously. But when the results came out, I was told that they didn't accept me as no one was there to mentor that project. |
| 17:26.29 | srbhr[m] | Shouldn't an organisation should mention that before putting up that project? Or could have informed the student for that? |
| 17:28.04 | teepee | if there never was any chance to have a mentor for that project, that would be strange indeed to list it |
| 17:28.56 | teepee | however it could be that there's a group of mentors for multiple projects, so decision could be (for example) to mentor one 1 student out of 2 projects |
| 17:30.16 | srbhr[m] | teepee: I don't know. Even out of the 8 selected students, I never saw/read any mail or anything of 4 of students. |
| 17:30.22 | srbhr[m] | I don't know how they were selected. And on what basis. |
| 17:30.57 | srbhr[m] | I was already done with 25% of that project. By End of April itself, out of enthusiasm and lockdown. |
| 17:32.53 | teepee | I can understand the frustration, but I can't guess what happened, just trying to give an additional perspective for understanding what can go on in an org |
| 17:33.01 | srbhr[m] | And yes ,the person who was to mentor my project(who reviewed it is mentoring someone else, but said to me that mentors were there for my project). I was just given a reason that there were no mentors for my project. That's all. Else I made a GitHub repo with my proposal and reason. |
| 17:33.38 | srbhr[m] | https://github.com/srbhr/GSOC20-Proposal |
| 17:33.40 | teepee | in the end only the final announcement is what counts - even if the org has enough mentors and is ready to go they might get fewer slots than requested |
| 17:38.02 | srbhr[m] | Yeah but I suppose 8 (slots) were enough to select out of 15-16(proposals). As some students weren't active on IRC or Mailing List. Or contributing already. Or doing anything. They just sent the proposals |
| 17:46.19 | PulkoMandy | each organization is mostly free to select their students how they want, but there are some rules still. Like if the mentor is from some university and the student also is, one could suspect that there is something going on in trying to get funding from Google for a somewhat unrelated project |
| 17:46.45 | PulkoMandy | if you suspect something like this I guess you could bring it up to Google opensource team |
| 17:46.59 | PulkoMandy | but in other cases, there isn't much to do about it |
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| 18:16.00 | srbhr[m] | PulkoMandy: There is something just like that going on. One thing I want to ask that, isn't there a rule that someone who is in the mentor list can't apply as a student again? |
| 18:16.34 | PulkoMandy | there is a rule that says member of the organization may not apply I think. But it is not clear what is a "member" |
| 18:17.08 | PulkoMandy | in the case of my project, the organization considered strictly is a non-profit organization with just 6 members, while the project has something like 60 contributors per year |
| 18:17.13 | PulkoMandy | who is a member in this case? |
| 18:17.32 | PulkoMandy | at which point does it become "dangerous" for a student to start contributing early before GSoC starts? |
| 18:20.21 | srbhr[m] | No my organization posted a prime members/mentors list. Two of the previously selected students were on the list. One being amongst the main 7 people, one being a supporter. Both of them got selected. |
| 18:21.32 | teepee | it's ok for someone to apply to both, but not to actually do both |
| 18:21.53 | srbhr[m] | Some students are also selected who are from the same college as the selected person. |
| 18:21.55 | teepee | so apply as student and if not selected do mentoring is fine as far as I read some discussion on the mentor list |
| 18:22.42 | srbhr[m] | Yes, he's not mentoring anyone but does makes decisions for the organisation. |
| 18:24.03 | teepee | as PulkoMandy already said, drawing a line is not easy |
| 18:24.32 | teepee | I'd draw a line where students received payments earlier at some point from the org |
| 18:24.48 | teepee | or also a university project accepting their own students |
