| 00:00.16 | Hurgotron | With ubuntu, I used network-manager. wicd doesn't seem to cover it, though. Anything else? manual ppp scripts? |
| 00:00.46 | gnarface | oh, i think you can still use network-manager. there was a good reason wicd is the default now but i think someone eventually fixed network-manager |
| 00:01.59 | Hurgotron | Ah, that might be nice. but wicd doesn't seem half bad either. |
| 00:02.09 | gnarface | i thought you were asking about a more low-level question of hardware support. i've personally seen mobile broadband hardware connected via bluetooth and pcmcia. i would expect that USB cell modems are a thing too, though i've never seen one. |
| 00:02.52 | gnarface | and that's assuming you mean cellular networking as opposed to just 802.X wifi |
| 00:03.41 | gnarface | someone might have already posted answers to this question on the forum. it would seem unlikely for you to be the first person to run into trouble doing it with wicd. |
| 00:03.53 | Hurgotron | hardware (3G modem) is built in and seemed to be well supported with the distros I used before. It's just configuration for me. |
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| 00:06.29 | gnarface | well i don't know for sure wicd won't work. i don't use either of them. |
| 00:06.39 | gnarface | there might be some trick to it |
| 00:07.26 | Hurgotron | maybe. But configuration options for 3g in wicd don't seem to be obvious at least. |
| 00:07.46 | gnarface | another thing to check would be the firmware |
| 00:08.18 | gnarface | i'd assume such a device requires non-free firmware from some or another vendor, and other distros would include all such non-free firmware by default but debian does not, and therefore devuan does not either. |
| 00:09.03 | gnarface | but if you were missing firmware it would most likely complain about it in the dmesg output somewhere |
| 00:09.15 | ewl | I'm using a light wm that doesn't have a configuration file for what to do when the laptop lid is closed. I know how to do it with systemd, and with slackware you create a "lid" file in the /etc/acpi/events/ directory, but there is no acpi directory in devuan. Does anybody know how I set up pm-suspend when the lid is closed? |
| 00:09.58 | gnarface | ewl: are you sure acpi is installed? |
| 00:10.34 | ewl | Is it a package? Everything seems to be working. |
| 00:11.08 | gnarface | yea it's some packages |
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| 00:11.14 | gnarface | try this: dpkg -l |grep acpi |
| 00:11.39 | ewl | I assumed if it were available it would have gotten installed with the main installation. |
| 00:11.59 | gnarface | eh, it's not strictly required, so it would depend on how you installed. |
| 00:12.46 | gnarface | if it is installed, you should clearly see /usr/sbin/acpid running, and at the very least a /etc/acpi directory with one script and one "events" subdir |
| 00:13.19 | ewl | Do you know if there's any other way to configure how to suspend the laptop on closing the lid without acpi? |
| 00:13.48 | gnarface | yes, depending on hardware support |
| 00:14.05 | gnarface | some brands have their own hooks in firmware with kernel support |
| 00:14.19 | ewl | Well it's always worked with other distros. |
| 00:14.25 | gnarface | did it work with debian? |
| 00:14.42 | gnarface | if it worked with debian all you have to do is compare your package list there to figure out what you're missing |
| 00:15.05 | gnarface | but i suspect if you run "apt-get update && apt-get install acpi" it will give you what you were missing |
| 00:15.09 | ewl | Yes, but that's configured using the /etc/systemd/login..something or other file. |
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| 00:15.27 | ewl | okay thanks. |
