| 00:07.33 | *** join/#bzflag A-Delusion (n=A-Delusi@pool-151-201-122-253.pitt.east.verizon.net) |
| 00:11.32 | *** join/#bzflag Bluer_ (n=user@60.51.113.94) |
| 00:31.30 | *** part/#bzflag A-Delusion (n=A-Delusi@pool-151-201-122-253.pitt.east.verizon.net) |
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| 00:39.43 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v orchid] by ChanServ |
| 00:49.48 | CBG` | Merry Christmas Everyone! |
| 00:49.56 | CBG` | Errr, wait... Happy New Year!! |
| 00:50.00 | CBG` | Yeah, that's the one.. |
| 00:50.31 | tannerld | CBG`: lol |
| 00:50.51 | CBG` | Or is it someone's birthday? |
| 00:51.04 | CBG` | ... our anniversary, tannerld? |
| 00:54.06 | *** join/#bzflag yo (n=48c76904@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 00:56.33 | spldart | Merry Easter Platapus |
| 00:56.54 | CBG` | EASTER!! That's it! |
| 00:57.19 | biggeruniverse | boxing day |
| 00:57.28 | biggeruniverse | michaelmas |
| 00:57.39 | CBG` | biggeruniverse: don't be stupid, boxing day is still months away. |
| 00:57.48 | biggeruniverse | :( |
| 00:57.59 | biggeruniverse | and we already missed michaelmas... |
| 00:58.15 | CBG` | Who's Michael? |
| 00:58.22 | *** join/#bzflag bz84 (n=4b397667@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 00:58.54 | CBG` | Happy Easter, bz84! |
| 01:09.42 | biggeruniverse | the angel |
| 01:10.10 | biggeruniverse | the saint |
| 01:10.14 | biggeruniverse | something like that |
| 01:11.25 | *** join/#bzflag Legoguy|L (n=Legoguy@adsl-76-213-166-156.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net) |
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| 01:39.57 | diing | hey |
| 01:43.07 | brlcad | is for horses |
| 01:46.44 | spldart | that's so... my mom |
| 01:48.25 | brlcad | eat your carrots |
| 01:50.48 | spldart | mmMMmm carrots |
| 01:51.25 | *** join/#bzflag Mad_Ferret (n=4a6421e0@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 01:55.37 | *** join/#bzflag a_temp_dist (n=a_temp_d@63-228-50-34.mpls.qwest.net) |
| 01:58.58 | spldart | df |
| 02:00.48 | brlcad | Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Mounted on |
| 02:00.49 | brlcad | /dev/ad0s1a 253678 40712 192672 17% / |
| 02:00.52 | *** join/#bzflag Theme97 (n=Theme97@about/essy/phpwriter/Theme97) |
| 02:01.16 | spldart | small anyone? |
| 02:01.23 | spldart | what is it? |
| 02:01.41 | brlcad | what is what? |
| 02:01.58 | spldart | */dev/ad0s1a??? |
| 02:02.08 | spldart | I'm not familiar with that /dev/ |
| 02:02.42 | brlcad | freebsd |
| 02:02.46 | orchid | some sort of bsd slicey thing? |
| 02:02.55 | brlcad | disk 0, slice 1, partition a |
| 02:06.31 | a_meteorite | ~seen JeffM2501 |
| 02:06.57 | ibot | jeffm2501 <n=jeffm@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/JeffM2501> was last seen on IRC in channel ##essy, 7d 7h 50m 11s ago, saying: 'but vegas and San Diego with Dana will be quite nice'. |
| 02:11.27 | Flash | is there an admin for in-league.bzflag.eu about? |
| 02:20.48 | *** join/#bzflag L4m3r_ (n=l4m3r@pool-71-118-51-14.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) |
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| 02:22.03 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o Chestal] by irc.freenode.net |
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| 02:23.33 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v orchid] by irc.freenode.net |
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| 02:23.39 | *** mode/#bzflag [+ovv brlcad Manu SportChick] by irc.freenode.net |
| 02:25.12 | spldart | A bad hsf for a p4 or k7 modified for a k6 means a cpu that is COOL |
| 02:25.13 | *** join/#bzflag purple_cow (n=david@zero.navi.cx) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
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| 02:25.15 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o purple_cow] by irc.freenode.net |
| 02:25.25 | spldart | WEE |
| 02:25.25 | spldart | everyone is back |
| 02:25.25 | brlcad | oohh.. when did mebigfatguy join? |
| 02:25.25 | spldart | woah... 2k6 2k7 changeover in server net land? |
| 02:25.25 | brlcad | mm.. last night! |
| 02:25.26 | spldart | heh |
| 02:26.04 | SpazzyMcGee | mental |
| 02:26.04 | brlcad | howdy apathy |
| 02:40.04 | *** join/#bzflag CBG (n=CBG@cpc4-stme1-0-0-cust103.cdif.cable.ntl.com) |
| 02:40.32 | *** join/#bzflag CBG (n=CBG@cpc4-stme1-0-0-cust103.cdif.cable.ntl.com) |
| 02:50.11 | spldart | man... methinks their maybe some cheat clients on gm war... that 4 team ctf |
| 02:50.31 | spldart | Not sure but d@## |
| 02:51.01 | spldart | is SW hit detect different that shot hit detect? |
| 02:51.05 | spldart | I know SR is different |
| 02:51.36 | L4m3r | you can lag your way out of shockwaves |
| 02:51.45 | L4m3r | if it's bad enough |
| 02:56.40 | *** join/#bzflag AAA_awright (n=chatzill@wsip-68-14-251-102.ph.ph.cox.net) |
| 02:59.15 | spldart | Actually i was wondering if someone hacked to make shot's not kill does that cover cheating out of shockwaves too? |
| 02:59.44 | spldart | I had one dude we had to use SR on and one dude I ended up SW'ing cuz shot's... including GM kept goin through him |
| 03:00.51 | CBG | If you make your tank invincible to "shots", it will most likely include SWs. |
| 03:01.19 | blast007 | CBG: not necessarily :P |
| 03:01.27 | CBG | "most likely". |
| 03:01.33 | AAA_awright | ditto |
| 03:01.42 | spldart | Was wondering... I know one hack will not cover SR but shots yes |
| 03:02.01 | CBG | I stopped "shots" from killing my tank (as a test, of course) by editing only two lines of code. It blocked SWs too. |
| 03:02.12 | spldart | interesting |
| 03:02.45 | CBG | Only SR killed me. |
| 03:04.37 | spldart | A purple kept coming though all the shots including locked gm's that we used SR on and one blue did the same.. kept goin though all the shots... while he was sitting spraying all of us with GM I finally lucked into a SW and jumped right at him while he was facing another.... All my team wouldn't get away at the same time so I zapped him, a purple and one of my own :-\ |
| 03:05.26 | spldart | it was fun thought :) |
| 03:05.28 | mebigfatguy | howdy |
| 03:05.57 | spldart | Happy new bzflag year! |
| 03:12.00 | *** join/#bzflag Bluer2 (n=user@60.51.113.94) |
| 03:12.58 | Flash | spldart: were the bots still there? |
| 03:15.28 | *** join/#bzflag Bluer (n=user@about/essy/terimahkSC/Bluer) |
| 03:16.00 | *** join/#bzflag shorty114 (n=shorty11@unaffiliated/shorty114) |
| 03:21.33 | spldart | back... wife made a messy :) |
| 03:21.35 | spldart | umm.. |
| 03:21.41 | spldart | actually don't know |
| 03:21.44 | spldart | wait |
| 03:22.10 | spldart | I was in there some minutes before this episode and they were... but don't remember seeing them this last time |
| 03:22.57 | *** join/#bzflag Flash (n=jwmelto@c-24-9-8-185.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 03:23.19 | spldart | no matter |
