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| 00:30.38 | *** join/#bzflag Ragzouken (n=ragzouke@90.240.88.114) |
| 00:31.30 | Ragzouken | Is it possible to do the equivilent of alt-tabbing out of bzflag, when using the linux version? |
| 00:31.48 | Ragzouken | more specifically using Ubuntu and Gnome |
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| 00:36.01 | L4m3r | Ragzouken, try F4 |
| 00:36.54 | Ragzouken | thanks |
| 00:39.43 | L4m3r | JeffM, I think you, of just about everyone in the channel, has the least to worry about |
| 00:39.52 | L4m3r | You've got a system that should handle it no sweat |
| 00:39.54 | L4m3r | :P |
| 00:40.02 | L4m3r | beyond that it's just "yeah, whatever" |
| 00:40.32 | JeffM | L4m3r, I have to debug our app under it |
| 00:40.47 | L4m3r | :o |
| 00:45.00 | donny_baker | JeffM: you should be.. I've switched back |
| 00:45.11 | donny_baker | couldn't take it anymore |
| 00:45.46 | donny_baker | good luck ;) |
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| 01:05.15 | JeffM | I'm set to dual boot |
| 01:06.14 | JeffM | so it's not that bad |
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| 01:27.33 | donny_baker | JeffM: if i might make a suggestion for testing/debugging an app |
| 01:27.42 | donny_baker | I swear by VMWareWorkstation |
| 01:28.11 | donny_baker | easy to roll system back to a known state |
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| 01:33.45 | Blue89 | have any of you ever had problems with the anaglyph mode? |
| 01:35.31 | JeffM | we own it |
| 01:35.48 | JeffM | but adding another drive isn't too bad ether ;) |
| 01:35.57 | Blue89 | I tried it before but I didn't have any hardware accelleration so I thought it would go faster if I left it off. I got the open radeon driver working and now if I turn anaglyph on I I end up with a screen that has no red |
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| 01:39.12 | blast007 | Blue89: have a screenshot? |
| 01:39.23 | blast007 | I'm uploading one that shows what it looks like for me |
| 01:39.46 | blast007 | Blue89: http://static.bzexcess.com/bzfi0159.png |
| 01:41.14 | JeffMVista | that looks normal |
| 01:41.57 | Winny | JeffMVista: thats from blast, not Blue89 |
| 01:42.07 | JeffMVista | I know |
| 01:42.09 | Winny | oh.. |
| 01:42.11 | JeffMVista | I can read ;) |
| 01:42.20 | JeffMVista | I'm just saying that his does indeed look correct |
| 01:42.22 | Blue89 | mine looks like that, but with no red at all. green and blue appear. it's like the left eye picture is not being rendered |
| 01:42.26 | Winny | oh |
| 01:42.28 | Winny | pft :p |
| 01:42.35 | JeffMVista | Blue89, probably driver then |
| 01:43.06 | JeffMVista | the open radion driver (DRI) sometimes dosn't support all features of a card |
| 01:43.15 | Macrosoft | Blue89: what open driver? the old one? |
| 01:43.15 | JeffMVista | cus this is my vista machine |
| 01:43.32 | Winny | JeffMVista: any problems with vista apparant at first look? |
| 01:43.42 | Blue89 | there are multiples? |
| 01:43.44 | JeffMVista | it looks like vista |
| 01:43.49 | Macrosoft | Winny: other than everything :P |
| 01:43.54 | JeffMVista | Blue89, there are many versions of DRI |
| 01:43.57 | JeffMVista | what card do you have? |
| 01:44.11 | Blue89 | mobility radeon M6 LY |
| 01:44.20 | Blue89 | and I have the radeon support turned on in the kernel |
| 01:44.23 | JeffMVista | hmmm, probalby not supported by the real ATI driver |
| 01:44.31 | JeffMVista | well sounds like a GL problem |
| 01:44.46 | blast007 | and just to compare: I'm just using an Intel 845 graphics chipset on XP |
| 01:44.55 | DTRemenak | ew |
| 01:44.59 | Blue89 | probably... I was hoping someone would have a second opinion |
| 01:45.11 | blast007 | DTRemenak :P |
| 01:45.18 | blast007 | it's not my gaming system by any means |
| 01:45.23 | blast007 | my other laptop has a 7600GT |
| 01:45.38 | JeffMVista | Blue89, as blast has shown with a proper GL implmentation it works |
| 01:45.49 | JeffMVista | a lot of our rendering is left up the driver |
| 01:46.01 | JeffMVista | and well, the dri driver has had problems in the past with a number of things |
| 01:46.15 | Macrosoft | Blue89: what distro are you on? |
| 01:46.45 | Blue89 | Gentoo here |
| 01:47.09 | Blue89 | it worked here with mesa soft rendering |
| 01:47.28 | JeffMVista | yeah mesa is actualy a good GL implemenation |
| 01:47.30 | JeffMVista | if not slow |
| 01:47.34 | Blue89 | but as soon as I got hw to work, I lost my left eye :-/ |
| 01:47.45 | Blue89 | I wish mesa was faster |
| 01:47.46 | JeffMVista | so what youv'e shown is that our code works, it's just your driver that dosn't |
| 01:47.52 | JeffMVista | it a laptop? |
| 01:47.57 | Blue89 | yes |
| 01:48.10 | JeffMVista | sucks |
| 01:48.23 | Blue89 | an older model toshiba satellite |
| 01:48.31 | Blue89 | tell me something I don't know ;-) |
| 01:48.35 | JeffMVista | basicly it's a bug in the driver, you can see if you can get a newer version |
| 01:48.54 | JeffMVista | the real ATI driver dosn't do that chipset, so DRI is all you got, or software. |
| 01:49.12 | blast007 | or Windows! |
| 01:49.20 | Blue89 | you better run ;-) |
| 01:49.23 | blast007 | hehe |
| 01:49.23 | JeffMVista | yeah the windows driver may be better |
| 01:49.26 | JeffMVista | honestly |
| 01:49.30 | JeffMVista | since it was made by ATI |
| 01:49.38 | JeffMVista | that may not work for your situation |
| 01:49.42 | JeffMVista | but it is a fact |
| 01:49.48 | DTRemenak | I don't see any relevant results from searching (usually dri bugs show up) so it's probably not been reported |
