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| 00:35.00 | Skeeve | JeffM2501: You remember your suggestion putting the scaling before the ballistic stuff.. well... in 2.1 it has to be done after the ballistic |
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| 00:48.32 | JeffM2501 | Skeeve, ok what ever works |
| 00:48.35 | JeffM2501 | 2.1 is very difrent |
| 00:52.39 | Skeeve | I submitted my patch |
| 00:53.02 | JeffM2501 | cool, contrats |
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| 03:41.54 | raf | omg theres a bzflag chatroom |
| 03:42.00 | raf | !! |
| 03:42.14 | purple_cow | calm down |
| 03:42.18 | raf | lol |
| 03:42.29 | raf | why wasnt i informed of this |
| 03:43.00 | wegstar | umm |
| 03:43.22 | raf | i wonder how many of u i played |
| 03:43.45 | purple_cow | use real words |
| 03:43.49 | purple_cow | "you" is just two more letters |
| 03:43.50 | wegstar | they're probably on right now... why don't you go try ;) |
| 03:44.27 | raf | i cant play while i have torrents goin |
| 03:44.39 | wegstar | ah.. the lag ;) |
| 03:44.46 | raf | mhm |
| 03:46.53 | raf | is bzflag linux only |
| 03:47.02 | blast007 | nope |
| 03:47.10 | raf | i see |
| 03:47.14 | blast007 | windows, linux, and Mac OS are the main ones |
| 03:47.25 | blast007 | it's also for a few others |
| 03:47.31 | raf | cool |
| 03:49.13 | JeffM2501 | oh my |
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| 04:25.52 | SportChick | JeffM2501: I have a suggestion |
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| 05:11.06 | *** topic/#bzflag is http://BZFlag.org/ || http://cia.navi.cx/stats/project/BZFlag || http://BZFlag.org/wiki/GettingHelp || paste to http://bzflag.pastebin.ca || CVS HEAD is 2.1 UNSTABLE, use for new commits || 2.0.8 is released react acordingly |
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| 15:41.45 | Tanner | Brlcad, do you have a moment? |
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| 15:46.23 | Tanner | Guess not. : |
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| 16:26.26 | JeffM2501 | DTRemenak, congrats |
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| 16:29.45 | SpazzyMcGee | hi |
| 16:29.48 | SpazzyMcGee | i have a problem |
| 16:31.06 | SpazzyMcGee | i have exported a mesh from wings, but if i apply a shift transformation in a group to it, some of the faces don't get drawn |
| 16:31.38 | SpazzyMcGee | if i leave it at 0 0 0 all the faces appear intact |
| 16:31.57 | SpazzyMcGee | so it's not dodgy exporting |
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| 16:33.18 | JeffM2501 | the faces that do not draw, do they have more then 3 verts? |
| 16:33.33 | SpazzyMcGee | probably |
| 16:33.48 | SpazzyMcGee | i'll check |
| 16:34.46 | SpazzyMcGee | yes, 4 |
| 16:35.06 | JeffM2501 | they may be going non planar |
| 16:35.19 | JeffM2501 | try making the model into triangles ( should be a function in wings to do that ) |
| 16:35.42 | SpazzyMcGee | there is a triangulation option in Wings BZW exporter |
| 16:35.50 | JeffM2501 | use it :) |
| 16:35.51 | SpazzyMcGee | i will try that thanks |
| 16:35.56 | JeffM2501 | triangles are always good |
| 16:36.01 | SpazzyMcGee | what causes it? |
| 16:36.14 | JeffM2501 | posibly floating point inacuracy after the transformation |
| 16:36.17 | JeffM2501 | hard to say |
| 16:36.37 | JeffM2501 | but after the transform the points may not lie in the same plane any more and become invalid |
| 16:36.41 | JeffM2501 | I'm just guessin tho |
| 16:36.50 | SpazzyMcGee | argh this is going to dramatically increase poly count |
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| 16:38.15 | JeffM2501 | not realy |
| 16:38.25 | JeffM2501 | GL has to convert them to triangles anway |
| 16:38.28 | trepan | recent bzfs' triangulate as required |
| 16:38.32 | JeffM2501 | so your just seeing the REAL triangle count |
| 16:38.37 | JeffM2501 | yeah I know recents do |
| 16:38.41 | SpazzyMcGee | ah ok |
| 16:38.44 | SpazzyMcGee | that's good |
| 16:38.45 | JeffM2501 | was thinking he may not be recent |
| 16:38.52 | SpazzyMcGee | 2.0.8 |
| 16:39.02 | trepan | recent enough |
| 16:39.05 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 16:39.16 | JeffM2501 | maybe it's planar before transform, but not after |
| 16:39.22 | JeffM2501 | tho it's not like GL can't draw a non planar |
| 16:39.54 | SpazzyMcGee | ok... run |
| 16:40.00 | trepan | triangle count isn't just a GL thing, affects coldet too |
| 16:40.06 | JeffM2501 | true |
| 16:40.32 | SpazzyMcGee | yes. it's good |
| 16:40.44 | JeffM2501 | wierd then |
| 16:40.49 | spldart | Wow... I had the same problem when I did my last map |
| 16:41.02 | SpazzyMcGee | triangulate! |
| 16:41.09 | spldart | I simplified my model and it worked fine |
| 16:41.14 | JeffM2501 | wonder why it didn't triangluate for you in the first place |
| 16:41.23 | JeffM2501 | unless you got some wierd degenerates |
| 16:42.20 | SpazzyMcGee | i dunno. bzfs diddn't spit anything back at me |
| 16:42.38 | JeffM2501 | well if it works it works |
| 16:42.38 | spldart | mine didn't either... but had random missing faces |
| 16:42.39 | trepan | -d's? |
| 16:42.53 | spldart | oops.. I only had one -d |
| 16:42.58 | SpazzyMcGee | ah goof point |
| 16:42.59 | spldart | You Spazzzy? |
| 16:43.05 | SpazzyMcGee | on -d |
| 16:43.09 | SpazzyMcGee | *one -d |
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| 16:54.41 | SpazzyMcGee | can zones go in groups? |
| 16:56.08 | trepan | no |
| 16:56.47 | spldart | is there a definitive work on map language? |
| 16:56.59 | trepan | ~bzw |
| 16:57.01 | ibot | i heard bzw is http://my.bzflag.org/bzfman.cgi?bzw.5s |
| 16:57.02 | SpazzyMcGee | man |
| 16:57.23 | SpazzyMcGee | or the mapmaking wiki |
| 16:58.49 | spldart | kew |
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| 17:14.32 | Luke-Jr | is there a market for bzflag server hosting? |
| 17:15.01 | JeffM2501 | a couple people have tried it, they have failed horibly |
| 17:15.13 | Luke-Jr | o |
| 17:15.17 | JeffM2501 | your average person who wants to host a server is 14 and has little income |
| 17:15.30 | JeffM2501 | but there may be |
| 17:15.45 | JeffM2501 | the people who tried didn't realy go about it in a profesional manner IMHO |
| 17:15.59 | Luke-Jr | in what sense? |
| 17:16.17 | JeffM2501 | didn't have formal service contracts |
| 17:16.40 | Luke-Jr | currently, I'm just hosting Armagetron servers, but I have a web admin interface for it |
| 17:16.40 | JeffM2501 | and just handled it in a very poor manner |
| 17:16.40 | Mr_Molez | they couldn't even decide on pricing :P |
| 17:16.40 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 17:16.40 | Luke-Jr | heh |
| 17:16.52 | JeffM2501 | also bzfs dosn't have a web interface |
| 17:16.57 | JeffM2501 | it realy wants shell access |
| 17:16.59 | Luke-Jr | neither did Arma =p |
| 17:17.07 | JeffM2501 | it's also hard to lock them down to ports and stuff |
| 17:17.16 | Mr_Molez | just ask some server owners they may give you one for free :P |
| 17:17.22 | JeffM2501 | the other people were not willing to do the work to get it locked own |
| 17:17.28 | Luke-Jr | ah |
| 17:17.34 | Luke-Jr | JeffM2501: why lock it down? |
| 17:17.59 | Luke-Jr | what do I care which ports they use? =p |
| 17:18.19 | Mr_Molez | Luke-Jr: server owners will care, not the customer |
| 17:18.21 | JeffM2501 | depends on how you charge |
| 17:18.46 | Luke-Jr | Mr_Molez: bzflag has a server list to hide IP/port, I'd assume? |
| 17:18.48 | JeffM2501 | if you charge per game, then if you don't prevent them from using just one port, they run more then one |
| 17:18.57 | JeffM2501 | yes we have a server list |
| 17:19.07 | JeffM2501 | but if you host more then one game off a server they have to use difrent ports |
| 17:19.13 | Luke-Jr | JeffM2501: for Armagetron, I'm charging per player slot |
| 17:19.15 | JeffM2501 | tho our list shows the hostname and port |
| 17:19.27 | JeffM2501 | that is also something you'd have to lock down |
| 17:19.44 | JeffM2501 | or users would run configs with more allowed users |
| 17:19.55 | JeffM2501 | to do it right, you'd want a web interface that generated the config and started the server |
| 17:19.57 | Luke-Jr | since it's a config option, that's simple |
| 17:20.04 | JeffM2501 | that's the work the others didn't want to do. |
| 17:20.13 | Luke-Jr | the config is hard to generate? |
| 17:20.13 | JeffM2501 | if your willing to do it, it may work out well for you |
| 17:20.17 | JeffM2501 | not realy |
| 17:20.34 | Mr_Molez | would also need a way to view logs i would imagine |
| 17:20.40 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 17:20.44 | JeffM2501 | logs |
| 17:20.48 | Luke-Jr | sounds like most of my Arma web interface would work with it well |
| 17:20.50 | JeffM2501 | have access to the groups file |
| 17:21.08 | Luke-Jr | it's more or less a page with Start/Stop/Restart button, a text editor for the config files, and a log view |
| 17:21.34 | JeffM2501 | you'd need a little more |
| 17:21.41 | JeffM2501 | there is a groups file that they'd need to edit |
| 17:21.42 | Luke-Jr | my patch for the game itself removes the player slot config option, and sets the internal value based on my service definition |
| 17:21.50 | JeffM2501 | ahh |
| 17:21.54 | JeffM2501 | you mod the server |
| 17:21.58 | JeffM2501 | that would make it a lot easyer |
| 17:22.13 | Luke-Jr | just a small patch, but yes |
| 17:22.32 | Luke-Jr | it also removes the options for DoS protection (it's forced enabled) and bandwidth usage, etc |
| 17:22.45 | JeffM2501 | we have no options for those |
| 17:23.19 | Luke-Jr | Armagetron is *very* picky about latency, so I imagine it's probably the only game concerned with DoS issues |
| 17:23.43 | JeffM2501 | lag affects our gamestate a lot as well |
| 17:23.43 | Luke-Jr | eg, over 100 ms and stuff gets pretty noticable |
| 17:23.48 | JeffM2501 | same here |
| 17:23.55 | Luke-Jr | ah |
| 17:24.06 | JeffM2501 | all our logic is done client side, and there is no lag compensation |
| 17:24.09 | Luke-Jr | my main selling point with Arma servers is low-pings ;p |
| 17:26.37 | Luke-Jr | does bzflag need GL? |
| 17:26.43 | JeffM2501 | the client, yes |
| 17:26.48 | Luke-Jr | aww |
| 17:26.53 | JeffM2501 | it is a 3d game |
| 17:27.24 | JeffM2501 | if you don't have a 3d card it will run rather slow as well |