| 03:23.48 | Flash | sorry.... hard lock-up |
| 03:24.02 | Flash | so, spldart were the bots still there when you were playing? |
| 03:32.55 | *** join/#bzflag Theme97_ (n=Theme97@about/essy/phpwriter/Theme97) |
| 03:38.16 | spldart | they were a time a few minutes earlier... not the more recent time I was talking about.... to the best of my memory |
| 03:38.20 | spldart | I could be wrong |
| 03:38.49 | spldart | when I was in their earlier and had an opposing teamate in my sites I took my shot then a bot shot me in the butt |
| 03:38.57 | spldart | but later I don't remember any |
| 03:41.09 | *** join/#bzflag shorty114 (n=shorty11@unaffiliated/shorty114) |
| 03:41.34 | spldart | twas a bot tk |
| 03:43.33 | Flash | I tried to play a few hours ago and first I couldn't get in |
| 03:43.42 | Flash | then, some guy had like 7 bots playing |
| 03:44.00 | Flash | we tried to kick/ban him 4 times, but most people are too clueless to vote |
| 03:45.57 | spldart | LOL |
| 03:46.22 | spldart | I don't remember any /ban's... althought somebody called for a kick of a player who was harrassing via pm |
| 03:47.55 | *** join/#bzflag codergeek42 (n=peter@fedora/codergeek42) |
| 04:00.11 | *** join/#bzflag Tupone (n=Tupone@host-84-222-131-220.cust-adsl.tiscali.it) |
| 04:00.34 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v Tupone] by ChanServ |
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| 04:45.28 | AAA_awright | <PROTECTED> |
| 04:45.31 | AAA_awright | remember it |
| 04:46.06 | tannerld | ? |
| 05:07.00 | spldart | thought about telling the dude to mute the other dude |
| 05:17.37 | AAA_awright | Everyone: want a bzflag new years celebration? I missed the EST new year, but... |
| 05:20.18 | spldart | ? |
| 05:20.38 | AAA_awright | nevermind then... |
| 05:20.46 | spldart | :-( |
| 05:21.04 | AAA_awright | oh, so yes? |
| 05:21.14 | spldart | perhaps... was the idea? |
| 05:22.08 | spldart | meet up on a certain server? |
| 05:22.28 | AAA_awright | lets see first |
| 05:23.43 | *** join/#bzflag Pommes_ (n=Pommes@pD9546681.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 05:54.02 | *** join/#bzflag bz70 (n=44234660@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 06:04.44 | *** join/#bzflag CBG (n=CBG@about/essy/fan/CBG) |
| 06:22.36 | biggeruniverse | I thought it was Easter! |
| 06:36.58 | spldart | The Easter Platapus says happy new year! |
| 06:37.49 | a_meteorite | Bunny... |
| 06:37.54 | a_meteorite | Now you'll get coal in your basket! |
| 06:38.31 | blast007 | chocolate covered coal |
| 06:38.41 | blast007 | so you don't realize it's coal until you bite it |
| 06:38.48 | a_meteorite | Yeah. |
| 06:39.00 | a_meteorite | That's what Santa should do... gift wrapped coal. |
| 06:39.08 | blast007 | totally |
| 06:39.23 | blast007 | and gift wrapped plutonium |
| 06:39.25 | a_meteorite | "I wonder what's in this huge box!!" *rip rip rip* *cry* "COAL!) |
| 06:39.34 | spldart | I want some gift wrapped plutonium |
| 06:39.42 | blast007 | stewie got some |
| 06:39.42 | a_meteorite | :D |
| 06:39.48 | blast007 | and some coal too |
| 06:40.09 | *** join/#bzflag Theme97 (n=Theme97@about/essy/phpwriter/Theme97) |
| 06:59.17 | biggeruniverse | bleah |
| 06:59.56 | biggeruniverse | plutonium isn't cheap, you know |
| 07:00.22 | blast007 | the easter bunny lays eggs |
| 07:00.31 | blast007 | I think they can make some cash with that |
| 07:00.46 | biggeruniverse | but the *cadbury* bunny lays chocolate, cream-filled eggs |
| 07:00.57 | biggeruniverse | and clucks like a chicken |
| 07:01.15 | blast007 | chickens! |
| 07:01.16 | biggeruniverse | authorities suspect genetic manipulation.... |
| 07:01.25 | blast007 | with gravy! |
| 07:01.41 | biggeruniverse | hausenfefer! |
| 07:05.26 | *** join/#bzflag spldart (n=short_ci@cpe-24-28-107-184.houston.res.rr.com) |
| 07:23.50 | Flash | anybody awake? |
| 07:23.59 | Flash | or sober? |
| 07:25.19 | DTRemenak | nope |
| 07:30.28 | *** join/#bzflag Bluer (n=user@about/essy/terimahkSC/Bluer) |
| 07:35.00 | biggeruniverse | what? |
| 07:35.14 | biggeruniverse | I'm not awake |
| 07:45.24 | Flash | I noticed that localization doesn't entirely work |
| 07:45.45 | Flash | when you pick up a flag, it tells you the localized name |
| 07:45.54 | Flash | but if you look at somebody, it doesn't |
| 07:46.20 | Flash | the flag name is stored (and directly accessed) as a char* member of FlagType |
| 07:46.42 | Flash | is the right thing for FlagType to know about World? |
| 07:46.51 | Flash | or for the localized string to be stored in FlagType |
| 07:47.02 | Flash | the latter approach has a problem if the locale is changed |
| 07:47.11 | Flash | but the former may be pervasive |
| 08:04.30 | *** join/#bzflag Theme97 (n=Theme97@about/essy/phpwriter/Theme97) |
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| 11:19.53 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v Tupone] by ChanServ |
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| 15:48.28 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v orchid] by ChanServ |
| 16:17.50 | *** join/#bzflag bz16 (n=522800e0@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 16:18.10 | bz16 | how do you register on the actual game |
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| 16:28.18 | biggeruniverse | localization should probably be handled differently altogether |
| 16:32.46 | *** join/#bzflag Wanda (n=coredump@p5499822A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 16:40.13 | spldart | yawn |
| 16:40.57 | *** join/#bzflag tannerld (n=tanner@adsl-068-209-251-067.sip.asm.bellsouth.net) |
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| 17:32.58 | biggeruniverse | :P |
| 17:34.04 | gsnedders | it's new year's day… no time for such serious matters! |
| 17:34.46 | biggeruniverse | on new year's day |
| 17:35.16 | biggeruniverse | sounds like U2 |
| 17:36.03 | *** join/#bzflag ElectricElf (n=dbharris@bas14-toronto12-1167998578.dsl.bell.ca) |
| 17:36.18 | biggeruniverse | ow! It zapped me! |
| 17:39.47 | gsnedders | biggeruniverse: may be more than coincidence that I was listening to New Year's Day when I said that :) |
| 17:54.00 | *** join/#bzflag ep (n=mdr@about/essy/guynextdoor/ep) |
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| 18:03.17 | *** join/#bzflag [NP]Tangent (n=hyperdev@65.167.130.12) |
| 18:19.12 | AAA_awright | I noticed you cannot send messages to a bzflag server in the 2.0.9 CVS code... when you attempt to, does it ignore the message or close the connection? |
| 18:20.15 | AAA_awright | I use that "bug" to secretly log in with /password than run /shutdownserver or any number of options... |
| 18:20.24 | AAA_awright | I still want to be able to. |
| 18:29.26 | blast007 | AAA_awright: that was changed |
| 18:29.32 | blast007 | it was being heavily abused |
| 18:29.39 | spldart | heh |
| 18:29.46 | blast007 | and as you said, it was a "bug" |
