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| 00:49.53 | spldart | http://pastebin.bzflag.bz/m8e10bc6 |
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| 00:54.30 | trepan | spldart: glew problem persists |
| 00:54.50 | spldart | poopies... back to deb etch.. I forgot to pull glew version from lenny at work |
| 00:55.19 | trepan | i thought that you were going to try and use the one that is provided |
| 00:55.38 | trepan | might have to 'autoconf' |
| 00:56.20 | trepan | (to generate a new ./configure script from configure.ac) |
| 00:56.33 | spldart | I was checking to see if the new check, if I got the just of that right, would allow me to forget the --build the glew that came with bzflag - switch |
| 00:56.36 | spldart | anywho.. |
| 00:56.57 | spldart | I did a make clean, ./autogen.sh, ./configure --enable-debug, nice make |
| 00:57.03 | trepan | you mighten have updated your configure script |
| 00:57.16 | trepan | *might not |
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| 00:57.43 | trepan | grep GLEW_VERSION configure |
| 00:57.47 | trepan | that'll let you know |
| 00:58.20 | trepan | (no results => 'configure' was not updated) |
| 00:59.06 | spldart | At the prompt in the root dir? |
| 00:59.08 | spldart | if (GLEW_VERSION_3_0) { glewInit(); } |
| 00:59.11 | trepan | hm, reading your last line about 'make clean; ...', i guess it should have been updated |
| 00:59.43 | trepan | ./configure > log ; => pastebin? |
| 01:00.13 | spldart | working |
| 01:00.23 | spldart | should be ready in a minute :) |
| 01:02.25 | spldart | http://pastebin.bzflag.bz/m2fb73e79 |
| 01:03.28 | trepan | hm, detected that it isn't up to scratch, but didn't force the build option |
| 01:03.30 | trepan | one sec |
| 01:03.57 | trepan | heh, my bad |
| 01:04.29 | trepan | "no (missing or older...)" != "no" |
| 01:05.56 | spldart | So it see's I'm not up to snuff and should build the one included with src but doesn't force? |
| 01:06.53 | CIA-72 | BZFlag: 03trepan * r19212 10/trunk/bzflag/configure.ac: * fixed the glew_check test (test against "xyes") |
| 01:07.02 | trepan | next commit forced the build for me (when I faked the requirement as GLEW_VERSION_3_1) |
| 01:07.11 | trepan | ^^^ that commit ;-) |
| 01:07.29 | spldart | from ./configure on already started.. unless I should make clean again |
| 01:07.46 | trepan | svn up; autoconf; ./configure should do |
| 01:07.57 | spldart | ah |
| 01:08.05 | trepan | read the messages at the end of ./configure |
| 01:08.12 | trepan | make sure that the glew build has been forced |
| 01:08.39 | trepan | if not, i've done wrong ... again |
| 01:10.36 | spldart | I believe it did. But if it goes T.U. I'll retry with a cleaned up checkout to be sure. |
| 01:11.18 | trepan | easy to tell: ./configure => Build glew ........: yes |
| 01:11.41 | spldart | As I watch the build go by I'm seeing 'glew' 's going by so I'm feeling confident |
| 01:11.53 | trepan | ya, the -I, sounds good |
| 01:13.48 | spldart | in the lua's with the -I's now |
| 01:16.37 | spldart | Ah hah.. made all in bzflag... I'm on to bzrobots... that decides it right? success. |
| 01:19.54 | spldart | Yes! It's now succesful in implementing src glew |
| 01:20.04 | spldart | automagically |
| 01:20.41 | spldart | though I have to admit I just (svn up, ./configure debug, make) and that's all for this test |
| 01:22.23 | trepan | thanks for testing |
| 01:23.46 | spldart | no prob.. plays fine too. :) |
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| 01:34.26 | spldart | holy poop. 5 5's pwnz my fps terribly' |
| 01:35.32 | trepan | 5 5's ? |
| 01:36.47 | spldart | a private server ;) |
| 01:44.38 | trepan | what's in the world? |
| 01:45.08 | blast007 | it's your server |
| 01:45.24 | trepan | heh, ya |
| 01:45.27 | trepan | :55555 |
| 01:45.55 | trepan | been doing c++, still haven't gotten around to setting up configurable quality levels |
