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| 01:24.19 | teh_conquerer | ~seen noodleman |
| 01:24.30 | ibot | noodleman <n=tuckerm@m015f36d0.tmodns.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #bzflag, 60d 14m 38s ago, saying: 'http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/fingertips'. |
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| 02:13.08 | brlcad | blasphemy |
| 02:13.17 | TD-Linux | lol |
| 02:13.21 | TD-Linux | it is, isn't it? |
| 02:14.18 | TD-Linux | grr... now I can't get the motherboard out |
| 02:24.35 | brlcad | ~dict obtuse |
| 02:24.45 | brlcad | heh |
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| 02:26.49 | orchid | not alert, especially to the feelings of others; dull; stupid |
| 02:27.35 | brlcad | ouch |
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| 05:47.58 | BenUrban | you shold link your nicks :P |
| 05:48.02 | BenUrban | err |
| 05:48.03 | JeffM__ | why? |
| 05:48.07 | BenUrban | s/should/might want to/ |
| 05:48.08 | JeffM__ | they will poof soon |
| 05:48.12 | BenUrban | meh |
| 05:48.35 | BenUrban | not much point in a cloak if it doesn't cover you all the time |
| 05:48.48 | BenUrban | but that's just my opinion |
| 05:49.00 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o JeffM2501] by ChanServ |
| 05:49.11 | JeffM2501 | the other names are just when this isn't up and I loose conection |
| 05:49.15 | JeffM2501 | so I care not about them |
| 05:49.37 | BenUrban | ah |
| 05:49.38 | BenUrban | ok |
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| 14:49.30 | SportChick | brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr |
| 14:50.58 | BenUrban | cold? |
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| 15:00.55 | ToughShooter | ~weather EDDF |
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| 17:23.09 | JeffM2501 | orange, WTF is that cheating post about? |
| 17:23.26 | orange | JeffM2501: cheating |
| 17:23.38 | JeffM2501 | that is not stuff for public |
| 17:23.50 | orange | why on earth not? |
| 17:23.51 | JeffM2501 | the froums are not places to accuse people of things |
| 17:24.10 | JeffM2501 | because all it does is cause flame wars |
| 17:24.25 | JeffM2501 | if he's cheating, take it up with admins, just like we did wth molez |
| 17:24.35 | orange | it's not good enough anymore |
| 17:24.42 | orange | and what good did it do with molez? |
| 17:24.42 | orange | none |
| 17:24.44 | orange | and db |
| 17:24.44 | orange | none |
| 17:24.52 | orange | nothing is happening |
| 17:24.55 | orange | people are suspecting everyone |
| 17:25.00 | orange | it's time to take it to the mats |
| 17:25.03 | JeffM2501 | it's not our job to poleice all the servers |
| 17:25.08 | orange | no, I didn't ask you to |
| 17:25.13 | JeffM2501 | we an't the "bz goverment" |
| 17:25.18 | orange | I posted some information that will help people make their own decisions |
| 17:25.20 | JeffM2501 | there are no "mats" for us to take it to |
| 17:25.21 | orange | about whether to match |
| 17:25.36 | JeffM2501 | as per the froum rules, that is for private discussion with server ops |
| 17:25.37 | orange | I haven't asked the devs to do anything with this, because you won't, and I agree. |
| 17:25.53 | orange | that's not good enough anymore, JeffM2501. Nothing is happening. |
| 17:26.14 | orange | it's time to expose the cheaters |
| 17:26.14 | JeffM2501 | that dosn't mean you can change the rules to fit your need |
| 17:26.17 | orange | people deserve to know |
| 17:26.24 | JeffM2501 | then do it on your own bandwith |
| 17:26.42 | JeffM2501 | if we had a place for that stuff, then I'd be ok with with it, but we don't |
| 17:26.56 | JeffM2501 | I tried to set up a server ops only thing but the comunity wasn't ready for it |
| 17:27.00 | orange | I wasn't aware it was against the rules |
| 17:27.06 | orange | this wasn't for server ops, it was for players |
| 17:27.17 | JeffM2501 | what can players do about a cheater? |
| 17:27.21 | orange | not match them |
| 17:27.23 | JeffM2501 | everyone KNOWS carnage is a cheater |
| 17:27.30 | orange | no they don't, JeffM2501 |
| 17:27.31 | orchid | not play them in matches |
| 17:27.31 | JeffM2501 | he's been one since he's played as Lt. Dan |
| 17:27.47 | orange | people deserve to know, and all most people do is suspect |
| 17:27.47 | JeffM2501 | then you take that up with the LEAUGE admins and get him removed from the leauge |
| 17:28.02 | JeffM2501 | I can't have the offical froums be a place for that |
| 17:28.07 | JeffM2501 | we've tried it in the past |
| 17:28.11 | JeffM2501 | it just becomes flambait |
