| 00:01.33 | *** join/#bzflag Flash (~jwmelto@c-75-70-62-116.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 00:01.34 | *** join/#bzflag Flash (~jwmelto@bzflag/developer/Flash) |
| 00:01.59 | Flash | Just had my first crash in I don't know how long... |
| 00:02.01 | Flash | http://flash.pastebin.ca/2123906 |
| 00:02.23 | Flash | why would you get an init world message in the middle of a game? |
| 00:02.44 | Flash | oh, sorry ... that's init flag. guess that makes sense |
| 00:03.12 | blast007 | was it a certain server? |
| 00:03.18 | Flash | mofo |
| 00:03.27 | Flash | could be one of their custom flags |
| 00:03.36 | blast007 | yeah, that was my thought as well |
| 00:03.49 | Flash | I think it was right after a flag cap, but I'm not sure |
| 00:04.37 | Flash | the server itself has had some problems... maybe all their plugins aren't playing nicely |
| 00:05.05 | Flash | ah well.... back to the carnage |
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| 00:42.16 | BulletCatcher | ~Constitution++ |
| 00:42.24 | BulletCatcher | Nice forum article. |
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| 00:47.47 | Constitution | ~BulletCatcher++ |
| 00:48.01 | JeffM | Constitution is so mean, he dosn't let people drop fbombs |
| 00:48.03 | Constitution | nice article as well... too bad most users can't see it :) |
| 00:49.11 | Constitution | crazy right? |
| 00:49.27 | JeffM | narc :) |
| 00:51.41 | CIA-104 | BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 * r22387 10/trunk/bzflag/src/bzflag/World.cxx: |
| 00:51.42 | CIA-104 | BZFlag: protect against corrupted flag ids so they don't crash the client. |
| 00:51.42 | CIA-104 | BZFlag: TODO, log this error somehow. |
| 00:51.49 | JeffM | that should fix Flash's crash |
| 00:52.15 | BulletCatcher | I may take my anti-propaganda campaign more public, soon. |
| 00:53.09 | JeffM | the world will reject logic |
| 00:53.20 | JeffM | unless it's beer battered and fried |
| 00:56.34 | BulletCatcher | JeffM, I haven't looked yet but it seems like we ought to be able to put the same check on the server. |
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| 00:56.35 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v trepan] by ChanServ |
| 00:56.43 | Constitution | ~JeffM++ |
| 00:56.45 | JeffM | yeah probably |
| 00:57.06 | JeffM | tho the check has to be in both places, for old/misconfigured servers, and network coruption |
| 00:57.14 | BulletCatcher | yup |
| 00:57.33 | JeffM | I'm not a fan of the Flag* as a container |
| 00:57.51 | JeffM | I don't see us growing it if maxFlags ever changes with out a reload of the world |
| 00:58.07 | JeffM | that makes it a lot harder to add/remove flags at runtime |
| 01:03.02 | BulletCatcher | In the r22387 change, shouldn't the "index" variable be bounds checked rather than "flags"? |
| 01:08.48 | CIA-104 | BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 * r22388 10/trunk/bzflag/src/bzflag/World.cxx: Nothing to see here.. move along! |
| 01:08.57 | JeffM | I don't know what you are talking about BulletCatcher |
| 01:09.30 | JeffM | just because I hit compile on the wrong project, thought it was bzflag and commited it shoudln't be a problem should it? |
| 01:09.40 | JeffM | silly fbomb deniers |
| 01:09.54 | BulletCatcher | Silly commit deniers. |
| 01:10.08 | JeffM | more commits is better right? |
| 01:10.12 | JeffM | makes development seem alive |
| 01:10.17 | JeffM | I was helping the project |
| 01:10.18 | JeffM | :) |
| 01:10.31 | JeffM | or how about this, beardy made me do it |
| 01:10.36 | JeffM | that work for yah? |
| 01:10.37 | trepan | zombie code nevers dies, apparently |
| 01:10.50 | BulletCatcher | That'll work. |
| 01:11.08 | JeffM | I have yet to head back on him from my last email |
| 01:11.25 | JeffM | where I said I could not help him unless he sent me the actual code he modified |
