IRC log for #bzflag on 20090630

00:02.25CIA-62BZFlag: 03Mets 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5930 10/w/Castle_Warfare: /* Castle Warfare today */
00:02.25BulletCatcherIt's not you we need to track, but the wiki spammers.
00:03.06Mets:)
00:06.21*** join/#bzflag jcp (n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539)
00:10.04*** join/#bzflag bryjen (n=bryjen@cpe-75-81-208-170.we.res.rr.com)
00:10.04*** mode/#bzflag [+v bryjen] by ChanServ
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00:56.53*** join/#bzflag Mets (n=Mets@cpe-72-224-55-41.nycap.res.rr.com)
00:57.20Metsoh silly internet on/off button on my router...i thought my whole network just went down :p
01:00.26JefferyMit did
01:00.29JefferyMfor you ;)
01:07.54*** join/#bzflag Mets (n=Mets@cpe-72-224-55-41.nycap.res.rr.com)
01:16.47KingRobotping trepan
01:19.43KingRobotnvm, just found it diffing the source changes
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02:03.35MrDudlebbs
02:28.12CIA-62BZFlag: 03trepan * r20016 10/trunk/bzflag/data/alpha_gradient.png: * added the tiny alpha_gradient.png file ("white 0" -> "white 1")
02:29.00CIA-62BZFlag: 03trepan * r20017 10/trunk/bzflag/data/Makefile.am: * updated for alpha_gradient.png
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02:42.26jcp~wp
02:42.27ibota word processor is to words as a food processor is to food. Use LaTeX instead!
02:42.36jcp~wikipedia
02:42.47jcp~wikipedia wikipedia
02:42.49spldart~doh
02:42.50ibotit has been said that doh is what homer simpson says when sid crashes
02:43.11jcpok, so it's not just me
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02:43.39*** mode/#bzflag [+v Thumper_] by ChanServ
02:56.15*** part/#bzflag KingRobot (n=mathew@unaffiliated/kingrobot)
02:58.51CIA-62BZFlag: 03kingrobot * r20018 10/trunk/bzflag/ (9 files in 2 dirs):
02:58.51CIA-62BZFlag: bzrobots: Changes to RCLink so sockets will build on Windows
02:58.51CIA-62BZFlag: libgame: Updated project to reflect trepan's BZDBNames
03:04.19*** join/#bzflag KingRobot (n=mathew@unaffiliated/kingrobot)
03:09.39spldartIt would appear my build problem at work, on a nearly identical machine as my home tester, was install related. Home rig is building with client = yes... waiting on outcome of a nice make.
03:09.59spldartwonders what broke
03:38.12*** join/#bzflag spldart (n=spldart2@bzflag/contributor/spldart)
03:38.12*** mode/#bzflag [+v spldart] by ChanServ
03:42.55spldartParabolic = trippy
03:46.20trepanmouse control variable, or recent demo server?
03:47.36trepanor something else entirely?  ;)
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03:55.18CIA-62BZFlag: 03trepan * r20019 10/trunk/bzflag/ (22 files in 11 dirs):
03:55.18CIA-62BZFlag: * bumped protocol and rev
03:55.18CIA-62BZFlag: * added the 'phydrvswap' keyword for group instances
03:55.18CIA-62BZFlag: * added the 'noblending' keyword for materials
03:57.00*** part/#bzflag KingRobot (n=mathew@unaffiliated/kingrobot)
04:01.13*** join/#bzflag KingRobot (n=mathew@unaffiliated/kingrobot)
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04:06.12*** mode/#bzflag [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ
04:16.47*** join/#bzflag jcp (n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539)
04:35.08*** join/#bzflag KingRobot1 (n=mathew@student4945.student.nau.edu)
04:45.53KingRobot1bzrobots now works on Windows :)
04:48.32trepancongrats
04:53.05TD-Linuxtrepan, parabolic shots?
04:53.15TD-Linuxalso what's with all the random objects shots collide with?
04:53.45CIA-62BZFlag: 03Bulldozer 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5931 10/w/BZRobots:
04:56.29trepanTD-Linux: huh?
04:58.24TD-Linux... nevermind :P
05:10.28*** part/#bzflag KingRobot1 (n=mathew@unaffiliated/kingrobot)
05:16.48*** join/#bzflag jorgenpt (n=jorgenpt@tjer.no)
05:17.11jorgenptNoo, did KingRobot leave while I was disconnected? :/
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05:27.51*** join/#bzflag MrDudle (n=MrDudle@unaffiliated/mrdudle)
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05:47.19CIA-62BZFlag: 03will07c5 * r20020 10/trunk/bzworkbench/ (12 files in 11 dirs): texture matrices can now be edited, renamed and removed
05:59.03*** part/#bzflag bryjen (n=bryjen@cpe-75-81-208-170.we.res.rr.com)
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06:57.57CIA-62BZFlag: 03Mets 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5932 10/w/BZtank: New page: BZtank is a BZFlag server network, located in London, United Kingdom. ==Background== BZtank was founded in 2007 by current server owner Benfish to improve the gaming experience for non-...
06:58.21MetsI'm just a wiki machine today
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07:09.53CIA-62BZFlag: 03Mets 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5933 10/w/BZtank:
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07:15.10CIA-62BZFlag: 03Bambino 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5934 10/w/Getting_Started: /* Controls */ spacebar drop flag enter fire
07:17.45CIA-62BZFlag: 03Mets 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5935 10/w/BZtank: /* Community */
07:36.52Metsdoes anybody know if our wiki has the tidy plugin, and if we might be able to upload some templates?
07:37.21CIA-62BZFlag: 03Mets 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5936 10/w/BZtank: /* Admin Staff */
08:00.09CIA-62BZFlag: 03Mets 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5937 10/w/BZtank:
08:00.30CIA-62BZFlag: 03Mets 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5938 10/w/BZtank: /* Community */
08:28.28CIA-62BZFlag: 03Mets 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5939 10/w/BZtank: /* Admin Staff */
08:53.13CIA-62BZFlag: 03Mets 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5940 10/w/BZtank: /* Current Maps */
08:54.22CIA-62BZFlag: 03Mets 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5941 10/w/Castle_Warfare:
09:04.31CIA-62BZFlag: 03Mets 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5942 10/w/The_Two_Tanks: New page: ?????????The Two Tanks????????? is a 2 team (red vs. blue) CTF map hosted on [[BZtank]]. ==Description== Some main features of the map are listed here. (The map is exactly symmetrical). ...
