| 00:00.00 | JefferyM | so glad that font system is dead |
| 00:00.37 | blast007 | the new one (at least with outlines turned on) makes my system run at 48FPS ;) |
| 00:00.51 | JefferyM | but it LOOKS awesome ;) |
| 00:01.06 | blast007 | hehe |
| 00:01.12 | shining | eheh yeah me too :) the new one just worked out of the box. but maybe this was a good thing about the old one, it helped find driver bugs |
| 00:01.54 | shining | oh performance. I am afraid that area still needs lots of work |
| 00:02.24 | CIA-53 | BZFlag: 03macsforme * r20926 10/trunk/bzworkbench/ (include/model/SceneBuilder.h src/model/SceneBuilder.cpp): |
| 00:02.24 | CIA-53 | BZFlag: No need to specify the class name for a method declared inside the class definition. |
| 00:02.24 | CIA-53 | BZFlag: Removed stray semicolon after #include. |
| 00:02.24 | CIA-53 | BZFlag: A long int is %li, not %l, for printf. |
| 00:11.09 | shining | JefferyM: I believe the font problem had to do with OpenGLTexture::getBestFormat returning GL_INTENSITY or not |
| 00:11.32 | shining | my guess it that it returns intensity for the new font but not for the old one |
| 00:11.54 | shining | and intensity caused I8 format to be picked |
| 00:14.09 | JefferyM | PNGs are probably different formats |
| 00:17.06 | shining | I need to activate more brain cells to understand what the code does, but the comment says this : see if all pixels are r=g=b=a. if so return intensity format. |
| 00:17.17 | JefferyM | somtimes I do post proccessing on them in an image editor, so they probably got saved differently |
| 00:17.39 | JefferyM | that dosnt' sound like a valid assumption |
| 00:17.44 | shining | at least 'file' reports the same png format for all |
| 00:17.46 | JefferyM | but it's there driver |
| 00:18.07 | shining | thats bzflag code :) |
| 00:18.08 | JefferyM | it's a grayscale image, stored in RGB |
| 00:18.10 | JefferyM | ahh |
| 00:18.30 | JefferyM | oh well |
| 00:18.40 | shining | "OpenGLTexture::getBestFormat returning GL_INTENSITY or not" |
| 00:19.10 | blast007 | "// SGI IMPACT and 3Dfx systems don't support GL_INTENSITY." ;D |
| 00:19.13 | JefferyM | works on other drivers ;) |
| 00:19.48 | JefferyM | I did test the fonts after I made them :) |
| 00:20.12 | JefferyM | on a ... /me looks at the card here |
| 00:20.37 | JefferyM | 9500 GT appereantly |
| 00:20.37 | blast007 | they work on my Intel graphics ;) |
| 00:20.53 | JefferyM | that's where I did them the first time |
| 00:20.56 | blast007 | (though the console fonts look like crap at the small size) |
| 00:21.08 | blast007 | pretty much unreadable |
| 00:21.16 | JefferyM | the last redo was on an ATI 4850something |
| 00:21.26 | JefferyM | yeah the images don't hold much detail |
| 00:21.30 | JefferyM | and the aliasing on them sucks |
| 00:21.39 | JefferyM | probably shoulda not aliased anything under 8pt |
| 00:22.07 | shining | heh I already said the issue was fixed :) I am just trying to understand all aspects of the problem. as previous time, no problem in bzflag, only a mystery to solve |
| 00:22.32 | JefferyM | heh, the problem is the driver didn't implement it, what more is there? :) |
| 00:22.50 | JefferyM | an applicaiton can send in whatever format request it wants |
| 00:23.33 | JefferyM | the old font probably had some RGB variation due to sub pixel rendering |
| 00:23.38 | JefferyM | the new one should not |
| 00:23.41 | JefferyM | that'd change that test |
| 00:24.08 | JefferyM | I remember the cleartype rendered ones looked like crap |
| 00:24.11 | JefferyM | so I made some changes |
| 00:24.22 | JefferyM | and added more sizes |
| 00:26.00 | JefferyM | time to see if I can get my game server to give me a list of game instances |
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| 00:29.57 | shining | JefferyM: heh that could explain everything ! I do see some rgb variation, eg 132 134 132 or 49 48 49. thats a good enough explanation for me. |
| 00:31.18 | JefferyM | chalking it up to "code changes" should be enough ;) |
| 00:33.06 | shining | and data ! |
| 00:33.19 | JefferyM | ok "call changes" |
| 00:33.25 | JefferyM | since that's all that changed to the driver |
| 00:33.45 | shining | sure, the dev never looked at bzflag code |
| 00:33.50 | shining | and he fixed the problem, I didnt |
| 00:34.07 | shining | so you have a point :) |
| 00:34.09 | JefferyM | he shouldn't have to :) |
| 00:35.48 | shining | call me curious, but dont worry, I no longer have any reasons to bother you about bzflag code |
| 00:36.01 | JefferyM | no bother at all |
| 00:36.06 | JefferyM | rarely worries :) |
| 00:39.13 | JefferyM | I'm still amazed they don't have tests already |
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| 00:39.36 | JefferyM | I'd think I'd make those at the start of that project, then be able to run them on both the old driver and the new one |
| 00:39.43 | JefferyM | to make sure it's all working as it should |
| 00:43.12 | shining | but it is the start of the project ! and all these drivers live in the same codebase, mesa, which is the whole opensource opengl infrastructure |
| 00:43.47 | JefferyM | I'd think mesa would have had some tests when it was started |
| 00:43.57 | shining | plenty of demos and apps there already. I would be surprised if there wasnt one for that i8 format, I will have a look |
| 00:43.58 | JefferyM | but then I am not a driver guru :) |
| 00:44.07 | JefferyM | how does mesa check for regressions, for instance? |
| 00:45.25 | shining | heh I actually also think this could be better, I think regressions mostly come with user reports |
| 00:45.41 | JefferyM | that's horrible for a driver IMHO |
| 00:45.51 | JefferyM | the output of mesa ( and any driver ) is very well defined |
| 00:45.52 | shining | there are some automated testsuite but I dont know if all results are saved somewhere for each driver, I doubt it |
| 00:46.12 | JefferyM | still run those on the new drivers, and see if they throw errors :) |
| 00:46.25 | JefferyM | gets yelled at for not running regressions at work |
| 00:47.20 | shining | I started looking into those but I need to spend more time with these tools. the thing is, no driver actually passes all the tests |
| 00:47.32 | JefferyM | that I'll belive |
| 00:47.33 | shining | even the stable ones for intel,radeon,etc which are released |
| 00:47.39 | JefferyM | but they should still be run and compared |
| 00:47.46 | JefferyM | specialy to try and get code coverage |
| 00:48.00 | shining | true |
| 00:48.12 | JefferyM | you won't build a reputation for quality if you relly on your users(customers) for bug reports |
| 00:48.29 | JefferyM | and that's what an open source video driver needs, a rep for quality |
| 00:48.40 | JefferyM | otherwise people will just use the one from nvidia |
| 00:49.31 | shining | there are the 2 people out there who dont use/need 3d. but besides that, yeah |
| 00:49.53 | JefferyM | eventualy evething is going to use the 3d hardware |
| 00:50.09 | JefferyM | you can accelerate 2d with 3d hardware |
| 00:50.10 | shining | and aiming for quality might be more doable than for perf , especially compared to prop driver |
| 00:50.14 | JefferyM | just stay in orthographic :) |
| 00:50.41 | shining | yeah indeed everything sems to move in that direction |
