| 00:05.52 | joevano | blast007: yep looks like I will have to import the entire svn repo, clone the repo, and then prune out everything that isn't wanted and rewrite the history |
| 00:06.02 | joevano | shouldn't be terribly bad |
| 00:06.20 | blast007 | ah, you can remove stuff from history? |
| 00:06.30 | joevano | pruning will make it just go away |
| 00:06.46 | blast007 | don't let the NSA know about that or they'll put a stop to it. |
| 00:08.56 | BulletCatcher | The downside of forking is that we don't have the people resources to support two projects. |
| 00:08.59 | BulletCatcher | If you commit to the fork, blast007, BZFlag will die when you stop supporting it web/database server unless someone steps up to keep it going. |
| 00:09.24 | blast007 | you say that like it's a bad thing |
| 00:09.52 | blast007 | in any case, I think the point was to just move everyone to the new game |
| 00:10.35 | BulletCatcher | If we're only going to support one project, I fail to see how changing the name and the repo will make a real difference in the quality of people's contributions. |
| 00:11.49 | blast007 | well, how does trying this hurt? If the fork fails, then we could just come back to this. |
| 00:11.57 | joevano | i fail to see how not doing *something* will keep the project alive |
| 00:12.33 | blast007 | the good thing about a fork is that we're not "killing the project with changes" - it's a different project, with different expectations |
| 00:13.24 | joevano | and it is different leadership... or actually having a leader at the top |
| 00:13.36 | BulletCatcher | What expectations could realistically be met with a new project that can't be met in our existing framework? |
| 00:13.50 | blast007 | Yeah... it's rather demoralizing with the current management heirachy... |
| 00:14.31 | BulletCatcher | Tim hasn't been our leader for a long time. Stop pretending otherwise. |
| 00:14.47 | BulletCatcher | He controls the domains and the copyright, but that's it. |
| 00:14.55 | *** join/#bzflag drizzo4shizzo (~dan@pool-72-83-136-195.washdc.fios.verizon.net) |
| 00:18.01 | BulletCatcher | *We* *are* the BZFlag project leaders, and I don't see how a new game name and a new repo are going to allow us to do anything we can't do now. |
| 00:18.57 | blast007 | Oh right, yeah, I forgot. He only controls a core piece of our infrastructure. Totally unimportant in the grand scheme of things. |
| 00:20.17 | blast007 | We only need 66% of the name servers to work, right? |
| 00:21.23 | joevano | he wasn't keen on the wiki when I approached him to add DNS entries, had to tack it on as a subdirectory initially |
| 00:21.34 | BulletCatcher | I don't want to trivialize the importance of DNS, but if we had full control of it we still wouldn't have the motivation to do all of the other things that you are saying a fork will enable. |
| 00:22.15 | joevano | i don't agree with that... that is one possible outcome but not the only possibility |
| 00:23.18 | BulletCatcher | joevano, tell me how your contributions to a fork would be different from your current contributions to BZFlag. |
| 00:24.14 | joevano | a fork will say that there are people who still care... I am doing more things now than I have in the past year... was actually thinking of just leaving |
| 00:24.19 | joevano | there was no point |
| 00:24.49 | joevano | there is no point |
| 00:25.12 | BulletCatcher | Please answer my question. The more specific you can be, the more it will meet my need for information. |
| 00:25.28 | joevano | a fork will at least initially generate some interest and give us a possibility to grow |
| 00:26.31 | joevano | currently there is no interest and growing something from nothing is quite a bit harder than starting with a push |
| 00:26.44 | blast007 | For me, I think it's just the fact that Tim still has any part of this that bothers me. I don't even know the word for it or how to describe it exactly. Feels like I'm just handing my work to someone who doesn't give a crap about the game anymore, but won't let go of it. |
| 00:26.59 | joevano | yep |
| 00:28.43 | blast007 | I asked him if he would sell us the domains. He answered my question with "it might help to understand what problem we are trying to solve." |
| 00:29.47 | blast007 | so whatever. he isn't going to give us those. So let's just find some new ones. |
| 00:30.56 | joevano | his negative/non-comments have killed several initiatives that would potentially have helped the project move in new directions |
| 00:31.42 | joevano | he likes it the way it is... do you BulletCatcher? because it won't/can't change if it remains BZFlag IMO |
| 00:32.39 | joevano | and yes this is a leadership issue for me |
| 00:32.54 | blast007 | Heck, I recall on at least one occasion in the past where several of the developers had a public discussion about the implementation of a feature here in the IRC channel. A well thought out plan. We code it up, commit it, and then he comes and reverts it. He wasn't even involved in the discussion. |
| 00:32.54 | joevano | always has been |
| 00:33.18 | blast007 | Not that he couldn't have been, but he wasn't involved in discussions. Too busy with other stuff I guess. |
| 00:33.37 | blast007 | Great way to encourage contributions to the project. |
| 00:35.19 | BulletCatcher | I'm a stick in the mud, and fairly content with the status quo. |
| 00:35.21 | BulletCatcher | That doesn't mean I am unwilling to participate in possibly significant changes to the game, but I am skeptical that the group of us have the motivation to make it happen. |
| 00:36.07 | BulletCatcher | I don't consider a new name and a new repo to be "significant" changes. |
| 00:39.43 | BulletCatcher | Whatever Tim may have (un)done in the past, he seems to be so little involved now that I see little risk of him interfering with any gameplay changes we choose to make. |
| 00:41.20 | BulletCatcher | If that were to happen again then that would be a good reason to fork. |
| 00:44.59 | joevano | but how do others know that there isn't a possibility of him stepping in again... leaving him at the top will not give us the posibility of regaining those who have left |
| 00:45.54 | joevano | this is all about possibilities... the current game is dead and cold |
| 00:46.17 | blast007 | Like I said, it's more of a mental thing for me. He doesn't have to DO anything to make me still feel this way. |
| 00:46.21 | BulletCatcher | You wouldn't say that if you had been at the Chesval Cup match today, joevano. |
| 00:46.43 | joevano | oh... I didn't say the community |
| 00:47.27 | blast007 | but that's a good example, really. What brings people out to participate? Something new. Something different. So why could a fork of the game not do the same? |
| 00:47.53 | BulletCatcher | New and different doesn't necessarily last. |
| 00:48.23 | BulletCatcher | Playing levels will be back to normal tomorrow, I am sure. |
| 00:48.36 | JeffM | how high did it get? |
| 00:49.09 | BulletCatcher | The player list went off the bottom of my screen in the first match. |
| 00:49.17 | BulletCatcher | player + observer |
