| 00:00.56 | brlcad | when'd you last update? |
| 00:01.11 | brlcad | svn update and build was exactly what I meant |
| 00:01.23 | brlcad | so maybe you already have the mod .. but then it's odd that you'd hit the assert |
| 00:01.38 | brlcad | the assert shouldn't be reached any more |
| 00:01.43 | Thumper_ | a few minutes ago...I thought |
| 00:02.37 | Thumper_ | the last commit in trunk is mine |
| 00:02.40 | Thumper_ | from hours ago |
| 00:03.27 | Thumper_ | did you commit something new? |
| 00:03.59 | Thumper_ | r16184 is the last email I got |
| 00:06.34 | brlcad | then you have the update |
| 00:06.44 | Thumper_ | that's what he ran. died on the assert |
| 00:06.47 | Thumper_ | I think |
| 00:07.37 | brlcad | because when I first told him to update and try it, the assert was added, then an hour or so later another check was added |
| 00:07.38 | Thumper_ | delusional_: can you try it again just to make sure it dies on the assert? |
| 00:07.50 | delusional_ | pk |
| 00:08.13 | brlcad | alas, no timestamp in the paste |
| 00:08.22 | Thumper_ | ah I missed that you made 2 commits |
| 00:08.32 | Thumper_ | guess I wasn't paying all that much attention during work - sorry :) |
| 00:08.53 | brlcad | sucks not having cia |
| 00:09.10 | brlcad | i tried to reset it, but no go |
| 00:11.20 | JeffM | yeah it's a server level problem |
| 00:11.23 | JeffM | :( |
| 00:11.43 | JeffM | with out kicking scanlime in the butt, the only other choice is to make a new channel for bzflag :( |
| 00:11.52 | *** join/#bzflag Deepa|AFK (i=deepa@abused.armchairs.be) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
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| 00:16.53 | randomparticle | a number of people tell me they use 2.0.2 because the max radar size was reduced in a later version |
| 00:16.57 | randomparticle | why was it reduced? |
| 00:17.10 | JeffM | for SCIENCE! |
| 00:17.22 | JeffM | but really probably cus it cut off other stuff |
| 00:17.23 | Winny | JeffM: booo hisss we want it back |
| 00:17.29 | JeffM | so mod your code |
| 00:17.37 | JeffM | IIIRC it's a small mod |
| 00:18.03 | Winny | couldn't it be built into the source just to allow it to be made bigger VIA a conf mod? ;) |
| 00:18.18 | JeffM | anything is possible |
| 00:18.29 | JeffM | it was changed for a design choice |
| 00:18.34 | JeffM | IIRC |
| 00:18.43 | Winny | could it be back for 2.2? It's quite handy for leagues. |
| 00:18.47 | JeffM | tho there is another way to do full screen radar now |
| 00:18.55 | JeffM | trepan did something |
| 00:19.07 | Winny | ahh, the circle? |
| 00:19.08 | JeffM | and you can do top down 3d view in 2.2 |
| 00:19.51 | randomparticle | the circle, winny? |
| 00:20.12 | JeffM | the intent of radar is NOT to replace the 3d view |
| 00:20.16 | JeffM | bzflag is a 3d game |
| 00:20.42 | Winny | it doesn't bigger radar is just better in MANY people's opinion |
| 00:21.03 | Winny | err |
| 00:21.03 | JeffM | so |
| 00:21.03 | JeffM | then they shoudl make a 2d client |
| 00:21.03 | Winny | wow, that was a messed up sentence |
| 00:21.03 | randomparticle | i guess for most players it is. at a competitive level though, it's more or less 2D for many players |
| 00:21.10 | JeffM | then that is a flaw in the game design |
| 00:21.13 | Winny | JeffM: its _not_ 2d. You just see a huge HUD |
| 00:21.17 | JeffM | if it's a 2d game, we should make it a 3d game |
| 00:21.27 | randomparticle | some people have the radar opaque. the out of window view is scrunched up so small at the top you can barely see it |
| 00:21.31 | JeffM | I mean if it's a 2d game, make it a 2d client |
| 00:21.39 | JeffM | randomparticle, then what is the point of it? |
| 00:21.54 | randomparticle | they'd probably get rid of it if they could :) |
| 00:21.58 | JeffM | exactly |
| 00:22.06 | JeffM | and that's not the game we want |
| 00:22.15 | JeffM | so that is why it was changed. |
| 00:22.24 | randomparticle | that's how it goes. if you go competitive, it distorts the usual gameplay |
| 00:22.30 | JeffM | those people are more then welcome to fork it off and make a 2d client |
| 00:23.09 | JeffM | it's never been said that the bzflag mainline is a democracy ;) |
| 00:23.13 | randomparticle | like the high-jump. the fosbury flop is not normal! |
| 00:23.31 | Winny | but its _not_ 2d. There is just a big HUD... you can still _see_ the 3d view through it. |
| 00:23.41 | JeffM | Winny, then mod your client |
| 00:23.52 | JeffM | we are not saying you can't, we are just saying we won't |
| 00:24.19 | randomparticle | nobody is forced to use a fullscreen radar :) |
| 00:24.20 | JeffM | now full screen radar on another display.. that'd be awesome in the mainline |
| 00:24.28 | randomparticle | you can have the option and let people choose it if they want |
| 00:24.40 | JeffM | we can have the option to make tanks tilt, but we don't |
| 00:24.45 | JeffM | it's a choice, get over it |
| 00:25.28 | randomparticle | i wasn't under it :) |
| 00:25.35 | randomparticle | it's not me it affects. |
| 00:25.36 | JeffM | heh |
| 00:25.50 | purple_cow | it's easy to say "make it an option!" when someone wants a feature |
| 00:26.06 | purple_cow | but that's totally ignoring the maintenance burden for the programmers, or UI complexity for users |
| 00:26.07 | JeffM | the current 'radar' is not radarlike at all |
| 00:26.10 | JeffM | it's omi-god view |
| 00:26.13 | randomparticle | purple_cow: it already was an option. it was removed |
| 00:26.21 | JeffM | with a flag that makes god not see you |
| 00:26.23 | Winny | then call it "omi-god" |
| 00:26.34 | JeffM | or make it work like real radar ;) |
| 00:26.38 | Winny | never |
| 00:26.55 | randomparticle | as i say, it doesn't affect me. but you have a bunch of people unwilling to update past 2.0.2 because of that one issue |
| 00:26.58 | JeffM | and in 2.2 you can turn the main view into top down god view |
| 00:27.11 | JeffM | randomparticle, they will when the servers do |
| 00:27.13 | Winny | that would be horribly un-playable if it funtioned like real radar |
| 00:27.20 | JeffM | hence why 2.0.x needs to be DEAD |
| 00:27.31 | JeffM | Winny, then we need to evaluate the gameplay |
| 00:27.39 | JeffM | and find out WHY |
| 00:27.48 | JeffM | this woudl be the part of game design that involves.. designing. |
| 00:28.23 | JeffM | I mean if you don't ever want it to change, then we should not even work on it |
| 00:28.26 | JeffM | and just call it done |
| 00:28.28 | Winny | You've said many times this isn't a tank sim, adding real radar would make it seem more so. |
| 00:28.41 | JeffM | we can add an arcade style radar |
| 00:28.41 | Winny | one feature != whole game |
| 00:28.48 | JeffM | like we have arcade style tanks |
| 00:28.54 | JeffM | I don't think we are a full sim |
| 00:29.03 | JeffM | but I think we have enough stuff that hints at realism to make it fun |
| 00:29.13 | JeffM | that's part of the appeal |
