| 00:00.13 | res|laptop | would have to be done before "draw()" is called |
| 00:00.22 | JefferyM | yeah the app should not care about that |
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| 00:00.28 | res|laptop | an object would have to have to report it's material |
| 00:00.31 | JefferyM | the scene should take care of it |
| 00:00.37 | JefferyM | res|laptop, it may have multiples |
| 00:00.45 | JefferyM | just listen for a bit |
| 00:00.53 | JefferyM | you have a thing that is a scene manager right? |
| 00:01.03 | JefferyM | it has all the stuff that could be drawn |
| 00:01.15 | JefferyM | you have your gamestate/world update the stuff in it that moves |
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| 00:01.26 | JefferyM | and you have something set up any hud/menu changes |
| 00:01.32 | JefferyM | then you tell that entire thing to draw |
| 00:01.45 | JefferyM | it goes thru all it's internal entieies and calls there own drawing code |
| 00:01.56 | JefferyM | those things define the geometry and materials they need |
| 00:02.03 | JefferyM | and are sorted by the scene |
| 00:02.09 | JefferyM | then the sceene draws it all in the right order |
| 00:02.23 | JefferyM | background -> world + shots + tanks -> 2d overlay |
| 00:02.35 | JefferyM | then the main app has no drawing code |
| 00:02.38 | JefferyM | at all |
| 00:02.48 | JefferyM | it could be happy just maintaining it's own state headless |
| 00:02.58 | JefferyM | this is how most of our rendering is done now |
| 00:03.05 | JefferyM | for world + shots + tanks |
| 00:03.36 | JefferyM | the goal would be to extend that to include the rest of the sceene and abstract things like the background, and hud |
| 00:03.45 | res|laptop | okay |
| 00:04.00 | JefferyM | the menu system is already decently abstracted, so having it just move it's drawing code into a scene manager is fine |
| 00:04.05 | res|laptop | well, you could add some kind of "layers" |
| 00:04.11 | JefferyM | why? |
| 00:04.22 | res|laptop | just to control some rendering order |
| 00:04.38 | JefferyM | that's the scene managers job |
| 00:04.41 | res|laptop | background would be, well, in a background layer that'd be drawn first |
| 00:04.53 | JefferyM | it dosn't need to be super generic ;) |
| 00:04.56 | trepan | OpenGLGState::setOrder(), craziness |
| 00:04.58 | JefferyM | it's a silly tank came |
| 00:05.09 | JefferyM | yeah, we have a lot of state and sorting code already |
| 00:05.18 | JefferyM | no need to add more arbitrary things |
| 00:05.27 | JefferyM | really it's just a 3 step system |
| 00:05.35 | JefferyM | background, world, overlay |
| 00:05.38 | res|laptop | I work on a "real" 3D engine. I tend to generalize a lot >.> |
| 00:05.50 | JefferyM | and what "real" 3d engine woudl that be? |
| 00:05.54 | res|laptop | Crystal Space |
| 00:06.09 | JefferyM | yeah.. tell them that Z is up, then we'll call it "real" |
| 00:06.14 | res|laptop | lol |
| 00:06.17 | JefferyM | but now I see why you like bloat ;) |
| 00:06.28 | res|laptop | I like generic :P |
| 00:06.31 | JefferyM | for this project, getting sidetracked is a big problem |
| 00:06.48 | JefferyM | if we wanted to make it totaly generic the project woudl be "make bzflag use ogre" |
| 00:06.58 | JefferyM | not just clean up the gl code into something a little more managable |
| 00:07.13 | trepan | that might be a fork though; irix, etc... |
| 00:07.29 | JefferyM | ogre supports the ones we care about |
| 00:07.33 | trepan | anyone actually tried compiling on the odd-ball OSes lately? |
| 00:07.36 | JefferyM | even irix ( modern ones at least) |
| 00:07.47 | trepan | "the ones we care about" = "the ones Jeff cares about" ? |
| 00:07.50 | JefferyM | but yes we'd desuport some people for sure |
| 00:08.01 | JefferyM | trepan, no I asked the ogre guy, it was more then the ones I cared about |
| 00:08.09 | JefferyM | yeah we may loose support for BeOS |
| 00:08.33 | JefferyM | but IRIX and Solaris are suposed to be buildable with ogre |
| 00:08.39 | JefferyM | just not on the older tools we build on now |
| 00:08.49 | JefferyM | so we all figured it would be acceptable |
| 00:08.50 | trepan | heh, their listed OSes are "Windows (all major versions), Linux and Mac OSX support" |
| 00:08.57 | JefferyM | yeah that's why we asked them |
| 00:09.03 | JefferyM | they have an SDL based implementation |
| 00:09.10 | JefferyM | and people have used that on other OSs |
| 00:09.16 | trepan | and "supposed to be buildable" is a far cry from tested |
| 00:09.18 | JefferyM | they just mostly test on those, so that's all they say |
| 00:09.27 | JefferyM | dude, we don't test on IRIX |
| 00:09.31 | JefferyM | so it's just as good as our code |
| 00:09.35 | JefferyM | "it may build, try it" |
| 00:09.44 | brlcad | they provide commercial support, that's them saying they only provide support for those |
| 00:09.50 | trepan | hints at dropping support for those 6 players ;-) |
| 00:09.58 | brlcad | there is a list somewhere of the other reported platforms where it works |
| 00:10.05 | JefferyM | yeah if they could not get it to build, I would not cry |
| 00:10.05 | trepan | 5, i heard one of them switched to the HURD |
| 00:10.09 | brlcad | and they happily patch anything not working |
| 00:10.09 | JefferyM | heh |
| 00:10.17 | JefferyM | yeah they try and that was good enough for us |
| 00:10.34 | JefferyM | cus it's the same that we do, if you find a way to make it work, cool we'll accept the patch |
| 00:10.58 | JefferyM | if we could get away with just the big 3, I'd go with lightfeather |
| 00:11.02 | res|laptop | from your description it kind of sounds that the overall design (scene manager, nodes etc) is already okay ... so what's left is shifting around code so the app/scene manager seperation is done nicely or do I grossly misunderstand things? |
| 00:11.41 | JefferyM | res|laptop, mostly it's just getting the scene system to do all the drawing, the current scenenode/rendernode split is prety good |
| 00:11.46 | JefferyM | but it only does stuff in the world |
| 00:12.02 | JefferyM | it's the stuff it dosnt' do that's the kicker |
| 00:12.11 | JefferyM | like effects, they arn't in the node |
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| 00:12.19 | JefferyM | well effects that arn't explode |
| 00:12.30 | JefferyM | weather isn't in the node list |
| 00:12.32 | JefferyM | etc.. |
| 00:12.44 | JefferyM | they are part of the background phase now |
| 00:12.55 | JefferyM | and that's not right, cus they need to be sorted with the world objects |
| 00:13.18 | res|laptop | so that would actually be "implement scene nodes for effects" |
| 00:13.31 | JefferyM | I think t would come down to something like that yeah |
| 00:13.38 | trepan | chuckles, sorted rain drops ... |
| 00:13.40 | JefferyM | then they'd be sorted in the tree |
| 00:13.50 | JefferyM | yeah rain, not so much |
| 00:13.59 | JefferyM | but the spawn and shot effects, sure |
| 00:14.09 | JefferyM | they have transperancy issues now when stacked IIRC |
| 00:14.30 | JefferyM | rain is probably fine in a phase by it'self |
| 00:14.44 | JefferyM | probably between background and world |
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| 00:14.56 | trepan | rain would go after world, no? |
| 00:14.59 | res|laptop | not after world? |
| 00:15.13 | res|laptop | background, world (incl. effects), weather, HUD |
| 00:15.18 | trepan | split world into opaque and translucent |
| 00:15.28 | trepan | you'd want rain after opaque |
| 00:16.35 | res|laptop | I guess you could argue about that. if translucent objects draw over the rain it looks weird |
| 00:17.11 | JefferyM | don't you want to see the rain thru transpereant world windows? |
| 00:17.12 | JefferyM | is not totaly sure on the soring |
| 00:17.12 | JefferyM | but it'd go somewhere |
| 00:17.12 | JefferyM | ;) |
| 00:17.12 | JefferyM | is trying to stay high level |
| 00:17.20 | JefferyM | yeah |
| 00:17.42 | JefferyM | I'd think I'd see the rain behind a window ;) |
| 00:17.52 | JefferyM | but yeah, depth buffers are fun |
| 00:18.19 | JefferyM | there are a number of shortcuts we get to take with our rendering, like we know the moutains are always behind stuff |
| 00:18.38 | JefferyM | and nothing will ever be below the ground with out looking wierd ;) |
| 00:18.58 | JefferyM | we don't even clear the depth buffer for our ground plane |
| 00:19.08 | trepan | i think that z < 0 rendering is fine, or was |
| 00:19.23 | JefferyM | it dosn't get cliped by the ground |
| 00:19.23 | res|laptop | to get rain looking really exactly right is prolly complicated ;) |
| 00:19.32 | JefferyM | and often dosn't look like people expect |
| 00:19.37 | JefferyM | res|laptop, it's not that important |
| 00:19.47 | JefferyM | at that point we'll move to an engine and do rain with a shader |
| 00:20.01 | JefferyM | and that'd realy screw the old irix machines |
| 00:20.07 | trepan | could already be done with a script |
| 00:20.12 | JefferyM | see |
| 00:20.21 | res|laptop | shaders won't magically fix things either, you'll still have sorting issues |
| 00:20.31 | JefferyM | nothing is magical |
| 00:20.37 | JefferyM | they just offer more options |
| 00:20.54 | res|laptop | very true |
| 00:21.17 | JefferyM | the main advantage of a thrid party engine is that we get to leverage the work of others |
| 00:21.29 | JefferyM | and in many engines, people have made good rain :) |
| 00:22.16 | JefferyM | also don't forget, if you finish the GL project early, it's not a bad thing |
| 00:22.40 | JefferyM | perhaps at that time it'd be good to make a fork and see how well the split up code work with another engine, etc.. |
| 00:23.01 | JefferyM | or maybe see how the rest of the code could be refactored to take better advantage of the new split |
| 00:23.36 | res|laptop | it's just about cheating. for rain ... only draw it near the camera, use planes with a lot of drops, and some fog in the distance to emulate the smaller, visually indistinguishable drops. and draw some stuff on the "windscreen" as well; also obscures some of the cheating in the distance :) |
| 00:24.06 | JefferyM | have you seen the game? |
| 00:24.15 | JefferyM | our players arn't really expecting realism ;) |
| 00:24.30 | res|laptop | heh |
| 00:24.37 | trepan | is fairly sure they dislike it ... |
| 00:24.52 | JefferyM | it would drive them insane |
| 00:26.09 | trepan | the mere thought of it sends some running :) |
| 00:26.34 | TyroneFHornigh | Nothing is real |
| 00:26.43 | trepan | spoons and alligators |
| 00:28.53 | spldart | heh |
| 00:33.39 | brlcad | the uncanny valley would make it too distracting |
| 00:33.47 | brlcad | at least until it looked like crysis |
| 00:36.13 | TyroneFHornigh | If we are shooting for crysis, then we all need to upgrade our video cards. |
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| 00:58.36 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03trepan * r19555 10/trunk/bzflag/src/lua/ (LuaTextures.cxx LuaTextures.h): * implemented the lua gl.TexSubImage() call-out |
| 01:04.28 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03bzspldart * r19556 10/trunk/bzflag/BUGS: Confirmation and elaboration of transport issue. |
| 01:08.02 | spldart | Heh.. I was pretty behind the times... hadda redo a bit of my world for some of the slightly different requirements of teleport names and links ;~) |
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| 01:11.36 | res|laptop | JeffM: btw, thanks for the information |
| 01:11.52 | trepan | spldart: as you're the BUGS guy, "teleporting is blocking" is probably fixed |
| 01:11.59 | JeffM | res|laptop: sure thing |
| 01:13.12 | spldart | I just reconfirmed my specific teleport problem |
| 01:14.28 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03bzspldart * r19557 10/trunk/bzflag/BUGS: OK ok. Not another bug test but simple typo correction... |
| 01:14.37 | trepan | spldart: if you're ever in the mood to test it: http://trepan.bzflag.bz/coltest.bzw |
| 01:14.37 | spldart | teleporter above a mesh is sticking. Even if I put the tele above the mesh and on a conventional box. But your speaking of the other bug listed under 'Gameplay' ? |
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| 01:28.30 | spldart | I've not tested thoroughly but your coltest.bzw transports seem to work just fine. |
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| 01:40.18 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03trepan * r19558 10/trunk/bzflag/src/lua/LuaTextures.cxx: * improved GL error code reporting |
| 01:41.53 | spldart | meh.. I'll hammer on my map more tomorrow. It used to be fine in 2.0.x :-/ |
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| 01:59.16 | trepan | with gl.TexSubImage(), it's fairly easy to have bzflag do paint.exe's job :) |
