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| 00:26.52 | *** topic/#devuan is beta2 is out: http://ur1.ca/q572u ** https://devuan.org/ discussion channel (logged at https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan - with useful 'search') | Please take off-topic conversation to #debianfork | /msg chanserv info #devuan | !listkeys #devuan <foo> | Devuan Forum: https://dev1galaxy.org/ |
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| 00:31.02 | *** topic/#devuan is beta2 is out: http://ur1.ca/q572u ** https://devuan.org/ discussion channel (logged at https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan - with useful 'search') | Please take off-topic conversation to #debianfork | /msg chanserv info #devuan | !listkeys #devuan <foo> | Devuan Forum: https://dev1galaxy.org/ |
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| 01:45.32 | Xenguy | jaromil: Hi, I've thinking about your comments this morning, and I think I have a point of view to offer... |
| 01:46.36 | Xenguy | I think it might be a good idea to offer even beginner support via IRC (unless there's no demand for that), and if so, it then becomes a question of which channel would host that... |
| 01:47.06 | Xenguy | Some projects create a #dev-_______ channel, for the hardcore dev chat... |
| 01:47.24 | Xenguy | Er, rather, <channel>-dev |
| 01:47.57 | Xenguy | And then the #regular channel becomes a free-for-all tech channel |
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| 01:48.12 | Xenguy | Anyhow, just thinking out loud... |
| 01:48.43 | Xenguy | Debian IRC channel people are quite used to asking tech problem questions via IRC, and like doing so... |
| 01:49.08 | Xenguy | So, just suggesting that might be a useful option, and then how to best implement, or allow |
| 01:49.18 | Xenguy | Thanks for listening |
| 01:52.19 | Xenguy | P.S. I just recently helped someone install Devuan on there formerly W!ndows system, and it would be nice to be able to say, hey check out this thing called IRC, you can /join this channel to get help via IRC |
| 01:52.22 | Xenguy | etc. |
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| 02:12.07 | golinux | Xenguy: #devuan is Devuan's help channel where users - even beginners - can come to ask questions. Sometimes the flow turns to more technical discussions. I don't see a problem with that. |
| 02:12.41 | Xenguy | Thanks golinux , I'm glad to hear that... |
| 02:13.46 | Xenguy | jaromil 's comments this morning were also addressing an issue of providing a suitable environment for developers, so I get that too |
| 02:13.57 | golinux | But devs who are guiding the RC probably should be putting their energies elsewhere |
| 02:14.08 | golinux | We have our luittle space already. ;) |
| 02:14.43 | golinux | -u |
| 02:15.03 | Xenguy | Well the idea of creating a <channel>-dev channel seems to have some precedence, FWIW |
| 02:15.17 | golinux | Duh . . . |
| 02:15.31 | Xenguy | Huh? |
| 02:16.05 | golinux | That ship sailed years ago. ;) |
| 02:16.29 | DocScrutinizer05 | :-D |
| 02:16.59 | Xenguy | OK, so what's the current birds-eye low-down on this caper? |
| 02:17.00 | DocScrutinizer05 | /msg alis list *devuan* |
| 02:17.20 | Xenguy | uh huh |
| 02:17.45 | Xenguy | Well much ado about nothing then, harumph ;-) |
| 02:18.42 | furrywolf | was there really a fucking ANOTHER argument about the concept that a mostly-silent irc channel might be used for multiple purposes? |
| 02:19.14 | Xenguy | slaps furrywolf to attention, twice... |
| 02:20.58 | Xenguy | wonders if slapping is allowed anymore... |
| 02:21.16 | Xenguy | stabs systemd... |
| 02:21.44 | Xenguy | .oO( If stabbing is allowed, then surely slapping is alright... ) |
| 02:22.11 | Xenguy | First |
| 02:23.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | jaromil's rreasoning wasn't about inappropriate irc channel but about devels and their focus on particular tasks. AIUI it basically been not addressed to users in here but to KatolaZ and other devels |
| 02:24.15 | Xenguy | I totally get the focus that key devs need to have |
| 02:24.36 | Xenguy | I'm just looking for a place to direct my buddy who's new to gnu/linux |
| 02:25.21 | Xenguy | Sounds like it's all good |
