| 00:04.50 | *** join/#bzflag delusional (n=delusion@pool-141-158-97-37.pitt.east.verizon.net) |
| 00:06.26 | Thumper_ | JeffM: I think there's a check in the code that prevents the Geno flag in rabbit mode |
| 00:17.35 | JeffM | ahh |
| 00:17.38 | JeffM | then mod the server |
| 00:21.12 | *** join/#bzflag O-Neil (n=Miranda@dslb-088-070-084-035.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 00:30.51 | I_Died_Once | tell me what to mod and i will |
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| 01:04.35 | spldart | predicts a quiet period caused by the new episode of Dr. Who " the fires of pompie" |
| 01:04.42 | spldart | <sp> |
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| 01:36.43 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o brlcad] by irc.freenode.net |
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| 02:27.09 | awilcox | ~seen jude- |
| 02:27.10 | ibot | jude- <n=jude-@c-68-84-206-92.hsd1.az.comcast.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #bzflag, 29d 21h 37m 29s ago, saying: 'Lukstr--I'm pretty sure the explosion is seen by all if its in sight'. |
| 02:27.55 | awilcox | um. hi peoples. |
| 02:28.17 | awilcox | I come back to the bzdev scene with a lot more programming experience under my belt. |
| 02:28.18 | spldart | Hi Dee Ho |
| 02:28.32 | awilcox | well, at least a lot more knowledge about stuff. |
| 02:28.58 | awilcox | so did someone else get assigned to my position as the guy who is going to write network documentation, or is that still my job? |
| 02:29.30 | spldart | ... |
| 02:29.54 | awilcox | Oh, hi spldart! How goes it? |
| 02:30.14 | spldart | It goes well. |
| 02:30.48 | awilcox | (In retrospect, that was probably the single dumbest question I've ever asked on IRC. Who else would _want_ to write network documentation?) |
| 02:30.53 | spldart | And I'm not aware of anyone being ' appointed ' or ' assigned ' to that task. You were? |
| 02:31.19 | awilcox | I believe I was before I lost my ability to IRC. |
| 02:31.27 | awilcox | Mibbit to the rescue. |
| 02:31.29 | spldart | 8-0 |
| 02:34.44 | AAA_awright | If it helps, I was writing a low-level specification on the BZFlag Protocol |
| 02:34.59 | AAA_awright | It's... not published currently |
| 02:36.59 | awilcox | no this was like a code walkthrough. |
| 02:37.07 | awilcox | trying to explain what the code does, why it does, etc. |
| 02:40.59 | spldart | Your up to speed on what's goin on at the moment in bzflag trunk right now right? |
| 02:43.30 | awilcox | not at all. |
| 02:43.46 | awilcox | last I was here was February, and I was here one day in April...the last day before my then-newly-found IRC proxy died. |
| 02:43.47 | spldart | oh |
| 02:43.58 | spldart | lemme pm yah |
| 02:44.02 | Think_Differentl | awilcox, can you not connect on port 8000? |
| 02:44.03 | awilcox | okay. |
| 02:44.13 | awilcox | Think_Differentl: well part of my problem is lack of client. |
| 02:44.17 | Think_Differentl | ah |
| 02:44.18 | awilcox | all Win32 clients suck raw eggs. |
| 02:44.48 | awilcox | X-Chat is slow as crap, irssi doesn't work right at least for me, HydraChat or whatever doesn't log and the scrollbar doesn't work |
| 02:45.07 | Think_Differentl | mIRC/ |
| 02:45.29 | awilcox | 30 day evaluation. |
| 02:45.36 | awilcox | Expiration of trial for the lose. |
| 02:45.37 | Think_Differentl | oh, they make you pay? that's too bad. |
| 02:45.51 | *** join/#bzflag JeffM (n=JeffM@cpe-75-83-217-37.socal.res.rr.com) |
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| 02:56.10 | AAA_awright | Did anyone ever consider using HTTP authentication for the list server login? |
| 02:58.08 | spldart | irrssi in terminal ftw |
| 02:59.01 | AAA_awright | ChatZilla is alright, as long as you are using just one server. >=20 tabs is too much |
| 02:59.30 | AAA_awright | Well, the UI is, the fact it is tied to Firefox is not. |
| 03:03.31 | *** join/#bzflag bz03 (n=4cbb2dd3@bz.bzflag.bz) |
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| 03:20.58 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v DTRemenak|RDP] by ChanServ |
| 03:28.10 | brlcad | what a day |
| 03:28.23 | awilcox | hi brlcad! how goes? |
| 03:28.54 | awilcox | I think it's Hug Your Local Developer day. just in case.... |
| 03:28.56 | awilcox | hugs brlcad |
| 03:30.07 | brlcad | hah |
| 03:30.11 | brlcad | thx, going good |
| 03:32.19 | awilcox | brlcad: glad to hear that |
| 03:32.39 | awilcox | this is one of those 'why did I go into IT?' days for me. but meh, anyways. |
| 03:33.18 | spldart | It should be MT shouldn't it? Misinformation technologies |
| 03:33.26 | awilcox | haha |
| 03:33.46 | awilcox | no, it should be IT. Incorrect Technology. |
| 03:33.52 | spldart | ah ok |
| 03:34.30 | spldart | DIT Dismenation of Misinformation Technologies |
| 03:34.35 | spldart | meh |
| 03:34.45 | spldart | <sp> is pwning me again |
| 03:35.18 | brlcad | going great really, found my favorite blade yesterday that I'd thought I'd lost over a year ago, got car fixed, new driver's license, saw a vision doc and apparently still have 20/20 vision (last check was 12 years ago), got some snazzy new computer/reading glasses regardless, bought some toys, visited my godson, a pretty good day ;) |
| 03:35.46 | brlcad | hasn't done that many chores in one day in years :) |
| 03:36.09 | brlcad | awilcox: so stay away from IT, learn CS |
| 03:36.12 | spldart | is happy that brl had such an eventul yet still positive day |
| 03:36.30 | brlcad | is giddy most that he found his knife |
| 03:36.46 | brlcad | thought I left it in arizona |
| 03:36.52 | spldart | :) |
| 03:37.31 | spldart | I found my fav Gerber K..niffee under my old plymouths seat two days ago |
| 03:37.55 | brlcad | luvs his kershaw |
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| 03:44.04 | blast007 | AAA_awright: what would that gain us? |
| 03:44.28 | awilcox | brlcad: sounds like a fun day |
| 03:44.30 | AAA_awright | Better cross compatibility |
| 03:44.55 | awilcox | brlcad: and meh, depends on your definition. the exact definition for my woe is 'why did I get into object-oriented design?' |
| 03:47.12 | spldart | meh.. is JeffM's plan still, at some degree, on for this weekend? |
| 03:47.29 | *** join/#bzflag cjhopman (n=cjhopman@24-183-44-113.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com) |
| 03:47.34 | AAA_awright | blast007: That is why it is in the HTTP standard, to be used. Along with those caching headers that are unused in BZFlag. |
| 03:47.58 | AAA_awright | It isn't hard, I implemented both with cURL in the Stats/CAN plugin. |
| 03:48.21 | blast007 | again, what would it gain us? |
| 03:48.33 | blast007 | I don't see how "cross-platform" comes into play |
| 03:50.38 | blast007 | you're saying that POST/GET variables are less cross-platform than HTTP Authentication? |
| 03:51.09 | AAA_awright | blast007: It would gain us the benefit of caching data for faster access, less network traffic, and extendable authentication which can not be done with GET/POST data |
| 03:51.24 | AAA_awright | Digest, for instance |
| 03:52.25 | AAA_awright | Apache could be programmed to take care of authentication for a speed boost, which leaves the HTTP payload for its intended purpose: data, not logic |
| 03:52.32 | brlcad | ~catay++ |
| 03:52.43 | blast007 | why can't we cache data right now? |
| 03:52.57 | AAA_awright | Because BZFlag can not handle it |
| 03:53.20 | AAA_awright | You have to actually send the caching headers to the server first, and send them back |
| 03:53.45 | AAA_awright | Hm, that is an idea, an Apache module for sending the list server data.... |
| 03:54.00 | AAA_awright | Brilliant! |
| 03:54.10 | AAA_awright | Thanks :D |
| 03:54.31 | AAA_awright | Actually, I do not know how well that would work |
| 03:59.25 | *** join/#bzflag Constitution (n=const@unaffiliated/macsforme) |
| 03:59.36 | spldart | is still loooking @ k_nniffees |
| 04:01.06 | AAA_awright | Constitution: Bounce an idea off you, you have constructive ideas: What about implementing the list server as an apache module? |
| 04:02.08 | AAA_awright | Fast, threaded, efficient, and implement all the things HTTP has to offer, authentication, caching, etc. We can keep the same PHP scripts for 2.0. Idk, an idea. |
| 04:02.29 | Constitution | would it really be much faster? |
| 04:02.42 | Constitution | there's been some discussion of implementing it as a lighttpd module |
| 04:03.07 | Constitution | for speed and efficiency reasons |
| 04:03.10 | AAA_awright | lighttpd, even better. Isn't there a standard API for servers floating somewhere? PHP does it. |
| 04:03.17 | AAA_awright | Somehow. |
| 04:03.36 | blast007 | sigh... |
| 04:03.54 | AAA_awright | I can't find anything on the Lighttpd module API, apache is well documented though |
| 04:03.55 | blast007 | I don't see how caching will really help that much |
| 04:03.59 | Constitution | ~comfort blast007 |
| 04:03.59 | ibot | There, there, blast007. It's OK. I'm here for you. |
| 04:04.09 | blast007 | oh look, we saved 2 seconds of our life! yay! |
| 04:04.32 | AAA_awright | blast007: It's that sort of thinking that makes products as slow as Vista. Come on here. |
| 04:04.38 | *** join/#bzflag TimRiker (n=timr@rikers.org) |
| 04:04.38 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 04:04.42 | blast007 | AAA_awright: no |
| 04:04.59 | AAA_awright | 2 seconds is 1/2 the time it takes to load the list server. |
| 04:05.21 | blast007 | no, 3 seconds to load the list |
| 04:05.33 | blast007 | and that's even passing through my local proxy script |
| 04:05.39 | AAA_awright | Google says that people will start giving up after 1/4 of a second load time. |
| 04:05.40 | blast007 | so we can add a bit of processing there as well |
| 04:05.46 | blast007 | AAA_awright: this isn't a web page |
| 04:05.48 | blast007 | it's a GAME |
| 04:06.11 | Constitution | slow as vista? is it possible to present an idea without backhandedly bashing other operating systems or software? ;) |
| 04:06.18 | AAA_awright | It is fetching data from a remote source, the interface is irrelevant, it is the fact that there is data waiting to be displayed |
| 04:06.40 | blast007 | AAA_awright: you really need to focus on something more useful |
| 04:07.20 | AAA_awright | I actually focus on the quality part of stuff, that is my job title for BZFX. |
| 04:07.36 | blast007 | k |
| 04:07.38 | blast007 | that's nice |
| 04:07.42 | Constitution | AAA_awright: revamping the auth service is one of the GSoC projects for this year. Might want to look into it, if you haven't already. http://code.google.com/soc/2008/bzflag/appinfo.html?csaid=166AA480603757D1 |
| 04:08.05 | blast007 | Constitution: oh, I'm sure he'll be upset about something there |
| 04:08.11 | AAA_awright | I looked at it, and was a bit... vocal... about it. |
| 04:08.28 | blast007 | like always |
| 04:08.54 | Constitution | heh |
| 04:09.11 | AAA_awright | I did testing with different data backends anyways |
| 04:09.29 | blast007 | with our list server code? |
| 04:09.36 | Constitution | well if we're going to be rewriting it, I think we might as well do it just once, and make sure that the one who does it does it in the preferred way :) |
| 04:09.43 | Constitution | that's all I'm saying |
| 04:09.44 | blast007 | with actual situations that occur on our list server? |
| 04:09.46 | AAA_awright | My list server implementation, the official one too |
| 04:10.15 | AAA_awright | I was testing data storage, I only touched the surface of stress testing it |
| 04:10.18 | blast007 | do you have a summary of your findings posted somewhere? |
| 04:10.46 | AAA_awright | Check the IRC logs, I discussed it, but didn't record any scientific numbers |
| 04:11.53 | AAA_awright | My goal has not been stress testing anyways, it was finding a solution that would be readily accessible with MediaWiki, phpBB, our list server, BZFlag, and whatever else. |
| 04:12.06 | AAA_awright | Both authentication and data. |
| 04:12.35 | AAA_awright | blast007: Anything else to ask? |
| 04:12.47 | blast007 | nope |
| 04:13.05 | AAA_awright | I am still working on it too, http://aaa.busyflag.org |
| 04:13.32 | Constitution | ssslllllooooooowwwww... :P |
| 04:13.38 | blast007 | that page loaded too slow, so I just closed the window |
| 04:13.47 | blast007 | it took longer that 1/4 of a second. sorry. |
| 04:13.59 | AAA_awright | Local connection, sorry not much I can do |
| 04:14.14 | blast007 | maybe switch to lighttpd, or do some caching |
| 04:14.25 | AAA_awright | I use... |
| 04:14.31 | AAA_awright | lighttpd |
| 04:14.41 | AAA_awright | Yes. MediaWiki does caching. |
| 04:15.16 | AAA_awright | The connection has been jittery lately, dropping connections, for 3 days now, cannot figure out why. |
| 04:15.23 | brlcad | pawning winny's efforts off as your own or just showing that it's possible to make the same skin in media? |
| 04:15.44 | AAA_awright | brlcad: Winny knows I am using that skin, he helped me with some of it |
| 04:16.08 | AAA_awright | Showing it can be done entirely with MediaWiki |
| 04:16.22 | brlcad | that was never in question |
| 04:16.39 | *** join/#bzflag Upsetter (n=Ups@i577B7528.versanet.de) |
| 04:16.48 | L4m3r | you are exceedingly skilled at stating the obvious, AAA :P |
| 04:16.50 | AAA_awright | Maybe I do not understand then |
| 04:17.00 | brlcad | maybe |
| 04:17.25 | AAA_awright | L4m3r: I didn't know how clear Winny's efforts with this were |
| 04:18.18 | L4m3r | I was referring to "Showing it can be done entirely with MediaWiki" |
| 04:18.20 | brlcad | winny is waiting for me to set up the cms, they didn't stop |
| 04:18.32 | brlcad | which I intend to do this weekend |
| 04:20.12 | AAA_awright | I do not like the idea of having too many programs to manage. If we have a Wiki, why not use that as the website? There are things it cannot do, like forums, but it certainly isn't limited from News or front page stuff. Specifically, |
| 04:20.54 | brlcad | AAA_awright: must we *really* rehash this yet again .. there is a disagreement, simple as that |