| 17:27.33 | Luke-Jr | games-action/bzflag-2.0.4.20050930-r1 recent? |
| 17:27.38 | Luke-Jr | I do, but it's disabled on :0 |
| 17:27.39 | JeffM2501 | no |
| 17:27.46 | JeffM2501 | last release is 2.0.8 |
| 17:28.05 | JeffM2501 | we have a source tarball on SF |
| 17:28.28 | Luke-Jr | 2.0.8 is ~amd64 |
| 17:28.43 | a_meteorite | there's also a pre-compiled oblisk package, but it's not officially supported |
| 17:28.55 | JeffM2501 | 2.0.8 will run on any platform |
| 17:29.05 | Luke-Jr | JeffM2501: the ~ meaning unstable |
| 17:29.09 | Luke-Jr | in Gentoo-language |
| 17:29.12 | JeffM2501 | ahh |
| 17:29.58 | a_meteorite | Luke-Jr: assuming you have Linux experience, compiling bzflag wouldn't be that hard |
| 17:30.12 | Luke-Jr | is Svn/CVS kept stable? |
| 17:30.25 | Luke-Jr | a_meteorite: I like to use ebuilds on my home systems, tho |
| 17:30.26 | JeffM2501 | the 2_0 branch is |
| 17:30.34 | JeffM2501 | the head is our developmnet |
| 17:30.36 | a_meteorite | the 2.1 branch is definitely not |
| 17:30.38 | JeffM2501 | and incompatable with 2.0.x |
| 17:30.40 | a_meteorite | yeah, head |
| 17:30.49 | Luke-Jr | incompatible :o |
| 17:31.01 | JeffM2501 | yeah we brak protcoll on minor version changes |
| 17:31.06 | JeffM2501 | to force upgrades |
| 17:31.12 | Luke-Jr | wow, players tolerate that? =p |
| 17:31.13 | JeffM2501 | and to add more stuff |
| 17:31.16 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 17:31.24 | JeffM2501 | they don't realy have a choice |
| 17:31.28 | Luke-Jr | hehe |
| 17:31.36 | JeffM2501 | for us to add new stuff we have to change the protocoll |
| 17:31.40 | a_meteorite | Luke-Jr: it would be quite impossible to add some things without a protocol change |
| 17:31.43 | Luke-Jr | Armagetron has been compatible since version 0.2.0 (now at 0.3.0) |
| 17:31.58 | JeffM2501 | bzflag is a "little" older |
| 17:32.02 | Luke-Jr | the protocol changes, but compatibility is preserved with old versions |
| 17:32.13 | JeffM2501 | our proto changes also change game logic |
| 17:32.20 | JeffM2501 | so we can't have old clients running in new games |
| 17:32.25 | JeffM2501 | as they would behave difrently |
| 17:32.31 | Luke-Jr | JeffM2501: older than 2000? =p |
| 17:32.36 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 17:32.39 | JeffM2501 | 1993 |
| 17:32.44 | Luke-Jr | well, our logic is all configurable |
| 17:32.49 | Luke-Jr | any changes are just new options |
| 17:32.50 | JeffM2501 | it's also a lot more complex |
| 17:33.04 | JeffM2501 | more then just drive around ;) |
| 17:33.19 | JeffM2501 | we add new flags, and stuff |
| 17:33.29 | Luke-Jr | you haven't played Arma recently ;p |
| 17:33.31 | JeffM2501 | so the old clients wouldnt' have the logic to handle those new flags |
| 17:33.32 | *** join/#bzflag Theme97_ (n=Theme97@adsl-67-126-140-137.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net) |
| 17:33.41 | JeffM2501 | I looked at it about 3 months ago |
| 17:33.51 | Luke-Jr | there's a recent mod that makes it a soccer game |
| 17:33.58 | JeffM2501 | ok |
| 17:34.10 | Luke-Jr | supported by most recent versions of the client ;) |
| 17:34.18 | Luke-Jr | it's all server-side |
| 17:34.27 | a_meteorite | and what happens when the client doesn't support it? :\ |
| 17:34.28 | JeffM2501 | it's good that you can keep compatability, tho I'm sure at some point you'll find a thing you can't do with out a break |
| 17:34.30 | JeffM2501 | ahh |
| 17:34.34 | JeffM2501 | our server is very very dumb |
| 17:34.41 | *** join/#bzflag Ballard_ (n=Ballard@stjch2-12-46-85-176.stjohncable.com) |
| 17:34.43 | a_meteorite | heh |
| 17:34.51 | Luke-Jr | a_meteorite: when the server is configured for non-compatible features, the admin is told clients older than x version will be kicked |
| 17:34.55 | JeffM2501 | a_meteorite, with a more server side system you can do a lot more with out breaks |
| 17:35.01 | JeffM2501 | it's how quake does most of it's mods. |
| 17:35.07 | a_meteorite | that makes sense |
| 17:35.17 | a_meteorite | but it's a big change from everything client-side |
| 17:35.21 | Luke-Jr | for example, respawning blocks out anything pre 0.2.8 |
| 17:35.27 | a_meteorite | almost a whole new way of looking at things |
| 17:35.42 | JeffM2501 | Luke-Jr, so realy you force people to upgrade as well, just in a difrent way ;) |
| 17:35.44 | a_meteorite | actually, it IS :) |
| 17:35.48 | Luke-Jr | actually, not respawning, but the concept of a cycle that's invulnerable |
| 17:35.55 | DTRemenak | JeffM2501: thanks :) |
| 17:36.04 | Luke-Jr | JeffM2501: only if stuff breaks on the server |
| 17:36.07 | JeffM2501 | a_meteorite, it's not that new, most games now do heavy server side |
| 17:36.22 | JeffM2501 | we are still a lan game |
| 17:36.24 | a_meteorite | JeffM2501: well, considering bzflag is from 1993 it would be new |
| 17:36.41 | JBdiGriz | DTRemenak: Congratulations! |
| 17:36.44 | *** join/#bzflag bryjen (n=bryjen@63.147.94.149) |
| 17:36.44 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v bryjen] by ChanServ |
| 17:36.51 | JeffM2501 | a_meteorite, no it's not new, we are just old |
| 17:36.54 | JeffM2501 | very old |
| 17:36.58 | JeffM2501 | and we all know it |
| 17:36.58 | Luke-Jr | heh |
| 17:37.03 | JeffM2501 | so don't sugar coat it |
| 17:37.09 | a_meteorite | I mean something like moving all server-side is new |
| 17:37.14 | a_meteorite | because the game is old |
| 17:37.16 | JeffM2501 | just for us |
| 17:37.19 | DTRemenak | JBdiGriz: thanks :) |
| 17:37.19 | JeffM2501 | it's not a new concept |
| 17:37.20 | a_meteorite | it's a drastic change |
| 17:37.21 | JeffM2501 | so it dosn't mater |
| 17:37.26 | Luke-Jr | I've been considering a pure server-side engine for years, at least =p |
| 17:37.28 | JeffM2501 | a_meteorite, not if it's done right |
| 17:37.40 | Luke-Jr | eg, a dumb client that has no concepts of physics/visuals/etc on its own |
| 17:37.41 | JeffM2501 | a_meteorite, you don't understand what it means so stop making comments on it ;) |
| 17:37.42 | a_meteorite | I mean as in what you've BEEN doing |
| 17:37.54 | a_meteorite | it's a drastic change from what you have been doing |
| 17:38.01 | JeffM2501 | not realy |
| 17:38.13 | JeffM2501 | it's just moving the same stuf to another place |
| 17:38.34 | a_meteorite | ok, nvm, you still don't get what I meant ;) |
| 17:38.42 | JeffM2501 | I know what you mean |
| 17:38.53 | JeffM2501 | you mean it's some big magical thing that will make it all difrent |
| 17:38.55 | JeffM2501 | when it won't |
| 17:39.00 | JeffM2501 | cus you don't realy know what it means |
| 17:39.03 | a_meteorite | no |
| 17:39.04 | JeffM2501 | but it's not important |
| 17:39.09 | a_meteorite | whatever.. |
| 17:39.31 | JeffM2501 | Luke-Jr, we also don't list servers that are incompatable |
| 17:39.36 | JeffM2501 | so the 2.0.x people just see 2.0.x servers |
| 17:39.42 | JeffM2501 | the 2.1 people see 2.1 |
| 17:39.43 | Luke-Jr | of course |
| 17:39.51 | JeffM2501 | so when there server moves, they move |
| 17:40.10 | JeffM2501 | the 2.0 break was because we added new objects to the world |
| 17:40.15 | Luke-Jr | 'kick' only is used when the setting is changed at run-time-- eg, the incompatible player is already connected |
| 17:40.15 | JeffM2501 | so we had to update server and client |
| 17:40.23 | JeffM2501 | cus the clients got a totaly new rendering system |
| 17:40.53 | JeffM2501 | we have a limited subset of things that can change at runtime |
| 17:40.59 | JeffM2501 | like you can't change the map |
| 17:41.02 | JeffM2501 | you have to restart to do that |
| 17:41.34 | Luke-Jr | we load the map every round |
| 17:42.02 | JeffM2501 | I hope to get BZ to be able to reload the map for 2.2 |
| 17:42.13 | JeffM2501 | if i can get time |
| 17:42.18 | a_meteorite | that would be nice |
| 17:42.24 | JeffM2501 | indeed |
| 17:42.28 | a_meteorite | you can update the map and everyone would keep their score |
| 17:42.31 | a_meteorite | or rounds |
| 17:42.36 | a_meteorite | very nice concept indeed |
| 17:42.39 | JeffM2501 | I need to get the gamestate clear first |
| 17:42.45 | JeffM2501 | so I need other messages for that |
| 17:42.54 | JeffM2501 | put eveyone in limbo, end shots, etc. |
| 17:43.03 | Mr_Molez | JeffM2501: will the map be changable by everyone ? |
| 17:43.09 | Mr_Molez | if you enable it to be |
| 17:43.16 | a_meteorite | I would figure it to be a command |
| 17:43.22 | a_meteorite | based on a perm |
| 17:43.30 | JeffM2501 | Mr_Molez, I was gonna just leave it as an API function |
| 17:43.38 | JeffM2501 | then people could build a plugin with a command |
| 17:43.44 | Mr_Molez | just thinking about openleague, that uses multiple maps, but it gives every registered memeber the ability to change maps |
| 17:43.45 | JeffM2501 | and do perms or whatnot |
| 17:43.52 | Mr_Molez | JeffM2501: ah ok |
| 17:43.56 | JeffM2501 | Mr_Molez, you could make a plugin to do that |
| 17:44.04 | JeffM2501 | some plugins may want to change the map based on time |
| 17:44.06 | JeffM2501 | or score |
| 17:44.10 | JeffM2501 | or when a match is over |
| 17:44.10 | a_meteorite | yeah |
| 17:44.16 | JeffM2501 | so it needs to be flexable |
| 17:44.18 | trepan | na, go straight to dynamic maps |
| 17:44.19 | a_meteorite | but a simple /updatemap might be nice |
| 17:44.28 | a_meteorite | straight in bzfs |
| 17:44.41 | JeffM2501 | trepan, if you want to commit it, have at it |
| 17:44.45 | a_meteorite | trepan: like moving objects? |
| 17:44.56 | a_meteorite | that is synced? |
| 17:44.58 | JeffM2501 | a_meteorite, why? why not do it as a plugin |
| 17:45.11 | Luke-Jr | how much RAM and bandwidth does bzfs use? |
| 17:45.18 | JeffM2501 | ram not much |
| 17:45.21 | trepan | heh, not bloody likely/worthwhile :) |
| 17:45.23 | JeffM2501 | bandwith, depends on players and shots |
| 17:45.26 | JeffM2501 | trepan, exactly |
| 17:46.02 | a_meteorite | average of 3-4K is what I have heard, but if it's 20 shots with 1 second reload expect that to skyrocket |
| 17:46.33 | Mr_Molez | about 250kb/s for 25 players 3 shot server |
| 17:46.52 | Luke-Jr | 3 shot? O.o |
| 17:46.54 | a_meteorite | ouch, more than I thought |
| 17:46.59 | trepan | but if one was inclined to do work on bz's map/world, that'd be my suggestion |
| 17:47.08 | JeffM2501 | one of the server configs is how many shots a tank can fire at a time |