| 01:19.59 | blast007 | maybe he's trying to figure out how to diff source code by writing a program in assembly |
| 01:24.05 | JeffM | me may be sad I'm no longer giving him really long emails to turn into quotes |
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| 02:41.17 | L4m3r | if my plugin has to include bzfs.h, I did something wrong, right? :) |
| 02:41.58 | blast007 | heh, yeah |
| 02:42.05 | blast007 | what is requiring that? |
| 02:42.19 | L4m3r | or at the very least I should go in and "properly" expose the required functionality to the API |
| 02:42.51 | L4m3r | It's for chat filtering, I want to call the native chat filter from a plugin |
| 02:43.23 | L4m3r | it *works*, it's just kind of ghetto. having to build it with bzflag is kind of annoying too. |
| 02:46.31 | BulletCatcher | As I understand it, it works when plugins call back to routines in the main executable on Linux but not on Windows. |
| 02:47.29 | L4m3r | wouldn't surprise me |
| 02:48.49 | blast007 | that works, currently ;) |
| 02:48.57 | blast007 | we could fix that if we really wanted |
| 02:49.35 | blast007 | GCC offers a similar type of separation |
| 02:50.17 | L4m3r | oh look, my bzfs console is full of profanity. how fun! |
| 02:54.14 | L4m3r | well, it'd be pretty easy to add an API function that calls the swear filter. Any objections? :) |
| 02:58.33 | blast007 | what's the purpose of doing that? |
| 03:01.37 | L4m3r | it'd allow plugins to utilize the native chat filtering |
| 03:02.06 | L4m3r | there's a filter event, but it's only a notification |
| 03:04.22 | L4m3r | my plugin basically changes the behavior of the built-in filter... instead of censoring chat, messages with inappropriate language just get dropped (and the player is notified) |
| 03:05.24 | L4m3r | if it's not worth having, I can just post the plugin as-is in the forums and Windows servers can be SOL. Who serves on Windows anyway? :) |
| 03:11.24 | L4m3r | or maybe I should just write my own filtering algorithm... the standard one is quirky |
| 03:13.21 | JeffM | nobody servers on windows |
| 03:13.30 | JeffM | just make an API to the native one |
| 03:13.36 | JeffM | thats the "right way" to do it |
| 03:15.18 | JeffM | what functions do you call? |
| 03:16.20 | L4m3r | clOptions->filter.filter (and clOptions->filter.filterSimple) |
| 03:16.38 | L4m3r | I can add it, it's pretty simple. just return a bz string right? |
| 03:16.42 | JeffM | yeah just wrap those up in bz_ versions and slap em in the API |
| 03:16.43 | JeffM | yeah |
| 03:16.50 | JeffM | should take 5 min |
| 03:34.55 | blast007 | L4m3r: just trying to think when you'd want that. |
| 03:35.17 | blast007 | you'd only have filtered words when the filter is already being used, no? |
| 03:35.54 | L4m3r | the event to modify chat messages comes before the swear filter, so no |
| 03:36.19 | JeffM | it'll still be filtered before it gets sent |
| 03:36.43 | L4m3r | not unless you change/kill it first |
| 03:37.05 | JeffM | it should still be filtered if you change it |
| 03:37.08 | JeffM | that happens after |
| 03:38.03 | L4m3r | right, but if you end up removing the part that gets filtered (say, by setting the message to ""), it won't do anything |
| 03:39.03 | JeffM | sure |
| 03:39.16 | JeffM | if you send an empty message it won't send anything |
| 03:39.24 | JeffM | how is that different from what you are doing now? |
| 03:39.58 | L4m3r | that's exactly what I'm doing now |
| 03:40.13 | L4m3r | I guess it could also be used for any arbitrary player input stuff, say, in a command |
| 03:40.34 | JeffM | there are 2 events, one pre filter and one post filter |
| 03:40.47 | JeffM | if you edit it pre filter then your edits are still filtered |
| 03:40.56 | JeffM | there is no need for you to filter in the prefilter event |
