| 00:07.28 | *** join/#bzflag brad2901_ (brad2901@ACD817F8.ipt.aol.com) |
| 00:09.17 | *** join/#bzflag sgk284 (~stevek@AC9D6B8C.ipt.aol.com) |
| 00:37.05 | *** join/#bzflag BIYA (~048153d4@webchat.bzflag.bz) |
| 00:37.31 | BIYA | hello? |
| 00:37.41 | brad2901 | hi biya |
| 00:37.50 | BIYA | hey brad |
| 00:42.47 | JeffM2501 | how's it hanging |
| 00:43.59 | BIYA | not much |
| 00:44.22 | BIYA | need to ask you a question jeff |
| 00:44.25 | JeffM2501 | k |
| 00:44.57 | BIYA | On bzbb about your model tool |
| 00:45.04 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 00:45.13 | BIYA | its not working again and this time I am aiming it right |
| 00:45.37 | JeffM2501 | there are some things that can be in OBJ files that it dosn't support |
| 00:45.55 | JeffM2501 | does it throw an error if you run it from the command line? |
| 00:46.01 | BIYA | I posted the obj on the forum |
| 00:46.24 | JeffM2501 | in what section |
| 00:46.50 | BIYA | I tried eveything and it just says Model tool has encountered an error and needs to close |
| 00:46.59 | spldart | Intesting... I was playing DTR's no radar map and after 15 minutes I hard locked for about 5 seconds and reappeared in another portion of the map :confused: Just thought I' |
| 00:47.11 | BIYA | General map making dicussion |
| 00:47.11 | spldart | d mention since i heard somebody else had a problem |
| 00:47.41 | BIYA | You are talking to me right spldart? |
| 00:47.55 | spldart | Was hoping the DTR man was handy |
| 00:48.13 | spldart | Didn't know if it was on my end or the server |
| 00:48.14 | BIYA | Im trying to get ahold of him right now |
| 00:48.19 | spldart | oh yeah |
| 00:48.24 | spldart | you had a thing happen too right? |
| 00:48.36 | BIYA | not to me |
| 00:49.08 | JeffM2501 | where is the mtl file? |
| 00:49.19 | BIYA | ? |
| 00:49.27 | BIYA | on my computer |
| 00:49.28 | JeffM2501 | the OJB refrences a mtl |
| 00:49.34 | JeffM2501 | you did not put that in the zip |
| 00:49.41 | BIYA | I made the object with wings 3D |
| 00:49.49 | BIYA | you need it? |
| 00:49.50 | spldart | ic |
| 00:50.07 | JeffM2501 | well on your system it will try to read both files |
| 00:50.17 | JeffM2501 | so if I am to debug the problem then I'd need both files |
| 00:50.28 | BIYA | gotcha |
| 00:50.31 | *** join/#bzflag PrezKennedy (~Matthew@resnet-253-237.resnet.umbc.edu) |
| 00:50.42 | BIYA | ill update the attachment |
| 00:51.31 | spldart | hrm.. thought I'd seen somebody mention that server.. Oh well. Maybe it was just me ;) |
| 00:51.48 | JeffM2501 | how old is your model tool? |
| 00:52.16 | JeffM2501 | cus it converts just fine for me |
| 00:52.24 | JeffM2501 | the model dosn't have texture coordinates |
| 00:52.32 | JeffM2501 | the first versions of MT would not handle that |
| 00:52.36 | JeffM2501 | the current one will |
| 00:59.30 | BIYA | I downloaded it after you updated it so it will make every object above the ground |
| 01:02.05 | JeffM2501 | that should do it |
| 01:02.14 | JeffM2501 | try removing the material line |
| 01:03.28 | BIYA | what material line? |
| 01:03.57 | JeffM2501 | the one that has the name of the .mtl file |
| 01:04.01 | JeffM2501 | the obj is just a text file |
| 01:04.51 | BIYA | im confused.... obj is the text of the meshe but what is the mtl? |
| 01:05.03 | JeffM2501 | the materials used in that mesh |
| 01:06.39 | BIYA | so to convert the obj I have to remove the material line from the mtl file? |
| 01:06.48 | JeffM2501 | just try it |
| 01:06.53 | JeffM2501 | I don't know why your crashing |
| 01:07.01 | JeffM2501 | so this is just something to try |
| 01:07.19 | JeffM2501 | unless it's a realease only thing |
| 01:08.35 | BIYA | realease? |
| 01:08.47 | JeffM2501 | aplications can be made in 1 of 2 ways |
| 01:08.50 | JeffM2501 | debug or release |
| 01:08.52 | JeffM2501 | I have debug |
| 01:08.55 | JeffM2501 | you use release |
| 01:09.02 | BIYA | o |
| 01:09.45 | BIYA | another question... How am I sopposed to move this mesh :) |
| 01:09.55 | JeffM2501 | put it in a group |
| 01:09.57 | JeffM2501 | move the group |
| 01:10.07 | BIYA | group planet? |
| 01:10.15 | JeffM2501 | what ever you want to call it |
| 01:10.18 | JeffM2501 | it's up to you |
| 01:10.23 | BIYA | so |
| 01:10.30 | BIYA | group planet |
| 01:10.33 | BIYA | position |
| 01:10.37 | BIYA | rotation |
| 01:10.40 | BIYA | size |
| 01:10.42 | BIYA | ? |
| 01:10.46 | *** join/#bzflag Aribeth (~Aribeth@dsl081-067-057.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 01:10.59 | JeffM2501 | it's just like any other group you've ever done |
| 01:11.05 | JeffM2501 | there are even examples in the forusm |
| 01:11.07 | JeffM2501 | and manpages |
| 01:11.14 | JeffM2501 | here try this build |
| 01:11.18 | JeffM2501 | maybe the posted one is bad |
| 01:11.22 | BIYA | I have never made a group myself |
| 01:11.33 | JeffM2501 | in all those maps? |
| 01:11.34 | JeffM2501 | wow |
| 01:11.38 | BIYA | lol |
| 01:11.50 | BIYA | copy and paste from the Object library |
| 01:11.50 | JeffM2501 | http://sasami.bakadigital.com/tools/modeltool.exe |
| 01:12.02 | JeffM2501 | the object library has an example of groups |
| 01:12.16 | JeffM2501 | perhaps you should try to understand the format a bit better and what all the common structures mean |
| 01:12.44 | BIYA | Atleast im getting the hang of 3D Editing |
| 01:12.55 | JeffM2501 | that's good |
| 01:13.01 | JeffM2501 | but thats only a small part of it |
| 01:13.08 | BIYA | yeah :( |
| 01:13.29 | JeffM2501 | tisn't rocket science tho |
| 01:14.11 | BIYA | But it isnt easy on the mind of a 15 year old kid that only knows hardware :) |
| 01:14.26 | JeffM2501 | most map makers in the real games are young |
| 01:14.57 | BIYA | Sid isnt young then again he isnt making them no more |
| 01:16.11 | BIYA | I think louman isnt a youngin either |
| 01:16.25 | JeffM2501 | I said in real games :) |
| 01:16.26 | BIYA | he pays for his 3D editors and he can also program |
| 01:16.33 | BIYA | o |
| 01:16.44 | JeffM2501 | you can get milkshape for 25$ |
| 01:16.58 | BIYA | I have tried to make some in Rainbowsix3 but it was to confusing |
| 01:17.18 | BIYA | I spend my money on paintball |
| 01:17.23 | BIYA | and when I go out |
| 01:17.54 | JeffM2501 | it's all about how much effort you put into it |
| 01:18.33 | BIYA | Its also my fear of paying for somthing that I probably wont understand and waist my money on |
| 01:19.05 | JeffM2501 | and that goes back to the effort thing |
| 01:19.22 | BIYA | :/ |
| 01:19.35 | BIYA | Wings is okay |
| 01:19.42 | BIYA | less confusing |
| 01:20.03 | JeffM2501 | it allways takes time for a modeler to find the tool they mesh well with |
| 01:20.14 | JeffM2501 | did you try that build of the model tool? does it still crash? |
| 01:20.18 | BIYA | 3 weeks to be exact |
| 01:20.29 | BIYA | hold on i will |
| 01:22.52 | Aribeth | i found a tree in 3ds format and exported it into a wavefront format, but when i ran modeltool on it the tree is on its side. |
| 01:24.00 | Aribeth | in wings its right side up though |
| 01:25.16 | JeffM2501 | wingz uses Y as "UP" |
| 01:25.20 | JeffM2501 | bz uses Z |
| 01:25.27 | JeffM2501 | there is a command line switch |
| 01:25.28 | Aribeth | ahh |
| 01:25.35 | JeffM2501 | -flipYZ |
| 01:25.57 | Aribeth | i'll try it |
| 01:25.59 | trepan | new version is -yz |
| 01:26.17 | BIYA | The y axis in wings confuses me |
| 01:26.17 | Aribeth | i did that and its still on its side |
| 01:26.44 | Aribeth | im building wine now so i can try anim8tor |
| 01:27.15 | trepan | wings3d also has a flipYZ type switch for its OBJ exporting |
| 01:27.16 | Aribeth | blender's interface is confusing |
| 01:27.20 | BIYA | That thing sucked |
| 01:27.33 | trepan | it just takes some getting used to |
| 01:27.50 | BIYA | #1 Wings3D #2 Anim8tor #3 Blender |
| 01:28.06 | *** join/#bzflag blast007 (~blast007@24-196-92-143.jvl.wi.charter.com) |
| 01:28.25 | hepcat | hepcat officially rehosting the babel ctf map |
| 01:28.36 | BIYA | Jeff a little problem |
| 01:28.38 | Aribeth | so far i havn't gotten anything usefull from blender |
| 01:29.33 | trepan | blender is much better for texture mapping, much more powerful then wings3d in terms of overall functionality |
| 01:29.59 | Aribeth | true, but dificult to learn though |
| 01:30.12 | JeffM2501 | ? |
| 01:31.19 | bzflagwiz | I like Moray as a modeller, but I don't think there is a convenient export path to get an OBJ... |
| 01:31.40 | BIYA | When I tryed to open it after I downloaded it it showed the comman line and disappeared |
| 01:32.08 | JeffM2501 | well duh |
| 01:32.18 | JeffM2501 | you don't double clicke it |
| 01:32.25 | JeffM2501 | you NEVER double click them |
| 01:32.30 | JeffM2501 | run from a terminal |
| 01:32.45 | BIYA | nooooo Im using Firefox |
| 01:32.58 | BIYA | download it and it goes to my download tool thingy |
| 01:33.04 | Aribeth | oooookkkkk! |
| 01:33.16 | JeffM2501 | that sounds like you need to learn how to use firefox then |
| 01:33.21 | BIYA | then I have to go to the download tool and open what I downloaded |
| 01:33.22 | JeffM2501 | you have it set to auto run EXEs? |
| 01:33.25 | JeffM2501 | wow |
| 01:33.29 | JeffM2501 | talk about unsecure |
| 01:33.36 | BIYA | what |
| 01:33.43 | JeffM2501 | you don't want to open it |
| 01:33.45 | JeffM2501 | you want to copy it |
| 01:33.49 | JeffM2501 | and replace your existing one |
| 01:34.45 | BIYA | The other model tool opened just find |
| 01:34.50 | BIYA | fine* |
| 01:35.04 | JeffM2501 | dono what you mean by "opened"? |
| 01:35.09 | JeffM2501 | the other one was a zip file IIRC |
| 01:35.12 | JeffM2501 | not a raw exe |
| 01:35.20 | JeffM2501 | this is just the app |
| 01:35.23 | JeffM2501 | no packages |
| 01:35.44 | BIYA | I see so where ever I saved it it will be there? |
| 01:35.52 | JeffM2501 | no |
| 01:35.55 | bzflagwiz | BIYA - You need to get one of the firefox extensions for handling downloads. Firefox's default download window doesn't give you the option to open the folder you just downloaded to like Internet Explorer used to. |
| 01:35.56 | JeffM2501 | not knowing what you did |
| 01:36.03 | BIYA | doh |
| 01:36.05 | JeffM2501 | how can we even anser it |
| 01:36.13 | BIYA | I know now |
| 01:36.20 | BIYA | so used to zip files |
| 01:36.44 | *** join/#bzflag wizart (~wizart@dsl-084-058-008-155.arcor-ip.net) |
| 01:37.43 | JeffM2501 | dude I just wanted you to try a difrent build of an exe, didn't know it was going to be this freaking hard |
| 01:39.01 | BIYA | I got it under control now |
| 01:39.56 | JeffM2501 | huzzah! |
| 01:40.59 | *** part/#bzflag Punkus (~chris@222.153.210.20) |
| 01:41.03 | BIYA | nope didnt work |
| 01:41.18 | JeffM2501 | run from the command line |
| 01:41.20 | JeffM2501 | see what happens |
| 01:41.23 | JeffM2501 | any errors? |
| 01:41.34 | JeffM2501 | do other files work? |
| 01:41.56 | BIYA | The command line came up but I didnt have eough time to read what it said |
| 01:42.04 | BIYA | tryed to files |
| 01:42.10 | JeffM2501 | that is why I say run it FROM the command line |
| 01:42.12 | JeffM2501 | don't drag |
| 01:42.17 | JeffM2501 | then the terminal will show the text |
| 01:42.45 | BIYA | How...... I changed my command line alittle bit.... the start in section |
| 01:42.58 | JeffM2501 | huh? |
| 01:43.12 | JeffM2501 | just run your cmd |
| 01:43.16 | JeffM2501 | then CD to the dir |
| 01:43.20 | *** join/#bzflag bz6971 (~44abc605@webchat.bzflag.bz) |
| 01:43.22 | JeffM2501 | and run the tool with the model file name |
| 01:43.38 | JeffM2501 | you run a server right? same kinda command line stuff |
| 01:44.37 | JeffM2501 | and I'm removing your thread about the admin problems with bob |
| 01:44.39 | JeffM2501 | bobo |
| 01:44.40 | BIYA | so where the model tool is run in that directory |
| 01:44.44 | JeffM2501 | that's all between you guys |
| 01:44.48 | JeffM2501 | not for a public forum |
| 01:44.54 | BIYA | go ahead |
| 01:45.01 | JeffM2501 | yes you have to CD to the dir where the tool is |
| 01:45.08 | BIYA | k |
| 01:45.38 | BIYA | type what? |
| 01:45.44 | JeffM2501 | wow |
| 01:45.50 | BIYA | lol |
| 01:45.55 | BIYA | just making sure |
| 01:45.56 | JeffM2501 | perhaps you should take a computer class man |
| 01:46.04 | JeffM2501 | use the gray matter |
| 01:46.29 | BIYA | use what? |
| 01:46.39 | JeffM2501 | *sigh* |
| 01:46.42 | JeffM2501 | brain |
| 01:46.43 | JeffM2501 | head |
| 01:46.46 | JeffM2501 | noggin |
| 01:46.48 | JeffM2501 | mellon |
| 01:47.12 | BIYA | I already did the cd thing |
| 01:47.21 | BIYA | change directory |
| 01:47.30 | JeffM2501 | and what is the normal way to run an application from the command line? |
| 01:47.32 | BIYA | just dont know what to type to convert it |
| 01:47.34 | *** join/#bzflag bz6526 (~50038005@webchat.bzflag.bz) |
| 01:48.12 | bz6526 | what is this?anyone? |
| 01:48.20 | JeffM2501 | this is an IRC channel |
| 01:48.31 | JeffM2501 | BIYA, modeltool.exe thenameofyourobjfile.obj |
| 01:48.33 | bz6526 | how did i get here?weird |
| 01:48.44 | BIYA | thank you |
| 01:48.46 | JeffM2501 | you went to a web page on bzflag.org |
| 01:48.57 | bz6526 | no i didnt |
| 01:49.02 | JeffM2501 | yes you did |
| 01:49.13 | bz6526 | who is bz6526? |
| 01:49.17 | JeffM2501 | you |
| 01:49.33 | bz6526 | its not |
| 01:49.45 | BIYA | modeltool.exe spider.obj |
| 01:50.01 | JeffM2501 | if that's the name of your object |
| 01:50.05 | JeffM2501 | and its' in the same dir |
| 01:50.06 | JeffM2501 | then yeah |
| 01:50.20 | bz6526 | errrrrrr? |
| 01:50.44 | JeffM2501 | bz6526, you went here, http://my.bzflag.org/irc/irc.cgi and clicked the button |
| 01:50.47 | JeffM2501 | that put you on IRC |
| 01:50.58 | JeffM2501 | if you did not intend that then just close the window |
| 01:51.21 | bz6526 | didnt....found it in some goggle hack crap sorry will go now |
| 01:52.05 | BIYA | not a fellow bzflag player? |
| 01:52.49 | BIYA | btw jeff it worked |
| 01:53.42 | PrezKennedy | that was weird |
| 01:53.49 | BIYA | yeah |
| 01:54.13 | *** join/#bzflag O_o (~acd817f8@webchat.bzflag.bz) |
| 01:54.35 | O_o | . |
| 01:55.00 | BIYA | O_o |
| 01:55.09 | O_o | o_O |
| 01:55.20 | JeffM2501 | is it kiddie day? |
| 01:55.22 | BIYA | looks so weird |
| 01:55.33 | PrezKennedy | i dunno... is it? |
| 01:55.37 | BIYA | na just decided to e a little imature |
| 01:55.40 | PrezKennedy | maybe moron day? |
| 01:55.45 | PrezKennedy | :-P |
| 01:57.07 | BIYA | Jeff |
| 01:57.09 | Aribeth | looks like it! |
| 01:57.24 | BIYA | do I call the mesh somthin to make a group? |
| 01:57.52 | JeffM2501 | no |
| 01:58.00 | JeffM2501 | you put it in a group definition |
| 01:58.12 | BIYA | Right now I feel like a moron for asking these questions and getting put down bye jeff |
| 01:58.28 | BIYA | dont understand |
| 01:58.37 | JeffM2501 | trepan, why do we even bother? |
| 01:58.48 | BIYA | lol |
| 01:58.59 | BIYA | cause yall like to help little kids? |
| 01:59.03 | JeffM2501 | BIYA, sorry if you feel bad, but dude all this stuff has been gone over on BZBB, and you were a HUGE part of those discussions |
| 01:59.17 | JeffM2501 | so it boggles me why you are asking about such BASIC things |
| 01:59.25 | BIYA | i was?!?!?!?!?! |
| 01:59.31 | BIYA | wow |
| 01:59.41 | JeffM2501 | dude you even made a post about using "lines" |
| 01:59.51 | hepcat | game ovber. |
| 01:59.54 | BIYA | that I remember but |
| 02:00.17 | BIYA | Right now im working on this group stuff |
| 02:00.34 | JeffM2501 | have you even read the bzw man page? |
| 02:00.44 | BIYA | trepan used a group for his lazy rock that I use all the time |
| 02:00.54 | JeffM2501 | BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
| 02:00.55 | BIYA | I have read it I did'nt lke it |
| 02:01.17 | JeffM2501 | so basicly you didn't read it |
| 02:01.18 | BIYA | maybe I should go look at the rock object |
| 02:01.22 | JeffM2501 | you skimed it and glazed over |
| 02:01.32 | BIYA | maybe |
| 02:01.32 | JeffM2501 | what do you think |
| 02:01.39 | BIYA | read some basic parts |
| 02:01.40 | JeffM2501 | just say you didn't read it then |
| 02:01.47 | BIYA | some I didint unerstand |
| 02:01.52 | JeffM2501 | have you even tied to go look up the group part right now |
| 02:02.00 | JeffM2501 | or just sat here waiting to be spoon feed |
| 02:02.16 | BIYA | Your good jeff your good |
| 02:02.45 | JeffM2501 | cus if I'm doing spoon feeding I'm gonna be making airplane noises and making you say "ahhhhh" :) |
| 02:02.46 | BIYA | ill go to the man page |
| 02:02.51 | BIYA | lol!!!!! |
| 02:03.48 | PrezKennedy | open the hangar doors!!! bzzzzzzzzwwwwww!!!! in goes the airplane! |
| 02:04.05 | BIYA | Okay now where is it again? |
| 02:04.14 | JeffM2501 | where is what? |
| 02:04.19 | BIYA | I thought it was at bzflag.org |
| 02:04.23 | JeffM2501 | it is |
| 02:04.24 | BIYA | man pages |
| 02:04.36 | PrezKennedy | its painful |
| 02:04.38 | JeffM2501 | what link on the main page do you think you would go to for geting help? |
| 02:04.45 | trepan | PrezKennedy: that's what i figured |
| 02:05.27 | BIYA | found it |
| 02:05.35 | JeffM2501 | amazing |
| 02:05.41 | *** join/#bzflag bz5188 (~50038005@webchat.bzflag.bz) |
| 02:06.29 | Aribeth | havn't laughed this much in 2 weeks |
| 02:06.42 | JeffM2501 | how do they get thru school? |
| 02:06.55 | JeffM2501 | is it all just memorisation now? |
| 02:07.17 | BIYA | Geeks and cheating...... no I passed every test and have not failed yet |
| 02:07.37 | JeffM2501 | but what are the tests? |
| 02:07.41 | JeffM2501 | just reguritation? |
| 02:07.49 | JeffM2501 | cus you don't have a research skill to your name |
| 02:07.50 | trepan | high student/teacher ratio, push 'em through the grinder |
| 02:08.01 | BIYA | The Group Instantiation object |
| 02:08.05 | hepcat | "Babel map is copyright and you thieves stole it now see what happens" |
| 02:08.05 | *** join/#bzflag wegstar (~foo@adsl-67-123-172-203.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) |
| 02:08.07 | *** join/#bzflag Pimpi (~frank@p54819E53.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 02:08.20 | JeffM2501 | BIYA what does that sound like it does? |
| 02:08.31 | wegstar | hey BIYA |
| 02:08.32 | *** join/#bzflag darth_mall (~evan@128.138.74.40) |
| 02:08.34 | BIYA | dunnp |
| 02:08.35 | trepan | ~dict instantiation |
| 02:08.52 | wegstar | long time no see :) |
| 02:08.54 | BIYA | thanks |
| 02:08.59 | BIYA | hey wegstar |
| 02:09.17 | spldart | ... My apoligies to JeffM for all my n00b questions :-0 |
| 02:09.25 | BIYA | lol |
| 02:09.58 | JeffM2501 | spldart, I don't mind the quesions, what I mind is them being asked and no learning coming from the answers :) |
| 02:10.07 | JeffM2501 | you have never realy asked the same quesion 2x |
| 02:10.13 | PrezKennedy | the lights are on but no ones home |
| 02:10.16 | JeffM2501 | and you seem to know how to take a ball and run with it |
| 02:10.24 | spldart | But I've come terribly close ;) :p |
| 02:10.29 | spldart | hehe |
| 02:10.42 | wegstar | heh |
| 02:10.44 | Aribeth | the power co. shut off the power. |
| 02:10.46 | JeffM2501 | yeah but after it was all said and done, I think you do have a handle on the basic concepts now |
| 02:10.55 | spldart | Methinks |
| 02:10.57 | JeffM2501 | you have moved into higher level things |
| 02:11.07 | spldart | Like learning linux real fast |
| 02:11.12 | spldart | So I can switch servers |