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| 03:04.23 | Will07c5 | if anybody has time, could someone comment on my proposals? |
| 03:08.11 | JeffM | looks decent enough |
| 03:09.03 | Will07c5 | which one? :P |
| 03:09.26 | JeffM | workbench |
| 03:09.57 | JeffM | the GL one is by far the weaker proposal |
| 03:10.09 | Will07c5 | yeah that's what I thought |
| 03:10.12 | DTRemenak|RDP | Will07c5: just fyi, I went through and commented on all the proposals I thought were sub-par. Yours weren't, so you got no comments from me today :P |
| 03:10.32 | Will07c5 | DTRemenak|RDP: Thanks :) |
| 03:11.00 | Will07c5 | I was more interested in bzworkbench so it got a lot more time |
| 03:11.05 | JeffM | I commented both yours |
| 03:11.11 | JeffM | so you can edit if you need to |
| 03:11.26 | JeffM | the workbench one is fine, I just commented so you could edit :) |
| 03:11.47 | DTRemenak | I liked that proposal quite a bit. One thing I would suggest for the community bonding period is that you should take the time to design a few maps by hand. It'll give you a better feel for what users need. |
| 03:11.57 | JeffM | indeed |
| 03:12.05 | Will07c5 | ok that sounds like a great idea |
| 03:13.26 | DTRemenak | and probably before that you should try to play on a decent variety of maps too, in more than one game mode, to pick up common ideas and concepts |
| 03:13.49 | DTRemenak | in other words, less playing with code, more playing with the game ;) |
| 03:14.01 | DTRemenak | but that's just my suggestion |
| 03:14.06 | Will07c5 | I won't complain about that :P |
| 03:14.18 | DTRemenak | don't get me wrong, they're both fun activities :D |
| 03:14.25 | Will07c5 | agreed |
| 03:14.35 | DTRemenak | I just think it would be helpful, since you mentioned being new to bzflag |
| 03:15.11 | DTRemenak | and fwiw, there's nothing wrong with that, it's an easy game to pick up :) |
| 03:16.44 | Will07c5 | yeah it is a very fun game and the only reason I'm not playing it now is I have 3 exams to study for :( |
| 03:17.33 | DTRemenak | ah, don't ya just love how they pile up like that? :) |
| 03:18.18 | Will07c5 | yeah last semester it wasn't so bad since they always ended up in different weeks |
| 03:18.20 | DTRemenak | would have preferred one midterm a week for four weeks, to four midterms in two days |
| 03:19.44 | DTRemenak | most of ours were take-home too. it was interesting to realize that I had 16 hours of tests to take in 11 hours ;) |
| 03:19.59 | Will07c5 | it doesn't help that I haven't been paying much attention in math lately heh |
| 03:20.28 | Will07c5 | oh that sucks, I actually prefer non-takehome exams since they can't make them too long |
| 03:20.35 | DTRemenak | well, that's what the textbook is for, right? ;) |
| 03:21.05 | Will07c5 | yeah except a few of the things that were taught in class aren't in the textbook |
| 03:21.29 | DTRemenak | ah, that sucks. hope you had friends who took notes :) |
| 03:22.23 | Will07c5 | nope but I'm going to see if the internet can help me |
| 03:23.04 | DTRemenak | good luck with that. I always found it somewhat lacking in appropriate math and science materials. |
| 03:23.38 | Will07c5 | well it is only a couple things so I should be fine otherwise |
| 03:24.22 | DTRemenak | the tendency for online sources was to either be insufficiently rigorous, or rely too heavily on subjects we hadn't gotten to yet, neither of which is tremendously helpful. |
| 03:24.43 | DTRemenak | but maybe it's improved in the meantime |
| 03:25.01 | Will07c5 | yeah that has been my experience with most things |
| 03:25.51 | Will07c5 | wikipedia is generally not very helpful when it comes to math |
| 03:33.35 | DTRemenak | Will07c5: oh, and thanks ever so much for including your irc nick and patch link in your application without needing to be asked for them. you'd be amazed how many people can't follow those simple instructions ;) |
| 03:36.11 | Will07c5 | heh, thanks, I actually initially forgot them and had to go back and edit my proposal :P |
| 03:36.24 | DTRemenak | well, they were there when I got there, so that's good enough for me :) |
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| 03:52.24 | nightstrike | hey guys, just to get an idea about the modularization project, I'd like to ask a few questions |
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| 03:52.43 | DTRemenak | go for it |
| 03:53.43 | nightstrike | in bzflag/CrackedGlass.cxx, there are three functions for rendering cracks (essentially two, cus one of them just calls either of the other two); namely, Render, RenderHighResCracks and RenderClassicCracks |
| 03:54.14 | JeffM | yeah |
| 03:54.19 | nightstrike | now this project would involve migrating only these three to say libGL, and it would leave the InitCracks and MakeCrack functions behind? |
| 03:54.23 | JeffM | the high res ones ae lame :) |
| 03:54.29 | JeffM | I'd move it all |
| 03:54.36 | JeffM | since it all has to do with drawing |
| 03:54.41 | JeffM | and is pointles on it's own |
| 03:54.49 | nightstrike | so any bit of logic related to preparing something to draw is to be moved as well |
| 03:54.51 | nightstrike | right? |
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| 03:55.03 | JeffM | if you wanted to you could have a set of callbacks that were instaleed to overide the crack logic :) |
| 03:55.05 | JeffM | yeah |
| 03:55.18 | JeffM | not all drawing code is gl calls |
| 03:55.24 | nightstrike | yes yes |
| 03:55.27 | JeffM | the scenegraph is a prime example |
| 03:55.30 | JeffM | it dosn't call any GL |
| 03:55.31 | nightstrike | I'm getting a feel of this |
| 03:55.37 | JeffM | but it ONLY has to do with drawing |
| 03:56.10 | nightstrike | so technically, this is slightly easier than the game logic modularization project isn't it? Since it's rather easy to identify code related to drawing? |
| 03:56.38 | DTRemenak | as a counterexample, the HUD code should mostly be left where it is, imho...but the render() method of each control should be "clean" (just a couple calls out to the graphics lib) |
| 03:56.52 | JeffM | yeah |
| 03:57.11 | JeffM | the hud part should be able to be virtual out to the part where it draws the controll |
| 03:57.21 | JeffM | "drawUIITem" or something |
| 03:57.23 | nightstrike | Ok, I see, I was gonna ask about the same |
| 03:57.23 | jorgenpt | Hey, cool |
| 03:57.31 | jorgenpt | That's finally getting done? Is this GSoC plans? :) |
| 03:57.49 | JeffM | jorgenpt: students are submiting proposals |
| 03:57.53 | nightstrike | stars.cxx looks interesting! :) |
| 03:57.54 | DTRemenak | no guarantees about it getting done or not, but it's on the ideas list and we have a couple proposals for it |
| 03:58.25 | jorgenpt | Sweet |
| 03:58.31 | DTRemenak | nightstrike: to give you an idea of how fun it used to be, stars.cxx was at one time #included in several other cxx files |
| 03:58.43 | jorgenpt | DTRemenak: Ouch. :S |
| 03:59.10 | DTRemenak | jorgenpt: and all the code currently in HUDui* was in one file ;) |
| 03:59.20 | DTRemenak | and all of the *Menus were in another, single file |
| 03:59.21 | brlcad | howdy jorgenpt |
| 04:00.00 | jorgenpt | Hey brlcad. :-) |
| 04:00.19 | DTRemenak | brlcad busted up the menus, and after that people were somehow less scared of editing them :) |
| 04:00.34 | jorgenpt | I wonder how broken bzrobots is these days. |
| 04:00.36 | DTRemenak | 300Kb files are intimidating, I guess ;) |
| 04:00.40 | jorgenpt | Ugh |
| 04:00.55 | nightstrike | DTRemenak: neat! |
| 04:01.21 | jorgenpt | I find 150K bad enough, DTRemenak |
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| 04:01.41 | jorgenpt | I have a project that has a "main" ftpd.c of 5k lines with 150K code. |
| 04:01.59 | DTRemenak | I think we only have two files that still exceed that |
| 04:02.10 | nightstrike | I'll hopefully come up with another proposal by tomorrow |
| 04:02.15 | DTRemenak | playing.cxx and bzfs.cxx. both of them need love. |
| 04:02.21 | brlcad | DTRemenak: funny how that happens |
| 04:03.30 | brlcad | bzfs was the same way .. massive beast few would touch, then once busted up it was suddenly playground to double in size with new features |
| 04:03.54 | brlcad | should finish breaking up playing.cxx though, hrm |
| 04:04.05 | DTRemenak | comments on the last unreviewed proposal |
| 04:04.50 | DTRemenak | brlcad: at least main() doesn't take up 3/4 of the file anymore :) |
| 04:04.59 | brlcad | heh, true |
| 04:05.16 | PositiveG | Who can I talk to about getting a BZFlag cloak? |
| 04:06.50 | *** join/#bzflag adityav (n=adf@115.240.28.157) |
| 04:07.08 | nightstrike | playing.cxx and bzfs.cxx needs a LOT of love! |
| 04:07.15 | DTRemenak | PositiveG: http://my.bzflag.org/w/IRCCloaks |
| 04:07.26 | PositiveG | Thanks DTRemenak |
| 04:07.33 | brlcad | nightstrike: and they've received a lot of love |
| 04:07.47 | DTRemenak | is a bit surprised that took so long to find, I knew it was there somewhere... |
| 04:08.17 | brlcad | bzfs.cxx used to be at least 4x in size (probably more) |
| 04:08.46 | brlcad | playing used to be 2x-3x the size or so iirc |
| 04:09.23 | nightstrike | oh my!!! |
| 04:09.55 | brlcad | nightstrike: basically all of src/bzfs .. was one file |
| 04:10.27 | nightstrike | wow!!! who made it what it is right now? |
| 04:10.29 | brlcad | after it was broken up though, a lot more ended up getting added |
| 04:11.17 | brlcad | I spent days factoring out classes, lots of folks worked on it though |
| 04:13.18 | nightstrike | ok |
| 04:15.02 | brlcad | yeah, looks right .. looks like I started the breakup back in r1799 | brlcad | 2003-07-05 |
| 04:15.21 | brlcad | "separated out WorldInfo class from bzfs.cxx" was the start |
| 04:15.38 | nightstrike | brlcad, can you check out the proposal I've already submitted? |
| 04:15.53 | DTRemenak | 1758 is yours too, splitting out TextChunkManager |
| 04:16.10 | brlcad | ah, was looking for "separated" |
| 04:16.20 | DTRemenak | "Separated out TextChunkManager class from bzfs.cxx" |
| 04:16.26 | brlcad | oh, oops |
| 04:16.29 | DTRemenak | case maybe? |
| 04:16.33 | brlcad | maybe |
| 04:16.51 | brlcad | amazing that those classes have survived |
| 04:17.09 | DTRemenak | it was getting consistently bigger up til 1758, then started shrinking...so I'm pretty sure that's it :) |
| 04:17.20 | brlcad | looks like technically chris did a breakout earlier, but moved stuff over into a lib |
| 04:17.36 | DTRemenak | 1.8 split it all up too, bzfs.cxx was <100kb |
| 04:17.42 | jorgenpt | Oh well. Good night, fellers. Good luck with your GSoC applicants and applications. ;-) |
| 04:17.54 | brlcad | jorgenpt: there's a robots project ;) |
| 04:17.59 | DTRemenak | jorgenpt: want to mentor? :) |
| 04:18.07 | brlcad | hehe |
| 04:18.19 | DTRemenak | sorry, I guess that was brlcad's line :) |
| 04:18.27 | brlcad | perfect timing |
| 04:18.53 | jorgenpt | hehe |
| 04:18.57 | jorgenpt | Really? Link? :) |
| 04:19.07 | brlcad | if you're a mentor, you could see it |
| 04:19.11 | jorgenpt | Though perhaps not mentor, with my current knowledge of the bzflag codebase. :p |
| 04:19.49 | brlcad | hasn't changed that much |
| 04:19.57 | brlcad | especially src/bzrobots |
| 04:20.04 | jorgenpt | whistles |
| 04:20.17 | DTRemenak | jorgenpt: http://my.bzflag.org/w/Google_Summer_of_Code/2009#BZRobots |
| 04:20.25 | jorgenpt | Are you guys lacking mentors? |
| 04:20.29 | brlcad | always |
| 04:20.35 | DTRemenak | and we do have an application for that project |
| 04:20.55 | jorgenpt | If you're seriously proposing it, then I'll consider it. :) |
| 04:21.00 | JeffM | well it dosn't build on windows, so I know I havent' done anything with bots :0 |
| 04:21.10 | adityav | is there any documentation of BZflag code? doxygen will do too |
| 04:21.20 | JeffM | we mentor as a group, so we could even not asign you a student |
| 04:21.27 | JeffM | just let you help when you wanted |
| 04:21.30 | JeffM | and hey, free shirt :) |
| 04:21.34 | JeffM | adityav: nope |
| 04:21.41 | DTRemenak | as far as I'm concerned, it's serious, assuming you aren't applying to be a student for either us or some other org ;) |
| 04:21.49 | JeffM | let the code be your guide :) |
| 04:22.10 | DTRemenak | adityav: you can run doxygen over the source, and it will give you docs on some parts of it (15% maybe?) |
| 04:22.19 | jorgenpt | No, I've considered applying to gsoc this year, but decided against it. Gonna cross my fingers on the open job market this summer. :o |
| 04:22.30 | adityav | won't hurt |
| 04:22.44 | jorgenpt | I was hoping that last years internship would help with the application process this year, but I've already been turned down once. :-/ |
| 04:22.47 | adityav | I need to keep class implementations handy |