| 04:21.14 | AAA_awright | My issue is it is too many login programs to manage, I worked on a single sign on system for the website, which works, needs some debugging, and I would really like to keep it simple. I do not see ANY advantages in a dedicated CMS at all. |
| 04:21.21 | brlcad | you've been told why, you don't like those reasons -- that doesn't change the reasons or the former discussion |
| 04:21.46 | *** join/#bzflag AlexanderLAW (n=Alexande@83.239.109.165) |
| 04:22.11 | AAA_awright | I wasn't trying to imply that. I have things I have found out though, which do affect that. |
| 04:23.59 | brlcad | whatever you imply or don't, you're repeating the same questions for things that have been discussed at length (even with you involved) so at some point it really just becomes counterproductive and coercive |
| 04:24.00 | AAA_awright | Drupal, I believe that is the one planned, is... a mess. Code wise, almost everything. The thing it seems to get right is the modular part. We don't need it for content, we don't have to have it for news, and it is something seperate from the better maintained Wiki content. And it is a pain to program a login plugin for. |
| 04:24.11 | AAA_awright | That last issue is the killer for me, above all else. |
| 04:24.27 | brlcad | ergo, "there is a disagreement, simple as that" |
| 04:24.41 | AAA_awright | Because it is directly relevant, that is why. |
| 04:25.20 | brlcad | that doesn't make it any less counterproductive or coercive |
| 04:25.41 | AAA_awright | Uh, exactly? |
| 04:26.17 | brlcad | seriously, i'm not going down this discussion with you tonight, once again |
| 04:26.28 | blast007 | AAA_awright: he's talking about your constant discussion about this |
| 04:26.37 | brlcad | i believe it'd make the third or fourth time |
| 04:26.50 | AAA_awright | Now, I have this great (but help needed) single sign on system. I have asked for input for it. Anyone interested in comments? |
| 04:26.55 | brlcad | you don't like drupal .. understood, thanks for your opinion |
| 04:26.59 | brlcad | now can we move on |
| 04:28.04 | L4m3r | brlcad, I disagree... I would say that it is in fact less counterproductive, but only because it approaches zero |
| 04:28.30 | L4m3r | i.e. the more one hears the same thing over and over, the more likely they are to just ignore it |
| 04:30.06 | AAA_awright | You may be tired of this, but I will not, and do not, settle for sub-par-quality. If something better becomes an option, I would abandon everything and (or at least make the existing system work first, then) work on what is best. If it ruins plans to improve the website greatly, as long as the existing one works, I am all for changing course. Realize what my philosophy is about first. |
| 04:30.32 | L4m3r | And who are you again? |
| 04:30.39 | blast007 | AAA_awright: you're free to fork your own version |
| 04:30.48 | AAA_awright | Just because of the work there may be in Drupal, doesn't mean we are required to continue. |
| 04:30.50 | L4m3r | Being loud does not give you clout |
| 04:31.01 | AAA_awright | I did not imply that. |
| 04:31.27 | AAA_awright | Now, I have this good-not-great system I made. No one seems interested. |
| 04:32.04 | AAA_awright | The only thing anyone bothers to pay attention to, it seems, is what you already have set in stone. |
| 04:32.54 | blast007 | again, you're free to fork your own perfect version of BZFlag |
| 04:33.10 | AAA_awright | Read that last point. |
| 04:33.12 | AAA_awright | Again. |
| 04:33.34 | blast007 | nah |
| 04:33.36 | spldart | MEH |
| 04:33.38 | brlcad | AAA_awright: the problem is the vast quantities of "I" and "my" this and that, you really don't compromise or work well with other developers most of the time without massive effort. you consistently come across as exceptionally egotistical from my perspective and are more concerned about what you have in mind for others to work with you rather than you working with others |
| 04:34.02 | AAA_awright | L4m3r brlcad Constitution: Ideas on the Website single sign on system, or the server module concept? (For the third time) |
| 04:34.32 | AAA_awright | blast007? |
| 04:35.01 | brlcad | if you didn't act that way, others would be more receptive -- telling people to do things your way and not being compromising (or even fully relinquishing at times) isn't something most want to put up with, much less being told what to do |
| 04:35.48 | L4m3r | since brlcad probably does more work than anyone on the website end (though Jeff probably comes close) I'm inclined to trust his judgement |
| 04:36.07 | brlcad | jeff beats me way out on the bb |
| 04:36.15 | L4m3r | yeah, which is why I noted him |
| 04:36.17 | blast007 | it's not like we just blindly picked Drupal. It was based on features. |
| 04:36.29 | L4m3r | but there's more than BZBB and the store ;) |
| 04:37.00 | *** join/#bzflag AlexanderLAW (n=Alexande@83.239.109.165) |
| 04:37.01 | AAA_awright | I get ideas all the time from you guys. Maybe I do not thank you enough. idk. |
| 04:37.10 | brlcad | and it's also not like we're 100% set on drupal, it's just the next stepping stone (based on features and requirements) to fully test under deployment |
| 04:37.46 | brlcad | AAA_awright: I .. I .. it's not all about you |
| 04:38.09 | brlcad | or rather, it IS about you not working *with* others more .. you're off coding and testing behind a curtain for the most part |
| 04:38.20 | brlcad | only popping out from behind it to show a new web page from time to time |
| 04:38.24 | AAA_awright | brlcad: I used the word "you" in that last message an equal number of times if you did not happen to notice |
| 04:38.33 | brlcad | that's not how things work (here) |
| 04:39.13 | brlcad | AAA_awright: yes, and in both instances, 'I' was the subject, 'you' the predicate |
| 04:39.22 | L4m3r | No one wants to be paid homage anyway |
| 04:39.26 | AAA_awright | That has to do with the fact I don't spend 100% of my time on #bzflag |
| 04:39.33 | brlcad | nobody here does |
| 04:39.34 | L4m3r | it's about cooperation (and tact) |
| 04:39.43 | brlcad | ~L4m3r++ |
| 04:39.51 | spldart | right?! |
| 04:40.26 | spldart | I wanna help bzflag in my spare time cuz I wanna help.. Not I wanna special somethingorother |
| 04:40.28 | AAA_awright | I throw out new features. I get input, throw out new ideas. Ideas that improve quality. You don't have to accept them, I am by no means forcing you, but come on. |
| 04:40.47 | L4m3r | It's not like everyone is in unanimous agreement about every decision that is made |
| 04:41.20 | L4m3r | but when it comes down to it, you state your opinion and rationale (once) and if most of the others don't see it your way, so be it |
| 04:41.26 | AAA_awright | The best one in the last few days, I believe, was inspired by JeffM, MsgTeam. Now, there was a disagreement on implementation, but at least the feature was well recieved. |
| 04:42.12 | AAA_awright | Specifically, a client-to-server MsgTeam packet, for re-joining without needing to negotiate authentication and all the other slow stuff. |
| 04:42.26 | blast007 | AAA_awright: uh, you can already change teams in 2.99.x |
| 04:42.40 | blast007 | I had even writting a server command to switch my team |
| 04:42.48 | AAA_awright | blast007 brlcad: idk if you gave any input on that |
| 04:42.58 | blast007 | input on what? |
| 04:43.04 | spldart | ??? |
| 04:43.12 | AAA_awright | the "Change Team" field/button |
| 04:43.17 | brlcad | case in point, I've probably disagreed with blast007 just as many times over the years as with you (okay, maybe not quite as much), but we can usually easily work out differences .. and with him I'm much more willing to conceed to direction on diferences because of his history/merit with the project |
| 04:44.54 | *** join/#bzflag short_circuit (n=short_ci@c-98-197-19-50.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) |
| 04:45.01 | AAA_awright | To change the topic, maybe you all have some input to add: it changed some, but I ended up settling on this after some thinking: |
| 04:45.43 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v spldart] by ChanServ |
| 04:45.48 | brlcad | AAA_awright: this IS my input/feedback to you about that feature development -- we can't get to the technical issues in a productive manner because it's generally a pita to work *with* you |
| 04:46.06 | brlcad | i really wish it wasn't that way, and hope it doesn't stay that way of course |
| 04:46.33 | brlcad | as I really do have to see good talent lost and/or effort wasted |
| 04:46.47 | AAA_awright | Look, I do ask for feedback. Problem is I only get it when it is a disagreement. |
| 04:47.22 | blast007 | hate* |
| 04:47.23 | AAA_awright | If the server, port, and callsign are the same as the ones used in the server connection, and the user has changed the team, and the password is unchanged, send a MsgTeam packet instead of disconnecting. If the server replies with MsgTeam, no additional disconnecting or re- negotiating is needed. |
| 04:47.49 | AAA_awright | The "Connect" field in that case changes to "Change Team" |
| 04:47.57 | brlcad | asking for feedback is for shite, you have to *cooperate* and *coordinate* with others, and NOT just having others working with you or feeding you information |
| 04:48.36 | AAA_awright | If the user needs to reconnect, and the server would reply to the MsgTeam packet, the user still has the option of using "Leave Server" from the main menu. |
| 04:48.42 | brlcad | blast007: ah, yes, *hate* thanks :) |
| 04:48.53 | brlcad | hehe |
| 04:49.09 | AAA_awright | brlcad: That is the same thing. Cooperating and working with? |
| 04:49.27 | brlcad | the difference is in the direction of the interaction |
| 04:49.38 | brlcad | you -> group .. NOT group -> you |
| 04:50.03 | brlcad | to date, it's almost entirely been the latter |
| 04:50.35 | brlcad | that's not productive, and not cooperation on your part from my perspective |
| 04:50.37 | AAA_awright | Maybe I just misunderstand the "present message"/"read response" format that most conversation is. |
| 04:53.36 | AAA_awright | The problem I see, and maybe you can get something out of this, is the strict "I go my own way when I want to" idea that some, especially JeffM, have with group software development. I actually present new ideas and take in feedback, not this one-person this is what I am working on mentality. |
| 04:54.35 | AAA_awright | I have several projects I am working on, the only person who seems to help is a_meteorite, and that is just with the Stats plugin/CAN project. |
| 04:54.46 | L4m3r | which orifice did you pull that out of? none of the devs make major unilateral changes |
| 04:54.52 | brlcad | not sure what you're trying to say with that really other than you do go off and do what you want to? |
| 04:55.55 | L4m3r | Jeff will discuss significant changes before starting them... in this channel. perhaps you don't pay enough attention. |
| 04:55.59 | AAA_awright | This isn't the problem with you, but how many times has JeffM said (and don't take this personally JeffM) "look, there is no plan, no roadmap, we work on what we want when we want to |
| 04:56.21 | blast007 | AAA_awright: there isn't really. that doesn't mean we don't discuss stuff. |
| 04:56.25 | AAA_awright | Significant changes maybe, but that is just informative when I have seen them. |
| 04:56.34 | L4m3r | "We" is not the same thing as "I" |
| 04:56.59 | AAA_awright | as in, "collection of us Is" |
| 04:57.41 | blast007 | AAA_awright: let me know when you have a point. |
| 04:57.43 | AAA_awright | It is also significantly different from We work together on what is best for the quality and success of the project. |
| 04:57.51 | brlcad | AAA_awright: there is also only some truth to that statement -- there is no *formalized* plan or roadmap .. but each developer does generally have their plans and ideas, and collectively the group has a general plan and roadmap that we work towards |
| 04:58.38 | AAA_awright | I know you hold that position brlcad, blast and Con too. |
| 04:58.52 | brlcad | that also doesn't mean to imply that we don't (massively) coordinate, collaborate, and discuss -- get buy-in from other devs -- get constant user feedback -- work intimately with each other on the implementation |
| 04:59.00 | L4m3r | we work, together or independently, on stuff that is generally agreed to be "good" for the project |
| 04:59.22 | L4m3r | "best" is a matter of opinion and if we hung up on that, nothing would get done |
| 04:59.36 | L4m3r | where there is little collaboration in the actual coding, there is prior discussion |
| 04:59.55 | AAA_awright | That is where the problem is. No one has any sense of Quality, how to mesh, or producing meshing products. Personally, the GSoC is the best leadership thing that has happened to BZFlag since... I can remember. |
| 05:00.12 | AAA_awright | (I can remember is 2 years ago) |
| 05:01.56 | AAA_awright | This *is* a major project, and needs the coordination that other projects have. It doesn't hold up when everyone has their own ideas about what is best, especially when none of those ideas put quality of use as a priority. |
| 05:02.16 | short_circuit | grr |
| 05:02.23 | short_circuit | Your wording |
| 05:02.31 | AAA_awright | Good? |
| 05:02.33 | short_circuit | It can be.. |
| 05:02.42 | short_circuit | inflammatory @ times |
| 05:03.02 | short_circuit | hard to tell |
| 05:03.16 | short_circuit | just reading type without hearing emotion behind it |
| 05:04.04 | AAA_awright | It's a persuasive speech, a bit strong, but not angry. |
| 05:04.18 | AAA_awright | That help? :p |
| 05:04.42 | short_circuit | At times it seems that... Other times it really appears to cross the line to overbearing |
| 05:05.13 | short_circuit | Do you have any Drama or Speech in your education? :-) |
| 05:05.28 | L4m3r | I think "condescending" is a more precise word |
| 05:05.59 | short_circuit | meh.. I'm trying to be.. diplomatic.. but it's harder than I suspected. |
| 05:06.09 | AAA_awright | Indeed |
| 05:06.41 | short_circuit | aye |
| 05:08.07 | brlcad | AAA_awright: it's held up for over a decade, you're the outlier right now |
