21:30.48 | *** join/#bzflag ibot (i=ibot@pdpc/supporter/active/TimRiker/bot/apt) |
21:30.48 | *** topic/#bzflag is http://BZFlag.org/ || http://cia.navi.cx/stats/project/BZFlag || http://BZFlag.org/wiki/GettingHelp || paste to http://bzflag.pastebin.ca || CVS HEAD is 2.1 UNSTABLE, use for new commits || 2.0.8 is released react acordingly |
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21:42.21 | *** join/#bzflag SpazzyMcGee (n=SpazzyMc@fordend.demon.co.uk) |
21:42.43 | JeffM2501 | nice bush SpazzyMcGee |
21:42.55 | SpazzyMcGee | cheers |
21:43.10 | JeffM2501 | how do they look in game? |
21:43.15 | SpazzyMcGee | lol. that sounds vaguly rude |
21:43.21 | JeffM2501 | I know ;) |
21:43.41 | SpazzyMcGee | they look OK. you can judge for yourself when i get this map done |
21:43.57 | SpazzyMcGee | the blossomy tree looks quite nice |
21:45.16 | JeffM2501 | cool |
21:45.21 | JeffM2501 | they are all done and approved |
21:45.31 | SpazzyMcGee | cheers |
21:47.27 | SpazzyMcGee | hmm... why is it that in my textures directory at images.bzflag.org, there are textures by legolas, TD-Linux and Tadd? |
21:50.11 | JeffM2501 | wierd |
21:50.29 | JeffM2501 | cus I'm guessing there just 'May" be some bugs in the image submiter ;) |
21:50.41 | JeffM2501 | seriously need a dedicated webmonkey |
21:50.48 | SpazzyMcGee | ah |
21:55.57 | CBG | get a leash, JeffM2501. RPG can do all you want... |
21:56.06 | bryjen | ack! that page is mostly one long line when viewed as source :/ |
21:56.30 | QuantumBeep | You've been struck by the evil Unix CRLF. |
21:57.42 | bryjen | CRLF is a DOSism |
21:58.47 | JeffM2501 | I'm sure he can, it's just he dosn't seem to have the time |
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21:59.36 | JeffM2501 | but it's just geting people's time, cus webwork isn't fun |
21:59.46 | bryjen | http://images.bzflag.org/%20sean%20morrison%20/ needs the spaces trimmed off or url encoded in the href |
22:00.15 | bryjen | spacey brlcad |
22:00.42 | ToughShooter | Hmm, does it have a special reason why PlayerState does not have a "Zoned" in the enum? |
22:01.10 | JeffM2501 | cus you can usualy know but the flag |
22:01.17 | JeffM2501 | it would not be a bad thing to add to the state |
22:01.31 | ToughShooter | I could easily compute it, but that would mean adding flag.h to headers |
22:01.35 | JeffM2501 | then you can force peopel to be zoned :) |
22:01.40 | ruskie | O.o |
22:01.42 | ruskie | that would be nice |
22:01.52 | JeffM2501 | I'd make it be set on pickup by the server |
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22:01.59 | JeffM2501 | hmm no it can't |
22:02.01 | ToughShooter | can or can't? |
22:02.12 | bryjen | FlagActive when holding the PZ flag? |
22:02.14 | JeffM2501 | server dosn't know when you port |
22:02.28 | ToughShooter | bryjen: yes that and computing the flag type |
22:02.56 | ToughShooter | pretty easy, I just think about whether a Zoned property makes more sense |
22:04.00 | JeffM2501 | yes it does |
22:04.07 | JeffM2501 | then we can set it based on other stuff later |
22:04.17 | bryjen | no, not if FlagActive is a generic for any special flag being on |
22:04.18 | JeffM2501 | breaking the state from the flags is not a bad thing |
22:04.32 | ToughShooter | It would be messy to compute whether a tank is zoned after every player update |
22:05.01 | ToughShooter | bryjen: FlagActive is true when you use the flags abilities |
22:05.16 | ToughShooter | e.g. it only goes to 1 when you are zoned with PZ |
22:05.25 | JeffM2501 | the PZ flag is "active" based on your position |
22:06.25 | JeffM2501 | personaly I'd like to remove PZ :) |
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22:06.38 | bryjen | you can't be zoned without PZ. |
22:06.44 | bryjen | unless you're cheating ;) |
