| 00:00.04 | JefferyM | but if you are just wanting to start a project to design them, then it's a bit late |
| 00:00.09 | trepan | and i have no problem changing textures that are already done _now_, and that are agreed upon |
| 00:00.22 | JefferyM | the agreement may take some time |
| 00:00.25 | JefferyM | that's one issue |
| 00:00.40 | trepan | if it takes longer than the code, they don't go in |
| 00:00.42 | trepan | simple :) |
| 00:00.42 | JefferyM | not everyone likes the same thing |
| 00:00.45 | JefferyM | yep |
| 00:00.47 | Erroneous | swapping completed, well-designed textures in at this stage is no problem. designing a set is. |
| 00:00.56 | JefferyM | that's our big issue |
| 00:01.14 | JefferyM | your first statement made it sound like you wanted to get people to start working on them now |
| 00:01.25 | JefferyM | not that you simply have some new existing art to sugest as replacements |
| 00:02.07 | Constitution | there was plenty of motivation to get them done, but as I already said, people were waiting to get serious about it until we were close to a release... so how did we jump from "too early" to "too late" so quickly? |
| 00:02.27 | JefferyM | by sitting on our asses for 2 years |
| 00:02.27 | Constitution | it has been like six years... and now we don't have time for an art refresh? |
| 00:02.45 | JefferyM | I don't recall ever saying to wait for an art refersh |
| 00:02.47 | Erroneous | Constitution: we floated the idea of a release LAST YEAR...waiting on two critical bugs, essentially |
| 00:02.48 | JefferyM | that makes no sense |
| 00:02.56 | Erroneous | Constitution: those two bugs got fixed |
| 00:02.58 | JefferyM | I friggin replaced shots 3 years ago |
| 00:03.25 | JefferyM | Constitution, go read up on "feature creep" |
| 00:03.29 | JefferyM | that's what people fear |
| 00:03.38 | JefferyM | specialy when something is this far behind the inteneded release date |
| 00:05.13 | trepan | Constitution: if they don't make it in, no big deal; have the art ready for the bug release that's sure to follow :) |
| 00:05.47 | JefferyM | that's the advantage of having more numbers :) |
| 00:06.00 | JefferyM | 3.0 won't be stable till at least 3.0.10 |
| 00:06.06 | Erroneous | we used to do feature releases every 6 months or so. still could. 3.2.0 could be a november thing. |
| 00:07.33 | CIA-10 | BZFlag: 03dtremenak * r21156 10/trunk/bzflag/MSVC/build/luaclientGL.vcproj: fix release |
| 00:07.48 | Erroneous | blast007: release builds clean for me from 21156. wanna give it a shot? |
| 00:14.25 | trepan | Constitution: fwiw, you can change all the default obstacle materials now (box, pyrs, teles, bases, and walls) |
| 00:14.42 | trepan | you could setup a server or two with example texture sets for folks to look at |
| 00:15.28 | trepan | you could have done that using meshes, tbh :) |
| 00:18.05 | Constitution | well, I will post on the forums and see if there's interest... I was kind of hoping to piggyback on the major release hype, but we'll see what the reaction is |
| 00:18.31 | trepan | your best bet is to put some servers up (for applicable textures) |
| 00:18.38 | Constitution | as I said... several sets of alternative textures are done... however, consensus might be difficult to obtain |
| 00:18.44 | Constitution | alright |
| 00:19.18 | JefferyM | a fourm call for art could take weeks |
| 00:19.18 | Constitution | and I suppose they will have to be uploaded to images.bzflag.org to work |
| 00:19.25 | JefferyM | yep |
| 00:19.37 | JefferyM | your an admin of that IIRC |
| 00:19.40 | JefferyM | you can approve them |
| 00:19.46 | JefferyM | if not blast should make you one |
| 00:19.51 | trepan | probably not that important for folks that would have say ... |
| 00:20.03 | Constitution | where's the login? |
| 00:20.21 | JefferyM | check the wiki, I deleted my link |
| 00:21.00 | JefferyM | trepan, you'd have to use shell to do it, 3.0 only accepts images.bzflag.org not just any .bz |