| 00:29.38 | JeffM | I'd not make it a real scanning radar, that can't go thru any surface |
| 00:29.51 | JeffM | I'd just make it eventualy fade out based on how much stuff it's gone thru |
| 00:30.20 | JeffM | but really if the radar is our defining feature, I think that's a rather weak game dynamic |
| 00:30.31 | JeffM | means in the end we are just like the old Atari combat game |
| 00:34.19 | JeffM | so is what your implying is that a majority of the servers won't move to 2.2 in 2012? |
| 00:35.54 | delusional_ | here is a new backtrace, new bzfs, I'm using the same model I have all day http://pastebin.bzflag.bz/d769ff60a |
| 00:39.46 | JeffM | is your mesh valid? |
| 00:40.37 | JeffM | did you have to hand edit it at all? |
| 00:40.42 | delusional_ | doesnt give bad face warnings when exported as faces |
| 00:40.51 | Thumper_ | probably not but I think brlcad was expecting to NOT hit the assert anymore and just complain about the mesh being invalid instead |
| 00:41.07 | JeffM | how big is the strip? |
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| 00:44.49 | delusional_ | the longest single tristrip seems is about 150 triangles long |
| 00:44.57 | JeffM | holly hell |
| 00:45.07 | JeffM | yeah that needs to be busted up |
| 00:45.16 | JeffM | most cards choke on more then 16 |
| 00:45.43 | delusional_ | make that 210 |
| 00:46.15 | JeffM | have you run that thru your tool and seen if it works? |
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| 01:37.39 | keith80403 | BZFlag 2.0.8 - when I choose Start Server, the text turns into white blocks and I can't read it - any ideas? (Debian Etch.) The packages have worked before on another system. |
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| 01:44.20 | delusional_ | i fixed the model by with stripe option -w Fully triangluate faces |
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| 01:48.21 | delusional_ | whatever the error was, the stripe option -w kills it |
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| 01:53.57 | JeffM | did your software work? |
| 01:57.30 | delusional_ | apparently |
| 01:59.06 | delusional_ | confirmed... -w has the same beneficial effect on the tie-fighter that would not convert. |
| 02:01.03 | trepan | JeffM: don't think i ever committed that fullscreen circle thing |
| 02:04.20 | delusional_ | maybe i should trust stripe's triangulate function more than wings' tesselate function, didnt need that welder after all |
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| 03:09.15 | delusional_ | sure would be nice if stripe kept materials |
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| 05:07.32 | blast007 | keith80403: you still around? what video card and driver are you using? |
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| 06:21.23 | Constitution | double post on the forums, if a mod wants to deal with it: http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?t=11722 |
| 06:33.33 | JeffM | how is it double? |
| 06:34.57 | Constitution | probably already fixed |
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| 06:41.08 | JeffM | and just so you know, you could do a domination plug-in prety easy in 2.0.x |
| 06:41.23 | JeffM | just use world weapons for the markers |
| 06:45.55 | Constitution | yeah... is there a way to turn off the sound? |
| 06:46.03 | JeffM | nope |
| 06:46.32 | Constitution | hmm... so either a delayed update (when the team changes), or continuous shock wave sounds, I guess |
| 06:46.45 | JeffM | fire them every 30 seconds |
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| 12:32.45 | noyb | are there a lot of cheaters playing out there? Seems like I find one about every time I decide to play. For the record, I hate that. :-) |
| 12:35.28 | ruskie | not that many |
| 12:35.31 | ruskie | lol |
| 12:36.07 | noyb | I was just out there about 30 minutes ago on badgerking, and miltonian (sp?) was out there flying without a flag and shooting bullets with momentum, and, and... <sniff> I want my mommie. |
| 12:36.57 | noyb | ok, go back to making great software. sorry for that interruption. I'm ok now. really. |
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| 20:27.46 | JeffM | oh blast007 just to pick a nit, yes we are making the 2.1 protocoll be more flexable in it's design, aka asking the server for more things, instead of just client asumptions, so that we can do more stuff with server mods/plug-ins instead of proto mods. |
| 20:32.47 | Constitution | flexibility is always the goal, I suppose... and limitations in 2.0 are answered in 2.2 not just by adding the features we want, but by changing the whole approach when necessary, as I understand it... |
| 20:34.03 | JeffM | in some ways |
| 20:34.21 | JeffM | some stuff we won't be able to make any more flexable with out major changes to the system |
| 20:34.32 | JeffM | like having the server define the DR code used by clients, etc.. |
| 20:35.58 | JeffM | but yeah, we can do more and have been trying a bit |
| 20:36.09 | JeffM | and most of our recent ideas have been more on the lines of "move it to the server" |
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| 20:58.17 | brlcad | what'd be the point of having the server define DR code to the client? |
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| 20:58.39 | JeffM | if we wanted to make MASIVE changes to game play |
| 20:58.41 | JeffM | etc.. |
| 20:58.59 | brlcad | i mean even if there's a valid want for multiple DR implementations, you could still have the client just request that type of the server |
| 20:59.02 | JeffM | I'm just saying there are things like logics that we'd not be able to just "move over" |
| 20:59.13 | brlcad | ah, k |
| 20:59.24 | JeffM | sure we can add options, but we can't make some things fully "free form" |
| 20:59.25 | brlcad | that much I agree with, just not that particular example :) |
| 20:59.31 | JeffM | yeah bad example |
| 20:59.38 | JeffM | like we can't send render code over. |
| 20:59.54 | brlcad | client-provided geometry models might be one |
| 20:59.55 | JeffM | we can make the input data more flexable, but sending over the GL code how to render would be very wacky |
| 21:00.12 | JeffM | yeah that's input data |
| 21:00.17 | JeffM | what to draw, not how to do it |
| 21:00.29 | JeffM | like if we came up with a new shader, we'd have to get that into the client first. |
| 21:00.59 | JeffM | my point tho is, that we are doing work to design in more flexablilty |
| 21:01.41 | brlcad | yeah, we could probably pass programmable shaders to the client if we ever got that 'advanced' |
| 21:01.45 | JeffM | so that even after 2.2 is released we'll have a lot more options of what we can do with out breaking the proto |
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| 21:10.48 | nncp | well its finally here my most stable long lasting and most powerfull server yet |