| 00:15.35 | gnarface | oh, no you can poke at those values by directly manipulating the /sys directory or the /proc directory too. |
| 00:15.45 | gnarface | depending again as i said on available hardware support |
| 00:16.01 | gnarface | (dell, thinkpads, and really old toshibas have stuff like that i think?) |
| 00:16.28 | ewl | i installed acpi, still no /etc/acpi directory. |
| 00:16.34 | gnarface | (i mean, they all have it, but support for these features in some major brands leaked into linux occasionally) |
| 00:16.41 | gnarface | hmm |
| 00:17.11 | gnarface | suspicious |
| 00:17.27 | gnarface | did it install acpid and acpi-support-base too? |
| 00:17.33 | gnarface | if not, also install them |
| 00:17.33 | ewl | no |
| 00:18.24 | ewl | Okay, that did it. |
| 00:19.00 | gnarface | ok, you might still be missing stuff you expect to be present. please run this command to see what else looks familiar so you can install it too: apt-cache search ^acpi |
| 00:19.21 | gnarface | (the "^" is not a typo) |
| 00:23.03 | ewl | I just did apt install acpi* |
| 00:24.50 | ewl | Okay, it works. thanks. |
| 00:25.20 | gnarface | no problem |
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| 00:51.37 | Hurgotron | gnarface: network-manager works, thanks for the hint. And in general, this page was helpful: https://friendsofdevuan.org/doku.php/devuan-network-managers-and-notes |
| 00:51.59 | gnarface | ah, good to know, thanks Hurgotron |
| 00:54.26 | Hurgotron | FWIW, I'm installing an eeePC 901 go with Devuan, and the rather old hardware is really fun again :) |
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| 00:56.11 | Jolt2bolt | Hi! |
| 00:56.34 | fsmithred | Hi, and thanks for the warm welcome! |
| 00:56.48 | fsmithred | oh, I guess you joined after I did |
| 00:56.54 | Jolt2bolt | lol |
| 00:56.56 | Jolt2bolt | yep |
| 00:57.13 | Jolt2bolt | I came to resolve some doubt about devuan!:P |
| 00:57.34 | fsmithred | what doubt would that be? |
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| 01:03.26 | Jolt2bolt | well about hardware compatibility and what IF I doesn't have one |
| 01:03.39 | fsmithred | one what? |
| 01:03.44 | fsmithred | computer? |
| 01:03.58 | Jolt2bolt | I chose devuan because I want a deb based distro that usa openrc as main init... |
| 01:04.09 | Jolt2bolt | is an old canaima |
| 01:04.12 | fsmithred | ok, that's easy to do |
| 01:04.19 | gnarface | hardware compatibility should be identical to Debian, Jolt2bolt. there are differences in permissions defaults and behavior but the drivers and kernel are all the same exact things. |
| 01:04.37 | Jolt2bolt | I wonder that if in case that I might be forced to, Can i add the non free repo of debian? |
| 01:04.53 | fsmithred | no, add non-free to the devuan lines |
| 01:05.04 | gnarface | well... completely possible, but utterly useless and harmful. |
| 01:05.15 | fsmithred | devuan servers will pull from debian repos... |
| 01:05.23 | gnarface | it's not right to start that sentence with "no" technically, fsmithred. it'll work just as well as shooting yourself in the foot works to test your weapon |
| 01:05.25 | fsmithred | and run through a filter |
| 01:05.44 | gnarface | Jolt2bolt: he means "yes, but don't do that" |
| 01:05.50 | Jolt2bolt | ok |
| 01:06.03 | fsmithred | I meant no, don't add debian repos. |
| 01:06.09 | gnarface | right |
| 01:06.11 | Jolt2bolt | but devuan have their non free version? or something like that? |
| 01:06.17 | gnarface | it's all the same stuff Jolt2bolt |
| 01:06.18 | fsmithred | for the reasons gnarface gave |
| 01:06.32 | gnarface | Jolt2bolt: yes, the the non-free stuff from the devuan repos is all the same |
| 01:06.43 | gnarface | Jolt2bolt: if you put in debian urls it just confuses it |
| 01:07.00 | Jolt2bolt | ok, that's nice then! |
