IRC log for #bzflag on 20180212

00:49.20macsformeI think he was asking how they handled the move, not how many projects moved away
00:49.58allejo^
00:53.42blast007ah, sorry, read 'have' and 'many'  :)
00:53.44blast007as*
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01:21.02*** topic/#bzflag is https://BZFlag.org || http://ohloh.net/p/bzflag || https://bzflag.org/help || Channel Logs: http://infobot.rikers.org/%23bzflag/ || 2.4.12 released! https://forums.bzflag.org/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=19720
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04:20.04The_Noahus there a high def model of a BZFlag tank?
04:20.07The_Noahis*
04:22.54allejodefine "high def"
04:26.52The_Noahbetter then the one that comes with BZFlag
04:27.01The_Noahwheels would be really nice
04:27.44allejooh yea that one. turns out the wheels are hard coded into the game
04:28.03allejothe closest you'll get is the .obj that's in the git repo
04:28.04The_Noahoh ok
04:28.14The_Noahim using that :D
04:28.21allejounless you create the wheels yourself or extract it from the source code
04:30.47The_Noahdidnt JeffM make a C++ opengl to obj?
04:33.22allejoyah. though i'll let him answer that since I don't know anything about it
04:33.57The_NoahJeffM: could your C++ OpenGL to obj make a tank model with the wheels?
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15:09.25The_NoahBulletCatcher: i looked in the COPYING file and didnt find anything about the icon
15:50.48JeffMThe_Noah: the icon is a file, its subject to the license in copying like all other files
15:52.59JeffMand yes, at one point i had code that would write an OBJ from GL code,
15:53.52JeffMand no, that is the only tank there is. BZFlag is old
15:54.16JeffMthe origonal tank was hardcoded in GL, there is no actual model file that was shrunk down for game use.
15:54.36JeffMI have modeled a different tank that is more detailed for use in a future version.
16:11.05The_Noahfor the icon, i like plain english. can i use it in my app or not?
16:11.26The_Noahand for the model, do you have it on the forums? and if you dont can you put it up? (or PM me)
16:42.30JeffMyou can use the icon if your project meets the licnese requirements
16:42.40JeffMwill your project be open source under the lGPL?
16:43.06JeffMwhat model? the old one or the new one?
16:43.12JeffMthe old one is on the wiki
16:47.15The_Noah"will your project be open source under the lGPL?" - its closed source
16:47.25The_Noah"what model? the old one or the new one?" - the new one
16:47.30JeffMthen no, you can not use the icon or any assets/resources from bzflag
16:47.56JeffMI recomend you open source it, it will give you a lot more resources to pull from.
16:48.05JeffMand a lot more help
16:48.24JeffMpeople here will probably not be willing to assist with a closed source project.
16:48.53JeffMlibBZFlag does nearly all of what you need, but you can't use it if you are close source.
16:49.09JeffMyou can't even use the model
16:50.57The_Noahthe model is for a wallpaper im making :P
16:51.03JeffMdon't care
16:51.17The_Noah"I recomend you open source it, it will give you a lot more resources to pull from." - can it be GPL? or does it have to be lGPL?
16:51.43JeffMI recomend lGPL, it isn't quite as viral as full GPL
16:51.47JeffMthe protections are the same.
16:52.07JeffMbut yes you could make your proejct GPL, it would still limit you on some things
16:52.34JeffMlike libBZFlag is APL and I don't think that's fully GPL compatible, but it's lGPL compatible.
16:52.56The_Noahok, so should i just copy COPYING.LGPL and put it in my code?
16:53.05JeffMand understand what it means
16:53.13JeffMbut yes that is one way to grant the license
16:53.31JeffMyou also need to publish the code to anyone that asks once you have a binary version
16:53.33The_Noahok, im new to all the licensing stuff
16:53.50The_Noahwould putting it up on Github work instead?
16:53.52JeffMit's not that hard, you just have to pay a little attention
16:53.59JeffMyes that is a form of publishing
16:54.05JeffMthat is why so many people use github
16:54.05The_Noahok
16:54.21JeffMare you old enough to engage in a contract in your local area?
16:54.41The_Noahwhat do you mean?
16:55.01The_Noahwhat type of contract?
