| 00:02.19 | SportChick | brlcad: got a minute? |
| 00:03.20 | *** join/#bzflag Webstrand (n=Webstran@ppp-69-221-226-237.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net) |
| 00:05.58 | Webstrand | I am having problems with bzfs dropping packets, http://putnote.net/78 is my debug log |
| 00:06.16 | Webstrand | i'm runnng on linux fc6 |
| 00:10.18 | blast007 | probably too many flags |
| 00:10.33 | *** join/#bzflag philbrick34 (n=ccd248c3@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 00:10.35 | blast007 | what does the +f stuff look like in your config? any that specify a number? |
| 00:11.14 | *** join/#bzflag Theme97 (n=Theme97@about/essy/phpwriter/Theme97) |
| 00:11.36 | Webstrand | +f good{5} or sumthin like that |
| 00:11.37 | Guu | Dunno. |
| 00:12.14 | blast007 | try just +f good |
| 00:12.17 | Webstrand | ok |
| 00:12.39 | Webstrand | oh, another note, when connected to using localhost, it works |
| 00:12.55 | blast007 | oh yeah, the windows server :) |
| 00:14.48 | Webstrand | http://putnote.net/79 is my .conf file |
| 00:15.37 | blast007 | might want to change the password now ;) |
| 00:15.48 | Webstrand | O.O ops lol |
| 00:16.27 | blast007 | do players connecting from the outside get in properly? |
| 00:16.36 | Webstrand | no |
| 00:16.42 | blast007 | hmm |
| 00:16.54 | blast007 | what version of Windows? |
| 00:17.26 | Webstrand | not windows, fedora core 6 |
| 00:17.26 | blast007 | oh |
| 00:17.27 | Webstrand | windows xp has same prob |
| 00:18.08 | Webstrand | um.... lets see i'm using no ip, my wrt54gl router is dmz forwarding my ip |
| 00:18.52 | blast007 | -a takes two paramaters, btw |
| 00:19.06 | blast007 | could be the DMZ |
| 00:19.16 | blast007 | can you try just doing port forwarding for the bzfs port? |
| 00:19.39 | Webstrand | dmz, says it forwards ALL ports, but ok |
| 00:19.58 | A-Delusion | make sure forwarding both UDP and TCP |
| 00:21.58 | Webstrand | yep, both |
| 00:22.03 | Webstrand | i'll retry |
| 00:23.25 | Webstrand | ok it works |
| 00:23.42 | Webstrand | appearently, dmz dosnt forward udp.... |
| 00:26.58 | Webstrand | how do i specify only red and blue are the teams? its a ctf server |
| 00:27.49 | A-Delusion | -mp 0 5 0 5 0 0 |
| 00:28.16 | A-Delusion | rogue, red green blue purp obs |
| 00:28.29 | Webstrand | thanks |
| 00:31.25 | *** join/#bzflag Theme97_ (n=Theme97@about/essy/phpwriter/Theme97) |
| 00:31.41 | Webstrand | no that didnt work :\ |
| 00:37.11 | blast007 | commas, not spaces :) |
| 00:47.56 | A-Delusion | oh yeah, good catch blast.. I've been mapping lately, thats why i went with spaces |
| 00:49.01 | blast007 | :) |
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| 00:55.04 | A-Delusion | >gobz |
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| 02:01.10 | jude- | pretty quiet tonight |
| 02:01.19 | KTL | *rraww* |
| 02:01.50 | *** join/#bzflag Constitution (n=Constitu@mmds-216-19-24-101.mm.az.commspeed.net) |
| 02:02.33 | jude- | whois jude |
| 02:02.39 | jude- | (ignore that) |
| 02:02.58 | jude- | (forgot the "/") |
| 02:03.19 | KTL | (quickly put it then, nobody has seen it) |
| 02:05.13 | jude- | BZFlag devs: I changed my nick from "jude" to "jude-" recently, but my proposal says that it's "jude". Should I mark that somewhere? I've already submitted my application, but I have a link to further information. Should I put it there? |
| 02:06.50 | L4m3r | they know who you are, jude- |
| 02:06.52 | L4m3r | ;) |
| 02:07.01 | jude- | kk |
| 02:07.02 | *** join/#bzflag PrezKennedy (n=Matthew@c-69-251-101-137.hsd1.md.comcast.net) |
| 02:07.31 | jude- | it's just that there is someone somewhere on freenode that uses "jude" as their nick |
| 02:07.37 | elg | mentors: no comments on my SoC application (applied Friday) - no news is good news? (or at least, you don't have any unanswered questions about it?) |
| 02:08.05 | jude- | mentors: same question for me |
| 02:08.46 | mastro | don't worry I too don't have any comments... |
| 02:08.50 | mastro | ... but I applied a few minutes ago ;-) |
| 02:22.20 | brlcad | it's BSG time |
| 02:22.32 | DTRemenak | mmm, that reminds me, I need to watch last week's... |
| 02:23.05 | jude- | brlcad: I see. |
| 02:23.10 | jude- | SciFi calls |
| 02:23.22 | DTRemenak | and code.google.com is really slow for me at the moment |
| 02:23.37 | DTRemenak | but generally, yes, no news is good news |
| 02:23.51 | DTRemenak | aw, you beat me to it |
| 02:24.25 | A-Delusion | I had already seen it, had the page loaded. |
| 02:25.08 | A-Delusion | had clicked on recent changes after a small edit. |
| 02:34.02 | elg | wii DTRemenak |
| 02:34.25 | elg | hm, apologies, my terminal has gone haywire |
| 02:34.33 | DTRemenak | heh |
| 02:34.46 | elg | iTerm on osx sometimes looses the ability to type slash |
| 02:34.55 | elg | and other keys |
| 02:34.59 | elg | goes away after a few minutes |
| 02:35.13 | DTRemenak | quality |
| 02:35.16 | elg | really bizarre bug |
| 02:36.45 | jude- | elg: even stranger, in X11 on Linux, sometimes the key repeater gets stuck |
| 02:37.02 | jude- | easily fixed by pressing the key again |
| 02:37.17 | elg | really? I've never had that problem |
| 02:38.34 | *** join/#bzflag trovao (n=trovao@201.78.240.251) |
| 02:43.22 | spldart | heh.. I thought I was the only one recording this one cuz he still hasn't watched last weeks episode |
| 02:47.48 | *** join/#bzflag elg (n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 02:52.25 | jude- | elg: you could use a different terminal... |
| 02:52.47 | jude- | or a graphical IRC client |
| 02:52.58 | elg | yeah, I sometimes switch to Terminal.app when it happens |
| 02:53.10 | elg | but I can't really get by without the tabbed windows for very long |
| 02:53.34 | jude- | Ever tried Konsole? |
| 02:53.46 | jude- | it's part of KDE, but there's an OSX port |
| 02:53.53 | elg | native? |
| 02:53.58 | jude- | pretty sure |
| 02:54.01 | jude- | needs X11, tho |
| 02:54.49 | elg | that's what I mean by native. X11 apps are ok, but they don't play as nicely with the keyboard |
| 02:54.58 | jude- | ah |
| 02:55.05 | jude- | probably not, then |
| 02:55.07 | elg | e.g. all x11 apps are the same app, so you can't cmd-tab between them |
| 02:55.48 | a_meteorite | leopard has tabs in the terminal |
| 02:56.12 | elg | oh? hadn't heard that |
| 03:00.50 | *** join/#bzflag elg (n=fugalh@falcon.fugal.net) |
| 03:01.06 | a_meteorite | elg: http://www.thinktechno.com/2007/01/25/leaked-screenshots-of-os-x-leopard-terminal-parental-controls-and-more/ |
| 03:03.01 | elg | a_meteorite: nifty. that's the first leopard bit that has me drooling |
| 03:03.41 | elg | so far I haven't had any reason to upgrade. virtual desktops would be nice too of course |
| 03:03.49 | elg | still, don't think I'd upgrade on my own dime |
| 03:04.10 | a_meteorite | I've upgraded to every release the day they come out |
| 03:04.19 | a_meteorite | I live on the bleeding edge (and mom's money) |
| 03:04.24 | elg | :) |
| 03:04.33 | a_meteorite | heh, I'll have to save up this upgrade. it's getting tight. |
| 03:04.53 | elg | I will probably upgrade with my bookstore allowance from my fellowship.. if the department gets the federal grant again |
| 03:13.11 | SportChick | brlcad: pingy |
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| 03:29.27 | SportChick | brlcad: don't make me call you :p |
| 03:34.32 | blast007 | heh |
| 03:35.37 | SportChick | DTRemenak: awake? |
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| 03:42.26 | *** part/#bzflag acmeuser (n=acmeuser@c911fdbe.bhz.virtua.com.br) |
| 04:02.21 | *** join/#bzflag bz14 (n=4cbb2fe4@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 04:09.57 | CIA-17 | BZFlag: 03timriker 07v2_0branch * 10bzflag/src/bzfs/bzfsAPI.cxx: mis-edit? patch from Petr Gajdos <pgajdos@suse.cz> |
| 04:14.20 | *** join/#bzflag TimRiker (n=timr@rikers.org) |
| 04:14.20 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 04:14.28 | CIA-17 | BZFlag: 03timriker * 10bzflag/src/bzfs/bzfsAPI.cxx: mis-edit? patch from Petr Gajdos <pgajdos@suse.cz> |
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| 04:33.33 | purple_cow | does win32 and OSX have getopt? |
| 04:34.49 | brlcad | osx certainly does, fairly cerain win32 does too somewhere |
| 04:35.14 | purple_cow | ok. second question. |
| 04:35.31 | purple_cow | will you and jeff come after me with pitchforks if I use it? |
| 04:36.11 | A-Delusion | jeff ususally uses a cudgel. |
| 04:36.19 | TimRiker | depends on if you cause more bugs adding it then you fix. |
| 04:36.29 | DTRemenak | win32 does not ship with a getopt impl |
| 04:36.41 | DTRemenak | vc rather |
| 04:37.45 | purple_cow | I suppose it'd break compatibility on the command-line UI |
| 04:37.46 | purple_cow | blah |
| 04:37.51 | brlcad | ahh right, that's why it works for cad .. we have our own getopt |
| 04:38.10 | DTRemenak | yeah, there are portable implementations you can snag if you are hell-bent on using it |
| 04:38.11 | brlcad | (for winders) |
| 04:39.02 | brlcad | yeah, the impl is just like 50 lines or so |
| 04:41.13 | SportChick | brlcad: you've got email if you haven't seen it |
| 04:41.27 | brlcad | i was avoiding e-mail most of the day |
| 04:41.39 | SportChick | brlcad: this one's interesting |
| 04:41.50 | SportChick | and recent |
| 04:58.09 | *** join/#bzflag JeffM2501 (n=JeffM@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/JeffM2501) |
| 04:58.09 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o JeffM2501] by ChanServ |
| 05:00.38 | JeffM2501 | yay, time to wipe a mini :) |
| 05:01.48 | L4m3r | did it get dusty propped up against the door like that? :P |
| 05:03.07 | JeffM2501 | heh |
| 05:03.16 | JeffM2501 | no, I'm replacing it with a laptop |
| 05:03.37 | JeffM2501 | have to get the data copied to the external, so I can sell the mini |
| 05:05.13 | L4m3r | heh |
| 05:05.44 | JeffM2501 | and the lapy is faster :) |
| 05:05.46 | L4m3r | I'd offer to buy it, but the door in here has a funky spring-loaded hinge that holds it open |
| 05:06.08 | L4m3r | and if I need an expensive paperweight, there's always the G3 imac :P |
| 05:06.18 | L4m3r | what kind of laptop? |
| 05:07.08 | JeffM2501 | AMD turion X2 |
| 05:07.11 | *** join/#bzflag Sir_Pants_ (n=Sir_Pant@67-42-80-2.tukw.qwest.net) |
| 05:07.14 | JeffM2501 | done by gateway |
| 05:07.20 | L4m3r | oh, right |
| 05:07.21 | JeffM2501 | the mini is not a bad little machine |
| 05:07.23 | L4m3r | that one |
| 05:07.24 | JeffM2501 | and it's LITTLE |
| 05:07.32 | JeffM2501 | could make a nice media box |
| 05:07.38 | L4m3r | yeah, my monitor would probably crush one |
| 05:07.42 | JeffM2501 | I just need the portable ness |
| 05:07.52 | JeffM2501 | yeah you put it NEXT to the display ;) |
| 05:10.58 | JeffM2501 | I'm just hoping I can get 300ish for it |
| 05:11.55 | L4m3r | why not? find a rich yuppie, they love macs :) |
| 05:12.12 | SportChick | JeffM2501: you have an email too |
| 05:12.14 | JeffM2501 | cus you they can just get a new one |
| 05:12.21 | brlcad | SportChick: I read -- tis interesting |
| 05:12.21 | JeffM2501 | SportChick, I have manyu |
| 05:12.23 | JeffM2501 | I just got home |
| 05:12.30 | brlcad | though the ip range is .. somewhat familiar |
| 05:12.32 | SportChick | JeffM2501: you only have one from me :) |
| 05:12.54 | JeffM2501 | my home or work mail? |
| 05:15.43 | SportChick | JeffM2501: hrm, let me look |
| 05:16.11 | SportChick | JeffM2501: aw, it went to work :( |
| 05:16.15 | SportChick | can you check it? |
| 05:16.38 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 05:16.43 | JeffM2501 | takes a while |
| 05:17.03 | SportChick | I'm not sure if I have your current home email anywya |
| 05:17.33 | *** join/#bzflag Rawk (n=unknown@203.109.176.242) |
| 05:17.55 | JeffM2501 | it's in my bzbb profile |
| 05:17.59 | JeffM2501 | everyone has it :) |
| 05:18.04 | SportChick | hehe |
| 05:18.08 | SportChick | apparently not me ;) |
| 05:20.09 | SportChick | ah, I do have that one somewhere |
| 05:24.17 | JeffM2501 | sounds plausable |
| 05:24.28 | JeffM2501 | should be not realy posible in 2.1 |
| 05:25.06 | DTRemenak | I can try it in 2.1 :P |
| 05:25.24 | JeffM2501 | shot pos is set by the servernow |
| 05:25.31 | DTRemenak | not dependent on pos |
| 05:25.45 | SportChick | we just replicated it |
| 05:25.49 | SportChick | ~dtremenak++ |
| 05:26.00 | DTRemenak | client is responsible for ending the expansion...it can just "forget" to do that, and "forget" to end the shot locally |
| 05:26.15 | DTRemenak | and get killed by the same sw a potentially infinite number of times |
| 05:26.30 | JeffM2501 | ahh |
| 05:26.30 | SportChick | until the SW player gets kicked for tk |
| 05:26.34 | DTRemenak | yup |
| 05:26.35 | JeffM2501 | we should end remote SWs |
| 05:26.42 | DTRemenak | nope, can't end 'em |
| 05:26.43 | JeffM2501 | that will be easy server side |
| 05:26.49 | DTRemenak | 'cause they can kill multiple players |
| 05:26.55 | JeffM2501 | I mean when time is up |
| 05:27.09 | DTRemenak | by the time the time is up, the firing player is already kicked |
| 05:27.27 | DTRemenak | if she didn't have a high score weight |
| 05:27.33 | JeffM2501 | what makes it diff from a normal fire? |
| 05:27.36 | blast007 | there is a grace period |
| 05:27.49 | DTRemenak | it can kill multiple people |
| 05:27.56 | DTRemenak | so the shot never really ends |
| 05:28.10 | DTRemenak | the client has code to end the shot locally, so no particular client can get killed by the same sw more than once |
| 05:28.26 | blast007 | DTRemenak: actually, I don't think that's the case |
| 05:28.33 | DTRemenak | blast007: heh... |
| 05:28.41 | DTRemenak | blast007: want me to demonstrate? :) |
| 05:28.41 | blast007 | at least not in 2.0.x |
| 05:28.42 | A-Delusion | one player was able to figure out if he spawned, then fired really quickly, the chain was broken |
| 05:29.05 | blast007 | DTRemenak: sure :) |
| 05:29.11 | DTRemenak | blast007: grep playing.cxx for "stopShot" |
| 05:29.38 | DTRemenak | blast007: or pick a server of your choice, I'll meet you there :P |
| 05:30.26 | DTRemenak | JeffM2501 is partly right, if we ended the shot after the expiry time, and checked the radius, it would be less practical, because you'd have to be lucky enough to spawn near the player that fired the sw |
| 05:30.39 | DTRemenak | and rad checks are easy |
| 05:30.43 | JeffM2501 | and that can happen normaly right? |
| 05:30.59 | DTRemenak | no, standard clients can't be hit by the same shot twice |
| 05:31.14 | DTRemenak | when they get hit, they strike it from their internal lists just like an endshot |
| 05:31.23 | JeffM2501 | and why isn't that happening now? |
| 05:31.32 | DTRemenak | modified client code |
| 05:31.46 | JeffM2501 | that should only jack up the moded client tho right? |
| 05:31.56 | DTRemenak | no, the killed message gets broadcast |
| 05:32.06 | JeffM2501 | by the SWing player? |
| 05:32.13 | DTRemenak | no |
| 05:32.18 | DTRemenak | read the logs again |
| 05:32.37 | JeffM2501 | can't |
| 05:32.47 | JeffM2501 | can we fix it? |
| 05:32.49 | DTRemenak | player a joins team x. player b has a modded client, and also joins team x. player a fires sw. |
| 05:33.03 | DTRemenak | player b dies multiple times. player a gets kicked for tking |
| 05:33.09 | JeffM2501 | ahh ok |
| 05:33.25 | JeffM2501 | kills have the shot ID right? |
| 05:33.28 | DTRemenak | yup |
| 05:33.42 | DTRemenak | sw are fixed position and known max radius, we can check for that |
| 05:33.43 | JeffM2501 | so we just disallow multiple kills from the same shot on the server side. |
| 05:33.50 | JeffM2501 | per player |
| 05:34.02 | DTRemenak | mmm...not really....shots on the server are not instanced |
| 05:34.11 | DTRemenak | a player can be killed more than once by different instances of the same shot id |
| 05:34.12 | JeffM2501 | I just mean in the kill message |
| 05:34.28 | JeffM2501 | ahh |
| 05:34.32 | JeffM2501 | so we'd have to track the time. |
| 05:34.46 | JeffM2501 | and keep a shot state |
| 05:34.49 | JeffM2501 | not a bad thing to do |
| 05:34.54 | DTRemenak | I think tracking the kill zone would be sufficient and easy, actually |
| 05:34.57 | JeffM2501 | keep a list of kills with the server side shot |
| 05:35.12 | JeffM2501 | then when it poofs, that list is cleared |
| 05:35.16 | DTRemenak | but yeah, ultimately we want shot state |
| 05:35.20 | JeffM2501 | sure |
| 05:35.28 | JeffM2501 | be part of that state |
| 05:35.32 | TimRiker | just drop kill msgs that come in less than respawn time. |
| 05:35.35 | JeffM2501 | we have to track the pos, area, and time |
| 05:35.44 | DTRemenak | TimRiker: we already do...you have to be alive |
| 05:35.52 | DTRemenak | in order to die |
| 05:36.01 | DTRemenak | auto-respawn is an easy mod |
| 05:36.03 | TimRiker | so the mod client is waiting an re-dieing later? |
| 05:36.16 | DTRemenak | yeah, basically die, spawn, die, spawn, die, spawn, etc |
| 05:36.29 | JeffM2501 | we need to track the shot |
| 05:36.33 | TimRiker | all kinds of fun. |