22:06.49 | JeffM2501 | but you can have PZ and not be zoned |
22:07.11 | bryjen | and then FlagActive is false, correct? |
22:07.20 | JeffM2501 | that is the question |
22:07.34 | ToughShooter | FlagActive is false, when you have PZ but do not went into a tele |
22:07.52 | bryjen | uh-huh... |
22:07.54 | ToughShooter | when you're zoned then FlagActive gets true |
22:07.55 | JeffM2501 | ok so then you set your state when flagactive changes |
22:08.31 | ToughShooter | Computing it is not the problem |
22:08.41 | bryjen | so what you're proposing is a special-case for PZ that dupilcates that so you don't have to do (FlagActive && Flag=PZ) all the time? |
22:08.45 | ToughShooter | Just whether I should add it to PlayerState |
22:08.56 | JeffM2501 | I say yes |
22:09.19 | ToughShooter | bryjen: Actually I get the flagid first and then compute the flag type |
22:09.23 | JeffM2501 | it makes the check easyer ( not the compelex one bryjen shows ) and it lets us set it later |
22:09.47 | ToughShooter | ok, thanks :) |
22:09.57 | JeffM2501 | at a later date we can send a message that sets the state for what ever reason |
22:10.04 | JeffM2501 | yeah it's not THAT complex |
22:10.16 | JeffM2501 | but I like that the usage check is not tied to the flags anymore |
22:10.24 | JeffM2501 | it allows more flex |
22:10.26 | bryjen | DTRemenak: is that like a third nipple? |
22:10.31 | DTRemenak | JeffM2501 just doesn't like flags :) |
22:10.31 | bryjen | either way, ewwwww |
22:10.49 | JeffM2501 | CTF flags are cool ;) |
22:10.54 | DTRemenak | hehe |
22:11.15 | JeffM2501 | a powerup is a powerup by any other name ;) |
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22:11.47 | bryjen | ~spell ambersand |
22:12.00 | JeffM2501 | in the end the client should be just a dumb terminal for game logic |
22:12.13 | JeffM2501 | so any work to start moving twards that goal I say go for it |
22:12.26 | a_meteorite | did I hear "goal"? |
22:12.43 | JeffM2501 | Tim did say I had a plan ;) |
22:13.01 | a_meteorite | heh |
22:13.05 | JeffM2501 | and by some logics that may be taken to say he approves anagrees with my plan :) |
22:13.19 | a_meteorite | a plan, I think that's a first ;) |
22:13.34 | JeffM2501 | my LCD isn't that big |
22:13.39 | JeffM2501 | it's not like a 30 or something |
22:14.27 | JeffM2501 | in the end I think everyone agrees that the client needs todo less game logic, so the server can just send it more info like "your zoned" |
22:14.40 | JeffM2501 | to help prevent cheats, and allow more customisation at the server level |
22:14.43 | a_meteorite | and do checks to make sure it's actually doing what it's told |
22:14.51 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
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22:15.13 | a_meteorite | JeffM2501: it would be neat if the server controlled flag physics so protocol upgrades are not needed too |
22:15.14 | JeffM2501 | like if they shoot and it's not a zoned shot when they are zoned, soething is up |
22:15.14 | a_meteorite | yeah |
22:15.29 | JeffM2501 | a_meteorite, yes, but that means a very generic descriptor for what a flag can do |
22:15.35 | a_meteorite | very true |
22:15.43 | JeffM2501 | I started it once, it got complex rather fast |
22:15.59 | a_meteorite | or maybe even a generic flag with the other flags to allow per-server "special" flags |
22:16.10 | JeffM2501 | you'll still need proto changes at some point, but it lets you customise more on the server |
22:16.14 | a_meteorite | just basic things... momentum.. jump, gravity, etc |
22:16.16 | a_meteorite | yeah |
22:16.17 | JeffM2501 | tho some may say that's a bad thing |
22:16.25 | JeffM2501 | as it could lead to confusion |
