| 00:07.06 | *** join/#bzflag L4m3r (n=l4m3r@about/essy/warning/L4m3r) |
| 00:07.06 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v L4m3r] by ChanServ |
| 00:21.13 | *** join/#bzflag brad` (n=brad@static.moooo.org) |
| 00:28.51 | *** join/#bzflag TD-Linux (n=wheeeeee@about/essy/indecisive/TD-Linux) |
| 00:35.27 | *** join/#bzflag Pimpi_ (n=frank@gondolin.pimpi.org) |
| 00:47.39 | *** join/#bzflag short_circuit (n=short_ci@c-98-197-19-50.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) |
| 00:48.34 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v spldart] by ChanServ |
| 00:56.19 | AAA_awright | Has anyone ever considered a bzflag:// protocol? |
| 00:58.19 | AAA_awright | bzflag://server:port[/team] very simple |
| 00:58.39 | AAA_awright | I can imagine stuff like bzflag://server?solo=25 getting abused |
| 00:58.46 | TD-Linux | you mean as a plugin for a browser? |
| 00:59.02 | AAA_awright | A windoes shell extension |
| 00:59.54 | AAA_awright | codes a simple patch |
| 01:18.07 | *** join/#bzflag whodaman (n=whodaman@pdpc/supporter/student/whodaman-) |
| 01:37.47 | Falseprophet | Odd question, can anyone read Swedish? |
| 01:47.14 | *** join/#bzflag Think_Differentl (n=shedelj@unaffiliated/thinkdifferentl/x-838543) |
| 02:00.56 | *** join/#bzflag brad (n=brad@static.moooo.org) |
| 02:01.05 | AAA_awright | Would it be a good idea to have a packet that sets the slash commands the server will accept? Similar to MsgSetVar? |
| 02:02.04 | blast007 | AAA_awright: probably |
| 02:02.21 | blast007 | since then plugins that register commands could also have their commands listed |
| 02:02.43 | blast007 | and even better would be if the server only sent the commands that the user is allowed to execute |
| 02:02.54 | AAA_awright | Exactly |
| 02:02.59 | blast007 | (hmm, which wouldn't work for plugin commands) |
| 02:03.53 | AAA_awright | A plugin could signify if it is intended for a user or not by providing a help message, maybe? |
| 02:04.00 | blast007 | true |
| 02:04.17 | blast007 | a bit overkill though |
| 02:04.33 | AAA_awright | Not any more overkill then a new boolean option |
| 02:04.34 | blast007 | it'd probably be enough to just not worry about plugin commands |
| 02:05.07 | AAA_awright | The server knows registered plugin commands, it is in the same registry as server commands, I thought? |
| 02:05.15 | AAA_awright | the same container |
| 02:06.18 | blast007 | shrugs |
| 02:08.50 | *** join/#bzflag KingofCamelot (i=KingofCa@SCT-52-221.resnet.ucsb.edu) |
| 02:11.52 | Mets | does bzflag run on sun sparc machines? I'm assuming it should |
| 02:12.26 | blast007 | what OS? |
| 02:12.30 | blast007 | solaris? |
| 02:12.32 | Mets | solaris |
| 02:12.38 | blast007 | it might |
| 02:12.50 | Mets | during compile i got this: ld: fatal: file bzfsPlugins.o: wrong ELF machine type: EM_386 |
| 02:13.29 | blast007 | are you building with plugin support? |
| 02:13.41 | blast007 | if so, try without |
| 02:13.59 | Mets | i was |
| 02:14.34 | blast007 | we might not be set up for shared libraries on non x86/x64 systems |
| 02:15.40 | Mets | hmm |
| 02:16.02 | Mets | I know it works on netbsd, which I'm not sure if that is officially supported |
| 02:16.13 | Mets | I thought it would run on an ultrasparc |
| 02:16.45 | Mets | ultrasparc with solaris, that is |
| 02:16.56 | blast007 | I've never tried |
| 02:17.10 | blast007 | the only ultrasparc that I have access to needs a new battery/nvram chip |
| 02:17.10 | Mets | well I'll tell you in a few minutes :p |
| 02:17.21 | blast007 | (and had a bad HD) |
| 02:17.40 | Mets | this would be cool if it would run |
| 02:17.53 | Mets | i guess i could live without plugins |
| 02:18.19 | blast007 | there might even be a way to get that part to build, but I figure we should try without first :) |
| 02:19.35 | Mets | k running make |
| 02:24.05 | Mets | b |
| 02:24.06 | Mets | ld: fatal: file AccessControlList.o: wrong ELF machine type: EM_386 |
| 02:24.06 | Mets | ld: fatal: File processing errors. No output written to bzfs |
| 02:24.15 | Mets | got past the plugin part at least |
| 02:25.40 | blast007 | hehe |
| 02:27.11 | Mets | the readme is from 1999 lol |
| 02:27.13 | Mets | for solaris |
| 02:29.02 | CIA-33 | BZFlag: 03bthansen * r17347 10/trunk/bzflag/configure.ac: Typo: Remove extra 'dnl' in description of the layout |
| 02:29.51 | Mets | maybe try an older version than branch? |
| 02:29.58 | CIA-33 | BZFlag: 03bthansen * r17348 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/ (39 files in 39 dirs): |
| 02:29.58 | CIA-33 | BZFlag: Add --enable-debug and --enable-profiling for plugin builds |
| 02:29.58 | CIA-33 | BZFlag: Propagate the settings from the top level configure for debug and profiling settings |
| 02:29.58 | CIA-33 | BZFlag: down to the plugin configuration. |
| 02:30.08 | CIA-33 | BZFlag: 03bthansen * r17349 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/nagware/nagware.cpp: Quell compiler warnings about type conversions |
| 02:36.23 | Mets | blast007: in the readme it says If you have a modern gcc and old Sun X headers, you may need to |
| 02:36.23 | Mets | add -fpermissive to CFLAGS and CXXFLAGS in src/platform/Makefile. |
| 02:36.31 | Mets | do you think that would help? |
| 02:36.41 | blast007 | maybe |
| 02:36.52 | blast007 | I'm more of a Windows person ;) |
| 02:37.29 | Mets | k |
| 02:37.39 | Mets | I'm not really a sun person either, just thought I'd give it a go |
| 02:51.34 | *** join/#bzflag me1 (n=you@unaffiliated/me1) |
| 03:14.46 | CIA-33 | BZFlag: 03kingofcamelot * r17350 10/branches/gsoc_server_listing/src/bzflag/ (HUDuiScrollList.cxx HUDuiScrollList.h): Added support for page-based scroll lists to HUDuiScrollList. |
| 03:15.29 | KingofCamelot | Well, there's my commit for the day. :P |
| 03:19.27 | Epyon_ | One commit per day? |
| 03:19.33 | Epyon_ | 'tis is madness! |
| 03:21.58 | KingofCamelot | At the moment ya..it'll pick up in a 2 weeks |
| 03:23.25 | brlcad | at least it's visible, measurable progress -- only a good thing ;) |
| 03:29.15 | *** join/#bzflag Ride- (i=45d2764f@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c67bc0330a315bb6) |
| 03:30.07 | Ride- | can anyone tell me what "hax" is? |
| 03:32.08 | javawizard2539 | ~wikipedia hax |
| 03:32.30 | Ride- | ? |
| 03:32.35 | Mets | there was a person called hax... |
| 03:32.55 | Ride- | well The Traiter is using something called hax and he told me to come here to find out what it was |
| 03:33.07 | Mets | he whose name shall not be named |
| 03:33.11 | Mets | The Traiter? |
| 03:33.16 | Ride- | yup |
| 03:33.20 | Mets | as in a person? |
| 03:33.24 | Ride- | no |
| 03:33.30 | Ride- | as in a BZFlag callsign |
| 03:33.36 | Mets | right, that'd qualify as a person |
| 03:33.39 | Mets | what server? |
| 03:33.40 | Ride- | ok |
| 03:33.43 | Ride- | um |
| 03:33.47 | Ride- | let me quick check |
| 03:34.14 | Mets | is there an ibot command for that? |
| 03:34.45 | AAA_awright | Not as such |
| 03:35.16 | Ride- | ahs3.no-ip.biz 5030 |
| 03:35.19 | Mets | he's on gu or ahs |
| 03:36.18 | Ride- | ahs |
| 03:36.26 | Mets | doubt he's here |
| 03:36.30 | Ride- | ahs3.no-ip.biz 5030 |
| 03:36.31 | Mets | it's kinda late |
| 03:36.36 | Ride- | just go on |
| 03:36.39 | Ride- | im on right now |
| 03:36.41 | javawizard2539 | Am I appearing as away? |
| 03:36.51 | Winny | javawizard2539, yep |
| 03:36.54 | Mets | i'm not an admin on that server so not much I can do |
| 03:36.58 | javawizard2539 | hmm |
| 03:37.01 | javawizard2539 | hold ona sec everyone |
| 03:37.17 | *** join/#bzflag javawizard2539 (n=javawiza@c-76-23-28-244.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 03:37.27 | Mets | i'd love to know his ip, i wonder if it's you know who |
| 03:37.34 | javawizard2539 | Am I still marked as away? |
| 03:37.35 | Mets | I could sign on, he'll certainly yell at me :p |
| 03:37.42 | javawizard2539 | you know who? |
| 03:37.57 | Mets | not away to me |
| 03:38.00 | javawizard2539 | ok |
| 03:38.14 | javawizard2539 | ChatZilla keeps getting into this mode where I'm always marked as away |
| 03:38.21 | javawizard2539 | and reconnecting sometimes fixes it |
| 03:38.32 | Winny | check the options... |
| 03:38.40 | javawizard2539 | I have |
