| 00:00.19 | nvz | its purpose is to find out based on lists of possible packages, which ones are common to them all to know which ones should be part of a "base" system |
| 00:00.26 | nvz | the versions are irrelevant to that end |
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| 00:03.02 | nvz | for if a feature is being worked on, or w/e.. check the changelogs on the tracker.. contact the developers, mainainer.. |
| 00:03.10 | CarlFK | well.. if you define what the tool needs to do based on what it does, then sure, it does what it needs to ;) |
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| 00:04.23 | nvz | the answer will be in the last place you look :P |
| 00:04.41 | nvz | hopefully.. |
| 00:04.47 | nvz | otherwise you might be crazy |
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| 00:54.59 | k-j-m | any tried qtile? in debian 10 |
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| 00:55.56 | hassoon | what's that dfor |
| 00:56.00 | hassoon | * for |
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| 00:59.22 | k-j-m | please any please help me :- has anyone tried qtile in debian 10? |
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| 01:02.38 | dvs | you still asking about that? |
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| 01:06.10 | somiaj | !poll |
| 01:06.11 | dpkg | "Does anyone have X or use Y?" is taking a poll, not asking a good question that IRC helpers can answer. Don't do it or sussudio's army of militant badgers will hurt you. Also see <ask> and <bad polls>. |
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| 01:10.44 | k-j-m | please any please help me :- has anyone tried qtile in debian 10? |
| 01:11.28 | k-j-m | i can t install qtile |
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| 01:30.56 | genr8_ | what have you tried ? |
| 01:32.02 | sney | ,i qtile |
| 01:32.09 | judd | No package named 'qtile' was found in buster/amd64. |
| 01:32.12 | sney | well. |
| 01:33.40 | sney | I guess if it was as simple as 'apt install qtile' they wouldn't be so lost. and I see they left, too. |
| 01:34.40 | genr8_ | hes a moron. the install guide is right here http://docs.qtile.org/en/latest/manual/install/index.html |
| 01:37.27 | sney | the debian instructions on that page refer to a 'qtile' package that does not exist. |
| 01:37.39 | sney | building python stuff from source is relatively straightforward once you know what you're looking at, but understandably daunting for a newbie |
| 01:37.48 | sney | regardless, their vague-ass questions did them in, clearly :P |
| 01:38.29 | sney | ,bug rm qtile |
| 01:38.43 | judd | Bug https://bugs.debian.org/952120 in ftp.debian.org (closed): «RM: qtile -- ROM; unusable; NPOASR»; severity: normal; opened: 2020-02-23; last modified: 2020-03-23. |
| 01:38.53 | sney | lol, unusable. fun. |
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| 01:42.38 | genr8_ | like his brain. communication, broken. critical thinking, broken. copy/paste, broken. |
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| 02:47.07 | foul_owl | How do I find the chipset for a bluetooth device if lspci is not showing it? (I'm guessing lspci isn't showing it because the driver or firmware isn't installed, but I can't determine that until I know the chipset) |
| 02:47.19 | nvz | lsusb |
| 02:47.22 | mesaboogie | some are lsusb |
| 02:47.26 | nvz | most bluetooth devices are usb |
| 02:47.42 | dvs | lsrs232 ;-P |
| 02:47.49 | foul_owl | Thank you! Even if it's internal to the device?\ |
| 02:47.56 | mesaboogie | yes |
| 02:48.05 | foul_owl | Thank you :) |
| 02:48.05 | nvz | foul_owl: even if its on the exact same chip as the pci wifi |
| 02:48.13 | foul_owl | Very good to know! |
| 02:48.20 | nvz | and firmware has nothing to do with stuff showing up on the bus |
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| 02:48.35 | nvz | if its not on the bus, it cant even load firmware for it |
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| 03:14.58 | foul_owl | Gotcha! So bus first, then firmware, then drivers? |
| 03:15.45 | somiaj | foul_owl: lshw lists all hardware, though gives a lot more info, but can be used if you aren't sure what bus to look at |
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| 03:18.53 | icypee | Hello |
| 03:19.04 | icypee | I have an issue with ungoogled chromium |
| 03:19.24 | icypee | It gives me error 256 whenever I go onto youtube or reddit |
| 03:19.33 | icypee | How do I fix this? |
| 03:19.40 | somiaj | icypee: where did you install the package from? |
| 03:20.02 | icypee | The ungoogled chromium site |
| 03:20.29 | somiaj | icypee: are you running debian? |
| 03:20.35 | icypee | Yes |
| 03:20.41 | somiaj | why not use debian's chromium package? |
| 03:21.07 | icypee | Because I like ungoogled chromium better |
| 03:21.17 | cipherize | chromium != chrome |
| 03:21.25 | somiaj | we can't really support third party stuff, and debian already provides chromium in main (means it is DSFG), which works well |
| 03:21.37 | somiaj | you might need to contact the creaters of said softawre then and let them know you can't get it to work in debian. |
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| 03:26.22 | icypee | also |
| 03:26.26 | icypee | i have another problem |
| 03:26.33 | icypee | when i use epiphany |
| 03:26.44 | icypee | and go onto youtube and skip ahead in the video |
| 03:26.55 | icypee | the browser freezes |
| 03:27.04 | icypee | do you guys know how to fix that? |
| 03:29.21 | somiaj | hmm, dno't see any bug reports that match that behavior. |
| 03:29.51 | icypee | should i run it in the terminal? |
| 03:30.17 | alex11 | (i'm not joking when i say this) google is known to optimize things for chrome and deride everything else |
| 03:30.23 | alex11 | whether that's the problem here, i don't know |
| 03:31.39 | icypee | ** (WebKitWebProcess:3): WARNING **: 23:31:02.332: WebKit wasn't able to find the GL video sink dependencies. Hardware-accelerated zero-copy video rendering can't be enabled without this plugin. |
| 03:31.44 | icypee | here's what it gives me |
| 03:33.17 | somiaj | https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=197558 -- seems there is both a bug in webkit and gstreamer, and using sites like youtube may not work with webkit as a result |
| 03:33.44 | somiaj | https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/gstreamer/gst-plugins-bad/-/merge_requests/427 |
| 03:33.58 | icypee | so nothing i can do about it? |
| 03:34.01 | somiaj | and stable is older than those fixes, so sounds like you should use another browser. |
| 03:34.30 | somiaj | well you could compile newer versions yourself, but I'm not seeing any easy solution in debian stable. Though I also didn't find any bug reports related to this, but I only looked at the browser, not webkit or gstreamer |
| 03:35.33 | icypee | i don't mind |
| 03:35.37 | icypee | compiling |
| 03:36.44 | icypee | wait |
| 03:36.48 | icypee | there's also a flatpak |
| 03:36.51 | somiaj | I'm not seeing any clear path, and depending on depednecies it may not be a simple thing, as you'll have to backport both webkit gtk and gstreamer. Due to other things that also depend on these, I dn't see it as an easy one or two package fix |
| 03:37.06 | somiaj | flatpak might work if you trust them, as it should contain newer versions of all the libs and leave your debian system alone |
| 03:37.36 | icypee | o so if i compiled the new version it probably wouldn't help? |
| 03:39.26 | icypee | i think i might just stay on chromium until ungoogled chromium gets fixed |
| 03:41.46 | icypee | actually i could use iridium |
| 03:42.08 | somiaj | I don't know how much work is going to be required as other things depend on the libaries gstreamer and webkit, so updating those could be a bit of work to ensure you do it correctly and remain compadable with other software |
| 03:42.48 | somiaj | what don't you like about chromium in debian? |
| 03:42.58 | icypee | it's google |
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| 03:43.17 | somiaj | what do you mean its google? What makes chromium ungoogled? chomrium in debian doens't contain any googles branding or non-free stuff in it |
| 03:44.55 | imMute | yeah, isn't "googled chromium" called "chrome" ? |
| 03:46.32 | somiaj | well google does a lot with the chromium codebase, so there is that, but I'm unsure how you would ungoogle that, since google has put so much into the open source base they build chrome on |
| 03:46.48 | somiaj | I mean chroium has always been the opensource base chrome was built on top of with google's branding and additional non-free stuff |
| 03:47.53 | somiaj | If it is specific features that you don't like, might want to check, debian does disalble some of them that are against debian's policy and DSFG, though google/chromium does sneak stuff in there ocasionally, but usually there is a bug report around that |
| 03:49.13 | somiaj | "ungoogled-chromium is Google Chromium, sans dependency on Google web services." Some of that stuff is disabled in debian, though often it takes bug reports and time, and I"m not sure on the exact details of what debian disables |
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| 03:53.35 | n4dir | i'd assume that google has put quite some effort in other browsers too. And if you go down deep enough in that rabit hole, you would find it. |
| 03:54.05 | somiaj | https://wiki.debian.org/PrivacyIssues -- hmm I guess debian nkows about the issues, I thought there was more effort to address some of them in chromium in debian. Though some seem to be documented there |
| 04:04.35 | nvz | browsers have just gotten ridiculous anymore |
| 04:05.02 | nvz | when you need a bunch of extensions just to browse the web without being harassed, you know things have gotten out of hand |
| 04:05.25 | n4dir | exactly. |
| 04:05.54 | nvz | the thing where it keeps you from leaving a page, the notification from pages, the ability to popup or open other windows, etc, etc.. are all just features most people don't even want |
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| 04:06.52 | alex11 | you also kind of have to outsource your browsing to someone else |
| 04:07.02 | alex11 | you can't just make your own browser with blackjack and hookers and get away with it |
| 04:07.22 | nvz | browsers have gotten to the point they cater to the web designers not to the users |
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| 04:13.19 | n4dir | i have come to the conclusion that it is best to avoid the web whenever possible |
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| 04:38.21 | nvz | yeah I came to the same conclusion and even started coding to that end, but haven't gotten anyone to help yet |
| 04:39.16 | nvz | I'm not really a coder.. more a dabbler.. I could use the help of somsone better able to lay out the framework for a saner design than what I call, my APOC *(Atrocious Proof Of Concept) code |
| 04:39.59 | nvz | my idea is to use a link handler.. that can take links from irc, web, email, anywhere, pre-process them, dispatch various other programs to deal with them.. |
| 04:41.09 | nvz | open yt links with the video in a program of your choice, pre-parse news articles and open them in a program of your choice.. which is all my APOC code does.. but the idea is to have a complete framework for handling all kinds of web content with the core features of a browser, history, bookmarks, etc.. without having to involve a browser |
| 04:42.10 | nvz | the idea is to hook into the mime handling of your system itself and handle links from anywhere and show you what you want to see the way you want to see it |
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| 05:19.34 | Lope | I've got a host i5 4670k and a guest in KVM, both running 4.19 kernel. When I suspend my host *while* the VM running (idling), the VM goes to shit afterwards. Not entirely, it still "works". But it runs slower, sometimes incredibly slow if I've suspended the host many times over a few days. And if I have suspended the host while the VM was running: when I shut down the VM, I get all kinds of kernel errors in the VM's terminal. Would I benefit from pausing the |
| 05:19.34 | Lope | VM before I suspend the host? Or is suspend just a problem regardless? |
| 05:20.34 | nvz | o.O |
| 05:21.48 | nvz | what would make you think that this should even work at all? |
| 05:22.07 | Lope | nvz, you mean suspend, or suspend with a VM running? |
| 05:22.36 | nvz | yeah.. what would make you think a normal use case of virtualization is to suspend the host while the guest is running? |
| 05:22.47 | Lope | I would expect that KVM has an awareness of what the host is doing, and would pause the VM automagically as well. |
| 05:22.56 | nvz | I see.. |
| 05:23.01 | Lope | I mean if the host stops, it can't realistically expect the guest to keep running. |
| 05:23.09 | nvz | I would expect that someone virualizing an OS wouldnt even BE suspending |
| 05:23.22 | Lope | I work in a VM. |
| 05:23.33 | nvz | I'm sorry to hear that |
| 05:23.42 | Lope | haha |
| 05:23.45 | nvz | heh |
| 05:23.58 | doubletwist | It makes sense to think that if the host is *suspended* - that would include keeping the memory state of anything running on the host, which I admit I would expect to include the VM itself |
| 05:24.00 | Lope | My VM is "my computer" |
| 05:24.46 | Lope | I've got a crapton of hard drives connected to my host, so I suspend so they get some rest over night etc. |
| 05:24.55 | nvz | sicks Microsoft's lawyers on lope for using the |
| 05:25.04 | nvz | "my computer" |
| 05:25.21 | Lope | LOL has microsoft trademarked "my computer" hahahahha? |
| 05:25.26 | nvz | idk, probably |
| 05:26.03 | Lope | Interestingly, my PC uses roughly the same power while idle as while suspended anyway. |
| 05:26.07 | nvz | seriously though I dont have a ton of experience with VMs, I only use them occasionally for volunteer support here.. but your use case sounds crazy to me |
| 05:26.31 | nvz | I would never even think to suspend a computer while its virtualizing another computer |
| 05:26.32 | Lope | Because the IME keeps running at full tilt regardless and that's what seems to consume 50W regardless of whether the PC is running idle, suspended, or off. |
| 05:26.50 | Lope | So the only purpose that suspend serves is my hard drives stop spinning. |
| 05:26.52 | nvz | and I'd imagine most the people coding this stuff wouldnt think you would either |
| 05:27.14 | nvz | you do realize you can stop a disk without suspending right? |
| 05:27.27 | Lope | Gotta love that intel backdoor spyware eating 50W 24/7. So important. |
| 05:27.37 | nvz | of course y'know.. you gotta stop using it too.. |
| 05:27.43 | nvz | or else its gonna start right back up |
| 05:27.52 | nvz | but you can certainly stop it anytime you want.. |
| 05:28.14 | nvz | doesn't make it a good idea.. because parking and revving up a disk is a wear |
| 05:28.23 | nvz | just as much as it running is |
| 05:28.37 | joze | this web thing requires php 7.4 |
| 05:28.40 | joze | damn |
| 05:28.44 | Lope | nvz, yeah, I suppose that's a better alternative. But I'm not sure if ZFS will play ball with suspending all the disks. |
| 05:28.55 | Lope | It might just decide to spin them up again when it farts. |
| 05:28.58 | joze | when will testing be stable? :) |
| 05:29.12 | nvz | joze: probably another year at least, but you can place your bets now |
