IRC log for #bzflag on 20170426

00:09.44*** join/#bzflag zaa (~lewalters@192.112.102.252)
00:12.06BulletCatcherhttps://wiki.bzflag.org/Jargon has common and not-so-common words and phrases.
00:16.34BulletCatcherBold, italics, or other font variations could be used to distinguish literal text from placeholders.
00:21.27*** join/#bzflag infobot (ibot@rikers.org)
00:21.27*** topic/#bzflag is https://BZFlag.org || http://ohloh.net/p/bzflag || https://bzflag.org/help || Channel Logs: http://infobot.rikers.org/%23bzflag/ || 2.4.10 released! https://forums.bzflag.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=19401
00:21.27*** mode/#bzflag [+v infobot] by ChanServ
01:54.30*** join/#bzflag BZnotify (~BZnotify@192.30.252.42)
01:54.30BZnotify[13bzflag.org] 15blast007 pushed 2 new commits to 06master: 02https://git.io/v9YYN
01:54.30BZnotify13bzflag.org/06master 140e5448e 15Scott Wichser: Document the /flag and /veto commands.
01:54.30BZnotify13bzflag.org/06master 147d6da6e 15Scott Wichser: Fix up formatting of code blocks.
01:54.30*** part/#bzflag BZnotify (~BZnotify@192.30.252.42)
01:54.40*** part/#bzflag zaa (~lewalters@192.112.102.252)
02:05.51*** join/#bzflag llrr (~llrr@203.220.116.215)
02:23.56*** join/#bzflag trepan (~trepan@s72-38-252-52.static.datacom.cgocable.net)
02:33.41*** join/#bzflag BZnotify (~BZnotify@192.30.252.42)
02:33.41BZnotify[13bzflag.org] 15blast007 pushed 2 new commits to 06master: 02https://git.io/v9Y3F
02:33.41BZnotify13bzflag.org/06master 143105d58 15Scott Wichser: Document /playerlist, /kick, /mute, and /unmute
02:33.41BZnotify13bzflag.org/06master 1446a8d93 15Scott Wichser: Add a bit more to the /flag command documentation.
02:33.41*** part/#bzflag BZnotify (~BZnotify@192.30.252.42)
03:35.14*** join/#bzflag zaa (~lewalters@192.112.102.252)
05:08.13*** part/#bzflag zaa (~lewalters@192.112.102.252)
05:59.47*** join/#bzflag I_Died_Once (~I_Died_On@unaffiliated/idiedonce/x-1828535)
08:18.58*** join/#bzflag llrr (~llrr@203.220.116.215)
10:53.20blast007huh.. why does /ban and /idban require a duration and a reason but /hostban does not .....
11:15.39*** join/#bzflag BZnotify (~BZnotify@192.30.252.45)
11:15.39BZnotify[13bzflag.org] 15blast007 pushed 1 new commit to 06master: 02https://git.io/v9YpC
11:15.39BZnotify13bzflag.org/06master 1440f2b85 15Scott Wichser: Document the /ban command.
11:15.39*** part/#bzflag BZnotify (~BZnotify@192.30.252.45)
11:33.09*** join/#bzflag nadir (uid134094@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kzosgoiakwhzbnow)
12:30.12*** join/#bzflag joevano (~joevano@bzflag/developer/JoeVano)
12:30.12*** mode/#bzflag [+v joevano] by ChanServ
14:51.06allejoblast007, you make it sound like things in this game are actually consistent
15:38.31blast007guess the question really is - can anything think of a reason I shouldn't make hostban require a duration and a ban reason?
15:45.54allejodeclares himself a "thing"
15:46.32allejonope, I'd be in favor of consistency. a hostban should have both a duration and a reason anyways
16:14.06kierrahmmm, i think i have always put duration/reason
16:30.50blast007me as well, since I didn't realize it wasn't required for hostbans
16:31.08blast007wasn't until I was documenting everything that I noticed :)
18:16.45JeffMI poked around the API, a domination game mode plugin would be relative simple
18:17.24JeffMDoes team ffa have a team score normally?