| 04:22.49 | DTRemenak | DEVINFOhas a high-level overview |
| 04:22.51 | jorgenpt | Oh well, I'll work in a factory if I find nothing else. ;P |
| 04:23.07 | brlcad | jorgenpt: yeah, it's a serious offer if you're interested |
| 04:23.12 | JeffM | adityav: what editor do you use? |
| 04:23.23 | jorgenpt | brlcad: How much time do you think would be involved? |
| 04:23.51 | brlcad | few hours a week usually |
| 04:23.56 | adityav | IDE? gedit + codelblocks |
| 04:23.57 | jorgenpt | That little? |
| 04:24.01 | JeffM | adityav: ahh |
| 04:24.06 | brlcad | whomever is assigned a student has more responsibilities to fill out their reviews |
| 04:24.16 | brlcad | it really depends on the student |
| 04:24.21 | JeffM | and the mentor |
| 04:24.23 | jorgenpt | Well, yeah. Sure, sign me up, would be interesting to be on the other side of the glass. :) |
| 04:24.46 | brlcad | we're a lot better on getting students set up with daily reporting now so that they can be tracked better than we were first year |
| 04:24.53 | DTRemenak | jorgenpt: depends on the student. the app we've received so far for bzrobots I would not expect to be tremendously demanding. |
| 04:25.11 | jorgenpt | Was first year '07? |
| 04:25.16 | brlcad | yeah |
| 04:25.23 | DTRemenak | ours was, yes. google's was '05. |
| 04:25.41 | jorgenpt | But yes, I'd love to experience being a mentor, especially with you guys. :) |
| 04:27.00 | brlcad | if you go to the socghop site and create a link id, a request exchange can happen to add you as a mentor |
| 04:27.33 | brlcad | jorgenpt: there's also more time involved with discussions near the beginning to review/evaluate proposals -- three hot spots are evals, midterms, and final evals |
| 04:28.16 | brlcad | still, nothing deeply technical, it's discussions, questions, direction |
| 04:29.07 | jorgenpt | Got a ~timeline? |
| 04:29.11 | jorgenpt | I have exams at the end of may |
| 04:29.19 | brlcad | ~gsoctimeline |
| 04:29.20 | ibot | hmm... gsoctimeline is http://socghop.appspot.com/document/show/program/google/gsoc2009/timeline |
| 04:29.35 | DTRemenak | ah, the bot is faster than me :) |
| 04:30.17 | jorgenpt | I think my last exam is ~27th of may |
| 04:31.04 | DTRemenak | we do mentoring as a group, so if you aren't available at some time, someone else can handle your student's questions (as much as they know how) |
| 04:31.27 | DTRemenak | pgdp calls it "grentoring" |
| 04:31.34 | jorgenpt | DTRemenak: I remember. :-) |
| 04:31.38 | jorgenpt | pgdp? |
| 04:31.42 | brlcad | grentoring, I like that |
| 04:31.57 | DTRemenak | project gutenburg distributed proofreaders - http://pgdp.net/ |
| 04:32.00 | JeffM | all I'll say to the student is "don't use SDL in dll intefaces" over and over again :) |
| 04:32.12 | jorgenpt | Ah, cool. |
| 04:32.13 | DTRemenak | STL |
| 04:32.16 | JeffM | that too |
| 04:32.28 | brlcad | sounds like a perfectly cromulent word to make it into pop culture |
| 04:32.33 | jorgenpt | brlcad: Submitted. |
| 04:32.35 | DTRemenak | indeed :) |
| 04:33.22 | brlcad | jorgenpt: pong'd into your court |
| 04:39.08 | adityav | forgot to exclude others dir... There are two lua folders in src? on is src on in src/others.. which is BZflag revelant? |
| 04:39.48 | DTRemenak | both, iirc. how's that for confusing? :) |
| 04:40.14 | DTRemenak | src/other is for external libraries, though, so you can exclude it altogether |
| 04:40.52 | DTRemenak | our copy of lua there should be exactly (or almost exactly) like lua's public distribution |
| 04:41.38 | trepan | src/other/lua/README_BZFLAG |
| 04:42.41 | jorgenpt | Hm. A US Large might be a bit large? |
| 04:43.15 | jorgenpt | Meh, I can shrink it in the tumbledrier. ;p |
| 04:43.31 | ParadoxG | Hi all, I'm a GSOC student, and I was just wondering what you meant by "don't use SDL in dll intefaces"? |
| 04:43.37 | DTRemenak | there should be a size chart linked to from whatever page you're filling out, jorgenpt |
| 04:43.43 | JeffM | ParadoxG: I meant STL |
| 04:43.43 | DTRemenak | ParadoxG: STL, not SDL |
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| 04:43.45 | JeffM | not SDL |
| 04:43.53 | jorgenpt | DTRemenak: Yeah, I know. tl;dr |
| 04:43.55 | jorgenpt | ;-) |
| 04:44.02 | JeffM | can't type |
| 04:44.05 | ParadoxG | Ok, I still don't quite understand though |
| 04:44.15 | jorgenpt | Also, it didn't help me much. I don |
| 04:44.16 | DTRemenak | passing STL containers across DLL boundaries in Windows is dangerous(tm) |
| 04:44.19 | jorgenpt | 't know my measurements. |
| 04:44.19 | JeffM | on windows, templates can cause problems if the cause the boundries |
| 04:44.35 | DTRemenak | jorgenpt: ah, heh |
| 04:44.55 | JeffM | since they are implemented in the headers, they get implemetned by whatever module has the object, and if they use different runtimes, it can go "boom" |
| 04:45.08 | adityav | woa, lots of warnings about lots of stuff not being documented.. |
| 04:45.10 | DTRemenak | or even if they use different compile flags |
| 04:45.14 | ParadoxG | So, you use custom implementations instead? |
| 04:45.15 | jorgenpt | I know my weight, and almost my height. (like, down to the decimeter) |
| 04:45.15 | JeffM | it's usualy ok if they have the same runtimes, but VC complains like heck cus it's not an exported class. |
| 04:45.20 | JeffM | yeah |
| 04:45.26 | JeffM | ParadoxG: no just don't use templates |
| 04:45.37 | DTRemenak | custom templates are fine, just not STL |
| 04:45.38 | JeffM | char* works perfectly fine for passing data ;) |
| 04:45.55 | JeffM | yeah you can make your stuff safe |
| 04:45.59 | JeffM | and export them |
| 04:45.59 | DTRemenak | and it's only across DLL boundaries, so if you want to pass STL, you can do it freely in static libraries |
| 04:46.13 | JeffM | my comment was very specific to robots |
| 04:46.21 | ParadoxG | Ok, sound like great advise |
| 04:46.32 | DTRemenak | for us it only really makes a difference in a few very specific places where we load external DLLs...plugins, robots, etc |
| 04:46.33 | JeffM | I found I was unable to get it to build on windows because it included too much stuff from bzflag that was never meant to be exported. |
| 04:47.06 | DTRemenak | but it's something to keep in mind in general if you're writing stuff that you expect to be able to run on windows |
| 04:48.20 | JeffM | ok, type safe open GL == awesome |
| 04:48.52 | DTRemenak | what, you don't like GLvoid*? :) |
| 04:49.25 | JeffM | GL.Normal(Vector3.Up); |
| 04:49.30 | JeffM | that's what I'm talkin about |
| 04:50.01 | JeffM | OpenTK took the tao codebase and made it like cool |
| 04:58.24 | adityav | well, doxygen didn't document ogl classes. Can anyone tell me what sorted and unsorted classes are for in openglState class? |
| 04:58.50 | JeffM | probably not of the top of our heads |
| 04:58.55 | JeffM | that's old code :) |
| 04:59.00 | JeffM | if anyone can it'd be trepan |
| 04:59.05 | JeffM | but that's a longshot :) |
| 04:59.10 | DTRemenak | thinks we should make all the people who apply for the logic cleanup project memorize http://tinyurl.com/cnvn4y |
| 04:59.22 | JeffM | heh |
| 04:59.56 | jorgenpt | Pretty graph, though. |
| 04:59.59 | jorgenpt | Good night, lads. |
| 05:00.04 | DTRemenak | night jorgenpt |
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| 05:00.10 | JeffM | for ugly versions of pretty :) |
| 05:00.25 | DTRemenak | it's pretty, unless you think about what it MEANS |
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| 05:00.57 | jorgenpt | Yeah, I meant it as "the graphing was pretty", not "the graphed data was pretty" ;-) |
| 05:01.05 | jorgenpt | *gone* |
| 05:01.30 | trepan | data in sorted is ... sorted (or more specifically, they're material containers are) |
| 05:01.35 | trepan | *their |
| 05:03.33 | trepan | data held in the unsorted class is "just set" during gstate setState() |
| 05:03.53 | trepan | note the lack of operator< and operator== in 'class Unsorted' |
| 05:05.08 | adityav | I was under the impression that OpenGLGStateState has only one instance when game is running |
| 05:05.54 | JeffM | you can build and store states IIRC |
| 05:06.30 | adityav | oh |
| 05:07.10 | trepan | look for 'state = new OpenGLGStateState;' in ogl/OpenGLGState.cxx |
| 05:07.52 | JeffM | statics are fun :) |
| 05:08.06 | trepan | isn't terribly fond of that material management code ... rewrote it once ;-) |
| 05:08.18 | JeffM | indded |
| 05:08.26 | JeffM | for none that wrote it.. now still live |
| 05:08.35 | adityav | this code exists only for material management ? |
| 05:08.44 | adityav | the whole file i mean |
| 05:08.52 | JeffM | basicly |
| 05:08.55 | trepan | most of it |
| 05:09.10 | trepan | there's also some context management, and silly stuff like stippling |
| 05:09.10 | JeffM | back in the days of software rendering, a state change was REALLY bad for performance |
| 05:09.21 | JeffM | so you wanted to minimise the number of changes you did |
| 05:10.35 | adityav | whats the cost associated with state change nowdays? |
| 05:11.02 | JeffM | on modern hardware, not much as long as it's not a texture change |
| 05:11.09 | JeffM | and even then it ain't bad |
| 05:11.24 | JeffM | state changes on old software systems used to do a full CPU cache flush in some GL implementations |
| 05:11.39 | adityav | woa |
| 05:12.02 | JeffM | kids with them fancy GEEE PEEE USE these days got it made :) |
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| 05:12.47 | JeffM | tells DTRemenak to get off his lawn |
| 05:14.08 | adityav | wonders how old is this code |
| 05:14.37 | JeffM | probably from before 1993 |
| 05:14.54 | JeffM | as I think it was mostly a C++ port of his existing C state code from SGI |
| 05:24.04 | adityav | even the comments are really old |
| 05:24.10 | adityav | like this : // TODO: |
| 05:24.11 | adityav | - go back to counting matrix push/pops just for modelview? |
| 05:24.12 | adityav | would have to make sure that display lists are also handled |
| 05:24.13 | adityav | (GL_MODELVIEW_STACK_DEPTH could help current situation, but |
| 05:24.14 | adityav | requires the ARB_imaging extension) |
| 05:24.22 | JeffM | bzflag is an old proejct |
| 05:24.38 | JeffM | it was actualy started before openGL was released |
| 05:26.02 | adityav | SIG days right? |
| 05:26.15 | JeffM | SGI |
| 05:26.16 | adityav | SGI :P |
| 05:26.16 | JeffM | yes |
| 05:27.32 | delerious | breaks into five seperate pieces, which fly off in all directions. |
| 05:27.39 | Bulldozer | All this OpenGL talk makes me want to ask a question... |
| 05:27.52 | JeffM | then ask |
| 05:28.42 | Bulldozer | If you're building an object out of something like a triangle fan or a quad strip; |
| 05:29.29 | Bulldozer | then you want to put it somewhere else by calling translate or rotate |
| 05:29.41 | JeffM | it dosn't copy it |
| 05:29.49 | JeffM | that's just a matrix transform |
| 05:29.56 | Bulldozer | yeah, I'm that far... |
| 05:29.59 | JeffM | k |
| 05:30.00 | Bulldozer | is there something you need to do to get the lighting to work right? |
| 05:30.18 | JeffM | did you define normals in the strip? |
| 05:30.30 | Bulldozer | I had a feeling you were headed there :) |
| 05:30.39 | JeffM | so that's a "no" then ;) |
| 05:30.52 | Bulldozer | Hmm... |
| 05:30.59 | Bulldozer | wonders what I'm doing wrong |
| 05:31.14 | JeffM | do you have calls to glNormal3f(); ? |
| 05:31.20 | Bulldozer | none |
| 05:31.33 | JeffM | then the normals in the strip will be whatever the state was left at then |
| 05:31.41 | JeffM | is that all you are drawing? |
| 05:31.44 | adityav | feels wierd to see as latest code as framebuffers to pre opengl code in a single project |
| 05:32.05 | trepan | then ignore the lua stuff ;-) |
| 05:32.15 | Bulldozer | at the moment, two triangle fans, a quad strip, and a glutSolidSphere |
| 05:32.32 | JeffM | when is glut called, before or after the fans? |
| 05:32.54 | Bulldozer | after, and the sphere's lighting is right |
| 05:33.05 | JeffM | when do you transform your light? |
| 05:33.12 | JeffM | before or after the model transform? |
| 05:33.25 | Bulldozer | i don't. i set the light's position at the beginning of each frame |
| 05:33.31 | Bulldozer | then do the transformation |
| 05:33.36 | Bulldozer | then draw the stuff |
| 05:33.39 | JeffM | do you have a camera transform? |
| 05:33.54 | Bulldozer | no, just playing around with basic stuff |
| 05:34.03 | JeffM | ok so your light is in screen space |
| 05:34.18 | JeffM | I'm going to say your normals are in an undefined state |
| 05:34.27 | JeffM | lighting can't work with out valid normals |
| 05:34.40 | JeffM | then glut call WILL define normals for the sperhere faces |
| 05:35.07 | Bulldozer | alright, that makes sense. |