| 01:49.56 | JeffMVista | probalby not |
| 01:50.02 | DTRemenak | you should considering filing a bug report with them |
| 01:50.06 | JeffMVista | the anaglaph blending is not a common thing |
| 01:50.12 | JeffMVista | and should be easy for them to dupe |
| 01:50.19 | JeffMVista | if you can show them a good and bad screenshot |
| 01:50.24 | DTRemenak | anything bz does should be easy for them to dupe |
| 01:50.39 | DTRemenak | we actually end up as a pretty good gl test app |
| 01:52.01 | Blue89 | that and prboom ;-) |
| 01:53.08 | Macrosoft | not finding anything useful |
| 01:53.15 | Blue89 | :-/ |
| 01:53.21 | Blue89 | thanks for looking |
| 01:54.11 | Macrosoft | Blue89: try checking out a gentoo forum, there's got to be somebody who's had problems with that card before |
| 01:54.26 | blast007 | Macrosoft: or, just submit a bug to DRI ;) |
| 01:54.34 | blast007 | unlikely it's just Gentoo that has the problem |
| 01:56.02 | JeffMVista | gentoo dosn't write drivers ;) |
| 01:56.16 | Macrosoft | blast007: but there might be a different driver he can use that would work better than his current one. i dont know what drivers are available in gentoo for ati, so i cant help him there |
| 01:56.32 | JeffMVista | Macrosoft, ther eisn't |
| 01:56.32 | blast007 | Macrosoft: read the backlog |
| 01:56.41 | JeffMVista | it's DRI or nothin |
| 01:56.45 | Blue89 | I have only seen two |
| 01:56.51 | JeffMVista | the card is tool old for the ATI drivers |
| 01:56.57 | Blue89 | fglrx and the one in the kernel |
| 01:57.08 | Blue89 | I never got the fglrx one working |
| 01:57.14 | JeffMVista | fglrx is the one from ATI right? |
| 01:57.19 | Blue89 | yeah |
| 01:57.27 | JeffMVista | yeah your chipset is too old for that |
| 01:57.30 | Macrosoft | JeffMVista: yeah, its the closed-source driver |
| 01:57.37 | JeffMVista | yeah |
| 01:57.44 | Blue89 | >:-( |
| 01:58.01 | JeffMVista | if your card was suported, it would probably run better then DRI |
| 01:58.19 | Blue89 | that's what I was thinking :-/ |
| 01:58.31 | JeffMVista | best thing you can do is report it |
| 01:58.39 | JeffMVista | to the DRI people and help them get it fixed |
| 02:00.19 | Macrosoft | yeah, the oldest mobility radeon supported by fglrx is the 9500 |
| 02:02.36 | JeffMVista | can the laptop and get one with an nvidia card :) |
| 02:03.37 | Macrosoft | ...pretty doorstop |
| 02:03.51 | Blue89 | oooooh, aaaaaaah |
| 02:04.02 | Blue89 | 8-) |
| 02:04.26 | Blue89 | before I would get another laptop, I would build a monsterous desktop |
| 02:04.53 | Blue89 | but not today |
| 02:05.09 | Macrosoft | Blue89: a monsterous desktop takes a monsterous load of money |
| 02:05.28 | Macrosoft | over $700 for an 8800ultra |
| 02:05.43 | JeffMVista | get a GT |
| 02:05.55 | Macrosoft | ...although newegg stopped selling them for sime reason |
| 02:05.59 | JeffMVista | lot cheaper, roughtly same speed |
| 02:06.01 | Macrosoft | *some |
| 02:06.53 | Blue89 | I actually got my hands on a Sharp Zaurus, so I have no need for a laptop. (well, except for the fact that mesa soft won't play bzflag fast enough) |
| 02:07.34 | Macrosoft | Blue89: if you were really crazy, you would sli two 8800ultra's |
| 02:07.58 | Blue89 | HMD with two cards? ;-) |
| 02:08.09 | Blue89 | all that power for bzflag X-D |
| 02:08.19 | Macrosoft | Blue89: i hear that sli actually worls in linux, too |
| 02:08.24 | Macrosoft | *works |
| 02:08.34 | JeffMVista | SLI isn't all that it's cracked up to be |
| 02:08.54 | Macrosoft | JeffMVista: im not planning on using it |
| 02:09.14 | Macrosoft | when do the geforce 9 series release? |
| 02:09.19 | JeffMVista | yet your hawking it like they are paying you |
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| 02:33.38 | thatexploding | JeffM: you there? |
| 02:33.59 | JeffMVista | ya |
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| 03:24.43 | JeffMFishbone | yay only one BSOD so far :) |
| 03:27.20 | Winny | seriously? already? |
| 03:27.22 | Winny | sheesh |
| 03:28.14 | JeffMFishbone | installing older apps |
| 03:28.31 | Winny | still no excuse :p |
| 03:28.31 | JeffMFishbone | 2 at the same time :) |
| 03:29.19 | JeffMFishbone | probablys houdn't be using SS 6 under vista ether |
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| 03:48.54 | Macrosoft | oh noez, they took out all three jeffs |
| 03:53.13 | Winny | lol |
| 03:53.26 | Winny | the horror! ;) |
| 03:56.19 | eTangenT | Jeff's using Vista now? |
| 03:56.27 | eTangenT | Looks like he's having a great time with it, too. :-\ |
| 03:56.50 | blast007 | eTangenT: my Vista works just great |
| 03:57.00 | eTangenT | blast007: I'm sure it's not all bad. |
| 03:57.08 | eTangenT | I just started getting comfortable with XP though. |
| 03:57.14 | eTangenT | I won't change over... at least for a while. |
| 03:57.31 | eTangenT | This machine will handle it (dunno if you knew that I am not using that piece of crap laptop anymore) |
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| 04:06.02 | blast007 | spldart: really, it's not that bad |
| 04:06.36 | spldart | I was one of the late beta testers... I really did not like it :( |
| 04:06.43 | brlcad | nor is a gunshot to the forehead, you don't feel a thing |
| 04:06.53 | blast007 | brlcad: pfft |
| 04:09.00 | brlcad | I suppose we all have our own varying degrees of what constitutes 'bad', annoying, and unacceptible (says captain obvious) |
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| 04:15.38 | Winny | JeffM: more vista fun? |
