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| 02:41.01 | ts3d | Anyone: How does the boxwall texture map to a world unit? |
| 02:41.37 | ts3d | I'm doing some modeling(meshes) and I want to match a standard box. |
| 02:43.43 | JeffM1 | <PROTECTED> |
| 02:47.38 | ts3d | I'll try and match against a real box, thanks. |
| 02:47.54 | JeffM1 | export a map as obj |
| 02:48.33 | ts3d | doing that, sketchup -> obj in wings3d -> bzw |
| 02:49.07 | ts3d | wings3d is adding .333 specular, kind of annoying. |
| 02:49.41 | ts3d | Wish I understood erlang, I would just port trepan's plugin to sketchup. |
| 02:52.08 | JeffM1 | so learn it |
| 02:52.59 | ts3d | lots of things i should learn. |
| 02:54.14 | JeffM1 | languages are the easy part |
| 02:55.04 | ts3d | Got any tips? ha |
| 02:55.23 | allejo | JeffM1: the "getting it to work" part is the difficult :P |
| 02:55.25 | JeffM1 | if you know how to program just look at the language |
| 02:55.31 | JeffM1 | it's just syntax |
| 02:56.23 | ts3d | I'm plainfully unimaginative. I learn syntax easily enough. |
| 02:56.33 | ts3d | After that I in the dark. |
| 02:56.37 | ts3d | I'm* |
| 02:56.45 | JeffM1 | then you need to learn how to actualty program |
| 02:56.47 | JeffM1 | not script |
| 02:57.38 | ts3d | ^) |
| 03:00.18 | JeffM1 | and really all you need to do is learn enough of the language to see what he's doing |
| 03:00.23 | JeffM1 | bzw is not a complex format |
| 03:02.28 | ts3d | bzw i'm done by hand, need to learn a little erlang and ruby |
| 03:03.21 | ts3d | i've* |
| 03:03.59 | JeffM1 | the wings exporter just does meshes IIRC, so it would just burn the UVs into the mesh |
| 03:05.11 | ts3d | might be easier to port the blender plugin, python and ruby are more alike and erlang and ruby |
| 03:05.19 | ts3d | than* |
| 03:05.49 | JeffM1 | it does a different thing |
| 03:06.17 | JeffM1 | sketchup is a mesh editor so it has more in comon with wings |
| 03:06.31 | JeffM1 | heck modeltool will convert from obj to bzw |
| 03:06.32 | JeffM1 | use that |
| 03:14.15 | ts3d | is the latest version 1.99? |
| 03:14.23 | mdskpr_ | 2.4.0 |
| 03:14.32 | mdskpr_ | oh nvm |
| 03:14.44 | ts3d | :p |
| 03:14.48 | JeffM1 | whatever is in svn is the latest |
| 03:14.51 | ts3d | talking abotu model tool :p |
| 03:15.11 | ts3d | ah its in repo |
| 03:15.52 | JeffM1 | everything we make is |
| 03:16.32 | ts3d | just remember it being somewhere else |
| 03:16.53 | JeffM1 | it would not be part of the project if it was |
| 03:24.03 | JeffM1 | or we could convert to a better map representation that allowed fore more interesting geometrics :) |
| 03:25.47 | ts3d | If you wanna rewrite the collision detection code :D |
| 03:26.00 | JeffM1 | that has to be done anywayt |
| 03:26.09 | ts3d | Yup read the readme |
| 03:27.22 | JeffM1 | tho the octree code is probably still fine |
| 03:28.26 | ts3d | Got any recommended reading on those things? |
| 03:28.36 | ts3d | Wikipedia is pretty dry |
| 03:29.07 | JeffM1 | wikipedia is not a text book |
| 03:29.20 | JeffM1 | there are many books on computational geometry and spacial partitioning |
| 03:32.33 | JeffM1 | the concept is pretty simple, just like a quad tree but in 3d |
| 03:32.47 | JeffM1 | you use recursive boxes to split the world up |
| 03:32.53 | JeffM1 | so it's easy to throw out sets of data |
| 03:34.21 | ts3d | I got that I think i just need to refresh up on linear algebra. I got a few books i'm going through atm. |
| 03:34.39 | JeffM1 | vector math is more useful |
| 03:35.12 | ts3d | linear algebra encompasses vectors, no? |
| 03:35.26 | JeffM1 | I don't remember |
| 03:36.24 | ts3d | Two of the books I'm reading finally got me visualizing matrices. |
| 03:36.32 | JeffM1 | just need cross product, dot product and plane equasions |
| 03:38.31 | JeffM1 | I'm not a fan of octrees for big datasets |