| 05:29.15 | Lope | I'll ask the ZFS entorage. |
| 05:29.30 | joze | +is it like horse betting? |
| 05:29.54 | nvz | idk that anyone has done it lately but in the past we've made a game of betting when the next release would come |
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| 07:42.12 | ratrace | Anyone using SpamAssassin? Are your sa-update(s) failing with "/var/lib/spamassassin/3.004002/updates_spamassassin_org/1881814.tar.gz" missing ? |
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| 08:15.01 | hundfred | hi, i want to use the free space on a debian-live on flash drive, but the partition layout i found on the stick confuses me : https://ibb.co/XjPBgYT |
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| 08:20.58 | nvz | what confuses you? |
| 08:21.03 | genr8_ | thats not an accurate partition layout. MBR/GPT probably. |
| 08:21.47 | somiaj | !hybrid images |
| 08:21.48 | dpkg | Since the 6.0 "Squeeze" release, Debian installation images for x86 systems - e.g. <netinst>, <CD1>, DVD1 - are hybrid images. These can be written directly to CD or HD Media (e.g. USB thumbdrive) without further preparation. See http://www.debian.org/News/project/2010/14/#hybrid for details. See also <install debian>, <usb install>. |
| 08:22.12 | somiaj | arg, they are also efi/legacy enabled, so the partition table is not standard |
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| 08:24.00 | genr8_ | use another tool to create the partition. |
| 08:24.30 | hundfred | genr8_: i tried gparted, with no success |
| 08:24.42 | genr8_ | try gnome-disks |
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| 08:25.32 | genr8_ | or zero out the drive, write the live CD image again, then try again |
| 08:25.41 | genr8_ | you might have junk data laying around |
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| 08:27.08 | hundfred | fdisk seems to work :o |
| 08:27.23 | genr8_ | good |
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| 09:22.16 | Lope | I'm trying to generate known_hosts, but it doesn't seem to use a simple fingerprint as the fingerprint (the last item on each line). it seems to hash it or something, because the fingerprint does not even exist in plain-text in known_hosts. Any ideas? |
| 09:22.26 | Lope | And this has nothing to do with HashKnownHosts. |
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| 09:30.01 | tomreyn | how can you tell it has nothing to do with HashKnownHosts? |
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| 09:37.34 | AndreasLutro | Lope: the last item on each line is just the host key, only the hostname gets hashed, and there's no fingerprints |
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| 09:47.27 | Lope | AndreasLutro, thanks bud, I've been looking into it. I see that the last item is actually the entire public key, not a fingerprint of it. |
| 09:47.47 | Lope | AndreasLutro, I'm trying to figure out how to show the public key using ssh-keygen, any ideas please? :) |
| 09:48.01 | Lope | ssh-keygen -y -f /etc/ssh/ssh_host_foo doesn't work. |
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| 09:53.04 | AndreasLutro | just cat the .pub file |
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| 09:53.20 | AndreasLutro | do you also know about the program ssh-keyscan? |
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| 10:00.27 | Lope | AndreasLutro, I don't see the point of ssh-keyscan though, all it can possibly do is confirm someone has MITM'd your connection. Other than that, as far as I can tell, it's totally useless. |
| 10:00.39 | ratrace | !xy |
| 10:00.39 | dpkg | Slow down for a bit! Are you sure that you need to jump through that particular hoop to achieve your goal? We suspect you don't, so why don't you back up a bit and tell us about the overall objective... We know that people often falsely diagnose problems because they are too close to them -- it's easy to miss that there is a better way to proceed. See http://mywiki.wooledge.org/XyProblem |
| 10:00.55 | Lope | hi ratrace |
| 10:01.08 | ratrace | o/ |
| 10:01.29 | ratrace | so what are you _actually_ trying to achieve? |
| 10:01.32 | Lope | All good bud I solved my issue. Turns out I was making a mistake. I was thinking I was typing ssh-keygen but I was actually typing ssh-fingerprint LOL |
| 10:01.42 | Lope | bad autopilot brain. |
| 10:02.19 | ratrace | heh |
| 10:02.39 | Lope | ratrace, there are a few servers, that I have the fingerprints for, and wanted to populate known_hosts with them |
| 10:02.58 | Lope | but I only learned recently that known_hosts doesn't actually store fingerprints. it stores public keys. |
| 10:03.03 | ratrace | yeah |
| 10:03.29 | Lope | ratrace, have you tried running desktop applications inside LXC? |
| 10:03.39 | ratrace | long time ago |
| 10:03.45 | Lope | hmm. Ok |
| 10:03.49 | ratrace | why? |
| 10:04.09 | Lope | Well, I tried ClearLinux in a VM recently and was impressed by it's insanely fast boot time. |
| 10:04.23 | Lope | But then discovered it's repos are miniscule. |
| 10:04.36 | ratrace | CL is artificial construct, and experiment by Intel, tho |
| 10:05.05 | Lope | yeah, because there's not much software available for it, I'd need to actually run debian in LXC |
| 10:05.12 | Lope | for stuff that's not available in CL. |
| 10:05.21 | Lope | (which is 90+% of software haha) |
| 10:05.31 | Lope | Just experimenting. |
| 10:06.44 | ratrace | that would totally defeat any speed benefits of CL; as you're left with only the kernel from CL, your entire userspace around a containerized program would be from the container |
| 10:07.12 | Lope | ratrace, I realize that. Basically I'd get the speed benefits of the kernel and whatever software CL offers, which isn't much. |
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| 10:07.29 | ratrace | and also, consider using systemd-nspawn. much easier to work with than lxcrap |
| 10:07.52 | Lope | can you run desktop applications with systemd-nspawn? |
| 10:07.56 | ratrace | sue |
| 10:07.57 | ratrace | *sure |
| 10:08.17 | ratrace | you just have to --bind /tmp/.X11-unix |
| 10:08.30 | ratrace | --bind-ro even suffices |
| 10:08.45 | Lope | I've never run desktop applications in LXC so I'd need to learn how to bind whatever. |
| 10:09.03 | Lope | I see some people even play fully 3d accelerated games in LXC without issue. |
| 10:09.12 | Lope | so they pass their GPU through. |
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| 10:09.21 | Lope | They run shit like skype in LXC, passing thru the webcam etc. |
| 10:09.28 | ratrace | you need to bind the xorg socket either from the host or from another container running xorg, you need to bind /dev items for dri/nvidi/gpu thingies, audio devices, and input |
| 10:10.07 | Lope | when you say input, you mean audio input? |
| 10:10.17 | Lope | and webcam |
| 10:10.18 | ratrace | I mean /dev/input/ |
| 10:10.24 | Lope | (not keyboard and mouse surely) |
| 10:10.25 | Lope | ? |
| 10:10.35 | ratrace | well yes, your xorg needs the devices |
| 10:10.35 | Lope | because that would negate the security benefits |
| 10:10.48 | ratrace | Lope: duh, Xorg is one big negation of security benefits. |
| 10:11.03 | Lope | well if you give the container access to your input devices, then they can just keylog everything. |
| 10:11.04 | ratrace | but _something_ > nothing, so it's not totally futile |
| 10:11.35 | ratrace | Lope: your xorg container only needs it. but desktop-app containers DO need access to gpu device for acceleration |
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| 10:12.03 | ratrace | Lope: but YES, even if you isolate and containerize like that, xorg being xorg, it's possible to exploit it and break through containment through xorg APIs |
| 10:12.07 | Lope | so if you want to run semi-malware in a container securely, I thought you could run *just* an application without running an entire DE and xorg etc inside the container? |
| 10:12.35 | Lope | I don't actually understand how it works. The only thing I've done similar to this is running applications over SSH. |
| 10:12.40 | ratrace | better run that in a VM, though note that the hypervisor is not 100% impervious to exploits |
| 10:13.02 | Lope | That would be secure, but then to give it webcam access, would be another story. |
| 10:13.18 | ratrace | Lope: containers are just namespaces. think chroots on steroids and conceptual chroots for network, UID space, PID space, ... |
| 10:13.30 | Lope | yeah |
| 10:13.33 | ratrace | Lope: you can perhaps pci-passthrough the cam to the VM |
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| 10:14.09 | Lope | well, the guy doing the demo was mainly selling the programs lack of access to your filesystem as the benefit. |
| 10:14.33 | Lope | And that would work. But if it has access to /dev/input then you're probably screwed. |
| 10:15.01 | Lope | ratrace, well, webcams are generally USB |
| 10:15.31 | Lope | So USB passthrough or forwarding can be done, across whatever. |
| 10:15.50 | ratrace | yes. it just requires hardware support (motherboard and IOMMU zoned sanely) |
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| 10:16.17 | ratrace | Lope: except passthrough through the hypervisor boundary is not the same thing as "passthrough" to container namespace |
| 10:16.18 | Lope | well, USB forwarding or whatever it may be called doesn't even require IOMMU |
| 10:16.30 | Lope | people even forward USB over ethernet from a RbPi or whatever. |
| 10:16.32 | ratrace | the later is not really a "passthrough" in the same sense, it's just re-binding |
| 10:17.05 | ratrace | Lope: if you want proper passthrough, not emulation, you need pci level passthrough, and that needs iommu |
| 10:17.29 | Lope | So are you saying that running an application in a container absolutely requires giving the container /dev/ stuff? |
| 10:17.31 | ratrace | otherwise your host kernel must manage the hardware and that's one extra vector for malware VM to exploit |
| 10:17.46 | ratrace | Lope: depends what the programs running in the container NEED |
| 10:17.52 | Lope | isn't there a way to run applications from LXC unprivleged in your DE? |
| 10:18.07 | ratrace | xorg apps mostly don't need /dev/input, but xorg itself does, and a containerized app can exploit xorg to sniff your input |
| 10:18.23 | ratrace | xorg BREAKS any attempt to isolate programs as it binds them all together into a single, vulnerable API |
| 10:18.35 | Lope | is it possible to run a container's desktop app without running xorg from the container? |
| 10:18.48 | ratrace | well it has to run _somewhere_ |
| 10:19.00 | ratrace | or use a wayland compositor instead of xorg |
| 10:19.05 | Lope | is that true even if you run a application remotely over SSH? |
| 10:19.38 | ratrace | I'm nor sure what you're asking me. A _xorg_ app requires xorg running _somewhere_ and accessed through a unix or tcp socket |
| 10:19.39 | Lope | so it runs on the remote server, but it's window is forwarded to your local DE via SSH forwarding? |
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| 10:20.57 | oxek | try xephyr |
| 10:21.21 | Lope | last time I went down this path I concluded it's best to have a separate PC for skype and zoom etc. |
| 10:21.29 | Lope | or VM, as you mentioned. |
| 10:21.49 | Lope | One could always VNC into that separate PC |
| 10:21.57 | Lope | if you really want to haha. |
| 10:22.03 | oxek | or have skype & zoom running in some sandbox, using e.g. firejail or flatpak |
| 10:22.53 | Lope | oxek, have you tried these things? |
| 10:23.09 | oxek | yes |
| 10:23.13 | Lope | I wasn't aware that flatpak provides any security. |
| 10:23.29 | oxek | flatpak apps have a sandbox |
| 10:23.35 | oxek | you define what they can access |
| 10:23.40 | Lope | oxek, so you would run skype on your PC? |
| 10:23.44 | oxek | yes |
| 10:23.52 | Lope | now that's the wildest thing I've heard all day. |
| 10:23.55 | ratrace | flatpak is a container, which means it's a namespace, and not a security boundary |
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| 10:24.17 | ratrace | that's why flatpaks on RHEL clones need and use selinux to enforce the security boundary |
| 10:24.20 | oxek | not a security boundary, true, and nobody has ever been able to break out of it yet |
| 10:24.24 | Lope | ratrace, yeah I assumed flatpak is a very simple chroot, nothing more. |
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| 10:24.44 | ratrace | Lope: well no, it's more than that, it's a container |
| 10:24.50 | Lope | (in terms of security, I mean) |
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| 10:25.04 | Lope | okay, cool. |
| 10:25.24 | ratrace | infact, it requries USERNS and that's traditionally a very vulnerable part of the kernel |
| 10:25.27 | oxek | Lope: I run skype, zoom and all the other proprietary apps in either firejail or flatpak (bubblewrap) sandbox, with a separate x11 server using xephyr so that they cannot perform keylogging |
| 10:26.06 | Lope | oxek, is xephyr necessary even if you're using firejail already? |
| 10:26.32 | oxek | Lope: any x11 app can see the contents and inject arbitrary actions to any other app running on the same x server |
| 10:26.51 | Lope | oxek, that's insane! |
| 10:26.55 | oxek | i.e. skype can pretend to be you and type stuff into xterm |
| 10:27.03 | Lope | I thought only root can do that!? |
| 10:27.08 | oxek | or see your sudo password when you type it |
| 10:27.17 | Lope | no way? |
| 10:27.17 | oxek | that's the design of xserver |
| 10:27.27 | Lope | i can't believe that... |
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| 10:29.09 | oxek | on linux, all the apps you run are inherently trusted, that's how it was designed. |
| 10:29.25 | oxek | hence, don't run untrusted apps |
| 10:29.27 | Lope | oxek, do you have any reading materials for using xephyr for this purpose? I see the wikipedia page doesn't mention your use case of it. |
| 10:29.59 | oxek | 1) start xephyr 2) start an app in xephyr? |
| 10:30.11 | ratrace | xephyr is just false sense of security. the kernel is most vulnerable and all your apps are sharing it. if you _know_ you're running malware... just don't share the kernel with it |
| 10:30.11 | oxek | if you use firejail, then it has --x11=xephyr option |
| 10:30.36 | oxek | ratrace: kernel exploits are harder than x11 exploits |
| 10:30.52 | ratrace | oxek: I'm not so sure in 2020 |
| 10:31.02 | ratrace | kernel security has really deteriorated |
| 10:31.04 | oxek | true, we don't have any certainties left in 2020 |
| 10:31.39 | oxek | in any case, x11 is full of holes, wayland aims to fix that but wayland is still not useable for many things |
| 10:31.59 | Lope | ratrace, oxek has a point about x11 exploits though. Which makes me think you should run lots of stuff in xephyr |
| 10:32.23 | oxek | Lope: or just don't run untrusted apps? |
| 10:32.32 | Lope | oxek, "oxek> if you use firejail, then it has --x11=xephyr option" do you mean you must have xephyr installed to be able to use firejail with it's default settings? |
| 10:32.39 | ratrace | Lope: but it's less protection than a full VM can give you |
| 10:32.45 | ratrace | so why settle with mediocre? |
| 10:33.07 | oxek | Lope: firejail does not utilize xephyr by default in any of its profiles |
| 10:33.07 | Lope | oxek, oh, my bad, I misunderstood. I get what you're saying now. |
