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| 00:03.20 | spldart | Fine by me. I no longer like apple as of years ago. |
| 00:04.59 | mrapple | i still like you spldart ;( :P |
| 00:05.13 | spldart | *hugs* |
| 00:05.21 | spldart | ... In a manly sort of way |
| 00:05.28 | mrapple | of course |
| 00:05.32 | spldart | ;) |
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| 16:22.17 | JBdiGriz | jeffm: Why do you believe that apple doesn't allow development with open source tools? |
| 16:22.39 | jeffm | JBdiGriz, because I can't sign an app with an open source tool |
| 16:22.51 | jeffm | or with out a subscription |
| 16:23.17 | jeffm | I guess I should have said deployment, not development |
| 16:23.26 | JBdiGriz | You definitely need a subscription, but that's their version of verification. |
| 16:23.36 | jeffm | I understand why they are doing it |
| 16:23.58 | jeffm | I heard rumor that there is a tool that can sign existing .app files, do you know if this is true? |
| 16:24.20 | JBdiGriz | You can also deploy without verification, it just makes it more difficult for the users to run it |
| 16:24.36 | jeffm | yes we know, that's what we were talking about |
| 16:24.54 | jeffm | and what if anything we want to do to be verified |
| 16:25.19 | jeffm | if we have to build with xcode4+ to be signed we have a lot of work to do |
| 16:25.58 | jeffm | if we can get signed with our existing .app it's a lot easier, and just involves money |
| 16:26.14 | JBdiGriz | Right now you sign the entire project. That means using xcode 4+ |
| 16:26.23 | jeffm | I wonder if there are going to be any open source groups that band together and have a dev account just for signing |
| 16:26.33 | jeffm | then we won't be signed for a while |
| 16:26.58 | JBdiGriz | I'll look into including binary blobs in your app. |
| 16:26.59 | jeffm | our build script does not seem to work in Xcode 4 due to the backend changes to the compiler and command line tools |
| 16:28.22 | JBdiGriz | The only problem with the open source groups banding together would be one bad actor would get the entire group punished. |
| 16:28.26 | jeffm | it's probably due to the way our xcode project just calls the linux style command line tools, and the new Xcode is not based on gcc anymore |
| 16:28.36 | jeffm | yeah that's the main problem |
| 16:28.54 | jeffm | any group would have to have some kind of verification process |
| 16:28.56 | JBdiGriz | Apple has been moving away from Linux and the GPL for a while. They have finally cut the ties. |
| 16:29.00 | jeffm | yeah |
| 16:29.07 | JBdiGriz | Everything is llvm now. |
| 16:29.22 | jeffm | we have no real full time mac developers so our stuff is old |
| 16:30.22 | jeffm | if the only hurdle was the subscription we could solve that, I could ask learner to buy us a bzflag apple dev account and we use that |
| 16:30.32 | jeffm | we still have money that could be used |
| 16:31.23 | jeffm | we also talked about changing the build system to help out, go with cake or something that can generate native builds on all the OSs |
| 16:31.24 | JBdiGriz | We never had full time mac developers. Most of us threw a couple of hours at it when we could. |
| 16:31.35 | jeffm | well learner was more full-time then most ;) |
| 16:31.38 | jeffm | when he was |
| 16:31.47 | JBdiGriz | Learner didn't sleep. |
| 16:31.51 | jeffm | indeed |
| 16:31.56 | jeffm | and now he does |
| 16:32.36 | jeffm | we could also change our distribution model, and use something like steam |
| 16:32.38 | JBdiGriz | I haven't been in touch with him recently. |
| 16:33.25 | JBdiGriz | How much work would it be to use steam? It's probably easier to switch from gcc to llvm. |
| 16:33.35 | jeffm | I don't know |
| 16:33.44 | jeffm | we'd get a lot of cool features, but loose some others |
| 16:33.50 | jeffm | it'd be a big change |
| 16:34.02 | jeffm | but then we'd not have to do our own authentication :) |
| 16:34.09 | JBdiGriz | Loose features can cause problems if not tied down. |
| 16:34.35 | jeffm | you'd get friends lists and all that |
| 16:34.46 | jeffm | but that would be a ways off, they have not released a linux steam client yet |
| 16:35.06 | jeffm | but they are building one |
| 16:35.29 | JBdiGriz | Will steam interact with Apple's game central? |
| 16:35.38 | jeffm | dunno |
| 16:35.51 | jeffm | probably not since they use different account systems |
| 16:36.19 | JBdiGriz | It's more a matter if one will check with the other before failures. |
