| 00:09.20 | *** join/#bzflag Viza (i=viza@nylug/member/Viza) |
| 00:09.26 | *** join/#bzflag me1_ (n=You@unaffiliated/me1) |
| 00:40.39 | Winny | ~bzsvn |
| 00:40.40 | ibot | methinks bzsvn is http://my.bzflag.org/w/BZFlag_SVN and svn co https://bzflag.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/bzflag/trunk/bzflag bzflag |
| 00:40.58 | *** join/#bzflag jnd (n=jenda@unaffiliated/jnd) |
| 00:41.12 | jnd | do you know who is admin of dub server? |
| 00:41.56 | Winny | pokes Pimpinella |
| 00:42.14 | JeffM | Constitution, have you tried the branch yet? |
| 00:42.29 | jnd | there are four bots spamming shakespear play :) |
| 00:43.20 | Winny | I guess they got bored with cheating |
| 00:43.34 | blast007 | lol |
| 00:44.07 | jnd | its Richard II |
| 00:45.11 | Constitution | JeffM: yeah, kinda... downloaded and compiled it |
| 00:45.38 | blast007 | Le Ballon Rouge is there too |
| 00:45.42 | blast007 | probably them running them |
| 00:45.46 | blast007 | he's not playing |
| 00:46.00 | Winny | That's coogle AFAIK |
| 00:46.08 | JeffM | is that where you want to do your work? |
| 00:46.34 | Constitution | yeah that sounds good |
| 00:46.47 | JeffM | where are you going to start? |
| 00:47.12 | Constitution | figuring out what you did :) |
| 00:47.35 | JeffM | mostly moved shots around |
| 00:55.33 | Constitution | around, as in to the server, right? |
| 00:55.39 | Constitution | and something with timestamps? |
| 00:55.46 | JeffM | nothing with timestamp |
| 00:55.56 | JeffM | and no I did not move them to the server |
| 00:56.18 | JeffM | I split them from the sots |
| 00:56.26 | JeffM | and have the endshots coming from the server |
| 00:56.37 | blast007 | slots* |
| 00:56.50 | JeffM | heh |
| 00:57.21 | Constitution | ah right |
| 00:57.35 | JeffM | there is a server side shot manager |
| 00:58.43 | JeffM | so that is where you can build up a generic shot strat system |
| 00:58.49 | Constitution | well obviously shots are both client and server, I guess |
| 00:58.55 | Constitution | slaps head |
| 00:59.06 | Constitution | ok |
| 00:59.12 | JeffM | the strat i s still on the client only right now |
| 00:59.55 | Constitution | what's strat? |
| 01:00.10 | JeffM | stragegy |
| 01:00.18 | JeffM | the thing that comptues where the shot goes |
| 01:00.24 | Constitution | oh, ok |
| 01:02.42 | Constitution | based on velocity, position, and direction of the firing tank? |
| 01:06.14 | JeffM | and the type of shot |
| 01:06.17 | JeffM | rico, etc.. |
| 01:06.24 | JeffM | it does the collisions |
| 01:06.38 | JeffM | basicly at shot time the entire path of the shot is computed |
| 01:06.41 | JeffM | then interated |
| 01:07.28 | Constitution | I see |
| 01:09.15 | JeffM | since the world is static we can do that |
| 01:13.04 | Constitution | so theoritically, that should be absolutely consistent across all clients |
| 01:13.12 | Constitution | regardless of where it's calculated, as long as the data is correct |
| 01:13.16 | JeffM | yes |
| 01:13.22 | JeffM | as long as the input is the same |
| 01:13.28 | JeffM | hence the timestamp |
| 01:14.10 | JeffM | alsy why it should be ok for the server to keep it's own state and force the servers to use it |
| 01:16.21 | Constitution | s/servers/clients/? |
| 01:17.40 | JeffM | yeah sorry |
| 01:17.46 | JeffM | does not like t his keyboard much |
| 01:25.09 | *** join/#bzflag TD--Linux (n=wheeeeee@68-115-97-155.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com) |
| 01:25.35 | *** join/#bzflag Thumper_ (n=Thumper@about/essy/coffeeAddict/Thumper) |
| 01:29.25 | JeffM | ok so lost is a wierd show |
| 01:32.29 | F687s | It reminds me of Gilligan's Island. But for adults. |
| 01:36.23 | JeffM | there is no coconut based technology |
| 01:37.29 | F687s | Meh, I haven't (seriously) watch both shows in a while. They're both people trying to get off an island, right? |
| 01:45.06 | *** join/#bzflag AHA (n=aha@unaffiliated/aha) |
| 01:46.04 | BulletCatcher | blast007: Does the bzexcess.com server use NTP to keep its system clock synchronized? I am just wondering about what might contribute to the 2.99.x lag problem. |
| 01:47.41 | blast007 | hmm, I think I do |
| 01:47.59 | BulletCatcher | A "ntpq -p" command will tell you. |
| 01:48.00 | blast007 | yup |
| 01:48.09 | blast007 | I used 'ps aux' ;) |
| 01:48.40 | BulletCatcher | And does "ntpq -p" show good synchronization? |
| 01:49.04 | BulletCatcher | (offset column should be very close to zero) |
| 01:49.28 | blast007 | -0.164 |
| 01:49.39 | BulletCatcher | That is very good. |
| 01:49.40 | blast007 | jitter @ 0.201 |
| 01:49.53 | BulletCatcher | Okay, then. That isn't the problem. |
| 01:50.12 | blast007 | is that in seconds? |
| 01:50.25 | BulletCatcher | I think it is milliseconds. |
| 01:50.35 | blast007 | oh |
| 01:53.33 | BulletCatcher | Basically, it means your computer's clock is synchronized within a milliscond of an atomic clock. The jitter is also very low, so your computer is keeping very good time. Mine is the same, so we'll have to look elsewhere. Sigh. |
| 02:05.04 | *** join/#bzflag Ride- (n=Ride-@24-197-250-9.dhcp.stpt.wi.charter.com) |
| 02:08.13 | Viza | man, fox burrow is plagued by cheaters today |
| 02:08.41 | Flash | it's had problems since school started letting out |
| 02:14.32 | BulletCatcher | Flash: Do you not have a problem with bzf_key.ascii in src/platform/MacOSX/MacDisplay.cxx, or did you just quietly fix it for yourself and move on? |
| 02:16.09 | BulletCatcher | I have to change .ascii to .chr to match the corresponding change in include/BzfEvent.h . |
| 02:18.07 | *** join/#bzflag Ride288 (n=Ride-@24-197-250-9.dhcp.stpt.wi.charter.com) |
| 02:18.22 | Ride288 | sorry i lost connection |
| 02:23.03 | blast007 | JeffM: does the bzfs.lib bundled with 2.0.10 only work for VC 7.1? (and not the 2005 version?) |
| 02:23.31 | JeffM | it should work in emall? |
| 02:23.33 | JeffM | em all |
| 02:24.08 | blast007 | k, wasn't sure |
| 02:24.12 | blast007 | I've never tried |
| 02:33.13 | *** join/#bzflag Mets (n=Mets@cpe-72-224-55-41.nycap.res.rr.com) |
| 02:33.35 | *** join/#bzflag Ride288 (n=Ride-@24-197-250-9.dhcp.stpt.wi.charter.com) |
| 02:37.09 | *** join/#bzflag think_tank (n=think_ta@unaffiliated/thinktank/x-168245) |
| 02:39.54 | Mets | does anybody know the person who put together the readme.xmingw file for compiling for windows under linux? |
| 02:40.18 | Ride- | ask JeffM |
| 02:40.21 | JeffM | probably more then one |
| 02:40.31 | JeffM | DTRemenak shouldknow the guts of it |
| 02:40.34 | JeffM | I just do VC |
| 02:41.15 | Mets | they highlighted a bug in the configure script for curl for it to detect cares, but it still can't find it |
| 02:41.49 | JeffM | yeah you ahve to build a lot of things yourself for mingw |
| 02:41.53 | JeffM | to get it to work right |
| 02:42.18 | Mets | yeah, it was going fine up to this :) |
| 02:42.26 | JeffM | why not use VC? |
| 02:42.48 | Mets | I was going to but in the express version there was no vc++ directories option |
| 02:43.01 | Mets | to tell it to use the platform and directx sdks |
| 02:43.04 | JeffM | express 2005 or 2008? |
| 02:43.08 | Mets | 2005 |
| 02:43.11 | JeffM | yes there is |
| 02:43.17 | JeffM | tools options projects c++ |
| 02:43.33 | JeffM | I've done it |
| 02:43.34 | Mets | double checks |
| 02:43.49 | JeffM | or you can just copy the SDKs into the main dirs |
| 02:44.10 | Mets | tools - options - projects is there |
| 02:44.20 | JeffM | should be a dirs section in there |
| 02:44.25 | JeffM | let me check |
| 02:44.36 | Mets | only dirs section is for projects location and user templates |
| 02:45.20 | JeffM | what is listed under prjects and solutions? |
| 02:46.09 | Mets | three sub tabs - general, build and run, and vb defaults |
| 02:46.23 | JeffM | VB? |
| 02:46.34 | JeffM | did you install visual basic? or visual C++? |
| 02:46.52 | Mets | visual basic 2005 express edition |
| 02:46.57 | JeffM | well there is your problem |
| 02:47.03 | Mets | lol |
| 02:47.08 | Mets | i just clicked on the download link in the readme |
| 02:47.11 | JeffM | bzflag is not writenin basic |
| 02:47.19 | Mets | yeah... |
| 02:47.29 | Mets | guess i was on cruise controol |
| 02:47.32 | JeffM | you need C++ |
| 02:47.39 | JeffM | you doing trunk or branch? |
| 02:47.54 | Mets | was going to try both, just playing around |
| 02:47.59 | Ride- | Hi Mets |
| 02:48.04 | JeffM | where was the link? |
| 02:48.05 | Mets | hi ride |
| 02:48.55 | Mets | it's fine, I just didn't pay attention |
| 02:49.01 | JeffM | ahh you didn't read the page |
| 02:49.04 | JeffM | it lists them ALL |
| 02:49.08 | Mets | yeah |
| 02:49.22 | Mets | I just grabbed the first one, I knew I had a few things to download so I just tried to cruise through it |
| 02:50.34 | Mets | heh, well lets give the right program a try :p |
| 02:50.46 | blast007 | :) |
| 02:58.13 | *** join/#bzflag Ride288 (n=Ride-@24-197-250-9.dhcp.stpt.wi.charter.com) |
| 03:02.58 | Mets | heh, look at that, there's directories, thanks jeff |
| 03:03.20 | Ride- | Told ya', JeffM knows ALL :) |
| 03:04.09 | JeffM | doubtfull |
| 03:05.17 | *** join/#bzflag Ride288 (n=Ride-@24-197-250-9.dhcp.stpt.wi.charter.com) |
| 03:10.58 | BulletCatcher | The tools/modeltool/vc71 directory seems to be the last remnant of VS 7.1. Is it okay if I delete it? It would be good svn practice for me. |
| 03:12.11 | JeffM | is there a VC8 dir? |
| 03:12.23 | BulletCatcher | Yes. |
| 03:12.28 | JeffM | then yes |
| 03:12.37 | BulletCatcher | Okay. Will do. |
| 03:12.40 | blast007 | might want to make sure it builds with VC8 first ;) |
| 03:12.53 | blast007 | in case that project is out of date |
| 03:12.55 | JeffM | if there is one I made it and it should |
| 03:13.00 | BulletCatcher | Someone else will have to do that. I'll wait. |
| 03:16.05 | CIA-33 | BZFlag: 03JeffM2501 * r17303 10/trunk/bzflag/tools/modeltool/ (Makefile.am vc71/): bye bye VC71 |
| 03:17.18 | Mets | do i need glue and curses to build the client? |
| 03:17.50 | JeffM | trunk or branch? |
| 03:17.53 | Mets | trunk |
| 03:17.59 | JeffM | no |
| 03:18.21 | Mets | k bzfs builds but client seems to fail |
| 03:18.34 | JeffM | with what error? |
| 03:18.41 | Mets | I added the include and lib directories for PlatoformSDK and directx sdk |
| 03:18.53 | JeffM | what error? |
| 03:18.54 | Mets | errors about not being able to open glew and curses |
| 03:19.08 | JeffM | what target do you have? |
| 03:19.14 | JeffM | debug or debug distrobution? |
| 03:19.52 | Mets | I think debug |
| 03:19.57 | JeffM | you think or you know? |
| 03:20.01 | JeffM | check |
| 03:20.10 | JeffM | don't build the distrobution |
| 03:20.14 | JeffM | do regular debug |
| 03:20.28 | JeffM | distro needs glew and curses |
| 03:21.27 | Mets | k sorry where is this located? |
| 03:23.35 | JeffM | in the target pulldown |
| 03:24.20 | CIA-33 | BZFlag: 03bullet_catcher * r17304 10/trunk/bzflag/configure.ac: Ding, dong. VC71 is dead. |
| 03:24.45 | Mets | alright it was on distro, now I have a dsound.h error |
| 03:25.07 | JeffM | you downloaded a direct X SDK from after april 2007 |
| 03:25.24 | Mets | no april 2007 |
| 03:25.25 | JeffM | or no that is dinput |
| 03:25.26 | JeffM | hmm |
| 03:25.34 | JeffM | did you add all the dirs? |
| 03:25.59 | JeffM | and did you install ALL of the SDK? |
| 03:26.12 | Mets | i added bin, inlude, and lib for platformsdk and include and lib from directxsdk |