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| 10:33.44 | Lope | ratrace, I agree with you 100%. Surely skype inside xephyr filefail inside a VM is better than running the latter on the host. |
| 10:34.25 | oxek | x11 security extension < xvfb < xephyr with firejail or flatpak < linux containers or docker < vm < another physical machine < another physical machine disconnected from anything |
| 10:34.26 | Lope | ratrace, I was thinking in terms of running non-malware in firejail by default. |
| 10:34.42 | Lope | Because for example, let's say you open a bad PDF, now it malware's your whole X11 session. |
| 10:34.44 | oxek | throw in some namespaces and cgroup implementations somewhere in there |
| 10:35.10 | oxek | Lope: don't open bad PDFs then? |
| 10:35.19 | ratrace | well how do you know they're bad |
| 10:35.32 | Lope | ratrace, so to be clear, I'm thinking a VM (or better a separate PC) for malware like skype and zoom etc. |
| 10:35.34 | ratrace | if you knew something was malware, then security would be moot: just don't run it. lol |
| 10:35.37 | oxek | if they come by email, they are bad. If they are on some random webpage, then they are bad. |
| 10:35.47 | Lope | And then firejail and xephyr for all normal open source stuff. |
| 10:35.58 | ratrace | Lope: don't forget the browser. that's the most likely intrusion vector |
| 10:36.07 | oxek | Lope: or just use qubes-os, it has debian as one of the machines |
| 10:36.32 | Lope | ratrace, yeah, I agree. it seems that browsing in a VM would be best. Before I didn't want to hassle with it, but I've been working with VM's more lately and don't think it would be too bad. |
| 10:36.36 | ratrace | I woulndn't trust qubes. not with the amount of xen vulns reported monthly |
| 10:36.50 | Lope | Also if you browse with a VM it would make fingerprinting harder. |
| 10:37.13 | oxek | qubes is still better than running a browser without qubes |
| 10:37.18 | Lope | especially if you use a windows VM or whatever. |
| 10:37.27 | ratrace | Lope: not necessarily. if your VM has persistence, then it's the same thing |
| 10:37.45 | oxek | I don't believe running qubes exposes you to more problems than not running it |
| 10:38.09 | ratrace | oxek: probably not, but it definitely _does_ expose you to more than they claim |
| 10:38.17 | Lope | ratrace, well, if I used a VM for browsing I'd make it revert snapshot on shutdown. |
| 10:38.31 | oxek | if you're at the point where you can exploit xen, then you'd already have some way of exploiting the stuff below xen - hence you could exploit a normal debian installation |
| 10:38.36 | ratrace | ie. "You had one job". or.... tool designed for security is by its nature insecure, etc... |
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| 10:39.13 | Lope | ratrace, but ofcourse one would need a way to update the browser and then update the snapshot. |
| 10:39.25 | oxek | Lope: take some time off, sit down, think, and write down your threat model. Then prepare accordingly. |
| 10:40.27 | Lope | The threat model is rather large if you're thorough. |
| 10:40.32 | ratrace | Lope: it all comes down to the balance of probabilities. like oxek said, how likely it is to subvert xen to begin with, etc... |
| 10:41.05 | ratrace | and with that balance, running untrusted stuff in VMs suffices. you can rollback images on shutdown, and have separate update runs without firing up the untrusted apps, to update the images, etc... |
| 10:41.34 | Lope | ratrace, yeah that's easy enough to do. |
| 10:42.32 | oxek | it's sad to say, but if security is really important to you, then perhaps debian is not the distro for you. Debian does not have the latest updates. |
| 10:43.01 | oxek | yes, debian tries to backport security fixes, but it does not get new security features |
| 10:43.02 | Lope | debian does run a little old I agree. |
| 10:43.20 | oxek | also, bugfixes are not backported, and a lot of bugfixes are security fixes too, they just aren't labelled as such |
| 10:43.29 | ratrace | unfortunately |
| 10:43.45 | Lope | it's funny this whole conversation started with me asking about running debian in LXC to be able to use a different distro that has less software available. |
| 10:44.15 | ratrace | the kernel devs are even recommending everyone run the latest mainline, because they can't be bothered with labelling every bugfix as security fix, where needed |
| 10:44.25 | oxek | exactly |
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| 10:44.51 | Lope | It seems like if you want stuff to be secure you need stuff to be stateless with everything isolated etc. |
| 10:45.16 | ratrace | no, you just need good defense in depth. there's no single holy grail in security. |
| 10:45.24 | oxek | to be fair, if it was up to me, I'd rename "debian stable" to something else. Because a lot of people think that the word "stable" refers to "does not crash, gets bugfixes" but that's simply not true |
| 10:45.25 | Lope | what kernel do you guys recommend to run with Buster? |
| 10:45.34 | Lope | I'm still on good old 4.19 |
| 10:45.54 | ratrace | I'm using that too |
| 10:46.15 | oxek | Lope: default kernel unless you have hardware that requires newer kernel |
| 10:46.34 | ratrace | having been bitten by sns, I refuse running non-lts kernels that aren't at least .10 old, or even more in same cases |
| 10:46.55 | Lope | ratrace, I've not been experimenting with dropbear for a while, but did you see that it got ed25519 support? |
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| 10:47.08 | oxek | I have a machine that can't even boot with the newer kernel |
| 10:47.32 | Lope | ratrace, sns? |
| 10:47.39 | ratrace | !sns |
| 10:47.39 | dpkg | Shiny New Shit Syndrome is a serious disorder, which usually breaks out into an epidemic every time something new is released. If you have SNS, ask me about <backports> and <ssb>; these are better options than upgrading to <testing> because it is a <moving target>. |
| 10:48.47 | ratrace | Lope: I haven't, I'm not following dropbear dev closely... or at all, I just use what's int he distro |
| 10:48.47 | Lope | ratrace, ^^ |
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| 10:48.56 | Lope | ratrace, k |
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| 10:49.21 | oxek | don't use dropbear |
| 10:49.39 | Lope | don't worry, we handle the bears carefully |
| 10:49.58 | ratrace | oxek: I use it to unlock LUKS for rootfs from initramfs on the servers |
| 10:50.08 | oxek | ah, that usecase |
| 10:50.11 | Lope | telnet is much better. |
| 10:51.26 | Lope | ratrace, pretty much the only alternative to dropbear would be to kexec a different rootfs :) |
| 10:51.40 | Lope | But I don't know if that would work |
| 10:51.45 | Lope | I suppose it could. |
| 10:52.08 | ratrace | Lope: or no ssh at all, but a custom initramfs that fetches the key from somehwere |
| 10:53.31 | Lope | have you guys ever experienced systemd boot or whatever it's called? |
| 10:53.37 | Lope | (instead of using grub) |
| 10:53.40 | oxek | yes |
| 10:54.08 | Lope | clearlinux doesn't work with grub. It uses uefi only. So apprently the alternative is to somehow setup systemd-boot |
| 10:54.16 | Lope | does the systemd-boot not have an initramfs? |
| 10:54.23 | oxek | clearlinux is not debian |
| 10:54.31 | Lope | (apologies if that's a dumb question) |
| 10:54.39 | Lope | I know, just menioning it for comparison. |
| 10:54.59 | oxek | for comparison, debian can boot using grub on uefi |
| 10:55.02 | Lope | clearlinux boots insanely fast, is there a way to get debian to boot faster? |
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| 10:55.47 | oxek | systemd-analyze; systemd-analyze blame |
| 10:56.03 | akik | i ran into a weird problem with booting debian buster from a usb stick with grub using hd-media vmlinuz and initrd.gz. if the debian buster iso debian-10.5.0-amd64-netinst.iso is in the same directory on the usb stick than ubuntu-20.04-desktop-amd64.iso, the ubuntu iso gets mounted as /cdrom in the debian buster installer and then the installer fails. if i then remove the ubuntu iso from that directory and |
| 10:56.09 | akik | boot again, the debian buster installer works fine |
| 10:56.19 | Lope | ratrace, that's true, although if you break your bootup process then you're SOL. |
| 10:56.49 | efloid | just upgraded to f2fs for main filesystem. when booting i see a lot of repeating messages "Begin: Running /scripts/local-block ... done." before the system eventually boots. any idea what this is? |
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| 10:57.42 | ratrace | Lope: ? |
| 10:57.50 | Lope | ratrace, do I remember correctly that you also use gentoo? or was that someone else? |
| 10:57.57 | ratrace | I use gentoo too yes |
| 10:58.33 | Lope | ratrace, is it possible to compile your debian kernel optimizing it for newer CPU's similar to what clearlinux does? |
| 10:59.14 | Lope | (I've compiled kernels before, to fix driver issues... but didn't do any performance changes) |
| 11:00.11 | Lope | <ratrace> Lope: or no ssh at all, but a custom initramfs that fetches the key from somehwere <Lope> ratrace, that's true, although if you break your bootup process then you're SOL. |
| 11:00.14 | ratrace | Lope: sure but you're asking the wrong question |
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| 11:01.02 | ratrace | Lope: "debian kernel" is just vanilla kernel + some debian specific patches. CL kernel is just vanilla kernel with some CL specific patches AND compiler shenanigans. |
| 11:01.40 | Lope | okay, so can we do the compiler shenanigans on the "vanilla kernel + some debian specific patches" |
| 11:01.48 | ratrace | so of course it's possible but then you're turning debian into CL ... because debian is just a collection of software developed elsewhere, integrated into a whole with some custom modifications |
| 11:02.05 | Lope | Truth be told. Last time I compiled an x86_64 kernel it was for ubuntu. And they've got their own git repo if you want to compile the "ubuntu kernel" |
| 11:02.13 | Lope | I assumed debian would have something similar. |
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| 11:02.55 | Lope | ratrace, it's not a big deal to recompile the kernel though? |
| 11:03.13 | ratrace | it's not |
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| 11:03.59 | Lope | so is it trivial to reproduce CL's compiler shenanigans on the "debian kernel"? |
| 11:04.59 | Lope | Another crazy question!!! *hold on to your seat* Since you can run debian in a CL chroot. Could you just boot a CL kernel with a debian rootfs? |
| 11:05.17 | ratrace | I don't know how trivial it would be. CL does a lot of modifications to software with gcc, llvm and patches |
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| 11:05.54 | ratrace | Lope: maybe. but something tells me you'd be disappointed with performance gains |
| 11:06.16 | Lope | ratrace, well I've used CL in a VM and it feels snappy as hell. |
| 11:06.36 | Lope | but of course that's EVERYTHING compiled with the shanigans, as you mentioned. |
| 11:07.06 | ratrace | and that's the most important bit here.... kernel itself is likely not a significant contributor to the speedups |
| 11:07.19 | Lope | ok. thanks. |
| 11:12.33 | ratrace | oxek: "debian tries to backport security fixes, but it does not get new security features" -- you mean for the kernel or userland too? anything specific as example? |
| 11:13.13 | ratrace | I mean, it follows from the nature of "Stable" (API/ABI stable) that new features aren't introduced, with some exceptions, but I was wondering if you had something specific in mind here |
| 11:13.52 | Lope | ratrace, oxek: what were you guys referring to when you said your confidence in the security of the linux kernel is diminished in 2020? |
| 11:14.15 | oxek | ratrace: kernel and userland. |
| 11:14.43 | oxek | specific for userland, for example new security features are not backported to esr versions of firefox |
| 11:14.54 | ratrace | Lope: linux (kernel) security is terrible. pretty much the opinion of any researcher who bothered looking |
| 11:15.14 | oxek | software security is terrible |
| 11:15.34 | ratrace | Lope: a lot of bugs, unlabelled bugs, not backported, and terra-ton of new code coming in, with new bugs, each release |
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| 11:15.45 | Lope | well, terrible should be a relative adjective in that sentence, surely? |
| 11:16.05 | Lope | I mean windows has been exploited many more times than Linux? |
| 11:16.16 | ratrace | and kernel itself has little security-specific features because Linus thinks infosec people are "masturbating monkeys". so in that part, grsec/pax is telling the truth. |
| 11:16.21 | Lope | (times meaning number of distinct exploits) |
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| 11:16.37 | oxek | Lope: linux & windows are pretty much on par in terms of kernel security |
| 11:16.48 | ratrace | Lope: there's no way to know that as windows is not open for audit and a public CVE list |
| 11:16.50 | oxek | most security issues in windows are not due to the windows kernel |
| 11:17.16 | oxek | ratrace: we do know however which files get patched in windows security updates, and see that those patches rarely update kernel files |
| 11:17.46 | ratrace | oxek: you also don't see the ones they sit on using obscurity as a shield |
| 11:17.53 | oxek | it's always some windows service whenever it is a big security bug in windows, it's not the kernel |
| 11:18.03 | Lope | interesting. well one aspect of linux kernel's philosophy which seems harmful to security is the idea that it must be infinitely backwards compatible. |
| 11:18.04 | ratrace | but anyway, window security definitely improved with w10. |
| 11:18.08 | oiaohm | oxek: it is not as straight forwards as that. |
| 11:18.19 | Lope | So software compiled to work on a 2.6 kernel must work on a 5.x kernel. |
| 11:18.29 | oxek | Lope: I think you mean windows. Windows is infinitely backwards compatible. |
| 11:18.35 | Ede|Popede | oxek: or they'll just don't tell you when it is the kernel |
| 11:18.39 | Lope | But that seems retarded since 99.9% of linux software is open source and in repositories etc. |
| 11:18.56 | ratrace | oxek: they mean "never break userspace" mantra of kernel devs |
| 11:19.13 | oiaohm | oxek: there are a lot of thing that fixed kernel level in Linux that windows fixed in windows API alterations this leads to a race of user space patches over and over again. |
| 11:19.17 | oxek | never break userspace != forever backwards compatible |
| 11:19.21 | Lope | surely if they broke backwards compatibility and made it optional to choose what drivers you want to compile, you could have a much smaller more secure kernel? |
| 11:19.27 | ratrace | they're about to break it in 5.10 tho :) Avid fan of console scrollback? Prepare to get shocked! |
| 11:19.43 | oxek | wait what's going on with console scrollback? |
| 11:19.45 | Lope | also a smaller kernel would fit better into CPU cache so it would be faster as well. |
| 11:19.53 | ratrace | oxek: technically true, but since there's no formal specification of the userland, it kinda comes out to that perpetual compatibility |
| 11:19.53 | oiaohm | ratrace: console scrollback had a security flaw and no maintiner. |
| 11:20.17 | ratrace | and now it's going away. |
| 11:20.21 | oiaohm | ratrace: if you want to be the maintainer Linus has put it up for offer. |