| 00:49.19 | JeffM | so more then 30? |
| 00:49.42 | BulletCatcher | It was 10v10, plus probably 30+ observers. |
| 00:49.51 | JeffM | Im just curious since you used it as a point in your argument |
| 00:50.21 | BulletCatcher | I was just trying to counter joevano's "dead and cold" comment. |
| 00:50.51 | BulletCatcher | He says it wasn't about the community, but he hasn't said what it *is* about. |
| 00:51.11 | JeffM | developers, developer, developers, developers! |
| 00:51.26 | joevano | it's about development... something needs to change to spark it... |
| 00:51.58 | joevano | and the lack of development IS killing the community |
| 00:53.24 | joevano | the game has been stagnent for years... the community that is still around the game hasn't realized the heart has died (or they have and are ignoring it for now) |
| 00:53.38 | BulletCatcher | The lack of development is merely failing to attract new players who need novelty. |
| 00:54.16 | BulletCatcher | What, exactly, is the "heart" of BZFlag? |
| 00:54.27 | joevano | development |
| 00:54.31 | JeffM | lag |
| 00:54.47 | BulletCatcher | For me, it is playing the game. |
| 00:55.59 | blast007 | well, you're welcome to play the new game as well |
| 00:56.14 | BulletCatcher | For others like me, further development is not at all necessary to continue playing the game. |
| 00:56.47 | joevano | but it is a major point for many |
| 00:57.15 | BulletCatcher | It is clearly important to you, joevano. I don't know who else you can be relied upon to speak for. |
| 00:57.30 | blast007 | if you think that the lack of development doesn't affect the community and the players, then you are mistaken |
| 00:57.47 | BulletCatcher | Tell me more. |
| 00:57.57 | blast007 | I mean, we don't even have a killcam yet. |
| 00:58.07 | BulletCatcher | heh |
| 00:58.26 | joevano | without growth and change everytthing dies |
| 00:58.36 | JeffM | a serious example of that was the lag in getting the debian package out, that effected some segment of the community |
| 00:58.40 | blast007 | but no, I think it creates a perception in the players that we don't care about it anymore, and it makes them not care about it |
| 00:58.56 | JeffM | we eventualy solved it but for a while it just sat there |
| 00:59.40 | blast007 | can't say we've completely solved that yet either |
| 01:00.05 | JeffM | it's been solved as much as it has been in the past when Tim did them |
| 01:00.23 | BulletCatcher | A new game name and a new repo won't make it any easier to get software distributed by Debian. |
| 01:00.40 | blast007 | I actually just wiped my only Debian system today because I couldn't get the capture card working. Put Windows back on it. |
| 01:01.06 | blast007 | BulletCatcher: would it make it harder though? |
| 01:01.06 | JeffM | it won't make it any harder, I fear the eventual solution is to not use debian for distrobution |
| 01:01.12 | joevano | BulletCatcher: how will not forking save the game |
| 01:01.30 | blast007 | maybe we just need to save the cheerleader |
| 01:02.11 | blast007 | JeffM: or we host our own repos for the game |
| 01:02.22 | blast007 | set up a build farm |
| 01:02.33 | JeffM | yes that's what I mean, not using the debian servers for the repo |
| 01:02.37 | blast007 | k |
| 01:02.54 | JeffM | our own repo is using apt, but not debian |
| 01:03.19 | joevano | easy enough to do and that is becoming way more common |
| 01:03.42 | blast007 | not the way Debian prefers, of course ;) |
| 01:04.03 | JeffM | I don't think they have a solution for multi-player games |
| 01:04.11 | joevano | just provide a ppa |
| 01:04.14 | JeffM | well one exists but they don't like it |
| 01:04.17 | JeffM | it's called steam |
| 01:04.22 | blast007 | debian doesn't do PPAs |
| 01:04.32 | blast007 | and steam doesn't really install too easily on Debian ;) |
| 01:04.40 | blast007 | the installer is designed for Ubuntu |
| 01:04.42 | DTRemenak | I'm really hating this "those players"/"us developers" divide that y'all seem to be taking for granted. Users are the most important developers for open source software. Scratch your own itches and all. |
| 01:04.46 | joevano | don't they... i switched from debian 3 or 4 years ago |
| 01:05.01 | JeffM | and you think they could not make it work on debian? |
| 01:05.18 | BulletCatcher | Hi, DTRemenak. Thanks for joining the conversation. |
| 01:05.19 | blast007 | no, it's just different package dependencies |
| 01:05.35 | blast007 | and for a while it was an i386 package only |
| 01:06.07 | blast007 | (which can work with multiarch support in apt/dpkg) |
| 01:07.07 | joevano | DTRemenak: agreed... and development sparks player interest, which sparks development, which sparks,,, |
| 01:07.11 | BulletCatcher | As someone who both plays and develops, the us/them thing doesn't work well for me, either. |
| 01:07.31 | DTRemenak | joevano: what development would you, as a player, like to see? |
| 01:08.06 | *** join/#bzflag rathis_ (~rathis@2.222.101.48) |
| 01:08.38 | joevano | the big ones are those that are the hard ones... lag compensation, smart servers, etc |
| 01:09.12 | DTRemenak | joevano: so...how will forking help get those things done? is there a developer who's willing to commit to work on those things on a fork? |
| 01:10.08 | joevano | i don't know... but there isn't one here now and if it doesn't change overthere then so be it |
| 01:10.28 | joevano | but it definately isn't going to happen here |
| 01:10.53 | DTRemenak | oh, so it's just a "grass is greener" thing? |
| 01:11.17 | DTRemenak | 'cause the only reason I can see that it's not happening here is because you all (who can actually do it) are convinced it won't happen here |
| 01:11.26 | joevano | maybe... but I really don't think I am alone in those feelings |
| 01:13.18 | blast007 | DTRemenak: so you're saying we should just go to a psychiatrist instead of forking? |
| 01:13.46 | DTRemenak | blast007: if you're proposing to fork "because feelings", well, yeah |
| 01:13.56 | DTRemenak | if you want a fork to be active, you MUST have something CONCRETE that makes the fork superior to the original in the eyes of your users. |
| 01:13.57 | blast007 | heh |
| 01:14.41 | DTRemenak | egcs succeeded because they were able to get past the bureaucracy in gcc to implement actual new features |
| 01:15.28 | blast007 | but they forked |
| 01:15.39 | blast007 | so did the fork help them get over that, or would they have anyway? |
| 01:15.44 | DTRemenak | yes, I was using them as an example of a successful fork |
| 01:16.24 | DTRemenak | they didn't fork to change the name, or the repository, or who owned the dns. they forked because they had written patches that the maintainers WOULD NOT ACCEPT, but were desired by the USERS. |
| 01:16.46 | blast007 | well, the fork was going to initially start out improving the user experience end of the game |
| 01:17.33 | DTRemenak | go look at just about any other successful fork, and you'll find the same thing...the remainder (Xorg, LibreOffice) are almost entirely licensing, and I don't see any proposal to change licensing. |