| 05:35.21 | Bulldozer | heads off to find out how to properly set up the normals |
| 05:35.25 | JeffM | it's up to the implementation to decide how to init the normal item in the state |
| 05:35.32 | adityav | trepan: That code is in OpenGlContext.cxx .. framebuffers, renderbuffers, occulsion queries.. don't know if its related to lua |
| 05:35.37 | JeffM | Bulldozer: just call glNormal with the face normal |
| 05:35.56 | JeffM | if you don't have the face normal, then cross product the first 2 edges as unit vectors |
| 05:36.20 | JeffM | so V0-V1 x V0-V2 IIRC |
| 05:36.33 | trepan | adityav: it's used by EventHandler, which is only tied to lua scripts |
| 05:36.35 | JeffM | always gets the directions wrong |
| 05:37.00 | JeffM | adityav: it's so that lua can draw using openGL |
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| 05:41.04 | adityav | well, I want to work on the GSOC project for 'integrating opengl code into a single lib' the reason i am digging up all this old code is to find how the current implementations work |
| 05:41.14 | adityav | and where to insert my new lib |
| 05:41.40 | JeffM | I don't think you'd have to change the glState class at all |
| 05:41.42 | JeffM | just move it |
| 05:41.51 | JeffM | remember it dosn't have to be lib |
| 05:42.01 | JeffM | it can just be a dir with C++ files that gets built in |
| 05:42.06 | JeffM | tho a static lib is just as easy |
| 05:42.09 | adityav | could be a class |
| 05:42.21 | JeffM | sure, but class != lib ;) |
| 05:42.26 | JeffM | just making that point |
| 05:42.35 | adityav | totally |
| 05:42.41 | trepan | fwiw, cross(v2 - v1, v1 - v0).normalize() |
| 05:43.09 | JeffM | see I always get the directions wrong :) |
| 05:43.11 | trepan | (parallel vectors would make normalize() unhappy :) |
| 05:43.33 | adityav | the cross would depend on where those v2, v1, v0 are placed? |
| 05:43.38 | trepan | math is overrated ;-) |
| 05:43.57 | JeffM | the vector you get back would, yeah |
| 05:44.06 | JeffM | depends on the winding |
| 05:44.32 | adityav | that formula could make bulldozers normal face away from the light, |
| 05:44.39 | JeffM | it'll basicly flip the normal upside down |
| 05:44.40 | JeffM | yeah |
| 05:44.48 | JeffM | depends on his winding |
| 05:44.56 | JeffM | CW vs CCW |
| 05:46.33 | adityav | (back to soc) do you guys have any vision as to how the integration should look like? |
| 05:47.32 | JeffM | really dosn't want to go over it again |
| 05:48.00 | adityav | looks hopefully |
| 05:48.02 | JeffM | some class that has the rendering system, that has all the other stuff in it |
| 05:48.08 | JeffM | like a master thingy |
| 05:48.18 | JeffM | that pulls from the state to update the things that move |
| 05:48.30 | JeffM | and has drawables that get sorted in it's own scene |
| 05:48.36 | JeffM | then drawn in the right order |
| 05:49.01 | JeffM | background -> world -> effects -> tanks, shots -> weather -> overlays (menu/hud) |
| 05:49.52 | JeffM | then if we want to make it headless we just don't call the part that updates the rendering system, and don't make a rendering system |
| 05:50.11 | JeffM | if we want to swap out the rendering system, we just make another class with the same interface and sub classes, etc.. |
| 05:50.26 | adityav | thats a literally a game engine |
| 05:50.37 | JeffM | sorta |
| 05:50.45 | JeffM | it would not be as generic as that |
| 05:50.49 | JeffM | as a real engine |
| 05:50.55 | JeffM | and we basicly HAVE a game engine |
| 05:50.59 | JeffM | cus you know.. we are a game |
| 05:51.07 | JeffM | so it's just putting our stuff in a more usable format |
| 05:51.39 | JeffM | we have the scenegraph |
| 05:51.42 | JeffM | we have the materials system |
| 05:51.48 | JeffM | we have the GUI kit |
| 05:51.49 | JeffM | etc.. |
| 05:53.06 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03bullet_catcher * r19559 10/trunk/bzflag/AUTHORS: Bruce Wayne! Why are you dressed up like Batman? |
| 05:54.07 | BulletCatcher | I just submitted my mentor request. |
| 05:54.14 | *** join/#bzflag adityav (n=adf@115.240.28.157) |
| 05:54.39 | adityav | i read that bzflag is going to use crystal space rendering engine? |
| 05:55.11 | JeffM | adityav: you misunderstood what you read |
| 05:55.33 | JeffM | a single developer experimented with moving the code over to a CS based system |
| 05:55.39 | JeffM | it did not go as well as he hoped |
| 05:55.47 | adityav | oho |
| 05:56.03 | JeffM | based on our current discussions with various engine developers, Ogre seems to be the one we'd pick as a gorup, if we had to pick today |
| 05:56.09 | JeffM | it fits our system better |
| 05:56.14 | JeffM | and the devs are cool |
| 05:56.48 | JeffM | Left handed coordinate systems are for chumps ;) |
| 05:57.00 | JeffM | BulletCatcher: and you are accepted |
| 05:57.23 | BulletCatcher | Cool. |
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| 05:59.28 | BulletCatcher | toils filling out the form |
| 06:00.17 | brlcad | woo hoo |
| 06:00.23 | brlcad | he has a name |
| 06:00.29 | brlcad | and it's not robert paulson |
| 06:00.32 | BulletCatcher | :-) |
| 06:01.00 | adityav | how is lua being used? |
| 06:01.06 | brlcad | very carefully |
| 06:01.24 | a_meteorite | do not mess with the lua. do not taunt. do not blink. |
| 06:01.41 | JeffM | the world needs more jeff's stand proud, even if I have stolen every single one of your possible nicks :) |
| 06:01.59 | JeffM | adityav: the client can use it to do client side scripting, including drawing |
| 06:02.08 | JeffM | via some API |
| 06:02.14 | JeffM | it's also available on the server for scripting |
| 06:02.15 | JeffM | it's new |
| 06:02.42 | BulletCatcher | I have first initial + last name as a registered nick, too. |
| 06:03.07 | JeffM | cool |
| 06:03.17 | JeffM | tho do you do it Jeffrey or Jeffery? |
| 06:03.30 | BulletCatcher | Jeffrey |
| 06:03.33 | JeffM | is ashamed that his dad can't spell |
| 06:03.39 | JeffM | I got ery |
| 06:04.04 | JeffM | was expected to be a girl, so a name was chosen on the spot |
| 06:05.13 | BulletCatcher | I have a niece who is Morgan, but would have gotten the same name regardless of gender. |
| 06:05.29 | JeffM | some parents like to do that |
| 06:05.37 | JeffM | tho many now seem to find out the gender |
| 06:05.49 | JeffM | that was all super science when I was born |
| 06:06.05 | JeffM | "sound waves to see inside someone.. good god man!" |
| 06:06.06 | Constitution | omg science! |
| 06:06.23 | JeffM | is so happy he lives in the future |
| 06:07.05 | BulletCatcher | "Live in the future! It's just starting now." |
| 06:07.15 | Constitution | snickers at how Bulldozer's name is spelled |
| 06:07.35 | Bulldozer | feels the love |
| 06:22.17 | BulletCatcher | heads over to Missile War to prove his mentor qualifications |
| 07:06.32 | *** join/#bzflag tupone (n=alfredo@gentoo/developer/tupone) |
| 07:06.33 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v tupone] by ChanServ |
| 07:08.48 | tupone | bzspldart: if you fix a typo fix all typo in that line: s/comunication/communication/ |
| 07:09.41 | tupone | !spell seperate |
| 07:18.46 | Constitution | hi tupone |
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| 08:35.48 | PaulB_ | hello |
| 08:37.02 | PaulB_ | used the nick Paul_PL last year |
| 08:42.05 | PaulB_ | any mentors around? |
| 08:44.57 | tupone | hi Constitution |
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| 12:03.40 | short_circuit | Sry Tupone |
| 12:07.03 | joevano | Czesc PaulB_, are you submitting a proposal this year? |
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| 13:20.40 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03Mr Burns 07http://my.bzflag.org * r5661 10/w/Google_Summer_of_Code: /* Minor grammar tweakage */ |
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| 14:33.33 | nightstrike | the applicants are supposed to play BZFlag with the mentors right? When are these being scheduled again? |
| 14:36.20 | brad | you have to beat the mentors in a ducati match to get accepted? |
| 14:38.22 | joevano | nightstrike: haven't been scheduled yet, that i have heard |
| 14:38.32 | nightstrike | brad: lol |
| 14:38.53 | nightstrike | like the clan acceptance battles I used to have back during the Starsiege days :) |
| 14:44.59 | ruskie | but I guess mostly clean fun with the intent to get the feel for the game ;) or just the total slaughter ;) |
| 14:45.33 | nightstrike | hello brlcad, I've only listed 2 objectives in my proposal. Couldn't think of anything more to say as far aas the libgame project was concerned |
| 14:46.00 | nightstrike | the application guidelines say that I need to mention at least 3 deliverables :| |
| 14:47.12 | ruskie | so split one in two ;) |
| 14:48.15 | nightstrike | ruskie; are you one of the mentors? |
| 14:48.26 | ruskie | nope |
| 14:48.40 | ruskie | just one of the many many players ;) |
| 14:50.54 | ruskie | of to kill some time |
| 14:54.55 | nightstrike | I just played a game, and I got owned 13-36 :| |
| 14:55.03 | nightstrike | takes some bit of time to get used to I guess |
| 14:55.43 | spldart | Crap.. a game betweeen dev's and applicants?! I'm rusty.. need to practice up.. |
| 14:56.16 | BulletCatcher | nightstrike: That's not a bad score if it was your first game. |
| 14:56.47 | ruskie | nightstrike, 13-36... hmm rather good |
| 14:56.56 | nightstrike | not my first, must be like my 3rd or 4th game |
| 14:57.50 | ruskie | I think the first game I played I had -50 if not more |
| 14:58.07 | *** join/#bzflag SpazzyMcGee (n=SpazzyMc@bzflag/contributor/SpazzyMcGee) |
| 14:58.35 | nightstrike | anyway to dodge a missile? apart from getting behind a wall? |
| 14:59.06 | BulletCatcher | It depends on the map, but turn sideways and dodge carefully. |
| 14:59.11 | BulletCatcher | You'll need dozens of hours of experience before you can expect to finish a game with a positive score. |
| 14:59.17 | nightstrike | woah |
| 14:59.33 | nightstrike | there was some guy by the name 'Che', he had an awesome score |
| 14:59.33 | BulletCatcher | There are some *very* good players out there. |
| 14:59.53 | ruskie | nightstrike, easy to dodge |
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| 15:00.15 | nightstrike | I simply love the wings flag :P |
| 15:00.17 | ruskie | nightstrike, if you're moving at a ~90 degree angle to the missile |
| 15:00.41 | joevano | spldart: ive played against you.. i don't think there is enough time for you to "sharpen up" |
| 15:00.42 | ruskie | nightstrike, you can do it with less but you should be moving slower until it just about to strike you |
| 15:00.56 | spldart | oh snap |
| 15:00.57 | ruskie | you can even close in onto a gm that way |
| 15:01.03 | ruskie | and then he's dead ;) |
| 15:01.07 | Thumper_ | heh |
| 15:01.10 | nightstrike | just like other games with guided missiles eh? :P |
| 15:01.10 | ruskie | nightstrike, learn to not rely on it ;) |
| 15:01.26 | ruskie | wg is imho the most pointless of all the flags |
| 15:01.30 | ruskie | even useless makes more sense |
| 15:01.43 | nightstrike | lol, helped me survive a few battles |
| 15:02.11 | nightstrike | and I kept flying around this one guy to dodge his shots as well |
| 15:02.21 | nightstrike | since he really didn't have much control over his jumps |
| 15:02.26 | ruskie | infact things not to rely include: jumping, any one flag |
| 15:02.32 | nightstrike | hmmm |
| 15:02.34 | nightstrike | laser is lovely |
| 15:02.45 | spldart | Pretty rico |
| 15:02.46 | spldart | s |
| 15:02.49 | spldart | and tk's |
| 15:02.52 | BulletCatcher | Each flag in BZFlag has a purpose. Not all flags are helpful on all maps. |
| 15:02.56 | black_pearl | hi mentors....if u dont mind who is the "best" player among u? |
| 15:03.16 | black_pearl | ;) |
| 15:03.16 | nightstrike | awaits an answer |
| 15:03.58 | ruskie | who are the mentors |
| 15:04.13 | spldart | hides |
| 15:04.17 | ruskie | lol |
| 15:04.22 | black_pearl | lol |
| 15:04.25 | ruskie | is manu a mentor? |
| 15:04.48 | BulletCatcher | I am the most recently added mentor, but am not sure how to get a list of all of us. |
| 15:04.48 | spldart | is gonna find a ducait map tonight and practice his no jump bullet dodging this evening ;) |
| 15:04.55 | SpazzyMcGee | PZ is the only flag that has really few uses |
| 15:05.22 | BulletCatcher | Phantom Zone is excellent for distracting players. |
| 15:05.29 | ruskie | it has a nasty bug as well |
| 15:06.44 | ruskie | can crunch a BU if you self destruct while zoned |
| 15:07.23 | BulletCatcher | makes a note of that, thanks |
| 15:07.28 | SpazzyMcGee | It's rarely used on pretty much all maps |
| 15:07.33 | ruskie | yeah |
| 15:07.38 | ruskie | it takes quite a bit of skill to actually do it |