| 18:24.58 | PulkoMandy | well there's also the question of wether the selection was fair |
| 18:25.17 | PulkoMandy | I know one org was banned because the org admin just selected his sister as one of the students |
| 18:25.20 | srbhr[m] | Yeah I get it. |
| 18:26.13 | PulkoMandy | so, yes, read the rules carefully, if you think there is a problem you can try to bring it up to the Google support email address. But rather be sure that there is actually something unfair there, don't waste their time otherwise |
| 18:26.23 | srbhr[m] | PulkoMandy: that is my question as well, I've seen other students proposals and their hardwork. None of us got selected. Although the selection was quite amusing as the ones who were selected neither were active on IRC or Mailing List. The two specially being not so much. |
| 18:28.05 | PulkoMandy | that indeed sounds strange. It's hard to tell without knowing the org and how they usually work, but yes, it may deserve further investigation |
| 18:28.07 | srbhr[m] | Thank you both teepee and PulkoMand. I'd rather not apply to the org or GSOC next time. My first experience is kinda very horrible. I expected some improvement or anything good to come out of it. |
| 18:28.51 | PulkoMandy | well, as I said, raise the case to the gsoc-support email |
| 18:28.53 | PulkoMandy | !support |
| 18:28.53 | gsocbot | PulkoMandy: If your issues can't be solved here, feel free to contact gsoc-support@google.com. |
| 18:28.59 | srbhr[m] | It just ended up wasting a time I wanted to continue further development but got no response from anyone. (Same reason as before no one to mentor). |
| 18:30.59 | teepee | oh, that's really a sad result, I really hope it's not their intention - this year is specially difficult for lots of people |
| 18:31.27 | PulkoMandy | well, it can happen, maybe they planned to have more mentors and someone eventually wasn't available, maybe they decided your work was not good enough (I make no judgement here, I didn't look at it, but I know in some cases I had to handle some very hghly motivated students who did a lot of things but they were missing some important skills or understanding of the problems), or well, many other things could go wrong |
| 18:31.31 | srbhr[m] | Yeah! Indeed strange things are happening. |
| 18:31.39 | PulkoMandy | and we can't really do anything here but guess at what may have happened |
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| 18:32.55 | teepee | so if you still are very interested in the topic itself, maybe think about it and see if you are ready to give them another chance in a couple of month time |
| 18:33.07 | srbhr[m] | https://github.com/srbhr/GSOC20-Proposal |
| 18:33.07 | srbhr[m] | I made this in regards to my proposal and it's rejection. But yeah, you are right. Maybe they thought deep down I wasn't capable for it. |
| 18:33.47 | teepee | if there's still not response, you can still cross them out of all your lists |
| 18:33.53 | srbhr[m] | teepee: I'm already making a project based on the same principles of earlier. |
| 18:34.32 | teepee | ah, ok. |
| 18:34.33 | srbhr[m] | I'll complete their project as well. As it'll hello us both. Anyways. |
| 18:34.51 | srbhr[m] | What organisation are you from ? |
| 18:35.04 | srbhr[m] | *Which |
| 18:35.16 | teepee | OpenSCAD |
| 18:37.45 | srbhr[m] | Nice! |
| 18:42.38 | PulkoMandy | mh, Apertium has been around in GSoC for a while and I think doing things right |
| 18:42.55 | PulkoMandy | so in that case I would assume some problem on their side with a mentor becoming unavailable indeed |
| 18:43.23 | PulkoMandy | by the way, my first application to GSoC was rejected too, in 2018. Now I'm organization admin for the same org and one of the top 5 contributors |
| 18:43.38 | PulkoMandy | so, it's maybe not the end of the world? |
| 18:44.44 | srbhr[m] | Yeah thanks PulkoMandy, which organisation are you from ? |
| 18:47.23 | PulkoMandy | from the Haiku operating system |
| 18:48.16 | PulkoMandy | I just stayed around for a year, following the IRC channel, working on some small changes (I remember very well my first change was adding a 3 pixel border around the text in our terminal application) |