| 17:28.39 | JeffM2501 | because what's to prevent anyone from saying that someone cheats |
| 17:28.44 | JeffM2501 | and making up "evedence" |
| 17:28.49 | JeffM2501 | I trust you |
| 17:28.56 | JeffM2501 | so I'm sure your 100% correct |
| 17:29.03 | JeffM2501 | but I have to hav the same rules for everyone |
| 17:29.26 | orange | fair enough, if that's the rule |
| 17:29.28 | orange | I wasn't aware |
| 17:29.47 | JeffM2501 | I agree something has to be done, but nothing can be done on a "social" level that is stable |
| 17:29.54 | orange | nothing else *is* being done |
| 17:29.55 | JeffM2501 | the bugs that let the cheats happen just have to be fixed |
| 17:29.58 | JeffM2501 | but noone is coding them |
| 17:30.13 | orange | it's reaching a new level of insanity |
| 17:30.22 | JeffM2501 | you can thank molez for that |
| 17:30.32 | orange | you betcha |
| 17:30.35 | JeffM2501 | he wants to kill the game |
| 17:30.37 | orange | he was involved in this too, of course |
| 17:30.46 | JeffM2501 | now I don't mind you calling peopel cheaters here :) |
| 17:30.50 | JeffM2501 | or in bzchat :) |
| 17:30.54 | orange | but those who give in to temptation and use those cheats need to be exposed |
| 17:30.58 | JeffM2501 | cus this isn't "official" :) |
| 17:31.02 | orange | I'll find another forum for it, if it is against the rules |
| 17:31.19 | JeffM2501 | the only rason it's against the rules is there is no way to verify it |
| 17:31.29 | JeffM2501 | it turns into a form of slander very fast |
| 17:31.37 | JeffM2501 | or is it libel? |
| 17:31.47 | orange | only if it isn't true |
| 17:31.58 | orange | nothing posted there was anything but 100% factual |
| 17:32.00 | JeffM2501 | since all the server logs are decentralised |
| 17:32.05 | JeffM2501 | there is no way to "prove" anything |
| 17:32.14 | JeffM2501 | how can you prove it tho? |
| 17:32.15 | orange | yeah, but that's the problem isn't it? |
| 17:32.28 | JeffM2501 | to somone who dosn't know you, you could have faked it all |
| 17:32.28 | orange | it has to come down to judgment calls... people have to look at the evidence and make up their own minds |
| 17:32.39 | JeffM2501 | the problem is it's realy easy to fake evedence |
| 17:32.50 | orange | yep, people have to decide about the source, too |
| 17:32.51 | JeffM2501 | and many don't read the evedence and just ban |
| 17:32.58 | JeffM2501 | liek XP, and the other kiddies |
| 17:33.20 | JeffM2501 | it's a hard line to walk |
| 17:33.33 | orange | I thought long and hard about this... almost 10 days |
| 17:33.37 | orange | and consulted many others |
| 17:33.45 | JeffM2501 | now on that note... I'm gonna disable carnies account cus he's a cheatin bastage :) |
| 17:34.31 | orange | one cheater at a time |
| 17:34.34 | orange | if that's what it takes |
| 17:36.01 | orange | I'd like to propose that we (the community) consider, or re-consider, a closed-source binary checker |
| 17:36.14 | JeffM2501 | will never work |
| 17:36.49 | JeffM2501 | you would prevent devs from testing |
| 17:36.55 | orange | I think it could work |
| 17:37.02 | JeffM2501 | and too many systems need to build from source |
| 17:37.17 | orange | well, it complicates distribution, for sure |
| 17:37.19 | JeffM2501 | how do you prevent the binary checker from just being faked out |
| 17:37.31 | JeffM2501 | with a simple packet sniffer? |
| 17:37.36 | orange | I'm no expert |
| 17:37.41 | JeffM2501 | the time would be better spent just fixing the bugs |
| 17:37.47 | orange | but a challenge response system seems like it could work |
| 17:37.53 | trepan | ... rewriting the protocol |
| 17:37.55 | JeffM2501 | it dosnt' |
| 17:38.05 | JeffM2501 | many games have tried it, it's easy to fake out |
| 17:38.16 | JeffM2501 | orange, you understand that the problem is not that we don't know how to fix it |
| 17:38.23 | JeffM2501 | just that noone has invested the time right? |
| 17:38.30 | orange | no, I didn't understand that :-) |
| 17:38.39 | JeffM2501 | trepan is right, the proto just needs to be remade to not trust clients |
| 17:38.52 | JeffM2501 | the server can verify all data that comes in and takes care of most of the nasty cheats |
| 17:38.53 | trepan | orange: i guarantee i could subvert a closed-source "checker" |
| 17:38.58 | JeffM2501 | anyone can |
| 17:39.05 | JeffM2501 | using tools out there to hack quake |
| 17:39.22 | JeffM2501 | you can never prevent every single posible cheat |
| 17:39.28 | JeffM2501 | but youi can limit the cheats they can do |
| 17:39.38 | JeffM2501 | to make it nearly pointless to cheat |