| 21:11.10 | tannerld | ? |
| 21:11.19 | nncp | going open to the map makers |
| 21:11.28 | Winny | nncp: your still on COMCAST |
| 21:11.35 | nncp | bzfmaps was moved to my main server |
| 21:11.37 | nncp | so |
| 21:12.01 | Winny | did you not listen to anything me, JeffM, and others said? |
| 21:12.10 | nncp | if people need biger hosting they can move but most people dont give out ssh |
| 21:13.26 | a_temp_work | you comcast bill is 1/2 to 2/3 of what a co-host would cost |
| 21:13.40 | nncp | and free hosting; i know shared net ie other server is beter but i have to deel with what i got and for maps that anrt popular all the ime it great! |
| 21:13.40 | a_temp_work | you are practically paying for it already |
| 21:14.02 | nncp | lol |
| 21:15.03 | JeffM | Winny, wether he listed to us or not, his statemente can be true. |
| 21:15.10 | JeffM | since it had the term YET |
| 21:16.05 | JeffM | actualy I think his comcast bill is higher then he could get a deadecated server for |
| 21:16.22 | JeffM | but some people need to fail before they listen to the advice of others. |
| 21:16.30 | a_temp_work | i was kinda figuring his mom's contribution to the comcast bill :) |
| 21:16.36 | JeffM | ahh |
| 21:16.42 | JeffM | yeah, he's a kid, he'll lear |
| 21:16.59 | JeffM | after he gets bit in the butt a couple times. |
| 21:17.16 | CBG | hey JeffM, is bz going to be in gsoc next year? :) |
| 21:17.35 | Winny | what about google winter of code? |
| 21:17.36 | JeffM | there are many conditions to that answer |
| 21:17.37 | Winny | ;) |
| 21:17.42 | JeffM | 1) if google has one |
| 21:17.45 | JeffM | 2) if we apply |
| 21:17.51 | JeffM | 3) if we get applications |
| 21:17.57 | JeffM | 4) if we get accepted |
| 21:18.03 | JeffM | if all those happen, then yes |
| 21:18.09 | JeffM | if any of those fail, then no |
| 21:18.24 | JeffM | SoC 2008 has not been anouced yet |
| 21:18.30 | CBG | ok.... will you apply if they have one... |
| 21:18.35 | JeffM | if it is, we will most likley apply |
| 21:18.42 | CBG | Ok. thanks.. |
| 21:18.53 | JeffM | if we get applications, we will have a high likelyhood of getting accepted. |
| 21:22.48 | JeffM | plan on applying? |
| 21:26.37 | CBG | JeffM: perhaps... now that I am on a Games Dev. course at uni |
| 21:26.43 | JeffM | cool |
| 21:26.49 | JeffM | you 18 now? |
| 21:27.10 | JeffM | or lets say will be by summertime? |
| 21:27.12 | CBG | yeah |
| 21:27.17 | CBG | will be 19 in feb |
| 21:27.19 | JeffM | then you'd be good to apply :) |
| 21:27.52 | Constitution | bzflag client in php, ftw |
| 21:28.15 | JeffM | somehow I odn't think I'd vote to approve that application ;) |
| 21:28.30 | CBG | could have this year... iirc it was ok to be a college student when I looked this year |
| 21:28.32 | CBG | Constitution: ahah :D maybe :P |
| 21:28.34 | CBG | but learning C++ (oh so slowly... *sigh*) in software dev now |
| 21:28.36 | CBG | JeffM: awww why not? :P |
| 21:28.40 | JeffM | "my goal is to make the game run worse, and be harder to use" ;) |
| 21:29.00 | JeffM | CBG, what do you think you'd propse as a project idea? |
| 21:29.06 | nncp | Wow 22 people on my missle war server on linuxmain.net !!! sweet |
| 21:29.20 | CBG | no real clue tbh... been out of the loop for a while now too |
| 21:29.43 | *** join/#bzflag a_meteorite (n=a_meteor@unaffiliated/ameteorite/x-000000001) |
| 21:30.06 | JeffM | you may want to keep notes of ideas you have for when the time comes, not just for you, but to help us out with sample ideas for others too |
| 21:30.25 | Constitution | Personally I'd really like to see some bzflist/auth/groups/etc. revamp... that was on the ideas page for last year's, iirc |
| 21:30.44 | CBG | JeffM: I don't play anymore, but sure, if anything comes to mind I'll make a note of it |
| 21:31.06 | JeffM | yeah people don't realy come to the game projet to do web work |
| 21:31.15 | JeffM | so I get the feeling we'll just have to do that oruselves |
| 21:31.24 | JeffM | it's not like the SoC is the only way to get code done. |
| 21:31.36 | Constitution | true |
| 21:31.38 | JeffM | the group system is decently specked out |
| 21:32.23 | CBG | what's the worst part of the whole project, code wise, in your opinion JeffM? |
| 21:32.29 | CBG | just one will do though :P |
| 21:32.35 | Constitution | well I guess the whole thing will need to be tied together with LDAP if that ever happens |
| 21:32.46 | JeffM | that is a loaded question |
| 21:32.57 | a_meteorite | I only probably heard 1/5th of the conversation, but I think it's the integration part CBG |
| 21:33.05 | JeffM | if you mean like code meantance wise, all of it |
| 21:33.20 | CBG | JeffM: you heard enough to no exactly what we're talking about :) |
| 21:33.23 | JeffM | if you mean least understtood section of code, collisions and obstacles |
| 21:33.37 | JeffM | if you mean worst implemented, networking |
| 21:33.47 | JeffM | and well auth |
| 21:33.52 | a_meteorite | er different thing. thought it was a web question. ^ |
| 21:33.56 | JeffM | auth is well understood, but implemented horibly |
| 21:34.32 | JeffM | the parts that need the most changes, are parts that are not "one off" projects we can just hand to people |
| 21:34.45 | JeffM | like redoing the entire client and server networking and game states to be authortive |
| 21:34.47 | CBG | i see |
| 21:34.51 | JeffM | that needs all the develoipers |
| 21:34.57 | JeffM | and like colaboration and stuff |
| 21:35.01 | JeffM | and designs |
| 21:35.05 | JeffM | and flowcharts |
| 21:35.11 | JeffM | perhaps even a lazer pointer |
| 21:35.23 | CBG | eek |
| 21:35.28 | CBG | not a laser pointer! |
| 21:35.29 | a_meteorite | flow charts would be helpful, that's where I get stumped at... what's happening where in the code |
| 21:35.32 | JeffM | but stuff like auth, groups, and smaller things could be done as more one offs |
| 21:35.37 | a_meteorite | and when |
| 21:35.49 | JeffM | a_meteorite, the flowchart for the current code would be just as confusing |
| 21:35.50 | CBG | JSDs ftw! |
| 21:35.54 | a_meteorite | JeffM: :) |
| 21:36.06 | JeffM | flowcharts are usefull for designing software |
| 21:36.12 | JeffM | and keeping it so it dosn't get too complex |
| 21:36.13 | a_meteorite | yeah, designing a flow chart for how *new* code works would be good |
| 21:36.33 | JeffM | we got some 15 year old code hanging out in there, it's authors are long gone |
| 21:36.56 | JeffM | our best use of it would be to design a flow for how we think it should work |
| 21:37.05 | JeffM | then have people dig and make it work that way |
| 21:37.12 | CBG | My GSoC application: I'd like to rewrite the whole project from scratch because it needs it. :| |
| 21:37.33 | JeffM | that sadly would not be accepted from google's rules :) |
| 21:37.39 | CBG | heh |
| 21:38.02 | a_meteorite | "Hi, Google, for GSoC I'd like to create a new project and hire devs from the $5k. Thanks" |