| 11:20.37 | ratrace | no, I don't care about it. just giving a userspace breaking example. |
| 11:21.14 | oiaohm | ratrace: that not absolutely userspace breaking thinking screen/xterm.... can emulate it with userspace stuff. |
| 11:21.22 | oxek | I'm gonna miss console scrollback |
| 11:21.35 | oiaohm | Most of the time I am not going to miss it. |
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| 11:21.48 | Lope | when you say console scrollback, what is that exactly? |
| 11:21.55 | akik | oiaohm: what was that flaw? |
| 11:21.58 | ratrace | Lope: shift+pageUp in the console, for example |
| 11:22.10 | Lope | how could that possibly go away? |
| 11:22.21 | oiaohm | framebuffer in Linux kernel implementation of console scroll back. |
| 11:22.23 | ratrace | Lope: "< oiaohm> ratrace: console scrollback had a security flaw and no maintiner." |
| 11:22.23 | Lope | are we talking about a tty console? |
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| 11:22.28 | ratrace | <wa |
| 11:22.31 | ratrace | *yes |
| 11:22.49 | Lope | so gnome-terminal or whatever will still have scrollback? |
| 11:22.53 | ratrace | of course |
| 11:22.54 | oxek | Lope: yes |
| 11:22.55 | Lope | ah well, I can live with that. |
| 11:23.12 | ratrace | UNTIL ...... gnome decides to drop that feature, as they drop features left and right with each new release /s |
| 11:23.16 | oiaohm | But items like screen from gnu/tmux/all x11 termianls do it in user space anyhow. |
| 11:23.25 | oiaohm | So its not a big issue. |
| 11:23.31 | oiaohm | for most users |
| 11:23.34 | oxek | and all libvte-based terminal emulators will follow, because gnome controls libvte |
| 11:23.37 | Lope | ratrace, I was amazed that debian buster dropped pinta. |
| 11:23.54 | ratrace | Lope: https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/commit/?id=50145474f6ef4a9c19205b173da6264a644c7489 btw |
| 11:23.55 | Lope | I mean what other simple mspaint style program is there in linux? |
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| 11:24.14 | diogenes_ | ratrace, dropping features is what they call innovation. |
| 11:24.26 | Lope | and don't say GIMP, that's complicated (I do use it, but it's a pain in the nuts) |
| 11:24.55 | oxek | ratrace: and will debian backport this 'fix'? |
| 11:24.57 | ratrace | GI..... oh, well :) |
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| 11:25.12 | akik | i wonder what those "small special cases" were. the virtual console scroll has just always worked |
| 11:25.28 | ratrace | oxek: real question is will GKH backport it! he did backport political patches to fuckup ZFS, so.... |
| 11:26.04 | oiaohm | Lope: https://flathub.org/apps/details/com.github.PintaProject.Pinta I don't see it as a major problem. |
| 11:26.15 | ratrace | and if GKH backports it, then the next question is will Debian patch it back IN! |
| 11:26.51 | Lope | oiaohm, well one can jump through hoops to install anything, but that's not the point. |
| 11:26.58 | oxek | to be fair, I don't expect linus and other people around him to stay in charge of the kernel for long. Probably gone by the end of 2020, and someone new will step up. Perhaps even the license will change to gpl3, or gpl4 will be invented. |
| 11:27.50 | Lope | I wonder if linus will be reincarnated? |
| 11:27.57 | ratrace | Lope: I don't know flatpak on debian, but with snaps it's literally two commands, so not much hoops |
| 11:28.18 | oxek | flatpak is two commands as well |
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| 11:28.36 | ratrace | oxek: LOLWUT |
| 11:28.37 | Lope | I heard snaps = ubuntu = devil = closed source armageddon, or something. |
| 11:28.42 | oiaohm | pinta is normally after a newer runtime to work well. |
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| 11:29.18 | oiaohm | Somethings make more sense being on a faster updating runtime. |
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| 11:30.12 | oxek | ratrace: 'sudo apt install flatpak' 'flatpak flatpak remote-add --if-not-exists flathub https://flathub.org/repo/flathub.flatpakrepo' 'flatpak install eu.ototu.Quteqoin' |
| 11:30.30 | ratrace | oxek: no I mean the commend about linus and friends leaving the kernel by the end of 2020 |
| 11:30.57 | oxek | ratrace: he and people around him make others feel uncomfortable, and that's not allowed anymore in 2020 |
| 11:31.22 | oxek | they are one false sexual misconduct allegation away from being gone |
| 11:31.27 | ratrace | he ain't going anywhere |
| 11:32.08 | oxek | I'd prefer him to stay too, but it's not up to me |
| 11:33.46 | ratrace | if, hypothetically, that happened, it'd just be another fork. business as usual. |
| 11:34.08 | aaro | oxek: in what source do you base for that info? |
| 11:34.40 | ratrace | it's literally impossible to remove linux from the kernel. it's _maybe_ possible to remove him from a specific _repository_ but so what. foss power. just use the repo which he will put up elsewhere. duh. |
| 11:34.47 | ratrace | to remove *Linus from the kernel |
| 11:35.44 | ratrace | if that happened.... the computing history will see schism like never before. and all the good stuff will go opposite the SJW |
| 11:36.15 | oxek | ratrace: what about the head of FSF being removed? that happened. |
| 11:36.51 | ratrace | the head of FSF did not directly control the most used single piece of software in the world |
| 11:37.34 | Ede|Popede | wouldn't this be IME these days? |
| 11:37.36 | ratrace | and removal of RMS from FSF did not remove RMS from spearheading development of software he was on even before. |
| 11:37.43 | oxek | aaro: which info are you looking for? That linus makes SJWs uncomfortable? |
| 11:37.55 | oiaohm | oxek: RMS case is is way different to Linus. Linus is only a head of a development project. FSF board you are technically head of a company. |
| 11:38.41 | aaro | oxek: you said linus is being removed from kernel development, that info |
| 11:38.53 | oiaohm | Linus did have to improve his language particularly if he wished to keep on visiting Australia and other places with strict rules against verbal/written abuse. |
| 11:38.54 | ratrace | ALSo..... FSF is a joke. so no biggie. |
| 11:39.46 | oxek | oiaohm: isn't the linux foundation related to linus? |
| 11:40.18 | oxek | aaro: I did not say that. I said I would not be surprised if he was removed by the end of the year. |
| 11:40.41 | ratrace | removed from _what_ exactly? |
| 11:40.45 | ratrace | the mailing list? |
| 11:40.49 | oiaohm | oxek: Linux foundation pays Linus wages but Linus himself is not on the board. Linus is techiclaly not in any human resources position |
| 11:41.05 | oiaohm | That right Linus technically does not manage staff. |
| 11:41.33 | oiaohm | Once you start managing staff on paper you have a lot more legal requirements about fair treatment and other things. |
| 11:41.42 | oxek | ratrace: removed = everyone cuts all ties with him, linux kernel development becoming controlled by someone else, him no longer reviewing patches or having anything to do with linux anymore |
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| 11:42.01 | ratrace | oxek: you're talking about one specific repository though |
| 11:42.09 | oiaohm | Yes being on a board of a company techically makes you part of human resources/staff management. |
| 11:42.41 | oiaohm | Yes RMS was kick off FSF board with his personal history it was not sound for him to be there. |
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| 11:43.54 | oxek | all I'm saying is that linus is not in some unshakeable position |
| 11:44.10 | oxek | the kernel will live on without him just fine, unfortunately |
| 11:44.24 | oiaohm | Linus position is not as legally exposed. |
| 11:44.37 | oiaohm | So a lot harder to move him from where he is. |
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| 11:44.56 | oxek | oiaohm: you really think a false sexual misconduct allegation would not do anything to him? |
| 11:45.14 | oxek | in 2020? |
| 11:45.55 | aaro | is not into gossip |
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| 11:46.39 | oiaohm | oxek: Person in a project management role proven to have done rape does not give the boss legal right to remove him from position. It would in fact be illegal to remove Linus from his current position with a false or real sexual misconduct allegation. |
| 11:47.07 | oiaohm | Linus legal position is very different since he is techically not in any human resources role. |
| 11:47.56 | abrotman | wonders what he's wandered into ... |
| 11:47.58 | oiaohm | Yes the were able to push RMS out of FSF board but they could not push RMS off of any GNU project he directly managers either. |
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| 11:48.48 | oiaohm | oxek: basically there are limits on what can and cannot be done. You get real management power over humans you come way more simple to fire. |
| 11:49.44 | oiaohm | Fun way to get rid of someone who is badly behaved in a company promote them to a roll with real management power then kick them when they carry on with their past miss behavour. |
| 11:49.48 | *** part/#debian drdo (~drdo@overlord0.drdo.eu) |
| 11:50.29 | oxek | "we fully accept the presumption of innocence, and to allow cooler heads to prevail we have taken control of all domains and repositories, appointed a new team to review patches, and all has been signed off by our corporate sponsors and large contributors while the investigation is ongoing" |
| 11:51.17 | oxek | nobody wants there to be two separate linux kernels, hence everyone would get on board this new team |
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| 11:52.19 | oxek | debian is in a different position because there's nobody big at the top |
| 11:53.45 | gry | Good. |
| 11:54.01 | ratrace | oxek: which team would that be? some new names never before heard of in the community? |
| 11:54.07 | n4dir | "who the bloody hell cares about debian" An evergreen in my book |
| 11:54.16 | gry | What did I miss, though? |
| 11:54.58 | gry | Rms stuff belongs to ##RMS ... |
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| 11:57.12 | oxek | ratrace: I don't know. |
| 11:57.56 | oxek | oracle might want to have a go at it :D |
| 11:58.09 | ratrace | I seriously doubt that |
| 11:58.28 | ratrace | they'll just continue to leech from redhat |
| 11:58.30 | oxek | I was making a bad pun. "oracle" knowing the future. |
| 11:58.36 | ratrace | ah :) |
| 11:59.37 | oxek | microsoft has been very active in the last few years in terms of acquisitions, github etc. |
| 12:00.08 | oxek | so they could easily step in, saying they have lots of experience managing massive projects |
| 12:00.35 | oxek | or it might be some team formed from an alliance of microsoft, google, facebook |
| 12:00.42 | oxek | but I'm just speculating |
| 12:00.58 | oxek | of course we'd all love for debian to take over control of linux kernel development |
| 12:01.31 | *** join/#debian bubi67 (~klo_jnk@139.47.28.141) |
| 12:01.33 | Ede|Popede | and who'll take care of deabian and its 60s packages then? |
| 12:01.42 | Ede|Popede | s/60s/60k/ |
| 12:02.41 | oxek | 60s? Debian has old packages, but not that old :D |
| 12:02.57 | Ede|Popede | exactly my thought when i realized it :D |
| 12:03.18 | oxek | a fun thought indeed |
| 12:03.32 | Ede|Popede | alternate history |
| 12:03.55 | Ede|Popede | actually i like them. showing how fragile realits indeed is. |
| 12:03.56 | oiaohm | Only when it was picked up as a bug did I notice it was 60s instead of 90s |
| 12:04.47 | oxek | in any case, I apologize for dragging this channel into #debian-offtopic |
| 12:04.57 | oxek | was not my intention |
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| 12:19.30 | Lope | linus should just make a youtube video of himself standing at his standing desk wearing a kilt and all false sexual misconduct allegations will go to /dev/null. |
| 12:20.50 | Lope | anyone here good with wireguard? |
| 12:21.14 | Lope | i tried connecting to a wireguard VPN but it's a totally foreign situation. |
| 12:21.26 | Lope | the routing table doesn't seem to get updated. |
| 12:21.54 | Lope | Openvpn I can understand, but no idea WTF is going on with wireguard. Basically once it's up, no traffic can go anywhere and I don't know WTF is going on. |
| 12:26.18 | Lope | ratrace, you badly quoted Linus when you said <ratrace> and kernel itself has little security-specific features because Linus thinks infosec people are "masturbating monkeys" |
| 12:26.27 | Lope | this is what he actually said https://lkml.org/lkml/2008/7/15/296 |
| 12:26.56 | Lope | which I don't think anybody can disagree with any of his assertions other than the arbitrary insult. |
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| 12:30.28 | ratrace | Lope: but that's not the only commentary of his on the subject. the whole "security bugs are just bugs" stance and not labelling a lot of them is the biggest issue |
| 12:31.00 | ratrace | and then their argument is, like, why would you need specific labels, you should be using latest updates anyway |
| 12:31.17 | ratrace | that's GKH's but... in extension of Linus' |
| 12:36.47 | Lope | ratrace, I think you're misinterpreting what Linus meant. He explained his sentiment with an example. He said a security bug isn't more important than a bug that makes a system crash. |
| 12:37.09 | Lope | So you're extrapolating that to mean that he's saying a security bug isn't more important than a trivial bug, but that's not what he said. |
| 12:37.25 | ratrace | I'm not . the oss-sec mailing list community has been complaining that many bugs aren't labelled with a CVE |
| 12:37.37 | Lope | He's saying a security bug is as important as a crash bug. |
| 12:37.40 | ratrace | and GKH addressed that with a tl;dr -- use latest kernel |
| 12:37.55 | Lope | what's GKH? |
| 12:38.01 | Lope | oh yeah, I remember |
| 12:38.03 | Lope | hartman |
| 12:38.10 | ratrace | Greg Kroah Hartman, the lieutenant |
| 12:38.27 | tds | Lope: there's #wireguard for wg - but otherwise, a pastebin of the output of `wg; ip route; ip rule; ip route show table all` would be a good start |
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| 12:40.09 | Lope | tds, thanks bud. |
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| 12:45.00 | cipherize | Wow. My backscroll is just FILLED with total BS today. What happened in here? |
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| 12:55.32 | oxek | cipherize: I happened |
| 12:56.02 | oxek | Lope: when using the 'ip' command, I strongly recommend adding color to it |
| 12:56.15 | oxek | alias ip='ip -color=auto' |
| 12:56.18 | Lope | oxek, been doing so for years, thanks bud |
| 12:56.36 | Lope | my ip has RGB |
| 12:56.52 | oxek | I've been learning wireguard over the last month, so I might know something if you come across issues |
| 12:56.52 | Lope | the nerd version of gangsta |
| 12:57.10 | oxek | and yes, #wireguard is where the experts are |
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| 12:57.21 | Lope | I _have_ come across issues, but I'm just sorting out my SSH access etc, I'll be asking in #wireguard though |
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| 12:57.31 | Lope | Sweet, thanks! |
| 12:57.41 | oxek | remember that debian-stable kernel is 4.19 and it does not have the wireguard patches |
| 12:57.52 | oxek | so if all fails, try the 5.7 kernel from backports |