| 02:11.16 | JeffM2501 | I haven't seen you say "how do I copy a file" :) |
| 02:11.17 | spldart | LOL |
| 02:11.26 | BIYA | okay |
| 02:11.29 | *** join/#bzflag Tegan (~lyra@dsl081-067-057.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 02:11.57 | spldart | Well... Thanks for the patience you've shown me. :-D |
| 02:12.17 | BIYA | Everytime I come here and ask a question I get laughed and yelled at for being SLOW not stupid SLOW] |
| 02:12.33 | JeffM2501 | we arn't laughing at you |
| 02:12.34 | wegstar | typing SLOW? |
| 02:12.46 | JeffM2501 | we are just anoyed that you seem to need every step lined out |
| 02:12.48 | JeffM2501 | one by one |
| 02:12.49 | BIYA | slow in the head....... figuring out stuff |
| 02:12.55 | JeffM2501 | then just take your time |
| 02:12.57 | JeffM2501 | read up on stuff |
| 02:13.02 | BIYA | I am |
| 02:13.04 | JeffM2501 | learn how to use your computer |
| 02:13.17 | BIYA | but if I dont know the stuff im reading then whats the pointt? |
| 02:13.22 | wegstar | what's wrong? |
| 02:13.23 | BIYA | that I know how |
| 02:13.24 | spldart | I slammed the search function on BZBB when I started |
| 02:13.26 | JeffM2501 | that's my point |
| 02:13.28 | spldart | Everyone should |
| 02:13.31 | JeffM2501 | you don't know the basics |
| 02:13.38 | JeffM2501 | yet your in somewhat advanced tertory |
| 02:13.46 | JeffM2501 | making maps is a development type task |
| 02:13.59 | BIYA | Im quite good at it |
| 02:14.00 | JeffM2501 | yet you seem to have little basic computer knowledge |
| 02:14.10 | JeffM2501 | yeah, at the shuffling around of premade stuff |
| 02:14.15 | JeffM2501 | you make good object maps |
| 02:14.17 | BIYA | :) |
| 02:14.20 | JeffM2501 | now your moving into deeper stuff |
| 02:14.34 | JeffM2501 | so your starting to get out of the realm of your suporting computer knowledge |
| 02:14.45 | spldart | Same as I did a bit. |
| 02:14.45 | BIYA | I said when I first got here I know HARDWARE not SOFTWARE!!!! |
| 02:14.53 | JeffM2501 | the lack of a visual editor seems to have screwed you all over.. hardcore |
| 02:15.02 | BIYA | yeah |
| 02:15.06 | Tegan | hardware - software = paperweight |
| 02:15.08 | JeffM2501 | BIYA, then why are you trying to be a modeler? |
| 02:15.16 | JeffM2501 | modeling is all software |
| 02:15.25 | BIYA | im trying to learn software now |
| 02:15.26 | JeffM2501 | noththing says you have to know about only 1 thing |
| 02:15.32 | JeffM2501 | then you should start at the beginin |
| 02:15.35 | JeffM2501 | not the middle |
| 02:15.43 | JeffM2501 | tis a comon problme with the young |
| 02:15.45 | BIYA | what is the beginning? |
| 02:15.50 | JeffM2501 | simple tasks |
| 02:15.57 | JeffM2501 | like how applications work |
| 02:16.01 | JeffM2501 | how the command line works |
| 02:16.10 | BIYA | I know that and that |
| 02:16.24 | Tegan | "In the Beginning was the Command Line" - Neal Stephenson |
| 02:16.25 | JeffM2501 | you didn't know how to run the model tool from the command line |
| 02:16.30 | Aribeth | its about breaking a project down into managable parts |
| 02:16.32 | JeffM2501 | that's a basicl feature |
| 02:16.34 | wegstar | explore! |
| 02:16.41 | BIYA | lo |
| 02:16.41 | spldart | How to get to a directory the long way. cd program files/bz/bzflag2.0.2/data.etc etc |
| 02:16.56 | BIYA | now I know thanks to jef |
| 02:16.58 | JeffM2501 | you told me once that my model tool didn't work, cus you draged and all it did was copy the file |
| 02:17.09 | JeffM2501 | to me that tells me you don't even know basic OS operation |
| 02:17.16 | BIYA | I didnt aim it right |
| 02:17.20 | JeffM2501 | exactly |
| 02:17.24 | wegstar | ??? |
| 02:17.27 | JeffM2501 | but the first thing you said about it was the tool was busted |
| 02:17.29 | BIYA | pure accidental |
| 02:17.38 | JeffM2501 | did it even occur to you that you missed? |
| 02:17.50 | BIYA | It did but I just wanted yto make sure |
| 02:17.52 | Tegan | didn't I just hear this conversation among tanks? |
| 02:17.58 | JeffM2501 | did you even try again and not miss? |
| 02:18.11 | JeffM2501 | or did you just post and wait? |
| 02:18.14 | BIYA | and I have never encountered a progrman that need to be dragged over to work |
| 02:18.20 | Aribeth | basic troubleshooting skills = rtfm, search, study, then ask. |
| 02:18.28 | Tegan | maybe it was lag |
| 02:18.29 | JeffM2501 | so you've never used things like office? |
| 02:18.34 | JeffM2501 | or a text editor? |
| 02:18.42 | JeffM2501 | or anything that does drag and drop? |
| 02:18.47 | BIYA | probably not |
| 02:18.56 | JeffM2501 | that is why I say you need to learn more about how your OS works |
| 02:19.09 | JeffM2501 | do you know what draging even did to that app? |
| 02:19.18 | spldart | May I ask what the OS in discussion is? |
| 02:19.27 | JeffM2501 | he's a windows guy |
| 02:19.35 | wegstar | run stuff, and if you don't know what it is or does research on it.. |
| 02:19.35 | BIYA | :-) |
| 02:19.36 | Aribeth | uggg! |
| 02:19.52 | spldart | I assume me, 2k, xp prolly? |
| 02:19.57 | JeffM2501 | I shold have never made it strip quotes |
| 02:20.06 | JeffM2501 | then they would have had to use the CLI |
| 02:20.15 | BIYA | Maybe it is the poblem that I have a slow conection and a slow computer? |
| 02:20.21 | JeffM2501 | no |
| 02:20.30 | JeffM2501 | these tools don't affect the speed |
| 02:20.37 | JeffM2501 | you just don't know how to fully use your computer |
| 02:20.39 | spldart | I keep $bash ing my brains on it |
| 02:20.44 | wegstar | lol |
| 02:20.44 | JeffM2501 | and don't want to admit it |
| 02:20.52 | JeffM2501 | kids never want to say they are lacking |
| 02:20.55 | JeffM2501 | it's a pride thing |
| 02:20.58 | JeffM2501 | we've all been there |
| 02:20.59 | Aribeth | speldart, once you learn it you will not want to go back to windowz |
| 02:21.05 | spldart | hehehe |
| 02:21.06 | BIYA | Well I admit that I dont know everything about xp |
| 02:21.14 | spldart | My guess is I'll be back and forth |
| 02:21.15 | JeffM2501 | unless you want to play real games spldart :) |
| 02:21.27 | spldart | like ut 2k4 |
| 02:21.33 | spldart | and far cry |
| 02:21.38 | JeffM2501 | and WoW |
| 02:21.40 | spldart | yep |
| 02:21.47 | JeffM2501 | tho you can do WoW on the mac |
| 02:21.49 | BIYA | rainbowsox 3 |
| 02:21.50 | Aribeth | speldart, take the time to learn it good, and you will fine it very usefull. |
| 02:21.51 | JeffM2501 | so kudos to them |
| 02:21.55 | BIYA | oops |
| 02:22.02 | spldart | I'm sure |
| 02:22.06 | JeffM2501 | just install XP and cygwin, it's nixish :) |
| 02:22.36 | Aribeth | true, but i have no real need for windows |
| 02:22.37 | spldart | I'm still fighting with a problem I have getting a piece of software installed on linux when I have an issue of circular depediencie |
| 02:22.38 | spldart | s |
| 02:22.41 | JeffM2501 | I've even seen linux users install XP and after it's configed say "wow, this does suck a lot less" |
| 02:23.00 | BIYA | Right now I have been working on understanding cosmetic stuff with the OS.... Is that a good start? |
| 02:23.16 | JeffM2501 | it's cosmetic |
| 02:23.19 | JeffM2501 | it dosn't real mater |
| 02:23.25 | JeffM2501 | you want to learn how computers work |
| 02:23.31 | JeffM2501 | how they have to be told to do all things |
| 02:23.33 | JeffM2501 | step by step |
| 02:23.36 | spldart | Cosmetics are skin depp ;) |
| 02:23.39 | spldart | dep |
| 02:23.41 | BIYA | I mean backgrounds windows blinds logon screens boot screens |
| 02:23.44 | spldart | Grr |
| 02:24.01 | spldart | My eeeeeeee is doing something wrong (doesn't want to admit he messed up |
| 02:24.07 | spldart | ;-p |
| 02:24.12 | JeffM2501 | and how do those affect anything other then how things work |
| 02:24.24 | JeffM2501 | how do those affect the applications and games and tools you run? |
| 02:24.53 | BIYA | nowing how to make them also I have been trying to make my own wmp visulization |
| 02:25.05 | spldart | If you learn how to hack the reg's to affect the OS's style and appearance then you know something about the OS |
| 02:25.07 | JeffM2501 | same quesion applys to that |
| 02:25.27 | BIYA | Dunno |
| 02:25.35 | JeffM2501 | think hard about it |
| 02:25.46 | Aribeth | 90% of what i do is at the command line. |
| 02:25.46 | JeffM2501 | work out how it all connects to gether |
| 02:25.57 | JeffM2501 | don't blame it on being 'slow" just figure it out |
| 02:25.59 | PrezKennedy | or... if you know NOT to hack the registry, you know something about the OS |
| 02:26.02 | BIYA | 10% of what I do is on the command line |
| 02:26.11 | JeffM2501 | 1% of what you do |
| 02:26.14 | spldart | NOT |
| 02:26.28 | spldart | Had to hack the registry on a few occasions |
| 02:26.37 | spldart | To get behavior I want. |
| 02:26.42 | JeffM2501 | have you even run the model tool via command line yet? |
| 02:26.49 | BIYA | Man I need to stop coming here for problems |
| 02:26.53 | Aribeth | it is very easy to break the registry and render the computer unbootable |
| 02:26.55 | spldart | Panasonic Touchscreens on the ToughBook laptops come to mind. |
| 02:27.03 | JeffM2501 | you can come here, you just need to put more effort into it |
| 02:27.12 | JeffM2501 | I'm sorry if it seems like we are dumping on you |
| 02:27.12 | BIYA | Jeff you just told me to!!!!!! and I did!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and it worked!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
| 02:27.14 | JeffM2501 | it is not my intent |
| 02:27.22 | spldart | Assuming you don't wreck the OS :rolleyes:L |
| 02:27.22 | JeffM2501 | BIYA, it worked? |
| 02:27.23 | JeffM2501 | cool |
| 02:27.28 | JeffM2501 | that's what I wanted to see |
| 02:27.41 | JeffM2501 | but you kept asking little trivial quesions |
| 02:27.43 | JeffM2501 | about groups |
| 02:27.57 | BIYA | I told you it did.... maybe you were to busy yelling at me to learn |
| 02:28.02 | JeffM2501 | and don't listen to spldart, don't havk your register |
| 02:28.09 | spldart | :( |
| 02:28.10 | JeffM2501 | oh I'm no yelling |
| 02:28.12 | JeffM2501 | not at all |
| 02:28.27 | spldart | But I had too :( |
| 02:28.29 | spldart | hehe |
| 02:28.30 | JeffM2501 | so if you drag it crashes |
| 02:28.38 | JeffM2501 | but via command line it works and makes a good file? |
| 02:28.58 | BIYA | up |
| 02:29.10 | JeffM2501 | XP home or pro? |
| 02:29.17 | spldart | Me? |
| 02:29.18 | BIYA | home |
| 02:29.20 | JeffM2501 | and where is the tool and the file? |
| 02:29.23 | spldart | my bad |
| 02:29.36 | JeffM2501 | are they in the same dir? |
| 02:30.33 | BIYA | <PROTECTED> |
| 02:30.37 | BIYA | they are |
| 02:30.46 | JeffM2501 | were they in the same dir when you draged? |
| 02:30.55 | BIYA | the modeltool is where I save all my obj |
| 02:31.01 | JeffM2501 | hmm |
| 02:31.06 | JeffM2501 | dono then |
| 02:31.18 | JeffM2501 | draging just calls it with the command line as the file name |
| 02:31.25 | JeffM2501 | well run it with the command line then |
| 02:31.32 | JeffM2501 | guess XP home has a drag problem |
| 02:31.57 | BIYA | must be |
| 02:32.09 | JeffM2501 | or it's local to your system |
| 02:32.22 | JeffM2501 | the tool is designed to be command line |
| 02:32.34 | JeffM2501 | draging is just a convinent way to get the CLI in there |
| 02:32.56 | JeffM2501 | XP home isn't too bad |
| 02:32.59 | *** join/#bzflag brad2901 (brad2901@ACD817F8.ipt.aol.com) |
| 02:33.02 | JeffM2501 | once you turn off the flair |
| 02:33.07 | BIYA | came with the computer |
| 02:33.08 | JeffM2501 | pro coprorate is better |
| 02:33.17 | spldart | I run Pro Corp |
| 02:33.17 | BIYA | whats the flair? |
| 02:33.30 | JeffM2501 | the lame default theme |
| 02:33.36 | JeffM2501 | the hiding of system files |
| 02:33.43 | JeffM2501 | and the sidebar tips and that stuff |
| 02:33.46 | Aribeth | it hoggs resources too |
| 02:33.48 | JeffM2501 | and the fade effects |
| 02:33.49 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 02:33.54 | BIYA | lol dont worry everythingrelating to themes is chaged!!! |
| 02:33.54 | JeffM2501 | once you get that cleaned up it's fine |
| 02:33.54 | spldart | But after a fresh install I heavily modify services and on some machines a couple of quick regedits |
| 02:34.12 | JeffM2501 | I just use the controll pannel |
| 02:34.17 | JeffM2501 | and turn stuff of the normal way |
| 02:34.23 | JeffM2501 | and install some utilitys |
| 02:34.30 | JeffM2501 | works a lot better then hacking a reg |
| 02:34.49 | spldart | I can't get to some stuff the 'normal' way :( |
| 02:34.51 | JeffM2501 | on the same machine XP and X with KDe or gnome use about the same amouth of ram |
| 02:34.56 | spldart | BTW |
| 02:35.13 | JeffM2501 | once you can get linux and X installed |
| 02:35.14 | spldart | does XP Pro support the libcurl issue my old 98 machine doesn't? |
| 02:35.29 | JeffM2501 | I'ver never had an issue on XP with lib CURL |
| 02:35.42 | JeffM2501 | techincaly they ALL should spport it |
| 02:35.43 | Aribeth | i use Gentoo. it takes time, but it works fine |
| 02:35.48 | spldart | ic |
| 02:35.48 | JeffM2501 | gentoo kicks my ass |
| 02:36.03 | JeffM2501 | all I can get installed is stuff like debian, FC, and the like |
| 02:36.07 | Aribeth | how so? |
| 02:36.25 | JeffM2501 | I never know what options to build into my kernel |
| 02:36.54 | JeffM2501 | I have little linux legacy knowledge |
| 02:37.07 | Aribeth | that is the hard part. if you ever need a kernel config just ask. |
| 02:37.17 | *** join/#bzflag RedShirt (~4454b84a@webchat.bzflag.bz) |
| 02:37.20 | JeffM2501 | so I don't know that the soundblaster driver isnt' called "the sound blaster driver" but the "E90x1" driver or something |
| 02:37.32 | Aribeth | yup |
| 02:37.43 | spldart | I had that problem.. But with the old ati vid cards :( |
| 02:37.46 | JeffM2501 | why they can't just put a human readable name on the thing boggles me |
| 02:37.58 | JeffM2501 | or auto detect the stuff |
| 02:38.08 | JeffM2501 | I mean plug and play is like HOW old now? |
| 02:38.14 | Aribeth | yep, i wish they would change that |
| 02:38.39 | Aribeth | once i get a good kernek config i save it and archive it. |
| 02:38.44 | JeffM2501 | and things like each window manager has it's own display controll pannel |
| 02:38.49 | JeffM2501 | then X has it's own |
| 02:38.59 | JeffM2501 | when I set a display res, i want it to set for em all |
| 02:39.10 | JeffM2501 | I know it's cool that X and the WM are seperate |
| 02:39.27 | JeffM2501 | so I can pick and choose, but I realy need the stuff on the OS to work together |
| 02:39.41 | JeffM2501 | or I spend more time just changing setings in the OS then I do using the computer |
| 02:39.59 | Aribeth | i spent 1 week on this computer im on now. its dialed in now |
| 02:40.26 | Aribeth | i use a standard X config file as i only use nvidia cards |
| 02:40.46 | JeffM2501 | yeah it takes me about a week to get a linux system set up |
| 02:40.51 | JeffM2501 | and about 4 hours for windows |
| 02:41.07 | JeffM2501 | now the dev IDE does install a hella lot faster on linux |
| 02:41.19 | JeffM2501 | then VC71 and 6 |
| 02:41.31 | Aribeth | i think i had this system up with gentoo in 4 days all custom compiled |
| 02:41.48 | JeffM2501 | well I would not count compile time |
| 02:41.51 | JeffM2501 | it's cool that it can do that |
| 02:42.02 | JeffM2501 | I found out how long it takes to build office |
| 02:42.12 | Aribeth | yup |
| 02:42.18 | JeffM2501 | I mean MS office |
| 02:42.21 | JeffM2501 | not openOffice |
| 02:42.24 | Aribeth | ohh |
| 02:42.32 | JeffM2501 | friend of mine just got transferd to office build team |
| 02:42.42 | JeffM2501 | it takes a bit over 12 hours |
| 02:42.50 | JeffM2501 | to build all of office |
| 02:42.51 | Aribeth | i bet |
| 02:43.01 | JeffM2501 | spred out over 10 dedicated compiler systems |
| 02:43.15 | Aribeth | lol |
| 02:43.23 | JeffM2501 | now it's more then just word, and excell |
| 02:43.35 | JeffM2501 | there are like 120+ apps in a FULL office kit |
| 02:43.42 | Aribeth | yup |
| 02:44.02 | JeffM2501 | so I'd asume that if tehre was a way to build windows gentoo style it'd take a while |
| 02:44.12 | JeffM2501 | nix net installs are cool |
| 02:44.25 | JeffM2501 | but then XP installs are just one CD anyway |
| 02:44.33 | Aribeth | im getting good with gentoo |
| 02:44.45 | Aribeth | i prefer portage to rpm |
| 02:44.53 | JeffM2501 | I prefer apt to RPM |
| 02:45.00 | JeffM2501 | haven't got a point to use portage |
| 02:45.09 | JeffM2501 | I do have a 80 gig drive in the main system |
| 02:45.15 | JeffM2501 | that is now empty |
| 02:45.15 | Tegan | yum |
| 02:45.17 | Aribeth | emerge -C to remove a package |
| 02:45.30 | JeffM2501 | part of me says, just install gentoo on it and dualboot that system too |
| 02:45.35 | JeffM2501 | apt-get remove package :) |
| 02:46.13 | JeffM2501 | yay usb soundy thing works |
| 02:46.17 | JeffM2501 | sans drivers even |
| 02:46.25 | Aribeth | now gentoo on sparc is hard work |
| 02:47.27 | *** join/#bzflag BIYA (~04815758@webchat.bzflag.bz) |
| 02:47.40 | JeffM2501 | BIYA, did you get the group thing working? |
| 02:47.49 | BIYA | fing isp |
| 02:47.53 | wegstar | hehe |
| 02:47.55 | BIYA | kinda |
| 02:48.05 | BIYA | define planet |
| 02:48.06 | BIYA | mesh |
| 02:48.07 | JeffM2501 | it'll be just like any other prefab |
| 02:48.10 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 02:48.15 | JeffM2501 | then just instance the group and move it |
| 02:48.51 | BIYA | What is there is 2 objects in the one mesh? |
| 02:49.01 | JeffM2501 | dosn't mater |
| 02:49.11 | JeffM2501 | you have have as many objects in that group as you want |
| 02:49.13 | BIYA | make both of them in the gtoup? |
| 02:49.15 | spldart | I've tried Lycoris, RedHat, Gentoo, SuSe, Knoppix, Debian... and others. |
| 02:49.16 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 02:49.20 | JeffM2501 | slap in as many as you want |
| 02:49.23 | spldart | Knoppix is my favorite so far. |
| 02:49.27 | JeffM2501 | they will all then move as a group |
| 02:49.34 | JeffM2501 | so far I prefer debian |
| 02:49.42 | PrezKennedy | i like whichever has a decent FTP client and runs Java |
| 02:49.42 | JeffM2501 | the FC's are ok |
| 02:49.47 | JeffM2501 | they are realy PURDY |
| 02:50.28 | spldart | I think i like Knoppix cuz most everything i want is already installed and it supports hardware fairly well |
| 02:50.33 | JeffM2501 | can't you just run your ftp client on any distro? |
| 02:50.49 | PrezKennedy | exactly... im indifferent |
| 02:50.51 | JeffM2501 | I try not to judge disros on what they come with |
| 02:51.08 | JeffM2501 | but more on how easy/hard they are to install and get apps into |
| 02:51.14 | spldart | I have too cuz I'm to n00b to really do involved stuff with liinux distro's yet |
| 02:51.25 | JeffM2501 | cus that's all I realy need the to do |
| 02:51.31 | BIYA | Do I erase the mesh # sphere1_default on the second object? |
| 02:51.35 | JeffM2501 | going to use apps for the real work |
| 02:51.41 | JeffM2501 | BIYA, no |
| 02:51.45 | JeffM2501 | it's a new mesh object |
| 02:51.47 | JeffM2501 | in the group |
| 02:52.14 | JeffM2501 | you can have as many meshes in the group as you want |
| 02:52.17 | JeffM2501 | even another group |
| 02:52.19 | BIYA | so it knows that there is to objects even though there is a space inbetween them |