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| 02:25.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | I guess you found the right channel already, unless maybe #linux or somesuch |
| 02:26.59 | DocScrutinizer05 | ##linux rather (never been there but it has >2k users) |
| 02:27.24 | Xenguy | Too generic, #devuan is the channel to be |
| 02:27.32 | Xenguy | wow that's a lot of users |
| 02:27.34 | furrywolf | >2k users, ~2 of which might actually provide help. |
| 02:27.54 | furrywolf | and several hundred of which only show up when they see something they can troll about |
| 02:27.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | prolly, yes |
| 02:28.27 | Xenguy | Damn , it ain't the Golden Years of IRC anymore :-) |
| 02:28.39 | Xenguy | But I'm still lovin' it |
| 02:28.52 | DocScrutinizer05 | still >>whatapp ;-) |
| 02:29.04 | Xenguy | Is the the FB thing? |
| 02:29.15 | DocScrutinizer05 | guess so |
| 02:29.35 | Xenguy | Most folks aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer |
| 02:29.37 | DocScrutinizer05 | never touched it but I heard suckerberg seized it |
| 02:29.42 | Xenguy | I'm am sorry to report |
| 02:30.20 | DocScrutinizer05 | not that whatsapp was a sane idea before suckerberg |
| 02:30.53 | Xenguy | There's a strange difference between clever and clue |
| 02:31.06 | Xenguy | Hard to articulate sometimes |
| 02:31.51 | Xenguy | Hard to evaluate too |
| 02:32.45 | ahura | . > .. |
| 02:33.38 | Xenguy | you're right, math is your rock of gibraltar |
| 02:36.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | duh, I never tried what's going to happen when I redirect output to a dir (..) |
| 02:36.36 | DocScrutinizer05 | I guess a smart shell will refuse to do this |
| 02:37.35 | DocScrutinizer05 | also: |
| 02:37.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | bash: .: filename argument required |
| 02:37.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | .: usage: . filename [arguments] |
| 02:40.06 | Digit | help. ceres/unstable repos, & i updated openttd; can no longer play multiplayer. have 1.7, need 1.6.1. re-enabled jessie repo, it only has 1.4.4-2. ideas? how does one get the 1.6.1 that's standard for multiplayer, in devuan? do i have to go off repo n get it manually?? eek. help. |
| 02:40.30 | Xenguy | Aha, the bleeding edge |
| 02:41.06 | Xenguy | Iggy Pop used to cut himself onstage, so he was bleeding |
| 02:41.25 | DocScrutinizer05 | indeed: date >.. bash: ..: Is a directory |
| 02:41.28 | Xenguy | some of the audience were into it, but others were not |
| 02:42.36 | Digit | currently my best idea is wait in hope it's not long before multiplayer moves to 1.7.0, ... that is, 2nd best idea, after asking ^ in #devuan. :3 (and carrying on investigating) |
| 02:43.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | is it in debian? |
| 02:44.21 | DocScrutinizer05 | you're aware devuan and debian are "in sync" and actually 95% of packages are from debian mirrors even when they look like you got them from devuan? |
| 02:44.39 | DocScrutinizer05 | !amprolla |
| 02:44.39 | infobot | nextime gave an excellent explanation how amprolla works, at https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan/2016-05-07/?msg=65646427&page=4, or https://git.devuan.org/devuan-infrastructure/amprolla |
| 02:46.47 | DocScrutinizer05 | so as a general approach you can get debian packages on devuan, just download and install them, as long as that very approach is supposed to work in debian too |
| 02:47.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | you should avoid to permanently add debian repos to your repository list though |
| 02:53.45 | DocScrutinizer05 | why the heck is konqueror telling me "invalid cert" on https://devuan.org/ while firefox thinks it's fine? |
| 02:54.46 | DocScrutinizer05 | am I supposed to add a LE root CA cert to my trusted certs? |
| 02:56.03 | DocScrutinizer05 | hmm no, prolly a hiccup in konqueror? |
| 02:59.19 | DocScrutinizer05 | Digit: anyway check https://devuan.org/os/packages/list/forked-from-debian - all other packages are genuine debian |
| 03:01.17 | DocScrutinizer05 | 381 packages, devuan already approaching status of a real fork :-) |