| 05:36.37 | JeffM2501 | for many reason's, this is just one more |
| 05:37.28 | DTRemenak | it's really quite a novel cheat though...we don't check if you're "really supposed to be dead", it's usually the opposite :) |
| 05:37.42 | JeffM2501 | yeah, we didn't think of greifers |
| 05:38.55 | DTRemenak | we really do need shot state though, when I was trying to dupe this I ended up with god mode several times...accidentally :P |
| 05:39.00 | JeffM2501 | can probably make a plugin on the server to track and kick the person here. |
| 05:39.32 | DTRemenak | no need to do plugin, can do it straight in the kill handler |
| 05:39.34 | *** join/#bzflag a_temp_dist (n=a_temp_d@about/essy/alarming/a-temp-dist) |
| 05:39.37 | DTRemenak | for sw |
| 05:39.38 | JeffM2501 | in 2.1? |
| 05:39.46 | JeffM2501 | sorry 2.0 |
| 05:39.48 | DTRemenak | fixed position/fixed radius |
| 05:39.49 | DTRemenak | yeah |
| 05:39.57 | JeffM2501 | k |
| 05:40.21 | DTRemenak | ~SportChick++ |
| 05:41.53 | SportChick | DTRemenak: there are a LOT of other people that deserve credit |
| 05:42.04 | DTRemenak | SportChick: that was for helping me test :) |
| 05:42.05 | SportChick | ~A-Delusion++ |
| 05:42.09 | DTRemenak | ~SportChick++ |
| 05:42.11 | SportChick | ~l4m3r++ |
| 05:42.15 | SportChick | ~blast007++ |
| 05:42.18 | SportChick | ~thumper_++ |
| 05:42.24 | SportChick | ~drunk_driver++ |
| 05:42.36 | JeffM2501 | all those and they didn't fix it yet? ;) |
| 05:42.52 | SportChick | JeffM2501: they helped determine it was a cheat and not a bug |
| 05:43.00 | SportChick | and track down WHO was cheating :) |
| 05:43.01 | JeffM2501 | I'm kidding |
| 05:43.14 | jude- | sorry to interrupt, but just out of curiousity, what does "~<nickname>++" mean? |
| 05:43.20 | DTRemenak | do we even keep ANY shot state in 2.0? |
| 05:43.23 | JeffM2501 | bot karma |
| 05:43.26 | SportChick | jude-: ~karma nick |
| 05:43.33 | JeffM2501 | just a way to say who does cool things |
| 05:43.38 | SportChick | ~karma L4m3r |
| 05:43.38 | ibot | l4m3r has karma of 33 |
| 05:43.44 | SportChick | ~karma Thumper_ |
| 05:43.45 | ibot | thumper_ has karma of 16 |
| 05:43.50 | SportChick | jude-: see? :) |
| 05:43.56 | jude- | yes. thank you |
| 05:43.57 | DTRemenak | ~karma SportChick |
| 05:43.57 | ibot | sportchick has karma of 505 |
| 05:44.10 | SportChick | bah, someone cheats |
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| 05:45.05 | *** part/#bzflag Tropican8 (i=user@c-69-137-19-228.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 05:49.25 | DTRemenak | JeffM2501: yeah, you're right, we don't have any persistent shot data at all in 2.0. gonna have to add some somewhere, either in bzfs or a plugin. your call. |
| 05:49.52 | JeffM2501 | I figured plug-in cus it's easy to distro |
| 05:49.56 | DTRemenak | I'd rather have it in bzfs personally, so you don't have to explicitly load it |
| 05:50.00 | JeffM2501 | but ether or is good |
| 05:50.04 | JeffM2501 | indeed |
| 05:50.04 | DTRemenak | but whatever |
| 05:50.21 | DTRemenak | and I am not going to do it tonight, it's bedtime |
| 05:50.28 | JeffM2501 | indeed |
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| 05:57.08 | purple_cow | JeffM2501: BasicEffect should never be instantiated, right? |
| 05:57.24 | JeffM2501 | IIRC it has pure virtuals, so no |
| 05:57.54 | JeffM2501 | it's just the base so they cab be iterated |
| 05:58.17 | purple_cow | it doesn't have pure virtuals, it has inline {} |
| 05:58.24 | JeffM2501 | ahh |
| 05:58.28 | purple_cow | which I want to make pure |
| 05:58.34 | JeffM2501 | sure sure |
| 05:59.05 | JeffM2501 | tho some of the effects may not use/implement all the fucntions |
| 05:59.12 | JeffM2501 | tho they should do the important ones |
| 05:59.23 | JeffM2501 | don't remember if there was any base shared code |
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| 06:00.28 | purple_cow | presumably they all at least implement "draw" |
| 06:00.32 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 06:02.05 | purple_cow | and all you need is one pure virtual in there to suffice |
| 06:02.25 | JeffM2501 | I just don't remmeber the code |
| 06:02.29 | JeffM2501 | do what ya need to :) |
| 06:03.46 | purple_cow | sweeping bodies under the carpet |
| 06:16.41 | chrismonster555 | ? |
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| 06:23.43 | purple_cow | man, JeffM2501 sometimes has some bizzare ws conventions |
| 06:23.48 | purple_cow | if ( test) |
| 06:23.49 | purple_cow | <PROTECTED> |
| 06:24.01 | JeffM2501 | those are typos |
| 06:24.06 | JeffM2501 | not conventions |
| 06:24.59 | purple_cow | except it's consistent |
| 06:25.07 | JeffM2501 | hah |
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| 06:28.32 | purple_cow | sigh |
| 06:28.41 | purple_cow | why does so much 3D code not use any spaces? |
| 06:29.02 | jude- | because otherwise the files would be extraordinarily long ;P |
| 06:29.05 | JeffM2501 | I thought you all liked that 80 col stuff? |
| 06:29.17 | purple_cow | you can wrap to the next line |
| 06:29.28 | JeffM2501 | vile |
| 06:30.33 | purple_cow | it's a lot more readable than something like this: |
| 06:30.35 | purple_cow | drawRingYZ(radius,0.5f /*+ (age * 0.125f)*/,1.0f+age*5,0.65f,pos[2],1.0f,32,5.0f); |
| 06:30.50 | JeffM2501 | job security |
| 06:30.53 | JeffM2501 | ;) |
| 06:31.42 | purple_cow | you're not getting paid for this |
| 06:32.26 | JeffM2501 | never said it was a good job |
| 06:32.42 | purple_cow | also, glTexCoord2f(0,1); ? |
| 06:32.52 | purple_cow | spaces don't increase computation time, ya know |
| 06:33.10 | JeffM2501 | reads fine to me |
| 06:33.17 | JeffM2501 | add em if you want |
| 06:33.37 | jude- | those are perfectly readable ;) |
| 06:33.52 | jude- | ...not that I'd do it, for the sake of others, tho |
| 06:34.53 | jude- | if u cn rd ths u cn get a jb prgmng |
| 06:35.20 | JeffM2501 | whatever floats the cow boat |
| 06:35.46 | purple_cow | it just boggles my mind |
| 06:36.03 | purple_cow | 3d hackers are generally starting out with code that's inherently difficult to read |
| 06:36.10 | purple_cow | due to large, poorly designed APIs |
| 06:36.19 | purple_cow | and so what do they do? eliminate whitespace! |
| 06:36.20 | jude- | translation: it make purple_cow sad |
| 06:37.01 | JeffM2501 | he's just complaining to complain, he knows I've enver followed our coding standards ;) |
| 06:38.17 | JeffM2501 | ever since you got the job |
| 06:39.19 | purple_cow | which job? |
| 06:39.40 | purple_cow | I distinctly remember complaining a lot, even back when I was doing bzedit |
| 06:39.58 | JeffM2501 | seemed less |
| 06:40.04 | JeffM2501 | maybe I'm just getting old |
| 06:41.28 | purple_cow | my standards were probably lower because I knew less |
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| 07:00.11 | gl-whizz | hi all |
| 07:14.00 | jude- | hello |
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| 07:34.53 | CIA-17 | BZFlag: 03davidtrowbridge * 10bzflag/src/bzflag/ (BaseLocalPlayer.cxx effectsRenderer.cxx effectsRenderer.h): Make some code prettier (and smaller). Also, fix a bunch of whitespace. |
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| 11:46.57 | Links2004[Links] | http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?p=104800#104800 |
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| 12:40.52 | *** topic/#bzflag is http://BZFlag.org || http://cia.navi.cx/stats/project/BZFlag || http://my.BZFlag.org/wiki/index.php/Getting_Help || Paste to http://bzflag.pastebin.ca || http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/9453 || http://ohloh.net/projects/189 || http://fisheye1.cenqua.com/browse/bzflag/bzflag || BZFlag is participating in GSoC: http://my.bzflag.org/w/Google_Summer_of_Code || GSoC students -- please include your irc nick in your proposal |
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| 12:46.07 | Links2004[Links] | have new idee bz_killallPlayer like cap |
| 12:48.42 | Links2004[Links] | http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?t=10448 |
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| 15:03.00 | jwir3 | does anyone know what the crystalspace cvs branch is called? |
| 15:03.47 | brlcad | http://my.bzflag.org/w/CrystalSpace_client |
| 15:04.06 | jwir3 | thanks! |
| 15:04.14 | brlcad | jwir3: were you going to apply for that? |
| 15:04.19 | Epyon | brlcad, whats the current application count? |
| 15:04.41 | jwir3 | brlcad: yeah, just polishing up the application now ;) Wanted to look at the source |
| 15:05.06 | brlcad | k, remember to leave some room for flexibility :) |
| 15:05.13 | brlcad | tupone's been making good progress :) |
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| 15:05.50 | brlcad | howdy TheRedBaron |
| 15:06.05 | TheRedBaron | howdy burlycad :) |
| 15:06.07 | brlcad | Epyon: erhm .. over two dozen |
| 15:06.15 | Links2004[Links] | pls need help http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?t=10448 |
| 15:06.37 | jwir3 | brlcad: right. thanks |
| 15:06.56 | TheRedBaron | brlcad: how's SoC? |
| 15:07.01 | brlcad | busy |
| 15:07.08 | brlcad | today is the last day for submissions |
| 15:07.19 | brlcad | looking for adding a few more mentors actually |
| 15:07.47 | brlcad | too many really good applications |
| 15:07.57 | brlcad | it will hurt to turn some of them down |
| 15:07.59 | TheRedBaron | you need some more incentives :) |
| 15:08.09 | brlcad | such as? |
| 15:08.14 | TheRedBaron | beats me... |
| 15:08.27 | TheRedBaron | what do you sterotypical programmers/devs like? |
| 15:08.52 | TheRedBaron | free pizza? |
| 15:09.18 | donny_baker | Links2004: you have to be patient on the forums thing |
| 15:09.28 | Manu | brlcad: is there any applications limit? |
| 15:09.54 | donny_baker | Links2004: if someone knows they will respond, no need to keep posting the link here |
| 15:10.07 | Links2004[Links] | k |
| 15:10.12 | TheRedBaron | ~bzflist |
| 15:10.12 | TheRedBaron | i think global just crashed |
| 15:10.42 | blast007 | TheRedBaron: maybe it's just you ;) |
| 15:10.52 | TheRedBaron | blast007: wouldn't be the first time :) |
| 15:11.52 | Manu | TheRedBaron: you know 1b0t is a bit slow ;) |
| 15:13.46 | TheRedBaron | brlcad: i'm assuming said needed mentors need dev/coding experience |
| 15:15.03 | jwir3 | TheRedBaron: you know, that has been an issue in other orgs |
| 15:15.18 | Manu | theredmentor :) |
| 15:15.26 | jwir3 | my opinion is no, because the mentor should be able to give advice on the overall scheme and design of the project |
| 15:15.30 | TheRedBaron | quantumdot: i'll menot you! |
| 15:15.31 | jwir3 | the student should do the coding |
| 15:15.33 | TheRedBaron | *mentor |
| 15:15.43 | jwir3 | just my opinion, though :) |
| 15:16.29 | TheRedBaron | quantumdot: or de-stractor? :) |
| 15:16.58 | quantumdot | jwir3: i find it difficult anyone can mentor and ask for things when he has no idea about the how-to's himself/herself |
| 15:17.22 | TheRedBaron | quantumdot: agreed |
| 15:17.25 | quantumdot | that does not mean TheRedBaron cannot be a fantastic mentor BTW |
| 15:17.44 | quantumdot | certainly i can tell I wont be suited for the job |
| 15:18.35 | KTL | how many applicants are there allready? i see manu asking if there is a limit :D |
| 15:19.01 | Manu | KTL: 25 |
| 15:19.14 | quantumdot | ow it doubled over the weekend |
| 15:19.19 | Manu | KTL: I mean a limit to be accepted |
| 15:19.30 | KTL | ah oef |
| 15:19.36 | KTL | and how many are there allready :) ? |
| 15:19.58 | KTL | ah full house |
| 15:20.09 | KTL | euhm but the deadline is over now i guess |
| 15:20.15 | Manu | KTL: well, really there are 28 ;) |
| 15:20.29 | Manu | today is the deadline |
| 15:20.39 | elg | 1700 pdt iirc |
| 15:20.44 | KTL | ok i expect a euhm game with built in sauna and massage room next year then :) |
| 15:21.00 | jwir3 | quantumdot: I disagree |
| 15:21.12 | quantumdot | jwir3: ok :) |
| 15:21.29 | jwir3 | quantumdot: Software Engineers accept mentoring from people all the time who are experts in their field, but no nothing about coding or computers |
| 15:21.49 | quantumdot | that's maybe because you never experienced to have a supervisor who had no idea whatsoever of how to do the stuff he was asking :) |
| 15:21.59 | jwir3 | yes I have ;) |
| 15:22.19 | jwir3 | but, it is part of life as a coder in general. It's something people have to get used to |
| 15:22.43 | jwir3 | knowing how to communicate effectively with someone who doesn't understand the details is a valuable skill to have |
| 15:22.46 | TheRedBaron | jwir3: I agree with quantumdot. For once. |
| 15:22.50 | quantumdot | that means in Theoretical Physics (my field) mentorship is understood differently |
| 15:23.26 | TheRedBaron | While it can be done, I think the feasible and more desireable situation, is to have a mentor, who has some idea how to accomplish the set goals |
| 15:23.36 | brlcad | Manu: applications limit? |
| 15:23.44 | brlcad | for students or orgs? |
| 15:23.54 | Manu | brlcad: how manu applications can be selected |
| 15:23.56 | brlcad | TheRedBaron: not necessarily |
| 15:24.01 | Manu | many* ;) |
| 15:24.17 | brlcad | Manu: we don't "select" them .. we just rank them |
| 15:24.25 | brlcad | and request N slots |
| 15:24.39 | quantumdot | N being ...? |
| 15:24.44 | Manu | brlcad: well, what's the value of N? k |
| 15:24.46 | jwir3 | quantumdot: I think maybe we are speaking about different things. I see your point of view, and I understand what you are saying - obviously having mentors that can code is probably desirable, I am just outlining that in the face of insufficient mentors, utilizing ones who know the goal of the organization, rather than the implementation, may be necessary and desired |
| 15:25.07 | jwir3 | N = O(k) |
| 15:25.09 | jwir3 | hehe |
| 15:25.14 | brlcad | N is unknown, but based on number of applications, number of mentors, and a few other hand-waving factors |
| 15:25.46 | Manu | brlcad: I understand, that's why you are looking for mentors :) |
| 15:26.04 | elg | can mentors double up? |
| 15:26.06 | brlcad | jwir3: quite true -- they don't necessarily need to be able to code if they can "manage" and mentor effectively (if it means getting in touch with other devs, etc) |
| 15:26.11 | brlcad | elg: it's not recommended |
| 15:26.32 | jwir3 | anyway, I was wondering if maybe someone could take a look at this, and let me know if they see any glaring errors or things that are not on target: http://my.bzflag.org/w/Jwir3:csproposal |
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| 15:26.55 | elg | my project for example - all the mentoring I need is someone who knows the code and network protocol and can answer questions |
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| 15:28.04 | Epyon | jwir3, one day for documenting and polishing? |
| 15:28.56 | brlcad | if someone feels that they can mentor and are willing to do so (even if you haven't been approached), feel free to send me a PM to discuss |
| 15:29.09 | Epyon | jwir3, if you want to raise your chances, I'd suggest moving the research time out of the coding time. |
| 15:29.19 | TheRedBaron | brlcad: can one nominate some one? |
| 15:29.24 | TheRedBaron | :) |
| 15:29.44 | brlcad | TheRedBaron: sure, but I'm not going to chase them down :) |
| 15:29.49 | quantumdot | hehehe |
| 15:30.04 | jwir3 | Epyon: ok. Yeah, that's probably not realistic. I don't know what I was thinking |
| 15:30.11 | quantumdot | TheRedBaron: originality is neverending :P |
| 15:30.26 | brlcad | would need to be someone that hangs out here enough to get messages and interact from time to time |
| 15:30.45 | Epyon | jwir3, if you move the research time out, then you'll have some extra time for that too ;] |
| 15:30.53 | TheRedBaron | ha! |
| 15:31.11 | quantumdot | as i said: no way |
| 15:31.19 | TheRedBaron | quantumdot: has that stopped me? :D |
| 15:32.00 | quantumdot | i already supervise 3 PhD students, and trust me, in my field you better know what you are doing :) |
| 15:32.07 | jwir3 | Epyon: yep, just thought of that. Thanks for the input! |
| 15:34.56 | brlcad | quantumdot: you could supervise someone's work on improving (decreasing) lag issues ;) |
| 15:36.21 | quantumdot | brlcad: i can only see one solution to that .... setting up bzflag servers in the middle of the atlantic ocean. I know it is a pedestrian solution, but hey, I am a mathematician what'd you expect? |
| 15:39.37 | ts | Manu: Some applications regarding the network "enahancing"? |
| 15:40.00 | Manu | ts, if I say yes you'll accept? :) |
| 15:40.14 | ts | Manu: Accept to do whatß |
| 15:40.20 | ts | s/ß/?/ |
| 15:40.27 | ts | fat fingers |
| 15:40.29 | Manu | ts: become mentor |
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| 15:40.58 | ts | Manu: Aheam, I do not think I would be competent enough for that kind of thing |
| 15:41.14 | Manu | ts: why? |
| 15:41.35 | ts | Manu: I hardly spent my time coding, I'm rather playing.. |
| 15:41.55 | ts | Manu: Also I have very little clue about how the networking currently works |