| 00:50.51 | JefferyM | it's all 2d displays |
| 00:51.00 | JefferyM | so in the end it all goes out to 2d |
| 00:51.10 | JefferyM | regardless of the math used to compute the image |
| 00:51.31 | JefferyM | the finder in OSX does all it's compositing in openGL |
| 00:51.37 | JefferyM | even for the 2d interface |
| 00:51.50 | JefferyM | so the hardware can accelerate it |
| 00:52.02 | JefferyM | windows does something similar |
| 00:53.24 | shining | even linux is getting there, also with composite / compiz and that stuff, some distrib might even enable it by default, or provide an easy way to do that |
| 00:53.33 | JefferyM | yeah |
| 00:53.57 | JefferyM | it'll just take some people to realise that using GL does not have to mean "fancy effects" :) |
| 00:54.50 | shining | indeed, this might fix window tearing too and similar |
| 00:55.12 | JefferyM | the jitter when you drag a window? |
| 00:55.17 | shining | yes |
| 00:55.22 | JefferyM | that's just vsync |
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| 00:56.52 | JefferyM | has to see a lady about some food |
| 00:59.33 | shining | there are logs so I can just answer this |
| 00:59.46 | shining | seems you're right, its actually covered here : http://www.x.org/wiki/Development/Documentation/Performance#PerceptualPerformance |
| 01:00.10 | shining | vsync might be the big part. and composite might help in addition |
| 01:02.33 | shining | and finally maybe I should have made clearer the status of nouveau 3d driver. see http://nouveau.freedesktop.org/wiki/GalliumHowto : Warning: the Nouveau 3D drivers are not yet suitable for ordinary users. Bug reports on the 3D drivers are not accepted. :) |
| 01:04.13 | shining | but imo its already totally worth to run some testsuites regularly to track for regressions, I wanted to do this for a while. I dont think it can replace real game test, but it would be good anyway |
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| 03:50.26 | CIA-53 | BZFlag: 03blast007 * r20927 10/trunk/bzworkbench/MSVC/BZWorkbench.vcproj: Add libcurl |
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| 04:22.53 | jcp | I'd like to know what idiot changed the list server to send the user's username and, more importantly, password, back as part of the NOTOK message |
| 04:23.15 | jcp | In plain text |
| 04:24.48 | Bambino | hm - works normally for me if I get wrong password |
| 04:25.07 | Bambino | NOTOK: invaild callsign or password |
| 04:25.28 | jcp | I'm getting this back though: NOTOK: invalid callsign or password (BZAddict_Helper:*****) |
| 04:25.33 | jcp | where ***** is the plaintext password |
| 04:26.30 | jeffm | 1) please don't call people names |
| 04:26.33 | *** join/#bzflag cruel_dog (~kvirc@unaffiliated/crueldog/x-5189761) |
| 04:26.38 | jeffm | and 2) you sure the php dopes that? |
| 04:27.38 | jcp | JeffM: Sorry, but I was kinda a little ticked, and it seemed rather stupid to do that. But my moment of anger is over, so my apologies. And yes, I've checked through my code, and it's not inserting that anywhere |
| 04:28.10 | jeffm | no I mean OUR php |
| 04:28.56 | jeffm | from the raw form I don't see a password |
| 04:29.01 | jcp | I'll go add print statements to have my code print the precise URL it's going against and run that |
| 04:29.18 | jeffm | what is the action you are doing? |
| 04:29.19 | jeffm | list? |
| 04:30.12 | jcp | JeffM: no, GETTOKEN |
| 04:30.33 | jeffm | k |
| 04:30.34 | jcp | and I just ran it by hand in Chrome, and this is the text I've got on my screen |
| 04:30.36 | jcp | NOTOK: invalid callsign or password (BZAddict_Helper:sdfksldjfskldfj)er:! |
| 04:30.44 | jcp | minus the "er:!", that's Chrome failing |
| 04:30.45 | jeffm | why are you getting a token directly from the list? |
| 04:30.49 | jcp | And that's a bogus password |
| 04:30.56 | jcp | To authenticate? |
| 04:31.14 | jeffm | usualy clients do it with the list action |
| 04:31.21 | jcp | Get a token? |
| 04:31.24 | jcp | What... |
| 04:31.40 | jeffm | not sure why it sends back the password, but it looks like it's just the one you pass in, not the real one |
| 04:31.49 | jeffm | yeah you can get a token with our list |
| 04:31.52 | jeffm | your list |
| 04:32.06 | jcp | That would be correct. The problem is that even a wrong password can reveal too much about the correct password |
| 04:32.21 | jeffm | huh? |
| 04:32.27 | jcp | And GETTOKEN seems more straightforward to use if all that's needed is a token, not a list |
| 04:32.35 | jcp | Well |
| 04:32.39 | jeffm | how is it going to reveal any more then the password was bad? |
| 04:32.50 | jcp | Because it reveals the wrong password itself |
| 04:33.01 | jcp | And in most cases, it's only a character or two away from the right password |
| 04:33.02 | jeffm | yeah the one YOU sent |
| 04:33.16 | jeffm | that was already known |
| 04:33.22 | jeffm | it's no additional info |
| 04:33.31 | jeffm | you are assuming an ssl connection it seems |
| 04:33.36 | jcp | Not in all cases. With a normal BZFlag client, sure, it's known. But with my IRC bot (which is what I'm doing here)... |
| 04:33.38 | jeffm | where they can't see the input |
| 04:33.39 | jcp | I'm not |
| 04:33.45 | jeffm | ok |
| 04:33.47 | jcp | I'm aware that a packet sniffer would have no problem seeing passwods |
| 04:33.49 | jcp | *passwords |
| 04:33.50 | jeffm | then don't use our system ;) |
| 04:33.59 | jeffm | our client is all it was designed for |
| 04:34.05 | jeffm | but still we can remove it |
| 04:34.11 | jeffm | it's not consistent with list |
| 04:34.15 | jcp | But in my IRC bot, it posts exception stack traces to pastebin posts. That's where it gets dangerous |
| 04:34.17 | jcp | ok |
| 04:34.22 | jcp | Yeah, that'd be cool if that works |
| 04:34.28 | jeffm | but I don't see HOW that can be anything that is cause for how upset you seemed to be |
| 04:34.37 | jcp | It's the pastebin thing |
| 04:34.47 | jeffm | oh well that sounds like bad design on your part :) |
| 04:34.52 | jcp | pfft |
| 04:34.59 | jeffm | it'd be the same if you pastebined the request |
| 04:35.01 | jcp | Sending a whole stack trace as a series of IRC messages would be even worse design :-P |
| 04:35.07 | jeffm | yes |
| 04:35.11 | jeffm | that I agree with |
| 04:35.23 | jcp | Well, ideally, all that would show up is a stack trace and the "NOTOK: invalid callsign or password" message |
| 04:35.30 | jcp | in the pastebin post, instead of the user's password |
| 04:35.33 | jeffm | so your IRC bot takes passwords and sends them to the list server to get a token? |
| 04:36.10 | jcp | Correct |
| 04:36.20 | jeffm | yeah.. about that |
| 04:36.21 | jcp | http://ospaste.com/256 <--- That's an example error posts. I hand-modified that one to get rid of the password in it |
| 04:36.27 | jeffm | what prevents it from sealing passwords? |
| 04:36.31 | jcp | s/posts/post/ |
| 04:36.36 | jcp | What do you mean, stealing passwords? |
| 04:36.43 | jcp | That's like asking what prevents the BZFlag client from stealing passwords |
| 04:36.48 | jeffm | where does the bot run? |
| 04:36.57 | jcp | On the box of whoever starts their particular instance of it |
| 04:37.03 | jcp | So mine runs on the server in my basement |