| 03:38.52 | javawizard2539 | even if I click the back menu item I'm still away |
| 03:39.00 | Mets | Ride-: I told ahs |
| 03:39.21 | javawizard2539 | What's with you know who? |
| 03:39.38 | Ride- | huh? |
| 03:39.43 | Mets | fury |
| 03:39.50 | Mets | hax=fury |
| 03:39.55 | Mets | he said hax |
| 03:39.56 | Ride- | its the Traitor |
| 03:40.01 | Winny | no |
| 03:40.13 | Winny | hax are a thing |
| 03:40.14 | Ride- | i mean like hax as in something you do |
| 03:40.17 | Mets | Ride-: I was being sarcastic, just ignore it |
| 03:40.18 | Ride- | not a person |
| 03:40.31 | Winny | Ride-, then ban him |
| 03:40.35 | Ride- | like an apologizing hax |
| 03:40.39 | Ride- | why |
| 03:40.51 | Ride- | all it does is apologize automatically if he tk's |
| 03:41.05 | Ride- | is that bad? |
| 03:41.09 | CIA-33 | BZFlag: 03bthansen * r17351 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/HoldTheFlag/HoldTheFlag.cpp: |
| 03:41.09 | CIA-33 | BZFlag: Quell warning compiler warning |
| 03:41.09 | CIA-33 | BZFlag: const char * passed as char * |
| 03:41.18 | CIA-33 | BZFlag: 03bthansen * r17352 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/bzfscron/CronJob.cpp: Quell compiler warning - comparing signed and unsigned ints |
| 03:41.26 | CIA-33 | BZFlag: 03bthansen * r17353 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/teamflagreset/teamflagreset.cpp: Quell compiler warnings - unused variables |
| 03:41.37 | CIA-33 | BZFlag: 03bthansen * r17354 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/ (5 files in 4 dirs): Quell compiler warning - unused parameters, whitespace |
| 03:41.44 | CIA-33 | BZFlag: 03bthansen * r17355 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/bzfscron/TextUtils.cxx: Quell warning about empty else clause |
| 03:41.55 | CIA-33 | BZFlag: 03bthansen * r17356 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/keepaway/keepaway.cpp: Shadowed variable |
| 03:42.07 | CIA-33 | BZFlag: 03bthansen * r17357 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/ (3 files in 3 dirs): Fix mismatch between format string and number of format parameters |
| 03:42.16 | CIA-33 | BZFlag: 03bthansen * r17358 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/ (plugin_utils/plugin_HTTP.cpp recordmatch/recordmatch.cpp): Add default case to switch statements |
| 03:42.20 | Mets | that'd be pointless |
| 03:42.24 | CIA-33 | BZFlag: 03bthansen * r17359 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/plugin_utils/ (3 files): More unused parameters |
| 03:42.25 | Mets | and I doubt that's all he did |
| 03:42.33 | CIA-33 | BZFlag: 03bthansen * r17360 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/plugin_utils/plugin_HTTP.cpp: Fix shadow, unused variable |
| 03:42.38 | Mets | typically people who modify source code don't do it to make the game more polite :) |
| 03:42.46 | Winny | correct |
| 03:44.15 | Ride- | ahhh |
| 03:44.22 | Ride- | thanks for telling me |
| 03:44.27 | Mets | np |
| 03:46.55 | Epyon_ | brlcad, don't pick on me, I perfectly am conscious that at the moment I'm no more useful than a yahoo advertisement :P |
| 03:52.19 | Mets | what's with all the plugin commits tonight? |
| 03:54.31 | Thumper_ | Mets: cleanup mainly |
| 03:54.54 | Mets | yeah it looks like it now that I actualy scroll through and read the notes :p |
| 03:55.15 | Epyon_ | Commit early, commit ofter. |
| 03:55.19 | Epyon_ | often* |
| 03:55.51 | Thumper_ | I think the plugins all compile cleanly now with --enable-debug |
| 03:55.56 | Thumper_ | so I'm done for today |
| 03:56.17 | Thumper_ | I can start work on tomorrow's stuff in 4 minutes... :-P |
| 03:56.17 | Mets | super |
| 03:56.27 | Mets | lol |
| 03:57.06 | Epyon_ | One more beer |
| 03:57.07 | Mets | waits for flash to tell him what to do |
| 03:58.12 | Mets | I wonder if it'd be worth contacting the guy at Sun who wrote the solaris readme...in 1999 |
| 03:58.24 | Mets | he at least left his email |
| 04:06.37 | Flash | was playing bz |
| 04:07.10 | Winny | playing is for noobs |
| 04:11.19 | Flash | what to do about Traitor? nothing? |
| 04:11.24 | Winny | ~seen jude- |
| 04:11.32 | ibot | jude- <n=jude-@c-68-84-206-92.hsd1.az.comcast.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #bzflag, 15d 33m 21s ago, saying: 'glad to hear it :)'. |
| 04:11.35 | Winny | :( |
| 04:13.02 | Flash | Mets: or about solaris compile? |
| 04:17.52 | AAA_awright | Can someone review and commit my patch regarding the /ghost stuff? |
| 04:17.54 | Mets | lol, negative on that Flash |
| 04:18.08 | Mets | on lag bug debugging |
| 04:18.10 | CIA-33 | BZFlag: 03bthansen * r17361 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/ (4 files in 3 dirs): Whitespace |
| 04:18.14 | AAA_awright | ... |
| 04:18.19 | CIA-33 | BZFlag: 03bthansen * r17362 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/ (plugin_utils/plugin_HTTP.cpp recordmatch/recordmatch.cpp): Fix default case for switch |
| 04:18.22 | Flash | I was waiting for brlcad to show up and comment |
| 04:18.33 | AAA_awright | Trying to set "most commits today" on cia.vc? |
| 04:18.42 | Mets | sorry I was on fox burrow |
| 04:18.52 | Flash | so was I... how did I miss you? |
| 04:18.58 | Flash | or did you join as I left? |
| 04:19.16 | Mets | I guess i just missed you |
| 04:19.31 | Mets | i've been there for maybe 15 minutes? |
| 04:19.36 | Mets | right after i posted |
| 04:19.53 | Flash | I've been gone since :06 (when I commented) |
| 04:20.09 | Mets | must have not noticed |
| 04:20.19 | Flash | brlcad: do you have a problem with AAA_awright's patch? |
| 04:20.29 | AAA_awright | Is brlcad even here? |
| 04:20.43 | Mets | rabbit hunts are fun with a lot of people, must have been too busy shooting |
| 04:20.44 | Flash | he's always here |
| 04:20.50 | AAA_awright | currently /away |
| 04:20.51 | Flash | just not always "HERE" |
| 04:21.07 | Mets | i think he's away, he's greyed out in my client |
| 04:21.10 | AAA_awright | So am I, but I am always "away" |
| 04:21.29 | Mets | hmm true |
| 04:21.32 | Mets | why do you do that? lol |
| 04:21.48 | AAA_awright | That way no one bugs me, I just sneak into a conversation, say a one liner, and sneak out |
| 04:22.01 | Flash | RARELY do you say a one-liner |
| 04:22.02 | *** join/#bzflag AHA (n=aha@unaffiliated/aha) |
| 04:22.10 | AAA_awright | mhmhm, true |
| 04:22.12 | Mets | lol |
| 04:22.17 | Mets | one paragrapher maybe |
| 04:22.28 | AAA_awright | Try soap box |
| 04:22.35 | AAA_awright | :p |
| 04:22.57 | AAA_awright | ssoapbox |
| 04:24.24 | *** join/#bzflag Falseprophet (n=Chee@unaffiliated/emonemo) |
| 04:27.23 | brlcad | AAA_awright: i'm always here :P |
| 04:27.39 | Flash | rests his case |
| 04:28.05 | AAA_awright | concedes |
| 04:28.38 | brlcad | Epyon_: hm? no idea what you mean regarding picking on you .. wasn't even talking to/about you :) |
| 04:29.57 | brlcad | Flash: the only problem I have with it has nothing to do with the patch itself.. :) |
| 04:30.07 | Flash | I know, that's why I asked |
| 04:31.16 | brlcad | pieces of it are already ripped out, it's just a matter of a conscious decision as opposed to just willy nilly piecewise removal of bits, then using those removed bits as excuse for removing the other remaining bits |
| 04:31.51 | brlcad | that conscious decision heavily relies on what happens to in-game auth |
| 04:32.02 | AAA_awright | I have been working on a plugin that does it |
| 04:32.14 | Flash | I do know your concern, but I think it is more gone than present at this time |
| 04:32.22 | Flash | so it makes sense to me to take it all the way out |
| 04:32.53 | AAA_awright | I meant to distribute it with the patch, but I thought it would be better to get it removed first so svn diff can stop bugging me |
| 04:34.02 | brlcad | I could justas easily find the commits the started removal and restore .. removing because of momentum shouldn't be the deciding factor |
| 04:34.35 | Flash | that's true, but I think we should do one or the other |
| 04:34.43 | AAA_awright | I don't know of anyone that wanted to keep it (except me, even then I don't care) |
| 04:34.47 | Flash | either put it all back or take it all out |
| 04:36.03 | brlcad | Flash: alright, go ahead and nix it |