| 18:30.04 | AAA_awright | Can the server be setup to simple not _print_ messages? |
| 18:30.10 | AAA_awright | but parse them? |
| 18:30.17 | blast007 | no |
| 18:30.35 | AAA_awright | Coult I submit a patch before the next version of BZFlag comes out? |
| 18:30.35 | blast007 | all you have to do is join as a player |
| 18:30.53 | blast007 | why would we want that functionality? |
| 18:31.03 | AAA_awright | for hidden admin functionality |
| 18:31.16 | blast007 | bad reason |
| 18:31.27 | AAA_awright | it works wonderfully though :) |
| 18:31.32 | blast007 | sure |
| 18:31.37 | blast007 | but it has too many flaws |
| 18:31.38 | AAA_awright | any alternitives? |
| 18:31.45 | blast007 | make a plugin |
| 18:32.02 | blast007 | with an admin interface ;) |
| 18:32.02 | AAA_awright | It seemed to work fine, my server shut down at midnignt every day :) |
| 18:32.12 | blast007 | bzfcron? |
| 18:32.21 | blast007 | or is it bzfscron |
| 18:32.32 | AAA_awright | linky? |
| 18:32.42 | AAA_awright | don't know |
| 18:32.49 | AAA_awright | er... what that id |
| 18:33.05 | blast007 | http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?t=5018 |
| 18:34.11 | *** join/#bzflag Birdie (n=Birdie__@d54C12302.access.telenet.be) |
| 18:34.18 | AAA_awright | I use it with https://labs.redjacket.ws/bzfsadmin/ bzflag server admin that I made |
| 18:34.44 | AAA_awright | and I was in the process of setting it up with meteorite and Mofo for production use |
| 18:35.35 | AAA_awright | And that is how I shut the servers down and load plugins via a web interface. |
| 18:35.41 | AAA_awright | It would be sad to see that go. |
| 18:35.43 | blast007 | guess you'll have to adapt |
| 18:36.03 | blast007 | relying on a flaw to make code work isn't the greatest idea ;) |
| 18:36.14 | AAA_awright | I was going for a solution that required no plugins. |
| 18:36.39 | AAA_awright | And I wouldn't consider it a flaw if I specially coded it into the source. |
| 18:37.23 | blast007 | we specifically coded it so that it wouldn't work |
| 18:37.36 | blast007 | but you're free to adjust your own servers |
| 18:37.48 | blast007 | and submit a patch if you want, but no guarentee of acceptance |
| 18:41.28 | *** join/#bzflag Bullet_Friendly (n=4a8200eb@vs189182.vserver.de) |
| 18:41.33 | Bullet_Friendly | hi |
| 18:41.43 | *** join/#bzflag Bluer_ (n=user@60.53.21.190) |
| 18:42.01 | Bullet_Friendly | I need some help getting my skin on my client! |
| 18:42.13 | AAA_awright | Changing the textures? |
| 18:42.20 | Bullet_Friendly | yes |
| 18:42.30 | Bullet_Friendly | i have them downloaded now what do i do |
| 18:42.48 | *** join/#bzflag TD-Linux (n=TD-Linux@24-159-197-22.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com) |
| 18:42.56 | AAA_awright | There is a directory they are stored in... what OS are you on? |
| 18:43.02 | Bullet_Friendly | OS |
| 18:43.16 | Bullet_Friendly | ? |
| 18:43.21 | blast007 | Operating System |
| 18:43.23 | Bullet_Friendly | lol |
| 18:43.25 | Bullet_Friendly | windows |
| 18:43.28 | Bullet_Friendly | xp |
| 18:43.42 | blast007 | c:\Program Files\BZFlag 2.0.8\data\ |
| 18:43.46 | Bullet_Friendly | k |
| 18:43.49 | AAA_awright | Try C:\program files\bzflag2.0.8\data |
| 18:44.13 | AAA_awright | or somthing like that ;) |
| 18:45.27 | Bullet_Friendly | where do i go to get to that |
| 18:45.44 | Bullet_Friendly | im new to my computer folks |
| 18:45.45 | AAA_awright | use explorer to go to C:\Program Files\ |
| 18:46.11 | Bullet_Friendly | yes |
| 18:46.13 | Bullet_Friendly | i got it |
| 18:46.16 | Bullet_Friendly | now what do i do |
| 18:46.25 | AAA_awright | and there should be a directory called BZFlag2.0.8 |
| 18:46.29 | Bullet_Friendly | yes |
| 18:46.40 | AAA_awright | okay, and inside that data |
| 18:46.51 | AAA_awright | and there are the image textures |
| 18:46.54 | AAA_awright | you have to replace those |
| 18:46.56 | Bullet_Friendly | its got all the pics |
| 18:47.00 | Bullet_Friendly | k |
| 18:47.02 | Bullet_Friendly | fofr textures |
| 18:47.11 | Bullet_Friendly | now do i delete |
| 18:47.14 | AAA_awright | I would back up any textures you are replacing |
| 18:47.30 | AAA_awright | create a new dir called old or somthing like that |
| 18:47.33 | Bullet_Friendly | so save them to someone else |
| 18:47.34 | AAA_awright | and put them in ther |
| 18:47.44 | Bullet_Friendly | so new folder?\ |
| 18:47.46 | AAA_awright | C:\Program Files\BZFlag2.0.8\data\old for example |
| 18:47.48 | AAA_awright | yup |
| 18:47.51 | Bullet_Friendly | k |
| 18:47.59 | blast007 | Bullet_Friendly: it really doesn't matter what you do with them |
| 18:48.05 | Bullet_Friendly | k |
| 18:48.07 | blast007 | worst case you can uninstall and reinstall |
| 18:48.10 | Bullet_Friendly | done with that |
| 18:48.17 | Bullet_Friendly | yes blast |
| 18:48.24 | AAA_awright | yah, nice to get into a good habbit though |
| 18:48.29 | Bullet_Friendly | so delte em? |
| 18:50.03 | AAA_awright | if you really want to say bye, just drag the new ones onto the old ones and it will replace them |
| 19:09.56 | Bullet_Friendly | |thanks |
| 19:09.58 | Bullet_Friendly | it works |
| 19:10.00 | Bullet_Friendly | now |
| 19:19.44 | spldart | why does debian run so late on apt packages anywho? :( |
| 19:19.59 | *** join/#bzflag Destroyer (n=5886d26c@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 19:20.08 | Destroyer | hi all |
| 19:20.13 | Destroyer | anyone here? |
| 19:20.22 | spldart | yeah |
| 19:20.28 | spldart | hi back |
| 19:21.00 | Destroyer | know you how i can compile the bzflag installer under windows? |
| 19:21.16 | spldart | I tried and failed a couple times... so no :( |
| 19:21.27 | Destroyer | oh... |
| 19:21.32 | Destroyer | np :) |
| 19:21.43 | spldart | there has been some activity in here though |
| 19:21.54 | spldart | including a dev |
| 19:22.00 | spldart | so wait a few ;-) |
| 19:22.19 | Destroyer | what you mean? |
| 19:23.26 | spldart | A dev-eloper was just talking a bit ago and he may be able to answer your query in a few... he may be away from his machine at this time... might want to wait a few minutes... ' ;-) ' |
| 19:23.50 | spldart | But as anything in life... there are no guarantee's |
| 19:24.43 | Destroyer | ok |
| 19:24.45 | Destroyer | thx |
| 19:24.58 | Destroyer | bye and a happy new year! :) |
| 19:31.12 | blast007 | heh...just missed him, oh well |
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| 19:31.37 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o JBdiGriz] by ChanServ |
| 19:38.37 | *** join/#bzflag SpazzyMcGe (n=SpazzyMc@fordend.demon.co.uk) |
| 19:50.57 | *** join/#bzflag BWD (n=bdotson@pdpc/supporter/student/bdotson) |
| 19:51.27 | *** join/#bzflag Flash_as1eep (n=jwmelto@c-24-9-8-185.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 19:52.59 | *** join/#bzflag ts (n=ts@p54B0395E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 19:57.14 | Flash | JBdiGriz: Happy New Year |
