irclog2html for #bzflag on 20060725

21:30.48*** join/#bzflag ibot (i=ibot@pdpc/supporter/active/TimRiker/bot/apt)
21:30.48*** topic/#bzflag is http://BZFlag.org/ || http://cia.navi.cx/stats/project/BZFlag || http://BZFlag.org/wiki/GettingHelp || paste to http://bzflag.pastebin.ca || CVS HEAD is 2.1 UNSTABLE, use for new commits || 2.0.8 is released react acordingly
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21:42.21*** join/#bzflag SpazzyMcGee (n=SpazzyMc@fordend.demon.co.uk)
21:42.43JeffM2501nice bush SpazzyMcGee
21:42.55SpazzyMcGeecheers
21:43.10JeffM2501how do they look in game?
21:43.15SpazzyMcGeelol. that sounds vaguly rude
21:43.21JeffM2501I know ;)
21:43.41SpazzyMcGeethey look OK. you can judge for yourself when i get this map done
21:43.57SpazzyMcGeethe blossomy tree looks quite nice
21:45.16JeffM2501cool
21:45.21JeffM2501they are all done and approved
21:45.31SpazzyMcGeecheers
21:47.27SpazzyMcGeehmm... why is it that in my textures directory at images.bzflag.org, there are textures by legolas, TD-Linux and Tadd?
21:50.11JeffM2501wierd
21:50.29JeffM2501cus I'm guessing there just 'May" be some bugs in the image submiter ;)
21:50.41JeffM2501seriously need a dedicated webmonkey
21:50.48SpazzyMcGeeah
21:55.57CBGget a leash, JeffM2501. RPG can do all you want...
21:56.06bryjenack! that page is mostly one long line when viewed as source :/
21:56.30QuantumBeepYou've been struck by the evil Unix CRLF.
21:57.42bryjenCRLF is a DOSism
21:58.47JeffM2501I'm sure he can, it's just he dosn't seem to have the time
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21:59.36JeffM2501but it's just geting people's time, cus webwork isn't fun
21:59.46bryjenhttp://images.bzflag.org/%20sean%20morrison%20/  needs the spaces trimmed off or url encoded in the href
22:00.15bryjenspacey brlcad
22:00.42ToughShooterHmm, does it have a special reason why PlayerState does not have a "Zoned" in the enum?
22:01.10JeffM2501cus you can usualy know but the flag
22:01.17JeffM2501it would not be a bad thing to add to the state
22:01.31ToughShooterI could easily compute it, but that would mean adding flag.h to headers
22:01.35JeffM2501then you can force peopel to be zoned :)
22:01.40ruskieO.o
22:01.42ruskiethat would be nice
22:01.52JeffM2501I'd make it be set on pickup by the server
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22:01.59JeffM2501hmm no it can't
22:02.01ToughShootercan or can't?
22:02.12bryjenFlagActive when holding the PZ flag?
22:02.14JeffM2501server dosn't know when you port
22:02.28ToughShooterbryjen: yes that and computing the flag type
22:02.56ToughShooterpretty easy, I just think about whether a Zoned property makes more sense
22:04.00JeffM2501yes it does
22:04.07JeffM2501then we can set it based on other stuff later
22:04.17bryjenno, not if FlagActive is a generic for any special flag being on
22:04.18JeffM2501breaking the state from the flags is not a bad thing
22:04.32ToughShooterIt would be messy to compute whether a tank is zoned after every player update
22:05.01ToughShooterbryjen: FlagActive is true when you use the flags abilities
22:05.16ToughShootere.g. it only goes to 1 when you are zoned with PZ
22:05.25JeffM2501the PZ flag is "active" based on your position
22:06.25JeffM2501personaly I'd like to remove PZ :)
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22:06.38bryjenyou can't be zoned without PZ.
22:06.44bryjenunless you're cheating ;)
22:06.49JeffM2501but you can have PZ and not be zoned
22:07.11bryjenand then FlagActive is false, correct?
22:07.20JeffM2501that is the question
22:07.34ToughShooterFlagActive is false, when you have PZ but do not went into a tele
22:07.52bryjenuh-huh...
