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01:16.23 | KaadmY | according to a guy on urban jungle, telling people where st is is cheating |
01:16.28 | KaadmY | because that's the seer flag's jobn |
01:16.31 | KaadmY | job* |
01:16.38 | KaadmY | and seer is also cheating because it's made for team games |
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05:16.13 | the_map | so...holding the SE flag on UJ is cheating? I don't think so |
05:24.19 | the_map | from a player, wrt 2.4.6 from 2.0.4: "gj. Thanks for the update. I hadn't seen an update in a loooong time." |
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06:31.10 | allejo_ | pardon the dust. i'm doing some much needed updates to my server |
06:31.55 | the_map | lol |
07:06.02 | allejo | mkay, all my bz servers should be restored |
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16:25.08 | JeffM | ok... that's odd. I just ran the bzfs linux build inside cmd.exe on my windows 10 machine. it worked prefectly |
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17:33.58 | blast007 | JeffM: probably worked better than the Windows .exe version :) |
17:34.46 | JeffM | It would still have to use Windows networking |
17:36.52 | blast007 | wouldn't be using our timing code for Windows though |
17:37.03 | blast007 | so 30 seconds would be 30 seconds, not 20 |
17:41.36 | JeffM | Sure, but it's not a full kernel, I'm sure it maps to the rpc |
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18:29.58 | the_map | I'm just amazed that something worked perfectly on windows |
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18:44.54 | JeffM | the_map:most things I use do |
18:45.05 | JeffM | Can't say that about Linux usually |
18:46.54 | the_map | opposite for me |
18:47.43 | KaadmY | the_map: same |
18:47.46 | KaadmY | linux <3 |
18:48.00 | JeffM | We probably know more about what we are doing on each respective OS :) |
18:48.44 | JeffM | The last real "Windows" problem was more of a "how corporate IT has the domain configured" thing |
18:48.47 | KaadmY | and is this going to turn into another OS flamewar? |
18:48.49 | the_map | no...opposite for me in both statements :P |
18:48.51 | JeffM | But it was relatively easy to resolve |
18:49.09 | JeffM | I think it all depends on what you are doing and what you are familiar with |
18:49.13 | KaadmY | yep |
18:49.24 | KaadmY | imho linux is really easy |
18:49.33 | KaadmY | and i use a terminal and text stuff whenever possible |
18:49.35 | KaadmY | i have guis |
18:49.40 | KaadmY | hate* |
18:49.40 | the_map | I used windows for a couple years...couldn't get anything to work right, including simple things like deleting empty folders I made myself |
18:49.53 | JeffM | Wow, never had that problem |
18:50.07 | JeffM | Unless the drive was borked |
18:50.13 | the_map | nope, good drive |
18:50.16 | JeffM | Odd |
18:50.27 | JeffM | Or unless it was vista |
18:50.31 | JeffM | Vista blows |
18:50.32 | the_map | I crashed windows explorer five times trying to delete that empty folder |
18:50.34 | the_map | windows 7 |
18:50.43 | JeffM | 7 was pretty stable for me |
18:50.48 | JeffM | Slow, but stable |
18:50.57 | JeffM | 10's been working out quite well |
18:51.41 | the_map | well, I'm glad it works for you :P |
18:51.46 | JeffM | But I'll play more with the Linux subsystem, see what it can do |
18:52.02 | JeffM | Bet I can install GCC and GDB |
18:52.37 | JeffM | Being able to test with out swapping to the Linux system would be nice |
18:53.28 | JeffM | Specially knowing what does or does not run under mono |
18:55.40 | the_map | mono? |
18:56.24 | JeffM | The open source version of the .net runtime |
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18:57.22 | JeffM | No, wine is an emulator |
18:57.30 | JeffM | Mono is a native Linux runtime |
18:57.49 | JeffM | .net is like Java, it compiles to a byte code and is run by a language VM |
18:57.57 | JeffM | So there is a runtime on each OS |
18:58.18 | JeffM | The MS .net runtime is Windows only, but mono is the open source runtime for any OS |
18:58.49 | JeffM | It uses a boatload of the components that were open sourced |
19:01.03 | blast007 | "Wine Is Not an Emulator" |
19:01.29 | JeffM | Except that it kinda is, it does exe code translation |
19:01.38 | DTRemenak | no, it doesn't |
19:01.46 | DTRemenak | it's an implementation of the win32 api on unix systems |
19:01.56 | JeffM | How does it do the startup code then? |
19:02.02 | DTRemenak | exe's are run natively, x86 on x86 |
19:02.17 | JeffM | But I will defer to the Daniel, he has worked on the project |
19:02.31 | DTRemenak | ntkernel.exe.so in wine is a native linux binary, and IT does the startup |
19:02.33 | JeffM | .net is more like the Java stuff |
19:02.38 | JeffM | Ahh |
19:02.50 | JeffM | But mono does not use wine |
19:03.05 | JeffM | I believe they have shared code before, correct? |
19:03.36 | DTRemenak | mono is a native implementation of .net on unix systems. it's actually really similar to wine, just a different api (and it additionally needs a bytecode interpreter, like java) |
19:03.53 | DTRemenak | wine uses mono to run .net win32 apps |
19:04.00 | JeffM | Makes sense |
19:04.41 | DTRemenak | whether mixed-mode or just making stupid assumptions about dll availability |
19:05.09 | JeffM | Can you do mixed mode with native Linux code? |
19:05.43 | JeffM | Not that it could be a good idea, given all our fun times with mixed mode :) |
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19:05.46 | DTRemenak | I assume so, but I've never looked into it. |