| 03:38.42 | JeffM1 | I'd prefer a cell/portal system |
| 03:39.18 | ts3d | bzmaps are big? I thought they are rather small |
| 03:39.29 | JeffM1 | they are now |
| 03:39.31 | ts3d | for an octree |
| 03:39.34 | JeffM1 | why should they have to be? |
| 03:39.43 | JeffM1 | why do they have to be square? |
| 03:39.48 | JeffM1 | why do they have to stop at Z0? |
| 03:41.25 | JeffM1 | why can't you define the "inside" of a building? |
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| 07:39.29 | ts | blast007: I don't think that svn is our problem. Most of the code was refactored and moved around intoother files to improve design. Most old code wouldn't work in new files because the use of new classes. My plan was to have only 1 shared codebase. |
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| 09:03.16 | CIA-109 | BZFlag: 03Ts 07http://wiki.bzflag.org * r8143 10/Category:Leagues: ducati league URI was broken, fixed it |
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| 13:07.41 | delusional | the answer to ts3d's question about textures yesterday is 8 by 8 wu. If he comes back, let him know that the source is here... http://forums.bzflag.org/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=13828&p=135585 |
| 13:07.54 | delusional | he really, really needs that link. |
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| 13:50.06 | blast007 | ts: my point was that a DVCS makes forking and merging easier since you aren't just grabbing one revision when you "fork" a codebase like in SVN. you get the entire history, so it's easier to roll changes back upstream |
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| 16:07.15 | Propane_Tank | who owns the bzflag.org domain |
| 16:07.16 | Propane_Tank | ? |
| 16:07.26 | JeffM | Tim |
| 16:07.27 | JeffM | why? |
| 16:08.35 | Propane_Tank | whats the likelihood that I could get training.bzflag.org? |
| 16:08.41 | JeffM | 0 |
| 16:08.51 | Propane_Tank | ok. that answers my question. |
| 16:08.55 | JeffM | we don't do third party site on the .org |
| 16:08.58 | Propane_Tank | looks like i'll have to register one |
| 16:09.05 | Propane_Tank | is there one you would? |
| 16:09.12 | JeffM | that's what most fansites do |
| 16:09.24 | JeffM | you could possibly get him to give you a .net, he's done that for some servers |
| 16:10.04 | Propane_Tank | In case you are wondering why and haven't read the bzflag is dieing thread, me, swigg, and yosef are heading a project to make a bzflag training website |
| 16:10.13 | Propane_Tank | atleast read it lately |
| 16:10.16 | JeffM | I know exactly what you are doing |
| 16:10.29 | Propane_Tank | oh. |
| 16:10.34 | JeffM | and personaly I don't think a new player is going to take the time to read a site before they play |
| 16:10.42 | JeffM | no games made now require that |
| 16:11.11 | Propane_Tank | i understand that, but at least they have a resource that can browse if they find they need suggestions to help their score |
| 16:11.20 | JeffM | how will they find it? |
| 16:11.27 | JeffM | oh they will quit long before they care about score :) |
| 16:11.32 | Propane_Tank | i might just register bztraining.org. i see it's available |
| 16:12.22 | Propane_Tank | basically we're tring to get more players to stick around and find the real fun in the game |
| 16:12.49 | JeffM | how will they find your site? |
| 16:13.01 | JeffM | read thru a bunch of threads in a forum? |
| 16:13.30 | Propane_Tank | can't regular users post stickies? |
| 16:13.34 | JeffM | nope |
| 16:13.48 | JeffM | but still how would they know to go find one sticky in all that mess |
| 16:13.59 | JeffM | I mean I know what you are trying to do, I just don't think a web page is the right place for it |
| 16:14.04 | JeffM | the game should help people play it |
| 16:14.08 | Propane_Tank | then what is? |