| 04:16.11 | JeffM | naw, I left work |
| 04:16.22 | JeffM | I'm at camilles now waiting for my greek pizza |
| 04:16.41 | JeffM | so far other then that one issue and one hell of a slow install, vista hasn't been half bad |
| 04:16.42 | spldart | greek pizza?... how does that differ from generic? |
| 04:17.02 | JeffM | after I made it not look like congealed ass |
| 04:17.21 | JeffM | fetta cheeze, chicken, etc.. |
| 04:17.46 | JeffM | aero is pointless |
| 04:19.41 | blast007 | it's funny... Compiz Fusion looks better and runs faster than Aero |
| 04:19.57 | JeffM | spldart, http://www.camillescafe.com/admin/cafelocations/images/menu.pdf at the bottom "zorba the greez" pizza |
| 04:20.00 | blast007 | Aero looks like a toy in comparison |
| 04:20.03 | Macrosoft | blast007: if by funny, you meant sad |
| 04:20.12 | blast007 | Macrosoft: both |
| 04:20.25 | JeffM | I have no need for flashy effects that take time to bring up a dialog, in any OS ;) |
| 04:20.34 | Macrosoft | ouch, loud ping is loud |
| 04:20.42 | blast007 | heh |
| 04:21.02 | blast007 | JeffM: in my linux, I have that on complete overkill |
| 04:21.08 | blast007 | well, at least for minimizing and closing |
| 04:21.14 | JeffM | heh |
| 04:21.16 | blast007 | on close, I have the windows burn away |
| 04:21.24 | JeffM | I don't need to wait for an open dialog to come up ;) |
| 04:21.25 | blast007 | and on minimize, they teleport out |
| 04:21.42 | Macrosoft | mine doesnt work to well, the window borders dissappear when i enable compiz |
| 04:21.59 | Macrosoft | no title bar buttons, etc |
| 04:21.59 | blast007 | Macrosoft: do you have window decorations turned on in Compiz? |
| 04:22.14 | Macrosoft | yes, |
| 04:22.24 | blast007 | what distro? |
| 04:22.29 | Macrosoft | ubuntu |
| 04:22.33 | blast007 | 7.10? |
| 04:22.36 | Macrosoft | yep |
| 04:22.37 | blast007 | works fine for me |
| 04:22.58 | blast007 | maybe blow away your config for Compiz |
| 04:23.01 | spldart | JeffM> looks interesting in tasted... Wish I could try a slice |
| 04:23.12 | spldart | .. meh.. .extra 'd' |
| 04:23.14 | Macrosoft | its not version specific, i had the same problem on feisty |
| 04:24.24 | Macrosoft | using nvidia binary |
| 04:24.31 | spldart | Meh.. blast.. you go for the extra effects? |
| 04:25.29 | blast007 | spldart: sure, why not? I'm dual booting Ubuntu and Vista... might as well make both of them slow |
| 04:26.15 | blast007 | spldart: heh, I don't think my 7600GT is breaking a sweat |
| 04:26.18 | JeffM | spldart, why waste the hardware that can accelerate the drawing? |
| 04:26.29 | JeffM | it makes sens to use GL for it all |
| 04:26.32 | JeffM | less CPU time |
| 04:26.49 | JeffM | the problem is doing MORE then just drawing an x in a box ;) |
| 04:27.40 | spldart | All those frilly's require some DD by the card right? |
| 04:28.11 | blast007 | DD? |
| 04:28.28 | Macrosoft | spldart: dri, you mean? |
| 04:28.34 | blast007 | DiretDraw? |
| 04:28.35 | spldart | Vista still runs direct x right? Direct Draw accell |
| 04:28.55 | Macrosoft | spldart: it needs direct rendering, if thats what you mean |
| 04:29.27 | blast007 | spldart: DirectDraw is pretty much dead |
| 04:29.30 | Macrosoft | screenie of compiz weirdness: http://mdk0.servegame.com/compiz.png |
| 04:29.35 | JeffM | d3d is used |
| 04:29.38 | JeffM | on vista |
| 04:29.41 | JeffM | on others it's GL |
| 04:29.50 | spldart | I had to disable DD recently on a win xp driver on nvidia because of bad driver... noticed that all xp frilly's and even playing video required much more cpu since the vid card wasn't handling it |
| 04:29.54 | JeffM | but still using the 3d API makes sense |
| 04:29.55 | blast007 | Direct3D is what is used most often, even for some 2D stuff, because it's usually faster |
| 04:30.23 | JeffM | blast007, most drivers implemnt old direct draw in the 3d hardware anyway |
| 04:30.39 | Macrosoft | backwards compatability, ftw |
| 04:30.51 | JeffM | on the 8000 series, the card is basicly just a ton of shader units, and GL/D3d are just a bunch of premade shader programs |
| 04:31.46 | Macrosoft | blast007: whats the name of the app for config'ing compiz |
| 04:32.03 | spldart | BTW... Noticed something interesting.... 5200 FX kicks the 6200 A-LE's butt in gaming... better image and resolution... I was surprised |
| 04:32.34 | Macrosoft | spldart: using same resolution? |
| 04:32.34 | JeffM | the LE is bus limited |
| 04:32.45 | JeffM | 64 bit bus vs/ 128 |
| 04:32.52 | JeffM | the LE is a low end card |
| 04:33.18 | JeffM | it dosn't stand for "limted edition" ;) |
| 04:33.25 | JeffM | it just means it's using the 6k archetecture |
| 04:33.33 | JeffM | instead of the 5k |
| 04:34.36 | Macrosoft | ballmer got 'im |
| 04:35.17 | spldart | Same everything else Macro |
| 04:36.18 | spldart | That's what I get for huggin' the kids goodnight..... People sign off. hehehe |
| 04:36.30 | spldart | Welp.. nighty night |
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| 06:54.04 | JeffM | did ares get updated? |
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| 09:29.57 | wert613 | mmm |
| 09:30.19 | wert613 | The forums seem to have no way to recover my account after I misspelled my email adress... |
| 09:31.05 | wert613 | It is "Gravel" =D |
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| 16:37.49 | SportChick | hi snick |
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| 16:37.58 | randomparticle | hi sporty |
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| 17:01.34 | JeffM | yay for windows XP :) |