| 00:21.03 | JefferyM | IIRC |
| 00:21.14 | JefferyM | anyone with shell could throw it in the dir tho |
| 00:21.20 | trepan | if you can't edit a text file, you have no say :) |
| 00:21.26 | trepan | DownloadAccess.txt |
| 00:21.27 | JefferyM | that is true |
| 00:21.35 | JefferyM | I meant for everyone in general, sans edit |
| 00:21.39 | Constitution | found it... not admin though |
| 00:21.53 | JefferyM | blast007 or DTRemenak should be able to add you |
| 00:22.05 | JefferyM | you are a logical choice for it IMHO |
| 00:22.15 | JefferyM | you know a thing or two about law ;) |
| 00:22.22 | Constitution | heh |
| 00:22.42 | JefferyM | unless it looks like it's from mexico ;) |
| 00:24.26 | CIA-10 | BZFlag: 03trepan * r21157 10/trunk/bzflag/man/bzw.5.in: * added a list of the "special" material names |
| 00:29.02 | blast007 | Erroneous: I can try when I get home. don't have a working build system here. |
| 00:29.19 | Erroneous | ok |
| 00:29.37 | blast007 | also, I was using fullbuild.sln |
| 00:29.43 | Alien` | can I change limits for flags/weapons etc without restarting server? |
| 00:29.47 | blast007 | that might be borked somewhat yet |
| 00:29.58 | blast007 | Alien`: nope |
| 00:30.48 | trepan | Alien`: (until 3.0 comes out) |
| 00:30.53 | Alien` | :) |
| 00:35.40 | Erroneous | Constitution: you are now able to authorize images on i.b.o. |
| 00:35.46 | Constitution | thanks |
| 00:35.58 | blast007 | ah, beat me to it :) |
| 00:36.16 | Erroneous | heh, shoulda let you do it...had to read the source to figure out where it got the auth from :) |
| 00:36.18 | Constitution | blast007: thoughts on artwork before 3.0? |
| 00:36.30 | blast007 | Constitution: now you'll get to see the uncompleted sections of the site ;) |
| 00:36.42 | Constitution | heh :) |
| 00:38.50 | blast007 | as for the art, it all depends on when it gets put in |
| 00:39.11 | blast007 | don't want a release getting held up waiting on art |
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| 00:53.50 | brlcad | making the art is relatively cake compared to everything else |
| 00:53.57 | brlcad | getting consensus that it looks good, making sure it works well across a myriad of resolutions, different bit depths, possibly caring about dominant color blindnesses, verifying they can be legally distributed if derived, making sure all the package management systems reference the right files, update any docs that reference existing artwork/files, etc.. that stuff all takes a little time |
| 00:55.34 | trepan | always with the pie and the cake :) |
| 00:57.29 | brlcad | mm. pie |
| 01:05.19 | delusional | it still builds on snow leopard... sound is still crackly... F1 gives a tall, narrow window. |
| 01:06.36 | delusional | flags drop for no reason |
| 01:07.04 | trepan | running on a local server? |
| 01:07.18 | delusional | yes |
| 01:07.25 | delusional | i'll try thers |
| 01:07.26 | trepan | could you crank up the debug levels for both the client and server? |
| 01:07.53 | delusional | ok |
| 01:08.29 | trepan | -set _forbigDebug 0 on the server |
| 01:08.45 | trepan | and /localset debugNetMsg 4 on the client might help too |
| 01:09.09 | trepan | see if you're at least getting a MsgDropFlag |
| 01:09.55 | trepan | * _forbidDebug |
| 01:13.13 | delusional | cant get the flag to drop now. maybe if i added a few bots for lag. |
| 01:22.59 | CIA-10 | BZFlag: 03trepan * r21158 10/trunk/bzflag/src/lua/ (LuaBZDB.cxx LuaControl.cxx): |
| 01:23.00 | CIA-10 | BZFlag: * protect the config.cfg from errant \n's & \r's |
| 01:23.00 | CIA-10 | BZFlag: that might have come from the lua scripts |
| 01:42.37 | delusional | this seems unusual Image not found or unloadable: mountain6 Image not found or unloadable: explode3 |
| 01:42.57 | trepan | you have debugging enabled |
| 01:43.01 | delusional | it will occasionally drop a flag, but i'm not seeing msgDropFlag anywhere |
| 01:43.17 | delusional | nwhere's it supposed to be? |
| 01:43.28 | delusional | client debug tab? bzfs? |