| 05:08.25 | brlcad | everyone has their own ideas, that's always been the case .. we work together and resolve them |
| 05:08.53 | brlcad | with you, though, there's not much resolving as you don't work with us |
| 05:09.05 | AAA_awright | Because there have always been people to support it, like you. That doesn't have much to do with a good model though. |
| 05:09.19 | brlcad | BS |
| 05:09.33 | AAA_awright | . |
| 05:10.11 | purple_cow | speaking of summer of code! |
| 05:10.16 | AAA_awright | Look, my issue is with how stunningly hard it is to... do... anything, really. |
| 05:10.21 | AAA_awright | To get an idea thrown around before I get to doing any coding. |
| 05:10.22 | purple_cow | brlcad: you dudes should totally take advantage of http://www.chipx86.com/blog/?p=255 |
| 05:10.25 | brlcad | purple_cow: poor chip :) |
| 05:10.27 | AAA_awright | To ask about a feature. |
| 05:10.40 | AAA_awright | To ask about a lack of one feature. |
| 05:10.42 | short_circuit | Hard to do!!!! |
| 05:11.08 | brlcad | purple_cow: saw the whole thread interaction on the list, was going to chime in but leslie spoke up |
| 05:11.30 | short_circuit | This isn't a function of difficulty of implementation of an idea accepted by the collective leadership |
| 05:11.32 | purple_cow | yeah, it's a bummer that dibona lashed out |
| 05:11.42 | short_circuit | That's easy |
| 05:11.46 | AlexanderLAW | hi there. i'm new here, is it a channel related to bzflag coding? |
| 05:11.52 | short_circuit | and coming about a direction to preceed was easy |
| 05:12.01 | L4m3r | AlexanderLAW: yes, you're in the right place |
| 05:12.23 | AlexanderLAW | I want ask a question about Unicode support |
| 05:12.25 | L4m3r | You were the one who asked about unicode support for the bzflag UI, correct? |
| 05:12.30 | L4m3r | ah, yup :) |
| 05:12.30 | AlexanderLAW | yes |
| 05:12.36 | brlcad | purple_cow: it was worded very spammy .. I almost deleted it right off the bat before I recognized chip86 in the e-mail .. if it wasn't for his name familiarity I would have blown it off |
| 05:12.39 | AAA_awright | A generally good idea |
| 05:12.57 | AlexanderLAW | then how can it be done? |
| 05:13.07 | brlcad | i think it really just came down to how it was specifically phrased/organized |
| 05:13.14 | purple_cow | brlcad: yeah... |
| 05:13.19 | purple_cow | but seriously, you should do it |
| 05:13.36 | AlexanderLAW | i can try to implement it myself, but i need to cooperate, to understand in which way it's have to be done |
| 05:13.42 | AAA_awright | AlexanderLAW: There is TTF support being added, that is one step, in 3.0/2.1/2.99 which isn't likely to see a stable release for a while |
| 05:13.54 | purple_cow | the way most people do software looks like twigs and stone tools compared to RB ;) |
| 05:13.57 | AAA_awright | Actually, added, needs some tuning, but mostly done |
| 05:14.06 | AlexanderLAW | should i add some new module for UTF conversion |
| 05:14.47 | AlexanderLAW | or just insert one internalt method into existing class FontManager |
| 05:15.48 | brlcad | purple_cow: well the way you *were* doing things was certainly twigs and stone to do it via e-mail, there's still a question of whether the overhead of explicit reviews of (all?) changes is worth it for some folks ;) |
| 05:15.54 | brlcad | streamlined process advocates |
| 05:15.55 | AlexanderLAW | so it's unclear whether we will see TTF-support in 3.0? |
| 05:16.12 | purple_cow | and the answer to that question is obvious to me |
| 05:16.16 | AAA_awright | brlcad: Any answer to Unicode support? You are the biggest authority on this right now |
| 05:16.25 | purple_cow | having done it both ways |
| 05:17.09 | AAA_awright | AlexanderLAW: TTF is implemented in 3.0 currently, needs a bit of tuning, but it implemented. |
| 05:18.09 | AAA_awright | AlexanderLAW: A consideration is that Callsigns are limited to printable ASCII characters, unicode doesn't work, and is rejected by servers. It would be limited to chat if the system is left as is. |
| 05:18.09 | AlexanderLAW | well, so if UTF-8 support will be added, we'll see it in 3.0 release too? |
| 05:18.10 | brlcad | AlexanderLAW: there are several ways to implement it, but if you do get started -- you should probably work on trunk (2.99) where there is more support in place already |
| 05:18.20 | brlcad | (i.e. not the last source release) |
| 05:18.27 | purple_cow | 2.99? wow |
| 05:18.37 | AlexanderLAW | well, i'm trying to compile 2.99 just now |
| 05:19.06 | AAA_awright | purple_cow: Didn't know about the third numbering system change now? |
| 05:19.18 | AlexanderLAW | and about callsigns - what prevents from using UTF-8 in it? |
| 05:19.38 | AlexanderLAW | as i understand UTF-8 string is not distinct from char string |
| 05:19.48 | blast007 | AlexanderLAW: harder to ban/kick with UTF-8 |
| 05:19.50 | AAA_awright | AlexanderLAW: Nothing, I presume. Servers only allow printable ASCII characters, which means UTF is excluded |
| 05:20.06 | L4m3r | the answer to most "why" questions in BZFlag is "inertia" |
| 05:20.14 | AAA_awright | Heh :) |
| 05:20.15 | brlcad | purple_cow: I've done it both ways too, but find myself leaning more towards the streamlined processes as the years roll by (depending on the devs, of course, implicit trust/competence required) .. i'm interested in giving RB a try at work actually (where we're *exceptionally* process heavy usually) |
| 05:20.16 | AlexanderLAW | well, but maybe we can just do it later |
| 05:20.18 | purple_cow | AAA_awright: naw, I don't really pay attention to this project anymore |
| 05:20.25 | blast007 | easier for people to "spoof" names, since they could use extended characters that resemble regular letters |
| 05:20.42 | AAA_awright | All the better for you, purple_cow :p |
| 05:20.55 | AlexanderLAW | ok, but my first wish was to localize UI |
| 05:21.20 | AAA_awright | AlexanderLAW, blast007: Similar to unicode in domain names, the problem with that? |
| 05:21.31 | brlcad | AlexanderLAW: yeah, I wouldn't start with callsign modifications as those have implications and limitations across the global registration system and other configuration settings |
| 05:21.31 | AlexanderLAW | yes, i understand |
| 05:22.23 | brlcad | updating the font system, though, and resources to be utf8 shouldn't be too tricky, though -- would have to propagate around wchar types more consistently |
| 05:23.18 | AlexanderLAW | but as I understand ftgl supports Unicode |
| 05:23.31 | brlcad | yeah, iirc it does |
| 05:23.35 | brlcad | but you have to get to it |
| 05:23.50 | brlcad | which means rippling unicode changes throughout bz |
| 05:24.06 | brlcad | i'd probably start with resource loading myself |
| 05:24.31 | brlcad | try to get it to display unicode .po files correctly |
| 05:24.37 | AlexanderLAW | but why not preserve char in the main code, but just trasform utf-8 to unicode when displaying strings |
| 05:24.43 | purple_cow | brlcad: well, we designed it to be pretty informal |
| 05:25.19 | AlexanderLAW | i think .po will be loaded without changes |
| 05:25.29 | purple_cow | so it may not be super good for enforcing policy -- it's just a tool |
| 05:25.43 | purple_cow | but if there's a social layer on top, it's awesome |
| 05:26.35 | AlexanderLAW | one question is raised though - i18n chars in a font file |
| 05:26.39 | purple_cow | what VCS do you use at work? |
| 05:26.50 | brlcad | newsflash, creators of koolaid think their new drink tastes great? :) |
| 05:27.14 | purple_cow | brlcad: it's delicious |
| 05:28.12 | brlcad | depends on the project, I think the main three in use are svn, cvs, and mercurial (plus a few outliers) |
| 05:28.51 | brlcad | svn has the momentum by far though, even over dvcs |
| 05:29.21 | purple_cow | well, dvcs has a much bigger learning curve |
| 05:29.44 | purple_cow | though maybe my mind is warped about that, since I chose to learn git |
| 05:30.03 | brlcad | learning curve, familiarity, management "distrust" (they don't feel they can control it) |
| 05:30.33 | purple_cow | yeah, I can see that being a big hurdle |
| 05:31.02 | awilcox | dies. |
| 05:31.09 | awilcox | you lucky people. you get to use svn at work! |
| 05:31.14 | brlcad | I still believe it *can* be destructive for small open source communities that haven't passed a burden/sustainability overhead |
| 05:31.16 | awilcox | all I get is this stupid visual sourcesafe :( |
| 05:31.34 | brlcad | awilcox: I would quit |
| 05:31.39 | brlcad | i seriously would |
| 05:31.40 | purple_cow | brlcad: yeah, I would believe that |
| 05:31.45 | awilcox | haha |
| 05:32.10 | purple_cow | I am so spoiled at work with perforce and git-p4 |
| 05:32.15 | purple_cow | it's like a total dream |
| 05:32.20 | awilcox | but the people are nice, and the work is challenging yet still fun, and they are very nice. |
| 05:32.47 | brlcad | there are nice people and challenging work all over the place |
| 05:33.59 | brlcad | having to deal with the mindset of developers that are actually okay with sourcesafe isn't something I'd likely be okay with |
| 05:34.44 | purple_cow | :) |
| 05:35.52 | awilcox | none of us like sourcesafe |
| 05:36.02 | brlcad | so change it |
| 05:36.06 | awilcox | but it's the only thing we can figure out how to run on Win64 |
| 05:36.57 | awilcox | Raises the age old question: How many developers does it take to install subversion server on a 64-bit Windows? |
| 05:37.17 | brlcad | eh, so there are other incompetence issues then .. if every developer on the project (especially the damn leads/architect(s)) can't figure out how to set up a different vcs, there are other experience problems |
| 05:37.26 | AAA_awright | Of course, I have a personal bias ;), but while SVN has momentum, Git is where it is at, quite a number of projects use it now, the kernel and Wine to name a few. |
| 05:37.36 | purple_cow | it's so great |
| 05:37.44 | purple_cow | after you finish the brick-to-the-head phase |
| 05:37.52 | L4m3r | heh heh heh.... |
| 05:38.24 | brlcad | AAA_awright: those are "big" projects that are quite passed the burden/sustainability overhead level I mentioned earlier |
| 05:38.30 | L4m3r | the Linux kernel and Wine are both unaffected by what I see as git's largest issue at present |
| 05:38.45 | awilcox | brlcad: you are talking to "the damn lead"... |
| 05:38.46 | brlcad | things really can fall apart quickly for small projects (less than 100 devs) |
| 05:38.55 | brlcad | awilcox: hehe, "oh" :) |
| 05:39.21 | AAA_awright | brlcad: Yes |
| 05:39.40 | L4m3r | but I'd say the nice thing about git is that it can just talk to svn :) |
| 05:39.41 | brlcad | thinks awilcox should figure out how to get svn set up ;) |
| 05:39.54 | awilcox | tries. again. |
| 05:40.19 | brlcad | heck, just grab a spare box, install linux or bsd, set up a server |
| 05:40.23 | brlcad | done in less than an hour |
| 05:40.25 | AAA_awright | BZFlag, I believe, fits into that category too, where we have a number of people working on the same project, we want that network of trust that SVN doesn't give you |
| 05:40.41 | AAA_awright | Problem is stability, reputation, and windows support though. |
| 05:40.53 | brlcad | I don't think bzflag is anywhere near that category |
| 05:41.01 | awilcox | I still don't understand git. |
| 05:41.19 | AAA_awright | awilcox: Watch the talk Linus gave on it. That is what "converted" me |
| 05:41.33 | awilcox | ohhhhhh! |
| 05:41.39 | AAA_awright | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XpnKHJAok8 |
| 05:41.40 | awilcox | that's why svn wouldn't run, we don't have apache D= |
| 05:41.45 | brlcad | and that's crap, git doesn't give a "network of trust", quite the contrary it lets you do whatever the heck you want without having to work with others |
| 05:42.10 | brlcad | svn *requires* that network of trust to operate effectively, e.g. in order to get commit access |
| 05:42.17 | awilcox | makes a NetBSD VM on the sexy Xeon he controls as project lead :D |
| 05:42.18 | brlcad | that's one of the main critiques |
| 05:42.19 | AAA_awright | brlcad: On the contrary, it forces you to talk with other people |
| 05:42.38 | L4m3r | I think git is a great idea and a great piece of software, and I'd like to use it, but I do NOT think it is right for bzflag at all |
| 05:42.47 | AAA_awright | A merge is the same thing as a commit in SVN, commits are much smaller and less important in Git |
| 05:43.14 | AAA_awright | It is easy for people with dev access to say that. Problem is when others want to contribute, what happens? |
| 05:43.19 | purple_cow | brlcad: svn has a wall of trust |
| 05:43.24 | brlcad | git has social implications, something that linus doesn't have to care about at all |
| 05:43.25 | purple_cow | whereas git has the network |
| 05:43.33 | AAA_awright | Also, nothing stops you from having a central respiratory like SVN. |
| 05:44.00 | AAA_awright | There are several servers that host push repositories that you push to. |
| 05:44.07 | brlcad | sure it does .. the complexity of the git commands :) |
| 05:44.11 | *** join/#bzflag EvanEjk (i=EvanEjk@ppp15.pm3-4.man-ch.nh.localnet.com) |
| 05:44.20 | AAA_awright | git clone = svn co |
| 05:44.35 | awilcox | j #oop |
| 05:44.38 | awilcox | er, whoops. |
| 05:44.47 | EvanEjk | Do you add a texture to a mesh like you would to a box? |
| 05:45.01 | AAA_awright | git push = svn commit, git commit is... unparalleled in speed :D |
| 05:45.08 | brlcad | AAA_awright: i've used/use it, this is nothing new |
| 05:45.35 | AAA_awright | You realize I was joking the first time I brought it up, a while back, yes? |
| 05:45.36 | brlcad | it's not the technical capabilities (which really practically just amounts to offline commits and repo copies) |
| 05:45.48 | L4m3r | like I said, fantastic concept and good software, but NOT a match for bzflag in any respect. At all. |
| 05:46.14 | L4m3r | that said, you are free to run your own git repo that feeds off the official one |
| 05:46.26 | AAA_awright | Maybe that has something to do with how BZFlag contributions work. |
| 05:46.40 | AAA_awright | L4m3r: Way ahead of you :D |
| 05:47.16 | L4m3r | AAA_awright: and have some tact, please |
| 05:47.27 | AAA_awright | jk, jk, come on |