| 01:17.51 | DTRemenak | blast007: how? |
| 01:18.25 | DTRemenak | what parts of the user experience are active players complaining about, and how will you address those? |
| 01:18.32 | blast007 | well, we were gonna add this magic fairy that would fly around your tank yelling "hey! listen!" every 5 seconds when it had some new info to tell you |
| 01:18.44 | DTRemenak | you should make it a paper clip :) |
| 01:19.11 | blast007 | "It looks like you're trying to capture the enemy flag? Would you like some help with that?" |
| 01:19.49 | blast007 | well, actually, it was written up in my plan for BZFlag 2.6 |
| 01:19.53 | DTRemenak | or holographic representation of the player's dead girlfriend trapped inside a flying cursor, because that worked out so well for Anachronox ;) |
| 01:20.20 | blast007 | http://wiki.bzflag.org/DevelopmentPlans/2.6.0 |
| 01:21.01 | blast007 | again, there's not any *technical* restrictions preventing us from just doing that here |
| 01:21.41 | blast007 | but I fear the mindset of this existing environment is more of a hinderance to progress than anything else |
| 01:22.08 | DTRemenak | so rather than changing the mindset, you want to change the environment, and expect the mindset to change magically? |
| 01:22.29 | blast007 | sure :) |
| 01:22.36 | DTRemenak | ok, have fun with that :) |
| 01:23.01 | blast007 | if we're wrong about the whole thing, then the fork will go nowhere and die like the majority of forks |
| 01:24.03 | blast007 | I wasn't going to "pull the plug" on BZFlag as soon as we started the fork. The fork was going to start out with just a development database on a separate VM. |
| 01:24.44 | blast007 | If the fork was/is successful, then we can consider the ramifications of migrating the data and players to the new game. |
| 01:24.52 | blast007 | consider/discuss* |
| 01:25.04 | DTRemenak | sure...like I said, have fun with that. forking is part of the natural process for open source projects. I'm not sufficiently convinced to come help you, but you're probably not missing much by that ;) |
| 01:25.40 | *** join/#bzflag swigg (~swigg@68-119-228-196.dhcp.ahvl.nc.charter.com) |
| 01:25.40 | *** join/#bzflag swigg (~swigg@bzflag/player/Swigg) |
| 01:26.10 | blast007 | :) |
| 01:30.12 | BulletCatcher | Using a separate database when developing some of the proposed changes is a good idea whether or not we fork. |
| 01:31.30 | blast007 | well, I'd kinda have to, since I planned to try using PostgreSQL instead of MySQL ;) |
| 01:31.52 | DTRemenak | sure, and using a different hosting environment/toolset is not a bad idea either. I don't think anyone is particularly happy with where SF is going. |
| 01:32.45 | JeffM | can you rename a repo on bitbucket? |
| 01:33.18 | blast007 | yep |
| 01:40.22 | BulletCatcher | I don't have a strong preference for the flavor of source code management system we use, nor for any particular 3rd party hoster. |
| 01:40.24 | BulletCatcher | If you guys think that github or bitbucket provides a more useful set of features than sourceforge then I'll grumble only a little bit about having to learn something other than Subversion to use a new BZFlag repo. |
| 01:42.14 | BulletCatcher | That leaves only changing the game name and domain as something that I remain unconvinced is worth the effort. |
| 01:44.36 | DTRemenak | BulletCatcher: me either, but it's not our effort that's being spent ;) |
| 01:45.47 | drizzo4shizzo | well, bitbucket allows private repos for free (over github) |
| 01:45.57 | drizzo4shizzo | not that this would be a factor here |
| 01:46.12 | JeffM | that was already disussed |
| 01:46.36 | JeffM | I would prefer a system that makes it harder to have private repos since I don't think they have any place in an open source project |
| 01:47.05 | DTRemenak | if you're using a dvcs, almost all the repos are private ;) |
| 01:47.16 | JeffM | the one on your system is yeah |
| 01:47.21 | JeffM | that should be all you need |
| 01:47.44 | BulletCatcher | That may be the best mindset for me, too, DTRemenak. :-) |
| 01:47.46 | BulletCatcher | Too bad none of the proposed new names are half as good as the current one. |
| 01:48.00 | DTRemenak | "allows private repos" is pretty high up on the "list of features that are completely meaningless" |
| 01:48.11 | drizzo4shizzo | yeah for bzflag |
| 01:48.21 | drizzo4shizzo | private feature branches however is *nice* |
| 01:48.22 | DTRemenak | drizzo4shizzo: no, in general |
| 01:48.35 | JeffM | yeah if you want it to be private, HOST IT! |
| 01:48.36 | DTRemenak | every repo you have is a "private repo" |
| 01:48.37 | drizzo4shizzo | well, I put stuff on bitbucket when its just for me |
| 01:48.43 | JeffM | why? |
| 01:48.58 | drizzo4shizzo | cos I don't want it on my public facing place |
| 01:49.08 | JeffM | why not host your own |
| 01:49.09 | DTRemenak | drizzo4shizzo: I don't think you understand how dvcs' work |
| 01:49.17 | drizzo4shizzo | no; I do |
| 01:49.38 | DTRemenak | your local "working copy" IS a full repository, and it IS private |
| 01:49.40 | drizzo4shizzo | I was just pointing out that bitbucket *allows* a user to not share their repository. NOt that it is relevant |
| 01:49.46 | drizzo4shizzo | yes I know this |
| 01:50.09 | DTRemenak | so why use bitbucket for things you have no intention of sharing? |
| 01:50.11 | drizzo4shizzo | I have the bz source cloned with git svn, so I have all the history in a "private repo" if you like |
| 01:50.20 | drizzo4shizzo | oh its convenient |
| 01:50.28 | drizzo4shizzo | like, a .bash_profile or something |
| 01:50.36 | drizzo4shizzo | something I want to be able to access from wherever |
| 01:50.52 | DTRemenak | ah, like as cloud storage |
| 01:50.55 | drizzo4shizzo | yep |
| 01:51.00 | JeffM | people is lazy |
| 01:51.01 | drizzo4shizzo | with versioning |
| 01:51.20 | drizzo4shizzo | I'm not sure I see what is lazy about it |
| 01:51.41 | JeffM | using a third party service for somethign you could host yourself |
| 01:51.47 | drizzo4shizzo | ah |
| 01:51.52 | DTRemenak | trivially host...like, ssh |
| 01:51.58 | JeffM | yeah |
| 01:52.43 | drizzo4shizzo | I do run ssh but I prefer to use this service for these simple little things for various reasons |
| 01:52.59 | blast007 | I do it so that I have a nice "middle" point to push to and pull from |
| 01:53.03 | drizzo4shizzo | I can for example share it with someone without giving them a login to my personal workstation |
| 01:53.18 | drizzo4shizzo | yeah thats it blast |
| 01:53.23 | DTRemenak | blast007: see, that seems more complicated to me. why not just push or pull directly to/from your end nodes? |
| 01:53.25 | blast007 | do development on my local machine, push changes to the bitbucket repo, and then I can pull those changes to my production site |
| 01:56.17 | BulletCatcher | It seems like a typical cloud vs. self-hosting decision. |
| 01:57.03 | drizzo4shizzo | my home server has a UPS... but... sometimes my IP changes on me, or sometimes my computer locks up, or sometimes the wife turns it off :( |
| 01:57.51 | drizzo4shizzo | there is an open source github clone you can deploy for free, I forgot what its called tho |