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| 02:01.28 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v spldart] by ChanServ |
| 02:02.13 | spldart | poop |
| 02:02.26 | me1 | trepan, fun, i can't seem to spawn :d |
| 02:02.36 | me1 | I spawn, and freeze |
| 02:03.00 | trepan | want a server restart ? |
| 02:03.11 | me1 | (I'm _guessing_ sub-zero fps, as it does update the view after a while) |
| 02:03.23 | me1 | What did the vars you set do? |
| 02:03.32 | trepan | disabled the collision octree |
| 02:03.38 | spldart | Did my last few lines appear before my apparent connection reset? When I start 2.0.x after running 2.99 I always hard lock X and have to kill two processes named bzflag just to get X back. |
| 02:04.18 | trepan | so 2.99 leaves an extra 'bzflag' lying around, or 2.0.x is making two of them? |
| 02:05.51 | trepan | and i'm getting autokicked for pausing too quickly :) |
| 02:05.55 | spldart | well... 2.0.x works fine if I don't run 2.99 first.. And I can kill all processes with 'bzflag' in them and still end up with a lock and 2 running .. it's weird |
| 02:06.18 | spldart | decides to not worry about it. |
| 02:10.29 | brlcad | woot, new firewall script is working like a charm |
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| 02:15.51 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v bryjen] by ChanServ |
| 02:21.07 | brlcad | blocks a player by name and even automatically track them across dynamic IP address changes |
| 02:22.10 | blast007 | lol, nice |
| 02:22.20 | trepan | for bzfs, bzbb ? |
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| 02:24.21 | brlcad | trepan: from the list server outright (ipfw) |
| 02:24.38 | brlcad | so blocked from the website and list services |
| 02:25.04 | trepan | sweet |
| 02:31.32 | spldart | ultra super mega "Kamehameha" style |
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| 02:57.41 | CIA-72 | BZFlag: 03trepan * r19213 10/trunk/bzflag/src/bzflag/MainWindow.cxx: |
| 02:57.41 | CIA-72 | BZFlag: * removed a couple of FIXMEs by adding the following BZDB 'hidden' variables: |
| 02:57.41 | CIA-72 | BZFlag: - blockExposeRecontext |
| 02:57.41 | CIA-72 | BZFlag: - blockResizeRecontext |
| 02:57.41 | CIA-72 | BZFlag: Linux (and possibly other setups), do not lose their GL context when |
| 02:57.42 | CIA-72 | BZFlag: the window is minimized or resized, so allow users to avoid the delays. |
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| 04:08.02 | blast007 | delusional_: get it working? |
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| 05:09.52 | Swigg_ | Blast007:ping! |
| 05:10.49 | blast007 | Swigg_: pong |
| 05:11.03 | Swigg_ | Blast: bzaddict seems to be a cheat server |
| 05:11.13 | Swigg_ | the umbrellas map |
| 05:11.26 | Swigg_ | sk3 is there now and admins are letting him play |
| 05:11.38 | Swigg_ | randomly banning people |
| 05:12.03 | blast007 | fun |
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| 05:28.26 | blast007 | I'd recommend that any server owners disable local registration/auth on their servers |
| 05:28.51 | blast007 | I belive that's being abused by Sk3letr0n now to do stuff like impersonation and poll bans |
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| 07:28.26 | SportChick | blast007: he still around causing trouble? |
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| 07:43.45 | Manu | hugs SportChick |
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| 09:04.35 | *** topic/#bzflag is Topic for #bzflag is: http://cia.vc/stats/project/BZFlag || http://my.BZFlag.org/w/Getting_Help || this channel is logged at http://ibot.rikers.org/%23bzflag/ || http://ohloh.net/projects/189 || 2.0.12 is the latest linux release, 2.0.10 for others |
