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| 00:48.36 | me1 | ~bzfquery |
| 00:48.46 | me1 | er... |
| 00:48.50 | me1 | ~bzflist |
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| 02:39.29 | brlcad | JeffM: hah |
| 02:39.59 | brlcad | i'd actually ran the update (and was all ready with the Ox) .. but hadn't done a full clean rebuild yet "just in case" |
| 02:40.07 | SportChick | tackles brlcad |
| 02:40.13 | brlcad | dodges |
| 02:40.35 | SportChick | lands on the hard ground and breaks her shoulder again |
| 02:40.35 | brlcad | wiggles his toes at SportChick |
| 02:40.50 | brlcad | aw, now that sounds owie |
| 02:41.50 | SportChick | brlcad: it is! don't dodge, meanie! |
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| 02:59.01 | spldart | heh |
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| 07:21.12 | *** topic/#bzflag is http://cia.vc/stats/project/BZFlag || http://my.BZFlag.org/w/Getting_Help || this channel is logged at http://ibot.rikers.org/%23bzflag/ || http://ohloh.net/projects/189 || 2.0.12 is the latest linux release, 2.0.10 for others || POSSIBLE LIST SERVER DOWNTIME SCHEDULED FOR 23-25 JAN 2009 |
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| 08:30.14 | *** topic/#bzflag is http://cia.vc/stats/project/BZFlag || http://my.BZFlag.org/w/Getting_Help || this channel is logged at http://ibot.rikers.org/%23bzflag/ || http://ohloh.net/projects/189 || 2.0.12 is the latest linux release, 2.0.10 for others || POSSIBLE LIST SERVER DOWNTIME SCHEDULED FOR 23-25 JAN 2009 |
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| 16:12.29 | RatOmeter | Microsoft layoffs: http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=21981 |
| 16:12.39 | RatOmeter | "...with multiple reports indicating that the entire Flight Simulator team has been axed." |
| 16:17.33 | MindstormsKid | O_O |
| 16:24.36 | [TK]D-Fender | DoD & DHS considers the 747 to be an unacceptable security risk |
| 16:34.58 | L4m3r | in other news, DoD and DHS struggle to stay relevant as the US transitions into an administration that doesn't push its agenda by fearmongering |
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| 16:43.25 | RatOmeter | interesting to note that, during the [hack-pffffht] Bush years, the DoD was fully embracing open standards in general and open source specifically |
| 16:44.18 | L4m3r | well, look at the alternative :P |
| 16:44.28 | L4m3r | "Ah crap, we've been owned again" |
| 16:45.06 | L4m3r | "Who installed this blasted BonziBuddy again?!" |
| 16:45.39 | RatOmeter | :) |
| 16:46.07 | RatOmeter | The US Navy, at least, seems to have gone all Red Hat |
| 16:46.21 | RatOmeter | where applicable, that is |
| 16:47.10 | RatOmeter | is writing radar code to run on Timesys at the moment |
| 16:50.45 | spldart | Ugh.. no politics in here please 8-x |
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| 17:47.34 | RatOmeter | spldart: sorry, just cleared my throat mid-sentence. Caught a cold |
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| 21:11.25 | leeguy92 | in bzflag, is the time synchronized between server and client at any time? is this for the timing of dead reckoning? |
| 21:15.11 | RatOmeter | leeguy92: I believe so, on both counts |
| 21:16.16 | JeffM | it fires those messages off every so often |
| 21:16.33 | JeffM | and it's so that it can stamp it's update messages with what it thinks the server time is |
| 21:16.33 | leeguy92 | ah |
| 21:16.48 | JeffM | it initaly just needs an offset in time |
| 21:16.51 | leeguy92 | u mean the UDP messages? |
| 21:17.02 | JeffM | the update messages, that are usualy UDP, yes |
| 21:17.05 | JeffM | shots too |
| 21:17.42 | JeffM | basicly stuff that moves |
| 21:18.08 | JeffM | cus not only do you need to know where it is, you need to know when it was there |
| 21:18.17 | leeguy92 | why is it that the shot positions need to be sent? aside from GM, they travel at a constant velocity, constant direction. couldn't you just send the client the shot Epoch, and the client could calc the current position at any point in time after that. |
| 21:18.37 | JeffM | yeah we could, we have an experment in doing that |
| 21:18.44 | JeffM | there are lots of things we COULD do |
| 21:18.47 | JeffM | but have not |
| 21:19.01 | JeffM | but it all requires that timing to be correct |
