| 00:00.25 | Winny | before? wow |
| 00:00.37 | Erroneous | brlcad's been talking about before, yeah |
| 00:00.37 | spldart | woah |
| 00:00.39 | Winny | Doesn't it start in about 2 months? |
| 00:00.41 | Erroneous | yup |
| 00:00.50 | spldart | 3.0 before soc 2k8? |
| 00:00.56 | Winny | IF someone does server side shot tracking |
| 00:01.02 | Erroneous | or we could release in the middle of soc, and cause everyone a TON of pain :) |
| 00:01.07 | Winny | or some other cool network feature |
| 00:01.07 | JeffM2501 | spldart, that would be what we would like |
| 00:01.16 | JeffM2501 | Winny, why? |
| 00:01.19 | Erroneous | "welcome to open-source development, this is what having three live branches and code freezes is like" :) |
| 00:01.21 | spldart | Wow... that caught me off guard |
| 00:01.38 | Winny | JeffM2501, no point in breaking proto twice if someone impltements a new feature |
| 00:01.40 | Constitution | Erroneous: there are other ways to determine how many players we're dealing with in a host ban... the Norang database is an excellent resource |
| 00:01.41 | JeffM2501 | Erroneous, aka the real world |
| 00:01.44 | JeffM2501 | Winny, why not? |
| 00:01.53 | spldart | I assume then there will be some cram coding and testing in the near future to fix bugs and their will be multiple sub revision releases soon after |
| 00:01.55 | Winny | spreads players too thin, IMO |
| 00:02.08 | Winny | and admins will need to admin two, even three servers then |
| 00:02.09 | JeffM2501 | they will get upgrade notificaitons |
| 00:02.16 | JeffM2501 | or they can just swap |
| 00:02.17 | Erroneous | JeffM2501: it's kinda harsh to do that in the middle of a full development period like soc is supposed to be |
| 00:02.32 | JeffM2501 | Erroneous, we is suposed to teach them about the real world ;) |
| 00:02.57 | JeffM2501 | Winny, your basic statement is "downloading is hard :( " ? |
| 00:03.00 | Erroneous | JeffM2501: most real-world shops don't release during the middle of four or five major projects either |
| 00:03.11 | JeffM2501 | mayhaps |
| 00:03.16 | JeffM2501 | but yes it would be better to do it before |
| 00:03.16 | Erroneous | they start the major projects after the release, or release after the projects |
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| 00:03.32 | JeffM2501 | shots ain't gonna make it in before |
| 00:03.34 | JeffM2501 | too much testing |
| 00:03.38 | JeffM2501 | GM may make it |
| 00:03.39 | JeffM2501 | maybe |
| 00:03.39 | Winny | JeffM2501, there are always those people that don't update for ages.. two breaks in ~6 months is just too painful, IMO |
| 00:03.40 | spldart | I guess I understand |
| 00:03.47 | JeffM2501 | Winny, sucks to be them |
| 00:03.59 | Erroneous | Winny: we have release notification checked in and working |
| 00:04.29 | spldart | clean up and get 3.0 out.. then start major work on what goes to next major release? |
| 00:04.29 | JeffM2501 | I'd rather not see trunk go to 4 years old |
| 00:04.33 | Erroneous | there should be a LOT fewer people who "just don't know" (i.e. nobody) |
| 00:04.35 | spldart | wow.. 2.0 is getting old isn't it |
| 00:04.50 | JeffM2501 | spldart, that's not the age of 2.0, that's the age of the trunk split |
| 00:05.02 | JeffM2501 | 2005 we split trunk from branch |
| 00:05.10 | spldart | But it makes the age stand out |
| 00:05.11 | Erroneous | we split trunk only 8 months or so after 2.0.0 |
| 00:05.12 | Epyon | BTW, custom tank models wont make it into 3.0? :P |
| 00:05.23 | JeffM2501 | Epyon, they are in 3.0 now |
| 00:05.27 | JeffM2501 | they need finishing |
| 00:05.30 | JeffM2501 | so they should |
| 00:05.34 | Erroneous | lots of stuff needs finishing |
| 00:05.36 | Epyon | Wow, I'd like to see that |
| 00:05.49 | Erroneous | "before soc 2008" is a really aggressive schedule |
| 00:06.01 | Erroneous | I think we can do it, if we want to |
| 00:06.03 | JeffM2501 | Epyon, it won't be a "pick your model and everyone sees it" kinda thing |
| 00:06.05 | Epyon | JeffM2501, what does need finishing? |
| 00:06.09 | JeffM2501 | treads |
| 00:06.18 | JeffM2501 | models that don't suck |
| 00:06.21 | Erroneous | but there are a lot of half-finished features |
| 00:06.22 | spldart | mesh collision.. flag zones.. come to mind |
| 00:06.24 | JeffM2501 | textures that don't suck |
| 00:06.41 | JeffM2501 | some implementaiton of wheels |
| 00:06.43 | Epyon | JeffM2501, I know, that would be very prone to cheating (one pixel tank FTW :P) |
| 00:06.43 | Winny | or are those the sucky ones? :P |
| 00:07.05 | Epyon | JeffM2501, I can try to do a model and textures if you guide me on what you need. |
| 00:07.07 | JeffM2501 | Epyon, you assume that we use the tank geometry for hits |
| 00:07.08 | JeffM2501 | we do not |
| 00:07.12 | JeffM2501 | Epyon, I have a model |
| 00:07.18 | Epyon | JeffM2501, no, visibility :) |
| 00:07.29 | Erroneous | it'd only cripple yourself |
| 00:07.33 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 00:07.39 | JeffM2501 | since you could not see anyone else ether |
| 00:07.45 | Epyon | " Epyon, it won't be a "pick your model and everyone sees it" kinda thing" |
| 00:07.46 | JeffM2501 | all tanks use the same model |
| 00:07.53 | Epyon | I was refering to that line |
| 00:07.55 | spldart | 'Very ambitious' comes to mind |
| 00:08.20 | JeffM2501 | if I do, do a pick your tank thing, all the clients would have to have the model installed too, or get the default |
| 00:08.40 | Winny | JeffM2501: any chance of using some of my textures? :) |
| 00:09.15 | Epyon | JeffM2501, first you write that "models that don't suck" and "textures" are the things that need finishing and then you write that you already have them... that was... fast O.o |
| 00:09.21 | JeffM2501 | Winny, not for the tank |
| 00:09.32 | JeffM2501 | Epyon, they are not finished |
| 00:09.34 | Winny | there are more then just the tank ones |
| 00:09.35 | JeffM2501 | they are started |
| 00:09.40 | JeffM2501 | Winny, dunno |
| 00:09.46 | JeffM2501 | haven't done an art pass yet |
| 00:09.48 | JeffM2501 | thats last |
| 00:09.58 | Epyon | ergo, you want to finish yours and use them, right? |
| 00:09.59 | JeffM2501 | I mean we can't even shoot some weapons now |
| 00:10.19 | JeffM2501 | Epyon, unless someone else is going to finish the code to suport them, probably |
| 00:10.42 | Epyon | JeffM2501, you mean that every model needs it own code? O.o |
| 00:11.18 | JeffM2501 | no |
| 00:11.26 | JeffM2501 | but a full tank model needs more code then we have now |
| 00:11.29 | Epyon | Too bad, I really would like to take a shot at modelling a few tanks |
| 00:11.37 | JeffM2501 | go for it |
| 00:11.45 | JeffM2501 | but that ain't gonna help 3.0 get released |
| 00:11.49 | JeffM2501 | we got bugs that need fixing |
| 00:11.51 | JeffM2501 | BIG bugs |
| 00:11.59 | JeffM2501 | I'll pull tank models in a hearbeat |
| 00:12.06 | JeffM2501 | if it means shiping on time |
| 00:12.18 | Erroneous | tank models can be added or finished in a point release, without breaking protocol |
| 00:12.23 | JeffM2501 | indeed |
| 00:12.30 | Epyon | JeffM2501, I was thinking about that, but I guess without indepth knowledge of the code, trying to fix a bug would be just a waste of time :/ |
| 00:12.41 | JeffM2501 | Epyon, how is it a waste |
| 00:12.45 | JeffM2501 | it fixes a bug |
| 00:12.49 | JeffM2501 | and you learn the code more |
| 00:12.52 | JeffM2501 | that is never a waste |
| 00:13.07 | JeffM2501 | the game can not ship with out fixes |
| 00:13.24 | Erroneous | we've got serious stuff that needs to be fixed before release (like gm's not tracking, thief being broken, etc) and features that need to be finished/checked in (I'd like to at least get the message framework in for server dialogs) |
| 00:13.41 | Epyon | However if you have a bug report/feature request tied to the UI drawing/map generation/plugin system, I might take a look. |
| 00:14.03 | JeffM2501 | that is a waste of time |
| 00:14.13 | JeffM2501 | if you want to help, fix real bugs |
| 00:14.25 | Erroneous | tracking down and fixing bugs is one of the best ways to get familiar with the codebase :) |