| 01:57.59 | DTRemenak | most of those there are good technical solutions to. the wife, not so much ;) |
| 01:58.06 | drizzo4shizzo | heh |
| 01:58.59 | BulletCatcher | Cloud storage *is* the technical solution in that case. |
| 01:59.25 | DTRemenak | blast007: on your 2.6 plans, I don't quite understand what the difference is between 3.1 and what exists now. All the regex motd stuff I did for 3.0 got backported, iirc. |
| 01:59.47 | drizzo4shizzo | oh yeah gitlab |
| 02:00.02 | drizzo4shizzo | and gitorious. have used neither |
| 02:00.14 | DTRemenak | so you should be able to issue motds specifically to win32 machines, for instance |
| 02:00.34 | blast007 | perhaps unneeded then |
| 02:00.54 | blast007 | mainly was so that logic was moved to the server so that we could change it without needing a new client version |
| 02:04.49 | DTRemenak | I do totally dig the "tell the server about the client locale" item. That'd be cool. |
| 02:05.20 | DTRemenak | not sure why we didn't see the need for that in 2.99. |
| 02:09.10 | DTRemenak | and your font system stuff implies "make everything unicode" but doesn't actually mention it. there's a lot of work involved there (mostly but not all borrowable from 2.99) |
| 02:09.30 | JeffM | yeah it's a tedious task |
| 02:09.45 | JeffM | but it's dooable |
| 02:10.33 | DTRemenak | sure. I'd intended to backport all that whenever someone decided to break protocol. |
| 02:11.19 | DTRemenak | most of the patches should apply cleanly, it's just a matter of slogging through the network messages (which are completely different) and anything that got added in 2.4. |
| 02:11.56 | JeffM | part of me wants to redo those messages, do the buffer thing correctly this time, so the strings could be done at the same time |
| 02:12.10 | JeffM | add a net thread on the server too |
| 02:12.19 | JeffM | if we have one for PNG Compression may as well go to town |
| 02:12.34 | BulletCatcher | The next protocol break seems to be a chicken-and-egg problem. |
| 02:12.35 | BulletCatcher | Do we need to just decide to do it? |
| 02:13.04 | DTRemenak | JeffM: does that same part of you want to do all the testing required to make sure it's actually working in every applicable scenario? ;) |
| 02:13.13 | JeffM | I say we let joevano get us a github codebase, we make that the protobreak one and do what we want to do in it |
| 02:13.31 | JeffM | DTRemenak, yeah, I know a lot more about networking and thread now |
| 02:13.42 | JeffM | that part knows that is part of the task |
| 02:14.11 | JeffM | I have some ideas how I'd break it up at first so it'd be done in testable chunks |
| 02:14.25 | JeffM | move the http stuff over to a buffered system, ensure that works, etc.. |
| 02:14.48 | BulletCatcher | Combining a protocol break and a repo break makes sense, JeffM. |
| 02:15.24 | JeffM | that type of split should help some of the mental issues |
| 02:15.54 | JeffM | then if tim does come back and balk at anything and we decide we do have to fork for realsies we just rename the repo |
| 02:17.26 | drizzo4shizzo | I've already git-ified the bzflag codebase |
| 02:17.37 | drizzo4shizzo | would be easy to throw it up on github if you want to check it out |
| 02:17.45 | blast007 | that's the easy part |
| 02:17.51 | JeffM | drizzo4shizzo, we want to make some changes at the time of import, joevano is working on it, but thanks |
| 02:17.53 | blast007 | the hard part is splitting our SVN into multiple repos |
| 02:17.55 | drizzo4shizzo | it was indeed easy :) |
| 02:18.06 | drizzo4shizzo | not hard at all once in git |
| 02:18.16 | blast007 | I'm assuming you have everything from our SVN in a single repo? |
| 02:18.20 | drizzo4shizzo | currently yes |
| 02:18.23 | drizzo4shizzo | well |
| 02:18.26 | drizzo4shizzo | I have only trunk/bzflag |
| 02:18.36 | blast007 | yeah, see, we'd want it all |
| 02:18.45 | JeffM | yeah we'll see what Joe can do |
| 02:18.46 | drizzo4shizzo | not a big problem |
| 02:18.49 | drizzo4shizzo | I just didn't want to wait around. |
| 02:18.55 | drizzo4shizzo | sounds good |
| 02:19.01 | drizzo4shizzo | I can provide tech assistance if that helps |
| 02:19.07 | blast007 | trunk/bzflag misses out on our branches/tags, and misses all the other projects we have in our repo |
| 02:19.16 | JeffM | do you have a git bumper sticker on your car? |
| 02:19.19 | drizzo4shizzo | :-P |
| 02:19.23 | drizzo4shizzo | I'm not even one of those people |
| 02:19.28 | JeffM | we have to be sure |
| 02:19.40 | drizzo4shizzo | it just so happens I just did this for work |
| 02:19.52 | blast007 | "Honk if you cloned a repo today" |
| 02:20.04 | drizzo4shizzo | first you build the entire thing using git-svn |
| 02:20.09 | DTRemenak | just as long as y'all don't go renaming all the files (still a wee bit bitter at that stunt ;) ) |
| 02:20.11 | JeffM | "honk if you don't understand that all problems are not nails!" |
| 02:20.15 | drizzo4shizzo | then you can re-write it and split it up into whatever |
| 02:20.34 | JeffM | renaming I don't think so |
| 02:20.43 | JeffM | removing src/other, probably |
| 02:20.55 | JeffM | getting { on a line by itself, if I can swing it ;) |
| 02:20.59 | DTRemenak | pft |
| 02:21.06 | drizzo4shizzo | its easy to be like, "see this directory? I want to make it it's own repository now. move all traces of it and its history to a new project $here" |
| 02:21.07 | DTRemenak | that I can deal with, even if I don't like it |
| 02:21.08 | blast007 | Well, we were planning to make all the filenames capital letters. Stands out more in the crowd. |
| 02:21.24 | JeffM | and full hungarian notation |
| 02:21.46 | blast007 | drizzo4shizzo: we moved stuff around though ;) |
| 02:21.47 | drizzo4shizzo | converting svn tags to git tags is easy too |
| 02:21.54 | DTRemenak | although actually even moving braces around will make patches a LOT harder to apply |
| 02:21.55 | drizzo4shizzo | I had to do that too |
| 02:22.08 | JeffM | DTRemenak, that's what pull requests are for ;) |
| 02:22.19 | drizzo4shizzo | oh, looks like this SVN repo is all cross polluted.. Lets rebuild it pretending directory A/B was really B/C |
| 02:22.24 | DTRemenak | JeffM: they're not magical |
| 02:22.39 | DTRemenak | if you want a patch from 3.0, SOMEONE has to go apply it BY HAND if it can't be applied automatically |
| 02:22.43 | JeffM | but yes we may want to review the patch list before we do any formating changes |
| 02:22.44 | JeffM | yeah |
| 02:22.52 | drizzo4shizzo | all this history rebuilding stuff is courtesy of git filterbranch |
| 02:22.53 | DTRemenak | and there's a LOT of desirable material in 3.0 |
| 02:22.53 | blast007 | DTRemenak: you'd just have to change 3.0 to have the same brace styles - problem solved! |
| 02:23.05 | blast007 | ducks |
| 02:23.10 | DTRemenak | blast007: naw, doesn't fix the history problem |
| 02:23.23 | JeffM | BulletCatcher, I don't think git has properties, will you be ok with that? |
| 02:23.34 | DTRemenak | unless you want to go reformat all the historical commits...that'd probably work, but I have no idea how to do it |