| 01:07.47 | Jolt2bolt | I was worried. It's a canaima. I don't thing I might need the nonfree to make it work but just in case, I rather have it at hand |
| 01:07.58 | Jolt2bolt | think* |
| 01:08.06 | fsmithred | openrc is not the default, but you can select it in expert install |
| 01:08.07 | gnarface | Jolt2bolt: here, for your reference, with the exception of this list of packages, the other 50,000 or so packages from debian are all present in devuan too: https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/bannedpackages.txt |
| 01:08.12 | fsmithred | or add it later |
| 01:08.31 | gnarface | 50,000... 100,000 whatever it is |
| 01:08.37 | Jolt2bolt | I wonder if the ucode are in that list!XDD |
| 01:08.40 | gnarface | only this couple dozen packages are missing |
| 01:08.56 | brocashelm | nice, i saw tecmint has articles on devuan already |
| 01:09.01 | fsmithred | ucodes are not banned, they are in non-free |
| 01:09.14 | Jolt2bolt | ummm |
| 01:09.38 | Jolt2bolt | but what is the main init of devuan? is it not openrc? o.o' |
| 01:09.46 | fsmithred | sysvinit is the default |
| 01:09.50 | Jolt2bolt | ummm |
| 01:10.03 | gnarface | (it's what Debian used to use by default before jessie) |
| 01:10.04 | fsmithred | openrc is installable and it works |
| 01:10.29 | Jolt2bolt | then is nice! I want Openrc!:D |
| 01:11.09 | Jolt2bolt | at least is not that bloated as systemd but it gives almost the same benefit (easy of use) |
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| 01:11.25 | specing | fsmithred: is openrc supported just as well as sysvinit (default)? |
| 01:11.38 | brocashelm | what about runit? thought that one was good |
| 01:11.57 | specing | I don't know, I am used to OpenRC as I use Gentoo |
| 01:11.58 | fsmithred | runit is available, but not from the installer |
| 01:12.11 | Jolt2bolt | runit is nice but I don't have the time to learn about it either... at least not right now |
| 01:12.27 | brocashelm | even using upstart is better than systemd (for ubuntu/mint) |
| 01:12.53 | brocashelm | systemd has been proving to be more and more sluggish lately, which doesn't surprise me |
| 01:12.54 | Jolt2bolt | I tried voidlinux and it's amazing, pretty fast and smaller than openrc |
| 01:13.08 | brocashelm | void is great. too bad about the main dev disappearing |
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| 01:13.47 | brocashelm | they had to clone the repo as they couldn't take over the original |
| 01:14.15 | Jolt2bolt | systemd is becoming what I predicted it would be... a plummet |
| 01:14.32 | Jolt2bolt | THe main dev appeared a while ago |
| 01:14.51 | Jolt2bolt | he took a sabatic without a notice |
| 01:15.07 | brocashelm | oh, ok |
| 01:15.43 | Jolt2bolt | the Current devs are struggling about giving it back the project to the dreator but they welcome him |
| 01:16.08 | Jolt2bolt | they preffer the project be handled by three main person like they have it right now |
| 01:16.19 | Jolt2bolt | to be handled* |
| 01:16.36 | specing | power corrupts |
| 01:17.06 | Jolt2bolt | it is not for the power but the fate of the project if the main disapear again |
| 01:17.25 | brocashelm | for the best |
| 01:17.31 | Jolt2bolt | it wasn't a sruggle of power at all. It was the main dissapeared |
| 01:17.47 | brocashelm | yes, he just vanished for a while |
| 01:17.51 | Jolt2bolt | aha |
| 01:19.07 | Jolt2bolt | but the coomunity is nice, the problem is that the knowledge to intall void is pretty high because it lack a LOT of the basic configuration that most distro have!:P |
| 01:19.33 | Jolt2bolt | you even have to configure the TTY!XDD |
| 01:20.14 | specing | so Gentoo level? |
| 01:20.17 | specing | or worse? |
| 01:20.44 | Jolt2bolt | I think worse... at least gentoo have a pretty basic configuration... |