19:06.03 | DTRemenak | how do you build mono apps on linux? is there a gcc module for it? |
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19:06.32 | JeffM | I've always used monodic |
19:06.37 | JeffM | Mondev |
19:06.40 | Juesto | how do i obtain alternative fonts for the game? |
19:06.42 | JeffM | Silly iPad |
19:07.00 | JeffM | Justo, there is a tool to make them |
19:07.38 | JeffM | They are pictures and an associated data file |
19:07.38 | DTRemenak | looks like mono does not currently support native mixed-mode |
19:07.49 | JeffM | Probably for the best |
19:08.06 | Juesto | https://wiki.bzflag.org/Change_Default_Font |
19:08.12 | JeffM | I assume you can just pInvoke |
19:08.30 | DTRemenak | although you can totally use gcc to cross-compile mixed-mode apps for windows and run them on mono+wine. sometimes people's recommended solutions are WIERD. |
19:08.58 | JeffM | Heh |
19:09.02 | Juesto | wishes to have menlo for monospaced |
19:09.30 | JeffM | Juesto: you'll have to make it with the tool |
19:10.19 | DTRemenak | by extension I guess you could build with mono+winelib (which lets you build windows exe's that depend on native linux .so's) and get "native" mixed-mode that way |
19:10.40 | JeffM | And then be dammed to hell for it |
19:10.56 | DTRemenak | yeah, there's a significant squick factor there... |
19:11.00 | Juesto | what about cygwin? |
19:11.03 | Juesto | or mingw |
19:11.15 | JeffM | That's the other way |
19:11.39 | DTRemenak | cygwin is unix api layer running on windows, pretty much the inverse of wine |
19:11.40 | JeffM | Mixed mode has a lot of general problems, so I can understand why they don't do it |
19:12.37 | DTRemenak | heh, can you imagine trying to deal with debugging that? :) |
19:12.49 | JeffM | Is a built font tool shipped with Windows bzflag ? |
19:12.53 | DTRemenak | the visual studio debugger freaks out a bit, I can't imagine what gdb would do |
19:13.14 | Juesto | DejaVu only |
19:13.15 | blast007 | the current font tool is for Linux and Mac OS X |
19:13.24 | Juesto | oh i thought fonts |
19:13.33 | JeffM | Ahh yeah, you got rid of mine, MFCness |
19:13.50 | JeffM | apologizes for that |
19:13.54 | blast007 | :) |
19:14.02 | JeffM | I could redo it in mono :P |
19:14.18 | Juesto | is confused |
19:14.43 | JeffM | Juesto: there is a tool, a program that converts true type fonts, into bzflag fonts |
19:14.50 | JeffM | It is needed to make any new fonts for the game |
19:14.55 | blast007 | Juesto: if you want new fonts, get the BZFlag 2.4.6 source, and it's in tools/TextTool2/ |
19:14.57 | Juesto | Okay, and what about "stock" availability? |
19:15.02 | JeffM | That tool only runs on Linux and OSX |
19:15.07 | blast007 | there is only one font included with the game |
19:15.10 | Juesto | Any guidelines? as in, which looks good? |
19:15.20 | JeffM | Yeah, if you want any other font, you have to convert it |
19:15.25 | JeffM | And shove it in your folder |
19:15.40 | JeffM | The font is for you, it all depends on what YOU think looks good |
19:15.50 | JeffM | Nobody else will see it |
19:15.51 | Juesto | bzf2.0 included a second font it reads... |
19:16.08 | blast007 | we removed that other font years ago |
19:16.16 | Juesto | Wasnt good? |
19:16.24 | JeffM | Licensing I think? |
19:16.31 | blast007 | yeah, I think licensing |
19:16.45 | Juesto | Still available in old branches? |
19:16.58 | JeffM | Theoretically |
19:17.16 | DTRemenak | format hasn't changed, I think, so you should be able to just grab them out of an old binary |
19:17.53 | JeffM | Yeah, you'd just need the 2 files |
19:17.55 | Juesto | yep, 2.0 branch is available |
19:18.20 | Juesto | of course, its deleted |
19:18.27 | JeffM | Everything should be in history |
19:18.34 | Juesto | Would have to pull the repository and then log, yeah thanks |
19:18.39 | DTRemenak | or just download an old tarball |
19:18.45 | DTRemenak | you don't need a live repo |
19:18.49 | Juesto | zip* |
19:18.54 | DTRemenak | whatever :P |
19:18.57 | Juesto | its on github so its sort of easier |
19:19.17 | blast007 | it was removed for 2.0.14, so just look at the v2.0.12 tag |
19:19.22 | Juesto | Apparently it had different folders? |
19:19.31 | Juesto | there is no 2.0.12 tag |
19:19.34 | Juesto | just major versions |
19:19.41 | blast007 | tag, not branches |
19:20.07 | Juesto | interesting https://github.com/BZFlag-Dev/bzflag/commits/2.0/data/fonts |
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19:21.19 | Juesto | which fonts bzflag had thought the years? |
19:22.14 | blast007 | look. through. the. tags. |
19:22.29 | Juesto | damnit, github doesnt have a link to download specific folders |
19:23.06 | Juesto | blast007: it always had the old fonts until dejavu replaced everything? |
19:23.35 | blast007 | you can answer that question yourself |
19:24.16 | Juesto | its going to be a waste of time for me to look history if you do remember |
19:25.26 | Juesto | to be clear, what's the latest tree? 2.4? |
19:25.48 | blast007 | 2.4 is the current stable branch |
19:26.10 | Juesto | *latest* tree, apparently master isnt latest |
19:27.40 | blast007 | master is 2.5, but 2.6 is very unlikely to ever be released |
19:28.43 | Juesto | is bzflag theoritically portable? |
19:28.55 | Juesto | as in, it works without installing it |
19:29.01 | blast007 | on what platform? |
19:29.07 | Juesto | windows |
19:29.51 | blast007 | we do require that the Visual C++ 2010 runtimes are installed |
19:30.08 | Juesto | thats a very common thing blast007 |
19:30.39 | Juesto | i guess it doesnt need an installer except for the vc++10 redist |
19:30.44 | blast007 | right |