| 03:03.38 | DocScrutinizer05 | when debian folks go "BUT.. BUT.. why do you need to fork? you simply could uninstall systemd on debian as well!" just point them to this :-D |
| 03:13.54 | |234c7 | anyone know what the command for updating Blackarch as apk -get update && apk -get upgrade isn't working... |
| 03:14.41 | DocScrutinizer05 | sounds like #arch |
| 03:15.54 | DocScrutinizer05 | or rather #archlinux ? |
| 03:18.14 | DocScrutinizer05 | /msg alis list *blackarch* |
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| 03:32.52 | arc1 | Anyone in here have experience installing devuan to the internal memory on an asus c201? |
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| 05:35.50 | *** topic/#devuan is beta2 is out: http://ur1.ca/q572u ** https://devuan.org/ discussion channel (logged at https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan - with useful 'search') | Please take off-topic conversation to #debianfork | /msg chanserv info #devuan | !listkeys #devuan <foo> | Devuan Forum: https://dev1galaxy.org/ |
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| 07:12.29 | AntoFox1 | o/ |
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| 07:13.52 | AntoFox1 | golinux are you there? |
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| 08:07.14 | aitor | g'morning |
| 08:08.30 | aitor | AntoFox1: our den mother lives in US, i think |
| 08:08.46 | aitor | 4:10 there |
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| 13:30.01 | tdm4 | hi.. how do I upgrade to devuan from jessie? I was searching around the site but all I could find were half-made wikis and incomplete question pages |
| 13:31.47 | tdm4 | and git.devuan.org seems to 502 :( |
| 13:31.56 | DusXMT | First, you'll need to switch to using sysvinit in debian. Then, change the repositories, install the keyring, and dist-upgrade; then you'll be able to remove any systemd packages |
| 13:32.26 | tdm4 | DusXMT: cool.. where are the details to do that? |
| 13:32.33 | DusXMT | http://without-systemd.org I think |
| 13:33.10 | tdm4 | ah got it.. thanks |
| 13:33.29 | DusXMT | np |
| 13:50.14 | tdm4 | DusXMT: cool.. ditched systemd .. hd to remove networkmanager and libvirt stuff (KEMU).. added the devuan repos but it's complaining about the GPG key not being there |
| 13:50.35 | KatolaZ | tdm4: apt-get install devuan-keyring |
| 13:51.34 | tdm4 | could I then upgrade to ceres once I switch over? been trying to get something a bit newer |
| 13:51.46 | KatolaZ | tdm4: at your own risk |
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| 13:58.47 | gnarface | tdm4: note that after you switch, if you wish to upgrade to ceres, FIRST upgrade to ascii. never skip a release during upgrades. it *might* mostly work but usually breaks *some* stuff quietly in the background. (it's not supported in debian either) |
| 13:59.21 | tdm4 | well, I noticed libsystemd:amd64 is still installed.. removed it, and found a load of packages disappear too.. |
| 13:59.43 | tdm4 | bunch of them with -devuan in the release |
| 13:59.45 | tdm4 | is that normal? |
| 13:59.56 | gnarface | the runtime libraries are still a package and compilation dependency throughout the system. you should leave those there. |
| 14:00.28 | gnarface | the ones that are named starting with systemd* (not libsystemd*) are the harmful ones |
| 14:01.28 | tdm4 | nods |
| 14:02.00 | tdm4 | wonder what the heck is in libsystemd |
| 14:02.14 | gnarface | the plan as i understand it is to remove the libsystemd* stuff too, but that's a lot more work than just pulling the systemd daemon itself |
| 14:02.27 | gnarface | (and that's why jessie is still "beta") |
| 14:02.56 | KatolaZ | tdm4: there is not much in libsystemd0 |
| 14:03.08 | gnarface | nonetheless, i haven't had any bugs or problems with it that debian didn't also have, except for stuff that is hardcoded for pulseaudio or systemd particulars (udev crap) |
| 14:03.16 | KatolaZ | and if you don't have systemd, it does not matter that much |
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| 14:16.58 | DusXMT | hmmm... http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/How_to_remove_systemd_from_a_Debian_jessie/sid_installation#polkit ... "policykit-1 : Depends: libpam-systemd but it is not going to be installed" |