22:16.40 | JeffM2501 | but with DTRs popup dialogs we can have servers that teach people how to play :) |
22:16.42 | a_meteorite | I can see n00bs now... "WHY DOESN'T THIS SERVER GOT THIS FLAG??!" ;) |
22:17.07 | a_meteorite | maybe the server can even define it's own states for pop-ups |
22:17.13 | bryjen | the client still needs to know about the game to draw it right, and allow it to predict/assume behavior so it can continue processing without waiting on ACKs from the server all the time. You just can't trust other peoples' client to do ALL the game logic. |
22:17.15 | a_meteorite | for special rules and such |
22:17.41 | JeffM2501 | yeah you have to be able to tell the client how things it needs to predict will behave |
22:17.47 | JeffM2501 | like stuff that moves |
22:17.54 | JeffM2501 | thats where you need a very generic descriptor |
22:18.02 | JeffM2501 | what shot graphic to use, speeds, etc... |
22:18.04 | a_meteorite | like a door for instance? |
22:18.09 | JeffM2501 | no like tanks |
22:18.11 | JeffM2501 | and shots |
22:18.12 | a_meteorite | ah |
22:18.31 | ToughShooter | I like the idea, though |
22:18.39 | JeffM2501 | if the client dosn't have the logic for what each flag does, you have to find a way to tell the client how tanks move and are affected by the flags |
22:18.47 | JeffM2501 | so that it can predict it right |
22:18.57 | ToughShooter | An EU flag where one could not shoot his teammates and could not get shot by them sounds cool :) |
22:19.02 | a_meteorite | I think I took bzfs too the max yesterday - 100 bots on a seperate computers brought my k6-2 400mhz to 70% cpu :) |
22:19.09 | JeffM2501 | so you need a more complex state that you send, telling a client that "this tank will be faster then normal" |
22:19.10 | a_meteorite | (s/computers/computer/) correction: I think I took bzfs too the max yesterday - 100 bots on a seperate computer brought my k6-2 400mhz to 70% cpu :) |
22:19.36 | a_meteorite | yeah |
22:19.48 | a_meteorite | so there would be a lot of variables to factor in to know how the flag works... |
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22:21.01 | a_meteorite | imho, I don't think 2.2 should be released until more of the more major stuff (shots, pausing, etc) are done server-side |
22:21.38 | a_meteorite | but I'm a little old humble person so take it as a grain of salt ;) |
22:21.46 | JeffM2501 | gonna be a lot of work, somone has to do the big parts |
22:21.52 | JeffM2501 | and noone has steped up yet |
22:21.55 | JeffM2501 | but we'll see |
22:21.59 | ToughShooter | a_meteorite: Actually pausing is now more controlled than in 2.0.x |
22:22.16 | a_meteorite | it's a big job, but everyone would bow down to the person who did it :) |
22:22.24 | a_meteorite | ToughShooter: that's a step :) |
22:22.25 | ToughShooter | Cheating itself is much easier than to prevent it |
22:22.31 | a_meteorite | yeah |
22:22.39 | a_meteorite | and then you have to factor in lag |
22:22.45 | a_meteorite | which makes it that more complicated |
22:22.55 | ToughShooter | The cheater needs one way to do it, the server has to check for all ways |
22:23.02 | a_meteorite | mmhmm |
22:23.22 | a_meteorite | I still think Jeff has magic powers and can snap his fingers and make it all work :P |
22:23.32 | a_meteorite | heh, just kidding ;) |
22:24.18 | spldart | 100 bots eh.. hrm |
22:24.52 | a_meteorite | probably cause each bot is a separate connection |
22:25.05 | a_meteorite | that was on 2.0.8 though |
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22:26.04 | a_meteorite | I like torturing old hardware :) |
22:26.46 | spldart | interesting to know for it's own sake but also I server 3 instances of bzfs on a k6 2 500 along with samba and apache |
22:27.12 | a_meteorite | spldart: how much does bzfs use with 100 bots on yours? |