19:31.17 | Juesto | i didnt look much around the site but is there a download-and-run binary? |
19:31.21 | blast007 | but we don't follow the PortableApps requirements. We do make (temporary?) changes to the registry, and I don't think the -confdir option worked 100% correctly. |
19:31.45 | blast007 | no |
19:31.53 | blast007 | you'd have to install and the just copy the installed files |
19:31.57 | blast007 | then* |
19:32.09 | Juesto | does the game create the registry entries? |
19:32.45 | blast007 | yes, but I think it just stores the current path to the running .exe for the Xfire gaming IM client, which it removes when the game exits |
19:32.47 | Juesto | nvm, i just realized the installer does since the game runs fine on limited users/without elevation |
19:33.14 | Juesto | Ah, then it is "portable" |
19:33.15 | blast007 | the only registry entries that the installer creates are for uninstalling the game later |
19:33.28 | blast007 | it's 'portable-ish' |
19:33.38 | DTRemenak | heh, nobody's pulled the xfire code yet? |
19:33.45 | Juesto | do the installer allows extraction? |
19:34.01 | blast007 | Juesto: we use NSIS, so go find out |
19:34.08 | Juesto | 7zip or similar tool to extract its content, ah nevermind |
19:34.27 | DTRemenak | they shut down their servers last year sometime |
19:34.51 | Juesto | apologies, i should have looked |
19:34.56 | Juesto | it does |
19:35.12 | blast007 | DTRemenak: ah, fun |
19:35.42 | blast007 | I don't even know if *anyone* ever used it, besides me once to see what it actually did :P |
19:35.51 | Juesto | i used to use xfire |
19:35.52 | DTRemenak | I did |
19:35.54 | Juesto | the classic one |
19:36.37 | blast007 | adds that to his list of 'final fixes for BZFlag' |
19:36.39 | Juesto | Is the font switch in 2.0.12-14 the only one? |
19:37.20 | Juesto | i would like to know if theres more :p |
19:38.01 | blast007 | why? |
19:38.18 | Juesto | experimentation |
19:38.29 | blast007 | so make your own. we provide a tool to do that. |
19:38.39 | blast007 | at least for Linux and OSX |
19:38.42 | Juesto | shame its not for windows :/ |
19:39.07 | Juesto | where is the frog used in? |
19:39.18 | blast007 | raining frogs |
19:39.45 | Juesto | bzfs setting? |
19:40.04 | blast007 | yes |
19:40.12 | Juesto | and could the teleport be less blinding? |
19:40.29 | Juesto | i mean, why it was made *that* blinding |
19:41.16 | Juesto | and are the models used in experimental part of the engine? i dont seem to find them anywhere |
19:41.20 | Juesto | in data |
19:41.54 | blast007 | there are no external models. it's all code. |
19:42.55 | DTRemenak | ah, looks like 2.0 only got the registry key, not all the stats stuff for XFIRE (at least, I don't see any code protected by USE_XFIRE) |
19:43.04 | Juesto | Heh |
19:43.12 | DTRemenak | 2.99 has a boatload of support code |
19:43.30 | Juesto | is 2.99 the most-feature-wise version? |
19:43.49 | Juesto | despite discontinued it still remains the "best" right? |
19:44.00 | DTRemenak | best, worst, whatever :P |
19:44.32 | blast007 | "best" ... uh... it had a lot of fancy features and new bells and whistles, but it was completely unplayable, so if that's "best", sure |
19:44.33 | DTRemenak | 6 years or so more development than 2.4, but it had a few outstanding problems |
19:44.55 | Juesto | it was unplayable? |
19:44.59 | Juesto | crashy as hell? |
19:45.09 | Juesto | but what kind of computer do people have? |
19:45.11 | DTRemenak | netcode was pretty badly broken |
19:45.16 | Juesto | Ouch |
19:45.17 | blast007 | not crashy, but the game would go all kinds of crazy after playing for a while |
19:45.27 | Juesto | Leaking itself? |
19:45.38 | Juesto | I see, not optimized. |
19:45.40 | DTRemenak | and the font stuff was not completely stable |
19:46.10 | blast007 | no, it wasn't optimization issues, it was bugged all to hell |
19:46.28 | Juesto | ah okay |
19:46.51 | Juesto | not just unoptimized, broken portions |
19:46.52 | blast007 | and it worked fine for like 30 to 60 minutes sometimes with several players on, and then it would start to go mental |
19:47.17 | Juesto | weird |
19:48.36 | Juesto | tbh, a git log would be better for exactly knowing when the old fonts were gone |
19:48.57 | Juesto | i mean, i would like to obtain their last version, they were this "unoptimized" ? |
19:50.21 | DTRemenak | so go look at the git log... |
19:50.23 | Juesto | seems to have attraction for obselete/discontinued software |
19:50.43 | Juesto | cant without fetching the entire thing lol |
19:50.45 | DTRemenak | https://github.com/BZFlag-Dev/bzflag/commits/2.4/data/fonts |
19:52.08 | Juesto | Nevermind |
19:52.17 | Juesto | it was actually the only change |
19:56.59 | Juesto | Serif is no longer used? |
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21:11.11 | *** topic/#bzflag is http://BZFlag.org || http://ohloh.net/p/bzflag || https://wiki.bzflag.org/Getting_Help || Channel Logs: http://infobot.rikers.org/%23bzflag/ || 2.4.6 released! https://forums.bzflag.org/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=19241 |
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21:11.36 | DTRemenak | apache is not lgpl 2 compatible |
21:12.25 | Juesto | its a GPL3 compatible license |
21:12.37 | blast007 | we are not GPL3 |
21:12.41 | blast007 | we are LGPL2 |
21:12.44 | JeffM | burn it!!!!!! |
21:12.57 | JeffM | GPL3 is the werk of the devil |
21:14.46 | Juesto | why? how? |
21:14.50 | JeffM | viral |
21:15.02 | JeffM | forces you into one "kind" of fredom |
21:15.12 | JeffM | less flexable |
21:15.24 | JeffM | IMHO of course :) |
