| 00:00.12 | a_meteorite | (well, not *anything*, within the topic) |
| 00:00.24 | Happy_Alice | but...what would happen if the google url is not explicitely inside the code? |
| 00:00.36 | JefferyM | dosn't matter |
| 00:00.44 | Happy_Alice | really? |
| 00:00.46 | JefferyM | it would still be a violation of it |
| 00:00.59 | JefferyM | we are USING them with out going to the site |
| 00:01.13 | Happy_Alice | but ... if there is nothing about google inside the code |
| 00:01.23 | JefferyM | the TOS says nothing about a URL |
| 00:01.26 | JefferyM | it says "USING" |
| 00:01.34 | Happy_Alice | my browser is using it |
| 00:01.49 | Happy_Alice | does it violate the tos? |
| 00:02.41 | Happy_Alice | my idea is to let the user to specify the url to use for the translation inside a config file |
| 00:02.56 | JefferyM | do you see the google site |
| 00:02.59 | Happy_Alice | just like u specify the url in your browser |
| 00:03.09 | Happy_Alice | yes i saw it |
| 00:03.17 | JefferyM | then you are not voilating the TOS |
| 00:03.18 | a_meteorite | it's implied that they only allow authorized uses for it, and automated uses for it are forbidden |
| 00:03.25 | JefferyM | our use, does not show the google site to the end user |
| 00:03.32 | JefferyM | it provides another INTERFACE to the serivce |
| 00:03.34 | JefferyM | that is the violation |
| 00:03.39 | a_meteorite | what he said |
| 00:03.49 | JefferyM | basicly to use it you HAVE to use your browser |
| 00:03.56 | JefferyM | that is the only way that is in the TOS |
| 00:04.13 | Happy_Alice | but but... my browser (firefox) is also an interface to it ? |
| 00:04.20 | JefferyM | so no, just wraping it up in another site would not change the TOS violation |
| 00:04.25 | a_meteorite | I think the TOS mentioned something about licensing options? although I imagine that could be expensive |
| 00:04.31 | JefferyM | Happy_Alice, no firefox is rendering the google HTML |
| 00:04.36 | JefferyM | we are not renering there site |
| 00:04.41 | JefferyM | we are hiding the site |
| 00:04.51 | JefferyM | that is the problem |
| 00:05.10 | JefferyM | by your definition, your OS is an "interface" to it |
| 00:05.21 | JefferyM | basicly we ca NOT use google translations in any way |
| 00:05.43 | JefferyM | 1) the TOS specificly disallows it |
| 00:05.52 | Happy_Alice | but..in this way, the responsability is given to users...not to bzflag project |
| 00:06.00 | JefferyM | 2) it is not wiithin the spirt in how they hosted the site |
| 00:06.03 | JefferyM | Happy_Alice, nope |
| 00:06.03 | a_meteorite | no offense Happy_Alice, but I think your English skills may be hampering your understanding of the TOS |
| 00:06.13 | JefferyM | Happy_Alice, dosn't work that way |
| 00:06.21 | Happy_Alice | a_meteorite: i am sure u are right |
| 00:06.21 | JefferyM | and we arn't going to go down that road |
| 00:06.32 | Happy_Alice | hummm |
| 00:06.37 | JefferyM | we support open source software and software licensing |
| 00:06.44 | JefferyM | as that is the only thing that protects our software |
| 00:07.00 | JefferyM | I'm not going to have our software try to skirt some other license |
| 00:07.03 | JefferyM | that's not cool |
| 00:07.07 | Happy_Alice | and, if i obtain an agreement from google? |
| 00:07.12 | JefferyM | and I am NOT going to piss off google |
| 00:07.28 | JefferyM | sure, if you can get an open source license from google, sure |
| 00:07.31 | a_meteorite | hehe, bad idea |
| 00:07.33 | Happy_Alice | who is asking you to "piss off" google? |
| 00:08.03 | a_meteorite | if the devs integrated your code and violated their TOS, it would piss off google |
