| 00:14.58 | *** join/#bzflag TimRiker (~timr@bzflag/projectlead/TimRiker) |
| 00:14.58 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 00:53.07 | *** join/#bzflag bryjen (~bryjen@cpe-75-81-201-131.we.res.rr.com) |
| 00:53.07 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v bryjen] by ChanServ |
| 03:22.47 | *** join/#bzflag sigonasr2 (~Joshua_Si@ip70-190-212-123.ph.ph.cox.net) |
| 03:58.04 | *** join/#bzflag ibot (ibot@rikers.org) |
| 03:58.04 | *** topic/#bzflag is http://cia.vc/stats/project/BZFlag || http://my.BZFlag.org/w/Getting_Help || Channel Logs: http://ibot.rikers.org/%23bzflag/ || http://ohloh.net/p/bzflag || 2.0.16 is the current release, use it wisely |
| 03:58.04 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o ibot] by ChanServ |
| 04:17.54 | CIA-35 | BZFlag: 03Sigonasr2 07http://my.bzflag.org * r7152 10/w/Observer_Mode: /* Controls */ |
| 04:43.31 | CIA-35 | BZFlag: 03Trepan 07http://my.bzflag.org * r7153 10/w/Observer_Mode: Mention mouse controls and /forceradar |
| 05:30.25 | *** join/#bzflag Will07c5_ (~William@vpn3-14469.near.uiuc.edu) |
| 05:32.55 | *** join/#bzflag L4m3r (~l4m3r@bzflag/developer/L4m3r) |
| 05:32.55 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v L4m3r] by ChanServ |
| 05:34.26 | *** join/#bzflag Will07c5__ (~William@c-24-7-198-158.hsd1.il.comcast.net) |
| 05:49.53 | *** join/#bzflag Will07c5_ (~William@vpn3-14457.near.uiuc.edu) |
| 06:41.27 | *** join/#bzflag jh` (jh@212-149-249-87.bb.dnainternet.fi) |
| 06:54.56 | *** join/#bzflag Marzipan- (~Marzipan@p5B22707E.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 06:56.20 | *** join/#bzflag Marzipan (~Marzipan@bzflag/player/Marzipan) |
| 09:06.00 | *** join/#bzflag Marzipan (~Marzipan@bzflag/player/Marzipan) |
| 09:17.18 | *** join/#bzflag O-Neil (~Miranda@dslb-088-070-094-089.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 09:35.11 | *** join/#bzflag Upsetter (~er@89.246.200.153) |
| 09:57.13 | *** join/#bzflag O-Neil (~Miranda@dslb-088-070-094-089.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 10:00.54 | *** join/#bzflag O-Neil (~Miranda@dslb-088-070-094-089.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 10:08.11 | *** join/#bzflag Pimpinella (~frank@gondolin.pimpi.org) |
| 11:12.04 | *** join/#bzflag ibot (~ibot@rikers.org) |
| 11:12.04 | *** topic/#bzflag is http://cia.vc/stats/project/BZFlag || http://my.BZFlag.org/w/Getting_Help || Channel Logs: http://ibot.rikers.org/%23bzflag/ || http://ohloh.net/p/bzflag || 2.0.16 is the current release, use it wisely |
| 11:12.04 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o ibot] by ChanServ |
| 11:44.05 | *** join/#bzflag ibot (~ibot@rikers.org) |
| 11:44.05 | *** topic/#bzflag is http://cia.vc/stats/project/BZFlag || http://my.BZFlag.org/w/Getting_Help || Channel Logs: http://ibot.rikers.org/%23bzflag/ || http://ohloh.net/p/bzflag || 2.0.16 is the current release, use it wisely |
| 11:44.05 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o ibot] by ChanServ |
| 11:52.07 | *** join/#bzflag bier_ (~bier@p4FCC78C7.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 11:52.27 | *** join/#bzflag bier|tp (~bier@p4FCC78C7.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 12:19.02 | *** join/#bzflag TASAIRES (~TASAIRES@84.121.165.49.dyn.user.ono.com) |
| 12:22.57 | *** join/#bzflag O-Neil (~Miranda@dslb-088-070-094-089.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 13:21.32 | *** join/#bzflag O-Neil (~Miranda@dslb-088-070-094-089.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 13:37.39 | *** join/#bzflag smoooth (~smoooth@cpe-098-024-240-002.ec.res.rr.com) |
| 15:27.50 | *** join/#bzflag sigonasr2 (~Joshua_Si@ip70-190-212-123.ph.ph.cox.net) |
| 15:36.58 | *** join/#bzflag Will07c5 (~William@c-24-7-198-158.hsd1.il.comcast.net) |
| 16:06.21 | *** join/#bzflag temporalD (~ATD@bzflag/serverop/TemporalDistraction) |
| 16:16.12 | *** join/#bzflag JeffM2501 (~JeffM@unaffiliated/jeffm2501) |
| 16:16.12 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v JeffM2501] by ChanServ |
| 16:39.35 | *** join/#bzflag smoooth (~smoooth@cpe-098-024-240-002.ec.res.rr.com) |
| 16:40.54 | *** join/#bzflag Will07c5_ (~William@vpn3-144249.near.uiuc.edu) |
| 16:43.12 | CIA-35 | BZFlag: 03trepan * r21293 10/trunk/bzflag/src/bzfs/ (bzfsAPI.cxx commands.cxx): * partial fix for flag state mismanagement |
| 16:44.48 | blast007 | is there a way to make a texture appear darker without modifying the texture itself? diffuse 0 0 0 0.5 didn't do what I wanted. |