21:18.40 | blast007 | still not 100% sold on profont's licensing... there are various versions there tweaked by other people, so I'm not sure those versions could have been relicensed as MIT |
21:19.27 | Juesto | freesans ? |
21:19.30 | Juesto | open sans? |
21:19.56 | Juesto | apache2 D= |
21:20.11 | the_map | dune sands? |
21:20.17 | JeffM | is the entire playerbase wanting new fonts? |
21:20.34 | Juesto | no, but let them have alternatives |
21:20.44 | JeffM | they don't have to be installed by default |
21:20.49 | JeffM | make some and see how they play |
21:20.57 | JeffM | publish them, see if others like them... |
21:21.04 | Juesto | FreeSans: License: GPL font exception, GNU General Public License |
21:21.06 | JeffM | the system doesn't pevent you from using multiple fonts |
21:21.20 | JeffM | do you just not want to learn how to use the tool? |
21:21.29 | JeffM | and are hoping someone will do it for you? |
21:21.34 | blast007 | he runs Windows, I think |
21:21.36 | Juesto | needs a binary of the tool |
21:21.43 | Juesto | W32 |
21:21.48 | JeffM | virtual box :) |
21:22.13 | JeffM | or go back in history and get the windows version of the tool |
21:22.27 | blast007 | TextTool2 also doesn't seem to build in Debian Jessie, needs a newer libpng (I think?) |
21:22.38 | blast007 | works in Debian Testing |
21:23.04 | Juesto | Cant be crosscompiled for windows? |
21:23.23 | JeffM | probably |
21:23.26 | Juesto | what does use .net? |
21:23.31 | JeffM | no |
21:23.31 | Juesto | i mean, talking about mono |
21:23.34 | JeffM | no |
21:23.38 | JeffM | font tool is before that |
21:23.38 | Juesto | before |
21:23.51 | Juesto | talking about something else |
21:23.53 | Juesto | not about the tool |
21:24.06 | JeffM | best to tell people you are switching topics then :) |
21:24.14 | Juesto | yeah sorry |
21:24.23 | JeffM | nothing in bzflag uses .net |
21:26.24 | Juesto | so yeah, i am asking for a binary download of the tool |
21:26.35 | JeffM | nobody has it for windows |
21:26.39 | JeffM | it's writen for linux |
21:26.50 | Juesto | compiling bzflag is more or less a nightmare also |
21:26.55 | JeffM | you'd have to go back in history, before they removed the windows version and build it |
21:26.59 | Juesto | i tried, lots of errors |
21:27.00 | JeffM | this would not be |
21:27.07 | JeffM | you are probalby missing dependencies |
21:27.13 | blast007 | compiling on what platform? |
21:27.15 | JeffM | texttool1 should not have any other than MFC |
21:27.42 | Juesto | How do i include the dependencies of bzflag when the deps dont have a project file or is a vc6 file? |
21:27.50 | JeffM | you get the premade package |
21:27.53 | blast007 | vc6?? |
21:28.17 | Juesto | or rather, how do i include the compiled dependencies to compile bzflag? |
21:28.19 | JeffM | blast007: did you get rid of all the checked in dep code? |
21:28.28 | blast007 | yes |
21:28.40 | JeffM | did you add an environment var to look for headers and libs in? |
21:28.46 | blast007 | now it's all in a slightly broken separate repository |
21:28.47 | JeffM | or a special folder? |
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21:29.09 | blast007 | Juesto: we include documentation with the expectation that you'll read it, so maybe start there |
21:29.11 | Juesto | uh, think i tired without an effect? |
21:29.20 | Juesto | about the enviorment variable |
21:29.32 | JeffM | do you know what those are? |
21:30.09 | Juesto | the documentation is also somewhat confusing |
21:30.10 | blast007 | environment variables - that's stuff like barometric pressure, right? |
21:30.19 | blast007 | what part is confusing? |
21:30.21 | JeffM | mine is 4 |
21:31.14 | Juesto | i dont have the computers i've tried to build handy |
21:32.03 | Juesto | are every supported bzdb client variables listed in the config file? |
21:32.27 | JeffM | no |
21:32.33 | JeffM | only the ones that are saved |
21:32.33 | blast007 | most of the ones you'd care about are |
21:32.41 | JeffM | because they are saved :) |
21:33.00 | JeffM | server sets a bunch more, but you can't change them so it doesn't matter what they are |
21:33.56 | Juesto | do the config save every client variable ? |
21:34.16 | blast007 | do you even read what we say? |
21:34.29 | JeffM | no, that'd be too hard |
21:34.49 | Juesto | I do, its just not completely clear blast007 |
21:35.05 | Juesto | i literally asked to rephrase |
21:35.11 | blast007 | "no, only the ones that are saved" |
21:35.25 | JeffM | some are always inited at default |
21:35.29 | JeffM | so they don't need to be saved |
21:35.32 | JeffM | some are optional |
21:35.47 | Juesto | okay, i am interested in these optional ones |
21:35.48 | blast007 | some are just used internally for minor state tracking |
21:36.01 | blast007 | no you're not |
21:36.08 | JeffM | there is no list |
21:36.11 | JeffM | there are no secrets |
21:36.22 | JeffM | the cake is a lie |
21:36.40 | Juesto | i guess what i am asking is, are there any "useful" client-only variable that is not saved by default |
21:36.44 | Juesto | ? |
21:36.53 | blast007 | probably not |
21:37.09 | JeffM | if it was useful it'd be saved ;) |
21:37.21 | Juesto | and is there a good bzw editor that is not a blender plugin? |
21:37.34 | JeffM | do you think that there is secretly a good game hidden inside bzflag and it's just not turned on? |
21:37.36 | blast007 | any text editor |
21:37.45 | Juesto | And what do i do? |
21:37.54 | JeffM | notepad++ wrorks quite well |
21:37.55 | blast007 | type stuff |
21:37.57 | Juesto | WSYIWYG please |
21:37.58 | JeffM | you write maps in the bzw language |