| 04:37.06 | jeffm | on a server on on the computer for the user who's password |
| 04:37.11 | jeffm | and it only gets your password? |
| 04:37.11 | jcp | I'm assuming cruel_dog runs on his computer or on his server |
| 04:37.18 | cruel_dog | Server |
| 04:37.23 | jcp | It only gets the password of the account that it should sign in as |
| 04:37.25 | jeffm | or does it get other people's passwords? |
| 04:37.28 | jeffm | ok |
| 04:37.49 | jcp | So I basically tell the bot, "hey bot, connect to bzexcess.com port 5154, and sign in using the username a_bzflag_bot with the password SUPERSECRET" |
| 04:37.50 | jeffm | so efecitivly the user who is running the bot ( or the account they want to use) |
| 04:37.51 | jcp | and it does so |
| 04:37.55 | jcp | yeah |
| 04:37.56 | jeffm | ok |
| 04:37.59 | jeffm | that's fine |
| 04:38.01 | jcp | ok |
| 04:38.19 | jeffm | I just wanted to make sure it wasn't like what some websites were doing, taking end user passwords and authing for them |
| 04:39.06 | jcp | Yeah, the bot's intended to be something you download and run yourself |
| 04:39.14 | jeffm | then all is well :) |
| 04:39.16 | jcp | http://jzbot.googlecode.com <--- That's it |
| 04:39.19 | jcp | ok, thanks |
| 04:39.42 | jeffm | as for the client, you are right, but that's a you trust me issue, and you already trusted me when you registered. |
| 04:39.59 | jeffm | the webiste is a you trust someone else who you have not trusted before |
| 04:40.19 | jeffm | and we don't want to enable that trust level |
| 04:40.36 | jcp | ok |
| 04:40.37 | jcp | So I'm good? |
| 04:40.43 | jeffm | yup |
| 04:40.48 | jcp | k, awesome :) |
| 04:41.06 | jeffm | other then an overreaction to a non problem in our services ;) |
| 04:43.10 | jeffm | I guess you know it's time to stop playing FFXIII when the controler goes dead :) |
| 04:52.04 | JeffM2501 | hmmm.. now do I make a client/server test harness? or just use the reall apps..... |
| 05:52.30 | jcp | JeffM2501: so.... any chance of getting the list server GETTOKEN updated to omit the response so it responds like LIST does? |
| 05:53.19 | JeffM2501 | maybe, but I'd not hold my breath |
| 05:53.19 | JeffM2501 | it'll be a very low priority |
| 05:54.37 | JeffM2501 | you probably want to filter group and token names anyway, so this would be something else to filter |
| 05:54.39 | jcp | Oh for... |
| 05:54.59 | jcp | k, if I commit a modification to do that, would you upload it? |
| 05:55.06 | jcp | (assuming it works and everything, which it definitely will) |
| 05:55.25 | JeffM2501 | dunno, I'd have to go over it with blast |
| 05:55.38 | jcp | Fair enough |
| 05:55.38 | JeffM2501 | the services were not designed to be used by other softwares |
| 05:55.53 | jcp | I know. But it doesn't seem that hard to remove probably 30 characters or however many it ends up being |
| 05:55.54 | JeffM2501 | so changes just for them I'm not so sure about |
| 05:56.11 | JeffM2501 | I'm more interested why it's there in the first place |
| 05:56.22 | JeffM2501 | and the history behind it |
| 05:57.03 | JeffM2501 | it's also a stability thing, what we have works for it's designed use, any change to it has some risk (I'll admit minor) |
| 05:57.26 | JeffM2501 | so you are going to push tokens up to pastebin too? |
| 05:58.20 | jcp | I don't currently. I only push the message if it's a failure |
| 05:58.26 | jcp | (IE if it's something other than TOKEN:) |
| 05:58.30 | JeffM2501 | ahh |
| 05:58.45 | JeffM2501 | sounds like a debuging thing, not a production thing. |
| 05:58.52 | jcp | What? |
| 05:59.01 | JeffM2501 | using pastebin as an error log |
| 05:59.41 | JeffM2501 | I guess you return a link to the error in IRC? |
| 05:59.45 | jcp | correct |
| 06:00.15 | JeffM2501 | if we take that out, it'll say the same thing every time and be one line, why bother sending it to pastebin, why not just return the one line to IRC |
| 06:00.23 | JeffM2501 | they are both one line in RC |
| 06:00.25 | JeffM2501 | IRC |
| 06:01.19 | JeffM2501 | or is there other info there? |
| 06:01.22 | jcp | Because it's not that straightforward. A particular protocol could fail during any operation for a number of reasons besides such an error |
| 06:01.29 | jcp | There is |
| 06:01.33 | JeffM2501 | like? |
| 06:01.42 | jcp | Well, if it fails to connect to the server |
| 06:01.46 | jcp | at all |
| 06:01.53 | JeffM2501 | bot should be able to detect that error case |
| 06:01.55 | jcp | Or if I've got something messed up and it tries to dereference a null pointer |
| 06:02.03 | jcp | (which is not common but it still happens) |
| 06:02.11 | JeffM2501 | that's a debuging thing, but I understand |
| 06:02.21 | jcp | yeah |
| 06:02.32 | JeffM2501 | I'm just leery of setting a precidence for changing services to adapt to external tools |
| 06:02.37 | JeffM2501 | specialy ones we don't host |
| 06:02.52 | jcp | Then do it in the name of consistency, specifically with the LIST response |
| 06:03.00 | JeffM2501 | possibly |
| 06:03.08 | JeffM2501 | that's what I'm teetering on |
| 06:03.13 | jcp | k |
| 06:03.17 | JeffM2501 | but I want to research the history of it first |
| 06:03.24 | JeffM2501 | perhaps list shoudl have it too |
| 06:04.00 | JeffM2501 | since the intended use is for the request to always come from the machine that sent the password, and the responce not stored. |
| 06:04.35 | JeffM2501 | the question would be, do game clients get tokens with list or with gettoken? |
| 06:04.57 | JeffM2501 | if they use gettoken and that is displayed in chat, then it's useful for list too |
| 06:05.12 | jcp | That I wouldn't know. I know they don't display it as part of the NOTOK response, but that could be because of client-side filtering |
| 06:05.43 | JeffM2501 | I assume you didn't check history to see when it was added to the list server? |
| 06:06.00 | jcp | I haven't yet. Should I just check trunk? |
| 06:06.14 | JeffM2501 | I'll look |
| 06:06.33 | JeffM2501 | that would have answered your inital question on the subject :) |
| 06:07.43 | jcp | My question about what idiot added it? ;) |
| 06:08.02 | jcp | goes off to figure out who said idiot is |
| 06:08.02 | JeffM2501 | indeed |
| 06:08.05 | jcp | </insults> |
| 06:08.22 | JeffM2501 | hahaha, list servers with karma.. oh man that brings back memories |
| 06:10.10 | jcp | Hang on a sec, I'm seeing /trunk/db, but that's looking more like my.bzflag.org than my.bzflag.org/db... Am I looking in the right place? |
| 06:10.19 | JeffM2501 | yep |
| 06:11.38 | JeffM2501 | AHHH I see why |
| 06:11.44 | jcp | Found it, bzfls.php |
| 06:11.46 | jcp | why? |
| 06:11.48 | JeffM2501 | checktoken can be used to verify multiple tokens |
| 06:11.54 | JeffM2501 | so one or more may work |
| 06:12.03 | JeffM2501 | so you need to know what one failed |
| 06:12.10 | JeffM2501 | list only verifies one token |
| 06:12.15 | jcp | Dangit |
| 06:12.19 | JeffM2501 | so no.. I can't pull that |
| 06:12.20 | JeffM2501 | sorry |
| 06:12.21 | jcp | Wait, can callsigns not contain ":" |
| 06:12.27 | JeffM2501 | and tim is your idjit |
| 06:12.29 | jcp | no, I can understand that, now that I can see the reason it's there |
| 06:12.33 | jcp | haha |
| 06:12.45 | JeffM2501 | there are a bunch of characters we don't allow |