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| 18:38.43 | JeffM | so CBG you done with BZFlag the fourms say? |
| 18:45.45 | JeffM | time to see if 2.99 builds out of the box on vista :) |
| 18:45.58 | ruskie | lol |
| 18:46.11 | Constitution | made the jump, eh? |
| 18:46.23 | JeffM | dual boot |
| 18:46.25 | JeffM | for work |
| 18:46.30 | Constitution | ah |
| 18:46.36 | JeffM | our software is building in another instance so I can debug a problem |
| 18:46.58 | JeffM | and I can't use incredebuild so it's taking forver :( |
| 18:47.10 | Erroneous | why can't you use IB? |
| 18:47.15 | JeffM | license |
| 18:47.16 | Erroneous | should be able to use the same license |
| 18:47.21 | JeffM | difrent machine name |
| 18:47.28 | Erroneous | they're transferable |
| 18:47.34 | JeffM | I'd hav to go to the server and transfer each reboot |
| 18:47.39 | Erroneous | yup |
| 18:47.42 | JeffM | if I stay in vista I will move it |
| 18:47.47 | Erroneous | but it wouldn't take forever :) |
| 18:48.04 | JeffM | I don't have admin I'd have to bug Jeremy each time |
| 18:48.06 | Erroneous | and I'm actually logged in to build right now, I can move them about if you need |
| 18:48.07 | JeffM | figured just do a normal build |
| 18:48.11 | JeffM | it's ok |
| 18:48.17 | JeffM | it's nearly done |
| 18:48.36 | JeffM | I will have to bug you to help fix the errors tho, looks like Jim's GL stuff has problems |
| 18:48.43 | Erroneous | mmm, fun |
| 18:48.53 | JeffM | : error C4430: missing type specifier - int assumed. Note: C++ does not support default-int |
| 18:49.01 | Erroneous | yup, that's a common one |
| 18:49.20 | JeffM | it's still building so no rush |
| 18:49.35 | JeffM | I still have to do the environ vars, but I forgot what they were :) |
| 18:49.39 | Syd_Barrett | anyone ever get bzflag built on linux on ps2? |
| 18:49.59 | JeffM | has anyone even tried? |
| 18:50.03 | JeffM | it'd just be software |
| 18:50.15 | JeffM | is there an SDL Port for it? |
| 18:51.02 | Erroneous | it's just linux |
| 18:51.04 | Erroneous | not special |
| 18:51.15 | Erroneous | we'd build fine. software gl though. |
| 18:51.31 | Erroneous | ps2 controllers should be recognized by evdev |
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| 18:56.12 | JeffM | bahh, don't have directX |
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| 19:54.51 | noyb | did I overlook the 2.0.10 client for macosx? |
| 19:55.42 | CBG | JeffM: huh? |
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| 19:57.59 | whodaman- | noyb, you mean official bindary? |
| 19:58.20 | tankzilla | hey guys, there's an ongoing discussion about allowing people to build their own client modded to have fullscreen radar enabled (http://www.gamesunited.de/ib/index.php?showtopic=12681&st=0). I just want to ask you guys a few questions if you're not busy |
| 20:00.10 | brlcad | noyb: I've been away for the past week with holidays and stuff, haven't put the binary together yet |
| 20:02.21 | whodaman- | noyb, but the RC3 mac build is fine to |
| 20:02.45 | brlcad | yeah, it's not really going to be any different on the Mac other than a pretty background on the DMG |
| 20:04.25 | noyb | ah! Thanks. |
| 20:23.25 | brlcad | np |
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| 20:58.16 | tulcod | is there a decent api documentation anywhere? |
| 20:58.32 | blast007 | in the wiki |
| 20:58.35 | tulcod | I'd like to write a plugin, and am willing to move some data to the wiki |
| 20:58.42 | blast007 | http://my.bzflag.org/w/ |
| 20:58.43 | tulcod | but the wiki itself is pretty much just a list of some things |
| 20:58.49 | tulcod | not much explanation |
| 20:58.59 | blast007 | the wiki should be the same stuff that was in the original API docs |
| 20:59.07 | tulcod | oh? |
| 20:59.09 | tulcod | k then |
| 20:59.16 | tulcod | then I guess there won't be any better |
| 20:59.25 | tulcod | -> read that .h file :) |
| 20:59.36 | tulcod | thx blast007 |
| 20:59.48 | JeffM | tulcod, or just add to the wiki |
| 20:59.54 | JeffM | the wiki dosn't have to just be a list of some things |
| 21:00.06 | JeffM | it can be a lot more if people add to it |
| 21:00.08 | tulcod | JeffM: well, once I start discovering things, I'll probably add them to the wiki |
| 21:00.14 | JeffM | you can also ask here |
| 21:00.22 | tulcod | for now, I'm just building skeleton code |
| 21:00.26 | tulcod | so nothing interesting yet |
| 21:00.27 | JeffM | we do know a thing or 2 about the API ;) |
| 21:00.32 | tulcod | k :) |
| 21:00.51 | tulcod | JeffM: also about whether the idea of a trainer plugin has been put forward before? |
| 21:00.59 | JeffM | Erroneous, direct X SDK is on shaft, source drive, development |
| 21:01.07 | JeffM | tulcod, what you mean by that |
| 21:01.09 | JeffM | like tutorials? |
| 21:01.10 | brlcad | tulcod: there are several "example" plugins |
| 21:01.20 | brlcad | even very simple ones |
| 21:01.23 | JeffM | yeah or a sample of how to code? |
| 21:01.25 | tulcod | JeffM: well, a bit, yeah. for example, a world weapon which shoots at a tank with a certain interval |
| 21:01.27 | JeffM | or how to play? |
| 21:01.32 | JeffM | oh how to code |
| 21:01.39 | tulcod | how to play |
| 21:01.50 | JeffM | we need more API work for proper tutorials |
| 21:01.54 | tulcod | some exercises |
| 21:01.55 | JeffM | and yes I've thought a lot oabout it |
| 21:02.02 | tulcod | I mean like, playing exercises |
| 21:02.07 | JeffM | thats why 3.0 has server side players |
| 21:02.17 | tulcod | JeffM: is that gonna be released any time soon? |