| 17:47.22 | JeffM2501 | there are basicly "slots" for your shots |
| 17:47.27 | a_meteorite | trepan: so you mean moving objects? such as doors or animated meshes? |
| 17:47.33 | Luke-Jr | Mr_Molez: KBytes or bits? |
| 17:47.43 | Mr_Molez | bytes |
| 17:47.58 | JeffM2501 | a_meteorite, I belive he means just being able to refrence an object and change it at any time |
| 17:48.04 | Luke-Jr | JeffM2501: so you'd fire 3 and wait for them to hit something? |
| 17:48.06 | JeffM2501 | dynamic dosn't mean animaged |
| 17:48.13 | a_meteorite | ah, I see |
| 17:48.16 | JeffM2501 | Luke-Jr, well you'd wait for htem to reload |
| 17:48.21 | Luke-Jr | ah |
| 17:48.36 | JeffM2501 | and the reload time is tied to the shot lifetime, yes |
| 17:48.46 | JeffM2501 | but not to hits |
| 17:48.54 | a_meteorite | JeffM2501: is _shotRange supposed to work? I've never seen it affect anything |
| 17:49.10 | JeffM2501 | a_meteorite, if it's in there I woudl think it's "suposed" todo something |
| 17:49.26 | a_meteorite | heh, I've set it to crazy stuff with no results |
| 17:49.27 | Theme97 | Isn't _shotRange just supposed to affect _reloadTime through a simple calculation of _shotSpeed / _shotRange or something like that? |
| 17:49.33 | Luke-Jr | is 25 players common? if it uses 250 KB/sec, are all servers on business internet connections? |
| 17:49.44 | a_meteorite | Theme97: well, that's what I thought but it doesn't do anything for me |
| 17:49.50 | JeffM2501 | many servers are on home connections |
| 17:49.59 | Luke-Jr | most home connections can't do nearly 250 KB/sec |
| 17:50.01 | JeffM2501 | the most popular high player ones are at data centers |
| 17:50.08 | a_meteorite | Luke-Jr: boxy war for instance is on a 100Mbit |
| 17:50.08 | JeffM2501 | most servers are empty |
| 17:50.21 | JeffM2501 | we actualy have too many servers |
| 17:50.26 | Theme97 | a_meteorite: If you leave _reloadTime unchanged and modify _shotRange (and maybe reset _reloadTime so it re-does the calculation) it might have an effect. :D |
| 17:50.26 | a_meteorite | yeah |
| 17:50.32 | JeffM2501 | it's like almost 1:1 for servers to players righrt now |
| 17:50.39 | a_meteorite | Theme97: hmm I'll have to try it |
| 17:50.56 | a_meteorite | ideally we would have 50 servers :) |
| 17:50.57 | JeffM2501 | but usualy on the top 10 servers have players |
| 17:51.07 | a_meteorite | if not less |
| 17:51.07 | JeffM2501 | where do you get these numbers man? |
| 17:51.20 | a_meteorite | JeffM2501: I said "ideally" |
| 17:51.21 | JeffM2501 | your chair must be full of numbers ;) |
| 17:51.29 | JeffM2501 | I know what you said, I can read ;) |
| 17:51.34 | a_meteorite | meaning, that would make more sense than 200 servers |
| 17:51.42 | a_meteorite | a ratio of 4:1 :) |
| 17:51.59 | JeffM2501 | for 200 players, I'd say you'd want less then 20 |
| 17:52.05 | JeffM2501 | maybe 25 |
| 17:52.12 | JeffM2501 | so you could have a couple 1 on 1s |
| 17:52.23 | JeffM2501 | but then I also want todo server side rooms |
| 17:52.25 | JeffM2501 | for one on one |
| 17:52.28 | JeffM2501 | or groups |
| 17:52.49 | a_meteorite | there are so many nice maps that get hosted but there aren't enough players to go around |
| 17:52.59 | JeffM2501 | yes |
| 17:53.13 | JeffM2501 | if you had proper map rotation, you could have those maps be on the high pop servers |
| 17:53.20 | Mr_Molez | i think there are enough match servers not for it to have its own group listed in the client server list page |
| 17:53.23 | JeffM2501 | the concept of one server per map is outdated |
| 17:53.24 | Mr_Molez | not = now |
| 17:53.35 | JeffM2501 | Mr_Molez, I agree |
| 17:54.02 | DTRemenak | JeffM2501: the problem with rotation is that everyone gets kicked off |
| 17:54.10 | a_meteorite | a group concept for servers would be interesting |
| 17:54.19 | JeffM2501 | DTRemenak, not when I'm done :) |
| 17:54.21 | a_meteorite | would allow people to get their own tab for leagues and such |
| 17:54.23 | DTRemenak | a lot of servers don't want that risk |
| 17:54.27 | DTRemenak | JeffM2501: sweet :) |
| 17:54.30 | a_meteorite | w00t |
| 17:54.35 | JeffM2501 | just limbo them, and resend the map |
| 17:54.40 | JeffM2501 | then respawn em |
| 17:54.41 | *** join/#bzflag ruskie (n=ruskie@sourcemage/mage/ruskie) |
| 17:54.44 | DTRemenak | sounds good to me |
| 17:54.46 | a_meteorite | that would be nice |
| 17:54.50 | DTRemenak | preserves scores too |
| 17:54.56 | JeffM2501 | it's how most games work nowadays |
| 17:55.05 | a_meteorite | now I can play a full game of overlord and babel :) |
| 17:55.15 | DTRemenak | heh, there you go with "most games" again |
| 17:55.25 | a_meteorite | (that is, when it gets implemented) |
| 17:55.46 | DTRemenak | course it's a good way to do things anyway :) |
| 17:56.38 | *** join/#bzflag tokimi (n=toki@bjoerling.phys.washington.edu) |
| 17:57.56 | JeffM2501 | yeah me and my silly logic |
| 18:01.39 | Luke-Jr | any suggestions for what a 25-slot server should cost? |
| 18:04.11 | JeffM2501 | what woudl you charge for a 25 player amegetron server? |
| 18:04.31 | Luke-Jr | 16-slot is the max ;p |
| 18:04.40 | JeffM2501 | ok how much do you charge for that? |
| 18:04.41 | Luke-Jr | and Arma uses much less bandwidth, from the sound of it |
| 18:04.45 | Luke-Jr | $16/mo |
| 18:05.19 | JeffM2501 | so your looking at like 30-40 a month based on that rate |
| 18:05.45 | Luke-Jr | how do you figure? O.o |
| 18:06.02 | JeffM2501 | if you take your ama rate of a bucka player |
| 18:06.06 | JeffM2501 | that woudl be 25 |
| 18:06.07 | a_meteorite | $1.75/slot sounds reasonable enough |
| 18:06.17 | JeffM2501 | then increase it a bit for more bandwith |
| 18:06.24 | JeffM2501 | gets you to likke 30-40 |
| 18:06.30 | JeffM2501 | depending on how much more bandwith |
| 18:06.33 | a_meteorite | yeah |
| 18:06.44 | Mr_Molez | wow most i would charge is 10 per month :P |
| 18:06.45 | Luke-Jr | about double =p |
| 18:06.54 | JeffM2501 | ok then 50 |
| 18:06.58 | a_meteorite | heh |
| 18:07.04 | JeffM2501 | I don't think you'll get 50 a month out of any player |
| 18:07.06 | Luke-Jr | Mr_Molez: for 25-slot bzflag? how would you afford that? =p |
| 18:07.12 | JeffM2501 | anyone who has that much money will get there own host |
| 18:07.18 | Mr_Molez | Luke-Jr: i would do unlimited slots |
| 18:07.28 | Mr_Molez | Luke-Jr: easy my host is very cheap |
| 18:07.29 | JeffM2501 | colo hosts arn't that much |
| 18:07.31 | a_meteorite | $100 month for 1,000GB. pretty much standard |
| 18:07.41 | JeffM2501 | and that will run a number of servers |
| 18:07.45 | a_meteorite | yes |
| 18:07.51 | Mr_Molez | JeffM2501: exactly :P |
| 18:07.53 | a_meteorite | 60-80 players easy |
| 18:07.58 | a_meteorite | if not more |
| 18:08.10 | JeffM2501 | also molez would not be looking for max profit |
| 18:08.15 | a_meteorite | heh |
| 18:08.47 | JeffM2501 | geting more then 20$ a month out of our players is not going to be easy I think |
| 18:09.27 | JBdiGriz | If we could get money out of our players, we could vastly improve the game. Hire a developer to work on all of these ideas. |
| 18:09.55 | a_meteorite | that sorta throws the whole open-source concept out the window |
| 18:10.14 | Luke-Jr | not at all |
| 18:10.23 | a_meteorite | Luke-Jr: in respons to JBdiGriz |
| 18:10.31 | JBdiGriz | I have gotten paid for working on open-source software. What world do you live in? |
| 18:10.35 | a_meteorite | argh, this keyboard is dying |
| 18:10.37 | Luke-Jr | open source is all about either writing the code yourself or paying someone to do it for you |
| 18:10.41 | Mr_Molez | Luke-Jr: i pay 40 per month for a 100mbit server 1tb traffic |
| 18:10.51 | Luke-Jr | Mr_Molez: where? |
| 18:10.57 | Mr_Molez | Luke-Jr: so at 10 .. just 4 customers will pay for the server |
| 18:11.52 | Mr_Molez | Luke-Jr: hehe |
| 18:12.15 | Luke-Jr | ... where do you get prices like that? |
| 18:12.27 | Mr_Molez | Luke-Jr: germany, so cheap there |
| 18:12.38 | Luke-Jr | is there a website? =p |
| 18:12.45 | Mr_Molez | probably |
| 18:12.47 | Luke-Jr | of course, germany wouldn't exactly be low-ping either |
| 18:13.03 | Luke-Jr | Mr_Molez: link? =p |
| 18:13.18 | Mr_Molez | Luke-Jr: there are a few |
| 18:16.04 | *** join/#bzflag SpazzyMcGee (n=SpazzyMc@fordend.demon.co.uk) |
| 18:16.17 | Luke-Jr | Mr_Molez: not that Google is finding |
| 18:17.57 | Mr_Molez | Luke-Jr: netdirekt.de |
| 18:18.02 | ToughShooter | Luke-Jr: For me it is :p |
| 18:18.10 | Luke-Jr | ToughShooter: what terms? =p |
| 18:18.13 | ToughShooter | 1ms lag at viper :) |
| 18:18.36 | Luke-Jr | Mr_Molez: crap, the site's in german too =p |
| 18:18.52 | Mr_Molez | Luke-Jr: lol |
| 18:19.05 | ToughShooter | With high quality settings FPS go down and so the ping gets 5 times bigger to 5ms |
| 18:19.17 | JeffM2501 | I've seen US hosting deals for 1000gig for 75-80 |
| 18:19.19 | JeffM2501 | a month |
| 18:19.25 | Mr_Molez | vserver.de is also very good |
| 18:19.42 | ToughShooter | That's pretty much low-ping. It just depends on where you are ;) |
| 18:20.04 | JeffM2501 | but 50$ a month for a 25 player server is right in line with other game hosting services |
| 18:20.38 | JeffM2501 | cus you are paying for more then bandwith |
| 18:20.38 | nick125_lappy | yeah |
| 18:20.38 | JeffM2501 | you are paying to not have to care about the server at all |
| 18:20.38 | JeffM2501 | ease of setup and all that |
| 18:21.16 | nick125_lappy | personally, I recommend a VPS for game servers..I've ran a bzflag server with 20 players peak (one time..yeah) with 256MB ram, and, it actually worked pretty well |
| 18:21.39 | Luke-Jr | 1000 GB/mo is only 3.3 Mbit/sec... |
| 18:22.04 | JeffM2501 | that still hosts a lot of games Luke-Jr |
| 18:22.09 | nick125_lappy | yeah |
| 18:22.27 | JeffM2501 | and most servers arn't fully packed fully running 24/7 |
| 18:22.33 | Luke-Jr | 40 slots total |
| 18:22.51 | *** join/#bzflag TD-Linux (n=TD-Linux@24-159-201-32.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com) |
| 18:23.03 | Luke-Jr | JeffM2501: that would be overselling service ;p |
| 18:23.10 | Luke-Jr | to work on that assumption |
| 18:23.45 | Luke-Jr | though maybe some people would accept that for a lower price... hm |
| 18:23.58 | Mr_Molez | Luke-Jr: that would be about 12 full servers before u would reach 3.3mbit/s |
| 18:24.15 | Luke-Jr | Mr_Molez: 5 players is full? |