| 17:39.55 | JeffM2501 | bzflag was made as a lan game, so it trusted all client data |
| 17:39.57 | orange | we now have players who claim they are using cheats just because nobody else will stop the other cheaters, so they feel they have to level out the playing field |
| 17:40.02 | JeffM2501 | cus if somoen cheated you could go hit them |
| 17:40.24 | JeffM2501 | yeah, you need somone to put dev time into fixing the protocoll bugs |
| 17:40.37 | JeffM2501 | but right now the game has very few active developers |
| 17:40.41 | trepan | TheRedBaron: you got something you want to accuse me of? |
| 17:40.43 | JeffM2501 | treapan is about it on the graphics end |
| 17:40.48 | JeffM2501 | tupone does some stuff |
| 17:40.52 | orange | I think TheRedBaron just likes to hit people |
| 17:40.52 | JeffM2501 | eveyrone else just putters |
| 17:41.11 | orange | in the interim |
| 17:41.15 | orange | I'm going to expose cheaters as I find them |
| 17:41.19 | orange | I won't do it on bzbb |
| 17:41.32 | JeffM2501 | Personaly I think that it's going to take project management to get involved and asign some stuff to some people ( who agree ) and activly make it get done |
| 17:41.53 | JeffM2501 | its ether that or the project is dead |
| 17:42.27 | orange | god-mode cheats I can handle |
| 17:42.43 | orange | but as someone said (can't remember who)... what I don't like is the people who cheat, beat you, and then smile as they say "good game" |
| 17:42.55 | JeffM2501 | those are called "assholes" |
| 17:43.04 | JeffM2501 | they will exist in all parts of the world, till the end of time |
| 17:43.39 | JeffM2501 | and carnie won't be using global login anymore, under the names you mentioned |
| 17:44.03 | JeffM2501 | acutaly I just had an idea |
| 17:44.04 | orange | I'm going to take it public when I find it... but in a measured, fair, and community-supported way (community in this case meaning at least 5 or so other people that are trusted in the community) |
| 17:44.16 | JeffM2501 | I think we can have a compromise here |
| 17:44.22 | JeffM2501 | I'll make you your own private forum |
| 17:44.29 | JeffM2501 | for the discussion of cheaters |
| 17:44.47 | JeffM2501 | you invite server ops and admins into who you feel are worth it |
| 17:44.55 | JeffM2501 | and you use that to discuss it |
| 17:44.57 | JeffM2501 | hows that? |
| 17:45.13 | orange | that would certainly be useful |
| 17:45.23 | orange | I've been using an irc channel up until now |
| 17:45.26 | JeffM2501 | then it's not a total open flaim bait thing |
| 17:45.30 | orange | but people come and go, and it is hard to keep people up to date |
| 17:45.54 | orange | in this particular case, somebody (I believe carnage) leaked the logs to others, so the rumors are already rampant |
| 17:46.32 | orange | I posted the full analysis to tidy things up, in addition to exposing the cheating |
| 17:46.57 | gsnedders|GT4 | |
| 17:47.21 | orange | I'll be sad to tell zongo that one of his top two (I don't know of the competition is finished) players in the 1vs1 tournament was a cheater |
| 17:48.10 | CBG | carnage? |
| 17:48.14 | orange | yes |
| 17:48.30 | CBG | Interesting. |
| 17:49.47 | gsnedders | Pimpinella, _Manu_, I can't connect to viper's. Down? |
| 17:52.01 | trepan | JeffM2501: project mgmt? what's that? |
| 17:52.17 | JeffM2501 | trepan, exactly |
| 17:52.25 | JeffM2501 | he's going to kill the game |
| 17:52.32 | trepan | who, the ws king? |
| 17:52.49 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 17:52.56 | JeffM2501 | thru stagnation |
| 17:53.44 | trepan | maybe euthanasia isn't such a bad thing ;) |
| 17:53.57 | JeffM2501 | it will still make some people cry |
| 17:54.07 | JeffM2501 | I'd rather see it go the way of the bionic ma |
| 17:54.22 | JeffM2501 | rebuld it.. make it faster.. better..diferent |
| 17:54.43 | trepan | old yeller / bionic man, tough choice |
| 17:55.07 | JeffM2501 | TheRedBaron, I have been, but I have that real life thing going too |
| 17:55.20 | JeffM2501 | trepan, just not the bionic sasquach |
| 17:55.24 | JeffM2501 | cus that was dumb |
| 17:55.30 | JeffM2501 | orange, you now have a fourm |
| 17:55.34 | JeffM2501 | your post was moved to it |
| 17:55.39 | JeffM2501 | and a group to add people to :) |
| 17:55.49 | orange | JeffM2501: thanks |
| 17:56.02 | JeffM2501 | at least then you have a place on the froum to do it |
| 17:56.10 | *** join/#bzflag brad2901 (n=brad@unaffiliated/brad2901) |
| 17:56.21 | JeffM2501 | I can rename it if you want me to as well :) |
| 17:56.31 | orange | ohhh, hmmm |
| 17:56.36 | orange | yeah, that might be good |