| 21:02.17 | JeffM | or will have if they get finished |
| 21:02.23 | tulcod | ie, approximately? |
| 21:02.24 | JeffM | we don't do release dates |
| 21:02.28 | tulcod | will it take 3 more years? |
| 21:02.28 | JeffM | when it's ready |
| 21:02.32 | JeffM | maybe |
| 21:02.34 | JeffM | but probably not |
| 21:02.39 | tulcod | can it be released next month? |
| 21:02.44 | JeffM | we work on this on our free time |
| 21:02.44 | brlcad | maybe |
| 21:02.46 | brlcad | but probably not |
| 21:02.51 | blast007 | hehe |
| 21:02.54 | tulcod | k, so about 5 months, then? |
| 21:02.54 | JeffM | next month is just as likely as 3 years |
| 21:03.00 | JeffM | dude, we don't know |
| 21:03.02 | tulcod | :p |
| 21:03.15 | tulcod | JeffM: well, you don't know, but of course you have a generic idea of when it might be ready |
| 21:03.18 | brlcad | tulcod: it's *entirely* dependent on developer activity which fluctuates massively |
| 21:03.24 | JeffM | tulcod, no we don't |
| 21:03.25 | tulcod | ok |
| 21:03.33 | JeffM | we don't have a plan or schedule or antyhing |
| 21:03.38 | tulcod | did a lot change in the core? |
| 21:03.38 | JeffM | it's just when people pick to work on it |
| 21:03.48 | JeffM | depends what you mean by the core and by a lot? |
| 21:03.52 | tulcod | heh :p |
| 21:03.56 | JeffM | fair amount of the server backend changed |
| 21:04.05 | JeffM | some stuff was pulled out of the client |
| 21:04.06 | tulcod | well, for example, take firefox 2. it changed a lot in the core, but you can't see a lot of that |
| 21:04.09 | brlcad | tulcod: it's constantly changing on head, the best to do is just read the code and hang out here to stay aprised of what's going on |
| 21:04.17 | tulcod | firefox 3 is gonna change even more, but you'll see even less about it |
| 21:04.17 | JeffM | the API is being redone |
| 21:04.26 | tulcod | JeffM: backwards compatible redone? |
| 21:04.28 | JeffM | firefox has a plan and like amdinstraytors |
| 21:04.35 | JeffM | tulcod, it will not be backwards compatable to 2.0 |
| 21:04.39 | brlcad | and like 100 devs |
| 21:04.51 | JeffM | but in the future it should be backwards compatable to 3.0 |
| 21:04.55 | tulcod | will I need to change a lot to make it compatible with 3.0? |
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| 21:04.58 | JeffM | all the classes are versioned. |
| 21:05.06 | JeffM | mostly just name changes |
| 21:05.09 | tulcod | k |
| 21:05.12 | tulcod | that's not much of a problem |
| 21:05.12 | brlcad | the user community for our plugins is pretty isolated, backwards compatibility isn't nearly as big a deal as it is for FF |
| 21:05.27 | tulcod | JeffM: so effectively, the event system will stay similar to the current situation |
| 21:05.34 | JeffM | yes |
| 21:05.37 | tulcod | k |
| 21:05.39 | JeffM | there is nothing wrong with events |
| 21:05.47 | brlcad | it's nice, no need to break just for the hell of it, but if the entire client and server are already incompatible, might as well "make it better" |
| 21:05.49 | JeffM | the structures for them are now versioned. |
| 21:06.19 | brlcad | tulcod: if you see things that could be improved, suggest they improve, or make the patches -- particularly for head development, you don't have to limit yourself to what's there |
| 21:06.27 | JeffM | indeed |
| 21:06.35 | brlcad | it's intentionally a moving target, if it can be improved then it "should" |
| 21:06.35 | tulcod | k |
| 21:06.44 | tulcod | :p |
| 21:07.36 | JeffM | some of the data in the event records changed as well |
| 21:07.38 | brlcad | the 2.0 interfaces are fairly set in stone simply because it's "done" and we're back to "never" making another 2.0 release againt |
| 21:07.40 | JeffM | but mostly to be more compatable |
| 21:08.21 | tulcod | sounds pretty radical :p |
| 21:08.28 | JeffM | not really |
| 21:08.37 | JeffM | it's just how it should have been done the first time |
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| 21:09.14 | brlcad | tulcod: also, depending on what you're trying to do, a plugin may or may not be the best implementation approach (most things can be well-compartmentalized like that but some things not so well) .. so good to talk about your idea here |
| 21:09.39 | tulcod | brlcad: well, like I said, a plugin with some playing exercises |
| 21:09.45 | tulcod | like automatic turrets |
| 21:09.47 | brlcad | at least until jeff gets around to making the whole dang thing module *cough* |
| 21:09.48 | tulcod | sniping tests |
| 21:09.49 | tulcod | etc |
| 21:09.58 | tulcod | shot evading exercises |
| 21:10.01 | JeffM | modularity is not a bad thing |
| 21:10.02 | brlcad | s/module/modular/ |
| 21:10.20 | JeffM | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:10.26 | JeffM | aka, a tank |
| 21:10.35 | tulcod | JeffM: so that would depend on the 3.0 api |
| 21:10.35 | JeffM | and 2.0.x can't have a server side player |
| 21:10.36 | tulcod | yes |
| 21:10.47 | tulcod | but first of all, this plugin isn't finished yet |
| 21:10.50 | brlcad | and/or a server-side game state that you can query |
| 21:10.54 | JeffM | yeah |
| 21:10.57 | tulcod | and secondly, it can work with some clients on localhost as well |
| 21:11.02 | JeffM | we need to do shots on the server as well |
| 21:11.04 | tulcod | not ideal tho |
| 21:11.14 | JeffM | tank tracking is done on the server |
| 21:11.33 | JeffM | so you'd have to do shot tracking in the plugin now |
| 21:11.42 | JeffM | and 2.0.x has no lag comp ether |