| 16:14.33 | JeffM | tiered entry into online play with forced tutorials and in game tips like all modern games |
| 16:14.35 | Propane_Tank | the ingame help needs a font size increase. you can't hardly read it |
| 16:14.52 | JeffM | the in game help is a joke |
| 16:15.04 | JeffM | bzflag is not a linux console, it dosn't need a man page |
| 16:15.08 | Propane_Tank | no one even reads it anyways |
| 16:15.11 | JeffM | exactly |
| 16:15.23 | JeffM | so why are they going to read a page they have to find when they won't read stuff in game? |
| 16:15.23 | Propane_Tank | well. except me. just to see what it said |
| 16:15.40 | JeffM | what is the most modern game you have played? |
| 16:15.54 | Propane_Tank | now stop bursting my bubble and being so negative |
| 16:16.03 | JeffM | I am being realistic |
| 16:16.06 | Propane_Tank | good question |
| 16:16.11 | JeffM | like I said, I understand what you are trying to do |
| 16:16.23 | JeffM | but it does NO good to have that effort wasted |
| 16:16.33 | JeffM | not every idea is a good idea :) |
| 16:16.54 | BulletCatcher | We could mention the training site in the MOTD. |
| 16:16.58 | Propane_Tank | the bzflag.org website gets thousands of hits, right? |
| 16:17.10 | Propane_Tank | bullet: now we're thinking |
| 16:17.16 | JeffM | possible, but people don't even read that for upgrades |
| 16:17.18 | JeffM | we've seen that |
| 16:17.43 | Propane_Tank | who has access to edit the bzflag.org website? |
| 16:17.43 | JeffM | you are more then welcome to try, but it will not do what you want it to do |
| 16:17.48 | JeffM | a few people |
| 16:17.51 | Propane_Tank | like? |
| 16:18.04 | JeffM | but honestly lets see your fansite before we start talking about mainpage stuff |
| 16:18.21 | JeffM | cus really if it's going to be listed on the main page, it should be our page, or at least in our wiki |
| 16:18.26 | JeffM | not a third party site |
| 16:18.31 | JeffM | consistency and all that |
| 16:18.53 | JeffM | still, what is the most modern game you have played? |
| 16:18.54 | Propane_Tank | well first we have to build it. give me a week or so. depends on the availability of the people helping with it |
| 16:19.07 | JeffM | how do you know what your target audence expects? |
| 16:19.12 | Propane_Tank | probably minecraft, but minecraft multiplayer is shit |
| 16:19.21 | JeffM | language, again please |
| 16:19.28 | Propane_Tank | again?~ |
| 16:19.34 | JeffM | any other realtime FPS action games? |
| 16:19.44 | JeffM | cus that's what your target player has played before |
| 16:19.45 | Propane_Tank | realtime. nope |
| 16:20.00 | JeffM | perhaps you should research what else is out there? |
| 16:20.19 | JeffM | not everyone found bzflag the same way you did |
| 16:21.25 | JeffM | I mean if you honstly want to have a shot at your goal |
| 16:21.59 | JeffM | if you want to just make a fansite with your tips, then sure go for it. But if you want to keep people then you need to explain to them how bzflag is totaly different then all the other online games they have played. |
| 16:22.17 | JeffM | and why they should not just go play world of tanks |
| 16:22.23 | BulletCatcher | If the training site looks useful, I don't see a problem with integrating it into the project web site. |
| 16:22.24 | BulletCatcher | We would just need to solve the technical problem of restricting permissions. |
| 16:22.50 | JeffM | sure, at that point we host it and it could have a real domain |
| 16:22.55 | JeffM | a .org |
| 16:23.29 | BulletCatcher | Propane_Tank, is there anything about your plans that wouldn't fit into the framwork of our existing wiki? |
| 16:24.41 | Propane_Tank | we could throw it in the wiki...out basic plans were to do some screen casting of many of the different maneuvers and dodging and the like. |
| 16:25.01 | Propane_Tank | outline some of the many things of the game |