| 00:08.30 | Happy_Alice | because...there a lot of opensource program that are using google translator. see for instance Horizon translator for Mac |
| 00:08.58 | a_meteorite | they likely allow people to obtain licenses for it, which excludes that TOS restriction |
| 00:09.01 | Happy_Alice | a_meteorite: i dont ask anyone to violate google |
| 00:11.07 | JefferyM | Happy_Alice, violating the TOS in our app would piss off google |
| 00:11.21 | JefferyM | or even providing a means to violate the TOS |
| 00:11.28 | JefferyM | such as your idea of putting that onus on the user |
| 00:11.36 | JefferyM | google gives us money |
| 00:11.45 | JefferyM | I will not come close to risking anything with them |
| 00:11.48 | Happy_Alice | i am just asking, JeffM |
| 00:11.56 | JefferyM | I know |
| 00:12.02 | JefferyM | and I'm letting you know our stance |
| 00:12.08 | a_meteorite | they are quite supportive of open source, I'm sure if someone asked them for an open source license, they might consider it |
| 00:12.17 | JefferyM | I don't really like the idea of using a site to do the translations |
| 00:12.24 | JefferyM | I'd rather use one of the open source apps |
| 00:12.24 | a_meteorite | that *is* kinda hackish |
| 00:13.07 | JefferyM | it's a slipery slope you have there, and rather then try to work out some sort of "deal". I'd rather see the correct way of doing things where we do the translations in the client |
| 00:13.13 | Happy_Alice | JefferM: so even with an agreement, you prefer an other implementation kind? |
| 00:13.30 | JefferyM | I have always said I'd prefer the client to do it |
| 00:13.34 | JefferyM | even before you started |
| 00:13.49 | JefferyM | that is my personal preference |
| 00:13.53 | a_meteorite | makes more sense for a client to do a translation |
| 00:13.57 | a_meteorite | semantically |
| 00:14.08 | Happy_Alice | so it is not necessary to ask an agreement? |
| 00:14.18 | Happy_Alice | because i am pretty sure i would obtain it |
| 00:14.19 | JefferyM | it would be a license |
| 00:14.22 | JefferyM | not an "agreement" |
| 00:14.36 | JefferyM | we would have to have an LGPL compatable license |
| 00:14.52 | JefferyM | that means that not just an agreement that our game can use it, but any game that used our code |
| 00:14.55 | JefferyM | for now and forever |
| 00:14.55 | a_meteorite | who knows, they might even have a bona fide API to use |
| 00:14.57 | JefferyM | from anyone |
| 00:15.03 | JefferyM | a_meteorite, they don't IIRC |
| 00:15.07 | a_meteorite | that's probably a tall order then |
| 00:15.20 | a_meteorite | because than anyone can get the code and then use it for free |
| 00:15.59 | a_meteorite | heh, I think the only way Google would go for that is ads in your target language... lol |
| 00:16.16 | JefferyM | the mac widdget you are talking about is a closed source thing from apple |
| 00:16.30 | JefferyM | they probably got it as part of a disrobution deal |
| 00:16.36 | JefferyM | that is acceptable for them, but not for us |
| 00:16.49 | a_meteorite | Google and Apple work together, for example the iPhone with Google Maps |
| 00:16.54 | JefferyM | but sure if oyu want to ask google about it |
| 00:17.02 | JefferyM | never hurts to ask |
| 00:17.08 | a_meteorite | won't know 'till you do |
| 00:17.25 | JefferyM | I'm just letting you know that we will have different requirements then just some freeware |
| 00:19.00 | Happy_Alice | i see |
| 00:19.36 | JefferyM | due to our license, someone could take bzflag, make another interface to it, and make a new game on top of it, and SELL it |
| 00:19.46 | JefferyM | under a totaly different name' |
| 00:19.52 | a_meteorite | heck, someone could sell it without even changing the code |