| 03:41.03 | JeffM | since it will be filtered anyway |
| 03:41.09 | JeffM | even with your edits |
| 03:41.21 | JeffM | if it filters down to an empty string it should not be sent |
| 03:42.10 | L4m3r | my version is basically "If the filter catches anything, kill the message" |
| 03:42.26 | JeffM | so you just want a stronger filter? |
| 03:42.41 | JeffM | I think there is a "filter cought something" message |
| 03:42.52 | L4m3r | yeah, there is, but it's only a notification |
| 03:43.25 | JeffM | ok, then it sounds like you don't want a function to call the filter, you want to have a mod event when the filter gets something |
| 03:43.30 | JeffM | thats the logical way around it |
| 03:43.50 | JeffM | you want to install your own rules into the existing filter system |
| 03:45.35 | L4m3r | Do you think that's a good approach though? |
| 03:45.52 | JeffM | yeah , it extends our current system it dosn't brute force it |
| 03:46.04 | JeffM | and it lets multiple plugins make edits |
| 03:46.52 | L4m3r | my understanding was that it goes message -> plugin filtering -> plugin notification -> badwords filtering -> badwords notification |
| 03:46.56 | JeffM | it also dosn't call the filter twice |
| 03:47.05 | JeffM | yeah you filter twice |
| 03:47.08 | JeffM | that's not efficent |
| 03:47.32 | L4m3r | I don't think filtering the empty string carries a lot of overhead :) |
| 03:47.34 | JeffM | your plugin isn't filtering differently then the normal filter, you are just changing the responce when a filtered item is hit |
| 03:47.53 | JeffM | the method dosn't work for other responce mechanisms like word replacment |
| 03:48.07 | JeffM | so yes I prefer the more generic solution |
| 03:48.44 | JeffM | you tend to use narrow solutions |
| 03:49.31 | L4m3r | not necessarily, I think that exposing the filter could be useful for things other than chat messages |
| 03:49.42 | JeffM | such as? |
| 03:49.59 | JeffM | all text input/output in bzflag goes through the chat system |
| 03:50.18 | JeffM | where will you oputput text that won't be filtered? |
| 03:50.19 | JeffM | to a log? |
| 03:50.46 | JeffM | and even then if the input is chat, get the post filter message |
| 03:51.39 | L4m3r | I don't think commands get filtered |
| 03:52.01 | JeffM | yeah cus who cares if they have curse words, they arn't retransmited |
| 03:52.17 | JeffM | name your command fBomb :) |
| 03:52.23 | JeffM | nobody will ever see it |
| 03:53.34 | L4m3r | ok, here's one- say you've got an IRC bridge to the server |
| 03:54.11 | JeffM | again the text comes from chat, or goes to chat and will be filtered |
| 03:54.23 | L4m3r | forwarding IRC chat into the game (why, I can't imagine) |
| 03:54.40 | JeffM | unless the API send chat function does not filter, if it does not , it should |
| 03:54.57 | L4m3r | unless you're adding pseudo-players for the people in IRC, you'd need a way to filter the server messages that the plugin spits out |
| 03:55.12 | JeffM | thats why I said that the plugin message should filter |
| 03:55.25 | L4m3r | what if it's a server message? |
| 03:55.29 | JeffM | it should not be the plug-in's responsiblity to filter |
| 03:55.36 | JeffM | a server message should not have curse words :) |
| 03:56.06 | JeffM | if it does the owner should not have installed that plugin |
| 03:57.38 | JeffM | yeah looks like bz_sendTextMessage dosn't filter, but the bot API function does |
| 03:57.41 | JeffM | that should be fixed |
| 03:58.23 | L4m3r | /say [bad words here] ;) |
| 03:58.34 | JeffM | that goes into the chat system |
| 03:58.55 | L4m3r | doesn't look that way on the server I'm using |
| 03:59.02 | JeffM | then we should fix that |
| 03:59.11 | JeffM | fix bugs, don't make systems to let plugins work around them |