| 15:41.58 | Manu | ts: you don't need to code |
| 15:42.01 | ts | Manu: as it is not documented |
| 15:42.15 | Manu | it isn't a problem, the students can ask here |
| 15:42.20 | brlcad | it doesn't have to be networking, there are lots of task areas |
| 15:42.27 | ts | Manu: Yeah, but with coding I may understand _how_ the protocol works |
| 15:42.40 | TheRedBaron | under the wiki: what is with two player tanks? |
| 15:42.45 | brlcad | you're certainly more competent in the code and familiar with our "operating procedures" for making changes than the student will be |
| 15:42.51 | brlcad | TheRedBaron: what about it? |
| 15:42.56 | Manu | TheRedBaron: two playeers in a tank ;) |
| 15:43.08 | TheRedBaron | manu, look - http://my.bzflag.org/w/Google_Summer_of_Code |
| 15:43.10 | Manu | TheRedBaron: sry ;) |
| 15:43.11 | ts | brlcad: Heh, my C looks like Haskell.. |
| 15:43.26 | TheRedBaron | Manu: oh please, laugh away, I did also when I read it :) |
| 15:43.43 | brlcad | ts: you're not reviewing their code or even necessarily answering all of their coding questions -- that much is more communal |
| 15:43.55 | Manu | TheRedBaron: read it.. two players one drive the other move the turret :) |
| 15:43.59 | TheRedBaron | brclad: unless one does orbital/moving turrets... why two players in 1 tank |
| 15:44.10 | brlcad | you would be involved in their final review (did they do what they said they were going to do) |
| 15:44.21 | ts | brlcad: What do mentors do then? |
| 15:44.27 | TheRedBaron | but IIRC have the turrets moving was a no-go |
| 15:44.31 | brlcad | and making sure they don't get stuck (whether that means finding an answer, or finding a dev that can answer) |
| 15:44.34 | ruskie | ts, you rubber stamp their work |
| 15:44.43 | ts | ruskie: Hah! |
| 15:44.46 | ruskie | and point them in the right direction :) |
| 15:45.12 | elg | and convince the People Who Know to answer their questions ;-) |
| 15:45.35 | brlcad | pointing them in the right direction is very important (constant interaction), making sure they don't go down a route that cannot be integrated |
| 15:45.53 | ruskie | or making sure they don't sleep on the job then collect the cash and split |
| 15:46.09 | Manu | too :) |
| 15:46.58 | brlcad | make all students submit weekly status updates in addition to remaining on the channel while working |
| 15:47.04 | TheRedBaron | so two players in a tank. I guess that means we will have moveable turrets? |
| 15:47.12 | ruskie | *shudder* |
| 15:47.17 | ruskie | that spoils the game... |
| 15:47.28 | brlcad | TheRedBaron: that is the basic idea, though turret movement is still limited |
| 15:47.39 | ts | moving turrets is eek |
| 15:47.44 | TheRedBaron | ~lart brlcad |
| 15:47.44 | ibot | cats /dev/urandom into brlcad's ear |
| 15:47.52 | ts | BZ is not counterstrike |
| 15:47.52 | brlcad | the concern has predominantly been the impact on input controls, simplicity |
| 15:48.01 | ruskie | they are simple |
| 15:48.12 | ruskie | move left turn left move right turn right etc... |
| 15:48.17 | ruskie | nothing complicated there... |
| 15:48.57 | brlcad | separating the task between two people keeps it simple for each player (actually decreases a degree of freedom for at least one of the pair) |
| 15:48.57 | Manu | brlcad: real 3d move can be interesting too, now the tank move is in the plane |
| 15:49.15 | brlcad | Manu: perhaps, but I wouldn't start that drastic even |
| 15:49.20 | brlcad | just rotational |
| 15:49.25 | ruskie | brlcad, and how would the two players interact? |
| 15:49.26 | Manu | brlcad: it's only an idea ;) |
| 15:49.47 | TheRedBaron | ruskie: there will be alot of *&!*&^@$!! going on |
| 15:49.54 | ts | Manu: So is someone applying for the network enhancements? |
| 15:49.56 | TheRedBaron | unless there are using a voice system |
| 15:50.07 | Epyon | ruskie, this could only work if both would be using the same keyboard |
| 15:50.11 | ruskie | there'll be a lot of !@^%#$ going on with that as well |
| 15:50.15 | Epyon | ruskie, IMHO that is :> |
| 15:50.18 | brlcad | Manu: yeah, I've thought about it .. quite a bit :) .. it's certainly doable and still with the same degrees of freedom as now -- but the player reaction becomes a bigger issue |
| 15:50.37 | Epyon | ruskie, true ^^ |
| 15:50.45 | ruskie | i.e. why didn't you shoot that guy.. why did you drive into that bullet etc... |
| 15:50.51 | ts | TheRedBaron: I think the two player tanks will be uplayable |
| 15:50.59 | ruskie | agreed |
| 15:51.05 | ts | One will dodge with their fast mouse |
| 15:51.10 | Epyon | ruskie, the OTHER player would always be fault of everything :> |
| 15:51.14 | ts | the other one can not adjust as quick |
| 15:51.31 | TheRedBaron | I"m sure siamese twins could master it |
| 15:51.36 | ts | better would be one drives, the other one only shoots |
| 15:51.45 | ts | with no turret moving |
| 15:52.03 | ruskie | turret movement should not be in... no matter what... |
| 15:52.03 | Epyon | TheRedBaron, I'd rather do BZF blind mode instead :P |
| 15:52.08 | Manu | ts: it's implemented now.. I drive you shoot ;) |
| 15:52.19 | TheRedBaron | ts: no, thats just stupid then. Using two people accomplish what one person can do? |
| 15:52.26 | Manu | in the same pc, not in different ones :) |
| 15:52.35 | brlcad | have you guys ever played a two-player vehicle game? |
| 15:52.41 | TheRedBaron | brlcad: yes |
| 15:52.47 | brlcad | it works surprisingly well in some games |
| 15:52.52 | Manu | yep |
| 15:52.53 | TheRedBaron | halo, bf series, various other FPS |
| 15:53.00 | TheRedBaron | brlcad: the difference being "some games" :) |
| 15:53.03 | ts | TheRedBaron: Well, otherwise they have an huge advantage |
| 15:53.21 | brlcad | TheRedBaron: sure, it wouldn't be deployed if it didn't work well |
| 15:53.42 | brlcad | bz is probably one of the easiest games to get working well, because the DOF are already so limited |
| 15:53.54 | ruskie | I highly doubt this would work well on most maps... |
| 15:54.05 | ts | Manu: Well, on 1 C it's cheap |
| 15:54.29 | ts | Manu: 1 mouse for shooting, 1 for turning and jumping |
| 15:54.54 | Manu | ts: no, I drive and shoot.. you bring me the beers ;) |
| 15:55.02 | brlcad | ruskie: people can argue about fault, but in general that rarely happens -- you team up with players that you implicitly trust and know that bad things happen |
| 15:55.09 | brlcad | like choosing teammates for league matches |
| 15:55.16 | brlcad | it's not much different really |
| 15:55.27 | brlcad | it encourages a collaboration of sorts too |
| 15:55.52 | brlcad | you become aware of where your gunner is aiming, so you can effectively dodge and get them in position for a good shot |
| 15:56.08 | ruskie | so you have two locations to watch... |
| 15:56.17 | ruskie | i.e. out the window and gunner |
| 15:56.23 | ruskie | then you also need the check the radar... |
| 15:56.28 | ruskie | so it's 3 things at the same time |
| 15:56.31 | brlcad | you have to keep track of your position even by yourself |
| 15:56.36 | ruskie | yeah |
| 15:56.40 | ruskie | but that only takes 2 checks |
| 15:56.42 | Manu | brlcad: probably the problems is the communication it's difficult if no communication and difficult to move and write at the same time |
| 15:56.44 | ruskie | out the window and radar |
| 15:56.49 | TheRedBaron | brlcad: I"m not saying it can't be done... |
| 15:56.53 | TheRedBaron | but in bz? |
| 15:57.00 | TheRedBaron | Thats not what bz is. |
| 15:57.06 | *** join/#bzflag gl-whizz (n=gl-whizz@ip255-32-173-82.dyndsl.versatel.nl) |
| 15:57.06 | ruskie | you also planing to integrate voice comm into the game then? |
| 15:57.16 | ruskie | else this becomes useless |
| 15:57.26 | gl-whizz | hi |
| 15:57.33 | brlcad | TheRedBaron: i'm actually more than a bit surprised by your response |
| 15:57.51 | TheRedBaron | brlcad: what? I haven't broken out the riot gear yet? |
| 15:57.51 | ts | Manu: In the league I don't communicate with my mates about strategy, we exactly know what the other one will be doing next moment |
| 15:57.53 | brlcad | ruskie: no, that's rediculous and impractical |
| 15:58.10 | Manu | ts: yes but driving differents tanks. I do it too |
| 15:58.13 | TheRedBaron | :) |
| 15:58.22 | brlcad | ts: exactly.. and that same behavior translates to multiplayer tanks |
| 15:58.40 | brlcad | you become familiar with your driver/gunner's habits |
| 15:58.50 | ts | sure |
| 15:58.52 | ruskie | onlf if you keep playing that combo all the time |
| 15:59.03 | brlcad | it wouldn't be something enabled on all maps either, it would be server-enabled like jumping and other aspects are now |
| 15:59.09 | ts | brlcad: And they'll get seasick from my steering :D |
| 15:59.12 | TheRedBaron | although there is a huge interaction difference |
| 15:59.22 | brlcad | sure, it's more direct |
| 15:59.27 | Manu | brlcad: then 2 players in the same room have advantage over others too |
| 15:59.30 | TheRedBaron | in two different tanks, you are not fully dependant on your teamate |
| 15:59.35 | TheRedBaron | when in the same vehicle, you are |
| 15:59.51 | brlcad | TheRedBaron: surprised given you're a ducati-style player and those maps make more sense than any for being effective at 2-player |
| 15:59.52 | ts | depends |
| 16:00.06 | Manu | brlcad: what I mean is the communication is a big lack |
| 16:00.08 | TheRedBaron | I trust my teamates to carry out their operation, and have a backup plan in case of failure |
| 16:00.16 | ts | In CTF the dependency is rather high |
| 16:00.23 | Manu | brlcad: but it can be done, of course :) |
| 16:00.34 | TheRedBaron | brlcad: actually, I think this will be more usefull in jumping maps, when executing a jumpshot on some one |
| 16:00.49 | TheRedBaron | brlcad: should the ducati map have enough buildings, rico will cover you :) |
| 16:01.56 | Chestal | rotating turrets? blasphemy! that's worse than jumping |
| 16:02.02 | ruskie | :) |
| 16:02.03 | Manu | hehe |
| 16:02.04 | TheRedBaron | ~chestal++ |
| 16:02.16 | ts | true |
| 16:02.16 | ruskie | I think rotating turrets won't pass go in here... |
| 16:02.33 | ruskie | though one could imagine interesting games with them... |
| 16:02.33 | Manu | Chestal: in true live tanks can jump, but in a different way ;) |
| 16:02.41 | TheRedBaron | brlcad: ducati is simple - rotating turrets are another level of "cheesy" complexity (instead of calling it useless) |
| 16:03.11 | TheRedBaron | when you add another level of complexity to the map/style - aka jumping. Then it makes more sense to add another set of controls |
| 16:03.22 | TheRedBaron | well, not really |
| 16:03.23 | brlcad | it's not that the alternatives don't work -- they of course do |
| 16:03.44 | brlcad | it's not adding another control -- from a given player's perspective it's actually removing at least one |
| 16:03.47 | TheRedBaron | I"m still against rotating turrets, just not in the mood to break out the pitchforks and torches |
| 16:03.52 | TheRedBaron | :) |
| 16:04.04 | ruskie | and how do you count players/tanks then in game? |
| 16:04.19 | Manu | Integration of Crystal Space... tupone must be happy now :) |
| 16:04.24 | brlcad | and it still would be optional even for servers that enabled it, so what's the concern? |
| 16:04.39 | ruskie | is each tank able to be one or two player and tanks are effective messuring unit of teams? |
| 16:04.43 | ts | Manu: BTW: Can you drive through some boxes on viper, too? |
| 16:04.56 | Manu | ts: yes, with OO ;) |
| 16:05.07 | ruskie | you can even shoot out of some :) |
| 16:05.09 | Manu | and pressing some key |
| 16:05.09 | TheRedBaron | brlcad: its blasphemy, it must not be tolerated! |
| 16:05.17 | ts | Manu: In my CS client I drive through some boxes and not through other |
| 16:05.19 | ts | s |
| 16:05.32 | Manu | ts: it's preAlpha ;) |
| 16:05.50 | brlcad | TheRedBaron: it's FUD with the arguments being made |
| 16:05.55 | ts | Manu: At least I see something :D |
| 16:06.02 | Manu | ts: hehe |
| 16:06.02 | TheRedBaron | ~dict FUD |
| 16:06.26 | Manu | ts: with the CS version I also can kill my teammates ;) |
| 16:06.35 | ts | Manu: In addition to that I can drive, I only need to push either right or left mouse key to change direction |
| 16:06.55 | Manu | ts: I can do everything in the CS version |
| 16:06.58 | ts | Without pushing mouse key, mouse is ignored |
| 16:07.17 | Manu | mouse works for me :/ |
| 16:07.34 | ts | For me, too. Just push right button all the time |
| 16:08.54 | TheRedBaron | well |
| 16:09.01 | TheRedBaron | I see no alterations to the radar on SoC, so it looks safe :) |
| 16:09.14 | TheRedBaron | brlcad: I'll volunteer to mentor any radar changes :) |
| 16:09.26 | ts | heh |
| 16:09.36 | ts | bring on the round radar :D |
| 16:10.06 | brlcad | there's already a great radar mod that has been sitting in patches for over a year |
| 16:10.17 | brlcad | lets you toggle to full-screen overlay |
| 16:10.21 | ruskie | bring on a passive/active radar mode |
| 16:10.36 | Manu | ts: right click works fine for me |
| 16:11.07 | ts | Manu: For me, too. I just have to click some button or it will not react to my mouse movement changes |
| 16:11.19 | brlcad | ts / TheRedBaron if you're interested/serious about mentoring -- today would be the time to sign up, it will impact slot allocations |
| 16:11.24 | ts | Manu: Keeping left button pressed is not so good |
| 16:11.40 | Manu | ts: no issues here |
| 16:11.44 | ts | Err, Umm, I'm really not sure |
| 16:12.23 | brlcad | you have about 7 hours to think it over :) |
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| 16:12.32 | Manu | ts: hurry up |
| 16:12.57 | ruskie | hmm a fullscreen radar overlay would be nice... |
| 16:12.58 | ts | really no patches and sourcecode involved? |
| 16:13.32 | brlcad | ts: you could certainly test their code changes, no? |
| 16:13.50 | ruskie | ts, it's like diploma work or some such... mentor only provides input and stuff... student does the acctual work |
| 16:14.16 | brlcad | you wouldn't necessarily be giving advice on how/what to code -- more like their "agent" to make sure they get taken care of |
| 16:14.28 | ts | brlcad: testing, yes..but couldn't work on the goals.. |
| 16:14.36 | Manu | brlcad: there is an impatient guy at applications list ;) |
| 16:14.45 | brlcad | ts: you wouldn't have to write a single line of code if that is what you are asking |
| 16:14.49 | ts | neither explaining how bz does the stuff in source code |
| 16:15.10 | brlcad | ts: but you could get answers to their questions probably |
| 16:15.23 | brlcad | either by looking at the code, or by asking one of the other devs |
| 16:15.29 | brlcad | a great way to learn the codebase more too |
| 16:15.30 | ts | yes |
| 16:15.45 | brlcad | depends entirely on the task too |
| 16:16.55 | brlcad | you can sign up at http://code.google.com/soc/mentor.html if you are interested, log in with a google account, select bzflag as your org |
| 16:20.12 | ts | heh, the organisation will decide |
| 16:23.11 | brlcad | SportChick: actually I was thinking of you |
| 16:23.36 | SportChick | me? why? |
| 16:23.52 | brlcad | you've certainly got the personal-networking and guidance skills |
| 16:24.04 | brlcad | same reason you're a good staffer |
| 16:24.27 | SportChick | hrm...how much time would it take though? |
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| 16:24.31 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o JeffM2501] by ChanServ |
| 16:24.45 | brlcad | SportChick: depends on a lot of things, but a few hours a week at least |
| 16:25.06 | brlcad | there's a final "review" and writeup of the students that mentors need to prepare |
| 16:25.11 | SportChick | I'm already feeling a bit overextended & I don't like doing things if I don't have the time to do it well |
| 16:25.23 | brlcad | understandable, just a thought :) |
| 16:25.48 | JeffM2501 | how many mentors do you think we'll get? |
| 16:25.49 | SportChick | you don't have to know the first thing about coding? |
| 16:26.00 | brlcad | JeffM2501: you mean students? |
| 16:26.03 | SportChick | isn't that a bit unfair to the student? |
| 16:26.05 | JeffM2501 | no |
| 16:26.08 | JeffM2501 | I mean mentors |
| 16:26.17 | brlcad | we get as many mentors as we allow |
| 16:26.32 | Manu | JeffM2501: 1 per students ;) (joking) |
| 16:26.35 | ts | brlcad: What happens if I am rather busy at the end of gsoc? |
| 16:26.41 | brlcad | the number of mentors in turn affects the number of students we get |
| 16:26.56 | SportChick | brlcad: just for my info, what time is the deadline? |
| 16:26.57 | brlcad | ts: we take you out back behind the shed and shoot you |
| 16:27.06 | brlcad | SportChick: 5pm your time :) |
| 16:27.14 | *** join/#bzflag Erroneous (n=dtremena@67-131-219-2.dia.static.qwest.net) |
| 16:27.16 | ts | brlcad: Eeek :/ |
| 16:27.28 | SportChick | hrm...not sure if I'll be to a computer by then |
| 16:27.36 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v Erroneous] by ChanServ |