| 16:36.22 | jeffm | the nice thing is that those kinds of features would not be our problem |
| 16:37.04 | jeffm | valve's authentication network is rather stable |
| 16:37.05 | JBdiGriz | Nice dream, but those kinds of features will always be our problems, especially when they start changing and we have to understand how to change with them. |
| 16:37.37 | jeffm | no, you get a lib that you have to use that pushes all that to the steam side |
| 16:37.37 | jeffm | it updates separate of your app |
| 16:37.51 | jeffm | they also test your app with changes they make to the steam side |
| 16:38.04 | jeffm | it's more then an app store, it's a social platform |
| 16:38.15 | jeffm | it would be a very big change for us |
| 16:38.22 | JBdiGriz | Until there is a lib for all of the platforms, I'm not sure I would rely on it. |
| 16:38.28 | jeffm | and a change where we go whole hog or not at all |
| 16:38.47 | jeffm | yes linux is in development, so it would be a thing for later |
| 16:39.14 | jeffm | the benefit is that we'd get exposure to a massive playerbase |
| 16:39.26 | jeffm | steam is constantly hosting 2-4 million players |
| 16:40.03 | jeffm | I will be watching what they do with the linux steam client and how it works with open source games |
| 16:40.06 | jeffm | it'll be interesting |
| 16:40.27 | jeffm | but I'd redo parts of bzflag first before we moved to steam |
| 16:41.03 | jeffm | for now we'll just have to tell people to ctl-click the .app and pick open |
| 16:41.08 | jeffm | they only have to do that once |
| 16:41.49 | JBdiGriz | That's the easiest path for now. It will probably be the easiest path once moved to the newer development system as well. |
| 16:42.08 | JBdiGriz | Apple will probably change things around again in the next year. |
| 16:42.11 | jeffm | I talked to some other game projects, they are going to do the same |
| 16:42.18 | jeffm | yeah we'll see how many people complain :) |
| 16:42.48 | JBdiGriz | How many are moving to xcode 4.[34]? I see a lot of resistance there as well. |
| 16:43.01 | jeffm | I did not ask that |
| 16:43.26 | jeffm | wesnoth seemed to indicate they had similar problems to us, and the mac packager said if they wanted to sign they'd have to find a different person to do it |
| 16:43.46 | jeffm | I wonder if mono is going to be signed or not |
| 16:44.09 | jeffm | if mono gets signed that means automatic signing for any CLI app :) |
| 16:44.19 | JBdiGriz | I might have an idea for a business. :) |
| 16:44.37 | jeffm | 15$ signings :) |
| 16:45.06 | JBdiGriz | Only for paid apps, a lot less for open source apps. |
| 16:45.16 | jeffm | if people want to sign a lot of open source projects, it would make sense for them to group by type |
| 16:45.37 | jeffm | like an open source game group that only signs well known game projects that have been reviewed |
| 16:45.51 | jeffm | bzflag, wesnoth, armegetron, etc.. |
| 16:45.54 | jeffm | tux racer |
| 16:46.03 | JBdiGriz | Yep, and it would make sense that Apple has an evangelist that works on it. |
| 16:46.19 | jeffm | when they are not rolling in the pit of money |
| 16:46.43 | JBdiGriz | They are rolling in the pit of money because of their evangelism. |
| 16:47.04 | jeffm | wellÂ… no. it's because of iPods and iPhones |
| 16:47.39 | jeffm | and taking a 30% cut |
| 16:48.03 | jeffm | it's all about the marketing :) |
| 16:48.34 | jeffm | but still it'll be interesting to see if they come up with anything to help out the little guys |
| 16:48.42 | JBdiGriz | Make up your mind. First you list a couple of effects, and then you agree with me about the cause. :) |
| 16:48.55 | jeffm | or if they just push appstore |
| 16:49.24 | jeffm | well there is app evangelism and OSX evangelism. I don't think OSX is as big of a part of the profits as iOS devices are |
| 16:49.38 | JBdiGriz | They just changed the app store's policies last week to help the little guys. |
| 16:49.49 | JBdiGriz | You don't need an account to purchase free apps. |
| 16:50.09 | jeffm | so I can not agree that the classic "apple evangelist" that we know and tolerated from system 7 days is responsible for moneys |
| 16:50.21 | JBdiGriz | OSX and iOS aren't that different. |
| 16:50.32 | jeffm | from a marketing standpoint they are |
| 16:50.37 | jeffm | but yes internal they are not |
| 16:51.07 | jeffm | yeah that change they made really makes it seem like they just want everything to go in App Store and be sandboxed |
| 16:51.18 | jeffm | a good goal for total security |