09:11.06CIA-62BZFlag: 03Mets 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5943 10/w/Category:LouMan_Maps: New page: [[Category:Maps]]
09:14.02CIA-62BZFlag: 03Mets 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5944 10/w/Overlord:
09:19.18CIA-62BZFlag: 03Mets 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5945 10/w/Category:Server_Network: New page: Pages related to [[server network|server networks]]
09:20.05CIA-62BZFlag: 03Mets 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5946 10/w/BZFX:
09:20.23CIA-62BZFlag: 03Mets 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5947 10/w/BZtank:
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09:27.13CIA-62BZFlag: 03Mets 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5948 10/w/Server_network: New page: For a list of server networks, see [[:Category:Server Network]] For information on creating and running a server, see [[creating a server]] A server network is a group of individuals tha...
09:27.58CIA-62BZFlag: 03Mets 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5949 10/w/Server_network:
09:29.50CIA-62BZFlag: 03Mets 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5950 10/w/Category:Maps:
09:30.28CIA-62BZFlag: 03Mets 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5951 10/w/BZtank: /* Current Maps */
09:30.54CIA-62BZFlag: 03Mets 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5952 10/w/BZtank: /* Current Maps */
09:31.47CIA-62BZFlag: 03Mets 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5953 10/w/High_Rise_Havoc: New page: A map by LouMan featuring two unfinished sky scrapers that the players compete on. {{Category:LouMan Maps}} {{Stub}}
09:32.06CIA-62BZFlag: 03Mets 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5954 10/w/High_Rise_Havoc:
09:32.51CIA-62BZFlag: 03Mets 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5955 10/w/High_Rise_Havoc:
09:33.55CIA-62BZFlag: 03Mets 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5956 10/w/High_Rise_Havoc:
09:34.37CIA-62BZFlag: 03Mets 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5957 10/w/High_Rise_Havoc:
09:45.04cygal~Mets++
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09:45.11CIA-62BZFlag: 03Mets 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5958 10/w/BZFlag_on_IRC: /* stormcenter.net */
10:23.24*** join/#bzflag Saturos (n=Saturos@p5B3F8F9D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
11:00.47*** join/#bzflag bier (n=bier@217.226.246.121)
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11:42.45eldifehi
11:43.10eldifeanybody onboard?
11:45.40*** join/#bzflag eldife (n=el_dife_@90.pool85-50-155.dynamic.orange.es)
11:50.21jorgenptIf you have a question, ask it. Anyone who's around will try to answer ;)
11:54.04eldifehi everybody. I'm having a prob with the game. Anybody could help?
11:54.17temp_distmaybe
11:54.36temp_distwhat is the problem?
11:54.38eldifeit's about the UDP message.
11:55.10eldifecan't make my first shot in most of the servers.
11:56.09eldifeBZF 2.0.10 WinXP, wired router.
11:57.13eldifetried opening ports, upgrade firmware, reinstall game.
11:57.40eldifebut I'm as noob in hte game as in networks and so :)
11:58.02eldifeany idea?
11:58.33temp_distif you stick around for a while, maybe someone that knows will answer
11:59.04eldifemm, I'll have to go to work in a quarter :(
11:59.21temp_distdo you know about the BZBB forum?
11:59.42eldifeyep, but tried all the suggestions there, and it didn't work
12:00.07eldifeeverybody points to ISP or router prob
12:00.50temp_distcould be a firewall that you've forgotten
12:01.19eldifeno, I've got the Windows one and the router one off
12:03.06eldifethink I'll try tomorrow and post in the forums again
12:03.16temp_distgood luck
12:03.17eldifethnx a lot temp_dist
12:10.20*** join/#bzflag Wits (n=Wits@248.119.33.65.cfl.res.rr.com)
12:24.00CIA-62BZFlag: 03DonnyBaker 07http://my.bzflag.org * r0 10/w/Special:Log/import: imported [[Template:Infobox]] by file upload: 174 revision(s)
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12:30.28joevano"The competent programmer is fully aware of the limited size of his own skull. He therefore approaches his task with full humility, and avoids clever tricks like the plague." --Dijkstra
12:34.07jorgenpt<3
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14:15.56CIA-62BZFlag: 03bthansen * r20021 10/trunk/bzflag/src/bzfs/bzfsAPI.cxx:
14:15.56CIA-62BZFlag: Quell Gcc 4.03 compiler warning
14:15.56CIA-62BZFlag: Returning -1 as an unsigned int warns as follows in GCC 4.03:
14:15.56CIA-62BZFlag: warning: converting negative value '-0x00000000000000001' to 'unsigned int'
14:21.33*** join/#bzflag nijineko (n=nijineko@76.250.103.124)
14:35.47*** join/#bzflag Upsetter (n=ups@i59F7D3D2.versanet.de)
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15:03.21Metscygal: thanks :)
15:09.53tsmbo's filesystem is full, global down :(
15:11.19*** join/#bzflag ts_ (n=ts@bzflag/developer/ts)
15:12.10bradheh
15:16.08ts_emailed brclad
15:22.13*** join/#bzflag MindstormsKid (n=msk@Wikipedia/MindstormsKid)
15:24.01Pimpistill listserver problems?
15:24.59joevanoPimpi: yes, but gettng better i think.. i get a different message now
15:25.12bradts_: will he get the mail with no disk space left? :P
15:25.50steerpikeconfirmed, list server down
15:26.29steerpikethe curl requests need to be threaded imo :\
15:26.46steerpikeit prevents you from accessing the other menus until it's done
15:26.49brad~pw
15:26.50ibotmethinks patches welcome is a common response by maintainers of Open Source products. It's roughly means "We don't have much time on our hands, so if you write that feature and send it to us we will likely roll it in. If you don't have the time to write it, we don't either. Stop asking for it."