| 16:47.13 | *** join/#bzflag Will07c5__ (~William@c-24-7-198-158.hsd1.il.comcast.net) |
| 16:48.27 | trepan | blast007: that would just make it black, no? |
| 16:48.38 | trepan | diffuse .2 .2 .2 |
| 16:50.42 | blast007 | thanks, that worked |
| 16:52.19 | trepan | was looking into backporting features from 2.99.x into a 2.2.0 branch, doesn't look like it's worth the effort |
| 16:52.55 | JeffM2501 | just let it die ;) |
| 16:52.59 | trepan | yup |
| 17:03.42 | temporalD | so release 3.0 |
| 17:08.42 | *** join/#bzflag Will07c5_ (~William@vpn3-144184.near.uiuc.edu) |
| 17:12.40 | *** join/#bzflag Will07c5__ (~William@c-24-7-198-158.hsd1.il.comcast.net) |
| 17:14.52 | *** join/#bzflag MindstormsKid (~msk@Wikipedia/MindstormsKid) |
| 17:17.05 | *** join/#bzflag Will07c5_ (~William@vpn3-144145.near.uiuc.edu) |
| 17:27.52 | cygal | so what, bzflag is officially dead? |
| 17:28.10 | JeffM2501 | when is anything in bzflag offical? |
| 17:28.20 | JeffM2501 | that should tell you how long ago it died ;) |
| 17:28.57 | JeffM2501 | the things it needs to continue and grow just arn't happening |
| 17:29.41 | cygal | I don't see what's so funny about the situation though. |
| 17:29.57 | JeffM2501 | the fact that it died LONG ago |
| 17:31.15 | cygal | wasn't dead in 2009 |
| 17:31.48 | JeffM2501 | it was limping, when a project gets most of it's develpment from SOC, then there are signs that there is a major problem. |
| 17:32.23 | cygal | it depends on the project. trepan was doing a lot of work too |
| 17:32.37 | trepan | but the seeds of state mismanagement had been sown |
| 17:32.37 | JeffM2501 | yeah he was |
| 17:32.52 | JeffM2501 | yeah one person can't carry the entire prioject |
| 17:33.05 | JeffM2501 | whens' the last time the project leader even said something? |
| 17:33.28 | JeffM2501 | blast007, to his credit has been trying since I gave him my adminship |
| 17:33.39 | JeffM2501 | but so very few people buck up |
| 17:33.55 | JeffM2501 | and then every 6 months we have this talk ;) |
| 17:34.20 | trepan | cygal: and it's not like you see users help test all that much |
| 17:34.40 | trepan | they're more interested in joined 2.0 servers with lots of uber flags 8^) |
| 17:34.42 | JeffM2501 | when is the 5 year mark for 3.0? |
| 17:34.50 | trepan | s/joined/joining/ |
| 17:35.26 | cygal | did we ask them? I thought we had 2 major bugs left before some kind of 'RC' |
| 17:35.53 | JeffM2501 | posts have been put on the fourms for testing |
| 17:35.57 | JeffM2501 | with builds and all |
| 17:36.02 | JeffM2501 | little feedback happens |
| 17:36.06 | JeffM2501 | and little development happens |
| 17:36.49 | JeffM2501 | I mean what is the "bzflag project" realy providing? |
| 17:36.54 | JeffM2501 | an IRC channel? |
| 17:37.30 | JeffM2501 | ohlo has flaged the bzflag sourcebase as declining, for a long time now |
| 17:38.44 | cygal | (which is not a problem in itself) |
| 17:38.55 | JeffM2501 | it is an indicator that is all |
| 17:39.01 | JeffM2501 | but a good third party one |
| 17:39.21 | JeffM2501 | bzflag sure ain't thriving |
| 17:39.31 | JeffM2501 | what's the average player count now? |
| 17:39.35 | JeffM2501 | under 100 reals? |
| 17:39.48 | trepan | peaks at around 100 |
| 17:40.09 | JeffM2501 | yeah, that makes developing for it a lot less worth it, when there are so few people using the software |
| 17:40.23 | JeffM2501 | and most of them want ST+GM+CL combo flags ;) |
| 17:40.30 | cygal | is it really about the number of users? |
| 17:40.34 | cygal | does not think so |
| 17:40.39 | JeffM2501 | it all adds up |
| 17:40.56 | JeffM2501 | it's easier to deal with other problems if you are motivated by a good large userbase |
| 17:41.24 | JeffM2501 | nobody can put there finger on one thing that is "wrong" in bzflag |
| 17:43.03 | JeffM2501 | and I don't think it's a problem with the game concept at it's core, as I think there is much call for free open source action games :) |
| 17:43.56 | jh` | ive always wondered why so few play bz...to me its entertaining |
| 17:44.00 | JeffM2501 | but as always it'll just sit here |
| 17:44.13 | JeffM2501 | jh`, it has a high turnover |
| 17:44.20 | JeffM2501 | people play it for a bit then get bored and moved on |
| 17:44.30 | jh` | too hard perhaps? at first |
| 17:44.31 | JeffM2501 | those that like it prefer the strategy aspect of it |
| 17:44.38 | JeffM2501 | that's part of it |