| 18:48.45 | PulkoMandy | and the next year I knew the project better and made a proposal that was accepted very easily |
| 18:53.42 | PulkoMandy | so yes, given their feedback, it seems if you do the same (stay around for a year, make some small contributions when you have time) it's quite likely you can make an even better proposal next year and then it will more likely be accepted |
| 18:54.06 | PulkoMandy | (with the usual "if": we don't know if there will be a GSoC next year, we don't know if Apertium will apply for it and be accepted, etc) |
| 18:55.39 | srbhr[m] | Oh cool. Yes! (^^) |
| 18:56.27 | srbhr[m] | About the feedback, well . . . . there wasn't any tbh. |
| 18:56.55 | srbhr[m] | But yes. I'll contribute to Pytorch in near future and Microsoft's OS projects. |
| 18:57.07 | srbhr[m] | I'm very much interested in them. :-) |
| 18:59.49 | PulkoMandy | yes but there isn't much to say. If they got a lot of good students and not enough slots or not enough mentors for all of them, there is not much feedback to give to you |
| 18:59.55 | PulkoMandy | because there is nothing you can do about that |
| 19:00.43 | PulkoMandy | I would guess it has been a difficult decision for them to pick which students to keep or reject, and in the end it came down to how they could best spread the available mentors according to their areas of knowledge |
| 19:01.52 | PulkoMandy | it would be great if all orgs had an unlimited number of mentors and slots, but that isn't the case :) |
| 19:04.31 | Mc | unlimited number of mentors, where do I sign ? |
| 19:07.02 | srbhr[m] | Yes, that's why do it for the sake of coding and learning. More to give, expect nothing in return. \(°=°)/ |
| 19:10.13 | PulkoMandy | hey, out of 10 years contributing to Haiku, I've been paid for only one year. That was the longest contract Haiku did with anyone, and it was half the pay I could have earned in any other job at the time, but I really wanted to work full time for Haiku for a while |
| 19:10.23 | PulkoMandy | there is much more to get in return than money |
| 19:11.40 | PulkoMandy | meeting people from all around the world, improving your programming skills on a "real world" project, following a project for a long time (longer than you probably could in most paid jobs, because few projects run for decades there), travelling to conferences and giving talks about your work, ... |
| 19:14.22 | Mc | my gsoc student is paid more than I am for the summer |
| 19:24.05 | srbhr[m] | PulkoMandy: yeah that a things tbh. Seems like fun ain't it? |
| 19:24.16 | srbhr[m] | Mc: off mate! RIP. . . . |
| 19:24.23 | srbhr[m] | *oof |
| 19:24.32 | srbhr[m] | Sorry it's G-board |
| 19:24.54 | srbhr[m] | Again,. . . Google Keyboard which has the upper hand at this point. |
| 19:56.15 | valorie | one thing to consider is that we all were encouraged to assign three mentors per student |
| 19:56.38 | valorie | which left us (KDE) struggling to cover that |
| 19:56.46 | valorie | and we didn't, entirely |
| 19:56.59 | valorie | all students have at least two however |
| 19:57.40 | valorie | one of our students could not be a student because he had been inducted into the e.V. (german for foundation) |
| 19:57.51 | valorie | and thus was an official Member |
| 19:57.55 | valorie | so he's mentoring |
| 20:02.26 | valorie | in KDE we had not one student ask this year why they were not selected |
| 20:26.21 | srbhr[m] | valorie: I really appreciate what you people are doing at KDE and many other organisations. Maybe this time it was very different for me and other students as well. |
| 20:27.07 | valorie | the difference I saw this year for the students was the uncertainty around dates for exams and such |
| 20:27.19 | valorie | especially Indian students |
| 20:27.48 | srbhr[m] | But just that I don't know anything about the selection process and what's going inside the organisation. I really tried very hard, complete some part of the project in advance. But in the end, it all depends upon the mentors and OAs. But yes, it was a great learning experience. |
