| 00:03.27 | Jjp137 | ugh as an Xfce user, I'm not looking forward to that... |
| 00:03.31 | fsmithred | what does debian plan to do with it? With the exception of a couple packages, xfce comes from them |
| 00:10.40 | golinux | ascii will be good for another few years. |
| 00:13.43 | agris | fsmithred, Debian doesn't care at all, the are GNOME3 now |
| 00:15.01 | fsmithred | 4.12 is still in sid/ceres |
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| 00:15.47 | agris | but for how long |
| 00:16.44 | *** join/#devuan infobot (ibot@c-174-52-60-165.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 00:16.44 | *** topic/#devuan is This is the Devuan https://devuan.org/ discussion channel | D1conf: #devuan-conf https://devuan.org/d1conf | Latest (2018-06-09): ASCII 2.0.0 https://devuan.org/os/debian-fork/ascii-stable-announce-060818 || Stable (2017-05-25): Jessie 1.0.0 LTS release | Devuan Forum: https://dev1galaxy.org/ | Chanlogs http://maemo.cloud-7.de/irclogs/freenode/_devuan/ | You may need to auth to NickServ |
| 00:16.45 | *** mode/#devuan [+v infobot] by ChanServ |
| 00:16.59 | fsmithred | someone could step up and compile all of it for gtk2, I guess, but who's gonna maintain gtk2? |
| 00:17.16 | Witeds | i am curious about somthing i installed beowulf so that i could comiple mesa but i can't seem to get libuuid1:i386 to install on a multi arch setup along side libuuid1:amd64 but in the past there was no issue with this and on other distros as well |
| 00:17.20 | agris | gtk2 is already maintained as far as I'm aware |
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| 00:17.33 | agris | still see git commits on that branch for bugfixes every now and then |
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| 01:09.54 | *** topic/#devuan is This is the Devuan https://devuan.org/ discussion channel | D1conf: #devuan-conf https://devuan.org/d1conf | Latest (2018-06-09): ASCII 2.0.0 https://devuan.org/os/debian-fork/ascii-stable-announce-060818 || Stable (2017-05-25): Jessie 1.0.0 LTS release | Devuan Forum: https://dev1galaxy.org/ | Chanlogs http://maemo.cloud-7.de/irclogs/freenode/_devuan/ | You may need to auth to NickServ |
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| 01:15.24 | gnarface | agris: there's people out there actively peddling malicious misinformation. try not to inadvertently become one of them. |
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| 01:16.03 | agris | what do you mean by that gnarface ? |
| 01:16.42 | gnarface | i mean that a lot of the stuff you claim to be worried about makes you sound like a troll |
| 01:17.44 | gnarface | so, either you are a troll, or someone put a lot of really bad ideas in your head |
| 01:18.54 | gnarface | and it's been going around |
| 01:18.57 | agris | well I don't know how you could come to that conclusion. I am genuinely worried about gtk+ |
| 01:19.29 | gnarface | but the same software you have installed that currently works with gtk2 will keep working with gtk2 forever as long as you never update it |
| 01:19.50 | gnarface | and there are scenarios where that is okay |
| 01:20.07 | gnarface | and even if i'm wrong, it'll be years before it matters still |
| 01:20.40 | agris | That's not entirely true. the dependencies of that software break or programming language functions become deprecated |
| 01:20.52 | gnarface | sure, but probably not for what most people are doing |
| 01:21.03 | gnarface | not for decades anyway |
| 01:21.28 | gnarface | if you want to keep installing new software and updating to the latest version of stuff, of course that changes things |
| 01:21.29 | agris | If it was that easy I wouldn't be nearly as distraught. working with C or C++ (well maybe not soo much C) I experience this problem quite a bit |
| 01:21.38 | agris | programs in Python on the other hand |
| 01:21.42 | gnarface | but you have to be able to rationally evaluate the need to update your shit compulsively |
| 01:21.45 | agris | a lot easier to maintain |