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| 13:20.50 | RatOmeter | SportChick: I don't think he ever stopped causing trouble |
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| 18:22.17 | trepan | m |
| 18:22.22 | trepan | oops ;) |
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| 18:39.31 | brlcad | mm |
| 18:39.40 | spldart | lookout |
| 18:39.51 | brlcad | looks out the window, shrugs |
| 18:40.03 | spldart | mmHmm |
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| 19:00.27 | brlcad | oh, that reminds me |
| 19:00.50 | brlcad | Erroneous / JefferyM: finally got an old roll of film developed |
| 19:00.57 | brlcad | it's of the 2007 summit.. :) |
| 19:01.00 | JefferyM | hah |
| 19:01.09 | JefferyM | facebook it |
| 19:01.29 | brlcad | there's actually a couple really great shots |
| 19:01.36 | BulletCatcher | Film is *so* 19th century. |
| 19:01.47 | JefferyM | 20th really |
| 19:02.03 | JefferyM | that's when it was at it's height |
| 19:02.52 | JefferyM | there wasn't really any alternitive untill very late in the 20th |
| 19:03.05 | JefferyM | and the 21st is where it's basicly totaly gone. |
| 19:03.15 | brlcad | film still feels great and the quality of the photos is sublime compared to most digital's |
| 19:03.25 | brlcad | not totally, at least not yet |
| 19:03.34 | brlcad | at the consumer level, maybe |
| 19:03.35 | JefferyM | is it color or B/W ? |
| 19:03.44 | brlcad | pro-level still has a lot of film |
| 19:04.00 | JefferyM | depends what field |
| 19:04.01 | brlcad | it's color, I got digitals with it so just have to upload somewhere |
| 19:04.07 | brlcad | photography :) |
| 19:04.13 | JefferyM | journalism is highly digigal IIRC for transmisions |
| 19:04.27 | JefferyM | there are many fields for pro photo ;) |
| 19:04.32 | brlcad | it's certainly moving that way |
| 19:04.49 | JefferyM | for that kinda stuff digital makes a lot more sense in usability |
| 19:05.02 | BulletCatcher | It occurs to me that film, as such, may not have been invented until the 20th. Very early photography involved glass plates rather than flexible film. |
| 19:05.11 | brlcad | a top-end 16MP SLR is really hard to tell the difference against a top-end film |
| 19:05.29 | JefferyM | portrait and product photograpy I totaly agree with you, there aren't really digigal versions of stuff like 4x5 cams |
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| 19:06.34 | brlcad | BulletCatcher: first photographic film was invented in 1888 |
| 19:06.41 | brlcad | eastman/kodak lineage |
| 19:07.30 | brlcad | some say 1884, but it depends when you start counting |
| 19:08.28 | BulletCatcher | k |
| 19:09.06 | JefferyM | I still say you can't say it's "so" 19th, when it had it's height in the 20th |
| 19:09.11 | brlcad | JefferyM: and it's way cheaper to go all digital |
| 19:09.15 | JefferyM | I mean come on, Fotomats! |
| 19:09.23 | JefferyM | brlcad, for many yeah |
| 19:09.32 | JefferyM | materials cost in the long run is a lot less |
| 19:09.37 | JefferyM | likes his cannon camera |
| 19:09.47 | brlcad | cost of development alone, lifetime of a camera ... you could buy a 10k digital and still come out ahead |
| 19:10.04 | brlcad | loves his new nikon d90 |
| 19:10.26 | brlcad | you get the rebel xti? |
| 19:10.34 | JefferyM | no |
| 19:10.53 | JefferyM | S5IS |
| 19:11.05 | JefferyM | it's not a true "SLR" |
| 19:11.10 | brlcad | ah |
| 19:11.19 | JefferyM | but it works very well for my cheezy uses |
| 19:11.22 | brlcad | oh, one of the powershot lines |
| 19:11.27 | JefferyM | mostly cus it's tiny as hell |
| 19:11.28 | JefferyM | yeah |
| 19:11.51 | JefferyM | but it still holds like an SLR |
| 19:12.02 | brlcad | nods |
| 19:12.09 | JefferyM | I don't use it that much |
| 19:12.25 | JefferyM | and at 300$ it's a prety good camera |
| 19:13.26 | BulletCatcher | The waterproof housing for my Canon A590 arrived yesterday. I'll use it while snorkeling in the Caribbean next week. |