18:20.17*** join/#bzflag nafta_bz (~nafta_bz_@host34-182-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it)
18:20.57*** join/#bzflag nafta_bz_ (~nafta_bz_@host34-182-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it)
18:21.01*** part/#bzflag nafta_bz_ (~nafta_bz_@host34-182-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it)
18:21.45*** join/#bzflag nafta_bz_ (~nafta_bz_@host34-182-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it)
18:22.43*** join/#bzflag gmaggior (~gmaggior_@host34-182-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it)
18:22.48*** part/#bzflag gmaggior (~gmaggior_@host34-182-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it)
18:35.36blast007yes, it does, based on the combined player scores
18:36.09blast007not sure if the client or the server calculates it though
18:45.38allejoshould be the server, no? otherwise new client joins wouldn't know the existing score or could be out of sync?
19:01.12blast007wasn't sure if it was a persistent set of scores, or just for the players currently online
19:12.14allejoif all players on a team leave, then the score resets
19:15.15JeffMThen the sever can override it
19:17.13JeffMShould be trivial to use custom map objects and Lasers to do control points
19:25.23allejowhat's a domination game?
19:34.18*** join/#bzflag spldart (~spldart@bzflag/contributor/spldart)
19:34.18*** mode/#bzflag [+v spldart] by ChanServ
19:44.21JeffMthe map has specific areas that have to be captured
19:44.40JeffMtanks from one team only need to be in it for 30 seconds for it to be captured
19:44.53JeffMcapture all the areas, get a point
19:45.01JeffMthen they all reaset
19:48.09*** join/#bzflag guest3698 (c87523cf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.200.117.35.207)
19:48.33JeffMif you can get like 4-5 people per team it can be very fun
19:48.39JeffMnot a 1v1 or 2v2 thing
19:54.57guest3698the score reset and spawning players on base after a timed game is started is done in server side, right?
19:55.53guest3698are done*
19:59.32JeffMuse your name ;)
19:59.50guest3698who? :P
19:59.56JeffMyou
20:00.18guest3698still not, thank you
20:00.23allejooh I've been wanting to do something like that for a while
20:00.31allejojust never thought of a way to denote who controls a zone
20:00.47allejoother than a world weapon rico'ing
20:00.49JeffMI was thinking just fire a laser up
20:01.08JeffMI'd not even do zones, just distance from the object
20:01.08allejoup? or like a halo?
20:01.11JeffMso it'd always be a ring
20:01.12JeffMup
20:01.18JeffMlightsaber style
20:01.22allejoah
20:01.24JeffMso EVERYONE can see the capture and where it is
20:01.59allejodistance from the object? there's the cylinder syntax for custom world objects
20:02.12JeffMno, it' s just simple math
20:02.21JeffMand I'd not make the object define the radius, I'd make it constant
20:02.26JeffMthe object just defines the position
20:02.31JeffMall points should be equal
20:03.10allejohmm
20:03.29JeffMI woudl not overcomplicate it
20:04.59allejooh. i mean the cylinder syntax for the zone to capture. yea the WW would be relative to that object
20:05.01allejoright?
20:05.18JeffMyeah I mean the cylinder computation too
20:05.30JeffMI'd NOT put the capture radius in the object
20:05.39JeffMthere is no need to make each object have a different radius
20:06.12JeffMit would just confuse players
20:08.38JeffMbut for a custom map object you can put WAHATEVER syntax you want in it
20:08.45JeffMthey arn't sent to the client and have no graphics
20:10.17allejooh
20:10.29allejowell just saying, https://forums.bzflag.org/viewtopic.php?f=78&t=19031 that exists in the API
20:10.39JeffMsure
20:10.49JeffMI'd not do zones, I'd do points
20:10.55JeffMyou don't need arbitrary shapes
20:10.59JeffMtoo confusing
20:11.44allejoi'd just signify the control area with a shape on the floor or something
20:12.05JeffMpossibly, but it'd be nice to make it change color, but you can't
20:12.17JeffMstill, it'd be trivial to do it with ether points or zones
20:12.23allejomhmm
20:12.50JeffMjust force the mode to team FFA, disable rogues, and check for tanks in each area/zone on every update
20:13.07blast007make it a plugin for 2.4, code it into the game for 2.6 (along with server-controlled colors)
20:13.14JeffMsure
20:13.44JeffMmy issue with doing zones in a plugin is that people are used to being able to overlap zones to make complex shapes, here each zone would be a seperate thing to cap, so it may not work like expected
20:13.45blast0072.99 had BZDB controlled materials
20:13.59allejohave 2.6 support modifying materials from the API
20:13.59JeffMwith points there  is a clearer defintion
20:14.02allejoyea that
20:14.13JeffMbzdb would not cut it, you'd need to modify them on a per ojbect basis
20:14.23JeffMnot all the cap points change at the same time
20:14.31blast007material per object
20:14.41JeffMa cumbersom workaround
20:14.43blast007each one referencing a different var
20:14.45blast007sure
20:14.54blast007but not really that much different
20:15.08JeffMif you are going to add supprot for it, give each area an ID and a message to chagne the color for that ID
20:15.25JeffMthen that mechanism could be used for SO much
20:15.46allejowhy not have bzfs assign a unique ID per object instead of having the user define it
20:15.51allejoor is that what you meant?