| 16:25.12 | Propane_Tank | set up a training map |
| 16:25.29 | Propane_Tank | anyone know of any AI bots? |
| 16:25.46 | JeffM | there are no good ones |
| 16:26.06 | Propane_Tank | any bad ones? |
| 16:26.07 | JeffM | the bzrobots project was never finished |
| 16:26.15 | JeffM | solo bots are very bad |
| 16:26.25 | Propane_Tank | does solo even work in multiplayer? |
| 16:26.36 | JeffM | well since there is no single player bzflag, yes |
| 16:26.44 | Propane_Tank | multiplayer as in server side |
| 16:26.56 | JeffM | bzflag always has a server, so yes |
| 16:27.10 | JeffM | solo bots are run by a connected client |
| 16:27.19 | JeffM | the server itself has no ability to run robot players |
| 16:27.22 | Propane_Tank | so i can run -solo x and it would run the server with x bots? |
| 16:27.27 | JeffM | no |
| 16:27.42 | Propane_Tank | so that smashes that idea |
| 16:27.45 | JeffM | you run the bzflag client with -solo, connect to a server and you and X bots join the server |
| 16:27.52 | JeffM | server side players were never finished |
| 16:27.57 | Propane_Tank | how far along percentage wise is the bzrobots project? |
| 16:28.01 | JeffM | if they were, we'd have a tutorial server ;) |
| 16:28.08 | JeffM | bzrobots is also a client based system |
| 16:28.10 | JeffM | not server based |
| 16:28.15 | Propane_Tank | ah grr |
| 16:28.18 | JeffM | it was made for a school project |
| 16:28.24 | Propane_Tank | anything bot wise serverside? |
| 16:28.37 | JeffM | perhaps you should also research what bzflag can do a bit more before you write your articles? |
| 16:28.39 | JeffM | nope |
| 16:28.52 | JeffM | if we had server side bots, we'd have a turorial server by now |
| 16:29.16 | BulletCatcher | For training, it would be useful to have bots that would repeat a single maneuver for target practice, as in a shooting gallery. |
| 16:29.22 | JeffM | yes |
| 16:29.26 | BulletCatcher | No real AI required. |
| 16:29.28 | Propane_Tank | well i gotta go eat so i can go to work in a few minutes. i'll be back at around 6ish central time |
| 16:29.31 | JeffM | that's what server side bots were intended for :) |
| 16:29.46 | JeffM | ssps tied to lua scripts and event triggers (zones) |
| 16:29.57 | JeffM | and have the scripts show in game dialog boxes |
| 16:30.31 | JeffM | so you go into a map area, it triggers a bot, shows the "shoot this dude" instruction dialog and dosn't let you go on untill you shoot that dude |
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| 16:36.33 | JeffM | wonders how world of tanks is doing |
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| 17:51.34 | delusional | may never know ...no mac version |
| 18:08.06 | blast007 | our MOTD system is worthless |
| 18:13.49 | ruskie | heh |
| 18:32.10 | JeffM | what!!! people don't read things in the middle of that stream of text that comes up when the game starts.... nawwwww |
| 18:37.54 | blast007 | you forgot "behind the menu" too ;) |
| 18:38.07 | JeffM | yeah |
| 18:38.13 | blast007 | "behind the menu that has a mouse cursor but can't click on anything" |
| 18:38.19 | JeffM | naw bzflag wasn't designed by unix users... naw... |
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| 18:39.19 | JeffM | do games on steam even ship with a manual? |
| 18:39.30 | blast007 | we should just replace our menu system with the IRIX fsn application |
| 18:39.43 | blast007 | "This is a Unix system.. I *know* this!" |
| 18:39.54 | JeffM | you will only have to configure it once right? |
| 18:40.46 | blast007 | steam games don't include a manual |
| 18:40.55 | blast007 | but most games have a tutorial :) |
| 18:40.56 | JeffM | they seem to get by, hats and all |
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| 19:13.12 | blast007 | bleh, building stuff for linux is fun.... |
| 19:13.28 | blast007 | think I have the debian/control file set up |