21:38.01 | JeffM | nope |
21:38.03 | JeffM | does not exist |
21:38.15 | Juesto | there were bzedit... :/ |
21:38.24 | JeffM | yes there was, it was a hack |
21:38.27 | JeffM | and never updated |
21:38.30 | JeffM | it also used MFC :) |
21:38.34 | Juesto | and a blender plugin... |
21:38.36 | JeffM | so bad.... |
21:38.43 | Juesto | Ohh.... vc98 days! |
21:38.45 | JeffM | there is bzworkbench, but it is not complete by a longchot |
21:39.18 | Juesto | lets say i want to make something like hix, no meshes, what do i use? |
21:39.28 | JeffM | a text editor |
21:39.59 | JeffM | we are not joking |
21:40.01 | Juesto | wsyiwyg, not a text editor, come on |
21:40.09 | JeffM | there isn't one |
21:40.15 | JeffM | seriously |
21:40.28 | JeffM | people make maps by text file |
21:40.31 | JeffM | or in blender |
21:40.34 | Juesto | Then why the wiki explains *multiple* ones |
21:40.37 | JeffM | or with meshes in wingz |
21:40.50 | JeffM | some people still use bzedit |
21:40.53 | JeffM | I don't know why |
21:40.55 | JeffM | but they do |
21:41.02 | Juesto | Because it works good? |
21:41.10 | JeffM | no, because there isn't anything else |
21:41.11 | Juesto | and/or was the official tool? |
21:41.16 | JeffM | there isn't one |
21:41.25 | JeffM | you are becoming anoying |
21:41.33 | blast007 | bzedit could make a basic map, but you'd have to fix the teleporters in a text editor because it makes ones invalid for current bzfs versions |
21:41.43 | JeffM | yeah it's really old |
21:41.48 | blast007 | specifically, removing the 'name' line from the teleporters |
21:41.50 | JeffM | but it will let you postion boxes |
21:41.56 | Juesto | Sorry for the annoyance... i just.... :| |
21:42.00 | zuii | bzworkbench does not work at all? |
21:42.02 | JeffM | draging sucks in it |
21:42.18 | JeffM | zuii: depends on your level of skill in building it and what you want it to do |
21:42.22 | JeffM | it as some features |
21:42.28 | JeffM | but is missing some useability ones |
21:42.37 | JeffM | it's not near "feature complete" |
21:42.40 | zuii | ow, okay :( |
21:42.42 | blast007 | bzworkbench does similar things as bzedit though it can *show* more detailed maps |
21:42.56 | JeffM | yeah it has a better map reader, but it lacking in editing tools |
21:43.04 | JeffM | basicly it was just left half finished |
21:43.05 | blast007 | supports viewing least some mesh objects and can load remote textures |
21:43.11 | blast007 | at least* |
21:43.35 | Juesto | i've never seen frog rain in bzf |
21:43.42 | JeffM | then turn it on |
21:43.52 | JeffM | do you think we lie to you about things? |
21:43.53 | KaadmY | Juesto: i think mofo has frog rain |
21:44.01 | Juesto | KaadmY: it doesnt? |
21:44.47 | KaadmY | a good bzflag editor would be pretty difficult with 2.0 map objects |
21:45.03 | KaadmY | if you have mesh support, you pretty much need a complete mesh editor |
21:45.09 | KaadmY | or have mesh import options |
21:45.22 | blast007 | it was probably just gonna be a mesh importer |
21:45.25 | JeffM | KaadmY: the idea was to let it mostly postion meshes, and update them from an editor |
21:45.25 | KaadmY | but then the mesh you made with an external editor will have problems, like no inside points |
21:45.33 | JeffM | yeah, not a mesh maker, but a mesh layout tool |
21:45.36 | JeffM | groups and stuff |
21:45.37 | Juesto | hm |
21:45.55 | blast007 | probably scaling too, *maybe* texturing |
21:45.58 | JeffM | KaadmY: there are algorityms that could be applied inside the editor |
21:46.16 | KaadmY | btw why do meshboxes have broken textures when the aspect isn't square |
21:46.24 | JeffM | but that would be what bzworkbench would do, help you setup the mesh for bzflag, if not create it. |
21:46.42 | JeffM | because they have fixed UV coords. |
21:46.49 | JeffM | not parametrics like the boxes |
21:46.57 | KaadmY | "fixed", meaning "broken"? |
21:47.05 | JeffM | no as in 0 and 1 :) |
21:47.06 | JeffM | static |
21:47.15 | JeffM | they do not change based on the size of the object |
21:47.33 | KaadmY | couldn't that be easily fixed though? |
21:47.38 | JeffM | a box that is 1 high and 2 wide, would want it's horizontal U coordinates to be 0 and 2, not 0 and 1. |
21:47.46 | JeffM | probalby |
21:47.56 | KaadmY | it's a big problem with mapping imo |
21:47.59 | blast007 | also, there are three kinds of boxes in the game. box, meshbox, and "meshed box" (which is a normal box that has some 'mesh-type' attribute added to it) |
21:48.16 | KaadmY | because they look like c*** ingame |
21:48.22 | JeffM | meshboxes are really just a hack, optimialy you'd define the mesh yourself, with whatever UV you wanted. |
21:48.34 | JeffM | they were a cheap way to make boxes that could have materials |
21:48.35 | KaadmY | aren't meshed boxes just converted to meshbox? |
21:48.41 | blast007 | no |
21:48.53 | KaadmY | what's different then? |
21:49.03 | JeffM | in a mesh, you define the faces and vertecies |
21:49.04 | KaadmY | stuff that doesn't need to change isn't changed? |
21:49.06 | JeffM | they can be anywhere |
21:49.10 | KaadmY | yes |
21:49.13 | JeffM | they can be in the shape of a box |
21:49.15 | JeffM | we don't care |
21:49.18 | JeffM | it's still a mesh |
21:49.21 | KaadmY | ikr |
21:49.28 | JeffM | a meshbox is like a macro to make a predefined mesh |
21:49.41 | KaadmY | yes |
21:49.42 | blast007 | KaadmY: try driving through a meshbox and a 'meshed box' with OO |
21:49.43 | JeffM | you say meshbox, and it makes a mesh with points it defined |
21:49.47 | blast007 | one you'll get stuck in |
21:49.50 | JeffM | so the code in bzfs defines the UVs |