20:16.06JeffMbecause if you want zones, you may want multiple objects attached to the same logical control point
20:16.20JeffMbzfs may not know the grouping
20:16.30guest3698quick question: the score reset and spawning players on base after a timed game is started are done/handled in/by server side, right?
20:16.32JeffMbut yes in the end, you get IDs for each thing that changes color
20:16.37JeffMuse your name
20:17.18allejoso make grouping user defined but bzfs would still reference by a uid?
20:17.19guest3698i'm alpha1, don't know why you ask that
20:17.25JeffMuse your name
20:17.43JeffMallejo: possibly, how you get the idea is not important
20:17.49JeffMid not idea
20:18.04allejofair
20:18.06JeffMbut yeah some way to group them would be needed.
20:18.24JeffMonce the game shows the area, then zones make total sense
20:18.33JeffMso you could use two box zones to do a star shape
20:18.47JeffMor a box and a triangle to do an arrow
20:19.09JeffMand if color is controled by a message, seperate from the game mode use, you can use that for all kinds of fun stuff
20:19.37JeffMyou now have the ability to let the server change stuff on the map as a visual indicator
20:19.57guest3698I don't use my name because I protect my security; if my question is a security one, then just say that, I guess
20:20.01spldartWoah. For map authors this sounds totally kewl
20:20.29allejoyou protect your security yet expose your IP, seems legit
20:20.51JeffMguest3698: then if you won't offer even the most basic human courtesy of a name,  then we don't have to offer you the courtesy of answering your question.
20:21.07guest3698<PROTECTED>
20:21.19JeffMspldart: yes, it would work well with plugins for many effects
20:21.36allejolikes that idea
20:21.43JeffMor even scripting if that gets in
20:21.55JeffMalways seperate your display from your data :)
20:22.16JeffMI'd still protoype it for 2.4 with just points
20:22.19JeffMmake sure it's fun
20:22.32JeffMand that there are enough players to do it
20:23.01guest3698well, include it on rules: "use a nick/name, not a generic one", I guess :/ (first time it passes to me in lots of years)
20:23.01JeffMwas talking with macsforme about CTF changes last night, many ideas won't work with the low player counts league matches currently exhibit.
20:23.16JeffMit's just basic human kindness dude....
20:23.50JeffMBZFlags "hide your flag" mechanic has always boggled my mind
20:24.17JeffMyou have a base, defend that thing!
20:24.33JeffMit's your base, not a base sugestion :)
20:24.46guest3698<PROTECTED>
20:25.17JeffMmwomp pomp womp  mwomp  mwomp  mwomp
20:25.42allejohey, it's charlie brown!
20:26.05spldart:rolleyes:
20:26.07JeffMbut a fixed flag base won't work in 1v1 or 2v2 ctf...
20:26.21JeffMyou need at least 4v4 IMHO
20:26.24JeffM8v8 is better
20:26.25allejoe.g. capture the base?