| 18:24.33 | Mr_Molez | not many servers go over 25/20 |
| 18:24.34 | JeffM2501 | oh like others don't do that :) |
| 18:24.35 | Mr_Molez | 25/30 |
| 18:24.54 | JeffM2501 | bzflag.bz runs more then 40 slots and hasn't hit it's bandwith cap yet |
| 18:25.03 | JeffM2501 | and it does froums and list server |
| 18:25.13 | nick125_lappy | JeffM2501: what's the cap again? 1tb/ |
| 18:25.15 | Luke-Jr | Mr_Molez: 3.3 mbit hosts 60 players |
| 18:25.18 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 18:25.35 | a_meteorite | JeffM2501: what server does bzflag.bz run? |
| 18:25.35 | Mr_Molez | games like grand theft auto get 100 players on their server, i would love to see their bandwidth usage :P |
| 18:25.40 | nick125_lappy | JeffM2501: what's the average badnwidth usage, btw? |
| 18:25.43 | JeffM2501 | spread out over mor then one server makes the usage not go up geometrycily |
| 18:25.46 | JeffM2501 | nick125_lappy, I don't know |
| 18:25.58 | JeffM2501 | brlcad indicated it was not anywhere near the limit tho |
| 18:26.57 | nick125_lappy | http://bzflag.bz/stats/mrtg/bzflag-week.png < hm |
| 18:27.02 | JeffM2501 | Mr_Molez, they probably use less then us, as they have difrent net data |
| 18:27.09 | Mr_Molez | true |
| 18:27.18 | JeffM2501 | we do little to controll bandwith useage |
| 18:31.19 | JeffM2501 | 2$ a player seems to be the going rate for game hosting |
| 18:31.23 | nick125_lappy | I could see it hard to even hit 1mbit (330GB) |
| 18:31.25 | JeffM2501 | for the common fps games |
| 18:32.57 | nick125_lappy | In the oversubscription world, you would know that most of those slots will go unused most of the time, which means that most of that $2 is pure proft |
| 18:34.58 | JeffM2501 | what is wrong with profit :) |
| 18:35.31 | nick125_lappy | that's why I think that going by the actual number of b/w used would probably be a better scale |
| 18:36.24 | JeffM2501 | most users won't understand that tho |
| 18:36.31 | JeffM2501 | but hey it'd be your biz :) |
| 18:37.39 | nick125_lappy | it's quite simple: I give you x amount of ram, x amount of disk, and x amount of b/w, and, you do whatever you want with it. |
| 18:37.39 | JeffM2501 | honestly I've never seen anyone get any money out of our general player base |
| 18:37.58 | JeffM2501 | nick125_lappy, that's nomral shared hosting, people do that now, and they arn't flocking to it |
| 18:38.46 | ruskie | :) |
| 18:38.48 | nick125_lappy | that's how I current do hosting in general, some people run game servers, some run mail servers, and, they seem to be quite happy with it. |
| 18:39.07 | JeffM2501 | how do you keep them from walking over each others ports? |
| 18:39.13 | JeffM2501 | or are they on there own machiens? |
| 18:39.22 | nick125_lappy | JeffM2501: seperate IP addresses |
| 18:39.30 | JeffM2501 | ahh |
| 18:39.38 | JeffM2501 | that makes it easy then |
| 18:39.59 | nick125_lappy | each customer gets 2 IP addresses (DNS is worthless with 1, and, I don't want to have to handle adding another IP for DNS, so, why not just do 2 anyways) |
| 18:40.10 | JeffM2501 | I think there are 2 types of game hosting customer, the one that wants to set up all things, and the person who wants it simple |
| 18:40.29 | nick125_lappy | or, really hosting customer in *general* |
| 18:41.00 | nick125_lappy | here's what I see: one person that wants to do everything, and another that just wants it to work and doesn't want to worry about it |
| 18:43.49 | Luke-Jr | nick125_lappy: I'm aiming for the more specific uses |
| 18:44.06 | Luke-Jr | eg, a managed server when I admin the server itself and they're left to run the game |
| 18:44.34 | JeffM2501 | nick125_lappy, yeah same idea |
| 18:44.54 | JeffM2501 | I think our current users who want to do everything are alredy geting hosting from places |
| 18:45.15 | JeffM2501 | the ones that want it to just work are the ones who don't have anything to service them |
| 18:45.44 | JeffM2501 | yeah there is a group of those people Luke-Jr, you are going to find that they are rather young tho |
| 18:45.58 | Luke-Jr | I'm considering maybe just have a "we will do oversold service for 10 cents/slot less; this means if the server is overloaded, your players might get kicked" |
| 18:45.59 | JeffM2501 | the older ones usualy group together and get there own dedicated host |
| 18:46.13 | Luke-Jr | hm |
| 18:46.27 | nick125_lappy | one thin you could do for that issue is offer managed services to people to manage their semi-dedi/vps/dedicated |
| 18:46.35 | JeffM2501 | like I say, geting money out of them may be the tricky part, not the techincal issues :) |
| 18:47.02 | Luke-Jr | JeffM2501: most kids have PayPal these days, don't they? =p |
| 18:47.09 | JeffM2501 | some yes, some no |
| 18:47.30 | JeffM2501 | most do not have income streams |
| 18:47.38 | Luke-Jr | allowance? :x |
| 18:47.42 | nick125_lappy | JeffM2501: so they just steal daddy's credit card |
| 18:47.45 | nick125_lappy | or that |
| 18:48.07 | JeffM2501 | posibly, but I don't think that's a mainstream thing |
| 18:48.21 | JeffM2501 | most users just put a server on there home DSL |
| 18:48.32 | JeffM2501 | now if your service could take some of those DSL servers away |
| 18:48.40 | JeffM2501 | and make them into decent ping servers, that would be good |
| 18:48.52 | Luke-Jr | hm |
| 18:48.58 | JeffM2501 | I've just known the comunity for a long time now, and I don't think it's going to be easy to get money out of them |
| 18:49.06 | JeffM2501 | most players play this game simply because it is free |
| 18:49.21 | JeffM2501 | or the freeness is at lest a part of why they play |
| 18:49.49 | Luke-Jr | tried putting bzflag on store shelves? =p |
| 18:49.57 | JeffM2501 | I think the reason the other people who have tried, failed to get moeny out, was because of there lack of profesinalism |
| 18:50.11 | JeffM2501 | bzflag was going to be a comerical venture at one point |
| 18:50.18 | JeffM2501 | but then it went open source |
| 18:50.34 | JeffM2501 | honeslty it could not compte with retail games in it's currents tate |
| 18:50.35 | JeffM2501 | state |
| 18:50.40 | Luke-Jr | open source doesn't prevent commercial sales |
| 18:50.44 | JeffM2501 | Iknow |
| 18:50.55 | Luke-Jr | why not? |
| 18:50.56 | JeffM2501 | but the game is not very new user friendly at this time |
| 18:50.59 | Luke-Jr | ah |
| 18:51.06 | JeffM2501 | it's also VERY easy to cheat |
| 18:51.16 | JeffM2501 | it would basicly be laughed out of the stores |
| 18:51.16 | Luke-Jr | that's why stuff should be server-side ;p |
| 18:51.26 | JeffM2501 | should and is are 2 difrent things |
| 18:51.40 | JeffM2501 | as JBdiGriz stated, we don't have dedicated programers to do stuff |
| 18:51.45 | JeffM2501 | and the codebase is a lot older |
| 18:51.51 | JeffM2501 | so it wasn't made for internet play |
| 18:51.56 | Luke-Jr | can't just move code from client to server? |
| 18:51.59 | JeffM2501 | your codebase is newer and was designed better |
| 18:52.04 | Luke-Jr | sure, you'd break the protocol all over, but you do that anyhow |
| 18:52.05 | JeffM2501 | it's more then jsut moving it |
| 18:52.13 | JeffM2501 | it's also making it work |
| 18:52.25 | Luke-Jr | actually, Armagetron uses the exact same code for client and server ;p |
| 18:52.28 | JeffM2501 | and noone has spend the time to do that yet |
| 18:52.33 | Luke-Jr | server just doesn't attach a player to the game |
| 18:52.42 | JeffM2501 | our code isn't that modular |
| 18:52.50 | JeffM2501 | it can be done |
| 18:52.52 | JeffM2501 | somone just has to do it |
| 18:52.55 | JeffM2501 | and noone has |
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| 19:08.55 | amcnabb | I think I'm just looking at something wrong. |
| 19:09.12 | amcnabb | Line 6361 of playing.cxx is: |
| 19:09.14 | amcnabb | serverLink->sendPlayerUpdate(myTank); // also calls setDeadReckoning() |
| 19:09.26 | amcnabb | I'm not seeing that setDeadReckoning is actually called, though. |
| 19:13.07 | amcnabb | I guess it doesn't really matter, but it was a little confusing. |
| 19:18.30 | amcnabb | Another related question is: In handleAddPlayer, why does addPlayer get called for local robots but not for myTank? |
| 19:18.46 | amcnabb | (addPlayer creates a RobotPlayer in player[]) |
| 19:19.03 | amcnabb | s/RobotPlayer/RemotePlayer/ |
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| 19:26.03 | amcnabb | I have my own answer to the first question: setDeadReckoning is called from Player::pack(). |
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| 20:07.40 | *** join/#bzflag Skeeve (n=Skeeve@p50895B57.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 20:08.20 | Skeeve | Oh! No DTRemenak around |
| 20:10.24 | a_meteorite | why something against DTR? :o |
| 20:10.50 | Skeeve | No! Absolutely not. I'm wondering where he is |
| 20:10.58 | a_meteorite | lol |
| 20:11.08 | Skeeve | Wanted to aske whether or not he will look at my patch |
| 20:11.09 | JeffM2501 | probably finding a place to live |
| 20:11.44 | Skeeve | Did he loose his house (flat... tent... whatever)? |
| 20:11.49 | JeffM2501 | no |
| 20:11.55 | JeffM2501 | he'll be moving soon |
| 20:12.05 | Skeeve | Did he get the job |
| 20:12.11 | JeffM2501 | indeed |
| 20:12.16 | Skeeve | Great! |
| 20:12.57 | Skeeve | Regarding our discussion about XML Menus... |
| 20:13.21 | JeffM2501 | ya? |
| 20:13.33 | Skeeve | How do you like the idea of having the menus in lists and having a routine that handles these lists |
| 20:13.45 | Skeeve | I think, most of the menus are very similar |
| 20:13.48 | JeffM2501 | you are going to redo all the menus? |
| 20:13.56 | JeffM2501 | to be XML defined? |
| 20:13.56 | Skeeve | So why not come up with a universal menu handler |
| 20:14.01 | Skeeve | No |
| 20:14.03 | Skeeve | Not XML |
| 20:14.14 | Skeeve | Just some hard coded stuff like now |
| 20:14.19 | Skeeve | but easier to implement |
| 20:14.28 | JeffM2501 | all our menu systems are derived from a base menu class |
| 20:14.32 | Skeeve | So no defining of new classes |
| 20:14.34 | JeffM2501 | so they have a common handler at that point |
| 20:14.49 | JeffM2501 | how would you make each menu do what it has to do then? |
| 20:15.03 | Skeeve | Each menu has to return an id |
| 20:15.16 | Skeeve | this is handled in a "big switch statment" |
| 20:15.20 | JeffM2501 | and then you have one big case that handles ALL menus? |