| 02:23.46 | drizzo4shizzo | that is what I'm saying yes |
| 02:23.50 | drizzo4shizzo | wait what do you mean reformat |
| 02:24.03 | JeffM | move { to a new line isntead of after the if() |
| 02:24.04 | DTRemenak | drizzo4shizzo: retroactively apply style changes |
| 02:24.05 | drizzo4shizzo | change braces? lol no thanks |
| 02:24.18 | DTRemenak | so that the history would believe it had been in the new style all along |
| 02:24.28 | BulletCatcher | I'll be extremely disappointed, but with years of therapy I'm sure I'll be able to come to grips with lack of properties it git. |
| 02:24.29 | drizzo4shizzo | I'm going to say that it might be possible but I wouldn't want to try it |
| 02:24.33 | JeffM | I bet joevano ould do it |
| 02:24.51 | DTRemenak | drizzo4shizzo: yeah, that's basically what I was thinking...possible, but nightmarish in practice |
| 02:25.00 | JeffM | he had a chance to be a cyborg and his doctor told him he was TOO COOL to be one, he can do anything |
| 02:25.12 | blast007 | we could always postpone style changes until we're done pulling parts of BZFlag into the new repo |
| 02:25.19 | drizzo4shizzo | ^this |
| 02:25.19 | JeffM | BulletCatcher, you can console yourself with const |
| 02:25.28 | DTRemenak | heh |
| 02:25.30 | JeffM | yeah there are many options |
| 02:25.36 | JeffM | all of them bikeshed |
| 02:25.37 | drizzo4shizzo | do the style changes all at once sounds... so nice... |
| 02:25.45 | BulletCatcher | Yeah. There are are plenty of places where const can be added. |
| 02:26.08 | JeffM | oh no, we are doing agile development, we have to remove all of them, we move to fast to be const |
| 02:26.24 | blast007 | drizzo4shizzo: well, we'd do it all at once anyway - it's just if we did it right away, then it'd harder to pull changes from the old repo |
| 02:26.55 | blast007 | the 2.99.x codebase we shelved has a lot of features we'd want to pull into future versions of whatever game we decide to release |
| 02:26.55 | drizzo4shizzo | you could do it in both places and then pull the changes over |
| 02:27.09 | JeffM | some of the changes are in HISTORY in svn |
| 02:27.11 | JeffM | so that would be hard |
| 02:27.22 | DTRemenak | unless we changed the history, thus my earlier suggestion ;) |
| 02:27.27 | JeffM | doing all the backports as one group task is the best idea |
| 02:27.40 | JeffM | then we all are aware of what we are backporting, can discuss, etc. |
| 02:27.40 | drizzo4shizzo | appending to history is a little cleaner for something messy like that |
| 02:28.03 | drizzo4shizzo | like pervasive format changes that is |
| 02:28.07 | blast007 | drizzo4shizzo: I don't think you get it though |
| 02:28.18 | drizzo4shizzo | thats entirely likely, I'm new here |
| 02:28.20 | DTRemenak | yeah...ideally, someone would step through every commit to 2.99 and make a pull/don't pull decision on each one...now THAT'S a tedious task |
| 02:28.51 | JeffM | who the hell took the org name "BZflag" in github? |
| 02:28.59 | DTRemenak | hahaha |
| 02:29.17 | blast007 | meh, guess we have to change the name now |
| 02:29.18 | drizzo4shizzo | what do they have in there |
| 02:29.19 | blast007 | :P |
| 02:29.24 | blast007 | nothing it seems |
| 02:29.37 | JeffM | can we see who owns it |
| 02:29.41 | JeffM | it's not me is it? |
| 02:29.47 | drizzo4shizzo | looks empty what a loser |
| 02:29.52 | drizzo4shizzo | :-P |
| 02:29.54 | blast007 | created January 14, 2013 |
| 02:30.03 | blast007 | 0 repos, 0 members |
| 02:30.05 | DTRemenak | ok, this search rate limit on github is crap |
| 02:30.21 | JeffM | it's an actual USER? |
| 02:30.24 | JeffM | crap |
| 02:30.25 | DTRemenak | yeah |
| 02:30.37 | JeffM | oh no it's an org |
| 02:30.59 | JeffM | well time to send them an email |
| 02:31.00 | drizzo4shizzo | possibly someone with good intentions? |
| 02:31.34 | JeffM | no way of knowing |
| 02:32.45 | DTRemenak | no mention of it on irc on the day it was created +/- 2 |
| 02:33.17 | drizzo4shizzo | are people squatting github now? |
| 02:33.36 | JeffM | message sent |
| 02:33.48 | DTRemenak | "I WILL SELL U THAT NAME CHEAP. $10000 US TO NIGERIAN CENTRAL BANK BY WIRE." |
| 02:33.51 | BulletCatcher | registers microsoft on github |
| 02:33.59 | JeffM | BulletCatcher, they are in San Diego, go kick in a door |
| 02:34.17 | BulletCatcher | There are several doors to choose from here! |
| 02:34.22 | DTRemenak | hah |
| 02:34.29 | drizzo4shizzo | I recommend you kick in a door with delicious burritos behind it |
| 02:34.52 | JeffM | we didn't have mexican this week |
| 02:34.58 | JeffM | we should have that next week |
| 02:35.04 | JeffM | and more pizza |
| 02:35.19 | DTRemenak | pizza is good. |
| 02:35.31 | JeffM | 5 meals dude, I don't see how you do it |
| 02:36.03 | blast007 | what do you mean we're out of tacos? |
| 02:37.03 | JeffM | well at least this will be a good test of githubs responce time |
| 02:38.31 | drizzo4shizzo | I havent' tried this either https://github.com/blog/156-subversion-importing |
| 02:39.09 | blast007 | working on getting a new sync of the subversion repository that we could play with, if we desired |
| 02:39.16 | drizzo4shizzo | I did it by hand following an online guide -- it wasn't too bad. Once stuff is in git you can really play around with repository structure and recreate history so it looks like it was always *that way*, etc |
| 02:42.28 | JeffM | you sure you don't have a sticker on your car? |
| 02:42.34 | DTRemenak | heh |
| 02:43.27 | drizzo4shizzo | I remember those annoying git people. So annoying. What have I become |
| 02:43.46 | blast007 | an.. annoying git person? |
| 02:43.48 | blast007 | ;) |
| 02:43.55 | DTRemenak | never quite understood why git attracted the zealots like that. I mean, Hg didn't, and it's just about as good. |
| 02:43.59 | JeffM | the git zealots that use eclipse are the worst |
| 02:44.06 | drizzo4shizzo | vim FTW |
| 02:44.36 | DTRemenak | drizzo4shizzo: heh, I had that pegged the moment you mentioned .bash_rc ;) |
| 02:45.03 | drizzo4shizzo | I'm not entirely sure if git attracts zealots solely or if it also *creates* them |
| 02:45.54 | DTRemenak | lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate? |
| 02:46.09 | JeffM | man it is way too hot to make beer |
| 02:46.26 | blast007 | drizzo4shizzo: maybe it clones them |
| 02:46.28 | drizzo4shizzo | what are you brewing |
| 02:46.41 | JeffM | nothing, it's too hot |
| 02:46.45 | DTRemenak | heh |
| 02:46.49 | drizzo4shizzo | blast: god I hope not |
| 02:46.58 | blast007 | drizzo4shizzo: DVCS joke :P |
| 02:47.04 | JeffM | DTRemenak, you guys don't have a 24qt stock pot do you? |
| 02:47.22 | DTRemenak | uh...32 work? |
| 02:47.26 | JeffM | yeah |
| 02:47.29 | JeffM | more then 20 |
| 02:47.38 | drizzo4shizzo | are you gonna do a full boil? |
| 02:47.39 | JeffM | thats a big ass pot! |
| 02:47.40 | DTRemenak | yeah, I have a giant one |
| 02:47.51 | JeffM | can I boorow it next weekend? |
| 02:47.51 | drizzo4shizzo | partial mash or what man. details |
| 02:47.53 | DTRemenak | I think I've used it twice |