20:26.28JeffMno
20:26.41spldart8v8 is a fun jamboree
20:26.51JeffMchange CTF to where if you touch your own flag, it zaps back to your base
20:26.58JeffMand you can only cap when your flag is also at your base
20:27.02allejooh. like. every other game does it
20:27.06JeffMso that people actualy have to defend your base
20:27.09JeffMyeah, exactly
20:27.23JeffMthat's way more fun IMHO
20:27.55JeffMbz's method does not lead to role based play
20:27.59JeffMsomething I think that is very fun
20:28.39JeffMit's a team game, not " a bucnch of lone wolves who all try to get a flag"
20:29.12spldartI'd love to try a map with those rules.
20:29.36allejopretty simple to implement with a plugin in 2.4
20:29.44JeffMcan you zap the flag back?
20:29.52JeffMthat's what I wasn't sure of
20:30.10allejosure, reset the team flag
20:30.12spldartgrab jump drop to base right?
20:30.28JeffMeven if the person hitting it is carying a flag already?
20:30.43JeffMI don't htink you you should have to drop your weapon to zap your flag
20:30.56spldartAh. no. Your right.
20:30.58allejodepends, you can check for player position updates
20:31.04JeffMmay require a server mod
20:31.12JeffMserver does check for player/flag collisions
20:31.22JeffMit just ignores them if they are carying a flag
20:31.26JeffMcould put a hook into that
20:31.41allejomake it an API event
20:31.45JeffMyeah
20:32.13allejoor maybe bz_eAllowFlagGrab already does that?
20:32.57*** join/#bzflag Cobra_Fast (~coprah@wtwrp.de)
20:33.18allejohttps://github.com/BZFlag-Dev/bzflag/blob/2.4/src/bzfs/bzfs.cxx#L3392
20:34.26JeffMyeah it's that easy out that would burn you
20:34.33JeffMyou'd need a way to overrride that
20:36.10JeffMbut that would be a server only change
20:36.49allejowouldn't that be the only change needed? when that event is triggered, have a plugin reset the flag or move it to a specified position
20:37.04JeffMyeah that may be the only change needed
20:37.18JeffMthat and some well designed maps :)
20:38.19allejoyup
20:38.36JeffMlike ,remake UTs facing worlds map :)
20:40.30allejobz_ePlayerFlagCollision or bz_ePlayerTouchesFlag or bz_eSillyPlayerAndFlagMeet
20:41.17JeffMactualy what may be better is to add some data to the flag, "allow_grab_by_anyone" or something like that
20:41.36JeffMyou already have the right event, you just need data to tell it to not care if the carier has a flag or not
20:42.01JeffMreally you just need a flag to AND with the player has flag check
20:42.03allejofor bz_eAllowFlagGrab?
20:42.16JeffMno the easy out happens too fast
20:42.24allejoyea
20:42.26JeffMI'd add the attribute to the actual FLAG record
20:42.35JeffMadd a bool to the flag class
20:43.02JeffMthen like bz_AllowFlagGrabByAnyone(FlagID);
20:43.07JeffMthat'd set the data
20:43.37JeffMif you wanted an event, you'd need like bz_eAllowPlayerTOGrabFlag
20:44.01JeffMthat'd override the results of that early out
20:45.01allejowouldn't it be more of just a nofication event? bz_eAllowFlagGrab always lets you disallow the flag grab
20:47.27JeffMlike this,
20:47.35JeffMhttps://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/1PZDmLDN/
20:47.53JeffMso there are two allow checks, one to see if the player can even grab ANY flags
20:48.04JeffMand another if a specific flag should be grabbed.
20:48.39JeffMso for your CTF plugin you'd force the frist event to true, and then do the flag caried check inside the second event
20:48.47JeffMand zap team flags as neeeded
20:49.10JeffMthat would also let you build a plugin to auto pickup flags on drive over :)
20:49.21JeffMcall it "loose cannons"
20:51.43JeffMor I guess you can merge them all
20:51.54JeffMit just means doing the postion check more often
20:52.49JeffMjust init
20:52.49JeffM<PROTECTED>
20:52.57JeffMbefore the event call
20:53.16JeffMand pull  those two terms from the inital check
20:53.53JeffMso it'd just look like this,
20:54.02JeffMhttps://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/GDkgB2QX/
20:54.11JeffMno, new events needed
20:56.12allejooh sure, i like the second one better
20:56.18JeffMyeah it's cleaner
20:58.36blast007if you're adding data to a specific flag ID, how does that handle randomly spawned flags?