15:27.23steerpikei know, but i was wondering if the idea was proposed before
15:27.49steerpikeor if it's even a problem for most
15:27.51bradis unsure...just felt cool to use that
15:28.06bradand yes, it is a bit of a problem here when list server is slow
15:28.18bradI disabled MOTD for that  reason
15:28.31*** join/#bzflag KTL (n=KTL@213.219.143.80.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net)
15:28.36BulletCatcherIt is Hard to add threading to a program like bzflag that was not originally designed to use it.
15:28.39steerpikehey KTL :)
15:28.46KTLhoy
15:28.50KTLeverything down?
15:28.55steerpikeaye
15:29.12KTLmmm :) fix fix :)
15:32.45KTLsteerpike, there is still a server on 85.158.215.1:666, for example.
15:35.50trepan<PROTECTED>
15:36.28*** join/#bzflag ophag (n=default@dslb-088-068-116-118.pools.arcor-ip.net)
15:36.32KTLno space left on device i guess
15:39.04joevanobzbb is back
15:39.25brad~bzflist
15:39.34brad:)
15:39.50KTLstill many ppl online ...
15:41.52trepancleaned his bzflag/ build @ bzflag.bz, wonder if that helped (~250M)
15:43.06joevanoprobably for a while :P
15:43.57ophagwoot
15:44.13KTL(/me usually deletes a lot of documentation in /usr/share/doc, with the help of ncdu)
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16:01.23*** join/#bzflag temp_work (n=temporal@bzflag/serverop/TemporalDistraction)
16:07.00CIA-62BZFlag: 03Mets 07http://my.bzflag.org * r6134 10/w/BZtank: typo
16:07.57ts_brad: Who said I used an email on this server? :)
16:08.52bradwas just making wild assumptions
16:09.44KTLnoone is suspected to have a secret porn stash on it also
16:10.13bradheh
16:11.37KTLis there any trick to really get rid of the teleporter on mesh bug? (the "cant drive through issue") ... /me thinks about putting putting 2 porters on the same spot, the incoming porter elevated ... the other one lower ... very hackish
16:14.41trepanor wait for 3.0  ;)
16:14.45KTLwill try a /- shaped platform without an inside point beneath 1 elevated porter
16:15.06KTLi would have a white beard before 3.0 comes out
16:15.40cygalthen help us :)
16:15.42BulletCatcherKTL, are you running a 32-bit Lunix client?
16:15.47KTL64 bit
16:15.50KTLdebian
16:16.17KTLBZFlag client 2.0.13.20080902-DEVEL-linux-gnu-SDL (protocol 0026)
16:16.29BulletCatcherOkay.  I have been working on a teleporter problem that only affects 32-bit clients.
16:16.57KTLi also see that i cant actually solve the problem
16:17.00KTLfor myself
16:17.04trepanBulletCatcher: problem still exists in 2.99.x code?
16:17.05KTLbut many other players still get stuck
16:18.06BulletCatchertrepan: Yes.  I have isolated it to a fairly small section of trunk code, but don't have a fix other than compiling with -O1 instead of -O2.
16:18.09KTLs/cant/can/
16:18.37BulletCatcherAt this point I cannot rule out a compiler optimization bug.
16:21.33trepanhow to reproduce the bug?  (i might try an -m32)
16:21.40*** join/#bzflag Wits_ (n=Wits@248.119.33.65.cfl.res.rr.com)
16:22.05BulletCatcherI test with the teleporter in the LaserMania map.
16:23.34*** join/#bzflag JefferyM (n=JefferyM@bzflag/projectadmin/JeffM)
16:23.34*** mode/#bzflag [+o JefferyM] by ChanServ
16:24.28KTLeuh my teleporter bug: just put a tele on a mesh
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16:33.40KTLow .... there is no inside point needed to trigger my bug
16:33.52KTLjust a non drivethrough face is enough
16:36.56trepantele vs. mesh is a well known 2.x bug
16:37.11trepansome have circumvented it by placing a thin box under the tele
16:37.12KTLand solved in 3.0?
16:37.19KTLyes thats me
16:37.26KTLbut it doesnt work for half of the players
16:37.43trepansolved, saved for whatever BulletCatcher's issue is
16:38.06trepan(which, now that I've had a little more coffee, i remember being fixed when said 'thin box' was removed)
16:38.24BulletCatcherYes, we discussed that a couple of weeks ago.
16:38.33BulletCatcherHooray for coffee.
16:38.52KTLso for me it is either boxes or waiting till 3.0?
16:39.00trepanyup
16:39.00JefferyMpretty much
16:40.02KTLjumps on his bike to shoot some arrows, bye
16:40.28JefferyMat the same time?
16:42.27ahs3-http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=14216&sid=fbd39d8bdc8f327f8bf3fbda564e62cf&p=139654#p139654
16:42.41ahs3-final reply to that post is a spammer
16:42.58JefferyMjopy
16:43.11temp_workI use a chanel handbag all the time when playing BZflag
16:43.17ahs3-lol
16:43.28JefferyMawww someone else is too fast for me
16:44.01BulletCatcherprefers a Christian Dior handbag when playing BZFlag
16:46.07cygal:D
16:50.19joevanoJefferyM: sorry to take your fun ;)
16:50.26JefferyMit's ok
16:50.27spldartAnd his thunder
16:50.30JefferyMyou ban them too right?
16:50.33JefferyMor just delete?
16:51.02joevanooh yeah, it was another one from China
16:51.11JefferyMcool
16:52.48joevanoi banned the entire Guangdong provive it seems
16:52.55joevanoprovince*
16:53.01JefferyMwhoot
16:53.11JefferyMour kung fu is better!
16:53.18joevanohehe
17:05.06*** join/#bzflag tobylane (n=tobylane@host86-144-223-129.range86-144.btcentralplus.com)
17:05.25*** join/#bzflag Yassen (n=chatzill@c-24-16-60-208.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
17:05.29tobylaneis temp_work temporal distraction?