| 02:52.43 | JeffM2501 | it knows there are 2 meshes, because there are 2 mesh keywords |
| 02:52.58 | JeffM2501 | each mesh keyword is one mesh def |
| 02:53.11 | JeffM2501 | you could have 100 meshes in a group |
| 02:53.12 | BIYA | do just add group planet at the top and thats it? |
| 02:53.23 | JeffM2501 | or a mesh and a box and 25 pyramids |
| 02:53.24 | spldart | I love the ST flag and sneaking ;) |
| 02:53.39 | JeffM2501 | you add a group instance as many times as you want a planet |
| 02:53.45 | JeffM2501 | just as if it was a planet shaped object |
| 02:53.50 | JeffM2501 | and you move it to where you want it |
| 02:53.53 | JeffM2501 | just like a box |
| 02:54.11 | JeffM2501 | then all the meshes and objects and whatevers in the group move to that point |
| 02:54.12 | spldart | ooOOOooo This is stuff I was teaching myself with a little help from the bz peeps a few weeks ago :D |
| 02:54.21 | BIYA | I know.... group planet size rotation positipon |
| 02:54.26 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 02:54.37 | trepan | shift/scale/spin are preferred :) |
| 02:54.46 | JeffM2501 | it's called a "group" cus it has more then one thing in it |
| 02:55.10 | BIYA | but it has 2 endface |
| 02:55.25 | BIYA | doesnt that say thats the end of the group? |
| 02:55.58 | trepan | brown-out |
| 02:56.02 | BIYA | The light bulb is going away again |
| 02:56.06 | JeffM2501 | the end faces end each face |
| 02:56.11 | JeffM2501 | there is an end for the group def |
| 02:56.16 | JeffM2501 | and an end for each object |
| 02:56.20 | spldart | brown out? |
| 02:56.23 | JeffM2501 | and an end for the instance |
| 02:56.30 | spldart | oh |
| 02:56.48 | spldart | Duh.. I are smart :/ |
| 02:56.55 | BIYA | trepan? is your rock one object? |
| 02:57.37 | JeffM2501 | it's one mesh |
| 02:57.39 | JeffM2501 | in a group |
| 02:57.45 | JeffM2501 | with more then one instance of that group |
| 02:57.51 | BIYA | that I know |
| 02:58.25 | JeffM2501 | one mesh == one object |
| 02:59.20 | BIYA | enddef..................... |
| 02:59.44 | JeffM2501 | what about it? |
| 02:59.50 | BIYA | define planet |
| 03:00.17 | BIYA | then at the end of the mesh put enddef |
| 03:00.30 | JeffM2501 | the enddef goes AFTER the define |
| 03:00.33 | JeffM2501 | define thing |
| 03:00.33 | JeffM2501 | mesh |
| 03:00.36 | JeffM2501 | enddef |
| 03:00.44 | BIYA | yes |
| 03:00.51 | JeffM2501 | where mesh == the full mesh object |
| 03:00.58 | JeffM2501 | with the mesh and it's associated end |
| 03:01.11 | BIYA | Is that what I need to make it work? |
| 03:01.37 | JeffM2501 | it's what you need to make it a valid group |
| 03:01.40 | JeffM2501 | all groups have that |
| 03:01.54 | BIYA | :-D |
| 03:02.33 | spldart | Perhaps if he play with a .bzw with some random objects and toyed with the groups and looked at the code for a while... |
| 03:02.54 | spldart | That's alot of how I got this kinda figured out :/ |
| 03:03.13 | BIYA | Thats how I learn |
| 03:03.22 | BIYA | from other peoples work |
| 03:03.41 | BIYA | This group stuff right now al came from trepans rocks |
| 03:03.55 | spldart | Did you check out the test .bzw I put up or the test .bzw that louman put up? |
| 03:04.12 | BIYA | nope |
| 03:04.14 | spldart | It's a way of figuring how to do groups properly |
| 03:04.28 | BIYA | wheres the link? |
| 03:04.44 | JeffM2501 | bzbb |
| 03:04.45 | JeffM2501 | search |
| 03:04.49 | JeffM2501 | :) |
| 03:04.51 | BIYA | of course |
| 03:05.09 | spldart | LOouman did http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?t=3228 |
| 03:05.16 | BIYA | thanks |
| 03:05.21 | BIYA | :-P |
| 03:05.23 | spldart | I did http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?t=3199 |
| 03:05.53 | spldart | Multiple instances of some fun objects... You play with the numbers and even add more to the group. |
| 03:06.55 | BIYA | You all thought I was stupid look at schoot sheesh |
| 03:07.38 | JeffM2501 | ? |
| 03:07.49 | JeffM2501 | I don't think any of you are stupid |
| 03:07.55 | JeffM2501 | I think your just inexperienced |
| 03:08.33 | BIYA | okay then schoot is inexperirnced |
| 03:08.43 | JeffM2501 | who? |
| 03:09.01 | BIYA | schoot |
| 03:09.03 | spldart | Landshark even tutored me in placement and adding to groups in http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?t=3185 |
| 03:09.14 | JeffM2501 | dono anyone by that name |
| 03:09.35 | BIYA | go to the link spldart posted his first one |
| 03:09.56 | spldart | schoott? |
| 03:10.02 | spldart | In my first link? |
| 03:10.11 | JeffM2501 | ahhh |
| 03:10.17 | Aribeth | i never had much luck with deb |
| 03:10.18 | spldart | the cut and paster ;) |
| 03:10.20 | JeffM2501 | well I can understand that noob question |
| 03:10.30 | JeffM2501 | as most other games use them as include files |
| 03:10.37 | JeffM2501 | where you have to have the files to use them |
| 03:11.04 | JeffM2501 | quake map objects are not part of the world format but are actualy in the same format as the player models |
| 03:11.54 | trepan | bzw maps can use 'include' |
| 03:12.08 | JeffM2501 | they can |
| 03:12.18 | JeffM2501 | but it's a little difrent the quake |
| 03:12.35 | trepan | and i never finished it for proper relative includes |
| 03:13.15 | wegstar | hmm |
| 03:13.43 | BIYA | In loumans tank object he used 5 different groups to make the tank |
| 03:13.56 | JeffM2501 | well the obj had groups |
| 03:14.01 | JeffM2501 | and it was just converted |
| 03:14.01 | BIYA | none of these answer my question |
| 03:14.24 | JeffM2501 | define thing |
| 03:14.27 | JeffM2501 | mesh |
| 03:14.28 | JeffM2501 | end |
| 03:14.31 | JeffM2501 | enddef |
| 03:14.35 | JeffM2501 | that's it |
| 03:14.40 | BIYA | I did that alreadt |
| 03:14.45 | JeffM2501 | ok |
| 03:14.48 | JeffM2501 | then what else is there? |
| 03:14.49 | spldart | :( |
| 03:14.53 | BIYA | lol |
| 03:14.58 | BIYA | hold on let me test it |
| 03:15.01 | JeffM2501 | group thing |
| 03:15.02 | JeffM2501 | end |
| 03:16.53 | BIYA | does changin the size in the group planet object change the size in the define planet? |
| 03:17.01 | BIYA | or just leave it 0 0 0 |
| 03:17.13 | JeffM2501 | do you need to make the instance bigger or smaller? |
| 03:17.43 | BIYA | If I already made the object as big as I want it in the editor then no I dont |
| 03:17.52 | JeffM2501 | then don't even put in a sizwe |
| 03:18.05 | BIYA | you can do that wow :) |
| 03:18.13 | JeffM2501 | 0 is invalid for a size |
| 03:18.51 | BIYA | even make the positon the same? |
| 03:19.28 | BIYA | okay nvm |
| 03:19.41 | JeffM2501 | the pos is where you want the thing |
| 03:19.52 | JeffM2501 | if it's posed right in the mesh then you don't even need the group |
| 03:20.05 | BIYA | how can you tell? |
| 03:20.10 | JeffM2501 | you asked how to position it, so I asume you need some position |
| 03:20.27 | JeffM2501 | well when you MADE the object you know where you put it in 3d space right? |
| 03:20.35 | BIYA | yeah |
| 03:20.43 | BIYA | okay okay I got it |
| 03:20.45 | JeffM2501 | is that the right place on your map tthen? |
| 03:21.00 | BIYA | not really but I know how to move it |
| 03:21.27 | JeffM2501 | then thats the entire reason for puting it in a group |
| 03:21.33 | JeffM2501 | so you can set it to a new pos |
| 03:25.07 | BIYA | umm it should a whole bucnh of crap like invalid mesh faces and such |
| 03:26.03 | JeffM2501 | huh? |
| 03:26.11 | BIYA | im serious |
| 03:26.16 | JeffM2501 | I'm sure you are |
| 03:26.22 | JeffM2501 | but I still don't know what your saying |
| 03:26.35 | BIYA | The mesh wouldnt work |
| 03:26.42 | JeffM2501 | what were the errors |
| 03:26.43 | BIYA | wanna see for your self? |
| 03:26.47 | JeffM2501 | use complete sentances |
| 03:26.51 | JeffM2501 | tell us what the problem is |
| 03:26.59 | BIYA | tomany whent of the command line screen |
| 03:27.08 | JeffM2501 | it should a whole bunch? what does that mean? |
| 03:27.13 | JeffM2501 | what? |
| 03:27.14 | *** join/#bzflag Carnage (Carn@dyn216-8-132-86.ADSL.mnsi.net) |
| 03:27.22 | JeffM2501 | scroll up |
| 03:27.24 | JeffM2501 | read one |
| 03:27.29 | BIYA | mostly said invalid mesh faces |
| 03:27.31 | JeffM2501 | if you have invalid mesh faces |
| 03:27.35 | JeffM2501 | then find em and fix em |
| 03:27.47 | BIYA | Do you think I know how./ |
| 03:27.54 | JeffM2501 | probably missing an end |
| 03:27.56 | JeffM2501 | you know the format |
| 03:28.07 | JeffM2501 | you can verify it is correct |
| 03:28.38 | JeffM2501 | or post the map so we can see |
| 03:29.03 | BIYA | bzbb? |
| 03:29.23 | JeffM2501 | pastebin is best |
| 03:29.41 | BIYA | whats that? |
| 03:30.00 | JeffM2501 | like imageshack but for test |
| 03:30.02 | JeffM2501 | text |
| 03:30.15 | BIYA | can you give me a link |
| 03:30.30 | JeffM2501 | pastebin.com |
| 03:32.16 | BIYA | http://pastebin.com/263590 |
| 03:33.43 | *** join/#bzflag Noodleman (~tuckerm@12-210-69-176.client.insightBB.com) |
| 03:34.56 | JeffM2501 | looks good to me |
| 03:35.07 | JeffM2501 | does it give a line number in the errors in bzfs? |
| 03:36.37 | BIYA | dont know..... when I scroled up it already whent over the limit on what it could show |
| 03:37.19 | JeffM2501 | log it to a file then |
| 03:37.27 | BIYA | ? |
| 03:37.35 | JeffM2501 | bzfs -whatever > log.txt |
| 03:37.43 | JeffM2501 | that will dump the output to a text file |
| 03:38.01 | BIYA | so make a file called log.txt.. and put it in the comman line? |
| 03:38.39 | BIYA | just like a variable file |
| 03:38.52 | JeffM2501 | it will make the file |
| 03:38.55 | JeffM2501 | it's an OS feature |
| 03:38.59 | BIYA | -vars var.txt |
| 03:39.00 | JeffM2501 | redirect |
| 03:39.09 | JeffM2501 | that is a bzflag command line |
| 03:39.23 | JeffM2501 | the > goes after the app and then tells the OS to redirect the output |
| 03:40.05 | BIYA | bzfs.exe -world planet.bzw -d -d -d -password 1 -public "Test. Server restarts alot." log.txt |
| 03:40.56 | BIYA | ? |
| 03:41.10 | wegstar | argh |
| 03:41.19 | BIYA | lol |
| 03:41.24 | wegstar | somebody says that the server does not allow them to talk.. why??? |
| 03:41.30 | wegstar | some missing perm? |
| 03:41.41 | orange | which server? |
| 03:41.49 | wegstar | 1veedo.homelinux.com |
| 03:41.54 | JeffM2501 | some servers have reg for chat |
| 03:41.57 | JeffM2501 | it's a server seting |
| 03:42.05 | BIYA | I thought it was hepcat overlord that didnt let people talk |
| 03:42.05 | JeffM2501 | BIYA, no you use the > |
| 03:42.15 | JeffM2501 | bzfs -whatever -whaever > log.txt |
| 03:42.21 | BIYA | bzfs.exe -world planet.bzw -d -d -d -password 1 -public "Test. Server restarts alot." >log.txt |
| 03:42.22 | orange | perhaps it is becoming a trend |
| 03:42.55 | wegstar | must be missing perm |
| 03:43.05 | BIYA | space inbete\ween the > and log? |
| 03:43.07 | JeffM2501 | it's > space log |
| 03:43.08 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 03:43.13 | BIYA | lol |
| 03:43.15 | JeffM2501 | just like I typed |
| 03:44.45 | BIYA | umm |
| 03:44.54 | *** join/#bzflag bzflagwiz_ (~wiz@12-240-60-115.client.mchsi.com) |
| 03:44.55 | BIYA | what was sopposed to happen? |
| 03:45.05 | JeffM2501 | all the output is dumped to the file |
| 03:45.16 | BIYA | wheres the file? |
| 03:45.26 | JeffM2501 | where ever you told it to put it |
| 03:45.47 | BIYA | is it where bzfs is? |
| 03:45.59 | JeffM2501 | if that was the dir you ran it from |
| 03:46.00 | JeffM2501 | yes |
| 03:47.40 | BIYA | 30KB of text |
| 03:48.05 | BIYA | non-convex mesh face |
| 03:48.24 | BIYA | couldn't find reference material: default |
| 03:48.33 | BIYA | planet.bzw: warning (line 170): unknown object parameter "matref" - skipping |
| 03:48.48 | BIYA | invalid mesh face |
| 03:48.54 | JeffM2501 | one of your faces is bad |
| 03:49.00 | JeffM2501 | it's concave |
| 03:49.03 | BIYA | alot of them are |
| 03:49.08 | JeffM2501 | fix them in the modeler |
| 03:49.21 | JeffM2501 | basicly if you were to put a rubber band around the face |
| 03:49.21 | BIYA | I dont knoew |
| 03:49.32 | JeffM2501 | the band has to touch every edge |
| 03:49.43 | spldart | Woah.. I've left my bzfs server alone long enought to have a /uptime of 3 days 5 hours etc etc |
| 03:50.07 | BIYA | dont understand jeff |
| 03:50.33 | JeffM2501 | ok |
| 03:50.36 | JeffM2501 | for any face |
| 03:50.43 | JeffM2501 | thing about it if you had cut it out of paper |
| 03:50.50 | JeffM2501 | it would make a polygon right? |
| 03:50.58 | BIYA | whats a face |
| 03:51.12 | JeffM2501 | like a triangle |
| 03:51.18 | BIYA | i see |
| 03:51.20 | JeffM2501 | or a quad that is the side of a box |
| 03:51.33 | JeffM2501 | a polygon |
| 03:51.37 | JeffM2501 | do you know what a polygon is? |
| 03:51.55 | BIYA | 5 or 6 sides? |
| 03:52.00 | JeffM2501 | N |
| 03:52.06 | JeffM2501 | poly meaning MANY |
| 03:52.21 | BIYA | okay..... |
| 03:53.04 | JeffM2501 | do you undersand that your mesh is made of polygons? |
| 03:53.18 | BIYA | yeah |
| 03:53.32 | JeffM2501 | each polygon is a face |
| 03:53.40 | brlcad | my backface is culled |
| 03:53.40 | JeffM2501 | some of your faces are cocave |
| 03:53.45 | JeffM2501 | concave |
| 03:53.54 | BIYA | that is? |
| 03:54.06 | JeffM2501 | ok imagine a square |
| 03:54.13 | JeffM2501 | a 4 sided polygoin |
| 03:54.24 | BIYA | okay |
| 03:54.34 | JeffM2501 | now imagine if you put a rubber band around it |
| 03:54.43 | JeffM2501 | so the band hits very point |
| 03:54.50 | BIYA | yup |
| 03:54.52 | JeffM2501 | if it was a square |
| 03:55.00 | JeffM2501 | then the band would hit all 4 sides right? |
| 03:55.06 | BIYA | yes |
| 03:55.17 | JeffM2501 | now take one of the points on that square |
| 03:55.28 | JeffM2501 | and move it tward the oposet diagonal point |
| 03:55.29 | BIYA | okay |
| 03:55.37 | JeffM2501 | past the center of the square |
| 03:55.46 | BIYA | okay |
| 03:55.52 | JeffM2501 | about 1/2 way past, between the center and the other point |
| 03:55.57 | JeffM2501 | it's not a square anymore is it? |
| 03:56.02 | JeffM2501 | but it still has 4 sides |
| 03:56.08 | JeffM2501 | right? |
| 03:56.19 | JeffM2501 | it's kinda pacman thing |
| 03:56.21 | BIYA | yes |
| 03:57.10 | JeffM2501 | put the rubber band around that |
| 03:57.14 | JeffM2501 | does it hit all sides? |
| 03:57.59 | BIYA | no |
| 03:58.35 | spldart | is TheOne owner of bladica.com server? |
| 03:58.37 | JeffM2501 | that polygon is now not convex |
| 03:58.39 | JeffM2501 | it is concave |
| 03:59.08 | BIYA | okay...... |
| 03:59.48 | JeffM2501 | you can't have faces like that |
| 03:59.54 | JeffM2501 | they are invalid |
| 04:00.50 | BIYA | think you can look at my object in an editor? Cause im having a hard time understanding this |
| 04:01.55 | JeffM2501 | just log into the map and see what faces are missing :) |
| 04:02.08 | BIYA | cause there is no cube in my mesh just a sphere and a torus that I flattened |
| 04:02.36 | JeffM2501 | ok so you don't even have a clue |
| 04:02.42 | JeffM2501 | it' NOT a cube thing |
| 04:02.42 | BIYA | nno |
| 04:02.44 | JeffM2501 | it's a face thing |
| 04:02.46 | BIYA | no |
| 04:02.48 | JeffM2501 | I'd learn to model first |
| 04:02.51 | BIYA | what? |
| 04:02.51 | JeffM2501 | don't even botther |
| 04:02.51 | wegstar | ... |
| 04:03.09 | BIYA | lol |
| 04:03.24 | JeffM2501 | you don't even have the basic modeling concepts |
| 04:03.30 | BIYA | Dont really understand my first try at this work well and the mesh came out perfect |
| 04:03.44 | JeffM2501 | the stick with boxes |
| 04:03.48 | JeffM2501 | or epxeriment and think |
| 04:03.52 | JeffM2501 | I can't do this anymnore |
| 04:04.02 | *** join/#bzflag Carnage_ (Carn@dyn216-8-132-169.ADSL.mnsi.net) |
| 04:04.04 | BIYA | then this just got screwed all to He!! |
| 04:04.12 | BIYA | lol |
| 04:05.03 | JeffM2501 | you need to learn your basics |
| 04:05.05 | JeffM2501 | of modeling |
| 04:05.10 | JeffM2501 | don't even botther with bz |
| 04:05.16 | BIYA | I thought I had somthing going but nopw |
| 04:05.33 | BIYA | hold on |
| 04:07.09 | JeffM2501 | start wih a box |
| 04:07.21 | JeffM2501 | see what it does when you change the box around |
| 04:07.39 | JeffM2501 | experiement |
| 04:14.14 | BIYA | I have done that |
| 04:15.03 | BIYA | made a spider out of it once |
| 04:16.12 | BIYA | err have to reinstall screenshot pilot |
| 04:18.11 | BIYA | Jeff if your still there go here http://pastebin.com/263608 |
| 04:18.42 | JeffM2501 | what about it? |
| 04:18.58 | JeffM2501 | your matrefs are jacked |
| 04:19.02 | BIYA | go there |
| 04:19.09 | BIYA | se the errors |
| 04:19.15 | JeffM2501 | yeah fixem |
| 04:19.48 | BIYA | that will take some figuring out fo me |
| 04:20.10 | spldart | Umm wow |
| 04:20.29 | BIYA | Me and meshes dont mix :( i hate it |
| 04:21.44 | JeffM2501 | then if you arn't willing to learn modeling basics then just use boxes |
| 04:22.07 | BIYA | make everything from boxes? |
| 04:22.14 | JeffM2501 | what other choice do you have |
| 04:22.28 | BIYA | mess with stuff |
| 04:22.44 | JeffM2501 | or learn |
| 04:22.57 | BIYA | sam |
| 04:22.59 | BIYA | same* |
| 04:23.32 | JeffM2501 | no it's not |
| 04:23.51 | JeffM2501 | playing with stuff isn't the same as siting down and puting effort into understanding |
| 04:24.48 | BIYA | messing with stuff finding out what they do. |
| 04:26.16 | BIYA | Jeff you know what a torus is right? |
| 04:26.49 | JeffM2501 | yes |
| 04:27.00 | BIYA | is the reason for the concave or whatever is cause I flattened it so it would be a flat ring? |
| 04:27.07 | JeffM2501 | proably |
| 04:27.23 | BIYA | doh thought so |
| 04:28.35 | BIYA | so i fI moved the top accidently past throught the bottom? is that the porblem? |
| 04:28.45 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 04:28.55 | BIYA | :-D |
| 04:29.03 | BIYA | kinda like an intersection |
| 04:29.20 | JeffM2501 | kinda like a concavity |
| 04:29.25 | JeffM2501 | or a degenate |
| 04:29.37 | BIYA | thats the words |
| 04:29.41 | BIYA | word* |
| 04:30.18 | BIYA | like turning a box inside out by making the size -10 -10 -10? |
| 04:30.31 | JeffM2501 | no that's a uniform scale |
| 04:30.37 | JeffM2501 | it would keep it covex |
| 04:30.49 | BIYA | o |
| 04:31.37 | BIYA | I made a different planet model when we were talking and it should be fixed |
| 04:31.51 | spldart | I'm doing the manual adding bad tanks to a local file from your master list. If I update that txt with a new bad tank can I just go into my console and /reload to get the new bad tanks blocked or do I have to restart bzfs? |
| 04:32.06 | JeffM2501 | reload works |
| 04:32.28 | spldart | Cool thanks |
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| 05:10.55 | jpa- | morning |
| 05:11.08 | escristian | just a quick question. when a client sends a message to the other clients is multicasting used or is the message sent seperately to all clients |
| 05:11.18 | escristian | by the server |
| 05:11.32 | jpa- | client does not send directly to other clients |
| 05:11.40 | jpa- | it goes through the server |
| 05:12.01 | jpa- | and no, isps do not usually support multicast, so it is not used |
| 05:12.10 | escristian | ok thanks, just wanted to make sure |
| 05:13.59 | *** join/#bzflag Silver1 (user@68-116-47-254.or.charter.com) |
| 05:16.57 | spldart | Night all ;) |
| 05:17.03 | *** part/#bzflag spldart (~spldart@cpe-67-10-210-195.houston.res.rr.com) |