| 20:15.23 | Skeeve | like it is done now |
| 20:15.30 | JeffM2501 | there are many switches |
| 20:15.32 | JeffM2501 | one for each pannel |
| 20:15.37 | Skeeve | but now it's several switch blocks |
| 20:15.38 | JeffM2501 | but yes |
| 20:15.41 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 20:15.44 | JeffM2501 | one per menu |
| 20:15.57 | JeffM2501 | how would you want to change that? |
| 20:16.07 | Skeeve | I don't know yet |
| 20:16.18 | Skeeve | Kust ideas I want to discuss |
| 20:16.22 | Skeeve | -k+j |
| 20:16.41 | JeffM2501 | for your tabs it'd be simple to do them as just other menus |
| 20:16.54 | JeffM2501 | and just push and pop from the stack |
| 20:16.55 | Skeeve | Right |
| 20:17.12 | JeffM2501 | or let give the stack some ability to replace what is on top with the new one, instead of just push |
| 20:18.54 | Skeeve | This is something I didn't understand when looking at the code yesterday. I had the slight feeling there is something going on with stacks, but didn't figure it out |
| 20:19.00 | Skeeve | I was a bit lost |
| 20:19.09 | JeffM2501 | when you go to a new menu, it's pushed to the top of the stack |
| 20:19.14 | JeffM2501 | when you go back, it's pulled |
| 20:19.31 | JeffM2501 | it's so that we keep a history of all the menus you've been to, and can keep backing out |
| 20:19.33 | JeffM2501 | with escape |
| 20:19.49 | Skeeve | Okay |
| 20:20.18 | Skeeve | It's just that these menu code seems very complicated and long to me. |
| 20:20.33 | Skeeve | Much to write down just to get one new item |
| 20:20.45 | JeffM2501 | not realy, just add an item, a set and a handler |
| 20:20.47 | Skeeve | Of courde: The handler will always be the same |
| 20:20.49 | JeffM2501 | it's rather easy |
| 20:21.01 | JeffM2501 | it's just one of many ways of doing it |
| 20:21.16 | JeffM2501 | we could encapsulate the item in a class and make it easyer |
| 20:21.16 | Skeeve | Can you give me a skeleton for a new menu? |
| 20:21.27 | Skeeve | Yes. That's a good idea |
| 20:21.36 | JeffM2501 | but then we'd have to change all the menus and items |
| 20:21.47 | JeffM2501 | just look at how we go from the main menu to the join menu |
| 20:21.49 | Skeeve | But not at once. |
| 20:21.59 | JeffM2501 | if you didn't do it all, it'd be even MORE confusing |
| 20:22.20 | JeffM2501 | as you'd have 2 systems |
| 20:22.26 | Skeeve | Okay... I think I will look at it when I'm offline for the next 2 weeks |
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| 20:55.15 | spldart | In the windoze ver of 2.0.8 in the first menu after starting up the client has anyone noticed a small horizontal bar flashing and jumping position all the way up in the top right of the screen? |
| 20:56.20 | Theme97 | I haven't. |
| 20:56.28 | Theme97 | I'm on Windows XP Pro, SP2. |
| 20:56.38 | JeffM2501 | ahh see your not running the same OS as him |
| 20:56.46 | JeffM2501 | he has some "windoze" variant ;) |
| 20:56.58 | JeffM2501 | must the the tiwan knock off |
| 20:57.38 | JeffM2501 | spldart, is it on your tv or your normal PC? |
| 20:57.57 | spldart | Win XP Pro corporate |
| 20:58.00 | spldart | SP2 |
| 20:58.10 | spldart | monitor on pc |
| 20:58.16 | JeffM2501 | wierd |
| 20:58.23 | JeffM2501 | screenshot? |
| 20:58.24 | spldart | it's no big deal I can ignore it |
| 20:58.31 | spldart | can you screenshot menu? |
| 20:58.39 | *** join/#bzflag Shirakawasuna (n=nick@71-210-57-46.hlna.qwest.net) |
| 20:58.39 | JeffM2501 | use the OS function |
| 20:58.43 | spldart | ah |
| 20:58.43 | JeffM2501 | ALT+ printscreen |
| 20:58.46 | spldart | yeah |
| 20:58.46 | JeffM2501 | then paste into paint |
| 20:58.54 | spldart | no prob... lemme try |
| 21:00.00 | ToughShooter | JeffM2501: I found a backup file in the bzflag cvs that is not needed - what to do? |
| 21:00.10 | Shirakawasuna | hi - I'm using a laptop w/ the 915gm chipset + i810 driver (linux + xorg-7.0) and for some reason, all of a sudden (probably something I did), half of the screen during gameplay doesn't render anything but the background |
| 21:00.24 | Shirakawasuna | as in one side shows me a structure and the other one only shows the ground and background |
| 21:00.30 | spldart | It flashes so fast I'm not catching it so far :(... |
| 21:00.32 | Shirakawasuna | has anyone in here heard of that? |
| 21:01.11 | ToughShooter | spldart: Run it in a window and let the system record a movie of the action on the screen. ;) |
| 21:01.31 | JeffM2501 | what file? |
| 21:01.52 | JeffM2501 | Shirakawasuna, yeah make sure you have current drivers |
| 21:01.58 | ToughShooter | Wait, I search the URL |
| 21:02.19 | Shirakawasuna | JeffM2501: you've heard of it before? |
| 21:02.25 | spldart | It's quit.. It is intermittent |
| 21:02.27 | JeffM2501 | yeah the intel chipsets suck |
| 21:02.32 | JeffM2501 | they geek on the stencel |
| 21:02.36 | JeffM2501 | usualy newer drivers fix it |
| 21:02.42 | Shirakawasuna | ah |
| 21:03.20 | JeffM2501 | it's possible you updated your linux system and it replaced your drivers with the Xord defaults |
| 21:03.25 | TD-Linux_ | spldart: maybe a background program? It flickers like that if a background program brings up a popup and the refresh rates aren't the same sometimes |
| 21:03.27 | JeffM2501 | the ones from intel are generaly better |
| 21:03.43 | Shirakawasuna | JeffM2501: yeah, they're what I use - sadly I'd have to upgrade into the testing branch |
| 21:03.55 | Shirakawasuna | JeffM2501: thanks for the info, though. I'll upgrade when I have time :) |
| 21:04.05 | JeffM2501 | k |
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| 21:04.25 | spldart | Since it's not something anyone has heard of the next time I'll just report back when I capture an image of it dancing around... It stopped screwing up after two attempts at screenshot |
| 21:05.03 | ToughShooter | JeffM2501: http://bzflag.cvs.sourceforge.net/bzflag/bzflag/src/platform/MacOSX/English.lproj/MainMenu~.nib/ |
| 21:05.43 | JeffM2501 | nibs are backups? |
| 21:05.46 | ToughShooter | no |
| 21:05.47 | JeffM2501 | or just cus it has the ~? |
| 21:05.56 | JeffM2501 | if it's not needed, delete it |
| 21:06.02 | ToughShooter | The ~ is appended when it is an backup |
| 21:06.07 | JeffM2501 | then kill it |
| 21:06.22 | ToughShooter | Is that a job for cvsignore? |
| 21:06.42 | JeffM2501 | it's the job of who ever added the folder ;) |
| 21:06.58 | *** part/#bzflag Shirakawasuna (n=nick@71-210-57-46.hlna.qwest.net) |
| 21:07.24 | Mr_Molez | JeffM2501: can you do me a favour ? |
| 21:07.29 | JeffM2501 | maybe |
| 21:07.47 | Mr_Molez | JeffM2501: can you explain the process of how bzflag would get data back from a url |
| 21:07.55 | Mr_Molez | bzflag = bzfs |
| 21:08.14 | JeffM2501 | from a plugin? |
| 21:08.26 | ToughShooter | brlcad: Ping |
| 21:08.39 | JeffM2501 | ToughShooter, I don't even see that dir in head |
| 21:08.51 | Mr_Molez | JeffM2501: we have auto report. that sends info to a php page. but what we want is for that page to send info back to the server |
| 21:08.59 | JeffM2501 | so yes, from a plugin |
| 21:09.01 | JeffM2501 | ok, you call bz_addURLJob |
| 21:09.02 | Mr_Molez | yip |
| 21:09.03 | ToughShooter | JeffM2501: When I check out head it is on my screen all the time |
| 21:09.32 | JeffM2501 | and you pass in a handler that is derived from bz_BaseURLHandler |
| 21:10.20 | JeffM2501 | in that derived class you define your own done method |
| 21:10.27 | JeffM2501 | void done ( const char* URL, void * data, unsigned int size, bool complete ) |
| 21:10.30 | JeffM2501 | it's called when the job is done |
| 21:10.37 | ToughShooter | hmm, it looks like all files inside are dead :/ |
| 21:10.42 | JeffM2501 | the data parmater will contain the data returned from the URL |
| 21:10.54 | JeffM2501 | then you just parse it out |
| 21:10.57 | JeffM2501 | that's it |
| 21:11.06 | Mr_Molez | JeffM2501: thanks you rule :) |
| 21:11.26 | JeffM2501 | you guys probably arn't installing a handler |
| 21:11.31 | JeffM2501 | since it's optional |
| 21:11.46 | JeffM2501 | you need one, cus you need to know when the job is done, and what the returned data is. |
| 21:11.58 | brlcad | ToughShooter: pong |
| 21:12.13 | Mr_Molez | ok :P |
| 21:12.21 | JeffM2501 | who wrote your plugin? |
| 21:12.22 | brlcad | you have to check out with -P |
| 21:12.28 | ToughShooter | brlcad: How comes when I cvs-checkout it walks through http://bzflag.cvs.sourceforge.net/bzflag/bzflag/src/platform/MacOSX/English.lproj/MainMenu~.nib/ |
| 21:12.38 | JeffM2501 | ahh you have oldness |
| 21:12.49 | brlcad | cvs -d... checkout -P bzflag |
| 21:12.50 | JeffM2501 | your geting the stuff that is from other older branches |
| 21:13.02 | brlcad | should always use -P on checkout |
| 21:13.37 | ToughShooter | Hmm |
| 21:14.29 | brlcad | ~exchange 45 EUR USD |
| 21:14.52 | ToughShooter | This is what I do in shell: http://bzflag.pastebin.ca/125721 |
| 21:15.54 | ToughShooter | brlcad: 35.253 € if 45 is $, otherwise it would be 57.442 |
| 21:19.27 | brlcad | ToughShooter: thx |
| 21:20.11 | brlcad | ToughShooter: i get invalid syntax from cvs here with the -d bzflag_head/ option |
| 21:20.34 | brlcad | er, not so much invalid syntax but an error regardless |
| 21:20.38 | brlcad | cvs [checkout aborted]: could not change directory to requested checkout directory `bzflag_head': No such file or directory |
| 21:20.54 | brlcad | it's taking it as a module name |
| 21:21.13 | brlcad | try it without and see if it correctly prunes (or just run cvs update -dP |
| 21:21.15 | ToughShooter | brlcad: The bzflag_head dir was from a previous checkout without the -d option, I renamed it later |
| 21:22.17 | brlcad | you only "checkout" once.. |
| 21:22.36 | brlcad | after that you'd just run cvs update -dP in bzflag_head |
| 21:22.44 | brlcad | not the whole login/co shpeil |
| 21:23.02 | ToughShooter | brlcad: cvs udate -dP also lists that dir |
| 21:23.17 | brlcad | do you have something in that dir? |
| 21:23.30 | brlcad | if there's a foreign file in there, or something modified, it won't prune |
| 21:23.31 | ToughShooter | Nah, it does not seem to exist locally |
| 21:24.28 | brlcad | what does not exist locally? if the directory doesn't exist, then what is the problem exactly? :) |
| 21:25.02 | ToughShooter | I wonder why it is listed every time :/ |
| 21:25.15 | ToughShooter | Does it still exist? |