17:05.36temp_workyes
17:06.04tobylanei think im accidently banned, someone else called tocca's ban is covering me
17:06.17temp_workpm
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17:37.36*** mode/#bzflag [+v Erroneous] by ChanServ
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17:50.34*** mode/#bzflag [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ
17:54.47steerpikehey tim :)
17:57.07brlcadts: got your message, thx
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18:28.13me1~bzflist
18:29.41TD-LinuxI might have to integrate some of trepan's new features into boxywar :D
18:33.10CIA-62BZFlag: 03trepan * r20022 10/trunk/bzflag/ (14 files in 8 dirs):
18:33.10CIA-62BZFlag: * bumped protocol and rev
18:33.10CIA-62BZFlag: * added BZDB control to PhysicsDrivers and TextureMatrices
18:33.14trepanthose ones?  :)
18:35.06trepanhm, i see that src/other/curl/m4/libtool.m4 got committed with updates
18:35.12trepanis that supposed to be in SVN ?
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18:37.08TD-Linuxtrepan, JefferyM asked me a while ago to get BoxyWar GPL'd and added as a demo map
18:37.33TD-Linuxthere are a bunch of things that I want to fix, and I was also thinking of adding some bzflag 3 features
18:37.51trepanmay have to make a demo map, that shows a little more of what (limited) capabilities bz has
18:38.03TD-Linuxless limited than before :P
18:38.16trepanless limited than BoxyWar  :P
18:38.31TD-Linuxanyway, what would be my best reference for the new features you've added?
18:38.37trepanbzw.man
18:38.40TD-LinuxOK
18:38.52TD-Linuxanything you can think of that I should look into first?
18:38.55trepans/.man/.5/
18:39.09trepanTD-Linux: find stuff, play with it
18:39.58trepanoops, committed a crappy phydrv 'radial' implementation
18:40.07trepanshould probably just remove that keyword completely
18:40.45TD-Linuxtrepan, the animation sequence stuff you showed earlier... is that commited?
18:41.19trepannope, probably wont be
18:41.24trepanisn't on my short list
18:41.58TD-Linuxhow was the parabolic shot done?
18:42.08trepanface links
18:42.09TD-Linux... I could just download the map :P
18:42.17TD-Linuxtrepan, teleporters?
18:42.21trepanyup
18:43.28TD-Linuxawesome, link blocks
18:43.47TD-Linuxooh also I can make a link that launches tanks?
18:45.15TD-Linux<3 text objects
18:45.32trepanthe face links can do a lot of new things
18:45.58TD-Linuxlooks like adjust velocities of tanks, display messages
18:46.42trepanand be selective by team, flag, speed, incident angle  (with separate controls for shots and tanks)
18:47.01trepanand can be enabled/disable via BZDB variables
18:47.09TD-Linuxit would be interesting to make the 1-way faces impassible only for members not on the same team
18:47.22trepanthat's done
18:47.29cygal20:35 <+trepan> hm, i see that src/other/curl/m4/libtool.m4 got committed with updates
18:47.29TD-Linuxyeah I see the feature
18:47.39cygalI guess not, I had a few problems with this
18:48.03cygalappeared in svn diff. most of the times I try to svn ci the good files, but I may have made a mistake
18:48.04TD-Linuxtrepan, OH NO
18:48.06TD-Linux\*
18:48.14trepanhuh?
18:48.23TD-Linuxbzflag is the new netscape
18:48.34trepanmake sense
18:48.38TD-Linuxyou've added a blink tag!
18:49.04trepanblink has been there for quite some time
18:49.15TD-Linuxshows how much I've been paying attention :/
18:49.31TD-Linuxcan normal meshes be billboarded?
18:49.37trepanno
18:49.53trepanhad that in another patch, years ago  ;-)
18:49.57*** join/#bzflag Will07c5 (n=william@c-67-173-127-196.hsd1.il.comcast.net)
18:50.07trepancygal: so are you having build problems with the new version ?
18:50.40cygalnew version of? no, I only noticed that when I build, this file gets changed
18:52.12TD-LinuxI should make some spheremapped objects for once
18:52.18TD-LinuxI've never seen anyone do it properly
18:52.39jcpAre slash commands sent to the server as chat messages or are they put in their own custom packet?
18:53.00trepanthat's probably because  1) bz'ers don't understand it  2) those that do realize it's a hackish texmapping style
18:53.46TD-Linuxtrepan, it's spheremapped for reflections right?
18:54.06TD-Linuxnot that I know of other things called "spheremaps"
18:54.56TD-Linuxcould make some shiny gold spinning coins
18:56.00Yassenjcp, They are sent as regular chat messages.
18:56.20jcpAwesome, ty
18:56.28ophag~bzflist
18:56.41cygalwell, there is also MsgSetVar
18:56.50blast007jcp: some of them don't get sent all all, like /localset and /bind, and are handled directly by the client
18:56.53blast007at all*
18:57.08jcp<PROTECTED>
18:57.08TD-Linuxboxywar needs a theme
18:57.10jcphasn't heard of it
18:57.17blast007to bind keys
18:57.21jcpoh, oik
18:57.23jcp*ok
18:57.33jcpbut yeah, was referring primarily to those that do get sent
18:58.07randomparticleglobal again..
18:58.29Yassencygal, I think that is for the server to send to the clients to notify of a /set
18:58.57cygalok
18:59.00trepanjcp: try  /cmds
18:59.03cygaloh, new sf theme
18:59.15trepanit separates them into client-side and server-side command lists
19:02.04javawizard2539Is anyone else having trouble with global auth?
19:03.04javawizard2539Hmm, it looks like it. There's a bunch of minus signs at bzexcess.com
19:08.01*** join/#bzflag dexter- (n=Adium@bzflag/player/Dexter)
19:08.09dexter-~bzflist
19:09.41blast007dexter-: yes, it's down
19:10.10dexter-cool
19:13.03randomparticleis global being fixed?