| 21:38.32 | JeffM | you'd not get much dev work 5k |
| 21:38.37 | a_meteorite | nope |
| 21:39.01 | a_meteorite | Heh, I rememember ohloh's estimates for how much different FOSS projects cost to program |
| 21:39.31 | JeffM | those are somewhat inflated in my opinon |
| 21:39.35 | Constitution | sounds like you guys are very fond of ogre now... I suppose an ogre implementation of bzflag would be a welcome application? |
| 21:39.48 | JeffM | a real comercial projet would have more focus and paid designers and would get done a LOT faster |
| 21:39.50 | a_meteorite | lol... BZFlag is valued at over $6 mil considering the default salary |
| 21:39.54 | Constitution | but then Tupone's CS port never really stuck, I guess |
| 21:39.56 | JeffM | Constitution, probably |
| 21:40.04 | a_meteorite | I'm all for ogre |
| 21:40.11 | a_meteorite | But I'm not the 3D man |
| 21:40.14 | JeffM | the problem with the engines is, we can't just say "use this" cus we haven't seen an evaluation of it |
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| 21:40.44 | JeffM | the best proejct would be "eval and discuss with the devs what engine choices are available, then start implemeting the one picked" |
| 21:41.02 | Constitution | so before the application, then...? |
| 21:41.04 | JeffM | the CS one didn't stick cus it was just one guy going "I'm doing thi" |
| 21:41.09 | Constitution | or is that even a valid way to make an application... |
| 21:41.09 | JeffM | or part of the application |
| 21:41.13 | Constitution | hmm |
| 21:41.19 | JeffM | nothing says that the eval can't be part of the project |
| 21:41.25 | JeffM | having them code a sample in each |
| 21:41.43 | JeffM | there are a nubmer of engines |
| 21:41.50 | JeffM | we like ogre for ONE reason only |
| 21:41.54 | JeffM | right hand rule |
| 21:42.01 | a_meteorite | right hand rule? |
| 21:42.01 | JeffM | and the ogre guy was cool |
| 21:42.05 | JeffM | learn math |
| 21:42.43 | Constitution | is Z up? ;) |
| 21:43.09 | JeffM | z can be up in ether type of system |
| 21:43.10 | JeffM | that's easy |
| 21:43.15 | JeffM | Z isn't up in basic GL |
| 21:43.22 | JeffM | but basic GL is at least right hand rule |
| 21:43.26 | Constitution | ah |
| 21:43.36 | JeffM | Z up is just a 90 deg rot around X |
| 21:43.37 | CBG | Only right hand rule I know of is to do with current in a wire coil.. |
| 21:43.38 | JeffM | that's cake |
| 21:43.46 | JeffM | CBG, it's all related ;) |
| 21:43.54 | CBG | heh, ok |
| 21:43.57 | JeffM | thats why RHR is the "right" way ;) |
| 21:44.03 | JeffM | LHR is stupid |
| 21:44.22 | CBG | flemming's LHR ? |
| 21:44.29 | JeffM | Left Hand Rule |
| 21:44.36 | JeffM | Flip Y |
| 21:44.43 | CBG | Thrust, Field and CUrrent ..? |
| 21:45.16 | CBG | Also from physics, like the RHR I know |
| 21:45.17 | JeffM | well flip one axis |
| 21:45.22 | *** part/#bzflag LongDon (n=LongDon@host-091-097-057-037.ewe-ip-backbone.de) |
| 21:45.22 | JeffM | that's LHR |
| 21:45.27 | JeffM | aka, WRONG |
| 21:45.32 | CBG | heh |
| 21:46.28 | CBG | JeffM: referring to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Cartesian_coordinate_system_handedness.svg (LHL on left, RHR on right) ? |
| 21:46.37 | JeffM | exactly |
| 21:46.53 | CBG | so the difference is all on which way something is rotated? |
| 21:47.11 | JeffM | well and what way X and Y end up being once you rotate Z to be up |
| 21:47.12 | CBG | oh, x and y are swapped too. missed that |
| 21:47.17 | JeffM | yeah |
| 21:47.28 | JeffM | bascily all our code is RHR |
| 21:47.38 | JeffM | so to go left, you have to do a transpostion of values |
| 21:47.42 | CBG | I gotta say, the LHR looks more normal to me |
| 21:47.43 | JeffM | and it gets very fugly |
| 21:47.52 | JeffM | the microsoft rules your brain |
| 21:48.30 | CBG | eeek |
| 21:48.33 | JeffM | it's just more work for us to do LHR, and a lot of engines do it |
| 21:48.41 | JeffM | Ogre is swapable |
| 21:48.43 | JeffM | and that is nice |
| 21:48.48 | CBG | i see |
| 21:48.51 | JeffM | ogre also has a nice API |
| 21:48.58 | JeffM | now other system have nice APIs too |
| 21:49.01 | JeffM | like OSG |
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| 21:54.27 | TD-Linux | I was looking at some game engines yesterday |
| 21:54.36 | JeffM | there are many |
| 21:54.44 | TD-Linux | crystalspace stood out at me |
| 21:54.51 | TD-Linux | becuase it has more than pretty looks |
| 21:54.57 | JeffM | that's all input art |
| 21:54.59 | JeffM | not the engine |
| 21:55.03 | TD-Linux | yes |
| 21:55.13 | TD-Linux | most of the other engines only bragged about their effects, shaders, etc |
| 21:55.18 | JeffM | the engine and API is kinda crapish |
| 21:55.22 | TD-Linux | I was more interested in the physics |
| 21:55.25 | TD-Linux | hmm |
| 21:55.27 | JeffM | and it's left hand rule |
| 21:55.34 | JeffM | tupone started a CS port |
| 21:56.39 | TD-Linux | JeffM, what's your 'favorite'? |
| 21:57.00 | JeffM | so far, orge |
| 22:00.31 | TD-Linux | no physics and stuff... but if it integrates well, that's good |
| 22:00.54 | JeffM | we don't need one that does it all |
| 22:01.09 | Constitution | so... right now bzflag uses something like a handmade engine? |
| 22:01.09 | JeffM | and ogre can work with ODE just fine if we wanted to do other physcis |
| 22:01.18 | JeffM | it's just rendering code |
| 22:01.21 | JeffM | not realy an engine |
| 22:01.24 | TD-Linux | I wasn't looking for something for bzflag though |
| 22:01.55 | JeffM | the term "engine" is mostly used for more generic rendering code that can be reused |
| 22:02.27 | Constitution | I see |
| 22:03.14 | blast007 | do those engines have their own sound code as well? |
| 22:03.22 | JeffM | some do |
| 22:03.24 | JeffM | some don't |
| 22:03.24 | blast007 | or would something like OpenAL still be used? |
| 22:03.25 | blast007 | k |
| 22:03.31 | JeffM | CS does it ALL |
| 22:03.43 | JeffM | ogre trys to just do rendering and sceenementemdnet |
| 22:03.53 | JeffM | sceene management |
| 22:04.01 | JeffM | with modular hooks for other things |
| 22:04.57 | JeffM | that's my prefrence for it NOT to do all things |
| 22:05.06 | JeffM | so that we can find the best fit for each part |
| 22:05.33 | JeffM | I mean we HAVE physics code now, and well it's kinda the only thing that makes bzflag bzflag |
| 22:05.39 | TD-Linux | yeah |
| 22:05.58 | JeffM | so if we swaped to a more realistic physcics system, the entire game would change |
| 22:06.22 | JeffM | and we don't need ODE or some physcics engine to compute simple flat point physcis for us :) |
| 22:06.47 | JeffM | the big thing with engines would be the probablilty of loosing some suported platforms |
| 22:07.10 | JeffM | and the more the engine does for you, the less platforms it general supports |
| 22:07.27 | TD-Linux | me and my friends at school wanted to make a game, and with only 2 programmers, the more stuff pre-written, the better |