| 06:13.04 | JeffM2501 | right now phpbb limits them because there was some issue with them in the ldap system |
| 06:13.14 | JeffM2501 | so we decided to limit them now |
| 06:13.20 | JeffM2501 | to get more people "ready" |
| 06:13.23 | jcp | k. Cause if neither ":" or ")" or "(" is allowed, then I could get rid of that with a simple regex |
| 06:13.35 | JeffM2501 | I'm sure you can figure out how to filter it ;) |
| 06:13.44 | jcp | replace ^(.*)\(.*:.*\)$ with $1 |
| 06:13.50 | jcp | That's my filter |
| 06:13.53 | jcp | goes to check that into jzbot |
| 06:13.56 | JeffM2501 | the error ends in a . right? |
| 06:14.03 | jcp | hmm, I don't know |
| 06:14.05 | jcp | checks |
| 06:14.18 | jcp | NOTOK: invalid callsign or password (sdjfksdl:fsdjklfsjkldfsd) |
| 06:14.30 | JeffM2501 | o then that's easy |
| 06:14.46 | JeffM2501 | if the line starts with NOTOK< remove everything after the first ( |
| 06:14.51 | jcp | Actually, even better, just replace \(.*:.*\)$ with "" |
| 06:14.53 | jcp | yeah |
| 06:15.02 | jcp | goes to add this |
| 06:15.11 | JeffM2501 | see, not to hard :) |
| 06:16.31 | JeffM2501 | is glad he was cautious and can not be said to "just reject all changes" :) |
| 06:16.41 | jcp | :-P |
| 06:16.43 | jcp | ~restart |
| 06:16.43 | ibot | this aint no stinkin' winblows, or "Microsoft Windows: Your mouse has moved; please restart for changes to take effect" |
| 06:16.50 | jcp | erg, wrong channel |
| 06:16.55 | jcp | And haha, I like that response |
| 06:17.13 | JeffM2501 | except that when I install ubuntu, it asks me to restart after updates ;) |
| 06:17.25 | jcp | Haha |
| 06:17.29 | JeffM2501 | when all it did was install a video driver |
| 06:17.39 | JeffM2501 | my windows machine dosn't need to reboot for a simple video driver |
| 06:17.46 | jcp | But see, it doesn't really |
| 06:17.55 | jcp | I installed an Nvidia driver on my mom's computer, and it asked me to restart |
| 06:18.03 | jcp | So I just killed gdm, then gdm restarted, and the driver worked fine |
| 06:18.13 | JeffM2501 | so why dosn't it just do that? |
| 06:18.20 | jcp | That's what I've been wondering since I installed it |
| 06:18.27 | JeffM2501 | I have to know a mystic keystroke to make it work? ;) |
| 06:18.37 | JeffM2501 | why can't the isntall just do that for me? |
| 06:18.41 | JeffM2501 | install |
| 06:18.43 | jcp | My guess would be that "log out and then log back in" is more confusing than the mpre stereotypical (thanks to microsoft) "restart now" |
| 06:18.49 | jcp | *more |
| 06:18.55 | JeffM2501 | why would I have to log out? |
| 06:19.06 | JeffM2501 | just cycle the video system and keep my stuff |
| 06:19.33 | JeffM2501 | well at least ubuntu installs mono by default now, that makes me happy |
| 06:20.31 | jcp | How can you cycle X.org without killing all applications connected to it? |
| 06:20.42 | JeffM2501 | dunno, windows does i |
| 06:20.52 | JeffM2501 | video display is not tied to the application directly |
| 06:20.58 | JeffM2501 | abstraction FTW :) |
| 06:21.06 | jcp | It isn't, but most appliations will quit if you kill X.org when they're connected to it |
| 06:21.18 | JeffM2501 | well that's silly |
| 06:21.36 | JeffM2501 | what if your remote X terminal lost net connection for a bit? |
| 06:21.49 | jcp | Well, consider it from their point of view: they just lost their ability to display windows. For windowing applications, there's not much reason to keep going |
| 06:21.51 | JeffM2501 | I thought that was the point of X, to be abstracted since the app may not be running on your machine |
| 06:21.54 | jcp | Most people use a local X connection |
| 06:21.59 | jcp | Well |
| 06:22.04 | JeffM2501 | but the system is DESIGNEd to have that abstraction |
| 06:22.08 | JeffM2501 | use it to swap stuff out |
| 06:22.24 | JeffM2501 | don't tell the apps that it's gone, just que up the draws and do em when it comes back |
| 06:22.28 | JeffM2501 | they should not care |
| 06:22.35 | jcp | What queues them up? |
| 06:22.44 | jcp | The app just lost its connection to the X.org server |
| 06:22.53 | JeffM2501 | the part of X that dosn't runs wherever the apps are |
| 06:23.07 | JeffM2501 | there has to be 2 parts |
| 06:23.31 | JeffM2501 | the local X part that the app talks to, then the remote part that draws |
| 06:23.33 | jcp | Well, there technically doesn't have to be, if the application chooses to speak X directly over a socket. But you're right, most applications will use some sort of X client library |
| 06:23.38 | JeffM2501 | I'm sure tehre is some reason it dosnt' work like that |
| 06:23.44 | jcp | yeah |
| 06:23.51 | JeffM2501 | just saying there should be based on what they have for a backend |
| 06:23.55 | JeffM2501 | it's like they are almost there |
| 06:24.06 | jcp | I seem to remember reading something on that a couple of days ago, that that's been a frequently requested feature of X. And yeah, I would be totally in support of such a feature were it to be added |
| 06:24.08 | JeffM2501 | they've got some level of abstraction to support that |
| 06:24.12 | jcp | Yeah |
| 06:24.55 | jcp | The one problem I could forsee, though, is what happens to all of the other windows on the screen? X clients can interact with all windows, not just their own (that's how window managers work), so what should they preceive when they get moved to an entirely different display? |
| 06:25.10 | JeffM2501 | tho to be honest, watching windows just update my driver with a simple black flash still creeps me out :) |
| 06:25.24 | jcp | Haha |
| 06:25.26 | JeffM2501 | you should be able to suspend all those apps |
| 06:25.33 | JeffM2501 | somehow |
| 06:26.07 | JeffM2501 | the must have some way to tell em to wait for stuff like GL compositing and the like |
| 06:26.11 | jcp | That's the problem. X servers themselves aren't typically the programs that run the apps |
| 06:26.22 | jcp | Yeah, and see, I don't know how any of the OpenGL stuff works |
| 06:26.23 | JeffM2501 | the hard part is probably reattching it, some ID is probably changed |
| 06:26.27 | jcp | yeah |
| 06:26.45 | JeffM2501 | there has to be some kinda 2 way communication |
| 06:27.00 | jcp | Well yeah, there has to be for a program to receive mouse and keyboard input |
| 06:27.09 | JeffM2501 | if you could get it attatched again, just have x tell all apps "full redraw" :) |
| 06:27.47 | jcp | That might work |
| 06:27.54 | jcp | But that removes some transparency |
| 06:27.57 | JeffM2501 | it's probably easier for windows since the driver runs at a lower level I think |
| 06:28.09 | JeffM2501 | it can just tell all non kernel processes to wait |
| 06:28.09 | jcp | Then you need a way to explain to an app why a window present on one server but not on another just suddenly disappeared |
| 06:28.17 | jcp | Yeah |
| 06:28.29 | jcp | X servers in Linux aren't guaranteed to have any sort of relation to the kernel at all |
| 06:28.43 | JeffM2501 | if you didn't tell the app anything inbetween and restored it everywhere, you woudn't have to tell the app squat :) |
| 06:28.44 | jcp | Heck, I could write an X server that sends color-coded stuff to IRC, and make programs connect to it |
| 06:28.47 | jcp | Pointless though it would be |
| 06:29.19 | JeffM2501 | call it "lag" :) |