| 19:14.02 | BulletCatcher | I don't expect to have much internet access. |
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| 20:09.13 | Think_Differentl | yay, film |
| 20:22.52 | spldart | changes topic to bzflag... better on film or digital capture. ;~) |
| 20:24.29 | JefferyM | have trepan make you a film grain shader in lua to proccess the entire frame :) |
| 20:25.11 | spldart | hehe |
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| 21:08.10 | iShock | so hi |
| 21:10.11 | me1_ | o |
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| 21:16.26 | remote | hi |
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| 21:17.24 | *** join/#bzflag red-der1 (n=red-der@p5DC5BE73.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 21:18.33 | red-der1 | does someone know what with benfishs maps is (bztank), i cant log in to any of them |
| 21:18.42 | red-der1 | can someone verify this please? |
| 21:18.53 | red-der1 | its missle wars, Incomming,... |
| 21:19.39 | me1 | You might be caught under a range ban, you can talk to him for whitelisting |
| 21:19.55 | JefferyM | it would tell you if you were banned |
| 21:20.02 | blast007 | looks down to me |
| 21:20.18 | me1 | JefferyM, it sometimes doesn't |
| 21:20.31 | JefferyM | it should only do so on slow connections, or old servers |
| 21:20.39 | JefferyM | we send the message then a flush, and the boot |
| 21:21.23 | blast007 | red-der1: I'm getting major packet loss (via a ping) to bztank |
| 21:21.50 | blast007 | so try again later |
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| 21:45.00 | Winny | red-der1: Missile wars isn't bztank, it's bzflagr, so I can help you with that one |
| 21:46.11 | Winny | doesn't appear to be any range bans in place or a ban on your IP, hm |
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| 21:50.52 | Winny | http://www.crunchgear.com/2009/01/15/windows-7-will-kill-desktop-linux/ |
| 21:51.00 | Winny | I'm SO tired of "x os will kill y os" articles |
| 21:51.02 | iShock | I don't need to read it, it lies |
| 21:51.05 | Winny | no it won't. get over it. |
| 21:51.12 | iShock | Speaking of win7 and linux |
| 21:51.16 | iShock | gogo vmware, gogo. |
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| 22:00.38 | brlcad | in case anyone missed it yesterday, just so you know -- there is a new firewall script in place that prevents them from accessing the list server (blocked outright, via firewall) |
| 22:01.23 | brlcad | it's not likely to affect anyone, frankly -- as it's only a temporary measure for some of the more worst-case network abusers |
| 22:01.40 | brlcad | and there's only two names on the list, and that's not likely to change anytime soon |
| 22:01.56 | Winny | :o |
| 22:02.07 | brlcad | those on .bz can see the blocks in /etc |
| 22:17.09 | *** part/#bzflag red-der1 (n=red-der@p5DC5BE73.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 22:41.36 | *** join/#bzflag JBdiGriz (n=dbw@adsl-67-121-209-177.dsl.sndg02.pacbell.net) |
| 22:51.59 | *** join/#bzflag remote (n=remote@unaffiliated/remote) |
| 22:52.05 | remote | can we play bzflag 3? |
| 22:52.35 | *** join/#bzflag CBG (n=CBG@cpc1-newe2-0-0-cust289.cdif.cable.ntl.com) |
| 22:59.47 | brlcad | remote: no we cannot |
| 23:01.14 | me1 | remote, I'm pretty sure there isn't even a bzflag 2 yet |
| 23:01.39 | me1 | The latest "official" version is BZFlag 1 v2.0.10 (or .12 for linux) |
| 23:01.53 | brlcad | me1: eh.. see that "2" there? :) |
| 23:02.39 | remote | why not? |
| 23:02.48 | remote | trunk is going to be 3 right? |
| 23:02.54 | me1 | brlcad, yeah, it's the second major revision of bzflag, and since there is only 1 bzflag, i assume it's bzflag "1" |
| 23:02.58 | brlcad | it's not "BZFlag 1 v2.0..." .. it's "BZFlag version 2.0.10" which is the 10th patch on the 2.0 line |