| 03:26.35 | JeffM | what is the error? |
| 03:27.21 | Mets | trunk\bzflag\src\platform\winmedia.h(22) : fatal error C1083: Cannot open include file: 'dsound.h': No such file or directory |
| 03:27.45 | Mets | it's building bzadmin and bzfs |
| 03:27.48 | Mets | no client |
| 03:28.12 | Mets | also, 5>LINK : fatal error LNK1104: cannot open file 'dsound.lib' |
| 03:31.13 | Mets | one other error, 1>BSCMAKE: error BK1506 : cannot open file '.\platform_debug\WinMedia.sbr': No such file or directory |
| 03:33.56 | JeffM | does that file exist? |
| 03:34.39 | Mets | which one, winmedia or dsound? |
| 03:34.46 | Mets | dsound.h is in the SDK for directx which I specified |
| 03:35.03 | Mets | for some reason it doesn't want to see it |
| 03:35.20 | JeffM | the file it says it dosn't exist ;) |
| 03:35.31 | JeffM | you sure the path is correct? |
| 03:35.37 | Mets | yes |
| 03:35.53 | *** join/#bzflag Ride- (n=Ride-@24-197-250-9.dhcp.stpt.wi.charter.com) |
| 03:36.21 | JeffM | it dosn't randomly pick files to ignore ;) |
| 03:37.53 | JeffM | you sure the include paths are in include? not lib or bin? |
| 03:39.05 | Mets | yup |
| 03:39.13 | Mets | for platformsdk do I leave it as the default /lib? |
| 03:39.16 | Mets | or do I put win95? |
| 03:39.24 | JeffM | huh? |
| 03:39.37 | JeffM | you put it where the lib files are |
| 03:40.32 | Mets | ok now she works |
| 03:40.34 | Mets | lol |
| 03:40.41 | Mets | I don't know its windows, it builds |
| 03:40.57 | Mets | thanks jeff |
| 03:41.08 | JeffM | what was wrong? |
| 03:41.18 | Mets | I didn't put /lib/x86 |
| 03:41.20 | Mets | for directx |
| 03:41.25 | Mets | just /lib |
| 03:41.27 | JeffM | what about the include? |
| 03:41.33 | Mets | include i left as /lib |
| 03:41.53 | JeffM | that isn't where the file is ;) |
| 03:42.08 | Mets | for which? |
| 03:42.20 | JeffM | the ones it was looking for |
| 03:43.09 | Mets | hmm true dsound.h is in include |
| 03:45.15 | Mets | well i just removed all of the paths and put them all back in |
| 03:45.22 | Mets | and hit build |
| 03:48.03 | Mets | i think i put the paths all in bin the first time, must have been that, but it works |
| 03:50.04 | Mets | keyboard seems a bit weird, doesn't like to turn with w,s,a,d |
| 03:55.09 | Mets | cloacked shot? |
| 03:59.17 | BulletCatcher | CS == invisible out the window, still visible on radar |
| 04:01.12 | Mets | kinda cool |
| 04:01.54 | BulletCatcher | The other new flag is Low Gravity. It lets you jump higher. |
| 04:02.05 | Mets | yup saw that |
| 04:02.09 | Mets | the flag indicator is nice actually |
| 04:02.26 | Mets | I'm assuming that's what the thing in the corner points to |
| 04:02.46 | Mets | i see my relativity flag didn't make it :p |
| 04:03.18 | BulletCatcher | I am still not sure that I like the new team flag indicator, but I'll wait until I use it in a real game. |
| 04:04.33 | Mets | when I was driving with w,a,s,d it seemed like the keys were getting stuck a little, vs the arrow keys or the mouse |
| 04:04.36 | Mets | might just be me though |
| 04:05.15 | BulletCatcher | makes a joke about Mets' sticky keyboard |
| 04:05.17 | JeffM | we can add an option to turn it off if needed |
| 04:05.33 | BulletCatcher | the indicator? |
| 04:05.42 | Mets | lol, no like I would turn left, and then it would get stuck turning left, and pressing d to turn right wouldn't stop it |
| 04:06.08 | BulletCatcher | Oh. I had that happen once using the mouse. |
| 04:06.11 | Mets | i actually changed 2.0.10 to use w,a,s,d, felt more natural |
| 04:06.12 | BulletCatcher | Just once. |
| 04:12.27 | Mets | so no need for libcurl to build the new version? |
| 04:20.05 | JeffM | trunk includes i t |
| 04:22.22 | *** join/#bzflag AlexanderLAW (n=Alexande@83.239.109.173) |
| 04:22.55 | Mets | ah |
| 04:41.03 | Mets | my lag is terrible, guess that's enough kicks for one night :p |
| 04:53.43 | Flash | BulletCatcher: I have no problems |
| 04:54.00 | Flash | unless it just broke |
| 05:04.00 | Flash | mets: ow |
| 05:04.04 | brlcad | i.e. here |
| 05:04.38 | brlcad | and DTRemenak is far more interested and experienced in that area :) |
| 05:04.40 | Mets | yeah i was at 90 lag, then 3500 |
| 05:04.54 | AlexanderLAW | i found it not very easy to locate all strings that i need to localize |
| 05:04.57 | Flash | I don't know if it was the clientquery or what |
| 05:05.18 | Mets | did you get kicked too? |
| 05:05.25 | Flash | no, I killed my client |
| 05:05.28 | brlcad | AlexanderLAW: yeah, to be expected .. some of the strings have never been localized, other changes were added after localization and not added to the files |
| 05:05.32 | Flash | it totally froze |
| 05:05.38 | Mets | yeah mine too |
| 05:05.47 | Flash | ok, I'll try again |
| 05:05.48 | AlexanderLAW | when i tried to use other language translation i found that they are not complete too |
| 05:05.57 | Mets | k |
| 05:06.16 | brlcad | yeah, they're only updated when someone that uses/knows that language provides an update .. |
| 05:06.21 | AlexanderLAW | so it seems my .po is most complete now |
| 05:06.21 | Flash | oh. I think we crashed the server |
| 05:06.52 | Flash | think_tank: do you run the norang test server? |
| 05:06.53 | AlexanderLAW | and i seen that in getLocalString you had debugPrint |
| 05:07.12 | Flash | the one that says "crash me" |
| 05:07.14 | brlcad | it would be nice if there were a good/better way to detect which files are missing localizations, maybe a makefile target or a shell script or a tool that figures out what is missing |
| 05:07.31 | think_tank | no |
| 05:07.46 | AlexanderLAW | ok, i'll think of it then |
| 05:08.02 | Mets | it's the norang server flash, that'd be thumper |
| 05:08.12 | Flash | ok |
| 05:08.20 | Mets | it's up still, just crashed us |
| 05:08.22 | AlexanderLAW | i just wanted to ensure that it would be useful for anyone |
| 05:08.31 | Flash | is it? I didn't see it in the list |
| 05:08.42 | Mets | yeah i'm on it now |
| 05:08.55 | Mets | we might have crashed it...thumper runs his servers in a loop though i believe, so it probably restarted |
| 05:08.57 | Flash | maybe it came back |
| 05:10.21 | Mets | ouch, total zombie |
| 05:13.28 | brlcad | AlexanderLAW: yeah, missing localizations are fair game |
| 05:14.03 | brlcad | some folks speak multiple languages but the po files are still infrequently reviewed.. if something is missing, go ahead and add it |
| 05:14.54 | Mets | flash, not sure what caused that one |
| 05:15.14 | AlexanderLAW | ok |
| 05:15.35 | think_tank | what port crashed? |
| 05:16.10 | Mets | this is 10000 |
| 05:16.20 | Mets | maybe, flash and I are crashing, not sure if the server is |
| 05:16.50 | think_tank | i show it up |
| 05:17.02 | Mets | can you see if it restarted recently? |
| 05:17.12 | think_tank | looking at logs |
| 05:18.12 | Flash | can someone besides Mets play with me at norang? I want to see if it's related to poor connection speed |
| 05:20.42 | Flash | pfft. "kicked for excessive lag. you have been warned 1 times" |
| 05:21.12 | Mets | what was your lag? |
| 05:21.20 | CIA-33 | BZFlag: 03AlexanderLAW * r17305 10/trunk/bzflag/data/l10n/bzflag_ru.po: |
| 05:21.34 | Mets | mine seems high on every server that's up |
| 05:21.52 | think_tank | Mets : 87 +- 253262ms |
| 05:21.53 | think_tank | Flash : 1386 +- 5ms 6% lost/ooo |
| 05:21.57 | Mets | if i use 2.99, if i use 2.0.10 my lag is fine, sub 100 |
| 05:22.38 | blast007 | brlcad / AlexanderLAW: inside Bundle::getLocalString(), there's a debug message that might be of help: std::string debugStr = "Unmapped Locale String: " + stripped + "\n"; |
| 05:22.55 | think_tank | server hasn't rerstarted. you guys just keep getting disconnected |
| 05:23.12 | blast007 | triggered when the debug level is 1 or higher |
| 05:23.37 | AlexanderLAW | blast007: yes, i talked about it |
| 05:23.38 | brlcad | congratulations AlexanderLAW :) |
| 05:23.42 | blast007 | I can't get it to work here, but that might just be issues with Wihdows/stdout |
| 05:23.45 | blast007 | k |
| 05:24.13 | AlexanderLAW | so to find all strings to translate you have to get to all messages in the game |
| 05:24.18 | brlcad | blast007: doesn't windows print to a file iirc? |
| 05:24.28 | blast007 | brlcad: it does, but that didn't come out in the file |
| 05:24.40 | AlexanderLAW | which is not too easy, i suppose |
| 05:24.48 | brlcad | yeah, it's have to hit the translation |
| 05:24.52 | blast007 | and I doubt the leet locate is complete |
| 05:25.11 | brlcad | AlexanderLAW: it wouldn't be too hard -- could create a statedatabase for it |
| 05:25.31 | Mets | uptime on server is 3 minutes... |
| 05:25.32 | brlcad | where all strings are registered in one place, then referred to via a define |
| 05:26.04 | think_tank | no |
| 05:26.06 | brlcad | or typedef, etc .. just some label |
| 05:26.07 | think_tank | 8 hours, 3 mins, 15 secs. |
| 05:26.15 | think_tank | either your "8 hours" was truncated or you missed it |
| 05:26.22 | AlexanderLAW | yes, i think it's right way but then you have to rewrite all the code |
| 05:26.48 | Mets | i think some of my text is getting truncated |
| 05:26.52 | Flash | when I am on by myself, I start with 80ms, then jump to 800ms, then 1100ms before getting kicked |
| 05:26.53 | Mets | like the letter "j" |
| 05:27.09 | Flash | when Mets joined me, I froze up as soon as I shot |
| 05:28.42 | Mets | i tried every server that was up, had similar problems with the lag. I did a client query and that killed both flash and I |
| 05:28.45 | AlexanderLAW | sorry, i have to go now, i can continue discussison later, if you dont mind |
| 05:29.21 | think_tank | Mets, on non-norang servers as well? |
| 05:29.23 | brlcad | you're not chained :) |
| 05:29.30 | Flash | I clientquery'd myself and it worked fine; I don't think there's a "smoking gun" sequence yet |
| 05:29.30 | Mets | think_tank: yes |
| 05:29.31 | brlcad | you may come and go as you please |
| 05:29.40 | brlcad | cheers! |
| 05:29.41 | *** join/#bzflag javawizard2539 (n=javawiza@c-76-23-28-244.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) |
| 05:30.30 | brlcad | AlexanderLAW: and there's still no newline at the end of the file. :-) "\ No newline at end of file" |
| 05:30.40 | AlexanderLAW | it's strange |
| 05:31.09 | AlexanderLAW | maybe a chains would be good for me than |
| 05:31.17 | AlexanderLAW | i'll check it once more |
| 05:31.55 | AlexanderLAW | i see two EOLs (0xd 0xa) at end of file |
| 05:32.04 | AlexanderLAW | in my copy |
| 05:32.54 | AlexanderLAW | i just restored the file from SVN and still see two EOLs |
| 05:33.45 | brlcad | ah, actually I do too |
| 05:33.56 | brlcad | odd that the commit message is bitching about it |
| 05:34.07 | brlcad | probably some bug with utf content |
| 05:34.08 | AlexanderLAW | so we have brand new line? |
| 05:34.16 | brlcad | so don't worry about it :) |
| 05:34.27 | AlexanderLAW | ok |
| 05:35.13 | brlcad | it would be good to add as the first line to the new utf-8 files this: # -*- coding: utf-8 -*- |
| 05:35.21 | BulletCatcher | Flash: I bet my problem in MacDisplay.cxx is due to not having SDL installed. I'll deal with it. (Maybe by installing SDL!) |
| 05:35.34 | brlcad | that will tell some editors like emacs to treat it as utf-8 |
| 05:36.12 | AlexanderLAW | ok, i'll try to do second commit then |
| 05:36.40 | Mets | Flash: does the letter "J" show up for you in game? |
| 05:36.42 | AlexanderLAW | two EOLs and coding in first line - what can be better? |