| 21:19.24 | JeffM | and an accurate state on the other systems |
| 21:19.29 | JeffM | since the shot comes from the tank pos |
| 21:19.46 | JeffM | if you can't get where that tank was at that time, your version will be off |
| 21:19.55 | JeffM | by sending the postion of the shot, you know where it was |
| 21:19.59 | leeguy92 | that's probably wat im gonna do with my game. it's in java. i reckon i have about |this much| room for it all to work at a reasonable fps. also, im thinking of sending server time updates with each UDP message. |
| 21:20.04 | JeffM | also, shot don't have to come from tanks. |
| 21:20.18 | JeffM | you should not have the client compute shots and kills, do it on the server |
| 21:20.25 | JeffM | bzflag is stupid to do it the way it does. |
| 21:20.26 | leeguy92 | why? |
| 21:20.32 | leeguy92 | ah, i know why |
| 21:20.35 | JeffM | cus it's easy to cheat ;) |
| 21:20.38 | RatOmeter | :) |
| 21:20.48 | JeffM | and that way you only have to do it once |
| 21:20.50 | JeffM | not on every client |
| 21:21.09 | RatOmeter | hey, it's distributed computing, redundant style |
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| 21:21.17 | leeguy92 | especially with the changeScore function...... |
| 21:21.20 | RatOmeter | er, call it High Reliability |
| 21:21.42 | leeguy92 | computing scores on the client, i think is silly. |
| 21:22.00 | JeffM | RatOmeter: it's a video game, not the cure for cancer |
| 21:23.17 | JeffM | distributed systems are viable when you want to replace low latency with high thruput or processing power |
| 21:23.35 | leeguy92 | i already got 15 classes in my program(this is gettin big) |
| 21:23.44 | RatOmeter | just funnin' Jeff |
| 21:23.48 | JeffM | you feel 15 is big? |
| 21:23.50 | JeffM | wtf? |
| 21:23.59 | leeguy92 | for my history of java programs, yes |
| 21:24.01 | JeffM | RatOmeter: I know, but there have been others that have seriously proposed it |
| 21:24.05 | JeffM | leeguy92: wow |
| 21:24.12 | JeffM | yeah let me know when you get to the hundreds |
| 21:24.13 | leeguy92 | yeah, i haven't done much with java |
| 21:24.46 | leeguy92 | it's gotta be loaded as an applet. i don't want it to be saying Loading..... for ages. |
| 21:25.10 | leeguy92 | it's kinda a challenge of how small i can get the code |
| 21:25.44 | leeguy92 | it's become more about functionality now(as it should) |
| 21:26.02 | JeffM | even more reason to put as much code on the server as you can |
| 21:26.21 | JeffM | your client should just be a dumb display |
| 21:26.41 | leeguy92 | even for the player position calculations? |
| 21:26.53 | leeguy92 | the client's player |
| 21:27.06 | JeffM | if you make a general "moving object position computer" class |
| 21:27.14 | JeffM | you can use that for both remote and local moving objects |
| 21:27.18 | JeffM | the local one just gets more updates |
| 21:27.24 | JeffM | the math to move them is the same |
| 21:27.26 | leeguy92 | i have a MovingThing class |
| 21:27.40 | leeguy92 | which is subclassed by Shot and Tank |
| 21:27.45 | JeffM | then that should just be able to take a postion, vector, and time and do what it needs |
| 21:27.52 | JeffM | why do you have to subclass it? |
| 21:28.02 | JeffM | just have it take a refrence to a model to draw |
| 21:28.09 | leeguy92 | i dunno, i was in a java-ish mood |
| 21:28.20 | JeffM | just because you can subclass dosn't mean you should |
| 21:28.32 | JeffM | will they be the same other then the drawing code? |
| 21:28.55 | leeguy92 | the drawing code is handled by a class full of static methods called DrawingManager |
| 21:29.00 | leeguy92 | it's completely seperate |
| 21:29.07 | JeffM | then what is the big diff between tank and shot? |
| 21:30.09 | leeguy92 | Tank has a model(i added the flexibility for diff models) and also has gravity added into it's pos calculation |
| 21:30.25 | leeguy92 | some other constants are different like explodetime |
| 21:31.04 | JeffM | the thing that moves should not be the thing that draws |
| 21:31.10 | JeffM | then you can use the mover class on the server too |
| 21:31.18 | JeffM | or a headless bot implementation |
| 21:31.35 | JeffM | and tank logic for things like exploding and when to die, etcc can be on the server |
| 21:31.50 | JeffM | I'd just make it be a mover, with a flag that says "Gravity" and a ref to a drawable object |