| 20:03.56 | *** join/#bzflag a_temp_dist (n=a_temp_d@63-228-50-59.mpls.qwest.net) |
| 20:05.25 | spldart | would stores... like Fry's, Compusa, Best buy be open today? |
| 20:05.55 | tannerld | probably |
| 20:05.58 | tannerld | with sales? |
| 20:06.01 | spldart | coolies |
| 20:06.05 | SpazzyMcGee | Anybody know when Jeff's back? |
| 20:06.07 | spldart | mmMMmm sales |
| 20:06.26 | spldart | I need disks... lotsa disks |
| 20:10.46 | spldart | last I saw him he was talking about his car rental... dunno if that's the last time he was on though.. dunno when he's gonna be back |
| 20:18.25 | DTRemenak | SpazzyMcGee: he will be back tomorrow |
| 20:18.39 | SpazzyMcGee | ok, thanks |
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| 20:48.32 | *** join/#bzflag Tupone (n=Tupone@pdpc/supporter/active/Tupone) |
| 20:48.32 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v Tupone] by ChanServ |
| 21:09.56 | *** join/#bzflag A-Delusion (n=A-Delusi@pool-151-201-122-253.pitt.east.verizon.net) |
| 21:11.20 | *** join/#bzflag treadbaron (n=507e2ce5@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 21:12.28 | treadbaron | hi peeps, anyone know anything about bz and p2p? |
| 21:13.15 | treadbaron | nwhat about realtime map manipulation? |
| 21:21.18 | *** join/#bzflag bz81 (n=44aebff8@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 21:26.06 | bz81 | just installed bzflag and its running super slow. taking a second or two just to switch menu items. doubt it's my machine or video card. |
| 21:26.36 | Tupone | what OS? |
| 21:26.40 | bz81 | win xp |
| 21:26.46 | bz81 | card is MSI Radeon XPRESS 200 Series |
| 21:27.14 | bz81 | machine is emachines with athlon 3500+ 2.19ghz 986mb RAM |
| 21:27.19 | bz81 | 896MB RAM |
| 21:27.28 | bz81 | XP Media Center Edition SP 2 |
| 21:28.01 | ts | Make sure you have installed the correct video driver |
| 21:28.26 | Tupone | when bzflag open, it should say something like OpenGL Driver: .... something |
| 21:28.39 | Tupone | what does actually say? |
| 21:30.35 | bz81 | it does say Open GL Driver followed by the name of the card |
| 21:33.12 | Tupone | well, i'm the last person to ask about M$ . Maybe the routine answer would be reinstall the video driver, taking the one from the MSI Radeon web site |
| 21:33.30 | bz81 | "Open GL Driver: RADEON XPRESS 200 Series SW TCL x86/MMX/3DNow!/SSE2 |
| 21:33.34 | bz81 | " |
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| 22:03.21 | *** join/#bzflag A_Heart_Attack (n=A_Heart_@unaffiliated/aheartattack/x-000001) |
| 22:12.22 | *** join/#bzflag treadbaron (n=507e2ce5@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 22:13.15 | treadbaron | so any devs in the house? |
| 22:13.39 | treadbaron | dt u around? |
| 22:14.04 | treadbaron | trepan? |
| 22:14.41 | treadbaron | hmmmm |
| 22:18.25 | *** join/#bzflag Flash (n=jwmelto@c-24-9-8-185.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 22:20.08 | trepan | what? |
| 22:20.37 | treadbaron | ah life, i want to know if there has been any thought to bz and p2p |
| 22:20.59 | CBG | o.O |
| 22:21.16 | trepan | mesh topo? make bad things worst? |
| 22:21.16 | treadbaron | is there any potential advantage to making all players peers? |
| 22:21.45 | inchworm | treadbaron: firewalls |
| 22:22.21 | inchworm | treadbaron: not a plus :) |
| 22:22.21 | trepan | bad idea for bz, period. |
| 22:22.22 | treadbaron | why should it affect meshes, i mean simply transfer of info across peer network |
| 22:22.25 | trepan | ip visibility, "game state" management, etc... |
| 22:23.09 | treadbaron | so u think there is no effeciency to be gained? |
| 22:23.09 | trepan | treadbaron: mesh topology/network, p2p, whatever (not map meshes) |
| 22:23.17 | treadbaron | ah |
| 22:23.41 | treadbaron | so no part of distribution could be handled as peer? |
| 22:24.13 | treadbaron | i think of opencroquet which is 3D enviiron. which utilizes p2p |
| 22:24.36 | treadbaron | so my thought is why not bz? |
| 22:25.13 | Flash | treadbaron: technology should not be embraced for its own sake |
| 22:25.19 | treadbaron | is p2p not fast enough? or is it too weak re security? |
| 22:25.24 | Flash | but rather because it solves some particular need |
| 22:25.49 | Flash | there would need to be a compelling reason to change bzflag from client/server to p2p |
| 22:25.51 | treadbaron | the need is to transfer info to as many peers as fast as possible, p2p does this |
| 22:26.14 | Flash | not as fast as possible, but fast enough |
| 22:26.42 | trepan | treadbaron: write the code, try it out, get back to us with your results |
| 22:26.48 | treadbaron | right so if opencroquet can take advantage of this why not bz? |
| 22:27.02 | treadbaron | thanx trepan hehe |
| 22:27.34 | treadbaron | so if i pose a question and ask an opinion it means that i must be a programmer and solve my own problems |
| 22:27.57 | treadbaron | ? |
| 22:27.59 | trepan | the devs are not going to be doing it |
| 22:28.35 | treadbaron | and the opiion of the devs is that they think there is no advantage to be gained? |
| 22:28.52 | trepan | none to outweight the disadvantages already mentionned |
| 22:28.58 | treadbaron | ah i c |
| 22:29.21 | Flash | if you aren't a programmer, then why do you think p2p is good/better? |
| 22:29.39 | treadbaron | nok diff question. What possibilities exist to change bz map space dynamically/interactively? |
| 22:29.42 | Flash | buzz-word-itis is a real problem in software development |
| 22:29.54 | treadbaron | i am involved w p2p broadcasting |
| 22:30.03 | trepan | treadbaron: dyn. maps could be done, find someone to do it |
| 22:30.14 | trepan | (do it = write it) |
| 22:30.18 | treadbaron | it is y i am asking here |
| 22:30.19 | Tupone | Well, I'm thinking about -solo bot. They have to be redone |
| 22:30.48 | trepan | Tupone: it's a moot point :) |
| 22:30.48 | treadbaron | i may have even found someone but i am looking for a little guidance |
| 22:30.59 | L4m3r | Tupone: aren't there already server side bots via plugin in 2.1? |
| 22:32.12 | treadbaron | p2p broadcasting is setup so that the greater number of peers there are the more people can watch same media together |
| 22:32.21 | *** join/#bzflag Theme97 (n=Theme97@about/essy/phpwriter/Theme97) |
| 22:32.22 | Tupone | L4m3r: nope, I don't think so. Programming has started, "badly" in my opinion, but I don't think it has been finished |
| 22:33.33 | treadbaron | much data has to be transferred but it is shared so isnt there some way to make this useful to bz? |
| 22:33.55 | trepan | treadbaron: give it up |
| 22:33.55 | treadbaron | or is bz already optimized? |
| 22:34.13 | treadbaron | give up asking questions? |
| 22:34.28 | trepan | trying to get p2p into the bz net protocol ;) |
| 22:35.41 | Flash | with an open source client, it's too easy to cheat in a p2p model |