| 16:27.41 | brlcad | actually not sure if mentors can sign up after the student deadline, but thats when submissions close |
| 16:27.57 | SportChick | you don't have to know the first thing about coding? |
| 16:28.01 | Epyon | ts, brlcad, cool, will we be able to keep the bullet? :P |
| 16:28.03 | SportChick | isn't that a bit unfair to the student? |
| 16:28.30 | Erroneous | technical help will be provided primarily through this channel, regardless of who the mentor is |
| 16:28.46 | brlcad | ahh, yes -- that's the deadline 5PM .. so about 7.5 hours |
| 16:29.02 | brlcad | Epyon: keep the bullet? |
| 16:29.18 | SportChick | I doubt we'll make it - driving to Berkeley |
| 16:29.59 | brlcad | SportChick: yeah, what Erroneous said -- the technical help is communal like always -- the mentor's task is more of an "agent" role to make sure the student is on task, working, making progress, not stuck, interacting, etc |
| 16:30.11 | Erroneous | basically the mentor is more of a facilitator and evaluator |
| 16:30.17 | brlcad | exactly |
| 16:30.21 | JeffM2501 | brlcad, I mean how many do think will agree? |
| 16:30.33 | JeffM2501 | "get" from an our standpoint, not google |
| 16:30.47 | brlcad | agree to be listed as a mentor? |
| 16:30.50 | ts | brlcad: really, I'm unsure whether I have time in July |
| 16:30.55 | brlcad | i'd presume everyone for at least some project/topic |
| 16:31.00 | JeffM2501 | and agree to take on a project |
| 16:31.06 | JeffM2501 | ok |
| 16:31.20 | JeffM2501 | and can we do more then one mentor per student? |
| 16:31.31 | brlcad | we can, but it's frowned upon |
| 16:31.35 | JeffM2501 | ok |
| 16:31.41 | brlcad | wouldn't do it for more than one or two mentors |
| 16:31.43 | JeffM2501 | and how many mentors do we have now? |
| 16:31.49 | brlcad | 7 |
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| 16:32.17 | brlcad | yeah, you do get a free t-shirt :) |
| 16:32.23 | JeffM2501 | and you are thinking we are geting more then 7 slots? |
| 16:32.45 | Epyon | 630 students, 138 projects... |
| 16:32.54 | Erroneous | 800 students |
| 16:32.56 | brlcad | the # slots is correlated by the number of mentors, applications, and overall distribution |
| 16:33.06 | JeffM2501 | so there is a posibility? |
| 16:33.20 | JeffM2501 | how many unique ideas do we have so far? |
| 16:33.27 | brlcad | on average, there's going to be 6 per org |
| 16:33.28 | TimRiker | so more mentors may mean more slots? |
| 16:33.31 | Epyon | Erroneous, would be good, is that confirmed? |
| 16:33.35 | brlcad | TimRiker: yes |
| 16:33.45 | Erroneous | Epyon: yeah, that's as per google...they're shooting for sponsoring 800 this year |
| 16:33.49 | TimRiker | ah. then signing up was a Good Thing. :) |
| 16:34.02 | brlcad | TimRiker: indeed |
| 16:34.12 | Epyon | I'm unsure that works so, I think more mentors up to the slotcount. Providing 40 mentors for a project to get additional slots would seem stupid wouldn't it? |
| 16:34.14 | Erroneous | JeffM2501: I think the idea is that we CAN'T get more slots than mentors, regardless of whether we WOULD :) |
| 16:34.18 | brlcad | we certainly don't want to over-extend our ability to interact with the students |
| 16:34.28 | JeffM2501 | Erroneous, I get that part, just curious questions now |
| 16:34.34 | JeffM2501 | not doubting the asking of others at all |
| 16:34.35 | Erroneous | ah, ok |
| 16:34.48 | JeffM2501 | been in landcaster, haven't kept up :) |
| 16:35.10 | brlcad | it'd certainly be better to have 2 students with a lot of focused attention than 10 half-arsed projects making little project because of lack of interaction |
| 16:35.23 | brlcad | s/little project/little progress/ |
| 16:35.37 | Erroneous | mhm |
| 16:36.05 | JeffM2501 | how many uniques do we have? |
| 16:36.07 | JeffM2501 | 4-5? |
| 16:36.17 | brlcad | more than that iirc |
| 16:36.17 | JeffM2501 | cool |
| 16:36.28 | Epyon | cool for you :P |
| 16:36.36 | JeffM2501 | so stuff ends today, how long do we have to rank? |
| 16:36.40 | Erroneous | Epyon: you don't need to worry :P |
| 16:36.47 | brlcad | for existing mentors.. wrote up this to help: http://my.bzflag.org/w/Google_Summer_of_Code_Evaluation |
| 16:36.58 | JeffM2501 | ahh we got a lot more |
| 16:36.59 | brlcad | we have a week and a half starting today |
| 16:37.00 | JeffM2501 | nice |
| 16:37.04 | JeffM2501 | ok |
| 16:37.13 | Epyon | Erroneous, I assume it's another "for" vote from a mentor? |
| 16:37.15 | JeffM2501 | you want to do it as a group? or have us all read/rank? |
| 16:37.24 | Epyon | :) |
| 16:37.33 | brlcad | i'd just have everyone read/rank for starters |
| 16:37.44 | JeffM2501 | k |
| 16:37.52 | JeffM2501 | I'll go over them tonight then |
| 16:37.54 | brlcad | then we can discuss over the week to see how things sort out for assigning mentors |
| 16:38.04 | brlcad | some mentors are rather "focused" on their interest areas |
| 16:38.16 | JeffM2501 | just as some students are |
| 16:38.29 | JeffM2501 | some "proposals" are weak and go all over they place |
| 16:38.38 | JeffM2501 | like they are simply "let me work so I can get money" |
| 16:39.35 | Epyon | JeffM2501, there are many of those? :P |
| 16:39.58 | brlcad | not a whole lot, and they will get ranked down quickly if they're not already |
| 16:40.15 | jwir3 | JeffM2501: no way, it says that in the proposal? |
| 16:40.17 | JeffM2501 | most are unranked |
| 16:40.19 | jwir3 | work, so I can get money? |
| 16:40.34 | JeffM2501 | jwir3, n |
| 16:40.41 | JeffM2501 | no but that's obviously the intent |
| 16:40.49 | jwir3 | oh ok, I get it ;) |
| 16:41.04 | JeffM2501 | what is the mode to set a channel invite only? |
| 16:41.11 | brlcad | gah, no wonder nobody is answering me |
| 16:41.13 | JeffM2501 | +i? |
| 16:41.14 | Guu` | JeffM2501: Error: "i?" is not a valid command. |
| 16:41.15 | jwir3 | +i maybe? |
| 16:41.16 | Guu` | Dunno! |
| 16:41.19 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o brlcad] by ChanServ |
| 16:41.40 | brlcad | stupid split, stupid filtering |
| 16:41.48 | brlcad | BearPerson: can't anything be done about that? :) |
| 16:41.54 | menotume | brlcad: mooooooOOOO |
| 16:41.59 | jwir3 | brlcad: I would say no, but I'm relatively new to bzflag, so I dunno |
| 16:42.12 | jwir3 | brlcad: in fact, not relatively new - I *am* new hehe |
| 16:42.20 | SportChick | brlcad: & who mentors the mantors? :p |
| 16:42.20 | BearPerson | we're working on it |
| 16:42.22 | brlcad | jwir3: say no to what? :) |
| 16:42.39 | JeffM2501 | SportChick, google |
| 16:42.43 | TimRiker | brlcad: so are you the GSoC admin? did you approve me? or don't I know enough about the project? :) |
| 16:42.49 | jwir3 | brlcad: oh, I thought you meant noone was answering your question if you should penalize them if they call it BZ Flag |
| 16:42.59 | brlcad | TimRiker: yes, and you are already approved :) |
| 16:43.06 | TimRiker | :) |
| 16:43.08 | jwir3 | hahaha - who mentors the mentors |
| 16:43.26 | brlcad | jwir3: ah, hehe -- it was just a joke, semi-inside |
| 16:43.34 | jwir3 | what's the saying... ipsos custodies a custodiet? |
| 16:43.38 | jwir3 | who will guard the guards |
| 16:43.54 | brlcad | menotume: you should turn off your filtering :) |
| 16:44.05 | brlcad | then you would get my beautiful moo replies :) |
| 16:44.11 | menotume | huh ? |
| 16:44.21 | brlcad | studid freenode filtering |
| 16:44.59 | menotume | hmm |
| 16:45.38 | menotume | 9s) |
| 16:46.17 | TimRiker | brlcad: so is there ranking do be done on proposals |
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| 16:50.15 | menotume | i prefer not to rank ones i don't know much about |
| 16:50.17 | Arsage | Devs, could anyone give me the game's "current status" concerning the dead reckoning project? After reading the papers, it looks as if a bit of this has already been implemented, maybe only on the client side... -- you want to transfer all of this to the server side? |
| 16:50.22 | menotume | but, i'll get to more today |
| 16:52.27 | JeffM2501 | the client always knows the current status |
| 16:52.33 | JeffM2501 | it's what it uses to draw |
| 16:52.41 | JeffM2501 | the server has a current state as well as of 2.1 |
| 16:52.47 | JeffM2501 | it does interpolations. |
| 16:53.34 | JeffM2501 | transfer may not be the correct word, as we'd still want to do client side DR for good graphical representation, but we'd want one to happen on the server too, to be an authortive state. |
| 16:53.54 | JeffM2501 | then the only clients that get out of sync with that state are very laggy people, and cheaters |
| 16:54.00 | JeffM2501 | the former we can correct, the latter we can kick. |
| 16:54.17 | brlcad | TimRiker: yes, the proposals are "evaluated" with a ranking, and if a mentor is interested they also select the "I am willing to mentor" button -- there are public and private comments that can be posted for discussion -- general evaluation criteria at http://my.bzflag.org/w/Google_Summer_of_Code_Evaluation |
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| 16:59.14 | Arsage2 | Are vectors currently timestamped? (as mentioned in the pdf's) |
| 16:59.28 | Arsage2 | silly mirc kicks me a lot =/ |
| 16:59.41 | JeffM2501 | in 2.1 the player updates are timestamped with the server time |
| 16:59.47 | JeffM2501 | and there is a ping message to sync them |
| 17:00.11 | JeffM2501 | so the states everywhere should be more accurate |
| 17:00.25 | JeffM2501 | tho the DR does simple linear interpolation, dosn't take gravity or anything into account. |
| 17:01.10 | Arsage2 | ok, and can you explain the "context-sensitive packet delivery culling" clause? |
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| 17:01.29 | Arsage2 | is that where people shouldn't receive DR's that don't really concern them significantly? |
| 17:01.29 | JeffM2501 | less updates for people further away,not vissible |
| 17:01.34 | Arsage2 | yeah, ok. |
| 17:01.39 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 17:01.53 | JeffM2501 | just to reduce the packet load and make for larger worlds kinda thing |
| 17:02.37 | Arsage2 | so for gameplay, you want as much of the DR processessing on the server as possible, implementing the scheduling algorithm as mentioned in the papers |
| 17:02.41 | Arsage2 | but some of the DR's will stay on the client for graphics |
| 17:02.51 | Arsage2 | and then you want to it implemented so that people don't see unnecessary DR's? |
| 17:03.10 | JeffM2501 | well our goal is to simply have a server state we can verify for cheats |
| 17:03.21 | JeffM2501 | i.e. make sure that motions are valid |
| 17:03.26 | JeffM2501 | not inifnate jumps |
| 17:03.31 | JeffM2501 | speeds are in range, etc.. |
| 17:03.49 | JeffM2501 | also so that we can do server side deteton of things ( like kills ) |
| 17:04.01 | JeffM2501 | but we'd also like to lower the bandwith usage out to clients |
| 17:04.08 | JeffM2501 | and one way would be to send less updates |
| 17:04.38 | Arsage2 | so.. sorry i'm taking a long bit of your time |
| 17:04.42 | JeffM2501 | we also need to not make the remote players look laggy or jerky inbetween updates on the clients |
| 17:04.46 | Arsage2 | what are the "main points" you'd like to see in a good proposal for this? |
| 17:04.50 | JeffM2501 | oh no biggie :) |
| 17:05.14 | JeffM2501 | accuracy on the server, and smooth animation on the client |
| 17:05.17 | JeffM2501 | those are the primary goals |
| 17:05.22 | JeffM2501 | lowering bandiwth is a secondary |
| 17:05.41 | JeffM2501 | right now the server knows little about the gamestate with regards to players and shots |
| 17:05.51 | JeffM2501 | and that limits what we can do for state verification ( cheating ). |
| 17:05.59 | Arsage2 | are those sent directly player to player? (is that why it knows little?) |
| 17:06.19 | JeffM2501 | the server started out as just a relay |
| 17:06.26 | JeffM2501 | it never had a full game client |
| 17:06.38 | JeffM2501 | we've only just started having it track things |
| 17:06.51 | *** join/#bzflag cosmol (n=dave@71.86.121.200) |
| 17:06.56 | JeffM2501 | bzflag started as a LAN game, where you could trust the clients |
| 17:07.04 | JeffM2501 | now over the internet, you can't trust them anymore |
| 17:07.20 | *** join/#bzflag Tippi (n=18989c70@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 17:07.30 | JeffM2501 | so the only thing we can trust is the server |
| 17:07.37 | JeffM2501 | and since the server dosn't know where stuff is...... |
| 17:07.52 | Arsage2 | so it's actually getting the DR vectors, it just isn't processing them to make sure they're consistent? |
| 17:08.08 | JeffM2501 | the serve now has the DR vectors |
| 17:08.14 | JeffM2501 | but it's not processing them correctly |
| 17:08.18 | JeffM2501 | not in the same way a client does |
| 17:08.28 | JeffM2501 | it also wasn't lag comping them till recently |
| 17:08.45 | Arsage2 | do you want to maintain the ping implementation of lag comping? |
| 17:08.52 | Arsage2 | or should that go somewhere? |
| 17:08.53 | JeffM2501 | don't need to |
| 17:08.59 | JeffM2501 | depends what else is better |
| 17:09.17 | JeffM2501 | this is an area we have little knowledge in |
| 17:11.09 | JeffM2501 | so it is a great place for a student to show research skills |
| 17:11.23 | JeffM2501 | it's much more then a "just get someone to type up the code" |
| 17:11.34 | Arsage2 | yeah, sadly i've had an incredibly busy 2-3 weeks, so my research would have to be done after the application process |
| 17:11.39 | Arsage2 | I hate how these things fell into time =/ |
| 17:11.50 | JeffM2501 | sadly that part of life |
| 17:12.00 | JeffM2501 | well make the best proposal you can :) |
| 17:12.19 | jwir3 | Arsage: yeah, when I do research, it always seems like I run low on time ;) |
| 17:12.19 | Arsage2 | Yeah, i'm gonna stab at it. Thanks a bunch |
| 17:12.24 | jwir3 | Arsage: doesn |
| 17:12.40 | Arsage2 | well, I was looking at SoC based on last years times |
| 17:12.43 | Arsage2 | so I thought I had until may |
| 17:12.44 | jwir3 | doesn't matter if you're a PhD or a 3rd grader, when research is done, in the end, you run out of time ;) |
| 17:12.46 | Arsage2 | and then it just... popped up |
| 17:12.56 | Arsage2 | right in the middle of exam season =P |
| 17:12.56 | jwir3 | oh that sucks |
| 17:14.31 | Arsage2 | I wish I could say like, I'd spend now until May researching the best possible implementation of this, and then may-august working on it |
| 17:14.38 | Arsage2 | but I realize what they want to see is the implementation already researched =/ |
| 17:16.12 | JeffM2501 | for this one, we don't have a prefered implementaion, but you'd have to show your research and defend your choice as the best one as you explained it to us. |
| 17:16.30 | JeffM2501 | we will question it just to make sure it's the correct thing to do |
| 17:16.43 | JeffM2501 | it's such an important part of gameplay we have to make sure it's correct for the future. |
| 17:21.59 | Links2004[Links] | hi i habe a problem how entcode a URL in c++ make " " to %20 etc |
| 17:22.30 | JeffM2501 | in a plugin? |
| 17:22.34 | JeffM2501 | or just in general? |
| 17:22.37 | Links2004[Links] | yes |
| 17:22.41 | Links2004[Links] | in a plugin |
| 17:22.56 | JeffM2501 | let me see if we expose our URL encode |
| 17:23.29 | JeffM2501 | 2.0 or 2.1? |
| 17:23.32 | Links2004[Links] | 2.0 |
| 17:25.58 | JeffM2501 | we didn't expose it |
| 17:26.08 | JeffM2501 | you can copy the code from textUtils into your plugin |
| 17:26.34 | Links2004[Links] | k i show |
| 17:29.23 | Links2004[Links] | how i see all "%20" codes ? |
| 17:29.33 | *** join/#bzflag Arsage (n=lee137@pool-71-98-111-132.ipslin.dsl-w.verizon.net) |
| 17:29.58 | JeffM2501 | google |
| 17:30.00 | JeffM2501 | I guess |
| 17:30.04 | JeffM2501 | or just copy the code from BZ |
| 17:30.06 | JeffM2501 | it's there |
| 17:30.20 | Links2004[Links] | k |
| 17:30.41 | JeffM2501 | I'll add it to the bzstring too as soon as I can get cvs to work. |
| 17:33.55 | CIA-17 | BZFlag: 03jeffm2501 07v2_0branch * 10bzflag/include/bzfsAPI.h: expose URL encode for ease of use. |
| 17:34.13 | CIA-17 | BZFlag: 03jeffm2501 07v2_0branch * 10bzflag/src/bzfs/bzfsAPI.cxx: expose URL encode for ease of use. |
| 17:36.23 | Links2004[Links] | howto use ? |
| 17:36.33 | CIA-17 | BZFlag: 03jeffm2501 * 10bzflag/include/bzfsAPI.h: expose URL encode for ease of use. |
| 17:36.52 | CIA-17 | BZFlag: 03jeffm2501 * 10bzflag/src/bzfs/bzfsAPI.cxx: expose URL encode for ease of use. |
| 17:36.57 | JeffM2501 | I added one to the bz_ApiString and a flat function one that just takes a char* |
| 17:37.07 | JeffM2501 | so it depends on what you have |
| 17:37.12 | Links2004[Links] | k |
| 17:37.14 | Links2004[Links] | i wait |
| 17:37.29 | JeffM2501 | you have to update your bzfs tho |
| 17:37.49 | JeffM2501 | or copy the code. |
| 17:38.01 | Links2004[Links] | k i update |
| 17:39.39 | *** join/#bzflag hobbsc (n=hobbsc@ip70-178-55-100.ks.ks.cox.net) |