| 00:15.02 | Erroneous | we don't have any major outstanding ui bugs at the moment. map and plugin stuff can be fixed in point releases later on, particularly if it's not critical. you're always welcome to take a look though, of course. |
| 00:15.22 | JeffM2501 | there are no major plug-ins that need to generate a map |
| 00:15.47 | JeffM2501 | geting mesh colisions unbusted is more important then an API change |
| 00:16.07 | Epyon | It's all a matter of productivity -- fixing bugs related to something I wont be working on anyway would be a waste of time in terms of "time taken/gain" |
| 00:16.19 | JeffM2501 | a waste of your time |
| 00:16.25 | JeffM2501 | not for the project |
| 00:16.50 | Erroneous | JeffM2501: he's trying to figure out where his goals and the project's align :) |
| 00:16.56 | JeffM2501 | they don't |
| 00:16.58 | Erroneous | right now the answer may be nowhere |
| 00:17.00 | JeffM2501 | just like last time |
| 00:17.04 | Epyon | Well true, but given that I will spend X hours on the project, I'd like those X hours give as much gain as possible, right? :) |
| 00:17.07 | JeffM2501 | me disease |
| 00:17.31 | JeffM2501 | Epyon, the problem is the gain from API work means way less then real bug fixes |
| 00:17.50 | JeffM2501 | every feature has a value too |
| 00:18.03 | Erroneous | open source is a lot about the developer - fixing stuff that bugs you, which happens to also bug other people |
| 00:18.12 | JeffM2501 | the value of an API to add world objects is like 3, the value of theif working, is 100 |
| 00:18.31 | JeffM2501 | lets say you add the API, then one plugin will use it |
| 00:18.40 | JeffM2501 | on lets say 5-10 servers |
| 00:18.50 | Epyon | Yeah, yeah, I get the idea. |
| 00:18.55 | Erroneous | now if we actually got people playing on 3.0, then people would be bugged by the broken stuff, and fix it |
| 00:19.01 | Erroneous | presumably |
| 00:19.03 | JeffM2501 | you fix thief, that affects 250 servers ;) |
| 00:20.23 | Erroneous | bugs and the shot stuff is the biggest outstanding stuff for 3.0, I think |
| 00:20.45 | Erroneous | there are probably lots of bugs we don't even know about, too |
| 00:20.53 | blast007 | Erroneous: and the mesh stuff |
| 00:20.57 | JeffM2501 | I don't think we can do server side deaths with the shots in 3 |
| 00:21.01 | blast007 | and randomly blowing up on spawn |
| 00:21.04 | JeffM2501 | it will take too much testing |
| 00:21.05 | Erroneous | I mean hell, for a couple months nobody could spawn :) |
| 00:21.07 | Epyon | However, if I start working on the thief bug, I may waste X hours, and after that get bored and frustrated with a 80% and practicaly waste time. Other more interesting tasks from my point of view might have a far lower "boredom/frustration" chance. |
| 00:21.35 | JeffM2501 | Epyon, if noone fixes the theif bug your precious world plugin never ships ;) |
| 00:21.49 | Epyon | JeffM2501, that sounded like blackmail :P |
| 00:21.54 | JeffM2501 | Epyon, a simple fact |
| 00:21.55 | blast007 | hehe |
| 00:22.05 | JeffM2501 | and actualy we are at the point where we want no new features |
| 00:22.13 | JeffM2501 | so yeah, it may get diverted to a branch |
| 00:22.19 | JeffM2501 | we need the codebase stable to ship |
| 00:22.26 | Erroneous | bzflag has historically been a project where developers work on whatever makes them happy. you can always work on whatever you want as long as it doesn't break anything else. |
| 00:22.33 | JeffM2501 | true |
| 00:22.36 | JeffM2501 | you can do what you want |
| 00:22.38 | JeffM2501 | never said that |
| 00:22.48 | JeffM2501 | I'm just stating what I think we need to to do ship |
| 00:22.52 | blast007 | Erroneous: or even if it does break anything else ;) |
| 00:22.54 | Erroneous | just be aware that choosing not to work on critical issues means releases get delayed, which means cool stuff you've already worked on never gets to the user |
| 00:23.06 | JeffM2501 | and reserve the right to push your non-esential changes to a future branch |
| 00:23.33 | JeffM2501 | if there is any question of it's stability |
| 00:23.34 | Erroneous | blast007: typically working on something that breaks everyone requires some amount of collaboration |
| 00:23.44 | JeffM2501 | Erroneous, or I have to write it |
| 00:23.45 | Erroneous | otherwise it just gets reverted |
| 00:24.11 | Erroneous | JeffM2501: still requires collaboration. you tend to talk about it first, so it's cool. |
| 00:24.17 | blast007 | JeffM2501: any idea if you can get the tangibility stuff to work for the mesh faces? |
| 00:24.17 | JeffM2501 | heh |
| 00:24.26 | JeffM2501 | blast007, sure, given time |
| 00:24.32 | blast007 | ;) |
| 00:24.34 | JeffM2501 | but I don't think it's a feature we need for 3.0 |
| 00:24.35 | Erroneous | if you'd checked in that network stuff without talking to anyone first, I probably would have just reverted it straight up ;) |
| 00:24.39 | JeffM2501 | so I'd be cool pushing it back |
| 00:24.48 | JeffM2501 | heck, I say make a 3.0 branch NOW |
| 00:25.01 | JeffM2501 | and we all work in it and push forward fixes |
| 00:25.11 | JeffM2501 | and pull stuff that dosn't work |
| 00:25.25 | JeffM2501 | if it's feasable |
| 00:26.45 | Constitution | did we get nn's super ausom power-bzadmin patch in yet? must do that first... |
| 00:27.42 | blast007 | Constitution: heh... it was a hack with a specific need for him ;) |
| 00:27.50 | blast007 | not like it would be of any use to anyone else |
| 00:27.56 | JeffM2501 | Constitution, did he ever submit it to sourceforge? |
| 00:28.09 | Constitution | lol, no |
| 00:28.17 | JeffM2501 | then he has never submited a patch |
| 00:28.30 | blast007 | he probably submit it to sourcefarge instead |
| 00:28.51 | JeffM2501 | probably just bzbb |
| 00:29.09 | blast007 | wasn't it just outputting player positions? |
| 00:29.14 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 00:29.22 | Erroneous | JeffM2501: the question is, is what we have "finished" in trunk right now, really worth a 3.0 release, even if it was all fixed? |
| 00:29.22 | blast007 | useless.. |
| 00:29.24 | JeffM2501 | something that 3.0 can't do |
| 00:29.54 | JeffM2501 | Erroneous, some server side stuff, a new flag, new shots, hud markers, bzrobots, and bug fixes. |
| 00:30.05 | blast007 | a new flag? Low Gravity? |
| 00:30.05 | JeffM2501 | lag compensation |
| 00:30.07 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 00:30.15 | JeffM2501 | a more consistent server side state |
| 00:30.18 | blast007 | which actually isn't Low Gravity at all? just Higher Jump? :P |
| 00:30.19 | JeffM2501 | API fixes |
| 00:30.34 | JeffM2501 | we can set the score, etc.. |
| 00:30.45 | Erroneous | blast007: no, it's low gravity... same jump velocity, different downward acceleration |
| 00:30.52 | blast007 | Erroneous: not last I checked |
| 00:31.01 | blast007 | so unless someone fixed it.. |
| 00:31.03 | JeffM2501 | see if you fall slower |
| 00:31.10 | Erroneous | I'm pretty sure it's correct |
| 00:31.16 | Erroneous | if not, there's a patch for it |
| 00:31.24 | JeffM2501 | but that is a test, write up a changelog and see if it measure up |
| 00:31.25 | Erroneous | which someone needs to review anyway |
| 00:31.44 | blast007 | I'll check it |
| 00:33.45 | blast007 | } else if (flag == Flags::LowGravity) { |
| 00:33.45 | blast007 | <PROTECTED> |
| 00:34.13 | Erroneous | hah |
| 00:34.13 | blast007 | easy to notice, because when you drop the flag, you don't fall any faster |
| 00:34.49 | Erroneous | I stand corrected :) |
| 00:34.55 | blast007 | maybe if I get bored tomorrow I'll fix it |
| 00:35.04 | Erroneous | blast007: there is a patch for per-tank gravity |
| 00:35.16 | blast007 | hmm |
| 00:35.24 | Erroneous | it needs to be reviewed; I have not gotten to it. you are welcome to check it out. |
| 00:37.47 | blast007 | seems a little overboard |
| 00:39.23 | blast007 | all we really need to do is add another case for gravity like Wings already has |
| 00:45.31 | donny_baker | ok, stupid question |
| 00:46.05 | donny_baker | would it be useful to have a software development management package like JIRA or TRAC |
| 00:46.19 | donny_baker | seems like a bunch of remembering |