| 14:17.11 | DusXMT | (this is a powerpc system, so I have to stick to debian for now) |
| 14:19.17 | tdm4 | do you guys get rid of pulseaudio too? and use ALSA? |
| 14:19.23 | tdm4 | though I think firefox broke lately with that :( |
| 14:19.53 | DusXMT | Nope, but you can easily remove it, I have it removed and experienced no issues so far :) |
| 14:20.35 | golinux | And Steve Pusser has gotten apulse to work with FF |
| 14:21.27 | tdm4 | is it similar? remove pulseaudio* but keep the libpulse*? |
| 14:21.42 | DusXMT | Yup, it's a link-time dependency |
| 14:23.27 | DusXMT | I wonder why that "policykit from wheezy" trick doesn't work on my setup though |
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| 14:30.56 | golinux | AntoFox: Saw you called me while I was sleeping |
| 14:31.02 | tdm4 | hmm there a package for apulse? |
| 14:31.24 | golinux | tdm4: Give me a sec |
| 14:31.58 | AntoFox | golinux: o/ |
| 14:32.46 | golinux | tdm4: http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?p=639579#p639579 |
| 14:33.00 | golinux | Read the first post for his repo info. |
| 14:33.09 | golinux | AntoFox: Hi! |
| 14:35.54 | DusXMT | (oh well, I guess I can live with systemd as a package but not running as PID1 for the time being) |
| 14:37.17 | DusXMT | (I say "for the time being", as I remember hearing plans in this channel to support this platform as well~) |
| 14:41.14 | tdm4 | cool cheers |
| 14:42.21 | tdm4 | hmm I don't have apulse but still getting sound from Firefox 52.. but I think it's ESR.. so that must be ESR 36? |
| 14:42.47 | tdm4 | 52.0.2 (64-bit) but it says 'Firefox ESR' up top |
| 14:43.11 | gnarface | i think the pulseaudio change was after the ESR version |
| 14:45.06 | tdm4 | do you think they'll reverse it? |
| 14:45.32 | tdm4 | I don't get why people are so in love with pulseaudio and systemd.. they're both crappily written pieces of garbage |
| 14:47.13 | gnarface | it's just a RedHat power grab |
| 14:47.31 | Xenguy | ^^ This (imho) |
| 14:47.49 | Lydia_K | A hightly successful Redhat power grab |
| 14:47.56 | DusXMT | would've thought RedHat would be a mark of quality a couple years ago... |
| 14:48.17 | Lydia_K | They like money. |
| 14:48.35 | zdzichu | that would be a small part of RH power grab |
| 14:48.50 | zdzichu | check this: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Red_Hat_contributions |
| 14:49.17 | gnarface | it's working on other distros too, because they're appealing to the lazier impulses of apathetic developers and maintainers |
| 14:49.38 | tdm4 | Linux has become very fractious lately |
| 14:49.59 | tdm4 | I tried FreeBSD 11 .. it works well enough on my laptop.. just can't get google hangouts working on it |
| 14:50.38 | DusXMT | wishes he had more BSD-friendly hardware... is stuck with linux |
| 14:50.50 | gnarface | i think the motto here is "don't panic and keep forking debian" |
| 14:51.02 | Lydia_K | BSD is like the emergency ejection seat when all else is lost (at least for me) |
| 14:51.18 | tdm4 | nods .. fair enough |
| 14:51.53 | gnarface | in the nearly 20 years i've been working with open source software, what has been the most impressive to me is how it just keeps going even though it's apparent everyone involved has been trying to destroy it from the inside out the entire time |
| 14:51.58 | Lydia_K | I really love the philosophy that drives the linux ecosystem, and while it's been being co-opted by big business money-making interests I am not willing to let it go down without a fight. |
| 14:52.42 | Lydia_K | That's my hope as well gnarface, that this bump in the road will be just that, a bump in the road, a dark time before things got brighter again. |
| 14:54.48 | tdm4 | gnarface: you're not wrong! :) |
| 14:56.38 | tdm4 | Lydia_K: I hope so |
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| 14:57.14 | Lydia_K | Everything happens in cycles, I don't think this will be any different. |
| 14:57.43 | thijso | I've actually been switching my servers over to devuan. My media/emby server is now devuan, as well as my puppetmaster. Glad there is a debian based (apt-get/aptitude is a must have for me) distro that is systemd-less (well, except for the libsystemd0, but can live with that for now)... Hope the linux world wakes up and kicks the crap out again... |