| 01:21.52 | gnarface | don't succumb to shiny new shit syndrome |
| 01:22.35 | gnarface | keep backups |
| 01:22.37 | gnarface | keep spare parts |
| 01:22.52 | gnarface | and if you need to be on the bleeding edge of everything and xfce won't do what you want |
| 01:22.55 | gnarface | ... consider a new WM |
| 01:22.57 | gnarface | there are tons of them |
| 01:23.08 | gnarface | you don't have to be married to the defaults of everything |
| 01:23.16 | gnarface | that's a very windows-centric viewpoint |
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| 01:24.01 | gnarface | the panic itself... that's just spinning your wheels, really |
| 01:33.53 | agris | you know I guess your right. A lot of my problems are Gentoo problems. I've become afraid to invest into a platform because every other portage sync I have do a whole bunch of work to go through git and restore ebuilds, blacklist new library updates, and at this point probably have 40% of my userspace coming from my own repo |
| 01:34.31 | gnarface | heh, yea that sounds like why i stopped trying to get work done with gentoo, too |
| 01:34.32 | agris | I don't have these problems nearly as often on my Devuan laptops and servers |
| 01:36.03 | agris | and the only things I really want that are new are ZFS 8 (for SSD trim support) and a custom kernel config tuned for realtime so things feel snappy. and I'm planning to toss my nvidia 1070 due to constant proprietary driver issues anyways |
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| 01:37.58 | JohnDoe2 | well yes it's a really bad idea (regex) |
| 01:38.13 | JohnDoe2 | my bad, wrong channel |
| 01:38.33 | agris | I can certainly keep around programs like Twinkle software and patch it as needed for a 3-6 year Debian LTS support model |
| 01:40.21 | agris | mate-system-monitor 1.12.2 |
| 01:40.39 | agris | mumble patches for jack support |
| 01:47.08 | agris | gnarface, thank you for helping me figure out the issues I was having with building backports earlier |
| 01:48.22 | gnarface | no problem agris |
| 01:52.33 | agris | btw that issue I was having with the mirrors, it wasn't peering issues (well it was a little bit but that wasn't the main cause). It was a $250 broadcom based access point. For some reason it was mangling TCP packets like crazy causing Linux's TCP congestion control to throw a fit. Tried updating firmware no difference. Ended up replacing it with a 8 year old $50 Atheros based access point running OpenWRT. problems solved |
| 01:53.31 | agris | in fact wireless clients are now 30 megabits faster on average |
| 01:53.34 | gnarface | oh |
| 01:53.44 | gnarface | interesting |
| 01:53.50 | gnarface | i wonder if it might have been a MTU mismatch |
| 01:54.18 | gnarface | i had a lag issue with my nintendo because the new ones default to 1400 stock, but my whole network is set at 1500 (default afaik) |
| 01:54.26 | agris | yeah, that was a really obscure issue. No, It wasn't MTU mismatch. the whole network supported 1500byte packets. I tested that and it wasn't fragmentation. |
| 01:54.38 | gnarface | weird |
| 01:54.47 | gnarface | well broadcom stuff has been sucky for me in general |
| 01:54.54 | gnarface | so i believe it might have had unresolved bugs |
| 01:55.01 | agris | It was duplicate TCP ACKS and TCP Retransmissions |
| 01:55.21 | gnarface | weird |
| 01:55.23 | gnarface | sounds hacked honestly |
| 01:55.42 | gnarface | but you said flashing firmware didn't fix it? |
| 01:55.50 | agris | and it only occured with TCP connections that had higher than ~90ms latency |
| 01:56.16 | agris | that's why I couldn't reproduce it with iperf3 on the lan |
| 01:56.29 | agris | and most websites were not effected |
| 01:56.42 | agris | well 90+ms and 15-20ms |
| 01:58.04 | agris | I don't know why those specific ranges triggered that but that's what I found. And It's not like it was doing any routing or filtering. It was setup as a dumbap. and yeah, installin latest firmware did not fix it |