| 05:48.44 | L4m3r | (do not use git as a platform to bitch about how the project isn't accepting your contributions) |
| 05:50.17 | brlcad | of all the benefits, off-line commits and hierarchical source management are really the main real benefits of most dvcs systems like git .. and that's where the size of the community seriously matters as to whether the community would actually benefit from a more formalized hierarchy of committers |
| 05:50.52 | brlcad | and in bzflag's case, that's a resounding NO .. we're nowhere near the size where that becomes beneficial (not even half way there) |
| 05:51.11 | L4m3r | heh |
| 05:51.33 | L4m3r | not even the same order of magnitude, if you count developers that are somewhat active |
| 05:51.35 | awilcox | according to what you said up there, we'd need 100 devs. we're not a quarter of the way there at last I checked :p |
| 05:51.37 | brlcad | decentralization would just have more of a chance of fragmenting communication even more, cliks of effort |
| 05:51.47 | brlcad | awilcox: yep |
| 05:51.57 | AAA_awright | brlcad: I can't speak for the official developers, but for casual developers/contributers/would-be-writing-patches-if-it-was-easy like me, it would be amazing, because all of a sudden you have direct access to the revision tree |
| 05:52.26 | brlcad | AAA_awright: you already have that |
| 05:52.26 | awilcox | but you do have direct access to the tree. svn co. unless I misunderstand. |
| 05:52.26 | L4m3r | you have that now, do you not? |
| 05:52.32 | brlcad | git-svn |
| 05:52.43 | brlcad | so what's the difference |
| 05:53.10 | brlcad | the difference is you don't have commit access, because you don't work well with others .. that problem doesn't change with a dvcs |
| 05:53.18 | AAA_awright | You don't have git-pull. Now, there is git-diff, but that isn't any different then svn diff |
| 05:53.29 | awilcox | AAA_awright: the problem of "I can't commit" won't be solved in bzflag magically switching to git. in fact you still couldn't commit. |
| 05:53.37 | awilcox | er, "push". whatever. |
| 05:53.57 | AAA_awright | push doesn't matter, you can see my revisions now, if you like em, you can pull them. |
| 05:54.09 | AAA_awright | I can make a fork, and if you like the change, you can merge it back in. |
| 05:54.21 | brlcad | that's still no different! |
| 05:54.21 | L4m3r | you can do all of that now |
| 05:54.25 | brlcad | you can publish your changes now |
| 05:54.45 | brlcad | we're no more or less likely to pull them |
| 05:54.49 | AAA_awright | That is what I have been doing. You tell me how well that has gone. |
| 05:55.05 | awilcox | AAA_awright: and the difference if bzf used git? |
| 05:55.40 | AAA_awright | Huh? |
| 05:55.53 | brlcad | exactly! us using git doesn't solve that problem, if anything it just might give the impression that we might be more receptive to merge some change from you when in fact we're exactly the same with svn |
| 05:56.15 | AAA_awright | I am not seriously pushing anything, keep in mind, I realize what most of your points are |
| 05:56.21 | purple_cow | it's always easier to whine about the process than do something real ;) |
| 05:56.29 | AAA_awright | Heh |
| 05:57.03 | brlcad | purple_cow: I'm going to use that quote at work, thanks :) |
| 05:57.21 | purple_cow | do I get royalties? |
| 05:57.27 | brlcad | yep |
| 05:57.28 | L4m3r | and, at the end of it all, lack of windows support is a total deal-breaker anyway |
| 05:57.33 | brlcad | for every dollar I get |
| 05:57.39 | brlcad | from that quote |
| 05:57.44 | brlcad | *ahem* |
| 05:57.57 | purple_cow | they're not going to be paid out in "kisses from sean morrison", are they? |
| 05:58.02 | brlcad | hehe |
| 05:58.10 | brlcad | only if they kiss me |
| 05:58.29 | brlcad | and given my coworkers, it'd more likely involve stabbings |
| 05:58.32 | purple_cow | heh |
| 05:58.42 | purple_cow | is justin still around? |
| 05:59.01 | brlcad | he's around, different area working on robotics |
| 05:59.47 | awilcox | brlcad: so you will be paying purple_cow in the form of stabbings? :p |
| 06:00.22 | brlcad | well, i'm the one that'd likely be doing the stabbing, so he'd probably have to stab me |
| 06:00.52 | brlcad | either way, it's a win win |
| 06:00.55 | purple_cow | brlcad's cute enough that I'd probably go for the kiss instead if I were forced to choose |
| 06:01.03 | brlcad | heh |
| 06:04.09 | AAA_awright | Oh, I remember my reasons for not liking SVN, CVS shares most of these: .svn directory in every path (which is manageable), no real tags, and it makes managing multiple projects a mess. |
| 06:04.57 | AAA_awright | I still use it, because it is convenient. And better then CVS (80% of my dislike of CVS is the content diffing, file renames) |
| 06:06.09 | L4m3r | well, you have yet to offer a compelling reason for the project to use git, and we left CVS behind long ago |
| 06:06.13 | L4m3r | :P |
| 06:06.31 | L4m3r | most of the benefits of git are obtainable with git-svn, conveniently enough |
| 06:06.56 | Constitution | AAA_awright: hmm, is a lot of your opinion of SVN coming from Linus' talk? CVS is ridiculous, SVN users belong in mental institutions, centralized repositories are the devil, etc. ;) |
| 06:06.57 | AAA_awright | Not entirely |
| 06:07.04 | AAA_awright | Heh |
| 06:07.22 | AAA_awright | I don't like tags in SVN, thats all. |
| 06:07.33 | AAA_awright | I don't like how CVS tracks content (it doesn't) |
| 06:08.25 | brlcad | seriously, talk of cvs is pointless, nobody is using it (here) or considering using it .. it's old/obsolete news |
| 06:09.00 | L4m3r | "SVN sucks" isn't a compelling argument for git either :P |
| 06:09.00 | brlcad | nor is not "liking" something either |
| 06:09.18 | brlcad | there are valid technical tradeoffs to both as well as social/managerial |
| 06:09.42 | AAA_awright | My two big issues with SVN and BZFlag: Tags, and multiple projects being thrown together into one respiratory. |
| 06:10.08 | brlcad | multiple projects thrown together is by *choice* |
| 06:10.13 | brlcad | that has nothing to do with svn itself |
| 06:10.18 | AAA_awright | I can svn co and upload the svn diff to sf.net, but that has never gone over very well. |
| 06:10.23 | L4m3r | it's not like you can't check out one at a time anyway |
| 06:11.02 | Constitution | AAA_awright: submitting patches has always been the preferred method... what do you mean it has "not gone over very well"? |
| 06:11.04 | awilcox | eh. maybe it was because mine was an actual bugfix but I didn't actually have to upload it, I just pastebinned it and gave Jeff the link. |
| 06:11.26 | Constitution | if there are issues with the content of your changes, that's an issue with your work, not with the system |
| 06:13.03 | AAA_awright | I have uploaded two patches, and neither were accepted. Well, the changes I proposed were added, because of me, but they were typed in and the only credit I have ever received was by accident, a wrong attribution. |
| 06:13.40 | Constitution | how does that have anything to do with our source management system? |
| 06:14.29 | Constitution | other patches are reviewed and accepted frequently |
| 06:14.49 | L4m3r | As mentioned before, AAA_awright, you are talented at stating the obvious |
| 06:14.57 | L4m3r | so I strongly doubt anyone stole anything from you |
| 06:15.51 | AAA_awright | At least I have one talent |
| 06:16.23 | AAA_awright | (sorry) |
| 06:28.25 | brlcad | there were problems with the patches iirc, and all patches usually entain having productive communications with some existing dev |
| 06:29.56 | brlcad | the weblogin one was not coordinated, it was a data dump |
| 06:34.07 | brlcad | the other was basically applied, regardless of the method (sometimes it is simply easier to type them if the code diverges too far) |
| 06:34.14 | AAA_awright | I got permission from JeffM beforehand |
| 06:34.33 | brlcad | then you misunderstood whatever "permission" you think you were given |
| 06:35.45 | AAA_awright | I explicitly asked, my changes prduced a bigger diff then the actual file, would posting the file be better? JeffM explicitly said please (well, Yes). The file was more readable then the diff too. |
| 06:36.23 | AAA_awright | Maybe, next time, I am gonna post the IRC excerpt along with the patch |
| 06:36.31 | brlcad | huh? this has nothing to do with the file not being a patch |
| 06:36.57 | AAA_awright | And for the second point, |
| 06:37.09 | brlcad | again, you're not listening |
| 06:37.17 | AAA_awright | ... |
| 06:37.59 | brlcad | they're not points to retort, they are what happened .. feedback to you |
| 06:39.18 | AAA_awright | You are saying there was problems with my patches, I am telling you why that was the best way to go about it like I did |
| 06:40.25 | AAA_awright | And for the second point, It was an issue I brought up, I debugged it, found the problem with one other dev, and then uploaded a patch, which apparently didn't matter. Was there some other way I should have done that? |
| 06:40.42 | brlcad | the weblogin one involved a fair number of sweeping changes, which another dev was working on his own set of changes to the weblogin, it was worked on in isolation with nearly no communication, there was no proponent working with you (a committer) that was interested in testing it, reviewing it, applying it (because of how it was worked, other priorities, communication difficulties) |
| 06:41.11 | brlcad | telling me why is retorting, being defensive |
| 06:41.12 | AAA_awright | Come on, I talked about it in IRC fairly extensively |
| 06:41.13 | brlcad | which is pointless |
| 06:41.26 | brlcad | absoluately pointless in this context |
| 06:41.30 | brlcad | you talked |
| 06:41.45 | AAA_awright | It wasn't just a news flash either, it was a conversation with at least JeffM |
| 06:41.48 | brlcad | you talking is not necessarily communicating effectively, and sure didn't get you proponent |
| 06:43.07 | brlcad | i remember the talk, i was here -- you were just as difficult to talk to then too |
| 06:44.18 | AAA_awright | . |
| 06:44.25 | brlcad | you *really* don't seem to get what I mean by teamwork and coordination |
| 06:45.02 | AAA_awright | Most of my ideas are just conversation, before any code. And you blame me for that, as if expecting code to look at. And then when I do prototype code, you blame me for not talking enough. Please, make up your mind. |
| 06:45.41 | brlcad | that's utter bs -- "talking is not necessarily communicating effectively" |
| 06:46.02 | brlcad | you talking or not talking isn't the issue, you weren't/aren't communicating effectively |
| 06:46.46 | brlcad | you're in fact often condescending to others, egotistical, and borderline trolling at times |
| 06:48.50 | brlcad | do with that information as you may, I'm really just trying to help you realize why you still don't yet have commit access despite all your hard efforts and it really is a damn shame on many levels |
| 06:50.05 | brlcad | do with that information as you may |
| 06:50.25 | AAA_awright | I don't really care about code. The code is secondary to me. Quality, especially the user interface, the stricture, making everything work great, is priority to me. Writing code follows that goal. I frankly don't care about commit access. |
| 06:52.45 | brlcad | your priorities and opinions aren't really regarded with much merit because of how you interact with others, not having commit access is merely a symptom of there being a problem, not a goal |
| 06:52.48 | AAA_awright | My ideas, proposals, conversation I (try to) have with people, revolves around that. |
| 06:54.21 | brlcad | to talk about interface, structure, and other priorities require community structure, respect, collaboration, effective communication, and other particulars that by dependency alone are more important than the features themselves |
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| 07:13.12 | BulletCatcher | catay: I have updated to r17115 and configured with --enable-debug, but I still can't reproduce your SIGPIPE. |
| 07:19.51 | AAA_awright | I find it hard to believe that I am always a problem, I know I have, a number of times, help with solving issues, bug reports, select features. That was never a problem. Talking about working on weblogin.php, not a problem (it was a problem when I asked about the status of the "often checked" patches a few weeks later when it was not being looked at), it is, though, about the conflict of... |
| 07:19.53 | AAA_awright | The work flow hardly works. The Wiki is underused for development, underused for what it was designed for. Collaboration. There is no planning going on here. Constitution posted about slowing development work on the branch, it is no wonder. There is no real allocation of work, task management, no quality control, only feature control, on the individual level. I don't get the feeling that... |
| 07:19.54 | AAA_awright | When I want to suggest something, maybe there is a conflict of ideas, I can hardly suggest a compromise, it has to be what the crystal ball says. You don't seem to have problems with the zero-karma patches for features on the patch tracker. There are no problems deciding to make changes all by yourself. Or to people who keep quiet, only fixing bugs, coding as sock puppets, will get added by... |
| 07:19.57 | AAA_awright | ...concepts and ideas that we have. Trying to work on something as simple as a storage backend, seems to be a trouble maker because everyone is so set in the way that they are doing something. |
| 07:20.00 | AAA_awright | ...people care about the work put out, only that it works. |
| 07:20.02 | AAA_awright | ...whoever is interested, without consideration, but it is my ideas, requests, projects, which despite repeated attempts to, cannot generate real conversation, or planning, cannot cannot find a home, or feedback, or support. There is an overall lack of consideration here. |
| 07:20.06 | AAA_awright | Good night. |