| 22:07.40 | JeffM | then you want Torque |
| 22:07.46 | JeffM | end of story |
| 22:08.11 | JeffM | torque is the fastest way to get a game going with comercial grade tech |
| 22:08.16 | JeffM | and the cheapest |
| 22:08.17 | TD-Linux | yeah |
| 22:08.29 | TD-Linux | I wanted to avoid it, but I think we will use it |
| 22:08.43 | JeffM | I own a license, it's really nice |
| 22:08.47 | TD-Linux | okay |
| 22:08.50 | JeffM | REALLY nice |
| 22:09.00 | JeffM | the scripting system is awesome |
| 22:09.14 | JeffM | and you can still make your mods to the engine, and your scripts open source |
| 22:09.21 | JeffM | and make your game free |
| 22:09.47 | JeffM | for a full open source system, yeah CS is probably the most robust of the full featured systems |
| 22:10.07 | JeffM | it's rather bloated, and a pain to build, but if you bang on it you can get it work |
| 22:10.19 | JeffM | the learning curve and frustration levels can be high |
| 22:10.58 | JeffM | for ogre, I belive that there are other 3rd party libs for sound, net, etc.. that people have made to work with ogre so you can turn it into a full game engine. |
| 22:11.36 | TD-Linux | it'll probably end up being torque, especially because the other programmer already knows it |
| 22:11.46 | JeffM | it's really eash to learn |
| 22:11.58 | JeffM | the scripting system is basicly C++ |
| 22:12.02 | blast007 | in the end, might we even find that a graphics engine just isn't right for BZFlag, and then just modularize our code? |
| 22:12.11 | JeffM | that is a posibility |
| 22:12.27 | JeffM | no mater what we have to modularise our code |
| 22:12.36 | JeffM | we can't use any engine as we sit now |
| 22:12.47 | JeffM | so we have to pull the sceene and drawing stuff out no mater what |
| 22:13.00 | JeffM | it would be nice to leverage other people's code |
| 22:13.00 | blast007 | so the first step any ways would be to make our code better ;) |
| 22:13.05 | JeffM | yes |
| 22:13.31 | JeffM | that's one reason why I was a litle leary of the CS branch |
| 22:13.41 | blast007 | yeah |
| 22:13.41 | JeffM | it was just a "hey do it!" |
| 22:13.46 | JeffM | and that ain't going to cut it for us |
| 22:13.51 | blast007 | hard to just drop in an engine into the current code base |
| 22:13.59 | JeffM | even if it was finished all it woudl do is just confuse the hell out of everyone |
| 22:14.11 | JeffM | well lightfeather is the closest thing I've seen to a drop in |
| 22:14.23 | JeffM | it had a very similar "sceen, node, render" type system |
| 22:14.33 | JeffM | and ALL it did was drawing |
| 22:14.49 | JeffM | but it's LHR |
| 22:15.36 | TD-Linux | a graphics engine would add more graphical features 'for free' |
| 22:15.57 | TD-Linux | but then using them would be hard |
| 22:15.59 | blast007 | TD-Linux: sorta |
| 22:16.05 | JeffM | not nessisarly |
| 22:16.16 | JeffM | we coudl leverate other code easier |
| 22:16.20 | JeffM | for sure |
| 22:16.22 | JeffM | but we' |
| 22:16.30 | JeffM | we'd basicly be "pre paying" for it |
| 22:16.37 | JeffM | since we'd pay a lot of time to get that engine in the first place |
| 22:16.42 | JeffM | so it's not free |
| 22:16.51 | JeffM | it's a bundle package |
| 22:17.19 | JeffM | the question is, is the time that engine feature X would take for us to implment, longer then the engine integration time. |
| 22:17.37 | JeffM | for one or 2 features, that' is probably NOT true. |
| 22:18.01 | JeffM | we'd have to have a good 5-6 engine features that we'd have direct plans to use, before the time tradeoff would be worth it |
| 22:18.05 | JeffM | IMHO |
| 22:18.30 | JeffM | cus I mean like stencel shadows, we can do those in say a day or so. |
| 22:18.43 | JeffM | I doubt that we could do an engine integration in that time |
| 22:21.09 | TD-Linux | I want to fix drawinfo sometime, it's ugly |
| 22:21.46 | JeffM | yes, no mater what our entire rendering pipeline needs to be evalutated |
| 22:21.53 | JeffM | we need a single common surface definition |
| 22:22.06 | JeffM | that has full support of every rendering and physcics feature |
| 22:22.41 | JeffM | then our current map stuff is just primitives to set them up |
| 22:23.48 | Constitution | so basically integrating a 3d engine over a SOC would be a lot of work, in other words? :) |
| 22:23.59 | JeffM | yes |
| 22:24.07 | L4m3r | too bad you can't assign students to work in pairs |
| 22:24.14 | JeffM | and I'm not convinved it's something we should "blow off" to the Soc |
| 22:24.17 | L4m3r | I think two or three people could do it. |
| 22:24.26 | JeffM | again, the SoC is NOT the only way we can get new code |
| 22:24.27 | L4m3r | hm, that's a good point too |
| 22:24.32 | JeffM | we are freaking developers, we can DEVELOP |
| 22:24.42 | JeffM | it would be a core codebase change |
| 22:24.48 | JeffM | so it's something we all have to be involved in |
| 22:25.19 | JeffM | now that's not to say we can't start it, and have a SoCer do large parts of the work as part of the program |
| 22:25.33 | JeffM | but the concept of "giving it off" to a group is just not going to fly with that kinda change. |
| 22:26.13 | JeffM | the SoC student only has to do 3 months of work, he does not have to have some stand alone feature to present at the end |
| 22:26.46 | JeffM | stand alone features/proejcts are just the simplest for them to present, and what they are used to in school |
| 22:27.21 | JeffM | if you were to get hired at a company to program, they'd just put you to work and start asgining you tasks and stuff, you can treat the SoC like that if oyu want too |
| 22:27.29 | JeffM | takes more management time |
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| 22:28.58 | Constitution | well it feels like the GSOC is our biggest momentum generator for coding activity... even work unrelated to it |
| 22:29.20 | JeffM | only because we activly push it |
| 22:29.27 | JeffM | we could do the same with regular people |
| 22:29.40 | JeffM | all that comment does is prove that with direction people get stuff done.... |
| 22:29.45 | Constitution | so... can we do it? |
| 22:29.47 | Constitution | :) |
| 22:30.02 | JeffM | exactly |
| 22:30.09 | JeffM | it just needs direction |
| 22:30.18 | JeffM | the SoC students were highly directed |
| 22:30.27 | JeffM | now that was thanks to google paying them |
| 22:30.49 | JeffM | but if we can find ways to generate similar interst and direction in the main code, I think we could get similar things done |
| 22:31.10 | JeffM | but most of our devs are used to the "putter and patch" type of development |
| 22:31.20 | JeffM | since we've never had any form of official direction |
| 22:31.35 | blast007 | I've seen some people who look at the TODO and ask what needs to be done |
| 22:31.44 | blast007 | yet some of that stuff isn't necessarily the most important |
| 22:31.49 | JeffM | the students had no past history with our style so they fell into the directed dev quite well. |