20:58.48JeffMI've moved away from that idea
20:58.56JeffMit's all event based now
20:58.57blast007k, then nvm :)
20:59.19JeffMit's a minor modification to the initalization of an existing bool in an existing event
20:59.28JeffMcombines two checks into one
21:04.00allejoi can test/push that change in a bit unless someone objects to it/does it before me
21:04.50JeffMit should show no regressions in cases where that event is unregistered
21:04.58JeffMdo any plugins use that event?
21:05.24allejoyea
21:05.34JeffMyou may have a regression if there are plugins that use the event, and ignore the passed in, inital value
21:06.07JeffMlike if they always init allow to some fixed value, that throws away the boolean test that was moved into it.
21:06.49JeffMthat would be the argument for a new event/field
21:07.00allejoright
21:07.36JeffMunfortunately "friggin legacy code" is all too often a reason for messy designs
21:08.34allejowould be nice to keep it in the same event+field but yea, it someone sets allow to true, that'd break things
21:08.52JeffMif you can update any code that breaks with the change you can be fine
21:09.00JeffMthe userbase is so small, that's viable
21:18.46JeffMyou could also do a variant of the domination/control point thing, assult
21:19.08JeffMyou have a map with a single control point, one team spawns close ish, to it, the other away
21:19.29JeffMthe assulting team (far team) has to get all it's tanks inside the control point for 30 seconds.
21:19.40JeffMthe defending team has to stop them
21:19.54JeffMwhen the assulers win, the roles reverse for the next point
21:20.09JeffMworks well with themed maps
21:20.16JeffMattack the castle, etc...
21:21.42allejosounds like KOTH
21:21.49allejoisn't there a team mode for it
21:21.53JeffMdunno
21:22.01JeffMbut yeah I could see how it could be similar
21:22.11JeffMdoes koth control spawn locations?
21:22.23JeffMkoth traditionaly is a FFA thing
21:23.07allejonah, you'd probably need a separate plugin for custom spawning based on events
21:23.24JeffMyeah assult very specifically sets spawns to locations on the map
21:23.30JeffMspawn rooms for each team
21:23.44JeffMsince distance to the "goal" is important to balance the gameplay
21:24.41JeffMI think bzflag's game modes are intetioncaly generic so that they all work with rando maps
21:24.50JeffMmakes them weak  IMHO
21:25.04JeffMI'd rather see stronger, more themed modes that require thoughtful maps
21:25.44spldarttu
21:25.54allejobut if something requires thought, players won't grasp it ;)
21:25.57JeffMbut that's just the game designer in me talking outloud :)
21:26.03JeffMheh
21:26.11JeffMwell just though on the map maker, not the player :)
21:26.18JeffMthe map maker should burn the thinking into the map
21:26.22JeffMmake it intuitive
21:26.40spldartexactly
21:27.49*** mode/#bzflag [-v short_circuit] by ChanServ
21:29.18JeffMand your tank should be able to turn into a robot and sidestep ;)
21:35.47JeffMand when you turn into a robot it plays "the touch" from the 1986 transformers movie
21:42.46short_circuit._O
21:42.54*** mode/#bzflag [+v spldart] by ChanServ
21:44.44JeffMin 5v5 games teams can combine to form a giant robot
21:44.57JeffMbut still controll the individual limbs
21:45.12JeffMlike multiplayer QWOP
21:46.00spldartI need to hunt for my 'war towers' map which was my only map that was designed for game play and not stupid gimmicks.
21:51.10spldartby me
22:06.34spldartNow Deadpool is stuck in my head.
22:38.12JeffMX is going to give it to you
23:14.59*** join/#bzflag trepan (~trepan@unaffiliated/trepan)
23:14.59*** mode/#bzflag [+v trepan] by ChanServ
23:28.06*** part/#bzflag nafta_bz (~nafta_bz_@host34-182-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it)

Generated by irclog2html.pl Modified by Tim Riker to work with infobot.