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| 05:28.55 | bzflagwiz | TimRiker - are you around? |
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| 05:32.55 | *** join/#bzflag wegstar_ (~foo@adsl-67-121-190-35.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) |
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| 05:53.59 | bzflagwiz | ~seen TimRiker |
| 05:54.02 | ibot | timriker is currently on # (1d 18h 2m 10s) #debian-bots (1d 18h 2m 10s) #botpark (1d 18h 2m 10s) #elinux (1d 18h 2m 10s) #classiccmp (1d 18h 2m 10s) #ol (1d 18h 2m 10s) #bzflag (1d 18h 2m 10s). Has said a total of 51 messages. Is idling for 56m 7s |
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| 06:21.11 | *** join/#bzflag Donno (~Donno@203.cust8.sa.dsl.ozemail.com.au) |
| 06:21.18 | Donno | Hi |
| 06:22.33 | Donno | Grr Bzflag won't run on my pc. THe process runs but i don't get anything else. |
| 06:24.13 | Carnage | will it load a dark screan? |
| 06:24.21 | Carnage | screen* |
| 06:24.23 | Donno | nope |
| 06:26.44 | Donno | Wierd I just installed it on my brothers computer and it came up first time. I have a Geforce 2 Ti, he has a ATI Radeon something, which is better thou. Would that make a diff? |
| 06:27.44 | JeffM2501 | would depend on drivers mostly |
| 06:27.51 | Donno | hmm |
| 06:27.55 | JeffM2501 | what OS? |
| 06:28.43 | Donno | Windows Xp on mine, win 98 on my brotehrs |
| 06:28.56 | JeffM2501 | you have drivers that come with ZP? |
| 06:29.02 | JeffM2501 | or the ones from the nvidia site? |
| 06:29.54 | Donno | I loaded my NVIDIA drives which came on the MSI cd for my card. |
| 06:29.58 | JeffM2501 | eww |
| 06:30.03 | JeffM2501 | those will be older then hell |
| 06:30.08 | JeffM2501 | get the ones from nvidia |
| 06:30.43 | Donno | Okay, I think i may get them form the MSI site, coz The nvidia ones usally render the Video in and out useless. |
| 06:31.11 | JeffM2501 | no |
| 06:31.19 | JeffM2501 | don't get the MSI ones |
| 06:31.23 | Donno | Why not? |
| 06:31.24 | JeffM2501 | they will ALLWAYS be old |
| 06:31.36 | Donno | Well ill at least try them |
| 06:31.40 | JeffM2501 | the nvidia ones shuld support tvin and out |
| 06:31.43 | JeffM2501 | just fine |
| 06:31.53 | JeffM2501 | all MSI does is repackage the nvidia drivers |
| 06:31.59 | Donno | Well they don't when i install them. |
| 06:32.18 | JeffM2501 | well do what you wish |
| 06:32.23 | Donno | Else ill just have to play BZflag on my brothers computer. |
| 06:32.25 | JeffM2501 | but older drivers == suckyer drivers |
| 06:32.35 | JeffM2501 | the ones on the CDs are allways years old |
| 06:34.59 | bzflagwiz | Is this on-board video, or a separate card? |
| 06:35.36 | Donno | seprate card |
| 06:35.44 | JeffM2501 | it would not be a TI if it was onboard |
| 06:35.51 | JeffM2501 | it's be an nforce |
| 06:36.04 | JeffM2501 | well if it's a GF2 it's not a TI |
| 06:36.07 | JeffM2501 | it's a GTS |
| 06:36.15 | JeffM2501 | it would be a GF3 or 4 to be a TI |
| 06:36.30 | JeffM2501 | how long ago did you try the nivida drivers? |
| 06:37.31 | Donno | It is one of these G2TiVX Pro-T G2Ti Pro-T G2TiVX Pro-VT G2Ti Pro-VT |
| 06:37.47 | Donno | About 6 months ago I tried the drivers |
| 06:38.30 | Donno | Found it its a G2Ti Pro-VT |
| 06:38.32 | JeffM2501 | oh wow that is a logn while go |
| 06:38.47 | JeffM2501 | they update drivers every few weeks or so |
| 06:39.10 | Donno | k |
| 06:39.17 | JeffM2501 | that'd be the MSI description then, it's gonna have a GF2GTS are its' core |
| 06:39.25 | scanline | video *in* and out? |
| 06:39.35 | scanline | I didn't think any of the nvidia chips did video input on their own |
| 06:39.40 | Donno | yeh |
| 06:39.50 | JeffM2501 | some can I think |
| 06:39.54 | JeffM2501 | but it's rare |
| 06:40.01 | scanline | it could be this board uses some crazy-special chip to do both video in and out.. and for that you would need some kind of extra driver maybe |
| 06:40.13 | Donno | I downloading NVIDIA VGA Driver 31.00 ME/Xp form the MSI site. Meanwhile i have a quick bzflag game on my brothers pc |
| 06:40.16 | scanline | that's kind of a sucky deal though if you can't use nvidia's drivers |
| 06:40.52 | JeffM2501 | rather |
| 06:40.54 | Donno | It can use Nvidia drivers but it just means Windows Cannot find the Tv in/ Capture Card/ use thw WDM |
| 06:41.06 | JeffM2501 | nvidia is up to version 71.84 |
| 06:41.28 | Donno | oh well. |
| 06:41.38 | JeffM2501 | it have like a non nivida tv card on it? |
| 06:41.55 | Donno | yeh, the actuall board is MSI i think. |
| 06:42.00 | JeffM2501 | well sure |
| 06:42.05 | JeffM2501 | nvidia dosn't make comerical cards |
| 06:42.09 | Donno | I don't really use my pc much anyway fr games. |
| 06:42.10 | JeffM2501 | just the chips |
| 06:42.18 | Donno | Yeh. |
| 06:42.19 | JeffM2501 | you use it to watch tv? |
| 06:42.32 | Donno | yeh, |
| 06:42.43 | JeffM2501 | aren't TV's cheaper? |
| 06:42.49 | Donno | yeh |
| 06:43.00 | Donno | only think my antenna in my room is crapp and i get very load quality. But my room is too small for both a TV and PC. |
| 06:43.21 | JeffM2501 | if I had to do caputre I'd use a usb device |
| 06:43.25 | JeffM2501 | as to not gimp my video |
| 06:43.45 | Donno | Would a firewire card be better thou? |
| 06:43.50 | scanline | a decent USB capture card is going to be a lot more expensive and more hassle than a cheap hauppauge card I'd think |
| 06:44.11 | JeffM2501 | I've seen a MSI usb thing for like 50$ |
| 06:44.17 | JeffM2501 | wored just fine |
| 06:44.20 | JeffM2501 | in windows |
| 06:44.26 | JeffM2501 | card would be better for nix |
| 06:44.30 | scanline | you can get a bttv card plenty cheaper than that, and they work really well on anything |
| 06:44.54 | JeffM2501 | yeah but I couldn't then stick it in the mini :) |
| 06:45.24 | JeffM2501 | msi has the 71.22 drivers |
| 06:45.44 | JeffM2501 | why are you using 31.00 ? |
| 06:46.08 | Donno | i think 31.00 are the latest ones which work for my card. |
| 06:46.13 | JeffM2501 | no |
| 06:46.21 | JeffM2501 | nvidia drivers work for all cards |
| 06:46.34 | JeffM2501 | I think that message is just for the minimum cards |
| 06:46.41 | Donno | Its not a try nvidia card/ drivers thou |
| 06:46.43 | JeffM2501 | the older drivers don't support the newer chipsets |
| 06:46.51 | JeffM2501 | yes it is |
| 06:46.58 | JeffM2501 | msi dosn't make there own drivers |
| 06:47.04 | JeffM2501 | they use the nvidia core and mod them |
| 06:47.58 | JeffM2501 | what is the model of the card? |
| 06:48.09 | Donno | G2Ti Pro-VT |
| 06:50.12 | SportChick | ~seen TimRiker |
| 06:50.15 | ibot | timriker is currently on # (1d 18h 58m 23s) #debian-bots (1d 18h 58m 23s) #botpark (1d 18h 58m 23s) #elinux (1d 18h 58m 23s) #classiccmp (1d 18h 58m 23s) #ol (1d 18h 58m 23s) #bzflag (1d 18h 58m 23s). Has said a total of 53 messages. Is idling for 29m 24s |
| 06:50.45 | bzflagwiz | Hiya Sporty |
| 06:50.57 | jpa- | hi sport |
| 06:51.06 | SportChick | hi bzflagwiz and jpa |
| 06:54.29 | purple_cow | stupid computers |
| 06:56.59 | *** join/#bzflag bzflagwiz_ (~wiz@12-240-60-115.client.mchsi.com) |
| 07:04.07 | wegstar | nite all |
| 07:17.20 | *** join/#bzflag Donno (~Donno@203.cust8.sa.dsl.ozemail.com.au) |
| 07:17.32 | Donno | Thanks the Drive Update fixed it |
| 07:26.06 | Donno | Too bad i don't speak French thou |
| 07:26.33 | Donno | Wait there is a English option. The Install program is only in French only. |
| 07:29.00 | *** join/#bzflag crko (~jan@cmb27-47.dial-up.arnes.si) |
| 07:30.20 | *** join/#bzflag ToughShooter (~ts@pD9EA6CA9.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 07:30.36 | Donno | Oh well Cool tool thou, XBMS Server and client. Can't wait to test it with a xbox. |
| 07:30.48 | Donno | sorry wrong channel |
| 07:43.12 | *** join/#bzflag Silver1 (SilverFox@68-116-47-254.or.charter.com) |
| 07:48.27 | *** join/#bzflag blast007_ (~blast@24-196-92-143.jvl.wi.charter.com) |
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| 08:58.05 | *** join/#bzflag newbie_dont (~janko@dlr51.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) |
| 09:00.47 | *** part/#bzflag brainZzZ (kissing@c-24-18-82-42.client.comcast.net) |
| 09:17.00 | *** join/#bzflag _Manu_ (~jujibo@98.Red-80-36-59.pooles.rima-tde.net) |
| 09:26.08 | *** join/#bzflag bz4306 (~44e3ce29@webchat.bzflag.bz) |
| 10:22.16 | *** join/#bzflag ToughShooter (~ts@pD9EA6CA9.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 10:52.33 | *** join/#bzflag ToughShooter (~ts@pD9EA7A1F.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 10:58.06 | *** join/#bzflag Birdie (~birdie@d54C34D0B.access.telenet.be) |
| 11:13.01 | [dmp] | morning Birdie :) |
| 11:31.32 | *** join/#bzflag nixdepp (~Miranda@p508563F5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 11:42.50 | *** part/#bzflag nixdepp (~Miranda@p508563F5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 12:00.27 | Birdie | good morning [dmp] |
| 12:00.36 | Birdie | allready up?:) |
| 12:00.46 | [dmp] | :) |
| 12:01.27 | [dmp] | i had to go to uni today, otherwise might have waited an hour before getting up :) |
| 12:01.52 | Birdie | till 3pm?lol |
| 12:02.17 | Birdie | bah my mom says i should take night for night and day for day, and not day for night like i'm doing lately:) |
| 12:02.38 | [dmp] | i take night as night. I just prefer nights :) |
| 12:03.03 | Birdie | its like i concentrate better in nights |
| 12:04.07 | [dmp] | yeah, its peacefull. Noone visits or phones you. Even gf stop bugging :) |
| 12:04.25 | Birdie | i just dont take up the phone anymore=) |
| 12:04.41 | Birdie | if its urgent, they will speak something in, and if i really want to, i call back:) |
| 12:07.44 | Birdie | btw i saw you joined the guleague:) |
| 12:08.18 | [dmp] | have been there for a few weeks, just got around to join a team yesterday :) |
| 12:29.38 | *** join/#bzflag Grumbler (~Grumbler@grumbler.bronze.supporter.pdpc) |
| 12:30.56 | *** join/#bzflag CIA-5 (~CIA@flapjack.navi.cx) |
| 12:45.17 | *** join/#bzflag newbie_dont (~janko@dlr51.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) |
| 12:46.45 | *** join/#bzflag scanline (~micah@128.138.74.40) |
| 12:47.47 | *** join/#bzflag purple_cow (~jupiter@128.138.74.40) |
| 12:47.47 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o purple_cow] by ChanServ |
| 13:01.47 | *** join/#bzflag _Manu_ (~jujibo@98.Red-80-36-59.pooles.rima-tde.net) |
| 13:08.54 | *** join/#bzflag Thumper_ (~bernt@CPE000102d0fe24-CM0012256ecbde.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) |
| 13:20.00 | jpa- | hi Thumper_ |
| 13:35.44 | ruskie | there's a major lag problem on viper.pimpi.org |
| 13:39.06 | ruskie | _Manu_, you around? |
| 13:40.15 | _Manu_ | fixed |
| 13:40.29 | ruskie | k |
| 13:51.04 | *** join/#bzflag ToughShooter (~ts@pD9EA7A1F.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 13:53.09 | *** join/#bzflag |zongo| (~zongo@lsn-boi-catv-c122-p226.vtx.ch) |
| 14:03.05 | *** join/#bzflag blast007 (~blast007@24-196-92-143.jvl.wi.charter.com) |
| 14:03.27 | Thumper_ | jpa-: hi jpa |
| 14:15.32 | *** join/#bzflag DarthValou (~none@lsn-boi-catv-c122-p226.vtx.ch) |
| 14:21.09 | *** join/#bzflag Tupone (~neo@host-84-222-130-62.cust-adsl.tiscali.it) |
| 14:25.44 | *** part/#bzflag DarthValou (~none@lsn-boi-catv-c122-p226.vtx.ch) |
| 14:32.15 | *** join/#bzflag ep (mdr@ip68-97-122-98.ok.ok.cox.net) |
| 15:10.00 | *** join/#bzflag spldart (~james@adsl-70-240-176-45.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net) |
| 15:10.06 | spldart | Morning |
| 15:10.44 | prop | afternoon :) |
| 15:11.30 | spldart | heh |
| 15:13.00 | jpa- | evening |
| 15:14.52 | spldart | Very well.... Guten tag! ;) |
| 15:15.22 | jpa- | ew |
| 15:15.29 | jpa- | sounds like mistyped swedish |
| 15:16.01 | *** join/#bzflag DeathBarrel (~Eric@adsl-70-240-114-212.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net) |
| 15:16.15 | spldart | German |
| 15:16.20 | spldart | I'm 1/4 german ;) |
| 15:16.25 | spldart | Don't speak it though |
| 15:17.10 | spldart | roughly 1/2 English, 1/4 Scottich, 1/4 German |
| 15:19.24 | *** join/#bzflag Death-Barrel (~DeathBarr@adsl-70-240-114-212.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net) |
| 15:19.39 | *** part/#bzflag DeathBarrel (~Eric@adsl-70-240-114-212.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net) |
| 15:20.31 | *** join/#bzflag SportChick (~SportChic@ca-redbch-cuda1-c5b-b-192.stmnca.adelphia.net) |
| 15:20.36 | jpa- | hi sc |
| 15:32.53 | *** join/#bzflag CBG (~CannonBal@cpc3-stme1-5-0-cust91.cdif.cable.ntl.com) |
| 15:33.10 | CBG | hi :) |
| 15:33.17 | jpa- | ew |
| 15:33.33 | CBG | sup jpa? |
| 15:33.46 | CBG | do you ever play? or do you just pretend? |
| 15:33.48 | CBG | ;) |
| 15:35.11 | *** join/#bzflag techman (~james@adsl-70-240-176-45.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net) |
| 15:37.59 | Birdie | mute command = also not possible to talk in admin talk? |
| 15:46.11 | *** join/#bzflag blast007 (~blast007@198.150.76.4) |
| 15:54.59 | *** join/#bzflag Tupone (~neo@host-84-222-130-62.cust-adsl.tiscali.it) |
| 15:58.31 | techman | Dude! My password for the Nick is no longer valid :eek: |
| 15:58.36 | techman | oh |
| 15:59.11 | spldart | ok |
| 15:59.13 | spldart | finally |
| 15:59.25 | spldart | stupid work computer and stupid work connection :grrr: |
| 16:01.09 | *** join/#bzflag DTRemenak (~DTRemenak@131.215.170.84) |
| 16:06.37 | *** join/#bzflag Archangel_13 (~kevin@hsdbrg142-165-232-119.sasknet.sk.ca) |
| 16:07.33 | *** join/#bzflag darth_mall (~evan@128.138.74.40) |
| 16:22.40 | Pimpi | Birdie: depends on server version |
| 16:24.28 | *** join/#bzflag Mr_Molez (~admin@ACD4B9BC.ipt.aol.com) |
| 16:25.19 | Pimpi | in 2.0.2 the muted player can only send private messenges to @ ppl. in cvs messenges to admin channel are allowd again |
| 16:49.05 | brlcad | ~weather kbwi |
| 16:52.52 | *** join/#bzflag SportyGal (sportygali@67-21-174-30.stmnca.adelphia.net) |
| 16:52.55 | *** join/#bzflag Tupone (~neo@host-84-222-130-62.cust-adsl.tiscali.it) |
| 17:01.31 | *** join/#bzflag TimRiker (~timr@TimRiker.active.supporter.pdpc) |
| 17:01.31 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 17:08.09 | *** join/#bzflag CBG (~CannonBal@cpc3-stme1-5-0-cust91.cdif.cable.ntl.com) |
| 17:12.50 | *** join/#bzflag Death_Barrel (~DeathBarr@adsl-70-240-101-39.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net) |
| 17:13.08 | menotume | Ho ! |
| 17:13.34 | CBG | hi |
| 17:14.08 | CBG | Is the bzcontest.com working for everyone else? |
| 17:14.22 | CBG | I go to the 'today's task' page and get yesterdays... |
| 17:14.27 | menotume | it did last nite |
| 17:14.38 | CBG | can you please try now? |
| 17:14.40 | menotume | yes, new day starts at 19:00 GMT |
| 17:14.43 | CBG | www.bzcontest.com |
| 17:14.54 | CBG | I got an email saying that the new (3rd) task is up |
| 17:15.10 | menotume | ahhh, yes it is (hit refresh) :) |
| 17:15.14 | CBG | but I look at the 'todays task' but yesterdays(2nd) is still there |
| 17:15.17 | CBG | I have hit refresh |
| 17:15.23 | CBG | I have also eptied my cache... |
| 17:15.33 | CBG | it simply wont work. |
| 17:15.58 | CBG | I had this problem before because the url i used was "httP://bzcontest.com" |
| 17:15.59 | menotume | hmm, I get third task here |
| 17:16.21 | CBG | I had to use "http://www.bzcontest.com" |
| 17:16.32 | CBG | and I am using that url now... the one WITH www... |
| 17:16.43 | menotume | that sounds like a chacing problem |
| 17:16.49 | CBG | chacing? |
| 17:16.54 | menotume | chache |
| 17:16.58 | CBG | yeah |
| 17:17.01 | brlcad | me goes directly to prizes for some reason |
| 17:17.05 | CBG | but I have emtied my cache |
| 17:17.10 | brlcad | me can't type today |
| 17:17.11 | CBG | and refreshed etc |
| 17:17.25 | menotume | he's using 'post' vars for 'links' |
| 17:17.34 | CBG | and? whats that mean? |
| 17:18.12 | menotume | it means that you'll go to whatever page that you browser has cached the vars for :) |
| 17:18.19 | menotume | i think |
| 17:18.34 | CBG | Hey. I even used a different browser... I ahve never been to bzcontest.com in FireFox before... so I use that |
| 17:18.39 | CBG | but it still shows the old task |
| 17:18.52 | menotume | hmmm |
| 17:19.00 | ToughShooter | ~seen learner |
| 17:19.16 | ibot | learner is currently on #opencombat #brlcad #bzflag |
| 17:19.16 | brlcad | he listens |
| 17:19.31 | ToughShooter | I redone my patch for german part of swear list |
| 17:19.48 | orange | cbg, sounds like your ISP is running a caching server for you |
| 17:19.50 | CBG | whats a ~ for? im new to irc |
| 17:19.51 | orange | isn't that nice of them |
| 17:19.59 | CBG | orange, what the heck? |
| 17:20.01 | brlcad | ToughShooter: how did you send it to him before? |
| 17:20.06 | CBG | nwhat do I do about that? |
| 17:20.14 | orange | ask, then complain |
| 17:20.17 | brlcad | CBG, it gets ibot's attention |
| 17:20.22 | CBG | my internest is fine on every other website... |
| 17:20.34 | CBG | brlcad: thanks |
| 17:20.34 | ToughShooter | brlcad: I uploaded a patch at sourceforge, now I've got improved it somewhat |
| 17:20.46 | brlcad | ToughShooter: okie dokie |
| 17:20.52 | orange | CBG: you don't know if it is or not... some sites may be updated and you just don't know it... some will work, some will not |
| 17:21.00 | orange | my ISP finally dumped theirs altogether, because it sucked so bad |
| 17:21.02 | ToughShooter | brlcad: not sure whether he noticed it before |
| 17:21.19 | brlcad | ~CBG is Cannon Ball Gun |
| 17:21.20 | ibot | brlcad: okay |
| 17:21.20 | menotume | CBG: i just sent a msg off to saturos about the problem |
| 17:21.23 | CBG | orange, im a web designer... I know when I update my site. and it works fine |
| 17:21.35 | CBG | menutome, thanks |
| 17:21.46 | brlcad | ~CBG |
| 17:21.47 | ibot | i heard cbg is Cannon Ball Gun |
| 17:21.48 | CBG | nbrlcad: its CannonBall GUY |
| 17:21.56 | orange | CBG: so am I... different sites, with different servers, and different headers, they all react in different ways |
| 17:22.06 | brlcad | ~no, CBG is Cannon Ball Guy |
| 17:22.26 | orange | but if some people are going to a site and seeing one thing, and you're going there with a fresh browser and seeing something different, the most likely solution is a caching server between you that is misbehaving |
| 17:22.40 | CBG | and I do WHAT about it? |
| 17:22.45 | orange | talk to your ISP |
| 17:22.55 | CBG | awww sheesh. |
| 17:22.55 | orange | they often have a way to opt you out of it |
| 17:23.03 | CBG | opt out of What? |
| 17:23.07 | orange | mine did, and they opted me out, and then later they dropped it altogether |
| 17:23.31 | *** join/#bzflag kierra (~45f06abf@rw08.de) |
| 17:23.38 | CBG | hi kierra :) |
| 17:23.47 | menotume | CBG, in the meantime, try: http://www.bzcontest.saturos.de/ |
| 17:23.57 | orange | opt out of having them intercept all your port 80 connections and replace them with cached versions |
| 17:24.05 | kierra | hey :) |
| 17:24.15 | orange | my isp STILL intercepts all DNS traffic, regardless of the server you specify |
| 17:24.18 | orange | it sucks, big time |
| 17:24.21 | orange | and cannot opt out of it |
| 17:24.27 | CBG | meno thats where Ive been going the whole time... |
| 17:24.28 | brlcad | CBG, it's not a big deal to ask them -- worse they can say is no, unless running a webserver is against the rules or something |