| 00:19.56 | JefferyM | true |
| 00:20.01 | JefferyM | but that's just a scamm |
| 00:20.05 | a_meteorite | indeed |
| 00:20.16 | JefferyM | it is totaly viable to use bzflag as the basis for another game |
| 00:20.18 | JefferyM | a comercial one |
| 00:20.44 | JefferyM | all they'd have to do would be abstract bzflag into libBZFlag and then just provide sources to the changes to bzflag |
| 00:20.50 | JefferyM | but after that they could do whatever they wanted to |
| 00:20.59 | a_meteorite | right cause LGPL allows linking into proprietary stuf |
| 00:21.15 | JefferyM | if we add code that dosn't allow that, we can't be included in debian anymore |
| 00:21.38 | a_meteorite | isn't debian one of the more purist distros when it comes to licensing? |
| 00:21.48 | JefferyM | depends who you talk to |
| 00:21.49 | a_meteorite | I remember firefox/ice weasel |
| 00:21.50 | JefferyM | but yeah |
| 00:22.04 | JefferyM | we had to change our MD5 code cus of them |
| 00:22.33 | a_meteorite | heh |
| 00:23.39 | JefferyM | I don't mean to rain on your parade Happy_Alice but I don't think you could get that kind of license out of google |
| 00:23.49 | JefferyM | as that would basicly mean them changing the TOS for everyone |
| 00:24.03 | JefferyM | since our license can be applied to anyone |
| 00:24.11 | Happy_Alice | it is not necessary to obtain it, anyway |
| 00:24.17 | Happy_Alice | i understand |
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| 00:31.57 | blast007 | hmm, what does ibot use to translate? |
| 00:32.19 | JefferyM | don't know |
| 00:32.21 | JefferyM | maybe babblefish |
| 00:32.29 | JefferyM | it may be a violator as well |
| 00:32.32 | blast007 | ;) |
| 00:32.48 | JefferyM | or maybe the TOS has something that allows it |
| 00:32.54 | JefferyM | I don't know |
| 00:32.57 | JefferyM | I just saw what I saw |
| 00:33.01 | JefferyM | and we are not lawers |
| 00:33.08 | blast007 | I used to use a 3rd party SOAP service that made use of babelfish, but that stopped working (possibly for that reason..) |
| 00:33.37 | Happy_Alice | or just because babelfish has changed their urls? |
| 00:33.49 | JefferyM | I mean they get no add revenue from those users |
| 00:33.53 | JefferyM | so I can see disallowing them |
| 00:33.56 | JefferyM | bandwith ain't free |
| 00:34.29 | a_meteorite | and neither is the R&D + translators to do the translations.. |
| 00:34.52 | a_meteorite | I wonder how much is invested, hopefully not too much considering the quality of translation... heh |
| 00:35.43 | Happy_Alice | a_meteorite: i didnt want to abuse the work of others. I just wanted to bring something to bzflag |
| 00:36.13 | JefferyM | I think I see the big TOS thing that we'd break |
| 00:36.17 | a_meteorite | 'course not, not saying that you wanted to, but they can't do it because it risks all of bzflag, their own license is the only thing protecting them |
| 00:36.23 | JefferyM | You specifically agree not to access (or attempt to access) any of the Services through any automated means (including use of scripts or web crawlers) and shall ensure that you comply with the instructions set out in any robots.txt file present on the Services. |
| 00:36.33 | JefferyM | we are doing automated translations |
| 00:36.38 | a_meteorite | yup |
| 00:36.49 | Happy_Alice | JefferyM. That's ok. I have understood |
| 00:36.50 | JefferyM | all the other tools you talk about are of the "user enters text to be translated" type |
| 00:37.03 | JefferyM | Happy_Alice, I'm just clarifying for myself mostly :) |
| 00:37.12 | Happy_Alice | it is clarified |
| 00:37.41 | JefferyM | how can you tell what is clarified for me? |
| 00:37.43 | JefferyM | can you read my mind? |