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| 02:48.25 | JeffM | drizzo4shizzo, it's an american wheat from malt extract |
| 02:48.46 | drizzo4shizzo | I'm mostly an extracts guy too. Its so much easier and the beer is consistently good. |
| 02:48.57 | JeffM | DTRemenak, it's not cast iron is it? |
| 02:48.59 | drizzo4shizzo | on guy made his own brew kettle out of half a keg |
| 02:49.24 | JeffM | I have a 3.5gallon stock pot but I'd prefer to boil all 5 gallons |
| 02:49.35 | drizzo4shizzo | I've only ever boiled 2 myself |
| 02:49.54 | JeffM | a partial boil makes the beer much darker |
| 02:50.03 | drizzo4shizzo | I didn't know that |
| 02:50.16 | drizzo4shizzo | it cools down faster anyway |
| 02:50.21 | JeffM | more of the grains come in contact with the edges and brown |
| 02:50.26 | JeffM | yeah it's a trade off |
| 02:50.35 | JeffM | 3.5 isn't horrible but I wanted to try a full |
| 02:50.46 | drizzo4shizzo | I am told full is ideal |
| 02:51.13 | DTRemenak | hm, 28 qt actually |
| 02:51.17 | DTRemenak | and stainless steel |
| 02:51.23 | JeffM | sweet |
| 02:51.25 | JeffM | that'll be fine |
| 02:51.29 | JeffM | if you don't mind |
| 02:51.39 | DTRemenak | sure |
| 02:51.45 | JeffM | thanks |
| 02:51.48 | drizzo4shizzo | are you going to do the boil outside? |
| 02:51.49 | DTRemenak | like I said, I don't use it often :) |
| 02:52.10 | JeffM | drizzo4shizzo, no I'll do it on my stove, it'll take foever and I'll have to turn on a big fan |
| 02:52.10 | DTRemenak | it's good for huge quantities of soup, and not much else :) |
| 02:52.18 | JeffM | but my house will smell awesome |
| 02:52.26 | drizzo4shizzo | yes. yes it will. |
| 02:53.23 | JeffM | I can cool it in a rubermaid tub full of icewater |
| 02:53.35 | JeffM | or maybe I'll finaly go make a wort chiller |
| 02:53.41 | drizzo4shizzo | heh I bought one of those |
| 02:53.49 | JeffM | wonders if he has any copper left |
| 02:53.50 | drizzo4shizzo | copper tubing thingies |
| 02:55.03 | drizzo4shizzo | have been known to fill a bathtub with ice water as well |
| 02:55.16 | drizzo4shizzo | the tub sounds easier :( |
| 02:55.19 | DTRemenak | when I bought that pot my goal was to get a pot big enough that I'd never need to say "I need a bigger pot", because I've said that too often. |
| 02:55.25 | DTRemenak | thus far, it has worked. |
| 02:55.29 | JeffM | I may have made some coper condencers for REASONS! |
| 02:55.36 | JeffM | heh |
| 02:55.42 | drizzo4shizzo | sounds like you could curl up and go to sleep in that thing |
| 02:55.58 | JeffM | DTRemenak wants to cook all the pastas |
| 02:58.08 | drizzo4shizzo | one thing that might be useful to have for any upcoming git->svn conversion btw is a map of user name to fullname and email address |
| 02:58.38 | JeffM | yes joevano mentioned that and seemed to indicate that we had most of that |
| 02:58.47 | drizzo4shizzo | sounds like you're all set |
| 02:58.57 | JeffM | I belive this this what he does at his work |
| 02:59.16 | drizzo4shizzo | ha well it's what I just did at my work too |
| 03:01.48 | drizzo4shizzo | btw this was awesome https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sv3xVOs7_No |
| 03:02.47 | blast007 | we were doing the username > realname/email mapping when we had tried the mercurial migration a year or two ago |
| 03:14.44 | BulletCatcher | Would we go to *real* names or allow aliases? |
| 03:14.45 | BulletCatcher | I am concerned more for trepan than for myself. |
| 03:15.12 | JeffM | personaly I prefer real names, they are the best for legal defense |
| 03:18.47 | drizzo4shizzo | is there going to be a policy moving forward that people use "real names"? |
| 03:19.05 | BulletCatcher | For legal purposes it ought to be enough that we document somewhere (not necessarily in public) the mapping between real names and any aliases used in commit messages. |
| 03:19.42 | JeffM | sure I just feel more comforatble with a realname SOMEWHERE, just in case |
| 03:21.01 | BulletCatcher | That would work for me. |
| 03:21.30 | JeffM | because there could be copyright issues, having ONLY an alias could get tricky if someone wanted to be mean or stupid |
| 03:22.17 | BulletCatcher | I am Sparticus! No, *I* am! |
| 03:22.29 | JeffM | excatly |
| 03:22.48 | drizzo4shizzo | that reminds me - in the help page for git filter-branch the example is: remove all commits by "Darl McBribe" |
| 03:23.02 | drizzo4shizzo | the SCO troll |
| 03:23.10 | drizzo4shizzo | was Darl McBride |
| 03:23.50 | JeffM | it can be a legitimate thing to have to do, specialy for projcets that change licenses and didn't get permision |
| 03:23.54 | BulletCatcher | There are no git fanatics. No sireee! |
| 03:24.22 | drizzo4shizzo | heh I'm going to shut up now |
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| 04:18.09 | apeman_ | is it just me or sometimes publickeys expire or something |
| 04:19.03 | BulletCatcher | I don't think they expire. |
| 04:20.01 | BulletCatcher | If your key is issued for an old IP address then it won't work with a new one. |
| 04:20.26 | BulletCatcher | A fixed domain name is the cure for that problem. |
| 04:22.03 | apeman_ | several times it seems the publickey doesnt work until i issue a new one with the exact same domain name (but new key) |
| 04:23.31 | BulletCatcher | We'd have to dig into the database to diagnose that. |
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| 05:42.40 | blast007 | apeman_: if your IP is dynamic, there's a chance that the list server still has the old IP cached (either on the server itself, or at the DNS servers I use) |
| 05:43.49 | blast007 | hmm, though I dunno why it'd work with a new key on the same domain then... |
| 05:44.37 | blast007 | But you're the first one to report such things. I've used the same keys for a LONG time. |
| 05:50.21 | jeffmOSX | BulletCatcher, are you bulletcatcher5 on github? |
| 05:59.19 | alpha1-2_away | jeffmOSX: how many names do you have? :P |
| 05:59.26 | jeffmOSX | 37 |
| 05:59.30 | alpha1-2_away | he he he |
| 05:59.54 | alpha1-2_away | I try to follow you but you do it hard to do ;) |
| 06:00.08 | jeffmOSX | depends on what machine I am at |
| 06:00.25 | jeffmOSX | must have left the desktop on when I went to watch Supernatural |
| 06:00.42 | alpha1-2_away | you are a multimachine guy (like multiuser) :) |
| 06:00.57 | jeffmOSX | I have a laptop and a desktop, and a machine at work |
| 06:00.59 | jeffmOSX | so sure |
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| 06:01.42 | alpha1-2_away | and why don't you use the same name? |
| 06:01.58 | jeffmOSX | because I didn't ghost the other account |
| 06:02.05 | jeffmOSX | only one machine can use a name at a time |
| 06:02.18 | alpha1-2_away | ahhh at the same time right? |
| 06:02.25 | apeman_ | blast007: its not dynamic ip |
| 06:02.50 | alpha1-2_away | oh ok I see you JeffM too :P |
| 06:03.55 | alpha1-2_away | just take care of multiple personalities ;) |
| 06:05.13 | jeffmOSX | blast007, you are now an owner of BZFlag-dev on github |
| 06:05.36 | jeffmOSX | if the owner of the BZFlag org deletes the one they made we can rename this one |