| 21:25.44 | brlcad | you're not making sense |
| 21:26.02 | brlcad | the directly either exists or it does not exist in your checkout |
| 21:26.13 | ToughShooter | Locally it does not exist |
| 21:26.23 | brlcad | then what's the problem? |
| 21:26.37 | ToughShooter | Just cvs does list it on every checkout/update |
| 21:26.44 | ToughShooter | That makes me curious |
| 21:26.47 | brlcad | ahhhhh |
| 21:26.54 | brlcad | that's just how cvs works |
| 21:27.00 | ToughShooter | eek |
| 21:27.08 | brlcad | it has to traverse every directory that has ever been created/added to the project |
| 21:27.17 | brlcad | at one point, someone commited that directory |
| 21:27.30 | brlcad | so it has to traverse it to make sure nothing was revived |
| 21:27.58 | brlcad | cvs does not revision control directories, so it has to visit each directory you add to see whether there is anything non-dead in that directory |
| 21:28.14 | JeffM2501 | that is one thing SVN does beter IIRC |
| 21:28.35 | ToughShooter | SVN does have downsides I have heard |
| 21:28.35 | brlcad | the directory could be purged from the CVS directory path by simply deleting the bogusly added directory |
| 21:29.05 | brlcad | in the CVSROOT directly, not via a checkout -- but mucking in the cvsroot is a quick way to ruin a project's history |
| 21:29.22 | brlcad | it's not a big deal.. especially as the project goes |
| 21:29.39 | brlcad | if you look more closely, you'll notice that there are many old directories that it traverses that no longer exist |
| 21:29.48 | brlcad | e.g. src/bzfls |
| 21:30.10 | ToughShooter | yeah bit ~.nib was obviously something that was never needed ;) |
| 21:30.13 | brlcad | I usually cvs -q update -dP so I never see any of the traversal myself.. it's useless fluff |
| 21:30.19 | ToughShooter | so I found this first |
| 21:33.17 | ToughShooter | Thanks for clearing it up now :) |
| 21:33.42 | *** part/#bzflag bryjen (n=bryjen@63.147.94.149) |
| 21:43.05 | orthox | hi |
| 21:43.48 | orthox | does anyone ever had the problem with a server where some players coudn't fire shots? |
| 21:44.36 | menotume | as in they get booted when they try ? |
| 21:45.00 | menotume | and it tells them they don't have UDP enabled ? |
| 21:45.16 | orthox | no. they fire shots. noone else can see them. they don't destroy anything, and they can see them. |
| 21:45.38 | JeffM2501 | they on an AMD64 on linux? |
| 21:46.00 | orthox | yes |
| 21:46.11 | JeffM2501 | they using the 2.0.6 package from a debian build? |
| 21:46.35 | *** join/#bzflag Ballard (n=Ballard@stjch2-12-46-85-176.stjohncable.com) |
| 21:46.55 | orthox | no |
| 21:47.02 | JeffM2501 | they build from source? |
| 21:47.08 | JeffM2501 | or using a package? |
| 21:47.11 | orthox | its fc4 with a straight build from source |
| 21:47.27 | JeffM2501 | what source? |
| 21:47.32 | JeffM2501 | 2.0.8? CVS? |
| 21:47.36 | JeffM2501 | or older? |
| 21:47.56 | JeffM2501 | basicly there was a bug in older code that could cause the AMD64s to do that |
| 21:48.08 | JeffM2501 | the debian packages got built that way, but others could have as well |
| 21:48.15 | JeffM2501 | building from 2.0.x cvs is the best solution |
| 21:48.34 | orthox | let me check. its the 32 bit buoild of linux, but a 64 bit amd chip. it's also an fc4 running on Xen. |
| 21:48.49 | menotume | orthox - you've been messing with /sets :) |
| 21:48.49 | JeffM2501 | oh it's 32bit linux |
| 21:49.04 | JeffM2501 | yeah maybe it did a 64bit build of bz |
| 21:50.00 | orthox | then it shouldn't run. its bzflag-2.0.8 but not from cvs |
| 21:51.57 | orthox | in fact i've got another server, same build and code that works fine. |
| 21:52.13 | spldart | WooHoo one in a million.. two tanks up on a block did a spin jump, 3 shots = 2 tanks :) |
| 21:52.55 | orthox | i'll try a restart later to see if it helps |
| 21:53.00 | orthox | thanks for the help |
| 21:57.20 | *** join/#bzflag SpazzyMcGee (n=SpazzyMc@fordend.demon.co.uk) |
| 22:00.46 | CBG | spldart: nice :) |
| 22:01.08 | CBG | I had two double-kills lastnight, within a 30min period. O.o |
| 22:01.57 | *** join/#bzflag Luke-Jr (n=luke-jr@user-0c93tin.cable.mindspring.com) |
| 22:02.15 | Luke-Jr | BZFlag crashed my computer |
| 22:02.17 | Luke-Jr | I want my money back |
| 22:02.19 | Luke-Jr | =p |
| 22:02.24 | *** join/#bzflag luke-jr_ (n=luke-jr@user-0c93tin.cable.mindspring.com) |
| 22:02.36 | *** part/#bzflag luke-jr_ (n=luke-jr@user-0c93tin.cable.mindspring.com) |
| 22:14.46 | spldart | Sweet CBG :) |
| 22:15.33 | spldart | JeffM2501: Is your preferencial solution to reduce the number of servers or make it easier to cope with searching them? |
| 22:15.39 | CBG | spldart: yeah, they were spawn kills, on a base (my own, it's a tactic in GU to kill your teammates after you are capped, so that they may spawn near the enemies flag) |
| 22:15.44 | spldart | LOL cbg |
| 22:16.00 | spldart | ah |
| 22:16.58 | JeffM2501 | not just searching |
| 22:17.02 | JeffM2501 | most of the servers are empty |
| 22:17.02 | spldart | IC |
| 22:17.05 | JeffM2501 | sot hey are a waste |
| 22:17.10 | spldart | I know :( |
| 22:17.12 | JeffM2501 | and many are not activly admined |
| 22:17.35 | spldart | I've only been on the first page a hand full of times.... |
| 22:17.40 | CBG | having empty servers is a problem? |
| 22:17.55 | CBG | i dont see what harm it does, and it gives players variety and choice... |
| 22:17.56 | spldart | It's a bugger to search through pages of servers |
| 22:17.57 | JeffM2501 | well not realy, but they arn't realy helping |
| 22:18.07 | CBG | badnly-adminned servers, I can see as a problem. |
| 22:18.10 | spldart | I think Jeff wants to put them in catagories, tabs or whatever like files |
| 22:18.14 | JeffM2501 | CBG, not realy, it only offers a choice if somone else is there |
| 22:18.24 | JeffM2501 | and if noone is there, its pointless |
| 22:18.30 | JeffM2501 | that's why everyone hangs out on the top 10 |
| 22:18.33 | CBG | JeffM2501: sure, but it's not a problem. |
| 22:18.39 | JeffM2501 | no, not a problem |
| 22:18.42 | CBG | it may not be a good thing, but I dont see it as a bad thing. |
| 22:18.45 | JeffM2501 | not somethign that has to be solved |
| 22:18.48 | CBG | at worst it's just "pointless". |
| 22:18.52 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 22:18.59 | JeffM2501 | I'm not saying ban empty servers or anything |
| 22:19.00 | spldart | After I give my mouse hand a rest I think I'll linger in a RC map til it gets busy... |
| 22:19.11 | JeffM2501 | just that it would be nice if the servers well admined and fast |
| 22:19.18 | CBG | well, true. |
| 22:19.29 | SportyGal | ~sue menotume |
| 22:19.32 | ibot | ACTION acting on orders from an unspecified client, drags menotume into court suing for $200 million |
| 22:19.47 | JeffM2501 | and if servers can swap maps, then that means that more maps can be done on the good admined servers |
| 22:19.49 | spldart | heh |
| 22:19.54 | CBG | there'll be a few less servers on the list as of tonight. the mofo server had to be restarted so all those servers went down. not all will be going back online. |
| 22:20.08 | *** join/#bzflag Theme97_ (n=Theme97@adsl-68-120-85-87.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net) |
| 22:20.13 | JeffM2501 | it just seems odd that it's almost 1 to 1 for servers and players |
| 22:20.18 | CBG | 2 (if not all 3) of mine will not be restarted. since as you say, they are pointless. never used. |
| 22:20.19 | JeffM2501 | the only problem is our display of all that data |
| 22:20.32 | CBG | JeffM2501: not 1-1, more like 2-1. |
| 22:20.42 | JeffM2501 | 2 servers to 1 player? |
| 22:20.45 | spldart | hehe.. My 'legacy' server was dead full waiting room only just a bit ago LOL |
| 22:20.48 | JeffM2501 | ~bzfslist |
| 22:21.14 | CBG | JeffM2501: yes, I have seen that before. |
| 22:21.18 | JeffM2501 | wow |
| 22:21.23 | JeffM2501 | that's gota suck :) |
| 22:21.26 | CBG | over 200 servers, only 100 players. That's around afternoon in the UK. |
| 22:21.32 | CBG | so most everyone is working then. |
| 22:21.43 | JeffM2501 | and how many servers had players? |
| 22:21.53 | CBG | dunno... |
| 22:21.58 | JeffM2501 | probably 10 |
| 22:22.12 | JeffM2501 | a better display, like a tab just showing the servers with players, would help |
| 22:22.15 | CBG | but even now, when the majority of the world is home I see only about 250 players to 210(ish) servers |
| 22:22.19 | JeffM2501 | then tabs for leauges, and stuff |
| 22:22.24 | JeffM2501 | help even out the display |
| 22:22.33 | CBG | I am relying on the 'online' data here: http://bzstats.strayer.de/?lang=en for my statistics. |
| 22:22.38 | spldart | I'll be on the 'SLOW' tab :-( |
| 22:22.39 | JeffM2501 | yeah thats why I say it probably averages 1 to 1 |
| 22:22.42 | CBG | tabs would rock. yes. |
| 22:22.55 | spldart | Unless I kill my 1.10 server heh |
| 22:32.01 | spldart | Quite the intellectual conversation goin on about pens in badgerking.fielding. |
| 22:32.06 | spldart | LOL |
| 22:33.07 | CBG | Also the ability to limit the list to include only jumping/non-jumping, ricochet/non-ricochet, superflags/non-superflags, etc in the server-list is a must. |
| 22:34.26 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 22:34.31 | JeffM2501 | filters instead of searches |
| 22:34.37 | *** join/#bzflag luke-jr_ (n=luke-jr@user-0c93tin.cable.mindspring.com) |
| 22:34.42 | luke-jr_ | it *was* bzflag crashing it :( |
| 22:34.47 | luke-jr_ | whenever I try to Connect |
| 22:34.53 | JeffM2501 | I could envision you being able to define your own custom tabs with what ever filter you wanted |
| 22:34.54 | luke-jr_ | it freezes the display |
| 22:35.00 | luke-jr_ | until I reboot |
| 22:35.23 | CBG | JeffM2501: super. but still don't throw out the search... I reckon I'd still use that. |
| 22:35.23 | JeffM2501 | luke-jr_, could be 2 things |
| 22:35.25 | JeffM2501 | crap driver |
| 22:35.26 | luke-jr_ | bzflag itself terminates with an error, but the X server is 100% CPU and frozen |
| 22:35.28 | JeffM2501 | or bad lubcurl |
| 22:35.33 | luke-jr_ | probably the driver =p |
| 22:35.39 | JeffM2501 | CBG, sure, I'd leave a tab as 'search" |
| 22:35.46 | JeffM2501 | then the ability to save off searches as new tabs |
| 22:35.52 | CBG | I can't wait. :) |
| 22:36.11 | luke-jr_ | r200WaitIrq: drmRadeonIrqWait: -16 |