| 06:29.37 | jcp | No, I don't think you get what I'm saying. Apps have access to all of the windows on an X display, not just their own. And iirc they can register an interest in, for example, when a particular window closes. So what happens when they move to another screen where some window created by another appliation isn't present? |
| 06:29.39 | jcp | *application |
| 06:29.45 | JeffM2501 | I'll bet it opens a socket tho and you can't swap that out with out closing it |
| 06:30.08 | jcp | Well yeah, that's a given. The swapping would have to be done in the X client library an application uses |
| 06:30.10 | JeffM2501 | I understand but if that app gets no events during the swapover it shoudln't do anything |
| 06:30.24 | jcp | Right. But then it's left thinking there's a window open that really doesn't exist anymore |
| 06:30.30 | JeffM2501 | so? |
| 06:30.35 | JeffM2501 | lie to it for a bit |
| 06:30.37 | jcp | Um |
| 06:30.42 | jcp | That would play havoc with Compiz |
| 06:30.43 | jcp | (as an example) |
| 06:30.52 | JeffM2501 | no it woudln't, compiz would be told to wait too |
| 06:30.52 | jcp | if it thought it was supposed to be decorating a window that's not even there now |
| 06:31.02 | JeffM2501 | make veryone think it's a VERY long frame to draw |
| 06:31.17 | JeffM2501 | you'd have to have some links to stuff like that of course |
| 06:31.34 | JeffM2501 | it's gotta suck for people working on open source drivers, killing X all the time |
| 06:31.43 | jcp | haha |
| 06:31.51 | jcp | would guess they just run it in a different pseudoterminal |
| 06:32.00 | JeffM2501 | perhaps |
| 06:32.12 | JeffM2501 | assuming that can get full hardware access |
| 06:32.36 | jcp | Well, ordinary X servers just run on terminal 7 |
| 06:32.38 | JeffM2501 | and if you are doing stuff like putting the card into various modes, you'd not be able to display anything else |
| 06:32.42 | jcp | So just run another one on terminal 8 |
| 06:33.03 | jcp | Not quite. When you switch from one terminal to the other, it would set all of the graphics settings back to normal |
| 06:33.13 | jcp | like iirc terminals 1 through 6 are 800x600 by default |
| 06:33.20 | jcp | And on my computer, terminal 7 is 1280x800 |
| 06:33.25 | JeffM2501 | unless your driver hit's a breakpoint and locks the card in some mode :) |
| 06:33.39 | jcp | Good point |
| 06:33.43 | JeffM2501 | I'm sure that is done remotely |
| 06:34.54 | jcp | That could be |
| 06:35.06 | jcp | Just test out graphics cards on machines you don't use to develop |
| 06:35.11 | jcp | And all's good ;) |
| 06:35.19 | JeffM2501 | debugers are teh awesome |
| 06:35.51 | jcp | agrees |
| 06:36.03 | jcp | http://pastebin.hu/11902 <--- w00t, I got my filtering thing to work! |
| 06:36.32 | JeffM2501 | fun |
| 06:39.32 | JeffM2501 | you really should run your own pastebin instead of mucking up a public one |
| 06:39.35 | JeffM2501 | kinda not cool |
| 06:41.13 | jcp | I've actually got that down in my list of things to do. MrDudle's running a pastebin that I've got on the bot's rotation (it rotates between around 10 different pastebins to lessen the weight on them), and I just need to go modify it to prioritize his above the others |
| 06:41.32 | jcp | Although I want to make it so that JZBot owners can specify which pastebins are used and add their own if they want |
| 06:41.40 | jcp | But yeah |
| 06:41.43 | JeffM2501 | wow... and you felt that was a better design choice then taking the 10 min to set one up? ;) |
| 06:41.46 | JeffM2501 | wow |
| 06:41.54 | jcp | Hey, this was back before I owned a server |
| 06:42.03 | JeffM2501 | set up a local one |
| 06:42.07 | JeffM2501 | just for testing |
| 06:42.22 | jcp | ...and back before I had any idea how to set up a pastebin :-P |
| 06:42.29 | JeffM2501 | I think they are even flatfile |
| 06:42.39 | JeffM2501 | heck log to a local file for testing even |
| 06:42.41 | jcp | They're database. But they're not terribly hard to set up nowadays |
| 06:43.24 | jcp | I know. My main point for using a pastebin instead of a local log file is that you program the bot in a scripting language by sending it scripts in messages, and I wanted to be able to debug it from locations other than my computer (when my computer was running) |
| 06:43.27 | JeffM2501 | yeah kinda network fauxpas to spam pastebins for what is bassicly a debug log, even rotating them |
| 06:44.04 | JeffM2501 | it's like making sure your dog craps in EVERYONE's yard so you don't get noticed by the one guy next to your house :) |
| 06:44.20 | jcp | But either way, I've been in touch with the owner of pastebin.com (until it changed hands, at which point my bot no longer pastes to it due to the new one using a different protocol) and he's been ok with it as long as I keep the posts on his site below like 60 or so per day |
| 06:44.27 | jcp | haha |
| 06:44.38 | chaoscon | oh crap, JeffM2501 is on to my scheme |
| 06:44.51 | chaoscon | takes his dog to the park next time |
| 06:44.54 | JeffM2501 | heh |
| 06:45.02 | JeffM2501 | they give out free bags at the part |
| 06:45.04 | JeffM2501 | park |
| 06:45.41 | JeffM2501 | jcp, I hope you dontate to the public ones :) |
| 06:46.08 | jcp | I would if I had that kind of money |
| 06:46.16 | jcp | Bambino runs the BZTraining server right now |
| 06:46.18 | jcp | Remember, I'm only 17 |
| 06:46.27 | JeffM2501 | ohh I know |
| 06:46.31 | JeffM2501 | it's painfully obvious :) |
| 06:46.38 | ruskie | :) |
| 06:47.33 | JeffM2501 | I used to use a log channel on IRC when I debuged bots |
| 06:47.48 | JeffM2501 | that was at least the same connection I was using |
| 06:48.14 | chaoscon | spams his own irc channel when debugging |
| 06:48.36 | JeffM2501 | yeah then you don't anoy anyone but yourself with our own bugs |
| 06:48.55 | JeffM2501 | testing the bzflag IRC link was fun |
| 06:49.09 | JeffM2501 | test IRC channes, test servers, test users. |
| 06:49.20 | Constitution | wasn't aware that people peruse pastebins for entertainment |
| 06:49.31 | JeffM2501 | heh |
| 06:49.48 | JeffM2501 | you find the best jokes buried in them |
| 06:50.15 | JeffM2501 | oooo tweet your logs |
| 06:50.39 | JeffM2501 | then you can subscribe to your logs from your phone |
| 06:50.46 | Constitution | rofl |
| 06:51.18 | jcp | (12:46:31 AM) JeffM2501: it's painfully obvious :) <--- pfffffffft |
| 06:51.45 | JeffM2501 | sorry but it is |
| 06:51.59 | jcp | You know what's funny is that thus far you're the *only* person to say that |
| 06:52.01 | JeffM2501 | everyone has to be 17 at some point |
| 06:52.13 | JeffM2501 | is special |
| 06:52.16 | JeffM2501 | my mommie tells me so |
| 06:52.18 | jcp | won't deny that |
| 06:52.51 | JeffM2501 | yay.. the client actualy connects to the server and joins an instance |
| 06:52.55 | JeffM2501 | does a happy dance |
| 06:53.26 | Constitution | code or it didn't happen |
| 06:53.46 | JeffM2501 | oh I have an MD3 character that does the dance |
| 06:54.04 | JeffM2501 | wrote that a while ago |
| 06:54.27 | JeffM2501 | sad that I can read and animate 3 different model formats but I'm going to use static models for the start |
| 06:58.09 | JeffM2501 | http://www.awesomelaser.com/crap/MD3Test.zip |
| 06:58.16 | JeffM2501 | she'll run, walk, and dance for ya |
| 06:58.24 | JeffM2501 | and die too if you are a sick bastard ;) |