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| 07:26.48 | brlcad | AAA_awright: the mere fact that you're continuing being this defensive after hours of discussion is a strong symptom .. you you really feel that strongly that you have to have the last word in else it be a blow to your ego or something? |
| 07:28.10 | brlcad | again do with the information as you will, stating the obvious about what is in place doesn't change the nature of the past and current problems with you, and those problems were never claimed to be all you've ever done -- just the vast majority of interactions |
| 07:29.43 | brlcad | you bad-mouthing everything you don't like isn't constructive or helpful and really won't be tolerated for much longer, if you're not willing to work constructively then you really should just go |
| 07:30.16 | brlcad | otherwise you're just going to get your arrogant self banned |
| 07:37.56 | CIA-32 | BZFlag: 03dtremenak * r17116 10/trunk/bzflag/src/bzflag/playing.cxx: ws |
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| 07:52.25 | CIA-32 | BZFlag: 03dtremenak * r17117 10/trunk/bzflag/src/bzflag/playing.cxx: more ws. |
| 07:55.28 | CIA-32 | BZFlag: 03dtremenak * r17118 10/trunk/bzflag/src/bzflag/playing.cxx: |
| 07:55.28 | CIA-32 | BZFlag: don't issue continuous streams of comm error messages. more or less applies |
| 07:55.28 | CIA-32 | BZFlag: Bullet_Catcher's patch 1954911, but without setting serverDied (serverDied is |
| 07:55.28 | CIA-32 | BZFlag: explicitly for cases that don't trigger any other error messages...see comment |
| 07:55.28 | CIA-32 | BZFlag: on line 6599). fixes regression issue introduced by BufferedNetworkMessage. |
| 08:05.46 | BulletCatcher | The "Server has unexpectedly disconnected" message that follows setting serverDied seemed helpful in this case, but it certainly isn't necessary. Either way, I'm sure everyone will be happy to get just one "Server communication error" message. |
| 08:07.39 | DTRemenak|RDP | I dunno, seems a bit redundant to me :) but yeah, definitely only need one. good catch. |
| 08:08.27 | DTRemenak|RDP | and this way our behavior matches 2.0. inertia appeals to me (probably not a good thing)... |
| 08:11.41 | BulletCatcher | Hopefully, that message will be seen only rarely. If it were a common one there would be more benefit from going into detail about exactly what happened. |
| 08:12.13 | DTRemenak|RDP | yeah. actually it should never happen...it almost always indicates a bug. |
| 08:12.40 | BulletCatcher | It is easy to generate with a /shutdownserver command. |
| 08:13.00 | DTRemenak|RDP | hm, that should not be the case.../shutdownserver should send superkill, should it not? |
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| 08:13.33 | BulletCatcher | I think it should. Let me test again to be sure. |
| 08:15.56 | CIA-32 | BZFlag: 03dtremenak * r17119 10/trunk/bzflag/src/bzflag/ServerCommandKey.cxx: add missing emacs/vi formatting block. it is totally cool that I noticed this from visual studio. long live exTabSettings! |
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| 08:16.59 | BulletCatcher | I just confirmed that a /shutdownserver command results in a "Server communication error" message. I'll add that to my list of bugs to look at. |
| 08:17.29 | DTRemenak|RDP | yeah, it looks like it just bails from the main loop |
| 08:21.20 | CIA-32 | BZFlag: 03dtremenak * r17120 10/trunk/bzflag/src/bzfs/commands.cxx: ws |
| 08:24.03 | CIA-32 | BZFlag: 03dtremenak * r17121 10/trunk/bzflag/src/bzfs/bzfs.cxx: rm dead code |
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| 11:46.30 | donny_baker | ~brlcad++ |
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| 12:27.40 | catay | BulletCatcher: strange, I can reproduce it. Maybe it's some extra thingie in gdb i have enabled? |
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| 13:12.04 | TJ13820 | Does anyone know of a GUI for BZFS on linux? |
| 13:13.55 | catay | For configuration? |
| 13:14.43 | TJ13820 | yes, loading configs/worlds and putting them into a server environment |
| 13:14.56 | TJ13820 | and extra features are always welcomed |
| 13:15.10 | catay | i'm not aware something like that exists |
| 13:15.27 | TJ13820 | it does for windows. But for versions 1.7 - 1.11 |
| 13:15.41 | TJ13820 | i was hoping someone made something open source for linux |
| 13:15.56 | catay | bugq is gonna make a webgui through which you can manage bzfs |
| 13:16.15 | catay | it's his gsoc project iirc |
| 13:16.56 | TJ13820 | so, i would assume, i use a browser like firefox, and no compiling is necessary. It would be through java or otherwise? |
| 13:17.21 | Manu | TJ13820: http://bzflag.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/*checkout*/bzflag/branches/v2_0branch/bzflag/misc/bzfs_conf.html?revision=16194 |
| 13:18.01 | catay | http://my.bzflag.org/w/BZFWeb |
| 13:18.18 | catay | TJ13820: that describes what he is gonna make |
| 13:18.25 | catay | heya Manu :) |
| 13:18.32 | Manu | catay: click in my link ;) |
| 13:20.09 | TJ13820 | Manu: i have this already, thank you for the updated link :-) |
| 13:20.11 | catay | ah, i thought he meant somethign different |
| 13:20.55 | catay | i assumed he wanted a tool that made it easier to manage bzfs |
| 13:20.59 | TJ13820 | catat: exactly what i meant. i want a server management program, that i can use all around on the server instead of the terminal. Although i know it, i hate typing it over and over again |
| 13:21.03 | TJ13820 | catay* |
| 13:21.11 | Manu | TJ13820: patches welcome ;) |
| 13:21.32 | TJ13820 | Well, i'm going to build myself a Py menu for bzfs |
| 13:21.35 | catay | or wait till the gsoc thingie is done :) |
| 13:21.38 | TJ13820 | :-) |
| 13:22.18 | TJ13820 | well, as i really don't need to move between computers, and this is on linux, my own distro, i'll use a Python menu with integration to the start menu from applications |
| 13:22.51 | TJ13820 | just some object handlers, imput fields, and check boxes ;-) |
| 13:23.14 | Manu | like the bzfs configuration builder ;) |
| 13:25.34 | TJ13820 | well, but i want to include a way to load the world/config, bad word files, ban list, etc. And not have to use the terminal, but intead click "run server" to start it |
| 13:26.17 | Manu | TJ13820: probably this is good for your home computer, but what about a server in a data center? |
| 13:27.51 | TJ13820 | i have 4 servers all running together. One for IRC/FTP/Web One for Games One for DHCP/Firewall/REmote access forwarding One for applications/maitenance/backup |
| 13:28.40 | Manu | TJ13820: so you try to do a remote admin? |
| 13:28.50 | TJ13820 | they are all custom built on an Intel Quad Two Duo Chipset with ICH9 Mobo. 160GB HDD 7200RPM SATA each |
| 13:28.55 | TJ13820 | yes, i use remote admin |
| 13:29.04 | catay | if it's an x app you can run it on your remote server and display it on the local x server |
| 13:29.09 | TJ13820 | i can control any system from anywhere with an internet connection |
| 13:29.38 | TJ13820 | i just want to use a GUI instead of terminal. I don't want to use terminal for of all things, a game :-P |
| 13:29.43 | Manu | catay: of course, even you don't need X in the server ;) |
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| 13:29.51 | TJ13820 | nope |
| 13:30.02 | TJ13820 | i'm talking to you via text client on TTY6 |
| 13:30.07 | TJ13820 | :-P |
| 13:30.18 | Manu | TJ13820: your idea looks interesting, feel free to share with us when all is done ;) |
| 13:30.23 | catay | hehe |
| 13:30.40 | Manu | TJ13820: I'm using a text client too :-p |
| 13:30.57 | TJ13820 | i might even be able to throw in a twist of BZAdmin for logging |
| 13:31.02 | TJ13820 | 'twould be nice |
| 13:31.37 | catay | go for it :) |
| 13:31.37 | AHA | TJ13820, nice setup :D |
| 13:31.40 | AHA | wants to steal it |
| 13:31.43 | Manu | what GUI do you plan to use in the client side TJ13820 ? |
| 13:31.57 | TJ13820 | just a regular BZFlag gui. |
| 13:32.27 | TJ13820 | the server side gui will be an SSL client to connect to the remote terminal to run BZFS commands by clicking |
| 13:32.36 | Manu | in python? |
| 13:32.46 | TJ13820 | so all i have to do is imput my servers IP, and port, and click connect |
| 13:32.57 | TJ13820 | python will just make it look pretty. :-) |
| 13:33.17 | TJ13820 | give it a window, and menu's |
| 13:33.19 | Manu | I mean if you plan to use pygtk, pyqt... |
| 13:33.49 | TJ13820 | i'll just build the command list first |
| 13:33.58 | TJ13820 | i need to find a way to make it possible |
| 13:35.00 | Manu | TJ13820: dunno if you knew there was a pybzflag implementation ;) |
| 13:35.15 | Manu | but not for the 2.0 branch |
| 13:35.32 | TJ13820 | where? |
| 13:35.42 | TJ13820 | i'll bring it up to date |
| 13:35.49 | Manu | dunno if it's in the svn |
| 13:35.58 | Manu | it was years ago |
| 13:36.11 | catay | and it was fully functional ? |
| 13:36.26 | Manu | catay: I guess yes but dunno if fully |
| 13:36.50 | catay | nice |
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| 13:37.20 | Manu | probably brlcad recalls it |
| 13:37.29 | Manu | I don't :/ |
| 13:37.46 | TJ13820 | well, if it works... |
| 13:37.54 | TJ13820 | then i'll just make it more functional |
| 13:38.11 | Manu | IIRC it was for the 1.7 branch |
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| 13:39.09 | TJ13820 | they all seem to be for the 1.7 branch |
| 13:39.31 | Manu | TJ13820: read this topic -> http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?p=121191 |
| 13:39.39 | Manu | blast got it working |
| 13:39.56 | Manu | and here is the code: http://bzflag.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/bzflag/trunk/pybzflag/ |
| 13:41.47 | TJ13820 | nice |
| 13:43.55 | TJ13820 | 4 years old :-) |
| 13:44.00 | TJ13820 | that's okay |
| 13:44.06 | TJ13820 | it's a good way to start it off |
| 13:44.15 | Manu | now you have a toy to play ;) |
| 13:44.22 | ruskie | :) |
| 13:44.45 | TJ13820 | thanks much :-) |
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| 13:44.55 | ruskie | would be nice to see a generic all linux game launcher that would allow setting stuff and listing all available servers etc... without needing to go into each app |
| 13:44.58 | TJ13820 | when i get something finished, i'll let you know |
| 13:45.10 | Manu | TJ13820: thanks |
| 13:45.20 | TJ13820 | np |
| 13:45.31 | TJ13820 | if you'd like to help ... :-) |
| 13:45.45 | TJ13820 | well, i'm off to start coding XD |
| 13:45.53 | Manu | I also use python, but I'm a bit busy for now |
| 13:46.16 | Manu | for so big task ;) |
| 13:46.30 | Manu | TJ13820: have a nice coding |
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| 13:49.19 | TJ13820 | thanks much :-) |
| 13:50.11 | brlcad | it wasn't *fully* functional as in a replacement for the game client, but it was playable and even had some enhancements that the client didn't have |
| 13:50.26 | brlcad | it used the 1.7 protocol and is in svn |
| 13:51.15 | catay | ruskie: [dmp] is working on a bz game launcher i heard |
| 13:52.10 | ruskie | catay, well that is nice but I was more thinking completly generic... so that any net capable game or any other game could be launched from it... |
| 13:52.25 | catay | aah, some sort of gamespy ? |
| 13:53.00 | ruskie | well there used to be some tool on win32 that I used for counterstrike... |
| 13:53.17 | ruskie | it allowed listing of servers, see teams etc... on the server and then when wanted to also launch it |
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| 13:53.34 | ruskie | it also had support for other servers not only cs... |
| 13:54.04 | TJ13820 | now only if i could figure out which PY editor i like best......... |
| 13:54.14 | TJ13820 | i know, i'll just build my own |
| 13:54.17 | TJ13820 | lol |
| 13:55.13 | catay | TJ13820: looks like you gonna be very busy the coming months/years :P |
| 13:55.37 | TJ13820 | haha |
| 13:55.46 | ruskie | doesn't get it what's there to choose... there's only 2 editors that are worth anything... vim and emacs... |
| 13:56.01 | ahs3- | does anyone know of a way to allow the koth plugin to score like a ctf, with a team point for winning the hill? |
| 13:56.58 | Manu | TJ13820: I use Geany, enough for python |
| 13:57.54 | TJ13820 | Manu: now if i want to set an "OK" button to start the server, how would i use the handler? |
| 13:58.04 | TJ13820 | ...i forgot this problem might occur |
| 13:58.24 | TJ13820 | i need some way to link the imput fields to the server and eventually the "OK" button |
| 14:08.40 | TJ13820 | okay, i need to call the terminal but how in python? |
| 14:09.56 | ruskie | web search on howto do that? |
| 14:10.58 | TJ13820 | can't find it |
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| 14:49.58 | Rebel | 0_0 |
| 14:50.14 | Rebel | 0_0' |
| 14:50.22 | Winny | can we help you? |
| 14:50.29 | Rebel | 0)_(0 |
| 14:50.51 | blast007 | hello |
| 14:51.01 | Rebel | hey mein! |
| 14:51.13 | Rebel | forget what i just said |
| 14:51.21 | Rebel | so whats up? |
| 14:51.29 | blast007 | you didn't say much of anything yet |
| 14:51.34 | blast007 | what can we help you with? |
| 14:52.10 | Rebel | uhhh...im not being a snitch or anything but there is some really uneccessary tking going on in missle war |
| 14:52.41 | Winny | the go to the Missile War channel |
| 14:52.45 | Rebel | i known its being dealt with im just ya known ,ust wanna bring it up |
| 14:52.45 | Winny | like the server message says |
| 14:52.57 | AHA | no one has over 3tk's Rebel |
| 14:53.19 | Rebel | and i really appreciate donny for being reasponsible about the situation |
| 14:53.29 | Rebel | oh |
| 14:53.37 | blast007 | Winny: can the bzflag.bz CGI:IRC join your channel? |
| 14:53.47 | Rebel | i just finished over there about 30mins ago |
| 14:53.51 | Winny | blast007: we provide CGI:IRC on our site |
| 14:54.25 | Rebel | lol everyone was hating cause i use geno over and over again |
| 14:54.45 | blast007 | Winny: still, could be added to the list for .bz |
| 14:54.54 | Rebel | nsince im leader sometimes i be nice and none respect me but no problemo |
| 14:54.58 | blast007 | it already has #hepcat and #silvercat |
| 14:55.12 | Rebel | ack my typing is horrid |
| 14:56.20 | Rebel | winny sup -_- |
| 14:56.35 | Rebel | @_0 just got a black eye |