| 00:49.09 | donny_baker | or even forgbugz... they give their software away to opensource projects |
| 00:49.22 | donny_baker | frogbugz* |
| 00:54.03 | blast007 | ~Constitution++ |
| 01:04.03 | Erroneous | donny_baker: like sourceforge? :) |
| 01:04.21 | JeffM2501 | that we never use |
| 01:04.32 | JeffM2501 | our managemanet issues are not techincal ones ;) |
| 01:05.05 | Erroneous | true dat |
| 01:06.02 | JeffM2501 | so have we applied to SoC? |
| 01:06.17 | Erroneous | yeah, brlcad applied for us |
| 01:06.34 | JeffM2501 | cool, so he submited |
| 01:08.01 | blast007 | heh... the _lgGravity is actually more gravity that _gravity |
| 01:08.04 | blast007 | than* |
| 01:08.19 | blast007 | what would we want it to default to? |
| 01:08.42 | JeffM2501 | 42 |
| 01:08.45 | blast007 | :P |
| 01:15.34 | blast007 | guess I'll try 75% of _gravity |
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| 01:46.17 | brlcad | donny_baker: we also have simple text files for the day-to-day tracking of issues.. far lower barrier to use than any tracking system |
| 01:46.26 | brlcad | that's what BUGS, TODO are for |
| 01:55.24 | spldart | My spawns are sticking to the bases :confused: Wasn't a problem a while ago |
| 02:01.02 | CBG | iirc, try moving bases up or down by 0.1 or so |
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| 02:09.42 | Winny | Never gonna give you up! |
| 02:13.18 | *** kick/#bzflag [Winny!n=JeffM@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/JeffM2501] by JeffM2501 (JeffM2501) |
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| 02:14.33 | Winny | :p |
| 02:15.52 | spldart | Quick on the draw, I thought I'd be dead, |
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| 02:17.16 | CBG | Never gonna run around and desert you. |
| 02:18.24 | spldart | ... and cranks up beastie boys LOUDER |
| 02:19.11 | Winny | somehow I think you'd like rickroll more then O Magnum Mysterium ;) |
| 02:19.33 | CBG | Rick Roll Rules. I love it. |
| 02:19.50 | spldart | CBG the bases are up .1 above the meshes as it is... I may have to move them more |
| 02:19.54 | spldart | Used to work as it |
| 02:19.55 | spldart | is |
| 02:21.02 | CBG | Well, I just vaguely remember that that fixed some problem with getting stuck on them... |
| 02:23.12 | spldart | I'mma try increasing just to get it fixed short term... I forgot how profesional I did this map.. everything noted nicely :) |
| 02:24.38 | spldart | crap... still spawing sealed with bases .1 higher |
| 02:28.22 | spldart | Wow... I got my bases floating above my meshes and they are still sticky.. I don't get it |
| 02:28.46 | spldart | every join I have to self destruct to unseal and respawn elsewhere... |
| 02:28.53 | Winny | -sb? |
| 02:28.57 | spldart | Heh.. maybe that's it... How do I set spawn zones |
| 02:29.19 | Winny | http://my.bzflag.org/w/Zone/ |
| 02:29.29 | Winny | oh darn wrong link |
| 02:29.44 | spldart | I have flag zones already |
| 02:29.48 | spldart | but not spawn zones |
| 02:29.55 | Winny | http://my.bzflag.org/w/Zone .. spawn zones are more or less the same |
| 02:33.58 | Winny | yay new episode of Systm is out |
| 02:44.56 | spldart | It's my client! |
| 02:45.08 | spldart | My client spawns sealed.. others aren't having the problem |
| 02:45.16 | Winny | o.O |
| 02:45.21 | spldart | .. I'll have to try this with the windows client to check |
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| 03:07.14 | JeffM | ok, anyone here with a paypal account want to make the ultimate sacrifice for me? |
| 03:07.46 | a_meteorite | depends |
| 03:07.53 | JeffM | not you, your poor |
| 03:07.57 | JeffM | :) |
| 03:08.06 | a_meteorite | that is true |
| 03:08.16 | JeffM | tho it is only 0.60$ |
| 03:09.19 | Constitution | sure |
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| 03:09.22 | AAA_awright | Any advertising space available on whatever it is? |
| 03:09.27 | JeffM | heh |
| 03:09.47 | JeffM | Constitution, you ok spending 60 cents and never ever getting it back unless you meet me again and beat it out of me? |
| 03:10.00 | Constitution | if I must ;) |
| 03:10.14 | fatass | I'll spend 50 cents! |
| 03:10.48 | JeffM | I havea problem with shiping addreses not getting filled in but I thik it's cus I have more then one paypall setup here |
| 03:11.20 | JeffM | buy one of these |
| 03:11.21 | JeffM | http://store.bzflag.bz/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=8 |
| 03:11.30 | JeffM | pick the "flat rate" shipping. that is 10 cents |
| 03:11.57 | fatass | Oh, I can't pay in pennies? That's too bad. |
| 03:12.09 | JeffM | then pay via paypal, and make sure that you have paypal set to give me your address |
| 03:13.09 | JeffM | I need to verify that I can print a shiping label from within paypal, if i can then I'm set other then waiting on USPS |
| 03:13.35 | JeffM | well that and replacing a bunch of boilerplate text |
| 03:15.37 | JeffM | heh, you are on the checkout page :) |
| 03:15.54 | JeffM | wow I can even see your OS |
| 03:16.10 | Constitution | OS X ftw |
| 03:16.26 | JeffM | it gives some very detailed stats of who is online |
| 03:16.34 | Constitution | k, done |
| 03:17.51 | JeffM | awesome, thanks |
| 03:18.01 | JeffM | filled in the shipping right from paypal :) |
| 03:18.04 | Constitution | when may I expect remittance of the goods? |
| 03:18.09 | Constitution | cool :) |
| 03:19.41 | JeffM | thank you for the help |
| 03:20.15 | JeffM | and the 60 cents :) |
| 03:20.21 | JeffM | well 28 that we get |
| 03:20.33 | Constitution | heh |
| 03:21.56 | JeffM | it is remarkably easy to sell stuff over the internet |
| 03:28.57 | Constitution | sell me Winny's soul |
| 03:29.06 | JeffM | 375$ |
| 03:29.48 | Constitution | too much ;) |
| 03:34.36 | a_meteorite | what use does one have for Winny's soul? |
| 03:35.48 | Constitution | I have a hoarde of many souls that serve me |
| 03:38.54 | a_meteorite | you are a sad sad little man |
| 03:40.25 | Constitution | not little |
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| 04:09.10 | bz69 | @whodaman: Hello are u there? |
| 04:09.23 | bz69 | Whodaman are u there? |
| 04:09.27 | bz69 | Plz answer |
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| 04:11.46 | Constitution | if he's not, how can he answer you? |
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| 05:41.43 | L4m3r | ~bzflist |
| 05:41.53 | L4m3r | hm |
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| 06:19.45 | JeffM | yay for cheezing out the shipping system on the store :) |
| 06:29.00 | Constitution | is PETER's signature on the BZBB appropriate? it reads "I am not a pirate. I simply use other people's backups of the stuff I haven't bought yet." |
| 06:29.19 | JeffM | not really |
| 06:29.30 | Constitution | http://my.bzflag.org/bb/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=23260 |
| 06:30.02 | Constitution | er, guess that doesn't show the signature |
| 06:30.14 | JeffM | I see it |
| 06:32.54 | JeffM | yay, so 11$ per item to ship anywhere in the world, 5 for the US :) |
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| 06:38.10 | Winny | hmm |
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| 13:10.51 | spldart | I didn't realize that Arc's are having collision issues too... |
| 13:11.04 | spldart | And I didn't realize team flags have hearts on them hehe |
| 13:11.15 | ruskie | do they? |
| 13:12.08 | spldart | on 2.99 |
| 13:13.13 | spldart | Whats the similarity between an arc and a mesh? |
| 13:14.21 | ts | spldart: Arcs are made of meshe, IIRC and meshes have collision issues.. |
| 13:15.27 | spldart | I knew about the mesh collision issue but didn't know about arcs being meshes.. I figured since they weren't all drawn out like a custom mesh that they were more simliar to pyr's and boxes in game logic.. guess I was wrong |
| 13:24.21 | spldart | I think I have it confirmed now.. Your right... arc isn't treated the same... treated like a mesh |
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| 14:07.09 | donny_baker | don't you go to school anymore :P |
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| 14:09.52 | Winny | nope |
| 14:09.53 | Winny | :p |