| 01:21.26 | Jolt2bolt | It loads the tty but the console doesn't have bash with the basic configuration, like history and so... |
| 01:21.27 | brocashelm | *cloveros |
| 01:21.31 | brocashelm | jk |
| 01:21.52 | gnarface | you can just copy /etc/skel/ from devuan :-p |
| 01:22.00 | Jolt2bolt | it is a REALLY basic BASH |
| 01:22.33 | Jolt2bolt | not bad, you can learn a lot that way. The problem is that it lacks the documentation like gentoo have |
| 01:22.53 | specing | Jolt2bolt: you mean it is regular sh? |
| 01:23.25 | Jolt2bolt | I know... use "man" but man sometimes is not easy to read and it is harder if you're not a native english speaker... |
| 01:23.34 | specing | ? |
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| 01:24.06 | Jolt2bolt | yep, like it is come when you compile from source... |
| 01:24.54 | specing | sense making you not are |
| 01:25.03 | Jolt2bolt | (is my case... sometimes I loose in the tecnic language...) |
| 01:26.15 | gnarface | as a native english speaker, i can tell you that most those man pages weren't written by someone who was |
| 01:26.18 | Jolt2bolt | technicality |
| 01:26.35 | fsmithred | sometime being a native english speaker doesn't help |
| 01:26.51 | fsmithred | to read them, I mean |
| 01:27.00 | Jolt2bolt | a native speaker? is it in elven or dwarvish? |
| 01:27.04 | fsmithred | maybe doesn't necessarily help to write them, either |
| 01:27.59 | Jolt2bolt | Thanks! That make me feel like smart again. I though I was pretty stupid because I couldn't understand it at all... |
| 01:28.15 | Jolt2bolt | specially the old man pages one |
| 01:28.31 | fsmithred | <-- old man who reads pages |
| 01:29.00 | fsmithred | after 19 years, they're starting to make sense |
| 01:29.27 | Jolt2bolt | I men the Manual pages that are for pretty old and basic command that seems that was written by an ancient alien civilitation or something like that |
| 01:29.35 | Jolt2bolt | mean* |
| 01:30.02 | gnarface | Jolt2bolt: you mean the shorthand notations? check out "man man" |
| 01:30.21 | gnarface | they really screwed with me for a long time too |
| 01:30.29 | gnarface | if i had known man had a man page itself, it would have saved me literal years |
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| 01:30.40 | Jolt2bolt | lol |
| 01:30.43 | gnarface | (embarrassing too, that i didn't even think to look for it) |
| 01:31.33 | Jolt2bolt | I particulary readthe man page of man and I understood a bit but some part it seems like a encrypted language to me if I'm honest.. |
| 01:31.37 | gnarface | oh, also this is a small thing but if you have "less" installed, then search and navigation in man pages is a little friendlier. you almost always will have "less" installed but it is possible to omit it from in a normal installation. |
| 01:32.35 | gnarface | (key symptoms of this are not being able to scroll back or navigate with arrow-keys, and not being able to do case-insensitive searches) |
| 01:33.16 | gnarface | (but emacs has a much nicer man page reader anyway :-p) |
| 01:33.19 | Jolt2bolt | I didn't realize that less is always intalled in most distros... |
| 01:33.36 | Jolt2bolt | what about vim?u.u |
| 01:33.57 | gnarface | vim should be present by default, if i recall |
| 01:34.09 | specing | gnarface: far from it |
| 01:34.28 | specing | vi is, and it provided by busybox |
| 01:34.33 | Jolt2bolt | lol |
| 01:34.40 | Jolt2bolt | neovim? |
| 01:34.40 | gnarface | specing: i thought that copy of vi was just a symlink to vim. no? |
| 01:34.48 | specing | I don't know how to use vi and I'm a vim user |
| 01:34.56 | Jolt2bolt | what the difference between vi, vim and neovim? |
| 01:34.56 | specing | gnarface: if you install vim, sure |
| 01:35.07 | gnarface | oh, i didn't realize there was still non-vim vi in the distro |