| 17:56.54 | orange | this isn't mccarthyism |
| 17:57.11 | JeffM2501 | well that's the problem with doing what your doing.. it's VERY Close to it |
| 17:57.17 | JeffM2501 | or could get very close to it |
| 17:57.22 | orange | it could, yes |
| 17:57.38 | CBG | ~dict mccarthyism |
| 17:57.51 | CBG | heh ;) |
| 17:57.51 | orange | CBG: witch hunts |
| 17:57.54 | JeffM2501 | "noone suspects the orangish inquizition!!!" |
| 17:58.23 | JeffM2501 | orange, I did add the developers group to the access list for the froum |
| 17:58.41 | orange | that's great |
| 17:58.47 | orange | I will add some more today |
| 17:59.34 | orchid | orange: add *all* the users :P |
| 17:59.41 | JeffM2501 | no, |
| 17:59.44 | orange | orchid: I don't think that's what jeff had in mind :-) |
| 17:59.49 | JeffM2501 | no it's not |
| 17:59.59 | orchid | I know, was j/k |
| 17:59.59 | JeffM2501 | most of the users can't be trusted to discuss things rationaly |
| 18:00.01 | orange | JeffM2501: I respect your wishes on this |
| 18:00.04 | JeffM2501 | I changed the name |
| 18:00.09 | JeffM2501 | to something more correct |
| 18:00.35 | CBG | can't this sort of thing go in the forum JeffM2501 made for owners of permanent servers a while back? |
| 18:00.50 | JeffM2501 | CBG, because there is no froum for that |
| 18:00.52 | orange | I disagree with you, but I understand it too |
| 18:01.10 | JeffM2501 | CBG, and you would know that if you had read the post on it |
| 18:01.27 | CBG | ok ok, sorry. |
| 18:01.32 | JeffM2501 | orange, I know you do, but I'm trying to give you as much as I can |
| 18:01.44 | TheRedBaron | that was one of the most beautiful disasters I ever saw... The forum for permanent servers. |
| 18:01.58 | orange | JeffM2501: and I appreciate it :-) |
| 18:02.07 | JeffM2501 | the kiddies saw it as something it wasn't |
| 18:02.26 | JeffM2501 | so that told me that it wasn't set up the way it was intended |
| 18:07.57 | JeffM2501 | I hope the new name is better |
| 18:08.03 | JeffM2501 | tho it may be spelled wrong |
| 18:08.50 | CBG | JeffM2501: You said in your post that "If you are a server owner of a permenant (24/7) server, and use global registration for ether the spawn or talk permision, then you are eligable to be included in the new global login private discussion fourm. Here you can post and discuss about problem cheaters with other server owners who use the global login system." |
| 18:09.03 | JeffM2501 | yes |
| 18:09.11 | CBG | Am I misunderstanding either that or the type of forum orange wants? |
| 18:09.18 | CBG | They seem to be very similar. |
| 18:09.23 | JeffM2501 | and then the kiddie servers got upset when they didn't meet those rules |
| 18:09.35 | JeffM2501 | orange's froum has no rules like that |
| 18:09.41 | JeffM2501 | he getst to choose who's in it, and who isn't |
| 18:09.45 | *** join/#bzflag SC-phone (n=sc@240.sub-70-199-42.myvzw.com) |
| 18:09.58 | JeffM2501 | as it's just a place for those people to discuss |
| 18:10.45 | CBG | Ok, fair enough. |
| 18:10.57 | JeffM2501 | it's not "offical" in any way |
| 18:11.38 | CBG | ok |
| 18:12.35 | JeffM2501 | but if the evedence is convicing, and seems reasonable, the discussions may be the grounds for the removal of global login accounts. |
| 18:12.40 | *** part/#bzflag SC-phone (n=sc@240.sub-70-199-42.myvzw.com) |
| 18:12.52 | JeffM2501 | for those that abbuse it |
| 18:13.00 | CBG | right |
| 18:13.11 | JeffM2501 | everyone saw the other thing as some sort of "master ban list" club |
| 18:13.34 | JeffM2501 | and they were upset that since they wern't 24/7 servers they'd not be able to "get the ban list" |
| 18:13.43 | CBG | yeah |
| 18:13.55 | JeffM2501 | to me that tells me that those server ops are not interested in activly adminining there servers |
| 18:14.01 | *** join/#bzflag amcnabb (n=amcnabb@128.187.155.92) |
| 18:14.03 | JeffM2501 | just lust like to have one for the "prestege" |
| 18:15.25 | JeffM2501 | personaly I think we have too many servers as is |
| 18:15.45 | CBG | probably |
| 18:15.49 | TheRedBaron | jeffm2501: whatever gave you that clue? |
| 18:15.55 | blast007 | ~bzflist |
| 18:16.20 | blast007 | 193 players for 178 servers ;) |
| 18:16.22 | JeffM2501 | and how many of those "players" are bzadmin clients loged in? |
| 18:16.35 | trepan | or bots |
| 18:16.38 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 18:16.44 | JeffM2501 | I'm sure it's more servers then players |
| 18:16.55 | JeffM2501 | most of those servers totaly unadmined |
| 18:17.23 | blast007 | many of them are run on connections that get laggy after 6 players (including mine) ;) |