19:13.21randomparticlepermanently, i mean
19:14.12joevanorandomparticle: everything fails
19:14.22randomparticleyeah, but not every day :)
19:14.59JefferyMrandomparticle, yes we actualy have a student being paid to build us a new login system
19:15.10JefferyMover 10,000$ is being spent on it
19:15.56JefferyMthe proof of concept is done this summer the implementation is being done
19:16.22JefferyMthen it'l be nice and distributed :)
19:16.35dexter-wow
19:16.39dexter-where's the money coming from?
19:16.46JefferyMgoogle is paying the bill
19:16.50JefferyMthankfully
19:16.58cygalcool, less clicks are needed to download bzflag now http://sourceforge.net/projects/bzflag/
19:16.58dexter-hehe
19:17.21JefferyMoh my god!
19:17.29JefferyMI almost wish for the orange now
19:18.44JefferyMwe've done what we can short of rewriting the php based list server to make it better. The core problem is that sql  and apache on the machine just keep getting nailled
19:18.49joevanoJefferyM: you and me both
19:18.55JefferyMso we are working on moving away from http to ldap
19:19.07JefferyMto allow it to be distributed over multiple machines better
19:19.50randomparticledidn't you say that in 2006? :)
19:19.55JefferyMyeah
19:20.01JefferyMand the work is still going
19:20.20JefferyMthat's when it was just an idea
19:20.29JefferyMnow it's been throuhg a proof of concept
19:20.32JefferyMand that has worked
19:20.36CIA-62BZFlag: 03Me1 07http://my.bzflag.org * r6135 10/w/BZFlag_on_IRC: /* Other projects and unofficial channels */
19:21.02randomparticlei was thinking how i would implement global login using RSA authentication
19:21.08*** join/#bzflag ep (n=quassel@ip68-97-126-55.ok.ok.cox.net)
19:21.09JefferyMI'm sure you were
19:21.21randomparticleyou could distribute keys to local servers
19:21.32randomparticleif the central server went down, people could still log in
19:21.36JefferyMthere are lots of ways we could do it
19:21.47JefferyMldap is the simplest to integrate with our other web services
19:21.55blast007randomparticle: why not just have multiple servers?
19:22.22randomparticleyou can have both :)
19:22.24JefferyMyou could do keys with multiple servers
19:22.42JefferyMand actualy we could have the game <-> server do some rsa stuff if we cared to
19:22.48randomparticlei'm thinking trusted key servers with local servers grabbing the keys
19:22.49JefferyMldap is just the backend
19:22.54randomparticleand maybe expiry dates on the keys
19:23.11JefferyMit all depends on what you are trying to do
19:23.18JefferyMverify servers or verify clients?
19:23.49randomparticleverify log in credentials for playing
19:23.57JefferyMand if you are looking to do offline verification
19:24.17JefferyMit all comes down to who you trust
19:24.21randomparticleyeah
19:24.28JefferyMhow you verify that trust is somewhat trivial
19:24.52JefferyMkeys and signatures are best used when you loose controll of the data for part of the pipeline
19:25.24JefferyMbut that's not to say they can not work for what we do
19:25.33JefferyMour current goal is to get the backend more stable
19:25.33randomparticlewell, it gets around the problem of giving your password away
19:25.39JefferyMsure
19:25.55JefferyMif you don't trust the connection that you are sending it out on
19:26.04JefferyMthat's the last of our problems right now :0
19:26.05JefferyM:)
19:26.16randomparticlereduces the burden on central servers too
19:26.25randomparticlebecause local servers can cache the keys
19:26.33JefferyMno mater what you can't have a single point of failure
19:26.51randomparticleyep
19:26.51JefferyMregardless of how much traffic it can hold
19:27.02dexter-JefferyM: what is causing the excessive global problems atm?
19:27.15JefferyMdexter-, the web server that it's on ether getting hit, or doing other thigns
19:27.26JefferyMit dosn't go down, it just gets bogged down
19:27.31dexter-aha
19:27.46JefferyMand we can't move the list server to another machine because it's tied into phpbb
19:27.56JefferyMso that's why we want to get the backend using something that can be spread out
19:28.26JefferyMthen we can get it working on better machiens that don't have to do EVERYTHING
19:28.50JefferyMthen we can look into multiple auth servers, and better ways to do the game <-> auth checks for new clients
19:29.09JefferyMcus no mater what we have to support the existing list server for a long while for old clients
19:30.35blast007points out the fact that we still support the 1.7 server list ;)
19:30.40JefferyMindeed
19:31.02JefferyMthe inital global auth sysem wasn't implemented in a very scaleable way
19:31.06randomparticlein my imaginary scheme the user enters their password and username as usual. at some point their client downloads a private key
19:31.07JefferyMmuch like most of bzflag
19:31.16randomparticlethe servers obtain public keys from the key servers
19:31.34JefferyMsure then you can crypto some data and have a level of trust to the client
19:31.46JefferyMthe server would still have to ask the auth system for group membership
19:31.54JefferyMso there would still be a hit there.
19:32.03JefferyMbut you could cache local groups based on bzid
19:32.15JefferyMand you'd have a crypto channel to the client, for whatever good that does you.
19:32.52JefferyMit could also allow for integrated local auth
19:32.58blast007randomparticle: what benefit is there for using an RSA key pair instead of a token?
19:33.26JefferyMblast007, you get a crypto channel that can send data over
19:33.33JefferyMhelp prevent man in the middle stuff
19:33.43JefferyMnot that it's a big thing, but that is one advantage
19:33.59blast007I see that as a problem for the username and password, not joining the server
19:37.24JefferyMit does give you a kind of "session" thing, since people on the same machien would often be using the same key.
19:37.34JefferyMbut I don't think it solves any of our current major problems
19:37.57JefferyMyou'd save a hit by the client to get a key sometimes
19:38.19JefferyMbut then the client would still hit the list server to get a list of games
19:38.32JefferyMand the game server would have to hit the list server to get groups and update stats
19:39.00JefferyMit would allow for offline auth based on cached keys, but that would be dependent on a lot of thigns.