| 04:36.40 | AAA_awright | brlcad: You researched a shell handler for a bzflag:// url? |
| 04:36.50 | Flash | while I have you in an acquiescing mood, have you had a chance to look at FontManager? |
| 04:42.38 | CIA-33 | BZFlag: 03jwmelto * r17363 10/trunk/bzflag/ (6 files in 2 dirs): Apply patch 1980929 from AAA-awright/diamondmagic |
| 04:43.05 | javawizard2539 | menotume: ping |
| 04:52.15 | brlcad | AAA_awright: no entiendo lo que me preguntes |
| 04:52.23 | brlcad | Flash: yes, I checked it while on the plane |
| 04:52.33 | CIA-33 | BZFlag: 03bthansen * r17364 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/ (3 files in 3 dirs): Whitespace |
| 04:52.36 | brlcad | still crashes in the ~FTFace destructor |
| 04:52.44 | brlcad | on exit |
| 04:53.12 | Flash | I wish it would do it for me |
| 04:53.29 | CIA-33 | BZFlag: 03jwmelto * r17365 10/trunk/bzflag/src/ (3 files in 2 dirs): Finish the job and remove /ghost from the client |
| 04:53.45 | AAA_awright | brlcad: I think registering a url handler for BZFlag, at least for Windows, would allow for some creative web features |
| 04:55.20 | brlcad | Flash: maybe of interest/use, sample session: http://bzflag.bz/~sean/tmp/font.log |
| 04:56.06 | brlcad | AAA_awright: ah, you mean OS integration features |
| 04:56.08 | Flash | yes, that's interesting |
| 04:56.12 | AAA_awright | As I understand, brlcad, you did some at least minor research into Windoe^Hws shell handlers |
| 04:56.20 | brlcad | nope, wasn't me |
| 04:56.31 | brlcad | I mean, I know some of the basics |
| 04:56.48 | brlcad | but I don't recall ever looking up anything for BZFlag for Windows |
| 04:57.03 | AAA_awright | Maybe that is it, idk |
| 04:57.47 | AAA_awright | I have a simple script that converts a URL into the correct parameters and launches BZFlag, would it be of interest to allow bzflag:// URL's passed, as well as the current user:password@server:port system? |
| 04:58.23 | brlcad | for windows? |
| 04:58.46 | brlcad | you mean a batch file or something else, some actual script |
| 04:59.00 | Flash | ummm... why is there a call to abort() in FontManager::clear(int font, int size) ??? |
| 04:59.10 | AAA_awright | brlcad: erm, PHP script |
| 05:01.42 | AAA_awright | a url mode would have some restrictions like no passing passwords and solo=100 paramaters, or view=interlaced |
| 05:01.48 | brlcad | Flash: iirc, it was just a temp cheap way to avoid the crash under a different source configuration |
| 05:02.12 | Flash | is it in the version you tested (from the log)? |
| 05:02.35 | brlcad | it doesn't get to that atm, as it's only used during rebuilds |
| 05:04.59 | brlcad | AAA_awright: I frankly don't see the point of the feature |
| 05:05.52 | AAA_awright | a bzflag:// link in the stats website, a link on a server website, it could be used in the bzfs HTTP daemon, whatever. |
| 05:05.57 | brlcad | launching bzflag from a web page can be done in a variety of ways regardless of going through the steps to get a new url protocol registered with the OS |
| 05:06.16 | AAA_awright | Oh? |
| 05:06.28 | brlcad | and none of them are "safe" |
| 05:06.38 | AAA_awright | Figured. |
| 05:06.57 | brlcad | no solution is that doesn't require the user downloading/approving something from you beforehand |
| 05:07.38 | AAA_awright | This would make that safe and easy for systems that implement |
| 05:07.40 | AAA_awright | it |
| 05:07.56 | brlcad | it's still a solution that requires the user download something |
| 05:08.10 | brlcad | if you require them do that, there is a fair bit you can do |
| 05:09.33 | AAA_awright | What would they download? bzflag would handle a new format of argument now, and the installer/package manager would install the handler |
| 05:09.35 | brlcad | AAA_awright: frankly something like java web start would be the easiest since at least Windows and Mac support it out of the box |
| 05:09.58 | brlcad | a java app-runner that kicks off your script, bzflag directly, etc |
| 05:10.24 | AAA_awright | There was one of those, I think, it was never used very widely, if at all |
| 05:11.16 | brlcad | and then this is any different because why? |
| 05:11.34 | brlcad | just picking a different language doesn't change things if nobody really needs that feature |
| 05:11.56 | brlcad | at least with any level of sufficient demand |
| 05:12.11 | AAA_awright | Uh, the language would be c++, it would be an extra if statment in bzflag.cxx |
| 05:12.19 | Flash | brlcad: where is the body of FTFont::~FTFont() defined? |
| 05:12.53 | brlcad | AAA_awright: huh, what is "it" then |
| 05:13.14 | brlcad | Flash: in ftgl |
| 05:13.26 | Flash | I grep'd for it and didn't find it |
| 05:13.29 | AAA_awright | the system handler and extra handling in BZFlag |
| 05:13.39 | AAA_awright | No one wants the feature because no one realizes they want it ;) |
| 05:14.31 | brlcad | riiight |
| 05:14.56 | Flash | AAA_awright: I debated creating a custom URN protocol at work and found out that I really didn't need anything that HTTP didn't provide |
| 05:15.03 | brlcad | if you say there was a java web start launcher that did this (which I've never heard of) and it failed, I would say that's case in point false then |
| 05:15.25 | Flash | there needs to be more than gee-whiz application of technology; there needs to be a problem that is uniquely solved by the application of technology |
| 05:15.59 | AAA_awright | Because it had to be installed, and no one installed it. Additionally, it wasn't a URL, it was a Java app that executed an external program. How many people are going to allow a 3rd party website to do that? |
| 05:16.19 | brlcad | eh, then you totally don't understand what a java web start app is then |
| 05:16.47 | AAA_awright | Not web start, this was an applet (maybe I just don't remember) |
| 05:17.56 | brlcad | I'd have a problem with a web page running apps for me |
| 05:18.16 | Flash | it's a pretty basic security issue |
| 05:18.22 | brlcad | I'd be even more pissed if some game started registering URL handlers without telling me and/or allowing me to turn those features off |
| 05:18.35 | brlcad | and doing that gets rather OS-specific |
| 05:18.42 | brlcad | it's not just C++ code |
| 05:18.50 | brlcad | a huge maintenance burden |
| 05:19.07 | brlcad | and installation option hell |
| 05:19.15 | AAA_awright | It's... not that big |
| 05:19.34 | Flash | brlcad: nevermind about the dtor thing; my grep script wasn't looking in .cpp files |
| 05:19.48 | brlcad | the handler itself is trivial |
| 05:19.52 | brlcad | you're just parsing a string |
| 05:19.55 | AAA_awright | Oh, does NSIS have this in BZFlag? http://nsis.sourceforge.net/Games_plug-in |
| 05:19.58 | brlcad | that's not what I'm talking about |
| 05:20.32 | javawizard2539 | I'm for the URL handler |
| 05:20.38 | javawizard2539 | but that's just my vote |
| 05:21.01 | AAA_awright | The handler is a registry entry in Windows, and it would be a check box in the installer, which I know you can do |
| 05:21.29 | brlcad | javawizard2539: opinion heard, but fyi we don't "vote" when it comes to usability impacting features |
| 05:22.03 | javawizard2539 | I know |
| 05:22.10 | brlcad | AAA_awright: and you've taken care of 1 platform .. you gonna do them all? |
| 05:22.27 | brlcad | and maintain them all |
| 05:22.28 | javawizard2539 | I just figured that by saying so I'm making it known that there's more than one person who wants it |
| 05:22.45 | brlcad | that much was obvious javawizard2539 :) |
| 05:22.48 | javawizard2539 | :) |
| 05:23.07 | javawizard2539 | Doing it in Windows is pretty easy |
| 05:23.20 | javawizard2539 | However, other platforms might be more difficult |
| 05:23.26 | AAA_awright | javawizard2539: In regard to what? |
| 05:23.32 | AAA_awright | the reg entry, or NSIS? |
| 05:23.38 | javawizard2539 | NSIS? |
| 05:23.54 | javawizard2539 | All I've done before to do it is tweak the registry and point it at my program, and off we go |
| 05:23.55 | AAA_awright | And other platforms, I am not even sure of they have handlers, but in that case, those systems have not lost anything |
| 05:24.20 | AAA_awright | GNOME... for some reason I think it does? But at the same time... I don't think so... |
| 05:24.22 | AAA_awright | checks |