| 23:04.03 | brlcad | remote: yes, it'll eventually be 3, but it's not yet ready |
| 23:04.14 | brlcad | nor will be ready for probably a couple months |
| 23:04.50 | brlcad | possibly sooner, but really not likely |
| 23:06.32 | remote | i heard it will be almost impossible to cheat in bzflag 3 |
| 23:06.34 | remote | is this true? |
| 23:06.50 | *** join/#bzflag spldart (n=short_ci@bzflag/contributor/spldart) |
| 23:06.50 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v spldart] by ChanServ |
| 23:06.53 | brlcad | emphasis on the 'almost', there will always be ways to cheat |
| 23:07.13 | remote | perfect |
| 23:07.45 | brlcad | it should be a lot harder than it is now, which requires very little knowledge or ability |
| 23:08.22 | remote | i just want to draw shot path on radar |
| 23:08.50 | remote | anyways i'm building trunk right now |
| 23:11.04 | blast007 | remote: that's a cheat |
| 23:11.07 | remote | indeed |
| 23:11.22 | remote | it gives me a good edge in no jumping games |
| 23:11.33 | remote | with rico |
| 23:13.00 | me1 | ... |
| 23:15.13 | blast007 | -!- remote_ [n=remote@modemcable176.20-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined ##bzw <- most probably the same person |
| 23:16.04 | SpazzyMcGee | watch out for 176.20.131.66 on a server near you. |
| 23:17.56 | *** join/#bzflag remote (n=remote@unaffiliated/remote) |
| 23:17.57 | SpazzyMcGee | blast, how easy would it be to develop a plugin that does this (particularly the points I made) http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13577&p=133274#p133274 |
| 23:18.45 | SpazzyMcGee | I'm looking into coaxing somebody to doing it for me :) but I might as well give it up if it's loads of work - nobody will take it on |
| 23:20.29 | *** join/#bzflag nn64 (n=nn@74.94.43.196) |
| 23:20.44 | me1 | blast007, query? |
| 23:22.17 | me1 | actually, nvm |
| 23:25.07 | *** join/#bzflag temp_dist (n=temp_dis@bzflag/serverop/TemporalDistraction) |
| 23:25.35 | JefferyM | me1, bzflag2 would probalby not have a space ;) |
| 23:26.08 | JefferyM | but noone calls the first quake, quake 2 |
| 23:27.38 | remote | anyone wants to play trunk with me? |
| 23:28.03 | TD-Linux | remote, I will |
| 23:28.12 | SpazzyMcGee | points at the elephant's enclosure |
| 23:29.40 | remote | okay |
| 23:29.43 | remote | which server? |
| 23:29.47 | TD-Linux | I don't see any |
| 23:29.48 | TD-Linux | also |
| 23:29.56 | TD-Linux | I might have an old version |
| 23:30.03 | remote | i see two |
| 23:31.01 | me1 | TD-Linux, the latest is .15 |
| 23:31.49 | me1 | Unless it changed since yesterday |
| 23:31.51 | remote | i used to see two but only one right now (AHOD on moooo.org) |
| 23:32.14 | remote | and it seems to be lagging alot |
| 23:32.43 | *** part/#bzflag LongDon (n=LongDon@host-091-097-021-022.ewe-ip-backbone.de) |
| 23:32.52 | me1 | remote, lagstats isn't trustable |
| 23:32.59 | remote | well i can't spawn |
| 23:33.01 | JefferyM | welcome to development code |
| 23:33.16 | remote | nor can i disconnect when i press escape the menu doesn't come up |
| 23:33.23 | TD-Linux | make[2]: *** No rule to make target `XfireGameClient.cpp', needed by `XfireGameClient.o'. Stop. |
| 23:33.23 | remote | i guess :-) |
| 23:33.25 | JefferyM | it takes a bit |
| 23:33.27 | TD-Linux | I think I saw that in the backlogs |
| 23:33.30 | TD-Linux | scrolls up |
| 23:33.34 | remote | JefferyM: a bit? |
| 23:33.36 | JefferyM | TD-Linux make clean |
| 23:33.43 | JefferyM | remote, 5+ seconds |
| 23:33.51 | JefferyM | TD-Linux, a file name changed |
| 23:33.53 | remote | ok i'll try again |
| 23:33.53 | TD-Linux | ok |
| 23:34.00 | TD-Linux | I can play in ~10 minutes ;) |
| 23:37.48 | remote | alright i'll try to make this working |
| 23:37.57 | remote | my lag is too high but i suspect it's the graphics |
| 23:38.10 | JefferyM | what video card do you have? |