| 18:17.34 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 18:17.46 | JeffM2501 | with so many all it does is clog the server list I feel |
| 18:17.57 | blast007 | yup |
| 18:18.11 | blast007 | the filter helps a bit, but not as much as some games |
| 18:18.12 | JeffM2501 | it's one reaosn I'm not real keen on helping people set up servers |
| 18:18.17 | JeffM2501 | but it's not like I can prevent them |
| 18:19.41 | JeffM2501 | nor should prevent them |
| 18:19.59 | blast007 | could always have a private list server for serious server owners :) |
| 18:20.11 | blast007 | then let the user decide which lists to pull from |
| 18:20.15 | JeffM2501 | I want to do global groups of servers |
| 18:20.22 | JeffM2501 | and have prefered servers login |
| 18:20.27 | JeffM2501 | and be allways listed on there own tab |
| 18:20.42 | JeffM2501 | we don't need multiple list servers to group them |
| 18:20.49 | JeffM2501 | tho we need multiple list servers for other reasons |
| 18:21.07 | JeffM2501 | what I'd like to see is the server list be made of tabs |
| 18:21.40 | JeffM2501 | default tab is oficial project prefered servers, ones that use global auth, use the global admin team, and fit a set of bandwith / performance rules |
| 18:21.50 | JeffM2501 | then start listing the other servers sorted by type and stuff on other tabs |
| 18:22.08 | JeffM2501 | just to help players make there server choice better |
| 18:22.23 | trepan | do you tie the 'preferred servers' to bzbb user ids / ips / dns? |
| 18:22.26 | JeffM2501 | they coudl know the "prefered" ones fit a minium set of rules |
| 18:22.40 | trepan | make sure little joey doesn't add 20 servers to that list... |
| 18:22.42 | JeffM2501 | trepan, yeah, I'd make the server do a login wtih it's own bzbb username |
| 18:22.45 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 18:22.57 | JeffM2501 | those users would have to be in the prefered group on the froums |
| 18:23.16 | JeffM2501 | so its' ONLY the server that want to be prefered, and are accepted as prefered |
| 18:23.39 | JeffM2501 | basicly it's like us thanking them for puting up a nice good admined server, we list them first |
| 18:23.51 | JeffM2501 | they would be the showcase servers, the ones you'd want reviewers to play on |
| 18:24.11 | trepan | reviewers? |
| 18:24.21 | JeffM2501 | well in a comercial game :) |
| 18:24.32 | JeffM2501 | or if we cared about promoting the thing |
| 18:24.45 | JeffM2501 | basicly it's where you'd want noobs to go |
| 18:24.50 | trepan | heh, it's got a beat, but i just can't dance to it |
| 18:24.56 | JeffM2501 | heh |
| 18:25.01 | JeffM2501 | then tabs for each leauge |
| 18:25.16 | JeffM2501 | and then sort the rest by game type or ping or quality rating |
| 18:25.24 | JeffM2501 | and then a tab for favorates/bookmarks |
| 18:26.17 | JeffM2501 | but tis just an older dream |
| 18:28.14 | CIA-3 | opencombat: 03jeffm2501 * 10GPx01/todo.txt: added server side map parser, and map over the wire. |
| 18:28.22 | TheRedBaron | tabs for the leagues gets my vote |
| 18:29.45 | JeffM2501 | there are many cool things that could be done given proper direction of the project |
| 18:31.20 | trepan | usurpation? |
| 18:31.33 | JeffM2501 | I don't think it would fly |
| 18:32.13 | trepan | heh, because no one wants it? |
| 18:32.27 | JeffM2501 | and it's not a physical thing you can just take from somone |
| 18:33.24 | JeffM2501 | few would move to a fork |
| 18:33.25 | JeffM2501 | if any at all |
| 18:33.28 | JeffM2501 | unless it allready had lots of cool nifty features and outshone the origonal |
| 18:33.37 | JeffM2501 | as you said, euthenasia is not allways a bad thing |
| 18:33.43 | JeffM2501 | all things must have an end |
| 18:34.07 | JeffM2501 | but that dosn't mean new things can come out of the ashes of the old |
| 18:34.49 | JeffM2501 | every time I think of forking I have to ask myself "what does the bzflag codebase give me"? |
| 18:34.57 | TheRedBaron | JeffM2501: honestly, I do not think there is a need to "kill" the old |
| 18:34.59 | JeffM2501 | up untill your stuff, not much |
| 18:35.16 | JeffM2501 | TheRedBaron, no, it will never realy die, as in noone playing it |
| 18:35.23 | JeffM2501 | mostly I'm speaking of active dev and releases |
| 18:35.36 | TheRedBaron | resort to bug-fixes |
| 18:35.44 | TheRedBaron | instead of "developing" |
| 18:35.54 | TheRedBaron | sell the house already, and just do upkeep, don't add on to it |
| 18:36.04 | TheRedBaron | if you get my analogy |
| 18:36.37 | trepan | TheRedBaron: it would likely die, devs like shiny |