| 05:36.56 | Flash | I see it in the HUD, but not the console |
| 05:37.18 | Flash | BulletCatcher: yes, SDL is a mac requirement |
| 05:37.36 | BulletCatcher | Mets: lowercase "j"? |
| 05:37.40 | Mets | yeah |
| 05:37.48 | Mets | well just J in general I think |
| 05:38.04 | Flash | I've only noticed 'j', but haven't done an exhaustive check |
| 05:38.15 | BulletCatcher | You're using the 24-point vera mono font. "${}|" are invisible too. |
| 05:38.17 | Flash | also, Mets as soon as you joined lag went down the toilet |
| 05:38.26 | Mets | lowercase j |
| 05:38.29 | Mets | lol |
| 05:38.38 | think_tank | but all the lowercase j's did post to the log |
| 05:38.45 | Flash | BulletCatcher: should we update a font file? |
| 05:38.53 | brlcad | AlexanderLAW: forget about the eol, i hadn't looked at the actual file -- was just looking at the commit message (which is wrong) |
| 05:39.11 | CIA-33 | BZFlag: 03AlexanderLAW * r17306 10/trunk/bzflag/data/l10n/bzflag_ru.po: |
| 05:39.25 | Mets | i'm using whatever the default font is |
| 05:39.46 | AlexanderLAW | oops, i did it again (commit i mean) |
| 05:39.53 | BulletCatcher | Someone should update the font file. Erroneous and I were looking at it a couple of days ago, but we didn't find a good replacement. |
| 05:40.06 | Flash | what's wrong with it? |
| 05:40.38 | AAA_awright | Alrighty, my ACL now compiles with the example. Baby steps :) |
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| 05:41.29 | AAA_awright | Progress was halted with the realization there are no virtual templated member functions |
| 05:41.42 | AlexanderLAW | and btw about fonts - is there any plans to include unicode fonts instead of ansi-only? |
| 05:41.58 | BulletCatcher | I don't know enough about fonts to say *why* it is broken, but when I replaced the file with a newer one it worked. However, the replacment I chose was taller. |
| 05:41.59 | Flash | AAA_awright: you can have them, but they may not do what you think |
| 05:42.04 | brlcad | AlexanderLAW: is there a reason the first character is utf-8? |
| 05:42.28 | AlexanderLAW | it's BOM - that marks file as UTF-8 |
| 05:42.29 | brlcad | ef bb bf |
| 05:42.33 | brlcad | k |
| 05:42.43 | AAA_awright | Flash: template<class T> virtual returnType functionName(T arg, map<T> somethingelse); |
| 05:42.52 | AlexanderLAW | not all editors so clever as emacs |
| 05:42.53 | AAA_awright | It's explicitly prohibited somewhere |
| 05:43.00 | BulletCatcher | The troublesome font file is data/fonts/VeraMonoBold.ttf . |
| 05:43.08 | Mets | BulletCatcher: what is it about lowercase j |
| 05:43.45 | BulletCatcher | I don't know for sure, but I suspect it descends too far. |
| 05:43.46 | AAA_awright | Anyways, good thing too, I like this solution better |
| 05:43.50 | brlcad | AlexanderLAW: yes, there are/were plans if we can find *good* open source fonts that have the upper chars |
| 05:44.16 | AlexanderLAW | and what about DejaVu? |
| 05:44.25 | AlexanderLAW | is it not open source? |
| 05:44.26 | brlcad | else doing some sort of fall-back font scheme like x fonts, using some generic lame-looking font only if the chars aren't available in the defined fonet |
| 05:44.41 | brlcad | yeah, just they looked like crap iirc |
| 05:45.40 | brlcad | might be confusing them with a different font, would have to load it and see how it renders in-game |
| 05:46.00 | brlcad | played with a couple dozen when working on the font manager |
| 05:46.30 | AlexanderLAW | i'am using it with russian translation and found no issues |
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| 05:47.51 | brlcad | AlexanderLAW: i mean what it does to the ascii char set, if they look better/worse than our current font(s) and how to only make it use the font as a fall-back so we can have preference |
| 05:48.18 | brlcad | e.g. their monospace font does suck compared to what we use .. doesn't render well small at all |
| 05:49.08 | brlcad | wanders |
| 05:49.24 | AlexanderLAW | i understood |
| 05:49.29 | Mets | ?/ |
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| 05:57.47 | BulletCatcher | Since it has come up twice I will add a note about the invisible characters to the BUGS file. Unless someone thinks they will have a solution soon. |
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| 06:08.55 | AAA_awright | I wonder if BZFlag is complex enough to use something like this? http://wiki.mozilla.org/Breakpad |
| 06:09.44 | AAA_awright | Just in testing releases, maybe |
| 06:12.35 | Mets | that'd be cool, just have to get a server to do the processing for it as it mentions |
| 06:12.44 | Mets | and don't say the listserv box :p |
| 06:28.56 | CIA-33 | BZFlag: 03bullet_catcher * r17307 10/trunk/bzflag/BUGS: Lowercase "j" and other characters invisible in Vera Mono Bold font. |
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| 06:48.51 | mib_ma9a4h | any Mofo admins here? |
| 06:48.58 | mib_ma9a4h | i am quite sure there is a cheater |
| 06:49.15 | mib_ma9a4h | goes through laser and gm, and i'm no noob |
| 06:49.28 | mib_ma9a4h | not through all the time, but sometimes |
| 06:59.21 | Mets | try #planetmofo |
| 07:22.15 | DTRemenak | AlexanderLAW, brlcad: I've been considering writing a UI for switching fonts. Particularly for far eastern folks who will want a very different font. Thoughts? |
| 07:22.29 | DTRemenak | and congrats AlexanderLAW :) |
| 07:23.36 | Mets | Flash: I put a server up to test the lag problem, check it out |
| 07:24.04 | Flash | ok |
| 07:24.22 | AlexanderLAW | DTRemenak: thanks |
| 07:26.29 | AlexanderLAW | but if to write such UI it must be considered whether availbale fonts support selected locale |
| 07:26.52 | DTRemenak | yeah, I don't know a good way to check that |
| 07:27.20 | DTRemenak | I mean to restrict the UI to only valid fonts |
| 07:27.48 | DTRemenak | I don't know if FTGL gives us information on whether glyphs are available or not, nor how to build a list of required glyphs |
| 07:28.03 | AlexanderLAW | if selected locale requiires non-ANSI chars (it can be determined from .po file) maybe you should exclude ansi-only fonts |
| 07:28.18 | AlexanderLAW | understood |
| 07:28.22 | DTRemenak | even our current fonts are not ansi-only, they're latin-1 |
| 07:29.10 | DTRemenak | so they have characters like à in them, that make them OK for German and French, but not Russian |
| 07:29.25 | DTRemenak | or Chinese, or Hindi |
| 07:29.29 | AlexanderLAW | well but after UTF-8 patch we applied to FTGL, i think its impossible to use non-ASCII chars |
| 07:29.57 | DTRemenak | no, we pass them as UTF-8, and Freetype decodes correctly |
| 07:30.27 | DTRemenak | Freetype always expects Unicode, so the UTF-8 patch makes them work corrrectly |
| 07:30.30 | AlexanderLAW | yes, when you pass it as UTF-8, it's right |
| 07:30.54 | DTRemenak | and bzflag's input system changes mean you can now type those characters, so that end is good too |
| 07:31.21 | DTRemenak | we can use every character in our current font files, and a lot that aren't |
| 07:31.26 | DTRemenak | which is the issue :) |
| 07:31.46 | AlexanderLAW | then we need some way to determine what glyphs are included in a font |
| 07:31.55 | DTRemenak | even, say, switching to Deja Vu, would fix Greek and Cyrillic, but not Chinese and Japanese |
| 07:32.07 | AlexanderLAW | i understand it |
| 07:32.09 | DTRemenak | there are other fonts needed for CJK |
| 07:32.27 | DTRemenak | so the user must have some way to select an appropriate font, or the software must do it for them, or some combination |
| 07:32.28 | AlexanderLAW | and Chinese fonts are much bigger |
| 07:32.42 | DTRemenak | yes, Chinese fonts when used for latin characters tend to be very ugly |
| 07:32.43 | AlexanderLAW | they can double size of distributive |
| 07:33.42 | DTRemenak | I wonder how difficult it would be to build a list of glyphs used in a particular Bundle to check against the fonts |
| 07:34.03 | DTRemenak | and how expensive it would be to do so |
| 07:34.33 | AlexanderLAW | and i thought - one more issue arises |
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| 07:35.20 | AlexanderLAW | if you implement chat suppot,, than analyzing of .po is not enough to determine what chars are needed |
| 07:35.37 | DTRemenak | mm, true |
| 07:36.16 | AlexanderLAW | so it seems we have to use some i18n support provided by OS |
| 07:36.52 | DTRemenak | the OS' way of rendering fonts is generally incompatible with ours |
| 07:37.15 | DTRemenak | probably would have to write some kind of fallback system ourselves |
| 07:37.42 | AlexanderLAW | maybe we need not rendering, but just locale analyzing |
| 07:38.05 | purple_cow | I think every OS out there has some facility for rendering glyphs onto an offscreen drawable :P |
| 07:38.07 | DTRemenak | well, what if someone from a different locale is chatting with you? |
| 07:38.15 | AlexanderLAW | to find what range of glyphs needed for selected locale |
| 07:38.16 | Flash | what would the harm be of selecting a non-localized font? |
| 07:38.27 | DTRemenak | Flash: some characters will show up as blanks |
| 07:38.28 | Flash | you'd know pretty soon that wasn't a good font to use |
| 07:38.44 | Mets | that was surprising |
| 07:39.14 | DTRemenak | I think the best course would be to try to render in the chosen font, then try others of the same family if it doesn't have the glyph |
| 07:39.50 | AlexanderLAW | yes it would be impossible to chat with people in chinese without habing their fonts installed, but i have to understand it when i select font |
| 07:40.36 | Flash | but is it something that needs to be handled automatically, or can we rely on the human to choose a font that renders in the chosen locale |
| 07:40.42 | DTRemenak | not just that...there may be no font available that has both cyrillic and chinese characters. what would you do then? pick one or the other, I suppose...but it would be better if we could render them simultaneously |
| 07:41.36 | AlexanderLAW | i think we should provide correct font for local selected locale |
| 07:42.04 | Flash | that is reasonable, but we can determine the mapping of font to locale when we build |
| 07:42.24 | Flash | the .po could specify the preferred font |
| 07:42.35 | DTRemenak | that is definitely one possibility |
| 07:42.36 | AlexanderLAW | i think support of cross-locale chat is not needed indeed |
| 07:42.43 | DTRemenak | and would be really easy to implement |
| 07:42.51 | DTRemenak | Flash gets bonus points for that :) |
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| 07:43.05 | Flash | is lazy (contrary to popular belief) |
| 07:43.08 | AlexanderLAW | yes, it's easy way |
| 07:43.28 | AlexanderLAW | but then we should provide all fonts with distributive |
| 07:43.54 | DTRemenak | provide strings like _defaultConsoleFont/_defaultSerifFont/_defaultSansFont, then just do bundle lookups on startup to set the defaults |
| 07:44.16 | Flash | a user is always free to install additional fonts (I'm running with a non standard font now, just to check it out) |
| 07:44.17 | AlexanderLAW | we couldnt use OS fonts, but if i understand right - there are some plats to do it |
| 07:44.17 | DTRemenak | yeah, we'll need to include at least one font that supports all characters for a given locale |
| 07:44.32 | Flash | but the "verified" set of fonds should definitely be distributed |