| 21:12.10 | tulcod | sounds like 3.0 is gonna be the revision all players have been waiting for ;) |
| 21:12.17 | JeffM | probably not |
| 21:12.35 | JeffM | since most players think that those terms will magicaly fix all problems |
| 21:12.49 | tulcod | which will result in an anticlimax, true |
| 21:12.51 | JeffM | when all they are is enabeling tech needed to actualy fix them |
| 21:13.21 | JeffM | so far those that have tried trunk have said it feels "wierd" when playing |
| 21:13.26 | JeffM | due to the lag comp |
| 21:13.41 | JeffM | not because it is wrong, but because they got so used to leading targets based on lag |
| 21:14.45 | JeffM | CBG, http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?p=117819&highlight=#117819 |
| 21:15.01 | Winny | whoa, wait, we have server side shot tracking now? |
| 21:15.06 | JeffM | no |
| 21:15.25 | JeffM | "<JeffM> we need to do shots on the server as well" |
| 21:15.55 | Winny | ah |
| 21:18.03 | CBG | JeffM: like you hadn't noticed... |
| 21:18.27 | JeffM | didn't know if it was some new thing or not, since you hang out here. |
| 21:18.35 | JeffM | like maybe you were geting MORE out or something |
| 21:18.41 | JeffM | curiosity, etc.. |
| 21:19.33 | CBG | I stopped actively taking part in the whole world of bzflag some months ago. I simply didn't remove the huge number of bz-related irc channels from my auto-join list and idle there. |
| 21:19.43 | JeffM | fun |
| 21:21.20 | scott | you'll always have a place in our hearts CBG... |
| 21:21.46 | scott | but my scores will suffer :( |
| 21:21.53 | CBG | rofl. What do you play as, scott |
| 21:21.54 | CBG | ? |
| 21:22.22 | scott | das_bender |
| 21:22.26 | scott | :) |
| 21:22.58 | CBG | Sorry, doesn't ring a bell... |
| 21:27.10 | blast007 | CBG: that's because bells were outlawed in 2053 |
| 21:27.56 | CBG | *ding* *thump* "Ow! WHo are you?! Where are you taking me?!!" |
| 21:40.21 | tulcod | what's the verified (bool) flag for in PlayerJoinPartEventData? |
| 21:42.08 | JeffM | if the user has a + |
| 21:42.13 | JeffM | global ID |
| 21:42.30 | tulcod | ah |
| 21:42.37 | tulcod | and "reason"? |
| 21:43.12 | tulcod | oh |
| 21:43.14 | tulcod | that's for parts :) |
| 21:43.22 | JeffM | kick, ban, etc.. |
| 21:43.34 | JeffM | some forced disconnects have reasons |
| 21:43.35 | JeffM | some done |
| 21:43.38 | JeffM | don't |
| 21:43.47 | tulcod | exactly |
| 21:43.52 | tulcod | woot, added 3 pages to the wiki already |
| 21:43.58 | tulcod | gonna get some sleep now |
| 21:43.59 | tulcod | tired :p |
| 21:45.21 | JeffM | please be sure to follow the article gudelines |
| 21:45.51 | JeffM | the article isn't from you to someone else, it is thrid person and descriptive |
| 21:46.06 | JeffM | but your formating looks fine |
| 21:46.13 | tulcod | copied formatting from other pages |
| 21:46.14 | tulcod | :) |
| 21:46.19 | JeffM | good |
| 21:46.28 | JeffM | no page should ever ask a question |
| 21:46.28 | tulcod | well, cya |
| 21:46.31 | JeffM | I'll go fix em |
| 21:46.32 | JeffM | have fun |
| 21:46.34 | tulcod | oh, k |
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| 21:58.42 | JeffM | well that and he documented the event wrong :/ |
| 22:10.25 | Constitution | brlcad: I don't know in what sense this would happen, but if I can be of any service to you as you create the 2.0.10 OS X binary, I'd be happy to do what I can |
| 22:10.46 | Constitution | I did create one of the 2.0.10RC3 binaries, and haven't heard any complaints yet :) |
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| 22:13.21 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v Tupone] by ChanServ |
| 22:13.53 | *** topic/#bzflag by Tupone -> http://BZFlag.org || http://cia.vc/stats/project/BZFlag || http://my.BZFlag.org/w/Getting_Help || http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/9453 || http://ohloh.net/projects/189 || http://my.bzflag.org/w/ || 2.0.10 is out. |
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| 22:15.04 | JeffM | kick brlcad in the butt |
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| 22:28.02 | JeffM | man there has to be a cleaner way to document classes in the wiki |
| 22:38.30 | brlcad | Constitution: sure, if you make another binary then, I can compile the dmg tonight |
| 22:38.40 | brlcad | was yours universal too? |
| 22:38.47 | Constitution | yes |
| 22:38.50 | brlcad | i didn't hear any reports with either of them working or not working |
| 22:39.00 | Constitution | one of them had rosetta/ppc problems |
| 22:39.07 | Constitution | md5 error or something |
| 22:39.12 | brlcad | er, I mean both worked for everyone that I talked to |
| 22:39.24 | brlcad | yours or mine? |
| 22:39.44 | Constitution | yours, I guess... it's in the thread |
| 22:40.00 | brlcad | shouldn't have been using rosetta.. |
| 22:40.02 | JeffM | if it's a universal why would it go and run in rosetta |
| 22:40.25 | Constitution | JeffM: I ran it in Rosetta on purpose, to test it... same issue on physical ppc machines |
| 22:40.47 | Constitution | actually I had to physically compile the ppc binary on a ppc machine to get it to work |
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| 22:41.20 | brlcad | you maually lipo'd? |
| 22:41.25 | Constitution | yeah |
| 22:42.08 | brlcad | well, if you're willing to do that again, great |
| 22:42.39 | brlcad | it should have worked without it, so there must still be some compile-time endianness check in the code |
| 22:43.02 | Constitution | okay then |
| 22:44.33 | Winny | shouldn't of sold yours :p |
| 22:44.35 | brlcad | if you want to learn how to build the dmg too, I can walk you through that as well |