| 15:07.48 | ruskie | since most BUs will move away from you |
| 15:08.02 | ruskie | and since you don't get immediate destruction ;) |
| 15:08.02 | SpazzyMcGee | Personally, I would drop it in favor of a new flag idea |
| 15:08.09 | ruskie | I like PZ |
| 15:08.32 | Manu | ruskie: who know :-p |
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| 15:11.20 | joevano | i would say of the ones I have played against.. it is Thumper_ |
| 15:11.45 | joevano | of course he is the one who taught me that admins are usually at the bottom of the score list :P |
| 15:12.51 | ruskie | yeah |
| 15:12.57 | ruskie | generally we need to take care of crap |
| 15:13.02 | BulletCatcher | Being a cop distracts from playing. |
| 15:13.29 | ruskie | but some of us are quite good at it now that we can be both at the top and still do our cop duties |
| 15:50.17 | brlcad | brad: absolutely |
| 15:51.18 | brlcad | nightstrike: yeah, you really need at *least* 3 -- and they're not deliverables, they're milestones |
| 15:51.41 | brlcad | so you should be able to break that up into succint steps, probably a multiple of two if you have two 'deliverables' :) |
| 15:51.54 | brlcad | spldart: don't worry, I haven't played in ages either :) |
| 15:52.08 | ruskie | hmm should be interesting to watch... |
| 15:52.26 | brlcad | joevano: haha (re spldart comment) |
| 15:52.32 | brlcad | sry spldart :) |
| 15:53.08 | spldart | is gonna hafta hunt joevano one of these days for fun and profit. |
| 15:53.35 | spldart | I wonder which server he spends most of his time on ;-p |
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| 16:06.15 | brlcad | hey PaulB_, glad to see you showed up |
| 16:07.29 | BulletCatcher | spldart: http://bzstats.strayer.de/players/stats/?name=joevano has the info you need to stalk him |
| 16:07.34 | PaulB_ | hi again :) |
| 16:07.46 | PaulB_ | I just came back home :) |
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| 16:09.47 | PaulB_ | brlcad: isn't it to late for me trying to jump in ? |
| 16:10.27 | PaulB_ | I've seen this year you're accepting at most 3 students so I guess the competition is strong |
| 16:10.35 | spldart | Yeah... He spends alot of the time on the same server I spend most of mine on.. And he's doin alot more hours than I am. Gotta get to Carnegie Hall. |
| 16:10.53 | PaulB_ | assuming the interest is the same it was last year |
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| 16:14.23 | brlcad | PaulB_: yeah, competition is going to be pretty strong |
| 16:14.59 | brlcad | you don't have to apply of course, but you were a pretty strong candidate last year so wanted to make sure you were aware |
| 16:15.36 | brlcad | I think you'd have a decent chance, and your skills probably/hopefully have even improved in the year since -- it's up to you :) |
| 16:15.53 | brlcad | but no, it's not too late -- submission deadline is the 5th |
| 16:16.16 | BulletCatcher | I thought it was the 3rd. |
| 16:16.31 | BulletCatcher | This Friday. |
| 16:19.06 | PaulB_ | brlcad: I know it is , but I also know what it means showing up close to the deadline :) |
| 16:20.20 | brlcad | BulletCatcher: ooh, mebbie |
| 16:20.22 | PaulB_ | I expected that it would be *a lot * harder this year so actually my first choice was NetSurf because I didn't know if my studies would leave my time for more applications |
| 16:20.24 | brlcad | ~gsoctimeline |
| 16:20.25 | ibot | rumour has it, gsoctimeline is http://socghop.appspot.com/document/show/program/google/gsoc2009/timeline |
| 16:20.44 | brlcad | ahh, indeed, the 3rd |
| 16:21.22 | *** topic/#bzflag by brlcad -> http://cia.vc/stats/project/BZFlag || http://my.BZFlag.org/w/Getting_Help || Channel Logs: http://ibot.rikers.org/%23bzflag/ || http://ohloh.net/projects/189 || Latest Release: 2.0.12 (linux), 2.0.10 (everyone else) || GSoC2009 Student Application Deadline: April 3rd, hurry up! |
| 16:21.24 | PaulB_ | but I guess now I should give my best at bzflag too :) |
| 16:21.53 | brlcad | PaulB_: cool, glad to hear it |
| 16:22.28 | PaulB_ | I've seen that my last years choice is on the list again |
| 16:22.32 | brlcad | I frankly don't know if it'll be a waste of your time, and sincerely hope it's not -- but you were a strong candidate, so you are welcome |
| 16:22.38 | PaulB_ | but it's not one of the top priority |
| 16:22.47 | brlcad | mm, which was that? |
| 16:22.53 | PaulB_ | enhanced server listing |
| 16:22.58 | brlcad | ah, hm |
| 16:23.01 | brlcad | right |
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| 16:46.59 | joevano | Czesc PaulB_ |
| 16:47.24 | PaulB_ | Czesc joevano |
| 16:47.49 | joevano | btw this is donny_baker from last year.. |
| 16:47.58 | joevano | chnaged my nick |
| 16:47.59 | PaulB_ | I didn't recognize you, you changed your nick :) |
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| 16:48.26 | joevano | yeah, i just realized it |
| 16:48.54 | joevano | you were probably thinking "who is this stranger greeting me in polish" :P |
| 16:49.02 | PaulB_ | but I thought it was you becasue of the polish greeting :) |
| 16:49.04 | PaulB_ | again |
| 16:49.10 | PaulB_ | the same :P |
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| 17:04.14 | nightstrike | brlcad, I've changed my proposal to have three objectives in it... |
| 17:04.21 | nightstrike | can u please tell me if it's alright? |
| 17:11.57 | *** join/#bzflag JeffM (n=Jeff@bzflag/projectadmin/JeffM) |
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| 17:25.46 | nightstrike | the current implementation of the openGL modularization is libOgl ? |
| 17:25.51 | nightstrike | what's the name? |
| 17:26.05 | JeffM | there is no current implementation |
| 17:26.35 | nightstrike | so I get to name it whatever I want? :P |
| 17:26.44 | JeffM | no |
| 17:26.44 | nightstrike | promises to give a decent name |
| 17:26.50 | JeffM | whatever we approve ;) |
| 17:27.16 | blast007 | libAwesome |
| 17:27.19 | trepan | src/ogl/libGLKit.a would be the closest |
| 17:27.29 | trepan | blast007: been using that wm? :) |
| 17:27.33 | nightstrike | yeah, I saw that and got confused |
| 17:27.51 | nightstrike | howz libOpenGL ? |
| 17:28.01 | nightstrike | uhm...misleading |
| 17:28.07 | JeffM | I'd actualy just call it like RenderSystem |
| 17:28.12 | JeffM | cus it may not be GL later |
| 17:28.15 | nightstrike | yeah |
| 17:28.23 | nightstrike | libRenderSystem ? |
| 17:28.25 | JeffM | and it does not have to be a lib |
| 17:28.28 | nightstrike | yes |
| 17:28.40 | nightstrike | what other alternatives do I have? |
| 17:29.07 | JeffM | code in a dir that gets built into the client ;) |
| 17:29.13 | nightstrike | :| |
| 17:29.18 | JeffM | it's only going to be used by ONE thing |
| 17:29.43 | nightstrike | hmmm... this is going to be a lot more easier than I thought :| |
| 17:29.58 | JeffM | that's what I've been saying, the GL proejct is the simplest one of them all ;) |
| 17:30.02 | JeffM | it's just MOVING things |
| 17:30.09 | nightstrike | so I make a new directory src/render and copy-paste code over to it? |
| 17:30.22 | JeffM | and make it have a cleaner API sure |
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| 17:30.26 | JeffM | but I'd talk with the others too |
| 17:30.31 | JeffM | maybe libs are easier to deal with |
| 17:30.34 | JeffM | I dunno |
| 17:30.41 | trepan | the rest of the dirs use libs |
| 17:30.44 | JeffM | yeah |
| 17:30.46 | JeffM | so maybe a lib |
| 17:30.49 | JeffM | static for sure |
| 17:30.53 | JeffM | it dosn't need to be dynamic |
| 17:30.55 | trepan | src/net, src/ogl, src/... (all of them compile to libs?) |
| 17:31.03 | brlcad | there's no reason it can't just go into one src/ogl |
| 17:31.19 | JeffM | trepan: yeah but most of those are used in more then one exe |
| 17:31.22 | trepan | so the ogl/ geometry/ scene/ separation, is that to die? |
| 17:31.24 | JeffM | or should be at least |
| 17:31.39 | JeffM | I'd keep that seperation inside whatever lib is made |
| 17:31.44 | JeffM | since it is logical |
| 17:32.02 | trepan | JeffM: ogl? scene? geometry ... 1 exec (not counting the nebulous bzrobots :) |
| 17:32.31 | JeffM | yeah those are the ones that should be moved, it was the others, net, common, date, etc.. |
| 17:34.01 | brlcad | you can keep the separation and still be in src/ogl .. just doesn't make much sense to me to have a dir with a couple files in it |
| 17:34.19 | brlcad | especially when that projects goals are exactly what src/ogl/README documents that it is for |
| 17:34.36 | trepan | brlcad: you talking about src/data/buildDate.cxx ? :) |
| 17:34.52 | brlcad | trepan: I hate that thing |
| 17:34.58 | JeffM | I was thinking about 3d ;) |
| 17:35.18 | JeffM | I think the only reason date is seperate is cus it gets changed with every build, so you don't have to rebuild a big section |
| 17:35.29 | JeffM | like common or recompile an exe |
| 17:35.40 | nightstrike | I'd like to try out what brlcad is suggesting, move everything to src/ogl, and keep the distinctions there itself |
| 17:35.48 | brlcad | yeah, that's the reason .. technical detail why it exists, not logical/organizational reason :) |
| 17:36.45 | brlcad | src/3d does have much of the same purpose -- there's probably not much reason to have both other than src/3d is high-level and src/ogl is low-level |
| 17:36.55 | JeffM | yep |
| 17:37.26 | brlcad | nightstrike: so if what you're refactoring is a high-level construct, it goes to 3d, if it's a lower level facility, src/ogl |
| 17:37.39 | brlcad | still, not another dir :) |
| 17:37.45 | nightstrike | :) |
| 17:38.06 | JeffM | appears to have seriously pissed of his hampster |
| 17:39.12 | nightstrike | hmmm... |
| 17:39.31 | nightstrike | has a bad feeling he wont be able to pump in too much detail into this proposal :| |
| 17:39.55 | nightstrike | I'll prepare one by tonite hopefully, please review it for me whenever you guys are free |
| 17:40.55 | trepan | render/(spatial/ gui/ scene/ fonts/ textures/ nodes/ utils/) ... could set it up something like that |
| 17:41.15 | trepan | put 3d/ scene/ geometry/ ogl/ as subdirs to render/ |
| 17:41.33 | JeffM | dude, just be a mentor allready ;) |
| 17:41.47 | nightstrike | wow |
| 17:41.52 | trepan | i've got enough shirts :) |
| 17:42.06 | JeffM | so give it away as a present |
| 17:42.12 | *** join/#bzflag Will07c5 (n=Will07c5@63.252.66.101) |
| 17:42.19 | JeffM | or enter brlcad's address |
| 17:42.24 | blast007 | hehe |
| 17:43.22 | brlcad | you don't have to accept the t-shirt |
| 17:43.22 | JeffM | we won't even asign you a student |
| 17:43.37 | JeffM | you can just do what you are gonna do anyway |
| 17:43.43 | brlcad | is the address even required? |
| 17:43.58 | brlcad | put my p.o. box, whatever |
| 17:44.37 | brlcad | I'll take two shirts :) |
| 17:44.58 | trepan | heh, sign up learner as a mentor |
| 17:45.08 | brlcad | hehe |
| 17:45.49 | nightstrike | do all selected students get a bzflag t-shirt? :P |
| 17:46.11 | JeffM | yeah |
| 17:46.20 | nightstrike | neat! |
| 17:46.29 | nightstrike | is gonna work extra hard on his proposals |
| 17:46.52 | JeffM | we'll also send you a bzflag shirt |
| 17:46.59 | JeffM | cus I got too many under my desk |
| 17:47.04 | nightstrike | alright! :D |
| 17:47.27 | nightstrike | how do you get em printed? as in... funding? |
| 17:47.45 | JeffM | our first SOC funded the first round of shirts |
| 17:47.51 | nightstrike | aaah yes... |
| 17:47.59 | JeffM | I'm on the third round that's been soly funded by profits from the other sales |
| 17:48.04 | nightstrike | $500 per student for the mentoring org eh? |
| 17:48.05 | brlcad | he pees out "bzflag" on a white tee, waits for the stain to set in, sends it out |
| 17:48.12 | nightstrike | neat |
| 17:48.14 | JeffM | I we have like 600$ bucks in paypal |
| 17:48.17 | nightstrike | LOL |
| 17:48.37 | nightstrike | I have some friends who do professional designing |
| 17:48.45 | brlcad | there's like 2k from last year in an account |
| 17:49.10 | brlcad | hopes we can get the org set up this year |
| 17:49.16 | JeffM | so do I |
| 17:49.18 | brlcad | get an account set up to put the funds into |
| 17:49.22 | JeffM | I hate leaving this money in paypal |
| 17:49.33 | JeffM | doesn't remeber the paypal password |
| 17:49.34 | brlcad | who wants to be the bzflag treasurer? :) |
| 17:49.49 | joevano | JeffM: more secure that way :P |
| 17:49.54 | brlcad | heh |
| 17:49.59 | JeffM | it'll probably be ether you or me, cus we've been the ones to deal in the past |
| 17:50.13 | JeffM | joevano: I have it at work, I stayed home today |
| 17:50.27 | JeffM | it's really close to 600 |
| 17:50.36 | JeffM | we have enough for a nother run if we want |
| 17:50.43 | JeffM | but we haven't sold our existing ones |