| 07:44.53 | DTRemenak | I think we can, it's just some work to tie into freetype. And it is not consistent cross-platform (obviously) |
| 07:45.03 | Flash | really? |
| 07:45.16 | Flash | I'm running with a windows TTF that I downloaded (on my Mac) |
| 07:45.25 | DTRemenak | the naming is not consistent |
| 07:45.26 | AlexanderLAW | but maybe we can use some metatadata from font files? |
| 07:45.46 | DTRemenak | so e.g. if my locale says Arial, you will not be able to use it on a Linux box (without installing Arial manually) |
| 07:45.48 | AlexanderLAW | depending on file name works only if we provide all fonts |
| 07:46.00 | Flash | oh... you are talking about OS fonts |
| 07:46.04 | DTRemenak | yeah |
| 07:46.14 | Flash | I thought it was a given that we would distribute fonts |
| 07:46.15 | DTRemenak | if we ship them, it's easy |
| 07:46.24 | DTRemenak | I think it is pretty much necessary, yes |
| 07:46.34 | Flash | another problem solved ;-) |
| 07:46.35 | DTRemenak | it would be nice to have the option of choosing OS fonts also |
| 07:46.48 | DTRemenak | which might be something else I tie in if I do a font UI |
| 07:47.02 | Flash | that UI might necessarily be platform-specific |
| 07:47.23 | AlexanderLAW | but chinese fonts have several Mbytes in size |
| 07:47.31 | DTRemenak | naw, it's just a list of TTF files. the location it pulled from would be platform-specific, sure |
| 07:48.49 | DTRemenak | i.e. $(WINDIR)\Fonts on windows, $PREFIX/lib/X11/fonts/TrueType (and others) on X systems, etc |
| 07:50.02 | DTRemenak | yes, we would probably only distribute one far-eastern font. but we have no far-eastern locales yet, so it doesn't really matter at the moment...just trying to think ahead ;) |
| 07:50.12 | AlexanderLAW | i think we should rely on $WINDIR\Fonts - Windows allows to install fonts without moving it to the folder |
| 07:50.27 | AlexanderLAW | we shouldnt. i mean |
| 07:51.05 | AlexanderLAW | so it would be more correct to use it's API to find font files |
| 07:51.07 | DTRemenak | yeah, but the API magic necessary to find the actual font files in other locations is very painful |
| 07:51.25 | DTRemenak | finding fonts is easy, finding TTF files is not so much |
| 07:51.47 | AlexanderLAW | ok |
| 07:51.56 | DTRemenak | schedules it as a future enhancement if someone wants to do it :) |
| 07:53.27 | DTRemenak | at any rate, how does this sound as a first step: a way to specify the default font for a given locale in the .po file, a way to select fonts from the UI, and a way to reset the fonts to the default for the current locale from the UI? |
| 07:54.54 | AlexanderLAW | as for me - specifying font in the .po file is most simple and it solves main problem |
| 07:54.59 | DTRemenak | and as AlexanderLAW pointed out with his patch today, we also need a consistent way to localize button-labels in the keybinding system (separate project) |
| 07:55.42 | DTRemenak | and a way to localize server messages consistently |
| 07:55.45 | AlexanderLAW | i dont't think users will bother with selecting another fonts if they get selected working right |
| 07:55.52 | DTRemenak | yeah, probably true |
| 07:55.56 | DTRemenak | but some people are picky ;) |
| 07:56.16 | AlexanderLAW | and if they want to change font they just can use config, as i do now |
| 07:56.45 | AlexanderLAW | so config parameters just have to override those specified in .po |
| 07:56.53 | DTRemenak | yeah, sounds good to me |
| 07:57.23 | DTRemenak | ok, so maybe that's the first step, UI comes later :) |
| 07:58.22 | Flash | hmmmm |
| 07:58.44 | Flash | if I change locales, I would want my font to change (if required) |
| 07:58.56 | Flash | even if I already had a "default" font specified |
| 07:59.10 | Flash | maybe an "override locale font" setting? |
| 07:59.29 | DTRemenak | that's why I was thinking of a "reset fonts to locale default" option |
| 07:59.30 | Flash | or put english in a locale and everything is consistent |
| 08:00.05 | Flash | then if I want to change the font for a locale I edit the .po (???) |
| 08:00.37 | DTRemenak | my thought on that is: if you have not configured it, we should switch when you switch locales. if you have set it, we should provide a way for you to switch easily. |
| 08:00.53 | DTRemenak | thus the UI idea |
| 08:00.57 | Mets | Flash: debug on, new computer, new map with textures |
| 08:01.14 | Flash | ok... will it be obvious what server? |
| 08:01.21 | Mets | yes |
| 08:01.34 | Mets | anybody else want to give 2.99 a run welcome |
| 08:06.23 | AlexanderLAW | Flash: i do not completely understand what you mean - change locales and when it's needed? |
| 08:06.41 | AlexanderLAW | do you talk about picky users? |
| 08:07.14 | AlexanderLAW | that want to have some custom font and then forget about it and want to use other locale |
| 08:07.55 | AlexanderLAW | and still getting in UI their custom font |
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| 08:15.26 | Flash | AlexanderLAW: if I am in English, I don't need a font with extended characters. But if I switch to the Russian locale, I'd like a cyrillic font |
| 08:15.52 | Flash | (am I here? I lost power) |
| 08:15.56 | AlexanderLAW | yes, and that font will be specified in russian.po |
| 08:16.12 | Mets | that lag bug is nuts |
| 08:16.25 | Flash | so if ALL font specification is moved to the .po files, it is consistent |
| 08:16.39 | Flash | right now, though, I can specify a console font in the config file |
| 08:16.46 | AlexanderLAW | yes |
| 08:16.52 | Flash | should that apply to all locales? |
| 08:17.00 | Flash | probably doesn't make sense |
| 08:18.46 | AlexanderLAW | well, then maybe just to add locale prefix to font parameter in the config? |
| 08:21.09 | Mets | Flash: think worldChunksPerUpdate or updateThrotleRate have anything to do with it? |
| 08:22.08 | AlexanderLAW | something like set consoleFont_ru DejaVuSansMono-Bold, i mean |
| 08:32.14 | brlcad | sees he misses all the fun |
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| 08:41.19 | Flash | it depends on if we want to make ALL changes in the config file |
| 08:41.40 | Flash | then a locale should provide a default font, then it could be overridden in the config as you suggest |
| 08:42.10 | Flash | Mets: I don't know anything about it, but I remember hearing something about throttling updtes |
| 08:42.41 | Flash | but I'm going away because I need to sleep so I can pack in the morning and get on a plane |
| 08:43.05 | AlexanderLAW | have a nice trip |
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| 08:47.15 | Mets | yup, have a safe trip Flash |
| 08:47.40 | Mets | default is 30, all of the servers up right now are on 30 I believe |
| 08:47.54 | Mets | but most of them you won't last more than a few minutes before you get a lag spike that will get you kiccked |
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| 13:07.37 | whodaman- | trying to compile from trunk.. http://pastebin.bzflag.bz/m62826546 when I ran ./autogen.sh |
| 14:09.06 | Flash | that looks like configure, not autogen |
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| 14:18.48 | whodaman- | Flash, err, I ran ./autogen.sh ... |
| 14:19.15 | Flash | ok |
| 14:19.28 | Flash | I'm barely competent in that part of the build process |
| 14:21.18 | Flash | but I thought configure generated the makefiles |
| 14:21.32 | Flash | so it doesn't make sense that autogen.sh would complain that they are missing |
| 14:21.48 | Flash | try this: |
| 14:22.15 | Flash | svn revert -R . (makes sure you don't have any local mods, so don't do it if you want to keep them) |
| 14:22.22 | Flash | make -k maintainer-clean |
| 14:22.29 | Flash | ./autogen.sh |
| 14:22.50 | whodaman- | Flash, thanks, I'll try that |
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| 15:51.30 | BulletCatcher | Mets: Add "-set _updateThrottleRate 300" to the options section of your server's map and restart. |
| 15:51.31 | BulletCatcher | If that improves the lag problem then we may be on our way to a solution. |
| 15:58.57 | spldart | Hello bugQ |
| 15:59.08 | bugQ | hello... |
| 15:59.33 | bugQ | sorry, should have been on yesterday. lots of things happening... |
| 15:59.35 | spldart | Have you done any more thinking/planning since we last talked or has school/work kept you real busy :) |
| 15:59.52 | bugQ | I am always thinking. |
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| 15:59.55 | spldart | I thought it was kinda silly to start it on monday myself. t |
| 16:00.04 | spldart | Things should pick up a bit later |
| 16:00.39 | JeffM | actualy for the US students that gave them a nice day to do lots of thigns, since they should have it off from school/work etc.. |
| 16:00.41 | spldart | But we do need you and the other students to be around every day practical |
| 16:00.43 | JeffM | great day to start it on |
| 16:00.49 | spldart | hehe |
| 16:01.02 | whodaman | hah |
| 16:01.20 | JeffM | so who is here and workin? |
| 16:01.27 | bugQ | other than me? |
| 16:01.35 | JeffM | there's one :) |
| 16:01.36 | spldart | Wait! Work? |
| 16:01.42 | Mets | BulletCatcher: what makes you think that? |
| 16:01.42 | JeffM | work! |
| 16:01.51 | spldart | Nobody said anything about work 8-0 |
| 16:01.52 | JeffM | spldart, that's what they get paid for |
| 16:01.54 | spldart | :-P |
| 16:02.01 | spldart | j/k |
| 16:02.20 | JeffM | bugQ, I implemented a basic template system for HTTPD plugins last week |
| 16:02.27 | bugQ | oo. |
| 16:02.45 | Mets | do you want a full restart or just a variable change |
| 16:03.00 | JeffM | it dosn't let you do much complex logic in the templates but should be enough to allow for the HTML generation to be made external |
| 16:03.09 | JeffM | I've updated webreport and webstats to use it' |
| 16:03.25 | bugQ | nice, nice |
| 16:03.58 | bugQ | I will play around with it, then |
| 16:04.09 | JeffM | so what is your plan for work this week? |
| 16:04.26 | bugQ | get my tools ready. |
| 16:04.42 | JeffM | techincaly you should have been doing that over the last month |
| 16:04.43 | JeffM | what else? |
| 16:04.53 | JeffM | this is a sample template, http://pastebin.bzflag.bz/m5da63814 |
| 16:04.54 | bugQ | yes, I know, sorry |
| 16:05.05 | JeffM | but still tools take like a hour |
| 16:05.06 | JeffM | what else? |
| 16:06.40 | Mets | BulletCatcher: throttle at 300, just restarted |
| 16:06.54 | Mets | last night Flash couldn't auth for some reason, but I could, so not sure what the deal with that is |
| 16:07.18 | bugQ | hmm, make little prototypes to see what can and can't be changed via the bzfs api, I guess |
| 16:07.27 | spldart | umm |
| 16:07.32 | JeffM | bugQ, you guess? |
| 16:07.46 | spldart | A firm plan will be necessary. Schedules you will try to adhere to etc. |
| 16:07.52 | JeffM | bugQ, indedd |
| 16:08.07 | JeffM | have you reviewed your spec with everyone? |
| 16:08.07 | spldart | Required of all students |
| 16:08.17 | JeffM | yes, you need to treat this like a job |
| 16:08.20 | spldart | Tiz a JOB. That you can have fun at |
| 16:08.25 | whodaman | lol |
| 16:08.31 | bugQ | right then. |
| 16:09.00 | JeffM | step 1, where you gonna do your work? |
| 16:09.20 | JeffM | are you going to be a plugin or an app? |
| 16:09.39 | bugQ | plugin. |
| 16:09.48 | JeffM | k |
| 16:09.56 | bugQ | who is everyone? how many people do I report to? |
| 16:10.05 | JeffM | bugQ, all of the mentors techincaly |
| 16:10.14 | JeffM | your specific mentor sepcialy |