| 17:24.47 | orange | brlcad: other way around... I'm talking about outbound port 80 requests |
| 17:25.18 | CBG | So I need to email NTL Support and say " orange: opt out of having them intercept all your port 80 connections and replace them with cached versions |
| 17:25.25 | menotume | I wonder how long before the cache expires ? |
| 17:25.40 | CBG | So I need to email NTL Support and say "opt me out of having you intercept all my port 80 connections and replace them with cached versions" ? |
| 17:26.02 | orange | well, you should ask first, but basically, yes |
| 17:26.20 | CBG | ok... :) thanks |
| 17:27.40 | *** join/#bzflag a_monkey (~thechimp@user-0can32u.cable.mindspring.com) |
| 17:27.51 | CBG | meno, i have tried that |
| 17:27.55 | CBG | shows task 2 |
| 17:28.28 | brlcad | CBG, you can change the nameservers on bzcontest.com and should avoid the problem |
| 17:28.30 | a_monkey | i noticed that there aren't any mac os x builds of queen of maybe. |
| 17:28.35 | a_monkey | you want me to submit mine? |
| 17:28.40 | brlcad | no |
| 17:28.57 | CBG | yes |
| 17:28.57 | brlcad | unless you made a disk mounting package-maker package |
| 17:29.08 | a_monkey | oh |
| 17:29.09 | a_monkey | i can do that |
| 17:29.14 | *** join/#bzflag JeffM2501 (~JeffM@users.gibbscam.com) |
| 17:29.14 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o JeffM2501] by ChanServ |
| 17:29.15 | CBG | brlcad, how do i change their nameservers? |
| 17:30.01 | brlcad | if you are Christa, then you can update your whois entry |
| 17:30.20 | CBG | Christa ?? |
| 17:30.29 | orange | brlcad: he's not serving the site, he's viewing it |
| 17:30.42 | ToughShooter | ~bzfquery bzflag.secretplace.us:5255 |
| 17:30.50 | brlcad | oh, then never mind |
| 17:31.07 | CBG | YAY |
| 17:31.10 | CBG | THANKS Meno!! |
| 17:31.11 | menotume | :) |
| 17:31.13 | menotume | np |
| 17:31.29 | CBG | and, can you tell me what it says on the /today.html page too please? |
| 17:31.32 | ToughShooter | ping SportyGal |
| 17:31.46 | SportyGal | ts: hi |
| 17:32.01 | ToughShooter | SportyGal: It seems like secretplace is down |
| 17:32.08 | CBG | thanks loads meno |
| 17:32.09 | SportyGal | really? |
| 17:32.11 | CBG | :D |
| 17:32.11 | SportyGal | one sec |
| 17:32.37 | CBG | i know. thanks |
| 17:32.45 | CBG | nif only i knew what the pic meant. lol |
| 17:32.50 | CBG | is he taking the money? |
| 17:32.57 | SportyGal | try again |
| 17:33.35 | TimRiker | netstat -antp | grep 5255 shows nothing. |
| 17:33.41 | ToughShooter | "Error connecting to server." |
| 17:33.54 | SportyGal | tough, hold on - checking on it. |
| 17:34.18 | CBG | whoever told me to contant my ISP, im filling out a form on their site, it asks for my account number |
| 17:34.24 | CBG | but im not the account holder |
| 17:34.27 | CBG | my dad is... |
| 17:34.43 | TimRiker | SportChick: I see 2 bzfs servers up but not one on 5255 |
| 17:35.40 | SportyGal | ToughShooter: nid is checking on it |
| 17:35.45 | CBG | orange..... |
| 17:36.08 | menotume | I don't think that orange will know your account number :P |
| 17:36.12 | CBG | lol. |
| 17:36.14 | ToughShooter | Just don't tell me that I would be awfully confused |
| 17:36.24 | CBG | do i need to get my dad to speak to them? |
| 17:36.30 | ToughShooter | At least not this time ;-) |
| 17:36.31 | menotume | yes |
| 17:36.35 | CBG | awwww. |
| 17:36.43 | CBG | hes always grouchy |
| 17:36.52 | CBG | and hes in a particularly bad modd today |
| 17:37.02 | CBG | plus he hates having to contact "Suppot". |
| 17:37.29 | CBG | ill try filling out the form without the account number, and just ask if its available to opt out... |
| 17:40.54 | CBG | i had to use a different contact form, but I sent them a msg asking if you can opt out of it... |
| 17:40.59 | CBG | whatever 'it' is. :D lol |
| 17:41.02 | CBG | thanks guys |
| 17:42.07 | CBG | to get someones attention on IRC do i "Cping" them? |
| 17:42.25 | menotume | usually, just mention their name |
| 17:42.38 | CBG | bso what does 'Cping' do? |
| 17:46.09 | CBG | whats "Replied (private) CTCP PING from brlcad |
| 17:46.18 | CBG | whats "Replied (private) CTCP PING from brlcad" mean? |
| 17:46.23 | brlcad | ahh, good ol ircle |
| 17:46.48 | brlcad | it means just that, you replied in private to a ctcp ping request from me |
| 17:46.59 | brlcad | i pinged you |
| 17:47.01 | brlcad | you replied |
| 17:47.04 | *** join/#bzflag Silver2 (SilverFox@68-116-47-254.or.charter.com) |
| 17:47.11 | brlcad | nothing out of the ordinary |
| 17:47.56 | Chestal | is there a way to disable the rejoin blocker? |
| 17:48.16 | jpa- | <PROTECTED> |
| 17:48.43 | Tupone | brlcad, hehe |
| 17:49.00 | Chestal | ah, I thought that was for respawning, but that's probably explodeTime then |
| 17:49.51 | Chestal | a good example group file would be nice to have with all the recent changes |
| 17:50.02 | Chestal | the one in misc/ is a bit too simplistic |
| 17:50.58 | Nidhoggr | restarted server. |
| 17:51.01 | Chestal | resp. too old, it doesn't use any of the newer features (those that I don't know aobut :-) |
| 17:51.04 | Nidhoggr | dunno why it crashed. |
| 17:51.08 | Nidhoggr | no clues in log |
| 17:51.42 | Aribeth | hi all |
| 17:51.44 | TimRiker | ~bzfquery bzflag.secretplace.us:5255 |
| 17:52.27 | Nidhoggr | back to craziness. |
| 17:52.32 | Nidhoggr | *wave* |
| 17:52.38 | spldart | does that bzfquery work for all the servers? |
| 17:53.04 | orange | only the ones that are running |
| 17:53.10 | TimRiker | Nidhoggr: ah. wb. I have a script that loops running the server and keeps 10 logs. interested? |
| 17:53.13 | Aribeth | Nidhoggr, Tegan had problems connecting to secretplace last night |
| 17:53.19 | spldart | So it would work on mine since it's running and public? |
| 17:53.49 | orange | spldart: I'm being a pain... it works on any server |
| 17:53.50 | orange | public or not |
| 17:53.57 | orange | ~bzfquery proxs.bzflag.org:7001 |
| 17:54.03 | spldart | ic |
| 17:54.12 | spldart | ~bzfquery 67.10.210.195:5154 |
| 17:54.19 | spldart | hehe |
| 17:54.25 | spldart | One of my daughters is playing |
| 17:54.31 | orange | hehe |
| 17:55.36 | SportyGal | it should be up again |
| 17:55.48 | Aribeth | hi SportyGal |
| 17:55.56 | SportyGal | hi ari |
| 17:56.01 | SportyGal | how goes it? |
| 17:56.09 | Aribeth | just woke up |
| 17:57.42 | *** part/#bzflag CBG (~CannonBal@cpc3-stme1-5-0-cust91.cdif.cable.ntl.com) |
| 17:58.58 | *** join/#bzflag TheRedBaron (~45f06abf@rw08.de) |
| 17:59.20 | ToughShooter | SportyGal: it is _gmActivationTime, not -gmActivationTime |
| 17:59.36 | SportyGal | I typed it wrong? grrrr |
| 18:00.11 | SportyGal | there |
| 18:00.15 | ToughShooter | According to /diff and my eyes you did a typo |
| 18:00.36 | SportyGal | ToughShooter: I just fixed it (again, but properly this time) |
| 18:00.59 | ToughShooter | SportyGal: It is back to .3 again :) |
| 18:01.14 | SportyGal | yup |
| 18:01.18 | SportyGal | that's where I set it |
| 18:04.50 | TheRedBaron | sportygal = any relation to sport chick? |
| 18:05.19 | Birdie | i thought they were the same? |
| 18:06.08 | TheRedBaron | me too, but i didn't want to assume anything |
| 18:06.15 | TheRedBaron | diagram the word "assume" |
| 18:08.16 | SportyGal | sportygal=sportchick |
| 18:09.14 | TheRedBaron | ok. i figured it was to much of a coincedence for them to NOT be the same person. |
| 18:09.45 | Birdie | sportygal = pc at work and sportchick = pc at home?:) |
| 18:10.14 | SportyGal | Birdie: correct! |
| 18:18.56 | *** join/#bzflag wegstar (~foo@adsl-67-121-190-35.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) |
| 18:19.19 | wegstar | morning... |
| 18:21.52 | *** join/#bzflag BIYA (~0481527e@webchat.bzflag.bz) |
| 18:22.52 | *** join/#bzflag |zongo| (~zongo@lsn-boi-catv-c122-p226.vtx.ch) |
| 18:24.44 | *** join/#bzflag cosmos_ (~cosmos@valentino.hepcat.org) |
| 18:24.52 | wegstar | hmm.. more "heil hitler" err.. people on hepcat... |
| 18:24.56 | wegstar | weren't they banned |
| 18:24.59 | brlcad | howdy again cosmos_ |
| 18:24.59 | cosmos_ | ? |
| 18:25.07 | wegstar | ? |
| 18:25.11 | brlcad | ? |
| 18:25.12 | cosmos_ | it seems we cant ban fast enough |
| 18:25.17 | wegstar | they are just getting kicked... |
| 18:25.21 | spldart | :( |
| 18:25.22 | wegstar | oh well |
| 18:25.42 | cosmos_ | let me go grep the logs what was the username |
| 18:26.03 | wegstar | HITLER IS GOD.. or something |
| 18:26.12 | wegstar | and HEIL HITLER |
| 18:26.13 | cosmos_ | llovely |
| 18:26.18 | wegstar | :( |
| 18:26.19 | spldart | geez |
| 18:26.35 | BIYA | huh? |
| 18:27.13 | cosmos_ | 70.48.123.89 |
| 18:28.15 | wegstar | hmm... from canada |
| 18:28.48 | *** join/#bzflag Hofnarr (~eas@port-212-202-56-229.dynamic.qsc.de) |
| 18:28.58 | Hofnarr | moin moin everybody |
| 18:29.16 | cosmos_ | other than that the babels map has been successfull so far |
| 18:29.48 | Birdie | except the lag |
| 18:30.02 | BIYA | My server is doing great as always :) |
| 18:30.06 | brlcad | trepan: heh |
| 18:30.11 | cosmos_ | yeah |
| 18:30.26 | Hofnarr | is there any special faq or troubleshooting-doc for the new version 2? |
| 18:30.32 | cosmos_ | biya i think i caught the clap arfter visiting your server |
| 18:30.43 | BIYA | clap? |
| 18:30.59 | spldart | lmao!! |
| 18:31.22 | BIYA | am I missing somthng? |
| 18:32.03 | cosmos_ | BIYA are you just as clueeless on STD's as you are 3D modeling? ;) |
| 18:32.11 | wegstar | heh |
| 18:32.12 | cosmos_ | perhaps we can get JeffM to explain |
| 18:32.14 | spldart | ooOOoo |
| 18:32.21 | spldart | snap |
| 18:32.22 | BIYA | no jeff has done enough |
| 18:32.28 | spldart | J/K |
| 18:32.57 | brlcad | serious tank disasters |
| 18:33.11 | BIYA | and by the way im getting better at 3D modelling :-P |
| 18:33.59 | TheRedBaron | ~whaleslap the sick minded tankers |
| 18:34.02 | ibot | ACTION slaps the sick minded tankers upside and over the head with one freakishly huge killer whale named hugh |
| 18:34.06 | TheRedBaron | :P |
| 18:36.49 | BIYA | http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?t=3319 proof that I am getting alittle better |
| 18:38.15 | *** join/#bzflag mmu_man (revol@AToulouse-106-1-5-117.w80-15.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 18:40.26 | JeffM2501 | good job |
| 18:40.40 | JeffM2501 | now texture it :) |
| 18:42.11 | *** join/#bzflag Fuddl (~fuddl@2001:6f8:9cf:0:20f:eaff:fe4d:d7b7) |
| 18:43.23 | BIYA | I was gonna do that after I fixed this group problem http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?t=3325 |
| 18:44.16 | ToughShooter | ping SportyGal |
| 18:44.36 | SportyGal | ToughShooter: pong |
| 18:44.50 | ToughShooter | Sorry for taking your time |
| 18:44.59 | SportyGal | ToughShooter: no problem. what's wrong? |
| 18:45.02 | ToughShooter | There was a problem with Kitty |
| 18:45.04 | JeffM2501 | BIYA, you have no group object |
| 18:45.14 | BIYA | doh!!! |
| 18:45.30 | SportyGal | high karate kitty? what problem? |
| 18:45.37 | ToughShooter | She was logged in but had no +,- or @ but she was able to talk, no idea whether it was really her |
| 18:46.04 | SportyGal | what was exact name? |
| 18:46.13 | ToughShooter | It looks like she's still registered at forums, Gabow saw it, too |
| 18:46.24 | ToughShooter | It was "High Karate Kitty" |
| 18:46.30 | Birdie | it somethimes happens to me to i dont have my + - or @ although i have my admin privs |
| 18:48.06 | SportyGal | ToughShooter: it's not her |
| 18:48.07 | BIYA | Jeff it still gave me the same thing... |
| 18:48.28 | ToughShooter | SportyGal: Then who was it? |
| 18:48.41 | SportyGal | ToughShooter: next time, look for the hostban info - OUR kitty is on ph.ph.cox.net. The fake one is on georgia.montebellopartners.com |
| 18:49.05 | BIYA | wait..... |
| 18:49.06 | SportyGal | if it's the fake one, warn her she is using an admin's name and isn't allowed to. If she doesnt' change, kick her, then ban her |
| 18:49.15 | SportyGal | ok? |
| 18:49.21 | ToughShooter | ok |
| 18:49.23 | SportyGal | ty |
| 18:49.34 | SportyGal | you may want to send an email to the list, too, so peopole know to look out for that |
| 18:49.41 | ToughShooter | But I wonder how this fake was achieved, it shouldn't be possible |
| 18:49.53 | SportyGal | ts: mamasay needs to be kicked |
| 18:50.03 | wegstar | yay! gmail invites... |
| 18:50.16 | SportyGal | ToughShooter: the way it works is that IF she tries to register with pass, it will fail. But since she's not using a pass, it doesn't work |
| 18:50.29 | ToughShooter | SportyGal: We decided to kick her next swearing |
| 18:51.01 | SportyGal | k |
| 18:55.29 | cosmos_ | thats too nice |
| 18:55.36 | cosmos_ | at hepcat we ban first ask questions later |
| 18:56.50 | ToughShooter | SportyGal: Gabow tried to log in without password, but that gave a - |
| 18:56.55 | cosmos_ | wow |
| 18:57.05 | cosmos_ | mr_bill ate 6 of these for breakfast |
| 18:57.10 | cosmos_ | 70.48.123.[3~[3~[3~ |
| 18:57.19 | cosmos_ | http://money.cnn.com/2005/03/28/news/midcaps/burgerking_breakfast/index.htm?cnn=yes |
| 18:58.35 | spldart | Looks yummy |
| 18:58.48 | cosmos_ | yeah but 6 in one sitting egads |
| 18:59.06 | spldart | Artery clogging goodness :-; |
| 18:59.11 | cosmos_ | http://www.hepcat.org/mr_bill/ |
| 18:59.43 | spldart | hehe |
| 18:59.57 | SportyGal | ToughShooter: maybe she had an extra space in her name or something |
| 19:00.15 | spldart | He's a big guy.... A tanker? |
| 19:00.18 | ToughShooter | spaces at the end of a name are not allowed |
| 19:00.21 | wegstar | lol |
| 19:00.37 | cosmos_ | that dude once ate 5 wendys triples for lunch |
| 19:00.41 | cosmos_ | nah he runs www.sunhelp.org |
| 19:01.32 | spldart | ~me is getting hungry waiting for the Whataburger to show up :-p |
| 19:01.35 | ibot | moi? |
| 19:01.42 | spldart | hehe |
| 19:01.43 | spldart | oopsy |
| 19:02.40 | cosmos_ | i havnt had whataburger since i left the bible belt |
| 19:03.23 | spldart | whataburger is good :D |
| 19:03.43 | spldart | My uncle owns alot of franchises down in south texas... yum yum |
| 19:03.49 | spldart | He does real estate |
| 19:06.09 | orange | 5 triples? That's almost 4 pounds of just hamburger meat. |
| 19:06.22 | spldart | eek |
| 19:06.33 | spldart | Where's the beef?!?! |
| 19:06.35 | *** join/#bzflag escristian (~escristia@modemcable054.201-131-66.mc.videotron.ca) |
| 19:14.51 | escristian | Does the server serve only as a relay to send the player updates to other players? or does he do some kind of processing and send the new state to all clients? |
| 19:17.33 | jpa- | huh? |
| 19:18.05 | jpa- | well, server does send some of it's "own" messages, and just relays some |
| 19:18.45 | spldart | I would assume most of the processing is done by the clients. The servers acts mostly as a relay for positioins of other players |
| 19:20.04 | spldart | And a relay for messages |
| 19:20.08 | jpa- | server handles scores also, and flags |
| 19:20.11 | wegstar | why then does it put a heavy load on the server? :P |
| 19:20.21 | jpa- | wegstar: huh? |
| 19:20.28 | wegstar | err.. nothing :) |
| 19:21.00 | spldart | heh |
| 19:21.03 | escristian | but basically server is just a relay. |
| 19:21.42 | spldart | Although this question just popped up in my cobweb filled head.. |
| 19:21.56 | spldart | Does the shooter or shootee client decide that a bullet killed. |
| 19:22.12 | TheRedBaron | shootee client |
| 19:22.27 | escristian | that's it if the server onyl relays the clients could come up with differetn conclusions |
| 19:22.34 | JeffM2501 | it's the clients reponsibilty to report it's own death |
| 19:22.41 | jpa- | spldart: the one getting shot |
| 19:22.53 | JeffM2501 | this is why it's so easy to cheat |
| 19:23.03 | JeffM2501 | the server does very little |
| 19:23.14 | wegstar | hmm.. no wonder |
| 19:23.15 | JeffM2501 | it does minimal checking on the data right now |
| 19:23.31 | JeffM2501 | just some checks for speed and distance and postions |
| 19:23.38 | JeffM2501 | but the server does not have a true gamestate |
| 19:23.40 | spldart | I thought so but wasn't sure |
| 19:23.47 | escristian | me too |
| 19:23.53 | escristian | jsut wanted to make sure |
| 19:23.58 | JeffM2501 | bzflag has it's origins in LAN games |
| 19:24.07 | JeffM2501 | so at it's core it trusts all clients |
| 19:24.15 | JeffM2501 | in internet games you can't trust any client |
| 19:24.25 | spldart | Oh! So the server doesn't even track rudimentary postiions in a virtual map? It just watches for a few things like speed etc. |
| 19:24.33 | JeffM2501 | no it has no game state |
| 19:24.43 | JeffM2501 | it just looks at packets as they come in and trys to infer stuff |
| 19:24.49 | spldart | wow |
| 19:24.51 | spldart | ok |
| 19:24.53 | spldart | makes sense |
| 19:25.00 | TheRedBaron | JeffM2501, which would be better for lag? |
| 19:25.09 | *** join/#bzflag bz7704 (~d4dbf322@webchat.bzflag.bz) |
| 19:25.11 | JeffM2501 | lag is a difrent thing |
| 19:25.17 | JeffM2501 | lag happens |
| 19:25.19 | TheRedBaron | a server witha gamestate or? |
| 19:25.21 | JeffM2501 | you can't get rid of it |
| 19:25.32 | JeffM2501 | a server with a gamestate can do more lag compensations |
| 19:25.34 | TheRedBaron | well yes, lag happens, but what is the best setup for minimal lag? |
| 19:25.35 | JeffM2501 | then one with out |
| 19:25.35 | jpa- | server with the gamestate would be better |
| 19:25.46 | *** part/#bzflag bz7704 (~d4dbf322@webchat.bzflag.bz) |
| 19:25.47 | JeffM2501 | there is no setup for minimal lag |
| 19:25.58 | JeffM2501 | the latency is independnent of the server setup |
| 19:26.09 | JeffM2501 | since server CPU time time is a small part of lag |
| 19:26.19 | JeffM2501 | the server won't spend 100ms computing someting before a relay |
| 19:26.19 | jpa- | yup |
| 19:26.22 | JeffM2501 | so it won't add to lag |
| 19:26.23 | jpa- | but, it is different |
| 19:26.35 | JeffM2501 | what you want to do is provide ways to compensate for the lag |
| 19:26.36 | spldart | And what would you consider an acceptable level of lag on an public server? |
| 19:26.39 | JeffM2501 | since it's allways going to be there |
| 19:26.45 | spldart | I am considering putting lagkick in |
| 19:26.52 | JeffM2501 | spldart, in bzflag, as low as posible,since there is not any compensation |
| 19:27.01 | JeffM2501 | 300 is probalby safe |
| 19:27.06 | JeffM2501 | some go as low as 200 |
| 19:27.06 | spldart | IC |
| 19:27.13 | spldart | wow |
| 19:27.23 | spldart | I run like 70 to 90 on secretplace |
| 19:27.26 | JeffM2501 | dialup people are hard pressed to get under 200 consitently |
| 19:27.31 | spldart | and of course in the teens in my lan |
| 19:27.42 | JeffM2501 | yeah boradband on a close connect can keep it under 100 |
| 19:27.51 | JeffM2501 | but you can't have everyone in the world have that connect |
| 19:27.57 | *** part/#bzflag ToughShooter (~ts@pD9EA7A1F.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 19:28.12 | spldart | I was thinking of bumping people at 400 to 500 on up (if I can dial in kicklag |
| 19:28.25 | JeffM2501 | that would be fine |
| 19:28.29 | spldart | It's hard to shoot a 750mx :eek: |
| 19:28.36 | spldart | mx=ms |
| 19:29.15 | JeffM2501 | that's allmost a second |
| 19:29.19 | JeffM2501 | so it's understandable |
| 19:29.53 | spldart | yep (reminds me of interleaving avi's in virtualdub) |
| 19:30.07 | JeffM2501 | same kinda time frame |