| 03:59.32 | L4m3r | sounds like a design question to me |
| 04:00.21 | JeffM | a good design always does common things in one place |
| 04:00.31 | JeffM | your design wants multiple plugins each filtering for what it needs |
| 04:00.42 | JeffM | i"m not saying there isn't some need out there for access to the filter |
| 04:00.47 | JeffM | but this problem is not one of them |
| 04:01.07 | L4m3r | I'm not arguing that |
| 04:01.59 | JeffM | I've modified the post filter event to not be a notification |
| 04:02.12 | JeffM | and I've fixed the api funciton that sends chat to have it filter |
| 04:02.25 | JeffM | it's just replacing sendMessage with sendChatMessage |
| 04:03.55 | CIA-104 | BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 * r22389 10/trunk/bzflag/src/bzfs/ (bzfs.cxx bzfsAPI.cxx): |
| 04:03.55 | CIA-104 | BZFlag: make bz_eFilteredChatMessageEvent able to change the chat message if it wants to do additional filter responses. |
| 04:03.55 | CIA-104 | BZFlag: make bz_sendTextMessage use the chat filter system, server side players already did. |
| 04:04.09 | JeffM | so with that just set the filtered message to empty and it'll use that |
| 04:05.12 | L4m3r | another thought- speculative |
| 04:05.35 | L4m3r | the raw chat message event is passed to the plugins sequentially, I take it |
| 04:06.24 | L4m3r | so, the plugin can't tell at that point whether the message has been modified or not |
| 04:08.13 | JeffM | yeah that should never have been a modify event |
| 04:08.58 | L4m3r | well, the use cases are limited, logging is the only reason I can think of that someone would prefer the unfiltered message |
| 04:09.07 | JeffM | yeah |
| 04:09.17 | JeffM | tho you get the unfiltered message in the filtered case too |
| 04:09.21 | L4m3r | but yeah, in theory maybe it should be notify -> modify -> notify -> filter -> ... |
| 04:09.43 | L4m3r | hm |
| 04:09.43 | JeffM | well optimialy what I'd do is make each pluign register a filter handler |
| 04:09.59 | L4m3r | is the unfiltered message before or after plugin modification though? |
| 04:10.09 | JeffM | it's going to be after mods |
| 04:10.28 | JeffM | I'd be ok with making the first message notify only if I knew it would not break much |
| 04:11.27 | L4m3r | yeah, you'd want to call that first notify the "raw chat message" and then ad a new one afterward right? |
| 04:11.39 | L4m3r | s/ad/add/ |
| 04:11.41 | JeffM | no I would not let people modify it before the filter |
| 04:11.46 | JeffM | there is NO reason to |
| 04:12.19 | L4m3r | I guess not, since you could still init the filter without -filterChat |
| 04:12.20 | JeffM | I'd maybe add one at the end that was for "this chat message was actualy sent" |
| 04:12.48 | JeffM | the more I think about it the less I think we need the raw notification |
| 04:12.57 | JeffM | since you can use the filter message as a raw notification |
| 04:13.01 | L4m3r | as I said, speculative |
| 04:13.07 | L4m3r | that's true too |
| 04:13.21 | JeffM | meh we'll redo it all if bzflag dosn't die |
| 04:13.36 | L4m3r | well now I fell stupid |
| 04:13.50 | L4m3r | ah, nevermind |
| 04:15.17 | L4m3r | the filtering function doesn't seem to work with filterchat turned off, maybe it's a sanity check somewhere |
| 04:15.48 | JeffM | yeah, I'd call it all the time |
| 04:15.57 | JeffM | uf we got rid of the unfiltered one |
| 04:16.34 | L4m3r | yup, if you use -filtercallsigns the hack plugin still works (calling the filter directly) |
| 04:16.59 | JeffM | you can always do what you want in your plugin |
| 04:17.03 | L4m3r | I'm guessing it won't load the filter if you don't ask it filter anything |
| 04:17.07 | JeffM | just don't check that sucker in using bzfs.h |
| 04:17.17 | L4m3r | haha, oh no, never |
| 04:17.17 | JeffM | the filter can be a ram hog |
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| 04:17.30 | JeffM | and a CPU hog |