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| 15:54.04 | GitHub167 | 01[13bzflag-art01] 15none pushed 0 new commits to 06master: 02https://github.com/BZFlag-Dev/bzflag-art/compare/b497973bf7c4...b497973bf7c4 |
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| 15:54.48 | GitHub9 | 01[13bzflag-art01] 15none pushed 0 new commits to 06master: 02https://github.com/BZFlag-Dev/bzflag-art/compare/b497973bf7c4...b497973bf7c4 |
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| 15:54.51 | blast | meh, we should get a proper bot in here to do that.. the rejoin is annoying :) |
| 15:55.04 | JeffM | I'm just testing it |
| 15:55.41 | JeffM | you should have access to an org now |
| 15:55.45 | blast | yup |
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| 15:56.56 | blast | (turned off the long URL option) |
| 15:57.10 | blast | well, and made it use notices instead |
| 15:57.24 | JeffM | how about message with out join? |
| 15:57.44 | blast | that'd require turning off +n, so people not joined to the channel could send messages here |
| 15:58.05 | JeffM | k |
| 15:58.18 | JeffM | I wonder if we give it a custom name will it stay logged in? |
| 15:58.26 | blast | dunno |
| 15:58.26 | mrapple | nope |
| 15:58.29 | blast | heh |
| 15:58.42 | mrapple | we disabled +n on our channel |
| 15:58.45 | mrapple | hasn't been an issue |
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| 16:00.06 | JeffM | what's the email used by notify, I can try using the email setting they have |
| 16:01.00 | BulletCatcher | I currently have no github account at all, so any bullet catchers there are imposters. |
| 16:01.21 | JeffM | ok |
| 16:01.27 | JeffM | oddly there is a 5 |
| 16:01.38 | JeffM | but not one with no number, so it may be available for you |
| 16:01.59 | BulletCatcher | I have to decide whether to go by real name or alias. |
| 16:02.04 | JeffM | k |
| 16:03.06 | blast | BulletCatcher: my account name at github/bitbucket is an alias, but I make commits in the 'Real Name <email@address.org>' format |
| 16:03.21 | JeffM | github is the same way |
| 16:04.48 | BulletCatcher | Are we going to rewrite names in historical commits? |
| 16:04.59 | JeffM | joevano was going to look into doing that |
| 16:05.31 | BulletCatcher | Our decision on that will influence my choice of identifier. |
| 16:05.36 | JeffM | k |
| 16:06.30 | blast | joevano: if you want, I have a local sync of the BZFlag SVN repository that I could tar.gz up for you. |
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| 17:57.07 | joevano | blast: that would be awesome because the import keeps blowing up on my new mac... some issue with pyton |
| 17:57.24 | blast007 | okay, let me toss that up somewhere |
| 18:03.25 | JeffM | joevano, I made a github org for us, you should have full admin on it's repositories |
| 18:04.31 | joevano | just for accuracy not python... perl |
| 18:04.32 | JeffM | setting up the gravitar icon was super lame and dificult :( |
| 18:04.57 | blast | heh |
| 18:05.29 | blast | I've never had much issue with gravatar |
| 18:05.45 | JeffM | I had to get it to use something that wasn't my personal email |
| 18:05.46 | joevano | JeffM: yes, I see that now... last thing I saw in here was around (PM EST when blast smiled... that must have killed my connection to my server ;-) |
| 18:06.09 | JeffM | and then I had to sign up for a wordpress account |
| 18:06.15 | JeffM | then it wanted me to make a blog |
| 18:06.19 | blast | eh? |
| 18:06.25 | JeffM | so I made a blog with a very NSFW name |
| 18:06.39 | blast | oh, I see |
| 18:06.42 | JeffM | on a side note I now own bzflag.me just so I can have bzflag@bzflag.me :) |
| 18:07.02 | JeffM | and you and BulletCatcher have access to the domain on namecheap |
| 18:07.10 | JeffM | it was 0.98$ |
| 18:07.12 | blast | haven't been to the gravatar site in a while, so now I see that apparently wordpress bought 'em |
| 18:07.40 | blast | well, automattic did, technically |
| 18:07.54 | JeffM | yeah, that made it MUCH worse |
| 18:09.24 | JeffM | I like the fact that I can make teams in the org interface, so I could make a plugins team and only grant plugin repos to those users |
| 18:10.43 | joevano | there are 77 contributors to the codebase currently that we would need to convert to "name (email)" format |
| 18:11.08 | joevano | hardest part will be converting them if we don't have that info somewhere |
| 18:11.27 | JeffM | we should have all the names in the authors file |
| 18:11.40 | JeffM | and for the emails we don't have we can use NAME@users.sourceforge.net |
| 18:11.44 | joevano | ah right |
| 18:11.52 | joevano | kk... |
| 18:11.56 | blast | I'd prefer that be used for mine regardless |
| 18:12.04 | JeffM | k |
| 18:12.35 | JeffM | acutaly doing them all that way would make it clear what commits were from SF |
| 18:12.53 | blast | yeah, was just gonna say, might as well do them all that way. |
| 18:13.04 | joevano | true... and way easier |
| 18:14.24 | joevano | i'll mess with testing the code base up with the repo blast sent me and get the names ready for when I do it for real |
| 18:14.53 | joevano | the name conversion is easiest during the import |
| 18:14.56 | blast | that sync can be updated as well with the svnsync command |
| 18:15.17 | blast | ex: svnsync sync file://`pwd`/bzflag-svn-sync |
| 18:16.16 | JeffM | will there be any disconnect between new and old commits that will cause a problem if the emails don't match? |
| 18:16.22 | JeffM | or is it just for lame stats? |
| 18:21.21 | blast | https://help.github.com/articles/why-are-my-contributions-not-showing-up-on-my-profile |
| 18:22.01 | blast | I had initially signed up with my personal gmail account, but I added my sourceforge email to my account as well |
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| 18:25.02 | JeffM | ahh then all will be well |
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| 19:04.10 | joevano | anyone know if bzspldart == spldart? he's not around at the moment |
| 19:07.43 | mebigfatguy | i'd say thats a safe guess :) |
| 19:08.59 | blast | if ('bzspldart' == 'spldart') { echo 'Definitely' } else { 'Probably' } |
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| 19:37.57 | joevano | user translation file completed... I was surprised at how many usernames were not referenced in the Authors file |
| 19:50.13 | Constitution | there's our real problem? nobody was getting credit for their work, so they all quit ;) |
| 19:50.39 | blast | heh |
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| 20:45.27 | JeffM | hmm, the bzflag org on github is active with private repos |
| 20:48.26 | blast | so someone paid monies |
| 20:48.36 | JeffM | yup |
| 20:48.42 | blast | well crud |
| 20:48.52 | JeffM | the gitub staff is willing to forward a message to them from me |
| 20:48.56 | JeffM | I am writing it up now |
| 20:49.00 | blast | okay |
| 20:52.16 | JeffM | I asked them to send me an email or come into IRC |
| 20:52.33 | JeffM | watch it's totay Tim's private fork |
| 20:52.40 | blast | ;D |
| 20:52.56 | blast | maybe he stores his DNS zones in there |