| 23:41.24 | remote | hold on... |
| 23:41.36 | remote | 00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation 82G33/G31 Express Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 02) (prog-if 00 [VGA controller]) |
| 23:41.42 | JefferyM | yeah... |
| 23:41.51 | JefferyM | is it a laptop? |
| 23:41.53 | remote | no |
| 23:41.58 | remote | it's an hp desktop |
| 23:42.01 | JefferyM | put a real video card in it |
| 23:43.18 | remote | well bzflag 2.0.12 works fine |
| 23:43.34 | JefferyM | it probably works better, but I woudl not say it was "fine" |
| 23:43.41 | JefferyM | what mode did you use in 2.0.x? |
| 23:43.47 | JefferyM | low, med, or high? |
| 23:43.55 | remote | high |
| 23:44.10 | JefferyM | high in 3.0 is the same as experemental in 2.0.x was |
| 23:44.14 | JefferyM | go to medium |
| 23:44.44 | JefferyM | probably also want to set shot lenght to 0 |
| 23:45.06 | remote | experimental works fine in 2.0.12 |
| 23:45.18 | JefferyM | what is your fps in 2.0.x? |
| 23:45.26 | remote | where can i see it? |
| 23:45.31 | JefferyM | hit T in game |
| 23:45.35 | JefferyM | and it'll put it near the hud |
| 23:46.11 | remote | it's constantly changing |
| 23:46.22 | remote | lowest 35 highest 70 |
| 23:46.22 | spldart | roughly |
| 23:46.31 | JefferyM | and then what is it in 3.0? |
| 23:47.49 | remote | max 50 |
| 23:47.54 | remote | lowest 35 |
| 23:48.03 | JefferyM | then your lag is not your "Graphics" |
| 23:48.03 | spldart | huh |
| 23:48.16 | JefferyM | since they are doing similar speeds |
| 23:50.25 | remote | it's smoothing |
| 23:50.35 | remote | when i turn it on it becomes very laggy |
| 23:50.41 | remote | even if i turn it off after |
| 23:50.45 | *** join/#bzflag spldart (n=short_ci@bzflag/contributor/spldart) |
| 23:50.45 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v spldart] by ChanServ |
| 23:50.47 | remote | it stays very delayed |
| 23:50.50 | JefferyM | intel crap craphics do have problems with some options |
| 23:50.57 | JefferyM | probably in the font system |
| 23:54.17 | remote | hopefully i can still play the current bzflag for a while because graphs are very bad for me in 3 |
| 23:54.36 | SpazzyMcGee | My macbook doesn't have that trouble on it's intel integrated, even in 3.0 |
| 23:54.38 | JefferyM | you really should get a real card for that machine if you intend to game on it |
| 23:55.21 | remote | i just use bzflag |
| 23:55.28 | JefferyM | and that is a game ;) |
| 23:55.34 | remote | oh yeah |
| 23:55.35 | spldart | The best. |
| 23:55.36 | remote | it's the game |
| 23:55.37 | JefferyM | the intel drivers/hardware really is crap |
| 23:55.48 | JefferyM | you should make sure you do have current drivers tho |
| 23:56.00 | remote | what should i go for that's the cheapest? |
| 23:56.08 | JefferyM | what OS do you run? |
| 23:56.12 | remote | i use the ubuntu drivers |
| 23:56.15 | remote | linux |
| 23:56.26 | JefferyM | cheap nvidia woudl be good |
| 23:56.30 | spldart | I've always had better results with nvidi.... |
| 23:56.32 | spldart | yeah |
| 23:56.32 | remote | ok |
| 23:56.37 | spldart | in linux |
| 23:56.44 | JefferyM | you'll have to use the nvidia drivers tho |
| 23:56.51 | JefferyM | but there are ubuntu packages for them |
| 23:57.08 | JefferyM | it should detect them and give you the option to activate them |
| 23:57.20 | JefferyM | since they aren't "open" |
| 23:57.25 | remote | yeah |
| 23:58.19 | JefferyM | the fact that you are getting down to 30fps is showing that even bzflag, a very simple game is pushing your hardware to it's limits |
| 23:58.45 | JefferyM | you want to hold 60-80 fps solid for smooth play |
| 23:58.52 | me1 | That doesn't make me feel good about my computer- 30 fps is average for me :p |
| 23:59.09 | JefferyM | 30 is getting close to the limit for human vision |
| 23:59.21 | JefferyM | 15 is the bare min for most people |