| 17:50.55 | joevano | need to dump the shirts we got though |
| 17:51.01 | JeffM | yeah |
| 17:51.10 | JeffM | I may put them on sale when summer gets closer |
| 17:51.12 | JeffM | to clear em out |
| 17:51.30 | JeffM | another hoodie run before winter would be nice |
| 17:51.57 | JeffM | maybe pay saturos some of the soc money to make a new design |
| 17:52.04 | JeffM | gots some ideas |
| 17:52.25 | Will07c5 | yay free shirts |
| 17:52.38 | nightstrike | one more thing, is it wise to make a render class, and then do all graphics related stuff through it? |
| 17:52.40 | Will07c5 | has stopped buying shirts since he got into college |
| 17:52.55 | nightstrike | too |
| 17:52.56 | JeffM | nightstrike: that's kinda the point |
| 17:53.04 | nightstrike | hmm...okies |
| 17:53.18 | JeffM | 1) that's the one class we take out to make the client headless. |
| 17:53.30 | JeffM | 2) that's the one class we derive and hook into a real engine, |
| 17:53.42 | JeffM | now that class can contain and spit out other classes |
| 17:53.44 | JeffM | for sure |
| 17:53.49 | JeffM | it dosn't need to be a single monster |
| 17:53.59 | JeffM | but it should be the one basic render "thingy" |
| 17:54.36 | JeffM | ahahah, I can use SOC to get rid of the last of the blue shirts :) |
| 17:55.33 | *** join/#bzflag ssss (i=zckns@h1342075.stratoserver.net) |
| 17:55.36 | JeffM | one of my origonal ones has turned teal in the wash |
| 18:06.18 | *** join/#bzflag blackpearl (i=yubld@h1342075.stratoserver.net) |
| 18:23.37 | trepan | brlcad: going through some FIXME's, have a suggestion for "http://trepan.bzflag.bz/LuaBzOrg.lua"'s new home? scripts.bzflag.org ? |
| 18:25.46 | JeffM | you can do resources.bzflag.org/scripts right now if you want |
| 18:26.16 | trepan | and how to access it? (via a bzflag.bz acconut) |
| 18:26.18 | trepan | *account |
| 18:26.33 | JeffM | you know where the fourm is? |
| 18:26.43 | trepan | /usr/web/my.bzflag.org/resources/ ? |
| 18:26.46 | JeffM | yeah |
| 18:27.01 | JeffM | the image uploader is in there too |
| 18:27.11 | trepan | odd, didn't think i'd have write perms there ... thanks |
| 18:27.19 | jorgenpt | ~gsoctimeline |
| 18:27.19 | ibot | gsoctimeline is, like, http://socghop.appspot.com/document/show/program/google/gsoc2009/timeline |
| 18:27.20 | JeffM | that's suposed to be the "crap we download to clients" section |
| 18:32.40 | *** join/#bzflag black_pearl (i=iceec@h1342075.stratoserver.net) |
| 18:33.28 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03trepan * r19560 10/trunk/bzflag/src/lua/LuaBzOrg.cxx: |
| 18:33.28 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: * moved the LuaBzOrg script source: |
| 18:33.28 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: from: http://trepan.bzflag.bz/LuaBzOrg.lua |
| 18:33.28 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: to: http://my.bzflag.org/resources/scripts/LuaBzOrg.lua |
| 18:33.49 | trepan | resources.bzflag.org didn't seem to work ... |
| 18:35.09 | *** join/#bzflag LV-426_ (n=void@77.127.128.203) |
| 18:40.35 | LV-426_ | hello - would porting a *minimal* version of bzflag to android fit the GSoC time scale ? |
| 18:40.56 | JeffM | you want to port our game to java? |
| 18:41.08 | JeffM | that's a new proejct on it's own |
| 18:41.26 | JeffM | you are more then welcome to do it, but I would not say it's something that we'd do for SOC |
| 18:41.34 | JeffM | I dare say it's not even something we'd want to maintain |
| 18:41.42 | JeffM | 2 codebases would suck |
| 18:42.08 | JeffM | trepan: perhaps the DNSs never got moved over right, it used to |
| 18:42.14 | JeffM | brlcad can hook you up then |
| 18:43.06 | JeffM | LV-426_: not to mention the fact that I dont' think any mentors have an android phone, or are competenent android developers to work on the project with you |
| 18:43.20 | LV-426_ | i was hoping a cpp->uml->java or otherwise similar translator could save some time... i guess you're saying the additional user base isn't worth the effort ? |
| 18:43.33 | JeffM | it wouldn't be the same game |
| 18:43.50 | LV-426_ | i have access to a device - that's why i'm pitching the idea |
| 18:43.52 | JeffM | it'd be "an android game that was inspired by bzflag" |
| 18:43.55 | JeffM | oh I'm sure you do |
| 18:44.07 | JeffM | but when SOC is over, how do we maintain that? |
| 18:44.21 | JeffM | how do we keep it updated each time we make a change to the main game? |
| 18:44.33 | LV-426_ | a community of course ; ) |
| 18:44.40 | adityav | what about arch differences? x86 vs ARM ? |
| 18:44.48 | JeffM | there are lots of diffs |
| 18:45.13 | JeffM | basicly it comes down to this, LV-426_ a NUMBER of portable platforms have been mentioned by people, and we have declined |
| 18:45.24 | JeffM | it is outside what we wish to do with the bzflag project |
| 18:45.49 | JeffM | we would be happy to see another project be created to service that, but it won't be part of our project |
| 18:46.03 | JeffM | we have enough to do with the computer platforms we support now |
| 18:46.03 | LV-426_ | cool. i'll have another look around to see if I can come up with anything better |
| 18:46.25 | JeffM | the same thing came up with the various consoles, iPhones, etc.. :) |
| 18:47.05 | blast007 | even the nokia N800, which doesn't have 3D hardware acceleration ;) |
| 18:47.09 | LV-426_ | just out of curiosity - how much ( percent ) do you think of the code base could be automatically ported ? ( if any at all ) |
| 18:47.12 | JeffM | now, BZADMIN on the phone.. THAT may be usefull ;) |
| 18:47.27 | JeffM | LV-426_: 0 to 3% |
| 18:47.31 | JeffM | bzflag is old and fugly |
| 18:47.38 | LV-426_ | hehe |
| 18:47.45 | JeffM | I'm not joking |
| 18:47.54 | LV-426_ | ok - i'll snap back to reality then. |
| 18:48.04 | JeffM | I don't know how well C++ to java translators work |
| 18:48.12 | JeffM | but there is a lot of stuff we do that java dosn't |
| 18:48.16 | JeffM | lots of old c stuff, etc.. |
| 18:48.28 | JeffM | I could not imagine the translatd code being prety at all |
| 18:48.59 | adityav | Actually, there is a new market of x86 based mobile platforms..( google MID, Atom, and the device i own, AIGO P8860 ) BZFlag can work on it... |
| 18:49.14 | LV-426_ | well - thing is you *could* compile to ARM parts you need but you'll have to have root access or a developers device to install ... that is until they really set the platform free |
| 18:49.26 | adityav | my AIGO P8860 supports OpenGL 1.5 (full, nt ES ) |
| 18:49.37 | *** join/#bzflag Greywhind (n=Greywhin@128.148.77.114) |
| 18:50.31 | JeffM | LV-426_: that is not an offiicaly supported feature, and we won't be going around googles rules for any proejct ;) |
| 18:51.27 | LV-426_ | were you serious about a portable version of BZadmin ? |
| 18:52.04 | JeffM | not really |
| 18:52.07 | JeffM | it's more of a triviality |
| 18:52.19 | JeffM | people generaly don't seriously game on phones |
| 18:52.26 | JeffM | they play them while waiting for things |
| 18:52.43 | JeffM | did some work for a cell phone game company once |
| 18:52.52 | JeffM | the studdies when perople use games is interesting |
| 18:55.59 | trepan | buses and bathrooms? |
| 18:56.18 | trepan | *busses |
| 18:56.40 | JeffM | yeah |
| 18:56.43 | JeffM | movie lines |
| 18:56.57 | JeffM | most people dont' play when traveling, it makes them sick, and they can't concentrate much |
| 18:57.06 | JeffM | that's why tetris like games are popluar |
| 18:57.25 | JeffM | the PSP/DS console system is the only place you get your traditional gameplay |
| 18:57.26 | adityav | what about UMPC, netbooks, MIDs? |
| 18:57.35 | JeffM | and that is mostly kids |
| 18:57.44 | JeffM | adityav: most people don't buy those to play games on |
| 18:57.50 | JeffM | tho bzflag runs fine on my netbook |
| 18:58.18 | JeffM | basicly if you have to hold it up in your hands, you usualy don't game on it, unless it's a console and you are 12 |
| 18:59.02 | JeffM | I also don't think bzflag would be fun on a super small screen |
| 18:59.05 | JeffM | there is too much going on |
| 18:59.14 | JeffM | the radar is such an important part of gameplay these days |
| 18:59.38 | JeffM | it would be better to simply make a new game, that had more simplified rules/UI that was optimised for that kinda thing |
| 18:59.40 | JeffM | one thumb |
| 18:59.42 | JeffM | etc.. |
| 19:00.09 | adityav | cool |
| 19:01.31 | adityav | i was browsing the source. It seems that BZClient doesn't exist as a seperate entity? |
| 19:03.06 | JeffM | it's called bzflag |
| 19:03.50 | JeffM | we make 3 executables, bzflag, bzfs, and bzadmin |
| 19:04.01 | JeffM | and bzrobots if you have them enabled |
| 19:04.16 | adityav | oki |
| 19:09.47 | adityav | while browsing the code, i am finding lots of typos, and simple stuff which can be done in more portable way... I was wondering how to make patches for them |
| 19:10.10 | adityav | since most of the modifications are totally unrelated to each other |
| 19:10.27 | *** join/#bzflag dexter- (n=whodaman@bzflag/player/Dexter) |
| 19:10.28 | JeffM | you make a patch and submit it |
| 19:10.34 | JeffM | using your svn tool |
| 19:11.00 | blast007 | we have a patch tracker on SF.net |
| 19:11.07 | JeffM | yep |
| 19:11.24 | adityav | well, there are could be 5 - 10 small unrelated changes.. I should make one big patch explaining all the changes? |
| 19:12.24 | adityav | i was thinking of going svn revert > change code > svn diff > submit as separate entry.. but I suppose that would be difficult to review. |
| 19:13.03 | JeffM | no |
| 19:13.06 | JeffM | one patch per please |
| 19:13.10 | JeffM | as we may not accept each change |
| 19:13.38 | JeffM | if you can't for some reason we'll deal, but one per change is best |
| 19:13.46 | JeffM | just like commting |
| 19:13.53 | JeffM | many small commits is way better then one big one |
| 19:13.57 | JeffM | even if each one is a single line |
| 19:14.32 | adityav | So, i follow my strat? :) |
| 19:15.32 | JeffM | or make one patch file and hand edit it :) |
| 19:15.36 | JeffM | it's just text |
| 19:17.58 | *** join/#bzflag PositiveG (n=sniper15@S0106002191dd19a8.gv.shawcable.net) |
| 19:24.58 | adityav | what is BZDB? |
| 19:25.52 | JeffM | a database of key value pairs |
| 19:25.59 | JeffM | it's what runs the client side config |
| 19:26.08 | JeffM | and sets up values between the server and client |
| 19:26.21 | JeffM | stuff like gravity, tank speed, etc.. |
| 19:26.30 | JeffM | most of the items are changable in real time |
| 19:28.33 | adityav | if i take a guess.. its this thing that has to be protected from cheating? |
| 19:28.43 | JeffM | no |
| 19:28.45 | JeffM | not at all |
| 19:28.53 | JeffM | there is allready a permisions system around it |
| 19:29.05 | adityav | ohk |
| 19:29.11 | JeffM | the reason there is cheating is because of how bzflag was writen |
| 19:29.17 | JeffM | it was not meant to be an internet game |
| 19:29.26 | adityav | :o |
| 19:29.45 | JeffM | the origonal cheat protection mechanism was "walk over to the cheaters desk, grab a ruler, slap him" |
| 19:30.00 | JeffM | basicly all the important logic, is done on the client |
| 19:30.08 | JeffM | it's up to you, to see if a shot hit you and you die |
| 19:30.17 | JeffM | and then you tell everyone else "I died" |
| 19:30.42 | JeffM | this is why the "libgame" project is so important |
| 19:30.59 | JeffM | once we have a lib that has a gamestate, we can use it on the server and take that logic out of the client |
| 19:31.34 | adityav | i get you |
| 19:31.50 | JeffM | libgame will be used by nearly every component of the project |
| 19:33.03 | adityav | wouldn't gamestate sync for every frame be determinal to FPS? |
| 19:33.22 | JeffM | you woudln't sync on each frame |
| 19:33.32 | JeffM | you'd let them run together with synced clocks |
| 19:33.39 | *** join/#bzflag TD-Linux (n=wheeeeee@96-42-68-26.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com) |
| 19:33.50 | JeffM | and just have the client state defer to the server state if there is a discrepancy |
| 19:34.09 | JeffM | for imporant events such as death, shots, and DR updates |
| 19:34.13 | *** join/#bzflag porxter (n=sgray@75-94-128-93.rch.clearwire-dns.net) |
| 19:34.39 | JeffM | it ain't rocket science, internet games have solved the majority of the problems long ago :) |
| 19:34.52 | JeffM | we just don't have the tools to build our rocket yet |
| 19:35.52 | JeffM | for most people with normal lag, and who arn't cheating, the differences between the server state and thier state should be minimal |
| 19:35.59 | JeffM | so they should not notice minor corrections |
| 19:36.15 | JeffM | high lag people will see large jumps, but hey, they are high lag poeple :) |
| 19:36.26 | adityav | i would like to know what CS uses |