| 19:13.37 | blast007 | working on debian/rules now |
| 19:14.02 | blast007 | "./configure --prefix=/usr --enable-robots --enable-bzadmin --enable-client --enable-debug" so much useless stuff in here |
| 19:14.29 | JeffM | you don't want debug do you? |
| 19:25.56 | blast007 | well, there I do |
| 19:26.03 | blast007 | it's within an "if you want debugging" section |
| 19:26.17 | blast007 | but the other --enable stuff is useless |
| 19:29.08 | blast007 | guess I'll see if this works |
| 19:30.04 | blast007 | got two VMs - one to get the debian directory set up properly and build a source deb and a .dsc file, and one to try building it on within a cowbuilder/pbuilder chroot |
| 20:05.13 | ts | I've seen games in steam that have a manual link in the library which points to a PDF on a valve server. Not that I'd actually read the manual except something doesn't work. |
| 20:27.07 | blast007 | I don't even get how to make the .deb's anymore.. |
| 20:58.38 | blast007 | "The build target must not do anything that might require root privilege." |
| 20:59.00 | blast007 | hmm.. guess that's right |
| 21:00.28 | blast007 | I wonder if the original source tar.gz and debian directory tar.gz are manually created normally |
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| 22:20.12 | blast007 | weeeeeeee |
| 22:20.57 | JeffM | it's good to know our network is as reliable as our maintainer |
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| 22:21.15 | blast007 | they're doing IRCd upgrades |
| 22:21.15 | JeffM | ahh ok, more reliable then our maintainer |
| 22:21.15 | a_meteorite | Ack |
| 22:21.33 | *** join/#bzflag Legoguy_ (~Legoguy@S0106c0c1c0fb35f3.ed.shawcable.net) |
| 22:21.33 | *** join/#bzflag DarkCalff (DC@173.231.40.98) |
| 22:21.33 | *** join/#bzflag Constitution (~const@bzflag/developer/Constitution) |
| 22:21.33 | blast007 | :) |
| 22:21.33 | JeffM | ping |
| 22:21.33 | JeffM | oh wait, out of order, sorry |
| 22:21.56 | blast007 | Syn |
| 22:21.56 | a_meteorite | Propane_Tank: Oh, hey. Fancy seeing you here. |
| 22:21.56 | blast007 | Ack |
| 22:21.56 | blast007 | Syn-Ack |
| 22:23.09 | *** join/#bzflag ibot (~ibot@rikers.org) |
| 22:23.09 | *** topic/#bzflag is http://my.BZFlag.org || http://cia.vc/stats/project/BZFlag || http://my.BZFlag.org/w/Getting_Help || Channel Logs: http://ibot.rikers.org/%23bzflag/ || BZFlag 2.4.2 is in devlopment, please take a task || The PLAN http://my.bzflag.org/w/Development_RoadMap |
| 22:23.10 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o ibot] by ChanServ |
| 22:23.12 | *** join/#bzflag [dmp] (~dennis@users.d75.net) |
| 22:23.12 | *** join/#bzflag [dmp] (~dennis@unaffiliated/dmp/x-546784) |
| 22:23.16 | JeffM | damn it came back |
| 22:23.17 | blast007 | ~useless |
| 22:23.17 | ibot | ACTION starts crying and hides from blast007 in the darkest corner of the room. :( |
| 22:23.23 | blast007 | heh |
| 22:23.39 | a_meteorite | ~frag blast007 |
| 22:23.39 | ibot | No, I refuse |
| 22:23.44 | JeffM | see |
| 22:23.53 | blast007 | ~frag |
| 22:23.55 | a_meteorite | useless |
| 22:23.56 | blast007 | ~frag a_meteorite |
| 22:23.57 | ibot | ACTION readies the nuke launcher and fires some rounds at a_meteorite |
| 22:24.05 | blast007 | works for me :) |
| 22:24.17 | JeffM | ibot who's your daddy? |
| 22:24.18 | ibot | YOU are, Mr Sexy Pants! |
| 22:24.21 | a_meteorite | LOL! |
| 22:24.22 | JeffM | damn stright |
| 22:24.59 | blast007 | ~bzfrag a_meteorite |
| 22:24.59 | ibot | ACTION blindsides a_meteorite with an invisible bullet |
| 22:25.12 | a_meteorite | ~bzfrag blast007 |
| 22:25.12 | ibot | ACTION tries to kill blast007 but gets blown away by skill |
| 22:25.18 | *** join/#bzflag sam (sam@poulet.zoy.org) |
| 22:25.20 | *** join/#bzflag Gilly (~btw@83.146.211.140) |
| 22:25.20 | *** join/#bzflag Gilly (~btw@about/essy/ilkimys/gilly) |