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| 02:51.36 | se7en | I have kind of a strange question. How does one set their mailspool by enviornment? |
| 02:51.40 | se7en | I think I may have upset that |
| 02:53.00 | se7en | It's just $MAIL, right? |
| 02:56.19 | agris | se7en, It's usually defined by the FHS in /var/mail/<username>/ (legacy location is /var/spool/mail/<username>/ or ~/Maildir |
| 02:56.46 | agris | How big is the Devuan repositories? |
| 02:56.53 | agris | (not including Debian) |
| 02:57.55 | se7en | I have my mail in /var/spool/mail/se7en, and have been trying to fix fetchmail |
| 02:58.13 | se7en | Fetchmail's default expected behavior is to write to the spool |
| 02:58.18 | se7en | It doesn't |
| 02:58.31 | se7en | It tries to send it to port 25 on the localhost |
| 02:58.51 | se7en | Then, if I add procmail as an mda, I get a broken pipe |
| 02:59.05 | se7en | agris: |
| 03:01.32 | agris | se7en, I do not know about procmail, so you'll probably have to wait a bit longer for someone else to answer BUT if your not set on pracmail and need a mda/mta I highly recommend OpenSMTPd. It is massively simpler to configure, provides sendmail-like userspace tools, and supports both mbox and maildir. a basic secure configuration can be done in 5 lines |
| 03:02.16 | agris | https://www.opensmtpd.org/ |
| 03:04.21 | se7en | All I want to do is fix fetchmail |
| 03:04.28 | se7en | It just fails for unknown reasons |
| 03:04.45 | agris | accept for local alias <aliases> deliver to mbox |
| 03:04.45 | se7en | And it's fuly setup otherwise |
| 03:06.00 | gnarface | se7en: you sure it's not just permissions? |
| 03:09.50 | se7en | It may be |
| 03:09.59 | onefang | agris: The Devuan (without Debian) ISO mirror is 38GB, the package mirror is 41 GB. Or my copies are. |
| 03:10.18 | se7en | gnarface: |
| 03:10.19 | se7en | [20:10 root@lappy se7en] > ls -l /var/spool/mail/* |
| 03:10.21 | se7en | -rw-r--r-- 1 root mail 0 Aug 24 18:10 /var/spool/mail/root |
| 03:10.23 | se7en | -rw-rw---- 1 se7en mail 0 Aug 24 18:35 /var/spool/mail/se7en |
| 03:13.00 | gnarface | onefang: is that just amd64 though? |
| 03:13.36 | onefang | That's one of the official mirrors. |
| 03:13.59 | gnarface | se7en: how about errors logs for mail in /var/log? |
| 03:15.05 | gnarface | you might just want to consider letting it deliver to localhost:25 |
| 03:18.45 | gnarface | i think that's considered completely normal |
| 03:20.26 | se7en | It'll take more work and this used to just werk before my upgrae to ascii |
| 03:20.49 | gnarface | yea i wonder what went wrong, but i don't use it, i use exim4 and it works fine for me |
| 03:21.15 | gnarface | i note that it does not deliver mail to root though |
| 03:21.17 | se7en | I don't thnk I used procmail before wither |
| 03:21.27 | gnarface | your spool |
| 03:21.29 | gnarface | you have a root spool |
| 03:21.35 | gnarface | and it's only writeable by root |
| 03:21.56 | gnarface | so... that would mean your mail daemon would have to be running as root |
| 03:22.04 | gnarface | or it couldn't write to it |
| 03:22.32 | gnarface | did you check to see if mail is undeliverable to /var/spool/mail/se7en too, or did you only check mail to root? |
| 03:24.53 | gnarface | ? |
| 03:26.15 | se7en | I'm checking my local user's mail |
| 03:26.18 | se7en | lines 1-16sh: 1: /usr/bin/procmail: Operation not permitted |
| 03:26.19 | se7en | fetchmail: Error writing to MDA: Broken pipe |
| 03:27.06 | gnarface | operation not permitted? |
| 03:27.37 | gnarface | this isn't gonna turn out to be some problem because you have busybox installed instead of bash, is it? |
| 03:27.59 | se7en | I do not have busybox |
| 03:28.08 | se7en | The problem seems to be because I am torifying it |
| 03:28.13 | gnarface | can you find out what pipe it was trying to write to? |
| 03:28.14 | se7en | it is a .onion email IMAP |
| 03:29.07 | se7en | I don't know how to find that out, gnarface. I am reading logs |
| 03:30.04 | se7en | It's not outputting to where I set it to output |