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| 12:58.00 | Lope | okay, well I'm testing wg in a much newer VM. |
| 12:58.03 | oxek | that one has everything wireguard needs |
| 12:58.11 | Lope | Thanks for the tip though!!! |
| 12:58.16 | Lope | didn't know. |
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| 12:59.21 | cipherize | Riiight, wg didn't make it into kernel proper until, uh, 5.6? |
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| 12:59.50 | Lope | surely wg was userspace before it got integrated into the kernel? |
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| 13:00.15 | oxek | on linux, wg always built a kernel module |
| 13:00.29 | Lope | orly. weird. |
| 13:00.46 | oxek | userspace was in android, windows, etc. |
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| 13:01.12 | oxek | the whole premise of wireguard was: eliminate choice of settings, use only newest known crypto, put everything into kernel |
| 13:01.17 | Lope | okay, so I doubt one could use it on openvz hahaha. unless the host magically decides to set it up. |
| 13:01.32 | cipherize | Isn't openvz ANCIENT? Still on a 2.x kernel? |
| 13:01.42 | Lope | yeah, fairly ancient. |
| 13:01.51 | Lope | but stable as fuck. |
| 13:02.30 | cipherize | That HAS to be a security nightmare. There's no way they could be backporting relevant security fixes that far back. |
| 13:02.34 | Lope | still heavily in use. it's just not trendy or used in new deployments. |
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| 13:02.58 | ratrace | Lope: "stable"... I guess you mean API/ABI stable, yes :) |
| 13:03.04 | Lope | cipherize, last time I checked they were doing very regular kernel updates still. |
| 13:03.23 | Lope | (that was a year or 2 ago, when I checked) |
| 13:03.46 | *** join/#debian debsan (~debsan@unaffiliated/debsan) |
| 13:04.18 | cipherize | Lope: Ah, they're still getting patches from RHEL because of RHEL 6. Which goes EOL in November. |
| 13:04.59 | Lope | Redhat is a security focused distro. |
| 13:05.01 | oxek | hmm, when does debian9 go EOL? |
| 13:05.36 | cipherize | Lope: I'm aware. But 2.6 patches end when RHEL 6 goes EOL. |
| 13:05.38 | oxek | redhat is definitely not a security focused distro, it's an enterprise focused distro |
| 13:06.10 | cipherize | oxek: 2020-07-06, now in LTS until ~2022. |
| 13:06.13 | cipherize | https://wiki.debian.org/DebianReleases |
| 13:06.39 | Lope | oxek, and enterprise doesn't care about security? |
| 13:06.40 | oxek | that's what I thought, debian9 is already in LTS mode only |
| 13:07.01 | oxek | Lope: security focused = qubes, whonix, etc. |
| 13:07.04 | Lope | cipherize, yeah, so I guess after that it could die. |
| 13:07.26 | Lope | oxek, okay, fair enough. |
| 13:07.28 | cipherize | Lope: That or they've been working on getting the RHEL 7 kernel ready. |
| 13:07.46 | oxek | enterprise focused = making it useable in enterprise, so security is often at odds with useability |
| 13:07.50 | Lope | cipherize, hard to say. But there must be millions of openvz containers running still. |
| 13:07.58 | cipherize | oxek: That's not really a useful comparison. End-user security obsessed is a completely different beast than an enterprise distro. |
| 13:08.21 | cipherize | Security is absolutely a focus for RHEL. |
| 13:08.41 | oxek | I'd say consistency of behavior is a focus for RHEL |
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| 13:08.54 | cipherize | As if there can only be one focus. |
| 13:08.55 | oxek | if security was primary priority, they'd always run latest kernel |
| 13:09.04 | Lope | cipherize, I think oxek is saying "security focused" means "it's the reason it exists." |
| 13:09.07 | cipherize | Never said it was the top priority. But it is A FOCUS. |
| 13:09.14 | cipherize | Lope: I get what he's trying to say. He's wrong. |
| 13:09.15 | Lope | in his definition. |
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| 13:09.29 | cipherize | Statements based on faulty premises are themselves faulty. |
| 13:09.40 | Lope | cipherize, okay, well I agree with you. |
| 13:09.55 | Lope | I said RH is security focused, not security obsessed. |
| 13:10.10 | oxek | RHEL still doesn't have all the newest fixes for meltdown/spectre because it is not feasible to backport them to the earliest supported kernels |
| 13:10.11 | Lope | that would be a clearer definition. |
| 13:10.15 | oxek | hence, not security focused |
| 13:10.28 | Lope | cos you could say whonix and qubes is security obsessed. |
| 13:11.44 | Lope | speaking of meltdown/spectre... interesting that Intel slows down dramatically with mitigations enabled in windows, but AMD gets faster with latest CPU microcode (includes a few spectre mitigations for AMD) |
| 13:11.55 | cipherize | oxek: You're trying to apply an arbitrary and shifting definition to what "security focused" means. Shipping a distro with SElinux enforcing by default, native integration with deployable security profiles and shipping STIG-compliant profiles, definitely indicates that you're dead wrong. |
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| 13:12.30 | cipherize | oxek: That is DEFINITELY security focused. That's why DoD uses RHEL and not some other product. And I'd know, I used to run a DoD datacenter. |
| 13:12.44 | Lope | deep. |
| 13:13.17 | Lope | if cipherize made a mistake he would have been exhiled. |
| 13:13.20 | oxek | I stand by my earlier statement that they are an enterprise-focused distro, where security is important to them, however security is often at odds with useability and they always go with being useable rather than secure when they need to make a choice between those two. |
| 13:13.32 | cipherize | oxek: Applying EVERY SECURITY FIX EVER isn't a reasonable action, even in the security world. You know that, right? |
| 13:13.37 | Lope | cipherize, you could move in with edward. |
| 13:14.19 | cipherize | oxek: Apply a security fix because it exists and crashing everything means you've just sacrificed availability in order to say "yes, its patched." You just ruined your own security posture. |
| 13:14.31 | oxek | DoD is hardly a good example of security done right |
| 13:14.42 | oxek | no government agency is |
| 13:14.42 | cipherize | oxek: You'd be surprised, on the infrastructure side. |
| 13:15.04 | Lope | cipherize, you don't like my jokes? |
| 13:15.11 | cipherize | oxek: National security/intelligence is a whole different world. |
| 13:15.12 | n4dir | heads over to ams and loads the noise module ... |
| 13:15.24 | cipherize | Lope: I didn't really get them. o.o Sorry. |
| 13:15.40 | Lope | all good |
| 13:15.51 | Hallcyon | Is debian down still? |
| 13:15.55 | cipherize | oxek: So, yeah. Your arguments are crap, here. Sorry. |
| 13:15.56 | Hallcyon | https://paste.debian.net/ |
| 13:16.06 | Hallcyon | Its been down for weeks |
| 13:16.10 | cipherize | Hallcyon: Down for me, yes. |
| 13:16.15 | Hallcyon | :/ |
| 13:16.24 | Hallcyon | I guess I'll move to Ubuntu |
| 13:16.40 | oxek | cipherize: one sysadmin can copy all sorts of data an exfiltrate it, and their response to that is a change in internal policy instead of technological improvements |
| 13:17.18 | cipherize | oxek: Another lesson from Security 101: Technical controls will NEVER provide full coverage. If a change in policy fixes the issue, then fine. |
| 13:17.31 | abrotman | perhaps you'd like to use #debian-offtopic |
| 13:17.32 | cipherize | oxek: If technical controls solved all problems, we wouldn't need policies. |
| 13:17.36 | cipherize | abrotman: Fair. |
| 13:17.37 | oxek | they've been warned about those things for decades, but they never cared, thinking it's not gonna happen. And when it happened, they still didn't listen to us. |
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| 13:18.22 | ratrace | Hallcyon: you'll move to Ubuntu because debian pastebin is down? |
| 13:20.05 | *** join/#debian pasiz_ (~pasiz@unaffiliated/pasiz) |
| 13:20.10 | Lope | ratrace, I'll move my browser to ubuntu to reduce fingerprinting... does that count? :) |
| 13:20.14 | oxek | Hallcyon: p.d.n is not an official debian 'product'. There are many other pastebins you could use, including ubuntu pastebin. Hopefully you did not mean you're switching an operating system because a 3rd party pastebin is down. |
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| 13:21.17 | Lope | I liked ubuntu, until I realized the noobs there couldn't help me with my crazy ideas. |
| 13:21.52 | ratrace | Lope: don't forget to disable motd and other spyware first :) |
| 13:21.59 | Hallcyon | oxek Unfortunately as much as I love debian for its stability, the community pastebin is fundamental to my workflow and thus with a heavy heart I must move. |
| 13:22.08 | Hallcyon | <PROTECTED> |
| 13:22.25 | oxek | ubuntu was on the verge of greatness, almost capable to overtake the entire linux ecosystem, right before they came out with Unity and focus on combining small phone screens with huge desktop monitors. |
| 13:22.38 | Lope | ratrace, thanks for the reminder. I'll do a ubuntu cleansing deep-dive. |
| 13:22.47 | Hallcyon | Any pastebin recommendations? Ubuntu annoys me as requires signing in or username plus sign in for plain text |
| 13:22.49 | n4dir | Hallcyon: you can't use a different pastepage? |
| 13:23.01 | oxek | Hallcyon: what sort of features do you need from a pastebin? termbin.com or 0x0.net |
| 13:23.04 | ratrace | Hallcyon: bpaste.net and dpaste.de are my favorites |
| 13:23.13 | oxek | I mean 0x0.st |
| 13:23.34 | ratrace | termbin.com is nice when I need to pipe output instead of feeding it copypasta |
| 13:23.35 | Lope | oxek, it was a good idea, but they just failed. Not all projects succeed. |
| 13:23.47 | Hallcyon | hmmm.... NET::ERR_CERT_COMMON_NAME_INVALID |
| 13:23.54 | Hallcyon | not a good start on 0x0 |
| 13:24.03 | Lope | oxek, ubuntu touch is getting a second life in pinephone. Maybe it'll live. |
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| 13:24.18 | oxek | Hallcyon: I meant 0x0.st, the .net was wrong |
| 13:25.00 | cipherize | Hallcyon: ix.io, I think? paste from term |
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| 13:25.09 | oxek | Lope: ubuntu suffers from not-invented-here syndrome. Fortunately debian does not really invent things, so we're safe. |
| 13:25.11 | Hallcyon | ok decided on termbin and bpaste |
| 13:25.14 | Hallcyon | cheers |
| 13:25.25 | n4dir | Hallcyon: i just pasted to paste.ubuntu.com with pastebinit -b paste.ubuntu.com my_text; no sign in needed |
| 13:25.25 | Hallcyon | can I change pastebinit to use termbin too? |
| 13:25.36 | Hallcyon | n4dir from the web |
| 13:25.49 | Hallcyon | I post by copying and pasting usually |
| 13:25.51 | n4dir | yeah, got that. That sucks, i didn't know that |
| 13:26.05 | oxek | Hallcyon: alias pb='nc termbin.com 9999' is not good enough? |
| 13:26.14 | Lope | oxek, what does that syndrome involve? |
| 13:26.38 | Hallcyon | oxek its nice but I will forget it by tomorrow |
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| 13:28.10 | oxek | Lope: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_invented_here |
| 13:28.23 | oxek | !nih |
| 13:28.24 | dpkg | somebody said nih was "Not Invented Here" - a syndrome often suffered by developers and companies who tend to reinvent the wheel for no reason other than being able to put their name on it. |
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| 13:28.57 | ratrace | and Ubuntu does it for vendor lock-in |
| 13:28.58 | Hallcyon | ah, avconv |
| 13:29.09 | Hallcyon | I love avconv |
| 13:29.14 | Hallcyon | Its like ffmpeg |
| 13:29.29 | Hallcyon | But its called avconv |
| 13:30.19 | ratrace | libav was a political fork of ffmpeg but that adventure was ended, ffmpeg prevailed. |
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| 13:30.54 | ratrace | for a brief period debian was caught by the libav propaganda, drank the koolaid, but soon sobered up and reverted to ffmpeg. |
| 13:30.59 | oxek | now we just need to fix the cdrtools issue too and peace will once again exist in linuxland |
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| 13:31.55 | Lope | oxek, ratrace, ah, like LXD |
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| 13:32.12 | oxek | Lope: lxd, unity, mir, etc. |
| 13:32.16 | ratrace | Lope: lxd, netplan, snaps, zsys, unity, mir, .... |
| 13:32.20 | Lope | I heard snaps is a similar thing. |
| 13:32.48 | Lope | I read it's going to be a closed source armageddon |
| 13:33.28 | ratrace | Lope: if by that you mean it'll allow vendors to package up their proprietary applications for easier delivery into linux? yes. is that bad? no. |
| 13:34.02 | ratrace | same can happen with flatpaks, appimg, docker, rocket, podman, ...... |
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| 13:34.33 | Lope | yeah, but with snaps it'll likely be controlled by ubuntu. |
| 13:34.41 | Lope | (apparently) |
| 13:34.45 | ratrace | "controlled" |
| 13:34.49 | Lope | The next apple app store. |
| 13:34.56 | Lope | 30% commission baby |
| 13:34.57 | ratrace | Canonical wants the opposite, ZERO involvement and maintainership |
| 13:35.22 | ratrace | whole reason they're pushing snaps is to maximize deliverability while minimizing (their) maintainership effort. |
| 13:35.23 | Lope | Oh, alright. I don't care enough to really know anything about it. |
| 13:36.26 | oxek | the problem with ubuntu is the same as with google or mozilla - you never know when they are going to drop the product you're using |
| 13:36.35 | ratrace | ,v snapd |
| 13:36.36 | judd | Package: snapd on amd64 -- stretch: 2.21-2+b1; buster: 2.37.4-1+b1; bullseye: 2.45.2-1; sid: 2.45.2-1 |
| 13:36.42 | ratrace | it's not an "ubuntu" issue btw |
| 13:36.54 | oxek | if ubuntu needs to cut costs, they'll just get rid of snapcraft |
| 13:37.13 | oxek | and then it will once again be a mess of each dev having their own store |
| 13:37.43 | oxek | hard to not call it a frankendebian when you have 50 apt repos in it |
| 13:38.04 | ratrace | hence the value of containerized application delivery |
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| 13:40.42 | ratrace | see this Pinta issue someone mentioned. Debian can't package it for policy reasons. so you can install a premade container with it (assuming it's from the trusted vendor). win-win. |
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| 13:42.05 | ratrace | the only problem I have with snapstore is that it allows anyone to upload anything, so you must be careful and check that a snap is coming from its developers in an official capacity. |
| 13:43.02 | oxek | that's why I prefer flathub. Check a single yaml or json file, and it shows you where it gets its sources. |
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| 13:43.59 | Lope | oxek, so is everything on flathub compiled by flathub? |
| 13:44.01 | ratrace | snaps do too |
| 13:44.04 | Lope | like f-droid? |
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| 13:44.32 | oxek | Lope: everything opensource yes, proprietary stuff is still compiled by others. |
| 13:44.40 | oxek | but it is packaged according to flathub rules |
| 13:44.49 | Lope | BTW does anyone here use an android emulator that they'd recommend, as capable as bluestacks? |
| 13:45.04 | Lope | oxek, cool. |
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| 13:45.44 | oxek | Lope: don't use android-x86, it's been hacked a few months back and not restored yet |