22:27.19 | JeffM2501 | 100 bots on 2.1 would just make them die :) |
22:27.25 | a_meteorite | hehe |
22:27.29 | JeffM2501 | cus it would flood out the one connection |
22:27.35 | JeffM2501 | unless they were server side |
22:27.41 | spldart | I've never tried it. that's why I was interested |
22:27.44 | a_meteorite | JeffM2501: has it changed over in 2.1 to one connection yet? |
22:27.52 | a_meteorite | I see |
22:28.00 | spldart | did you use multiple instances of client? |
22:28.06 | a_meteorite | spldart: no |
22:28.15 | spldart | I've only had maybe 20 or so players at once |
22:28.46 | a_meteorite | it was on a local lan too, I don't know how you would flood the one connection except for the fact bzfs couldn't handle that many updates over one connection? |
22:28.50 | DTRemenak | spldart: I ran all of the dtremenak.bakadigital.com servers on a k6-200. 8 servers, up to around 50 players. Along with apache, mrtg, and some other services. |
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22:29.33 | a_meteorite | I wish my mobo would let me OC it... with some better cooling I bet it would OC fine |
22:29.42 | spldart | samba and any building is the only time I see any loading |
22:29.43 | DTRemenak | never got over 0.3 load average, except when I was compiling things |
22:30.10 | a_meteorite | DTRemenak: were you running X? |
22:30.13 | spldart | I've gotta try that experiment myself though hehehehe |
22:30.13 | DTRemenak | heck no |
22:30.19 | DTRemenak | why would I run x on a headless server? :) |
22:30.21 | a_meteorite | just moving my mouse in xfce made X spike to 50% usage |
22:30.23 | a_meteorite | lol |
22:30.23 | spldart | screens? |
22:30.31 | DTRemenak | yup |
22:30.39 | spldart | I love screens for server |
22:30.53 | a_meteorite | I don't know what I would do without screen |
22:30.53 | JeffM2501 | screen is godlike |
22:31.08 | spldart | and only demigods use it |
22:31.09 | spldart | hehehe |
22:31.16 | JeffM2501 | DTRemenak, found a legit reason to do server side "rooms" :) |
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22:31.25 | DTRemenak | oh rly? |
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22:31.35 | JeffM2501 | so that the tutorial servers can let you be private, then dump you into a public group |
22:31.43 | JeffM2501 | to play against real players |
22:31.50 | DTRemenak | dang, that IS a good reason |
22:32.01 | JeffM2501 | and I think we can do it server side only |
22:32.05 | DTRemenak | yeah |
22:32.08 | JeffM2501 | just don't send the other players |
22:32.35 | JeffM2501 | so once they do the tutorial you can respawn them and add them to the ongoing game against real players and server side bots |
22:34.01 | JeffM2501 | if you wanted to get realy tricky, you coudl save off the bzids of the players who have finshed the tutorial and then ask them if they want to just join the open play when they come back |
22:34.14 | JeffM2501 | this is why I think it will use the dialog popups a lot |
22:34.31 | JeffM2501 | server side messages that can get back a "yes/no" responce to the plugin are a must |
22:35.13 | DTRemenak | hm, that'll be interesting. I wasn't planning on client-server feedback, but it can be done. |
22:35.18 | JeffM2501 | then server side bots can ask "shall we play a game?" |
22:35.33 | DTRemenak | how about "global thermonuclear war"? |
22:35.38 | JeffM2501 | yeah I know you weren't but once I have the display cabiility it shoudl be easy to add more uses of it |
22:35.47 | DTRemenak | yup |
22:36.27 | JeffM2501 | also thinking of making an admin command that forces a popup that requires user entry to clear |
22:36.35 | JeffM2501 | so you can realy warn people and make sure they know |