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| 01:46.03 | trepan | are you seeing messages like the 'recv: ...' ones shown here? http://trepan.bzflag.bz/noshow/debugNetMsg.jpg |
| 01:47.33 | delusional | i am not |
| 01:48.21 | trepan | server-side _forbidDebug=0 and client-side debugNetMsg=4 ? |
| 01:48.46 | delusional | yes |
| 01:48.56 | trepan | then something's le busted |
| 02:04.16 | Constitution | anything I missed? http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=16239 |
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| 02:18.29 | mrapple | Constitution: Last i heard 3.0 was never close to a release, since when is it "may be close"? |
| 02:19.09 | Constitution | mrapple: since you haven't been paying attention in this channel |
| 02:19.32 | Constitution | :) |
| 02:19.38 | mrapple | cool, so have devs been getting busy or are there going to be more bugs? :P |
| 02:19.50 | trepan | both? |
| 02:19.56 | mrapple | cool |
| 02:20.17 | mrapple | jeff said 3.0 was most likely not going to happen, so i we'll see i guess |
| 02:25.47 | Constitution | jeff said 3.0 will not happen? |
| 02:26.04 | delusional | he said a lot of things |
| 02:26.12 | mrapple | he said most likely not, and if it does, it will kill bz because of the protocal changes |
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| 02:40.54 | JeffM | I say lots of things |
| 02:41.13 | JeffM | Thermographic Underpands |
| 02:41.17 | JeffM | see.. there's another thing |
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| 03:16.09 | blast007 | DTRemenak: fullbuild set to 'release distribution' worked perfectly :) |
| 03:16.21 | Erroneous | cool |
| 03:16.23 | blast007 | well, I should say, it build - haven't tried running it yet |
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| 05:53.09 | CIA-10 | BZFlag: 03bullet_catcher * r21159 10/trunk/bzflag/src/clientbase/Makefile.am: Include ClientFlag.h in distributions. |
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| 06:35.36 | CIA-10 | BZFlag: 03bullet_catcher * r21160 10/trunk/bzflag/DEVINFO: Update the list of subdirectories and their descriptions. |
| 06:40.45 | CIA-10 | BZFlag: 03bullet_catcher * r21161 10/trunk/bzflag/DEVINFO: Synchronize the Licensing section with the v2_0branch DEVINFO file. |
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| 06:53.42 | CIA-10 | BZFlag: 03bullet_catcher * r21162 10/trunk/bzflag/DEVINFO: Synchronize the release process with the v2_0branch DEVINFO file. |
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| 13:45.43 | brlcad | ~bzfls |
| 13:45.43 | ibot | rumour has it, bzfls is see "bzflist""bzflist17" to query it here |
| 13:45.51 | brlcad | ~bzflist |
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| 14:25.33 | Manu | hugs brlcad |
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| 15:18.39 | brlcad | hugs Manu |
| 15:23.03 | Manu | :) |
| 15:38.58 | CIA-10 | BZFlag: 03bullet_catcher * r21163 10/trunk/bzflag/src/other/ftgl/ (8 files in 5 dirs): Synchronize FTGL with upstream revision 1227. |
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| 15:50.33 | CIA-10 | BZFlag: 03bullet_catcher * r21164 10/trunk/bzflag/src/other/ (ares/ curl/lib/ curl/src/): Update the lists of generated curl and ares files that Subversion should ignore the presence of. |
| 16:24.03 | CIA-10 | FTGL: 03brlcad * r1228 10/trunk/src/FTVectoriser.cpp: pull in change from bzflag downstream, r21141 by trepan, quieted some strict-aliasing warnings with a little dirty pool (in-place new's) |
| 16:24.58 | CIA-10 | FTGL: 03brlcad * r1229 10/trunk/src/FTUnicode.h: pull in change from bzflag downstream, r20589 by brlcad, make sure our chars are all unsigned so we don't end up coercing a template instantiation to char where we start spitting out negative values. |
| 16:26.50 | CIA-10 | FTGL: 03brlcad * r1230 10/trunk/src/FTGlyphContainer.cpp: pull in change from bzflag downstream, r20591 by brlcad, FTVector's [] will let you run beyond the vector (crash), so manually make sure our glyph index is within bounds. |