| 17:44.40 | blast007 | cygal: well, more than 2 major bugs |
| 17:44.43 | JeffM2501 | it's also very confusing |
| 17:44.46 | blast007 | if bzadmin is still important |
| 17:44.47 | blast007 | ;) |
| 17:45.08 | jh` | and not up to date graph? |
| 17:45.25 | JeffM2501 | I think the graphics are the least of the problems |
| 17:45.31 | jh` | oh |
| 17:45.48 | jh` | so lot ppl try but many quit |
| 17:45.55 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 17:45.59 | blast007 | some of the default settings are stupid |
| 17:46.08 | blast007 | like the radar settings for bullets |
| 17:46.14 | JeffM2501 | if you compare the forum registration rates to the player rates it's a lot of turnover |
| 17:46.21 | jh` | ok |
| 17:46.27 | JeffM2501 | the fact that the game dosn't help you play it is stupid :) |
| 17:46.40 | blast007 | I bet a good number of the people that register on the forum don't even play the game.. |
| 17:46.45 | JeffM2501 | if I'm black why can I shoot other black people but if I am colored why can't I shoot other people the same color? |
| 17:46.57 | JeffM2501 | why is there a mouse arrow but I can't click on anything |
| 17:47.07 | JeffM2501 | what is an ossilation overthruster? |
| 17:47.20 | JeffM2501 | why did that guy not die when I shot him? |
| 17:47.30 | JeffM2501 | why did I randomly explode? |
| 17:47.48 | jh` | but i guess every game is hard at beginning.. |
| 17:47.52 | JeffM2501 | nope |
| 17:47.58 | jh` | but some of them have tutorials |
| 17:47.59 | JeffM2501 | most games are designed to have a learning curve |
| 17:48.03 | JeffM2501 | not a learning clif ;) |
| 17:48.09 | JeffM2501 | tutorials are one way |
| 17:48.14 | JeffM2501 | there are many other ways |
| 17:48.26 | JeffM2501 | bzflag lacks consistent design |
| 17:48.36 | JeffM2501 | because the project just lets people check stuff in |
| 17:48.57 | JeffM2501 | in a comercial game project there is a position called "game designer" who makes sure it all fits to the theme and goal of the game. |
| 17:49.23 | JeffM2501 | that's the bigest weakness IMHO of the project as it's setup now |
| 17:49.35 | JeffM2501 | it makes it very easy to make a confusing product |
| 17:51.09 | JeffM2501 | I mean even the current players know something is up look at the "don't let XXXXXX die" posts that pop up |
| 17:56.13 | *** join/#bzflag I_Died_Once (~I_Died_On@c-68-60-212-188.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) |
| 18:05.28 | *** join/#bzflag dcat (~dcat@ip70-188-19-141.rn.hr.cox.net) |
| 18:06.10 | JeffM2501 | october 25th 2005... that's when the first proto break was made for a version not compatable with 2.0.0... bit of a long release cycle |
| 18:08.54 | trepan | release early, release often |
| 18:09.28 | Constitution | we could release a "special 5th anniversary edition" |
| 18:12.55 | *** join/#bzflag Will07c5__ (~William@c-24-7-198-158.hsd1.il.comcast.net) |
| 18:43.51 | JeffM2501 | I think that would make it more sad |
| 18:54.35 | *** join/#bzflag ruskie (ruskie@sourcemage/mage/ruskie) |
| 19:00.05 | Constitution | maybe if we offered it in a metallic tank-shaped "collector's edition" case |
| 19:06.58 | smoooth | bzflag i think is a niche open source game, not sure if it will ever appeal to the masses but just because there are only a few people playing it doesnt mean it has no purpose |
| 19:07.20 | smoooth | i think there are many loyal players and thats all it really takes for something to grow |
| 19:08.17 | smoooth | I think bzflag needs to identify those 100 loyal players and find out what they like about the game or why they play it.. and maybe start spending the effort to support those 100 |
| 19:09.20 | *** join/#bzflag Upsetter1 (~er@89.246.219.131) |
| 19:12.13 | JeffM2501 | smoooth, so you think that the development isn't happening just because nobody knows what the players want? |
| 19:13.05 | JeffM2501 | I find that hard to belive since I can bet you that every one of those people would LOVE it if the bugs that let most cheats happen were fixed |
| 19:13.08 | smoooth | no but just in the comments it seems there is no direction and no one can identify with what the point is, or why develop for 100 |
| 19:13.21 | JeffM2501 | the game has never had a direction |
| 19:13.38 | JeffM2501 | just vauge input from the copyright holder "make it simple" |
| 19:13.56 | smoooth | i like that moto |
| 19:13.57 | JeffM2501 | and it's more then 100 people |
| 19:14.04 | JeffM2501 | it's 100 people at a time |