| 14:58.02 | thijso | Not holding my breath, though... |
| 15:01.07 | Lydia_K | It till eventually, a mess of monolithic interconnected undocumented ABI's is not the linux way |
| 15:01.36 | DusXMT | Thing is, most people don't see it as a problem, and many developers are glad that they now only have to target a single unified linux |
| 15:01.36 | tdm4 | I've been hoping for devuan AWS ami images.. at work we run a smattering of Ubuntu 14.04 and 16.04.. I absolutely despise 16.04 as it's become infested with systemd... runs really badly. |
| 15:02.06 | tdm4 | got this ubuntu 16.04 server running SOLR in a jetty8 wrapper.. systemd thinks jetty8 isn't running when it actually is. |
| 15:02.18 | Lydia_K | An ami would be simple enough to put together. |
| 15:02.22 | DusXMT | By "most", I mean the uneducated user, and those who find it to work "just fine" for them |
| 15:02.28 | tdm4 | puppet checks in.. tries to start jetty8.. and fails until I ssh into the box to kill jetty8 |
| 15:02.41 | Lydia_K | DusXMT: Those people have never been the target users of linux anyway |
| 15:03.03 | DusXMT | Lydia_K: The thing is, they bring popularity to the platform |
| 15:03.37 | Lydia_K | And platforms fork |
| 15:03.39 | golinux | Since when is 'popularity' a good thing? Usually the beginning of the end from my experience |
| 15:04.08 | DusXMT | I just hope the manpower to keep the fork alive will not run out |
| 15:04.30 | Lydia_K | I can easily see a windowsy type linux made for morons pushed by Redhat where it's practically impossible to administer without special GUI tools, and then real linux flourishing off in a different direction |
| 15:07.04 | golinux | Isn't that already happening? |
| 15:09.15 | Lydia_K | It really is |
| 15:10.05 | gnarface | there is a couple ways it could break out |
| 15:10.24 | gnarface | i'm not sure if the hardware vendors really understand their stake in all this, or how much influence they really have |
| 15:10.37 | gnarface | well, Nvidia gets it, but they've decided to use their influence for evil obviously |
| 15:10.42 | gnarface | the rest of them... i'm not so sure |
| 15:10.55 | Lydia_K | What's nvidia been doing? |
| 15:11.16 | gnarface | pulseaudio doesn't solve a lot of *real* problems that the soundcard vendors couldn't obviate |
| 15:11.41 | muep | Lydia_K: in my experience RHEL or its clones can be managed just fine without GUI tools |
| 15:11.49 | gnarface | nvidia has just been wasting everyone's time by not contributing to DRI |
| 15:11.56 | gnarface | and not using mesa |
| 15:12.11 | gnarface | they're over on the side lines trying to ram their square peg in a round hole |
| 15:12.12 | Lydia_K | muep: That's not the direction they are heading in though. |
| 15:12.34 | gnarface | (and their approach is fundamentally insecure) |
| 15:12.36 | muep | not saying that it is perfect in every way, but I'd prefer if people criticized things that really exist there |
| 15:13.15 | gnarface | i wouldn't be angry at network-manager if the quality control wasn't so low |
| 15:14.25 | gnarface | and avahi will never be installed on servers anywhere the sysadmins have a clue |
| 15:14.54 | Lydia_K | shakes her fist at avahi |
| 15:15.37 | DusXMT | wonders why tasksel installs it on a clean install... |
| 15:15.55 | gnarface | DusXMT: some WM you chose probably |
| 15:16.12 | DusXMT | gnarface: No, even without one, with just the 'standard system utilities' selected |
| 15:16.30 | gnarface | really? |
| 15:16.34 | DusXMT | doesn't use tasksel for installing the desktop |
| 15:16.42 | gnarface | hmmm.... i usually uncheck all |
| 15:17.04 | gnarface | you're on unstable, DusXMT? i think jessie is not doing that |
| 15:17.14 | DusXMT | On the contrary, on Jessie |
| 15:17.27 | gnarface | interesting |
| 15:17.39 | gnarface | did i really remove it? |
| 15:17.47 | gnarface | hmmm |
| 15:18.02 | gnarface | checks some things |
| 15:18.32 | gnarface | hmmm |
| 15:18.40 | gnarface | well usually i don't select standard system utils |
| 15:18.49 | gnarface | but on this one i really don't remember removing avahi |
| 15:18.55 | gnarface | and i DID select standard system utils... |