| 22:25.24 | *** join/#bzflag brad (~brad@moooo.org) |
| 22:25.31 | blast007 | I've rigged both of those, a_meteorite :P |
| 22:25.33 | *** join/#bzflag Pimpinella (~frank@gondolin.pimpi.org) |
| 22:25.37 | *** join/#bzflag rathis (~rathis@5e09e8ba.bb.sky.com) |
| 22:25.40 | AAA_awright | Propane_Tank: Bots in general are though |
| 22:25.52 | a_meteorite | yup, he's useless. can't even kill YOU. :P |
| 22:26.03 | a_meteorite | Yeah, I figured that |
| 22:26.03 | blast007 | I know, right? |
| 22:26.08 | JeffM | he said he would not be back till later |
| 22:26.11 | a_meteorite | Probably checks if voiced or opped |
| 22:26.16 | blast007 | nope |
| 22:26.25 | a_meteorite | So... just you? |
| 22:26.27 | blast007 | I don't have any more power over the bot than you do |
| 22:27.02 | a_meteorite | I forget ibot's commands... |
| 22:27.07 | a_meteorite | ~literal bzfrag |
| 22:27.17 | blast007 | works in /msg too |
| 22:27.21 | a_meteorite | oooh k |
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| 22:31.36 | blast007 | reading through the stuff in this guide now... http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/maint-guide/start.en.html |
| 22:31.55 | a_meteorite | debian has a really extensive manual |
| 22:32.00 | blast007 | and I've got the debian directory here: https://code.launchpad.net/~blast007/+junk/bzflag-debian-directory |
| 22:32.13 | JeffM | what percent of players do we get from apt again? |
| 22:33.01 | blast007 | hell if I know |
| 22:33.52 | blast007 | there's quite a number of debian based distros, though |
| 22:35.06 | a_meteorite | probably most via ubuntu I imagine |
| 22:35.53 | a_meteorite | ubuntu's a lot more receptive to quicker updates than debian too, I know debian's release cycle has been mentioned as a possible concern... |
| 22:36.29 | blast007 | a_meteorite: our packages in Ubuntu have just been them pulling it up from Debian |
| 22:36.36 | blast007 | so it hasn't been more up-to-date |
| 22:37.01 | a_meteorite | they could be, I'm not sure the exact process for it, but they could |
| 22:37.28 | a_meteorite | any given ubuntu release always has newer packages than a debian release |
| 22:37.45 | JeffM | that is because the package developers are commiting to debian testing |
| 22:37.52 | JeffM | and thats where ubuntu gets it's stuff |
| 22:37.57 | JeffM | we haven't commited anything |
| 22:38.04 | JeffM | so ubuntu is just as old as debian |
| 22:38.20 | blast007 | 10.04 has 2.0.13, and after that it's 2.0.14 |
| 22:38.28 | blast007 | 2.0.16* |
| 22:38.29 | a_meteorite | ah. no debian maintainer? or lemme guess, Tim is the debian maintainer? |
| 22:38.36 | blast007 | Tim is |
| 22:38.39 | JeffM | as he has always been |
| 22:38.40 | blast007 | at the moment |
| 22:38.49 | blast007 | we're trying to change that :) |
| 22:38.56 | JeffM | what more do we have to do to break that link? |
| 22:39.18 | blast007 | well, I've just been trying to actually get a build working right 'the debian way' |
| 22:39.40 | JeffM | wont' the games team work on that once they are maintainers? |
| 22:39.49 | blast007 | shrugs |
| 22:40.10 | blast007 | If I'm gonna join that, it might be me doing it :) |
| 22:40.19 | JeffM | probably |
| 22:40.26 | JeffM | but I would hope they would help you |
| 22:40.30 | blast007 | yeah |
| 22:40.50 | blast007 | I just don't want to put too much extra work on them |
| 22:41.46 | a_meteorite | http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/developers-reference/pkgs.html#adopting |
| 22:42.15 | blast007 | a_meteorite: we've already talked with the debian games team |
| 22:42.27 | blast007 | the idea is to get that team to take over |
| 22:42.32 | a_meteorite | ah, I see |
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| 23:32.10 | Propane_Tank | well i'm back for a little while |
| 23:48.36 | JeffM | welcome back |