| 22:35.54 | treadbaron | yes i understand that |
| 22:36.02 | Flash | that's why more of the logic is moving INTO the server |
| 22:36.59 | treadbaron | but i was simply trying to discern if transfer would be more efficient and i still dont know but maybe u dont know either and u would need to try it to be sure |
| 22:37.36 | treadbaron | and of course u are unwilling because it would take too much time, be too risky etc. |
| 22:37.43 | Flash | treadbaron: p2p is beneficial if you have large amounts of data and can parallelize the transmission |
| 22:37.46 | Tupone | treadbaron: I was trying to make the protocol able to support some kind of proxy/cache, so i can relay traffics. Maybe useful on getting a club with lot of local players, playing together with some server outside the club. Maybe it can go near your desire. But it is not p2p |
| 22:38.27 | trepan | treadbaron: it is not worth trying, we already know that it is a bad choice |
| 22:38.28 | Flash | bzflag requires exchanging game state information, not large chunks of shared data |
| 22:38.45 | treadbaron | sure i was thinking especially if u wanted to address hundreds of players at the same time |
| 22:39.28 | treadbaron | traditional p2p is large chunks of data but streaming isnt |
| 22:39.59 | treadbaron | streaming needs to be real time and to transfer max amt data possible |
| 22:40.47 | Tupone | if you can cluster it, maybe you can, with my way, at cost of some delay |
| 22:41.09 | Flash | actually, the amount of data transfered is fairly small |
| 22:41.17 | treadbaron | i am working w people like vlc and actlab in texas to try to sort out how to take advantage of this technology |
| 22:41.44 | Flash | it is best to have a problem to apply a technology against |
| 22:41.54 | Flash | rather than have a technology in search of a problem |
| 22:42.08 | treadbaron | i guess i see bz as a possible platform base for creating a kind of opensource 2nd life |
| 22:42.18 | Flash | 2nd life? |
| 22:42.39 | biggeruniverse | hmm, I thought that bzflag *did* do p2p if everyone could talk udp to everyone else... |
| 22:42.45 | treadbaron | sure flash but there are plenty of problems that have been solved and could be solved with this tech. |
| 22:43.12 | biggeruniverse | if not, the server sends out a "no udp" message, and everyone switches to TCP |
| 22:43.27 | treadbaron | BU this is what i was wondering about too but the devs seem to be saying no |
| 22:43.40 | Flash | biggeruniverse: I could be wrong, but I don't think there is direct client-client communication in bzflag |
| 22:43.50 | biggeruniverse | I think there is |
| 22:43.53 | biggeruniverse | or was in 1.X |
| 22:44.08 | biggeruniverse | messages were sent direct and to server |
| 22:44.25 | biggeruniverse | anyway, treadbaron, it's not a good idea |
| 22:44.26 | treadbaron | u mean not to server |
| 22:44.46 | biggeruniverse | game messages do not take much bandwidth |
| 22:44.53 | treadbaron | BU plz explain how opencroquet is able to take advantage of it then? |
| 22:45.09 | biggeruniverse | lag will not be helped by sending the same messages numplayers-1 times |
| 22:45.24 | biggeruniverse | it's a slow game |
| 22:45.24 | treadbaron | opencroquet is a 3D interactive environ based on p2p |
| 22:45.42 | blast007 | I don't really see how p2p has any benefit |
| 22:45.47 | blast007 | for a game |
| 22:46.00 | treadbaron | what is a slow game? bz?! |
| 22:46.30 | treadbaron | blast p2p streaming alows for more data transferred faster |
| 22:46.42 | treadbaron | in real time |
| 22:46.48 | biggeruniverse | croquet is not realtime |
| 22:47.01 | treadbaron | it is |
| 22:47.19 | treadbaron | i mean as "realtime" as bz is |
| 22:47.43 | treadbaron | it is interactive realtime |
| 22:47.55 | Flash | treadbaron: the major data download is at startup from the server |
| 22:48.11 | Flash | conceptually, it could be done p2p, but there isn't much value to that |
| 22:48.27 | Flash | updating game state involves small amounts of data |
| 22:48.32 | treadbaron | u mean to get the info as to who are the peers? |
| 22:48.58 | Flash | no, the server provides the "world" to the players |
| 22:49.24 | treadbaron | right but flash imagine bz as a much mopre dynamic interactive environ. ot just for shootemup but for education etc |
| 22:49.42 | Flash | other environments might benefit, but that isn't bzflag |
| 22:49.43 | biggeruniverse | it's the same |
| 22:49.53 | biggeruniverse | go look up dead-reckoning |
| 22:50.07 | biggeruniverse | croquet is an even-driven, turn-based game |
| 22:50.15 | treadbaron | right but if all peers had their own world and only the changes were transferred via p2p then im guessing it should be more efficient |
| 22:50.35 | treadbaron | its not a game |
| 22:51.02 | treadbaron | opencroquet is an interactive 3d environment based on squeak/smalltalk |
| 22:53.01 | treadbaron | i guess what i am trying to say is that bz could benefit from expanding its horizons to become more than a game and opencroquet could provide the environment/model to do that in |
| 22:53.40 | treadbaron | it is a grand idea/dream but if realized copuld change the nature of how we interact |
| 22:54.05 | Flash | it's not necessarily a bad idea, but I think it is fundamentally a different game |
| 22:54.08 | treadbaron | np2p streaming is just around the corner. It is being implemented as we speak |
| 22:54.25 | inchworm | treadbaron: have you looked at saurbrauten/cube ? |
| 22:54.37 | treadbaron | Flash I am trying to make it more than a game but in smal stages |
| 22:54.53 | treadbaron | inchworm please elaborate |
| 22:55.19 | CBG | Anyone know exactly what I can do about this: File transfer terminated with error from libcurl 28 : Operation too slow. Less than 1024 bytes/sec transfered the last 10 seconds ? |
| 22:55.23 | treadbaron | dont know sauerbraten/cube |
| 22:55.45 | inchworm | treadbaron: sauerbraten.org see the second paragraph |
| 22:57.21 | *** join/#bzflag SpazzyMcGee (n=SpazzyMc@fordend.demon.co.uk) |
| 22:58.01 | treadbaron | inch, that looks very cool but im guessing it isnt p2p |
| 22:58.11 | *** join/#bzflag L4m3r (n=l4m3r@pool-71-118-51-14.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) |
| 22:58.42 | Flash | treadbaron: what I'm saying is, it would be better to have an idea like "I want bzflag to be able to do ..." |
| 22:58.53 | Flash | then say "p2p will let me do ..." |
| 22:58.54 | treadbaron | dynamic play is just part of how one could use a 3D environ to educate or interact better |
| 22:59.03 | Flash | rather than say bzflag should use p2p |
| 22:59.44 | inchworm | treadbaron: i think the message you are supposed to be getting here is that p2p is a solution to a different problem than you have, unless you are expecting to be streaming video from inside the simulation |
| 22:59.51 | treadbaron | right, I want bzflag to be able to allow for dynamic map creation |