19:40.24JefferyMif we had data that we didn't want people in the middle of the client <-> gameserver channel to see, the crypto would benift there, but I don't really know what data we have that we care to hide like that
19:40.55JefferyMit's a great system for a MMO, or a web browser
19:41.35randomparticlewell, it's about verifying identities
19:41.45randomparticlethink of it as a signing mechanism
19:41.52randomparticlethat's how i envisaged it
19:41.53JefferyMyes
19:42.04JefferyMyou could sign data and know that noone else muddled with it
19:42.10JefferyMthat's the crypto channel
19:42.21JefferyMthat's not our problem right now
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19:43.55*** part/#bzflag dexter- (n=Adium@bzflag/player/Dexter)
19:43.55JefferyMthe token system we have allows verifiction on a per connection basis, a key system could be extend over multiple connections.
19:44.41JefferyMI'm not sure if we could totaly elimnate some of the server hits by using that abbility because of the other dat we need from the list servers
19:44.57randomparticleths token system..
19:45.20randomparticlethe client gets their token and the server asks for one for them too?
19:45.26JefferyMno
19:45.34JefferyMclient gets a token when they list the games
19:45.38randomparticleok
19:45.45JefferyMclient conents to a game server, sends token
19:45.53randomparticleok
19:46.01randomparticleand the servers sends that to global?
19:46.04randomparticle*server
19:46.07JefferyMgame server contacts list server to update player counts, and says "hey I got this token for this guy at this IP
19:46.10JefferyMlet me finish ;)
19:46.16randomparticleok, sorry
19:46.17JefferyMlist server says "yes or no"
19:46.25randomparticleok
19:46.42JefferyMthe game server can also ask if the user is in N named groups at the same time
19:47.03JefferyMso it works in a similar manner, except it dosn't give that secure channel to hide data
19:47.07randomparticlewhy not send the user name and ip?
19:47.20randomparticlei don't understand the advantage of the token
19:47.22JefferyMwe do, and the token
19:47.40JefferyMcouple things
19:47.41randomparticleso what's the token offering in addition to the user name and ip?
19:48.01JefferyMadds onther layer of security
19:48.09JefferyMmakes sure that the client actaly hit the list
19:48.16JefferyMbut yeah you could probalby do it with just the IP
19:48.20JefferyMunless routes get wierd
19:48.36JefferyMdunno if it's possible that the list server could have seen a different IP then the game server
19:48.40JefferyMit's a dual layer system
19:49.08JefferyMit's also an easy way for the game server to know that the user is NOT verified, when they send a null token
19:49.36CIA-62BZFlag: 03Mets 07http://my.bzflag.org * r6363 10/w/BZtank: /* Community */
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19:50.10randomparticlei will think about this a bit later
19:50.13randomparticleit's interesting
19:50.14JefferyMok
19:50.24JefferyMI don't disagree that a key system could also be used
19:50.41randomparticlenot the sort of area where one wants to come to immediate conclusions. security is tricky :)
19:50.42JefferyMjust that the current list problems are not caused by the token system
19:50.50JefferyMit's not security
19:50.51randomparticleyeah
19:50.55JefferyMwe arn't trying to secure any data
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19:51.02JefferyMwe just want a login system
19:51.04CIA-62BZFlag: 03DonnyBaker 07http://my.bzflag.org * r0 10/w/Special:Log/import: imported [[Template:Documentation]] by file upload: 1 revision(s)
19:51.09CIA-62BZFlag: 03DonnyBaker 07http://my.bzflag.org * r0 10/w/Special:Log/import: imported [[Template:Documentation/docname]] by file upload: 1 revision(s)
19:51.16JefferyMand a trusted login server will handle the security part that we care about
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19:51.39JefferyMmore secure system only really prevent man in the middle stuff, for some cases, and that's not a big issue at the momment.
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19:52.08randomparticlewhat i had in mind wasn't so much that, but being able to verify things locally using expirable keys
19:52.18randomparticleif thigns went offline, you could use the last known good keys
19:52.20JefferyMwhat did you want to verify?
19:52.25randomparticleidentity
19:52.27JefferyMyes the offline aspect is an advantage
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19:52.54JefferyMidentity is not a thing, you are just alking about sending some known data over a signed or cryptoed channel to verify that they have the right key
19:53.00randomparticlethere is a local login possibility atm, but it's insecure
19:53.07randomparticlebecause you have to give away your password
19:53.08JefferyMindeed
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19:53.15JefferyMwell that was removed from 3.0.x
19:53.42JefferyMI'd rather just make it so global dosn't go down
19:54.10JefferyMyou can't do a totaly local login system in your method ether, your keys still come from a global source
19:54.22JefferyMyou just do better at smothing over hickups for players that play a lot
19:54.26randomparticleyes
19:54.35JefferyMbut I'd be worried about what would happen if say I got blast's key
19:54.44JefferyMand hooked it into my client
19:54.49JefferyMthen you'd think I was blast
19:54.54randomparticlewould be like stealing his password atm
19:54.58JefferyMyeah
19:55.23JefferyMbut you'd require that key to be stored
19:55.32JefferyMotherwise you loose that offline ability
19:55.35randomparticlejust like the password is :)
19:55.39JefferyMit's not required
19:55.50JefferyMyour system gets the most benifit from stored keys
19:55.55randomparticleyes
19:56.02CIA-62BZFlag: 03Mets 07http://my.bzflag.org * r6384 10/w/BZtank: /* Admin Staff */ added XLR8
19:56.12JefferyMif you don't store keys, it has no real advantage over the existing system
19:56.18JefferyMit's just something to consider
19:56.21randomparticleindeed
19:56.53JefferyMbeing able to store cross session data isn't a bad idea, but that is also possible on the server side right now
19:57.05JefferyMthen you could just put people back where they were on a rejoin
19:57.12randomparticlethat would be good
19:57.21JefferyMyou can do that with BZID now
19:57.38randomparticlei'll mention this to the admins
19:57.53JefferyMwell you'd have to write code to use it of course
19:57.53randomparticlebecause quite often what happens: we're on a server chatting and arranging a match
19:57.59JefferyMbut bzid could be they key you use
19:58.04randomparticleand then global goes down/slows when we want to start the match
19:58.24JefferyMyeah we need to have more then one auth server
19:58.45JefferyMit's now kind of mission critical to how we expect people to play
19:58.55JefferyMit's just all part of moving from a lan game to an internet game
19:59.06JefferyMright now it's a lan game with some hacks internet usability
19:59.19randomparticleyeah
19:59.21JefferyMoptimaly we'd do it MMO style
19:59.39JefferyMfirst thing you do is login/register, then see what you have access to etc..