| 03:30.10 | se7en | set logfile /home/se7en/.fetchmail.log |
| 03:31.16 | se7en | It seems |
| 03:31.24 | se7en | that fetchmail is completly failing to call procmail period |
| 03:31.30 | se7en | Procmail doesn't seem to be active at all |
| 03:31.50 | agris | do Devuan package mirrors need to be on a dedicated IP? |
| 03:32.51 | se7en | I'm going to try something unorthadox |
| 03:32.52 | se7en | chown root:mail /usr/bin/procmail |
| 03:33.01 | se7en | chmod -v 2755 /usr/bin/procmail |
| 03:33.37 | se7en | Yeah, that fixed it |
| 03:33.39 | se7en | So fundementally |
| 03:33.47 | se7en | The problem was with how torsocks handles setuid |
| 03:33.48 | onefang | On my mirror I have several domains on the one IP, not all of them related to Devuan. |
| 03:34.23 | agris | ok |
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| 08:54.18 | _abc_ | Hi. Anyone using LADSPA plugin for auto level/compression/limiting volume with ascii or next devuan? I got rid of pulseaudio, using plain alsa now. I am willing to try the solutions shown in the link: |
| 08:54.22 | _abc_ | https://alsa.opensrc.org/Ladspa_(plugin) |
| 08:54.49 | _abc_ | Anyone else tried this? The goal is automatic audio level control, mainly due to youtube volume jumps between clips which are crazy (20dB seen) |
| 08:56.47 | _abc_ | I guess asking these questions makes more sense in the evening (US TZ) when people are here hopefully. |
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| 19:18.06 | devu | Hello, i have problem with xfce4-terminal.It simply does not dispaly the output of w,who and users command.Any idea what is wrong?thanks |
| 19:20.15 | furrywolf | it would be odd if a terminal program only broke the output of those commands. I'd suspect either broken/mismatched packages, or (much less likely) a rootkit. but, I don't know how to easily troubleshoot that. |
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| 19:32.07 | devu | furrywolf:it works in Xterm and Uxterm but xfce-terminal and mate-terminal nothing |
| 19:33.15 | furrywolf | that's odd. could be a path issue or something weird. |
| 19:33.34 | furrywolf | it works in xfce4-terminal here |
| 19:33.57 | furrywolf | does which w show /usr/bin/w in both terminals? |
| 19:34.38 | furrywolf | xfce4-terminal doesn't seem to start a login shell, while xterm does. |
| 19:35.30 | furrywolf | so if the environment was broken when x started, xfce4-terminal would be using that broken environment, while xterm would log in again. |
| 19:35.51 | furrywolf | have you done any major upgrades since last time you rebooted? |
| 19:36.49 | furrywolf | I need to go load up my a/c service stuff and fix someone's car, so hopefully someone who knows more about this can help you... bbl. |
| 19:40.34 | devu | furrywolf:thanks anyway |
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| 20:08.14 | telmich | good evening! I remember the nice atmosphere at the conferenece in Amsterdam. If anyone of you is interested in continuing the hacking atmosphere in Switzerland, we have just opened a hacking hotel and welcome similar minded people: https://hack.digitalglarus.ch/hacking-date-in-digital-glarus.html |
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| 20:39.02 | andy5995 | how do you use the experimental suite? Just do a regular install and then change all the instances of "ascii" to "experimental" in sources.list? |
| 20:39.16 | fsmithred | yikes, no |
| 20:39.24 | fsmithred | add a line for experimental |
| 20:39.43 | fsmithred | anything you want to install from it, add '-t experimental' to the command |
| 20:40.11 | fsmithred | there are only a few packages in experimental |
| 20:40.56 | andy5995 | ok.. I should be able to handle that fsmithred .. thanks! |
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| 22:35.53 | andy5995 | fsmithred: I was just wondering because I've submitted a couple packages to experimental, and wanted to know how to *use* experimental ;) |