| 16:29.21 | CIA-10 | FTGL: 03brlcad * r1231 10/trunk/src/FTFont/FTFont.cpp: |
| 16:29.21 | CIA-10 | FTGL: pull in change from bzflag downstream, partial r20590 by brlcad, try harder to |
| 16:29.21 | CIA-10 | FTGL: make sure we don't get a <char> template instantiation. getting a negative |
| 16:29.21 | CIA-10 | FTGL: character code on high ascii values that causes a crash in |
| 16:29.21 | CIA-10 | FTGL: FTGlyphContainer::Advance(). |
| 16:38.12 | BulletCatcher | Want me to undo the damage from r21163, brlcad, or are you on it? |
| 16:38.18 | brlcad | on it |
| 16:39.09 | CIA-10 | FTGL: 03brlcad * r1232 10/trunk/Makefile.am: must itemize m4 headers individually or distcheck fails |
| 16:42.34 | brlcad | BulletCatcher: do you recall what the problem was with installing ftgl.pc ? |
| 16:42.59 | BulletCatcher | You mean with "make install"? |
| 16:43.02 | brlcad | BulletCatcher: and I wouldn't call it damage .. I thought the two were synced, so it was good to find those fixes |
| 16:43.32 | brlcad | yeah, with make install |
| 16:43.55 | brlcad | if ftgl is building, the src/other builds are just proxy installs, but still usually complete |
| 16:44.29 | brlcad | if ftgl compilation is disabled, it shouldn't traverse but maybe was .. maybe that was the problem? |
| 16:45.33 | BulletCatcher | tries to refresh his memory aboout this |
| 16:47.14 | BulletCatcher | I think the only point is that we don't need ftgl.pc in the installed BZFlag tree. |
| 16:47.46 | BulletCatcher | You probably do want it upstream. |
| 16:47.57 | CIA-10 | BZFlag: 03brlcad * r21165 10/trunk/bzflag/src/other/ftgl/ (5 files in 3 dirs): update to ftgl upstream r1232, with bzflag changes merged |
| 16:48.56 | brlcad | less of a maintenance burden to just let it be a default upstream install.. (same goes for all of the src/other deps) |
| 16:49.22 | brlcad | ideally so we can sync updates without conflicts, merging, or edits |
| 16:53.30 | BulletCatcher | We already have the BZFlag-specific change in src/other/ftgl/configure.ac . A couple more isn't too much of a burden. |
| 16:53.32 | BulletCatcher | FTGL upstream and BZFlag have slightly different requirements. |
| 16:54.21 | BulletCatcher | There are a few other things that should be changed to noinst in the Makefile.am files, too. |
| 16:54.26 | CIA-10 | BZFlag: 03trepan * r21166 10/trunk/bzflag/DEVINFO: |
| 16:54.26 | CIA-10 | BZFlag: * tweaked the directory information |
| 16:54.26 | CIA-10 | BZFlag: (ex: external library directories get their own section) |
| 16:54.26 | BulletCatcher | (for BZFlag) |
| 16:55.52 | CIA-10 | BZFlag: 03trepan * r21167 10/trunk/bzflag/src/clientbase/playing.cxx: * style tweak |
| 16:56.39 | BulletCatcher | I have been thinking of committing patch files to svn to help us manage the important changes BZFlag makes for everything in src/other. |
| 16:56.55 | brlcad | not a big deal to me, but this isn't really a matter of requirements -- more one of expectations. the entire methodology behind bundling dependencies isn't (or at least originally wasn't) just to install what bzflag needs, it's a download convenience and unified build system integration for systems that lack a package management system |
| 16:57.29 | brlcad | mac and windows in particular, or custom linux compiles on packageless distros |
| 16:57.37 | BulletCatcher | Agreed. |
| 16:59.05 | BulletCatcher | A requirement for upstream packages is that they install for general use on a system. When we bundle them it is only necessary to install what is directly needed to support BZFlag. |
| 16:59.35 | brlcad | so you don't actually agreee then :) |
| 16:59.41 | trepan | notes the src/other/lua is an exception to the convenience rule |
| 17:00.03 | BulletCatcher | Agree in part. :-) |
| 17:00.04 | brlcad | "the entire methodology behind bundling dependencies isn't just to install what bzflag needs" directly contradicts that |
