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| 13:39.42 | AresHandler | help I can't join apocalypse it says "Game is full or over. Try again later." |
| 13:39.50 | AresHandler | but it is not full or over and I cannot even join observermode |
| 13:40.14 | Delusional | I'll look at it |
| 13:40.16 | AresHandler | goes into withdrawl |
| 13:40.46 | AresHandler | i need to shoot up some tanks soon or i will get the shakes |
| 13:43.56 | Delusional | 25 players, 24 observers |
| 13:44.17 | Delusional | game is full. I can't get on the server either |
| 13:44.21 | AresHandler | I show 15/200 players |
| 13:44.26 | AresHandler | and 7/100 red, 6/100 green |
| 13:44.28 | AresHandler | 2/60 observer |
| 13:46.00 | Delusional | thats not what i see |
| 13:46.39 | AresHandler | now it is 9/200 players |
| 13:46.45 | AresHandler | 5/100 red, 2/100 green, 2/60 observers |
| 13:50.39 | AresHandler | http://imagebin.org/300981 |
| 13:50.54 | AresHandler | down to 6 now |
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| 14:06.13 | Delusional | AresHandler: try port 4204 |
| 14:07.43 | tbe | yeah that works |
| 14:08.04 | tbe | cool scenery too |
| 14:17.37 | Delusional | we got major problems... MoFO will return after an unspecified outage. |
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| 14:19.11 | tbe | can we play that progressive flag map for a bit |
| 14:19.19 | tbe | that was good mayhem |
| 14:21.31 | Delusional | the problem isn't with bzfs, it's somewhere else on the machine. |
| 14:21.42 | tbe | ghost in the shell |
| 14:25.05 | tbe | It's a unix system. I know this. |
| 14:25.09 | tbe | I just have to find the right file. |
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| 16:06.50 | Delusional | tbe: we're back: for now |
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| 18:33.05 | brad | any ideas about stopping someone flooding a server with connections to fill all the player slots? |
| 18:33.31 | brad | would http://allejo.me/projects/bzflag/plugins/connectionsperip/ work or is that just for actual players? |
| 18:33.47 | brad | they aren't joining as players, just 'connections' |
| 18:34.24 | blast007 | afaik, the plugin API only gets full player joins, not just a socket connection |
| 18:34.39 | brad | figures |
| 18:35.04 | brad | 2014-03-22 18:18:07: Player [199] accept() from 186.150.*.*:50647 on 204 |
| 18:35.05 | brad | 2014-03-22 18:18:07: Player [199] submitted reverse resolve query |
| 18:35.05 | blast007 | let me check when bz_eAllowPlayer gets called |
| 18:35.19 | brad | 2014-03-22 18:18:08: all slots occupied, rejecting accept() from 186.150.*.*:50648 on 205 |
| 18:36.12 | blast007 | yep, seems bz_eAllowPlayer is called only when a player tries to join the game, not just when a connection is initiated |
| 18:36.22 | Constitution | how about a firewall rule? |
| 18:36.55 | brad | Constitution: that would work, but a lot of effort to put on every server rather than just fixing it :p |
| 18:37.19 | brad | it shouldn't keep a connection alive if they don't join as a player |
| 18:38.26 | Constitution | true |
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| 18:39.05 | brad | right now he's got non-player connections open for nearly 30 mins |
| 18:39.53 | brad | and as a result of that (I think): 2014-03-22 18:34:57: File transfer terminated with error from libcurl 7 : Failed connect to my.BZFlag.org:80; Bad file descriptor |
| 18:41.05 | Constitution | in theory simply dropping a connection won't stop an attacker from just opening a new one |
| 18:41.23 | brad | true |
| 18:41.45 | brad | need some sort of rate limiting perhaps? |
| 18:42.01 | Constitution | which is why a firewall rule that blocks an IP after so many simultaneous connections sounds more effective? or some kind of similar functionality in bzfs |