| 22:36.16 | andy5995 | I've been a Debian user for years but never tried that part |
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| 22:38.34 | gnarface | andy5995: it's like for if you're running unstable and the nvidia drivers still aren't new enough, and you're willing to break your system to try newer ones |
| 22:43.38 | fsmithred | our experimental repo does not merge debian's |
| 22:44.00 | fsmithred | it's used for new packages that don't come from debian |
| 22:44.26 | fsmithred | andy5995, make sure the deb line in sources.list has /devuan not /merged |
| 22:45.05 | gnarface | oh, noted |
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| 23:38.07 | tom_work | Is it possible to build forwardports for Devuan? |
| 23:38.10 | tom_work | not backports |
| 23:39.02 | gnarface | yes, i would think so |
| 23:39.22 | gnarface | the basic process should not be fundamentally different |
| 23:39.31 | tom_work | would that just be for example apt source -t oldstable engrampa? |
| 23:39.50 | gnarface | yea |
| 23:39.52 | tom_work | instead of apt source -t sid/ceres |
| 23:39.57 | tom_work | hmm |
| 23:40.13 | gnarface | oh |
| 23:40.15 | gnarface | there is one thing though |
| 23:40.22 | gnarface | one complication about the way dpkg works |
| 23:40.32 | gnarface | it won't downgrade a package by default |
| 23:40.49 | gnarface | so when you rebuild the old package, you still have to give it a name that dpkg will think is a newer version |
| 23:40.56 | gnarface | or it will refuse to replace the currently installed version |
| 23:41.08 | gnarface | but that's only a complication if you have a currently installed version |
| 23:41.34 | tom_work | Should I rename it so like say current stable package name is coolprogram. Do I name it coolprogram5 or coolprogram-5 ? |
| 23:41.45 | drawkula | aptitude can downgrade interactively |
| 23:41.46 | tom_work | sorta lke how libmariadb18 is? |
| 23:42.13 | tom_work | and put in the pakages metadata that coolprogram5 replaces/provides coolprogram |
| 23:43.06 | gnarface | tom_work: there are very strict rules, and if you get so much as one character out of place, build scripts tend to break very ungracefully all over the place, but yes, you have the basic idea. you can see from examples of what has already gone through the repo. |
| 23:43.34 | tom_work | speaking of packages I want to maintain that latest release of NetSurf Browser (3.9) for Debian. Is there a good guide you would personally recommend on understanding and creating debian packages? |
| 23:43.41 | gnarface | tom_work: *very strict rules about package names and versions, to be clear |
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| 23:44.12 | gnarface | tom_work: yes, https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/maint-guide/ |
| 23:44.14 | tom_work | I can build netsurf 3.9 just fine by hand, but I looked at the debian package for it and it does not make a lot of sense to me |
| 23:44.38 | Witeds | figured out that my libuuid and asound2 issue comes down to libblkid1:i386 trying to replace the 64bit system |
| 23:45.08 | gnarface | Witeds: ouch. not everything is fully multi-lib safe. |
| 23:46.27 | tom_work | thank you. looks like there is even documentation on how to get your changes merged to Debian here |
| 23:46.50 | gnarface | tom_work: that documentation is fairly exhaustive about debian packaging, but it opens with a lot of etiquette stuff not relevant to personal packages, and you can just skip past that stuff. for how to quick&dirty rebuild a src package, skip forward to chapter 6. |
| 23:47.46 | gnarface | but chapters 4 and 5 are useful if you want to analyze what all the parts are for |
| 23:48.17 | tom_work | unrelated, but There's been some work on using OpenRC for all runlevels, not just all runlevels except sysinit. Also, writing OpenRC-run INIT script replacements for the sysv start-stop-daemon reliant ones. |
| 23:48.25 | gnarface | chapter 8 might be key for you too, since it involves inserting a upstream source tarball into an existing src package |