19:59.45*** join/#bzflag hobbsc (n=hobbsc@li25-128.members.linode.com)
19:59.47JefferyMlist all your callsigns like characers :)
20:00.59randomparticlejust wondering.. these bz windows on windows are slightly unusual
20:01.11randomparticlein that they don't have minimize/close buttons
20:01.17JefferyM<PROTECTED>
20:01.25randomparticleand if i click on firefox, say, the bzflag windows minimizes
20:01.30JefferyMyep
20:01.40randomparticleis there a technical reason for that?
20:01.43JefferyMnope
20:01.47randomparticleah, ok]
20:01.50JefferyMyou can turn that off
20:01.58JefferyMwin32noMin or something
20:02.00randomparticleoh, really? how, please?
20:02.00JefferyMin your config
20:02.35randomparticletrying now..
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20:03.30randomparticlehmm.. not "set win32noMin 1"?
20:04.05randomparticleoh wait
20:04.09randomparticleN in no maybe
20:04.15JefferyMI don't remember the exact name off the top of my head
20:04.33JefferyMit was added mostly to help with debuging on windows
20:04.52JefferyMWin32NoMin is the item
20:04.56JefferyMand 1 should be fine
20:05.06JefferyMit just calls BZDB.isTrue
20:05.25randomparticleworks. cool :)
20:05.45randomparticleoh wait..
20:06.02randomparticlenow it doesn't minimize at all lol (should be obvious from the name i guess)
20:06.12JefferyMyep
20:06.40randomparticlecuriously, mirc has some of that same behaviour
20:06.53randomparticleclicking another app can minimize parts of mirc
20:07.12JefferyMit's up to each app what they want to do on activate or deactivate
20:08.39randomparticlehmm.. i'm thinking of getting visual studio 2008. would i be wasting my money buying it now?
20:08.40*** join/#bzflag LongDon (n=LongDon@dyndsl-091-096-001-190.ewe-ip-backbone.de)
20:08.46randomparticlevisual studio 2010 is around the corner i think
20:08.50JefferyMyou can get it for free
20:08.58JefferyMthe EE versions are free
20:08.59randomparticlethe express version yes
20:09.08JefferyMwhat do you need that it dosn't have?
20:09.14randomparticlea few things
20:09.26JefferyMlike?
20:09.30randomparticleMFC
20:09.36JefferyMnoone needs mfc :)
20:09.38randomparticlenot a bzflag issue, of course
20:09.48JefferyMuse .net instead
20:09.49randomparticleyeah, but we got some old stuff here
20:10.06randomparticlewould gladly avoid it but not my choice
20:10.06JefferyMwhat are you using now?
20:10.31randomparticleexpress edition and on the other machine (not mine) vs 2005
20:11.27randomparticlealso, 64-bit switches aren't available in the express editions
20:11.28JefferyMguess it really depends on how soon you need what, and how comfortable you are doing production work on a new compiler
20:11.37randomparticleyou can do it, but it's not straightforward
20:11.50randomparticleyeah
20:11.58randomparticleit's not life-critical all this
20:12.26randomparticlemore of a hobby really than anything else and some occasional voluntary stuff for other people
20:12.39JefferyMwe won't be switching to vc10 when it comes out
20:13.54randomparticleare there any activation nasties i should be aware of. e.g., fs-x on allowed two activations *ever*
20:13.59randomparticle*only
20:14.05JefferyMvc isn't activated
20:14.09randomparticleah, ok
20:14.13JefferyMit's licensed per developer not per machine
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20:14.38JefferyMif you buy it, you can install it on any machine tht you use to develop
20:14.47randomparticlesounds enlightened
20:14.53JefferyMno, just sensible
20:15.02JefferyMdeveloprs use lots of differnet hardware
20:15.05JefferyMand take work home etc..
20:15.16JefferyMbassicly each PERSON that uses vc needs a license, not each machine
20:22.46jorgenptJefferyM: FlashFXP has a license that's either per-person _or_ per-machine (you decide).
20:22.54JefferyMcool
20:23.05jorgenptI'm not really sure how they enforce it, since it seems to be at the users discretion.
20:23.54JefferyMfor VC it kinda makes sens per person, cus you have to know how to program to use it. it's not like it's usefull to just anyone
20:24.07JefferyMand with the free versions for people that just want to play it's all cool
20:24.40randomparticleyeah
20:25.16*** part/#bzflag LongDon (n=LongDon@dyndsl-091-096-001-190.ewe-ip-backbone.de)
20:25.32randomparticlei live in fear of losing my remaining adobe cs activation
20:25.45randomparticlei lost one because i accidentally deleted some files i shouldn't have
20:26.34randomparticlei phoned adobe and they were polite but not helpful
20:27.34JefferyMthey generaly have no problem adding activations for us when we call them
20:28.33randomparticlethey told me it was technically impossible :)
20:28.57randomparticleif you had a disk crash or whatever, they couldn't give you back a lost activation
20:29.02randomparticleperhaps i spoke to the wrong person
20:31.12JefferyMthey should be able to
20:31.16randomparticleyeah
20:31.39randomparticlenot really having a blast at them. adobe have been quite friendly and efficient in the past
20:32.06randomparticlewhen i ordered cs3, for example, a couple of days before, it arrived on the release day
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22:09.04JefferyMblast007, you arround?
22:09.34KingRobotJefferyM! :)
22:09.38KingRobotJefferyM: bzrobots is working on Windows.