| 19:30.17 | JeffM2501 | action games can't work with that kinda latency |
| 19:30.30 | spldart | yeah |
| 19:30.32 | JeffM2501 | specialy if they don't comp for them, and leave everyones gamestate out of sync |
| 19:30.49 | JeffM2501 | no single player has the same gamestate on a net game |
| 19:31.07 | escristian | Does lag depend on the slowest person that is connected on a server? |
| 19:31.12 | JeffM2501 | no |
| 19:31.27 | JeffM2501 | your connection dosn't have anyting to do with other connections |
| 19:31.32 | spldart | I've had somebody tell me that but it can't be true |
| 19:31.38 | JeffM2501 | but you will not see the lagy persons messages untill they get to you. |
| 19:31.47 | JeffM2501 | so it will affect how you see that person |
| 19:31.51 | JeffM2501 | and how your messages get to them |
| 19:31.56 | JeffM2501 | so they will be hard to kill |
| 19:31.59 | JeffM2501 | since when you shoot them |
| 19:32.04 | JeffM2501 | by the time they get the shot message |
| 19:32.06 | JeffM2501 | they have moved. |
| 19:32.09 | escristian | ok |
| 19:32.20 | escristian | thanks :) |
| 19:32.27 | wegstar | hmm... does it affect you in other ways than just that? |
| 19:32.33 | JeffM2501 | we've talked about authoritive servers |
| 19:32.38 | JeffM2501 | no not realy |
| 19:32.47 | JeffM2501 | all the game does is sent messages to the server |
| 19:32.50 | JeffM2501 | and get them from them |
| 19:32.55 | JeffM2501 | the server dosn't wait on anything |
| 19:33.04 | JeffM2501 | and you never do anything direclty with another user |
| 19:33.25 | cosmos | you need the new pay to beat lag code, for only $9.95/mo your client gets high priority over the other players ;) |
| 19:33.28 | wegstar | oh... |
| 19:33.41 | JeffM2501 | heh |
| 19:33.47 | spldart | So two fast connection tanks fighting each other is going to work great even if there is a guy with a really laggy tank logged in as well. |
| 19:33.47 | JeffM2501 | wish it was just a priority thing |
| 19:34.08 | JeffM2501 | lag is just the nature of speed of light |
| 19:34.11 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 19:34.15 | spldart | lol |
| 19:34.30 | JeffM2501 | that guy who is lagy is just going to send message and receve them later |
| 19:34.43 | JeffM2501 | if he was siting in a corner, it'd bee like he wasn't there |
| 19:34.53 | JeffM2501 | now he will take server bandwith |
| 19:35.09 | JeffM2501 | and that can reduce the bandwith available for other users |
| 19:35.18 | JeffM2501 | but that is regardless of his conncetion latency |
| 19:35.25 | JeffM2501 | any 3rd user would do that |
| 19:35.29 | spldart | Yep |
| 19:35.37 | spldart | That's what i thought was the case |
| 19:36.16 | wegstar | lunch? oops... |
| 19:40.20 | *** join/#bzflag bzflagwiz (~c02b41f5@webchat.bzflag.bz) |
| 19:54.07 | wegstar | hey wiz |
| 20:00.59 | bzflagwiz | hiya wegstar |
| 20:05.43 | *** join/#bzflag ElectricElf (dbharris@electricelf.user) |
| 20:09.30 | *** join/#bzflag Archangel_13 (~kevin@hsdbrg142-165-232-119.sasknet.sk.ca) |
| 20:11.42 | *** join/#bzflag newbie__dont (~janko@dly102.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) |
| 20:13.41 | *** join/#bzflag Tupone (~Tupone@host-84-222-139-127.cust-adsl.tiscali.it) |
| 20:17.32 | *** join/#bzflag brad2901 (bzbot@ACC8B3BB.ipt.aol.com) |
| 20:22.57 | *** join/#bzflag BIYA (~0481527e@webchat.bzflag.bz) |
| 20:32.43 | *** join/#bzflag bzflagwiz (~c02b41f5@webchat.bzflag.bz) |
| 20:33.00 | *** join/#bzflag Matt__ (BIYA@dialup-4.129.82.126.Dial1.Atlanta1.Level3.net) |
| 20:33.06 | Matt__ | Got it |
| 20:33.22 | brad2901 | ok |
| 20:33.26 | Matt__ | oops wrong nick |
| 20:33.41 | Matt__ | umm |
| 20:33.47 | brad2901 | <PROTECTED> |
| 20:34.03 | Matt__ | did that |
| 20:34.15 | BIYA_ | okay |
| 20:34.27 | brad2901 | you can close the other one now |
| 20:34.37 | BIYA | lol |
| 20:35.03 | BIYA_ | looks alot better |
| 20:35.09 | brad2901 | yep |
| 20:35.14 | wegstar | :) |
| 20:35.16 | BIYA_ | less refreshing |
| 20:35.41 | *** join/#bzflag bz1411 (~44542ca7@webchat.bzflag.bz) |
| 20:35.44 | bz1411 | hey all |
| 20:35.49 | BIYA_ | hey |
| 20:35.51 | wegstar | greetings |
| 20:35.52 | bz1411 | is there anyway to show server stats on a website? |
| 20:35.59 | bz1411 | through a dynamic image, or just through text? |
| 20:36.09 | wegstar | text |
| 20:37.04 | wegstar | in the misc folder of the bzflag CVS module, you'll find scripts that can get the server stats and display them.... |
| 20:37.16 | wegstar | there's bzflist.php, and some others... |
| 20:37.23 | bz1411 | mk |
| 20:37.26 | bz1411 | thank you =) |
| 20:38.23 | bz1411 | oh, and how much do observers take |
| 20:38.26 | bz1411 | Kbps wise |
| 20:39.17 | spldart | I was doing a test on just that the other day. Observers who are not moving pull VERY little bandwidth |
| 20:39.25 | spldart | if they are following a tank then significanlty more |
| 20:39.35 | bz1411 | mk |
| 20:39.46 | bz1411 | how many players would you recommend for a non-dedicated cable line |
| 20:39.47 | spldart | also depends on how busy the server |
| 20:39.57 | *** part/#bzflag brlcad (~brlcad@brlcad.bronze.supporter.pdpc) |
| 20:40.04 | spldart | I'm running 8 on my cable line.... but it depends |
| 20:40.12 | spldart | Whats your upload bandwidth |
| 20:40.16 | bz1411 | 365 |
| 20:40.21 | spldart | about mine |
| 20:40.23 | bz1411 | mk |
| 20:40.27 | BIYA_ | more people more bandwith |
| 20:40.27 | bz1411 | and no lag? |
| 20:40.29 | spldart | 8 works really good I've sen |
| 20:40.31 | spldart | little lag |
| 20:40.38 | bz1411 | playable? |
| 20:40.40 | spldart | unlesss your downoading something |
| 20:40.43 | spldart | very playable |
| 20:40.46 | bz1411 | ok |
| 20:40.50 | bz1411 | thanks |
| 20:40.54 | spldart | unless your moving data otherwise |
| 20:41.21 | cosmos | just install a DS3 at your house |
| 20:41.37 | spldart | Is that some sort of trunk? |
| 20:42.47 | spldart | Anywho... I like to be observer, f8 to brake off the lead tank and then hover above the map looking down |
| 20:43.02 | spldart | It's the best way for an observer not to load up a map |
| 20:43.23 | spldart | I mean load up a server |
| 20:44.02 | BIYA_ | brb |
| 20:44.15 | blast007 | spldart: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ds3 |
| 20:44.55 | spldart | That could host a hundred tanks :eek: |
| 20:44.57 | spldart | or more |
| 20:47.10 | *** join/#bzflag creeperz (~creeperz@host-40-145-230-24.midco.net) |
| 20:52.45 | *** join/#bzflag Matt__ (BIYA@dialup-4.129.86.13.Dial1.Atlanta1.Level3.net) |
| 20:57.30 | *** join/#bzflag CBG (~CannonBal@cpc3-stme1-5-0-cust91.cdif.cable.ntl.com) |
| 20:57.34 | CBG | Hello... |
| 20:57.53 | CBG | When is the new version going to be released for Mac OS X? |
| 20:59.45 | bz1411 | uh, what would the ds3 do? |
| 20:59.56 | bz1411 | I'm not to understanding of it |
| 21:00.48 | SportyGal | tough: are you still having problems with that kitty impersonator guy? |
| 21:00.48 | CBG | wow. why did so many people all signoff at the exact same time??? |
| 21:01.06 | *** join/#bzflag orange (~mdw@orange.active.supporter.pdpc) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 21:01.10 | wegstar | err... its a netsplit |
| 21:01.10 | *** join/#bzflag Nidhoggr (mandrake@dragon.org) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 21:01.12 | Aribeth | prolly a change in freenode servers |
| 21:01.12 | spldart | apparently ds3 is a major connection to the net :eek: like 45mbps |
| 21:01.23 | spldart | You could host a crazy server with that :eek: |
| 21:01.47 | CBG | Ok. So... When is the new version going to be released for Mac OS X? |
| 21:02.09 | spldart | There's your man |
| 21:02.48 | wegstar | wow.. |
| 21:03.14 | bz1411 | then stop asking. |
| 21:03.19 | spldart | I wouldn't know :( |
| 21:03.22 | CBG | lol. :p |
| 21:03.23 | bz1411 | ;) |
| 21:03.24 | *** join/#bzflag bzflagwiz (~c02b41f5@webchat.bzflag.bz) |
| 21:03.27 | CBG | someone must know. |
| 21:03.29 | wegstar | hmm |
| 21:03.31 | wegstar | nope |
| 21:03.36 | wegstar | gotta wait :P |
| 21:03.37 | bz1411 | you prolly know as much as we do |
| 21:03.38 | JeffM2501 | mac version will be done when somone builds it |
| 21:03.44 | JeffM2501 | usualy it's brlcad |
| 21:03.45 | bz1411 | good call Jeff |
| 21:03.49 | JeffM2501 | but he has not had chance to |
| 21:03.57 | JeffM2501 | every mac has the ability to build from source |
| 21:04.10 | CBG | how? |
| 21:04.19 | JeffM2501 | OSX comes with dev Tools |
| 21:04.28 | JeffM2501 | then a command line build would work just fine |
| 21:04.36 | CBG | Ok. Im lost... |
| 21:04.42 | JeffM2501 | most mac users are |
| 21:04.46 | CBG | Got a map? |
| 21:04.50 | JeffM2501 | I could try to do a build tonight if somone reminds me |
| 21:04.57 | CBG | lol. :D thats because OS X is soo good. :p |
| 21:05.02 | JeffM2501 | building on a mac is just like building on linux |
| 21:05.22 | JeffM2501 | but any build I make will probably only work on 10.3 |
| 21:05.41 | JeffM2501 | mac people don't "get" the build cus it's not a point and click thing |
| 21:05.44 | JeffM2501 | it's a terminal thing |
| 21:05.49 | CBG | is there any chance I could do it even though I have no idea whatOSX comes with dev Tools |
| 21:05.58 | JeffM2501 | probably not |
| 21:06.00 | *** join/#bzflag rabbit25 (~rabbit25@pcp03852369pcs.martnz01.ga.comcast.net) |
| 21:06.06 | CBG | is there any chance I could do it even though I have no idea whatOSX comes with dev Tools |
| 21:06.08 | JeffM2501 | since you would have to install SDL dev libs |
| 21:06.24 | JeffM2501 | and you'd have to know how to use command line GCC |
| 21:06.35 | JeffM2501 | remind me after 6:00 tonight |
| 21:06.45 | JeffM2501 | and I'll build on on my mini |
| 21:06.49 | bz1411 | uh, is setting up a server on windows 2000 as strait forward as it seems? |
| 21:07.03 | JeffM2501 | bz1411, it's the same as it is on every os |
| 21:07.11 | JeffM2501 | bzfs is a command line app, works the same everywhere |
| 21:07.22 | bz1411 | mk, then why did it open in IE |
| 21:07.31 | *** join/#bzflag TimRiker (~timr@TimRiker.active.supporter.pdpc) |
| 21:07.31 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ |
| 21:07.36 | JeffM2501 | what is "it" ? |
| 21:07.44 | bz1411 | BZFS Configuration Builder |
| 21:07.51 | *** join/#bzflag brlcad (~brlcad@brlcad.bronze.supporter.pdpc) |
| 21:07.51 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o brlcad] by ChanServ |
| 21:07.51 | JeffM2501 | that is a tool for windows |
| 21:07.58 | JeffM2501 | that makes configs |
| 21:08.01 | JeffM2501 | it uses java |
| 21:08.04 | JeffM2501 | on windows that means IE |
| 21:08.10 | JeffM2501 | that is just a tool |
| 21:08.13 | JeffM2501 | not the server iteself |
| 21:08.15 | blast007 | java? |
| 21:08.19 | bz1411 | mk |
| 21:08.23 | JeffM2501 | it's best if you do your config by hand |
| 21:08.26 | JeffM2501 | so you learn the options |
| 21:08.26 | bz1411 | so, i configure the server |
| 21:08.28 | JeffM2501 | it's not hard |
| 21:08.35 | JeffM2501 | that just generates a config file |
| 21:08.37 | bz1411 | then compile |
| 21:08.39 | bz1411 | ok |
| 21:08.40 | JeffM2501 | NO |
| 21:08.41 | bz1411 | uh |
| 21:08.46 | JeffM2501 | it has nothing to do with compiling |
| 21:08.47 | bz1411 | alright alright |
| 21:08.54 | JeffM2501 | bzfs -confg "some config file" |
| 21:09.09 | JeffM2501 | the config for the server just sets the options for the game you want to run |
| 21:09.29 | bz1411 | mk |
| 21:09.34 | JeffM2501 | blast007, mebigfatguys's config generateor uses java IIRC |
| 21:09.49 | blast007 | ah |
| 21:09.51 | bz1411 | easier than doing the -a and things in the command promt? |
| 21:09.52 | DTRemenak | javascript. not exactly the same |
| 21:09.55 | blast007 | I was thinking of the javascript one |
| 21:10.04 | JeffM2501 | bz1411, yeah configs are the way to go |
| 21:10.15 | SportyGal | JeffM2501: I have a question |
| 21:10.17 | JeffM2501 | windows has a command line size limit |
| 21:10.22 | bz1411 | mk, is one included in the linux version of bzfs? |
| 21:10.32 | JeffM2501 | SportyGal, hit me |
| 21:10.33 | spldart | Yep :( |
| 21:10.45 | spldart | command size limit hates me :( |
| 21:10.50 | *** join/#bzflag LordSarpedon (~naht@adsl-70-240-226-128.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net) |
| 21:10.52 | JeffM2501 | bz1411, the source distro has a sample for all OSs |
| 21:10.58 | JeffM2501 | the windows binary release dosn't have a smaple |
| 21:10.59 | SportyGal | somehow, without changing ip, he is still connecting |
| 21:11.09 | SportyGal | any idea how he's doing that? |
| 21:11.11 | JeffM2501 | the source release is not "the linux version" as the source can be used on any OS |
| 21:11.32 | JeffM2501 | did you ban by hostmask or by IP? |
| 21:11.35 | LordSarpedon | Any OS huh...I tried to compile that today ;) |
| 21:11.37 | SportyGal | it was by ip |
| 21:11.51 | blast007 | SportyGal: ANTIBAN permission? |
| 21:11.52 | JeffM2501 | yes any OS, there are build systems for each OS |
| 21:12.05 | orchid | http://strayer.de/pics/psychiatrist.jpg |
| 21:12.09 | SportyGal | blast007: I sincerely doubt it, as he keeps changing names |
| 21:12.13 | JeffM2501 | SportyGal, then his IP changed, or he got on an ANITBAN, or the ban didnt' stick |
| 21:12.15 | blast007 | ah |
| 21:12.15 | LordSarpedon | I keep havin some issues with configure and make not finding my GL headers |
| 21:12.27 | SportyGal | JeffM2501: how would a ban "not stick"? |
| 21:12.42 | JeffM2501 | it didn't get applied to the file, the file was changed, etc... |
| 21:12.55 | JeffM2501 | LordSarpedon, install mesa dev or nvidia dev if you have a package for it |
| 21:13.07 | JeffM2501 | and if you have nivida drivers |
| 21:13.07 | *** join/#bzflag menotume (~meno@menotume.active.supporter.pdpc) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 21:13.12 | LordSarpedon | Yeah, I have mesa dev...headers are in /usr/include/GL |
| 21:13.13 | bz1411 | what is the "allowed/mandatory super flags" bit? |
| 21:13.15 | JeffM2501 | nvidia can install it's own version of GL |
| 21:13.18 | *** join/#bzflag blast007_away (~blast@24-196-92-143.jvl.wi.charter.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 21:13.20 | JeffM2501 | what card do you have? |
| 21:13.21 | LordSarpedon | even set CPPFLAGS to include that directory... |
| 21:13.28 | JeffM2501 | bz1411, read the manual |
| 21:13.38 | *** join/#bzflag darth_mall (~evan@128.138.74.40) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 21:13.45 | JeffM2501 | LordSarpedon, then it should find it |
| 21:13.48 | LordSarpedon | Well, I'm using a radeon x800 with the ati linux drivers |
| 21:13.51 | JeffM2501 | if it can't then it's not using those flags |
| 21:13.52 | *** join/#bzflag scanline (~micah@128.138.74.40) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 21:14.00 | brlcad | LordSarpedon: what makes you think it's not finding it? |
| 21:14.05 | JeffM2501 | and make sure it's the right case |
| 21:14.09 | JeffM2501 | brlcad, his config |
| 21:14.16 | JeffM2501 | did you rerun autogen? |
| 21:14.20 | brlcad | probably/usually missing -lpthread |
| 21:14.23 | *** join/#bzflag Tupone (~Tupone@host-84-222-139-127.cust-adsl.tiscali.it) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 21:14.28 | LordSarpedon | Nah, I got the stable from the site |
| 21:14.34 | LordSarpedon | Should I do autogen then? |
| 21:14.36 | brlcad | not necessarily not finding the headers themselves |
| 21:14.46 | bz1411 | will do =) |
| 21:15.04 | LordSarpedon | Configure complains it can't find gl.h, and siables client generation |
| 21:15.22 | CBG | Can you run a bz server from a shared web server? |
| 21:15.34 | JeffM2501 | CBG, bzfs is not a web app |
| 21:15.46 | JeffM2501 | you need to be able to run the executable from the system |
| 21:15.54 | JeffM2501 | and have TCP and UDP ports open |
| 21:15.56 | Mr_Molez | ohh reboot |
| 21:15.56 | LordSarpedon | Have shell access? |
| 21:15.57 | JeffM2501 | so generaly no |
| 21:16.01 | CBG | but, a 'web server' is just like a computer, without a monitor, right? |
| 21:16.08 | JeffM2501 | it can be |
| 21:16.13 | JeffM2501 | most shared hosts don't give you exe access |
| 21:16.20 | *** join/#bzflag scanline (~micah@128.138.74.40) |
| 21:16.27 | JeffM2501 | or provide routes for non web ports |
| 21:16.36 | JeffM2501 | is it your ISP's web host? |
| 21:17.26 | *** join/#bzflag CBG (~CannonBal@cpc3-stme1-5-0-cust91.cdif.cable.ntl.com) |
| 21:17.30 | CBG | sorry, what i miss? |
| 21:17.41 | Mr_Molez | hi cbg :p |
| 21:17.44 | LordSarpedon | <JeffM2501> is it your ISP's web host? |
| 21:17.56 | blast007 | and: * JeffM2501 has quit ("NINJA!") |
| 21:17.58 | blast007 | ;) |
| 21:17.58 | CBG | hi molez |
| 21:18.03 | LordSarpedon | Heh yeah |
| 21:18.06 | *** join/#bzflag JeffM2501 (~JeffM@Patlabor221.active.supporter.pdpc) |
| 21:18.06 | *** mode/#bzflag [+o JeffM2501] by ChanServ |
| 21:18.13 | CBG | thanks.... |
| 21:18.26 | JeffM2501 | ibot bzfslist |
| 21:18.34 | JeffM2501 | bahh |
| 21:18.36 | CBG | Jeff: its not my ISP's web host |
| 21:18.43 | JeffM2501 | is it shared hosting? |
| 21:18.52 | JeffM2501 | where you have like a web controll panel to upload files and stuff? |
| 21:18.53 | TimRiker | ibot: bzflist |
| 21:18.54 | bz1411 | uh, anyone know if comcast cable internet uses static or dynamic ip addresses? |
| 21:18.57 | JeffM2501 | thanks time |
| 21:18.58 | LordSarpedon | Jeff: More on my issue...I ran make anyway, and it lists the include for gcc |
| 21:18.58 | JeffM2501 | tim |
| 21:19.02 | CBG | Im a web designer (wannabe) and I ahve bought some hosting for my sites.... any way I can run a bz server off of that? |
| 21:19.13 | DTRemenak | CBG: you need two things...shell access and a route |
| 21:19.21 | CBG | Ok... |
| 21:19.22 | CBG | Im lost |
| 21:19.29 | JeffM2501 | cgb, is it your own dedicated colo server? |
| 21:19.34 | CBG | How do I find out if I ahve shell access and a route? |
| 21:19.38 | JeffM2501 | or just like some space with a virtual hosting service? |
| 21:19.40 | *** join/#bzflag blast007_away (~blast@24-196-92-143.jvl.wi.charter.com) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 21:19.42 | JeffM2501 | how much do you pay? |
| 21:19.43 | CBG | its shared hosting... |
| 21:19.52 | JeffM2501 | how do you upload files to the host? |
| 21:19.58 | CBG | $3.5/mo |
| 21:20.02 | DTRemenak | there's more than one kind of shared hosting, CBG |
| 21:20.02 | CBG | CPanel |
| 21:20.11 | *** join/#bzflag elmerfudd (~elmer@67-51-33-137.nrp4feld.roc.ny.frontiernet.net) |
| 21:20.18 | JeffM2501 | so you don't get a shell account or FTP or anyting? |
| 21:20.26 | JeffM2501 | for that price I doubt that you do |
| 21:20.30 | CBG | I can use FTP... |
| 21:20.51 | blast007 | hmm, would CPanel show if there is shell access? |
| 21:20.52 | CBG | Hello elmerfudd, welcome to #bzflag |
| 21:20.52 | JeffM2501 | you have a bandwith limit? |
| 21:21.04 | elmerfudd | 0808,02hello CBG |
| 21:21.04 | CBG | a few gigs |
| 21:21.05 | DTRemenak | eep |
| 21:21.06 | JeffM2501 | gack color! |
| 21:21.08 | JeffM2501 | make it stop! |
| 21:21.12 | CBG | but Im not worried about how much bw or space i need |
| 21:21.15 | orchid | ~d |
| 21:21.20 | JeffM2501 | no not SPACE |
| 21:21.22 | JeffM2501 | bandwith |
| 21:21.26 | JeffM2501 | how much transfer |