| 23:49.17 | tom_work | Is there a way that OpenRC-run scripts could be developed for Debian/Devuan while still maintaining init freedom? My concern is that putting init scripts in /etc/init.d would conflict with SysV init |
| 23:49.37 | tom_work | but I want the ability to run a Devuan system with OpenRC init and OpenRC Supervisory natively |
| 23:50.21 | tom_work | would it be correct form to use /etc/openrc.d/ for OpenRC init scripts and patch OpenRC to use this custom directory? |
| 23:50.42 | gnarface | tom_work: right, you want to do it like gentoo does it, instead of like how debian does it. afaik there has been a couple people working on stuff like that. someone, at least one person around here just built the gentoo one and put it in a public repo. i forget who, sorry. |
| 23:50.53 | tom_work | and then patch various applications in sid to also ship with an OpenRC-run init script in /etc/openrc.d |
| 23:51.13 | tom_work | gnarface, yeah I know him |
| 23:51.34 | tom_work | I've also been working on LXC Devuan OpenRC templates myself, but I have not released them yet |
| 23:51.35 | gnarface | someone else a few days ago expressed interest in doing the same thing and adding lxc compatibility |
| 23:51.38 | tom_work | I am currently using those in prod |
| 23:51.44 | gnarface | oh, are you that guy? |
| 23:51.47 | gnarface | or are you a 3rd one? |
| 23:51.48 | tom_work | probably |
| 23:52.14 | tom_work | but my LXC templates, they don't run OpenRC natively |
| 23:52.15 | gnarface | i'm sorry, i don't know much about this situation, i just know that there's good arguments for the way debian does it, using both at once. |
| 23:52.41 | tom_work | they do the debian-style run SysV scripts for sysinit runlevel, then launch OpenRC and have all the init scripts run in SysV-compatibility mode |
| 23:52.42 | gnarface | i think some of the decisions were made because of lack of development effort and unwillingness to diverge too much from upstream code |
| 23:52.48 | gnarface | but that might be changing these days |
| 23:52.59 | tom_work | yes |
| 23:53.13 | tom_work | I want it |
| 23:53.28 | tom_work | and because I am already using it in prod I have investment in making it work |
| 23:53.48 | tom_work | and I know it's "experimental" in Debian but I know around OpenRC so I can fix things when they break |
| 23:54.00 | tom_work | But I don't want to do this if nobody else can benefit form it |
| 23:54.59 | specing | I'll benefit |
| 23:55.15 | gnarface | you guys all need to self-organize |
| 23:55.22 | gnarface | there are a small but growing handful of you |
| 23:55.35 | djph | there are dozens of you |
| 23:55.44 | tom_work | my big concerns is that I am running into limitations of running OpenRC in sysv-compatibility mode when all the functionality that the sysv scripts are doing have directly drop-ins for openrc-run. For example proccess supervisory in SysV that's using start-stop-daemon doesn't even have to use openrc-supervisory. YOu can make a Openrc-run init script and put the line supervisor=start-stop-daemon |
| 23:56.27 | tom_work | the big thing is, I can't put openrc-run scripts in /etc/init.d/ without breaking sysv. So I need to figure out a place to put them that works for everybody |
| 23:57.07 | gnarface | tom_work: i liked /etc/openrc.d but i have no stake in the game |
| 23:58.05 | tom_work | gnarface, where sould I go to to get a final consensus on this? Should I drop a post at the mailing lists? |
| 23:58.33 | gnarface | that's what you're supposed to do, yes |
| 23:58.38 | gnarface | there is also #devuan-dev |
| 23:59.14 | tom_work | instant messaging not exactly what I'm looking for. IM is great for development, not so much long discussions |
| 23:59.24 | tom_work | IM is transient |
| 23:59.42 | tom_work | k |
| 23:59.48 | gnarface | well, IRC is hardly IM, but i think the mailing list is the preferred option, so you're good |
| 23:59.59 | tom_work | now this part, I'm not really sure what to do here |