| 01:35.24 | Jolt2bolt | what's* |
| 01:35.28 | gnarface | i thought it was always vim, and it just has different defaults depending on how it was invoked |
| 01:35.38 | gnarface | but obviously it's not what i'm using |
| 01:36.19 | gnarface | "less" is one of the things included in tasksel "standard system utilities" - otherwise man defaults to using "more" for the paging |
| 01:36.22 | Jolt2bolt | lol, vi es different than vimmm |
| 01:36.45 | Jolt2bolt | I didn't realized that until you say so.. |
| 01:37.14 | Jolt2bolt | the commands are different for both.. |
| 01:37.20 | gnarface | Jolt2bolt: vim is actually a GNU fork of an ancient unix text editor that was actually part of the Posix standard |
| 01:37.54 | gnarface | but effort was made to use it as a drop-in replacement for vi |
| 01:38.09 | watchcat | the man pages with good examples are the most helpful. |
| 01:38.15 | gnarface | i agree |
| 01:38.15 | Jolt2bolt | oh! so vi is a posix standart editor? |
| 01:38.38 | gnarface | Jolt2bolt: yea, technically you couldn't call it Unix unless it comes with vi |
| 01:39.00 | gnarface | (amongst a number of other things i forget) |
| 01:39.15 | Jolt2bolt | sadly, the manpages with good example are few. FOr example, I LOVE the Tint2 manpage!! |
| 01:39.41 | Jolt2bolt | it is the first manpage wrote by a normal human |
| 01:40.09 | Jolt2bolt | ^.^ |
| 01:40.25 | Jolt2bolt | go ahead and try it... |
| 01:40.56 | Jolt2bolt | tint2 is a pretty nice taskbar!:D |
| 01:41.25 | gnarface | eh, i don't like taskbars, but i'll keep it in mind |
| 01:42.08 | Jolt2bolt | I like it for my openbox setup |
| 01:42.32 | Jolt2bolt | but I use polybar as my main!:D |
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| 01:43.53 | Xenguy | .oO( nvi ) |
| 01:45.00 | Xenguy | Jolt2bolt: An 'Examples' section should be *mandatory* for man pages |
| 01:45.05 | Xenguy | Absolutely |
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| 01:45.47 | Jolt2bolt | but they naver put examples at all... |
| 01:46.02 | Jolt2bolt | we have to guess ALWAYS!! |
| 01:46.11 | fsmithred | lots of pages have examples |
| 01:46.11 | Xenguy | Somebody said the BSDs have more examples in their man pages? Dunno |
| 01:46.25 | Xenguy | But some linux man pages have examples, but too few of them do |
| 01:47.02 | gnarface | the BSDs have better curated man pages in general across the board, but they have less stuff too, so there aren't as many targets |
| 01:47.26 | Xenguy | It's such a simple thing that makes such a difference |
| 01:47.40 | Xenguy | Hopefully it will catch on |
| 01:47.44 | gnarface | it really is, but it's not the fun part of development |
| 01:48.19 | Xenguy | Well, it's true, though as my dear brother loves to opine: 'Completeness matters' |
| 01:48.23 | Jolt2bolt | why I didn't try BSD before... I think it was their lack of support in graphic card i think |
| 01:48.24 | Xenguy | 8 -D |
| 01:48.51 | Xenguy | Jolt2bolt: I tried OpenBSD in a VM, but hit a snag also |
| 01:50.41 | watchcat | the simplest case, a commonly-used case, and a case or two that show non-obvious use or common mistakes would be enough. |
| 01:50.50 | Xenguy | Exactly |
| 01:51.11 | Jolt2bolt | amen to that! |
| 01:51.22 | Xenguy | Can I have an Amen?! |
| 01:51.49 | Xenguy | thinks of The Eagles of Death Metal, or whoever they are ... |
| 01:52.04 | watchcat | hallelujah brothers and sisters! |
| 01:52.17 | Xenguy | hah |
| 01:52.31 | Xenguy | Like a gospel revival meeting |
| 01:52.48 | Jolt2bolt | by the way? should download the desktop version or the minimal live? |
| 01:52.58 | Xenguy | Anyhow, probably OT, (sorry about that Chief!) |
| 01:53.17 | gnarface | Jolt2bolt: probably the netinstall one if you have to ask |
| 01:53.19 | Xenguy | Jolt2bolt: There's a netinstall |