| 14:56.36 | Winny | the sky |
| 14:56.41 | Rebel | nlol |
| 14:57.12 | Rebel | well winny you play in game alot? |
| 14:57.24 | Winny | nope |
| 14:57.39 | Rebel | busy advertising for the bz web? |
| 14:57.39 | *** join/#bzflag twilight_account (n=412177d4@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 14:57.58 | Winny | huh? |
| 14:58.29 | Rebel | didnt you make a forum saying you put our wbe on digg.com |
| 14:58.34 | Rebel | ? |
| 14:59.01 | Rebel | (=D |
| 14:59.51 | Rebel | =-0--<B--< |
| 15:00.13 | Rebel | =o-B<--< |
| 15:00.20 | *** join/#bzflag spldart (n=vircuser@c-98-197-19-50.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) |
| 15:00.20 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v spldart] by ChanServ |
| 15:00.53 | Rebel | well ill b talking to donny about a couple of things me and him are workin on |
| 15:01.03 | spldart | chill out with the spam peeps |
| 15:02.03 | Winny | special |
| 15:02.09 | *** join/#bzflag dorfischer (n=598b0e96@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 15:03.22 | *** join/#bzflag think_tank (n=think_ta@unaffiliated/thinktank/x-168245) |
| 15:03.56 | dorfischer | hi all |
| 15:04.01 | blast007 | hi |
| 15:04.16 | Winny | bye |
| 15:04.54 | *** join/#bzflag wintest (n=63f0fb6c@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 15:04.59 | *** part/#bzflag wintest (n=63f0fb6c@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 15:05.05 | think_tank | typical |
| 15:05.33 | Winny | I was making sure ##bzflagr was joinable:p |
| 15:06.58 | *** join/#bzflag bz67 (n=598b0e96@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 15:08.28 | blast007 | hi bz67 |
| 15:33.50 | spldart | Anyone getting errors with ServerCommandKey in debug build linux? |
| 15:34.30 | catay | yup |
| 15:34.45 | catay | newline issue |
| 15:34.48 | catay | let me fix it |
| 15:35.09 | spldart | Ah.. just pastebined it too hehe |
| 15:35.43 | spldart | stupid spam on pastein.bzflag grrrr |
| 15:36.05 | spldart | http://pastebin.bzflag.bz/m10bb5385 |
| 15:39.20 | CIA-32 | BZFlag: 03catay * r17122 10/trunk/bzflag/src/bzflag/ServerCommandKey.cxx: Added newline at end of file. |
| 15:39.32 | catay | should work now |
| 15:39.42 | spldart | is trying already :) |
| 15:44.44 | spldart | builds fine now it would seem |
| 15:44.49 | spldart | thankies |
| 15:45.35 | catay | yay :) |
| 15:45.38 | catay | yw |
| 15:49.48 | *** join/#bzflag Owner (n=Owner@89-139-14-150.bb.netvision.net.il) |
| 15:50.01 | Owner | hi all! |
| 15:51.23 | donny_baker | welcome, glad you figured out how to connect with the client :) |
| 15:51.24 | catay | hi |
| 15:52.51 | Owner | yeeessss thanks "-) |
| 15:54.57 | *** join/#bzflag JeffM (n=Jeff@pool-71-109-218-124.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) |
| 15:58.44 | donny_baker | Owner: are you 'montey python' on the forums? |
| 15:58.54 | Owner | yes |
| 15:58.57 | Owner | abd |
| 15:59.00 | Owner | *and |
| 15:59.18 | Owner | i am trying to find the set geometry line in the config file |
| 15:59.51 | Owner | any suggestions? |
| 16:00.49 | JeffM | just throw away your config |
| 16:01.13 | donny_baker | delete this line also: set resolution |
| 16:01.44 | donny_baker | i have had this problem before also |
| 16:02.14 | Owner | so how do i find this line? |
| 16:02.21 | Owner | i tried to mark it |
| 16:02.28 | JeffM | simplest just to ditch the entire file |
| 16:03.34 | Owner | but that would delete my config file |
| 16:03.42 | donny_baker | yep.. jeff is right, if you delete the entire file it will recreate it |
| 16:03.45 | Owner | would that inflict my gameplay in any way? |
| 16:04.00 | JeffM | you'll have to set your options up again |
| 16:04.12 | Owner | o thats all?> |
| 16:04.12 | JeffM | we recreate the file on next run |
| 16:04.19 | JeffM | yead |
| 16:04.23 | JeffM | yea |
| 16:04.40 | Owner | automaticly? |
| 16:04.42 | Owner | thanks! |
| 16:04.47 | JeffM | yes |
| 16:04.49 | Owner | w8 |
| 16:04.51 | blast007 | it's like magic! |
| 16:05.00 | Owner | i reinstalled the game several times |
| 16:05.05 | Owner | and the problem stayed |
| 16:05.07 | JeffM | none of the stuff in the user profiles is installed, it's all runtime created. |
| 16:05.09 | blast007 | that does not delete your config file |
| 16:05.20 | blast007 | the problem is in your config file |
| 16:05.24 | JeffM | yeah the config is per user |
| 16:05.30 | JeffM | so we don't install it |
| 16:05.49 | JeffM | just throw away the "my bzflag files" folder that is in your my documents folder |
| 16:06.16 | Owner | o ok :-) |
| 16:06.24 | Owner | will see what happens |
| 16:09.35 | Owner | btw |
| 16:09.54 | Owner | in which folder (inside bzflag 10) can i find the file? |
| 16:10.06 | JeffM | the config? |
| 16:10.12 | JeffM | it's not part of the install |
| 16:10.21 | JeffM | it is in your my documents folder |
| 16:10.25 | JeffM | under my bzflag files |
| 16:10.25 | spldart | Hrm.. my windows debug trunk client, just built, f12 is broken.. Is that old news? |
| 16:11.35 | Owner | it's under 2.0? |
| 16:11.49 | Owner | (2.0 the folder) |
| 16:11.51 | JeffM | Owner: look and see |
| 16:12.01 | *** join/#bzflag hurt_ (n=Marzipan@84.119.64.248) |
| 16:12.06 | Owner | its a 6 kb file called config |
| 16:12.17 | JeffM | that'd be it |
| 16:12.31 | Owner | yeeeeesssssssssss it worked thank you sooo much! |
| 16:12.38 | Owner | no i can return to play |
| 16:12.44 | Owner | *now |
| 16:12.45 | JeffM | have fun |
| 16:12.49 | Owner | bb |
| 16:13.55 | hurt_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:13.55 | hurt_ | You remember that triangle map, with 2 teams. |
| 16:13.55 | hurt_ | Were the aim was that at least 50 % (i don't know the exact amount) of your team needed to be at one base for a cap. |
| 16:14.14 | hurt_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:14.19 | Winny | AHOD? |
| 16:14.44 | hurt_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:15.02 | catay | spldart: F12 is working here (but i'm on linux) |
| 16:15.08 | hurt_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 16:15.22 | spldart | works on linux here too |
| 16:15.53 | spldart | Also.. I can join current code bzfs with current code client in linux but I'm not getting past an accepted token in windows client.. very odd |
| 16:17.08 | catay | can't test on windows :( |
| 16:17.28 | catay | maybe i'll should install one in a vm for testing purposes |
| 16:17.31 | spldart | no prob... I'll test more later |
| 16:18.36 | spldart | I'm really feeling out of it right now anywho.. It's odd.. my body is ready to go do things but my brain feels stuck in the mud. I guess It's time to do some lawn work and chores :) |
| 16:18.57 | catay | hehe |
| 16:19.24 | catay | have fun :) |
| 16:30.06 | *** join/#bzflag TJ13820 (n=tim@c-71-206-201-73.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 16:39.28 | CIA-32 | BZFlag: 03catay * r17123 10/trunk/bzflag/include/ObstacleMgr.h: (log message trimmed) |
| 16:39.28 | CIA-32 | BZFlag: Accepted patch 1953923 from Bullet Catcher. |
| 16:39.28 | CIA-32 | BZFlag: This improves the fix in svn r17001 by directly using the ObstacleTypes |
| 16:39.28 | CIA-32 | BZFlag: enum type. This eliminates the error-prone extra effort required to |
| 16:39.28 | CIA-32 | BZFlag: duplicate the enum values with #define statements. |
| 16:39.28 | CIA-32 | BZFlag: It also adds a case for teleporters, which may need support in some future |
| 16:39.32 | CIA-32 | BZFlag: use of this group instance. For tidiness, the code positions of the base |
| 16:40.29 | JeffM | porters never need tangability |
| 16:40.34 | JeffM | since they are special |
| 16:42.05 | JeffM | and it'd be stupid to use them as doors ;) |
| 16:42.38 | catay | ok :) |
| 16:42.56 | catay | i'll remove the porters case |
| 16:43.32 | JeffM | it can be there, we should just not to never do it |
| 16:43.39 | *** join/#bzflag javawizard2539 (n=javawiza@c-24-10-227-207.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 16:45.58 | catay | ok. I'll leave it in then :) |
| 16:50.58 | BulletCatcher | To prevent warnings there needs to be a case in the switch statement for teleporters. It's just as easy to leave it implemented. |
| 16:52.09 | *** join/#bzflag TD-Linux (n=wheeeeee@about/essy/indecisive/TD-Linux) |
| 16:52.30 | BulletCatcher | ... which I see you are doing, now that I read more carefully. |
| 16:52.44 | catay | BulletCatcher: yup :p |
| 16:53.54 | BulletCatcher | hurt_: The "All Hands On Deck" map is by trepan. See http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?t=6449 . You could contact him directly to see if he wants to let you host it. |
| 16:54.55 | BulletCatcher | catay: Any ideas on what else I could do to reproduce your SIGPIPE? |
| 16:55.20 | catay | no idea |
| 16:55.25 | catay | what distro do you use? |
| 16:55.26 | *** part/#bzflag TJ13820 (n=tim@c-71-206-201-73.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 16:55.44 | BulletCatcher | I run 64-bit Fedora 8. |
| 16:56.13 | catay | BulletCatcher: http://www.sammiller.org/?p=4 |
| 16:56.20 | catay | seems you can ignore them with gdb |
| 16:56.25 | catay | or not ignore them |
| 16:56.30 | catay | i'm on ubuntu |
| 16:57.34 | *** join/#bzflag Think_Differentl (n=shedelj@unaffiliated/thinkdifferentl/x-838543) |
| 16:58.14 | BulletCatcher | Ah. I'll try a "handle SIGPIPE stop" command in gdb and see if that makes a difference. |
| 17:00.23 | BulletCatcher | Actually, a "handle SIGPIPE" gdb command already shows "Yes" for all 3 commands. |
| 17:00.44 | BulletCatcher | *for all 3 actions. |
| 17:01.19 | catay | same here |
| 17:01.41 | catay | pretty strange |
| 17:02.01 | BulletCatcher | Are you 32-bit or 64-bit? |
| 17:02.16 | catay | 32bit |
| 17:02.50 | BulletCatcher | That *could* matter, but I doubt it in this case. |
| 17:02.58 | catay | but flash said earlier it's not really a problem |
| 17:03.20 | catay | it's because the process on the receiving end is gone |
| 17:03.41 | catay | i'll get it also on a 'commincation error' with the client for example |
| 17:03.50 | *** join/#bzflag bryjen (n=bryjen@CPE-76-177-176-191.natsoe.res.rr.com) |
| 17:03.50 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v bryjen] by ChanServ |
| 17:04.04 | *** join/#bzflag Epyon (n=Epyon@90-156-93-82.magma-net.pl) |
| 17:05.34 | BulletCatcher | If it only shows up when running in gdb it won't affect production servers, but I'm with you that it ought to be something we can track down and prevent. |
| 17:08.43 | catay | yes, i think in some cases it can be prevented |
| 17:09.34 | BulletCatcher | In the escape->join sequence, for example. |
| 17:13.27 | catay | BulletCatcher: yeah, it's because of removePlayer in bzfs.cxx |
| 17:13.59 | catay | BulletCatcher: the nethandler of that player is still getting used after the connection is gone |
| 17:14.24 | catay | BulletCatcher: in the teamupdate broadcast, and that causes the SIGPIPE on bzfs end |
| 17:16.14 | BulletCatcher | stares at the code |
| 17:18.07 | catay | sendTeamUpdateMessageBroadcast line 2377 bzfs.cxx |
| 17:20.18 | catay | that also still tries to send it to the removed player his nethandler itself |
| 17:21.26 | catay | possible solution is to place a netConnections.remove(playerData->nethandler) in removePlayer |
| 17:21.27 | CIA-32 | FTGL: 03brlcad * r1026 10/trunk/m4/gl.m4: have to quote the AC_MSG_ERROR else the exit code is screwed up |
| 17:21.39 | catay | but thats probably ugly |
| 17:22.01 | catay | foodtime |
| 17:22.21 | BulletCatcher | I'll continue to look while you eat. |
| 17:23.15 | BulletCatcher | Try the "ugly" solution to see if it really works. If it does, then we can look for something more elegant. |
| 17:32.20 | hurt_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:32.39 | BulletCatcher | ~seen trepan |
| 17:32.42 | ibot | trepan <n=trepan@unaffiliated/trepan> was last seen on IRC in channel #bzflag, 142d 13h 28m 52s ago, saying: '"By default, the free-for-all style is used."'. |
| 17:32.53 | hurt_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:33.16 | BulletCatcher | You could try sending him a PM on the BZFlag forum. |
| 17:33.32 | hurt_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:33.37 | hurt_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:33.56 | hurt_ | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:36.49 | BulletCatcher | No other ideas, sorry. my.bzflag.org shows trepan was last seen playing in February. |
| 17:40.57 | catay | marzipan: trepan allowed OpenLeague back then to use the ahod map iirc |
| 17:41.30 | catay | marzipan: and we wrote also some buggy plugin that mimiced trepan his ahod bzfs mod |
| 17:42.24 | catay | marzipan: ask brad for the source code, he should still have it somwhere |
| 17:49.42 | blast007 | ah, 'ahod', that's what it was called |
| 17:50.07 | blast007 | I might even have that bzfs patch somewhere |
| 17:52.58 | BulletCatcher | argh. I am trying to follow the source code, but have lost the trail at src/common/BufferedNetworkMessage.cxx line 370. Where is the implemtation of outgoingQueue.push_back() on that line? |
| 17:55.18 | *** join/#bzflag bryjen_ (n=bryjen@CPE-76-177-176-191.natsoe.res.rr.com) |
| 17:55.47 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v bryjen] by ChanServ |
| 18:00.27 | *** join/#bzflag noyb (n=noyb@pool-71-119-173-104.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) |
| 18:01.02 | Flash | wow. Looks like it was a busy night. Wish I could have stayed |
| 18:02.27 | AAA_awright | No kidding. |
| 18:03.01 | Flash | AAA_awright: would you believe that both sides are right? |
| 18:03.10 | catay | BulletCatcher: http://catay.be/public/pipefix.patch |
| 18:03.11 | AAA_awright | Yes. |
| 18:03.15 | *** join/#bzflag bryjen (n=bryjen@CPE-76-177-176-191.natsoe.res.rr.com) |
| 18:03.15 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v bryjen] by ChanServ |
| 18:03.52 | catay | BulletCatcher: yeah, it took me days with gdb to get a grasp of the flow :) |
| 18:03.53 | Flash | catay: I don't think so |
| 18:04.21 | Flash | the .deleteMe = true above is supposed to trigger the ultimate cleanup |
| 18:04.22 | catay | Flash: it works here, but i agree thats probably not a good fix |