| 07:01.31 | JeffM2501 | that meet your requirements? |
| 07:01.58 | Constitution | gotta set up my windows vm and see :) |
| 07:02.07 | JeffM2501 | no you don't |
| 07:02.18 | JeffM2501 | should run on linux and mac |
| 07:02.23 | JeffM2501 | if you have mono installed |
| 07:02.57 | chaoscon | wonders if he has mono installed to observe said app |
| 07:03.04 | JeffM2501 | haven't tried it in a while on linux |
| 07:03.14 | JeffM2501 | but it worked when I did some testing there |
| 07:03.55 | JeffM2501 | if not I need to find out why and get it fixed, as that's the linchpin to my plans |
| 07:06.05 | JeffM2501 | I don't think it uses any OS specific path seperators, and the controlls should be in mono2.0 |
| 07:07.14 | Constitution | doesn't work in either for me |
| 07:07.28 | JeffM2501 | what does it do? |
| 07:07.32 | Constitution | starts opening and then doesn't open in windows |
| 07:07.42 | JeffM2501 | anything in the terminal window? |
| 07:07.48 | JeffM2501 | like an exception? |
| 07:08.32 | JeffM2501 | oh in windows... |
| 07:08.38 | Constitution | hm, no |
| 07:08.39 | JeffM2501 | you have .net 3.0? |
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| 07:08.45 | Constitution | not even when I run it in the command prompt |
| 07:08.58 | JeffM2501 | command prompt output only happens in mono |
| 07:09.06 | Constitution | probably not |
| 07:09.07 | JeffM2501 | windows should show the normal "it died" box |
| 07:09.09 | JeffM2501 | if it dies |
| 07:09.19 | JeffM2501 | yeah it needs .net 3.0 at least IIRC |
| 07:09.26 | JeffM2501 | 3.5 is the current one |
| 07:10.15 | JeffM2501 | I do know that I'll probably have to make an OS specific one shot package for each OS |
| 07:10.19 | JeffM2501 | that puts the dependencies in |
| 07:10.43 | JeffM2501 | but after that all OSs are 'suposed' to work off the same bins |
| 07:10.52 | JeffM2501 | so I can do live updates on startup |
| 07:11.12 | JeffM2501 | then nobody will be running an old version :) |
| 07:11.57 | Constitution | windows 7 wouldn't have the latest version by default? |
| 07:12.22 | JeffM2501 | it should have 3.5 |
| 07:12.40 | JeffM2501 | it's possible the OpenGL stuff failed if it's in VM |
| 07:12.49 | JeffM2501 | didn't check all error codes :) |
| 07:12.57 | JeffM2501 | it is just a test app |
| 07:15.15 | Constitution | yeah I have the latest .NET framework |
| 07:16.33 | JeffM2501 | must be some other aspect of the VM |
| 07:16.49 | JeffM2501 | once I ran it in a linux VM and it was less then happy when displaying things too |
| 07:17.59 | Constitution | linux gives me this error: http://pastebin.com/QXGaz3XC |
| 07:18.44 | JeffM2501 | you just double clicked it didn't you? |
| 07:18.49 | chaoscon | is waiting for mono to build |
| 07:18.53 | Constitution | yeah |
| 07:19.11 | JeffM2501 | your X is set to execute .exe files with archiver |
| 07:19.18 | JeffM2501 | thinking they are self extracting zip files |
| 07:19.26 | JeffM2501 | you have to tell it to use mono |
| 07:19.39 | JeffM2501 | or just terminal it, mono APP.EXE |
| 07:20.20 | Constitution | hmmm |
| 07:20.43 | JeffM2501 | current ubuntu should have mono installed |
| 07:20.46 | Constitution | http://pastebin.com/nXeFAYRr |
| 07:21.11 | JeffM2501 | what version of mono do you have? |
| 07:21.41 | Constitution | Mono JIT compiler version 2.4.2.3 (Debian 2.4.2.3+dfsg-2) |
| 07:22.02 | JeffM2501 | interesting, winforms should be part of that |
| 07:22.31 | JeffM2501 | oh well |
| 07:22.35 | JeffM2501 | goes to make sleep |
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| 10:07.47 | trepan | Constitution: you tried the flexflags patch? |
| 10:08.05 | Constitution | don't think I've heard of it |
| 10:09.20 | trepan | "< Constitution> ~trepan++" ? |
| 10:09.38 | Constitution | oh... |
| 10:10.17 | Constitution | no, but it sounded good :) |
| 10:14.09 | Constitution | looked like a lot of work |
| 10:15.25 | brad | what does it do trepan? |
| 10:17.07 | Constitution | <trepan> updated for v2_0branch: http://trepan.bzflag.bz/noshow/flexflagsV1.diff |
| 10:17.07 | Constitution | <trepan> ...easier flag configuration and run-time management |
| 10:17.52 | brad | ah |
| 11:16.45 | shining | 07:24 <@JeffM2501> tho to be honest, watching windows just update my driver with a simple black flash still creeps me out :) |
| 11:16.57 | shining | what windows version is that, and what driver ? |
| 11:18.34 | shining | this might be one of the thing that piss me off the most about windows, asking to reboot for every damn thing. it even asks rebooting for thousands of classic applications. any driver, of course video ones, but even a mouse one |
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| 12:14.02 | blast007 | shining: I think Windows 7 (and maybe Vista) can update the video driver without a reboot |
| 12:15.07 | shining | oh cool, so they finally fixed that general problem in 7 ? |
| 12:15.21 | shining | it was not just the video driver, it was everything |
| 12:16.08 | blast007 | "general problem" .. "everything" ? |
| 12:16.27 | shining | "asks rebooting for thousands of classic applications." |
| 12:16.35 | blast007 | that's not Windows asking |
| 12:16.41 | blast007 | that's the classic application's installer :P |
| 12:16.51 | shining | of course but why ? |
| 12:16.59 | blast007 | because their app sucks? |
| 12:17.40 | blast007 | it's not Windows' fault that some random installer says you have to reboot ;) |
| 12:18.19 | blast007 | I could see it if said installer installs some patch/package that updates Windows system files |
| 12:18.22 | shining | well its hard to affirm that if we dont know why the need to do it |
| 12:19.00 | blast007 | shining: ask the author of said software then |
| 12:19.08 | blast007 | it's not a direct problem with Windows |
| 12:23.20 | shining | from a stupid user point of view , I just found it funny to say windows is superior to linux because of less rebooting. my experience says its exactly the opposite |
| 12:24.50 | ruskie | ? |
| 12:28.13 | shining | but maybe things improved in that area and my windows experience is not up-to-date |
| 12:28.23 | shining | ruskie: if you have questions, ask them, dont be scared |
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| 12:30.15 | Cobra_Fast | lol there would be no reason to reboot a linux box, except for a new kernel |
| 12:31.20 | ruskie | Cobra_Fast, and with the live splicing not even then |
| 12:31.58 | Cobra_Fast | :) |
| 12:33.01 | shining | 07:16 <@JeffM2501> except that when I install ubuntu, it asks me to restart after updates ;) |
| 12:33.05 | shining | 07:16 <@JeffM2501> when all it did was install a video driver |
| 12:33.07 | shining | 07:16 <@JeffM2501> my windows machine dosn't need to reboot for a simple video driver |
| 12:33.28 | Cobra_Fast | yes, ubuntu expects the user to be dumb |
| 12:33.31 | ruskie | I won't really comment on ubuntu |
| 12:34.16 | Cobra_Fast | pressing ctrl+alt+backspace will work as well after installing video drivers |
| 12:38.10 | shining | heh just read the backlog. seems it might not be already online. it does seem that windows might have became superior, at least in the area of video driver |