| 14:10.05 | Winny | I'm as smartt as can be already! |
| 14:10.52 | Winny | ;) |
| 14:11.31 | donny_baker | :) |
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| 16:13.36 | spldart | Two interesting issues with my client using v2_0branch code built on linux. On my WarTowers map it always first spawns stuck in the base sealed. The base sits .11 above a mesh with an arc floor for driveablity... Windows client does not have this issue. Also same linux client locks after limited play on 1purplepanzer.hopto.org:4610 and even leaving X and trying to kill the process as su will not release the locked client... I have to |
| 16:13.37 | Winny | oh my god |
| 16:13.43 | Winny | Mozilla killed FF3 http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080310-first-look-firefox-3-beta-4-brings-new-vista-hotness.html |
| 16:14.54 | JeffM | Winny, why is making it have vista specific features "killing" it? |
| 16:15.04 | Winny | Look at the icons.. they're damn ugly |
| 16:15.20 | JeffM | Winny, do you run vista? |
| 16:15.49 | Winny | Not at home, but at school, yes |
| 16:16.03 | JeffM | thenyou should be used to ugly icons on vista |
| 16:16.11 | Winny | heh |
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| 16:19.29 | blast007 | JeffM: I have a "fix" for the Low Gravity flag ready to commit, but I'm wondering if I should bump protocol |
| 16:19.45 | JeffM | probably |
| 16:19.51 | blast007 | k |
| 16:19.57 | blast007 | the jump height should be about the same |
| 16:20.00 | JeffM | it does no harm, and just makes it easer |
| 16:20.08 | blast007 | but how the variable works is different now |
| 16:20.21 | JeffM | and how you fall is diferent I would think is |
| 16:20.39 | blast007 | with low gravity, you can get to a little over 25 units high |
| 16:20.53 | JeffM | and you fall slower right? |
| 16:21.00 | blast007 | and if you drop the flag now, you accelerate at the normal gravity |
| 16:21.00 | blast007 | yes |
| 16:21.08 | JeffM | that's the big dif |
| 16:21.13 | blast007 | k |
| 16:21.27 | blast007 | also added some new bugs to the list ;) |
| 16:21.28 | JeffM | cus that will screw up the people that time shots on landing |
| 16:21.32 | blast007 | -set and /reset don't work |
| 16:21.32 | JeffM | cooll |
| 16:21.39 | JeffM | I'm sure lots of stuff dosn't |
| 16:23.00 | Wyk3d | hi JeffM, I'd be interested in applying for gsoc this year and I have some ideas that aren't necessarily on the ideas list, should i wait for them till the application, discuss them here or in private ? |
| 16:23.23 | JeffM | Wyk3d, discuss away |
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| 16:24.46 | Wyk3d | well, as i understand you're in the process of moving more of the client processes to the server and for that you would need additions to the current API |
| 16:24.54 | CIA-26 | BZFlag: 03blast007 * r16731 10/trunk/bzflag/ (5 files in 5 dirs): |
| 16:24.54 | CIA-26 | BZFlag: Add a note to BUGS that -set at the terminal and /reset in-game do not work. Using /set in-game works though. |
| 16:24.54 | CIA-26 | BZFlag: Make the Low Gravity flag actually affect gravity, not the jump velocity. Defaults to 0.75 normal gravity, and allows tanks to jump 25 units high. |
| 16:24.54 | CIA-26 | BZFlag: Bump protocol to 0058. |
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| 16:25.11 | JeffM | Wyk3d, partaly correct |
| 16:25.31 | Wyk3d | so i looked at the current netcode for bzflag and bzfs and found that a lot of code is repeated |
| 16:25.32 | JeffM | we don't NEED api calls to move stuff to the server, it would just be nice to have them so that plug-ins can modify the default behavor |
| 16:26.02 | JeffM | yeah much of the pack and unpack is duped |
| 16:26.35 | Wyk3d | so i figured, to make extending the current framework better, it would be a good idea to include a common network backend that would server both server and client |
| 16:26.50 | Wyk3d | more maintainable, better designed etc |
| 16:27.02 | JeffM | sure |
| 16:27.04 | Wyk3d | a simplistic but powerful library |
| 16:27.12 | JeffM | ok |
| 16:27.25 | JeffM | what version of the code are you looking at? |
| 16:27.29 | JeffM | 2.0.x? or trunk? |
| 16:27.35 | Wyk3d | i looked at the trunk |
| 16:27.39 | JeffM | k |
| 16:27.54 | JeffM | the network stuff dosnt' realy move anything to the server tho |
| 16:27.59 | Wyk3d | so i thought of a library that i've already use that fits these requirements |
| 16:28.05 | Wyk3d | it's called the Alhem socket library |
| 16:28.07 | JeffM | even if you have both client and server using the same lib |
| 16:28.19 | Wyk3d | ofcourse it doesn't |
| 16:28.24 | Wyk3d | it just makes moving stuff easier |
| 16:28.25 | JeffM | Wyk3d, all that would do is replace winsoc |
| 16:28.48 | Wyk3d | not just winsoc |
| 16:29.03 | JeffM | what other features over base socets does it offer? |
| 16:29.05 | Wyk3d | but everything net related except libcurl |
| 16:29.19 | JeffM | umm that's just sockets and winsock ;) |
| 16:29.24 | JeffM | we don't use anything else networking wise |
| 16:29.30 | Wyk3d | well it's easier to use, object oriented |
| 16:29.44 | JeffM | does it offer any other features over base sockets? like RPC? compression? channels? UDP only? |
| 16:30.10 | Wyk3d | afaik it doesn't have builtin compression.. |
| 16:30.18 | JeffM | have you looked at raknet? |
| 16:30.25 | JeffM | or other more game oriented networking libs |
| 16:30.31 | JeffM | that do more then just socket wrapers? |
| 16:30.53 | Wyk3d | no but sounds interesting |
| 16:31.21 | JeffM | the idea of reworking the network code to be more common is not a bad one |
| 16:31.31 | JeffM | but I think you'd have to end up doing a number of other networking enhancments as well |
| 16:31.37 | JeffM | such as threading the server, etc.. |
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| 16:31.54 | Wyk3d | about other networking enhancements |
| 16:32.01 | JeffM | and I would not propose it as having anything to do with moving stuff to the server |
| 16:32.19 | JeffM | if we are going to swap networking libs, then we should find one with the most number of featuers we can get :) |
| 16:33.13 | Wyk3d | indeed |
| 16:34.07 | Wyk3d | well initially i thought that if "just a network" libary wouldn't be enough, then maybe as an application of the netcode i could write a simple daemon for server lists and global auth aswell |
| 16:34.23 | JeffM | perhaps |
| 16:34.24 | blast007 | http://www.jenkinssoftware.com/raknet/manual/rakvoice.html <-- Nifty |
| 16:34.27 | JeffM | tho we are using HTTP now |
| 16:34.34 | Wyk3d | i know, libcurl |
| 16:34.44 | JeffM | libcurl is not used for the server |
| 16:34.54 | JeffM | your list server would have to be better then our current one |
| 16:35.05 | JeffM | auth is a big thing right now |
| 16:35.14 | JeffM | we want/need to make it distributed |
| 16:35.37 | JeffM | so just sayin you want to throw it into a deamon may not be the best thing, since we may be changing how the entire thing works |
| 16:35.44 | JeffM | currently we are looking at ldap |
| 16:36.01 | Wyk3d | yes i looked at ldap |
| 16:36.23 | JeffM | so have we :) |
| 16:36.40 | JeffM | ldap is nice for us because the fourms, wiki, website, and the game can all be made to use it |
| 16:36.44 | JeffM | one login for all |
| 16:36.50 | Wyk3d | so i've heard .. yes |
| 16:37.22 | JeffM | on the idea of a socket wraper, I don't know how much weight it woudl hold |
| 16:37.24 | Wyk3d | so the current auth website is not capable of handling the load ? |
| 16:37.27 | Winny | bah, no 058 servers yet ;) |
| 16:37.33 | JeffM | we already have what is basicly our own current wraper |
| 16:37.37 | JeffM | in our network lib |
| 16:37.48 | JeffM | it handles the low level socket stuff |
| 16:38.02 | JeffM | so the exposure of that new lib would be minimal |
| 16:38.13 | JeffM | the real worlk would be in modifying that network handler class |
| 16:38.36 | JeffM | Wyk3d, since it's http, it tends to get attacked, and loads up |
| 16:38.40 | JeffM | it is not very efficent |
| 16:39.09 | blast007 | Winny: I'm rebuilding mine right now |