| 22:31.59 | blast007 | so there are people out there that want to dedicated time to help |
| 22:32.07 | JeffM | exactly, it's just some notes devs cobbled together |
| 22:32.29 | blast007 | the main issue is that there isn't any defined/prioritized list of goals |
| 22:32.47 | blast007 | of people were aware of things like that, they might become interested |
| 22:32.55 | blast007 | if* |
| 22:34.03 | JeffM | yet for the SoC students there was |
| 22:34.42 | Constitution | so if so many people are aware of this problem, and care about it, why doesn't anyone do anything about it? |
| 22:35.03 | Constitution | Are people afraid to do stuff like that without Tim Riker initiating it? |
| 22:35.05 | JeffM | being aware of it dosn't always motivate |
| 22:35.14 | JeffM | tim's part of it |
| 22:35.27 | JeffM | tho in reality he could be made to not matter so much |
| 22:35.36 | JeffM | I mean we do have 2 other active project admins |
| 22:35.53 | JeffM | mostly it's just geting everyone to agree on the designs, or even who shoudl manage the designs, etcc. |
| 22:36.06 | JeffM | for SoC it was prety easy, brlcad was THE man in the end. |
| 22:36.13 | JeffM | we don't have a "the man" in the end. |
| 22:36.38 | JeffM | I've tried pushing and manageing more active, but it's hard work, and a lot of people balk at it. |
| 22:36.51 | JeffM | that's the time when it'd be nice for Tim to have my back |
| 22:37.05 | JeffM | cus there will be people who do not like the change in style |
| 22:37.52 | JeffM | I realy think thats why the SoC students were as sucsefull as they were, the ones that had no famillarity with our lax style took the direction and did great |
| 22:38.27 | JeffM | no offence to the one who was used to our style, but that kinda shows "hey...proof" |
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| 22:43.42 | Constitution | perhaps now isn't the best time for such a large project as all these changes to the rendering system, with all the pressure to get 2.2 out... on the other hand, perhaps it's a good time to do it, so we don't go another three years or whatever without it? |
| 22:43.44 | brlcad | huh? |
| 22:44.35 | brlcad | ahh |
| 22:44.51 | brlcad | JeffM: you must be waiting on regression tests... :) |
| 22:44.53 | Constitution | I mean, if you got three of four motivated people involved, maybe it wouldn't take so long as I'm thinking |
| 22:45.31 | brlcad | Constitution: are you motivated to contribute? |
| 22:45.41 | Constitution | yes |
| 22:45.45 | brlcad | talking it up is the easy part :) |
| 22:45.53 | Constitution | but I'm a bit of a novice, so I need direction |
| 22:45.55 | JeffM | yeah see, I'm just talking it up |
| 22:45.57 | Constitution | I think there are others like me |
| 22:46.07 | JeffM | and, I just don't want to do the marker enhancment I have to do |
| 22:46.08 | brlcad | finding the time while managing the other necessity reponsibilities is the trick |
| 22:46.23 | JeffM | yeah the big thing with it all is you need constant management |
| 22:46.34 | JeffM | with SoC we had pressure to manage it cus there was money |
| 22:46.34 | Constitution | yeah |
| 22:46.40 | JeffM | and I know brlcad put a LOT of time into it |
| 22:46.58 | JeffM | to do that with those back end pressures is a lot harder to keep up |
| 22:47.15 | brlcad | yeah, even SoC, "our" activity practically came to a stop with all of the knowledge sharing, discussions and other activities that had to go on |
| 22:47.23 | JeffM | having more support from the likes of tim and the other "core" devs would help |
| 22:47.52 | JeffM | IMHO it all comes down to geting people to change, and that is well, hard. |
| 22:48.12 | brlcad | yeah, more people more fundamentally committed to spending XX hours per week (emphasis on the double digits) contributing productively |
| 22:48.40 | brlcad | yeah, change requires massive communication, politicing, coordinating, testing, and more communication |
| 22:48.56 | JeffM | thats why I think that geting people to change is easyer on a fork, cus it's allready difrent |
| 22:49.12 | JeffM | once you get somone to accept some part of a change, it's a lot easier to get the rest of it down |
| 22:49.52 | JeffM | I mean realy, lets say I decided to go and make bzflag more managed, the first thing I'd do is come up with some sort of outlne/design |
| 22:50.02 | JeffM | then fight for a month an half with everyone who didn't like it |
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| 22:50.18 | Constitution | yeah, I guess in the short run, the work you long-time devs do on the code is much more efficient... and switching to managing others who are "coming up to speed" is less efficient, and only better in the long term if they're going to stay and help for a long time |
| 22:50.21 | brlcad | that does take care of some of the entrenchment, but at the expense of people's investment .. they don't fight it because they no longer care |
| 22:50.26 | JeffM | yet if Tim said "that's the way we want to go", most of those complainers would shut up |
| 22:50.30 | JeffM | or leave |
| 22:50.38 | JeffM | wich woudln't matter cus they an't doing anythign now |
| 22:51.06 | Constitution | heh |
| 22:51.08 | JeffM | coming up to speed in BZ is not easy cus the codebase is horrible |
| 22:51.13 | brlcad | the arguments on the core code are "good" imho in part _because_ people care enough to argue the points .. even if it makes making changes slower/harder than it would be stand-alone/forked |
| 22:51.15 | JeffM | it's just old ugly code |
| 22:51.53 | JeffM | yeah, DTRemenak/ Erroneous , brlcad ,and myself seem to have an easer time of it because we talk |
| 22:52.10 | brlcad | Constitution: if working with you or anyone else seemed to indicate a near guarantee that we'd gain a "long-term core dev", just about all of us would be all for it |
| 22:52.10 | JeffM | now some of the DTRemenak <-> me talking dosn't happen here ;) |
| 22:52.13 | JeffM | but it happens |
| 22:52.28 | brlcad | the issue is usually that that's not the case, the investment goes in, but rarely is there a return on that investment |
| 22:52.38 | Constitution | indeed |
| 22:52.48 | JeffM | well oteh then punks saying your stuff sucks ;) |
| 22:53.05 | brlcad | so the core devs get dissuaded from trying to entice new people in |
| 22:53.36 | brlcad | nobody ever enticed me to code for bz (except maybe chestal making an impression on me) .. I just jumped in because I could and I wanted to |
| 22:53.54 | JeffM | tho plug-ins seem to be the gateway drug now, and makes it easier to get "in" I think |
| 22:54.17 | brlcad | feature-wise, but have any bridged to "core code"? |
| 22:54.38 | JeffM | developer wise? or code wise? |
| 22:54.55 | brlcad | code-wise, significant contributions outside of plugins/ |