| 19:36.35 | JeffM | CS as in? |
| 19:36.41 | JeffM | couterstrike or crystal space? |
| 19:36.56 | adityav | counter Strike :) |
| 19:37.03 | JeffM | it's a quake derivitive |
| 19:37.14 | JeffM | and it does nearly all the logic on the server |
| 19:37.19 | JeffM | even some of the "what to draw" logic |
| 19:37.34 | JeffM | and sends state updates to clients at a fixed "virtual" framerate |
| 19:37.54 | JeffM | then the client gets thos and does inerpolation to smooth it out to the real frame rate |
| 19:38.06 | JeffM | but then it's also a much more action oriented game |
| 19:38.16 | JeffM | so they need super fast responces |
| 19:38.34 | JeffM | the only kinds of cheating that can be done there are aimbots and dodgebots |
| 19:38.52 | trepan | which is ideally what bz would want |
| 19:39.04 | JeffM | and it's very hard to tell the diff beween an aimbot and a good player |
| 19:39.10 | adityav | what is punkbuster then? |
| 19:39.19 | JeffM | punkbuster tries to find aimbots |
| 19:39.26 | JeffM | and visual mods, etc.. |
| 19:39.35 | JeffM | it's trying to get the LAST set of cheats |
| 19:39.43 | JeffM | and even it isn't perfect |
| 19:39.50 | JeffM | IMHO it's not worth it for what it does |
| 19:39.58 | adityav | oh |
| 19:40.02 | JeffM | and would be pointless in an open source world |
| 19:40.16 | JeffM | you'd just mod the code for the screenshoter ;) |
| 19:40.31 | adityav | :P |
| 19:40.52 | JeffM | yes idealy we'd love to get to a supid client type of system |
| 19:41.15 | JeffM | but we don't do well with large scale changes like that, so it's always baby steps |
| 19:41.42 | JeffM | the flexability is obvious, look at how many CS mods are server only :) |
| 19:42.49 | adityav | Agreed |
| 19:43.02 | JeffM | getting that state lib is the first step |
| 19:43.12 | JeffM | once we get it working with a shared client state |
| 19:43.22 | JeffM | then we do what we can to just start removing things from the client |
| 19:43.32 | trepan | you'd probably also want some scripting built into it (ex: provide hooks for a server-sourced client-executed script to adjust DR) |
| 19:43.34 | JeffM | eventualy you just have the client sending input changes to the server and that's it :) |
| 19:43.47 | JeffM | yeah scripting helps ;) |
| 19:44.08 | trepan | JeffM: i thought you weren't for the 'inputs-only' method |
| 19:44.20 | JeffM | no, I said I didn't understand it ;) |
| 19:44.32 | adityav | hehe |
| 19:44.37 | JeffM | I'm still not sure on how it handles lag, but I understand it more now |
| 19:44.53 | JeffM | I had my shot branch, just sending "hey I shot" to the server instead of a shot update message |
| 19:44.55 | JeffM | it worked out ok |
| 19:45.02 | JeffM | the rest of the branch.. not so much |
| 19:45.16 | trepan | much easier when game 'frames' are used |
| 19:45.23 | JeffM | yeah |
| 19:45.29 | JeffM | you need that virtual famerate thingy |
| 19:45.46 | *** join/#bzflag jcp (n=jw@unaffiliated/javawizard2539) |
| 19:46.08 | JeffM | perhaps I'll learn to understand it more in my experiements |
| 19:46.38 | adityav | one more thing, which minimum speced platfrom is the game targetted towards? |
| 19:46.44 | JeffM | slow |
| 19:46.56 | JeffM | techincaly we havent' said we have desuported software rendering |
| 19:47.13 | JeffM | tho we don't try to make it super fast ether |
| 19:47.31 | Winny | "We've desupported software rendering" |
| 19:47.34 | Winny | k, it's been said |
| 19:47.37 | JeffM | heh |
| 19:47.48 | JeffM | we have said, that we require GL 1.2 or better |
| 19:47.59 | JeffM | 2.0.x supports GL 1.0 |
| 19:48.06 | trepan | i think it's GL v1.1 |
| 19:48.25 | JeffM | I thought I pulled the 1.1 stuff and left it at 1.2 |
| 19:48.29 | JeffM | everyone has 1.2 |
| 19:48.39 | JeffM | well at least the 3dFX stuff is gone :) |
| 19:49.05 | JeffM | adityav: for sure we don't require shaders (yet) |
| 19:49.11 | adityav | damm |
| 19:49.12 | trepan | just pulled a 1.1 check from bzfgl.h yesterday (and added a runtime check for 1.1 in bzflag.cxx) |
| 19:49.26 | JeffM | you can make it 1.2 if it's simpler |
| 19:49.36 | JeffM | heck I could even be convinced for 1.5 :) |
| 19:50.02 | JeffM | adityav: there is a LARGE group of people playing bzflag using onboard integrated video |
| 19:50.11 | JeffM | i815, etc.. |
| 19:50.13 | trepan | ya, there are still some GL_VERSION_1_2 checks (ex: SphereSceneNode.cxx) |
| 19:50.23 | trepan | (which are useless, now that glew.h is always used) |
| 19:50.28 | JeffM | heh |
| 19:50.33 | JeffM | hugs glew |
| 19:50.37 | adityav | 1.4 had major additions. I think its supported by even 810? |
| 19:51.00 | JeffM | thats why I said I could be convinved to go to 1.5 |
| 19:51.04 | *** join/#bzflag bier (n=bier@p54A55222.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 19:51.14 | adityav | remembers playing Q3A on i810 |
| 19:51.21 | JeffM | heh |
| 19:51.25 | JeffM | NV1 man... |
| 19:51.49 | JeffM | I wish I still had that thing |
| 19:52.00 | adityav | I still hav it |
| 19:52.10 | JeffM | an 810 ain't that old |
| 19:53.49 | trepan | GLv1.2 shall be the new minimum |
| 19:53.56 | JeffM | cool |
| 19:54.06 | adityav | well it was my 1st PC. PIII 500 + 64MB SD. I Still remember the time i 1st tried installing Directx7 on it, which was required by some game. Downloaded the setup to desktop |
| 19:54.14 | JeffM | even windows 98 shipped with software GL 1.2 |
| 19:54.30 | JeffM | adityav how old are you? |
| 19:54.39 | adityav | and was wondering why the hell the game was saying "directx not found " |
| 19:54.40 | adityav | :P |
| 19:54.47 | adityav | i am 20 |
| 19:55.23 | JeffM | damn.. I was in my last year of highschool when you were born |
| 19:55.53 | JeffM | at least you had APIs |
| 19:55.53 | adityav | 88 grad! woa |
| 19:56.04 | JeffM | may have done his math wrong |
| 19:56.05 | JeffM | 90 |
| 19:56.20 | adityav | my Bday is in may :) |
| 19:56.24 | JeffM | remembers apples "Quickdraw3D" |
| 19:57.12 | adityav | I read a lot about prev era. Specially the Famous Carmack letter about Directx |
| 19:57.22 | JeffM | he's wierd |
| 19:57.28 | JeffM | very opinionated |
| 19:57.35 | *** join/#bzflag mindnull (n=mindnull@24-247-249-58.dhcp.aldl.mi.charter.com) |
| 19:57.56 | JeffM | takes him a while to understand that not every game takes place in buildings with similar rooms :) |
| 19:58.32 | JeffM | but he was right, direct X 1 was crap |
| 19:58.35 | JeffM | but it got better |
| 19:58.41 | JeffM | way faster then openGL could make changes |
| 19:58.41 | adityav | well, he is brilliant in his field. Weird, he was. |
| 19:59.07 | JeffM | I'd say he was brilliant for his time |
| 19:59.15 | JeffM | these days I see better work coming out of other houses |
| 19:59.28 | JeffM | the crytech engine is soooo purdy |
| 20:00.02 | adityav | crytek engine has more research paper publications implemented than what i have even seen |
| 20:00.15 | JeffM | yeah they are smart guys |
| 20:00.45 | adityav | shaders are awesome stuff. |
| 20:00.52 | JeffM | they are a tool |
| 20:00.56 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03trepan * r19561 10/trunk/bzflag/src/ (12 files in 5 dirs): * OpenGL v1.2 is the new minimum version required (run-time checked) |
| 20:00.59 | JeffM | they give more controll |
| 20:02.23 | adityav | yea. The 1st time i coded one, i felt this combo of control and fear. I used to think a shader gone wrong would blast my GFX card into oblivion |
| 20:04.21 | JeffM | bzflag is split into 2 camps when it comes to hardware. a group that would like to see more stuff, and a group that likes it simple and uses older hardware |
| 20:05.15 | adityav | thats like the general story everywhere... |
| 20:05.16 | Erroneous | they're not mutually exclusive |
| 20:05.22 | *** join/#bzflag gamp (i=Soldat2d@85.93.144.10) |
| 20:06.14 | adityav | if more stuff means cool gfx, then they are usually exclusive |
| 20:06.38 | Erroneous | not for the game |
| 20:06.51 | *** join/#bzflag ParadoxG (n=chatzill@ug15.cs.ualberta.ca) |
| 20:07.02 | Erroneous | you can offer cooler graphics to people that have the hardware, and simpler ones to those that don't |
| 20:07.06 | trepan | they're not mutually exclusive, but providing fallbacks does make it more work to have both |
| 20:07.14 | Erroneous | sure, it's more work |
| 20:07.38 | Erroneous | to some extent that's alleviated in bzflag because we already have working simple graphics |
| 20:08.08 | Erroneous | unless you go nuts and add, oh, meshes or something :P |
| 20:08.26 | trepan | not fancy h/w needed there |
| 20:08.33 | trepan | s/not/no |
| 20:08.52 | Erroneous | there are plenty of cards that can't handle complex meshes |
| 20:09.14 | Erroneous | especially textured |
| 20:09.15 | trepan | in a timely fashion? |
| 20:09.22 | Erroneous | right |
| 20:09.25 | trepan | because that's a separate issuee ;) |
| 20:09.32 | Erroneous | ...true enough. |
| 20:09.59 | adityav | meshs are h/w issue? I used to think it was fill / pixel rate problem |
| 20:10.48 | Erroneous | more triangles is more work for the card |
| 20:11.10 | trepan | fancy rendering doesn't have to be done in the engine anymore ... the onus has moved :) |
| 20:13.24 | adityav | well, I am halfway through those 100+ files this re threw : 'gl[A-Z][a-zA-Z]*(.*)' . I guess i have enough understanding of code to make a proposal about it. But its sleep time in India. :) |
| 20:14.05 | adityav | i hope you guys will review it. bbye |
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| 20:36.05 | joevano | any potential GSoCers... please submit a proposal now |
| 20:36.16 | joevano | you can work on it after it is submitted |
| 20:36.39 | joevano | Google is trying to get a sense of how many proposals they are going to have |
| 20:37.45 | gamp | k |
| 20:39.40 | Wyk3d | what exactly does that mean ? what happens with people who submit later ? |
| 20:41.02 | JeffM | they are asking nicely |
| 20:41.08 | JeffM | but really submit early |
| 20:41.10 | JeffM | and tweak later |
| 20:41.15 | JeffM | then we get to read it |
| 20:41.26 | JeffM | last min. submisions suck |
| 20:41.34 | Cygal | I'll submit an empty application for now then :/ |
| 20:41.48 | JeffM | you don't have anything at all? |
| 20:41.51 | JeffM | not even a summary? |
| 20:41.57 | JeffM | and something about you? |
| 20:42.37 | JeffM | just so you all know, the later submision the less chance we have to help you with changes and discuss it. that means less changes to get in |
| 20:42.41 | JeffM | worry about the patch last |
| 20:43.31 | Cygal | I have mostly worked on the code base, to make sure I will be able to handle the project |
| 20:43.37 | JeffM | ok |
| 20:43.39 | Cygal | I already have a few patches, that's not the problem |
| 20:43.50 | JeffM | then just give us a quick overview for now |
| 20:44.03 | JeffM | an empty one will be treated as spam |
| 20:44.09 | Cygal | ok |
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| 20:47.38 | gamp | what is a current status of BZWorkBench? |
| 20:48.07 | JeffM | it has most of the backend, and a crapy UI |
| 20:48.13 | JeffM | and is missing a couple objects |
| 20:48.55 | gamp | and how can i help continue the effort? :) |
| 20:49.10 | JeffM | finsish the backend, and make a UI that dosn't suck :) |
| 20:49.26 | JeffM | it could also use some optimisation in the drawing |
| 20:49.39 | Erroneous | could use some optimisation all over |
| 20:49.57 | gamp | i would like to take it, what should i do? just write an application? |
| 20:50.14 | JeffM | well yeah you have to apply |
| 20:50.29 | JeffM | you would not be the only one applying for that project |
| 20:50.44 | JeffM | have you read our wiki page on what SOC students should do? |
| 20:50.47 | JeffM | with the checklist |
| 20:50.57 | gamp | yes, i have |
| 20:51.03 | Erroneous | Please be sure to include your IRC username and SF account name in the application. You will need to submit a patch in the next few days too. |
| 20:51.28 | gamp | ok |
| 20:51.38 | gamp | few days after 3rd of April? |
| 20:51.41 | Erroneous | course if you've read the checklist you should know that...just seems like a lot of people don't get it |
| 20:51.46 | JeffM | then yeah write up your proposal and submit it |
| 20:51.59 | Erroneous | before the 3rd if possible. if not, after is ok. |
| 20:51.59 | JeffM | we can accept patches after the application deadline |
| 20:52.02 | JeffM | but I'd not push it |
| 20:52.11 | gamp | :) |
| 20:52.12 | JeffM | after is harder, but we understand |
| 20:52.20 | Erroneous | yeah, if you have exams or something it's fine to push it into next week, just makes it harder for us |
| 20:52.38 | JeffM | and we are less inclined to choose sudents who make our lives harder ;) |