| 05:25.09 | AAA_awright | It's a gconf entry, and web browsers may or may not implement it |
| 05:25.29 | purple_cow | man, tonight is so boring I'm actually looking at this channel |
| 05:25.38 | brlcad | ease of "doing it" has absolutely nothing to do with it .. it's that it's an OS-specific hook that we'd have to maintain everywhere that affects both installation, increases options, and is questionable value (and potential for abuse/security issues) |
| 05:26.23 | AAA_awright | it isn't hard to check that it is secure |
| 05:26.26 | AAA_awright | Point taken |
| 05:26.27 | javawizard2539 | twenty thousand things are OS specific in bzflag from what I've seen |
| 05:26.39 | javawizard2539 | Now contrast that to java, and a URL handler doesn't look so bad |
| 05:26.41 | AAA_awright | Point there too |
| 05:26.57 | AAA_awright | Though it would be a good thing to minimize that anyways, I assume |
| 05:29.02 | brlcad | and those things are abstracted into a source library -- this is not source, it's installer modifications |
| 05:29.37 | brlcad | ones that really would need to be optional (and default off probably), to which the benefit would be even more minimal |
| 05:30.20 | brlcad | I don't see this as actually fixing any "problem", it's more just a "it'd be neat" maybe potentially useful if there weren't other ramifications |
| 05:31.52 | AAA_awright | The installers are already platform specific, so those can be dealt with. The parser isn't much either, it is a few added lines to bzflag.cxx. Worst case, the url syntax becomes valid and no one ever uses the shell handler. |
| 05:32.07 | AAA_awright | (Because it is never registered by any installer) |
| 05:32.13 | brlcad | javawizard2539: actually I'd probably prefer the java approach if there was an actual strong need/requirement for this feature, because it's put on the servers/sites that would have the links, the user is prompted whether they want to allow it, and it doesn't require any client mods |
| 05:32.34 | brlcad | but then that premise is false, there's not an actual strong need/requirement for it, so mostly moot |
| 05:33.30 | javawizard2539 | hmm |
| 05:33.46 | javawizard2539 | In my experience, getting java to allow an app to run programs is not an easy task |
| 05:34.04 | javawizard2539 | and how does the app know where the user's unstalled bzflag? |
| 05:34.10 | javawizard2539 | *installed |
| 05:35.08 | AAA_awright | Java, even Web Start, isn't portable, I don't think it targets this kind of use well enough |
| 05:36.37 | AAA_awright | Java is portable, Java applications are not (same thing with Flash) |
| 05:37.04 | AAA_awright | In the sense that it won't work for 1/4 of your user base |
| 05:38.20 | brlcad | hell, i'm not arguing for it |
| 05:38.30 | brlcad | I don't think there's a need for the feature at all frankly |
| 05:38.39 | brlcad | at least not now to say the least |
| 05:38.51 | brlcad | it's not worth the problems |
| 05:39.44 | AAA_awright | Flash: It is a URL because it specifies a network location of the resource, as opposed to just a global identifier that is a URN |
| 05:40.28 | AAA_awright | Actually, a URN always starts with "urn:", both are a subset of URI;s |
| 05:41.53 | AAA_awright | brlcad: There can't be *that* many problems, now can there? (twelve sleepless days later...) |
| 05:44.12 | AAA_awright | I'll look into it, It is like... chunky spaghetti sauce, prior to extensive taste testing, not one (well maybe two) person ever told a spaghetti sauce company "I like my sauce chunky." Today, about 1/3 of sales are for chunky. ;) |
| 05:44.32 | AAA_awright | What was my other idea... |
| 05:45.33 | AAA_awright | brlcad: I thought of a packet that would update the client with the list of slash commands it can use, it would be used on the command menu and for tab completion. It would be updated with the correct permissions for commands and when plugins register a command. |
| 05:45.40 | AAA_awright | blast seemed to like it |
| 05:48.08 | *** join/#bzflag KingofCamelot (i=KingofCa@SCT-52-221.resnet.ucsb.edu) |
| 05:48.16 | brlcad | sounds fairly reasonable |
| 05:49.03 | AAA_awright | The trouble if anything would be the client, the server seems to have the plugin list in one place. |
| 05:49.18 | brlcad | not sure it needs to be a new packet type, existing support for some of the commands is borderline related |
| 05:49.40 | AAA_awright | I thought about a global variable, but I don't think that is what it was intended for |
| 05:50.31 | brlcad | the only problem I can see is getting into a situation where the server is injecting (potentially) bad behavior on a client, there'd need to be some basic protections |
| 05:51.09 | brlcad | e.g. some commands are fundamentally always available imo for consistency sake |
| 05:51.17 | brlcad | take something like /quit for example |
| 05:51.25 | AAA_awright | The client does need to do some basic sanity checks on the server. You can do that with server variables too though |
| 05:51.27 | brlcad | the server shouldn't be allowed to disable that |
| 05:52.00 | AAA_awright | The client would keep it's internal commands which always exist, such as the list of users, local commands like /quit, /part, /localset, etc |
| 05:52.26 | AAA_awright | tab completion would be the union of both sets |
| 05:52.28 | brlcad | even many server commands |
| 05:52.36 | brlcad | and that's where it gets a little tricky |
| 05:52.54 | brlcad | server might take away permission .. but it shouldn't take away the command |
| 05:52.55 | AAA_awright | If tab completion fails for /ban, type it out |
| 05:53.05 | AAA_awright | It isn't that hard :p |
| 05:53.15 | brlcad | never said it ways |
| 05:53.18 | brlcad | was |
| 05:53.34 | brlcad | but it's an important issue to not hand wave as not being a problem |
| 05:54.44 | AAA_awright | *waves hands wildly in air* I am not a problem! Absolutely no problem whatsoever! Nor am I annoying!!!!1111one1eleven1 ;) |
| 05:55.57 | brlcad | wanders |
| 05:56.25 | AAA_awright | What possible problems could this generate for a user? Assuming basic sanity checks. |
| 05:56.44 | *** join/#bzflag Ride- (i=45d2764f@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-6bec7eb6311aff22) |
| 05:57.41 | AAA_awright | Most people don't even use tab completion, nor the command menu, so it isn't like anything has been lost. I can't think of any, except possible bugs, but those shouldn't exist anyways. |
| 05:59.16 | brlcad | you seem to have selective reading .. aside from being strawman excuses |
| 05:59.54 | brlcad | the problems are potential usability, UI, consistency problems |
| 06:00.07 | AAA_awright | Now we worry about UI ;) |
| 06:00.08 | brlcad | nothing that can't be overcome, that's why I said it sounded reasonable |
| 06:00.16 | AAA_awright | The server can disable any server command it likes, this isn't changing anything |
| 06:00.34 | brlcad | believe it or not, a lot of thought actually has gone into the UI |
| 06:01.11 | brlcad | along with feature creep and as much consistency as you can get with a distributed set of devs over more than a decade of changes and changers |
| 06:02.52 | brlcad | not presently, at least as far as the client knows -- the server doesn't change the client, it just returns a different response if it doesn't want to support whichever feature/command |
| 06:03.44 | brlcad | you're talking about a change that would effectively have the server changing the client's behavior (however minor) |
| 06:04.22 | brlcad | in a potential non-feedback manner (my command that i know used to exist now no longer completes and I get no reason as to why) |
| 06:04.50 | AAA_awright | The server can change the client, MsgUpdateVar |
| 06:05.17 | AAA_awright | er |
| 06:05.19 | brlcad | and each var is negotiated individually as to what they can/can't do |
| 06:05.27 | L4m3r | would it not make more sense to just make the client dumber and move more commands to the server? |
| 06:05.29 | AAA_awright | MsgSetVar |
| 06:05.35 | AAA_awright | brlcad: Same thing here |
| 06:05.51 | brlcad | AAA_awright: and? |
| 06:06.37 | brlcad | that's part of the care I'm saying would need to go into it |