| 19:14.13 | JeffM2501 | there are probalby 1000+ active players |
| 19:14.22 | JeffM2501 | as a moto sure, as a design document no. |
| 19:16.00 | smoooth | 1000 active players is a good base don't you think? |
| 19:16.05 | JeffM2501 | no |
| 19:16.15 | JeffM2501 | not really in this day in age |
| 19:16.30 | jh` | wow has 10 million:P |
| 19:16.38 | jh` | but i dont like that game at all |
| 19:16.45 | JeffM2501 | 10,000 would be a better starting point |
| 19:16.59 | JeffM2501 | that'd give you about 1000 on at any time |
| 19:17.04 | smoooth | exactly, just because the numbers are small doesnt mean it doesnt have signficance. We are here. We are very loyal. |
| 19:17.12 | JeffM2501 | oh I know you are |
| 19:17.17 | JeffM2501 | never said you wern't |
| 19:17.28 | JeffM2501 | I just said it was harder to be motivated to develop by small numbers |
| 19:17.29 | JeffM2501 | that's it |
| 19:17.42 | smoooth | I understand. |
| 19:18.04 | JeffM2501 | cutting down the turnover rate would be good too |
| 19:18.26 | JeffM2501 | but bzflag's problem is not it's palyers, it's current playerbase is just the results of it's problems |
| 19:18.49 | smoooth | Ultimately what is the point in developing an opensource bzflag? The only really reason is if you love to play the game and you can contribute as a developer. |
| 19:19.05 | smoooth | to make it better for your own sake? |
| 19:19.11 | JeffM2501 | no not always |
| 19:19.18 | JeffM2501 | I've never played the game with any seriousness |
| 19:19.25 | JeffM2501 | it was to learn programing more |
| 19:20.28 | smoooth | Its a dilemma. Ultimately (IMO) I think you need core players to be the developers. but if there arent any... then what do you do. How does a develop know what to do if they have no interst in the game? |
| 19:20.43 | JeffM2501 | thats why you have designers |
| 19:20.55 | JeffM2501 | they play and know how the game "should" work |
| 19:21.04 | smoooth | so bz needs designers |
| 19:21.14 | JeffM2501 | bz needs lots of things |
| 19:21.24 | JeffM2501 | a designer would help stablise it IMHO |
| 19:22.20 | JeffM2501 | but the problem with doing a redesign after the fact would be that it would probably anger some players/devs |
| 19:22.25 | JeffM2501 | since bzflag is kinda 2 games |
| 19:22.26 | smoooth | This seems much like problems i am used to. It seems that development of bz has a completed bureacracy and no one is sure how to make anything happen. In other words seems to be confusion about who is in charge. |
| 19:22.41 | smoooth | complicated* not completed |
| 19:22.44 | JeffM2501 | nobody is in charge |
| 19:22.53 | JeffM2501 | that's how it's always been run |
| 19:23.11 | smoooth | some has to take charge and until that happens nothing will mve |
| 19:23.23 | JeffM2501 | there is no real point in changing bzflag |
| 19:23.35 | JeffM2501 | simpler to fork it, make a new project that is run differently and just let bz die |
| 19:23.40 | JeffM2501 | everything has to have an end |
| 19:23.47 | smoooth | someone needs to be able to say "this is mine" -- "we're doing this", "this is the direction we're taking" |
| 19:23.54 | JeffM2501 | then there will be no confusion about "how it used to be" |
| 19:24.03 | JeffM2501 | yeah and that's why it need a new project |
| 19:24.24 | smoooth | why cant you do that in 3.0? |
| 19:24.42 | JeffM2501 | because this project can't even get 3.0 done |
| 19:24.48 | smoooth | no *you* per se |
| 19:24.51 | JeffM2501 | I'm saying make something that isn't called BZFlag |
| 19:25.01 | JeffM2501 | not owned by tim |
| 19:25.11 | JeffM2501 | not tied to the existing structure |
| 19:25.13 | smoooth | its really "owned" by tim? |
| 19:25.17 | JeffM2501 | yep |
| 19:25.22 | JeffM2501 | he is the copyright holder |
| 19:25.25 | JeffM2501 | he owns bzflag |
| 19:25.36 | smoooth | doesnt chris have some copyright ownership? |
| 19:25.36 | JeffM2501 | he's just really cool and lets you do whatever the heck you want with it |
| 19:25.38 | JeffM2501 | nope |
| 19:25.49 | JeffM2501 | he sold it to tim for 0$ |
| 19:25.53 | smoooth | yikes |
| 19:26.07 | smoooth | do you think tim would sell it to someone else for $ |
| 19:26.12 | JeffM2501 | no |
| 19:26.16 | smoooth | pff |
| 19:26.21 | JeffM2501 | I think he could be confvinced to give it to someone |
| 19:26.39 | JeffM2501 | if that person had similar ideals and tim trusted them |
| 19:26.53 | smoooth | yeah that sucks |