| 18:42.02 | brad | or a config option to limit connections per ip |
| 18:43.16 | brad | it seems to be similar to: http://docs.cpanel.net/twiki/bin/view/EasyApache/Apache/SlowlorisAttacks |
| 18:46.45 | allejo | woah o.o |
| 18:46.49 | brad | iptables -I INPUT -p udp -m udp -m connlimit --connlimit-above 5 -j REJECT |
| 18:47.04 | brad | that should limit to 5 udp connections per IP |
| 18:52.24 | kierra | he also uses several proxies |
| 18:53.09 | Constitution | do we have any idea who this person is if he's been around before? |
| 18:53.34 | allejo | is this the same dominican republic guy? |
| 18:54.02 | kierra | yes the DR guy |
| 18:54.48 | kierra | says he's been around for about a year |
| 18:55.20 | kierra | Constitution: he's the same tanker that Troy posted about in gu @ forum |
| 18:55.39 | kierra | same that ddos mofo last aug/sept |
| 18:58.20 | allejo | attacker's on mofo atm |
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| 18:59.46 | kierra | He told me he will continue to crash servers until WarPig unbans him on all the servers he banned him on |
| 19:00.06 | allejo | ah so that's how he's involved with war pig |
| 19:00.29 | kierra | wp banned him wherever he's @ on |
| 19:00.38 | kierra | and rightly so.... |
| 19:00.50 | kierra | he has 2 clients....one legit, one with cheats |
| 19:01.56 | kierra | his first nick was wuiii |
| 19:02.12 | kierra | he has a couple other reg'd nicks |
| 19:02.58 | kierra | ICE COLD BEER 56675 |
| 19:04.59 | allejo | so this guy isn't actually ddos'ing the server, he's opening dummy player connections? |
| 19:07.31 | kierra | isnt the effect the same |
| 19:07.37 | kierra | we cant join the server |
| 19:08.13 | Snake12534 | why do players hack bzflag? |
| 19:08.15 | allejo | not entirely sure, if he's just attacking the game wouldn't that still leave ssh access? |
| 19:08.21 | kierra | idk what he did last fall. but we all experienced huge lag and the server 'kicked' all players |
| 19:08.34 | kierra | Snake12534: why do players cheat? |
| 19:08.35 | allejo | Snake12534, because they have no lives and they think they're so cool for hacking a game with 30 players on |
| 19:09.35 | JeffM | Normal Person + Anonimity + Audience = D**kwad |
| 19:10.15 | JeffM | the simple answer is because he can |
| 19:10.50 | Snake12534 | I personally see no real point in hacking a game for no apparent reason. |
| 19:10.58 | JeffM | he has a reason |
| 19:11.05 | JeffM | it just doesn't make sense to you, it makes sense to him |
| 19:11.36 | JeffM | if he's just connecting and not sending a join all you can really do is disco after a specific timeout |
| 19:11.44 | JeffM | but even then it's still easy to fill a server |
| 19:12.07 | JeffM | so unless the connections can be uniquly identified there isn't much else to do |
| 19:12.54 | JeffM | Change server ports and mod the list server to not give him an updated list |
| 19:14.07 | allejo | no way to drop the connection if there have been too many timeouts? |
| 19:14.21 | JeffM | are they coming from the same IP? |
| 19:14.28 | JeffM | if so you can firewall them |
| 19:14.35 | JeffM | but my guess is they arn't linked |
| 19:14.57 | JeffM | if you can link multiple connections to the same IP in bzfs, you can do the same thing at the firewall level :) |
| 19:15.03 | JeffM | but yeah you could keep a list |
| 19:15.06 | JeffM | it'd be pretty easy |
| 19:15.53 | JeffM | it's a DDOS attack, just like any other |
| 19:16.01 | JeffM | it's just connection based, not bandwith based |
| 19:16.45 | JeffM | it's just very easy with bzflag's slot based system |
| 19:17.02 | allejo | logs show just one unique IP with the attack earlier today |