| 16:10.20 | spldart | as do all the students more or less |
| 16:10.21 | JeffM | we are going to do this as a group to make it easier on you |
| 16:10.33 | JeffM | so it'll be VERY public |
| 16:10.35 | JeffM | ok so plugin |
| 16:10.37 | bugQ | right then. |
| 16:10.45 | JeffM | then it sounds like you can be in trunk |
| 16:10.52 | JeffM | what name was chosen? |
| 16:11.20 | bugQ | for the project? nothing other than BZWeb came up. |
| 16:11.30 | JeffM | yeah that's kinda meh |
| 16:11.32 | bugQ | er, BZFWeb. |
| 16:11.33 | JeffM | let see |
| 16:11.37 | donny_baker | JeffM: fyi XPx64 drivers are hard to come by |
| 16:11.47 | JeffM | donny_baker, I don't have that much hardware |
| 16:11.58 | JeffM | and I'm running 64 here at work |
| 16:12.02 | JeffM | but yeah that's a concern |
| 16:12.08 | donny_baker | ah, ok.. just so you know |
| 16:12.13 | JeffM | thanks :) |
| 16:12.23 | JeffM | bugQ, ok well lets think, what all will it do? |
| 16:12.30 | JeffM | it will let you admin a server |
| 16:12.37 | JeffM | over the web |
| 16:12.42 | bugQ | change params at runtime... |
| 16:12.43 | JeffM | anything else? |
| 16:12.56 | bugQ | don't think so. |
| 16:13.06 | JeffM | then webadmin works |
| 16:13.18 | JeffM | it dosn't need bz cus it's a plugin and will be shiped with bzflag :) |
| 16:13.27 | bugQ | right then. |
| 16:13.53 | JeffM | so best to start by getting your tools setup and then add a plugin dir for it |
| 16:14.08 | JeffM | you can make a copy of the SAMPLE_PLUGIN and rename all the files |
| 16:14.13 | JeffM | IIRC there is even a script |
| 16:14.38 | JeffM | that will be a good spot |
| 16:14.55 | JeffM | then I say we all go over your spec and see what we come up with :) |
| 16:15.45 | bugQ | k. |
| 16:16.50 | BulletCatcher | Mets: It was worth a try, but I got a lag spike shortly after I picked up a High Speed flag. |
| 16:17.34 | Mets | is a throttle of 300 more load to the server or less? |
| 16:18.09 | BulletCatcher | Against a localhost server, where I never see lag problems, setting _updateThrottleRate to either 3 or 3000 made no discernable difference. |
| 16:18.26 | Mets | yeah i tried everything from 1 to 1000 |
| 16:18.33 | BulletCatcher | The throttle is in packets per second. |
| 16:18.38 | JeffM | donny_baker, did you just make a redirect? |
| 16:19.00 | Mets | I tried WorldChunksPerUpdate at different values too in that range, no difference |
| 16:19.07 | BulletCatcher | k |
| 16:19.27 | BulletCatcher | In other words, we still have no idea what might cause the lag problem. :-( |
| 16:19.27 | JeffM | Mets, BulletCatcher what are you 2 trying to do? |
| 16:19.38 | Mets | JeffM: reduce lag |
| 16:19.46 | JeffM | are you sure it's real lag? or just reported lag |
| 16:20.38 | Mets | it's real, people are going nr so not just a reporting problem |
| 16:20.45 | think_tank | and the server is lag kicking them... |
| 16:21.02 | JeffM | that still may not be REAL lag but simply the lag reporting system |
| 16:21.04 | BulletCatcher | The server *thinks* it is real, but my guess is that it is not. |
| 16:21.07 | Mets | I thought maybe it was because the servers were slower and there was too much to process, given that they are running 2.0.10 maps |
| 16:21.11 | JeffM | BulletCatcher, exactly |
| 16:21.28 | JeffM | how far off is the time clock syncs with the msgWhatTimeIsIt? |
| 16:21.30 | donny_baker | JeffM: redirect? |
| 16:21.40 | JeffM | donny_baker, nm |
| 16:21.45 | donny_baker | k |
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| 16:21.56 | Mets | how can it be a reporting problem if we aren't responding to each other |
| 16:22.02 | JeffM | BulletCatcher, my guess is that the ping count is geting incremneted too much so it thinks there are outstanding pings. |
| 16:22.18 | JeffM | Mets, because the NR thing is based on the ping reporter too ;) |
| 16:22.24 | JeffM | it's all hinged on the ping packets |
| 16:22.27 | BulletCatcher | makes a note of that |
| 16:22.28 | JeffM | make sure they are working |
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| 16:48.04 | Wyk3d | @"who is here and workin?" .. /me is .. working somewhat but mostly studying for exams |
| 16:49.27 | spldart | Exams aren't over :-( |
| 16:49.52 | Wyk3d | made lots of progress with testing basic ldap operations this week .. found an ldap server that actually works on windows, an admin tool to check if everything's alright and wrote code to bind/add/modify/search/delete which seem to work ok by now |
| 16:50.36 | Mets | JeffM: I think you're right about it being reporting |
| 16:50.50 | Wyk3d | spldart: yeah they're just starting actually :( |
| 16:51.05 | spldart | Teh suxors :( |
| 16:51.08 | Mets | I just ran pings on bzexcess while playing, and when I "lag spiked" the pings didn't change at all |
| 16:51.09 | Thumper_ | JeffM: got my shirts and hoodie today - thanks! |
| 16:51.26 | Mets | same with norang |
| 16:57.00 | BulletCatcher | Thanks for doing that, Mets. It eliminates another possibility. |
| 16:57.22 | JeffM | Thumper_, whoot |
| 16:57.30 | JeffM | they come out ok? |
| 16:57.37 | JeffM | you got the red one didn't you? |
| 16:57.38 | Thumper_ | yup they're fine. |
| 16:57.46 | Thumper_ | is wearing the cardinal red one and the hoodie right now |
| 16:57.52 | whodaman | :D |
| 16:57.53 | JeffM | that one looks realy good |
| 16:57.57 | Thumper_ | likes |
| 16:58.03 | Erroneous | yeah, the red one looked great |
| 16:58.18 | JeffM | just spent 710$ |
| 16:58.33 | Mets | BulletCatcher: np, now that I've ping bombarded everybody :p |
| 16:58.40 | BulletCatcher | :-) |
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| 17:12.35 | Erroneous | ~spldart++ |
| 17:13.04 | spldart | :-) thankies |
| 17:17.50 | JeffM | Mets, yeah in my testing with the lag comp packet, I didn't see any increase in real lag, but the reporting went up. |
| 17:19.53 | Erroneous | thinks that if that bug gets fixed we'd be almost-releasable |
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| 17:20.21 | Erroneous | or it'd be at least binary build time |
| 17:20.45 | JeffM | yeah if the lag reporting stuff and the DR thigns are worked out we can go and start mass testing. |
| 17:20.49 | Erroneous | checks in some more features before someone decides to go freeze things |
| 17:21.04 | JeffM | bots are a bit thing |
| 17:21.07 | Erroneous | is on an l10n binge |
| 17:21.09 | JeffM | but at least we have an "out" for that |
| 17:21.14 | Erroneous | yeah |
| 17:21.22 | Erroneous | and record/replay working is kinda important |
| 17:21.33 | JeffM | I am in the middle of doing ref counted NetHandlers |
| 17:21.36 | Erroneous | but I'm pretty sure that's just a matter of fixing it, not a major deal |
| 17:21.43 | JeffM | but I ended up watching lost of lost last night |
| 17:21.50 | Erroneous | lost of lost? :) |
| 17:21.56 | JeffM | lots of lost |
| 17:24.59 | JeffM | tho looks like tomorow I'll be re-installing everything :( |
| 17:28.24 | JeffM | Erroneous, does bz build ok under vista? |
| 17:28.56 | Erroneous | hell if I know |
| 17:29.03 | Erroneous | can't see why it wouldn't |
| 17:29.05 | JeffM | figured you'd have tried it :) |
| 17:29.13 | Erroneous | avoids vista whenever possible |
| 17:29.21 | JeffM | maybe directX SDK issues |
| 17:29.22 | JeffM | ? |
| 17:29.46 | Erroneous | not if you're using the compiler's sdk |
| 17:29.51 | Erroneous | if you use vista's sdk sure |
| 17:29.58 | Erroneous | don't do that ;) |
| 17:30.15 | JeffM | well maybe it'll be time for me to do a DX8 build target :) |
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| 17:48.24 | JeffM | bugQ, how goes your build setup? |
| 17:48.58 | blast007 | JeffM: as far as I can tell, the "Not Responding" status is tied to revieving player updates, not based on latency |
| 17:49.12 | blast007 | it's determined inside Player::doDeadReckoning() |
| 17:49.22 | JeffM | ahh |
| 17:49.28 | JeffM | well then that part did change |
| 17:49.29 | bugQ | heh, I checked out a bit more than I thought I was, branches and all |
| 17:49.31 | blast007 | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:49.34 | JeffM | so maybe lag comp broke it |
| 17:49.45 | JeffM | or maybe it's using the wrong DT |
| 17:49.54 | blast007 | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:49.56 | JeffM | bugQ, heh |
| 17:49.57 | Erroneous | tied to player updates? |
| 17:50.08 | Erroneous | does it work if you disable throttling? |
| 17:50.09 | JeffM | it should be tied to any message I'd think |
| 17:51.22 | blast007 | "any message" ? |
| 17:51.45 | blast007 | the not responding status is calculated on the client |
| 17:52.07 | blast007 | so they wouldn't know if other packets should be coming through. the only they know should be coming is player updates, right? |
| 17:52.42 | JeffM | maybe we should compute it on the server |
| 17:52.47 | JeffM | based on all network traffic |
| 17:52.54 | JeffM | then send out an NR status |
| 17:52.59 | JeffM | that'd be more consistent |
| 17:53.05 | blast007 | I guess |
| 17:53.16 | blast007 | but then the player that *is* NR won't know |
| 17:53.30 | JeffM | well they won't know anything, cus they are NR :) |
| 17:53.47 | blast007 | currently they see everyone else go NR |
| 17:53.50 | JeffM | then on the client do a single "I am NR" check based on input from the server |
| 17:53.55 | blast007 | k |
| 17:53.58 | JeffM | then show that as a gross discconect |
| 17:54.04 | Erroneous | hugs incredibuild |
| 17:54.06 | JeffM | then you'd know that YOU have the issue |
| 17:54.09 | JeffM | not everyone else |
| 17:54.15 | JeffM | I like that method better |
| 17:54.19 | Erroneous | I had no idea we changed so much stuff this weekend :| |
| 17:54.22 | JeffM | then we clearly seperate the 2 issues |
| 17:55.06 | JeffM | if we do logic like that, we can apply it to any user, not just tank players, but observers too |
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| 18:18.00 | JeffM | brlcad, you get your stuff yet? |
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| 18:38.34 | bugQ | sorry, still working things out, back soon |
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| 19:21.35 | brlcad | JeffM: yup! |
| 19:21.45 | brlcad | i haven't seen it yet, though, but they told me it arrived |
| 19:25.36 | Winny | steals whatever it is brlcad recieved |
| 19:28.27 | Lukstr | steals Winny |
| 19:28.38 | Winny | steals Lukstr |
| 19:29.03 | Lukstr | :O |
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| 19:57.14 | CIA-33 | BZFlag: 03catay * r17308 10/trunk/bzflag/plugins/plugin_utils/plugin_HTTPTemplates.cpp: Add missing newline at EOF. |
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| 20:35.08 | JeffM | thanks catay |
| 20:35.11 | spldart | Man... It's shaping up to be one of THOSE kind of days over here :-( |
| 20:38.29 | brad | ~catay++ |
| 20:38.35 | brad | lol |
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| 21:00.53 | JeffM | Wyk3d, why do you want to use serverlink for auth? what does the game protcoll have to do with authentication? |
| 21:01.45 | Wyk3d | nothing, that's why i want to split out the part of it that deals with establishing a connection and communicating |
| 21:01.56 | Ride- | is away: probably out snowboarding |
| 21:02.02 | JeffM | so you just wanted to use NetHandler as a socket wraper? |
| 21:02.16 | Wyk3d | yes, that was the plan |
| 21:02.18 | Ride- | is back (gone 00:00:03) |