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| 18:38.32 | TheRedBaron | trepan: I haven't thought about all the ramifications or consequences, but my initial reaction is "let it" |
| 18:38.51 | TheRedBaron | The base of people who keep this going, are the league players |
| 18:39.01 | JeffM2501 | well that's the problem |
| 18:39.13 | JeffM2501 | what's the point of making a new one, if the players will play the old one |
| 18:39.47 | TheRedBaron | build it and they will come.... the old might not move on, you may end up attracting a whole different crowd |
| 18:39.48 | JeffM2501 | also with out proper guidance, who's to say what the "new one" will be |
| 18:39.57 | TheRedBaron | Guidance from who? |
| 18:40.00 | JeffM2501 | yeah but building things by yourself is hard |
| 18:40.03 | TheRedBaron | the players? or devs |
| 18:40.26 | JeffM2501 | well if you are going to make a "new one" then what is new about it has to be defined |
| 18:40.41 | JeffM2501 | your' build it an they will come" method realy is jsut telling a single person to do it all |
| 18:40.48 | JeffM2501 | not very comunity oriented that is |
| 18:41.14 | JeffM2501 | but then it's hard with games |
| 18:41.20 | JeffM2501 | as oposed to other open source apps |
| 18:41.41 | JeffM2501 | with a word processor you can leave all the old functioality in, and just add new stuff that users want |
| 18:41.55 | JeffM2501 | with a game, at some point, new desires will confilct with old uses |
| 18:42.10 | TheRedBaron | see, there I cannot help you... For I like the old, But I"m not against the new also |
| 18:42.17 | TheRedBaron | and if possible, I"ll take both |
| 18:42.21 | JeffM2501 | I think that's one reaosn games don't have as many versions as Apps and OSs |
| 18:42.52 | JeffM2501 | I've allways said we should take current codebase and call it "bzflag classic" and just leave it |
| 18:43.07 | JeffM2501 | and make a new codebase that has a more action oriented gameplay called bzflag2 |
| 18:43.09 | TheRedBaron | thats fine with me :) |
| 18:43.13 | TheRedBaron | and fine with the rest of the league |
| 18:43.15 | TheRedBaron | I would venture to say |
| 18:43.34 | JeffM2501 | tha'ts just the thing, it needs more then just for you to say "ok" |
| 18:43.40 | TheRedBaron | I would ask of the devs however, to still be open to bzflag classic, should an ugly bug rear its head... |
| 18:43.42 | JeffM2501 | it needs dev and design support |
| 18:44.00 | JeffM2501 | the source is allways there, it's not like we'd stop anyone from fixing it |
| 18:44.21 | TheRedBaron | Sadly jeffm2501: its like a government, politics, the people feel distanced from the devs, as if there is a wall between the two |
| 18:44.27 | JeffM2501 | but with out gidance, as we've seen people will just keep puting in little changes to the old stuff cus that is what they are famailar with |
| 18:44.36 | JeffM2501 | look at our current CVS head |
| 18:44.52 | JeffM2501 | TheRedBaron, what "the devs"? |
| 18:44.53 | TheRedBaron | i wouldn't know what I was looking at :) |
| 18:45.00 | JeffM2501 | the wall is all in your guys's heads |
| 18:45.05 | JeffM2501 | and that's the problem |
| 18:45.12 | TheRedBaron | yup |
| 18:45.15 | JeffM2501 | that's what a proper proejct manager should fight against |
| 18:45.15 | TheRedBaron | I aggree |
| 18:45.22 | JeffM2501 | but ours dosn't |
| 18:45.30 | JeffM2501 | dosn't do anything realy |
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| 18:46.02 | JeffM2501 | but I also understand it's not a comerical app |
| 18:46.07 | JeffM2501 | so it dosn't have to be run like one |
| 18:46.26 | JeffM2501 | and noone can be forced to do things they don't want to... etc.. |
| 18:46.49 | JeffM2501 | I'm curious how other projects get roadmaps and features and milestones done tho |
| 18:47.00 | JeffM2501 | I mean like firefox seems to have a plan and a goal |
| 18:47.12 | JeffM2501 | and they work tward that goal with each release |
| 18:47.30 | trepan | and payed players, iirc |
| 18:47.43 | JeffM2501 | how do they pay for that? |
| 18:47.45 | JeffM2501 | donations? |
| 18:48.05 | JeffM2501 | is there design team paid to design stuff? |
| 18:48.09 | JeffM2501 | or do they do a bounty thing? |
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| 18:48.13 | Chestal | I think they have quite a few full-time devs |
| 18:48.16 | TheRedBaron | I can bake cookies :) |
| 18:48.19 | JeffM2501 | heh |
| 18:48.27 | JeffM2501 | well they also have a largeer userbase |
| 18:48.41 | trepan | http://my.opera.com/Rijk/blog/index.dml/tag/firefox , search for payed (first hit i got) |