| 18:04.31 | Flash | it introduces a memory leak |
| 18:04.40 | marzipan | <PROTECTED> |
| 18:05.18 | catay | Flash: i rather would implement jeffm his suggestion with the reference counting stuff the said |
| 18:05.32 | Flash | are you working on that? |
| 18:05.38 | catay | but don't know the code well enough to do that |
| 18:05.42 | Flash | because I was playing with refactoring the NetHandler |
| 18:05.54 | catay | well, go for it :) |
| 18:06.41 | catay | BulletCatcher: the outgoingQueue is part of the BufferedNetworkManager |
| 18:07.06 | BulletCatcher | For the record, gdb helped me find the implementation of std::deque in /usr/include/c++/4.1.2/bits/stl_deque.h . |
| 18:07.37 | catay | and the update method of BufferedNetworkManager gets called in the main loop in bzfs.cxx |
| 18:07.59 | catay | and from every message in the queue it calls the process() method |
| 18:14.32 | BulletCatcher | Would BufferedNetworkMessageManager::purgeMessages() do the job? |
| 18:15.06 | BulletCatcher | Instead of NetHandler::netConnections.remove() ? |
| 18:17.11 | catay | no idea |
| 18:17.28 | catay | i wrote a flushMessages to flush the pending messages to the player before it was removed |
| 18:17.58 | BulletCatcher | Okay, then in theory purgeMessages() would have nothing to do at that point. |
| 18:17.58 | catay | otherwise the removed player never received the ban message when he was banned |
| 18:18.34 | catay | i think it has no connnection with the netConnections list |
| 18:18.56 | Flash | the netConnections list (on the server) is a meta-data wrapper around the NetHandler |
| 18:20.22 | Flash | (note to self: save all buffers before doing "svn up") |
| 18:21.33 | *** join/#bzflag DTRemenak|RDP (i=DTRemena@about/essy/CrazyCoder/DTRemenak) |
| 18:21.33 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v DTRemenak|RDP] by ChanServ |
| 18:22.04 | catay | we also could check in pwriteBroadcast if a nethandler is flaged for cleanup or not |
| 18:22.31 | catay | if it's flaged , ignore it |
| 18:23.07 | catay | pwriteBroadcast line 292 in bzfs.cxx |
| 18:23.32 | Flash | yeah, I am checking that (I made it private to see who complained) |
| 18:23.38 | Flash | I don't think anyone missed it |
| 18:23.45 | catay | but i have always the feeling thats just patching stuff up and doesn't tackle the global issue :) |
| 18:24.05 | Flash | one uses the tools at one's dispossal |
| 18:24.39 | *** join/#bzflag Constitution (n=const@unaffiliated/macsforme) |
| 18:25.02 | Flash | oh, wrong line |
| 18:25.19 | Flash | pwriteBroadcast is where the SIGPIPE is handled (more or less gracefully) |
| 18:25.34 | catay | yup |
| 18:26.42 | BulletCatcher | So is the issue that when gdb is running the SIGPIPE does not get caught for pwriteBroadcast() to handle? |
| 18:27.17 | catay | it gets caught when i run it in gdb |
| 18:27.45 | Flash | ah... the schizophrenia is clear |
| 18:27.46 | catay | so .. actually it's not an issue the SIGPIPE ... |
| 18:27.54 | catay | omg :p |
| 18:28.02 | Flash | most of bzfs uses NetConnectedPeer (which has the "deleteMe" metadata) |
| 18:28.13 | Flash | but pwriteBroadcast uses NetHandler directly |
| 18:28.17 | Flash | I will fix that |
| 18:28.22 | BulletCatcher | woot |
| 18:28.51 | Flash | the NetConnectedPeer has the deleteMe member that could/should be used to quell I/O (as in pwriteBroadcast) |
| 18:29.51 | Flash | actually, I've suspected that all the net send/receive methods in bzfs need to be abstracted into a Net interface |
| 18:30.28 | catay | wouldn't it be nicer to check on the deleteMe member and when it's true simply don't try to write to it? |
| 18:30.43 | Flash | yes, I thought that's what I said |
| 18:30.52 | catay | ah ok , nvm then :) |
| 18:31.32 | BulletCatcher | I see no sign of pwriteBroadcast() usage anywhere but in bzfs.cxx, so you shouldn't have to worry about side effects of such a change. |
| 18:32.22 | *** part/#bzflag marzipan (n=Marzipan@84.119.64.248) |
| 18:32.40 | catay | it'sit gets used in the BZFSNetworkMessageTransferCallback |
| 18:52.22 | *** join/#bzflag Dessy (n=Dessy@88-134-204-43-dynip.superkabel.de) |
| 18:54.55 | CIA-32 | BZFlag: 03dtremenak * r17124 10/trunk/bzflag/src/bzfs/ (RecordReplay.cxx bzfs.cxx bzfs.h bzfsClientMessages.cxx): |
| 18:54.55 | CIA-32 | BZFlag: Simplify handling of MsgGameSettings and make it correctly use a |
| 18:54.55 | CIA-32 | BZFlag: BufferedNetworkMessage. bzfs.h no longer needs to export bz_pwrite or |
| 18:54.55 | CIA-32 | BZFlag: broadcastPwrite. We really only keep the worldSettings cache around for |
| 18:54.57 | CIA-32 | BZFlag: RecordReplay now; eventually it should probably be gotten rid of entirely. |
| 19:10.20 | *** join/#bzflag bier_ (n=bier@p54A5474E.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 19:34.18 | CIA-32 | BZFlag: 03dtremenak * r17125 10/trunk/bzflag/src/ (9 files in 5 dirs): |
| 19:34.18 | CIA-32 | BZFlag: Welcome to protocol 0061! Globally simplify handling of MsgSetVars; use |
| 19:34.18 | CIA-32 | BZFlag: [un]packStdString since we have it now. Rewrite PackVars correspondingly, and |
| 19:34.18 | CIA-32 | BZFlag: use BufferedNetworkMessage. Remove the very last use of directMessageBuffer, |
| 19:34.18 | CIA-32 | BZFlag: and blow away the last vestiges of that abomination also. |
| 19:34.20 | CIA-32 | BZFlag: Needs testing. |
| 19:37.04 | Flash | DTRemenak: could you perhaps apply my MsgStrings patch? Your last commit creates a conflict in it |
| 19:37.17 | CIA-32 | BZFlag: 03dtremenak * r17126 10/trunk/bzflag/src/bzfs/ (bzfs.cxx bzfs.h): remove dead code. bzfs no longer directly relays packets. |
| 19:37.25 | DTRemenak | sure, I'll look at it. |
| 19:38.20 | DTRemenak | woot! the only remaining clients for direct network writes are the transfer callback and removePlayer! |
| 19:38.47 | DTRemenak | feels better now |
| 19:39.12 | Flash | I'm not 100% sure why removePlayer needs to do direct write |
| 19:39.18 | DTRemenak | neither am I |
| 19:39.27 | DTRemenak | I think it could send a normal message, then flush |
| 19:39.41 | Flash | yeah, what I was trying to type |
| 19:40.02 | DTRemenak | then everything else could be wrapped up in the transfer callback |
| 19:40.08 | DTRemenak | and we'd be all cleaned up :) |
| 19:41.15 | Flash | well.... bzfs is still a bit of an abomination |
| 19:41.19 | DTRemenak | heh |
| 19:41.27 | DTRemenak | I meant in THAT respect :) |
| 19:41.47 | DTRemenak | there's still plenty of abominable code around, no question there |
| 19:47.09 | Flash | bzfsMessages.cxx:1066 perhaps "unsigned int pairLen...." |
| 19:49.20 | CIA-32 | BZFlag: 03dtremenak * r17127 10/trunk/bzflag/src/game/MsgStrings.cxx: Accept patch #1953119 from Flash (Jim Melton). Update MsgStrings for current protocol. |
| 19:51.39 | DTRemenak | hm, this is gonna cause a boatload of warnings for gcc most likely. should be fun. |
| 19:51.49 | *** join/#bzflag Paul_PL (n=pawelbl6@chello087206115169.chello.pl) |
| 19:52.11 | CIA-32 | BZFlag: 03dtremenak * r17128 10/trunk/bzflag/include/Protocol.h: doesn't make sense for MaxPacketLen to ever be negative, mark it as unsigned. |
| 19:52.56 | CIA-32 | BZFlag: 03dtremenak * r17129 10/trunk/bzflag/src/bzfs/bzfsMessages.cxx: sums of lengths should use size_t. |
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| 20:04.08 | catay | ~DTRemenak++ |
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| 20:09.42 | bryjen | grrrr |
| 20:10.00 | Flash | catay: there's a temporary fix for you https://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1956885&group_id=3248&atid=303248 |
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| 20:36.07 | CIA-32 | BZFlag: 03catay * r17130 10/trunk/bzflag/src/ (bzadmin/BZAdminClient.cxx bzflag/ServerLink.h): |
| 20:36.07 | CIA-32 | BZFlag: Make it build again with --enable-debug. |
| 20:36.07 | CIA-32 | BZFlag: * make previousFill also unsigned |
| 20:36.07 | CIA-32 | BZFlag: * removed shadow declaration |
| 20:36.32 | CIA-32 | BZFlag: 03dtremenak * r17131 10/trunk/bzflag/ (6 files in 6 dirs): accept patch 1954989 from bullet_catcher - build system one-liners |
| 20:37.29 | catay | Flash: cool, i'll look at it |
| 20:39.02 | DTRemenak | ~catay++ |
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| 21:06.55 | BulletCatcher | Flash, there is a minor problem in your SF patch 1956885. |
| 21:06.57 | BulletCatcher | In bz_pwrite() you declare "int result" twice. It looks like the second one, on patched bzfs.cxx line 283, should have the "int" declaration removed. |
| 21:07.53 | CIA-32 | BZFlag: 03dtremenak * r17132 10/trunk/bzflag/src/date/buildDate.cxx: more or less accept patch 1944622 from bugQ (better getBuildDate impl), with modifications made for readability and no caching (getAppVersion is already cached). |
| 21:21.55 | Flash | BulletCatcher: thanks. that will make a difference |
| 21:23.02 | Flash | updated patch uploaded |
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| 21:37.09 | *** join/#bzflag JeffM (n=Jeff@pool-71-109-218-124.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) |
| 21:37.50 | JeffM | DTRemenak: I need a welding torch |
| 21:38.07 | DTRemenak | JeffM: don't have one handy, sorry |
| 21:38.15 | JeffM | I know |
| 21:38.26 | DTRemenak | heh |
| 21:38.56 | JeffM | I'm just saying |
| 21:39.02 | JeffM | Best movie this year |
| 21:39.07 | *** join/#bzflag Ride- (n=Ride-@24-197-250-9.dhcp.stpt.wi.charter.com) |
| 21:39.16 | JeffM | best comic book adaption, EVER |
| 21:39.21 | DTRemenak | heh |
| 21:39.55 | JeffM | the trailer for Indy 4 looks good too |
| 21:40.02 | DTRemenak | cool |
| 21:40.41 | JeffM | I have to give props to the special effets guys in iron man, they made a suit that is incredebly belivable |
| 21:40.56 | JeffM | no transformers "magic" fold out metal or anythin |
| 21:41.53 | DTRemenak | I reworked the worldsettings and setvars stuff...now the only place we do direct network writes on the server is from the transfer callback (and during removeplayer) :) |
| 21:42.00 | DTRemenak | directmessagebuffer is dead and gone |
| 21:42.03 | JeffM | cool |
| 21:42.09 | JeffM | as it should be |
| 21:42.13 | DTRemenak | indeed |
| 21:42.39 | DTRemenak | and bz_pwrite and pwriteBroadcast are now private to bzfs.cxx |
| 21:42.56 | DTRemenak | and everything got...shorter :) |
| 21:43.13 | JeffM | yay for refactoring :) |
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| 22:03.12 | *** join/#bzflag Viza (i=viza@nylug/member/Viza) |
| 22:03.43 | Viza | any admins for fox burrow here? |
| 22:05.11 | Viza | nevermind, poll ban got the cheater |
| 22:05.26 | Viza | for future reference, the name was "Fack ye!" |
| 22:07.13 | Flash | he's been there (and poll banned) before |
| 22:07.23 | Flash | unfortunately, it's only for 5 hours |
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| 22:07.39 | Viza | nods |
| 22:07.58 | Viza | ThatTallGuy left, and he's like "ok admin gone, time to cheat" |
| 22:10.13 | whodaman- | Viza, I'll look into it |
| 22:10.18 | whodaman- | thanks for letting us know |
| 22:11.07 | Viza | np |
| 22:21.46 | BulletCatcher | r17132 + Flash's revised patch == no regressions for me. We'll probably have to wait until tomorrow to hear whether it makes a difference for catay. |
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| 22:36.09 | catay | BulletCatcher: i'll test it right away :) |
| 22:45.51 | L4m3r | "/dev/hda2 has gone 49708 days without being checked. Check forced." |
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| 22:51.05 | BulletCatcher | Wow. A "date -d '-49708 days' +%Y" command correctly reports the year 1872. |
| 22:51.11 | BulletCatcher | That partition really is long overdue for a fsck! ;-) |
| 22:51.41 | Flash | someone was ahead of their time |
| 22:52.20 | BulletCatcher | Well, if it was *never* checked then any number is as good as another. |
| 22:53.19 | BulletCatcher | Maybe it belonged to Lady Ada Lovelace. |
| 22:54.22 | Flash | DTRemenak: are you there? |
| 22:54.32 | catay | Flash: seems to work here |
| 22:54.43 | Flash | yeah, it's a reasonable hack |
| 22:55.07 | catay | maybe the std::cout should be changed with a logdebugmessage |
| 22:55.16 | Flash | I don't expect that to stay |
| 22:55.19 | DTRemenak | Flash: yeah |
| 22:55.58 | Flash | DTRemenak: I'm looking at BufferedNetworkMessageManager, and I'm curious about the scope/ownership of the BufferedNetworkMessages in the queue |
| 22:56.27 | Flash | in particular, it seems like 'queueMessage' should make a copy of the passed message, rather than assume it was heap allocated |
| 22:57.49 | Flash | I was also wondering about why the check to see if a message is already in the queue |
| 22:58.06 | *** join/#bzflag bz67 (n=43f0ea93@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 22:58.13 | Flash | I would think that if it was in the queue, you should just ignore the new attempt, rather than push to the back |
| 22:58.18 | Flash | but how is that possible? |
| 22:58.30 | bz67 | 67.240.234.147 |
| 22:59.27 | DTRemenak | Flash: I don't know how that can happen :) |
| 22:59.47 | catay | hi bz67 , what's sup :) |
| 22:59.50 | DTRemenak | not sure why the check is there honestly. guess a caller could keep a copy around and try to send it more than once. |
| 23:00.08 | DTRemenak | we can't keep multiple copies in the queue because we delete them |
| 23:00.33 | Flash | right, but ignoring the second attempt would seem better than pushing to the back of the queue |
| 23:00.51 | Flash | on the other hand, if the act of queuing made a copy, it would always be safe |
| 23:00.57 | DTRemenak | hm, actually what are you looking at? queueMessage? |
| 23:01.03 | Flash | yes |
| 23:01.06 | DTRemenak | queueMessage just moves it from pending to outgoing |
| 23:01.20 | Flash | doh |
| 23:01.22 | Flash | nm |
| 23:01.28 | DTRemenak | when you create a message it gets shoved in pending |
| 23:01.37 | DTRemenak | yeah, gotta love the names :) |
| 23:02.13 | DTRemenak | better still, sendPendingMessages sends from the outgoing queue, not the pending queue :) |
| 23:02.13 | Flash | ok, newMessage DOES create the copy |
| 23:02.21 | catay | hehe |