| 21:02.29 | JeffM | ok, well it's not ready for that, and we have some other devs work on that |
| 21:02.52 | JeffM | I think it's best for you to just use another socket wraper for now, like SDL_NET and we can just replace it with NetHandler later |
| 21:02.55 | Wyk3d | i know it's not, that's why i proposed to make it ready in the beginning |
| 21:03.06 | JeffM | that way you don't have to deal with socket crap |
| 21:03.13 | JeffM | and can get right into the auth part :) |
| 21:03.20 | JeffM | you just want TCP? |
| 21:03.34 | Wyk3d | tcp only yes, i don't see any reason to use udp |
| 21:03.45 | JeffM | then I can give you a 2 file TCP wraper |
| 21:04.01 | JeffM | you can use that for now, and we can have Flash or someone merge in NetHandler later when it's done |
| 21:04.15 | JeffM | I just don't want to see you spin your wheels on stuff that others can do :) |
| 21:04.28 | Wyk3d | ok, sounds good :) |
| 21:04.36 | JeffM | the auth part is going to be tricky enough |
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| 21:05.58 | JeffM | grab /src/net.cpp and /include/net.h from here http://libirc.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/libirc/trunk/libirc/ |
| 21:06.09 | JeffM | it's a repack of the SDL_Net TCP stuff |
| 21:06.19 | JeffM | so that it can be made stand alone |
| 21:06.24 | JeffM | I used it for libIRC |
| 21:06.34 | JeffM | it's butt simple :) |
| 21:07.06 | JeffM | there is also the TCPConnection.cpp and h if you are intereted in a more OO interface to it |
| 21:07.22 | JeffM | then we could jsut replace the backend of that with netHandler later and your code dosnt' change. |
| 21:07.47 | JeffM | that may be the best way to go, then you have an abstraction layer |
| 21:08.43 | JeffM | Constitution, how you doing? what is your plan for this week? |
| 21:08.55 | JeffM | charges up the cattle prod. |
| 21:09.44 | whodaman | ~bzflist |
| 21:09.47 | whodaman | global down? |
| 21:09.57 | JeffM | nope |
| 21:10.36 | JeffM | TimRiker, can you send an ibot or next of kin to #bzchat? |
| 21:11.20 | Erroneous | man, I keep switching to russian input accidentally...it's so wierd to suddenly have ÐÑÑÑдÐÑÑеÐÑÑÑ-ЮпÑеÐЬÐÑÑÑ() in the middle of a block of code :S |
| 21:11.28 | JeffM | heh |
| 21:11.38 | JeffM | you still have that keyboard hooked up? |
| 21:11.41 | Erroneous | nope |
| 21:11.53 | Erroneous | so I don't know what symbols I'll be getting ;) |
| 21:11.58 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o JeffM2501] by ChanServ |
| 21:13.17 | donny_baker | ~lart Erroneous |
| 21:13.17 | ibot | pushes the wall down onto Erroneous whilst whistling innocently |
| 21:13.24 | Mets | lol |
| 21:13.53 | donny_baker | hit ctrl-alt-del on a remote system at the same time you pasted that.. thought I did it and missed getting into the bios :P |
| 21:14.00 | Erroneous | heh |
| 21:14.37 | Erroneous | switching to spanish accidentally is not quite so bad, just the punctuation moves around and a few stray ñ's drop in |
| 21:14.46 | donny_baker | :) |
| 21:14.57 | Constitution | JeffM: I've diffed the two trees and am going over changes to the shot branch. Then I'm taking a 3-month trip to Hawaii. |
| 21:15.10 | JeffM2501 | fails Constitution |
| 21:15.13 | Erroneous | woohoo, hawaii code FTW |
| 21:15.30 | JeffM2501 | where at? |
| 21:15.48 | Constitution | Maui, I think |
| 21:15.55 | Constitution | ;) |
| 21:16.01 | JeffM2501 | coding on the beach then? |
| 21:16.14 | Winny | hehe |
| 21:16.24 | JeffM2501 | what do you expect your schedule to be like? |
| 21:16.48 | brlcad | yikes |
| 21:17.03 | Constitution | my other job in the mornings, coding in the late afternoons/evenings |
| 21:17.10 | JeffM2501 | k |
| 21:17.35 | Erroneous | what timezone is that? -10? |
| 21:17.43 | Constitution | -7 |
| 21:17.56 | Constitution | er, yeah, no Hawaii actually ;) |
| 21:18.06 | Erroneous | aww shucks |
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| 21:18.24 | JeffM2501 | well if you want to go over the changes let me know |
| 21:18.31 | JeffM2501 | I don't mind running down a summary with you |
| 21:18.36 | Erroneous | 'cause really, summer of code in hawaii would make for like Best Summer Ever :) |
| 21:18.56 | JeffM2501 | the general overview of my changes are fairly basic, just VERY invasive |
| 21:19.01 | JeffM2501 | thats why so much changed |
| 21:19.06 | Constitution | okay... it would help if I could get the diff under 6MB |
| 21:19.10 | Erroneous | heh |
| 21:19.12 | Constitution | you must've been very busy ;) |
| 21:19.18 | JeffM2501 | it was a pain in the butt |
| 21:19.19 | Erroneous | did you re-diff this weekend? |
| 21:19.30 | JeffM2501 | yeah Erroneous updated with trunk |
| 21:19.33 | Erroneous | should have gotten much smaller on saturday, I merged trunk back into it |
| 21:19.35 | JeffM2501 | Basicly I did 2 things. |
| 21:19.35 | Constitution | I'm trying to diff the revision right before you merged |
| 21:19.47 | Constitution | or otherwise figure out how to get just Jeff's changes |
| 21:19.49 | Erroneous | do after, all the trunk changes will go away |
| 21:19.59 | Erroneous | do the revision I merged, with the revision I merged into |
| 21:19.59 | JeffM2501 | 1) removed all the per player shots lists and added a Global ShotList class on the client |
| 21:20.03 | Erroneous | then you'll get just Jeff's changes |
| 21:20.11 | Constitution | oh, ok |
| 21:20.26 | Erroneous | plus a few of mine that, uh, slipped in |
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| 21:20.27 | Erroneous | oops |
| 21:20.39 | JeffM2501 | and 2) Added a ShotManager on the server that gives out globaly unique IDs to shots and has hooks to track them |
| 21:20.43 | Erroneous | so ignore the stuff in platform ;) |
| 21:21.02 | JeffM2501 | as part of all that, I had to redo death, kills, reloads, and world weapons |
| 21:21.16 | donny_baker | had a person at work who i have no real contact with come up to me on friday and ask me if i knew about "some tank game" on the internet one of his clients in Fort Wayne was telling him about :P |
| 21:21.40 | JeffM2501 | the advantages are, that shots are no longer linked to players and are tracked by themselves. |
| 21:21.49 | Erroneous | donny_baker: so you pulled out the t-shirt? :) |
| 21:21.54 | *** join/#bzflag think_tank (n=think_ta@unaffiliated/thinktank/x-168245) |
| 21:22.12 | JeffM2501 | donny_baker, did you get your shirt yet? |
| 21:22.13 | donny_baker | no, the polo taht arrived that same day :) |
| 21:22.17 | JeffM2501 | cool |
| 21:22.19 | JeffM2501 | it look ok? |
| 21:22.21 | donny_baker | wearing it right now |
| 21:22.31 | donny_baker | looks great, wears great |
| 21:22.34 | JeffM2501 | and fit ok? |
| 21:22.47 | donny_baker | yes, fits just right |
| 21:22.51 | JeffM2501 | came out very pro |
| 21:23.08 | JeffM2501 | I'm pondering just doing that lgo on the next set of hats |
| 21:23.15 | Winny | what do you call it when a computer generates a random patten of something? Proceduaral? |
| 21:23.26 | JeffM2501 | Winny, noise |
| 21:23.26 | Erroneous | procedural is not necessarily random |
| 21:23.55 | JeffM2501 | having the computer generate content based on some logic is procedural content |
| 21:24.08 | JeffM2501 | if that logic involves rand(); then sure ;) |
| 21:24.09 | Erroneous | procedural content frequently has random or randomized components |
| 21:24.14 | Erroneous | like bzwgen |
| 21:24.24 | Winny | ok, thanks |
| 21:24.28 | JeffM2501 | but that's not the same as just random data |
| 21:24.37 | Erroneous | it can be ;) |
| 21:24.44 | Erroneous | very simple procedure |
| 21:24.44 | JeffM2501 | heh |
| 21:24.55 | Erroneous | that's how we generate the jamming noise for the radar |
| 21:25.04 | Erroneous | "dump a bunch of random into this texture" |
| 21:25.04 | JeffM2501 | indeed |
| 21:25.23 | Erroneous | then it is both procedural, AND noise :) |
| 21:25.32 | JeffM2501 | should add some logic to that that gives it alpha streaks |
| 21:25.40 | JeffM2501 | so it looks like real interfeance over the radar |
| 21:25.57 | JeffM2501 | and moving scan lines |
| 21:26.13 | JeffM2501 | ooo or mpeg artifacts |
| 21:26.18 | JeffM2501 | like a bad sat signal |
| 21:26.19 | Erroneous | hah |
| 21:26.41 | JeffM2501 | every so often have it pick up the spanish bee guy |
| 21:27.47 | JeffM2501 | mentaly commands newegg to pack his order |
| 21:30.16 | Think_Differentl | is waiting on UPS to ship his newegg order |
| 21:37.55 | think_tank | our friend nightmare is reporting that he's unable to get the server list in his client. did we find a way to selectively block our best players? |
| 21:38.42 | Winny | the serverlist is blocking his IP |
| 21:38.51 | Winny | 'cause he was running a cheat server I believe |
| 21:39.56 | think_tank | ahhhh yes |
| 21:40.02 | think_tank | so it has a double bonus |
| 21:40.10 | Winny | indeedly |
| 21:40.19 | think_tank | blocks people from coming to his server...and keeps him out of the others :) |
| 21:40.48 | think_tank | perhaps we should implement this technique for other select "players" |
| 21:41.32 | Mets | lol |
| 21:41.50 | Mets | can he use stats though? |
| 21:42.05 | Mets | to just manually type in the address, or his he also blocked from bzflag web pages |
| 21:43.03 | F687s | I wouldn't think so. |
| 21:43.21 | JeffM2501 | think_tank, we can and do on a case by case basis, but it is not something we take lightly |
| 21:43.54 | F687s | I wouldn't see the purpose of having stats if you can't play, though. ;-) |
| 21:44.08 | Mets | no point blocking somebody with a dynamic router from seeing the listserv when they can fire up a web page and get the whole serverlist anyway |
| 21:44.24 | JeffM2501 | Mets, it is so they can not list the host |
| 21:44.29 | JeffM2501 | we are not saying they can not play |
| 21:44.34 | think_tank | are those on the masterban list already blocked? |
| 21:44.40 | JeffM2501 | since we don't tell server owners who can and can not use THREE system |
| 21:44.46 | JeffM2501 | think_tank, no |
| 21:44.56 | Constitution | *their |
| 21:44.58 | JeffM2501 | he was violating our public usage policy |
| 21:45.04 | JeffM2501 | so we blocked his server from the list |
| 21:45.09 | Mets | JeffM2501: right, but did you just block the ip he was running his server on, or all known nightmare ips? |
| 21:45.13 | JeffM2501 | if he plays from the same machine so be it. |
| 21:45.15 | think_tank | yes, i'm familiar with the history, just didn't realize the alternate effect it had |
| 21:45.19 | JeffM2501 | Mets, just the server. |
| 21:45.31 | Mets | k, he'll be back I'm sure :p |
| 21:45.35 | think_tank | naturally |
| 21:45.47 | JeffM2501 | go reg only and id ban him |
| 21:45.51 | JeffM2501 | then you'll be fine |
| 21:46.24 | Mets | i'm actually looking forward to see how the new version will turn out in regards to cheating |
| 21:46.39 | JeffM2501 | don't expect miracles |
| 21:46.45 | JeffM2501 | it dosnt' do much server side checking at this time |
| 21:46.55 | Mets | I know, but it's a start :) |
| 21:47.12 | JeffM2501 | it will prevent some of the cheats, but not the realy bad ones |
| 21:47.43 | think_tank | diligent admins will remain important in cheat prevention even with 3.0 |
| 21:47.56 | Mets | most new cheaters don't really know how to fully use the clients it doesn't seem, they do stupid cheats that are super obvious |
| 21:48.14 | JeffM2501 | and those are the ones we have no protection against |