| 21:31.56 | JeffM | if it dosn't have a ref, it's not drawable |
| 21:32.52 | leeguy92 | the explode thing is just for explode animation, btw, i just wanted somewhere to put the number, i thought the tankclass appropriate. |
| 21:32.52 | leeguy92 | also, the collision detection for the tank will take twice as long. |
| 21:33.18 | JeffM | it may |
| 21:33.25 | JeffM | depends on how in sync your server is |
| 21:33.36 | JeffM | you are thinking just like the bzflag author did |
| 21:33.41 | JeffM | where the client is the "game" |
| 21:33.42 | leeguy92 | because it checks the planar movement, and then depending on the result, it checks the UP/DOWN movemnt |
| 21:33.56 | JeffM | the entire game should be simulatable on the server |
| 21:34.02 | JeffM | at the very least |
| 21:34.17 | JeffM | if you want to keep concurent sims on the clients to help mask lag, that's fine too |
| 21:34.20 | leeguy92 | it would make sense, due to the lack of computing power of my client |
| 21:34.27 | JeffM | but they should know that they are ONLY for drawing |
| 21:34.34 | JeffM | it makes sense due to the nature of the internet ;) |
| 21:34.39 | leeguy92 | how about collision detection? |
| 21:34.51 | JeffM | do you want your game to be a cheatfest? |
| 21:35.09 | leeguy92 | no :( |
| 21:35.31 | JeffM | then you can only ever trust one computer |
| 21:35.32 | JeffM | the server |
| 21:35.39 | JeffM | that server has to have a complete state |
| 21:35.56 | JeffM | treat the clients like remote input/output terminals |
| 21:36.02 | leeguy92 | but seriously, what about collision detection. should i put ALL of that on the server? it seems like it could be pretty slow |
| 21:36.02 | JeffM | get it all working thru the server |
| 21:36.12 | JeffM | then look and see if it really is too visualy laggy to play |
| 21:36.25 | JeffM | at that point, you get a sim on the clients too, using the same code your server uses |
| 21:36.41 | JeffM | and use that for drawing inbetween updates. |
| 21:36.50 | JeffM | leeguy92: it's just math |
| 21:36.57 | JeffM | in games, drawing takes the most time |
| 21:37.13 | JeffM | try it and see |
| 21:37.22 | leeguy92 | the graphics are VERY simple btw. no lighting, no shadows etc... |
| 21:37.26 | JeffM | still |
| 21:37.51 | JeffM | how many divides does it take to fill in a 100pxX100px triangle? |
| 21:38.07 | JeffM | compared to a couple dot products and some multilies? ;) |
| 21:38.23 | JeffM | drawing ends up being a per pixel thing |
| 21:38.30 | leeguy92 | but dont most GPUs have hardware that scan-fills triangles in one cycle? |
| 21:38.31 | JeffM | after going thru a per triangle thing |
| 21:38.37 | JeffM | no |
| 21:38.46 | JeffM | they can streamline it sure |
| 21:38.48 | leeguy92 | GPUs are sweeeeeeeeeet anyway.:D |
| 21:38.57 | JeffM | but not one cycle for ANY triangle |
| 21:39.04 | JeffM | but still, the math is not that bad |
| 21:39.16 | leeguy92 | i think that's what the guy at radeonhd said. (i could be wrong) |
| 21:39.32 | JeffM | he probably meant that it "could" for some triangles |
| 21:39.49 | JeffM | sure if you have enough shader units to do all the resultant pixels |
| 21:40.27 | JeffM | but still, it sounds like you'll have more CPU power on your server |
| 21:40.33 | JeffM | cus it won't be an applet |
| 21:40.42 | leeguy92 | hmm, either way. i see what ur sayin about the dumb terminal idea. i did consider it, but was scared off by the collision detection. |
| 21:40.57 | JeffM | you have to write the code somewhere |
| 21:41.11 | JeffM | why should it matter where you execute it |
| 21:42.01 | leeguy92 | i was thinking it would be faster for each client to do it's own collision detection, rather than give it all to the server. |
| 21:43.07 | JeffM | sure, if you want to end up like bzflag |
| 21:44.23 | leeguy92 | so....when i press the forward key on my keyboard.....all that will do is send a forward command to the server, which will respond by changing the values it sends with UDP |
| 21:44.35 | JeffM | in the most basic way yeah |
| 21:44.55 | JeffM | eventualy what you want to do is, also send that forward command to your local copy of the simulation |
| 21:45.11 | JeffM | then when the server sends you back your UDP, you update your simulation with those |