| 19:17.16 | JeffM | then block that at the firewall |
| 19:17.17 | JeffM | done deal |
| 19:17.22 | allejo | already did |
| 19:17.29 | JeffM | then no big deal |
| 19:17.35 | kierra | allejo, cant join pocklips? |
| 19:17.41 | JeffM | internet admin 101 :) |
| 19:17.52 | allejo | kierra, it's laggy |
| 19:18.05 | Constitution | there's like 200 slots, right? |
| 19:18.09 | JeffM | ish |
| 19:18.24 | JeffM | I don't remember what ID the server player IS |
| 19:18.28 | JeffM | it's from 1 to whatever that is |
| 19:18.29 | brad | mine crapped out at 200 |
| 19:18.38 | JeffM | then that's probalby the server player ID |
| 19:19.11 | kierra | this is like what happened last fall on mofo |
| 19:19.50 | JeffM | welcome to hosting packets on the unregulated internets :) |
| 19:19.52 | allejo | 0-252 i think. 253-256 are other things. 253 is server |
| 19:20.10 | JeffM | there may also be a limit to how many sockets we listen for |
| 19:21.23 | JeffM | I mean it's super easy to DDOS a server, if they run fastmap just flood that URL |
| 19:21.49 | allejo | url of the map? |
| 19:21.52 | JeffM | yeah |
| 19:22.00 | JeffM | anyone running fastmap is accepting HTTP conenctions |
| 19:22.11 | allejo | ah makes sense |
| 19:22.12 | JeffM | it won't take a slot but it'll take a connection |
| 19:22.27 | JeffM | slots arn't assigned untill you identify as BZFS proto |
| 19:22.49 | JeffM | personaly I'd make all inital connections in a thread and pool them untill they IDed by protocol |
| 19:22.58 | JeffM | then shunt the socket to the game or hosting systems |
| 19:23.15 | JeffM | then dead connections don't affect anything, they just hang out in the connection thread doing nothing |
| 19:23.21 | JeffM | then it's just ram |
| 19:24.24 | allejo | so at the point, too many connections will take up ram |
| 19:24.44 | JeffM | yeah but that'd be a huge ammount of connections |
| 19:25.05 | JeffM | and then you can have seperate rules for timeout based on how many dead connections you have |
| 19:25.08 | JeffM | so it could be dynamic |
| 19:25.19 | JeffM | it'd timeout connections faster if there were more waiting |
| 19:25.36 | JeffM | foil the attacker but still letting in people who ID quickly |
| 19:25.45 | JeffM | since they would not count in the dead pool |
| 19:25.54 | allejo | how hard would it be to write into bzfs? |
| 19:26.10 | JeffM | I'd be a decent refactoring of the networking backend |
| 19:26.23 | JeffM | and we don't have much experience with cross platform threading |
| 19:26.28 | JeffM | so it'd be a sizeable project |
| 19:27.19 | allejo | wee cross platform threading |
| 19:27.36 | JeffM | yeah it's not fun with out a lib or newer versions of C++ |
| 19:27.42 | dngor | That's when a thread accidentally writes to the wrong platform, right? |
| 19:27.55 | JeffM | no |
| 19:28.03 | JeffM | that's getting threads to work on all the different computer platforms |
| 19:28.06 | dngor | (p.s; i know what it is) |
| 19:28.10 | JeffM | ahh |
| 19:28.12 | allejo | lol |
| 19:28.56 | allejo | i take it we can't use a lib because bz's so archaic? |
| 19:29.10 | JeffM | no |
| 19:29.13 | JeffM | we could use a lib |
| 19:29.18 | JeffM | the one that woudl make the most sense is boost |
| 19:29.27 | JeffM | we use libs all the time |
| 19:29.46 | JeffM | or we could convert all platforms to SDL 2 and us it's threading wraper |
| 19:29.50 | allejo | ohhh boost |
| 19:29.51 | JeffM | there are many choices |
| 19:29.55 | JeffM | it's all very possible |
| 19:29.58 | JeffM | it's just not trivial |
| 19:30.04 | allejo | meh |
| 19:30.17 | JeffM | It'd probably break protocl too |
| 19:30.36 | allejo | oh yay 2.6 |
| 19:30.47 | JeffM | I know how I'd do it in managed code, not sure how well sockets go between threads in non managed code |