| 20:28.16 | srbhr[m] | Well actually it is evertime. Just COVID 19 sorta messed up the situation very bad. |
| 20:28.19 | valorie | we had one team completely flake out on us which has not happened before |
| 20:28.36 | valorie | I'm still unsure what happened |
| 20:28.43 | srbhr[m] | *everytime, exams are mid-may or til June's first week. |
| 20:29.04 | srbhr[m] | Whoa! Team as in mentors? Or the project management team ? |
| 20:29.20 | valorie | a particular project |
| 20:29.47 | valorie | stopped interacting with students, admins, etc |
| 20:30.06 | valorie | so of course we could select none of their prospective students |
| 20:30.09 | valorie | :( |
| 20:30.28 | valorie | I hope that they are all ok, but I don't know |
| 20:30.51 | valorie | and yes, covid has upended life in much of the world |
| 20:31.21 | valorie | I hope it can be a catalyst for change |
| 20:31.51 | valorie | it exposed a lot of inequity, weakness of systems and gross inequality around the world |
| 20:42.32 | srbhr[m] | valorie: well I guess that must be some serious issue with them. |
| 20:42.57 | srbhr[m] | Yes I hope so too, something better should come out of it. |
| 20:43.06 | valorie | that's the problem with getting in touch with people you only know a bit online |
| 20:43.07 | srbhr[m] | It's going to change some stuff forever. |
| 20:43.52 | valorie | srbhr[m]: for sure |
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| 20:44.20 | srbhr[m] | Well yeah! I get it. I have a discord server and we talk with each other, I mean we used to . . . Then suddenly 2-3 person just went AWOL. Now we never know where they are, what they are doing and all. |
| 20:45.35 | srbhr[m] | But then the rest of the team shared numbers and emails with one another for though times, and bless me during this COVID time. The online family has brought a lot of joy and kept the vibe high. (^^) |
| 20:45.57 | srbhr[m] | Nice talking to you all guys! |
| 20:46.32 | srbhr[m] | Thanks a lot for taking the time to provide answers to my questions. valorie Mc PulkoMandy and teepee |
| 20:46.47 | srbhr[m] | Have a great Day! |
| 20:46.49 | valorie | is not a guy |
| 20:46.55 | valorie | but you are most welcome |
| 20:47.24 | srbhr[m] | Oh lol yeah, my bad. Thank You Miss valorie ! |
| 20:47.35 | valorie | is a grandma |
| 20:47.39 | valorie | :-) |
| 20:47.46 | valorie | aka linux grandma |
| 20:47.52 | srbhr[m] | Ha Ha |
| 20:48.08 | valorie | not kidding, that's the name of my blog! |
| 20:48.17 | valorie | sort of neglected these days |
| 20:49.01 | srbhr[m] | Yes I'll check it out. Might as well add some of my linux knowledge to it. (If you give in the permission) |
| 20:49.56 | srbhr[m] | This ? http://linuxgrandma.blogspot.com/?m=1 |
| 20:50.36 | valorie | yep |
| 20:51.18 | valorie | I wrote that from the perspective of a newbie (while I still had that superpower) |
| 20:51.42 | Mc | valorie: re your last blogpost, I still have access in the (org admin) interface to rejected proposals |
| 20:51.43 | valorie | when I come across things that baffle the heck out of me I still write |
| 20:52.12 | valorie | it's mostly so that I can recall how to do things, rather than for others |
| 20:52.17 | srbhr[m] | Whoa this is so good. I never got anything like that from my team. |
| 20:52.22 | valorie | but it might help some beginners |
| 20:52.35 | valorie | Mc: which post? |
| 20:52.47 | srbhr[m] | Therefore I was asked by someone to post what happened. And I made a GitHub repo. For that |
| 20:53.10 | valorie | oh, aha, I see it |
| 20:53.14 | srbhr[m] | but it might help some beginners ~ yes truly it will. |
| 20:53.18 | valorie | Mc: where do you see those? |
| 20:53.31 | srbhr[m] | You guys really care for your students and organisation. |
| 20:53.40 | Mc | when you login you end up on the dashboard and you can click on the list of all proposals |
| 20:53.42 | valorie | we do |
| 20:53.56 | valorie | trying... |
| 20:54.00 | srbhr[m] | Damn, I should have applied elsewhere also. I could have gotten a better experience. |