22:07.54ToughShooterwhen you're zoned then FlagActive gets true
22:07.55JeffM2501ok so then you set your state when flagactive changes
22:08.31ToughShooterComputing it is not the problem
22:08.41bryjenso what you're proposing is a special-case for PZ that dupilcates that so you don't have to do (FlagActive && Flag=PZ) all the time?
22:08.45ToughShooterJust whether I should add it to PlayerState
22:08.56JeffM2501I say yes
22:09.19ToughShooterbryjen: Actually I get the flagid first and then compute the flag type
22:09.23JeffM2501it makes the check easyer ( not the compelex one bryjen shows ) and it lets us set it later
22:09.47ToughShooterok, thanks :)
22:09.57JeffM2501at a later date we can send a message that sets the state for what ever reason
22:10.04JeffM2501yeah it's not THAT complex
22:10.16JeffM2501but I like that the usage check is not tied to the flags anymore
22:10.24JeffM2501it allows more flex
22:10.26bryjenDTRemenak: is that like a third nipple?
22:10.31DTRemenakJeffM2501 just doesn't like flags :)
22:10.31bryjeneither way, ewwwww
22:10.49JeffM2501CTF flags are cool ;)
22:10.54DTRemenakhehe
22:11.15JeffM2501a powerup is a powerup by any other name ;)
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22:11.47bryjen~spell ambersand
22:12.00JeffM2501in the end the client should be just a dumb terminal for game logic
22:12.13JeffM2501so any work to start moving twards that goal I say go for it
22:12.26a_meteoritedid I hear "goal"?
22:12.43JeffM2501Tim did say I had a plan ;)
22:13.01a_meteoriteheh
22:13.05JeffM2501and by some logics that may be taken to say he approves anagrees with my plan :)
22:13.19a_meteoritea plan, I think that's a first ;)
22:13.34JeffM2501my LCD isn't that big
22:13.39JeffM2501it's not like a 30 or something
22:14.27JeffM2501in the end I think everyone agrees that the client needs todo less game logic, so the server can just send it more info like "your zoned"
22:14.40JeffM2501to help prevent cheats, and allow more customisation at the server level
22:14.43a_meteoriteand do checks to make sure it's actually doing what it's told
22:14.51JeffM2501yeah
22:14.57*** join/#bzflag shorty114 (n=shorty11@unaffiliated/shorty114)
22:15.13a_meteoriteJeffM2501: it would be neat if the server controlled flag physics so protocol upgrades are not needed too
22:15.14JeffM2501like if they shoot and it's not a zoned shot when they are zoned, soething is up
22:15.14a_meteoriteyeah
22:15.29JeffM2501a_meteorite, yes, but that means a very generic descriptor for what a flag can do
22:15.35a_meteoritevery true
22:15.43JeffM2501I started it once, it got complex rather fast
22:15.59a_meteoriteor maybe even a generic flag with the other flags to allow per-server "special" flags
22:16.10JeffM2501you'll still need proto changes at some point, but it lets you customise more on the server
22:16.14a_meteoritejust basic things... momentum.. jump, gravity, etc
22:16.16a_meteoriteyeah
22:16.17JeffM2501tho some may say that's a bad thing
22:16.25JeffM2501as it could lead to confusion
22:16.40JeffM2501but with DTRs popup dialogs we can have servers that teach people how to play :)
22:16.42a_meteoriteI can see n00bs now... "WHY DOESN'T THIS SERVER GOT THIS FLAG??!" ;)
22:17.07a_meteoritemaybe the server can even define it's own states for pop-ups
22:17.13bryjenthe client still needs to know about the game to draw it right, and allow it to predict/assume behavior so it can continue processing without waiting on ACKs from the server all the time.  You just can't trust other peoples' client to do ALL the game logic.
22:17.15a_meteoritefor special rules and such
22:17.41JeffM2501yeah you have to be able to tell the client how things it needs to predict will behave
22:17.47JeffM2501like stuff that moves
22:17.54JeffM2501thats where you need a very generic descriptor
22:18.02JeffM2501what shot graphic to use, speeds, etc...
22:18.04a_meteoritelike a door for instance?