| 23:00.26 | treadbaron | i was also thinking that u could stream video inside a bz like environ |
| 23:00.35 | inchworm | treadbaron: in which case, leave the simulation engine as is and then have separate media streaming systems to targeted groups |
| 23:00.59 | *** join/#bzflag a_temp_dist (n=a_temp_d@63-228-50-59.mpls.qwest.net) |
| 23:01.06 | treadbaron | sounds plausible and then that part could be setup as p2p |
| 23:01.54 | treadbaron | imagine a video of george W you could shoot at |
| 23:02.44 | Flash | but for p2p to work, multiple clients would need copies of the video |
| 23:02.57 | Flash | or maybe I'm totally missing what you see as the benefit of p2p |
| 23:03.14 | inchworm | flash, video conference in game perhaps? |
| 23:03.20 | treadbaron | no for streaming they only need the piece that is being sent out at the moment |
| 23:03.31 | treadbaron | a 2 minute cache or so |
| 23:03.35 | inchworm | though that isn't what i think of as p2p |
| 23:03.52 | treadbaron | right that is what i am saying p2p is changing |
| 23:04.04 | treadbaron | p2p streaming is a new ballgame |
| 23:04.16 | treadbaron | same tech new possibilities |
| 23:04.18 | Flash | so the video originates at some source (let's assume the server) |
| 23:04.23 | treadbaron | yes |
| 23:04.41 | Flash | the distance between client b and client a is less than client b and the server |
| 23:05.04 | Flash | so client b wants the video from client a |
| 23:05.04 | treadbaron | yes |
| 23:05.30 | Flash | meaning that the lag between client b and the server is greater than the time to send a chunk to client a PLUS the lag from b to a |
| 23:06.19 | treadbaron | no because they are sending redundant chunks without the need to refer to the original server |
| 23:06.39 | short_circuit | ''''''`''''''' |
| 23:06.43 | Flash | it's only redundant if client a already has the video |
| 23:06.52 | short_circuit | <PROTECTED> |
| 23:07.02 | short_circuit | machine is wigging... bad mouse |
| 23:07.05 | treadbaron | in the end it is becoming a hybrid of server streaming and p2p streaming |
| 23:07.32 | treadbaron | nthey only need to have a small part of the video, ergo the 2 minute cache |
| 23:07.56 | blast007 | treadbaron: but usually the server is the one with the extra bandwidth for uploading |
| 23:08.07 | Flash | but the delay between a getting a chunk and b getting a chunk is up to 2 mins |
| 23:08.14 | blast007 | I don't see a point |
| 23:08.24 | blast007 | what would p2p give us that we can't do client-to-server? |
| 23:08.27 | treadbaron | true and this is why the hybrid makes the most sense unless you have so many peers that u can compensate |
| 23:08.56 | Flash | a bzflag game is not playable with 30 clients |
| 23:09.08 | treadbaron | it is the fact that the server doesnt need to do all the work, the multitude of clients do |
| 23:09.27 | blast007 | treadbaron: uh.....what? |
| 23:09.40 | Flash | that is the case for SETI@home, but not a real-time game |
| 23:09.41 | treadbaron | exactly but w p2p the more clients the stronger/faster the network |
| 23:09.43 | blast007 | the server doesn't do much of anything right now, CPU usage wise |
| 23:10.07 | blast007 | you can run bzfs on a Pentium 75MHz with 32MB of RAM |
| 23:10.14 | treadbaron | true but seti was not setup as p2p streaming it doesnt need to be |
| 23:10.25 | blast007 | treadbaron: you're just repeating yourself |
| 23:10.43 | blast007 | tell me exact reason why you thing P2P is a good idea for bzflag |
| 23:10.47 | blast007 | no more vague descriptions |
| 23:10.59 | blast007 | exact reasons* |
| 23:12.40 | treadbaron | p2p "streaming" allows for realtime HD video transfer (lots of data) if this could be incorporated into bz then the theory is that bz could take advantage of this to transfer more data, like video for instance |
| 23:12.49 | treadbaron | is this exact enough? |
| 23:12.54 | L4m3r | and that would help us, how? |
| 23:13.20 | L4m3r | I don't think there are any plans, ideas, or possible uses for video streaming in BZFlag |
| 23:13.26 | treadbaron | by allowing more simultaneous players, more different forms of interaction, |
| 23:14.19 | L4m3r | not to mentio, as Jeff puts it, "Never trust the client, EVER" |
| 23:14.28 | treadbaron | my point is that environments like 2nd are the future, why not expand the horizons of bz to see what is possible. This can be facilitated by incorporating new technologies like p2p |
| 23:14.31 | blast007 | so we're going to put BluRay video into the game? :P |
| 23:14.52 | L4m3r | using a P2P structure would allow clients to screw with data |
| 23:15.00 | treadbaron | yes i now |
| 23:15.04 | treadbaron | nknow |
| 23:15.04 | inchworm | treadbaron: bzflag as a game doesn't have a great use for video type bandwidth at this time. What you are pushing would make an interesting University level research program, not a fun game to waste a few minutes with (IMO) |
| 23:15.10 | trepan | is he still yapping? ;) |
| 23:15.20 | blast007 | trepan: yeah |
| 23:15.29 | Flash | treadbaron: this sounds like a good university research project, but I doubt an open source community like this will do random research |
| 23:15.38 | treadbaron | yapping???? grumble. |
| 23:15.50 | L4m3r | especially for a game that works fine as is... |
| 23:15.51 | blast007 | yeah, I'd classify it as yapping |
| 23:16.06 | blast007 | treadbaron: why would we stream video? |
| 23:16.08 | L4m3r | would you prefer squaking? |
| 23:16.11 | blast007 | a lot of the users are on 56k |
| 23:16.11 | treadbaron | sigh, i am trying to show you guys where the future is and u are berating me for it |
| 23:16.17 | Flash | squawking |
| 23:16.24 | L4m3r | close enough |
| 23:16.27 | Flash | ;-) |
| 23:16.34 | blast007 | treadbaron: the future of what? |
| 23:16.35 | L4m3r | not a word I use often,heh |
| 23:16.35 | inchworm | treadbaron: the future isn't bzflag, maybe a fork of bzflag, but not bzflag |
| 23:17.08 | L4m3r | yeah, the developers are still trying to pull BZFlag out of the stone age |
| 23:17.15 | blast007 | treadbaron: what streaming video would we be using? |
| 23:17.15 | treadbaron | why do you guys think 2nd Life is so popular, there have been 3D environments for a long time so why now? |
| 23:17.19 | L4m3r | they're not worried about the future just yet |
| 23:18.01 | treadbaron | they should be worried about the future, bz has something to offer but not if you cabnt see beyond the "game" part of it |
| 23:18.07 | blast007 | treadbaron: second life is totally different than bzflag |
| 23:18.17 | Flash | bzflag IS a game |
| 23:18.21 | L4m3r | ^^^ |
| 23:18.21 | blast007 | why are you trying to compare them? |
| 23:18.26 | Flash | it is NOT an environment |
| 23:18.38 | blast007 | that's like saying that halo is popular because people play solitare |