| 20:55.10 | valorie | Mc: I get 21 Active, and 21 All |
| 20:55.15 | valorie | and no inactive |
| 20:55.25 | Mc | that's "projects" |
| 20:55.32 | Mc | but if you scroll down you have "proposals" |
| 20:56.15 | valorie | aha! |
| 20:56.23 | valorie | so I can download that |
| 20:56.31 | valorie | not really access it directly |
| 20:56.37 | valorie | thanks, Mc! |
| 20:56.43 | Mc | (and we still have access to Final PDFs) |
| 20:56.58 | valorie | excellent |
| 20:57.18 | srbhr[m] | Mc: you're from KDE as well ? |
| 20:57.23 | valorie | unsure what I'll do about it as this point but maybe still write to the students we could not select |
| 20:57.27 | Mc | srbhr[m]: nope, Inkscape |
| 20:57.52 | valorie | (although KDE is trying to draw inkscape into the KDE community....) |
| 20:57.53 | Mc | (I speak sometimes with people from Krita which is a KDE subproject) |
| 20:57.58 | Mc | :D |
| 20:58.00 | srbhr[m] | Oh cool! |
| 20:58.17 | valorie | krita is one of our superstar projects |
| 20:58.23 | valorie | esp. in GSoC |
| 20:58.31 | valorie | so many successful students |
| 20:58.32 | srbhr[m] | Btw Mac inspired KDE desktop environment, or KDE inspired mac people? |
| 20:58.36 | srbhr[m] | Who's idea was the Dock ? |
| 20:58.50 | Mc | maybe it will happen one day^^ (Inkscape in KDE Community) |
| 20:58.56 | valorie | srbhr[m]: much of our software will run on a Mac |
| 20:59.30 | valorie | I think everyone wants great ease of use and elegance on screen |
| 20:59.39 | srbhr[m] | No I'm talking about the desktop environment. Visual Appeal KDE is similar to MacOSX in visual. |
| 21:00.01 | valorie | I doubt any of our designers take direct inspiration from Mac |
| 21:00.11 | valorie | because they like to sue people |
| 21:00.12 | srbhr[m] | Krita is amazing. Many people share their art via that. |
| 21:00.15 | valorie | lol |
| 21:00.25 | srbhr[m] | Yeah XD |
| 21:00.32 | valorie | srbhr[m]: good design is good design |
| 21:00.36 | Mc | the Krita devs are amazing people too |
| 21:00.45 | valorie | and Mac is basically built on BSD |
| 21:01.07 | valorie | and they cadged our early browser tech years ago |
| 21:01.11 | srbhr[m] | Mc: I'm a inkscape user. It's ana amazing alternative to illustrator. |
| 21:01.15 | valorie | I think that code is mostly gone now |
| 21:01.34 | Mc | :) |
| 21:01.47 | valorie | for that matter, much of our software runs in Windows, and many apps in Android |
| 21:01.51 | srbhr[m] | But still, it started with that. So yeah! |
| 21:02.14 | valorie | yep |
| 21:02.23 | valorie | that's why I love foss |
| 21:02.37 | valorie | it's all about sharing, doing the best work possible |
| 21:02.40 | srbhr[m] | How hard it is to design a software for windows? I see people nagging that Windows sucks for coding, but I myself is a windows user. |
| 21:02.41 | valorie | and helping one another |
| 21:03.03 | valorie | srbhr[m]: we don't design anything for windows |
| 21:03.11 | srbhr[m] | Yes indeed,FOSS is good. And the community you get is also good. |
| 21:03.19 | valorie | we make software that will run almost anywere |
| 21:03.45 | Mc | there is worse than windows |
| 21:03.50 | Mc | there is mac :D |
| 21:03.58 | srbhr[m] | That is cause now stuff is getting universalized, earlier I was talking. |
| 21:04.16 | Mc | on windows you can just emulate a unix-like environment and get going |
| 21:04.34 | valorie | Mc: weirdly enough, it's harder to get apps to run on a mac |
| 21:04.39 | srbhr[m] | Hey BTW if I buy a Dell XPS (Top End) and Install Ubuntu, will it be able to keep up with the hardware ? |
| 21:04.48 | valorie | yes |
| 21:04.53 | Mc | valorie: that's what I said :D |
| 21:05.00 | srbhr[m] | Like usb-c and 3.1 and stuff. |
| 21:05.10 | srbhr[m] | Wow I never used a mac |
| 21:05.12 | valorie | yep |
| 21:05.17 | srbhr[m] | It's so.expensive |
| 21:05.21 | Mc | (cue the windows MVPs who would stare in horror at my comment about unix-like stuff and say "noooo we want UWP apps") |
| 21:05.24 | valorie | oh, I had a mac years ago, and loved it |
| 21:05.57 | srbhr[m] | Mc: I use WSL (emulated Ubuntu 20?04 |