22:18.09JeffM2501no like tanks
22:18.11JeffM2501and shots
22:18.12a_meteoriteah
22:18.31ToughShooterI like the idea, though
22:18.39JeffM2501if the client dosn't have the logic for what each flag does, you have to find a way to tell the client how tanks move and are affected by the flags
22:18.47JeffM2501so that it can predict it right
22:18.57ToughShooterAn EU flag where one could not shoot his teammates and could not get shot by them sounds cool :)
22:19.02a_meteoriteI think I took bzfs too the max yesterday - 100 bots on a seperate computers brought my k6-2 400mhz to 70% cpu :)
22:19.09JeffM2501so you need a more complex state that you send, telling a client that "this tank will be faster then normal"
22:19.10a_meteorite(s/computers/computer/) correction: I think I took bzfs too the max yesterday - 100 bots on a seperate computer brought my k6-2 400mhz to 70% cpu :)
22:19.36a_meteoriteyeah
22:19.48a_meteoriteso there would be a lot of variables to factor in to know how the flag works...
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22:21.01a_meteoriteimho, I don't think 2.2 should be released until more of the more major stuff (shots, pausing, etc) are done server-side
22:21.38a_meteoritebut I'm a little old humble person so take it as a grain of salt ;)
22:21.46JeffM2501gonna be a lot of work, somone has to do the big parts
22:21.52JeffM2501and noone has steped up yet
22:21.55JeffM2501but we'll see
22:21.59ToughShootera_meteorite: Actually pausing is now more controlled than in 2.0.x
22:22.16a_meteoriteit's a big job, but everyone would bow down to the person who did it :)
22:22.24a_meteoriteToughShooter: that's a step :)
22:22.25ToughShooterCheating itself is much easier than to prevent it
22:22.31a_meteoriteyeah
22:22.39a_meteoriteand then you have to factor in lag
22:22.45a_meteoritewhich makes it that more complicated
22:22.55ToughShooterThe cheater needs one way to do it, the server has to check for all ways
22:23.02a_meteoritemmhmm
22:23.22a_meteoriteI still think Jeff has magic powers and can snap his fingers and make it all work :P
22:23.32a_meteoriteheh, just kidding ;)
22:24.18spldart100 bots eh.. hrm
22:24.52a_meteoriteprobably cause each bot is a separate connection
22:25.05a_meteoritethat was on 2.0.8 though
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22:26.04a_meteoriteI like torturing old hardware :)
22:26.46spldartinteresting to know for it's own sake but also I server 3 instances of bzfs on a k6 2 500 along with samba and apache
22:27.12a_meteoritespldart: how much does bzfs use with 100 bots on yours?
22:27.19JeffM2501100 bots on 2.1 would just make them die :)
22:27.25a_meteoritehehe
22:27.29JeffM2501cus it would flood out the one connection
22:27.35JeffM2501unless they were server side
22:27.41spldartI've never tried it. that's why I was interested
22:27.44a_meteoriteJeffM2501: has it changed over in 2.1 to one connection yet?
22:27.52a_meteoriteI see
22:28.00spldartdid you use multiple instances of client?
22:28.06a_meteoritespldart: no
22:28.15spldartI've only had maybe 20 or so players at once
22:28.46a_meteoriteit was on a local lan too, I don't know how you would flood the one connection except for the fact bzfs couldn't handle that many updates over one connection?
22:28.50DTRemenakspldart: I ran all of the dtremenak.bakadigital.com servers on a k6-200.  8 servers, up to around 50 players.  Along with apache, mrtg, and some other services.
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22:29.33a_meteoriteI wish my mobo would let me OC it... with some better cooling I bet it would OC fine
22:29.42spldartsamba and any building is the only time I see any loading
22:29.43DTRemenaknever got over 0.3 load average, except when I was compiling things
22:30.10a_meteoriteDTRemenak: were you running X?
22:30.13spldartI've gotta try that experiment myself though hehehehe
22:30.13DTRemenakheck no
22:30.19DTRemenakwhy would I run x on a headless server? :)
22:30.21a_meteoritejust moving my mouse in xfce made X spike to 50% usage
22:30.23a_meteoritelol
22:30.23spldartscreens?
22:30.31DTRemenakyup
22:30.39spldartI love screens for server
22:30.53a_meteoriteI don't know what I would do without screen
22:30.53JeffM2501screen is godlike
22:31.08spldartand only demigods use it
22:31.09spldarthehehe
22:31.16JeffM2501DTRemenak, found a legit reason to do server side "rooms" :)
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22:31.25DTRemenakoh rly?