| 21:48.34 | Mets | no anti-laser-lock on yet? :p |
| 21:49.03 | AAA_awright | There is no difference between a really good player and a client that makes a bad player better |
| 21:49.14 | JeffM2501 | aimbots will be the hardest thing to detect |
| 21:49.29 | AAA_awright | You could only limit angular velocity and acceleration, and restrict where a player can fire based on that |
| 21:49.47 | Winny | JeffM2501: only accept movement from the keyboard to move the tank? |
| 21:49.49 | AAA_awright | Which would prevent some types of auto-shots |
| 21:49.49 | JeffM2501 | yes but there will always be a fudge factor for lag |
| 21:49.51 | think_tank | AAA_awright, sure there is |
| 21:49.59 | JeffM2501 | AAA_awright, yes some types |
| 21:50.01 | Mets | hardest thing to detect from a server perspective, easiest thing to detect from an observer perspective |
| 21:50.25 | JeffM2501 | 3.0 does not send shot data to the server on fire |
| 21:50.33 | Mets | when you can shoot at wings from the ground without a gm flag, it's pretty clear |
| 21:50.39 | JeffM2501 | so it can only shoot where the tank is pointing |
| 21:51.02 | think_tank | does 3.0 track tank bearing? |
| 21:51.03 | JeffM2501 | the MsgShotBegin just has a timestamp and an ID |
| 21:51.10 | Mets | I like the GM lock on thing by the way Jeff, very cool |
| 21:51.12 | JeffM2501 | yes, it does |
| 21:51.14 | JeffM2501 | or at least tries |
| 21:51.14 | AAA_awright | JeffM2501: There is no "real" change, you could always infer tank position at the time of fire based on the shot data, this just swaps it out, infer the shot data based on tank position |
| 21:51.27 | JeffM2501 | AAA_awright, that's what I just said we do |
| 21:51.42 | JeffM2501 | the shot is based off the interpolated tank pos |
| 21:51.51 | JeffM2501 | and an update is sent right before the shot |
| 21:52.08 | AAA_awright | Mets: I doubt that, I have firsthand seen admins ban players because what was actually lag and out of order packets they thought was an auto-aimer |
| 21:52.11 | JeffM2501 | the shot message is basicly just a "trigger pull" now |
| 21:53.17 | AAA_awright | fire now with the tank at position/heading, versus fire at position/heading, no difference |
| 21:53.18 | JeffM2501 | it's even more abstracted in the shot branch |
| 21:53.34 | Mets | I don't know AAA, that'd be some impressive lag/packet mix up when you start shooting at things flying around in the air |
| 21:53.39 | AAA_awright | shot-wise, yeah, it prevents cheating better, but it is nothing a server couldn't detect |
| 21:53.47 | AAA_awright | It just wasn't implemented |
| 21:54.05 | JeffM2501 | AAA_awright, I never said the server can't detect, just what it does and does not do, and what aspects will be hard |
| 21:54.30 | JeffM2501 | a modfied client that sends a small update to line up the shot perfectly will be nearly undetectable |
| 21:54.40 | JeffM2501 | as long as that update is within acceptable game limits |
| 21:54.42 | JeffM2501 | that's an aim bot |
| 21:54.49 | JeffM2501 | sure, Shooting out the tanks ass, that's preventable |
| 21:55.14 | AAA_awright | Mets: It can look like they are setting their position to a position abruptly, not smoothly turning their aim. |
| 21:55.15 | JeffM2501 | but not somethign that will line up a perfect kill |
| 21:55.43 | JeffM2501 | AAA_awright, in the shot branch if that happened, the shot would be updated on the laggy client to match where it was on everyone |
| 21:55.50 | JeffM2501 | so they all see the same shot |
| 21:56.04 | JeffM2501 | punish the laggy not the players. |
| 21:57.12 | JeffM2501 | other then the shot slot split, being able to update a player's shots in flight is the best feature of the shot branch |
| 21:57.16 | AAA_awright | You don't have to be very laggy, if you can turn at 90 degrees/second, and you reverse your angular velocity, over 100ms that is quite a big gap that can go unaccounted for |
| 21:57.32 | AAA_awright | looks up default turn rate |
| 21:57.44 | JeffM2501 | the moment you start turning DR will fire off updates |
| 21:57.55 | JeffM2501 | since it does it on deviation |
| 21:58.13 | JeffM2501 | and it's all timestamped now |
| 21:58.39 | AAA_awright | With timestamps it is better (weren't they allways timestamped? I thought I saw a time field somewhere) |
| 21:58.52 | JeffM2501 | the field was not used in branch |
| 21:59.04 | JeffM2501 | so no they were not |
| 21:59.47 | AAA_awright | It was just nonsense then? |
| 21:59.58 | JeffM2501 | 0 IIRC |
| 22:00.05 | *** join/#bzflag SpazzyMcGee (n=SpazzyMc@unaffiliated/spazzymcgee) |
| 22:00.22 | JeffM2501 | but yeah it wasn't usefull |
| 22:00.59 | AAA_awright | Would have been nice to know that, I spent a day trying to figure out what it does a while back, nothing in the source about it |
| 22:01.06 | AAA_awright | But even with timestamps, until you receive that new packet with a 100ms delay, you think the tank it still turning, You don't see it watching, and it doesn't matter for shooting, but you see it observing. |
| 22:02.09 | Thumper_ | JeffM2501: oh you mean that 700+ dollars you spent wasn't for shirts? :-P |
| 22:02.19 | Thumper_ | catches up on the backlog |
| 22:02.24 | AAA_awright | There are some admins that don't realize that that is a natural consequence of lag, and think it is an auto-aimer that can just jump to a tank |
| 22:02.40 | JeffM2501 | Thumper_, nope not this time? |
| 22:03.27 | JeffM2501 | the last shirt order was the order of the beast 666.13$ |
| 22:04.06 | Thumper_ | likes his shirts... and now his kid is all jealous and wants one too |
| 22:04.44 | JeffM2501 | Thumper_, we have blue and gray left |
| 22:04.50 | Thumper_ | he's a green fan |
| 22:05.13 | Thumper_ | and he's small :) |
| 22:05.18 | JeffM2501 | I have smalls |
| 22:05.21 | JeffM2501 | but not in green |
| 22:05.26 | JeffM2501 | it'll be a bit before we do another order |
| 22:05.36 | JeffM2501 | Mill green will be my next color choice |
| 22:05.48 | Lukstr | JeffM2501: Mediums? |
| 22:05.52 | Thumper_ | no rush. I'll just let him be green with envy instead of green with a shirt for awhile |
| 22:05.53 | Lukstr | (in stock) |
| 22:06.06 | JeffM2501 | Lukstr, sure |
| 22:06.14 | JeffM2501 | Lukstr, I have all sizes in blue |
| 22:06.18 | Lukstr | shweet. I'll crack the google master card on it |
| 22:06.19 | Thumper_ | we'll probably wait for the next order window - if you remember let me know when that is so I can get one for him |
| 22:06.22 | Thumper_ | (thx) |
| 22:06.24 | Lukstr | what about grey? |
| 22:07.18 | JeffM2501 | small and XL IIRC |
| 22:07.22 | Lukstr | boourns |
| 22:10.15 | Erroneous | sticks ->getFMFace()'s everywhere |
| 22:12.30 | Erroneous | yay crash |
| 22:16.59 | *** join/#bzflag Ride (n=Ride-@24-197-250-9.dhcp.stpt.wi.charter.com) |
| 22:19.40 | *** join/#bzflag spldart (n=vircuser@c-98-197-19-50.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) |
| 22:19.40 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v spldart] by ChanServ |
| 22:22.03 | *** join/#bzflag Phase (i=phase@unaffiliated/phase) |
| 22:24.15 | spldart | BugQ Didja get setup succesfully |
| 22:24.17 | spldart | ? |
| 22:27.47 | *** join/#bzflag me1 (n=me1@unaffiliated/me1) |
| 22:31.57 | spldart | Now there is ONLY VC8 in /msvc ? |
| 22:32.04 | spldart | heh |
| 22:32.26 | *** join/#bzflag Constitution (n=const@unaffiliated/macsforme) |
| 22:32.41 | JeffM2501 | yes |
| 22:32.51 | JeffM2501 | 7.1 was deprecated last night |
| 22:33.12 | blast007 | spldart: did you use 7.1? |
| 22:33.14 | spldart | Wasn't there another VCver in there? |
| 22:33.15 | spldart | No |
| 22:33.16 | blast007 | k |
| 22:33.20 | spldart | I'm cool with vc8 |
| 22:33.24 | blast007 | no, 71 and 8 |
| 22:33.31 | blast007 | there might have been a 9 at some point |
| 22:33.33 | spldart | I thought the older VC was rid a bit back |
| 22:33.36 | spldart | oh |
| 22:33.38 | JeffM2501 | 9 has "issues" |
| 22:33.47 | spldart | maybe it was nine that was rid a while back and I got them mixed |
| 22:33.48 | JeffM2501 | that I don't care to resolve at this time :) |
| 22:33.50 | blast007 | VC6 was ditched back in 1.10 iirc |
| 22:33.53 | spldart | Anywho.. I'm cool |
| 22:34.05 | JeffM2501 | 8 can be goten for free so it that's a good place to be |
| 22:34.09 | spldart | Hehe.. I started with bzflag when 2.0 was brand spanking new |
| 22:35.58 | spldart | was just checking on the latest code in both win and lin and noticed the latest changes |
| 22:38.40 | bugQ | erm, well, I'm goofing things up in the build |
| 22:38.54 | spldart | How so? |
| 22:38.59 | bugQ | or someone has goofed them up for me. |
| 22:39.10 | spldart | wha? |
| 22:39.20 | JeffM2501 | "someone"? |
| 22:39.42 | bugQ | it's not working for reasons not fully known. |
| 22:39.49 | spldart | You windows or linux? I know debug windows trunk builds fine right now |
| 22:39.50 | JeffM2501 | what OS and what errors are you getting? |
| 22:40.27 | spldart | Still building linux debug trunk but it's a slower rig.. looks good so far though |
| 22:40.57 | bugQ | mac os 10.4.11, a bunch of undefined symbols in freetype |
| 22:41.26 | JeffM2501 | you've rerun autogen and configure? |
| 22:41.30 | bugQ | ya. |
| 22:41.36 | JeffM2501 | summons brlcad |
| 22:41.47 | JeffM2501 | that is a place where much as changed. |
| 22:41.56 | spldart | Is this a fresh checkout today? or did you svn up an old checkout? |
| 22:42.06 | bugQ | the latter |
| 22:42.14 | JeffM2501 | should not matter |
| 22:42.26 | JeffM2501 | more then likley something has been broken in FTGL |
| 22:42.30 | JeffM2501 | lots has changed htere |
| 22:42.31 | spldart | I had some oddball freetype symbol problems in linux a couple few weeks ago |
| 22:42.39 | JeffM2501 | mac is "odd" with that |
| 22:42.47 | JeffM2501 | JBdiGriz, have you build trunk on your mac? |
| 22:43.07 | spldart | another mentor fixed me by telling me to get a fresh checkout. Just thought I'd share.. Not that that would help here |
| 22:43.14 | JeffM2501 | you can try |
| 22:43.23 | JeffM2501 | but it may not do anything ether |
| 22:43.31 | JeffM2501 | what symbols are missing? |
| 22:45.22 | bugQ | __Unwind_Resume, vtable for __cxxabiv1::__si_class_type_info, operator delete(void*), operator new(unsigned long), ___gxx_personality_v0, operator delete[](void*), operator new[](unsigned long), ___dynamic_cast, vtable for __cxxabiv1::__class_type_info, ___cxa_pure_virtual, std::ios_base::Init::Init(), std::ios_base::Init::~Init(), ___cxa_guard_abort, ___cxa_guard_acquire, ___cxa_guard_release |
| 22:45.47 | JeffM2501 | yeah you may want to try a clean dir |
| 22:45.50 | spldart | http://pastebin.bzflag.bz/ I a nice place to put anything long :) |
| 22:45.51 | JeffM2501 | you could have some old stuff in there |
| 22:46.09 | spldart | s/I/Is |
| 22:46.11 | JeffM2501 | we've modified the build systems |
| 22:46.15 | bugQ | right then... |
| 22:46.21 | JeffM2501 | specificly for freetype and ftgl in the past week |
| 22:46.39 | spldart | ftgl has been fast and furious lately it seems :-0 |
| 22:46.58 | JeffM2501 | mostly for multibyte |
| 22:47.54 | bugQ | well, that's a worthy cause, i suppose |
| 22:48.20 | JeffM2501 | that and because some devs here are now devs and maintainer for FTGL :) |
| 22:48.25 | JeffM2501 | so we can get it fixed up |
| 22:49.17 | spldart | Ah. Debug build of trunk on linux is successful as well :) |
| 22:49.30 | JeffM2501 | go buy a mac and test the last one :) |