16:55.12JeffMin most places minors can not engage in a contract on there own, a licese is a type of contract.
16:55.40JeffM<PROTECTED>
16:55.54The_Noahand i cant do that if im a minor?
16:56.26JeffMgeneraly minors are not allowed to engage in contracts, the parrents have to be involved
16:56.35JeffMbut it depends where you are.
16:56.37The_Noahin what way?
16:56.50The_Noahand is it braking the law if you do that?
16:56.57JeffMno
16:57.04JeffMbut it makes your license unenforaceable
16:57.13JeffMand could cause problems publishing your code.
16:57.28JeffMbasicly your license would be invalid because you would not have the ability to grant it.
16:57.34JeffMso you could get sued
16:57.36JeffMyou won't be
16:57.46JeffMbut you should just uderstand what you are doing.
16:58.14The_Noahwhat would a minor have to do?
16:58.45JeffMgeneraly I recomend them just get a parrent's permission first, that way if someothing bad happens they know that it happened.
16:58.50JeffMthen nobody is lying.
16:59.07JeffMI have never seen it be an issue
16:59.25JeffMbut mostly you just want to make sure that you arn't accused of stealing anyone else's work
16:59.47The_Noahso....
17:00.09JeffMminors under 13 have more restrictions too
17:02.40The_Noahdo i need to worry about it? and whats the worst that could happen?
17:03.17JeffMare you over 13?
17:03.37The_Noahyes
17:03.39JeffMthe under 13 stuff DOES invlove breaking the law :)
17:03.53The_Noahthats sad
17:04.02JeffMit's for the child's protection
17:04.08JeffMto keep sites from exploiting them
17:04.23The_Noahi guess thats good
17:04.30JeffMa site or a system needs permission from a parrent to store data for childern under 13
17:04.48JeffMit's not a law against  the child, it's a law against the websites and services.
17:05.06JeffMwell like I said, I've never seen an issue, but you should just be aware of it.
17:05.21JeffMall I can do is give you info :)
17:06.50The_Noahso, if im a minor, people arnt bound by the COPYING.LGPL file and can do whatever they want?
17:07.32JeffMno, the opposite
17:07.37JeffMthey can't do anything
17:07.47JeffMcopyright default is NO RIGHTS, not ALL RIGHTS
17:07.48The_Noahoh
17:07.51JeffMthat's why you get into trouble
17:08.16JeffMIf you use some LGPL code, it requires that your changes to it also have the LGPL restrictions
17:08.36JeffMbut if you are not able to grant a license, you are in volation of the LGPL because you were not able to grant any rights
17:08.37The_Noahi would just have LGPL to use the icon
17:08.41JeffMyes
17:08.51JeffMthat is a given regardless of your age.
17:09.14The_Noahwould just using my own icon get around all of this?
17:09.30The_Noahand having it closed-source
17:09.45JeffMas for the name, it is not trademarked, and not really subject to copyright, and yes it's ok for you to use it, but if you are making a tool, we ask that you make it clear it's a tool that works WITH BZFlag and that your project is not bzflag itself.
17:09.54JeffMfor the icon, sure
17:10.02JeffMbut you are going to run into other issues
17:10.08The_Noah:(
17:10.13JeffMif you go closed source, you can't use any code from bzflag
17:10.19JeffMyou can't copy and paste anything
17:10.25JeffMyou'd have to write it all yourself
17:10.31The_Noahi am anyway
17:10.33The_Noahits a tool
17:10.42JeffMand you already know the networking protocoll?
17:10.54The_Noahi have the base code of my app working
17:11.03The_Noahand no, but i have ways around that :D
17:11.04JeffMsure, you have a APK that loads.. great.
17:11.16JeffMalso nobody is going to help you if it's closed.
17:11.25JeffMalso nobody can legaly use it
17:11.28The_Noahi dont need help, its just a simple tool
17:11.33The_NoahWHAT?
17:11.39JeffMyou can't grant useage rights
17:11.46JeffMeven for the binary
17:11.50JeffM<PROTECTED>
17:11.55JeffMfor it to be useable.