| 23:18.40 | treadbaron | "totally"??? you mean they arent even similar in the fact that they are both 3d? |
| 23:18.53 | blast007 | 3D doesn't makes things similar |
| 23:19.00 | blast007 | get real |
| 23:19.02 | treadbaron | it doesnt? |
| 23:19.08 | blast007 | uh, no |
| 23:19.13 | treadbaron | it does |
| 23:19.14 | blast007 | the world is 3D |
| 23:19.20 | blast007 | does that make it similar to bzflag? |
| 23:19.21 | treadbaron | 4D |
| 23:19.21 | blast007 | or halo? |
| 23:19.30 | L4m3r | Aero is 3D too, does that mean BZFlag needs DRM and a ton of bloat? hell no... |
| 23:19.31 | treadbaron | or 11D depending on who u ask |
| 23:19.53 | blast007 | treadbaron: you're just blowing hot air |
| 23:20.09 | treadbaron | please tell me why we shouldnt use bz as an interactive 3D environment |
| 23:20.18 | Theme97 | I blow hot and repulsive air in your general direction! |
| 23:20.30 | Flash | treadbaron: because the code is not suited to that purpose |
| 23:20.31 | trepan | treadbaron: why would you start with bz code? |
| 23:21.03 | treadbaron | because it has been streamlined over the years to create efficient transfer, am i wrong? |
| 23:21.08 | blast007 | haha |
| 23:21.13 | L4m3r | treadbaron: primarily because BZFlag uses an ancient engine |
| 23:21.33 | trepan | treadbaron: transfers rates are not the end-all be-all for online games (nor is latency) |
| 23:21.34 | blast007 | Flash: I do belive so |
| 23:21.42 | Flash | the transfer is not the significant part of the game |
| 23:21.44 | trepan | you've been sold an incomplete bill of goods |
| 23:21.45 | treadbaron | so bz is massively iefficient that is what you are telling me? |
| 23:21.51 | Flash | the major effort is in the graphics rendering |
| 23:22.41 | treadbaron | transfer rates are not the mostr important part of bz? |
| 23:22.50 | Flash | nope |
| 23:23.02 | trepan | the biggest problem with bz at the moment is state consistency |
| 23:23.24 | treadbaron | and that has nothing to do with transfer rates? |
| 23:23.28 | blast007 | no |
| 23:23.37 | L4m3r | treadbaron: bzflag is efficient in the way that a rally car is efficient |
| 23:23.46 | L4m3r | not incredibly powerful or fast, just light |
| 23:23.54 | Flash | or sturdy ;-) |
| 23:24.27 | L4m3r | BZFlag is quick enough, but lacks all the "creature comforts" to do whatever you are thinking of |
| 23:24.38 | L4m3r | and adding those things would just bog it down |
| 23:25.41 | treadbaron | but if bogging it down could be alleviated by using p2p and the bogging means that there is a whiole world that opens up then isnt that worth looking into? |
| 23:25.54 | trepan | it's like talking to an infomercial |
| 23:25.59 | blast007 | lol |
| 23:26.00 | treadbaron | blast give it a rest |
| 23:26.22 | blast007 | "act now and get a free P2P teeshirt!" |
| 23:26.29 | Flash | I deal with this kind of disinformation at work all the time |
| 23:26.32 | *** join/#bzflag BenUrban (n=benurban@unaffiliated/benurban) |
| 23:26.32 | treadbaron | its like talking to those who have already made up their minds |
| 23:26.34 | inchworm | treadbaron: we have gone full circle, bzflag isn't the droid you are looking for |
| 23:26.36 | L4m3r | treadbaron: yes, but then you end up with a Formula 1 car, which is unfit for rally racing. ;) |
| 23:26.42 | Flash | "CORBA is dead... why do you still use CORBA?" |
| 23:27.00 | Flash | "Everything needs to be SOA" |
| 23:27.13 | treadbaron | suire but if u never had a formula one car then it is worth doing snt it? |
| 23:27.30 | L4m3r | not if your player base is made up of rally drivers |
| 23:27.32 | L4m3r | ;) |
| 23:27.33 | Flash | I don't want a formula 1 car for commuting |
| 23:28.25 | treadbaron | sigh the point I am trying to make is that bz seems fit to be able to do more but u like the turf you have and dont want it to go antywhere else |
| 23:28.40 | L4m3r | yeah, we do like the turf, and so do the players |
| 23:28.45 | trepan | treadbaron: that's because you don't know the code |
| 23:28.49 | treadbaron | i was hoping to find visionaries |
| 23:28.50 | L4m3r | if they wanted second life, they'd be playing it |
| 23:29.10 | trepan | treadbaron: ask the opencrocket folks to add bz to their world ;) |
| 23:29.24 | treadbaron | i have been working on that too |
| 23:29.41 | blast007 | treadbaron: the asking part, or the adding part? |
| 23:29.50 | treadbaron | i managed to get david snmith to take a look but he still thinks like you back in the stone age |
| 23:30.19 | L4m3r | we are |
| 23:30.25 | treadbaron | i think at the very least the bz interface is supreme in its simplicity and should be adapted |
| 23:30.37 | L4m3r | then adapt it |
| 23:30.46 | L4m3r | no one is stopping you ;) |
| 23:31.30 | treadbaron | except that pencroquet is another hard sell because people are all so comfortable w C and C++ no one wants to look at SmallTalk/Squeak etc |
| 23:32.02 | treadbaron | Who are the visionaries here who want bz to do more than just be a game? |
| 23:32.13 | treadbaron | anyone? |
| 23:32.24 | treadbaron | complacency is the norm? |
| 23:32.25 | blast007 | *crickets chirp* |
| 23:32.28 | trepan | who's full of hot air, and won't contribute a single line of code? |
| 23:32.29 | treadbaron | hehe |
| 23:32.45 | treadbaron | im not a programmer as i have said many times |
| 23:32.51 | blast007 | hehe |
| 23:33.06 | trepan | then realize that you may not know what you are talking about |
| 23:33.14 | treadbaron | that dfosnt mean i cant help to inspire and connect those who are |
| 23:33.32 | Flash | but at the moment you are working from disinformation |
| 23:33.37 | treadbaron | i realize that there are many possibilities |
| 23:34.06 | treadbaron | and when i come looking for forward thinking individuals i get laughs |
| 23:34.25 | Flash | treadbaron: you came to the bzflag development forum |
| 23:34.35 | Flash | people here are focused on bzflag development |
| 23:34.42 | Flash | not visionary thinking |
| 23:34.43 | L4m3r | and bzflag is a GAME. |
| 23:34.51 | L4m3r | they're interested in developing it as such |
| 23:35.03 | treadbaron | right isnt that where i should look for programmers who can think laterally? |
| 23:35.38 | Flash | I do development for a living; the first thing to look for are the requirements |
| 23:35.44 | Flash | what does it need to do? |
| 23:35.50 | treadbaron | plz tell me where else in the bz world i could look to find someone who has some facility and would like to discuss alternative concepts? |
| 23:35.52 | Flash | NOT what technology do you want to use |
| 23:36.07 | Flash | why would you start in the bz world? |
| 23:36.11 | treadbaron | i understand that Flash |
| 23:36.15 | Flash | why not the halo world? |
| 23:36.58 | treadbaron | My impression is that bz's strength is its simplicity and it is therefore very efficient. Is this wrong? |
| 23:37.33 | Flash | it is actually somewhat complex |