| 15:20.54 | gnarface | eh, well maybe i just got so used to removing it from ceres i just did it reflexively and forgot |
| 15:21.48 | Xenguy | I'm looking at the wikipedia article on avahi, but I don't really understand its purpose or usefulness |
| 15:22.10 | Xenguy | Can I uninstall it without shooting myself in the foot? |
| 15:22.20 | gnarface | i think it's like someone's answer to bonjour on osx |
| 15:22.43 | Xenguy | LP was involved with the coding also |
| 15:22.48 | DusXMT | I think it's usef for OSX interoperability? |
| 15:23.31 | gnarface | basically if you're like "hey why shouldn't all the computers just stop asking each other for passwords, and all automatically connect and auto-configure themselves magically" it's for you |
| 15:24.01 | Xenguy | That sounds like the opposite of what I prefer ;-) |
| 15:24.07 | gnarface | primary annoyance is if you're expecting your network interface NOT to ifdown when you unplug the cable, it'll be a big disappointment |
| 15:24.27 | gnarface | super annoying |
| 15:24.37 | Lydia_K | It breaks a lot of other stuff too |
| 15:24.59 | muep | gnarface: that's not what it does though. mostly it just haves computers broadcast on the LAN that they are there and what their name is and what services there are |
| 15:25.11 | Lydia_K | I've had it break all kinds of annoying things, and at the last place I worked where our local domain was .local.. it broke everything. |
| 15:25.25 | muep | afaik it does not participate e.g. in authentication or authorization |
| 15:26.24 | tdm4 | you need avahi if you got macs and other apple devices on the network |
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| 15:26.56 | gnarface | but it does participate in root-level system configuration like network addresses, which could be used to gain access to said authorization |
| 15:27.08 | muep | tdm4: you do? sure you can find your mac from the LAN if you install avahi but that is not the only way to find them |
| 15:27.09 | gnarface | it makes the network fundamentally less secure |
| 15:27.21 | gnarface | at least on osx |
| 15:27.35 | muep | you can also use e.g. nmap or you can go use the mac and check its ip address with some tool |
| 15:27.37 | gnarface | i don't really know what avahi does on linux other than break my connection |
| 15:28.40 | gnarface | DusXMT: is it a laptop? |
| 15:29.01 | gnarface | DusXMT: i wonder if avahi comes with some laptop packages? |
| 15:29.18 | muep | I've never have had it break a connection. but I'd really avoid using a .local domain for anything else because quite many things want to use that for autodetected hostnames |
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| 15:30.42 | DusXMT | gnarface: It was a debian chroot actually, it might be that it was removed from the defaults in Devuan |
| 15:30.43 | muep | so you can only really use *.local if you can be reasonably sure that users of services are not using apple devices or other things that try to use mdns for resolving *.local names |
| 15:30.45 | Lydia_K | Oh yes, that company should not have been using .local, that is generally discouraged |
| 15:32.28 | muep | especially companies can usually just pick some names from under some domain that they have anyway |
| 15:33.38 | Lydia_K | It's hard to change something like that once it's been implimented and a jillion things at the company now rely on it :p |
| 15:33.41 | Lydia_K | you get stuck with it. |
| 15:34.20 | muep | yeah I know, companies say that we will keep doing $SOME_SILLY_THING because that's how it has always been |
| 15:36.32 | Lydia_K | Well yeah, there's lots of that "We don't want to change" at every place, but there also the cost factor, making big disruptive changes to any large environment costs a ton of time for engineers, apps people, and lost working time for when things are down and being moved/fixed/whatever, often it's a huge investment of money and sometimes not worth it at all. |
| 15:37.09 | Lydia_K | That company will *never* leave .local as their internal domain suffix, not worth the cost at all. |
| 15:37.31 | Lydia_K | they never should have done it in the first place.. but.. too late now.. |
| 15:39.18 | muep | yeah some things are difficult to change, but I've also seen e.g. "let's keep writing scripts with #!/bin/sh despite that many don't know what are bash features and what are posix features" |