| 00:37.56 | Happy_Alice | sorry...i missunderstood. |
| 00:37.57 | JefferyM | if so, why would you want to? it's scarry in there |
| 00:38.00 | JefferyM | :) |
| 00:38.38 | Happy_Alice | dont be rude....English is not my native language and i have studied english since 3 years ago |
| 00:38.50 | JefferyM | I was not being rude, I was making a joke |
| 00:39.17 | Happy_Alice | sorry for this too...i didnt understand it |
| 00:39.36 | Happy_Alice | maybe because i am disappointed |
| 00:39.47 | JefferyM | you arn't the only one involved in this, so I was clarifying it for all who were listening so it wasn't asked later. |
| 00:39.58 | JefferyM | as well as to see it for myself to make sure I am not wrong. |
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| 00:40.37 | JefferyM | such is software development, not all code works out for the problem it's trying to solve |
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| 15:39.02 | CIA-43 | BZFlag: 03t-s * r19079 10/trunk/bzflag/ (3 files in 3 dirs): Do the platform depending logic inside VerticalSync.cxx and VerticalSync.h and only ask if vync is available inside DisplayMenu.cxx |
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| 15:45.44 | MindstormsKid | nn's server is crazy O_o |
| 15:49.02 | CIA-43 | BZFlag: 03t-s * r19080 10/trunk/bzflag/src/platform/VerticalSync.cxx: It is saver to have a fallback if HAVE_CGLGETCURRENTCONTEXT is not defined |
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| 16:02.21 | CIA-43 | BZFlag: 03trepan * r19081 10/trunk/bzflag/src/platform/VerticalSync.cxx: * clean splits by OS |
| 16:05.29 | CIA-43 | BZFlag: 03trepan * r19082 10/trunk/bzflag/src/platform/VerticalSync.cxx: * added parenthesis |
| 16:07.36 | CIA-43 | BZFlag: 03trepan * r19083 10/trunk/bzflag/src/platform/VerticalSync.cxx: * removed a useless check |
| 16:31.11 | brlcad | ts: you shouldn't test for platforms, you test for features |
| 16:32.06 | brlcad | (i.e., shouldn't use __APPLE__) |
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| 16:49.37 | ts | brlcad: I thought HAVE_CGLGETCURRENTCONTEXT is only available for apple |
| 16:50.28 | ts | brlcad: and if cgl isn't continued at the apple platform it would use the generic glx way which would not work |
| 16:57.00 | brlcad | ts: glx could be made to work, but there's nothing to say what would be 'right' on an apple "platform" that doesn't have core graphics either |
| 16:57.42 | brlcad | not having cgl makes it no different than any other platform that doesn't have a feature we recognize |
| 16:58.11 | ts | IIRC Apple said that GLX is only supported using X11 |
| 16:59.08 | brlcad | hence the X in GLX |
| 16:59.26 | ts | Obviously :) |
| 16:59.36 | brlcad | that doesn't negate what I said |
| 17:02.10 | ts | The problem is apple has like 3 APIs to access OpenGL and I suspect to drop some in the future and I would expect the glx way to fail. |
| 17:02.42 | ts | However, we could take it out and only look for the feature. |
| 17:04.57 | ts | Devinfo doesn't say something about it |
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| 17:11.46 | brlcad | ts: it's a pretty common best practice, you avoid platform tests simply because they are generally/eventually wrong because platforms change -- features don't |
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| 21:50.11 | me1 | hay, can anyone admin on hepcat come to the overlord server? there's a cheater. (don't know hepcat's channel, or if it exists) |
| 21:52.42 | me1 | "Tyrant Tank" if he leaves before anyone sees |
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| 23:46.51 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v spldart] by ChanServ |