| 01:53.42 | Jolt2bolt | ummm... |
| 01:53.57 | Xenguy | umma gumma |
| 01:54.22 | gnarface | the iso with "netinstall" and either "i386" or "amd64" in the name as appropriate for your machine |
| 01:54.38 | watchcat | netinstall > deselect all tasksel options > add only what you want |
| 01:54.43 | Jolt2bolt | I don't want to download byt the installer... to slow conection... I rather download the complete version that aoffers all the packages.. |
| 01:55.17 | Xenguy | hrm |
| 01:55.18 | gnarface | Jolt2bolt: the problem with that is it's already out of date enough you'll have to update all the packages afterwards anwyay. so you think you're just downloading everything at once but you're actually forcing yourself to download most of it twice |
| 01:55.24 | Jolt2bolt | but if I want to use a custom install I think I need to use the netinstall, right? |
| 01:55.47 | gnarface | no, that's false, only the "live" installers are uncustomizable |
| 01:56.07 | watchcat | good point, gnarface |
| 01:56.20 | gnarface | but there's nothing you can do with any installer that can't be changed afterwards if you're patient enough |
| 01:56.26 | Xenguy | Jolt2bolt: The netinstall is the best 'minimal' option, and it also offers you maximum flexibility of what you install |
| 01:56.27 | Jolt2bolt | so installer iso or netinstall then, right? |
| 01:56.35 | gnarface | yea |
| 01:57.01 | fsmithred | if you have a fast connection, just get the netinstall |
| 01:57.11 | Xenguy | You just need to have a (wired) net connection for it to work |
| 01:57.11 | Jolt2bolt | I want to install a base system in case the electricy or the intenet conection fails... |
| 01:57.12 | fsmithred | you're better off installing from a mirror anyway |
| 01:57.25 | Jolt2bolt | I don't have a fast conection at all |
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| 01:57.39 | Xenguy | Then netinstall for sure |
| 01:57.47 | gnarface | Jolt2bolt: the netinstall should have enough packages on it already to complete a bootable install even without a network connection. it just won't have much else on it. |
| 01:57.53 | fsmithred | or borrow a fast connection to get the dvd |
| 01:57.53 | Xenguy | It's as minimal as it get AFAIK |
| 01:58.13 | Jolt2bolt | 2mb or 50kb ~ 120kb |
| 01:58.45 | gnarface | heh, everyone complaining about 2MB |
| 01:58.56 | gnarface | and i never thought i'd live to see network connections that fast |
| 01:59.18 | Xenguy | I remember leaving my phone on all night to d/l the latest dist-upgrade... |
| 01:59.28 | Xenguy | Everything since then has been gravy train :P |
| 01:59.56 | Xenguy | ^^ Dialup |
| 02:01.00 | djph | gnarface: heh, how things change, yeah? |
| 02:01.38 | Jolt2bolt | net install it is then!;D |
| 02:01.45 | gnarface | indeed |
| 02:01.59 | Xenguy | : -) |
| 02:02.51 | Jolt2bolt | 298mb... so small... |
| 02:03.04 | Jolt2bolt | one hour!:P |
| 02:03.16 | Xenguy | Doable, that's the way we like it |
| 02:09.08 | Jolt2bolt | LOl |
| 02:09.32 | Jolt2bolt | well, I gotta go, I will leave this downloading the iso!:P |
| 02:09.58 | Jolt2bolt | a nice wget -c url && shutdown -h now |
| 02:10.11 | Jolt2bolt | and go to bed... googd night!;D |
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| 02:11.38 | watchcat | for the guys who have to use netinstall without network, it would be great to have generic /etc/network/interfaces and etc/apt/sources.list to just plug in later to get network up. wicd and dependencies would be nice for wifi users, too, in that case. |
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| 10:37.31 | roo^y | After gparted didn't start for me on the live boot of Refracta, it worked 1st try with 'sudo gparted' on the full install |
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