| 12:38.49 | shining | if it doesnt require you to kill/restart graphic interface (X) and all apps (clients) |
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| 16:32.22 | blast007 | JefferyM: checktoken != gettoken ;) |
| 16:32.31 | JefferyM | ahh |
| 16:32.40 | blast007 | checktoken is what the server could use |
| 16:32.47 | blast007 | gettoken is what the client could use |
| 16:32.49 | JefferyM | any idea why we send the info back? |
| 16:32.51 | blast007 | but neither do |
| 16:32.59 | blast007 | no |
| 16:33.08 | blast007 | I think we *used* to send it back for LIST as well |
| 16:33.14 | JefferyM | hmmm |
| 16:33.22 | blast007 | I seem to recall it showing up in the client before |
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| 16:33.36 | JefferyM | not a horrible thing to show |
| 16:46.38 | blast007 | his point about a 'packet sniffer' is moot as well, since you're still sending the password *to* the list server in plain text ;) |
| 16:46.52 | JefferyM | yeah |
| 16:49.27 | blast007 | the stuff was apparently removed from the LIST action over 4 years ago ;) |
| 16:49.37 | blast007 | http://bzflag.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/bzflag?view=rev&revision=11797 |
| 16:50.12 | JefferyM | well the reasoning for it is silly, using pastebin as a log |
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| 16:51.06 | blast007 | still, it's kinda useless information to include |
| 16:54.08 | CIA-53 | BZFlag: 03blast007 * r20928 10/trunk/db/bzfls.php: Don't show the username/password in the GETTOKEN response when the credentials are invalid. |
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| 17:03.56 | JefferyM | yeah it is |
| 17:04.08 | JefferyM | I just didn't want to make a change just for a third party tool |
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| 17:09.39 | CIA-53 | BZFlag: 03blast007 * r20929 10/trunk/db/ (bzfls.php weblogin.php): Use the normal filename for the phpBB3 include. |
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| 17:11.46 | CIA-53 | BZFlag: 03runic * r20930 10/trunk/bzworkbench/share/zone_color_test.bzw: - map that shows a strange color bug with zones, all other objects get colorized blue, selecting and deselecting the zone toggles this effect. |
| 17:13.05 | CIA-53 | BZFlag: 03runic * r20931 10/trunk/bzworkbench/src/objects/zone.cpp: - fixes zone color bug. |
| 17:13.27 | JefferyM | yay for test parts to go with bug fixes :) |
| 17:13.36 | JefferyM | ibot, Runic++ |
| 17:14.37 | Runic | :) thanks |
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| 18:22.46 | CIA-53 | BZFlag: 03runic * r20932 10/trunk/bzworkbench/share/material_index_test.bzw: - added test map that use matref indexes instead of matref name |
| 18:24.15 | CIA-53 | BZFlag: 03runic * r20933 10/trunk/bzworkbench/src/model/Model.cpp: - added support for references materials by index |
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| 18:41.32 | squeeja | unf unf unf unf! |
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| 18:52.10 | BlasterWisconsin | What is unf unf unf ? |
| 18:52.21 | BlasterWisconsin | unf |
| 18:52.35 | temporalD | this is the set up line for a joke, right? :) |
| 18:52.53 | BlasterWisconsin | lol no |
| 18:53.11 | blast007 | BlasterWisconsin: see my comment in the mofo channel |
| 18:53.14 | Runic | the opposite of "f" |
| 18:53.26 | BlasterWisconsin | iam not worldly i live in a cave so to speak |
| 18:53.44 | BlasterWisconsin | k ty blast |
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| 19:17.43 | JefferyM | heh |
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| 19:27.08 | JefferyM | hmm blaster, rocket, misile, vulcan, cannon, laser, plasma, mortar, FAB, railgun.. what else am I missing? |
| 19:27.36 | blast007 | cow launcher |
| 19:27.43 | Bambino | nun-chucker |
| 19:27.50 | JefferyM | is it guded or unguided? |
| 19:28.36 | Bambino | fire and forget |
| 19:28.46 | JefferyM | guided shell then |
| 19:29.09 | JefferyM | that's what the mortar is |
| 19:30.12 | JefferyM | hmm how many cows are in a clip? |
| 19:30.18 | blast007 | one |
| 19:30.25 | JefferyM | heh |
| 19:30.52 | JefferyM | what's sad is I don't think it'd be too hard to make one of those with simple server settings |
| 19:31.18 | JefferyM | I assume high splash damage? |
| 19:31.52 | JefferyM | all tanks that survive end up with a milk mustache |
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| 19:48.00 | Runic | flame thrower ! |
| 19:48.11 | JefferyM | not a bad idea |
| 19:48.19 | JefferyM | danger of getting yourself |
| 19:48.43 | Runic | sorry your game is over becuase you burt up the map |
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| 19:50.39 | Runic | bow and arrow with thermo-nucular warheads |
| 19:50.56 | JefferyM | I'll leave that for when I add ground troops :) |
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| 19:52.00 | Runic | is it always modern time? |
| 19:52.44 | JefferyM | future time probably |
| 19:53.20 | temporalD | long time ago in a galaxy far, far away |
| 19:53.21 | Runic | well I gues you could still have a crossbow, even if it is future/modern |
| 19:53.35 | JefferyM | or just a grenade launcher :) |
| 19:54.12 | Runic | so I guess boil;ing oil is out |
| 19:55.35 | Runic | tear gas, napom |
| 19:56.04 | JefferyM | the FAB is like napalm |
| 19:57.51 | Bambino | boomerang with razor blades dipped in poison |
| 19:58.13 | Runic | land mines |
| 19:59.50 | Bambino | blow darts |
| 19:59.57 | JefferyM | prehaps, since there is a detonation radius, mines could work |
| 20:00.04 | JefferyM | they don't work in bzflag |
| 20:00.11 | blast007 | JefferyM: add genocide to piss tobylane off |
| 20:00.16 | JefferyM | heh |
| 20:00.17 | Runic | lol |
| 20:00.20 | blast007 | cuz then we can say another game has it |
| 20:00.21 | Bambino | hah |
| 20:00.38 | Bambino | an angry wife with a knife |
| 20:00.46 | Runic | to real |
| 20:01.11 | JefferyM | and how would she beat a tank? |
| 20:01.14 | Bambino | an angry wife with the launch codes to nuclear missiles |
| 20:01.38 | JefferyM | I would like to do "dude with a block of C4" at some point |
| 20:01.44 | JefferyM | since he can take out a tank :) |
| 20:01.55 | Runic | it an angry wife, she would just need to yell at it loud enough and it would fall apart |
| 20:01.57 | Bambino | Barret 50 cal. |
| 20:02.07 | JefferyM | and "chick with a rocket launcher" |
| 20:02.57 | Runic | maaybe hit it with a frying pan |
| 20:03.04 | JefferyM | that'll make the people that want ST+CL happy |
| 20:05.48 | Bambino | ST+CL+L+GM+SB+T+N+QT+V+A+WG+OO+G = :) |
| 20:06.26 | Runic | greedy |
| 20:06.46 | Bambino | what's all this for, anyways? |
| 20:06.50 | Bambino | fork in the game? |
| 20:06.53 | JefferyM | my thing |
| 20:07.26 | Runic | that's real descriptive |
| 20:07.28 | JefferyM | infantry has a very slow sensor profile and would be harder to see when you are in a tank since they are lower then your eyeline |
| 20:07.34 | JefferyM | opencombat.net |
| 20:08.19 | Runic | you should be able to see them at a distance thou |
| 20:08.38 | JefferyM | yeah |
| 20:08.41 | Bambino | I remember that tank : |
| 20:08.43 | JefferyM | if you look hard enough |
| 20:08.43 | Bambino | :) |
| 20:09.17 | JefferyM | I may give them a "hide" command that makes them invisible when near walls, but they can't move |