| 19:26.59 | JeffM2501 | not really |
| 19:27.11 | JeffM2501 | nothing would prevent someone from forking it |
| 19:27.22 | smoooth | we can use the same code base |
| 19:27.24 | smoooth | a? |
| 19:27.26 | JeffM2501 | sure |
| 19:27.34 | JeffM2501 | it's license allows it |
| 19:27.42 | smoooth | so why dont you fork it, call it whatever you want and start a new game? |
| 19:27.45 | JeffM2501 | tho I don't think there is anything worth keeping in the codebase |
| 19:27.50 | JeffM2501 | oh I've tried |
| 19:27.57 | JeffM2501 | can't be done alone |
| 19:28.05 | smoooth | ah i see |
| 19:28.42 | smoooth | whats wrong with reusing the code though, sure maybe its not perfect |
| 19:28.54 | smoooth | but maybe start with a "new" game that looks just like bz |
| 19:29.04 | smoooth | and then overtime take it to new levels |
| 19:29.20 | smoooth | i think you need to keep the same look that way you can draw users from bzflag to your "new" game |
| 19:29.20 | JeffM2501 | the main problem with it is that it's not meant for the internet |
| 19:29.26 | JeffM2501 | it's core is broken |
| 19:29.48 | JeffM2501 | the big thing you need to fix is the cheater problem, and you HAVE to do that right off the bat |
| 19:29.53 | JeffM2501 | otherwise you won't get players |
| 19:30.12 | JeffM2501 | and at that point you are pretty much redoing the core of the code |
| 19:30.20 | JeffM2501 | so why not just make a new core and tack stuff onto it |
| 19:30.28 | JeffM2501 | sure you can reuse textures and models |
| 19:30.36 | JeffM2501 | but you want a good foundation to build on |
| 19:30.39 | smoooth | because if you have no resources you need to leverage what you have already |
| 19:30.53 | JeffM2501 | if you have no resources you should not be starting a new project ;) |
| 19:31.07 | smoooth | not no resources, *limited* resources :) |
| 19:31.27 | JeffM2501 | it all depends what your goals are |
| 19:31.57 | smoooth | goal is to continue bzflag as it is, make improvements, and take ownership of the userbase |
| 19:32.06 | smoooth | then overtime |
| 19:32.12 | smoooth | make vast overhauls |
| 19:32.22 | JeffM2501 | I don't think that's a well defined enough goal |
| 19:32.30 | smoooth | agreed |
| 19:32.48 | JeffM2501 | "make improvements" once you get into that you'd see where the liabilities of the codebase are |
| 19:33.07 | smoooth | right eventually itd be a complete rewite |
| 19:33.10 | smoooth | rewrite* |
| 19:33.26 | smoooth | but you have to transitition the players over with something they recognize |
| 19:33.28 | JeffM2501 | if you have no real advantage over bzflag at the start why would people chagne? |
| 19:33.32 | JeffM2501 | why would they move? |
| 19:33.34 | JeffM2501 | that's the kicker |
| 19:34.07 | smoooth | because you can make small improvements, and CLAIM or actually do, things that will help block SOME cheaters |
| 19:34.27 | smoooth | people will by into a more cheat free bz no matter how small |
| 19:34.42 | JeffM2501 | doubtful |
| 19:34.50 | JeffM2501 | they will stay were the players are ;) |
| 19:34.58 | JeffM2501 | you need to get em to move in one shot |
| 19:35.11 | JeffM2501 | and for that you need a big thing to draw em |
| 19:35.35 | smoooth | yes agreed. we need a few server owners to make as high authorities in your new gaming commission :) |
| 19:35.58 | smoooth | that way they will switch their servers to your game |
| 19:36.26 | smoooth | and also identify who the key players are, such that when everything else goes slient, the steady players will be on your game |
| 19:36.29 | JeffM2501 | servers would not be a problem many owners would run both |
| 19:36.51 | smoooth | but we dont want them to run both |
| 19:36.57 | smoooth | :) |
| 19:37.14 | smoooth | is there a copyright on bzflag the name? |
| 19:37.18 | JeffM2501 | why do we care what happens to bzflag? with it's small playerbase you'll get a new one :) |
| 19:37.19 | JeffM2501 | yes |
| 19:37.32 | JeffM2501 | but what you are thinking is "trademark" and no it is not trademarked |
| 19:37.44 | smoooth | we want the users to THINK that the new game IS bzflag |
| 19:37.51 | JeffM2501 | why? |
| 19:38.01 | smoooth | so they will "continue" playing |
| 19:38.02 | JeffM2501 | so you can get 500 players? |
| 19:38.10 | JeffM2501 | make a decent game and you'll get a lot more then that |
| 19:38.10 | smoooth | yeah better than starting with zero |
| 19:38.29 | smoooth | agreed, but -- resources |