| 22:44.51 | brlcad | (presuming you don't know) |
| 22:44.55 | Constitution | okay, cool |
| 22:45.09 | Constitution | It's more than using Disk Utility? |
| 22:45.19 | brlcad | it's not too tricky, but no reason for me to be the "sole fountain of knowledge" for making the mac release |
| 22:45.22 | Constitution | well, then setting the background image, I guess... |
| 22:45.26 | brlcad | i'm spread a bit too thin anyways |
| 22:45.31 | Constitution | yeah, sure |
| 22:45.38 | brlcad | yeah, that's about it |
| 22:45.52 | brlcad | though you have to be careful of the disk image type, the position, size, last open state |
| 22:46.17 | brlcad | run a few tools so that it auto-mounts, auto-opens on more than 10.4+ |
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| 22:47.01 | brlcad | most of the tricks are so the image works on 10.2+, and driven by command-line instead of gui |
| 22:47.15 | Constitution | I see |
| 22:47.17 | brlcad | can probably simplify it a lot now that we're 10.3+ |
| 22:47.45 | brlcad | auto-opening dmgs were a pita before 10.3 |
| 22:47.47 | JeffM | pfff, if you do 10.4+ most iwll be happy |
| 22:47.59 | JeffM | do 10.3 once someone complains |
| 22:48.19 | Constitution | maybe this would be good stuff to add to devinfo? |
| 22:48.38 | Constitution | I can see to that, once I have it in my head, if it's an appropriate addition |
| 22:49.10 | brlcad | I have a script working for brl-cad that entirely scripts the dmg construction (we do a lot more releases than bz so automation was needed), that we can probably import into bz |
| 22:50.17 | JeffM | it woudl jsut be nice to get an official mac build before 2.0.10 is a month old ;) |
| 22:50.43 | JeffM | the universal will only work for 10.4+ right? |
| 22:51.00 | Constitution | no, mine worked on 10.3 |
| 22:51.24 | brlcad | did yours work in 10.5? |
| 22:51.31 | JeffM | that's the kicker |
| 22:51.35 | JeffM | with the SDL bug |
| 22:51.42 | Constitution | iirc it did |
| 22:51.46 | JeffM | 10.5 support > 10.3 support |
| 22:51.56 | JeffM | what version of SDL did you use? |
| 22:52.00 | JeffM | .12 or .11? |
| 22:52.42 | brlcad | I doubt the SDL "problem" is an SDL bug -- I think it's folks compiling the client to use a new libSDL without updating the SDLmain |
| 22:53.04 | brlcad | we ship and compile the SDLmain interface -- that is directly tied to a version of libSDL |
| 22:53.14 | JeffM | so you think it's cool with clean builds? |
| 22:53.19 | JeffM | even the F key thing? |
| 22:53.27 | *** join/#bzflag Ragzouken (n=Ragzouke@90.240.88.114) |
| 22:53.29 | brlcad | it's not clean/unclean build |
| 22:53.38 | brlcad | it's folks not using the updated SDLmain |
| 22:53.43 | Ragzouken | How can I set the size of windowed BZFlag? |
| 22:53.50 | brlcad | it's a separate download from the SDL folks |
| 22:53.54 | JeffM | would the SDL main not come with the lib |
| 22:53.55 | JeffM | ahh |
| 22:53.56 | brlcad | Ragzouken: -window |
| 22:53.57 | JeffM | they seperate |
| 22:54.00 | JeffM | on windows they don't |
| 22:54.11 | JeffM | Ragzouken, what version? |
| 22:54.17 | Ragzouken | brlcad, in what format do I give the dimensions? |
| 22:54.19 | brlcad | on windows you probably use libSDLmain |
| 22:54.21 | Ragzouken | 2.0.8 I think |
| 22:54.25 | JeffM | 2.0.x is it's -window -geometry XXXXxYYYY |
| 22:54.26 | brlcad | er, SDLmain.dll or whatever |
| 22:54.31 | Ragzouken | thanks |
| 22:54.36 | brlcad | it's a bit different on Mac to get the SDLmain |
| 22:54.51 | JeffM | brlcad, no we don't, it's just a static lib and it's included with the same bin package |
| 22:54.58 | JeffM | but we don't use it at all for BZ |
| 22:55.07 | JeffM | but ok, it's seperate, that splains it |
| 22:57.08 | Constitution | SDL was .11 as I recall... I had problems with .12 |
| 22:57.13 | JeffM | yeah |
| 22:57.23 | brlcad | yep, because or SDLmain.m is .11 iirc |
| 22:57.43 | JeffM | it would not supise me if randomParticle did forget to update the other |
| 22:58.13 | brlcad | I don't know if anyone except me knew that the two were tied together, unless they actually read the libSDL docs :) |
| 22:58.39 | JeffM | I knew |
| 22:58.48 | JeffM | but I thought they were packaged the same, like on windows |
| 22:58.49 | brlcad | easy to forget too because they've gone for many releases without modifying main |
| 22:59.02 | JeffM | tho not sure why bz even needs to use sdl_main |
| 22:59.07 | JeffM | since windows dosn't use SDL |
| 22:59.22 | brlcad | you mean why bz on windows? |
| 22:59.40 | JeffM | sdl main exists to give you an OS inspecigfic main |
| 22:59.44 | JeffM | so you don't have to do main or winMain |
| 22:59.51 | JeffM | winmain is only needed on windows |
| 22:59.56 | JeffM | bzflag on windows dos't use sdl |
| 23:00.05 | JeffM | so all uses of sdlmain in bz end up just calling main |
| 23:00.09 | JeffM | so we can just use main |
| 23:00.13 | brlcad | the idea was probably to make it use sdlmain eventually if I had to guess |
| 23:00.23 | JeffM | no need to even use SDL main on BZ |
| 23:00.30 | brlcad | mac has to have it |
| 23:00.36 | JeffM | has to? |
| 23:00.43 | JeffM | you can't just init SDL yourself in your own main? |
| 23:00.46 | brlcad | that's what sets up the entire context management for windowed, input processing |
| 23:00.52 | JeffM | ahh |
| 23:00.59 | brlcad | using a cocoa interface |
| 23:00.59 | JeffM | yeah it's not tied to the actual window |
| 23:01.00 | JeffM | that's right |