17:12.04The_Noahi was planning to put it on Google Play
17:12.17JeffMand they will require some kind of useage license
17:12.25JeffM<PROTECTED>
17:12.47JeffMso what are you going to use for buffer packing?
17:13.12JeffMI've recently done everything you say you are going to do, so I'm curious about your method.
17:15.21The_Noah"I've recently done everything you say you are going to do, so I'm curious about your method." - what?
17:16.36The_Noahwhat did i say im going to do?
17:17.14JeffMrepimpolmented the bzflag protocol allong with the list services inteface to a different platform
17:17.29JeffMpart of my unit tests was a tool that list servers and players and stuff.
17:18.53The_Noahheres what im doing. on my server, i have 2 programs running. the first gets the online servers from the offical list and saves them to a file. the second uses that list and uses BZFQuery(.py) to get infomation about that map and saves it to a file. then my app simply parses and displays that file
17:19.36JeffMoh god
17:19.48JeffMso yeah that's just what strayer's site does
17:19.56JeffMhope your site never goes down ;)
17:20.03JeffMyou've got several points of failure
17:20.30JeffMwhy do you even need an app? why not just make a page?
17:20.42The_Noahi have a page!
17:20.52JeffMwhat does the app offer that the page doesn't?
17:21.00The_Noahbecause the app loads ALOT faster then the page, and i need practice with app development
17:21.06JeffMahh
17:21.25The_Noahand the app updates live, the page doesnt (yet)
17:21.51The_Noah"you've got several points of failure" i have stuff to make sure its not a problem
17:22.05JeffMhow many redudnant servers do you have in your cluster then?
17:22.10The_Noah1
17:22.12JeffMwhat database backend are you using?
17:22.20The_Noahi have software to make sure the programs are always running
17:22.23JeffMsooooo if that machine goes down what is your plan?
17:22.25The_Noahplain text :D
17:22.29JeffMand if the hardware dies?
17:22.44The_Noahi dont have the resources to have a cluster
17:22.54JeffMthen you have no redundancy
17:22.56The_Noahuse a different computer
17:23.02The_Noahright
17:23.05JeffMon your cable modem?
17:23.12The_Noahi have software to make sure the programs are running
17:23.17The_Noahwhat?
17:23.26JeffMoh to be so young and optimistic again :)
17:23.55The_Noahsomeday i will build a nice server, but not anytime soon :(
17:24.08JeffMmost people don't build them, they rent them
17:24.12JeffMway cheaper
17:24.15The_Noahi build them :)
17:24.32JeffMwhat is your upload bandwith?
17:24.54The_Noahidk
17:25.23JeffMkinda important to know if you are going to be hosting things
17:25.59The_Noahis upload bandwidth limited by your ISP or router?
17:26.29JeffMISP
17:26.47The_Noahill try to contact them
17:26.59JeffMjust run a speed test man
17:27.23The_Noahthat speed? 5Mb/s
17:27.27The_Noahthe*
17:27.32JeffMthere are 2 numbers up and down
17:27.45JeffMif they are different, the bigger number is down
17:27.55The_Noahhere are the numbers.....
17:28.28The_Noahpaid for: 50Mb/s Down, 5Mb/s Up. speed test: 70Mb/s Down, 3-4MB/s Up
17:28.46JeffMyeah normal cable modem speeds
17:29.13JeffMjust be aware your upsream bandwith is what is used to host from your house out to other people
17:29.18JeffMand that is the smaller number.
17:29.35The_Noahi know
17:29.46The_Noahmy ISP doesnt offer many options
17:29.58JeffMmany don't
17:30.07JeffMthats why people use datacenters and VPS
17:30.15The_NoahGoogle fiber might come to my area :P
17:30.24The_Noahya...
17:31.02JeffMfiber is nice
17:31.06JeffMI get 150 both ways
17:31.42The_NoahNICE
17:31.49The_Noahits too costy for me :D
17:32.00JeffM60$
17:32.06JeffMbut I still use a VPS for hosting anything.
17:32.35The_Noahnice
17:32.45The_Noahi pay $30 for my slow internet
17:33.49The_Noahmy ISPs website has very few details.....
17:34.55The_Noahmaybe ill just wait for Google fiber
17:34.57JeffMhome stuff isn't made for hosting so they don't need options.