| 20:09.38 | JefferyM | but that's later |
| 20:09.41 | JefferyM | v2 |
| 20:09.54 | JefferyM | just hovertanks for now |
| 20:10.02 | JefferyM | but not that one |
| 20:10.09 | JefferyM | can't use that one |
| 20:11.15 | JefferyM | the texture mapping on it is "meh" too |
| 20:18.16 | Runic | do tanks just die on hit or do they take damage? |
| 20:18.24 | JefferyM | damage |
| 20:18.39 | JefferyM | but you can set the shots to do 100% damage on hit |
| 20:18.43 | Runic | will there be repair droid or a station |
| 20:18.45 | JefferyM | so it could play like bzflag |
| 20:18.47 | JefferyM | shields |
| 20:18.57 | JefferyM | they will recharge over time as you don't take hits |
| 20:19.18 | JefferyM | or it could be done with pickups |
| 20:19.28 | JefferyM | it should be all configurable ( that's the goal at least ) |
| 20:19.45 | JefferyM | set the recharge to 0, and have a pickup that grants N shield power |
| 20:21.27 | JefferyM | I think the spec has hull points too, so could do it that way |
| 20:22.23 | JefferyM | setting hull points to some value, then making shield power be 0 would probalby be the best way to emulate bz |
| 20:22.48 | JefferyM | then a shield pickup could just grant one hit's worth of sheild power |
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| 21:41.21 | trepan | brad: add -fe <number> (extra), -ff <number> (forced), and -fr <number> (random) bzfs command line switches (replaces -f/+f/-s/+s) |
| 21:41.41 | trepan | (-frmax and -frtimes as well...) |
| 21:42.07 | trepan | and the associated '/flag <fr|ff|frmax|frtimes>' bzfs run-time commands |
| 21:42.51 | trepan | hm, that's wrong :) -fe <number>, -ff <flag>[/number], -fr <flag>[/number] |
| 21:55.39 | *** join/#bzflag temporalD (~ATD@bzflag/serverop/TemporalDistraction) |
| 22:01.00 | Wreckage | When you -saveworld mapname.bzw are you getting the full bzw? |
| 22:01.37 | JefferyM | no |
| 22:01.43 | temporalD | no, the full bzw that an owner hosts is never sent as a whole - you are getting an interpretation |
| 22:01.58 | JefferyM | you get the parts that the client needed |
| 22:02.03 | Wreckage | Ah thought so... what is left out? |
| 22:02.14 | JefferyM | world weapons, comments |
| 22:02.19 | JefferyM | anything that is for the server only |
| 22:02.21 | JefferyM | oiptions |
| 22:02.25 | JefferyM | options |
| 22:02.32 | Wreckage | ah ww is what I wanted to hear. |
| 22:02.33 | Wreckage | thanks |
| 22:02.34 | temporalD | i've seen tele links go wonky |
| 22:02.44 | JefferyM | depends how they get defined |
| 22:02.54 | trepan | weaapons are saved? (World.cx |
| 22:03.01 | trepan | World.cxx:1138 |
| 22:03.10 | JefferyM | taht's right you added that didn't you |
| 22:03.13 | Bambino | you also don't get zones |
| 22:03.15 | JefferyM | they wern't at one point |
| 22:03.29 | trepan | zones? World.cxx:1163 |
| 22:03.39 | JefferyM | heh |
| 22:03.42 | Wreckage | Wait they are? |
| 22:04.10 | JefferyM | if they were defined in the map, there are other ways to fire a weapon then using a map tho. |
| 22:04.25 | Wreckage | Oh how is that? |
| 22:04.37 | temporalD | plugin |
| 22:05.10 | trepan | fwiw, the weapon and zone output is limited, they missing some keywords iirc |
| 22:05.16 | trepan | s/they/they are/ |
| 22:05.36 | trepan | ex: weapons are missing 'tilt' |
| 22:05.59 | Wreckage | tilt as in vertical angle? |
| 22:06.02 | trepan | yes |
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| 22:09.49 | trepan | fwiw, an update for the observer mouse control v2_0branch: http://trepan.bzflag.bz/noshow/mouseobs_forceradar.diff |
| 22:10.04 | trepan | also includes the client-side "/forceradar" command (for observers and no-radar maps) |
| 22:10.35 | trepan | s/and no-radar/on no-radar/ |
| 22:11.00 | temporalD | where could I find a quick how-to for applying a diff? |
| 22:11.39 | brlcad | fg |
| 22:12.25 | trepan | man patch (*ni |
| 22:12.35 | trepan | *nix, can't type worth crap today ... |
| 22:13.33 | Wreckage | Where would you define ww's outside of the bzw? |
| 22:14.08 | Wreckage | for wwzones |
| 22:22.40 | brlcad | :) |
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| 22:28.26 | JefferyM | Wreckage,they arn't tied to zones |
| 22:28.36 | JefferyM | a plugin can fire weapon shots based on logic |
| 22:28.40 | JefferyM | that's how SWDeath works |
| 22:28.48 | JefferyM | it just tells the game "fire this shot here" |
| 22:28.55 | JefferyM | so it's never stored in the map |
| 22:29.38 | JefferyM | zones and on cap events in the map are just one way to get the server to fire weapons |
| 22:51.38 | Wreckage | I was trying to ask where you tell e.g. SWDeath where _here_ is ("fire this shot here") |
| 22:51.53 | JefferyM | the plugin specifies that |
| 22:52.23 | JefferyM | in the case of SW death, the plugin is notified where the death happened and uses that postion to generate the shot |
| 22:52.28 | JefferyM | the map is not used at all |
| 22:53.10 | Wreckage | how about maps that have a trigger zone? |
| 22:53.29 | Wreckage | r3's hix dodging school, for exampel |
| 22:53.35 | Wreckage | example* |
| 22:54.24 | Wreckage | (your tank goes into a certain area on map, causing bullets to fire at you from a "tank") |
| 22:54.31 | JefferyM | the plugin can query normal zones in the map |
| 22:55.00 | JefferyM | there are many ways for the plugin to compute a position |
| 22:55.21 | JefferyM | it may or may not use the map, it's up to the specific needs of the plugin |
| 22:56.24 | Wreckage | HUMPF. |
| 22:56.38 | JefferyM | what exactly are you trying to do? |
| 22:57.24 | Wreckage | Well currently trying to understand r3's map so I can use the same method in another map |
| 22:57.45 | JefferyM | have you tried asking him for the origonal map and talking to him about how he did it? |
| 22:57.53 | Wreckage | mte |
| 22:58.13 | JefferyM | huh? |
| 22:58.33 | Wreckage | oh. (mte=my thoughts exactly) sorry for chat lingo!! :) |
| 22:58.46 | JefferyM | if ww zones work like I think they do, I can see how it could be done with out a plugin |
| 22:59.23 | Wreckage | I am about to do that, I was just trying to see if I could figure it out myself based on what I saw in the map file... but then couldn't find anything |
| 23:00.30 | JefferyM | docs don't show a trigger for ww's from zones so I may be wrong |
| 23:01.32 | JefferyM | then there are a couple ways to do it with a plugin |
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| 23:53.14 | ahs3- | Wreckage: http://my.bzflag.org/w/Wwzones |
| 23:53.42 | JefferyM | ahh it's a plugin on it's own |
| 23:54.47 | Wreckage | yes that's what I was talking about |
| 23:54.48 | JefferyM | then yeah make a grid of zones that fire a shot that would go thru the zone |
| 23:55.09 | ahs3- | i would use cylinder if it applies, bbox is kinda buggy |
| 23:55.13 | JefferyM | so like a chessboard |
| 23:55.17 | JefferyM | ok |
| 23:55.19 | JefferyM | sure |
| 23:55.28 | JefferyM | make each one a bit bigger then a tank |
| 23:55.37 | JefferyM | and have he shot aim for the zone center |
| 23:55.41 | JefferyM | then it's a fixed vector |
| 23:55.54 | Wreckage | woa there JeffM |
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| 23:59.26 | JefferyM | ? |