| 19:38.30 | JeffM2501 | just let bzflag die, the players will go where they can |
| 19:38.42 | smoooth | it wont die unless you kill it |
| 19:38.46 | smoooth | thats how u kill it |
| 19:38.50 | JeffM2501 | everything dies |
| 19:39.21 | smoooth | basically what you want to do is write an entirely new game |
| 19:39.32 | smoooth | nothing is stopping you other than people and resources |
| 19:39.39 | smoooth | mostly resources |
| 19:39.46 | JeffM2501 | who said I haden't started ;) |
| 19:39.51 | smoooth | oh! :) |
| 19:40.17 | smoooth | cool |
| 19:40.28 | smoooth | you didnt say you had either ;) |
| 19:40.40 | JeffM2501 | sure I had, 7 months ago when I started |
| 19:40.43 | JeffM2501 | you just wern't here |
| 19:40.47 | smoooth | heheh |
| 19:40.53 | smoooth | hows it coming along? |
| 19:41.06 | smoooth | did u fork bz, or start from scratch? |
| 19:41.11 | JeffM2501 | it's all new code |
| 19:41.16 | smoooth | awesome |
| 19:41.39 | smoooth | potential new name "EZFlag" |
| 19:41.48 | JeffM2501 | it has most of the core libs, server and client etc.. |
| 19:41.52 | JeffM2501 | no.. flags are stupid |
| 19:41.56 | JeffM2501 | flags are for CTF |
| 19:42.01 | smoooth | agreed |
| 19:42.03 | JeffM2501 | powerups are what bzflag actualy has |
| 19:42.09 | JeffM2501 | bzpowerup is a stupid name |
| 19:42.27 | smoooth | special tank abilities are dumb in general |
| 19:42.34 | JeffM2501 | no, not always |
| 19:42.45 | smoooth | other than jumping :) |
| 19:42.52 | JeffM2501 | it makes sense to allow players to customize the abilities |
| 19:42.59 | JeffM2501 | or pick up different weapons |
| 19:43.07 | smoooth | ya |
| 19:43.25 | JeffM2501 | bzflag is so defocused that it's a different game to each person that plays it |
| 19:44.33 | smoooth | yea |
| 19:44.48 | JeffM2501 | I would like a game that defaults to a more "action style" with health and damage, that can be configured to play in the slower "classic strategy" way of bzflag for the few that want it |
| 19:45.26 | smoooth | well it will be interesting and i will definitely like to try/play your new game |
| 19:45.44 | smoooth | when it becomes to an alpha release :) |
| 19:46.13 | JeffM2501 | unlikely |
| 19:46.29 | smoooth | dont think you will ever finish? |
| 19:46.53 | JeffM2501 | there isn't much motivation for me to work on it lately |
| 19:47.16 | JeffM2501 | programing all day at work then programing at home gets booring fast |
| 19:47.35 | smoooth | i can imagine |
| 19:48.10 | JeffM2501 | I'll probably go back to it at some point, and if more people wanted to work on it that would not hurt ether |
| 19:48.13 | smoooth | wonder if we can farm it out to some cheap programmers in india |
| 19:48.21 | JeffM2501 | oh you could |
| 19:48.27 | JeffM2501 | you'd get a crap product back |
| 19:48.31 | JeffM2501 | but you could |
| 19:49.01 | smoooth | imagine that no good programmers want to work for free :) |
| 19:49.15 | JeffM2501 | many good programers will work for free |
| 19:49.23 | smoooth | where are they? |
| 19:49.29 | JeffM2501 | all over the internet |
| 19:49.35 | smoooth | lets recruit them |
| 19:49.36 | JeffM2501 | but they want to work on proejcts that matter |
| 19:49.41 | JeffM2501 | projects with goals |
| 19:49.52 | JeffM2501 | there are so many better games that they are already working on |
| 19:49.57 | smoooth | Your game has goals and its your idea! Want to sell it to me for zero dollarss? |
| 19:50.07 | JeffM2501 | nope |
| 19:50.16 | smoooth | see you want it, its important. |
| 19:50.22 | JeffM2501 | but it's licensed open source |
| 19:50.28 | JeffM2501 | so you can use it ;) |
| 19:51.18 | smoooth | see thats where recapturing the existing userbase of bzflag could help it get momentum |
| 19:51.30 | JeffM2501 | userbase no, developerbase yes |
| 19:52.00 | smoooth | but it creates the essence of importance if users are already there with a need |
| 19:52.14 | smoooth | with your game there is no userbase, so why work on it? |
| 19:52.17 | JeffM2501 | chicken and egg, users won't be around if there isn't anything to play |
| 19:52.46 | smoooth | there is no pressure and no people like me saying "where the heck is bz 3.0"! i want it now! |
| 19:52.47 | JeffM2501 | all software proejcts have to start with no users and have enouhg momentem/developers to run to a point where it's useable |
| 19:52.56 | JeffM2501 | oh people say that all the time |
| 19:53.02 | smoooth | and it stirs the pots |