| 18:48.49 | JeffM2501 | but at some point somone says "we shoudl have a thing that does this, and it should work like this" |
| 18:48.53 | JeffM2501 | and then it gets done |
| 18:49.28 | Chestal | ff sucks anyway :-) |
| 18:49.38 | JeffM2501 | I'm just using it as an example :) |
| 18:50.08 | JeffM2501 | tho I guess all the realy sucsessfull OS projects are tied to a comercial venture arn't they? |
| 18:50.16 | JeffM2501 | does KDE have comerical links? |
| 18:51.22 | trepan | and openoffice.org, and linux kernel, and ... |
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| 18:51.48 | JeffM2501 | yeah, who says what is suposed to go in open office? |
| 18:51.51 | JeffM2501 | do they vote on it? |
| 18:52.04 | JeffM2501 | or just have people elected into a positon to say stuf? |
| 18:52.15 | JeffM2501 | or just let everyone go hog wild? |
| 18:54.38 | TheRedBaron | JeffM2501: what attracted the devs to bzflag in the first place? |
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| 19:30.55 | JeffM2501 | TheRedBaron, each person for there own reasons I assume |
| 19:31.42 | JeffM2501 | I got into it because it was the first oportunity I had to use my programing knowledge in a project used by others |
| 19:33.15 | trepan | no decent linux games (which is slowly changing) |
| 19:36.13 | trepan | wonder is taspring has done their os code merge yet ;) |
| 19:37.47 | TheRedBaron | JeffM2501: what keeps you in bzflag? |
| 19:38.24 | JeffM2501 | I think it can be more then what it is |
| 19:38.26 | JeffM2501 | and the people |
| 19:38.39 | JeffM2501 | some of the people |
| 19:38.56 | trepan | a select few of the people? |
| 19:39.12 | JeffM2501 | lets just say that not all of the people |
| 19:39.37 | JeffM2501 | it also seems my time here is usefull to others, doing what I do |
| 19:39.54 | JeffM2501 | so that is one reason to keep doin it |
| 19:40.59 | TheRedBaron | I agree |
| 19:43.44 | JeffM2501 | I just feel that a stagnat painfull death awaits the project if it's not kicked in the ass by some leadership |
| 19:43.56 | JeffM2501 | the cheating stuff just shows that area of weakness badly |
| 19:44.12 | JeffM2501 | since there is noone to make sure that the bugs that allow the cheats are fixed |
| 19:44.35 | JeffM2501 | bug fixing is booring work usualy, so people would rather to fun new features |
| 19:44.47 | JeffM2501 | like turning GMs into animated fish :) |
| 19:44.55 | TheRedBaron | ack! |
| 19:46.12 | JeffM2501 | the lack also showed up with the adition fo wings |
| 19:46.13 | trepan | most of the cheats are not "bugs", it's poor architecture, not something to be "patched up" |
| 19:46.21 | JeffM2501 | true |
| 19:46.26 | JeffM2501 | I mean bugs as in flaws |
| 19:46.32 | JeffM2501 | in arch or coding |
| 19:46.52 | trepan | "bug fixing is boring", but maybe rearching isn't? ;) |
| 19:47.00 | JeffM2501 | if the design goal is now to be an interent game, then many of the existing design choices do not fit that, and are flawed |
| 19:47.16 | JeffM2501 | every dev enjoys difrent parts |
| 19:47.21 | JeffM2501 | like you and your shaders |
| 19:47.33 | trepan | and physics, and some net, and ... ;) |
| 19:47.54 | JeffM2501 | you do what picks your interest |
| 19:48.00 | trepan | and an odd fascination with adding observer mode features :) |
| 19:48.18 | JeffM2501 | so far it seems noone is interested in doing cheat stuff |
| 19:48.33 | JeffM2501 | other then people who just have no clue on the subject |
| 19:48.37 | JeffM2501 | like binary_spike |
| 19:49.20 | TheRedBaron | and me |
| 19:49.24 | JeffM2501 | I think one of the big problems with doing the cheat stuff is, before you can do it you have to know how everything is "suposed" to work |
| 19:49.27 | trepan | start by swapping the client->server MsgPlayerUpdate with MsgPlayerCommand, and leave it busted until it gets implemented |
| 19:49.44 | JeffM2501 | and noone knows how it's all suposed to work since there is no consistent guide |
| 19:49.59 | trepan | s/Command/Commands|UserInputs |
| 19:50.00 | JeffM2501 | heh |
| 19:50.32 | trepan | i'm serious, that's the way to go |
| 19:50.43 | trepan | leave it borked :) |
| 19:50.53 | JeffM2501 | you'd need a clock to know when the input was given |
| 19:51.20 | JeffM2501 | at least a relitive one |
| 19:51.22 | trepan | it ain't rocket science, been done before, sync cosim... |
| 19:51.29 | JeffM2501 | I know |
| 19:51.38 | trepan | it's not even that complicated |
| 19:51.41 | JeffM2501 | it's just a lot of backend that noone has taken the time to do |
| 19:51.49 | JeffM2501 | I know, I just made one :) |