| 23:02.56 | DTRemenak | yeah, newmessage creates a new message, either blank or from a copy |
| 23:03.51 | Flash | I'm actually looking at every place NetHandler is used, and trying to validate if it should be |
| 23:04.04 | Flash | so I was looking at send/broadcast |
| 23:06.43 | Flash | what's the pending queue for exactly? |
| 23:07.03 | DTRemenak | ehm...good question, was just trying to figure that out meself :) |
| 23:07.42 | *** join/#bzflag bz22 (n=43f0ea93@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 23:08.13 | DTRemenak | I think it has to do with not leaking or crashing during a disconnect, but I'm not quite sure how |
| 23:08.49 | Flash | newMessage adds to the pending queue, and queueMessage removes (besides the cleanup stuff) |
| 23:09.01 | DTRemenak | yeah |
| 23:09.19 | Flash | so is the purpose that everyone call newMessage, instead of creating BufferedNetworkMessage objects directly? |
| 23:09.33 | DTRemenak | yes, everyone should be using newMessage |
| 23:09.41 | Flash | if so, shouldn't the BufferedNetworkMessage ctor be protected? |
| 23:10.12 | DTRemenak | if it's properly friended, that would make sense |
| 23:10.24 | Flash | looks like it already is |
| 23:11.11 | Flash | I have a dream of creating classes for all network messages. BufferedNetworkMessage would be the ideal base class. But the newMessage interface might complicate that |
| 23:13.24 | DTRemenak | just templatize NewMessage :) |
| 23:14.35 | Flash | a quick grep looks like no one is instantiating BufferedNetworkMessage directly; time to let the compiler work |
| 23:14.45 | DTRemenak | totally ahead of ya :) |
| 23:15.52 | CIA-32 | BZFlag: 03dtremenak * r17133 10/trunk/bzflag/include/BufferedNetworkMessage.h: protect BufferedNetworkMessage c'tor. net messages should be created with MSGMGR->newMessage. |
| 23:16.07 | Flash | so I guess that's a yes ;-) |
| 23:16.19 | DTRemenak | hehe |
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| 23:19.41 | CIA-32 | BZFlag: 03dtremenak * r17134 10/trunk/bzflag/ (2 files in 2 dirs): provide for derived classes from BufferedNetworkMessage via templatizing MSGMGR->newMessage. |
| 23:19.47 | DTRemenak | Flash: see if that resolves the obstacles for your dream |
| 23:20.55 | Flash | should work |
| 23:21.10 | Flash | although it might not be required |
| 23:21.27 | Flash | a virtual "clone" method on BufferedNetworkMessage would do the trick |
| 23:22.05 | DTRemenak | you need some way to instantiate the first one from your derived class |
| 23:22.31 | Flash | ok, I'll worry about that when/if I get around to fulfilling dreams |
| 23:22.40 | DTRemenak | I think this is the cleanest way to handle it. always open to suggestions though :) |
| 23:23.44 | Flash | the thing that gives me pause is that T can only be derived from BufferedNetworkMessage, and that interface doesn't enforce that |
| 23:23.54 | DTRemenak | that is true |
| 23:24.09 | DTRemenak | 'twill act funky if you try to use some other T :) |
| 23:24.46 | Flash | do all of our platforms handle template member functions properly? |
| 23:24.51 | DTRemenak | yeah |
| 23:24.54 | Flash | cool |
| 23:24.57 | DTRemenak | I think we use them elsewhere |
| 23:25.04 | DTRemenak | bzdb maybe |
| 23:25.04 | Flash | welcome to the 90's |
| 23:25.09 | DTRemenak | yeah, no kidding :) |
| 23:25.26 | Flash | I still get surprised whenever I see malloc/free |
| 23:26.14 | *** part/#bzflag BulletCatcher (n=bc@unaffiliated/bulletcatcher) |
| 23:26.16 | CIA-32 | BZFlag: 03dtremenak * r17135 10/trunk/bzflag/src/common/BufferedNetworkMessage.cxx: not entirely sure how that compiled |
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| 23:27.38 | Flash | any reason why NetMsg is a #define instead of a typedef? |
| 23:27.48 | bz15 | ~bzfquery kylethedude1.webhop.net:5154 |
| 23:28.21 | DTRemenak | not that I'm aware of. got a convincing reason to change it? |
| 23:28.38 | Flash | typedef's are generally evil... not type-safe, etc. |
| 23:28.48 | Flash | nothing that will cause the earth to stop rotating |
| 23:30.27 | CIA-32 | BZFlag: 03dtremenak * r17136 10/trunk/bzflag/include/BufferedNetworkMessage.h: typedef > #define |
| 23:30.40 | DTRemenak | meh, works for me :) just hope there wasn't some reason it was like that :) |
| 23:31.04 | Flash | oh.... your template method body should probably be in the header, not the source |
| 23:31.32 | Flash | at least, on the Sun compiler, the .cxx will be brought into every compilation unit to satify the need of the template |
| 23:31.47 | DTRemenak | heh. that's pretty bogus :) |
| 23:33.38 | Flash | I don't know how gcc does template instantiation |
| 23:34.05 | DTRemenak | pokes a few inline keywords in too, hope that doesn't make anything go nuts |
| 23:36.11 | CIA-32 | BZFlag: 03dtremenak * r17137 10/trunk/bzflag/ (2 files in 2 dirs): as per Flash's suggestion, template method body goes into the header to avoid pissing off sunwpro |
| 23:38.46 | Flash | when I get to working on my dream, I'll need factory methods for each message; those may very well belong in the BufferedNetworkMessageManager class anyway ;-) |
| 23:39.32 | AAA_awright | DTRemenak, anyone: What is your position on letting BZFlag connect to outside servers without user permission/interaction? I am assuming it is all right, because BZFlag already does it on startup, with the MoTD, etc. |
| 23:39.32 | JeffM | Flash: at some point that becomes more complex then a single function that just packs some data |
| 23:39.37 | DTRemenak | not sure why you'd need factories...unless you're thinking something more exotic than I am :) |
| 23:39.59 | JeffM | yeah sounds rather complex |
| 23:40.14 | Flash | JeffM: the factory probably is the function that does the packing |
| 23:40.24 | JeffM | then why is it a factory? |
| 23:40.37 | Flash | because the ctor is protected ;-) |
| 23:40.45 | DTRemenak | AAA_awright: connecting to project servers when available is ok. like you said, it already does for motd, etc. |
| 23:40.53 | CIA-32 | FTGL: 03brlcad * r1027 10/trunk/configure.ac: use AC_PATH_PROG instead of PKG_CHECK_MODULES to keep the versions to a minimum |
| 23:41.05 | JeffM | Flash: I don't think that makes it a factory |
| 23:41.29 | Flash | a factory creates other objects, no? |
| 23:41.44 | JeffM | in general yes, but not all things that create ojbects are factories :) |
| 23:41.54 | JeffM | lay out your design before you implment it |
| 23:42.00 | Flash | of course |
| 23:42.02 | JeffM | and firstly.. fix bugs |
| 23:42.07 | DTRemenak | Flash: I don't see what advantage that has over MyMsg msg = MSGMGR->newMessage<MyMsg>; msg->pack(allMyStuff); |
| 23:43.00 | Flash | DTRemenak: yeah, that could work |
| 23:43.04 | JeffM | Flash: remember it's object ORIENTED, not object OBSESSED |
| 23:43.09 | DTRemenak | heh |
| 23:43.34 | DTRemenak | Flash: and that way, MSGMGR doesn't need to know any details about the derived classes |
| 23:43.48 | DTRemenak | which is a big plus imho |
| 23:43.52 | JeffM | and that's a good thing, it just manages data blobs |
| 23:43.53 | Flash | agreed |
| 23:44.32 | Flash | my goal is to totally encapsulate knowledge of message details in a single place (class) for both packing and unpacking |
| 23:44.54 | JeffM | right now on the server it should be a whoping 2 |
| 23:45.01 | JeffM | one for pack and one for unpack |
| 23:45.10 | DTRemenak | I believe others have shared similar sentiments, so you'll have some support there. |
| 23:45.30 | Flash | JeffM: it looks like bzfsAPI is chock full of message packing details |
| 23:45.50 | JeffM | Flash: then those should call the same packing fuctions that the server uses. |
| 23:46.17 | Flash | at a low level, yes, but there's calls to msg->packUShort() etc that should be hidden |
| 23:46.24 | AAA_awright | In 3.0/2.1/2.99 (what should I call it now?) you can ping 3rd party servers. Upon filling out the server or port fields, or pressing enter on the Find Server menu, could you ping the server for team data, which teams have a max player count of >0 so you can remove the teams not available? |
| 23:47.37 | Flash | AAA_awright: what about if the server auto-team fills? |
| 23:47.47 | Flash | I always leave my team on Rogue |
| 23:47.56 | Flash | and I get joined to a team for CTF |
| 23:48.05 | DTRemenak | JeffM: basically what Flash is suggesting is that instead of e.g. broadcastPlayerScoreUpdate calling NetMsg msg = MSGMGR.newMessage; msg->packThis(); msg->packThat();, msg->broadcast(MsgScore)it should call ScoreMsg msg = MSGMGR.newMessage<ScoreMsg>(); msg->broadcast(); |
| 23:48.18 | DTRemenak | and be done with it |
| 23:48.57 | Flash | basically; you still need to provide the field data of the message, but that varies on a message by message case |
| 23:49.03 | DTRemenak | so people changing particular packets don't have to dig through multiple places in the code to do so |
| 23:49.14 | Flash | also, you could check that a message was validly constructed before allowing it to be queued |
| 23:49.41 | DTRemenak | some messages send global data, so you wouldn't need to provide it |
| 23:49.59 | blast007 | AAA_awright: or, just move the team selection until after the connect |
| 23:50.00 | DTRemenak | scoreupdate is an example...all you need is the ID, the packer can look up the actual scores. |
| 23:50.29 | AAA_awright | blast007: I don't even consider that an option. I am trying to improve upon your idea though |
| 23:50.34 | blast007 | AAA_awright: go play Team Fortress 2 |
| 23:51.15 | DTRemenak | team selection after connect is an option. at some point we'd definitely like to have people able to minimally go to/from observer mid-battle |
| 23:51.36 | AAA_awright | DTRemenak: Did you read my idea for switching teams? |
| 23:51.44 | DTRemenak | nope, didn't realize you had one |
| 23:52.20 | AAA_awright | Ah, well about three days ago I was talking with JeffM about getting a token from the server to speed up authentication, if you are just re-connecting to switch teams |
| 23:52.41 | AAA_awright | He brought up the MsgTeam packet, and I thought wouldn't it be neat if you could run it in reverse |
| 23:52.53 | blast007 | "token from the server" what server? |
| 23:53.02 | AAA_awright | The server you are connected to, sorrt |
| 23:53.08 | blast007 | you don't get a token from the server |
| 23:53.15 | blast007 | you get it from the list server |
| 23:53.23 | DTRemenak | game server, presumably...server knows you're authed, hands you a token that you can hand back to say "hey I was authed before, just give me it back" |
| 23:53.27 | AAA_awright | Well I dismissed it as a bad idea abyeays |
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| 23:53.37 | AAA_awright | DTRemenak: Exactly |
| 23:53.37 | DTRemenak | like getting your hand stamped upon leaving the fairgrounds :) |
| 23:53.40 | AAA_awright | But that isn't it |
| 23:53.44 | blast007 | anyway, back to the MsgTeam thingy |
| 23:53.51 | blast007 | what would you mean by "reverse" of that? |
| 23:54.14 | DTRemenak | blast007: right now the server can switch the client's team. the client has no way to ask the server to switch its own team. |
| 23:54.41 | blast007 | oh, that's all he means? |
| 23:54.43 | blast007 | heh |
| 23:54.47 | DTRemenak | afaict :) |
| 23:54.59 | DTRemenak | but like I said, I haven't heard his idea yet |
| 23:55.14 | blast007 | so yeah, make it pop up the same dialog as what we could do after a connect ;) |
| 23:55.21 | AAA_awright | If the server and port field is the same as the server you are connected to, and the callsign is the same as the callsign on the server, and the password has not changed, and you are authenticated + if you have a password, and the team is changed, change the "Connect" button to "Change Team", and instead of disconnecting right away, send a MsgTeam packet to the server. If the server changes... |
| 23:55.23 | AAA_awright | ...your team, you are all set. |
| 23:55.32 | *** part/#bzflag Viza (i=viza@nylug/member/Viza) |
| 23:55.40 | blast007 | AAA_awright: that just seems non-intuitive |
| 23:55.57 | DTRemenak | probably better to have a "change team" item above "leave game" |
| 23:55.58 | AAA_awright | Those are the technical details |
| 23:55.59 | blast007 | why not just have a "change team" dialog? |
| 23:56.16 | blast007 | DTRemenak: no, he's talking about modifying the Join Server menu |
| 23:56.33 | blast007 | so that if the server/port/callsign is the same, but the team is different, that the "Connect" changes to "Change Team" |
| 23:56.34 | AAA_awright | DTRemenak: That is what JeffM sugguested, but I don't like it because it (a) adds a new, evil, menu item, and (b) you have the "Leave Server" option anyways |
| 23:56.35 | DTRemenak | blast007: I know...I'm suggesting that another item on the main menu would be a bit more obvious |
| 23:56.36 | Flash | I thought you had been talking abou "/changeTeam red" |
| 23:56.58 | AAA_awright | Slash commands, now those are non-intuitive. |
| 23:57.17 | DTRemenak | yeah, I'd like to avoid making "normal" players use slash commands as much as possible |
| 23:57.22 | Flash | intuition is only what you expect; if it isn't cumbersome, it can be learned |
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| 23:58.00 | AAA_awright | slash commands should never be required as a part of game play, I believe |
| 23:58.38 | JeffM | I was thinking just have the gui send off the /command ;) |
| 23:58.42 | Flash | I'm not hard over on it, but changing teams isn't "required" for game play either |
| 23:58.57 | AAA_awright | DTRemenak: Basically, if the users intention is to switch teams, switch teams and do not go through all the overhead of authenticating, UDP, map negotiation, etc. |
| 23:59.07 | DTRemenak | JeffM: heh, that's one way to do it I guess :) |
| 23:59.11 | JeffM | flash the goal is to have as few reconnects as possible |
| 23:59.19 | AAA_awright | Exactly |
| 23:59.21 | Flash | I'm with that |
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| 23:59.28 | DTRemenak | AAA_awright: yeah, that's been on the list for quite a while |
| 23:59.41 | DTRemenak | don't disconnect to change team, callsign, "email" etc |