| 06:06.42 | AAA_awright | To what extent they can/can't do something, I have not seen any case where that applies, I have seen gravity set to positive 10 multiple times. Altitude overflows rather fast. |
| 06:07.08 | L4m3r | that's often a typo |
| 06:07.15 | L4m3r | and it is a valid behavior |
| 06:07.34 | L4m3r | you can always put a roof over the map ;) |
| 06:07.50 | AAA_awright | Of course it is, I can see why you would want that (even if it has little use) |
| 06:08.28 | AAA_awright | Anyways, of course sanity checks would be added. If done properly, more people would use the slash commands because it would... work better. |
| 06:08.46 | Flash | Thumper_: can you come back to foxburrow again? |
| 06:08.48 | AAA_awright | Plugins would be used more often... wait, is that a bug or a feature ;) |
| 06:09.27 | brlcad | that "of course" is yet more hand waving -- that's the important point being made |
| 06:10.03 | Flash | think_tank: there you are.... can you come to foxburrow |
| 06:10.05 | brlcad | there are a fair bit of sanity, UI, consistency issues that should be part of any work that did that |
| 06:10.17 | think_tank | yes |
| 06:10.22 | brlcad | if the point is to just get rid of a command table in the client, that's kinda pointless |
| 06:10.34 | AAA_awright | I never disputed that, and it is fairly common sense to (semi-experienced) developers in any field |
| 06:10.36 | brlcad | even just to make it so you can tab-complete plugin commands is kinda petty |
| 06:11.28 | brlcad | AAA_awright: and yet the effort rarely is fully put in on most software |
| 06:11.34 | AAA_awright | So what is your problem with it, I don't see the point. I can solve problems, I can't fix speculation. |
| 06:11.41 | brlcad | good grief |
| 06:11.51 | AAA_awright | Well sorry |
| 06:11.51 | brlcad | must I draw everything in a big black magic marker? |
| 06:12.00 | brlcad | I didn't say I had a problem with it |
| 06:12.07 | brlcad | in fact I said the opposite |
| 06:12.17 | AAA_awright | Be it the idea, the implementation, the people, what? |
| 06:12.18 | brlcad | but that there ARE still concerns, very important ones |
| 06:12.57 | brlcad | I wasn't speculating at all, I was rather specific |
| 06:13.47 | brlcad | "if done properly" and "it would.. work better" is speculative and vague |
| 06:14.40 | brlcad | it's all in the details of how it pertains to the UI, usability, consistency .. none of which you went into |
| 06:14.49 | AAA_awright | Alrighty. Is it a good idea, that would be good to implement, assuming no problems? |
| 06:15.23 | CIA-33 | BZFlag: 03kingofcamelot * r17366 10/branches/gsoc_server_listing/src/bzflag/HUDuiScrollList.cxx: setPaged method no longer crashes the game...but still acting quirky. |
| 06:16.30 | AAA_awright | Focusing on tab-completion and server command menu only right now. (that is all I proposed anyways) |
| 06:17.19 | brlcad | I've said what I intended, a leap to "it's a good idea" *entirely* depends on how the unstated assumptions are addressed |
| 06:17.40 | AAA_awright | So yes. |
| 06:17.57 | brlcad | dammit, so then no if you want a yes / no and want to play word games |
| 06:18.28 | AAA_awright | Fill in the "assuming no problems", and that is the answer. |
| 06:18.40 | AAA_awright | Are there any apparent or possible problems that could make this less then desirable, in the bug/implementation field? |
| 06:18.52 | brlcad | assuming no problems, we can make bzflag make me a ham sandwich |
| 06:18.57 | brlcad | that's a total BS caveat |
| 06:19.04 | AAA_awright | ... |
| 06:21.56 | brlcad | apparent or possible problems .. in the UI .. usability .. consistency; enough to be complete and outright deal-breakers if not dealt with well (and for some as yet undefined measure of wellness) |
| 06:22.18 | brlcad | i gave an example |
| 06:22.21 | AAA_awright | First I am assessing if this is a good idea, well founded, and worth working on. The feasibility test. If that is the case, then I investigate what possible problems could pop up, in regards to code, implementation, bugs, UI, quality. Then I prototype it, make sure it is feasible (again). |
| 06:22.37 | brlcad | if I can't tab-complete something like quit or lagstats, that'd be just wrong |
| 06:23.30 | AAA_awright | It is far less of an issue then allowing servers to create their own flags, say. |
| 06:23.54 | brlcad | I already said that it sounds reasonable and probably feasible -- that, however, still does not in the least bit translate into "it's a good idea" |
| 06:24.39 | AAA_awright | (to play word games) /could/ it be a good idea? |
| 06:24.47 | brlcad | I disagree, I expect a server to provide the map/world for me to play in |
| 06:25.15 | brlcad | many of the commands, even server commands, are more basic *application* functionality that are not server-centric |
| 06:25.20 | AAA_awright | The server is also providing /lagstats, so I see that as a non-issue. This wouldn't be disabled without a code mod anyways. |
| 06:25.22 | brlcad | even if a server might want to turn one off |
| 06:25.52 | brlcad | whether via a plugin or not |
| 06:26.01 | AAA_awright | The .5% of servers that have it modified to be disabled probably are not worth playing on. |
| 06:26.07 | brlcad | a plugin turning off lagstats is no different than the server disabling it |
| 06:26.24 | brlcad | and presently, it's disabled via permissions |
| 06:26.30 | brlcad | that's very different from client removal |
| 06:26.50 | AAA_awright | Even if it is a popular server, I disagree to begin with that a player should be required to use slash commands, so it would only be an administrator issue. |
| 06:26.50 | brlcad | I technically still run the command |
| 06:27.02 | brlcad | the result is just that the server tells me it's not allowed |
| 06:27.44 | AAA_awright | This isn't a list that says which commands are allowed, it is a list of commands the server knows. |
| 06:27.48 | brlcad | it's the different between a filesystem result of permission denied and file not found .. the latter would be bad for our usability |
| 06:28.10 | brlcad | for at least may of our commands |
| 06:28.12 | AAA_awright | There may be a bit that says do you have permissions for this command |
| 06:28.16 | brlcad | s/may/many |
| 06:29.58 | AAA_awright | I don't see the (potential) issue, this is analogous to a particular OS not having a file or command so bash can't tab-complete it. |
| 06:30.17 | brlcad | you again seem to be missing or ignoring my point -- neither the server nor plugins should be allowed to complete *remove* some commands (ever) from the client as if they didn't exist -- some are client-side commands, some are server-side commands |
| 06:30.29 | AAA_awright | Why would plugins be able to do that? |
| 06:30.45 | brlcad | because that is what you originally described |
| 06:31.35 | AAA_awright | There is a central list of known commands, yes? The server pulls from the list and executes the appropriate object function as needed. (kinda) |
| 06:31.36 | brlcad | and to be specific, we are talking about tab-completion of known-commands |
| 06:31.54 | AAA_awright | object method. |
| 06:33.43 | brlcad | back to the original example, the server nor plugins should be able to remove my ability to tab-complete /quit or /lagstats for example, that's UI consistency and usability that should not be server-dependent (the result of the action, sure .. but not the invocation of the action itself) |
| 06:34.31 | AAA_awright | Well, since it is tied to the availability of the command, if the server can't remove /lagstats, they can't change the list either. |
| 06:36.21 | brlcad | they certainly can't remove it if the client keeps a list of the ones that should always be available |
| 06:36.36 | AAA_awright | If plugins can remove server commands, there are bigger problems. |
| 06:36.44 | brlcad | and that takes care of the untrusted abusive server too |
| 06:37.10 | brlcad | keeping it *all* server-side just sounds like it's begging for problems |
| 06:37.12 | AAA_awright | They can't remove the internal command, but that isn't much good if they can still remove the actual command. |
| 06:37.33 | AAA_awright | Has the goal not been to move more logic to the server? |
| 06:38.27 | brlcad | game logic, sure |