| 19:53.08 | JeffM2501 | that still dosn't make development get done |
| 19:53.09 | JeffM2501 | not really |
| 19:53.14 | JeffM2501 | 5 years..... |
| 19:53.16 | smoooth | i see your point |
| 19:53.23 | JeffM2501 | the work just isn't being done |
| 19:53.41 | smoooth | i still think the critical element is getting the game in the hands of a single owner that WANTS to take the game and users somewhere |
| 19:53.45 | JeffM2501 | that is why the project is dead |
| 19:54.16 | JeffM2501 | not really, since any developer can do whatever they want, someone could have "taken over" bzflag by now |
| 19:54.16 | smoooth | tim is killing it, if hes sitting there with his hands off and not involved |
| 19:54.25 | JeffM2501 | no he's just not helping it |
| 19:54.45 | JeffM2501 | it just has no developer interest other then a few very loyal fans |
| 19:54.49 | smoooth | he should give it to someone else so they can take ownership |
| 19:54.51 | JeffM2501 | and that just ain't enough |
| 19:54.53 | JeffM2501 | why? |
| 19:55.06 | JeffM2501 | as we've said a new "owner" dosn't need tim |
| 19:55.23 | JeffM2501 | and the name is silly/pointless |
| 19:55.32 | JeffM2501 | heck you could call a new game BZFlag Next if you wanted to |
| 19:55.35 | JeffM2501 | or BZFlag2 |
| 19:55.40 | JeffM2501 | since its' all licnesed |
| 19:56.15 | smoooth | but you cant have a true owner/leader unless there is one -- and will never be as long as the game is in tims name. No one can truely be the boss as long as tim has the copyright |
| 19:56.26 | JeffM2501 | not true |
| 19:56.31 | JeffM2501 | you could make your own fork |
| 19:56.36 | smoooth | either tim has to run it or pass it to someone else to run. |
| 19:56.38 | JeffM2501 | give it direction |
| 19:56.45 | JeffM2501 | and do whatever you wanted |
| 19:56.46 | smoooth | but they cant take the name apparently |
| 19:56.53 | JeffM2501 | define"take" |
| 19:57.09 | JeffM2501 | the name is part of the copyrighted work |
| 19:57.17 | JeffM2501 | but that work is licnesed under the LGPL |
| 19:57.24 | smoooth | hi im smoooth, i downloaded bzflag code, made change, and have now release it as BZFlag copyright smoooth |
| 19:57.26 | JeffM2501 | you CAN call your project bzflag |
| 19:57.38 | JeffM2501 | you would hold copyrights to your changes |
| 19:57.47 | JeffM2501 | and you would be using the rest under licnese from tim |
| 19:57.52 | smoooth | but I can still call it bzflag 3.0? |
| 19:58.00 | JeffM2501 | as long as you did not relicense the code it'd be fine |
| 19:58.01 | JeffM2501 | sure |
| 19:58.09 | JeffM2501 | as long as you comply with the licnese |
| 19:58.17 | JeffM2501 | as in, provide source |
| 19:58.25 | smoooth | hmm interesting |
| 19:58.42 | JeffM2501 | now if Ubisoft said, "hey we want to buy your BZFlag and make a closed soruce game" you could not sell the name |
| 19:58.47 | JeffM2501 | but you can USE the name |
| 19:58.50 | smoooth | natrually |
| 19:58.52 | JeffM2501 | just like you can use the code |
| 19:59.14 | smoooth | only other issue would be the website, who owns bzflag.org |
| 19:59.31 | JeffM2501 | the thing would be that it would be your fork, developers would know it was YOUR fork, you'd be in charge |
| 19:59.35 | JeffM2501 | tim does |
| 19:59.52 | smoooth | k, he needs to relinquish that to someone |
| 19:59.58 | JeffM2501 | the bzflag website and it's data is NOT open source or licensed |
| 19:59.59 | JeffM2501 | why? |
| 20:00.01 | smoooth | otherwise he does own the name |
| 20:00.10 | JeffM2501 | no he owns the website |
| 20:00.19 | JeffM2501 | you can make bzflag.ws if you wanted |
| 20:00.43 | smoooth | right but the game was released under bzflag.org.. users will always go to it as the official "bzflag" |
| 20:00.50 | JeffM2501 | some would |
| 20:00.51 | smoooth | the only way you could beat that would be with bzflag.com |
| 20:00.52 | JeffM2501 | some woudln't |
| 20:00.57 | JeffM2501 | he owns that too |
| 20:01.00 | smoooth | .. |
| 20:01.16 | JeffM2501 | but yes for marketing reasons a name change would be benifital |
| 20:01.33 | smoooth | see but that goes back, he essentially owns the name bzfalg |
| 20:01.36 | JeffM2501 | call it bzflag2, and post on the bzflag.org fourms then everone moves :) |
| 20:01.42 | JeffM2501 | yes he does |
| 20:01.53 | JeffM2501 | he has copyright on the work |
| 20:01.54 | smoooth | that why i cant fork it |
| 20:01.56 | JeffM2501 | but he lets you use it |