| 16:51.51 | jeffm | a pain for everyone who wants to write for the platform who isn't starting from scratch or using legacy code |
| 16:51.52 | JBdiGriz | People aren't very good about security. |
| 16:52.02 | jeffm | sadly no |
| 16:52.27 | JBdiGriz | It's not that difficult to update your code to write for the platform for yourself. |
| 16:52.31 | jeffm | MS did some experiments with a similar security method in singularity but took it down a much harsher path. |
| 16:52.44 | jeffm | JBdiGriz, once you buy a mac :) |
| 16:52.55 | JBdiGriz | It's a pain to distribute your code to the masses who aren't very good about security. |
| 16:53.41 | JBdiGriz | One of my chief gripes about Apple is that you need a Mac to write software for iOS. |
| 16:53.53 | jeffm | well we'll see how many people complain, so far I have only seen one person other then me say anything about the signing message for bzflag |
| 16:54.50 | JBdiGriz | Since gatekeeper came out yesterday, that's probably a good sign that bzflag isn't dead yet. |
| 16:55.22 | JBdiGriz | Most people who update in the next week will figure out how to deal with gatekeeper before they install bzflag. |
| 16:55.32 | jeffm | I notice a lot of our mac users aren't even on 10.7 so it may not be a big issue |
| 16:55.43 | jeffm | possibly |
| 16:55.56 | jeffm | we tend to have cheap users :) |
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| 16:56.17 | JBdiGriz | School is starting in a couple of months. I would anticipate the September inflow. |
| 16:56.37 | jeffm | the change for sumer was minor |
| 16:56.55 | JBdiGriz | Beware of the Sumerians. |
| 16:58.09 | jeffm | hmm looks like we got down to a legitimate 2 players this week |
| 16:58.28 | JBdiGriz | By definition, bzflag will have cheap users. If they were willing to spend money, they would purchase a real game. |
| 16:59.07 | jeffm | BulletCatcher, I can verify that make dist-check works now where it did not work before :) |
| 16:59.31 | jeffm | yet they spend money on apple computers, it's odd |
| 17:00.36 | JBdiGriz | Perceived value |
| 17:00.46 | jeffm | or parrents |
| 17:01.24 | JBdiGriz | I definitely bought Macs for my kids. I didn't want to spend any time fixing their machines for them. |
| 17:01.49 | jeffm | hmm that's an odd error, OpenGL Warning: No pincher, please call crStateSetCurrentPointers() in your SPU |
| 17:02.00 | JBdiGriz | The value of my time was more than the difference in cost. |
| 17:02.09 | jeffm | teach them to fix it ;) |
| 17:02.22 | JBdiGriz | They can fix their Macs. :) |
| 17:02.43 | jeffm | well, yes everyone knows how to buy things from a website |
| 17:02.54 | JBdiGriz | I'm trying to convince one that she can work at the Apple store next summer. |
| 17:03.08 | jeffm | heh, does that get you a discount? |
| 17:03.42 | JBdiGriz | Not everyone knows how to buy things from a website. My wife still asks me to add things to the cart. |
| 17:03.59 | jeffm | then you sir are a lucky lucky man |
| 17:04.22 | JBdiGriz | Probably, but I'm more interested in getting my daughter to get a summer job. |
| 17:04.59 | JBdiGriz | I'm not sure why I'm lucky when the alternative would be that my wife purchases it somewhere else. |
| 17:05.33 | jeffm | by asking you at least get notified of purchases intend of boxes just showing up |
| 17:12.00 | JBdiGriz | Maybe Zynga is looking for a new game. They certainly need something new for their business. |
| 17:15.12 | jeffm | no, they'd just steal it |
| 17:17.39 | JBdiGriz | And that would be bad? |
| 17:29.12 | jeffm | reports say it's so bad there that even EA didn't want to buy them |
| 18:03.48 | blast007 | jeffm: and the one person that said something about the signing message (if you're referring to mrapple) only did so because I asked him to check it ;) |
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| 18:05.06 | blast007 | jeffm: where did you see that OpenGL warning? inside a VirtualBox VM? |
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| 18:18.18 | jeffm | blast007, ahh, and yes |
| 18:19.53 | blast007 | I've seen that in VirtualBox for quite some time. Probably just a feature that their driver doesn't support? |
| 18:26.39 | blast007 | Seems it's not necessarily related to anything that BZFlag does specifically. https://www.virtualbox.org/search?q=crStateSetCurrentPointers&noquickjump=1&ticket=on |
| 18:30.06 | jeffm | ahh |
| 18:30.22 | jeffm | everything else worked on it fine |
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