| 17:40.19 | *** join/#bzflag bz29 (n=43be4c56@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 17:42.01 | *** join/#bzflag bz29 (n=43be4c56@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 17:44.07 | Links2004[Links] | i have a error at compile |
| 17:44.14 | JeffM2501 | and that is? |
| 17:44.39 | Links2004[Links] | mom i must copy from pc to laptop |
| 17:44.49 | JeffM2501 | I am not your mom |
| 17:44.55 | JeffM2501 | oh |
| 17:44.57 | JeffM2501 | I screwed up |
| 17:45.09 | JeffM2501 | stupid auto complete |
| 17:46.01 | CIA-17 | BZFlag: 03jeffm2501 07v2_0branch * 10bzflag/src/bzfs/bzfsAPI.cxx: make it actualy compile in 2.0.x |
| 17:46.18 | Links2004[Links] | mom = Moments |
| 17:47.47 | *** join/#bzflag Flash (n=jwmelto@unaffiliated/flash) |
| 17:48.35 | Links2004[Links] | http://pastebin.ca/410792 |
| 17:48.56 | JeffM2501 | update again |
| 17:49.00 | Links2004[Links] | k |
| 17:52.18 | ts | JeffM2501: mom also stands for one moment pls |
| 17:52.29 | ts | ;=) |
| 17:53.27 | *** part/#bzflag LongDon (n=LongDon@dialin-78125.ewetel.net) |
| 17:53.31 | ts | ah, I see it above now - I can't read obviously |
| 17:54.16 | *** join/#bzflag Tupone (n=Tupone@pdpc/supporter/active/Tupone) |
| 17:54.16 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v Tupone] by ChanServ |
| 17:58.07 | Links2004[Links] | i have compiu |
| 17:58.09 | Links2004[Links] | p |
| 17:58.09 | Links2004[Links] | o |
| 17:58.43 | Links2004[Links] | i compile the plugin and bzfs new but i become a "Links" but no "Links 2004" |
| 18:03.41 | Epyon | Google maps are fun :P |
| 18:03.43 | Epyon | With the SoC application I added my location with an estimated accurancy +- 4 meters :P |
| 18:04.41 | *** join/#bzflag deafboy3 (n=46be453b@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 18:05.08 | Manu | ants |
| 18:05.14 | Raziel | I added the location of my chair with an estimated accurancy of +- 4 meters xD |
| 18:06.49 | Epyon | Raziel, I *did* take into account the room I usualy sit in :P |
| 18:07.19 | Raziel | xDDD |
| 18:09.54 | *** join/#bzflag tupone_laptop (n=atupone@pdpc/supporter/active/Tupone) |
| 18:09.54 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v tupone_laptop] by ChanServ |
| 18:10.28 | Links2004[Links] | howto use bzApiString::urlEncode ? |
| 18:11.05 | ruskie | did you read the code? |
| 18:12.02 | Links2004[Links] | void bzApiString::urlEncode ( void ) .... |
| 18:13.45 | JeffM2501 | if you have a sting, you call that and it formats it |
| 18:13.55 | CBG | JeffM2501: will you be my mommy? |
| 18:14.37 | Links2004[Links] | text = bzApiString::urlEncode(text) ? |
| 18:15.14 | JeffM2501 | NO |
| 18:15.26 | JeffM2501 | you only use that if you HAVE a bzApiString::urlEncode' |
| 18:15.44 | JeffM2501 | you want the function one if you just have text as a char* or a std::string |
| 18:16.11 | JeffM2501 | the string one dosn't take any params, it works on the string data in the bzApiString object you have |
| 18:16.27 | Links2004[Links] | i have a std::string called text |
| 18:16.42 | JeffM2501 | a std::string is not a bzApiString |
| 18:16.50 | JeffM2501 | call the one that is a function |
| 18:16.53 | JeffM2501 | not the one that is a method |
| 18:18.04 | Links2004[Links] | bzApiString text; |
| 18:18.04 | Links2004[Links] | text = "lll"; |
| 18:18.04 | Links2004[Links] | bzApiString::urlEncode; |
| 18:18.04 | JeffM2501 | text.urlendoce(); |
| 18:18.04 | Links2004[Links] | a k |
| 18:18.04 | JeffM2501 | yeah, you don't know much about C++ do you? |
| 18:18.25 | Links2004[Links] | i know a bit bit |
| 18:18.32 | JeffM2501 | perhaps you should learn some more |
| 18:18.42 | JeffM2501 | calling a method is one of the basic features of C++ |
| 18:18.52 | JeffM2501 | you will enounter it a lot more. |
| 18:19.38 | Epyon | oops :P |
| 18:23.01 | Links2004[Links] | o no i have a error |
| 18:23.01 | Links2004[Links] | http://pastebin.ca/410837 |
| 18:23.27 | gl-whizz | hi |
| 18:23.33 | Links2004[Links] | hi |
| 18:23.34 | JeffM2501 | yeah you realy want to use the function |
| 18:23.37 | JeffM2501 | NOT the method |
| 18:23.41 | gl-whizz | are all of you into the SoC stuff? |
| 18:24.54 | JeffM2501 | APIStrings are only meant to be passed back to you |
| 18:24.55 | JeffM2501 | not allocated by youl |
| 18:24.55 | JeffM2501 | gl-whizz, some of us are yes, |
| 18:24.55 | ruskie | google should pay it's own taxes... not have other ppl pay it for them... |
| 18:24.55 | JeffM2501 | Links2004[Links], do you know what I mean by the function not the method? |
| 18:24.55 | JeffM2501 | ruskie, it's eployment, you pay takes on your wages. |
| 18:24.55 | Links2004[Links] | not realy |
| 18:24.58 | JeffM2501 | the bz_urlEncode |
| 18:24.59 | JeffM2501 | it takes a char* |
| 18:25.14 | ruskie | but then I'm not a fan of google... so I'll shut up... |
| 18:25.42 | *** join/#bzflag Jwir3 (n=scottj@tensor.cs.umn.edu) |
| 18:25.54 | gl-whizz | haha |
| 18:26.06 | Links2004[Links] | as a function ist easyer for me |
| 18:26.21 | JeffM2501 | that is why I kept saying you want to use that one |
| 18:26.26 | JeffM2501 | but you went off on the method for some reason |
| 18:26.46 | gl-whizz | :P:P |
| 18:31.41 | Links2004[Links] | i have a compile error too http://pastebin.ca/410846 |
| 18:31.58 | JeffM2501 | Links2004[Links], you need to use the updated bzfs.lib |
| 18:32.20 | Links2004[Links] | k i update cvs |
| 18:32.26 | JeffM2501 | no no |
| 18:32.36 | JeffM2501 | you need to make sure your plug-in is using the NEW lib you built |
| 18:32.54 | Links2004[Links] | k i compile bzfs new |
| 18:33.16 | JeffM2501 | AND move the lib |
| 18:33.21 | JeffM2501 | replacing the one your using now |
| 18:34.20 | Links2004[Links] | now he make it HURA JYPI |
| 18:37.40 | Links2004[Links] | thx now it works perfektly BIG BIG THX |
| 18:38.44 | *** join/#bzflag Soraya_ (i=4b443866@gateway/web/cgi-irc/zeebrothers.net/x-a6439dac1bea4a1d) |
| 18:38.56 | *** join/#bzflag Torghul (n=sade@88.244.141.31) |
| 18:43.23 | *** part/#bzflag Soraya_ (i=4b443866@about/essy/Saphira/Soraya) |
| 18:49.15 | *** join/#bzflag philbrick34 (n=ccd248c3@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 18:58.51 | brlcad | "5 hours, 5 minutes, 56 seconds to the SoC student deadline." |
| 18:59.25 | brad | how many applications so far? |
| 19:00.43 | brad | to see how many are interested in helping out bzflag ;) |
| 19:06.19 | JBdiGriz | We are trying to discover how many improvements we can make to bzflag over the summer. ;) |
| 19:13.52 | Links2004[Links] | why count bz_getCurrenrTime count backwarts in to - ? ? ? |
| 19:15.22 | Links2004[Links] | http://pastebin.ca/410912 |
| 19:19.12 | *** join/#bzflag Bz_Win (n=Kyle@CPE0016b6de59f3-CM000f9fac8236.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
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| 19:27.47 | *** join/#bzflag battousai1373 (n=blah@c-24-17-111-218.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) |
| 19:29.15 | JeffM2501 | Links2004[Links], what are you expecting it to give you? |
| 19:29.38 | JeffM2501 | and IIRC, it's not an integer, it's a floating point |
| 19:30.05 | JeffM2501 | yeah it's going to return a double |
| 19:30.23 | Links2004[Links] | how ? |
| 19:30.26 | JeffM2501 | you don't know basic C do you? |
| 19:30.35 | JeffM2501 | %f not %d |
| 19:30.40 | Links2004[Links] | k |
| 19:31.06 | battousai1373 | I know it's coming down to the wire, but I was looking for summer internship opportunities, came across GSoC, and am very interested in working with bzflag. Who can I speak to about a GSoC proposal? |
| 19:31.21 | JeffM2501 | have you seen our pages? |
| 19:31.22 | *** join/#bzflag quantumdot (n=Juan@about/essy/Charm/quantumdot) |
| 19:31.41 | JeffM2501 | brlcad, Erroneous , and myself are mentors |
| 19:32.09 | Links2004[Links] | when i use %f bzfs crash |
| 19:32.09 | battousai1373 | Yes, I realize I need to submit through Google, but I thought I should run it by the mods here first. |
| 19:32.40 | JeffM2501 | battousai1373, what idea do you want to propose? |
| 19:32.56 | JeffM2501 | Links2004[Links], it will want a pointer IIRC |
| 19:33.07 | JeffM2501 | on no, tha'ts scanf |
| 19:33.14 | JeffM2501 | use the debuger and see where it pukes. |
| 19:33.37 | battousai1373 | I actually have two ideas: 1.) Implement a memory management system 2.) Implement dead reckoning on the server. |
| 19:33.50 | JeffM2501 | what would a memory management system give us? |
| 19:34.01 | Erroneous | aside from slowness? :) |
| 19:34.09 | JeffM2501 | and more complex code |
| 19:34.24 | JeffM2501 | we aren't realy memory intensive IIRC |
| 19:35.13 | battousai1373 | It wouldn't be slow. With a minimal overhead in memory, it would improve speed performance considerably (depending upon how much dynamic memory allocation you perform). |
| 19:35.26 | JeffM2501 | litle |
| 19:35.37 | JeffM2501 | that sounds like a solution in need of a problem |
| 19:36.13 | Erroneous | how would it improve over the operating system's memory management? |
| 19:36.41 | battousai1373 | Well, yes, if you don't use much memory on the heap. I noticed you had considered customized memory management (zlib.h) but hadn't yet implemented it. |
| 19:36.57 | JeffM2501 | we use zlib for reading pngs |
| 19:36.58 | Erroneous | zlib is an external library |
| 19:37.02 | JeffM2501 | and compressing maps |
| 19:37.04 | Erroneous | http://www.zlib.org/ |
| 19:37.10 | JeffM2501 | data compression, not memory |
| 19:37.29 | Links2004[Links] | i have compiled the debug version of dll what now ? |
| 19:37.31 | JeffM2501 | it supports memory system for embeded use. |
| 19:37.34 | JeffM2501 | Links2004[Links], debug it |
| 19:37.43 | JeffM2501 | Links2004[Links], this isn't a place to teach you how to program. |
| 19:38.01 | Links2004[Links] | ääää kp |
| 19:38.13 | battousai1373 | ok. I haven't had very much time to look over your source, since I found GSoC only yesterday. |
| 19:38.45 | JeffM2501 | then it may be best for you to stick with solutions to presented problems, if time is your worry |
| 19:38.45 | philbrick34 | is there a page on making robots for bzflag? |
| 19:38.50 | JeffM2501 | philbrick34, no |
| 19:38.57 | JeffM2501 | we don't realy have a bot API, |
| 19:39.15 | elg | ... yet |
| 19:39.53 | JeffM2501 | indeed |
| 19:40.03 | JeffM2501 | well we have a 1/2 one on the server |
| 19:40.23 | brad | philbrick34: do you mean adding bots to a server? |
| 19:40.28 | battousai1373 | Erroneeous: It would improve over the operating system's memory manager considerably using a pool-based system. Essentially, rather than asking the OS for the memory each time you need it (expensive), you would ask for a larger block of it at once, and then manage it yourself. In practice, I've found it to be 3x-8x faster (compiler/OS dependent). |
| 19:41.04 | JeffM2501 | we mostly just do stuff with STL containers |
| 19:41.38 | battousai1373 | But, as you've said, you wouldn't have much use for it right now. |
| 19:41.41 | *** join/#bzflag Blue_Eyes (n=Blue@host12-218-dynamic.2-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 19:41.58 | JeffM2501 | it's a game, not photoshop ;) |
| 19:42.00 | battousai1373 | Well, I would still be interested in implementing dead reckoning on you server. |
| 19:42.13 | JeffM2501 | cool |
| 19:43.21 | battousai1373 | If you would like me to elaborate, I'd be glad to. I could just do that in my proposal if that's a project that's still open. |
| 19:43.40 | Erroneous | everything is "still open" :) |
| 19:43.42 | brlcad | battousai1373: a noble task, but alas not a problem that bz really has |
| 19:43.42 | JeffM2501 | our server dosn't have an accurate state of where all the players and shots are at any one time. |
| 19:43.51 | brlcad | (i.e. memory management) |
| 19:43.54 | *** join/#bzflag Arsage2 (n=lee137@pool-71-98-111-132.ipslin.dsl-w.verizon.net) |
| 19:44.16 | JeffM2501 | we need a way for the server to know where everything is so we can verify the state |
| 19:44.28 | JeffM2501 | and also to provide ways to do smart updates. |
| 19:44.30 | battousai1373 | brlcad: I understand. Not all large projects require it. |
| 19:44.30 | JeffM2501 | based on distance |
| 19:44.35 | *** join/#bzflag teatree (i=5841f913@gateway/web/cgi-irc/zeebrothers.net/x-6c2011a53e267f9d) |
| 19:44.41 | teatree | hello :) |
| 19:44.48 | blast007 | hi :) |
| 19:44.53 | brlcad | yeah, server-side state management would be worlds more immediately valuable, whether it's DR or even a testing environment |
| 19:44.54 | teatree | long time ;D |
| 19:45.02 | brlcad | howdy teatree |
| 19:45.09 | teatree | hey |
| 19:45.32 | battousai1373 | yeah, I was reading that, and that's something that's technically feasible for me, as well as a point of interest. |
| 19:45.45 | teatree | has ducati died out? |
| 19:46.32 | battousai1373 | Is the game utilizing cubic splines for predictive synch right now or did you just want a simpler form of dead reckoning? |
| 19:46.56 | JeffM2501 | it's very simple |
| 19:47.02 | JeffM2501 | linear |
| 19:47.06 | battousai1373 | oh ok |
| 19:47.13 | JeffM2501 | pos *= dt * vec :) |
| 19:47.16 | Erroneous | we do linear dr on the client, iirc. the big thing we'd like is for it to be managed by the server. |
| 19:47.19 | JeffM2501 | += |
| 19:47.20 | Guu` | No idea, JeffM2501. |
| 19:47.29 | JeffM2501 | shuddap gu |
| 19:47.37 | teatree | JeffM2501: ! |
| 19:47.48 | Erroneous | right now our server has no idea where any of the tanks are |
| 19:47.51 | Erroneous | or shots |
| 19:47.53 | Erroneous | or anything |
| 19:47.59 | purple_cow | brlcad: I wasn't thinking of blogs so much as a status report medium, but more of a place to show things off and create a positive feedback mechanism |
| 19:48.11 | Erroneous | we'd ultimately like it to hold the authoritative state, to prevent/suppress cheating |
| 19:48.25 | blast007 | well, it know where the tanks are to a degree |
| 19:48.25 | purple_cow | get something working? have a cool screenshot? figure something out? have a particularly elegant snippet of code you want to show? blog! |
| 19:48.30 | JeffM2501 | well 2.1 has a slightly better idea of where the tanks are |
| 19:48.32 | battousai1373 | Okay, so I could prioritize moving the code over to server-side, and then work on implementing predictive synch using cubic splines. |
| 19:48.34 | JeffM2501 | but it's not correct |
| 19:48.51 | Erroneous | battousai1373: yeah, that sounds good |
| 19:48.51 | JeffM2501 | battousai1373, well you'd not want to move, as the clients still have to do there own DR for drawing. |
| 19:49.06 | JeffM2501 | the clients keep a state, the server keeps a state |
| 19:49.10 | battousai1373 | yeah |
| 19:49.13 | teatree | which irc programm ist good for macs? |
| 19:49.13 | JeffM2501 | when there is a discrepancy, the server wins :) |
| 19:49.19 | JeffM2501 | xchat |
| 19:49.28 | elg | irssi :) |
| 19:49.32 | battousai1373 | You just want the server to hold the authority. I understand. |
| 19:49.34 | JeffM2501 | xchat aqua is solid tho not as flashy |
| 19:49.40 | blast007 | yay irssi ;) |
| 19:49.40 | JeffM2501 | battousai1373, that's the start yes |
| 19:49.43 | purple_cow | if we can get it to be a very active place of people doing cool things, it might even draw in potential developers who are just attracted by a cool developer community |
| 19:49.43 | teatree | k thanks |
| 19:49.50 | teatree | im off guys take care |
| 19:49.55 | *** join/#bzflag amcnabb (n=amcnabb@c-71-195-212-252.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) |
| 19:49.58 | ryanakca | hmm... who pinged? |
| 19:50.12 | JeffM2501 | after we have that , we can then do some more stuff on the server, stop more cheats, send out fewer updates for distant players, etc.. |
| 19:50.40 | battousai1373 | Okay, that sounds good to me. |
| 19:51.02 | JeffM2501 | we don't have a lot of experience in the area, so there would be research |
| 19:51.13 | JeffM2501 | and lots of explaining to us why X method is better then Y, etc.. |
| 19:51.34 | JeffM2501 | we just know our current stuff sucks |
| 19:51.41 | JeffM2501 | and the features we want to have in the end |
| 19:51.43 | Erroneous | none of that (cheat checking, update quelling, etc) is necessary for the soc project...just getting authoritative, consistent, and ideally lag-compensated state is sufficient. |
| 19:51.56 | JeffM2501 | yeah, geting us the facility to do more later |
| 19:52.06 | battousai1373 | Ironically enough, I'm currently soloing a 2D networked tank game for my networking class at school, and this is something I'll need to have done to some extent within the next 4 weeks. |
| 19:52.21 | JeffM2501 | heh |
| 19:52.30 | battousai1373 | Of course, your game is on a much larger scale, but I will have some experience going into this. |
| 19:54.06 | battousai1373 | Okay, that sounds really good. The proposal is due by 5:00 PST today, correct? |
| 19:54.28 | JeffM2501 | yes |
| 19:54.35 | JeffM2501 | I'm not so sure our scale is that big |
| 19:54.44 | JeffM2501 | worlds are small and simple ( stuff on a plane ) |
| 19:54.56 | a_temp_dist | snakes? |