17:35.05JeffMVPSs are cheap
17:35.28The_Noah(if you dont mind) what do you pay for yours?
17:36.08JeffM12$
17:36.45The_Noahwhat provider?
17:36.57The_Noahi was searching and found $20 for the cheapest
17:37.10JeffMI have a few
17:37.15JeffMalpharacks was one I think
17:37.56JeffMlooks like BudgetVM was the other
17:38.16JeffMI think alpharacks had one fro 10$ a year but I added 2$ to get more bandwith.
17:38.16The_Noahis it Windows or Linux?
17:38.19JeffMliunux
17:38.32JeffMwindows VPS is like 40$ish a year
17:39.15The_NoahBudgetVM says starting at $29/month
17:39.44JeffMyou need to look past the first page man :)
17:40.10JeffMhttps://www.budgetvm.com/openvz-linux-vps.php
17:40.42The_Noahwhats the network speeds?
17:40.49JeffMhttps://lowendbox.com/  often list good dieals
17:40.59JeffMI think both of mine are 1 gig both ways
17:41.11JeffMmost are a gig or 100 meg both ways
17:41.13The_Noahoh there it says
17:41.16JeffMI've never seen less
17:41.28The_Noahit says 100Mb
17:41.36JeffMthen there ya go
17:42.21The_Noahthats a nice website!
17:43.02The_NoahBudgetVM: does it have transfer limits?
17:43.11JeffMoh all of them will
17:43.23JeffMbut it'll be well above what most people do
17:43.36JeffMunless you are planing on using to serve torrents and crap
17:45.36The_Noahi use a lot of data (no clue why) its not enough for me
17:45.48JeffMriiiiiggghhhttttttt......
17:46.52The_Noahi do, no clue why
17:46.56The_Noahi have a monitor
17:47.52The_Noahis the limit for up, down, or both compined?
17:48.06JeffMdepends on the provider
17:48.14The_Noahcombined*
17:48.15JeffMfor many it's both
17:50.38The_Noahya i use way too much data
17:50.46The_Noahi need unlimited/A LOT
17:51.08JeffMwhy are your project so inefficient?
17:51.15The_Noahidk
17:51.24JeffMprobalby be a good idea to find out
17:51.46The_Noah(maybe thats why my internet is slower)
17:52.21The_Noahi use about 500MB/day
17:52.42The_Noahthats a bad calculation, but its close enough for me
17:56.21JeffMfor you just browsing and stuff or hosting?
17:56.33JeffMyou know that a VPS is just for hosting
17:56.37JeffMnot for your day to day stuff.
17:57.03The_Noahfor hosting
17:57.08The_Noahyes, i know what a VPS is for
17:57.15JeffMwho the hell reads 500 megs a day from you?
18:00.57The_Noahlawl
18:01.11The_Noahits prob mostly servers sending replays to BZFQuery
18:03.15JeffMhow often do you hit the list servert?
18:03.36JeffMor walk the game list?
18:04.23The_Noahthe list server is downloaded every 5 minutes, and each server is quered as fast as my server can go
18:04.51The_Noahwhich takes a few minutes
18:07.08The_Noahdoes the Python BZFQuery just call the Perl BZFQuery??
18:07.52The_Noahnevermind
18:14.49The_Noahso can you send me the advanced model on the forums?
18:19.43blast007The_Noah: dunno if this was already mentioned, but most residential ISPs prohibit hosting servers (and most even block the usual web and email ports)
18:20.17The_Noahi know, mine doesnt
18:22.17blast007Spectrum does, afaik
18:22.35The_Noahdoes what?
18:22.40blast007prohibit it
18:22.58The_Noahoh
18:24.30blast007https://www.spectrum.com/policies/residential-terms.html   "SPECTRUM INTERNET ACCEPTABLE USE POLICY"  section 2 there prohibits using a residential internet connection for hosting any servers that go beyond personal, residential use
18:25.14The_Noahya i just read that
18:25.45The_Noahwell, ive had it up forever and they havnt shut me down, and if they do, they will just lose a customer
18:25.58blast007now.. will it be a problem?  probably not.  but it'd be a silly reason to have your Internet services terminated.