| 22:55.10 | JeffM | code wise many have been pulled into the mainline, and some plug-in develoipers now have commit access and work on core code |
| 22:55.22 | JeffM | blast007 being the most popular ;) |
| 22:55.42 | JeffM | it gets them somewhat used to "how" we do things |
| 22:55.48 | brlcad | I know they have access, and some have made a few minor edits .. but nobody has latched out to being comfortable working anywhere in the code afaikt |
| 22:56.08 | JeffM | well as far as I'm concerend, 3 maybe 4 people have got that far |
| 22:56.20 | JeffM | and that's ONLY been due to time spent in the code |
| 22:56.36 | JeffM | well that and manly man kahonez :) |
| 22:56.45 | brlcad | hm, maybe difference in the magnitude of the contributions outside of plugins that I'm thinking of |
| 22:57.00 | JeffM | maybe that's what we can do when somone is afraid to work esewhere, inslut there manly/womanlynees |
| 22:57.25 | brlcad | not that there's anything wrong with that, there certainly are plenty of great plugin contributions |
| 22:57.31 | JeffM | "comone panzy, what is the little baby scare of the rendernode" |
| 22:57.45 | Constitution | brlcad: so in other words, you "core devs" need some kind of indication from those like me that we're in for the long term before putting in the effort? and if so, what would that look like? is it primarily plugins, like we're talking about? |
| 22:58.03 | JeffM | I could tel you were long term by your thrid patch |
| 22:58.13 | JeffM | that's why I asked for you to get commit access |
| 22:58.22 | JeffM | then I got that damned bit set |
| 22:58.27 | brlcad | but it's not like anyone has bridged into fixing our network issues, flag management, DR, or GUI engine integration :) |
| 22:58.59 | JeffM | I think more would if we had more direciton |
| 22:59.04 | JeffM | noone wants to "wander" in there |
| 22:59.09 | JeffM | cus it's a dark evil place |
| 22:59.20 | JeffM | but if we slap a torch in there hand and give em a sword they may do it |
| 22:59.21 | brlcad | Constitution: part that and part just seeing you jump in and working on code *anywhere* in the project |
| 22:59.35 | brlcad | picking core bugs, or long-term goals and working on them week after week |
| 23:00.05 | Constitution | the massive codebase is a bit daunting... hard to tell where changing something in one place will break something in another (for those unfamiliar) |
| 23:00.22 | Constitution | that's the nice thing about working WITH those who are familiar |
| 23:00.30 | brlcad | Constitution: you're probably the best new dev on the block in a long time, please don't let me give the indication that I don't think you've done great stuff :) |
| 23:00.40 | brlcad | I think you have done great, as have a few others |
| 23:00.43 | JeffM | yeah you actualy try to work WITH people |
| 23:00.48 | brlcad | hope to see more of it frankly, it's great |
| 23:00.58 | JeffM | many just want a thing to go "off" and do |
| 23:01.41 | Constitution | good to hear :) |
| 23:02.05 | JeffM | again why I asked for you to get commit access |
| 23:02.09 | Constitution | but I can't help but feel a bit isolated |
| 23:02.18 | JeffM | well you are |
| 23:02.26 | JeffM | we don't make it easy to do large things |
| 23:02.30 | JeffM | we arn't set up for that |
| 23:02.40 | JeffM | we try to be sometimes |
| 23:02.42 | JeffM | the wiki helps |
| 23:02.57 | brlcad | if you feel isolated, then that's our fault |
| 23:03.07 | JeffM | but the way people are used to working, and the time people put into it makes it hard to have big group hugs |
| 23:03.16 | JeffM | yeah the bzflag project isolates people |
| 23:03.28 | JeffM | the term "Patches welcome" typifys that |
| 23:03.35 | JeffM | "go off and do it and maybe we'll look at it" |
| 23:03.41 | JeffM | that's horible |
| 23:04.13 | L4m3r | I think it's kind of inevitable. For better or for worse, most of us have lives. :\ |
| 23:04.22 | JeffM | indeed |
| 23:04.33 | L4m3r | it's not easy to collaborate closely when you only have spare time to play with |
| 23:04.35 | JeffM | and you can design systems that work aorund that |
| 23:04.45 | JeffM | just not our current system ;) |
| 23:06.30 | brlcad | sometimes that's also a good thing, sometimes not so good |
| 23:06.42 | JeffM | if we forced more features to be documented in wiki, or other softwares, where people could comment at leasure, then set review time limits ( in weeks) we could be better I think |
| 23:06.51 | JeffM | yeah all depends on the people |
| 23:07.00 | JeffM | I like how we've used our wiki to spec some stuff now |
| 23:07.05 | brlcad | it would have been really hard to agree on the plugins interface without tons of work, but then jeff one-off'd it and it was in place |
| 23:07.14 | brlcad | (as an example) |
| 23:07.22 | JeffM | and it was horible ;) |
| 23:07.28 | L4m3r | it's not far from the whole "PLAN" thing, really |
| 23:07.30 | JeffM | noone will ever use them |
| 23:07.40 | L4m3r | we don't have enough man-hours to do anything really completely :P |
| 23:07.54 | L4m3r | not together, anyway |
| 23:08.03 | blast007 | L4m3r: well, maybe not a single person |
| 23:08.59 | L4m3r | I mean, complete documentation would be nice but I don't think we'd be able to "get" anyone to do it thoroughly |
| 23:09.23 | brlcad | or rather .. I know from my perspective I already put XX hours in a week on BZ, some visible some not, but don't want to put that time towards "just talking", if it felt like that, when I could just as easily be coding or fixing something else |
| 23:09.36 | L4m3r | yeah |
| 23:09.40 | blast007 | L4m3r: haven't had time to read all the scrollback, but documentation for what? |
| 23:09.47 | blast007 | plugins? |
| 23:09.48 | brlcad | nah, screw documentation, "it'd be nice" is very true .. but in the end it'd be a maintenance burden that is very quickly out of date |
| 23:09.52 | L4m3r | API, protocol, whatever spec |
| 23:10.11 | blast007 | the API I can see.. |
| 23:10.16 | L4m3r | well, I think once that got off the ground, we'd get a lot of community help on the maintenance end |
| 23:10.37 | brlcad | there's not enough involved to warrant extensive effort on docs -- finishing up something like doxygen and some high-level dev docs would be about as far as I'd take it |
| 23:10.43 | L4m3r | but yeah, it's not exactly essential, either. A lot of people have learned the API just by looking at the code. |
| 23:11.03 | L4m3r | as well as the proto and whatever else |
| 23:11.12 | JeffM | proto docs == joke |
| 23:11.18 | L4m3r | lol |
| 23:11.20 | brlcad | anything else is just busy work for idle minds (imho) ... it doesn't take that long to figure out what code is doing through reading and testing :) |
| 23:11.31 | JeffM | indeed |
| 23:11.41 | JeffM | docs will not make a bunch of people start working on code |
| 23:11.45 | brlcad | the code is ultimately the docs anyways |
| 23:11.49 | brlcad | right |
| 23:12.01 | JeffM | I do some API docs cus I feel guity |