| 20:53.42 | JeffM | if it's someone doing private dev we can throw them into a team and they can still use there private repos |
| 20:58.21 | blast | I'm writing up a design proposal for the new web services. In the past, we just had organizations as a container for groups. |
| 20:58.29 | blast | However, should they also contain the server keys? |
| 20:58.42 | JeffM | possibly |
| 20:59.06 | blast | would let you transfer an organization and the keys would then transfer as well. |
| 20:59.15 | JeffM | it may be nice for an org to have a list of servers with keys, then if you have a single server that goes rogue the org admin can pull the key |
| 20:59.18 | JeffM | yeah |
| 20:59.24 | JeffM | I see no downside to it |
| 21:00.09 | blast | then we'd possible have a list of people we could contact instead of just one (organization founder and co-founders) |
| 21:00.22 | JeffM | yeah |
| 21:00.32 | JeffM | for the single owner case it works fine |
| 21:00.41 | JeffM | and has advantage for the mulit server case |
| 21:00.44 | JeffM | or multi owner |
| 21:01.32 | allejo | with this impending fork, you still going to use phpbb as the registration system except allow for in-game registration? |
| 21:01.37 | blast | no |
| 21:01.44 | JeffM | phpbb is lamezors |
| 21:01.51 | allejo | woah blast lost his james bond status |
| 21:01.52 | blast | it would be a new registration system coded just for our environment |
| 21:02.07 | blast | points at blast007 |
| 21:02.18 | allejo | oh never mind |
| 21:02.21 | JeffM | all registrants would provide a credit card or paypal account for identification |
| 21:02.26 | allejo | lol |
| 21:02.39 | blast | allejo: easier to focus when I only have one channel accessible to me ;) |
| 21:02.44 | blast | JeffM: heh |
| 21:02.51 | allejo | makes sense |
| 21:03.21 | blast | credit card is one valid method of COPPA verifiable proof ;) |
| 21:03.21 | allejo | so with this new registration system, any way to port existing accounts or will everyone have to reregister? |
| 21:03.35 | blast | allejo: that is something I need to make possible |
| 21:03.40 | JeffM | that is something we will discuss when the time comes |
| 21:03.50 | joevano | user conversion file needed a (no author) entry... must be a commit or two with no attribution |
| 21:03.53 | blast | partially planned out how I'd want it to work already |
| 21:04.25 | allejo | ah so that means there'd be a better way to handle global groups? |
| 21:04.30 | blast | allejo: yes |
| 21:04.55 | joevano | almost anything would be better than our current system ;-) |
| 21:04.55 | allejo | and what about the forums? players will have to register a new account solely for the forums or would the same account work? |
| 21:05.04 | allejo | hehe |
| 21:05.24 | joevano | but it does work, so there is that |
| 21:05.45 | blast | allejo: that's the complicated part ;) |
| 21:06.33 | allejo | phpbb mod that allows user accounts from another system similar to login with facebook, google, whatever? |
| 21:07.15 | joevano | allejo: you writing it? ;-) |
| 21:07.22 | blast | what I have so far for the proposal: https://docs.google.com/document/d/17U4aCSxth8g76qdLZILD6qiUK7QloSnGa2vHdju3oQM/edit?usp=sharing |
| 21:07.26 | blast | and no, no phpbb mods |
| 21:07.41 | allejo | aww i would have been willing to learn |
| 21:07.55 | blast | well, maybe.. meh.. needs a lot of testing and research |
| 21:08.06 | joevano | oh... i won't make you learn the hell of php ;-) |
| 21:08.06 | blast | would be easier to just mark the old forums read-only |
| 21:08.38 | allejo | joevano, I'm familiar with PHP :P i'd just have to learn phpbb's api |
| 21:09.48 | blast | allejo: http://static.bzexcess.com/phpbb_api.jpg |
| 21:11.08 | allejo | lol |
| 21:11.13 | allejo | seems accurate |
| 21:11.47 | blast | no idea actually, never looked at it |
| 21:13.18 | allejo | i don't think there is an actual api for phpbb, i think they're called mods for a reason |
| 21:13.21 | blast | yeah |
| 21:13.32 | blast | but there is a special mod format |
| 21:13.38 | allejo | yea |
| 21:14.07 | blast | I think that authentication might be easier to implement than some other mods |
| 21:14.55 | blast | additionally, if we set up the main login area as an OpenID provider, that could make things easier |
| 21:15.13 | blast | or harder.. ;) depends |
| 21:15.35 | blast | I'd want the forum account to be an option you enable from the player portal |
| 21:15.44 | blast | (same for the wiki) |
| 21:16.55 | allejo | enable meaning you can login with your account? |
| 21:16.57 | blast | still not sure if I'd want to let every "callsign" create a forum/wiki account, or just the main account |
| 21:17.31 | blast | my idea is that the user account would be one-per-person, and then they can create up to 8 callsigns in their account |
| 21:17.41 | blast | one would be the primary callsign and be used as the name of the forum/wiki |
| 21:17.46 | blast | name on the* |
| 21:18.11 | blast | if they change the primary, it updates the account(s) on the forum/wiki |
| 21:18.40 | allejo | that seems logical. i don't see a purpose for creating an account for each extra callsign |
| 21:18.48 | allejo | unless you're snake and want to reply to your own posts |
| 21:18.53 | blast | :P |
| 21:19.12 | blast | the only instance I see the above being a problem is where a parent wants to create accounts for their children |
| 21:19.22 | blast | (or just create callsigns) |
| 21:19.46 | blast | the kids might not have an email address |
| 21:19.55 | allejo | ah |
| 21:20.08 | blast | but on the other hand, I think they'd have to make their own account anyway, because COPPA :/ |
| 21:20.19 | allejo | ~coppa |
| 21:20.20 | infobot | coppa is, like, the Children's Online Privacy Protection Act, see http://www.coppa.org/ |
| 21:20.36 | blast | and I think coppa.org isn't a good resource anymore |
| 21:20.42 | blast | should go to the FTC site directly |
| 21:20.57 | allejo | change the factoid? |
| 21:22.17 | blast | infobot: no, coppa is Children's Online Privacy Protection Act, see http://business.ftc.gov/privacy-and-security/childrens-privacy |
| 21:22.17 | infobot | okay, blast |
| 21:23.34 | allejo | wonders how snake would react to being able to have multiple callsigns |
| 21:26.42 | blast | Snake12534, Snake12535, Snake12536... |
| 21:27.47 | blast | cool thing is that you could ban an entire account at once, which would cover all their callsigns |
| 21:29.10 | allejo | hehe |
| 21:37.23 | blast | haven't even started writing the code for the new system though, so we're a long way off from having to worry about migrating |
| 21:37.52 | blast | and I'd rather focus more on making it work the best it can first, ignoring the other data as much as possible. |
| 21:50.32 | blast | hmm, video conferencing is a valid verifiable method of parental consent. |
| 21:51.09 | blast | and electronic scans |
| 21:54.29 | allejo | google hangouts? |
| 21:54.38 | allejo | you just record the session? |
| 21:54.38 | blast | bleh |
| 21:54.54 | blast | I don't think you'd have to record it |
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