| 22:36.18 | luke-jr_ | That's what's at the terminal when bzflag dies |
| 22:36.19 | JeffM2501 | luke-jr_, don't be too sure, there is a bug in libcurl that causes a crash when joining and trying to authenticate |
| 22:36.27 | JeffM2501 | if you are using a password |
| 22:36.29 | luke-jr_ | JeffM2501: crashes the display driver? |
| 22:36.36 | JeffM2501 | ohh a radeon |
| 22:36.38 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 22:36.41 | luke-jr_ | I can't VT switch even |
| 22:36.49 | JeffM2501 | you using DRI or the ATI drivers? |
| 22:36.51 | luke-jr_ | killall -9 X doesn't do it either |
| 22:36.52 | luke-jr_ | DRI |
| 22:36.58 | JeffM2501 | what card? |
| 22:36.59 | luke-jr_ | 9200 SE |
| 22:37.14 | JeffM2501 | there should be real ATI drivers for that one |
| 22:37.21 | luke-jr_ | I don't use immoral software |
| 22:37.24 | JeffM2501 | they work a lot better from what I have see |
| 22:37.29 | JeffM2501 | ok, then you get buggy software ;) |
| 22:37.34 | JeffM2501 | have fun |
| 22:37.37 | luke-jr_ | it works 90% of the time at least |
| 22:37.44 | luke-jr_ | just not with bzflag I guess |
| 22:37.55 | JeffM2501 | what ever floats your boat |
| 22:37.57 | luke-jr_ | maybe I should give in and upgrade X.org |
| 22:38.07 | JeffM2501 | newer DRI may be better |
| 22:38.12 | luke-jr_ | or would this be part of Linux kernel |
| 22:38.24 | JeffM2501 | it's almost always DRI |
| 22:38.33 | luke-jr_ | is DRI the kernel part or the X.org part? =p |
| 22:38.39 | JeffM2501 | crashes, slowdown, rendreing glitches |
| 22:38.47 | JeffM2501 | DRI is the xorg driver |
| 22:39.06 | luke-jr_ | ok |
| 22:39.14 | luke-jr_ | guess I'll give in to Gentoo and let it update my X |
| 22:39.30 | luke-jr_ | it's been pushing for modular X for a few weeks now |
| 22:40.12 | spldart | why the resistance? |
| 22:40.18 | spldart | I like x.org over old x |
| 22:40.31 | JeffM2501 | x.org is quite nice |
| 22:40.44 | JeffM2501 | I've had a lot less problems with it |
| 22:40.54 | luke-jr_ | spldart: I'm using X.org... just not modular |
| 22:40.54 | JeffM2501 | vid drivers install nice on them |
| 22:40.58 | spldart | I only had the little learning curve then fine |
| 22:40.59 | JeffM2501 | usualy part of the package manager |
| 22:41.05 | spldart | and ati drivers work nicely with it |
| 22:41.10 | luke-jr_ | upgrading to modular X requires uninstalling |
| 22:41.11 | spldart | very VERY few problems |
| 22:41.12 | JeffM2501 | he won't use the ATI drivers |
| 22:41.16 | spldart | oh |
| 22:41.19 | JeffM2501 | he likes bugy ones |
| 22:41.26 | luke-jr_ | I don't like immoral ones, rather |
| 22:41.27 | JeffM2501 | writen by guessing ;) |
| 22:41.36 | luke-jr_ | written from docs, actually |
| 22:41.48 | luke-jr_ | 9200 was when ATi released specs for DRI |
| 22:41.48 | JeffM2501 | yet you sell bandwith ;) |
| 22:41.49 | spldart | well.. I can attest to the effectiveness of the ati drivers... but whateva floats your gpu |
| 22:42.02 | JeffM2501 | then it must be imoral data ;) |
| 22:42.08 | luke-jr_ | JeffM2501: why? |
| 22:42.09 | spldart | lol |
| 22:42.19 | JeffM2501 | well if the drivers they make are imoral |
| 22:42.23 | JeffM2501 | then the data must be as well |
| 22:42.36 | luke-jr_ | what data? |
| 22:42.38 | JeffM2501 | and I'm just pokin fun at ya ;) |
| 22:42.40 | JeffM2501 | the docs |
| 22:42.50 | luke-jr_ | the docs don't have DRM |
| 22:42.59 | JeffM2501 | nor do the drivers IIRC |
| 22:43.04 | JeffM2501 | they are just closed source |
| 22:43.06 | luke-jr_ | closed source is a form of DRM |
| 22:43.13 | JeffM2501 | oh then I write DRM too |
| 22:43.15 | luke-jr_ | it prevents you from modifying it |
| 22:43.23 | JeffM2501 | if you say so |
| 22:44.18 | spldart | I understand your point of view luke-jr... Your just stuck with the simple two choices. buggy....I've been there.. pretty stable and closed source.. oh well |
| 22:44.48 | JeffM2501 | yeah his cal |
| 22:44.51 | JeffM2501 | call even |
| 22:45.11 | JeffM2501 | tho personaly I jsut don't like ATI ;) |
| 22:45.12 | spldart | DArn this imperfect world :mad: |
| 22:45.15 | spldart | hehe |
| 22:45.24 | JeffM2501 | unless it was an 1x00 series |
| 22:45.29 | JeffM2501 | they look to be very nice |
| 22:45.30 | spldart | And I have 6 ATI and 3 Nvidia's myself |
| 22:45.35 | JeffM2501 | new driver core |
| 22:47.24 | luke-jr_ | spldart: actually, I hear AMD might release source for ATi drivers |
| 22:47.32 | spldart | ooOOoo |
| 22:47.43 | JeffM2501 | yeah for some of the older ones |
| 22:47.43 | spldart | Interesting |
| 22:47.51 | JeffM2501 | intel is releaseing the 965's |
| 22:47.53 | spldart | I do have some older ati :) |
| 22:47.59 | JeffM2501 | cus they need geting out some of the suck |
| 22:48.05 | JeffM2501 | need help |
| 22:48.33 | spldart | My two oldest are using opensource drivers on 4.3 as a matter of fact... but my fast machines are all x.org and ati proprietary drivers |
| 22:48.44 | spldart | LOL |
| 22:48.50 | JeffM2501 | the dri drivers are very nice for some of the older cards |
| 22:48.59 | JeffM2501 | well and also the only choice |
| 22:49.26 | JeffM2501 | wonder if somone has redone the comparisons between dri, ATI, and the comercial ones again |
| 22:49.27 | spldart | True but I've found DRI hit and miss.. Mostly hit and rare problems or extremely buggy and pain in my butt |
| 22:49.47 | JeffM2501 | yeah, it all depends how much experience the DRI people have with the card |
| 22:50.01 | JeffM2501 | and I'm not about to go modify drivers, so closed is fine with me |
| 22:50.07 | JeffM2501 | I've got better things to do :) |
| 22:50.14 | spldart | heh |
| 22:50.43 | Mr_Molez | anyone see intel is making their gfx card drivers open source :P |
| 22:50.48 | Mr_Molez | if only ati/nvidia did the same |
| 22:50.55 | JeffM2501 | we just mentioned that |
| 22:50.59 | Mr_Molez | oh sry |
| 22:51.03 | JeffM2501 | and it's only 1 driver |
| 22:51.03 | luke-jr_ | Mr_Molez: ATi/AMD might |
| 22:51.04 | JeffM2501 | not all |
| 22:51.09 | JeffM2501 | just the 965 |
| 22:51.15 | JeffM2501 | luke-jr_, where did you read that? |
| 22:51.19 | luke-jr_ | would I use evdev? |
| 22:51.25 | Mr_Molez | uhh really, wow they make it sound like a big thing |
| 22:51.32 | JeffM2501 | Mr_Molez, it is |
| 22:51.32 | spldart | BTW luke.. if you reconsider ati drivers I'll let you know they have been making great strides in ease of install and setup on linux over the last several months, almost a year. |
| 22:51.42 | luke-jr_ | JeffM2501: dunno, stumbled across it lookin for a game list |
| 22:51.54 | luke-jr_ | spldart: doesn't solve the DRM problem |
| 22:51.57 | *** join/#bzflag zee330 (i=c4d9cdf4@gateway/web/cgi-irc/zeebrothers.net/unlabeled) |
| 22:52.15 | JeffM2501 | only news I've seen is intel |
| 22:52.31 | JeffM2501 | for intel it's a good move |
| 22:52.35 | spldart | Just throwan that tidbit out.. Almost seems they have a better improvement rate than their windoze drivers |
| 22:52.39 | JeffM2501 | they need all the help they can get |
| 22:52.52 | JeffM2501 | and don't realy have any tech anyone would want to steal |
| 22:53.20 | JeffM2501 | I don't think ATI would open source the crosfire stuff, that would be a big loss for them |
| 22:53.23 | Mr_Molez | heh |
| 22:53.45 | luke-jr_ | http://www.infoworld.com/article/06/08/02/32OPcurve_1.html |
| 22:54.19 | JeffM2501 | at least a functional subset of ATI’s graphics drivers |
| 22:54.25 | JeffM2501 | makes sense |
| 22:54.32 | JeffM2501 | pop out the older ones |
| 22:54.34 | JeffM2501 | to help out |
| 22:54.40 | luke-jr_ | spldart: can fglrx be used at the same time as radeon? |
| 22:54.45 | JeffM2501 | I can see both chipset companys doing that |
| 22:54.55 | JeffM2501 | luke-jr_, usualy it's one or the other |
| 22:55.05 | JeffM2501 | you can't use nv and nvidia at the same time |
| 22:55.15 | luke-jr_ | that's due to bad design for the nvidia one, I think |
| 22:55.23 | luke-jr_ | usually people only have 1 X server |
| 22:55.34 | spldart | don't think so luke |
| 22:55.34 | JeffM2501 | well yes, that is true |
| 22:55.42 | JeffM2501 | I've never tried more then one x server |
| 22:55.47 | JeffM2501 | so maybe nvidia works too |
| 22:56.13 | luke-jr_ | JeffM2501: nvidia replaces your GL libs =p |
| 22:56.18 | JeffM2501 | I'll bet the source release is for the 9x00 and lower cards |
| 22:56.25 | JeffM2501 | that they do thankfully |
| 22:56.31 | JeffM2501 | openGL2.0 supporty goodnes! |
| 22:56.43 | JeffM2501 | and extensions |
| 22:56.50 | JeffM2501 | yay for linkable extensions |
| 23:01.23 | luke-jr_ | someone who can should just sue nVidia and ATi |
| 23:01.30 | luke-jr_ | that would solve it |
| 23:01.38 | JeffM2501 | for what? |
| 23:02.14 | luke-jr_ | copyright infringment |
| 23:02.18 | JeffM2501 | of what? |
| 23:02.21 | luke-jr_ | Linux |
| 23:02.25 | spldart | Good grief.. readin that article on amd ati and wondering why there is any question... AMD runs a ATI aftermarket line just to the aftermarket and a AMD line of vid cards for it's OEM market.. same gpu different stickers |
| 23:02.32 | JeffM2501 | what did they steal from linux? |
| 23:02.51 | luke-jr_ | the infringed on the licensing terms Linux is distributed under |
| 23:02.58 | JeffM2501 | no, not realy |
| 23:03.03 | luke-jr_ | they created a derivative work that violates the GPL |
| 23:03.06 | JeffM2501 | LGPL allows linking to closed source |
| 23:03.10 | JeffM2501 | what did they derive? |
| 23:03.11 | luke-jr_ | Linux isn't LGPL |
| 23:03.18 | JeffM2501 | they released the sources to the parts they derived |
| 23:03.25 | JeffM2501 | learn before you spout |
| 23:03.28 | luke-jr_ | in nVidia's case, at least, they have a small source-code wrapper for Linux |
| 23:03.38 | JeffM2501 | the X wraper is open |
| 23:03.43 | JeffM2501 | yeah so that is the part they derived |
| 23:03.49 | luke-jr_ | but it links to GPL-incompatible binary blob |
| 23:03.51 | JeffM2501 | and that fits the liscense |
| 23:03.56 | luke-jr_ | the GPL forbids linking to such |
| 23:03.56 | JeffM2501 | so |
| 23:04.21 | JeffM2501 | I don't think your totlay correct there |
| 23:04.26 | luke-jr_ | ask on LKML ;) |
| 23:04.35 | JeffM2501 | huh? |
| 23:04.44 | luke-jr_ | they do a better job proving it |
| 23:04.49 | luke-jr_ | Linux Kernel Mailing List |
| 23:04.55 | JeffM2501 | but linux isn't distributed with it |