| 19:51.59 | JeffM2501 | just not for this project |
| 19:52.08 | JeffM2501 | have I mentioned that racknet is REALY cool |
| 19:52.13 | trepan | what do you do for packet ditching? any state reversions? |
| 19:52.24 | JeffM2501 | haven't goten that far yet |
| 19:52.27 | JeffM2501 | just did the clock :) |
| 19:53.23 | JeffM2501 | have to do populate the state databases with players now, then I'll get them siming |
| 19:54.57 | JeffM2501 | I even gots me a book on networkin :) |
| 19:59.24 | JBdiGriz | Many people have been actively discouraged from doing "cheat work" |
| 20:02.39 | JeffM2501 | true |
| 20:02.56 | JeffM2501 | some of the ideas that people come up with have flaws |
| 20:03.03 | JeffM2501 | but again I think that comes down to leadership |
| 20:03.35 | JeffM2501 | if you had multiple people doing there own difrent confilcting anti-cheat code, who is "right" ? |
| 20:03.59 | JeffM2501 | personaly I can't agree with the binary key, or closed source "exe trackers" |
| 20:04.05 | JeffM2501 | since they are easaly hacked out |
| 20:04.13 | brlcad | hmm.. all the good friday conversation missed while buried in emacs |
| 20:04.19 | JeffM2501 | heh |
| 20:04.32 | JeffM2501 | and st. Patys' day :) |
| 20:04.36 | JeffM2501 | green beer for everyone |
| 20:04.37 | brlcad | indeed! |
| 20:04.58 | JeffM2501 | I'm just on a dayqill rant tha'ts all |
| 20:05.05 | JeffM2501 | It'll come down after lunch |
| 20:05.31 | brlcad | a good two-hour rant apparently |
| 20:05.41 | JeffM2501 | it's strong stuff |
| 20:05.50 | brlcad | good stuff |
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| 20:06.02 | JeffM2501 | it's not helping my throat tho :( |
| 20:07.10 | TheRedBaron | ~irish JeffM2501 |
| 20:07.11 | ibot | ACTION pulls out his geneology charts and traces the family history of JeffM2501 all the way back to... hrm... JeffM2501 isn't irish...JeffM2501 is... is.... well, we won't say what JeffM2501 is.... |
| 20:07.26 | JeffM2501 | actualy I'm part irsh |
| 20:07.34 | JeffM2501 | irish welsh and german |
| 20:07.40 | TheRedBaron | you wearing green? |
| 20:07.46 | JeffM2501 | well duh :) |
| 20:08.16 | JeffM2501 | there is no such thing as coincidence |
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| 20:08.49 | brlcad | coincidence in that it coincides with what I was wearing yesterday |
| 20:08.49 | JeffM2501 | I own a lot of green clothing, so It's easy to be wearing green |
| 20:08.55 | JeffM2501 | heh |
| 20:09.03 | brlcad | and I haven't changed since yesterday :) |
| 20:18.45 | TheRedBaron | JeffM2501: Its easy being green? |
| 20:21.33 | orange | JeffM2501: gargle with mild salt water... think tears, not ocean. Warm. |
| 20:21.37 | orange | it will solve your sore throat |
| 20:32.08 | Pimpinella | gsnedders: fixed |
| 20:32.30 | gsnedders | Pimpinella, what had happened? |
| 20:33.03 | Pimpinella | not sure, i guess the frequent crash client |
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| 21:28.06 | JeffM2501 | orange, I have done that a bit |
| 21:28.10 | JeffM2501 | it keeps moving around |
| 21:28.15 | JeffM2501 | shoudl be done by this weekend |
| 21:28.45 | orange | until a doc told me that bit about tears, not ocean, I used to use a stronger solution... it always made me ill to do it, so I just quit doing it |
| 21:28.52 | orange | now that I use the milder solution, it's great :-) |
| 21:29.29 | JeffM2501 | yeah I need to do it again this weekend |
| 21:29.43 | JeffM2501 | or I could kill it with vodka |
| 21:29.52 | orange | if you're passed out it doesn't hurt |
| 21:29.59 | JeffM2501 | heh |
| 21:30.22 | JeffM2501 | now I have to figue out what to spend the bonus money on :\ |
| 21:30.38 | Birdie | beer? |
| 21:30.46 | orange | a new cell phone |
| 21:30.49 | thresh | ahm. vodka. |
| 21:30.55 | JeffM2501 | I just got a new phone |
| 21:31.07 | JeffM2501 | Sony Ericsson w600i |
| 21:31.11 | orange | getting my new blackberry in a coupld days |
| 21:31.14 | Birdie | omg how cant you like vodka, even in russia.; |
| 21:31.21 | thresh | Birdie: yeah. :] |
| 21:32.03 | JeffM2501 | vodka and cranbery juice |
| 21:32.08 | JeffM2501 | flushes ya out |
| 21:32.50 | JeffM2501 | they gave me a raise at work, and back dated it a couple weeks, so I got couple hundred extra this check |
| 21:32.50 | orange | with just a twist of lime |
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| 21:52.06 | TheRedBaron | hrm... I ran ipconfig /flushdns, and I still cannot connect to a server's domain name in bzflag, I can only connect to an IP on that one computer |
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