| 16:39.10 | JeffM | it holds the normal load fine, it's just when that load (no list http traffic ) spikes it has issues |
| 16:39.23 | Winny | blast007: :) |
| 16:39.32 | JeffM | so a distributed system would help that, and give us a net against worse issues. |
| 16:39.46 | blast007 | or, if we have a network issue at sagonet, another server elsewhere can take over ;) |
| 16:39.51 | JeffM | since we have had the HTTP list, I say our current server is handling it the best |
| 16:39.56 | blast007 | single point of failure == bad |
| 16:40.11 | JeffM | blast007, thats what I meant by "worse issue" |
| 16:40.42 | JeffM | there are many reasons to have your core sevices distributed |
| 16:42.41 | blast007 | Winny: the random map I'm running has 20 Low Gravity flags |
| 16:43.26 | Winny | hmm, f4 doesn't work for minimizing |
| 16:44.00 | JeffM | fix it :) |
| 16:44.05 | blast007 | did you build with SDL? |
| 16:44.41 | Winny | Just worked now.. odd |
| 16:44.56 | blast007 | it doesn't work while in a menu |
| 16:45.01 | Winny | ahh, ok |
| 16:45.05 | blast007 | at least without joining a game |
| 16:45.10 | blast007 | nor does F5, iirc |
| 16:45.14 | Winny | JeffM: I would, but it takes be a week to write a Hello world C++ program :P |
| 16:45.17 | Winny | me* |
| 16:45.28 | JeffM | Winny, there is only one way to get better ;) |
| 16:46.32 | Wyk3d | so would a highly efficient and secure global auth daemon be high enough on the priority list to have any chance ? |
| 16:46.45 | blast007 | Wyk3d: yes |
| 16:46.53 | JeffM | Wyk3d, yeah if it could suport all our needs |
| 16:47.11 | JeffM | distributed, able to let non game systems auth into it, etc. |
| 16:47.28 | JeffM | be able to work and support the group manager, etc.. |
| 16:47.33 | Wyk3d | non game systems via ldap i presume |
| 16:47.44 | JeffM | via some maintainable system |
| 16:47.53 | JeffM | ldap is just the current idea |
| 16:48.06 | JeffM | in your research you could sugest other systems |
| 16:48.11 | JeffM | and why |
| 16:48.51 | Wyk3d | sql is there but not as easy to integrate with other stuff I guess |
| 16:49.08 | JeffM | that'd be part of your research ;) |
| 16:49.15 | blast007 | Wyk3d: most things would not have direct LDAP communication. My thought is that only the auth daemon, the forum, wiki, main site, and other official web services would have direct LDAP access. The servers and clients would go through the auth daemon. |
| 16:49.42 | JeffM | currently we are using phpbb2, and plan to upgrade to phpbb3 |
| 16:49.47 | JeffM | for the fourms |
| 16:49.53 | JeffM | the group manager is custom code |
| 16:50.00 | JeffM | weblogin is custom code |
| 16:50.10 | Wyk3d | blast007: yes, that's pretty much how i pictured it |
| 16:50.18 | JeffM | and the current plan is to make the main website use drupal since it can use ldap, and manage ldap users. |
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| 16:51.21 | Winny | yay drupal |
| 16:51.59 | JeffM | dude last week you were all "why do we have to use drupal.. it sucks... why can't we use wordpress..:( " |
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| 16:52.08 | Winny | Either works |
| 16:52.43 | JeffM | Wyk3d, another big thing for us is we would prefer to have less fist party software to maintain. |
| 16:52.48 | JeffM | first party |
| 16:55.57 | blast007 | brlcad would find this interesting: http://www.jenkinssoftware.com/raknet/manual/networksimulator.html |
| 16:56.40 | Wyk3d | yes, so that would mean chosing an efficient network library, openldap (if we use ldap) |
| 16:57.10 | Wyk3d | maybe a common public/private key encryption lib |
| 16:57.13 | Winny | I believe he already is going with that one |
| 16:58.13 | blast007 | Winny: well, he has it installed and has played with it. not sure how far he has gotten with "going" with it |
| 16:58.25 | Winny | ahh |
| 16:59.03 | blast007 | I've tried a wiki out authentiating to an LDAP server (Windows Server 2003) and it worked |
| 16:59.24 | blast007 | though I think it was more limited in what I could do, compared to something like OpenLDAP |
| 16:59.42 | blast007 | Netware would probably be better as well |
| 17:00.42 | JeffM | raknet is VERY Cool |
| 17:01.15 | Winny | We should just send in our callsign and password to blast007 in an envelope and then he can either allow our client to identify or not ;) |
| 17:01.27 | blast007 | that'd work |
| 17:01.31 | L4m3r | by pidgeon |
| 17:01.35 | blast007 | hehe |
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| 17:05.59 | blast007 | hello RHimeAnimal |
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| 17:22.42 | JeffM | so blast007 &| brlcad ether of you want to take a spin thru the store site when you have a chance and see if you find any problems/mispellings/text that should be changed? |
| 17:31.55 | L4m3r | "Don't fight naked, buy a shirt" -> "Don't fight naked. Buy a shirt." |
| 17:33.22 | JeffM | thanks |
| 17:33.34 | L4m3r | "Help support the project, buy a CD." -> "Help support the project by buying a CD." |
| 17:34.46 | L4m3r | "Each CD contains pre-made versions of full game" -> "Each CD contains pre-made versions of the full game" :P |
| 17:35.54 | L4m3r | Looks good, though. |
| 17:43.02 | JeffM | thanks I made those changes |
| 17:43.20 | JeffM | now that USPS shipping is setup, the store is basicly live |
| 17:43.45 | JeffM | we are just an unverified paypal user |
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| 18:59.14 | Winny | JeffM, has satu submitted his t-shirt yet? |
| 19:13.47 | Winny | s/t-shirt/design/ |
| 19:14.59 | donny_baker | s/design/t-shirt design/ |
| 19:15.01 | JeffM | no |
| 19:15.08 | Winny | :( |
| 19:15.14 | JeffM | why? |
| 19:16.05 | JeffM | as am I, but it is best not to rush people |
| 19:20.45 | blast007 | "EEach CD contains pre-made" |
| 19:22.29 | JeffM | damnit |
| 19:22.33 | SpazzyMcGee | Just to check: it's four colors + the background? |
| 19:22.43 | JeffM | 4 is the MAX |
| 19:22.47 | JeffM | less then 4 is better |
| 19:23.01 | JeffM | and yes colors do not count on the background |
| 19:23.08 | JeffM | each color adds cost to the shirt |
| 19:23.15 | SpazzyMcGee | ah.... |
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| 19:31.05 | JeffM | blast007, we can put standard HTML in for the item descriptions, so if you have any ideas on it, let me know :) |
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| 19:38.08 | Winny | Oh boy! It's the 2nd Tuesday of the month! |
| 19:38.16 | Winny | It's Microsoft patch tuesday! |
| 19:38.19 | a_meteorite | is that special? |
| 19:38.20 | a_meteorite | oh |
| 19:38.41 | Winny | :) |
| 19:40.25 | SpazzyMcGee | what's the store URL again? |
| 19:40.36 | JeffM | store.bzflag.bz |
| 19:41.13 | SpazzyMcGee | I suppose I could have worked that out for myself. |
| 19:41.54 | Erroneous | should probably get tim to assign you store.bzflag.org too |
| 19:42.03 | JeffM | yeah we will |
| 19:42.08 | JeffM | wanted to get it all setup first |
| 19:42.09 | SpazzyMcGee | Are you planning on doing just the one favorite design? |
| 19:42.19 | JeffM | SpazzyMcGee, the first run will be one design |
| 19:42.22 | Erroneous | for the first run, just one |
| 19:42.28 | JeffM | but if those go ok we will do more designs |
| 19:42.42 | Winny | You might saturate the market :) |
| 19:42.45 | JeffM | more designs means more people that may buy more then one shirt |
| 19:42.45 | Erroneous | if it's a popular thing we may do more |
| 19:42.46 | SpazzyMcGee | heh |
| 19:42.51 | JeffM | Winny, perhaps |
| 19:42.59 | JeffM | we do have some player turnover |
| 19:43.02 | JeffM | so that may help |
| 19:43.30 | Erroneous | and there will be people who want different designs, if we do a second batch with a different design |
| 19:43.35 | SpazzyMcGee | People might be more interested if there were witty messages. |
| 19:43.46 | Erroneous | SpazzyMcGee: cook some up then! :) |
| 19:43.57 | Winny | Dear god I hate shirts with stupid messages |
| 19:44.05 | SpazzyMcGee | heh |
| 19:44.22 | JeffM | it may also be hard to do the messages in various languages |
| 19:44.48 | SpazzyMcGee | I would have thought the only other major language would be German. |