| 19:55.26 | battousai1373 | Well, mine only needs to support 4-8 players on a LAN with simulated internet connections. My host is my server. |
| 19:55.26 | Erroneous | worlds are not just on a plane, JeffM2501 :P |
| 19:55.31 | JeffM2501 | they rest on one :) |
| 19:55.32 | Erroneous | we do have stuff in the air too |
| 19:55.35 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 19:55.45 | JeffM2501 | but still I mean it's not like a complex portal system |
| 19:55.50 | Erroneous | yeah |
| 19:55.53 | JeffM2501 | stuff in space, lets say that :) |
| 19:56.01 | Erroneous | I get your meaning, just wanted to be contrary :) |
| 19:56.06 | JeffM2501 | stuff in a bounded paralelapipid |
| 19:56.58 | battousai1373 | ok, then. I'm gonna get started on that proposal. I hope to work with you guys soon. Take care. |
| 19:57.02 | Erroneous | battousai1373: those are typical player numbers for our servers too, actually, though there are higher-load servers around (up to 40 or so) |
| 19:57.24 | battousai1373 | oh ok |
| 19:57.34 | JeffM2501 | yeah we ain't no MMO :) |
| 19:57.39 | Erroneous | but we do have to deal with real internet (lots of lag/reliability issues) |
| 19:58.16 | Links2004[Links] | the function make a loop forever |
| 19:58.32 | JeffM2501 | Links2004[Links], then don't do that |
| 19:58.37 | Erroneous | heh |
| 19:58.39 | Links2004[Links] | how ? |
| 19:58.42 | battousai1373 | haha yeah. I guess I'm just saying it needs to work over an actual internet connection. |
| 19:58.49 | JeffM2501 | is there any reason we arn't marking bad applications as ineligible? |
| 20:00.48 | purple_cow | I think ineligible is meant for spam |
| 20:00.54 | purple_cow | just give it a negative rating |
| 20:00.58 | JeffM2501 | I think the ants one is spam ;) |
| 20:01.30 | purple_cow | that one is a bit odd |
| 20:01.30 | Links2004[Links] | http://pastebin.ca/410994 |
| 20:01.48 | JeffM2501 | I'm guessing he just nailed every project with it. |
| 20:02.07 | JeffM2501 | Links2004[Links], what event are you doing that in? |
| 20:02.30 | Links2004[Links] | if(eventData->eventType == bz_ePlayerPartEvent) |
| 20:02.45 | JeffM2501 | and you registered it to handle that event? |
| 20:03.17 | JeffM2501 | and what is message? |
| 20:03.20 | JeffM2501 | a global? |
| 20:03.25 | Links2004[Links] | yes bz_registerEvent(bz_ePlayerPartEvent,&handler); |
| 20:03.44 | Links2004[Links] | yes global |
| 20:03.52 | JeffM2501 | well slap some breakpoints in the debuger and step thru your code |
| 20:04.02 | JeffM2501 | see why your geting so many calls |
| 20:04.33 | JeffM2501 | and why are you calling tor? |
| 20:04.57 | Links2004[Links] | ? the function is called tor |
| 20:05.09 | Links2004[Links] | but i have modif it |
| 20:05.20 | JeffM2501 | I see |
| 20:05.41 | JeffM2501 | well I don't cus you show no code :) |
| 20:05.53 | JeffM2501 | but yeah, sounds like time for debugin |
| 20:07.16 | Links2004[Links] | http://pastebin.ca/411002 |
| 20:07.42 | JeffM2501 | so debug it |
| 20:07.50 | JeffM2501 | we can't do your work for you |
| 20:12.38 | *** join/#bzflag |zongo| (n=zongo@ext-32-51.mobile.unibas.ch) |
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| 20:17.35 | Links2004[Links] | lol the bug is in bz_sendTextMessage(BZ_SERVER,BZ_ALLUSERS,message.c_str()); |
| 20:19.23 | JeffM2501 | what "bug" is that? |
| 20:19.49 | Links2004[Links] | loop then crash |
| 20:19.57 | JeffM2501 | where does it crash? |
| 20:20.02 | Links2004[Links] | bz_sendTextMessage(BZ_SERVER,BZ_ALLUSERS,message.c_str()); |
| 20:20.15 | JeffM2501 | what part of THAT function crashes is what I'm asking |
| 20:20.24 | JeffM2501 | that function has no loop |
| 20:20.26 | Links2004[Links] | wehn i make //bz_sendTextMessage(BZ_SERVER,BZ_ALLUSERS,message.c_str()); then all work |
| 20:21.03 | JeffM2501 | that dosn't solve anything |
| 20:21.50 | Links2004[Links] | what is to do ? |
| 20:21.57 | JeffM2501 | debug into bz |
| 20:22.01 | JeffM2501 | see what is crashing |
| 20:22.02 | JeffM2501 | and why |
| 20:22.07 | Links2004[Links] | kp |
| 20:22.18 | JeffM2501 | it jsut calls the core sendMessage function |
| 20:22.22 | JeffM2501 | and that calls broadcast |
| 20:22.38 | JeffM2501 | and that is called by a lot of code. |
| 20:23.36 | Links2004[Links] | then i don't us the bz_sendTextMessage at this pos. |
| 20:23.46 | JeffM2501 | you don't get it |
| 20:23.49 | JeffM2501 | but that's fine |
| 20:23.54 | JeffM2501 | it's your project |
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| 20:33.51 | daxxar | TimRiker: Hi, I see you commented on my application. Would you prefer me to update my application with reflections on your comment, hand them to you via IRC or email, or just leave it be? :-) |
| 20:34.36 | JeffM2501 | it's best to put it in your application |
| 20:34.38 | Erroneous | daxxar: ideally, answer in a comment on your application itself |
| 20:34.38 | JeffM2501 | so all can see |
| 20:34.44 | Erroneous | then all the mentors can read the answers |
| 20:34.54 | Erroneous | and apparently JeffM2501 types faster than I do |
| 20:34.57 | daxxar | Okay, so leave the application as it is? |
| 20:35.31 | JeffM2501 | or update it and comment if you can |
| 20:35.34 | Erroneous | it's ok to clarify something in the application itself, just make a note of what you changed and when |
| 20:35.49 | Erroneous | well when is automatic |
| 20:35.58 | Erroneous | so make a note of what you changed :) |
| 20:36.11 | Erroneous | they really ought to do revision tracking, that'd be sweet |
| 20:36.20 | JeffM2501 | they need a lot of things |
| 20:36.25 | Erroneous | true |
| 20:40.08 | elg | I just updated my application after an enlightening discussion with amcnabb |
| 20:40.09 | JeffM2501 | cool |
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| 20:40.20 | brlcad | elg: which proposal? |
| 20:40.21 | JeffM2501 | whos' he? |
| 20:40.30 | elg | headless AI |
| 20:40.37 | brlcad | heh, need to be more specific :) |
| 20:40.47 | elg | Hans Fugal, Headless Client Artificial Intelligence Agent Framework |
| 20:40.54 | brlcad | ah, hans k |
| 20:41.42 | elg | amcnabb is involved with BZRC http://bzrc.cs.byu.edu/ |
| 20:42.25 | brlcad | JeffM2501: he's who added bzrobots |
| 20:42.31 | JeffM2501 | ahh ok |
| 20:42.37 | JeffM2501 | the robot guy |
| 20:43.13 | brlcad | Tim's been busy.. |
| 20:43.23 | JeffM2501 | called it |
| 20:45.54 | daxxar | Err, d-oh. Adding a comment disallowed me from updating the detailed desc. |
| 20:45.57 | daxxar | Oh well. :) |
| 20:46.25 | daxxar | As long as people read the comments I've posted too, it should all be clear. ;) |
| 20:46.36 | elg | at least we can post comments this year as students |
| 20:46.44 | elg | that's new this year |
| 20:48.13 | JeffM2501 | daxxar, dude would a newline kill ya in your about me file? ;) |
| 20:50.46 | daxxar | Meep, it looked better with GSoC's automatic newline wrapping. ;-) |
| 20:50.54 | daxxar | I just copypasted it to an external file. |
| 20:51.47 | daxxar | Should be a bit better now. :-) |
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| 20:53.27 | JeffM2501 | still has some wide lines but not so bad |
| 20:53.28 | JeffM2501 | thanks |
| 20:54.02 | daxxar | I could wrap it at ~80 characters, if that'd be more visually pleasing. The document itself isn't that long, though. :-) |
| 20:54.23 | Jwir3 | hehe |
| 20:56.16 | JeffM2501 | it's better |
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| 21:04.11 | donny_baker | wow, GSoC page on wiki has twice as many views as the Main Page |
| 21:04.22 | JeffM2501 | it's linked from more places |
| 21:04.38 | purple_cow | JeffM2501: we should maybe consider two editor projects ;) |
| 21:04.39 | JeffM2501 | I have ranked more then one positivly |
| 21:04.44 | donny_baker | yeah, but definately shows lots of interest |
| 21:05.02 | JeffM2501 | I am about to rank one rather negitivily |
| 21:05.32 | JeffM2501 | the monkey engine thing == not so good.... |
| 21:05.36 | purple_cow | the soc site is so slow |
| 21:05.48 | Erroneous | purple_cow: probably rather heavily loaded at the moment |
| 21:05.56 | purple_cow | it's been slow for two weeks |
| 21:05.58 | daxxar | Are there many, JeffM2501? |
| 21:05.59 | purple_cow | and this is *google* |
| 21:06.03 | Erroneous | good points both |
| 21:06.10 | JeffM2501 | many what daxxar ? |
| 21:06.14 | daxxar | Editor proposals. : |
| 21:06.15 | daxxar | :) |
| 21:06.16 | Erroneous | daxxar: yes, there are |
| 21:06.18 | JeffM2501 | under 10 |
| 21:06.20 | Erroneous | some better than others |
| 21:06.44 | JeffM2501 | the JRE better not make me restart |
| 21:06.48 | JeffM2501 | or I'll be pissed |
| 21:07.02 | donny_baker | usually doesn't ;) |
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| 21:07.45 | purple_cow | of course it'll make you restart |
| 21:07.47 | purple_cow | you're running windows |
| 21:08.03 | JeffM2501 | the docs for the monkey thing are non existant it seems |
| 21:08.23 | JeffM2501 | it's "install" is a zip file with a batfile that says "runme" |
| 21:08.48 | purple_cow | haha |
| 21:09.02 | donny_baker | hehe, can we say "virus" :) |
| 21:09.20 | JeffM2501 | looks to just fire off java |
| 21:09.37 | JeffM2501 | well java won't install |
| 21:09.57 | JeffM2501 | oh, looks like it will |
| 21:10.01 | JeffM2501 | even tho it says it failed |
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| 21:12.46 | JeffM2501 | purple_cow, there were 2 editors so far that I put the "i would mentor" on |
| 21:16.16 | *** part/#bzflag donny_baker (n=donny_ba@about/essy/vvvvv/donnybaker) |
| 21:17.37 | Erroneous | heh, http://my.bzflag.org/wiki/index.php?title=Google_Summer_of_Code&curid=296&diff=1580&oldid=1553&rcid=1574 |
| 21:18.03 | JeffM2501 | he put that in there? |
| 21:18.05 | JeffM2501 | WOW |
| 21:18.22 | JeffM2501 | that is just somone who realy dosn't get what we are |
| 21:19.18 | TimRiker | don't we need ants running around rather naturally in bzflag? |
| 21:19.38 | elg | running around and carrying flags |
| 21:19.42 | elg | and cows to shoot, please |
| 21:19.53 | TimRiker | my question is: will tread marks have little red dots in them for every squished ant? |
| 21:20.24 | TimRiker | oh, and will every client see the same ants in the same positions? |
| 21:20.37 | elg | quantum ants |
| 21:23.13 | JeffM2501 | man is that moneky world thing a crud editor |
| 21:23.50 | JeffM2501 | I'd be like making an editor off a bad version of blender. |
| 21:25.00 | brlcad | ant trails would be awesome |
| 21:25.18 | ts | Noo, the poor ants |
| 21:25.19 | brlcad | little tiny red pixels fluttering in a line |
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| 21:26.13 | TimRiker | daxxar: replied on the app. |
| 21:26.45 | TimRiker | brlcad: well, not much fluttering happening after getting hit by a tank. |
| 21:26.53 | brlcad | :) |
| 21:27.04 | brlcad | there's a fair bit of spacing between treads |
| 21:27.22 | elg | genetically engineered super ants could survive |
| 21:28.17 | ts | Ants would be like people on the map. |
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| 21:29.15 | ruskie | I'd like to see ppl on the map with bazookas and smart missiles etc... :) |
| 21:29.28 | ruskie | shooting at tanks :) |
| 21:29.52 | tupone_laptop | TimRiker, I started changing the protocol to allow packet forwarding and saving bandwidth for bots and player. Did it in 2.1 . Don't remember really the status, cause I took "some rest". IIRC is mostly done |
| 21:30.13 | ts | and then? the kids (our players) drive with their tank over the heads of the people in the map? |
| 21:30.14 | tupone_laptop | Saying that after reading comments on gsoc |
| 21:30.42 | ruskie | a person would get manuverability over the tank but would be only be able to fire a single shot and have a medium reload time |
| 21:30.57 | daxxar | TimRiker: Ah, thank you. I'll take a look at it now. |
| 21:30.57 | JeffM2501 | tupone_laptop, as it sits now, somone tried to fix the issues with it, and it's way wicked busted. |
| 21:31.10 | JeffM2501 | bots don't show graphicaly |
| 21:31.16 | daxxar | For some reason my SSH-sessions disliked me killing NAT on the router. ;-) |
| 21:31.36 | ts | ruskie: Part of the game concept is that we don't kill people, only tanks remotly driven. |
| 21:32.05 | ruskie | ow |
| 21:32.29 | ruskie | wasn't aware of that part... |
| 21:32.36 | JeffM2501 | ts, where'd you get that from? |
| 21:32.56 | ts | JeffM2501: That was my impression during playing all the years |
| 21:32.57 | JeffM2501 | the "game concept" is/was "battlezone is fun" |
| 21:33.10 | JeffM2501 | then that's your concept ;) |
| 21:33.41 | ts | What would parents say if they see their kids driving a tank than kills people? |
| 21:34.15 | battousai1373 | Hi, I spoke to you guys earlier about implementing server-side dead reckoning. I'm writing up my proposal, and I have a question: Since your server doesn't use dead reckoning, is it safe to assume that it uses some form of "pop to update"? |
| 21:34.35 | JeffM2501 | what do you mean? |
| 21:34.42 | JeffM2501 | if there is a discrepancy? |
| 21:34.53 | purple_cow | ts: you can call it "real" or not, but it's still just bits on a computer screen |
| 21:35.14 | battousai1373 | I mean when it's determining the game state, yes. |
| 21:35.14 | JeffM2501 | ts, the same thing when they let the kids watch the news. |
| 21:35.29 | JeffM2501 | battousai1373, I'd think you'd have to |
| 21:35.37 | JeffM2501 | but other ideas can be proposed. |
| 21:36.26 | JeffM2501 | ts, we do make that gooey crunchy noise when you run somone over with SR ;) |
| 21:36.44 | JeffM2501 | that ain't metal on metal there |
| 21:36.56 | ts | yeah |
| 21:37.37 | ts | doesn't sound like driving over some people (not that I would have heard that before) |
| 21:37.43 | TimRiker | tupone_laptop: well, 2.1 is playable, so at least it's not broken. :) |
| 21:37.51 | battousai1373 | I mean, currently, it's receiving an update from the client and updating the client's position in its model, but since dead reckoning needs to be implemented, can I assume that it doesn't extrapolate the client's position based on position, orientation, velocity, nearby obstacles, etc.? |
| 21:39.08 | purple_cow | what the heck is this englishName / frenchName thing? |
| 21:39.13 | purple_cow | it looks like we don't even use frenchName |
| 21:39.25 | purple_cow | shouldn't we just be displaying the language name in that language? |
| 21:39.29 | TimRiker | probably want to change the initial handshake to be HTTPish at this point. If one of the BZFS web interfaces is approved that's the direction I'd like to see it go. |
| 21:39.55 | battousai1373 | In other words, right now, the server is just "popping off" the client's status update and simply replacing the known position of the client with the updated one, correct? |
| 21:40.01 | TimRiker | somthing like "GET /status HTTP/1.0"\n\n would get what the current stats code gets. |
| 21:40.37 | brlcad | TimRiker: we talked about that just a few days ago (and several times over the year) .. there's merit to separating out inquiry to a different port for management/firewall/routing purposes |
| 21:40.50 | brlcad | so you wouldn't necessarily need to combine the two |
| 21:40.53 | Erroneous | TimRiker: one of the proposals for that was more along the lines of a launcher/wrapper than a true integrated webserver. They both have merit. |
| 21:40.55 | TimRiker | and there would be a /admin or similar that allows display/set of configdb items, and other config options as well as restarting the server with those new options and perhaps saving them to disk someplace. |
| 21:41.32 | JeffM2501 | battousai1373, yeah you just jump to the new position |
| 21:41.35 | TimRiker | I'd much prefer combining two and using a tie in to global authentication to determine what you can do/see over http. |
| 21:41.36 | JeffM2501 | to be as accurate as possible |
| 21:41.55 | battousai1373 | ok, that's what I thought. |
| 21:41.57 | JeffM2501 | as time increases away from the update, the less accuracy you have |
| 21:42.02 | Erroneous | we can use global auth even from a strictly separate process, just like we can use it from an external website |
| 21:42.22 | Erroneous | just need to call the secure auth page on my.bzflag.org, have them sign in there, and get referred back |
| 21:42.41 | battousai1373 | yeah, because of latency issues, dropped packets, and such...Okay, just clarifying so I don't assume too much in my proposal. |
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| 21:42.59 | JeffM2501 | yeah' that's all we do now |
| 21:43.05 | battousai1373 | ok |
| 21:43.07 | battousai1373 | thanks |
| 21:43.11 | TimRiker | Erroneous: true. and since it's that easy, using one port means that there is no further firewall setup required. |
| 21:43.30 | TimRiker | if you can admin from a client, you can admin from a browser and vis versa. |
| 21:43.43 | Erroneous | that (->no further firewall setup) is the one bonus I see to integrating them |