22:31.32*** part/#bzflag Guest849 (n=3eb26b18@zeebrothers.net)
22:31.35JeffM2501so that the tutorial servers can let you be private, then dump you into a public group
22:31.43JeffM2501to play against real players
22:31.50DTRemenakdang, that IS a good reason
22:32.01JeffM2501and I think we can do it server side only
22:32.05DTRemenakyeah
22:32.08JeffM2501just don't send the other players
22:32.35JeffM2501so once they do the tutorial you can respawn them and add them to the ongoing game against real players and server side bots
22:34.01JeffM2501if you wanted to get realy tricky, you coudl save off the bzids of the players who have finshed the tutorial and then ask them if they want to just join the open play when they come back
22:34.14JeffM2501this is why I think it will use the dialog popups a lot
22:34.31JeffM2501server side messages that can get back a "yes/no" responce to the plugin are a must
22:35.13DTRemenakhm, that'll be interesting.  I wasn't planning on client-server feedback, but it can be done.
22:35.18JeffM2501then server side bots can ask "shall we play a game?"
22:35.33DTRemenakhow about "global thermonuclear war"?
22:35.38JeffM2501yeah I know you weren't but once I have the display cabiility it shoudl be easy to add more uses of it
22:35.47DTRemenakyup
22:36.27JeffM2501also thinking of making an admin command that forces a popup that requires user entry to clear
22:36.35JeffM2501so you can realy warn people and make sure they know
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22:36.54JeffM2501combined with a "no move" and "no shoot" message I think it'll get some points across
22:37.11DTRemenakto me that sounds intrusive and easily abused
22:37.17JeffM2501possibly
22:37.22JeffM2501it's a maybe thing
22:37.30DTRemenakotoh, maybe what we need is some easily abused stuff so people stop playing on poorly adminned servers
22:37.31JeffM2501the tutorials will need the tech to work tho
22:37.44JeffM2501sadly that would probably help :)
22:38.11JeffM2501once the plugins have the tech, then we could leave it up to a plugin to make a / command for warn then.
22:38.16JeffM2501large barier to entry
22:38.53JeffM2501but tutorials will need to stop people from moving for some time to explains stuff like bases, and bad flags
22:39.28DTRemenakyeah
22:39.46JBdiGrizOTOH, admins sometimes need to be intrusive, and people will leave sites where admins are abusive.
22:40.07DTRemenakJBdiGriz: that was part of my point...let them be abusive, and people will stop playing there :)
22:40.20JBdiGrizI think that has already happened. :D
22:40.45JeffM2501think we can get down to 50 servers?
22:41.13DTRemenakno
22:41.17JeffM2501damn
22:41.20JBdiGrizWe can easily get down to 50 servers with more than 2 people playing. I don't think we are much above 20 right now.
22:41.35JeffM2501yeah loads of inactives
22:41.56JBdiGrizWe need a way of adding client level filters to the server display.
22:42.07JeffM2501very much so
22:42.22JeffM2501a flat list isn't the best way to display all our list data
22:42.42JBdiGrizAnd a way of importing those filters into the client. Server owners can publish filters on the forums.
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22:44.16JeffM2501trees
22:44.20JeffM2501lots of trees
22:44.30SpazzyMcGeelol
22:44.34SpazzyMcGeespeaking of trees
22:44.40JeffM2501and tabs
22:45.00SpazzyMcGeemy new map beta is up at spazzy.blackhole.cx:4500
22:46.08JBdiGrizIs it an approved plan?
22:47.05JeffM2501umm sure
22:47.25JeffM2501I have talked about it with tim, he did not seem to have any problem with it
22:47.37JeffM2501tho I'd like to mock it up first and get opinions
22:47.39JeffM2501just need time
22:47.50JBdiGrizTime is an illusion.
22:48.15JeffM2501lunchtime doubly so
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22:52.39CBG`JeffM2501: nice quote :)
22:52.49JeffM2501I don't think I got it right
22:53.03CBGclose enough for a fan to recognise
22:53.08CBGyou read all 5 books?