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22:36.54 | JeffM2501 | combined with a "no move" and "no shoot" message I think it'll get some points across |
22:37.11 | DTRemenak | to me that sounds intrusive and easily abused |
22:37.17 | JeffM2501 | possibly |
22:37.22 | JeffM2501 | it's a maybe thing |
22:37.30 | DTRemenak | otoh, maybe what we need is some easily abused stuff so people stop playing on poorly adminned servers |
22:37.31 | JeffM2501 | the tutorials will need the tech to work tho |
22:37.44 | JeffM2501 | sadly that would probably help :) |
22:38.11 | JeffM2501 | once the plugins have the tech, then we could leave it up to a plugin to make a / command for warn then. |
22:38.16 | JeffM2501 | large barier to entry |
22:38.53 | JeffM2501 | but tutorials will need to stop people from moving for some time to explains stuff like bases, and bad flags |
22:39.28 | DTRemenak | yeah |
22:39.46 | JBdiGriz | OTOH, admins sometimes need to be intrusive, and people will leave sites where admins are abusive. |
22:40.07 | DTRemenak | JBdiGriz: that was part of my point...let them be abusive, and people will stop playing there :) |
22:40.20 | JBdiGriz | I think that has already happened. :D |
22:40.45 | JeffM2501 | think we can get down to 50 servers? |
22:41.13 | DTRemenak | no |
22:41.17 | JeffM2501 | damn |
22:41.20 | JBdiGriz | We can easily get down to 50 servers with more than 2 people playing. I don't think we are much above 20 right now. |
22:41.35 | JeffM2501 | yeah loads of inactives |
22:41.56 | JBdiGriz | We need a way of adding client level filters to the server display. |
22:42.07 | JeffM2501 | very much so |
22:42.22 | JeffM2501 | a flat list isn't the best way to display all our list data |
22:42.42 | JBdiGriz | And a way of importing those filters into the client. Server owners can publish filters on the forums. |
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22:44.16 | JeffM2501 | trees |
22:44.20 | JeffM2501 | lots of trees |
22:44.30 | SpazzyMcGee | lol |
22:44.34 | SpazzyMcGee | speaking of trees |
22:44.40 | JeffM2501 | and tabs |
22:45.00 | SpazzyMcGee | my new map beta is up at spazzy.blackhole.cx:4500 |
22:46.08 | JBdiGriz | Is it an approved plan? |
22:47.05 | JeffM2501 | umm sure |
22:47.25 | JeffM2501 | I have talked about it with tim, he did not seem to have any problem with it |
22:47.37 | JeffM2501 | tho I'd like to mock it up first and get opinions |
22:47.39 | JeffM2501 | just need time |
22:47.50 | JBdiGriz | Time is an illusion. |
22:48.15 | JeffM2501 | lunchtime doubly so |
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22:52.39 | CBG` | JeffM2501: nice quote :) |
22:52.49 | JeffM2501 | I don't think I got it right |
22:53.03 | CBG | close enough for a fan to recognise |
22:53.08 | CBG | you read all 5 books? |
22:53.11 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
22:53.30 | CBG | I' on my 3rd time around, on the 3rd one atm. |
22:53.50 | JeffM2501 | the movie is what triggered it for me that time tho |
22:54.03 | CBG | Though i've not read any since I started sleeping from 4AM to midday. |
22:54.10 | CBG | The recent movie, right? |
22:54.13 | JeffM2501 | yes |
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22:54.39 | CBG | I heard the old TV series was better |
22:54.43 | JeffM2501 | it wans't |
22:54.59 | CBG | I've been meaning to watch it, perhaps ebay will have some VHS tapes. |
22:55.03 | JeffM2501 | it hit more of the books plot points ( for what plot they have ) |
22:55.16 | CBG | heh :) |
22:55.18 | JeffM2501 | but it's production quality and acting leaves much to be desired |
22:55.24 | CBG | yeah, the movie did kind of wander off a little |
22:55.28 | JeffM2501 | the movie is a good ataption of the concepts of it |
22:55.33 | JeffM2501 | I liked the movie |
22:55.34 | CBG | yeah, thats true |