| 20:02.15 | JeffM2501 | you put too much emphasis on the current community and how they work, they will adpat |
| 20:02.21 | smoooth | because my fork will never be legitimate in the eyes of community unless it has credibility |
| 20:02.23 | JeffM2501 | community does not make software, software makes community. |
| 20:02.32 | JeffM2501 | if it's fun they will play it |
| 20:02.37 | JeffM2501 | that's all that matters |
| 20:02.50 | JeffM2501 | that's how they got into bzflag in the first place |
| 20:03.05 | smoooth | thats the reason no one can take bzflag anywhere. The owner must take it, no one else can. |
| 20:03.11 | JeffM2501 | you make it sound like a player picks one game for life and never changes |
| 20:03.21 | JeffM2501 | and that's the reason why I say LET IT DIE |
| 20:03.28 | JeffM2501 | it's users will go elsewhere |
| 20:03.46 | smoooth | yeah good point, except for that as archaic as bzflag is, it has an appeal |
| 20:03.50 | smoooth | and existing users |
| 20:03.55 | smoooth | and will not die easily |
| 20:04.05 | JeffM2501 | sure it will, it will take NO effort for it to die |
| 20:04.11 | JeffM2501 | that's what's killing it, no effort |
| 20:04.17 | JeffM2501 | it will just die slow |
| 20:04.18 | smoooth | yeah |
| 20:04.54 | JeffM2501 | I guarantee you that if tim came here now and gave me copyright, The changes I would make to the project would kill it |
| 20:04.54 | smoooth | like i said, this all goes back on tim unfortunately, he has to lead or give to some1 to lead |
| 20:05.10 | JeffM2501 | the devs would stop and somoene would fork |
| 20:05.10 | smoooth | why jeff? |
| 20:05.26 | JeffM2501 | because it's hard to change an existing community that is based on no real rules |
| 20:05.42 | smoooth | yeah i agree |
| 20:05.53 | smoooth | hard to take chaos into organization |
| 20:05.54 | JeffM2501 | so it is simpler to not change the proejct, but to make the developers change to a NEW project |
| 20:05.59 | JeffM2501 | it'll be a cleaner break |
| 20:06.17 | JeffM2501 | your players won't be mad that you "broke the game forever" |
| 20:06.28 | smoooth | yea |
| 20:06.31 | JeffM2501 | because there will be no expectations from the past |
| 20:06.31 | smoooth | i can see that |
| 20:06.42 | JeffM2501 | but what they will see is the fun that got them into bzflag in the first place |
| 20:06.50 | JeffM2501 | and "hey I can just try this new game right?" |
| 20:06.55 | JeffM2501 | then you got em hooked |
| 20:07.11 | JeffM2501 | and bzflag just sits as a monument to what it was, and that's fine |
| 20:07.35 | smoooth | still think much could be learned from surveying the existing player base from bzflag and finding out what issues are important to them, that way when you did change the code you would know who would be mad and that would be ok |
| 20:07.46 | JeffM2501 | look at what ID did for quake 2, they didn't just change quake 1, they made a new game |
| 20:07.50 | smoooth | cant always please every1 |
| 20:08.14 | JeffM2501 | oh sure, using player input to help build a requirements document is a good idea |
| 20:08.22 | JeffM2501 | but it has to be taken with some underatanding |
| 20:08.33 | JeffM2501 | usualty players tell you what solution tey want, not what the core problem is |
| 20:08.50 | JeffM2501 | so you have to find out what the problem is and evaluate all possible solutions |
| 20:11.36 | smoooth | yeah its tough challenge but definitely a solution can be found |
| 20:11.45 | smoooth | keep at it :) |
| 20:11.53 | smoooth | ive got to run but its been nice chatting |
| 20:12.02 | JeffM2501 | have fun |
| 20:12.33 | smoooth | thanks cu |
| 20:12.35 | smoooth | u2 |
| 20:30.45 | *** part/#bzflag Upsetter1 (~er@89.246.219.131) |
| 20:46.37 | *** join/#bzflag sigonasr21 (~Joshua_Si@ip70-190-212-123.ph.ph.cox.net) |
| 20:49.27 | *** join/#bzflag R0b0t1 (~Enigma@unaffiliated/r0b0t1) |
| 23:03.23 | *** join/#bzflag sigonasr2 (~Joshua_Si@ip70-190-212-123.ph.ph.cox.net) |
| 23:22.11 | *** join/#bzflag McSpider (~McSpider@xplr-ts-v10-208-114-191-43.barrettxplore.com) |
| 23:23.09 | *** join/#bzflag xaver (~xaver@pD9ED6A04.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 23:24.13 | *** part/#bzflag BulletCatcher (~bc@bzflag/developer/BulletCatcher) |
| 23:25.24 | *** join/#bzflag temporalD (~ATD@bzflag/serverop/TemporalDistraction) |
| 23:32.05 | *** join/#bzflag Yassen (~Yassen@unaffiliated/yassen) |
| 23:38.01 | *** join/#bzflag BulletCatcher (~bc@bzflag/developer/BulletCatcher) |