| 13:45.58 | oxek | other than that, the land of android emulators is pretty bad |
| 13:46.06 | Lope | oxek, you're joking??? |
| 13:46.07 | oxek | if you want free/opensource ones |
| 13:46.10 | *** join/#debian rf-n00b (rf-n00b@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/rf-n00b) |
| 13:46.19 | oxek | Lope: check the homepage, full of casino and porn links |
| 13:46.38 | Lope | oxek, I had a look not that long ago and it looked normal. |
| 13:47.28 | ratrace | Lope: actually _read_ the "SPonsors" section :) |
| 13:47.31 | oxek | it has been like that for many months |
| 13:47.40 | ratrace | spornsors section :)) |
| 13:47.47 | oxek | with no communication from dev about it |
| 13:47.54 | oxek | and nothing on github about it either |
| 13:49.17 | Lope | oxek, how can android-x86 be hacked for months that's crazy. Yeah I see, it's screwed. |
| 13:49.27 | oxek | check the bottom of the page too |
| 13:49.33 | oxek | links and images from casinos, etc. |
| 13:50.02 | ratrace | I don't think it's hacked... |
| 13:50.17 | oxek | the page is on github pages, and whoever has access to it is making those changes https://github.com/android-x86/android-x86.github.io/commit/56266a482cc58abe157bf8cc1af2e2e0e1fcbf6d |
| 13:50.43 | Lope | ratrace, so what do you think? |
| 13:50.49 | oxek | if the dev said something like "Android x86 is used on many casino slot machines, hence the casinos are providing financial support" then it would be ok |
| 13:50.53 | oxek | but no communication from dev about it |
| 13:51.09 | oxek | but it is so many casinos, from so many places |
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| 13:51.24 | Lope | You know I once had a small software project... and tried to make money with it by doing affiliate advertising. But affiliates didn't pay me a cent after thousands of hits for months. |
| 13:51.26 | oxek | and most opensource projects get hardly any sponsorship anyway |
| 13:51.30 | oxek | so it is all fishy |
| 13:51.58 | Lope | So I tried everything. I even tried putting adultfriendfinder on the site. Didn't make shitall money. Eventually I stopped bothering to pay for the hosting and took the software project down. |
| 13:52.27 | Lope | So it's possible that the legitemate devs have put casinos etc to make some money. I wouldn't blame them for trying it. |
| 13:52.31 | ratrace | Lope: just sold off for link placement |
| 13:52.56 | oxek | in any case, it does not make me confident about using android-x86 |
| 13:53.11 | oxek | the lack of communication about it is the worst part |
| 13:53.21 | Lope | oxek, I wouldn't say it's "fishy" because the casinos will list on anybody's site. |
| 13:53.53 | oxek | Lope: it's done by someone with access to the devs github account, based on that commit I linked |
| 13:54.02 | oxek | it's not a simple advertisement space |
| 13:54.13 | oxek | and there are no affiliate links there either |
| 13:54.25 | oxek | it's pure url addresses of casinos and other questionable places |
| 13:54.32 | Lope | oxek, yeah. It could be the main dev who's trying to monetize the site? |
| 13:54.51 | oxek | how would you monetize the site without any tags on those links? |
| 13:54.58 | ratrace | there are multiple contributor to the project. if nobody complained... they're either stupid (associating their names with a project that's hacked) or approving of the changes. |
| 13:55.21 | Lope | oxek, I tried to search DDG about "android-x86 hacked" etc and couldn't find any news articles about it. |
| 13:55.21 | oxek | or nobody actually checks the homepage and the repo that controls the homepage |
| 13:56.35 | oxek | I mean, the page has "Luxury fake rolex for sale under $50, the best replica rolex watches." |
| 13:56.50 | oxek | that certainly breaks at least some law somewhere |
| 13:57.13 | oxek | I wouldn't want to use a project that is essentially an operating system when it advertises such stuff |
| 13:58.27 | Lope | oxek, I think the lead dev is a chinese dude. |
| 13:58.59 | Lope | In china the culture of caring about brand copyright etc is not so popular. |
| 13:59.18 | ratrace | well..... anbox is packaged in Buster, so..... just use that |
| 13:59.26 | Lope | I'm not making excuses for the morality of it. Just saying that it's not proof that it's been hacked. |
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| 13:59.57 | Lope | ratrace, cool, never heard of it. Will have a look thanks. |
| 14:00.13 | ratrace | Lope: eh, it's only most popular tool :) |
| 14:00.33 | Lope | ratrace, I always thought that android-x86 was the go-to. |
| 14:00.53 | oxek | Lope: doesn't change how I feel about it. How would you feel if debian homepage had such a huge sponsors section with same links like android-x86 with no communication about it? |
| 14:01.32 | oxek | would you think everything is ok and go about your business downloading ISOs and using them to install your operating system? |
| 14:01.36 | Lope | well, different because debian is not a tiny project. |
| 14:01.47 | Lope | android-x86 has always been a tiny team. |
| 14:02.16 | oxek | debian unfortunately is a tiny project. 800k USD donations last year? That does not even pay for 10 devs salary working fulltime. |
| 14:02.17 | Lope | I'm not saying I'm comfortable using android-x86, no. All I'm saying is nothing you've said is proof that it's been hacked. |
| 14:03.43 | joepublic | Not a good sign, though |
| 14:05.58 | Lope | Like I'm a pretty normal guy. I would never think of getting involved in porn business or whatever. But when I had a software site and couldn't monetize it with anything available, I said "fuckit" and as a hail mary I put adultfriendfinder on it to see if it would make money with the 10k hits per month it was getting. (as an experiment that I wasn't entirely comfortable with, but did it more as a tech/making-money-online experiment) But it made no money so I |
| 14:05.58 | Lope | just shut it down cos didn't want to waste money on hosting. This was like 20 years ago. |
| 14:07.01 | Lope | So all I'm saying is don't jump to the worst conclusions cos you see casinos and whatever else on a tiny software project's site. Sometimes people need to make money with a project or the project dies. |
| 14:07.05 | alex11 | well this is an interesting discussion to wake up to |
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| 14:10.03 | ratrace | Lope: And yet there's a ton of tiny FOSS projects struggling for money, and nobody's doing this. |
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| 14:10.32 | ratrace | there are patreon and similar services to monetize far more legitimately, if you're after monetization |
| 14:11.06 | Lope | ratrace, I didn't know about patreon 20 years ago though. |
| 14:11.24 | Lope | But with regards to android-x86 I agree, it seems that they might have better options. |
| 14:12.25 | ratrace | not talking about 20 years ago and a single link to adultfinder, but about a page with dozens of links to pron and casions and shady stuff |
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| 14:18.42 | oxek | Lope: true, you only ever get a confirmation that a site has been hacked once the site owners admit to it. But for me I err on the side of caution and when something looks hacked, I consider it hacked - and none of the devs responded to emails about it in months. |
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| 14:20.36 | Lope | oxek, oh, you emailed them as well? |
| 14:20.55 | oxek | yes, they had 3 gmail addresses on the contact page |
| 14:21.07 | Lope | wow, yeah that's pretty terrible then. |
| 14:21.40 | Lope | oxek, I didn't know that anbox existed. Did you? If so, why were you interested in android-x86 over anbox? |
| 14:21.40 | oxek | no reply does not mean confirmation of anything though |
| 14:22.05 | Lope | I've installed anbox on an eee laptop before. it was more of a gimmick than anything else. |
| 14:22.14 | oxek | Lope: I wanted to try anbox but it required a newer CPU with some special feature than I had back then, so I came across android-x86 |
| 14:22.22 | oxek | anbox should work though in theory |
| 14:22.27 | oxek | and it is in debian |
| 14:22.35 | oxek | ,v anbox |
| 14:22.36 | judd | Package: anbox on amd64 -- stretch-backports/contrib: 0.0~git20181014-1~bpo9+1; buster/contrib: 0.0~git20190124-1; bullseye/contrib: 0.0~git20200526-1+b2; sid/contrib: 0.0~git20200526-1+b2 |
| 14:22.51 | Lope | yeah, also anbox is much nicer if you consider that you're running android apps in debian. |
| 14:23.02 | Lope | whereas with android-x86 you're fully in android. |
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| 14:23.32 | Lope | so you could run libreoffice and some android app side by side in the same DE. |
| 14:25.35 | oxek | I don't use a smartphone anyway. Only wanted android on pc so that I could get some banking and authenticator apps. |
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| 14:25.56 | Lope | oxek, interesting. you sound like a security researcher? |
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| 14:26.15 | Lope | oxek, did you get everything running? |
| 14:30.53 | oxek | ended up getting a chromebook that had compatibility with android apps |
| 14:31.02 | oxek | and I use it for just that |
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| 14:31.32 | Ericounet | just discovered anbox .... thanks! |
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| 14:34.53 | Ericounet | it works :D |
| 14:35.01 | Ericounet | funny! |
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| 15:09.47 | cockroach | I recently installed Debian on an older Macbook and it worked just great. Unfortunately I had to redo the partitions afterwards and re-install grub, now I'm getting some grub errors before it (successfully) boots and I think it takes a bit longer. the errors are "error: no such device ", followed by my /boot partitions UUID, and "error: no server is specified" which sounds a bit like it's trying to boot |
| 15:09.53 | cockroach | from PXE. |
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| 15:10.03 | cockroach | would anyone happen to know how I get get rid of those? |
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| 15:14.46 | diogenes_ | *roach>, try: sudo grub-update |
| 15:16.04 | diogenes_ | sudo pdate-grub |
| 15:16.13 | cockroach | diogenes_: do you mean update-grub? that didn't help.. |
| 15:16.19 | diogenes_ | i always mix it up. |
| 15:16.21 | cockroach | heh |
| 15:16.30 | cockroach | I'm still getting the same errors though |
| 15:17.20 | diogenes_ | *roach, but did it update with no errors? |
| 15:17.25 | cockroach | it did |
| 15:17.47 | another | where did you install grub? |
| 15:17.56 | cockroach | to /dev/sda |
| 15:18.19 | cockroach | it's UEFI though, so I'm not entirely sure *what* happens there :) |
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| 15:19.02 | diogenes_ | if it's a mac doesn't it need rEFInd? |
| 15:19.13 | cockroach | doesn't seem to |
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| 15:21.15 | diogenes_ | *roach, you can pastebin /boot/grub/grub.cfg. |
| 15:21.21 | cockroach | sure! hold on |
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| 15:24.04 | cockroach | (seems pastebinit is broken, still working on it) |
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| 15:25.05 | diogenes_ | cat /boot/grub/grub.cfg | nc termbin.com 9999 |
| 15:25.36 | cockroach | excellent, thanks. https://termbin.com/o21b |
| 15:26.35 | cockroach | however, there is also a file /boot/efi/EFI/debian/grub.cfg which looks like this: https://termbin.com/ew2bc |
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| 15:29.08 | diogenes_ | as i see it's lvm and xfs? |
| 15:29.22 | cockroach | actually, luks + lvm + xfs |
| 15:29.26 | cockroach | but yes |
| 15:29.44 | cockroach | sda1 is for EFI, sda2 is /boot and sda3 is luks + stuff |
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| 15:30.56 | diogenes_ | maybe it's related to that but luks lvm, xfs is still terra incognita for me. |
| 15:32.19 | cockroach | it's a scary but fun combination. also, on other machines it works just fine, but of course I'm not using UEFI anywhere else... |
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| 15:47.41 | oxek | cockroach: are you on debian stable or testing? That config has syntax that looks like testing. |
| 15:48.10 | cockroach | oxek: stable (buster), according to my sources.list |
| 15:48.53 | oxek | hmm. I did a diff of your config and mine, and it looks almost identical except for insmod xfs vs insmod ext2 on my part, and the UUID parts |
| 15:48.57 | oxek | and a few other meaningless ones |
| 15:49.09 | oxek | so there's nothing immediatelly wrong with it |
| 15:50.11 | cockroach | thanks for checking |
| 15:50.39 | cockroach | could it be that my manual "grub-install" was different from what the debian installer did? |
| 15:51.41 | cockroach | i.e. that the problem lies with the way grub was installed to the disk rather than the config file? |
| 15:52.02 | oxek | possibly |
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| 15:52.15 | oxek | I am on uefi, with lvm & luks too |
| 15:52.37 | cockroach | ah nice, so at least that part should be okay. I assume you're not getting any such error messages? :) |
| 15:52.46 | oxek | and also have EFI partition on sda1, boot on sda2 and luks on sda3 |
| 15:53.06 | oxek | no such error messages on my side |
| 15:53.12 | cockroach | excellent, means I'm not doing something too weird :) |
| 15:53.40 | cockroach | so it might just be the mac being stupid |
| 15:53.50 | oxek | unless you mean those meaningless messages about the volume group not being found before you enter the password |
| 15:53.55 | oxek | those messages can be safely ignored |
| 15:54.20 | cockroach | hmm no, not those. I'm seeing "error: no such device" and "error: no server is specified" before the grub prompt |
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| 15:55.01 | diogenes_ | *roach>, run: sudo blkid and see if UUIDs match with those in grub.cfg. |
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| 15:55.39 | banana34 | bananas are great |
| 15:56.37 | cockroach | diogenes_: d41... is sda2 so that should be fine |
| 15:57.50 | diogenes_ | then look for those errors in: journalctl -xb |
| 15:58.08 | cockroach | the grub error? |
| 15:58.10 | cockroach | errors* |
| 15:58.50 | cockroach | they're not in there |
| 15:59.03 | cockroach | they happen before the grub menu even shows |
| 15:59.35 | oxek | almost sounds like you're chainloading grub. Did you install grub to the block device or to a partition? |
| 15:59.55 | cockroach | to the device, I used 'grub-install /dev/sda' |
| 16:00.05 | cockroach | hmm |
| 16:00.28 | banana34 | fruits, especially bananas, are great |
| 16:00.41 | oxek | that command looks incomplete |
| 16:01.24 | cockroach | if I installed it to the partition, then some other bootloader would have to be installed to the device, right? can't say I fully get how UEFI works... |
| 16:01.35 | cockroach | incomplete? |
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| 16:12.47 | rokra | Hello, just did an upgrade of a debian OVH VPS and now I m stukc to start Maria service due to the kernel 3.2.0-4-amd64 instead of booting on new one installed linux-image-4.9.0-13-amd64, how to force it to restart on new kernel ? |