| 19:45.37 | SpazzyMcGee | Is there a significant spanish/french community? |
| 19:45.49 | Winny | JeffM, here's the PSD for mine: http://art.bzflagr.net/svnroot/Shirts/Concept1.psd |
| 19:45.54 | Winny | I'm pretty much done. |
| 19:46.59 | JeffM | got a png? I don't have photoshop here |
| 19:47.23 | Winny | oh |
| 19:47.29 | Winny | yeah, one sec |
| 19:48.38 | Winny | http://art.bzflagr.net/svnroot/Shirts/FinalShirt1.png |
| 19:49.22 | JeffM | your mime types are not set right ;) |
| 19:49.23 | Winny | mm, didn't even need to restart after th M$ patches |
| 19:49.23 | JeffM | that is not bad |
| 19:49.37 | JeffM | I don't mind the setencel font ether |
| 19:49.46 | JeffM | tho did you also look at the font we use in the logo images? |
| 19:50.03 | Winny | I really really hate that font. Sorry. :P |
| 19:50.32 | JeffM | it looks like you have 4 colors |
| 19:50.35 | JeffM | not 3 |
| 19:50.37 | Winny | eh, I do? |
| 19:50.48 | JeffM | there is some dark gray |
| 19:50.51 | JeffM | front of the treads |
| 19:50.55 | JeffM | and on the barrel |
| 19:50.57 | Winny | grr, I thought I got rid of it |
| 19:51.18 | JeffM | have you tried that with a wireframe tank? |
| 19:51.29 | JeffM | or some form of outline? |
| 19:51.36 | JeffM | to maybe coputer it up? |
| 19:53.13 | Winny | hmm, ok |
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| 19:57.58 | Winny | JeffM, http://art.bzflagr.net/svnroot/Shirts/FinalShirt2.png |
| 19:58.04 | Winny | That should get rid of the grey |
| 19:58.16 | Winny | the PSD is in the same SVN dir if you want it later |
| 19:58.20 | JeffM | k |
| 19:58.26 | JeffM | fix your mime types ;) |
| 19:58.45 | Winny | it does that, and I havent bothered to figure out how to fix it |
| 19:59.07 | Winny | it only does that in subversion dirs ;) |
| 19:59.44 | JeffM | probably how your webdav is setup |
| 19:59.46 | JeffM | or the extra info on the files isn't right |
| 19:59.46 | Winny | hm, ok |
| 19:59.46 | JeffM | you can set the default mime type based on extension |
| 19:59.46 | JeffM | IIRC |
| 20:00.48 | JeffM | heh |
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| 20:53.32 | brlcad | blast007: that is pretty interesting |
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| 20:57.01 | brlcad | blast007: there's also a server on a different isp over in germany that we can use (if there's a net issue at sagonet) |
| 20:58.38 | blast007 | brlcad: right, that was my point ;) the current system can't handle that |
| 20:59.02 | blast007 | we'd have to change DNS and wait for it to propagate |
| 20:59.38 | brlcad | Wyk3d: also ldap and libcurl have pretty much nothing to do with in-game communications (injecting/responding to comments made earlier) .. the game chatter has completely different requirements. bzauthd could talk over a completely different (custom) protocol if it has to, something lightweight between the it and the client/servers |
| 21:00.49 | Winny | haha |
| 21:01.45 | brlcad | also not too fond of that tank in FinalShirt .... |
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| 21:07.11 | JeffM | brlcad, are you happy enough to buy a CD? ;) |
| 21:08.29 | Winny | how much is the shipping on the CDs? |
| 21:08.54 | JeffM | depends on where you are and how fast you want it |
| 21:09.02 | Winny | Canada - whenever |
| 21:09.06 | JeffM | add one to your cart, it'll estimate it |
| 21:09.11 | Winny | k |
| 21:09.16 | JeffM | it'll all hooked up to real live USPS rates |
| 21:10.42 | JeffM | i guess I can add some more domestic shiping options :) |
| 21:11.45 | Winny | rofl, 9$ for a 5$ item |
| 21:11.58 | JeffM | thats less then I expected |
| 21:12.21 | JeffM | you are cheaper then the rest of the world at 11$ |
| 21:13.36 | JeffM | I could get DTR and myself to sign it, if you wanted ;) |
| 21:14.21 | Winny | hehe |
| 21:14.29 | brlcad | ooh ooh |
| 21:14.33 | brlcad | can I have a signed copy? |
| 21:14.35 | Winny | DO I get paid for a damadged CD then? ;) |
| 21:14.43 | JeffM | no |
| 21:14.46 | JeffM | brlcad, sure |
| 21:15.02 | JeffM | Winny, tho I'm going to wrap them in carboard |
| 21:15.08 | JeffM | that should help |
| 21:15.14 | brlcad | with no phallic markings on the disc |
| 21:15.17 | Thumper_ | limited edition signed copies... $30 :) |
| 21:15.24 | JeffM | Thumper_, thought about it |
| 21:15.28 | Winny | Thumper_: ultimate edition! |
| 21:15.49 | JeffM | need to have Erroneous look over the final disk layout |
| 21:15.58 | JeffM | but I plan on printing up a batch of labels today |
| 21:16.34 | Thumper_ | "Limited Edition Erroneous Signed BZFlag Disc" ... except that sounds like it's supposed to be defective ;) |
| 21:16.47 | JeffM | hence why I said DTR ;) |
| 21:16.49 | brlcad | or at least signed incorrectly |
| 21:17.00 | brlcad | BZlfag |
| 21:17.30 | Winny | rofl |
| 21:21.50 | donny_baker | JeffM: need to get the checkout success Sample Text changed :P |
| 21:22.01 | JeffM | donny_baker, what does it say now? |
| 21:22.11 | JeffM | I rememberd that I had to do that |
| 21:22.15 | JeffM | but I foggot where it was |
| 21:22.25 | donny_baker | This file is located in /languages/english/html_includes/classic/ |
| 21:22.31 | JeffM | thanks |
| 21:22.35 | donny_baker | np |
| 21:22.39 | JeffM | I didn't want to buy another thing to just find out where |
| 21:23.48 | Winny | JeffM, like the target on this one any better? http://bzfusion.net/bzflag/shirts/difftarget.jpg |
| 21:23.52 | donny_baker | yay... I was purchase 5 :P |
| 21:25.47 | donny_baker | and the password reset feature works, if you hadn't tested that yet |
| 21:27.01 | Winny | haha |
| 21:27.07 | Winny | I could get one, and use it as a robe |
| 21:27.26 | Winny | or coat |
| 21:27.40 | donny_baker | i have lost 20 lbs in the last 5 weeks... so I am zeroing in on the XL (and may already fit) |
| 21:27.56 | JeffM | heh |
| 21:27.57 | Winny | :o |
| 21:28.08 | JeffM | the checkout page should now have better text |
| 21:28.23 | donny_baker | ~JeffM++ |
| 21:28.34 | Erroneous | donny_baker: didn't IDO say he was a 3XL? |
| 21:28.37 | Winny | SOMEONE SAID THAT 3 SECONDS AGO |
| 21:28.39 | Winny | ugh |
| 21:28.41 | donny_baker | yeah |
| 21:28.46 | Winny | ~JeffM++ |
| 21:28.48 | Winny | there |
| 21:28.57 | JeffM | sadly I have to charge more for the XXL + ones :( |
| 21:29.24 | JeffM | Erroneous, we have an oder to ship, you want to build the autorun for that disk? |
| 21:29.28 | donny_baker | by the time you have them printed I'm hoping not to need one :) |
| 21:29.42 | JeffM | donny_baker, what color case do you want? |
| 21:29.48 | Erroneous | JeffM: hmm. probably should, but I'm a bit busy at the moment :) |
| 21:29.49 | donny_baker | surprise me |
| 21:29.53 | Winny | hot pink! |
| 21:29.56 | JeffM | blue, red, green, purple, or hunter |
| 21:30.03 | donny_baker | hunter |
| 21:30.03 | JeffM | the red ones are somewhat pink |
| 21:30.05 | Erroneous | no rabbit? :) |
| 21:30.11 | Winny | JeffM: no brown? |
| 21:30.11 | JeffM | they didn't have clear ones |
| 21:30.16 | JeffM | brown is not a team |
| 21:30.19 | Winny | so? |
| 21:30.20 | Winny | :P |
| 21:30.22 | ts | brown..eek |
| 21:30.30 | Winny | we could look like giant zunes! |
| 21:31.02 | ts | What was tank colour in rabbit mode? Orange? |
| 21:31.09 | JeffM | yeah |
| 21:31.15 | JeffM | I have orange cases :) |
| 21:31.17 | Winny | JeffM, what was the link to the color chart again? |
| 21:31.44 | ts | Pink..I doubt guys would wear it. |
| 21:31.44 | JeffM | http://www.imprintablecatalog.com/catalog/search/?category=A&mill=42&style=2000 |
| 21:31.57 | JeffM | ts, we were saying the color of the CD case |
| 21:32.01 | JeffM | not the shirt |
| 21:32.07 | ts | Ah..sorry |
| 21:32.07 | JeffM | you can not order shirts yet |
| 21:32.10 | JeffM | ;) |
| 21:32.23 | JeffM | tho they are in the upcoming products ;) |
| 21:32.34 | JeffM | we may go with a black shirt |
| 21:32.39 | JeffM | depends on the deign |
| 21:32.44 | Winny | Ohh, this isn't the shirt color |
| 21:32.53 | JeffM | CD case |
| 21:33.01 | JeffM | donny_baker purchased a CD |
| 21:33.22 | JeffM | I got a number of colored slimline CD cases that kinda match team colors |