22:55.37 | JBdiGriz | You should have come down for Comic Con. |
22:55.48 | JeffM2501 | it's not a book that makes a good transiiton to film |
22:55.56 | JBdiGriz | I wasn't that fond of the movie. It's better as a book. |
22:55.58 | CBG | heh, ya think? |
22:56.03 | JeffM2501 | JBdiGriz, I was going to, but I had to go out to AZ to see the parents this weekend |
22:56.12 | JeffM2501 | yes it is better as a book |
22:56.12 | CBG | a dude with 2 heads and 3 arms as one of the main characters..? ;) |
22:56.20 | JeffM2501 | but out of the 2 visual adaptions, I prefered the movie |
22:56.23 | JBdiGriz | So take the southern scenic route via I8. :) |
22:56.28 | QuantumBeep | The Mattresses of Squornshellous Zeta are the coolest thing ever. |
22:56.40 | JeffM2501 | flagstaff, not pheonix |
22:56.56 | CBG | QuantumBeep: too true. |
22:57.00 | JeffM2501 | sadly it's all about barstow |
22:57.10 | JeffM2501 | and 10 hours is enough of a drive :) |
22:57.36 | JeffM2501 | I prefered the actors in the movie to the ones in the BBC series |
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22:58.01 | QuantumBeep | The chich that play Trillian was beyond hot. |
22:58.11 | JeffM2501 | tho I prefered the music in the bbc series |
22:58.18 | CBG | ... :) |
22:58.45 | CBG | Martin Freeman was the perfect actor for Arthur Dent, it has to be said. :) |
22:59.20 | JeffM2501 | all the actors were good choices |
22:59.27 | QuantumBeep | Absolutely. I think he was born for the part. |
22:59.43 | JeffM2501 | well no he was born to play Tim |
22:59.51 | JeffM2501 | thankfully Tim is an arthur clone :) |
23:00.11 | QuantumBeep | ...and the Humma Kuvula character is actually good... amazing since he's nowhere in the book at all. |
23:00.14 | CBG | heh.. |
23:01.04 | CBG | <Marvin> I think you ought to know I'm feeling very depressed. |
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23:03.44 | CBG | Ford: You're looking for the Ultimate Question. Zaphod: Yep. Ford: You. Zaphod: Me. Ford: Why? Zaphod: No, I tried that: Why? 42. Doesn't work. |
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23:17.31 | spldart | Is The Digital Pioneer in teh hizzy |
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23:41.45 | *** join/#bzflag halo3 (n=halo3@72.241.32.30) |
23:42.22 | halo3 | thumper |
23:43.13 | spldart | what was the switch to turn on bots in client? |
23:43.24 | spldart | haven't done bots in almost a year |
23:43.30 | CBG | spldart: -solo # ? |
23:43.36 | halo3 | enter in the target -solo number of bots |
23:43.37 | spldart | thanks |
23:43.42 | halo3 | np |
23:44.29 | *** part/#bzflag halo3 (n=halo3@72.241.32.30) |
23:44.55 | *** join/#bzflag shorty114 (n=shorty11@unaffiliated/shorty114) |
23:46.39 | *** join/#bzflag L4m3r (n=l4m3r@ip68-109-194-101.pv.oc.cox.net) |
23:48.00 | spldart | -offa switch works in 2.0.9 as well as the 2.1.x ? |
23:48.25 | *** join/#bzflag lan56 (i=lan56@adsl-75-5-10-168.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) |
23:49.43 | spldart | oops.. perhaps it's a new for 2.1.x feature |
23:51.54 | CIA-6 | BZFlag: 03lan56 * 10bzflag/Dev-C++/bzflag.dev: add HUD*.cxx files that were missing |
23:53.01 | *** join/#bzflag [shorty114] (n=shorty11@unaffiliated/shorty114) |
23:55.32 | JeffM2501 | it is |
23:56.18 | spldart | hehe |
23:56.39 | spldart | I'm working on my maps and ooops |
23:57.21 | JeffM2501 | it's a bad name |
23:57.37 | CIA-6 | BZFlag: 03lan56 07v2_0branch * 10bzflag/Dev-C++/ (bzflag.dev bzfs.dev): add BZDBLocal.cxx, remove "date" subfolder from BZFS.dev |
23:57.45 | JeffM2501 | it so needs to be called deathmatch and team deahtmatch |
23:59.19 | *** join/#bzflag big_daddy2 (i=big_dadd@72.241.38.8) |
23:59.39 | big_daddy2 | can any 1 host me a server on bzflag???? |