| 21:45.18 | JeffM | if all is well, your sim, is the same as the server |
| 21:45.22 | JeffM | and you don't see a jump |
| 21:45.31 | JeffM | if not, well then at least you are in sync with the server now |
| 21:45.54 | JeffM | you mask the lag by keeping more then one sim |
| 21:46.03 | JeffM | it's just that the client sims always defer to the servers im |
| 21:46.04 | JeffM | sim |
| 21:46.31 | leeguy92 | hmm |
| 21:47.03 | JeffM | your local sim also dosn't have to be as complicated |
| 21:58.02 | KTL | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byr3hv11f6U&feature=related <- a guy made a electronics circuit/joystick himself for bzflag |
| 22:00.22 | JeffM | cus usb is to easy ;) |
| 22:03.23 | KTL | funny to see these clips about the game and recognising the players on the scorelists |
| 22:05.46 | leeguy92 | ok, now im gonna make an arcade booth for it |
| 22:08.08 | KTL | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8OaO2XrBsI&feature=related <- a bzflag advert with some more sense of style |
| 22:09.59 | leeguy92 | heh, cool |
| 22:17.39 | KTL | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uToNdjKjRmA <- and someone hacked a 2d thing "battlezuna" together using textures from bzflag |
| 22:18.20 | leeguy92 | DAMMIT, THAT WAS GONNA BE MY IDEA - BZ2D! |
| 22:18.26 | leeguy92 | but then i decided to make it 3d |
| 22:18.37 | me1 | KTL, blast007 did that. |
| 22:18.48 | me1 | It |
| 22:19.15 | me1 | It's called "battlezune," not "battlezuna" |
| 22:19.16 | me1 | :P |
| 22:19.26 | KTL | does it play? :) |
| 22:19.32 | me1 | ask him ;) |
| 22:19.40 | KTL | blast007, is it alive? :D |
| 22:21.32 | leeguy92 | blast007, r u alive? |
| 22:39.40 | JeffM | leeguy92: you defenatly arn't the first to come up with the idea for a 2d tank game ;) |
| 22:39.55 | JeffM | KTL: it was his test of using XNA on the zune |
| 22:41.23 | leeguy92 | i meant a 2d tank game with bzflag's textures/theme |
| 22:41.23 | JeffM | leeguy92: yours gonna look anything like this? http://www.opencombat.net/files/gpx01.avi |
| 22:41.50 | leeguy92 | damn avi codecs.........linux........DMCA......grr ;) |
| 22:41.58 | JeffM | it's divx |
| 22:42.01 | joevano | JeffM did that ;) |
| 22:42.19 | JeffM | linux shoudl be able to play divx dude, no dmca |
| 22:42.41 | leeguy92 | well totem still dont like it. for media, the default installs of fedora suck, i find. |
| 22:42.50 | leeguy92 | ubuntu is great for that |
| 22:43.00 | me1 | JeffM, love the music :P |
| 22:43.07 | JeffM | tis good music |
| 22:43.15 | JeffM | it's ball rollin music |
| 22:45.01 | me1 | I like the menu |
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| 22:52.49 | trepan | it seems as though the ABGR test in SceneRenderer goes unused |
| 22:52.56 | trepan | more dead code to remove? |
| 22:53.11 | JeffM | your the only one that understands that stuff ;) |
| 22:53.44 | trepan | heh, i didn't add it ... it just looks like the variable is never used |
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| 22:55.16 | trepan | killed off fogHack, figured i might as well remove any other cruft that i notice |
| 23:04.30 | KTL | wonders where JeffM is going to put his concept art, remembering some cute non-tank related pictures |
| 23:04.57 | JeffM | ? |
| 23:05.09 | me1 | o rite |
| 23:05.11 | me1 | i remember those |
| 23:05.19 | KTL | the index page of opencombat.net had something nice iirc, in the past |
| 23:05.35 | KTL | and there was a 3d girl, some renderings of her doing karate |
| 23:05.51 | JeffM | oh the poser stuff |
| 23:21.43 | JeffM | I've switched from art to writing in the freetime now |
| 23:32.48 | me1 | JeffM, I remember you were writing a short story, sci-fi, a while ago, I think the scene was hacking open a door or something? |
| 23:32.57 | JeffM | yes |
| 23:33.06 | JeffM | that was the intro fiction for OC:CW |
| 23:34.16 | me1 | you said you were "working on it" at the time- is there any more,? |
| 23:34.29 | JeffM | of that story no |
| 23:34.33 | JeffM | there are other stories |
| 23:34.37 | JeffM | current is starwars |
| 23:36.50 | me1 | ..do you have a site or anything? |
| 23:37.13 | JeffM | http://www.awesomelaser.com/sw/A_Less_Civilized_Age |
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| 23:37.18 | JeffM | chapters are at the bottom |
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