| 21:33.38 | donny_baker | JeffM: could the store be set up to male a straight donation also? just a thought |
| 21:33.48 | donny_baker | s/male/make/ |
| 21:33.50 | JeffM | donny_baker, yes we could |
| 21:34.11 | JeffM | I can do "virtual" products that don't have shiping addreses |
| 21:34.25 | JeffM | perhaps I'll do one for a cool rank on the boards ;) |
| 21:35.00 | ts | Well, we could order a few kisses, Sean isn't picky I read :) |
| 21:35.19 | donny_baker | oh, i bet you would have quite a few taers on that |
| 21:35.24 | Winny | JeffM: would that rank be "sucker"? |
| 21:35.38 | donny_baker | "donator" |
| 21:35.39 | Winny | ;) |
| 21:38.35 | Winny | JeffM: http://bzfusion.net/bzflag/shirts/DiffTarget.png (Probably more distinguisable as a target) |
| 21:38.45 | JeffM | "Friend to humanity and all around good guy" |
| 21:39.23 | JeffM | and maybe we could set up a donator only bzfs server :) |
| 21:40.49 | Winny | :o |
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| 21:46.04 | Winny | JeffM, you said the shirt and hoodie ship seperately, right? |
| 21:48.05 | JeffM | they would yeah |
| 21:48.18 | JeffM | I haven't figured out the final price on the hoodies yet |
| 21:48.36 | JeffM | Erroneous, weigh your sweatshirt |
| 21:48.50 | Erroneous | heh |
| 21:48.52 | JeffM | Winny, I'm betting I can shove one into a flat rate box |
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| 21:49.39 | JeffM | Winny, I'll have to see, I may be able to shove them in the same box |
| 21:49.44 | JeffM | we have the boxes down there |
| 21:49.48 | Winny | ok |
| 21:49.58 | JeffM | we'll shove Erroneous's sweatshirt into a box tonight |
| 21:50.01 | JeffM | and see |
| 21:57.22 | Wyk3d | http://opentnl.sourceforge.net/doxydocs/ |
| 21:58.24 | Wyk3d | custom protocol called "Notify" (not udp or tcp) for extremely low bandwidth usage, high security like public key cryptography comes standard |
| 21:58.58 | Wyk3d | compression |
| 22:00.58 | Wyk3d | seems quite alright for an efficient auth daemon :) |
| 22:00.58 | JeffM | Wyk3d, yeah TNL is "interesting" |
| 22:01.17 | JeffM | you want to use TNL just for auth? |
| 22:01.37 | JeffM | TNLs strong points are in it's game related things |
| 22:01.47 | JeffM | RPC, network shared objects, etc.. |
| 22:01.59 | Wyk3d | well i was just googling for network libs actually :) |
| 22:02.02 | JeffM | it's a very powerfull networking system that would redo a lot of how BZ comunicates |
| 22:03.14 | Wyk3d | i know it was designed for games but it seems alright for servers .. at least at a first glanc |
| 22:03.30 | JeffM | I would not use it for the auth server |
| 22:03.37 | JeffM | the transport to the auth server is not the problem |
| 22:03.41 | JeffM | it is the server backend |
| 22:03.51 | JeffM | bandwith to the list is not too bad |
| 22:04.16 | Wyk3d | ok so I guess we'd go with TCP then |
| 22:04.22 | JeffM | Wyk3d, I would recomend that you start by Identifying WHAT the problem is |
| 22:04.26 | JeffM | not finding a solution first |
| 22:04.48 | JeffM | I could even see staying wiht HTTP as a trasport, it is not horible |
| 22:05.07 | JeffM | and no mater what we have to have an HTTP interface for old games |
| 22:06.33 | Wyk3d | well i'm just confused because some of the statements i've heard so far conflict |
| 22:06.50 | Wyk3d | brlcad said "bzauthd could talk over a completely different (custom) protocol if it has to, something lightweight between the it and the client/servers" |
| 22:06.53 | JeffM | that may be because we have been talking about a number of difrent thing |
| 22:06.55 | blast007 | enen PHP could work for the auth system, since it supports LDAP. but a C/C++ app could be more efficient |
| 22:07.20 | JeffM | Wyk3d, notice the term "could" |
| 22:07.24 | JeffM | in there |
| 22:07.40 | JeffM | he is just saying there are many ways |
| 22:07.46 | JeffM | the thing to do is to find out what way is BEST |
| 22:07.47 | JeffM | and why |
| 22:07.56 | Wyk3d | you're right.. it seemed to imply a "should" but i guess that' just my misunderstanding |
| 22:07.58 | JeffM | to do that you have to find out what is wrong with the current system |
| 22:08.06 | blast007 | or keep the old list/auth system around, and modify th backend to work with the new system |
| 22:08.09 | brlcad | Wyk3d: yeah, there are presently two different networking "layers" in bz .. one is game chatter that is low-latency, high-performance, etc .. mostly udp plus sprinkled tcp -- that's where raknet or tnl or a few other libs are relevant |
| 22:08.15 | JeffM | personaly I don't think the actual transport to the clients/servers is the problem |
| 22:08.23 | brlcad | bzauthd has little/nothing to do with the game chatter layer |
| 22:08.24 | JeffM | it is the backend of how that is done |
| 22:08.52 | JeffM | a C++ web server could probably be nearly as efficent as a C++ app using TNL |
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| 22:09.04 | JeffM | since we only use a fraction of HTML |
| 22:09.15 | JeffM | but that's what you'd have to research |
| 22:09.23 | JeffM | if I were you I'd look at what we do now |
| 22:09.32 | JeffM | and see where you can find the weak points |
| 22:09.47 | JeffM | brlcad, that may be, but I don't think it is the worst thing we do |
| 22:10.13 | JeffM | his first step should be to understand what we do now |
| 22:10.19 | JeffM | then what our needs are |
| 22:10.25 | brlcad | it's not, but still is a design weakness to me, additional complexity with no measured feature benefit |
| 22:10.33 | JeffM | true |
| 22:10.47 | JeffM | it would be nice if a final design got rid of all weaknesses |
| 22:11.07 | JeffM | and it is somethign to consider in said final design |
| 22:11.12 | JeffM | but it is only one part |
| 22:11.25 | JeffM | TNL has a fair amount of overhead |
| 22:11.44 | JeffM | I'd bet it takes as much time for it's data pack/unpack as it would to do http |
| 22:11.51 | JeffM | where a raw TCP data squirt would be fine |
| 22:12.17 | JeffM | TNL is a lot more then a socket wraper ;) |
| 22:12.28 | brlcad | the networking can happen over a variety of layers, that much doesn't really seem to be a big deal to me (for bzauthd) as that part doesn't have the same performance requirements |
| 22:12.49 | JeffM | indeed |
| 22:13.09 | brlcad | from what I understand, nobody is proposing to change the game chatter layer anytime soon |
| 22:13.19 | brlcad | just the list server auth portion |
| 22:13.27 | JeffM | yeah |
| 22:13.56 | JeffM | TNL would be great for client <->game server |
| 22:14.04 | brlcad | yeah, or at least great to test out |
| 22:14.15 | JeffM | we could get rid of messages and do it all as shared network objects :) |
| 22:14.17 | brlcad | see what the performance/scalability looks like |
| 22:14.29 | JeffM | tanks would jsut magicaly update states |
| 22:14.40 | brlcad | ugh |
| 22:14.53 | JeffM | we'd have to rewrite a ton of stuff |
| 22:14.54 | brlcad | network "objects" often have massive hidden performance hits |
| 22:15.03 | JeffM | brlcad, they can |
| 22:15.11 | JeffM | TNL dosn't do a half bad job at it |
| 22:15.28 | JeffM | you can tell it that it's a fast moving player type object and it streamlines |
| 22:15.40 | JeffM | TNL is basicly the network layer from tribes2 |
| 22:15.40 | brlcad | they often 'do' is my point, if TNL provides that as a service, maybe it wouldn't be so bad |
| 22:16.03 | brlcad | I meant more implementing one would suck, that's not easy to get right |
| 22:16.11 | JeffM | yeah they provide it as a service |
| 22:16.33 | JeffM | hence why I say i'ts a LOT more then a socket wraper |
| 22:17.04 | brlcad | is this to solve a non-issue or cause new problems? :) |
| 22:17.32 | brlcad | our problems are with the procotol itself, the game logic, not the chatter |
| 22:17.45 | JeffM | he was thinking of using it to talk to the list server |
| 22:17.51 | JeffM | I was saying TNL Is overkill for that |
| 22:18.16 | JeffM | and then I said if we did use it, it would be for game stuff |
| 22:18.20 | JeffM | since that is what it is made for |
| 22:18.34 | JeffM | not something as simple as talking to a list server to get a token ;) |