| 06:39.12 | brlcad | that (again) is part of the point .. there are many client and server commands that aren't game logic, they're user interface |
| 06:39.21 | AAA_awright | This is a nice feature I think, because the client now knows what the server is capable of, versus guessing all servers are bzfs with set A of commands |
| 06:39.29 | brlcad | those commands should be handled differently |
| 06:39.35 | brlcad | or at least with fall-backs |
| 06:39.43 | brlcad | so that they remain consistent |
| 06:39.45 | AAA_awright | Slash commands are not client UI, and I disagree that anyone should be required to use them |
| 06:40.18 | brlcad | nobody except you has said anything about requiring them |
| 06:40.31 | brlcad | so I don't see what you're disagreeing with |
| 06:40.53 | brlcad | and BS -- they are client UI |
| 06:41.14 | brlcad | i'm talking to the app, not the game |
| 06:41.24 | AAA_awright | It is a chat message which the server handles specially. Some like /localset are client UI, and those need to be a menu, not a slash command |
| 06:41.56 | brlcad | those could be *also* a menu, but that's not a case for them *not* being a slash command |
| 06:42.23 | brlcad | and you're seriously diverging the discussion now, long past a point of being productive |
| 06:42.53 | AAA_awright | I don't know how I feel about clients intercepting some commands, like incomplete /set commands and /localset. /part and /quit offer functionality on top of the server, which is alright (I think). |
| 06:45.08 | AAA_awright | brlcad: If plugins cannot remove the tab-completion from the client, due to the fact that they cannot de-register server commands, then what is the issue? |
| 06:46.06 | brlcad | i'm certain how I feel about it, that's one of those design decisions that we're just going to stick to .. a self-consistent UI with reliable/repeatable/expected app behavior for app actions is a good thing |
| 06:47.07 | AAA_awright | Put it this way: If the server does not recognize /lagstats, say, because I removed the command, then the client saying it exists is a UI flaw. |
| 06:47.18 | brlcad | then the only issue would probably be the protocol itself and/or implementation detail as to whether a server could abuse their technical-ability to modify that list |
| 06:49.08 | brlcad | I agree with that statement to an extent, but again it's still more (just?) a matter of "not found" vs. "I don't want you to run that" |
| 06:49.20 | *** join/#bzflag O-Neil (n=Miranda@dslb-088-070-061-153.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 06:50.27 | AAA_awright | "I don't want you to run that" isn't an issue, if someone doesn't want that command run, just edit, recompile, and no more command. It has nothing to do with what the client knows as available commands. |
| 06:50.30 | brlcad | the server's obscure distaste for having clients running /quit and having it spam the plays with a goodbye message shouldn't affect that user's ability to run /quit (with tab-completion) |
| 06:51.04 | *** join/#bzflag eTangenT` (n=etangent@71-211-200-94.hlrn.qwest.net) |
| 06:51.13 | brlcad | even with a source mod |
| 06:51.27 | brlcad | if you can tackle that problem, then it'd probably be workable |
| 06:51.42 | AAA_awright | If someone wants to stop a command, you only have to remove three lines. Per command. To remove the advertisement of a command would take lots more, *added* lines of code. |
| 06:52.17 | brlcad | eh, they can't presently stop my client from running /quit |
| 06:52.36 | brlcad | they could choose to not process it, not recognize it, not relay the message, etc, but that doesn't affect me |
| 06:52.43 | AAA_awright | The client would close, but the server wouldn't recognize the command if you removed it. |
| 06:52.49 | AAA_awright | Yes? |
| 06:53.05 | brlcad | you self-contradict a lot |
| 06:53.45 | AAA_awright | I am actually unclear on what conditions the client closes or parts |
| 06:54.00 | brlcad | it's just an example command |
| 06:54.08 | AAA_awright | Does it wait for MsgSuperKill? That would change things. Nevermind. |
| 06:54.38 | brlcad | if you still don't see what i've been getting at about consistent UI interactions for app commands after this long, then we're not making productive progress |
| 06:54.46 | brlcad | and I have better things to do |
| 06:55.59 | AAA_awright | What does "consistent UI interactions" have to do with it? If the server for some odd reason does not have a standard command, it shouldn't be available in the client. If the server wants to advertise it does not have a command when it does... I don't see the issue. |
| 06:56.11 | brlcad | i'm done with the discussion, sorry |
| 06:56.13 | AAA_awright | (Actually, it has everything to do with that) |
| 06:57.12 | AAA_awright | ...Fine. |
| 06:58.53 | brlcad | sorry, and thanks |
| 07:13.09 | Flash | having taken the time to skim through the past hour's "discussion", I have just one thought |
| 07:13.40 | Flash | as plugins add new commands (I think of the useless mine plugin) a server may or may not honor what I think is a valid command |
| 07:13.53 | Flash | is it so different from the traditionally built-in commands? |
| 07:14.22 | Flash | or, it is better to say "you can't do that" than to say "huh?" |
| 07:15.25 | *** join/#bzflag eTa`out (n=etangent@71-211-200-94.hlrn.qwest.net) |
| 07:16.10 | blast007 | Flash: I don't think plugins can override built-in server commands |
| 07:16.26 | blast007 | though I haven't tried |
| 07:17.27 | AAA_awright | Flash: It appears that plugin commands are put into their own list, then UNIONed (I am thinking in SQL mode at the moment) with the server command list |
| 07:17.35 | AAA_awright | So no |
| 07:18.30 | AAA_awright | That isn't a part of bzfs I specialize in yet however |
| 07:19.53 | AAA_awright | Wait. bzfs tries to execute custom commands first, then built-in ones |
| 07:20.15 | AAA_awright | So while it cannot remove it, it can override it |
| 07:20.27 | AAA_awright | [a plugin] |
| 07:21.32 | AAA_awright | And there are no utilities that prevent it from registering a registered command, it appears |
| 07:33.59 | DTRemenak | correct. that is intentional. plugins may extend builtin commands with additional functionality. if they extend a builtin command it is their responsibility to return as if it were not handled, if the extended behavior is not triggered. |
| 07:36.03 | DTRemenak | bzflag does not typically "protect" against misbehaved servers. if someone builds a server that changes all the commands to chinese and disables the normal ones, that's fine. don't play there if you don't like it. |
| 07:44.29 | *** join/#bzflag Viza (i=viza@nylug/member/Viza) |
| 07:58.48 | javawizard2539 | Reading over the past couple hours' worth of conversation, I would agree with AAA |
| 07:59.02 | javawizard2539 | and I don't see what brl's issue was |
| 08:01.01 | javawizard2539 | and if anyone's looking for some time to kill... |
| 08:01.03 | javawizard2539 | check this out |
| 08:01.11 | javawizard2539 | www.trivergia.com/scupload |
| 08:01.29 | javawizard2539 | It's a work-in-progress |
| 08:01.35 | javawizard2539 | (as in started about a week ago) |
| 08:02.10 | javawizard2539 | and will hopefully keep itself up-to-date to within something like 3 days |
| 08:06.49 | AAA_awright | javawizard2539: Who is doing that? |
| 08:07.10 | javawizard2539 | what do you mean? |
| 08:07.56 | AAA_awright | Who is programming that. I had an idea to implement that into BZFlag stats, it downloads the map then renders it locally on the server page |
| 08:08.01 | javawizard2539 | me |
| 08:08.03 | AAA_awright | Redjacket Stats |
| 08:08.13 | AAA_awright | javawizard2539: Ah, neat |
| 08:08.18 | javawizard2539 | Exactly what it does |
| 08:08.30 | javawizard2539 | I hacked a client to get rid of most of the unwanted stuff |
| 08:08.53 | javawizard2539 | and upon connecting to a server, it switches to roaming observer and positions itself into a location specified in the config file |
| 08:09.07 | javawizard2539 | then screenshots and exits |
| 08:18.19 | javawizard2539 | Is anyone going to be mad if I have a program that queries the list server once every 10 minutes for a few hour period every few days? |