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| 16:17.53 | towo` | rokra, maybe your vps is running on a host kernel, not a guest one |
| 16:18.22 | tete_ | hi, i'd like to create a cronjob that gets executed after a reboot and print me some infos. i tried with: @reboot /usr/bin/sleep 3 && wall "hello world" |
| 16:18.28 | tete_ | but nothing happens after a reboot and login as root |
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| 16:18.35 | tete_ | can someone tell me why this does not get executed? |
| 16:21.32 | joepublic | wall should perhaps be /usr/bin/wall |
| 16:21.49 | cockroach | tete_: if you use "touch /tmp/test" rather than the wall command, does that do anything? |
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| 16:22.01 | cockroach | or what joepublic said |
| 16:22.14 | phogg | joepublic: /usr/bin should be in the default PATH for cron jobs i DEbian |
| 16:22.35 | joepublic | thanks, didn't know |
| 16:24.02 | tds | rokra: what does `systemd-detect-virt` output? |
| 16:26.10 | phogg | joepublic: it gets set in /etc/crontab so you can always double check my math |
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| 16:33.18 | tete_ | i tested it now with /usr/bin/wall but still nothing |
| 16:33.27 | tete_ | in the same line i created a file in /root, that worked |
| 16:33.54 | tete_ | @reboot echo "i got touched" > /root/test && /usr/bin/wall "hello world" |
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| 16:34.00 | tete_ | the file exists but no wall message |
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| 16:35.49 | tete_ | i just want to print some status information to root, maybe there is also another way to achieve that |
| 16:36.09 | cockroach | tete_: so far so good. maybe wall needs something in the environment in order to work? |
| 16:36.22 | tete_ | maybe, but how to figure that out? |
| 16:36.43 | cockroach | you could try comparing 'env' when running from cron with 'env' on the command line |
| 16:36.50 | tete_ | ok |
| 16:37.32 | tete_ | jep there is some difference xD |
| 16:37.33 | cockroach | tete_: sorry, got to go, I'm sure others will be able to help with further investigations. |
| 16:37.38 | cockroach | excellent! :) |
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| 16:38.55 | tete_ | unfortunately debian pastebin is down, so here its on pastebin: https://pastebin.com/6q4VpnsZ |
| 16:39.25 | tete_ | oh my bad, i did "su" not "su -" |
| 16:39.50 | tete_ | https://pastebin.com/nAMQLckH thats with "su -" |
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| 16:40.22 | tete_ | there is no user defined, maybe wall needs that |
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| 16:45.40 | tete_ | i guess i found the problem... root must be logged in to recieve a message |
| 16:45.53 | tete_ | is there some way to send a message even when no one is logged in? just to tty1? |
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| 17:05.07 | nvz | there are lots of ways |
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| 17:06.14 | nvz | tete_: as root try this command |
| 17:06.22 | nvz | echo "hello" > /dev/tty1 |
| 17:06.28 | nvz | and then press ctrl+alt+f1 |
| 17:06.43 | nvz | and be amazed :P |
| 17:07.49 | nvz | the virtual consoles are files that can be read and written to just like anything else. In linux most everything is exposed to the filesystem |
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| 17:12.05 | diogenes_ | nvz, GNU/Linux :) |
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| 17:17.10 | nvz | <PROTECTED> |
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| 17:26.51 | tete_ | nvz, thanks but that does not help me |
| 17:27.07 | tete_ | when i start linux and i have the screen where i can log in, how can i send something there |
| 17:27.16 | tete_ | WITHOUT being logged in |
| 17:27.38 | tete_ | i just tried with @reboot echo "hi" > /dev/tty; but nothing happened |
| 17:27.47 | tete_ | when i do that logged in i see the message |
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| 17:31.37 | nvz | tete_: you are not making any sense.. what are you trying to do? script something to show a message on the virtual console? |
| 17:31.56 | nvz | you can't do ANYTHING on a system you're not logged in to.. |
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| 17:32.48 | tete_ | nvz, i have a script that adds a cronjob with a @reboot, this script which is executed after the reboot does some stuff and i want to inform anyone that sits at the terminal to show whats going on |
| 17:33.30 | nvz | tete_: then, yes, what I just told you will work.. it just has to be done as a user with permissions to access /dev/tty1 |
| 17:33.44 | nvz | but its less than ideal was just a proof of concept |
| 17:33.54 | tete_ | and for me, it looks like as if this script is working even tho i am not logged in as root because the files i create are generated but that "wall" does not show anything, so i assume this job is executed but wall does nothing because no one is logged in |
| 17:34.16 | tete_ | this is nothing productive, this is just a script for the university |
| 17:34.24 | tete_ | we should try to automate as much as possible |
| 17:34.28 | nvz | yes well wall is only to send messages to users.. they have to be logged in |
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| 17:36.24 | tete_ | i have: @reboot echo "hi" > /dev/tty1 |
| 17:36.26 | tete_ | nothing is printed |
| 17:36.49 | nvz | because the script is probably not running with permissions to access /dev/tty1 |
| 17:36.58 | nvz | either way this is not something you should really be doing |
| 17:37.23 | tete_ | with this script i can access /root, so i guess i should be able to access /dev/tty1 |
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| 17:37.31 | nvz | I can't imagine what you're actually doing, but it doesn't seem to make any sense.. you shouldn't need to inform anyone not logged in of anything |
| 17:37.50 | tete_ | this is for testing purposes of my university |
| 17:38.22 | nvz | you should probably be writing to the motd so they see it WHEN they login |
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| 17:39.22 | nvz | tete_: but fwiw the non-login version of motd is called issue |
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| 17:39.33 | nvz | but for the record sounds like a bad idea to me :P |
| 17:39.44 | tete_ | one more time: this is a POC, nothing else |
| 17:39.52 | tete_ | its like setting the setuid bit to vim |
| 17:40.05 | nvz | I get that, and I gave you POC code.. you can write directly to a tty |
| 17:40.08 | nvz | you just need permissions |
| 17:40.29 | nvz | I also just told you the issue is whats shown prior to login, the motd is whats shown after |
| 17:40.34 | tete_ | what could cause that i can write to /root/blah but not to /dev/tty |
| 17:40.46 | nvz | like where it says "Debian 10 Buster" thats the issue |
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| 17:41.05 | nvz | tete_: cat /etc/issue |
| 17:41.10 | nvz | and you will see the message that is already there |
| 17:41.24 | tete_ | nvz, i do some calculation |
| 17:41.29 | tete_ | i dont want to touch etc/issue nor /etc/motd |
| 17:41.42 | tete_ | after that calculation (takes 10 seconds) i want to print that its done and the machine will shutdown |
| 17:41.55 | nvz | well look, I'm done with this issue, you can ask someone else or you can write your own operating system |
| 17:42.00 | nvz | I'm telling you how things work :P |
| 17:42.04 | tete_ | omg |
| 17:42.49 | nvz | yes omg is right.. you're being obtuse about wanting to do something but not accepting the ways its possible to do it |
| 17:42.58 | nvz | you want to use wall? rewrite it |
| 17:43.04 | nvz | thats not how it works |
| 17:43.14 | tete_ | i did not say i am forced to use wall |
| 17:43.16 | nvz | you want a message before login, put it in the damn /etc/issue file |
| 17:43.22 | tete_ | i thought that should work, it does not, ok, so i need to find another solution |
| 17:43.24 | nvz | or write directly to the tty |
| 17:43.57 | tete_ | <nvz> or write directly to the tty <- i told you now at least 3 times that this did not work |
| 17:44.06 | tete_ | but seems like you are unable to understand my problem that this did not work |
| 17:44.29 | nvz | it DOES work |
| 17:44.35 | nvz | if you do it like I told you.. AS ROOT |
| 17:44.47 | nvz | if the script isnt or can't run as root, then change permissions of the tty |
| 17:44.53 | nvz | which again, this is a bad idea |
| 17:44.57 | tete_ | wow |
| 17:45.13 | tete_ | but ... did you read that i can access /root and write in there, which requires the script being run as root or with root permissions? |
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| 17:45.28 | tete_ | or did you skip those lines |
| 17:45.38 | mihi | tete_, accessing /root proves nothing. Post output of "id -a". |
| 17:45.48 | mihi | when run by that script |
| 17:46.06 | tete_ | ok, thats a step forward, ill try that |
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| 17:46.21 | nvz | I didnt just tell you this... I tested it first.. I opened an exterm typed sudo su, then the command I gave you and I went to tty1 and it was there.. I did this because a LOT has changed since I done something this silly.. and I wanted to make sure it still works |
| 17:46.56 | tete_ | jep nvz it works, WHEN I AM LOGGED IN |
| 17:46.58 | tete_ | jesus |
| 17:47.08 | tete_ | id -a prints: |
| 17:47.28 | tete_ | uid=0(root) gid=0(root) groups=0(root) |
| 17:47.42 | tete_ | i created a: @reboot id -a > /root/id |
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| 17:47.50 | tete_ | after the reboot i did a "cat /root/id" and thats the output |
| 17:47.53 | nvz | again, you have to be logged in to do anything.. and I wasnt logged onto tty1 when I did it, I was logged in to lightdm on tty7 when I did it |
| 17:48.06 | _Fremen_ | Hello everyone |
| 17:48.09 | nvz | there is no such thing as doing something on a linux system without being logged in |
| 17:48.15 | nvz | because that would be ridiculous |
| 17:48.30 | _Fremen_ | I asked this on debian testing but did not receive an answer, can you help me with this? |
| 17:48.42 | _Fremen_ | I am using debian testing and started to experience a weird issue lately, when I restart the computer, the sound is gone and only way to fix it is disconnect sound cable (the green one) and reconnect it. Does anyone now what could cause this? |
| 17:51.28 | mihi | tete_, so could you explain again what exactly is not working? Keep in mind that with systemd, gettys are started when you switch to the terminal the first time, and it will clear the screen. |
| 17:51.54 | mihi | So when you do 'echo hi >/dev/tty5', switch to tty5 and back, then 'echo ho >/dev/tty5' you will only see ho and not hi |
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| 17:52.55 | tete_ | in the university we set up a virtualbox with debian. this debian virtualbox is configured to use virtualbox addons etc. - and it requires a reboot. our goal was to automate as much as possible. so i log in as root, start the script and it does some stuff e.g. configuring network, installing the virtualbox addons. then i create a crontab with @reboot so my script can continue and then i do that reboot. |
| 17:53.21 | mihi | and all that time, the virtual machine is showing the login prompt on tty1? |
| 17:53.24 | tete_ | after that reboot, i want to continue and print some information. i dont care if i have to login or not, but i need information printed. unfortunately, with wall it did not work |
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| 17:53.40 | tete_ | yes, but it is rebooted once |
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| 17:54.52 | mihi | tete_, can you test this: Run a script @reboot that sleeps 30 seconds (or more) then prints Hi. |
| 17:54.59 | tete_ | with echo? |
| 17:55.15 | mihi | yes. assuming that your machine takes less than 30 seconds from initrd to showing the login prompt |
| 17:55.28 | tete_ | with or without logging in? i guess with... |
| 17:55.37 | mihi | with no logging in |
| 17:55.39 | tete_ | ok |
| 17:55.50 | mihi | I just want to see if the problem is that cron starts before getty initializes tty1 |
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| 17:57.08 | mihi | so the echo Hi like before, just sleep before you do it |
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| 17:57.22 | tete_ | echo "hi" prints nothing on tty1 without logging in |
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| 18:00.46 | mihi | but the login prompt is visible on tty1? Because I tested it too and it works in my VM (also VirtualBox) |
| 18:01.03 | tete_ | yes i see: debian login: and a blinking cursor |
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| 18:01.28 | tete_ | i have: @reboot sleep 30 && echo "HIIII" |
| 18:01.39 | tete_ | thats what crontab -l prints after logging in as root |
| 18:02.00 | mihi | argh. You wanted to print to /dev/tty1... |
| 18:02.21 | tete_ | ok, i test it with echo "hi" > /dev/tty1 |
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| 18:03.00 | mihi | yeah. By the way, when you are at university, you should learn about shell quoting rules at some point. It hurts my eyes when quoting useless words... |
| 18:03.22 | tete_ | yay it worked |
| 18:03.39 | tete_ | so do i have to use some sleep? how do i know when i can print that info? |
| 18:03.49 | mihi | in other words, »echo hi« will do the same as »echo "hi"« or even »e"ch"o h"i"« |
| 18:04.20 | tete_ | i know but it makes it easier for me to read... its like a function, echo("some string..."); |
| 18:04.32 | mihi | my suggestion would be to change /etc/issue, sleep a bit, then change /etc/issue back. Or if you want to do it fancy wait until ps lists the getty process on tty1. |
| 18:05.01 | mihi | but if it is only some information after reboot, sleep should probably suffice |
| 18:06.43 | tete_ | is /dev/tty for all tty's? so a echo "hi" > /dev/tty would be better because if someone switched the tty then he also recognizes it |
| 18:07.30 | nvz | the issue with cron and sleep in this context, and trying to write to the tty is that it assumes things run synchronously and there can never be any variance in how it happens |
| 18:07.59 | nvz | if you want something to appear on the console prior to login but after the system is all up and running you use systemd and the /etc/issue file |
| 18:08.15 | mihi | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:08.25 | unborn | hi all, I have one stupid one.. before I was able to put password to zip files but now I cannot.. what package I am missing please? |
| 18:08.27 | unborn | - thanks |
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| 18:09.23 | mihi | you could also chvt to an unused tty (of your configuration) and then immediately print your message. But include information how to get back |
| 18:09.36 | nvz | really the only reason I can see they dont wanna use /etc/issue is they want to show the output of a script in realtime while its running on reboot without being logged in |
| 18:10.03 | tete_ | it is "realtime", i do some stuff and want to print some echoes |
| 18:10.23 | tete_ | like "going to set up network...", doing that, and then printing "done.", then "setting up some fancy bash colors" ... |
| 18:10.37 | nvz | can't do anything bash, bash isnt running |
| 18:10.37 | tete_ | and at the end a shutdown |