| 22:18.48 | brlcad | i agree that TNL is overkill for list server chatter, way overkill |
| 22:19.51 | brlcad | I'd use bz's existing simple socket layer before that, less burden |
| 22:20.48 | brlcad | at least until there's testing infrastructure in place to test something like a TNL move for the game chatter (which would be a huge risky deal, imho .. to be proceeded with extreme caution) |
| 22:24.48 | brlcad | Wyk3d: for a proposal, I'd suggest just not specifying the communications layer itself, that much shouldn't be a big deal -- the higher-level issues are how it communicates (with what, what's the protocol), what if any subsystems are involved (ldap, mysql, text files on backend, etc), what languages you'd approach this from, and implementation phases |
| 22:26.08 | Wyk3d | will do |
| 22:26.11 | brlcad | I can say that a lot of this has been discussed before (to *great* lengths), but little code written so 1) it's not set in stone and you have lots of flexibility and 2) lots of people have thought about the needs and what fulfills those needs well (so you might not have a lot of flexibility after all) ;) |
| 22:27.31 | brlcad | this hasn't been updated in a long while, but there are some thoughts on it here: http://my.bzflag.org/w/BZAuthd |
| 22:27.36 | Wyk3d | in general excuse me if I tend to suggest "too efficient" solutions cause i'm used to working in environments where that's a necessity |
| 22:28.14 | brlcad | caveat that some things in that wiki page may be *completely* wrong/bad to do or were decided not important for any first-phase work, for example, so read with caution/skepticism |
| 22:28.54 | brlcad | Wyk3d: the only complaint with "too efficient" is if that efficiency comes with other practical costs |
| 22:29.40 | brlcad | adding a new dependency to the package (TNL, Raknet, whatever) all have a burden associated .. there's not much benefit or justification when there are already two entirely separate networking layers already coupled |
| 22:30.08 | Wyk3d | well i wouldn't sacrifice too much efficiency for elegance / maintainability ofcourse |
| 22:30.17 | brlcad | (i.e. our custom tcp/udp layer used for game chatter, and the http-based libcurl layer) |
| 22:30.28 | Wyk3d | *i WOULD .. |
| 22:30.48 | Wyk3d | sorry i said the opposite of what i meant =) |
| 22:31.02 | brlcad | heh, no idea what you really meant now, but have a good idea ;) |
| 22:31.05 | *** join/#bzflag spldart (n=vircuser@c-98-197-19-35.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) |
| 22:31.07 | brlcad | er, yeah ;) |
| 22:31.55 | Wyk3d | so in general things should be maintainable, elegant, clean and such .. besides efficient |
| 22:42.32 | JeffM | unmaintainable code is worse then no code ;) |
| 22:42.46 | Wyk3d | 100% agreed |
| 22:43.06 | JeffM | if I were you I'd start by writing down how we do what we do now |
| 22:43.17 | JeffM | and then what our future needs are |
| 22:43.26 | JeffM | then make a list of the weaknesses in our current system |
| 22:43.48 | *** join/#bzflag Good (n=47cad667@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 22:43.49 | JeffM | then you can brainstorm ideas that would fix the weaknesses as well as solve the needs. |
| 22:44.02 | JeffM | then you can find soltuons that meet them :) |
| 22:45.17 | Wyk3d | ok i'll keep that in mind ;) |
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| 23:05.22 | [dmp] | Is there any usage restriction on the tank-logo? (http://my.bzflag.org/wiki/images/9/9c/Bzflag-48x48.png) |
| 23:05.38 | Winny | Isn't it LGPL To? |
| 23:05.39 | JeffM | no, it's LGPL just like the rest of the game |
| 23:05.47 | Winny | LGPL, too* |
| 23:05.53 | JeffM | whatcha want to do with it? |
| 23:06.05 | [dmp] | use it as a launch icon |
| 23:06.13 | [dmp] | for a application |
| 23:06.13 | JeffM | tis what it is there for ;) |
| 23:06.27 | JeffM | just don't clame you made it ;) |
| 23:06.29 | [dmp] | Just making sure, before lawyers tell me :) |
| 23:06.41 | JeffM | yeah basicly you can't claim you made it |
| 23:06.54 | JeffM | and if you modify it, you have to also provide the "sources" for your mods |
| 23:06.55 | [dmp] | people wouldnt belive me anyhow |
| 23:06.57 | *** join/#bzflag QuantumB (n=QuantumB@72.190.49.139) |
| 23:07.04 | JeffM | but for an image that would be the image itself |
| 23:08.24 | [dmp] | is there a larger version of that logo? |
| 23:09.13 | JeffM | shuld be a 256 one in the data dir |
| 23:09.38 | Winny | http://bzfusion.net/bzflag/bzicon_red.png <-- dunno if that's any bigger |
| 23:09.42 | Winny | forget where I got it |
| 23:10.02 | JeffM | from saturos |
| 23:10.16 | Winny | yeah, but I don't remember the link from where I downloaded it |
| 23:10.30 | JeffM | he recently linked it to me here IIRC |
| 23:10.36 | JeffM | that's the bigest he has |
| 23:10.49 | [dmp] | its perfect :) |
| 23:11.16 | JeffM | [dmp], what license is your launcher released under? |
| 23:13.19 | *** join/#bzflag Naveedbzflag (n=4c5d8bae@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 23:13.26 | [dmp] | JeffM: MIT |
| 23:13.47 | JeffM | then you will hit all the requrements we have |
| 23:14.05 | JeffM | you just may want to say 'some elementes are from bzflag... and are LGPL' |
| 23:14.09 | Naveedbzflag | CAN SOME ONE GET ATTENTION TO WHODAMAN PLZ???? |
| 23:14.14 | JeffM | Naveedbzflag, wow |
| 23:14.22 | Naveedbzflag | Im serious |
| 23:14.23 | JeffM | Naveedbzflag, send him a PM on the forums |
| 23:14.24 | Naveedbzflag | Im serious |
| 23:14.25 | Winny | Talking in non caps works well :) |
| 23:14.26 | Naveedbzflag | Im serious |
| 23:14.29 | Naveedbzflag | Im serious i did |
| 23:14.30 | Naveedbzflag | Im serious i did |
| 23:14.31 | Winny | stop spamming |
| 23:14.34 | Naveedbzflag | srry |
| 23:14.36 | JeffM | once is fine |
| 23:14.39 | Winny | What is so urgent? |
| 23:14.40 | Naveedbzflag | computer froze |
| 23:14.45 | Winny | Perhaps one of us can help? |
| 23:14.46 | JeffM | then it is his choice to respond to you |
| 23:14.50 | Naveedbzflag | ok |
| 23:14.52 | JeffM | you can not demand anything of anyone |
| 23:14.57 | JeffM | but yes, what is the issue? |
| 23:15.18 | Naveedbzflag | well my brother decided to screw everything up and he made me get kicked out one of my fav....servers |
| 23:15.30 | Winny | heh, your "brother", right. |
| 23:15.31 | Naveedbzflag | which is 05.bztank.net:5158 |
| 23:15.32 | JeffM | then you wait for him to get back |
| 23:15.34 | Naveedbzflag | dude |
| 23:15.35 | JeffM | or to answer you |
| 23:15.44 | JeffM | if he dosn't want to, you play on another server |
| 23:15.46 | Naveedbzflag | i waited for like 3 days and yeah |
| 23:15.50 | JeffM | so? |
| 23:15.52 | spldart | Relax, it's quite safe here |
| 23:15.54 | Naveedbzflag | but i love that server |
| 23:16.05 | JeffM | well then you should have protected your account better |
| 23:16.09 | Winny | Then you shoudn't of let your "brother" screw it up |
| 23:16.10 | JeffM | stuff happens |
| 23:16.14 | JeffM | Winny, be nice |
| 23:16.23 | JeffM | people do have brothers |
| 23:16.30 | spldart | Lend your broh the keys and.. well :) |
| 23:16.32 | JeffM | it is not our place to decide if he is telling the truth or not |
| 23:16.40 | JeffM | but the server owners |
| 23:16.54 | JeffM | Naveedbzflag, you have contacted him. all you can do now is wait |
| 23:17.09 | JeffM | bugging people not involved in the situation will only make it worse for you |
| 23:18.00 | Winny | You could always contact another admin, too |
| 23:18.08 | JeffM | or the owner |
| 23:18.16 | JeffM | unless he is the owner |
| 23:18.20 | Winny | http://bztank.net/adminlist.php |
| 23:18.27 | JeffM | if so then an other admin won't want to overide the owner |
| 23:19.12 | Winny | Yeah, if that's who I think it is, he came onto my server, spammed a bad word, and then less then 20 seconds later I had a PM saying "my sister did it plz unban me plzz" |
| 23:19.27 | JeffM | then best to tell that to the owner ;) |
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| 23:19.36 | JeffM | bans being private and all |
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