| 19:31.17 | JeffM | I'd have a pool of connection ports that redirected to a game port |
| 19:31.25 | JeffM | and had super short timeouts |
| 19:31.31 | JeffM | theyd fire back the redirect then close |
| 19:31.50 | JeffM | then you could have multiple "banks" of connection threads for as many people as needed |
| 19:32.23 | JeffM | for HTTP redir them to another port |
| 19:32.32 | JeffM | then throw all the HTTP stuff into it's own thread |
| 19:33.25 | JeffM | but then you'd have to make the NetConnector class thread safe |
| 19:33.32 | JeffM | and all the acccess to it thread safe |
| 19:33.37 | JeffM | possible but not trivial |
| 19:33.45 | allejo | got lost |
| 19:34.09 | JeffM | so each thread is going to have a maxium number of connections it can handle right? |
| 19:35.30 | JeffM | so if you want to be able to handle more then that number of connections in a single game you need to split the connections up across different threads |
| 19:35.50 | JeffM | but it's hard to have connection threads like that all work on the same port |
| 19:35.56 | JeffM | so you make a 2 tier system |
| 19:36.19 | JeffM | first tier is the public connection thread, it's whats listening on 5154 or whatever |
| 19:36.41 | JeffM | any connection to that first figures out it's protocll, then fires back a redirect to some other port |
| 19:37.04 | JeffM | a temporary port that the tier 2 threads are listening on |
| 19:37.15 | JeffM | then you can split your connections up a lot easier |
| 19:37.51 | JeffM | so on a server with 1000 players, you end up with 4 250 player conenction threads, and one 250 connection HTTP thread |
| 19:38.33 | JeffM | you could even make the public thread give out a random key to the player connections on redirect so the player thread can know if they are cool or not |
| 19:39.52 | JeffM | the redirect method lets it scale up huge, you could redirect player groups to other physical internal servers that just handle player conneciton, and get sim data from a centeral gamestate server |
| 19:39.59 | JeffM | but then bzflag is a MMO :) |
| 19:41.20 | JeffM | goes to get foods |
| 19:44.35 | allejo | woah that makes sense |
| 19:44.43 | allejo | i don't see how mmo would be bad for bz :p |
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| 20:02.28 | khonkhortisan | A bzflag mmo could combine multiple plugins, with a segmented spawn algorithm, so one section of the map is an obstacle course, another is a league, another is open play. |
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| 20:48.54 | JeffM | khonkhortisan, for that I'd make a single server host multiple "rooms" |
| 20:49.17 | JeffM | there would be no gameplay reason for those 2 groups to interact, so just make them be in there own sim instances |
| 20:49.30 | JeffM | and then shunt tanks from instance to instance |
| 20:49.50 | JeffM | allejo, the current gameplay breaks down for large player counts |
| 20:49.59 | JeffM | so the reason would be for rooms and instancing |
| 20:50.12 | JeffM | you'd need fewer servers and those servers could host multiple games |
| 20:51.23 | JeffM | you could even give players a GUI to spawn instances and invite players |
| 20:52.12 | JeffM | so in a large FFA game, it's time for a GU match, you fire up a GU compliant instance on the server and invite the teams. They all pop into the private instance, match, then respawn back in the FFA when it's over |
| 21:02.59 | allejo | ohhhhhh i see what you mean by an mmo now |
| 21:03.10 | JeffM | Massivly Multiplayer Online |
| 21:03.44 | JeffM | Where you can have a scaleable backend networking that services more players then you'd have in a traditional game |
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