18:26.00The_Noahcustomer*
18:26.16blast007do you think they care about one customer?  :)
18:26.20The_Noahi aint switching internet AGAIN
18:26.28The_Noahnope, and thats why its fine
18:26.40blast007I mean, about losing one customer
18:26.45The_Noahoh
18:26.49The_Noahnope
18:27.35The_Noah"section 2 there prohibits using a residential internet connection for hosting any servers that go beyond personal" its for personal use
18:27.55blast007no, you're going to be using it for an app that you distribute to the public
18:29.32The_Noahnot only for that
18:29.46The_Noahim just now reading Spectrums terms, and they SUCK
18:30.02The_Noahtime to find ANOTHER ISP..... :'(
18:30.32blast007or stop trying to treat a residential connection as a business or enterprise class line
18:30.48blast007a $5/month VPS would be a far better option for this
18:31.30The_NoahNO! NO VPS!
18:31.33blast007then you'd have a static IPv4 and IPv6, reliable power/network
18:31.34blast007why?
18:31.35JeffMthen you are a fool
18:31.46JeffMbecause his mom won't pay for it
18:31.50The_Noahno
18:31.55The_Noahbecause i do not want one
18:32.03blast007why?
18:32.18The_Noahif i have bad stuff, then let me have it and stop telling me to get something else
18:32.51JeffMI just hope the list server doesn't block you for spaming it
18:33.00The_Noahwill it?
18:33.04blast007meh, every 5 minutes isn't much
18:34.51The_Noahok, i think it did in the past when i made requests to it more often
18:41.25JeffMwhy not just have the app query the server?
18:42.46The_Noahbecause it would take too long, and is there a query for Java?
18:42.57JeffMyes java can query a web address
18:43.10JeffMit'll take the same time hitting your server....
18:43.19JeffMboth are still an internet hit
18:43.27JeffMthe list query is trivial
18:43.58JeffMare you going to actually create something new or just duct-tape things other people made together?
18:44.00The_Noahbut i dont want the app when it opens to start quering all the servers, it would take several minutes
18:44.10JeffMthen don't
18:44.16JeffMhave them specifcy what server to query
18:44.17blast007why would the app be querying servers?
18:44.25JeffMwhat is the purpose of the app?
18:44.28JeffMfriend finder?
18:44.33The_Noahmake something new (someone else could have made it but im not using pre-made stuff other then BZFQuery)
18:44.42blast007please don't make an app that just spams connections to the game servers
18:44.56JeffMhe's having his server do it
18:45.03blast007that's not what he just said though
18:45.09The_Noahthe app is to provide live status of all servers, number of players, whos online, there scores etc.
18:45.11blast007"i dont want the app when it opens to start quering all the servers"
18:45.26JeffMthat was in responce to me asking why he needs his server
18:45.36blast007oh
18:45.47JeffMThe_Noah: you know all that data is already here right? http://bzstats.strayer.de/servers/?lang=en
18:46.09The_Noahyes, but i dont want to parse a HTML site
18:46.21JeffMask them for an API
18:46.32JeffMlike a nice restful API, I bet he'd do it
18:46.35The_Noahand there data isnt as up-to-date as mine
18:46.36JeffMstrayer is cool
18:46.49JeffMit does the same polls
18:46.55The_Noahim sticking with my own system
18:47.00JeffMit's probably just in on a different timer
18:47.02The_Noahya, but not as often
18:47.05JeffMof course you are
18:47.22JeffMprays for push-stats
18:47.57blast007"To limit network traffic, server stress and the amount of data stored, the active BZFlag servers are queried every 5 minutes."   http://bzstats.strayer.de/faqs/?lang=en
18:49.30blast007The_Noah: you gunna run the server off an old laptop?
18:49.46The_Noahno
18:49.49The_Noahi already have a server
18:50.23blast007I have an old server I'd sell ya.  It would only cost like $200 to ship it.  :P
18:51.17blast007need to get rid of it... not really all that useful anymore... it's a quad-socket Pentium III Xeon
18:51.38The_Noahnice
18:51.46The_Noahmy server is trash, but it works
18:51.49blast007it's a *really* good paperweight though - those papers ain't going anywhere
18:51.55The_Noahlawl
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