| 21:21.29 | elmerfudd | 0808,02where is ducati anyways |
| 21:21.31 | CBG | nim not worried bout that |
| 21:21.36 | JeffM2501 | please stop the color elmerfudd |
| 21:21.38 | blast007 | elmerfudd: please turn off the color |
| 21:21.40 | DTRemenak | elmerfudd: knock the color off |
| 21:21.45 | CBG | but it is possible to run a server from shared hosting? |
| 21:21.50 | JeffM2501 | usualy not |
| 21:22.02 | JeffM2501 | bzfs has nothing to do with the web |
| 21:22.04 | LordSarpedon | Email the provider, ask if they will help |
| 21:22.19 | JeffM2501 | basicly you would need to know the OS of the sytem |
| 21:22.20 | CBG | so, No. |
| 21:22.23 | JeffM2501 | get a shell account |
| 21:22.25 | JeffM2501 | build bzfs for it |
| 21:22.27 | JeffM2501 | run it |
| 21:22.32 | JeffM2501 | and then suck up all there bandwith |
| 21:22.39 | CBG | whats a shell account? lol |
| 21:22.40 | JeffM2501 | and have them route a bzfs port to that system |
| 21:22.52 | JeffM2501 | it lets you log into the machine via command line and run programs on the computer |
| 21:22.59 | elmerfudd | 01,02is ducati down? |
| 21:23.01 | Mr_Molez | a shell account is an account on another computer.. usually accessed by ssh or something |
| 21:23.02 | LordSarpedon | Jeff: I don't know how they would be able to limit the bandwidth... |
| 21:23.06 | JeffM2501 | elmer blue balackground |
| 21:23.17 | elmerfudd | 0808,02im sorry it wont stop damn trillian |
| 21:23.18 | JeffM2501 | LordSarpedon, they would, they are an ISP that's what they do |
| 21:23.21 | LordSarpedon | Usually thats done thru apache, right? |
| 21:23.34 | JeffM2501 | elmerfudd, it will it's a setting, or don't use trillian |
| 21:23.36 | LordSarpedon | Ohh...isp ok |
| 21:23.38 | DTRemenak | elmerfudd: then get a different client. and watch your language. |
| 21:23.39 | CBG | is elmer posting anything, or is his text white? |
| 21:23.52 | JeffM2501 | it's yellow on a blue background |
| 21:23.53 | LordSarpedon | CBG: He has colored text |
| 21:24.06 | elmerfudd | 01,00there we go |
| 21:24.08 | CBG | it looks like hes not posting on ircle.. |
| 21:24.12 | JeffM2501 | that is a gray background |
| 21:24.16 | CBG | its white text on white bg |
| 21:24.17 | JeffM2501 | with bold text |
| 21:24.26 | CBG | but even when i highlight it it doesnt show up. odd |
| 21:24.47 | LordSarpedon | Still got my GL problem. |
| 21:25.00 | JeffM2501 | LordSarpedon, did you do what brlcad said? |
| 21:25.06 | LordSarpedon | autogen? |
| 21:25.23 | JeffM2501 | the thread thing |
| 21:25.24 | DTRemenak | no, -lpthread |
| 21:25.31 | elmerfudd | 01,00how much bw does bzflag use per client |
| 21:25.38 | JeffM2501 | about 5k |
| 21:25.45 | JeffM2501 | and dude, bold on gray, bad |
| 21:25.47 | LordSarpedon | lpthreads...hm.... |
| 21:25.49 | JeffM2501 | just turn off all color setings |
| 21:25.50 | CBG | elmer, change font color so I can see it please |
| 21:25.57 | elmerfudd | 01,00i did |
| 21:26.02 | JeffM2501 | no you didn't |
| 21:26.05 | JeffM2501 | use a real IRC client please |
| 21:26.08 | brlcad | it's reversed |
| 21:26.09 | LordSarpedon | Indeed |
| 21:26.11 | CBG | me?? |
| 21:26.17 | JeffM2501 | well both of you :) |
| 21:26.20 | LordSarpedon | no, fudd |
| 21:26.21 | CBG | what? |
| 21:26.27 | elmerfudd | 01,00ill be right back then |
| 21:26.28 | CBG | im using ircle, whats wrong with that? |
| 21:26.34 | *** part/#bzflag elmerfudd (~elmer@67-51-33-137.nrp4feld.roc.ny.frontiernet.net) |
| 21:26.34 | JeffM2501 | its ircle :) |
| 21:26.43 | CBG | whats wrong with that? |
| 21:26.52 | JeffM2501 | just not my prefered |
| 21:26.57 | CBG | why? |
| 21:27.03 | JeffM2501 | and it seems to have some font rendering issues :) |
| 21:27.10 | JeffM2501 | cus xchat is better :) |
| 21:27.11 | CBG | lol. thats true. :P |
| 21:27.19 | CBG | xchat is for OS X, and free? |
| 21:27.23 | LordSarpedon | With the GL headers: What I find odd is that gcc doesn't report it can't find the file, just several K of "undefiend references" for functions in GL |
| 21:27.30 | JeffM2501 | xchat aqua baby! |
| 21:27.32 | brlcad | if xchat weren't so dang ugly.. hrm |
| 21:27.33 | Mr_Molez | xchat rulez |
| 21:27.38 | Mr_Molez | irssi is better though :p |
| 21:27.54 | bz1411 | what would be the address for a public list server |
| 21:27.55 | CBG | whats the best free irc client for OS X? |
| 21:28.03 | rabbit25 | Xchat |
| 21:28.14 | rabbit25 | *Xchat aqua |
| 21:28.15 | brlcad | CBG, ircle, xchat, irssi, all fine for os x |
| 21:28.19 | DTRemenak | bz1411: leave that option out, it will choose the correct default |
| 21:28.24 | bz1411 | mk |
| 21:28.34 | brlcad | CBG: just make sure you understand your tool :) |
| 21:28.35 | JeffM2501 | xchat just works |
| 21:28.39 | bz1411 | same with listen on interface? |
| 21:28.47 | CBG | lo. ok |
| 21:28.53 | JeffM2501 | bz1411, if you don't know what it is, jsut don't put it in |
| 21:28.59 | JeffM2501 | the system has defaults for all things |
| 21:29.01 | bz1411 | lol mk |
| 21:29.08 | CBG | but http://www.irchelp.org/irchelp/mac/ says to get Ircle or Snak... |
| 21:29.22 | JeffM2501 | well the internet isn't allways right |
| 21:29.28 | LordSarpedon | *gasp* |
| 21:29.38 | JeffM2501 | since it's based on people |
| 21:29.43 | LordSarpedon | The very foundation of my existince..... |
| 21:29.49 | CBG | Jeff; What did you say? |
| 21:30.04 | CBG | Jeff; Do you kiss your mother with that mouth? |
| 21:30.29 | LordSarpedon | ok...back on topic |
| 21:30.36 | LordSarpedon | With the GL headers: What I find odd is that gcc doesn't report it can't find the file, just several K of "undefiend references" for functions in GL |
| 21:30.55 | *** join/#bzflag elmerfudd (~Full@67-51-33-137.nrp4feld.roc.ny.frontiernet.net) |
| 21:31.02 | elmerfudd | there im back |
| 21:31.10 | LordSarpedon | Better! |
| 21:31.12 | JeffM2501 | LordSarpedon, then your GL headers may not be right, or your mising other libs it needs. |
| 21:31.18 | CBG | nice one elmer |
| 21:31.22 | elmerfudd | had to find a chat applet :S |
| 21:31.27 | brlcad | undefined references means its missing the library |
| 21:31.29 | LordSarpedon | Yes, perhaps its the libs that are the prob |
| 21:31.33 | brlcad | mesagl-dev perhaps? |
| 21:31.47 | JeffM2501 | elmerfudd, how fast is your net connection? |
| 21:31.49 | LordSarpedon | Installed that...might have to add lib path to flags |
| 21:31.58 | elmerfudd | not fast enough to handle a server |
| 21:32.06 | JeffM2501 | what speed |
| 21:32.08 | LordSarpedon | err....whats the env for that? |
| 21:32.23 | JeffM2501 | elmerfudd, there are many connection speeds |
| 21:32.23 | elmerfudd | umm its ADSL... sooo idk |
| 21:32.30 | JeffM2501 | what speed? |
| 21:32.44 | brlcad | ./configure LDFLAGS="-L/usr/X11R6/lib -lGL -lpthread" |
| 21:32.53 | elmerfudd | ill take a bw test |
| 21:32.56 | elmerfudd | hold on |
| 21:33.03 | JeffM2501 | DSL upstream ranges from 128k up ( 2-3 players ) to 756kup (5-8 players ). |
| 21:33.14 | LordSarpedon | thanks brclad |
| 21:33.24 | brlcad | LordSarpedon: do you know where your GL library is? |
| 21:33.42 | LordSarpedon | hmmm....I'll have to switch back to SuSE |
| 21:33.44 | Mr_Molez | nhow come it more than doubles ?? |
| 21:34.05 | brlcad | Mr_Molez: usage is non-linear |
| 21:34.07 | CBG | we have the one that is not 56K, the next one up :D |
| 21:34.10 | spldart | Not to take issue but i think your bw per player might be a tad conservative... Not that that is a bad thing. |
| 21:35.14 | elmerfudd | 458.1 kpbs |
| 21:35.23 | JeffM2501 | you'll get 5-6 people |
| 21:35.31 | spldart | I do 3m down and 355 up on a good day. I can have 6 players and 1 observer and everbody under 200ms lagtimes. which is do-able |
| 21:35.31 | JeffM2501 | maybe a bit more |
| 21:35.35 | JeffM2501 | depending on shot count |
| 21:35.39 | brlcad | you can fit more than 5-8 on a 756 depending on shots |
| 21:35.40 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 21:36.02 | elmerfudd | but i play counterstike too, and it hogs the bandwidth |
| 21:36.03 | JeffM2501 | brlcad, I'm asuming the standard munchkin 10 shot :) |
| 21:36.12 | JeffM2501 | ok |
| 21:36.13 | brlcad | real rough estimate is 56K per player for a busy map |
| 21:36.19 | JeffM2501 | then that will suck bandwith |
| 21:36.24 | JeffM2501 | deal acordingly |
| 21:36.32 | LordSarpedon | brclad: please explain the -l option |
| 21:36.48 | elmerfudd | what happened to ducati? |
| 21:36.55 | brlcad | -l == link with this library |
| 21:37.00 | spldart | hrm... That must have been a good day ;) |
| 21:37.01 | JeffM2501 | it was sent to the moon |
| 21:37.09 | LordSarpedon | ok |
| 21:37.13 | CBG | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:37.16 | CBG | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:37.20 | LordSarpedon | BRB guys switchin to Nix |
| 21:37.22 | CBG | thats what it told me |
| 21:37.25 | CBG | i dunno |
| 21:37.46 | CBG | so its good? |
| 21:37.53 | JeffM2501 | if that realy is over a meg up |
| 21:37.56 | JeffM2501 | then yeah |
| 21:38.01 | CBG | wooo |
| 21:38.27 | JeffM2501 | oh |
| 21:38.29 | JeffM2501 | that test |
| 21:38.31 | JeffM2501 | it does down only |
| 21:38.34 | JeffM2501 | run the one I linked you |
| 21:38.38 | CBG | oh |
| 21:38.44 | CBG | that one asked for an area code |
| 21:38.46 | CBG | im in the UK |
| 21:38.54 | JeffM2501 | that just affects latency |
| 21:39.01 | JeffM2501 | and you just need a ballbark |
| 21:39.08 | CBG | ballbark?? |
| 21:39.24 | JeffM2501 | a figure near your real sopeed |
| 21:39.27 | JeffM2501 | speed |
| 21:39.29 | JeffM2501 | something close |
| 21:39.29 | CBG | im trying http://www.bandwidthplace.com/speedtest |
| 21:39.52 | CBG | 421.1 kilobits per second |
| 21:39.52 | CBG | Communications 421.1 kilobits per second |
| 21:39.52 | CBG | Storage 51.4 kilobytes per second |
| 21:39.52 | CBG | 1MB file download 19.9 seconds |
| 21:39.52 | CBG | Subjective rating Not bad |
| 21:40.01 | JeffM2501 | download dosn't mater |
| 21:40.04 | JeffM2501 | you want UPLOAD |
| 21:40.14 | Mr_Molez | wow |
| 21:40.17 | JeffM2501 | use the DSL reports test |
| 21:40.53 | JeffM2501 | tho I'm beting your normal 1.5/128 DSL/cable |
| 21:40.55 | CBG | I want "Upstream" |
| 21:40.58 | CBG | ?? yeah?? |
| 21:41.00 | JeffM2501 | yes |
| 21:41.46 | CBG | ok |
| 21:43.03 | CBG | Upstream |
| 21:43.03 | CBG | 117 Kbps (14.6 KB/sec) |
| 21:43.05 | CBG | 126 Kbps (inc. overheads) |
| 21:43.23 | JeffM2501 | yeah 128 |
| 21:43.31 | CBG | good? |
| 21:43.40 | JeffM2501 | you can get 3-4 players if you set your setings right |
| 21:43.47 | DTRemenak | ~128/40 |
| 21:43.48 | ibot | 3.2 |
| 21:43.48 | JeffM2501 | it's actualy the minimum for broadband |
| 21:44.02 | CBG | 3-4, thats all? |
| 21:44.05 | DTRemenak | 3.2 players for 10-shot |
| 21:44.07 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 21:44.10 | CBG | awww |
| 21:44.15 | JeffM2501 | you have a low end boradband connection |
| 21:44.17 | CBG | what if I have less shots? |
| 21:44.20 | JeffM2501 | secretblace uses about a meg |
| 21:44.22 | DTRemenak | drop the number of shots and you can host a few more |
| 21:44.22 | JeffM2501 | a second |
| 21:44.27 | CBG | and a simple map? like ducati style.. |
| 21:44.31 | JeffM2501 | map dosnt' mater |
| 21:44.33 | JeffM2501 | it's tanks |
| 21:44.33 | DTRemenak | map doesn't matter |
| 21:44.34 | JeffM2501 | and shots |
| 21:44.34 | CBG | ok |
| 21:44.35 | JeffM2501 | that's it |
| 21:44.52 | spldart | shots = fast moving items that have to be tracked equalling bandwidth :( |
| 21:44.56 | DTRemenak | ~128/30 |
| 21:44.57 | ibot | 4.266666666667 |
| 21:44.58 | brlcad | make it 1-shot, and you'll get a few more players :) |
| 21:45.05 | CBG | lol. |
| 21:45.05 | brlcad | okay, 1 more |
| 21:45.06 | DTRemenak | 4 or 5 on three-shot |
| 21:45.17 | CBG | noh. ok cool |
| 21:45.29 | DTRemenak | I haven't done calculations for 1-shot :) |
| 21:45.31 | CBG | could I get 3v3 1ith 2 shots? |
| 21:45.44 | JeffM2501 | you'd flood easy |
| 21:45.52 | DTRemenak | probably, as long as you had no GMs |
| 21:45.52 | JeffM2501 | but it may be dooable |
| 21:45.55 | brlcad | CBG with no observers, yes |
| 21:46.00 | DTRemenak | and no observers |
| 21:46.04 | CBG | flood? |
| 21:46.13 | JeffM2501 | saturate your connection |
| 21:46.21 | JeffM2501 | basicly have more data to send then you can send |
| 21:46.21 | CBG | and can I get more without superflags compared to with? |
| 21:46.21 | CBG | ok. |
| 21:46.25 | DTRemenak | and if that's ALL you're running on your connection - e.g. you couldn't surf the web or anything |
| 21:46.49 | DTRemenak | which would suck |
| 21:46.55 | brlcad | yeah, gotta stop the p2p porn sharing |
| 21:47.12 | JeffM2501 | and checking mail |
| 21:47.21 | spldart | LOL |
| 21:47.57 | CBG | damn. I can;'t live without my pron vids... |
| 21:48.04 | CBG | ;) |
| 21:48.20 | CBG | <PROTECTED> |
| 21:48.20 | JeffM2501 | and if you are wanting this to be a dedicated server, you arn't ever turning your mac off |
| 21:48.26 | brlcad | nothing wrong with keeping them.. just can't share them while the server's busy ;) |
| 21:48.31 | CBG | yeah, i know that, :( |
| 21:48.31 | DTRemenak | superflags make no difference |
| 21:48.34 | DTRemenak | except for gm |
| 21:48.42 | CBG | so, dont use GM... :D lol |
| 21:48.54 | DTRemenak | yeah, disable gm if you have bandwith probs :) |
| 21:49.13 | brlcad | i suspect wings makes a tiny difference the a packet per flap |
| 21:49.15 | JeffM2501 | the big thing is, none of the over 100 servers out there will give you the game you want? |
| 21:49.19 | *** join/#bzflag Lord_Sarpedon (~Lord_Sarp@adsl-70-240-226-128.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net) |
| 21:49.24 | CBG | so, servers than can have 30+players have what size connection? |
| 21:49.25 | Lord_Sarpedon | 'bout time |
| 21:49.35 | DTRemenak | ~30*40 |
| 21:49.36 | ibot | 1200 |
| 21:49.39 | JeffM2501 | GBC you'd want at least like a T1 |
| 21:49.41 | DTRemenak | 1.2 megabits up |
| 21:49.41 | JeffM2501 | or better |
| 21:49.48 | DTRemenak | so a full T1 |
| 21:49.56 | CBG | so, tens times the size of my connection? |
| 21:49.58 | JeffM2501 | secretplace runs on a dedicated connection at a datacenter |
| 21:49.58 | CBG | wow. |
| 21:50.02 | DTRemenak | yeah pretty much :P |
| 21:50.03 | CBG | how much is that/month? |
| 21:50.09 | JeffM2501 | costing like 100$ a month |
| 21:50.16 | CBG | holy cows. |
| 21:50.19 | CBG | but wait |
| 21:50.25 | DTRemenak | the rule for trunk lines is "if you have to ask, it's too much" |
| 21:50.31 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 21:50.39 | Lord_Sarpedon | DT: So true |
| 21:50.42 | JeffM2501 | basicly it's at a place like where your shared hosting is |
| 21:50.47 | JeffM2501 | but he's on one machine |
| 21:50.48 | CBG | my connections is almost £20/month, but a connection 10times bigger is only £55 ? |
| 21:50.50 | JeffM2501 | all to himself |
| 21:50.57 | elmerfudd | how do they pay for that :O |
| 21:51.06 | JeffM2501 | nid works at the ISP |
| 21:51.08 | JeffM2501 | and he's REALY cool |
| 21:51.15 | DTRemenak | CBG: that's not a typical rate |
| 21:51.31 | JeffM2501 | yeah he's geting special deals |
| 21:51.38 | CBG | Oh... lol. ok |
| 21:51.39 | JeffM2501 | basicly it's a decent chunk of cash |
| 21:51.39 | DTRemenak | I looked up T1 in the sacramento area, it was $725/mo |
| 21:51.40 | JeffM2501 | and setups |
| 21:51.55 | CBG | £300+? |
| 21:51.56 | JeffM2501 | we play about 500 for our T1 |
| 21:51.59 | JeffM2501 | to here |
| 21:52.01 | DTRemenak | yeah |
| 21:52.04 | Lord_Sarpedon | so what args for configure, again? |
| 21:52.04 | DTRemenak | that's typical |
| 21:52.05 | CBG | thats about right... 30 X 10... |
| 21:52.08 | JeffM2501 | we pay about 85 a month for our colo |
| 21:52.22 | JeffM2501 | then 25$ a gig over our 360gig a month base transfer |
| 21:52.35 | CBG | man, I gotta get a job!! :D lol |
| 21:52.54 | JeffM2501 | it's cheaper to pay for a server at a datacenter then it is to get a connection to your house with the same bandwith |
| 21:53.01 | elmerfudd | hosting: such a good business |
| 21:53.07 | Lord_Sarpedon | what agrs should I pass for configure? |
| 21:53.18 | brlcad | it'd cost me 4x to get my dedicated line to the house |
| 21:53.34 | *** join/#bzflag bz4491 (~44bf9e36@webchat.bzflag.bz) |
| 21:54.07 | DTRemenak | hm, 40 hours a week, four weeks per month, $6.50 an hour...at minimum wage a T1 would consume more than half of your wages, before tax :) basically you'd be working all the time, and have no money |
| 21:54.11 | *** join/#bzflag Inferno (~44bf9e36@webchat.bzflag.bz) |
| 21:54.53 | DTRemenak | and that's assuming you don't have to pay rent or food either |
| 21:55.20 | Inferno | Hello |
| 21:55.30 | CBG | Hello Inferno, welcome to #bzflag |
| 21:55.43 | Inferno | thinks |
| 21:55.56 | Inferno | I mean thanks |
| 21:56.34 | orchid | ~seen Arauko |
| 21:56.45 | ibot | arauko <~arauko@200.90.54.227> was last seen on IRC in channel #debian, 294d 17h 16m 33s ago, saying: 'ok, thanks'. |
| 21:57.00 | CBG | lol. almolst a year ago :D |
| 21:57.36 | Lord_Sarpedon | dammit! |
| 21:57.48 | Lord_Sarpedon | client egneration still disabled |
| 21:58.00 | Lord_Sarpedon | LDFLAGS="-L/usr/lib/GL -lGL" CPPFLAGS="-I/usr/include/GL" ./configure |
| 21:58.53 | DTRemenak | have you added -lpthread yet, like brlcad recommended two hours ago? |
| 21:59.11 | Lord_Sarpedon | I did...then I got an error of "C compiler cannot egnerate executables" |
| 21:59.19 | Lord_Sarpedon | without, configure (mostly) works |
| 22:00.09 | Lord_Sarpedon | ....tried pthread again, still no client |
| 22:00.35 | DTRemenak | hm |
| 22:02.50 | CBG | so, can you get a server for a few hundred quid? |
| 22:02.57 | *** join/#bzflag Inferno (~44bf9e36@webchat.bzflag.bz) |
| 22:03.31 | CBG | so, can you get a server for a few hundred quid? |
| 22:03.38 | JeffM2501 | we saw you the first time |
| 22:03.41 | JeffM2501 | you don't have to repeat |
| 22:03.44 | CBG | lol. sorry |
| 22:03.56 | JeffM2501 | you'd have to check ISps in your area |
| 22:04.21 | JeffM2501 | if you are seriouysly looking into web work as a job, then knowing aobut colo systems and remote access is a big part of that. |
| 22:04.42 | brlcad | Lord_Sarpedon: where is your GL lib? /usr/lib or /usr/X11R6/lib or /usr/X11/lib ? |
| 22:04.45 | CBG | knowing about what whats? |
| 22:04.57 | JeffM2501 | colocation systems |
| 22:05.01 | JeffM2501 | and remote access to them |
| 22:05.08 | brlcad | Lord_Sarpedon: er, GL lib dir .. the GL dir itself that contains a libGL.so |
| 22:05.11 | JeffM2501 | web design is more then just making HTML :) |
| 22:05.17 | JeffM2501 | you gota know the backend too |
| 22:05.22 | CBG | ok... im lost |
| 22:05.30 | Tupone | ~pastebin |
| 22:05.31 | ibot | i heard pastebin is a place to paste your stuff without flooding the channel - try http://pastebin.ca |
| 22:05.34 | CBG | ill lookm into it after my non-web design exams |
| 22:05.41 | JeffM2501 | then you probalby need to learn about more about computers. |
| 22:05.47 | brlcad | Lord_Sarpedon: -I/usr/include/GL is wrong too |
| 22:06.04 | CBG | would you belive, the GCSE ICT course teaches, that to make a web site, you make it in word, then save as .htm... wtf? lol |
| 22:06.06 | Tupone | Lord_Sarpedon: get the config.log and use pastebin |