| 18:10.48 | nvz | you're not logged in :P |
| 18:10.49 | b_jonas | hi. for some reason X is loading the fbdev and vesa drivers, not the intel drivers, despite that the xserver-xorg-video-intel package is installed |
| 18:11.03 | tete_ | i mean modifiying the profile of root |
| 18:11.10 | tete_ | of course i can not see the colors |
| 18:11.25 | tete_ | but when its finished and i log in the bash prompt should be different |
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| 18:11.41 | tete_ | thanks, guess thats enough information to continue |
| 18:11.50 | b_jonas | why is that? |
| 18:12.30 | nvz | tete_: if you'd described all that to begin with I'd have told you to ditch cron and basically everything you're doing and use systemd |
| 18:12.41 | mihi | tete_, so probably the "correct way" would be to do the second half in a systemd unit that uninstalls itself. So it will run amids the other boot messages (if they are not hidden). |
| 18:13.06 | nvz | tete_: what you need is to have whatever is running the first time create a systemd unit.. because a systemd unit can do the kind of thing you describe, its what does all the stuff you see at boot anyhow |
| 18:13.28 | nvz | then you need to have it all tear itself down obviously cause its a one-time thing |
| 18:13.32 | tete_ | hm... the documentation from our teacher says "cron" |
| 18:13.39 | tete_ | not sure if i can use systemd |
| 18:13.48 | mihi | tete_, is that a homework assignment? |
| 18:13.51 | nvz | @.@ |
| 18:14.12 | tete_ | not really - this is even not homework, well, its optional homework |
| 18:14.16 | mihi | lots of people don't mind helping with that, but please state it upfront if it is. |
| 18:14.36 | tete_ | my english is not the best so its hard for me to tell what i mean ;) |
| 18:15.05 | tete_ | the homework was to execute some scripts and if we have some more time and interest, we can try to automate as much as possible |
| 18:15.23 | mihi | if it is not homework but your own learning, first thing to learn is to ditch everything in the documentation of your teacher. :D |
| 18:15.54 | mihi | In my experience, they are either outdated or overcomplicated, but never are the best way to do it |
| 18:16.47 | tete_ | but with cron it works on devuan too :P |
| 18:17.33 | mihi | there are scripts in debian to do this regardless of init system. For sysvinit you would have to drop some script in /etc/rcS (I believe) |
| 18:17.38 | tete_ | i'll take a look at systemd, maybe thats even better and then i can show the cron stuff as alternative and the better way with systemd |
| 18:17.54 | unborn | uh thanks all.. I found it.. it works in terminal :) |
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| 18:56.17 | unborn | answer was gpg :) |
| 18:56.35 | oxek | anybody using the backported libreoffice 7.0 in debian stable? Noticed anything broken? |
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| 19:04.53 | sney | I'm using it in bullseye and tbh I don't notice a practical difference between it and 6.1. there was one weird behavior after a crash but otherwise it's still the same ol libreoffice |
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| 19:14.26 | Aurora_v_kosmose | Is there some way to force a program to swap once it uses more than a given amount of memory? Like say, MaxRam=3G |
| 19:15.11 | Aurora_v_kosmose | Systemd slices don't seem to have that level of granularity |
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| 19:18.53 | diverdude | whats wrong with this command? addgroup -S app && adduser -S app -G app |
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| 19:21.24 | tmroland | its wrong |
| 19:21.41 | tmroland | theres no adduser command on most distros |
| 19:21.42 | diverdude | tmroland: what should it look like to be correct? |
| 19:21.44 | tmroland | and second of all, -S is for shell |
| 19:21.53 | tmroland | u want useradd |
| 19:21.55 | tmroland | and groupadd |
| 19:22.00 | tmroland | and if u wanna add a user to a group see usermod |
| 19:22.03 | tmroland | usermod -G |
| 19:22.11 | jmcnaught | Debian has adduser/addgroup. |
| 19:22.17 | tmroland | some distros have |
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| 19:22.30 | tmroland | but its jsut a simplified command for useradd |
| 19:22.32 | tmroland | script |
| 19:22.34 | tmroland | or something |
| 19:22.48 | tmroland | at the most basic level and universal level its useradd/groupadd/usermod/groupmod |
| 19:23.20 | tomreyn | yes, but on debian people should prefer adduser/addgroup, unless they know exactly how to use those directly. |
| 19:23.32 | tmroland | depends on the user what they prefer i guess |
| 19:23.41 | tmroland | adduser is more easy |
| 19:23.43 | tmroland | for sure |
| 19:24.05 | diverdude | hmm ok... its a command made for python:3.8.3-alpine `addgroup -S app && adduser -S app -G app` but i wanted to make a similar for debian slim-buster |
| 19:24.09 | tmroland | then again debian is a bit unconventional in some means |
| 19:24.15 | tmroland | like with uname -v |
| 19:24.18 | tmroland | returning the real kernel version |
| 19:24.20 | tmroland | instead of uname -r |
| 19:24.39 | tmroland | yes, its python script |
| 19:24.44 | tmroland | like i guessed |
| 19:24.44 | jmcnaught | diverdude: add a system group: "addgroup --system groupname" add a user to the group: "adduser username groupname" |
| 19:25.51 | diverdude | So translation could be like this? addgroup -S app && adduser -S app -G app => addgroup --system app && adduser app app |
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| 19:30.53 | jmcnaught | diverdude: looks okay |
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| 19:33.53 | diverdude | jmcnaught: hmm i think adduser app app will not add a systemuser, will it? |
| 19:35.47 | jmcnaught | diverdude: "adduser --system username" also check the man page for adduser |
| 19:35.58 | diverdude | thx |
| 19:36.57 | jmcnaught | diverdude: there are more options like --home that you might want to use too |
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| 19:52.38 | diverdude | there is no libq library on slim-buster? |
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| 19:54.54 | diverdude | ah...its libpq5 |
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| 20:56.13 | cipherize | tmroland: uname -r works the same on Debian as it does on any distro. |
| 20:58.55 | tmroland | no it does not |
| 20:59.06 | tmroland | the real version of the running kernel can only be checked with uname -v |
| 20:59.28 | tmroland | im talking on sid |
| 20:59.37 | tmroland | each time i did a kernel update , the two differed |
| 20:59.50 | tmroland | ie. uname -v would return .5.7.0-17 or something |
| 20:59.55 | tmroland | and uname -r would return.5.7.17 |
| 21:00.00 | tmroland | and its build date |
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| 21:00.39 | tmroland | the other way around actually, uname -v would return exact kernel version |
| 21:00.44 | tmroland | while uname -r only major minor |
| 21:01.03 | cipherize | Okay. Show me the output of uname -v and uname -r. Exactly. |
| 21:01.15 | tmroland | i dont have sid installed any longer, but once i do i will |
| 21:01.20 | tmroland | last i had it was weeks ago |
| 21:01.24 | tmroland | and it held true |
| 21:01.28 | tmroland | i came here asking about it, because it semt really weird |
| 21:01.33 | tmroland | and one guy here said thats how it is |
| 21:01.41 | tmroland | and another guy said he didnt even know |
| 21:02.10 | tmroland | on any other distro uname -r returns exact kernel version and uname -v only returns build date |
| 21:02.50 | tmroland | when i asked why its different on debian, guy said i mustve been not using debian in the last 2 decades if i didnt notice that difference |
| 21:03.04 | tmroland | after, another one said he didnt notice it either |
| 21:03.43 | cipherize | I'm going to prove a point, here. Give me a moment. |
| 21:05.25 | cipherize | The content of uname -r and uname -v are to some extent determined by the distro, but they all report similar information, even if the format is different. |
| 21:06.44 | joepublic | uname -v on this machine returns just the date, no version. |
| 21:07.14 | joepublic | it's probably not representative of all, since it's testing + home rolled kernel |
| 21:07.51 | cipherize | http://ix.io/2y92 |
| 21:08.20 | cipherize | uname -r is generally the package version ("release"), and uname -v is build information. |
| 21:09.06 | cipherize | Distros without versioned packages (e.g. Arch) won't need to reflect version data in uname -v, as its already presented in uname -r. |
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| 21:11.34 | cipherize | The fact that different information is presented in uname -r/v on Debian is probably a consequence of how packages and versions are managed by apt. Any distro using apt probably presents data that way. Most other distros that I know of reflect true versions in package names. |
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| 21:19.58 | hexorg | In htop, a lot of my GUI appls have threads named "disk$N" or "shN" or "shloN"... anyone knows what those are? |
| 21:21.40 | tmroland | yes but the thing is |
| 21:21.48 | tmroland | uname -r which shows exact kernel version on ALL Distros i ever used |
| 21:22.01 | tmroland | on debian sid it shown 5.7.0-wahtever |
| 21:22.09 | tmroland | and i did like 2 kernel updates on 2 different ocassions |
| 21:22.12 | tmroland | and uname -r was exactly the same |
| 21:22.16 | tmroland | and then i entered uname -v later on |
| 21:22.24 | tmroland | and it shown the current running kernel as 5.7.17-whatever |
| 21:22.34 | tmroland | so there you go, the actual running kernel version reported in uname -v |
| 21:22.56 | tmroland | oh it did bump 5.7.0 from -2 to -3 to -4 |
| 21:23.02 | tmroland | but still 5.7.0 |
| 21:23.05 | tmroland | and uname -v 5.7.17 |
| 21:23.35 | tmroland | so it might be using package versioning or whatever but this uname -v/-r mess is confusing for ppl coming from other distros |
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| 21:28.21 | cipherize | tmroland: Sounds like you're making mountains out of molehills, frankly. |
| 21:28.47 | tmroland | just explaining concretely what i meant |
| 21:28.52 | tmroland | to finish the subject |
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| 21:29.09 | joepublic | Good non-debian-specific thing to know is that uname responses vary among operating systems, and it's a great idea to check uname -a |
| 21:29.24 | tmroland | not bothered by that difference honestly |
| 21:29.45 | tmroland | its as good a distro as ever |
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| 21:58.06 | jim | hi, |
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| 22:05.14 | jim | I'm trying to get v4l2loopback to load at boot... I installed a later github version, and did make install to place it in /lib/modules/some5.6uname-r |
| 22:05.45 | jim | what mechanism do packaged versions use to load it at boot? |
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| 22:06.55 | S3xyL1nux | and i thought jim knows everything |
| 22:07.29 | phogg | jim: you have to rebuild your initrd |
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| 22:07.57 | jim | does it have to load that early? |
| 22:08.27 | phogg | maybe not. Otherwise it's just /etc/modules |
| 22:08.50 | jim | let me see what that contains |
| 22:09.04 | phogg | jim: also: man 5 modules |
| 22:09.47 | jim | oh, to add parameters for the module |
| 22:09.59 | jim | ok, I'll do that |
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| 22:12.09 | jim | ok, pretty simple/short |
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| 22:13.07 | phogg | the best things are simple; complex is an indication of an impedance mismatch in the design |
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| 22:17.11 | jim | just add some capacitors, should change the impedance |
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| 23:08.17 | chandoo | hi i have issues with docker |
| 23:08.34 | chandoo | I am trying to change /var/lib/docker to other folder |
| 23:08.51 | chandoo | i followed this link https://linuxconfig.org/how-to-move-docker-s-default-var-lib-docker-to-another-directory-on-ubuntu-debian-linux |
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| 23:09.34 | chandoo | for some reason docker is not honoring the /etc/docker/daemon.json changes |
| 23:09.38 | chandoo | for data-root |
| 23:09.50 | chandoo | any help is appreciated |
| 23:11.20 | sney | did you confirm that the docker service was stopped and that your config changes hadn't been overwritten, before starting the service again? |
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| 23:28.23 | chandoo | sney, yes |
| 23:28.53 | chandoo | sney, I see this "failed to start daemon: error while opening volume store metadata database: invalid argument |
| 23:28.54 | chandoo | " |
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| 23:29.02 | sney | that howto is from 2 years ago so it might be outdated. ask in #docker |
| 23:29.19 | chandoo | yes it is |
| 23:29.36 | chandoo | i am moving from local filesystem to zfs dataset |
| 23:29.46 | chandoo | but it was mounted as regular file |
| 23:29.51 | chandoo | but it was mounted as regular filesystem |
| 23:29.55 | chandoo | sney, okay thanks |
| 23:30.24 | sney | afaik docker can't tell the difference between the filesystems its dirs are on, as long as they support normal permissions, etc. |
| 23:30.46 | sney | but if you're working with zfs then you could set the dataset mount point to /var/lib/docker and let the daemon keep its defaults. |
| 23:31.23 | chandoo | i tried symlink but i am facing issue |
| 23:31.38 | chandoo | after symlink if i do /var/lib/docker/ it works |
| 23:31.40 | sney | not symlink, set the actual mount point |
| 23:31.50 | chandoo | with out the tailing / it is not |
| 23:32.04 | chandoo | sney, it was already mounted |
| 23:32.17 | chandoo | you mean create as mount in fstab |
| 23:32.44 | chandoo | default are working fine |
| 23:33.12 | chandoo | the moment i specify data-root to other folder it is failing opening volume |
| 23:33.29 | sney | no, like 'zfs set mountpoint=/var/lib/docker tank/datasetgoeshere', a normal zfs thing. |
| 23:33.40 | sney | then when you zfs mount -a (or reboot) it just comes up in that spot |
| 23:34.24 | sney | this is pretty standard zfs usage so it's weird that you wouldn't know about it if you're using zfs. but I guess all manuals have been replaced with stackexchange. |
| 23:35.34 | chandoo | sney, i know, |
| 23:35.40 | chandoo | let me explain |
| 23:35.49 | chandoo | i am running this in a vm |
| 23:36.13 | chandoo | zfs is created outside of the vm and attached to the vm |
| 23:36.21 | sney | delegate dataset? |
| 23:36.24 | chandoo | so no zfs datasets available in the vm |
| 23:37.21 | chandoo | yes it is getting delegated to vm, and vm sees it as just as a filesystem mounted |
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| 23:37.58 | sney | no, delegate datasets is a zfs thing where the guest can see it too. I guess you're on a different kind of hypervisor. better ask the original question in #docker then |
| 23:38.17 | chandoo | i am using proxmox |
| 23:38.22 | chandoo | okay |
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