22:53.11JeffM2501yeah
22:53.30CBGI' on my 3rd time around, on the 3rd one atm.
22:53.50JeffM2501the movie is what triggered it for me that time tho
22:54.03CBGThough i've not read any since I started sleeping from 4AM to midday.
22:54.10CBGThe recent movie, right?
22:54.13JeffM2501yes
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22:54.39CBGI heard the old TV series was better
22:54.43JeffM2501it wans't
22:54.59CBGI've been meaning to watch it, perhaps ebay will have some VHS tapes.
22:55.03JeffM2501it hit more of the books plot points ( for what plot they have )
22:55.16CBGheh :)
22:55.18JeffM2501but it's production quality and acting leaves much to be desired
22:55.24CBGyeah, the movie did kind of wander off a little
22:55.28JeffM2501the movie is a good ataption of the concepts of it
22:55.33JeffM2501I liked the movie
22:55.34CBGyeah, thats true
22:55.37JBdiGrizYou should have come down for Comic Con.
22:55.48JeffM2501it's not a book that makes a good transiiton to film
22:55.56JBdiGrizI wasn't that fond of the movie. It's better as a book.
22:55.58CBGheh, ya think?
22:56.03JeffM2501JBdiGriz, I was going to, but I had to go out to AZ to see the parents this weekend
22:56.12JeffM2501yes it is better as a book
22:56.12CBGa dude with 2 heads and 3 arms as one of the main characters..? ;)
22:56.20JeffM2501but out of the 2 visual adaptions, I prefered the movie
22:56.23JBdiGrizSo take the southern scenic route via I8. :)
22:56.28QuantumBeepThe Mattresses of Squornshellous Zeta are the coolest thing ever.
22:56.40JeffM2501flagstaff, not pheonix
22:56.56CBGQuantumBeep: too true.
22:57.00JeffM2501sadly it's all about barstow
22:57.10JeffM2501and 10 hours is enough of a drive :)
22:57.36JeffM2501I prefered the actors in the movie to the ones in the BBC series
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22:58.01QuantumBeepThe chich that play Trillian was beyond hot.
22:58.11JeffM2501tho I prefered the music in the bbc series
22:58.18CBG... :)
22:58.45CBGMartin Freeman was the perfect actor for Arthur Dent, it has to be said. :)
22:59.20JeffM2501all the actors were good choices
22:59.27QuantumBeepAbsolutely. I think he was born for the part.
22:59.43JeffM2501well no he was born to play Tim
22:59.51JeffM2501thankfully Tim is an arthur clone :)
23:00.11QuantumBeep...and the Humma Kuvula character is actually good... amazing since he's nowhere in the book at all.
23:00.14CBGheh..
23:01.04CBG<Marvin> I think you ought to know I'm feeling very depressed.
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23:03.44CBGFord: You're looking for the Ultimate Question.    Zaphod: Yep.    Ford: You.    Zaphod: Me.    Ford: Why?    Zaphod: No, I tried that: Why? 42. Doesn't work.
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23:17.31spldartIs The Digital Pioneer in teh hizzy
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23:42.22halo3thumper
23:43.13spldartwhat was the switch to turn on bots in client?
23:43.24spldarthaven't done bots in almost a year
23:43.30CBGspldart: -solo #   ?
23:43.36halo3enter in the target -solo number of bots
23:43.37spldartthanks
23:43.42halo3np
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23:48.00spldart-offa switch works in 2.0.9 as well as the 2.1.x ?
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23:49.43spldartoops.. perhaps it's a new for 2.1.x feature
23:51.54CIA-6BZFlag: 03lan56 * 10bzflag/Dev-C++/bzflag.dev: add HUD*.cxx files that were missing
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23:55.32JeffM2501it is
23:56.18spldarthehe
23:56.39spldartI'm working on my maps and ooops
23:57.21JeffM2501it's a bad name
23:57.37CIA-6BZFlag: 03lan56 07v2_0branch * 10bzflag/Dev-C++/ (bzflag.dev bzfs.dev): add BZDBLocal.cxx, remove "date" subfolder from BZFS.dev
23:57.45JeffM2501it so needs to be called deathmatch and team deahtmatch
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23:59.39big_daddy2can any 1 host me a server on bzflag????

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