| 23:01.12 | brlcad | part why we can't just link against an sdlmain like linux |
| 23:01.13 | JeffM | we can get away with it cus it's part of the display |
| 23:01.40 | brlcad | we have to compile the SDLmain.m cocoa-based interface so it hooks into the right event pipeline |
| 23:01.45 | JeffM | then I find it even more odd that they dind't package that together |
| 23:02.56 | brlcad | they probably could, just detail -- it works now so it's been rather "meh" from my perspective |
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| 23:23.23 | Constitution | is there a particular reason why this post has to stay? http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?p=117315#117315 |
| 23:23.35 | sigonasr2 | lol |
| 23:23.45 | Winny | haha |
| 23:23.48 | Winny | I want that name |
| 23:27.11 | TD-Linux | it's a nice page break post |
| 23:28.05 | Constitution | heh, well with 50+ developers and all the regular admins moderating that thread, I thought it would've surely been deleted by now if there wasn't a specific reason not to :) |
| 23:28.54 | JeffM | wtf? |
| 23:29.09 | JeffM | the user went and editd the post after |
| 23:29.15 | JeffM | so when we saw it it was valid |
| 23:36.29 | Tupone | I was reading the log : 04:40.27JeffM__it gets signifigantly slower when you run it in a debuger |
| 23:36.30 | Tupone | 04:40.41JeffM__cus the debuger has to process each bit of code as well as run it |
| 23:36.49 | Tupone | That is not really true in general cases |
| 23:37.09 | JeffM | well the debuger does do some stuff does it not? |
| 23:37.16 | JeffM | or only at breakpoints? |
| 23:37.21 | Tupone | nope, just put hooks |
| 23:37.27 | Tupone | on break/ signal |
| 23:37.34 | Tupone | only if you want |
| 23:37.45 | JeffM | dosn't that break check take some time? |
| 23:37.46 | Tupone | separate processes, at least on unix |
| 23:38.20 | JeffM | but ok, I'm not an expert |
| 23:38.24 | Tupone | nope, break is a special instruction put on the code, (substituted) or using CPU register |
| 23:38.26 | JeffM | I just know that when I debug stuff it's slower |
| 23:38.38 | JeffM | more slower then just no optimisations |
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| 23:38.52 | Tupone | no, normally it is not |
| 23:39.10 | JeffM | it didn't matter, cus he wasn't running one like that anyway |
| 23:39.10 | Erroneous | heavily asserted code can be significantly slower |
| 23:39.33 | Tupone | but that is slower with or without debugger |
| 23:39.36 | Erroneous | coincidentally, dinkumware's c++ is heavily asserted, so most c++ stuff goes slow in debug mode on windows |
| 23:39.57 | Erroneous | asserts compile to noop when not building for debug |
| 23:40.01 | JeffM | the asserts arnt' compiled in under release |
| 23:40.17 | Tupone | well, I meant with a debugger (gdb) not compiled with debugger |
| 23:40.24 | Tupone | s/with/for/ |
| 23:40.31 | Tupone | well the 2nd |
| 23:40.36 | JeffM | you 2 are more nix debuger experts then I :) |
| 23:40.39 | JeffM | I was just guessin |
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| 23:41.20 | Tupone | running an executable with a debugger is same speed (except starting) as without |
| 23:41.41 | JeffM | then there ya go |
| 23:42.26 | Tupone | well, I was just fixing what was said |
| 23:42.39 | JeffM | consider it fixed |
| 23:42.44 | Tupone | great :) |
| 23:42.48 | Erroneous | whether or not a debugger is attached typically doesn't matter; whether or not it is debuggable or not does :) |
| 23:43.25 | Tupone | Erroneous: I agree |
| 23:44.38 | Erroneous | windows folks typically never run debuggable executables without a debugger attached, or release executables with one, so there's lots of room for misconceptions |
| 23:44.59 | JeffM | I run debug apps sans debugers all the time |
| 23:45.05 | Erroneous | what for? |
| 23:45.18 | JeffM | cus I'm lasy and don't rebuild :) |
| 23:45.29 | Erroneous | heh - but not so lazy to just push F5? :) |
| 23:45.31 | JeffM | every time chris asks me a question, I just run virtual |
| 23:45.44 | JeffM | I may not have VC up |
| 23:45.56 | JeffM | or I may be in dev, and want to test something fast for him in 8.7 |
| 23:46.04 | JeffM | or compare the output from 8.7 |
| 23:46.13 | JeffM | I don't debug the old verison, I just fire up my debug bin |
| 23:46.24 | JeffM | cus I don't need to debug it |
| 23:46.36 | JeffM | starting the app in the debuger takes a while |
| 23:46.44 | JeffM | and we don't have a fast startup ;) |
| 23:46.46 | Erroneous | true |
| 23:46.57 | JeffM | also I rarely buid release BZ |
| 23:47.16 | JeffM | every time somone says for me to try something, I usualy just hit the bin first to try and dupe it |
| 23:47.28 | JeffM | then get latest, build, debug and dupe again |
| 23:47.45 | Erroneous | I just start the solution, and debug from there. I like being able to set breakpoints while I'm duping it |
| 23:47.46 | JeffM | your latter comment is correct for me |
| 23:47.53 | JeffM | I do rarely run release builds in a debuger |
| 23:48.15 | JeffM | hate doing that too |
| 23:48.42 | Erroneous | 'tis a bit of a pain |
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| 23:49.04 | rob1n|afk | ~seen gnedders |
| 23:49.06 | ibot | i haven't seen 'gnedders', rob1n|afk |
| 23:49.06 | rob1n|afk | err |
| 23:49.09 | rob1n|afk | ~seen gsnedders |
| 23:49.10 | ibot | gsnedders <n=gsnedder@host86-145-188-131.range86-145.btcentralplus.com> was last seen on IRC in channel #bzflag, 6d 7h 32m 4s ago, saying: 'ack'. |
| 23:49.48 | rob1n|afk | ~botsnack |
| 23:49.48 | ibot | rob1n|afk: :) |