21:50.12 | KaadmY | JeffM: i know that already |
21:50.24 | KaadmY | but i don't know why the UVs are stretched in one axis |
21:50.27 | JeffM | so it doesn't know that a mesh with square verts is a "meshbox" |
21:50.38 | JeffM | because it ALWAYS sets the UVs to 0 and 1 |
21:50.51 | JeffM | they are hardcoded |
21:51.04 | KaadmY | meshbox UV coords aren't 0 and 1 |
21:51.11 | KaadmY | large boxes look good if the x/y aspect is 1 |
21:51.21 | JeffM | does the texture repeat? |
21:51.24 | KaadmY | yep |
21:51.35 | JeffM | ok, then it sets both to the same based on the total scale |
21:51.49 | KaadmY | that's why i'm not sure why it's like that |
21:51.51 | JeffM | to make the aspect right, it would have to set the UVs based on the aspect ratio of each face |
21:51.57 | JeffM | because it wasn't writen that way |
21:51.59 | KaadmY | couldn't the coords use the box's size in both axes? |
21:52.03 | JeffM | sure |
21:52.08 | KaadmY | has an idea |
21:52.10 | blast007 | it could do a lot of things |
21:52.15 | JeffM | it's not that it's impossible, it's that it was just not writen that way |
21:52.16 | JeffM | fix it |
21:52.22 | KaadmY | i'll try later |
21:52.53 | blast007 | as long as it's just a visual change, it should be fine to include for 2.4.8 |
21:53.21 | JeffM | are meshboxes sent over the wire as meshbox? |
21:56.43 | KaadmY | JeffM: nope, they're meshes afaik |
21:56.58 | JeffM | then your fix would be serverside only and work in in all client versions |
21:57.15 | JeffM | since you'd be fixing the UVs at meshification time |
21:57.17 | KaadmY | now i have to figure out how to make branches withgit :( |
21:58.00 | blast007 | are arcs sent as meshes? |
21:58.06 | KaadmY | i'd guess that are |
21:58.20 | KaadmY | no idea about how mesh objects are sent though |
21:58.26 | Juesto | how come most of the stuff in mountain crossing map do not appear on radar |
21:58.47 | JeffM | there should be a section in the code in bzfs where it reads the meshbox. from there it will add the mesh object to the world database |
21:58.53 | JeffM | you'd just modify the object before it's added |
22:00.51 | KaadmY | btw is there any release timeline for 2.5? |
22:01.30 | JeffM | you don't want to work on the new project? |
22:02.12 | KaadmY | which new project? |
22:02.25 | JeffM | THE new project |
22:02.28 | KaadmY | .. |
22:02.37 | KaadmY | that's what i'm asking ;_; |
22:02.40 | JeffM | as of yet unnamed super cool tank game |
22:02.50 | KaadmY | "unnamed super cool tank game" |
22:02.52 | JeffM | it was in the channel logs |
22:02.58 | KaadmY | ^ why i'm not planning on working on it :P |
22:03.18 | JeffM | stuff doesn't get magically made |
22:03.35 | JeffM | it's design is happening in another channel |
22:03.59 | the_map | JeffM: what channel> |
22:04.01 | the_map | * ? |
22:04.07 | JeffM | ##teamchillax |
22:04.15 | KaadmY | oh that one ;_; |
22:04.17 | the_map | ...right... |
22:04.57 | JeffM | everything has to start someone |
22:04.59 | JeffM | somewhere |
22:05.28 | Juesto | I wanted to know that too!!! |
22:05.31 | *** join/#bzflag Void7 (~NULL@205.157.147.198) |
22:06.02 | blast007 | arcs are sent differently than a mesh, I think. There is an ArcObstacle class with a pack/unpack method. And meshboxes are arcs, not meshes. |
22:06.28 | KaadmY | um wait |
22:06.32 | JeffM | arcs were before full meshes IIRC |
22:06.38 | KaadmY | meshboxes are sent as arcs? |
22:06.46 | JeffM | very straight arcs :) |
22:06.52 | JeffM | then your change will be client side |
22:07.00 | JeffM | or you can have bzfs change them to real meshes |
22:07.00 | KaadmY | darn |
22:07.01 | blast007 | whereas a mesh'ed box is a mesh |
22:07.22 | KaadmY | is it way too late to make arcs, meshboxes, meshpyrs etc sent as meshes? |
22:07.31 | KaadmY | and have meshgen on the server? |
22:07.33 | JeffM | this is why I prefer a unified geometry definition at the game level :) |
22:07.47 | blast007 | arcs do (un)pack 4 'texsize' values |
22:08.04 | blast007 | KaadmY: yes, far too late |
22:08.05 | JeffM | KaadmY: no that woudl be compatbile with old clients,. |
22:08.14 | blast007 | there will not be any more major updates to BZFlag |
22:08.18 | JeffM | late in the lifetime of bzflag, yes |
22:08.27 | JeffM | but not late in the map loading pipeline :) |
22:09.31 | KaadmY | groans |
22:09.41 | KaadmY | meshpyrs are cones with 4 divisions |
22:09.46 | JeffM | how long did it take for the last 2 point releases? |
22:10.52 | blast007 | JeffM: 2.4.2 was 2012-07-28, 2.4.4 was 2016-02-14, and 2.4.6 was 2016-06-26 |
22:11.29 | JeffM | so 2.4.6 was a "oh no we screwed up 2.4.4" ? |
22:11.30 | blast007 | 2.4.4 did have a lot of changes though |
22:11.45 | JeffM | or did it have planned features? |
22:11.50 | blast007 | 2.4.6 was mostly to fix Windows 10 with AMD crap |
22:11.54 | JeffM | yeah |
22:12.00 | JeffM | so fixes that didn't make it |
22:12.07 | blast007 | I was tired of holding off the release for that issue |
22:12.11 | Juesto | make 2.4.6.1 ? |
22:12.25 | blast007 | Juesto: why? |
22:12.27 | JeffM | read the version document |
22:12.42 | Juesto | re-release 2.4.6 ? |
22:12.46 | JeffM | so really you had 4 years between point releases |
22:12.48 | blast007 | Juesto: why? |
22:13.00 | JeffM | they added a few more features too, probalby things people threw in |
22:13.18 | JeffM | yeah it's just a number |
22:13.23 | JeffM | numbers are cheap :) |
22:13.39 | JeffM | but they all mean something |
22:13.40 | blast007 | 2.4.6 cleaned up some documentation and added a few things, yes |
22:14.56 | KaadmY | what's the last release? 2.4.6 or 2.4.7? |