| 22:49.35 | spldart | r17308 |
| 22:49.39 | spldart | snap |
| 22:49.43 | spldart | No. |
| 22:49.54 | JeffM2501 | comeon, it's suposed to be "Better" |
| 22:49.58 | JeffM2501 | all the ads say so |
| 22:50.11 | Winny | don't make me sing the song from the new one |
| 22:50.12 | spldart | If it's on tv and the internet it must be true |
| 22:50.23 | spldart | #/mind numbed zombie |
| 22:50.26 | JeffM2501 | and film, don't forget the movies |
| 22:50.28 | spldart | ;-p |
| 22:50.33 | spldart | oh yeah |
| 22:50.37 | spldart | can't forget them |
| 22:50.54 | JeffM2501 | it's so much better they charge 250$ to 2000$ more for the OS> |
| 22:51.33 | spldart | I haven't owned a product from that company since my Apple IIGS |
| 22:51.51 | JeffM2501 | how many ipods do your daughters have? |
| 22:51.54 | spldart | Even had a Z80 coprocessor and extra memory card |
| 22:52.02 | spldart | Heh... You got me. One |
| 22:52.02 | Constitution | Apple doesn't run a philanthropic charity... they'll sell their products at the most economically beneficial price |
| 22:52.05 | spldart | I helped her hack it |
| 22:52.08 | spldart | But it's not mine |
| 22:52.17 | JeffM2501 | spldart, who paid for it? ;) |
| 22:52.23 | spldart | Not I |
| 22:52.28 | spldart | Or teh wifey |
| 22:52.37 | JeffM2501 | legaly you own all things your daughter does |
| 22:52.46 | JeffM2501 | as you are resposnible for her use of the EULA |
| 22:52.51 | spldart | Rich neighborhood.. A friend bought it for her at her last birthday party |
| 22:52.55 | spldart | LOL |
| 22:52.56 | JeffM2501 | suck it up, you own an apple device ;) |
| 22:52.58 | spldart | Your mean |
| 22:53.03 | JeffM2501 | truth hurts |
| 22:53.07 | spldart | takes a bath |
| 22:53.10 | spldart | feels dirty |
| 22:53.23 | JeffM2501 | Constitution, no they will charge what the apple freaks will pay ;) |
| 22:53.34 | JeffM2501 | and 50$ more |
| 22:53.45 | Winny | covers brlcad's ears |
| 22:53.47 | JeffM2501 | tho if they did have a midrange desktop I'd consider it |
| 22:53.51 | spldart | lolz |
| 22:53.54 | JeffM2501 | I liked the concept of the mini |
| 22:53.56 | JeffM2501 | a lot |
| 22:54.01 | JeffM2501 | it was just too mini |
| 22:54.15 | spldart | I'd have to run into something thrown away that I could fix before I'd own one |
| 22:54.17 | bugQ | the OS I am using just happened to come with the machine, which was a gift...`.` |
| 22:54.28 | JeffM2501 | and I ain't paying 2.3k for a quad core |
| 22:54.37 | spldart | brb taking eldest to school concert |
| 22:54.54 | JeffM2501 | 710$ was hard enough to blow on desktop upgrades |
| 22:54.58 | Winny | I hope they drop the prices of the Mac pros are WWDC |
| 22:55.03 | Winny | they have for the past 2 years |
| 22:55.11 | Winny | s/are/at |
| 22:55.21 | JeffM2501 | Winny, I still dbout it'll go down enough |
| 22:55.34 | JeffM2501 | they are using high end hardware, so it'll still be in the 2k range |
| 22:55.47 | JeffM2501 | I want the guts of an imac, in a desktop box |
| 22:55.52 | Winny | if they got the quad down to 2100 and upped the RAM to 4gb I might do it |
| 22:55.58 | JeffM2501 | cus I already have my own nice 24 inch display ;) |
| 22:56.07 | JeffM2501 | Winny, that's still overkill |
| 22:56.21 | JeffM2501 | the xenon isn't that much faster then a core2 quad |
| 22:56.53 | Constitution | JeffM2501: which is what is most economically beneficial for them :) |
| 22:56.53 | Constitution | if people will pay such and such a price, why charge less? |
| 22:56.57 | JeffM2501 | Constitution, because not everyone will pay that price |
| 22:57.15 | JeffM2501 | if you lower your price 10% and sell 40% more, you make more then you did before |
| 22:57.31 | JeffM2501 | it's a ballance |
| 22:57.42 | JeffM2501 | volume vs price. |
| 22:57.49 | Erroneous | whee |
| 22:57.57 | Constitution | right, hence why I said "economically beneficial," not just "highest price anyone will pay" |
| 22:58.13 | Constitution | what that price is on each product is up for debate, I guess |
| 22:58.22 | JeffM2501 | Constitution, yet they are charging the highest price peple will pay, not what will give them the most profit, IMHO |
| 22:58.26 | CIA-33 | BZFlag: 03dtremenak * r17309 10/trunk/bzflag/ (45 files in 5 dirs): |
| 22:58.26 | CIA-33 | BZFlag: * Allow per-locale default and overridden fonts. |
| 22:58.26 | CIA-33 | BZFlag: * Allow global dynamic changes (without restart) to font face settings. |
| 22:58.26 | CIA-33 | BZFlag: * Translators: translate the strings "_consoleFont" "_serifFont" and "_sansSerifFont" to the font names that you would like to use as defaults. I have done Russian as an example. |
| 22:58.26 | CIA-33 | BZFlag: * You may override the fonts used by the translator with the consoleFont_xx, serifFont_xx, and sansSerifFont_xx variables, where "xx" is the locale (i.e. consoleFont_ru). |
| 22:58.28 | Erroneous | if people could test this commit, I'd much appreciate it. should work as is. |
| 22:58.29 | gravygoat | I imagine Apple is well aware of the "best" price for profit |
| 22:58.31 | CIA-33 | BZFlag: * You may set the defaults (for when the translator does not specify a font) with the old consoleFont, serifFont, and sansSerifFont variables. |
| 22:58.47 | JeffM2501 | people have always begged apple for specific hardware, and they have never given it to them |
| 22:59.20 | JeffM2501 | they come out with an appliance instead ;) |
| 22:59.42 | JeffM2501 | a mid range sub 1000$ desktop would be a perfect seller I think |
| 22:59.53 | JeffM2501 | since they are using off the shelf hardware now |
| 22:59.59 | JeffM2501 | the margin should be quite good |
| 23:00.07 | Winny | yeha |
| 23:00.11 | Erroneous | hm, where's flash when ya want him |
| 23:02.02 | JeffM2501 | tho we'll see how much I stick with my statements after my upgrade, it may be hell :) |
| 23:02.26 | Winny | should probably go figure out xcode |
| 23:06.05 | *** join/#bzflag QuantumBeep (i=QB@cpe-72-190-32-30.tx.res.rr.com) |
| 23:13.57 | JeffM2501 | yay my stuff shipped |
| 23:14.08 | bugQ | yay for stuff. |
| 23:14.20 | Winny | I too, enjoy stuff |
| 23:14.35 | JeffM2501 | who doesn't? |
| 23:14.39 | Winny | Constitution |
| 23:14.45 | JeffM2501 | that comunist! |
| 23:14.58 | JeffM2501 | the I guess I'll just give my old stuff to Erroneous |
| 23:15.25 | JeffM2501 | I'm sure he'll put the 4 gigs of ram to good use |
| 23:15.45 | Constitution | what are you updating to? |
| 23:15.56 | JeffM2501 | quad core 6600 |
| 23:16.02 | blast007 | nice :) |
| 23:16.25 | JeffM2501 | and bigger rams |
| 23:17.18 | JeffM2501 | and.... vista |
| 23:17.31 | Winny | dum dum dummmm |
| 23:17.47 | JeffM2501 | I should have enough ram and cores for it |
| 23:18.19 | blast007 | JeffM2501: that's what they want you to think |
| 23:18.40 | JeffM2501 | if not then I won't feel any regret about using 64 bit XP |
| 23:18.50 | blast007 | though it runs okay on a dual core with 1GB of RAM ;) |
| 23:19.05 | JeffM2501 | I will have more then that on all fronts |
| 23:19.06 | blast007 | for what I do on it, anyway |
| 23:19.25 | JeffM2501 | cores x2 rams x8 |
| 23:19.30 | blast007 | heh |
| 23:21.14 | Erroneous | yay old stuff |
| 23:22.02 | Erroneous | tries to come up with some use for 4gb of ram |
| 23:22.17 | JeffM2501 | it's good DDR2 |
| 23:22.25 | Winny | Erroneous: Send it here ;) |
| 23:22.27 | JeffM2501 | 6400 |
| 23:22.43 | JeffM2501 | dunno if you have any other systems to use it in, so probably just keep it with the board |
| 23:22.46 | Erroneous | Winny: I'll need it to run the mobo |
| 23:23.05 | JeffM2501 | it only runs at 666 not 800 tho :( |
| 23:23.08 | Erroneous | all my current stuff is ddr400 |
| 23:24.09 | JeffM2501 | it may overclock if you play with it |
| 23:24.35 | Erroneous | cpu speed will certainly be welcome |
| 23:24.42 | JeffM2501 | yeah 3 gig |
| 23:24.48 | JeffM2501 | your at what 1.8? |
| 23:25.53 | JeffM2501 | ahh 2.0 probably |
| 23:26.14 | Erroneous | yeah, I'm pretty sure it's 2.0 |
| 23:26.18 | Erroneous | it's a windsor iirc |
| 23:26.59 | JeffM2501 | I think it has double the cache from the 3800 |
| 23:27.07 | Erroneous | mm, no, windsors are am2 |
| 23:28.30 | Erroneous | yeah, looks like the 6k's had twice the cache |
| 23:29.16 | JeffM2501 | and the joy of the semi dead end AM2 slot :) |
| 23:29.53 | Erroneous | well, as opposed to the dead end 939? :) |
| 23:30.10 | JeffM2501 | true |
| 23:30.28 | JeffM2501 | at least you COULD throw a pehnom in the board if you somehow wanted to |
| 23:31.54 | Erroneous | not really seeing that happening |
| 23:38.58 | JeffM2501 | maybe if you found one WICKED cheap |
| 23:39.00 | JeffM2501 | like 50$ |
| 23:40.39 | Erroneous | yeah, maybe |
| 23:41.39 | Erroneous | probably be more likely to pick up an am2+ mobo at the same time even then though |
| 23:41.46 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 23:42.00 | JeffM2501 | it's not a bad mobo, just not AM2+ |
| 23:42.14 | JeffM2501 | it's an abit, I replaced the ECS that came with the chip |
| 23:42.23 | Erroneous | ah, cool |
| 23:42.41 | Constitution | hmm, eight GSoC students this year with my first name :) |
| 23:42.46 | JeffM2501 | nice |
| 23:42.54 | JeffM2501 | joshtasic! |
| 23:43.05 | Winny | Josiah we shall call him, then |
| 23:44.14 | Constitution | hm, how did eight become five when I counted it the second time? |
| 23:44.55 | Erroneous | lost some fingers to a band saw? |
| 23:45.18 | Winny | did you crack open that big bottle of smirnoff or whatever it was? |
| 23:45.28 | bugQ | okay, well, the fresh checkout did nothing |
| 23:45.44 | *** join/#bzflag Ride- (n=Ride-@24-197-250-9.dhcp.stpt.wi.charter.com) |
| 23:46.08 | JeffM2501 | bugQ, then you need the loving care of brlcad |
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| 23:48.55 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v bryjen] by ChanServ |
| 23:51.36 | JeffM2501 | http://graphjam.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/funny-graphs-jaws-bigger-boat.gif |
| 23:52.21 | Winny | -_- |
| 23:52.33 | JeffM2501 | http://graphjam.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/funny-graphs-those-about-to-rock.jpg |
| 23:54.32 | *** join/#bzflag cods (n=cods@rsbac/developer/cods) |
| 23:54.57 | L4m3r | o_O |
| 23:55.36 | Winny | I think he finally went (more) insane |
| 23:56.11 | L4m3r | heh, the Beastie Boys reference that album in one of their songs, too :P |
| 23:56.28 | bugQ | I'm getting Leopard and thus Boot Camp soon, so I can finally set up a triple-boot, and free myself of Mac quirkiness, at least as far as the project is concerned |
| 23:57.15 | JeffM2501 | http://graphjam.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/funny-graphs-what-people-call-me-what-i-am.gif |
| 23:57.35 | JeffM2501 | bugQ, we should build decently on a mac |
| 23:57.43 | JeffM2501 | as it is just over 1/4th of our user base |
| 23:57.54 | Winny | http://blog.mlive.com/mediumfidelity/2008/03/large_rick-astley.jpg .. had to |
| 23:58.06 | F687s | All Hail the Quirkiness of the Macintosh! It's like Unix, but not like Unix! |
| 23:58.26 | Winny | F687s: so it's like the people that own harleys but are nice? |
| 23:58.54 | JeffM2501 | no it's the people who own a honda and wish it was a harley ;) |
| 23:59.24 | *** join/#bzflag Pimpinella (n=frank@gondolin.pimpi.org) |
| 23:59.40 | F687s | Winny: No, it's like the people who take the emblems off a Mercedes and put them on a Kia. |