| 23:05.06 | luke-jr_ | the source code wrapper is |
| 23:05.10 | JeffM2501 | so your saying I have to release the source for anything I do on linux? |
| 23:05.12 | JeffM2501 | no it's not |
| 23:05.19 | JeffM2501 | it's not part of the linux kernel |
| 23:05.29 | luke-jr_ | the source wrapper is a derivative work |
| 23:05.33 | luke-jr_ | it uses internal APIs |
| 23:05.49 | JeffM2501 | I think your rather insane |
| 23:05.59 | luke-jr_ | like I said, LKML people do better proving it |
| 23:06.04 | JeffM2501 | nvidia has a LOT of lawers |
| 23:06.13 | JeffM2501 | I think they would have looked into that ;) |
| 23:06.20 | luke-jr_ | I'm sure they did |
| 23:06.28 | JeffM2501 | ohh I can prove 1+1 = 3 |
| 23:06.32 | JeffM2501 | that dosn't mean it's right ;) |
| 23:06.32 | luke-jr_ | and decided they'd more likely get away infringing on Linux's copyright |
| 23:06.38 | luke-jr_ | than infringing on some other companies' |
| 23:06.50 | luke-jr_ | get away with* |
| 23:06.54 | JeffM2501 | there are many companys out there that sell comercial software for linux |
| 23:07.28 | JeffM2501 | and dos't the wraper link to X not the lernel? |
| 23:08.19 | luke-jr_ | the wrapper is a derivative work of Linux (the kernel) |
| 23:08.43 | JeffM2501 | IF it derives the kernel |
| 23:09.10 | JeffM2501 | who holds copyright over the kernel? |
| 23:09.35 | luke-jr_ | lots of people |
| 23:09.50 | luke-jr_ | nobody holds copyright on the whole kernel |
| 23:09.56 | luke-jr_ | everybody just holds bits and pieces |
| 23:10.09 | JeffM2501 | but they let linus oversee it's licensning |
| 23:10.13 | luke-jr_ | no |
| 23:10.21 | luke-jr_ | it's GPL 2 |
| 23:10.25 | luke-jr_ | not even Linus can change it |
| 23:10.40 | JeffM2501 | well he released his source under GPL |
| 23:10.42 | luke-jr_ | for a change or exception, every contributor would need to agree |
| 23:10.43 | JeffM2501 | and people added to it |
| 23:10.48 | JeffM2501 | ahh |
| 23:10.57 | luke-jr_ | some of whom are dead, IIRC |
| 23:11.05 | JeffM2501 | you have any code in the kernel? |
| 23:11.12 | luke-jr_ | nope |
| 23:11.15 | luke-jr_ | too low-level for me |
| 23:11.44 | luke-jr_ | I think the lawsuit might need to come from the person holding copyright on the particular API calls used by the wrapper |
| 23:12.03 | luke-jr_ | maybe |
| 23:12.10 | JeffM2501 | just so they could make Nvidia pull linux support |
| 23:12.20 | luke-jr_ | depends on the court's decision |
| 23:12.29 | luke-jr_ | maybe they can enforce it |
| 23:12.30 | JeffM2501 | the court can not tell nvidia how to run it's biz |
| 23:12.32 | luke-jr_ | that would be my hope |
| 23:12.43 | luke-jr_ | the court can order enforcement of the license terms |
| 23:12.54 | JeffM2501 | at the least they could tell them to relesae the code for the interfaces used in the old drivers |
| 23:13.04 | JeffM2501 | then nvidia could stop doing linux |
| 23:13.06 | luke-jr_ | there might be a problem if abiding by the GPL infringes on someone else's copyright, tho |
| 23:13.07 | JeffM2501 | and be done with it |
| 23:13.31 | JeffM2501 | so you have a posibility of driving a manufacture out of the linux world |
| 23:13.34 | luke-jr_ | better no driver than immoral driver |
| 23:13.36 | JeffM2501 | how does that help you? |
| 23:13.39 | JeffM2501 | HA |
| 23:13.42 | JeffM2501 | if you say so man |
| 23:13.52 | JeffM2501 | so what do you do when all your old hardware breaks? |
| 23:13.56 | luke-jr_ | at least in "no driver" case, people will be interested in revengineering it |
| 23:14.02 | JeffM2501 | if they can |
| 23:14.07 | JeffM2501 | so linux stays buggy |
| 23:14.07 | luke-jr_ | it's been done before |
| 23:14.14 | JeffM2501 | yeah and you have the results |
| 23:14.14 | luke-jr_ | BeOS has open source 3D nvidia drivers |
| 23:14.20 | JeffM2501 | a driver that isn't openGL compliant |
| 23:14.42 | JeffM2501 | then why isn't the linux comunity all over porting those drivers? |
| 23:14.46 | luke-jr_ | nobody cares |
| 23:14.52 | JeffM2501 | exactly |
| 23:14.54 | JeffM2501 | if it works it works |
| 23:14.58 | luke-jr_ | that's the problem |
| 23:15.05 | JeffM2501 | your list people are just a bunch of angry whiners |
| 23:15.16 | JeffM2501 | who probalby don't even have any code in there |
| 23:15.20 | luke-jr_ | actually, some are Linux copyright holders |
| 23:15.24 | luke-jr_ | but can't afford to sue |
| 23:15.40 | luke-jr_ | some would rather keep immoral nVidia drivers than sue |
| 23:15.46 | JeffM2501 | gee and I wonder why people use the lgpl so much now |
| 23:15.50 | JeffM2501 | is the lgpl imoral? |
| 23:16.00 | luke-jr_ | no, but it's more tolerant of immorality |
| 23:17.23 | JeffM2501 | is that bad in your opinon? |
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| 23:18.05 | luke-jr_ | JeffM2501: it has uses |
| 23:18.12 | JeffM2501 | like for? |
| 23:18.13 | luke-jr_ | RMS recommends against using it |
| 23:18.21 | luke-jr_ | like for making a library de-facto standard |
| 23:18.46 | JeffM2501 | you know your using lgpl software when you use bzflag |
| 23:18.53 | luke-jr_ | so? |
| 23:19.01 | JeffM2501 | didn't know if you knew |
| 23:19.16 | luke-jr_ | nothing wrong with the LGPL |
| 23:19.21 | luke-jr_ | it's just not very strict |
| 23:19.27 | JeffM2501 | sounds like what the kernel realy shoulda been |
| 23:19.35 | luke-jr_ | no, then nVidia's driver would be legal |
| 23:19.45 | JeffM2501 | and that is bad |
| 23:19.47 | JeffM2501 | ? |
| 23:19.48 | luke-jr_ | yes |
| 23:19.54 | JeffM2501 | you said the lgpl had it's uses |
| 23:20.03 | JeffM2501 | meaning closed soruce software has it's uses |
| 23:20.06 | luke-jr_ | nope |
| 23:20.15 | JeffM2501 | then why would the lgpl have it's uses |
| 23:20.29 | JeffM2501 | since it would only need to be uses as lgpl in closed source apps |
| 23:20.36 | luke-jr_ | not true |
| 23:20.47 | luke-jr_ | there are open source licenses that are not GPL compatible |
| 23:20.50 | luke-jr_ | like the Apache license |
| 23:20.51 | luke-jr_ | and such |
| 23:20.52 | JeffM2501 | like? |
| 23:20.59 | JeffM2501 | what makes it not compatable? |
| 23:21.05 | luke-jr_ | I don't know, ask a lawyer |
| 23:21.09 | luke-jr_ | or someone who's read the Apache license |
| 23:21.10 | JeffM2501 | hah |
| 23:21.18 | luke-jr_ | it's certainly on the GPL incompatible list |
| 23:21.25 | luke-jr_ | MPL is too, IIRC |
| 23:21.27 | luke-jr_ | QPL also |
| 23:21.56 | JeffM2501 | but many linux systems use apache |
| 23:21.59 | luke-jr_ | so? |
| 23:22.12 | luke-jr_ | Apache isn't a derivative work of, nor link with Linux |
| 23:22.16 | JeffM2501 | ahh |
| 23:22.42 | luke-jr_ | nor does it use such a derivative work |
| 23:23.17 | luke-jr_ | any C program is excempt simply because C is an open API, and it is designed toward C compatiblity and not a single C library |
| 23:23.26 | luke-jr_ | of course, glibc is LGPL anyway, so it doesn't matter there |
| 23:23.57 | JeffM2501 | so as long as it's made in C, you can link to anything? |
| 23:24.08 | luke-jr_ | if Linux had a frozen API, and there were a non-GPL library/kernel that implemented that same API, you would maybe legalize bindings with it |
| 23:24.35 | luke-jr_ | but Linux's interal API does not remain static long enough for that to be possible |
| 23:24.54 | luke-jr_ | JeffM2501: if it's strictly standard C, I think so |
| 23:25.04 | JeffM2501 | seems wierd |
| 23:25.04 | luke-jr_ | note Linux isn't standard C ;p |
| 23:25.36 | JeffM2501 | you get a newer X? |
| 23:25.40 | luke-jr_ | it's installing |
| 23:25.45 | luke-jr_ | 4 of 95 |
| 23:25.53 | JeffM2501 | ahh yeah the gentoo wait |
| 23:25.53 | luke-jr_ | BTW |
| 23:26.00 | JBdiGriz | There's a question of Linux device drivers, and they are mostly standard C. It's the license that makes the difference, not the language. |
| 23:26.10 | luke-jr_ | note the DRI 9200 driver is better than the ATi 9200 driver in some cases |
| 23:26.19 | JeffM2501 | ok |
| 23:26.23 | JeffM2501 | I'm sure it may be |
| 23:26.29 | luke-jr_ | JBdiGriz: actually, they can't be standard C since that doesn't work at kernel level |
| 23:26.53 | luke-jr_ | in particular, they can't use floats, nor normal malloc etc |
| 23:27.35 | JBdiGriz | They do work at kernel level. There is just a known interface for interacting with the kernel. Linus believes they must be GPL. Nvidia disagrees with him. |
| 23:27.47 | luke-jr_ | designing a program toward a standard (C library) allows one to bypass the GPL in some cases |
| 23:28.31 | luke-jr_ | JBdiGriz: the kernel internals change every release |
| 23:28.44 | JBdiGriz | The design of the program has nothing to do with the license. |
| 23:29.59 | JBdiGriz | The kernel API doesn't change with every release. It does change more than it should, however there is documentation which is freely available. |
| 23:30.03 | luke-jr_ | the fact that the internals are not a documented static API means that anything using them is a derivative work |
| 23:30.21 | luke-jr_ | it should change as much as it does, it is a good thing |
| 23:33.02 | JBdiGriz | Check oreilly.com. You'll note that the internals are very well documented. |
| 23:36.39 | luke-jr_ | 22 of 95 |
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| 23:37.05 | *** mode/#bzflag [+v bryjen] by ChanServ |
| 23:38.23 | bryjen | ~slap JBdiGriz |
| 23:38.27 | ibot | ACTION slaps JBdiGriz, keep your grubby fingers to yourself! |
| 23:38.34 | JBdiGriz | ~fishslap bryjen |
| 23:38.36 | ibot | ACTION slaps bryjen up side the head with a wet fish. |
| 23:38.47 | bryjen | ~whaleslap JBdiGriz |
| 23:38.49 | ibot | ACTION beats JBdiGriz upside and over the head with a freakishly huge killer whale named Hugh |
| 23:39.05 | JBdiGriz | ~fling bryjen |
| 23:39.06 | ibot | ACTION flings poo at bryjen |
| 23:39.13 | a_meteorite | ~nuke bryjen |
| 23:39.15 | ibot | ACTION prepares 100 missle silos, and targets them at bryjen ... B☢☢M! |
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| 23:39.50 | luke-jr_ | hm, my IPv6 is down |
| 23:39.55 | luke-jr_ | Topic for #armagetron is 0.2.8.2.1 has been released! |
| 23:39.56 | luke-jr_ | think we have enough digits in our versions? |
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| 23:48.27 | PuMpErNiCkLe | Nope. You need something like this: 0.2.8.2.1RC3beta5 |
| 23:48.53 | spldart | heh |
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