| 17:01.07 | BulletCatcher | Okay. Do you think we should install entire documentation trees for things like ares and curl when we just need their libraries? |
| 17:01.30 | brlcad | yeah, lua is an exception .. I've seen similar exceptions when the bundled dep is exceedingly large (at least relative to the native code base) too |
| 17:02.07 | trepan | in this case, the library is customized for the app (as is often done with lua) |
| 17:03.49 | brlcad | the main point is that every change we make is one we have to manage and one that will impact the efficiency of syncing with upstream, no matter how minor the change, so the goal should be towards zero change following the download convenience mindset |
| 17:04.26 | brlcad | that's the smallest burden on our side of the fence that facilitiates code agility |
| 17:04.34 | brlcad | god, I've been talking to managers too much this week |
| 17:05.55 | BulletCatcher | I think having less bloat in what we install is a worthwhile goal. I understand that the cost of that is managing changes to the bundled software. |
| 17:06.33 | brlcad | anyways, therein is the critical difference in methodology then -- whether to treat them as minimal bzflag-necessity installs (breaking the expectation of full installs) or whether to treat them as default upstream installs (breaking the expectation of a bzflag-minimal install) |
| 17:07.13 | brlcad | I'm obviously for the latter as it scales better in the long run and is the least development cost and a minimal install cost |
| 17:07.56 | brlcad | that was the original intent of them in the first place too, save users from having to "go get and install blah" |
| 17:08.30 | BulletCatcher | What you call "minimal install cost", I call shifting costs from developers to users. But I'll defer to you if that's the way you want it. |
| 17:09.06 | BulletCatcher | I agree that the cost to users of a few megabytes of disk space is negligible in this day and age. |
| 17:09.34 | JefferyM | most users don't build |
| 17:09.51 | BulletCatcher | I am referring to the binary tree. |
| 17:09.57 | JefferyM | I know |
| 17:10.09 | JefferyM | so it's even a smaller subset of our full userbase |
| 17:10.09 | trepan | most windows and mac users probably don't build -- i wonder about linux |
| 17:10.40 | BulletCatcher | I suspect that "most" Linux users just use packages from their distro. |
| 17:10.45 | JefferyM | probably |
| 17:11.15 | JefferyM | windows dev/hackers apriciate the fact that bz can build "out of the box" |
| 17:11.24 | JefferyM | that was one of my goals |
| 17:11.41 | JefferyM | to make it build with out needing any third party (non ms ) libs |
| 17:12.18 | BulletCatcher | That is a fine goal. Windows players dominate the BZFlag community, and I have no problem in making it as easy as possible for them. |
| 17:12.37 | JefferyM | I personaly have been put off working on other projects because it was too hard to get the dependencies on windows |
| 17:12.40 | BulletCatcher | It saves us from them coming here to ask for help. :-) |
| 17:13.11 | JefferyM | if bz ends up needing other libs we don't ship then it would be best to make a "lib pack" available for windows people |
| 17:13.16 | JefferyM | that's what ogre and some others do |
| 17:13.19 | JefferyM | and it works out well |
| 17:14.02 | trepan | JefferyM: i've been put off of a few projects for the same reason, lib dep hell |
| 17:14.24 | JefferyM | it's not that hard to make a lib pack for windows, with the premade libs |
| 17:14.37 | JefferyM | then it's just making sure they are in the path, and that can be done with environment vars |
| 17:15.17 | BulletCatcher | I like our current design of src/other because it makes it easy to install on Solaris. |
| 17:15.30 | JefferyM | I like it as well |
| 17:15.34 | JefferyM | space is cheap :) |
| 17:15.39 | trepan | notes that src/other could be moved to extlibs/ or some such (except for lua/) |
| 17:15.59 | trepan | to avoid ws.sh, and to make searching through game code faster |