| 21:06.04 | valorie | little more of an adversarial relationship with windows until finally I could run linux |
| 21:06.04 | srbhr[m] | 20.04 terminal to code. |
| 21:06.30 | valorie | Mandrake, back in the day |
| 21:06.46 | valorie | around 2000 or 2001 |
| 21:07.10 | srbhr[m] | So I have a linux kernel on top my windows kernel. Like a VM but it's fast and amazing. It's just like.opening up a terminal and supports everything but gui |
| 21:08.03 | valorie | some folks have gotten it to support gui apps but it takes a song and dance to get things to work |
| 21:08.58 | srbhr[m] | I have done it. XD |
| 21:09.12 | srbhr[m] | It's just a few seconds and stuff starts to work. Lol |
| 21:11.02 | obviyus | WSL is pretty good |
| 21:11.08 | srbhr[m] | obviyus: yeah |
| 21:11.23 | srbhr[m] | What Distro are you using? |
| 21:11.27 | obviyus | Debian Buster |
| 21:11.39 | srbhr[m] | Focal Fossa here. |
| 21:11.48 | srbhr[m] | BTW anyone used arch ? |
| 21:12.20 | srbhr[m] | And if anyone has seen the subreddit r/LinuxMemes |
| 21:12.48 | srbhr[m] | BTW I use ARCH! |
| 21:12.48 | srbhr[m] | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:12.55 | srbhr[m] | And how to quit vim |
| 21:14.21 | srbhr[m] | Anyways it's getting late. Good Night ð´ |
| 21:14.59 | valorie | uses Kubuntu |
| 21:15.02 | valorie | niters |
| 21:54.34 | valorie | Mc: I have now downloaded the file and updated my blog |
| 21:54.38 | valorie | thank you again |
| 22:08.42 | Mc | yw :) |
| 22:10.16 | Mc | valorie: just curious, what is the proportion of "spam" proposals for you ? (proposals from people who never contacted the project, are just copypaste from project list, or just have no link to anything) |
| 22:12.24 | Mc | (for me it's ~ between 50% and 66%) |
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| 22:36.46 | valorie | we had fewers than 5 as I recall |
| 22:36.59 | valorie | once I deal with my download I'll get back to you on that |
| 22:37.02 | valorie | :-) |
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| 22:40.13 | Mc | I'd be happy to hear if you have suggestions on how to lower that rate (no big time sink as we just mark them as ignored in 2 minutes, but I always wondered if everyone get those) |
| 22:45.56 | olly | we don't get anything like that level these days, though i'm not sure if there's any trick to that |
| 22:48.10 | valorie | we just keep raising our standards |
| 22:48.47 | valorie | such as requiring at least 2 commits by the proposal deadline, linked on the proposal |
| 22:49.16 | olly | i'd just try to make clear up front what the expectations are for a proposal to be considered, and get one admin to do an initial pass to mark the ones which clearly fail those |
| 22:51.26 | valorie | I read 'em all |
| 22:51.35 | valorie | and try to help the students improve them |
| 22:51.51 | Mc | we do too (@ 2 commits) but still get those 2/3 of people who do not even mention that requirement |
| 22:51.55 | valorie | I think that helps them even if I know we won't be able to accept them |
| 22:52.26 | valorie | my most made comment is "flesh out your timeline much more completely" |
| 22:53.02 | Mc | (usually the ones who cared to write something related to the project by themselves have read the requirements) |
| 22:53.14 | valorie | and the second-most is to the mentors -- how do those commits look? |
| 22:53.33 | valorie | yes, I often add: please read the requirements again |
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| 22:55.12 | valorie | some of the mentors were not happy at first when we added the requirements |
| 22:55.19 | olly | valorie: i mean after the deadline - it's too late to improve them then |
| 22:55.23 | valorie | I think they are mostly fans of it now |
| 22:55.28 | valorie | right |
| 22:55.33 | olly | and a lot of the spam ones are filed < 1 hours before the deadline IME |
| 22:55.46 | Mc | yup |
| 22:55.47 | valorie | can't help the ones who don't bother uploading until the end |
| 22:55.50 | valorie | yep |
| 22:56.16 | valorie | those are mostly the ones I wrote the open letter to |
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