| 15:41.04 | Lydia_K | shudders |
| 15:41.11 | Lydia_K | Oh yes, I agree, that happens often |
| 15:41.20 | Lydia_K | I've been trying to ween my users off csh.. |
| 15:41.37 | Lydia_K | some of the csh scripts they have.. thank goodness they are all becoming legacy, but that's still a long road. |
| 15:41.58 | Lydia_K | Changing technology is easy, it's changing the culture around the technology that is difficult. |
| 15:43.03 | Lydia_K | csh scripts that generate csh scripts that generate csh scripts that execute.. *shudders* |
| 15:43.50 | tdm4 | csh is pretty evil :) |
| 15:44.48 | muep | why, by the way? I know csh badly enough that I have to find some cheat sheet whenever I have to interact with it |
| 15:45.45 | Lydia_K | http://www.grymoire.com/unix/CshTop10.txt |
| 15:45.53 | Lydia_K | http://www.perl.com/doc/FMTEYEWTK/versus/csh.whynot |
| 15:46.17 | muep | at least posix shell and bash are full of traps and pitfalls. I have hard time imagining why csh would be worse |
| 15:46.18 | Lydia_K | There's lots more like that, those are just some of the two top hits on google. |
| 15:46.22 | muep | but maybe should look at it a bit |
| 15:46.50 | Lydia_K | There are some serious issues with it, and I've run into a few of the very strange bugs where behavior is totall inconsistant |
| 15:46.53 | Lydia_K | *totally |
| 15:47.17 | Lydia_K | And my users, they are scientists, they do not write the best code, they are not professional programmers by any stretch |
| 15:47.25 | muep | and does this also apply to tcsh? |
| 15:47.38 | Lydia_K | In my personal experience, yes |
| 15:47.48 | muep | which is the only csh-ish shell that I have really interacted with |
| 15:48.22 | Lydia_K | debugging these things for them can be maddening. |
| 15:49.23 | Lydia_K | I don't know why grid engine still wants to default to using csh, it's horrible. |
| 15:49.58 | muep | does something in posix-like shells make it any better when you deal with software consisting of many layers of scripts calling and sourcing each other? |
| 15:51.30 | Lydia_K | It's more about the inconsistency that gets to me, I've had the exact same syntax work in one script, but not another, influenced by the other things happening before/after it |
| 15:51.48 | Lydia_K | makes it incredibly hard to debug when you look at the code and go "Well that's right" except that it's not.. |
| 15:51.53 | Lydia_K | but "sometimes" it is right. |
| 15:51.54 | muep | I do quite a lot of shell scripting but I usually try to keep it to just one simple script calling other tools. but every now and then I end up debugging these more complex shell constructions and find it pretty maddening too |
| 15:53.14 | Lydia_K | I wish I had an example on hand, but I honestly don't. |
| 15:53.41 | Lydia_K | but there have been some times where I've been like "That makes no damn sense. It works sometimes, but not all the time." |
| 15:54.52 | muep | at least linux-related communities seem to avoid csh-like shells quite a lot. I don't recall installing csh on my personal systems |
| 15:55.38 | Lydia_K | bash, ksh, zsh, never had issues with them like I have with csh |
| 15:55.51 | muep | also with my own scripts, I try to limit myself to stuff that works with dash so that I'll have a bit less rope |
| 15:56.13 | Lydia_K | Slowly I'll move my users all to bash. |
| 16:03.13 | gnarface | <PROTECTED> |
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| 16:10.27 | sysop | hi did you ssl cert expire? or is something else going on? |
| 16:11.48 | Lydia_K | Nothing else going on, it just expired |
| 16:15.27 | gnarface | ignore that blank line i sent, mouse focus issue |
| 16:25.40 | gnarface | ignore that blank line i sent, mouse focus issue |
| 16:25.47 | gnarface | (same) |
| 16:26.01 | Lydia_K | Having a mouse issue? |
| 16:26.18 | gnarface | this game keeps dropping the cursor on the other screen |
| 16:26.28 | gnarface | it doesn't seem to like multiple monitors being present, sorry |
| 16:26.57 | gnarface | up and enter is bound to up and "a" on the steam controller |
| 16:27.00 | gnarface | repeats the last line |
| 16:27.13 | Lydia_K | hahaha, what game? |