| 21:44.34 | Erroneous | on the other hand, using a launcher/wrapper lets you do initial server configuration, map changes, etc remotely, which you wouldn't be able to do with an integrated webserver without major architectural changes |
| 21:45.30 | TimRiker | the memory footprint on the serverside should be minimal. Now... some folks may do a separate process that provides and update web ui and then turns around and uses the simple web interface in the server. that's fine by me. the http commands should be predictable and published. |
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| 21:46.19 | TimRiker | but since the server needs _some_ interface for runtime config, two choices appear: |
| 21:46.56 | TimRiker | 1) use only the existing client admin interface. the external server process shows up as a client (briefly) |
| 21:47.17 | TimRiker | or 2) implement a simple http command interface on the server and any browser works. |
| 21:47.26 | TimRiker | I prefer 2, but I can see the merit in 1. |
| 21:50.14 | Erroneous | hm, not sure what you're suggesting with 1. or if there's a 3... we do have a plugin API which allows runtime management. |
| 21:51.19 | TimRiker | most all command line options translate to bzdb options. those that don't probably should if possible. :) some things probably don't want to be settable like the listening port. |
| 21:51.39 | TimRiker | Erroneous: how would the external process interface with the server or plugin? |
| 21:52.05 | JeffM2501 | Windows MEssages!!! |
| 21:52.58 | TimRiker | yeah that's it. DDE |
| 21:53.08 | JeffM2501 | totaly |
| 21:53.12 | Erroneous | eww |
| 21:53.23 | TimRiker | perhaps a secure IPX channel? |
| 21:53.27 | Erroneous | TimRiker: yeah, I got you now. you want the IPC to be done with http? |
| 21:54.24 | TimRiker | Erroneous: right. and if the server will handle HTTP like connect scrings the browser, client and wrapper could all use it. |
| 21:54.36 | Erroneous | so that it could be used (in a limited way) independent of the external process if you chose not to use it? |
| 21:54.47 | Erroneous | gotch |
| 21:54.49 | Erroneous | gotcha |
| 21:55.07 | TimRiker | should be easy to map the http path to a plugin. so there is like /plugin/foo to call the "whatever" method of a plugin. then we get a CGI like plugin interface. |
| 21:55.28 | Erroneous | I'd be cool with that :) would need a bit more work on the server side. |
| 21:55.52 | TimRiker | yeah, but not a lot. and it would be very flexible once implemented. |
| 21:57.23 | TimRiker | Some things should move to HTTP style like specifying the server and client versions. normal clients should send that in the header. |
| 21:57.36 | *** join/#bzflag TD-Linux (n=TD-Linux@about/essy/indecisive/TD-Linux) |
| 21:57.50 | TimRiker | we might even use an HTTP CONNECT to startup the game process thereby added (lame) proxy support to the client. |
| 21:58.03 | Erroneous | no real proxy support, we require udp... |
| 21:58.11 | JeffM2501 | so why even bother? |
| 21:58.12 | TimRiker | I say lame cause playing over tcp only sucks. and adding a proxy only makes it suck more. |
| 21:58.22 | TimRiker | we do NOT require udp. |
| 21:58.30 | JeffM2501 | but we should |
| 21:58.39 | Erroneous | TimRiker: I thought that changed... |
| 21:58.42 | TimRiker | a server admin MAY require udp if he/she chooses. |
| 21:59.06 | TimRiker | tcp only for game play sucks. but for bzadmin it's fine. |
| 21:59.51 | JeffM2501 | sane defaults are good defaults |
| 22:00.20 | TimRiker | any resonable admin should add that option. I'd be fine with a --allowtcponly option and the default being require udp. |
| 22:00.49 | Erroneous | heh, --options now? :) |
| 22:00.51 | JeffM2501 | heh, reasonable admin. |
| 22:00.54 | TimRiker | hehe |
| 22:01.00 | JeffM2501 | you need to get out there more ;) |
| 22:01.30 | TimRiker | heh. that was the point. reasonable admin, -- and defaults. cracks me up. |
| 22:01.43 | TD-Linux | reasonable admins are even more scarce than sane ones |
| 22:02.16 | TimRiker | I'd be fine with a complete re-work of the command line options to bring remote bzadmin/web/config/commandline into sync. |
| 22:02.31 | daxxar | TimRiker: I replied to your comment. :-) |
| 22:02.36 | Erroneous | kill off all the stuff that can be done with -set too |
| 22:02.38 | TimRiker | there's a gsoc project for you. quick, before the time runs out! :) |
| 22:02.45 | Erroneous | and get rid of the silly +options |
| 22:03.40 | purple_cow | can I use getopt? |
| 22:03.44 | TimRiker | a getopts like interface. everything would have -- versions, and sort options just map to those. then the long options are what you do over bzadmin/web/config/etc |
| 22:04.09 | TimRiker | purple_cow: sure. just send a patch to bill and get it in windows. Make sure it's GPLed. |
| 22:04.15 | Erroneous | heh |
| 22:04.35 | brlcad | i can provide a getopt impl easy enough |
| 22:04.55 | purple_cow | see? brlcad is easy |
| 22:05.01 | purple_cow | *ahem* |
| 22:05.01 | TimRiker | brlcad: if we can LGPL it, then cool. go for it. |
| 22:05.02 | Erroneous | brlcad is easy? |
| 22:05.07 | brlcad | Erroneous: very :) |
| 22:05.11 | brlcad | TimRiker: already LGPL |
| 22:05.18 | TimRiker | sweet. patches welcome. |
| 22:05.19 | Erroneous | there ya go |
| 22:05.52 | daxxar | Would getopt have very much platform-dependant code? |
| 22:05.57 | purple_cow | none |
| 22:06.01 | daxxar | I thought getopt mostly dealt with parsing strings ;-P |
| 22:06.13 | daxxar | Unless you want to have -h and /? based on *nix and win32, respectively, :-P |
| 22:06.19 | Erroneous | daxxar: most platforms provide getopt, windows does not |
| 22:06.32 | TimRiker | does that make long opts // under win* ? |
| 22:06.40 | daxxar | Erroneous: Ah, okay. :) |
| 22:06.41 | purple_cow | hehe |
| 22:06.50 | brlcad | I don't have an impl of getopt_long .. but shouldn't be too hard to write |
| 22:06.58 | TimRiker | c:\bzflag\bzfs.exe //help |
| 22:07.01 | Erroneous | heh |
| 22:07.30 | Arsage | are the options that would be changed in an Integrated BZFS web interface pretty much similar to the ones that could be changed during runtime from BZFS Configuration Builder? |
| 22:08.04 | TimRiker | Arsage: runtime != BZFS Configuration Builder no? |
| 22:08.33 | TimRiker | i thought BZFS Configuration Builder built config files that would be loaded when bzfs starts. |
| 22:08.34 | Arsage | well, they're not the same, but are the options that would be changed (in the game) both from that list? |
| 22:08.39 | brlcad | two hours till submission deadline |
| 22:09.13 | daxxar | Hm, will commenting etc. be available after submission deadline? |
| 22:09.16 | TimRiker | Arsage: the options that would be changed in-game are at least all those that can currently be set in-game via bzflag or bzadmin. |
| 22:10.09 | brlcad | daxxar: yes |
| 22:10.19 | Erroneous | Arsage: there are commandline/config builder options which can later be changed from bzdb, and there are some which cannot. there are additional options which can only be changed from bzdb, not from the commandline/config builder. a web interface would need to also have the ability to list and manage players, and ideally, groups, and manage statistics and so on. |
| 22:10.25 | TimRiker | and it would be nice IMHO to allow setting all command line options with a "restart the server with those options" feature. and perhaps a "save these options to a new config file" too. |
| 22:10.31 | daxxar | Okay |
| 22:11.01 | Erroneous | TimRiker: yeah, that's one of the things I liked about the application from the guy who proposed the wrapper-like solution |
| 22:11.18 | TimRiker | Erroneous: most any bzdb option can be "set" in a conf file, though the builder may not offer to set them. |
| 22:11.20 | brlcad | bzfs config file and resources would be nice |
| 22:11.39 | brlcad | akin to the client |
| 22:11.54 | TimRiker | Erroneous: but that should be available from a bzadmin session too. just kick all players and loop with the new options. |
| 22:12.39 | TimRiker | implementing it _only_ in wrapper is the more confusing, less straight forward, way to go. course it is easier to code up. |
| 22:12.43 | Erroneous | yeah, but we don't really have the ability to do that now, TimRiker...resetting options and flushing the world db, with all that implies, is a bit of a messy operation that would take quite a bit of time to straighten out |
| 22:12.53 | brlcad | rather trivial mod to store the initial ServerCmdOptions settings somewhere for reinvocation |
| 22:13.03 | brlcad | or the exact command line options even |
| 22:13.45 | brlcad | the most work would be writing the execl-style code for windows |
| 22:14.39 | Links2004[Links] | so my new stats bot is online :) at all links server :) |
| 22:15.13 | TimRiker | brlcad: I'd hook in closer and re-loop, not really re-exec. |
| 22:15.31 | TimRiker | just clear things are re-enter main() effectively. |
| 22:15.56 | Erroneous | we'll leak a lot if we do that now |
| 22:16.08 | brlcad | hmm.. I have less faith in the "just clear things" part |
| 22:16.12 | Erroneous | like I said, would require considerable cleanup |
| 22:16.15 | TimRiker | so perhaps google will pay you to find and fix the leaks. :) |
| 22:16.24 | brlcad | execl would clear things out completely |
| 22:16.49 | TimRiker | true, but it's might hang your tcp listen code now and then on different OSes. |
| 22:17.38 | Erroneous | why? should be able to hang up before execing the new instance... |
| 22:17.42 | TimRiker | does not matter much to me though. which ever way works. :) |
| 22:19.00 | TimRiker | Erroneous: assuming all clients do a clean tcp shutdown and that your OS supports rapid re-open of listening ports, sure. that's the way thing should always work. try that on windows after unplugging a client so it can't shutdown the pipe. |
| 22:21.00 | Erroneous | TimRiker: wait for WSAShutdown to return before re-execing, and all should be ok. might take a few seconds longer, but that's not a big deal if we're not doing it often. |
| 22:21.00 | TimRiker | now, no reasonable admins run on windows. see previous comment from JeffM2501 on our abundance of reasonable admins. |
| 22:21.00 | Erroneous | heh :) |
| 22:21.09 | Erroneous | last time I checked there actually weren't that many public servers running on windows. likely because of the wonderful EAGAIN problems |
| 22:21.31 | TimRiker | ooh ooh, another thing to luv. |
| 22:21.38 | JeffM2501 | yup, it's not a popular one |
| 22:21.55 | Erroneous | like you said, no reasonable admin runs on windows :) |
| 22:22.31 | Erroneous | we could probably handle EAGAIN correctly. but really, it's a good excuse to encourage people to run under a better OS... |
| 22:22.51 | purple_cow | hehe...vista... |
| 22:23.21 | TimRiker | no GSoC proposals to add native DirectX3D support to BZFlag? aw.... |
| 22:23.22 | daxxar | Hm, does BZF run under Vista? ;) |
| 22:23.34 | TimRiker | daxxar: very very slowly, yes. |
| 22:23.48 | daxxar | Why slowly? |
| 22:23.55 | Erroneous | actually not that slowly, assuming you're using the latest nvidia drivers and don't mind an occasional BSOD |
| 22:24.17 | Erroneous | but if you're using the latest nvidia drivers on vista, it can safely be assumed that you don't mind an occasional BSOD anyway :) |
| 22:24.18 | TimRiker | m$ implemented opengl 1.4 as software on top of directx3d. no hardware accel available at all. |
| 22:24.47 | Erroneous | TimRiker: not strictly true, they relented on that. ATi and nvidia both have accelerated GL on vista now. |
| 22:25.19 | TimRiker | and if you enable opengl hardware support, you _must_ disable all desktop directx3d features. transparency, window rotation, etc. essentially if you like win 2003, you'll be pleased as punch. |
| 22:25.20 | Erroneous | it's just apparently really "hard" from a driver perspective, so don't expect anyone else to try. and both sets of drivers have stability problems. |
| 22:25.54 | Erroneous | once again, not true any more |
| 22:25.54 | daxxar | TimRiker: .. Yikes. |
| 22:25.59 | TimRiker | well, I've yet to see a stable driver that implements opengl. |
| 22:26.12 | Erroneous | hey, I think I said they weren't stable :) |
| 22:26.26 | TimRiker | m$ made so many undocumented hoops to jump through, that nobody I know of has done it yet. |
| 22:26.42 | Erroneous | and they DID break plenty of things...can't draw with GDI and GL on the same window any more, for one |
| 22:26.45 | JeffM2501 | TimRiker, just so you know, we pay Erroneous to know about openGL in vista ;) |
| 22:26.50 | JeffM2501 | so he's not just guessing |
| 22:26.52 | TimRiker | Erroneous: "stable" is a requirement. not a "nice to have someday in the future" |
| 22:27.04 | Erroneous | TimRiker: tell microsoft that... :) |
| 22:27.14 | TimRiker | I do. I don't buy m$ |
| 22:27.21 | daxxar | Yet another reason to stay with XP for ones' Windows-based needs, heh. |
| 22:27.24 | Erroneous | ~TimRiker++ |
| 22:27.52 | TimRiker | and I encourage all those I can to tell M$ the same way. |
| 22:27.55 | JeffM2501 | it was such a pig with a gig |
| 22:28.15 | JeffM2501 | wonder how bad nix would be on a usb drive |
| 22:28.30 | Erroneous | indeed, vista's memory requirements are rather insane |
| 22:28.32 | daxxar | I don't pay them either, but I think my school does for me. ;P |
| 22:28.44 | TimRiker | JeffM2501: I have a Linux box at home with 128M on it that likely feels about the same as your vista box with a gig. |
| 22:28.55 | JeffM2501 | it wasn't that bad |
| 22:29.02 | JeffM2501 | felt similar to my mac with 512 |
| 22:29.03 | TimRiker | JeffM2501: not bad on usb 2.0. |
| 22:29.07 | Erroneous | TimRiker: it's probably more stable and more capable, too ;) |
| 22:29.24 | JeffM2501 | mostly I dind't want to go to VC8 |
| 22:29.38 | purple_cow | VC8 looks pretty nice, actually |
| 22:29.41 | Erroneous | though oddly, most of the stability problems I've experienced with vista are directly related to video drivers |
| 22:29.53 | TimRiker | but for some reason all the media pc vendors seem to think I want to pay for a gig of ram in a media server. |
| 22:29.59 | JeffM2501 | purple_cow, it does, but I don't want to swap till we swap at work |
| 22:30.05 | JeffM2501 | so I don't have to maintain 2 projects. |
| 22:30.25 | Erroneous | JeffM2501: we'll swap here soon enough <evil grin> |
| 22:30.26 | JeffM2501 | TimRiker, buy my mac mini, use that as a meda machine:) |
| 22:30.39 | JeffM2501 | Erroneous, when we do, then I'll do it everywhere |
| 22:30.43 | JeffM2501 | it's just easier that way |
| 22:30.44 | TimRiker | Erroneous: yes. as I commented, that's cause M$ made it tough to implement opengl on purpose. |
| 22:30.55 | Erroneous | TimRiker: yup, I know |
| 22:31.05 | JeffM2501 | all the more reason to get an engine that can do directX :) |
| 22:31.05 | Erroneous | "oddly" was sarcasm :) |
| 22:32.00 | Erroneous | or not...left-hand, anybody? :) |
| 22:32.10 | JeffM2501 | that ain't any of them that's a full engine |
| 22:32.11 | TimRiker | so folks are paying for an OS that is _purposefully_ unstable. does not sound like a good business plan to me. unfortunately it seems to be one that the market will still tolerate. |
| 22:32.12 | JeffM2501 | sadly |
| 22:32.44 | JeffM2501 | how many windows apps use GL? |
| 22:33.02 | Erroneous | TimRiker: not only that, it also intentionally breaks backwards compatibility with a ton of applications. it's really quite difficult to get any CAD product running except the latest (2008-edition) stuff. |
| 22:33.55 | Erroneous | I don't see how any IT people could authorize an "upgrade" in good conscience |
| 22:34.12 | TimRiker | I hope it stays that way for a long time. |
| 22:34.14 | ruskie | Erroneous, only the ones that care more about their pay than the client |
| 22:34.15 | JeffM2501 | you think our customers have IT? ;) |
| 22:34.33 | Erroneous | JeffM2501: no, they don't, which is why *I* have to struggle with vista |
| 22:34.38 | JeffM2501 | bingo |
| 22:34.41 | quantumdot | oh ... after reading this, I feel like going to the shop and get my new Vista ;). Sounds like in order to get the fancy 3D desktop thingy they had to break all the rest. |
| 22:34.43 | Erroneous | but most of MS' income is corporate |
| 22:34.45 | JeffM2501 | good thing we pay you :) |
| 22:34.51 | ruskie | especialy when your clients are also buying the software from you so you get a piece of the pie |
| 22:34.52 | Erroneous | yeah, good thing :) |
| 22:35.25 | Erroneous | and if corporate clients refuse to switch, eventually MS will see it where it matters |
| 22:35.44 | JeffM2501 | if they swap to another OS we are screwed |
| 22:35.56 | Erroneous | what, you don't think MCP is portable? :P |
| 22:35.57 | daxxar | Luckily my school has a pretty rigid policy on when and how to upgrade systems (just upgrading to IE7 took ages), so I'm not seeing any Vista on the university systems any time soon. |
| 22:36.09 | daxxar | But I still have to provide support for Vista. :p |
| 22:36.09 | JeffM2501 | if it was all MCP still, yes |
| 22:36.14 | JeffM2501 | but it's 1/2 and 1/2 |