22:09.41JefferyMcool
22:10.59KingRobotFrom this point out, I plan to clean up some of the bugs, then make a list of API enhancements that need to be done, and we'll decide which of those I should work on.
22:11.18JefferyMsounds like a plan
22:11.45KingRobotWhere is the speed and turn rate limited in the client?
22:11.54KingRobotThe bots are moving too fast.
22:12.50KingRobot(I assume that it's a client-side thing, not a server-side thing)
22:13.02JefferyMthere is a place where we take input and turn it into actual movement
22:13.06JefferyMdunno where it is
22:13.12KingRobotAlright, I'll look for it.
22:13.18JefferyMbut look for where the bzdb cached filed for speed is used
22:13.33KingRobotAlso, it's turning up a lot of bugs in the server.
22:13.38JefferyMlike?
22:13.53KingRobotI've had the server segfault several times
22:14.06KingRobotAnd sometimes it sends the team color back wrong.
22:14.07JefferyMit's possbile bots arn't sending good net data
22:14.44KingRobotAlright, I'll double-check all the net code that is not shared.
22:14.59KingRobotIsn't that something we'd want to address?
22:15.05JefferyMyeah
22:15.19JefferyMbut before we look at the server, make sure the client is sending good data
22:15.32JefferyMwe do know there are ways to crash the server with malformed packets
22:15.33KingRobotOk
22:15.41JefferyMit's more of a general problem
22:15.59JefferyM3.0 does more checking then 2.x but it's still not perfect
22:16.34KingRobotI can reproduce all kinds of stuff if I join bzrobots before a normal client.
22:16.41KingRobotFor some reason that triggers a lot of things.
22:17.11KingRobotWell, sounds like a plan.
22:18.03spldartCan anyone help me with win32 debug build errors. I get a bunch of C1083 fatal errors mentione PlayerAvatarManager.h 's. I have this problem on 2 existing machines that used to build fine a month or two ago, One XP and one 7 ultimate, and new install of 7 ultimate RC that I believe I have set up correctly using the appropriate readme's in the source code.
22:18.24KingRobotJefferyM: Do you want me to make a clean end-user project for bot development?
22:18.55JefferyMnot right now
22:19.07JefferyMthat can be done at the very end
22:19.14JefferyMso it can use all your changes
22:19.22KingRobotThat makes sense.
22:19.24JefferyMI don't think there are people clamoring to make bots right now
22:30.46*** join/#bzflag temp_dist (n=pidgin@bzflag/serverop/TemporalDistraction)
22:34.39*** join/#bzflag Swigg (n=Default@97.95.230.165)
22:37.02*** join/#bzflag KingRobot (n=mathew@unaffiliated/kingrobot)
22:41.16JefferyMwhat's the URL for web IRC?
22:41.47bradhttp://my.bzflag.org/irc/ <- b0rked
22:42.19JefferyMno just turned off ;)
22:43.07bradsame result
22:43.26*** join/#bzflag PrezKennedy (i=Matthew@whitecalf.net)
22:43.30JefferyMprobably got abbused
22:43.57brad<PROTECTED>
22:44.27JefferyMI just need one for my phone :)
22:45.12Metsoo irc on a phone
22:45.50Metsactually, you can run putty on windows mobile, which would imply that if you have irssi installed, you could run that
22:45.52*** join/#bzflag Jeffm (i=4b105ade@bzflag/projectadmin/JeffM)
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22:47.09MetsI used putty+windows mobile to run a verilog simulation once just to see if it worked
22:47.12JeffmNo win mobile
22:47.51JeffmIt's not bad in landscape
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22:48.29Metsyeah windows mobile is not so great lol...
22:48.32JefferyMbut it ain't great
22:50.47Metsmaybe this: http://jmirc.sourceforge.net/ - it's a J2ME midlet
22:53.24JefferyMthe phone isn't J2ME ether
22:54.49*** join/#bzflag ep (n=quassel@ip68-97-126-55.ok.ok.cox.net)
22:58.41*** join/#bzflag Mets|Mobile (n=Mets|Mob@32.167.238.23)
23:02.08*** join/#bzflag short_circuit (n=spldart2@98.197.19.35)
23:02.25short_circuitBad storm.. lost power
23:02.52*** mode/#bzflag [+v spldart] by ChanServ
23:05.24*** join/#bzflag blast (i=4cc99596@bzflag/developer/Blast)
23:05.24*** mode/#bzflag [+v blast] by ChanServ
23:05.37*** join/#bzflag bryjen (n=bryjen@75.81.208.170)
23:05.37*** mode/#bzflag [+v bryjen] by ChanServ
23:07.23bryjenibot: bzflist
23:08.58blastbit slow. about 16 seconds to load the list server in the browser
23:09.49Metsyeah listserv has seen better days
23:16.19*** part/#bzflag blast (i=4cc99596@bzflag/developer/Blast)
23:25.35Think_DifferentlI've used JMIRC
23:25.48joevanoi thank trepan that it is even up.. disk is still at over 99% full
23:38.14MetsThink_Differentl: yeah I just got it up and working, it's surprisingly good, even supports mIRC colors.  Not sure what it does to batterythough
23:39.39*** join/#bzflag Mets|Mobile (n=Mets|Mob@32.167.210.58)
23:39.59Mets|Mobilehello bzflag from my phone :)
23:40.15*** join/#bzflag CBG (n=CBG@about/essy/fan/CBG)
23:45.04TD-LinuxMets, what do you use for verilog simulation
23:45.06TD-Linux?
23:45.27MetsTD-Linux: cadence
23:45.42Metswait you mean on the phone or on workstation?
23:45.50TD-Linuxworkstation of course :P
23:45.57Metsoh, :)
23:46.11TD-LinuxOK, someone was wondering about Icarus
23:46.19TD-LinuxI never used Icarus myself, usually modelsim
23:47.05Metsicarus is free I think, right?
23:47.14*** join/#bzflag a_meteorite (n=a_meteor@unaffiliated/ameteorite/x-000000001)
23:48.33MetsI've seen it, don't know how it compares to something like cadence.  I know modelsim is great for vhdl

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