| 23:37.46 | mebigfatguy | bz's strength is 'easy to play, hard to master' |
| 23:37.55 | L4m3r | so you want to take a simple lightweight game and add a ton of pork to it? |
| 23:37.57 | treadbaron | nnot the game play |
| 23:38.04 | treadbaron | nthe environmet |
| 23:38.48 | treadbaron | Lamer, it is not pork if it opens up new worlds |
| 23:38.57 | treadbaron | new possibilities |
| 23:39.07 | trepan | heh, the environment is crap; i should know, i wrote a lot of it |
| 23:39.18 | treadbaron | lol |
| 23:39.33 | mebigfatguy | there isn't much strength in the architecture |
| 23:39.55 | trepan | (or wrote around a lot of it, as the case may be) |
| 23:40.25 | treadbaron | trepan do you know opencroquet? |
| 23:40.40 | treadbaron | have you ever programmed in SmallTalk? |
| 23:40.47 | treadbaron | Squeak? |
| 23:40.53 | mebigfatguy | wow a game in smalltalk |
| 23:41.04 | mebigfatguy | that is special |
| 23:41.05 | trepan | treadbaron: i'm already working for a couple of other games |
| 23:41.07 | treadbaron | why not? |
| 23:41.33 | treadbaron | im not offering you a job I was just curious if you ever ghad? |
| 23:43.12 | treadbaron | guess that means no |
| 23:44.07 | treadbaron | i do find it cyrious that you creators of bz have so little faith in your own work |
| 23:44.21 | trepan | that's because you don't know anything |
| 23:44.32 | treadbaron | and u know everything |
| 23:44.41 | trepan | a hell of a lot more then you about bz |
| 23:44.57 | treadbaron | im not only talking about bz |
| 23:45.12 | trepan | "you creators of bz have so little faith in your own work" -- not bz specific? |
| 23:45.35 | Manu | opencroquet again treadbaron ? :) |
| 23:45.35 | treadbaron | i do find it cyrious that you creators of bz have so little faith in your own work to be anything more than simply a game |
| 23:45.52 | PuMpErNiCkEl | It is a game. |
| 23:46.04 | mebigfatguy | well, it is no one's 'own work' |
| 23:46.08 | mebigfatguy | the code is over 12 years old |
| 23:46.23 | mebigfatguy | and so a huge body of it was there before many came along |
| 23:46.23 | treadbaron | yeah manu, i am throwing out some lateral ideas but they'd rather bite my hand han consider anything else |
| 23:47.05 | mebigfatguy | your welcome to throw out suggestions. |
| 23:47.14 | mebigfatguy | just sounds like no one is particularly interested |
| 23:47.21 | mebigfatguy | which is the domain of os dev |
| 23:47.26 | treadbaron | i was sort of hoping for some inspired discussion rather than flames but that doesnt seem to be in the cards |
| 23:47.32 | CBG | treadbaron: what exactly is your suggestion? |
| 23:48.04 | Flash | you haven't gotten (many) flames; but we are skeptical and you have little to offer us |
| 23:48.05 | treadbaron | Right or Wrong, I think bz could be something more than simply a shootem up game |
| 23:48.14 | CBG | It is more. |
| 23:48.37 | treadbaron | For most it is not |
| 23:48.39 | CBG | It's a 3D, online, multiplayer tank game. |
| 23:48.41 | trepan | it could be an office suite, if only we had the right visionary to lead us |
| 23:48.48 | inchworm | hehe |
| 23:48.50 | treadbaron | lol |
| 23:48.53 | Flash | Microsoft, watch out! |
| 23:48.55 | CBG | You can talk to others, you can jump, there are a variety of weapons. |
| 23:49.00 | treadbaron | harhar |
| 23:49.03 | mebigfatguy | simplisty is probably the strongest draw of bzflag |
| 23:49.06 | CBG | What more do you want from a "Tank Game" ? |
| 23:49.13 | mebigfatguy | if you want more, there are many better platforms to build it on |
| 23:49.29 | mebigfatguy | i wouldn't recommend using bz as the platform of some grander scale thing |
| 23:49.32 | treadbaron | ah so simplicity IS a recognizable element |
| 23:49.39 | mebigfatguy | without question |
| 23:49.57 | treadbaron | meta what is a better platform? |
| 23:50.13 | mebigfatguy | something developed this century as a starter |
| 23:50.16 | *** join/#bzflag AAA_awright (n=chatzill@wsip-68-14-251-102.ph.ph.cox.net) |
| 23:50.18 | treadbaron | what platform is simpler than bz? |
| 23:50.27 | mebigfatguy | there are plenty of open source graphics game apis one could use |
| 23:50.39 | treadbaron | that are simpler? |
| 23:50.43 | mebigfatguy | not a propriertary one of dubious worth |
| 23:50.57 | treadbaron | ok, plz tell me |
| 23:51.08 | mebigfatguy | simpler, stabler, more efficient, more supported, etc, etc. |
| 23:51.27 | treadbaron | if you were going to create an opensource 2nd life where would you begin? |
| 23:51.37 | CBG | nnot with bz. |
| 23:51.51 | mebigfatguy | google is your friend |
| 23:51.52 | treadbaron | ah the classic "not" annswer |
| 23:52.01 | mebigfatguy | anything you find, would probably be a better one :) |
| 23:52.21 | treadbaron | google has been my friend for a long time that still isnt an answer |
| 23:52.24 | CBG | treadbaron: there are better options |
| 23:52.35 | treadbaron | ellucidate |
| 23:52.37 | CBG | bz's codebase is old and very messy |
| 23:52.45 | inchworm | treadbaron: openscenegraph with some sort of network code, since you are doing p2p you would need to research that |
| 23:53.09 | treadbaron | the p2p part i can sort out |
| 23:53.37 | inchworm | treadbaron: exactly, so there is a graphics api that has support in the industry and you can do the networking, have fun |
| 23:54.01 | treadbaron | so what i hear from you guys is that if you were going to recreate bz npw you would use a diff platform, right? |
| 23:54.10 | mebigfatguy | absolutely |
| 23:54.18 | CBG | That's not really what we said. |
| 23:54.23 | trepan | treadbaron: head on over to: http://www.devmaster.net/engines/ |
| 23:54.31 | CBG | We answered your question about an opensource 2nd life... |
| 23:54.33 | mebigfatguy | i think every couple of weeks someone stomps off promising to come back with a BZFlag++ version based on some open standard |
| 23:54.38 | mebigfatguy | but usually give up trying |
| 23:55.01 | treadbaron | i dont stomp |
| 23:56.06 | treadbaron | I do actually appreciate this discussion and you have answered a bunch of my questions |
| 23:56.35 | treadbaron | Perhaps I am misguided to expect bz to be something more than it is |
| 23:57.06 | mebigfatguy | a common mistake |
| 23:57.37 | treadbaron | but in many ways it is already more than a simple 3d game |
| 23:57.52 | CBG | I repeat: What more do you want from a "Tank Game" ? :) |
| 23:58.30 | treadbaron | To me the idea of how to recreate/create a believable 3D space that can be used simply is addressed in bz |
| 23:58.51 | mebigfatguy | from the look of opencroquet, more of an 'adventure' feel |
| 23:59.08 | treadbaron | no more of an interactive feel |
| 23:59.25 | *** join/#bzflag L4m3r_ (n=l4m3r@pool-71-118-51-14.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) |
| 23:59.49 | treadbaron | the guys at opencroquet also have it wrong they have created an environ that has a very counterintuitive interface |