| 16:27.18 | gnarface | talos principle |
| 16:27.40 | Lydia_K | Oh cool, I've wanted to play that, it looks interesting. |
| 16:28.14 | gnarface | i haven't got far into it |
| 16:28.21 | gnarface | i'm still fiddling with the graphics options |
| 16:28.41 | gnarface | every time i apply settings and it restarts the engine, that's when the cursor drops |
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| 16:29.12 | gnarface | other than that it seems to work well |
| 16:29.17 | Lydia_K | Cool :) |
| 16:29.37 | Lydia_K | My life is consumed by Breath of the Wild right now anyway. |
| 16:29.46 | gnarface | hah |
| 16:29.55 | gnarface | that's a good game |
| 16:30.08 | Lydia_K | It's amazing <3 |
| 16:30.38 | gnarface | you figure out cooking yet? |
| 16:31.00 | Lydia_K | Of course! |
| 16:31.07 | Lydia_K | I've put like, a hundred hours into it :p |
| 16:31.16 | gnarface | there is a recipe on the wall in one of the stable yurts |
| 16:31.19 | gnarface | inside |
| 16:31.28 | Lydia_K | All of them have one! |
| 16:31.32 | gnarface | really? |
| 16:31.57 | Lydia_K | Yeah |
| 16:32.18 | gnarface | i suspected as much, i only found the one with egg, butter, cane sugar and rice |
| 16:32.47 | Lydia_K | There are so many recipies.. it's crazy |
| 16:32.57 | Lydia_K | I know I've only discovered a fraction of them. |
| 16:35.53 | golinux | #debianfork? |
| 16:36.10 | Lydia_K | oh sorry. |
| 16:36.27 | Lydia_K | Didn't realize what channel this was. |
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| 16:53.11 | aitor | hi again |
| 16:55.10 | aitor | i'm working in the dinamic menu, and looking at the code of openbox-menu |
| 16:55.59 | AntoFox | work also mate-menu?? |
| 16:56.02 | aitor | as the author himself said somewhere: we will not reinvent the wheel |
| 16:56.48 | aitor | AntoFox: i still didn't download any code from mate |
| 16:57.12 | aitor | but my work can be usefull |
| 16:57.37 | aitor | i'll try to contact with mimas <mimasgpc@free.fr> |
| 16:58.03 | aitor | He says in the THANKS file: |
| 16:58.04 | aitor | The author of openbox-menu would like to thank: |
| 16:58.11 | aitor | The author of openbox-menu would like to thank: |
| 16:58.21 | aitor | - the authors of Openbox, the great WM |
| 16:58.30 | aitor | - the authors of menucache (LXDE Project) |
| 16:58.38 | aitor | - the people that helped me to give more love to openbox-menu by providing patches, ideas or by finding bugs. |
| 16:59.37 | aitor | this afternoon i began porting it to Gtkmm/C++ |
| 17:02.01 | aitor | hee you are a link about howto create applets for a panel (this concrete link is for cinnamon, and i still don't know if it's applicable to other panels like tint2): |
| 17:02.14 | aitor | https://blog.desdelinux.net/mini-tutorial-creando-applets-para-cinnamon/ |
| 17:02.20 | aitor | it's in spanish |
| 17:03.14 | aitor | see you :) |
| 17:04.29 | AntoFox | aitor: uh interesting link !! |
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| 18:19.03 | tdm4 | there a command I can use that would replace all packages I had installed with debian jessie with devuan's? |
| 18:19.27 | tdm4 | probably would have to do dpkg, get the list with -debian in them, and do apt-get install --reinstall? |
| 18:27.17 | fsmithred | tdm4, are you trying to upgrade from debian to devuan? |
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| 21:10.23 | Guest43445 | hi did you ssl cert expire? or is something else going on? |
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| 21:11.23 | Xenguy | Guest43445: I think there have been some expirations, yes |
| 21:11.40 | Guest43445 | cool thanks |
| 21:11.48 | Xenguy | I think this has to do with the growing pains of shifting infrastructure... |
| 21:12.06 | Xenguy | Hopefully it will settle down in short order |
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| 21:22.35 | aitor | AntoFox: the tutorial seems to depend on javascript |
| 21:22.39 | aitor | mmm... |
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| 23:12.30 | aitor | hi |
| 23:13.17 | aitor | here you are a video about the gtkmm menu for openbox: |
| 23:13.23 | aitor | http://gnuinos.org/popup-menu.mpg |
| 23:17.59 | aitor | bye :) |
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