22:14.59 | JeffM | that sounds like more then a "build system was busted" .1 release |
22:15.03 | blast007 | 2.4.6 |
22:15.27 | blast007 | JeffM: what does? |
22:15.31 | JeffM | 2.4.6 would be the last release. trunk would be .7 if the standard is still followd |
22:15.37 | JeffM | the features you added |
22:15.42 | JeffM | I just read the wiki |
22:16.31 | blast007 | switching from windows platform code to SDL2 is a pretty big change for a 'rebuild revision' |
22:16.32 | KaadmY | does anybody still host/play rubato ffa? |
22:16.36 | JeffM | when I wrote the first version doc, a .1 would be a "oh no, we had to repackage" release, where it's functionaly identical but some small problem was fixed. |
22:16.47 | JeffM | yeah, thats why I say .6 made sense |
22:17.09 | JeffM | you had bugs/features that didn't make it, not a build/package failure |
22:50.25 | KaadmY | AGH "statemachine.cpp:52:43: error: â<::â cannot begin a template-argument list [-fpermissive]" while compiling qt5 for the past 5 hours |
22:51.10 | blast007 | what are you compiling it on? |
22:51.18 | KaadmY | blast007: linux, debian-based distro |
22:51.29 | blast007 | I mean, what kind of CPU |
22:51.37 | KaadmY | CPU shouldn't matter |
22:51.45 | KaadmY | it's not compiling |
22:51.57 | blast007 | yes, CPU should affect how long it takes :P |
22:52.01 | KaadmY | no |
22:52.03 | KaadmY | ^ the error |
22:52.15 | blast007 | I'm asking about you complaining about how long it took |
22:52.22 | KaadmY | i wasn't really |
22:52.29 | KaadmY | ^ after 5 hours it wouldn't compile anyway |
22:52.33 | JeffM | linux! |
22:52.37 | KaadmY | JeffM: yup |
22:52.39 | Juesto | lol |
22:52.43 | JeffM | so much better it seems |
22:52.44 | KaadmY | candy! |
22:52.51 | KaadmY | candy and rainbows! |
22:53.00 | JeffM | and you are building QT5 to get what kind of performance increase? |
22:53.03 | blast007 | [15:31:04] < KaadmY> been compiling qt5 the whole day and it's still not finished |
22:53.11 | DTRemenak | should be able to stick a space between < and :: |
22:53.19 | KaadmY | i'll try that DTRemenak |
22:53.32 | KaadmY | JeffM: i'm building qt5 because it's not on this system |
22:53.33 | JeffM | it does incremental builds right? |
22:53.47 | JeffM | and you don't have a package manager with it? |
22:54.36 | KaadmY | package manager might have it |
22:54.39 | blast007 | apt install qt5-default |
22:54.46 | KaadmY | but if it does, it's an older version |
22:54.55 | JeffM | ahh bleeding edge |
22:55.11 | KaadmY | i don't mind the compile time |
22:55.30 | KaadmY | it actually doesn't slow this laptop down too much if i compile with 1 core |
22:55.42 | blast007 | is this your atom laptop? |
22:55.46 | KaadmY | no :P |
22:55.52 | KaadmY | Juesto has an atom laptop iirc |
22:55.53 | KaadmY | ' |
22:55.54 | zuii | oh my |
22:55.59 | blast007 | oh right |
22:56.17 | KaadmY | not wait 20 minutes for make to go through all the targets to see what's finished |
22:56.19 | KaadmY | now wait* |
22:56.24 | DTRemenak | remember to use parallel compilation. it's a lot faster. |
22:56.25 | Juesto | its a celeron and it works fine by the way |
22:56.33 | zuii | make -j8! |
22:56.51 | blast007 | Juesto: it's an atom branded as a celeron |
22:56.52 | JeffM | it's an atom dual core with a celelron sticker |
22:57.03 | Juesto | its a dual core one without hyperthreading |
22:57.10 | Juesto | and way faster than actual atom ones |
22:57.18 | JeffM | they made dual core atoms |
22:57.22 | JeffM | with 2 real cores |
22:57.23 | blast007 | Juesto: it *is* an actual atom |
22:57.24 | JeffM | I had one |
22:57.35 | blast007 | I've got a quad-core atom, even |
22:57.38 | KaadmY | DTRemenak: then i can't do anything else |
22:57.39 | JeffM | if a sticker changes things, then hell my car is a spaceship! |
22:57.46 | KaadmY | zuii: "make -j" ftw |
22:58.11 | DTRemenak | sure you can, that's what nice is for |
22:58.16 | JeffM | Juesto: the atom was getting a bad name, so they just rebranded the same silicon |
22:58.45 | JeffM | it's a fast atom, not a slow pentium |
22:58.48 | blast007 | I think the latest atoms have out-of-order execution, which might help them be a bit less crap |
22:58.56 | blast007 | but that one isn't one of those |
22:59.03 | JeffM | I'd think 2 real cores would be better then hyperthreading |
22:59.03 | Juesto | has PAE |
22:59.12 | Juesto | because its required since win8 |
22:59.14 | JeffM | but not a lot |
22:59.25 | JeffM | sure, so it's the current gen of the atom line |
22:59.30 | Juesto | downloads cpuz |
22:59.43 | JeffM | the inital celerons were downbined regular CPUs |
22:59.50 | JeffM | the atoms were designed for low power use |
22:59.51 | blast007 | Juesto: "PAE was first introduced in the Pentium Pro" so what's your point? :) |
23:00.01 | JeffM | that he can't run dos :) |
23:00.08 | Juesto | atoms dont have pae |
23:00.23 | blast007 | says who? |
23:00.43 | blast007 | I think every intel CPU since the Pentium Pro has had PAE |
23:00.55 | blast007 | there were some Pentium M's that said they didn't but actually did |
23:01.37 | JeffM | don't all 64 bit CPUs need it? |
23:03.17 | Juesto | "Bay Trail M" |
23:03.36 | JeffM | what one do you have? |
23:03.53 | Juesto | n8240 |
23:03.54 | KaadmY | DTRemenak: is "<::" a syntax error, or is it something that works in a newer version of GCC or something? |
23:03.59 | Juesto | 1170 bga |
23:04.21 | blast007 | http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/embedded/products/bay-trail/overview.html |
23:04.51 | zuii | "elivering outstanding compute, graphical, and media performance" :D |