| 23:12.01 | brlcad | if they can/want to code, everything they need is already there frankly |
| 23:12.06 | brlcad | bz's not that big/complex |
| 23:12.08 | JeffM | and I spell things wrong a lot |
| 23:12.13 | JeffM | firefox > bz |
| 23:12.21 | brlcad | heh, by a couple orders |
| 23:12.29 | brlcad | and their docs reflect that accordingly |
| 23:12.29 | JeffM | bz is just rather messy |
| 23:12.42 | JeffM | that and there are stigmas about some sections |
| 23:12.49 | L4m3r | Doesn't firefox have a guy working on docs? |
| 23:12.49 | JeffM | "oh I don't know openGL programing" |
| 23:12.56 | L4m3r | like, one guy that JUST does docs? |
| 23:12.59 | JeffM | how many times have you heard that one? |
| 23:13.19 | JeffM | L4m3r, sure if we have 50 devs, so would we ;) |
| 23:13.20 | L4m3r | heh |
| 23:13.42 | JeffM | so by that we have 0.08 people working on docs |
| 23:13.46 | L4m3r | if only they had 51, then they could dedicate one to finding memory leaks :P |
| 23:14.13 | JeffM | that 0.08 person totaly works on docs all of his 0.08 time! |
| 23:14.17 | JeffM | he's a doc MACHINE |
| 23:15.31 | brlcad | or more like "oh I don't know C++" |
| 23:15.39 | JeffM | yeah that's the big one |
| 23:15.58 | JeffM | tho I just discount them as any sort of dev at that point and just somone talking the talk |
| 23:16.12 | brlcad | probably just listing our high-level list of priorities would be a big-win doc-wise |
| 23:16.13 | JeffM | if your not willing to learn ANYTHING, then there is no point helping |
| 23:16.16 | L4m3r | having seen attempts at C++ by people who don't really know the basics, I think we should be GLAD when that scares someone off :) |
| 23:16.24 | brlcad | then maybe just keep track of those high-level gaols |
| 23:16.40 | JeffM | brlcad, you mean like a roadmap or game desgn ;) |
| 23:16.49 | brlcad | I did something similar for CAD and it had a big impact on giving the impression of our directions and tasks needing to be worked |
| 23:16.59 | brlcad | yeah, something like a roadmap |
| 23:17.04 | brlcad | not a design, but a direction |
| 23:17.24 | L4m3r | it's not like PHP where you can just bodge something together and have it work fine... C++ is a dangerous beast when you don't know what you're doing :P |
| 23:17.26 | brlcad | the design does/will change and get argued over and over (list server anyone?) |
| 23:17.43 | JeffM | there was no argument about the list |
| 23:17.47 | JeffM | tim just went and DID it |
| 23:17.56 | JeffM | juder the guise of karma |
| 23:17.56 | brlcad | after that |
| 23:17.59 | brlcad | the new list server |
| 23:18.04 | L4m3r | "RPG, your plug-in leaks memory. you need to free those player records." "Free? huh? memory leak?" |
| 23:18.16 | brlcad | not so much arguments as on-going discussions about how to implement, what to implement |
| 23:18.23 | L4m3r | where to start |
| 23:18.24 | JeffM | L4m3r, that's not in the project, so whopty do, that's just kids learning. |
| 23:18.26 | brlcad | whether it's php or c++, what features or not |
| 23:18.39 | JeffM | I'll belive new list server when I see it ;) |
| 23:18.55 | blast007 | L4m3r: PHP can be dangerous if you don't know what you're doing too :P |
| 23:19.03 | L4m3r | well of course |
| 23:19.09 | blast007 | index.php?isAdmin=1 ;) |
| 23:19.18 | JeffM | to a true developer language is irrelivant |
| 23:19.35 | L4m3r | maybe a "wishlist" would be a good idea |
| 23:19.39 | JeffM | language is just a factor in cost. |
| 23:19.42 | L4m3r | even less formal than a roadmap |
| 23:19.53 | L4m3r | then the debate can be over the details |
| 23:21.30 | brlcad | L4m3r: that's what I meant about high-level directions |
| 23:22.08 | L4m3r | it should be prioritized, though |
| 23:22.10 | brlcad | a list of the "big picture" changes like fully server-side game state and graphics engine integration, as well as a list of the smaller GSoC-level projects |
| 23:22.22 | L4m3r | there are quite a lot of "would be nice" aspects |
| 23:23.11 | brlcad | doesn't have to be anything more than the wiki, it just probably needs to have multiple voices contributing with culling of the outliers |
| 23:23.44 | brlcad | so it's really representative of the core directions being pushed/desired |
| 23:25.31 | brlcad | JeffM: you know you have a tendancy to jump on whatever is immediately being talked about? :) |
| 23:25.40 | JeffM | yes, yes I do |
| 23:25.52 | JeffM | why do you think I start talking about things ;) |
| 23:25.53 | L4m3r | quick, everyone talk about the server state! |
| 23:25.59 | L4m3r | :) |
| 23:26.03 | JeffM | now, I NEVER finish them |
| 23:26.07 | Constitution | and can we release 2.0.10 already? ;) |
| 23:26.17 | JeffM | but at least with wiki work the info is there for anyone |
| 23:26.24 | JeffM | Constitution, sure, do it |
| 23:26.29 | blast007 | heh |
| 23:26.59 | Constitution | okay then... package maintainers, ready? :) |
| 23:27.18 | CBG | Sorry to go off topic, but can someone recommend a great monitor manufacturer? :) |
| 23:27.40 | JeffM | we've had good luck with samsungs |
| 23:27.43 | brlcad | Constitution: ready as they'll ever be |
| 23:27.50 | JeffM | I bleive dell uses them for the internal displays |
| 23:28.00 | Constitution | okay then... |
| 23:28.14 | JeffM | Constitution, I can't build one today or tongih |
| 23:28.25 | JeffM | well maybe I can when I get home |
| 23:28.34 | CBG | JeffM: thanks man :) |
| 23:28.36 | JeffM | but windows can be last |
| 23:28.37 | Constitution | okay... where's CIA when we need him... |
| 23:28.42 | JeffM | gone |
| 23:28.43 | JeffM | dead |
| 23:28.45 | JeffM | buried |
| 23:28.45 | Constitution | he's in other channels... |
| 23:28.46 | blast007 | MIA |
| 23:28.47 | JeffM | busted |
| 23:28.52 | JeffM | ours is broken |
| 23:28.55 | JeffM | very much big time |
| 23:29.07 | blast007 | someone hugged him too hard |
| 23:29.19 | JeffM | eye's poped out, wasn't pretty |
| 23:32.13 | brlcad | hehe, "And what exactly are you supposed to do when printf() returns false? Display an error message?" |
| 23:32.27 | JeffM | hah |
| 23:45.00 | JeffM | there |
| 23:45.01 | JeffM | http://my.bzflag.org/w/DevelopmentGoals |
| 23:45.09 | JeffM | embrace and extend! |
| 23:45.28 | *** join/#bzflag rob1n (n=emp@unaffiliated/rob1n) |
| 23:46.00 | Constitution | BZ_BUILD_TYPE == MAINT? |
| 23:46.14 | JeffM | whatever .8 was |
| 23:54.19 | *** join/#bzflag a_meteor (n=a_meteor@adsl-75-15-121-30.dsl.snlo01.sbcglobal.net) |
| 23:54.29 | Constitution | was bzworkbench renamed? |
| 23:57.00 | blast007 | Constitution: not afaik |
| 23:57.03 | blast007 | why? |
| 23:57.35 | Constitution | It's "BZWorldBuilder" on that page |
| 23:57.39 | blast007 | oh |
| 23:59.09 | blast007 | really, one think about the current web stuff I'd like to see is better URLs |
| 23:59.28 | blast007 | it's fun telling people to go to "http://my.bzflag.org/bb/" to register |