| 22:36.34 | JeffM2501 | that would be our only saving grace |
| 22:36.49 | JeffM2501 | cept maybe the MFC plugins |
| 22:36.58 | Erroneous | MFC stuff already works fine |
| 22:37.05 | JeffM2501 | coo |
| 22:37.22 | Erroneous | you'd want to switch MCP to use native, and let MFC/currently native stuff use libwine |
| 22:37.33 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 22:37.35 | Erroneous | 'cause wine couldn't handle our current main display |
| 22:38.26 | TimRiker | sounds like fun. make it so. :) |
| 22:38.41 | purple_cow | what's this about wine? |
| 22:38.50 | TimRiker | just whining |
| 22:38.51 | Erroneous | purple_cow: would you like a glass? |
| 22:39.12 | JeffM2501 | or that they had internet at that show |
| 22:39.17 | Erroneous | that would be seriously spooky :) |
| 22:39.36 | *** join/#bzflag Links2004 (n=Links200@mnhm-590c295c.pool.einsundeins.de) |
| 22:41.37 | JeffM2501 | does the server set hunted players? |
| 22:41.48 | JeffM2501 | IIRC that's all per client right? |
| 22:42.28 | Erroneous | yeah, all client |
| 22:42.36 | JeffM2501 | thanks |
| 22:43.50 | *** join/#bzflag Sir_Pants (n=Sir_Pant@67-42-80-2.tukw.qwest.net) |
| 22:44.09 | lodxcol | hi, do I'm trying to setup a BZFlag server via terminal using SSH, and I get an error saying I need to update to the latest GNU Autotools |
| 22:44.22 | lodxcol | can anyone give me a link to this? |
| 22:44.40 | JeffM2501 | it would be part of your package manager |
| 22:44.46 | JeffM2501 | what linux distro are you on? |
| 22:44.50 | lodxcol | ubuntu |
| 22:44.56 | JeffM2501 | then it'll be in apt |
| 22:45.05 | lodxcol | the noobie linux, distro, of course :) |
| 22:45.14 | JeffM2501 | apt-cache search auttools |
| 22:45.19 | JeffM2501 | or maybe it's automake |
| 22:45.22 | JeffM2501 | and autoconf |
| 22:45.24 | Erroneous | apt-get install autoconf, apt-get install automake, apt-get install libtool |
| 22:45.29 | JeffM2501 | there ya go :) |
| 22:45.34 | lodxcol | ok, thanks |
| 22:45.43 | purple_cow | apt-get build-dep bzflag? |
| 22:45.49 | Erroneous | or that |
| 22:47.10 | Jwir3 | huh it must record when a moderator looks at your gsoc application, and then place that in the 'last modified' area. because I didn't change my application for a few days. hmmm. |
| 22:47.35 | TimRiker | Erroneous: then vista should work just fine for you. |
| 22:47.59 | TimRiker | Jwir3: someone added comments perhaps? |
| 22:48.10 | Jwir3 | TimRiker: yeah, that's what I looked for, but nope. |
| 22:48.14 | Jwir3 | wierd |
| 22:48.25 | Erroneous | Jwir3: yeah, I think when any field changes it records last modified. there are some fields you can't see (mentor-only comments, etc) |
| 22:48.38 | Jwir3 | ah ok |
| 22:48.45 | JeffM2501 | like the "is hot chick" checkbox |
| 22:48.54 | TimRiker | hot or not? |
| 22:49.12 | purple_cow | JeffM2501: that's the most important one =P |
| 22:49.22 | JeffM2501 | indeed |
| 22:49.41 | Erroneous | TimRiker: correct, repositories are neither necessary nor sufficient reasons to move away from windows. there are plenty of other reasons that are both necessary and sufficient, though... |
| 22:50.02 | Jwir3 | JeffM2501: lol |
| 22:50.24 | Erroneous | and actually it's not strictly true that I avoid repositories, I do use pkgsrc on my bsd boxen |
| 22:50.26 | TimRiker | everyone can see the rank comments, no? or are they private? |
| 22:50.32 | Erroneous | no, they are mentors only |
| 22:50.34 | Jwir3 | TimRiker: no |
| 22:50.49 | Erroneous | if it doesn't say "this comment is visible to the student" then it's not |
| 22:50.56 | *** join/#bzflag sontek (n=sontek@208-47-173-164.dia.static.qwest.net) |
| 22:51.18 | TimRiker | ah. silly me. I expected they could read those. |
| 22:51.40 | Jwir3 | you know I think that academic grading is like the worst concept ever. it should be like pass/fail for all classes |
| 22:51.41 | JeffM2501 | that explains a lot |
| 22:51.49 | TimRiker | hehe |
| 22:52.01 | Erroneous | yeah, I was thinking you might have been hitting the wrong button... :) |
| 22:52.05 | Jwir3 | either I did the work for everything, or I didn't none of this "10% of the students get A's, etc..." |
| 22:52.11 | Jwir3 | sorry, I just had to vent |
| 22:52.27 | JeffM2501 | I was wondering why you were telling us how the student should implement and design it too |
| 22:52.41 | JeffM2501 | well that and telling the student too |
| 22:52.44 | Jwir3 | lol |
| 22:53.18 | Erroneous | Jwir3: a) there are other places to vent, b) you will be compared to other people your whole life, get used to it, and c) there are some places that are pass/fail for part or all of your coursework, why didn't you go to one of those? :) |
| 22:53.39 | Jwir3 | Erroneous: I don't mind be compared to other people |
| 22:53.44 | JeffM2501 | there are definatly difrent quality levels in life |
| 22:53.53 | Jwir3 | Erroneous: I just don't like the system HERE ;> |
| 22:53.58 | Erroneous | heh |
| 22:54.04 | JeffM2501 | sure mcdonalds makes food that keeps you alive, but it dosn't taste the same as a good steak ;) |
| 22:54.06 | Jwir3 | Erroneous: and, you're right. I should vent somewhere else. :) |
| 22:55.08 | Erroneous | Jwir3: we're not actually to strict about on-topicness here, but it's generally good practice, particularly when there is an on-topic conversation going on :) |
| 22:55.14 | Erroneous | s/to/too/ |
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| 22:57.53 | daxxar | Oh well. I'll hit the sack. :-) |
| 22:58.09 | Erroneous | g'night daxxar |
| 22:58.17 | daxxar | Erroneous: Btw, when you're using apt-get / aptitude, you can list multiple package-names on one commandline. (e.g. apt-get install autoconf automake libtool) |
| 22:58.36 | daxxar | Not that it sounds you'll have much use for that piece of information ;) |
| 22:58.44 | Erroneous | daxxar: as I mentioned, I avoid them :) and libtool has the others as a dependencies anyway, iirc |
| 22:59.19 | quantumdot | lodxcol: if you are still reading .... regarding the install of bzflag from apt just mind you "apt-get install" will not install the most recent stable bzflag, in Ubuntu I think it will install 2.0.4 (?) |
| 22:59.27 | JeffM2501 | so iws there a way to delete comments? |
| 22:59.48 | lodxcol | quantumdot: I know, I did a CVS Checkout of 2.0.9 |
| 22:59.50 | daxxar | Yep, looks like you're right, so only the latter would've been needed. But for the most part, purple_cow's build-dep is probably the most straight-forward approach, given the bzflag-source in the repository isn't *ancient*. |
| 23:00.16 | quantumdot | lodxcol: so you would need to dl and compile it |
| 23:00.25 | lodxcol | yep |
| 23:00.26 | quantumdot | well i guess you know all that |
| 23:00.29 | lodxcol | yep |
| 23:00.40 | quantumdot | i was driven by your question :) |
| 23:01.47 | daxxar | But now I'm heading to bed, for real. ;) |
| 23:02.31 | daxxar | Thank you, and good night, Erroneous ;-) (slightly delayed) |
| 23:02.39 | Erroneous | heh, g'night |
| 23:07.20 | Jwir3 | well, time for class. have a good night all. might be on later |
| 23:09.04 | JeffM2501 | L4m3r, your applicaton needs more about you |
| 23:14.24 | *** join/#bzflag RC (n=88a0fafd@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 23:15.17 | *** join/#bzflag RC_cola (n=88a0fafd@bz.bzflag.bz) |
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| 23:17.13 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 23:18.00 | Erroneous | gah, and I got a conflict with JeffM2501 too |
| 23:18.11 | JeffM2501 | heh |
| 23:18.15 | brlcad | Erroneous: hehe |
| 23:18.17 | JeffM2501 | that one is way too short |
| 23:18.22 | Erroneous | yeah it is |
| 23:18.46 | JeffM2501 | the range between the #1 and #2 is awesome |
| 23:19.22 | Erroneous | brlcad: that's why I didn't feel bad stealing it from you :) |
| 23:19.59 | Erroneous | JeffM2501: the funny thing is that he was so worried about it :) |
| 23:20.12 | JeffM2501 | then he should have writen more then 5 lines |
| 23:20.17 | Erroneous | not him |
| 23:20.18 | Erroneous | #1 |
| 23:20.20 | JeffM2501 | oh |
| 23:20.21 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 23:20.49 | SportChick | ~lart jeffm2501 |
| 23:20.49 | ibot | takes large quantities of Krispy Kream donuts and stuffs them one after another down jeffm2501's throat until jeffm2501 puts on 150lbs |
| 23:20.51 | JeffM2501 | I think I've hit all the ones I care to rank |
| 23:21.26 | JeffM2501 | I'm not the best to eval the bot client ones |
| 23:21.49 | JeffM2501 | I'm not big on 2 tank |
| 23:21.56 | JeffM2501 | but I won't mark it as a - |
| 23:22.13 | Erroneous | not gonna hit up the web interface ones? :) |
| 23:22.17 | JeffM2501 | I did |
| 23:22.28 | JeffM2501 | oh |
| 23:22.28 | JeffM2501 | web |
| 23:22.29 | JeffM2501 | no |
| 23:22.39 | JeffM2501 | I did the server list ones |
| 23:22.43 | Erroneous | ah |
| 23:22.44 | JeffM2501 | I know little about webwork |
| 23:23.12 | JeffM2501 | I have my own ideas how to admin servers, but I'm sure that's just my workflow, no need to apply that to other ideas that may be good for others. |
| 23:23.39 | JeffM2501 | tho I'd like to see all the ones I said I'd mentor for :) |
| 23:24.48 | *** join/#bzflag iFeghali (n=igor@201.79.70.10) |
| 23:24.52 | iFeghali | hi there |
| 23:24.55 | JeffM2501 | hello |
| 23:25.03 | iFeghali | anyone has ever got a joystick working on bzflag ? |
| 23:25.09 | JeffM2501 | sure |
| 23:25.20 | iFeghali | i have a M$ Sidewinder Force Feedback Pro 2 and Mac OS X |
| 23:25.28 | JeffM2501 | oh, on the mac |
| 23:25.33 | iFeghali | but y axis is not working |
| 23:25.52 | iFeghali | and X axis makes my tank go on diagonals |
| 23:25.54 | Erroneous | why does the sentence "The documentation will match BZFlag standards" scare me so much? :) |
| 23:26.11 | iFeghali | any clue ? |
| 23:26.13 | hobbsc | is there some way to monitor stats on a server and output it to a file. i'd like to track things like scores and users for a couple of games |
| 23:26.22 | Erroneous | iFeghali: set your axes correctly in the joystick options |
| 23:26.23 | JeffM2501 | iFeghali, not for OSX no, sound slike you need a calibration |
| 23:26.47 | Erroneous | make sure X is X and Y is Y, and if they are, cycle though Y until it's on Y again and then try it. |
| 23:26.59 | Erroneous | there was an initialization problem on SDLJoystick |
| 23:27.24 | Erroneous | if you're not running 2.0.8 you should consider upgrading anyway ;) |
| 23:31.57 | JeffM2501 | now a nasty april fools joke for google would be to approve the bottom 5 for each project :) |
| 23:32.17 | iFeghali | Erroneous: I see only N/A in there and dont know how to change it |
| 23:32.29 | iFeghali | JeffM2501: have no idea how to calibrate it under OSX |
| 23:32.33 | JeffM2501 | nor do I |
| 23:32.34 | Erroneous | iFeghali: left/right arrows should change it |
| 23:32.54 | iFeghali | Erroneous: it makes a beep and doesnt change |
| 23:33.10 | Erroneous | hm...what other options are there on that page? perhaps one of them has to be changed first |
| 23:33.16 | JBdiGriz | What version of BZFlag are you running? |
| 23:33.23 | JeffM2501 | doesn't he have to pick joystic? |
| 23:33.23 | iFeghali | 2.0.8 |
| 23:33.39 | Erroneous | JeffM2501: I hope not, it should work on auto |
| 23:33.40 | iFeghali | I already did that |
| 23:33.53 | JeffM2501 | then perhaps SDL dosn't detect the stick |
| 23:33.56 | Erroneous | he does have to select the right joystick, but I think he did that |
| 23:33.57 | JeffM2501 | it may not have drivers at all |
| 23:34.00 | JBdiGriz | You do have to pick joystick, all of it is handled by SDL after that. |
| 23:34.05 | iFeghali | Erroneous: yes i did |
| 23:34.12 | JeffM2501 | maybe the "diagonal" was somone hit a mouse with an arm? |
| 23:34.27 | Erroneous | JeffM2501: no, we had a problem where we'd map both X and Y to axis 1 on SDL |
| 23:34.29 | iFeghali | Erroneous: it shows "sidewinder forcefeedback joystick" |
| 23:34.33 | JeffM2501 | oh |
| 23:34.43 | JeffM2501 | that sucks |
| 23:34.48 | Erroneous | and then our interface would lie about it |
| 23:34.49 | brlcad | heh, the deadline was extended again |
| 23:34.55 | JeffM2501 | till when? |
| 23:34.55 | brlcad | google is evil to the kiddies |
| 23:34.58 | Erroneous | was a really nasty lil' bug :) |
| 23:34.59 | brlcad | 16 hours, 32 minutes, 32 seconds to the SoC student deadline. |
| 23:35.03 | Erroneous | heh |
| 23:35.05 | Erroneous | midnight |
| 23:35.06 | JeffM2501 | tomorow moring at 8? |
| 23:35.08 | JeffM2501 | ahh ok |
| 23:35.09 | *** join/#bzflag HighKarateKitty (n=HighKara@ip68-98-31-187.ph.ph.cox.net) |
| 23:35.15 | JBdiGriz | Erroneous: When did you fix that bug? |
| 23:35.16 | iFeghali | Erroneous: so i suppose its the right joystick |
| 23:35.17 | JeffM2501 | good, L4m3r can add moe to his |
| 23:35.25 | brlcad | probably because the web interface sucks ballage |
| 23:35.36 | Erroneous | JBdiGriz: I thought it was just before 2.0.6, but it was a long time ago :) |
| 23:35.38 | brlcad | they can keep adding comments |
| 23:35.42 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 23:35.43 | *** join/#bzflag triclops (n=triclops@203-206-229-70.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 23:35.49 | JeffM2501 | he needs to just fillin more about himself to be fair |
| 23:35.57 | JeffM2501 | even tho we've like MEET him in person. |
| 23:36.22 | JeffM2501 | unless they use the word java |
| 23:36.23 | Erroneous | yeah, I thought that was kind of a strange comment... "we need to know more about you"... :P |
| 23:36.39 | JeffM2501 | just for fairness Erroneous not everyone has meet him |
| 23:36.43 | JBdiGriz | I recall when we were adding all the SDL/joystick code. I had to make some changes for the buttons, but the joystick worked without changes on the Mac. |
| 23:37.00 | Erroneous | JBdiGriz: yeah, I broke it when I added axis selection |
| 23:37.07 | Erroneous | then I fixed it again sometime after |
| 23:37.26 | iFeghali | so it seems that my version is broken ? |
| 23:37.38 | JBdiGriz | I'm not sure I checked that out on the Mac. Last time I tried it, it was working. |
| 23:37.40 | Erroneous | iFeghali: you should be able to select the axes manually |
| 23:37.48 | Erroneous | if you can't, there's something else wrong |
| 23:38.28 | Erroneous | hm, nope, I only fixed that in HEAD, and it was after 2.0.8 |
| 23:38.50 | Erroneous | broke it in 2.0.2 |
| 23:38.53 | JBdiGriz | Unfortunately, I don't have my joystick here to check it out, but I can try in a couple of hours. |
| 23:38.56 | Erroneous | and nobody complained until 2.0.8 |
| 23:39.39 | Erroneous | http://bzflag.cvs.sourceforge.net/bzflag/bzflag/src/platform/SDLJoystick.cxx?r1=2.1&r2=2.2 <- broke |
| 23:39.49 | Erroneous | http://bzflag.cvs.sourceforge.net/bzflag/bzflag/src/platform/SDLJoystick.cxx?r1=2.6&r2=2.7 <- fixed |
| 23:40.27 | JBdiGriz | I don't see anything in there that says "I hate Macintoshes" ;) |
| 23:41.55 | iFeghali | ok i have news |
| 23:42.15 | iFeghali | i started the game again |
| 23:42.22 | iFeghali | now i could select the axis |
| 23:42.39 | iFeghali | it was working ok but the y axis wasnt calibrated |
| 23:42.51 | iFeghali | then I activated force feedback |
| 23:42.56 | iFeghali | and now everything is fine |
| 23:43.21 | iFeghali | this is weird |
| 23:43.29 | iFeghali | but at least is working now |
| 23:43.37 | trovao | brlcad: hey there, I just submitted my SoC proposal, I hope it is good enough ;) |
| 23:44.05 | brlcad | trovao: okie dokie.. good luck! |
| 23:44.32 | iFeghali | so the last issue would be how to map some action to my stick buttons |
| 23:44.36 | brlcad | you must have gotten a 502 |
| 23:44.42 | brlcad | posted twice |
| 23:45.03 | trovao | brlcad: lemme check |
| 23:45.14 | trovao | yeah... |
| 23:45.16 | trovao | :-/ |
| 23:45.32 | trovao | is there a way to delete that? |
| 23:45.39 | iFeghali | trovao: no |
| 23:45.39 | brlcad | taken care of |
| 23:46.17 | trovao | iFeghali: I am talking to brlcad :P |
| 23:46.49 | trovao | iFeghali: just kidding, thanks |
| 23:46.49 | iFeghali | trovao: I didn't see his name before your sentence :P |
| 23:47.07 | iFeghali | trovao: leave a comment telling your org to ignore one of them |
| 23:47.17 | trovao | iFeghali: so, are you able to play, already? |
| 23:47.18 | brlcad | it's already taken care of |
| 23:47.21 | *** join/#bzflag spldart (n=troublem@cpe-24-28-107-184.houston.res.rr.com) |
| 23:47.38 | iFeghali | trovao: not yet. still trying to figure out how to get my buttons working |
| 23:47.41 | trovao | iFeghali: no problem, me second application was marked "Ineligible" |
| 23:48.10 | trovao | hmm |
| 23:49.47 | iFeghali | never mind |
| 23:50.19 | iFeghali | I could assign my joystick buttons in the key mapping config |
| 23:53.38 | JBdiGriz | You can assign joystick buttons by editting the config file, or by using the GUI in game. |
| 23:54.48 | trovao | someday I'll buy a new joystick... |
| 23:59.13 | *** join/#bzflag Raziel (n=Raziel@cm245164.red83-165.mundo-r.com) |