23:05.28 | Juesto | http://imgur.com/mGOjGFt |
23:06.20 | JeffM | "Silvermont is a microarchitecture for low-power Atom, Celeron and Pentium branded processors " |
23:06.25 | JeffM | thats what you gots |
23:06.34 | blast007 | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvermont |
23:06.40 | Juesto | "Bay Trail-M" |
23:06.59 | KaadmY | Juesto: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvermont#Mobile_processors_.28Bay_Trail-M.29 |
23:07.02 | JeffM | yeah, silvermont is the archetecture |
23:07.15 | blast007 | so it looks like this *is* the one with out-of-order execution |
23:07.27 | JeffM | but atoms use the same arch |
23:07.56 | DTRemenak | KaadmY: newer version of GCC should handle it. there was a change in C++14 that makes it legal iirc |
23:07.58 | JeffM | basicly if it goes in a tablet they call it an atom, if it goes in a laptop they call it a celeron |
23:08.22 | blast007 | I've got a quad-core 1.33Ghz (1.83GHz Turbo) Bay Trail-T in my pocket-sized computer |
23:08.37 | blast007 | lags playing youtube videos |
23:08.41 | KaadmY | DTRemenak: ah, thanks. i have gcc 4.7.2 |
23:09.13 | JeffM | yeah Juesto you've got an atom with a sticker on it because it passed the celeron tests |
23:09.28 | JeffM | it is not a slowed down i3, it's a peped up tablet CPU. |
23:09.39 | blast007 | no, it's just that 'celeron' and 'pentium' have no meaning anymore |
23:09.45 | Juesto | doesnt really lags for youtube really |
23:09.54 | blast007 | they've slapped those labels on all kinds of CPUs |
23:10.00 | Juesto | it does bzflag at a fair fps |
23:10.01 | JeffM | blast007: looks like it was binned slightly higher then the atom CPUs too |
23:10.09 | JeffM | true, celleron means "budget" |
23:10.18 | JeffM | it's a brand name, not an archetecture in itself |
23:10.38 | JeffM | Juesto: cool so it runs as well as an SGI machine from 1995 |
23:10.41 | JeffM | congrats |
23:10.47 | Juesto | the sticker just reads "Intel inside" |
23:11.02 | *** join/#bzflag disco- (~disco@unaffiliated/disco-) |
23:11.24 | JeffM | heh, the ENTIRE line of celerons with that arch cost the same from intel |
23:11.27 | JeffM | 107$ |
23:12.31 | JeffM | probalby because they could |
23:12.50 | JeffM | the 2.2 ghz atom with nearly identical perfomance is listed at 37$ |
23:13.40 | JeffM | but yours has a turbo button |
23:13.48 | JeffM | so it's clearly better |
23:13.50 | Juesto | whose |
23:13.59 | JeffM | you CPU will burst |
23:14.09 | JeffM | up to 2.5 if the bios lets it |
23:14.17 | Juesto | does turbo yeah... |
23:14.40 | Juesto | but with speedstep disabled it is 2.16ghz btw |
23:14.58 | JeffM | yes, that's it's 7.5w TWP setting |
23:15.01 | JeffM | for power use |
23:16.12 | JeffM | oof, a total of 1x4 PCI lanes |
23:16.50 | JeffM | I wonder how yours is configured |
23:17.19 | JeffM | do you have a SSD in it? |
23:17.22 | Juesto | o |
23:17.24 | Juesto | no |
23:17.29 | Juesto | pavilon x360 |
23:17.38 | Juesto | brought march 2015 |
23:17.45 | JeffM | how big is the hard drive? |
23:17.50 | Juesto | 500gb |
23:18.20 | JeffM | for not more than 400$ I hope |
23:18.52 | blast007 | probably less than 400, since the x360 with a Pentium is $430 right now |
23:19.01 | Juesto | 8k ARS |
23:19.19 | Juesto | AR$* |
23:19.35 | JeffM | 540$ usd |
23:19.48 | JeffM | stuff does cost more outside the US, it's sad |
23:20.05 | blast007 | exchange rate varies too |
23:20.05 | Juesto | march 2015 |
23:20.19 | Juesto | and some cheap stuff is cheaper at argentina for example |
23:20.24 | Juesto | like usb cables |
23:20.54 | JeffM | so less then a dollar? |
23:21.18 | Juesto | no, but slightly less than in us |
23:21.40 | JeffM | I get them from monoprice and don't spend more then a few dollars |
23:21.44 | JeffM | USB, HDMI |
23:22.28 | JeffM | nobody needs the silly gold ones |
23:22.31 | Juesto | damnit, i have a inspiron 11 3000 series stuck on "Just a moment" |
23:22.52 | Juesto | brand new and stuck after completing oobe |
23:23.00 | Juesto | no network access |
23:23.11 | Juesto | has wifi connected but ap isolation |
23:23.33 | Juesto | i am at a condo |
23:23.48 | blast007 | that's good to know |
23:24.03 | JeffM | notes it in the log |
23:24.19 | the_map | I'm glad I have IRC logs turned on |
23:24.21 | Juesto | and its just stuck... rebooted it and what was blue now turned purple |
23:24.23 | the_map | with timestamps even |
23:24.25 | Juesto | lol |
23:24.32 | Juesto | im the opposite :D |
23:24.48 | Juesto | all off even irssi away |
23:25.10 | blast007 | *blip* stardate -307597.72, Juesto is at a condo |
23:25.21 | JeffM | soon we'll be able to get weapons lock |
23:25.22 | Juesto | Vacations... |
23:25.45 | blast007 | or maybe it's 70597.72 |
23:25.50 | Juesto | at usa |
23:25.59 | the_map | oh, USA? |
23:26.08 | Juesto | Vacations dude |
23:26.09 | JeffM | you got off at the USA bus stop? |
23:26.20 | the_map | it's definitely stardate 4502325.882 then |
23:26.28 | blast007 | or 94200.9 |
23:26.29 | Juesto | stop sarcasm please |
23:26.30 | JeffM | they have a nice hotdog stand there |
23:26.36 | the_map | DST is pretty bad in the US |
23:26.47 | Juesto | at fl lol |
23:26.54 | the_map | oh, florida |
23:27.01 | JeffM | my condolences |
23:27.03 | the_map | subtract 3 from the standard stardate |
23:44.15 | *** join/#bzflag Void7 (~NULL@205.157.147.198) |
23:46.24 | Juesto | -_- |
23:46.53 | the_map | no |
23:46.55 | the_map | that's a 7 |
23:47.01 | the_map | 3 is .:_ |
23:47.08 | Juesto | WTF? |
23:47.36 | KaadmY | no, wrong the_map |
23:47.40 | KaadmY | 3 is .::._ |
23:47.48 | the_map | no that's 12 |
23:47.49 | KaadmY | and 42 is :_: |