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| 17:16.12 | trepan | and because it just makes sense to me :) |
| 17:16.40 | trepan | but that can wait... |
| 17:16.49 | BulletCatcher | I can fix ws.sh to skip src/other if that will help. |
| 17:18.24 | trepan | na, i wouldn't bother right now (even if it'd take less time than to post this comment) |
| 17:18.51 | BulletCatcher | :-) I assume you are capable of changing it if you want to, anyway. |
| 17:19.04 | trepan | don't let me touch ws.sh :) |
| 17:19.23 | BulletCatcher | Capable, but unwilling. |
| 17:19.41 | trepan | reluctant, i think the current ws formatting is the suck |
| 17:20.16 | trepan | so i'd end up changing it all, let's leave Pandora alone for now |
| 17:21.16 | BulletCatcher | In conclusion (hopefully), moving forward we will let upstream packages in src/other install whatever they want rather than modify them to install the bare essentials for BZFlag. I'll find a place for this decision in the DEVINFO file. |
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| 17:23.40 | brlcad | if previous release downloads are any correllation, then approximately 9% of downloaders compile from source tarball (54% windows, 35% mac), untracked how that measures up to linux distro packagers |
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| 17:24.52 | BulletCatcher | If we are really interested in more information about that we could make sure the future stats system collects the needed data. |
| 17:25.27 | BulletCatcher | Speaking of the stats system, should it be on the critical path for 3.0? |
| 17:25.57 | brlcad | trepan: I thought ws.sh specifically exempted src/other |
| 17:26.21 | trepan | iirc, it was hit the last time someone ran it |
| 17:26.35 | brlcad | hrm |
| 17:26.38 | BulletCatcher | It has no such exemption currently. |
| 17:26.42 | trepan | nope, grep other ws.sh gives zilch |
| 17:26.51 | brlcad | huh |
| 17:27.00 | brlcad | any searching I do has a standard list of exemptions |
| 17:27.07 | brlcad | I use: -not -regex '.*src/other.*' -not -regex '.*~' -not -regex '.*\.log' -not -regex '.*Makefile.*' -not -regex '.*cache.*' -not -regex '.*\.svn.*' |
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| 17:27.54 | trepan | are you talking about ws.sh, or my comment about searching code? |
| 17:28.01 | brlcad | comment about searching |
| 17:28.33 | trepan | ah, i wrote a tool that scans for known source files types |
| 17:28.38 | trepan | i could add exemptions |
| 17:29.01 | trepan | but moving src/other directories to somewhere sensible seems the better approach to me |
| 17:29.07 | brlcad | hm, ws.sh is kinda lame |
| 17:29.19 | trepan | uhm, ya ;) |
| 17:29.47 | brlcad | even if you move it, there are still plenty of things that need to be exempted, particularly in the svn dirs |
| 17:30.07 | trepan | not when scanning by extension |
| 17:30.56 | trepan | (svn appends ".svn-base" to its local copies of files) |
| 17:31.17 | brlcad | iirc, earlier versions of svn did not |
| 17:31.37 | trepan | be that as it may, it does now |
| 17:36.38 | CIA-10 | BZFlag: 03bullet_catcher * r21168 10/trunk/bzflag/DEVINFO: Add note about modifications to third party packages in src/other. |
| 17:58.46 | CIA-10 | BZFlag: 03bullet_catcher * r21169 10/trunk/bzflag/src/other/ftgl/ (docs/Makefile.am src/FTGlyphContainer.cpp src/Makefile.am): Synchronize further with upstream FTGL r1232, removing non-essential BZFlag changes. |
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| 18:54.00 | CIA-10 | BZFlag: 03Honeytank 07http://my.bzflag.org * r7039 10/w/Showdown_League: |
| 18:55.15 | CIA-10 | BZFlag: 03Honeytank 07http://my.bzflag.org * r7040 10/w/Showdown_League: |
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| 23:51.20 | delusional | what is it? http://images.planet-mofo.com/A-Delusion/psych/bzfi0017.png |
| 23:51.41 | delusional | red foggy blob... appears on every map, in the same place. |
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