| 04:17.39 | JeffM | thats the main reason I don't want it run twice |
| 04:17.50 | L4m3r | well, if filterchat was off it'd only run once |
| 04:17.57 | JeffM | if |
| 04:18.22 | JeffM | the plugin developer should not have to worry about other settings on the server |
| 04:19.52 | L4m3r | it can hog memory because of the size of the swearlist right? |
| 04:20.36 | L4m3r | it looked like a std::map with all the words or something |
| 04:21.02 | JeffM | yeah |
| 04:21.17 | L4m3r | oh, std::set |
| 04:21.36 | JeffM | probalby calls find |
| 04:21.40 | JeffM | and that does a binary search |
| 04:22.24 | L4m3r | while my main objective was to integrate nicely existing stuff, I'll admit part of the reason for using the bz filter is that writing out an algorithm would be a pita |
| 04:22.24 | JeffM | if it's a map it'll sort on insert and do a binary search on each lookup |
| 04:22.47 | JeffM | yeah there is no point in having 2 filters |
| 04:23.21 | L4m3r | well, you could load one in a plugin and ditch the standard one |
| 04:23.33 | L4m3r | but I like keeping plugin config to a minimum |
| 04:24.12 | JeffM | yay.. game data update system works |
| 04:24.27 | L4m3r | I once wrote a replacement filtering plugin that used a goofy tree, but it wasn't as robust as the standard one obviously |
| 04:24.47 | JeffM | it's the near matches that are hard to do |
| 04:24.49 | L4m3r | and it'd probably fall on its face with a huge swearlist anyway |
| 04:24.54 | L4m3r | yeah, exactly |
| 04:25.19 | JeffM | optimaly the filter would be threaded and plugins could install rule modules to it that would run in each thread |
| 04:25.29 | JeffM | so chat would hang out untill it was processed |
| 04:26.08 | L4m3r | mine was fast, I think it only had to walk each message once |
| 04:26.22 | L4m3r | but it needed exact matching |
| 04:26.59 | JeffM | I'm bulding my chat system to run in it's own thread and just a FIFO system |
| 04:27.10 | JeffM | it runs totaly indpenendent of the game thread |
| 04:27.29 | JeffM | since it may have to send and receive chat from other servers |
| 04:31.29 | L4m3r | I hadn't thought about checking this plugin in, should I? |
| 04:31.35 | JeffM | no |
| 04:31.55 | JeffM | well you should check it into your personal VCS of course |
| 04:32.02 | JeffM | but I don't think we need it in the mainline |
| 04:32.15 | L4m3r | mmk |
| 04:32.35 | L4m3r | I mean, I originally was just going to leave it on the forums because it's gross, but now it's not gross |
| 04:33.09 | JeffM | if it was going to be mainlined it'd probably just be an option for the xisting filter, to clear chats that get hit insted of replacment |
| 04:33.22 | L4m3r | yeah, I thought about that too |
| 04:33.44 | JeffM | has there been a lot of call for that? |
| 04:33.55 | L4m3r | no idea |
| 04:34.05 | JeffM | what made you wan tto write it? |
| 04:34.48 | L4m3r | I've had it in my head forever, but... heh, given recent drama I think it could be time to throw it out there |
| 04:35.07 | JeffM | yeah that's the best way to deal with drama, block all communications :) |
| 04:35.21 | L4m3r | I do like filtering better than blocking |
| 04:36.10 | L4m3r | but if you employ filtering IMO you should let people trip the filter, it's kind of pointless if you're going to punish people for using it |
| 04:36.29 | JeffM | most MMOs do filtering |
| 04:36.34 | JeffM | I belive it happens client side |
| 04:37.01 | JeffM | have the server push a filter list to the client on connect |
| 04:37.09 | JeffM | then let the client have additional words |
| 04:37.16 | JeffM | and just have everyone filter what they want |
| 04:37.43 | L4m3r | client side is best, definitely, but most of "the community" does not see it that way :) |
| 04:37.58 | L4m3r | and that's fine, really |