| 08:19.04 | AAA_awright | javawizard2539: With a callsign? |
| 08:19.08 | AAA_awright | Yes. |
| 08:19.23 | AAA_awright | Simply connecting and downloading, no joining? No. |
| 08:19.58 | javawizard2539 | downloading but not joining |
| 08:20.02 | AAA_awright | That's alright |
| 08:20.05 | javawizard2539 | ok |
| 08:20.09 | AAA_awright | Does it cache the md5sum? |
| 08:20.17 | AAA_awright | So it doesn't need to download each time? |
| 08:20.25 | javawizard2539 | of the listserv? |
| 08:20.28 | javawizard2539 | Does it provide one? |
| 08:20.30 | AAA_awright | Of the map |
| 08:20.35 | javawizard2539 | I think so |
| 08:20.41 | javawizard2539 | It uses whatever is built in to bzflag |
| 08:20.52 | AAA_awright | Yes, the server provides an md5 sum of the map, that is the global identifier for that map |
| 08:20.57 | javawizard2539 | ok |
| 08:21.13 | javawizard2539 | the part that generates the 3D images is more or less a hacked copy of BZFlag 2.0.10 |
| 08:21.30 | *** join/#bzflag ndim (i=hun@moooo.n-dimensional.de) |
| 08:21.30 | AAA_awright | So it joins, check if the map md5sum is new, if so, it downloads and gets a screenshot, but no callsign ever? |
| 08:21.33 | AAA_awright | That is ideal |
| 08:21.46 | javawizard2539 | I can't figure out how to do it without a callsign |
| 08:21.50 | AAA_awright | Oh |
| 08:22.00 | javawizard2539 | It downloads the list server automatically |
| 08:22.09 | AAA_awright | Forget the list server |
| 08:22.10 | javawizard2539 | I think there's a way to join as an observer without a callsign but I don't know how |
| 08:22.14 | javawizard2539 | ok |
| 08:22.19 | AAA_awright | No there is not |
| 08:22.26 | javawizard2539 | How does bzflag stats do it? |
| 08:22.42 | AAA_awright | javawizard2539: Use a few tricks I use |
| 08:22.59 | AAA_awright | I cache the list server. I scan the list server every two minutes and check for changes |
| 08:23.29 | javawizard2539 | hm |
| 08:23.34 | javawizard2539 | I hadn't thought of that |
| 08:23.43 | javawizard2539 | I was just going to connect once every few days and screenshot anyway |
| 08:23.45 | AAA_awright | I use an algroithm to do some predicting on current stats, and if there is not enough info, it connects and gets it |
| 08:23.58 | javawizard2539 | but yeah, that's a good idea |
| 08:24.28 | javawizard2539 | So you run stats? |
| 08:24.34 | AAA_awright | It only needs to connect and download from 5-10 servers every few mintutes that way |
| 08:24.56 | AAA_awright | javawizard2539: It was at bzflag.redjacket.ws for a while, but my host has gone down three times since then |
| 08:25.11 | AAA_awright | Each server I run it on ends up throwing in the towel >_> |
| 08:25.26 | javawizard2539 | :) |
| 08:25.29 | AAA_awright | Now BZFX has a dedicated server, things should be better |
| 08:25.48 | AAA_awright | javawizard2539: Sorry no fancy CSS yet http://bzfx.net/redjacketstats/ |
| 08:26.48 | javawizard2539 | It's giving me an error |
| 08:27.07 | javawizard2539 | AAA_awright: it's giving me an error |
| 08:27.17 | javawizard2539 | I always forget to ping when sending a message |
| 08:27.20 | javawizard2539 | :) |
| 08:28.08 | AAA_awright | javawizard2539: Working on it |
| 08:32.05 | javawizard2539 | ok |
| 08:32.29 | javawizard2539 | AAA_awright: Is it possible to lengthen the backclip of the scene when it's rendered by bzflag? |
| 08:32.46 | AAA_awright | idk, should be |
| 08:32.58 | javawizard2539 | ok |
| 08:32.59 | AAA_awright | javawizard2539: Fixed |
| 08:33.18 | AAA_awright | The front page at least |
| 08:33.22 | AAA_awright | >_< |
| 08:35.31 | javawizard2539 | :) |
| 08:35.35 | javawizard2539 | I like it though |
| 08:38.05 | javawizard2539 | Hmm, there appears to be a server that doesn't allow observers |
| 08:38.34 | javawizard2539 | which just through my screenbot completely whack, with stack traces everywhere :) |
| 08:38.53 | javawizard2539 | well, 'night everyone |
| 08:43.28 | AAA_awright | javawizard2539: ping |
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| 13:23.09 | Winny | fl.h in BZWB refers to FLTK, right? |
| 13:23.43 | brlcad | yeah, I believe so |
| 13:24.00 | Winny | k |
| 13:25.26 | Winny | 2 or 1? The README doens't say |
| 13:26.33 | Winny | ahh, 1.1.7, never mind |
| 13:32.22 | Winny | builds BZWB |
| 13:38.12 | Winny | or not |
| 13:47.51 | Winny | one error down one to go |
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| 15:13.45 | tj13820 | i'm trying to set up mapchange. could someone tell me the best way to do it? my .sh file isn't working properly, and i get errors that my files aren't found. |
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| 17:38.05 | Falseprophet | "Adolf Hitler's stint as a jobbing painter has always been rather overshadowed by his subsequent career in politics. " |
| 17:38.07 | Falseprophet | UNDERSTATEMENT OF THE YEAR |
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| 17:53.06 | jude- | hello all |
| 17:55.54 | delusional | always good to see you, jude |
| 17:56.29 | jude- | how is it going, delusional? |
| 17:57.15 | delusional | working with drawinfo is hard, but I've got a map with 100,00 triangles, and I get 160 FPS on it |
| 17:57.58 | delusional | this map, i've been working on it 4 months.. doesnt seem any nearer to completion than when i started |
| 17:58.14 | jude- | O.o |
| 17:58.18 | jude- | that's a lot of polygons! |
| 17:58.30 | jude- | what's the map theme? |
| 17:58.45 | delusional | wherever possible, i try to use triangles, exclusively |
| 17:58.56 | delusional | it's a round racetrack |
| 17:59.21 | delusional | got some pretty good cars, and some pretty half-ass cars |
| 17:59.21 | jude- | nice |
| 17:59.37 | jude- | do the cars move? |
| 18:00.19 | delusional | if i want them to, i think i'm not gonna go that route, and have the cars stay still while the landscape moves around them. |
| 18:00.30 | jude- | hehe |
| 18:00.34 | jude- | that works too :) |
| 18:00.40 | delusional | creating the illusion of movement, where none exists |
| 18:00.57 | delusional | also.. tanks cant interact with moving cars |
| 18:01.16 | jude- | but they can at least provide visual cover |
| 18:01.40 | delusional | I made a skydome awhile back.. it's integral |
| 18:02.04 | jude- | is the racetrack in a closed stadium? |
| 18:02.16 | jude- | (e.g. the skydome gives that illusion?) |
| 18:02.25 | delusional | if i ever get some good stadium textures |
| 18:02.44 | jude- | yeah, those can be hard to find online |
| 18:02.59 | Lukstr | jude-: not sticking around, but hello! |
| 18:03.08 | jude- | hey Lukstr! how goes GSoC? |
| 18:03.17 | Lukstr | slow so far |
| 18:03.18 | jude- | (congrats on getting in, btw) |
| 18:03.20 | delusional | http://www.rcfisher.com/peyton_kt.php |
| 18:03.25 | Lukstr | going to put 110% in this week though :P |
| 18:03.33 | Lukstr | thanks :) |
| 18:03.35 | jude- | cool |
| 18:03.44 | jude- | looks foreward to seeing the code in action |
| 18:03.45 | Lukstr | anyways, family birthday party. I will be back later |
| 18:03.48 | Lukstr | :) |
| 18:03.51 | jude- | later :) |
| 18:04.54 | jude- | waits for XINE to buffer the movie |
| 18:07.09 | delusional | working with drawinfo creates a TON of files. I have a minimum of 8 files, for each of 30 cars. |
| 18:07.38 | jude- | at least 240 files??? |
| 18:07.58 | jude- | I can't wait to see it! |
| 18:08.00 | delusional | I got just about every trick to speed things up now, except tristripping |
| 18:08.41 | jude- | the movie still hasn't loaded. do you know of a mirror? |
| 18:15.30 | delusional | It's a quicktim virtual reality |
| 18:36.39 | CIA-33 | BZFlag: 03wyk3d * r17367 10/trunk/bzauthd/ (libgcrypt/src/sexp.c test/test.cpp): |
| 18:36.39 | CIA-33 | BZFlag: * Fixed some debug crashes in the gcrypt library |
| 18:36.39 | CIA-33 | BZFlag: * Added some test code to generate an RSA key pair |
| 18:46.18 | Winny | jude-! |
| 18:47.29 | jude- | Winny! |
| 18:47.36 | jude- | what is up? |
| 18:47.46 | Winny | looks up |
| 18:47.52 | jude- | lol |
| 18:47.55 | Winny | hmm, spider, brb |
| 18:59.40 | TD-Linux | has never heard of gcrypt |
| 19:09.04 | Wyk3d | libgcrypt .. |
| 19:09.22 | Wyk3d | http://directory.fsf.org/project/libgcrypt/ |