| 20:52.42 | Wyk3d | alright, submitted a ___VERY___ rough draft .. |
| 20:53.11 | Wyk3d | the overall outline is there i guess |
| 20:53.31 | Wyk3d | plus about half of the details |
| 20:53.32 | JeffM | better then nothin |
| 20:53.35 | JeffM | cool |
| 20:53.45 | JeffM | one of us will comment on it and then you can edit it as you need |
| 20:54.14 | JeffM | the bigest thing I can stress for students is "don't wait to try to get the 'perfect' application, submit early, edit often" |
| 20:54.24 | JeffM | we arnt' impressed by craming ;) |
| 20:55.48 | trepan | extra points for making an in-game world editor? :) |
| 20:56.13 | JeffM | negitive points for going outside your project proposal ;) |
| 20:56.35 | trepan | (unless said proposal has already been completed?) |
| 20:57.13 | JeffM | true |
| 20:57.33 | Erroneous | is not hot on ingame editors |
| 20:57.39 | JeffM | nor am I |
| 20:57.40 | Erroneous | maybe I just haven't seen one that didn't suck terribly |
| 20:57.42 | JeffM | they are usualy crapy |
| 20:57.53 | JeffM | "shoot to move a wall back" |
| 20:58.02 | JeffM | "no I want to move it 0.75 units!" |
| 20:58.31 | JeffM | or you add enough UI to the game to make it good, and you have a bloated game :) |
| 20:58.50 | JeffM | it does make some sort of sense for a RTS Game tho |
| 20:59.03 | JeffM | since your game interface is basicly an editor :) |
| 21:05.10 | trepan | "and you have a bloated game" -- didn't mean that it should be coded in c++ :) |
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| 21:05.36 | ParadoxG | Can we submit a patch to the game after the april 3 deadline if we can't quite finish it in time? |
| 21:06.04 | JeffM | we would prefer if you didn't if you can help it |
| 21:06.07 | JeffM | but we'll understand |
| 21:06.23 | JeffM | it helps to be here when you are working on it, to ask questions and stuff |
| 21:06.48 | JeffM | the further past the 3rd it is, the harder it is to rank you, and if you dont' get ranked you don't get picked |
| 21:07.01 | JeffM | part of the test of the patch is to see if you can manage your workload to do things in a timly manner |
| 21:07.23 | Wyk3d | btw for a patch it counts if i committed it myself to save you guys the trouble right ? :) |
| 21:07.40 | JeffM | yes, just put the rev number in |
| 21:07.55 | JeffM | ParadoxG: also, you patch dosn't have to be a real bug, or be super impressive |
| 21:08.16 | JeffM | it can be some enhancement, or change just to show us you know your coding basics and how to use our system |
| 21:08.36 | JeffM | I'd rather have a silly patch earily then an overly complex one late |
| 21:08.45 | JeffM | but that's not to say it should be a one line change or anything |
| 21:11.11 | JeffM | also if you are buys with schoolwork/other things. don't hide it, TELL us |
| 21:11.14 | JeffM | we can work with you |
| 21:12.03 | CIA-11 | BZFlag: 03trepan * r19562 10/trunk/bzflag/src/obstacle/MeshObstacle.cxx: * changed %f to %g in outputFloat() |
| 21:12.06 | trepan | woohoo, got my patch in early |
| 21:15.36 | JeffM | ponders throwing in the "auto fail if you disapear for more then 5 days with out telling us first" rule |
| 21:16.27 | Erroneous | would be totally ok with that, with appropriate exceptions for hospitals and that sort of thing |
| 21:16.32 | JeffM | yeah |
| 21:16.39 | trepan | 5 days -- working days? (was wondering why not 7) |
| 21:16.40 | JeffM | we can't have a repeat of last year |
| 21:16.49 | JeffM | trepan: cus I was going to say 3 first ;) |
| 21:16.53 | trepan | hehe |
| 21:17.03 | JeffM | you don't go "learn" boost for 17 days |
| 21:17.18 | ParadoxG | If I have approx 30~35 hours a week is that enough? |
| 21:17.27 | JeffM | that should be plenty |
| 21:17.36 | JeffM | we are very flexable in schedule |
| 21:17.43 | Erroneous | yes, if you can commit that time to bzflag it's fine |
| 21:18.03 | Erroneous | we don't require timecards :) |
| 21:18.04 | JeffM | as long as communciation keeps flowing about when you are going to work, etc.. |
| 21:18.06 | JeffM | yeah |
| 21:18.19 | JeffM | we just don't want people go drop off the face of the earth for extend times |
| 21:18.36 | JeffM | optimaly the student would be constantly commiting as they work |
| 21:18.49 | JeffM | and that's a great indication to us of how they are doing |
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| 21:19.25 | Cygal | I also submitted a *really* rough draft ("Cygal: Lots o' bug fixing"), but it still needs a lot of work |
| 21:19.32 | JeffM | ok |
| 21:19.42 | JeffM | getting it in there is just the first step |
| 21:19.52 | JeffM | applying is a process not a single action ;) |
| 21:20.07 | Will07c5 | I might be going on a week long vacation at some point in the summer, that shouldn't be a problem as long as I tell you guys? (I'll probably have internet access but I don't know yet) |
| 21:20.18 | JeffM | Will07c5: we will wish you the best of time :) |
| 21:20.19 | Erroneous | right, no problem if we know about it |
| 21:20.29 | Cygal | I'll stick to the "commit early, commit often" rule then :) |
| 21:20.30 | Will07c5 | ok cool |
| 21:20.31 | JeffM | everyone goes on vacation |
| 21:20.41 | Erroneous | always a good idea to have a vacation during your vacation :) |
| 21:20.54 | Cygal | do you have a lot of persons on the bug squishing project? |
| 21:21.04 | JeffM | there are a couple |
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| 21:21.22 | JeffM | Will07c5: one thing I'm pondering this year is having each student set up a google calender and share it with the mentors |
| 21:21.30 | JeffM | then we can just know when to expect you etc.. |
| 21:21.34 | Will07c5 | I have one |
| 21:21.45 | JeffM | and maybe after each day, you put a little summary of what you did that day, etc.. |
| 21:21.45 | Will07c5 | I just don't use it much, but that could change ;) |
| 21:21.56 | joevano | ~JeffM++ |
| 21:22.00 | joevano | super idea |
| 21:22.00 | JeffM | then everyone has the same expectations |
| 21:22.25 | Cygal | communication looks vital for the gsoc, indeed |
| 21:22.32 | JeffM | depends on the proejct |
| 21:22.48 | JeffM | some of them like the "send the student off to do work and come back at the end" method |
| 21:23.00 | JeffM | where the student only works one on one with a mentor |
| 21:23.01 | Cygal | sounds quite risky |
| 21:23.05 | JeffM | it can be |
| 21:23.13 | Will07c5 | I wouldn't like that since I wouldn't know if I was doing everything right |
| 21:23.13 | JeffM | but for some projects that's how normal dev goes |
| 21:23.18 | JeffM | they are mostly the patch based systems |
| 21:23.30 | JeffM | Will07c5: you won't do everything right |
| 21:23.31 | JeffM | ever ;) |
| 21:23.40 | JeffM | yeah we will mentor as a group |
| 21:23.42 | Will07c5 | exactly :P |
| 21:23.49 | Erroneous | yeah, that was how my project was. sent it all in in August. at that time there was no mid-term eval either |
| 21:23.56 | JeffM | you will be assigned a mentor, but that's just for the final review, that all other mentors will review first. |
| 21:23.57 | Erroneous | I think I spoke to my mentor twice |
| 21:24.10 | Cygal | leaves: good night guys |
| 21:24.11 | JeffM | we want you to commit all the time |
| 21:24.12 | Erroneous | is an ex-gsoc student |
| 21:24.14 | JeffM | see ya |
| 21:24.37 | JeffM | if your code is risky for some reason, make a branch and commit to that, then merge |
| 21:24.45 | JeffM | that's what version control is for :) |
| 21:25.28 | JeffM | oh and I should say this "if your computer has the possiblity of 'dying', please have a backup plan ready" |
| 21:25.47 | Will07c5 | all computers have the possibility of dying :P |
| 21:25.49 | JeffM | we've heard that story too much |
| 21:25.57 | JeffM | exactly, so have a backup plan |
| 21:26.14 | JeffM | we will all assume you have the hardware needed for your task |
| 21:26.15 | Will07c5 | my plan is to commit early and often |
| 21:26.37 | Will07c5 | after making sure the code builds of course :P |
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| 21:27.59 | JeffM | the more granular your changes the easier it is for to manage, and easier for everyone to track down problems |
| 21:30.10 | JeffM | hmmm how about auto fail if you mention git :) |
| 21:30.33 | Will07c5 | I've never used git |
| 21:31.05 | JeffM | then you obviously arn't a linus fanboy ;) |
| 21:31.29 | Will07c5 | nope, I don't use KDE either :P |
| 21:31.41 | Erroneous | doesn't support the autofail for git |
| 21:31.51 | Erroneous | supports autofail for being an annoying zealot though :) |
| 21:31.53 | JeffM | ooo that reminds me I need to install the kubuntu on the laptop |
| 21:31.58 | joevano | bzgit... |
| 21:32.14 | JeffM | autofail if you ask why Z is up.. how about that? |
| 21:32.30 | joevano | i can support that |
| 21:32.31 | Erroneous | naw, that's just an education thing |
| 21:32.36 | Erroneous | if you ask twice, sure |
| 21:32.40 | JeffM | ok, just a light beating then |
| 21:32.43 | Erroneous | yup |
| 21:32.47 | Will07c5 | I personally never really cared which direction Z was, I don't know why some people do |
| 21:33.01 | JeffM | it depends where you came from |
| 21:33.14 | Erroneous | world coordinates means z is up :) |
| 21:33.15 | JeffM | graphics systems usualy do Y as up, because that's how it is in screenspace |
| 21:33.38 | JeffM | yeah if you are talking about any kind of simulation of 'real world' stuff, you tend to do Z as up |
| 21:33.42 | JeffM | cus it is |
| 21:33.58 | gamp | why not down? :) |
| 21:34.18 | JeffM | humans tend to think of "up" as atainable and positive |
| 21:34.32 | JeffM | and up is where the heavens are, etc.. |
| 21:34.33 | Will07c5 | what if you are a pessimist? |
| 21:34.35 | Will07c5 | :P |
| 21:34.50 | JeffM | then you probably didn't have that big of an effect on world history ;) |
| 21:35.37 | gamp | anyway the y axis direction in 2d systems often is down nor up |
| 21:35.53 | JeffM | depends on the OS but yes |
| 21:36.14 | Will07c5 | yeah I always found that confusing |
| 21:36.15 | JeffM | IIRC old macOS had Y0 as the top of the screen |
| 21:36.26 | JeffM | they based it on how it was setup in video memory |
| 21:36.38 | gamp | yes |
| 21:37.19 | JeffM | is very familar with GL.Rotate(-90,1,0,0); at the end of every camera transform :) |
| 21:42.49 | gamp | why dont u focus on beauty but on quality of the bzflag? |
| 21:43.06 | JeffM | huh? |
| 21:43.23 | gamp | i've just played it) |
| 21:43.38 | JeffM | ok |
| 21:43.40 | gamp | and it is so.. not pretty |
| 21:43.46 | JeffM | yep |
| 21:43.52 | JeffM | it's old, like I said |
| 21:45.28 | gamp | hm |
| 21:45.45 | gamp | but why dont u focus on good graphics first? |
| 21:45.57 | JeffM | because good graphics do not make a fung ame |
| 21:45.59 | JeffM | game |
| 21:46.05 | JeffM | and people do what they want to do on the project |
| 21:46.08 | JeffM | we don't do asignments |
| 21:46.13 | Will07c5 | gameplay > graphics |
| 21:46.23 | Winny | patches welcome ;) |
| 21:46.26 | JeffM | also we tend to support lower end systems |
| 21:46.39 | JeffM | some devs work on graphics |
| 21:46.41 | JeffM | some don't |
| 21:46.43 | JeffM | it's up to them |
| 21:46.51 | gamp | lower end like pentium 100? :D |
| 21:46.54 | JeffM | yeah |
| 21:47.02 | JeffM | that was a supported system for a long while |
| 21:47.11 | JeffM | bzflag was made in 1993 |
| 21:47.17 | gamp | um |
| 21:47.33 | gamp | do you know the game soldat? |
| 21:47.41 | JeffM | I remember when I was happy to get a pentium MMX cus it worked better |
| 21:47.42 | JeffM | nope |
| 21:47.49 | Wyk3d | currently 1ghz is not enough for it :) |
| 21:47.51 | JeffM | different projects have different focuses |
| 21:48.11 | JeffM | ours is not super fancy graphics |
| 21:48.30 | JeffM | tho trepan is working to give us more tools to give us nicer visuals |
| 21:48.33 | ParadoxG | One of my favorite games is still the original starcraft, and it doesn't have good graphics anymore. |
| 21:48.45 | JeffM | the other problem is, we are not artists |
| 21:49.01 | gamp | i can agree with you paradox |
| 21:49.12 | gamp | starcraft is the super game |
| 21:49.18 | gamp | but its cute |
| 21:49.29 | JeffM | it also had a team of 100 paid artists ;) |
| 21:49.56 | JeffM | and a game designer |
| 21:50.23 | gamp | i think there are many students with good paint skills |
| 21:50.34 | JeffM | it is not summer of art |
| 21:51.25 | gamp | and its not enough to paint a good bridge to get such in the game :) |
| 21:51.40 | JeffM | most of the world graphics are done by the map |
| 21:51.48 | JeffM | so those people can run servers |
| 21:52.00 | JeffM | we ship very little for textures |
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