| 04:38.00 | JeffM | the are just used to what they have gotten in the past |
| 04:38.26 | JeffM | and since we are based on letting owners chooise what players can see so much, thats what they thing |
| 04:38.28 | JeffM | think |
| 04:38.31 | L4m3r | I just think that, given the general attitude of not wanting to see or hear it anywhere, blocking foul language entirely makes more sense |
| 04:38.45 | JeffM | sure, but that should not be a server choice |
| 04:38.57 | JeffM | as an admin I may want to see it to know that someone is being an ass |
| 04:39.08 | JeffM | with server side filtering there is no way for an admnin to see what was said |
| 04:39.14 | JeffM | specialy if you blow the line out |
| 04:39.53 | L4m3r | sounds like a job for logging, maybe |
| 04:40.08 | JeffM | no, send filtered chat to an admin only channel |
| 04:40.15 | JeffM | then they have it in a tab as reference |
| 04:40.31 | JeffM | the client should know if you are an admin and help you |
| 04:40.48 | JeffM | much like IRC clients know when you get ops and open up new menu items |
| 04:41.58 | L4m3r | it sort of reminds me of my days as the evil highschool forum admin |
| 04:42.19 | L4m3r | vBulletin had an option to just hide a given user's post from everyone except that user- it was perfect |
| 04:42.36 | JeffM | thats kinda mean |
| 04:42.45 | JeffM | censorship at it's most devious |
| 04:42.56 | L4m3r | I know, right? but it WORKED |
| 04:43.13 | JeffM | why not just ban them? |
| 04:43.19 | JeffM | you are doing the SAME thing |
| 04:43.20 | L4m3r | school forums suck because people post from school |
| 04:43.55 | L4m3r | eventually we solved most issues by preventing registration from the campus IP, so IP bans started to work |
| 04:44.44 | L4m3r | it's almost the same thing, but the censorship method doesn't tell the troublemaker that they're banned right away |
| 04:44.54 | JeffM | yeah you just delay it |
| 04:45.07 | JeffM | not really a solution just a delaying tactic |
| 04:45.10 | L4m3r | so I had a little more time to clean up before they figured it out |
| 04:50.45 | L4m3r | but yeah, once the jerks couldn't make new accounts from the computer labs anymore, most of the issues went away |
| 04:56.34 | JeffM | yeah there are many ways to manage users |
| 04:57.35 | CIA-104 | BZFlag: 03Manslaughter 07http://wiki.bzflag.org * r0 10/User:Manslaughter: |
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| 08:29.00 | CIA-104 | BZFlag: 03l4m3rthanyou * r22390 10/trunk/bzflag/src/bzfs/bzfs.cxx: Give the server a pass even though it might not have the talk permission, null-terminate resized chat messages, and do not send empty chat messages. |
| 08:43.34 | Constitution | <PROTECTED> |
| 08:48.57 | L4m3r | heh |
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| 12:32.25 | saxobeat | hello, i can't connect to Castle Warfare (02.bztank.net:5155) |
| 12:33.51 | saxobeat | the error message is (after some waiting): Server not found |
| 12:37.23 | brad | maybe issues with the server - look at http://bzstats.strayer.de/servers/stats/?serverid=38886&lang=en |
| 12:37.42 | brad | the graph shows a lot of connection "issues" |
| 12:48.26 | saxobeat | ty, connecting by IP address (78.129.251.72) succeeded |
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| 16:25.40 | ahs3- | Anyone know of a way to only show teammates on radar? Also is there a way to only show kills in Team FFA teamscore? |
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| 20:37.43 | allejo | ahs3-, I think that the only way to do that would be through a client mod. a plugin could be used to set the team deaths to 0 though but it'll still show 27-0 as the team score |
| 20:39.19 | ahs3- | aha |
| 20:39.58 | ahs3- | cool thanks allejo |
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