| 19:12.00 | DTRemenak | you may never have heard of it, but you've probably used it |
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| 20:12.44 | *** join/#bzflag Paul_PL (n=pawelbl6@chello087206248103.chello.pl) |
| 20:12.51 | Paul_PL | hello all |
| 20:13.12 | Winny | good afternoon to you |
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| 20:23.01 | javawizard2539 | AAA_awright: My email is javawizard@trivergia.com |
| 20:41.18 | AAA_awright | ~AAA_awright |
| 20:41.19 | ibot | PHP Wizard |
| 20:41.23 | Winny | heh |
| 20:41.36 | AHA | ~me |
| 20:41.36 | ibot | you are probably an 1980s band that had a hit with \"Take on me\" - had a cool video clip :) |
| 20:41.45 | Winny | hehe |
| 20:47.25 | brlcad | such a great song |
| 20:49.50 | Winny | draws brlcad in strange animation cells |
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| 22:10.40 | HAPM | hi @ all |
| 22:11.46 | HAPM | i searched the problem in the www, found some threads about it, but they all haven't a solution to fix the problem for me |
| 22:12.11 | HAPM | if i start bzflag it tries to capture the soundcard |
| 22:12.36 | HAPM | but it doesn't work because i have a mp3 player running (linux ubuntu) |
| 22:12.58 | HAPM | so i have no sound in game |
| 22:13.39 | HAPM | i thought it would be the player so i tried starting other programs using the soundcard |
| 22:14.09 | HAPM | but i found that bzflag is the only one what holds these apps from playing there sounds |
| 22:14.24 | brlcad | HAPM: does it help if you specify hw:0 under the Options->Audio->Device menu |
| 22:14.25 | HAPM | using the player with other apps works fine |
| 22:14.45 | HAPM | simply hw:0 ? |
| 22:14.47 | HAPM | i'll try |
| 22:15.42 | HAPM | i typed it there but nothing changed |
| 22:15.51 | HAPM | i restartet and nothing changed either |
| 22:16.00 | brlcad | what are you using for audio? |
| 22:16.28 | HAPM | hmm not sure, very new to linux |
| 22:16.35 | HAPM | but should be ALSA |
| 22:16.46 | HAPM | if i understand u correctly |
| 22:16.55 | HAPM | my english isn't well, too |
| 22:17.30 | brlcad | alsa and oss are the two main popular ones |
| 22:17.35 | HAPM | my sound card is a realtec chipset |
| 22:17.46 | HAPM | yeah then i use ALSA |
| 22:18.26 | HAPM | i readed that in one of the threads i found and changed it but didn't solve my problem |
| 22:18.34 | brlcad | what's your ubuntu sound server set to? |
| 22:18.40 | brlcad | should be under system options iirc |
| 22:19.07 | HAPM | HAD Intel (Alsa mixer) <- that one |
| 22:19.54 | HAPM | *HDA |
| 22:20.17 | HAPM | i set all things i found to alsa if possible ^ |
| 22:20.28 | HAPM | *linux noob at work* |
| 22:21.23 | brlcad | hm, then maybe try "plughw:0" under device |
| 22:21.36 | brlcad | and if that doesn't work, try "default" |
| 22:22.03 | brlcad | testing both just setting it and then testing with bzflag restarted if no change |
| 22:22.13 | HAPM | should that be the name as appering under /dev/snd/ ? |
| 22:22.41 | brlcad | maybe |
| 22:22.53 | brlcad | what do you have? |
| 22:22.57 | HAPM | because there is an entry starting with hw |
| 22:23.05 | HAPM | hwC0D2 |
| 22:23.23 | HAPM | i'll try both |
| 22:24.22 | brlcad | dmesg might say what your audio device is |
| 22:24.28 | brlcad | that hwC0D2 isn't it |
| 22:25.01 | HAPM | k |
| 22:25.33 | brlcad | talks about the devices at http://alsa.opensrc.org/index.php/FAQ |
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| 22:30.35 | HAPM | hmm do u know any word in the message where the sound device is mentiont in dmesg so i can "grep" it? |
| 22:31.52 | brlcad | not specifically |
| 22:32.33 | HAPM | k, so if i find the correct string to put in the device option it should work? |
| 22:32.57 | HAPM | and what is the driver option for? |
| 22:34.12 | brlcad | did you try the other two I mentioned? |
| 22:34.41 | HAPM | yes |
| 22:34.53 | brlcad | it tells bzflag which audio device to use .. if the default isn't working that's usually indicative of some sound setup problem |
| 22:35.07 | brlcad | ubuntu has a myriad of sound options that make it fragile |
| 22:35.22 | brlcad | the sound apps try harder, we just rely on defaults |
| 22:36.02 | HAPM | tried hw:0 plughw:0 default and the one i said |
| 22:36.27 | brlcad | last time I was on ubuntu, I had sound, but it was being played back at 1/2 the sample rate, so explosions were actually pretty awesome sounding .. low gutteral drawn out explosions |
| 22:36.42 | HAPM | hehe |
| 22:37.05 | brlcad | every shot sounded more like mortar fire than gun fire |
| 22:37.07 | HAPM | if i start bzflag without any other application using the soundcard it works fine |
| 22:37.18 | brlcad | well there ya go ;) |
| 22:37.35 | brlcad | you shouldn't be doing anything other than playing bzflag of course ;) |
| 22:37.40 | Winny | hehe |
| 22:37.44 | HAPM | playing bzflag without music is bad |
| 22:38.28 | HAPM | the sounds getting very boring after 2hours of playing |
| 22:39.03 | brlcad | that could be something wrong with your mixer |
| 22:39.30 | HAPM | ah btw: does anyone of u know the badgerking server and can tell me why it is down? |
| 22:39.34 | brlcad | espectially if it works stand-alone |
| 22:39.38 | HAPM | hmm but other apps work fine |
| 22:40.02 | brlcad | like I said, other audio apps will often "try harder" to overcome misconfiguration |
| 22:40.08 | brlcad | we just say "here, play this" |
| 22:40.34 | HAPM | hmm, k |
| 22:40.58 | brlcad | kinda detrimental for an audio app to not play audio at all |
| 22:41.08 | HAPM | ehm one more point |
| 22:41.14 | HAPM | starting bzflag first |
| 22:41.28 | HAPM | and afterwards starting the other programs i get the same problem |
| 22:41.38 | brlcad | is dmix enabled for alsa? |
| 22:41.40 | HAPM | but than the mp3 player for ex. can't play |
| 22:41.42 | brlcad | that'd be what does the mixing |
| 22:42.05 | HAPM | not sure where i can see that |
| 22:42.25 | brlcad | that's how raw alsa works, if there's no mixer available -- linux audio via alsa locks audio to a device |
| 22:42.48 | HAPM | yeah i thought so |
| 22:42.55 | brlcad | stuff to check up on: http://alsa.opensrc.org/DmixPlugin |
| 22:43.01 | brlcad | and more: http://wiki.freespire.org/index.php/What's_Wrong_With_Linux_Audio |
| 22:43.04 | brlcad | ;) |
| 22:44.16 | HAPM | k |
| 22:45.24 | HAPM | hmm dmix is for software mixing |
| 22:45.44 | HAPM | thought my soundcard has a hardware mixer |
| 22:46.20 | brlcad | http://alsa.opensrc.org/index.php/Hardware_mixing,_software_mixing |
| 22:46.37 | brlcad | so maybe some other option you need to configure/enable |
| 22:57.55 | HAPM | hmm found an errormessage |
| 22:58.25 | HAPM | * pulseaudio[15034]: module-alsa-sink.c: Error opening PCM device front:0: Device or resource busy |
| 22:58.39 | HAPM | looks like that is the problem i have ^ |
| 23:22.27 | Winny | what was the library that bzrobots was built on? |
| 23:22.33 | Winny | robocode? |
| 23:22.47 | *** part/#bzflag HAPM (n=alpha@p50874D34.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 23:28.43 | brlcad | Winny: it wasn't build on top of any library |
| 23:28.55 | Winny | oh? |
| 23:29.02 | brlcad | the API it uses, though, is heavily and intentionally based on robocode's API |
| 23:29.18 | brlcad | robocode is a java code, though, it doesn't "use" any of it |
| 23:29.22 | Winny | ah, ok, guess I was confused |
| 23:32.53 | AAA_awright | Hm, this is proving harder to design then I thought |
| 23:32.58 | AAA_awright | Wow |
| 23:33.16 | Winny | AAA_awright, what is? |
| 23:33.45 | jude- | goes to play some games |
| 23:33.50 | AAA_awright | A generic flexible access control list implementation |
| 23:33.55 | Winny | jude-: BZFlag I hope ;) |
| 23:34.01 | jude- | yes :) |
| 23:34.03 | Winny | :) |
| 23:34.10 | Winny | where? I might come join you |
| 23:34.18 | Winny | pah |
| 23:34.34 | AAA_awright | It is supposed to cover both MasterBot servers and the daemon, each have a different set of permissions, plus the group permission file generated for BZFS |
| 23:35.17 | AAA_awright | It is supposed to cover multiple authentication methods too, like passdb, OpenID, and of course BZID |
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