| 22:06.17 | brlcad | Lord_Sarpedon: the header will be GL/gl.h so if it's in /usr/include, that's all you include too |
| 22:06.20 | JeffM2501 | most schools are stupid |
| 22:06.20 | CBG | yeah, i know very little about computers... |
| 22:06.27 | Lord_Sarpedon | o |
| 22:06.29 | CBG | my school is plain dumb. |
| 22:06.36 | JeffM2501 | learn on your own |
| 22:06.41 | brlcad | if -lpthread failed, I'd be curious as to why -- the answer is in your config.log file |
| 22:06.43 | CBG | im always on amac, so I just point, click and voila.... |
| 22:06.59 | Lord_Sarpedon | sorry sorry I was busy |
| 22:07.04 | CBG | Jeff: How do you think I learnt HTML, CSS... |
| 22:07.04 | JeffM2501 | the real world isn't all point and click |
| 22:07.23 | Lord_Sarpedon | I had a capitalization error in -lpthread, so I got client gen working |
| 22:07.32 | JeffM2501 | huzzah! |
| 22:07.40 | Lord_Sarpedon | my current config is LDFLAGS="-L/usr/lib/GL -lpthread -lGL" CPPFLAGS="-I/usr/include/GL" ./configure |
| 22:08.00 | Lord_Sarpedon | libGl and gl.h are in those directories |
| 22:08.24 | brlcad | get rid of CPPFLAGS |
| 22:08.35 | Lord_Sarpedon | alright |
| 22:09.06 | Lord_Sarpedon | the gl lib im looking for might be in /usr/X11R6/lib... |
| 22:09.39 | brlcad | you may have multiples, which can be a problem -- especially if you've installed the nvidia drivers |
| 22:09.43 | Lord_Sarpedon | but the only GL in there is libGLw |
| 22:09.53 | Lord_Sarpedon | I have the ATI drivers |
| 22:10.06 | *** join/#bzflag DTRemenak_lap (~DTRemenak@mystic.caltech.edu) |
| 22:10.19 | brlcad | okay, regardless, what does configure do with ./configure LDFLAGS="-L/usr/lib/GL -lpthread -lGL"? |
| 22:10.33 | brlcad | :) |
| 22:10.38 | Lord_Sarpedon | testing |
| 22:10.47 | CBG | yeah |
| 22:11.08 | JeffM2501 | dude your lap is laggy |
| 22:11.40 | Lord_Sarpedon | client enabled, but I might have an SDL error in make like I did earlier |
| 22:11.59 | *** join/#bzflag CBG (~CannonBal@cpc3-stme1-5-0-cust91.cdif.cable.ntl.com) |
| 22:12.07 | CBG | sorry, lost my connection.... |
| 22:12.09 | DTRemenak_lap | hm, apparently ":)" is not a recognized ctcp command, brlcad :) |
| 22:12.15 | spldart | <PROTECTED> |
| 22:12.39 | Lord_Sarpedon | im getting this and a few others like it /usr/lib/libSDL.a(SDL_fbevents.o)(.text+0x1088): In function `FB_OpenMouse': |
| 22:12.39 | Lord_Sarpedon | : undefined reference to `__ctype_b' |
| 22:15.11 | CBG | brb |
| 22:16.15 | *** join/#bzflag CBG (~CannonBal@cpc3-stme1-5-0-cust91.cdif.cable.ntl.com) |
| 22:16.17 | CBG | back. |
| 22:17.22 | CBG | If I want to buy a small server, what do I serch for on Froogle? |
| 22:17.50 | spldart | ? |
| 22:18.23 | CBG | What would a shop call a server? |
| 22:18.31 | Lord_Sarpedon | "server" |
| 22:18.33 | CBG | Is it just a server? or a Web Server? |
| 22:18.41 | CBG | ok. |
| 22:18.44 | spldart | A machine to run bzfs on? |
| 22:18.56 | CBG | not especially... but yeah, i guess. |
| 22:19.08 | Lord_Sarpedon | try "computer" |
| 22:19.11 | Lord_Sarpedon | Heh. |
| 22:19.14 | spldart | what other than bzfs then? |
| 22:19.21 | spldart | bzfs requires VERY little power to run |
| 22:19.34 | CBG | Websites? |
| 22:19.53 | CBG | But im just looking out of interest... |
| 22:19.59 | Lord_Sarpedon | You would probably want a small Linux box |
| 22:20.03 | spldart | I host my homepage/website, run bzfs, and router firewall duties on an old socket 7 machine clocking along in the high 400 mhz range |
| 22:20.11 | CBG | and 'Server' keeps bringing up Print Servers. |
| 22:20.23 | Lord_Sarpedon | Basically, you need a computer |
| 22:20.34 | Lord_Sarpedon | One with a hefty pipe as you were discussing earlier |
| 22:20.40 | DTRemenak_lap | I run web, ftp, bzfs, and ssh all off of a K6-233. You don't need much power at all. |
| 22:20.51 | spldart | The first thing you need to do is decide EVERYTHING the machine needs to be able to do for you. |
| 22:21.20 | spldart | Mines a K6-2 500 but underclocked cuz the hot shuttle mobo isn't super 7 |
| 22:21.55 | Lord_Sarpedon | I could do a lot with this box if I had a fast net... |
| 22:21.57 | CBG | spldart: im just looking to see how much I can get for what price... |
| 22:22.00 | Lord_Sarpedon | and cash ;) |
| 22:22.19 | Lord_Sarpedon | Where would you put it? |
| 22:22.24 | Lord_Sarpedon | Your home or colocate? |
| 22:22.31 | CBG | I found this: Linksys Network Storage Link NSLU2 - Network storage server |
| 22:22.38 | Lord_Sarpedon | Not that |
| 22:22.46 | spldart | You could almost by an old machine for 100 bux and set it next to your personal pc then switch the montior over to it when you have to config something then switch it back ;) |
| 22:22.51 | spldart | If you don't mind going ghetto |
| 22:23.15 | Lord_Sarpedon | spldart: the issue here would be a net connection, and if colocating wouldn't he need a rack case? |
| 22:23.16 | DTRemenak_lap | mine runs headless just fine |
| 22:23.16 | CBG | What do you look for in a server? |
| 22:23.22 | CBG | Storage? right? |
| 22:23.37 | DTRemenak_lap | that's not the question. the question is, what do YOU look for in a server? |
| 22:23.42 | CBG | lol... |
| 22:23.44 | DTRemenak_lap | servers serve all sorts of stuff |
| 22:23.49 | brlcad | I look for dust bunnies |
| 22:23.54 | CBG | A server is just like a hard drive, right? |
| 22:24.06 | DTRemenak_lap | uhh, no. It's a computer. |
| 22:24.20 | spldart | What do YOU want it to do for YOU? |
| 22:24.28 | CBG | Nothing..... |
| 22:24.35 | Lord_Sarpedon | Then I wouldn;t buy it |
| 22:24.39 | CBG | Im just looking to see what you can get and what it would cost... |
| 22:24.49 | Lord_Sarpedon | Analogy.... |
| 22:24.56 | *** join/#bzflag brad2901 (bzbot@ACC8B3BB.ipt.aol.com) |
| 22:24.56 | DTRemenak_lap | what it would cost depends on what you want it to do |
| 22:24.56 | spldart | It's hard to price then... Between 10 bux and 10,000 |
| 22:24.58 | spldart | hehehe |
| 22:25.08 | Lord_Sarpedon | In order to know how much a toaster costs, you have to know what kind of toaster and how big |
| 22:25.28 | Mr_Molez | how many kinds of toasters are there ? |
| 22:25.32 | brlcad | especiallly when your goal is to make toasted cheese sandwiches |
| 22:25.41 | Lord_Sarpedon | 255, last time I counted |
| 22:25.46 | CBG | Okay, how much for a server that holds 2GBs? |
| 22:26.08 | spldart | guh |
| 22:26.11 | Lord_Sarpedon | Processor? Ram? Mobo? Net connection? |
| 22:26.15 | CBG | Lord: But, if I was looking to buy a toaster, I would just look through the Argos catalogue... :P |
| 22:26.15 | DTRemenak_lap | if you're looking for a car, you can get a lambroghini, or a semi, or a 20-year-old honda |
| 22:26.20 | brlcad | i'll sell you one along with some florida ocean property for $100 |
| 22:26.20 | Lord_Sarpedon | And 2Gigs is not much at all |
| 22:26.21 | Mr_Molez | there is nothing better than to take time out once a month to check the latest edition of toasters :p |
| 22:26.25 | CBG | 2gb storage |
| 22:26.25 | DTRemenak_lap | depending on what you want to DO with it |
| 22:26.38 | orchid | you dont want a toaster for toasted cheese sandwiches, you want a George Foreman grill |
| 22:26.52 | spldart | It sounds like your trying to buy some webspace :confused: |
| 22:26.53 | CBG | orchid has a valid point.... |
| 22:26.55 | Lord_Sarpedon | You also need a toaster for toasting your toast |
| 22:27.05 | CBG | I am not trying to buy anything |
| 22:27.06 | Mr_Molez | you dont toast toast |
| 22:27.06 | spldart | LOL |
| 22:27.09 | wegstar | heh |
| 22:27.12 | Mr_Molez | that is a waste of time |
| 22:27.13 | Mr_Molez | :p |
| 22:27.13 | spldart | MELBA! |
| 22:27.15 | CBG | I just want an idea of waht a server costs.... |
| 22:27.19 | Lord_Sarpedon | Maybe you don't |
| 22:27.20 | brlcad | DTRemenak_lap: what about a 20-year old thing that is semi-lamborghini? |
| 22:27.24 | *** join/#bzflag cosmos (~cosmos@valentino.hepcat.org) |
| 22:27.28 | brlcad | like a yugo |
| 22:27.32 | Inferno | try $700 a server |
| 22:27.44 | CBG | what will this $700 server do? |
| 22:27.45 | Mr_Molez | what about the bread for the toaster ? |
| 22:27.52 | Lord_Sarpedon | CBG: Do you know what a server is? |
| 22:27.56 | CBG | Yes. |
| 22:27.56 | brlcad | mm.. george is on to something there |
| 22:27.59 | brlcad | i mean orchid |
| 22:28.00 | DTRemenak_lap | CBG: I got mine for free. My boss paid 15 grand for his. |
| 22:28.11 | Inferno | suuuuuure |
| 22:28.12 | Lord_Sarpedon | Okay, what's a server CBG? |
| 22:28.26 | Lord_Sarpedon | DTRemenak: Just like a boss, hmmm? |
| 22:28.48 | wegstar | ... |
| 22:28.49 | CBG | € A server is a fancy name for a computer that's hooked up to a network |
| 22:28.53 | CBG | :P |
| 22:29.01 | Mr_Molez | heh |
| 22:29.06 | CBG | Servers send files across the network |
| 22:29.08 | brlcad | DTRemenak_lap: your boss paid 15 grand for you? :) |
| 22:29.16 | DTRemenak_lap | brlcad: hahaha |
| 22:29.16 | CBG | no. for his. |
| 22:29.22 | Mr_Molez | not necessarily |
| 22:29.32 | Inferno | I'll sell a server for $2 |
| 22:29.40 | CBG | ok |
| 22:29.42 | CBG | what about this: |
| 22:29.59 | wegstar | i'll take it |
| 22:29.59 | Inferno | we have lots of trashy comps |
| 22:30.04 | Lord_Sarpedon | For those who care: /usr/lib/libSDL.a(SDL_fbevents.o)(.text+0x1088): In function `FB_OpenMouse' undefined reference to `__ctype_b' |
| 22:30.10 | CBG | € A computer on a network that is dedicated to a particular purpose and which stores all information and performs the critical functions for that purpose. |
| 22:30.14 | Lord_Sarpedon | Little help? |
| 22:30.20 | CBG | For example, a Web server would store all files related to a Web site and perform all work necessary for hosting the Web site. |
| 22:30.26 | wegstar | a computer that serves :P |
| 22:30.28 | CBG | Most congressional offices have at least one server that is dedicated as both a network server and a file server. |
| 22:30.33 | Lord_Sarpedon | Wow. That is so generic |
| 22:30.34 | Inferno | a server serves information |
| 22:30.38 | CBG | This means that, in it's network server role, the computer is responsible for holding the files and managing the processes that enable everyone in the office to access and use the network. |
| 22:30.47 | CBG | In it's file server role, it holds the central computer files and the CMS database. Back to top |
| 22:30.54 | wegstar | heh |
| 22:30.54 | Lord_Sarpedon | LOL |
| 22:30.57 | wegstar | "Back to top.." |
| 22:31.03 | CBG | hehe |
| 22:31.04 | Lord_Sarpedon | Back to top? I hope you didn't copy and paste |
| 22:31.05 | wegstar | *click* |
| 22:31.08 | CBG | try this |
| 22:31.15 | CBG | go to google |
| 22:31.22 | Lord_Sarpedon | no, im fine thanks |
| 22:31.23 | CBG | and search for "define:server" |
| 22:31.33 | wegstar | heh... no need... |
| 22:31.41 | Lord_Sarpedon | wegstar: no kidding |
| 22:31.46 | DTRemenak_lap | CBG: WE know what a server is. YOU don't seem to get it. |
| 22:31.53 | CBG | Look |
| 22:31.54 | Lord_Sarpedon | CBG: A server is a regular computer |
| 22:31.59 | CBG | I know that when I edit my site |
| 22:31.59 | wegstar | just a simple def. -> a computer that serves information. |
| 22:32.03 | wegstar | that's all to it |
| 22:32.03 | CBG | I send the new file to the server |
| 22:32.09 | SportyGal | ~seen Nidhoggr |
| 22:32.11 | ibot | nidhoggr is currently on #bzflag (1h 31m 1s) |
| 22:32.14 | Inferno | we bought computer parts and put them together, It's cheaper that way. onyl $1500 |
| 22:32.17 | CBG | the files on the server are accesible via my domain |
| 22:32.44 | Inferno | it has like 1 g of ram and stuff |
| 22:33.12 | Lord_Sarpedon | Look, a server is just a computer. It has a program such as Apache or bzfs or ircd that talks to other computers. Got it? |
| 22:33.16 | Lord_Sarpedon | Simple as it goes |
| 22:33.35 | CBG | yea |
| 22:33.41 | Lord_Sarpedon | ~seen My dog fluffy? |
| 22:33.42 | ibot | Lord_Sarpedon: i haven't seen 'my dog fluffy' |
| 22:33.42 | CBG | i know what a server is |
| 22:33.50 | spldart | Your not referring to mobo's classified as server/workstations are you CBG |
| 22:33.58 | Inferno | STOP ARGUING |
| 22:34.06 | CBG | spldart, What?? |
| 22:34.07 | Lord_Sarpedon | lol |
| 22:34.07 | DTRemenak_lap | CBG: so then you know that it's so broad that you can't "get an idea of what it costs |
| 22:34.20 | Lord_Sarpedon | Ok ok...I have an sdl issue here |
| 22:34.47 | DTRemenak_lap | Lord_Sarpedon: that's not enough information to help you. |
| 22:34.53 | spldart | There are motherboards and machines that are classified as server/workstations by the manufacturers |
| 22:35.00 | Lord_Sarpedon | any tips? undefined references in libSDL.a |
| 22:35.01 | CBG | DTR: look, if you went out and bought a small, cheap server, what would that cost closer to, $100, $300 $500 $1000 or more? |
| 22:35.06 | Lord_Sarpedon | Specific version I need? |
| 22:35.13 | spldart | I run one for my desktop cuz I need outragerous computational power. |
| 22:35.17 | spldart | at home |
| 22:35.23 | Lord_Sarpedon | DT:Remenak: Getting to that :P |
| 22:35.28 | DTRemenak_lap | CBG: new or used? |
| 22:35.33 | CBG | new |
| 22:35.45 | DTRemenak_lap | probably about $300 or so minimum |
| 22:35.55 | Inferno | yeah |
| 22:36.01 | Inferno | unless it was from me |
| 22:36.06 | Lord_Sarpedon | Got to know how to run it as well |
| 22:36.13 | CBG | DTR: thanks. |
| 22:36.22 | CBG | Why did it take so long to get that answer? |
| 22:36.32 | DTRemenak_lap | CBG: because your question was not well defined |
| 22:36.36 | Lord_Sarpedon | Because your question was vague and poorly constructed |
| 22:36.41 | Inferno | well, we bought a quality server for $700 |
| 22:36.51 | DTRemenak_lap | you did not ask "what would a basic, cheap, new server cost", you asked "what would a server cost" |
| 22:36.59 | CBG | well. sorry. |
| 22:37.06 | CBG | Ill be less vague next time |
| 22:37.16 | DTRemenak_lap | if you wanted a database server for 10000 users, $300 wouldn't go very far |
| 22:37.19 | CBG | no wait, next time ill try #computergeeks |
| 22:37.25 | CBG | DTRemenak_: if you wanted a database server for 10000 users, $300 wouldn't go very far |
| 22:37.29 | CBG | oopps |
| 22:37.46 | CBG | i meant: I dont want a server for 10000 users |
| 22:37.58 | DTRemenak_lap | CBG: right, but you DIDN'T TELL US THAT |
| 22:37.58 | orchid | CBG: then say so :) |
| 22:38.09 | Lord_Sarpedon | Ok, CBG |
| 22:38.19 | spldart | I did ask what you wanted to do with it. |
| 22:38.24 | Lord_Sarpedon | how about this: Go download some open source server software and see how it works |
| 22:38.31 | CBG | ok... |
| 22:38.50 | Lord_Sarpedon | if you can't figure it out, then perhaps its not worth buying a server to run the software |
| 22:38.55 | CBG | Lorde: open source softwar for waht? |
| 22:39.03 | Lord_Sarpedon | For example, you wanted to run a bzflag server right? |
| 22:39.08 | CBG | Im Not GOing TO Buy a Server!!! |
| 22:39.13 | CBG | sheesh |
| 22:39.13 | Lord_Sarpedon | bzfs is included with the download |
| 22:39.20 | Lord_Sarpedon | Ok that's nice |
| 22:39.22 | spldart | lol |
| 22:39.26 | wegstar | :) |
| 22:39.32 | CBG | i wish i never brought this up, ya'll just ganing up on me. |
| 22:39.40 | CBG | *ganging |
| 22:39.42 | Lord_Sarpedon | Like flies on shit? |
| 22:39.54 | DTRemenak_lap | Lord_Sarpedon: watch your language and be polite. |
| 22:40.05 | Lord_Sarpedon | Sorry, but once you get to a point... |
| 22:40.19 | CBG | lol :P |
| 22:41.06 | spldart | LMAO |
| 22:41.15 | spldart | :-x |
| 22:41.45 | Lord_Sarpedon | What sdl version for bzf? 1.0 or 1.2? |
| 22:42.04 | DTRemenak_lap | Lord_Sarpedon: 1.2.5 or later |
| 22:42.11 | Lord_Sarpedon | thanks |
| 22:42.12 | SportyGal | JeffM2501: question for you - I saw cosmos had set his server to only allow globally registered players to talk. Is it possible to make the setting one where they could only talk on the admin channel (for questions and such) but not in public, pm, or teamchat? |
| 22:42.32 | cosmos | no |
| 22:42.37 | cosmos | unfortunately |
| 22:42.57 | cosmos | not without some new code |
| 22:43.38 | cosmos | who is High Karate Kitty and why were they spamming us with racist garbage . damn these people |
| 22:44.08 | DTRemenak_lap | TALK should probably split into PUBLICTALK, PRIVATETALK, TEAMTALK |
| 22:44.30 | DTRemenak_lap | and ADMINMESSAGESEND, which is already there |
| 22:44.50 | CBG | Processor |
| 22:44.53 | CBG | Single 2.0GHz PowerPC G5 |
| 22:44.58 | *** join/#bzflag blast007 (~blast007@24-196-92-143.jvl.wi.charter.com) |
| 22:45.02 | CBG | Frontside bus |
| 22:45.02 | CBG | 1GHz |
| 22:45.10 | CBG | On-chip L2 cache |
| 22:45.10 | CBG | 512K per processor |
| 22:45.19 | DTRemenak_lap | CBG: don't pasteflood here please |
| 22:45.20 | CBG | CC memory |
| 22:45.20 | CBG | 1GB, 8GB Maximum |
| 22:45.23 | CBG | ok. sorry |
| 22:45.24 | DTRemenak_lap | send a URL if you want |
| 22:45.24 | Lord_Sarpedon | could you post a link instead? |
| 22:45.28 | CBG | no |
| 22:45.30 | CBG | lol |
| 22:45.41 | CBG | sorry - but can i post a few more things |
| 22:45.43 | DTRemenak_lap | or summarize on one line |
| 22:45.50 | CBG | i want to know if its a good server.... |
| 22:45.51 | blast007 | or http://pastebin.ca |
| 22:45.58 | CBG | wait |
| 22:46.07 | CBG | ill use textedit to put it in one line |
| 22:46.08 | CBG | brb |
| 22:46.18 | blast007 | CBG: I run a server on a Pentium 133MHz with 32MB of RAM :P |
| 22:46.22 | brlcad | yes, let's have you paste it yet again |
| 22:46.23 | spldart | All the ole school guru's in here have grey hairs right? |
| 22:46.37 | spldart | hehe |
| 22:46.42 | DTRemenak_lap | spldart: hm? |
| 22:46.43 | brlcad | hey, leave my grey hair out of this |
| 22:47.10 | cosmos | my server runs on a 20mhz machine |
| 22:47.30 | spldart | I've been kinda hanging here for a bit and can only imagine the frustration some of you have experienced. |
| 22:47.31 | cosmos | DT: anyone over 25 |
| 22:47.45 | spldart | Not talking real but cyber grey |
| 22:47.59 | spldart | Or maybe cyber bald from pulling your hair out |
| 22:48.00 | spldart | hehe |
| 22:48.20 | Lord_Sarpedon | lol...doesn't look like im getting hardware accel |
| 22:48.22 | cosmos | <rael> dude if you were born before like 1984 you are really really old |
| 22:48.34 | DTRemenak_lap | spldart: in that case, your question is irrelevant. guruness implies experience implies "grey hair syndrome" |
| 22:48.41 | CBG | ahh |
| 22:48.49 | CBG | now its too much text to paste :( |
| 22:49.09 | DTRemenak_lap | CBG, that's why I said "summarize" only put in the important stuff |
| 22:49.21 | CBG | ill be honest, im not sure what is |
| 22:49.26 | blast007 | then put it in pastebin.ca if you need to tell us everything about the server |
| 22:49.29 | spldart | 1984??? |
| 22:49.34 | spldart | Then I'm an antique |
| 22:49.37 | CBG | Processor:Single 2.0GHz PowerPC G5, Frontside bus:1GHz, On-chip L2 cache:512K per processor, ECC memory:1GB, 8GB Maximum, Hot-plug storage:One 80GB Serial ATA Apple Drive Module; support for up to 1.2TB (2) in three drive bays, |
| 22:49.37 | spldart | :( |
| 22:49.44 | CBG | I/O connectivity:Two built-in Gigabit Ethernet interfaces (10/100/1000 BASE-T RJ-45); two FireWire 800, one FireWire 400, two USB 2.0, one DB-9 (RS-232) serial port |
| 22:49.49 | CBG | there. :D |
| 22:50.21 | spldart | I've seen JeffM struggle with two peeps in the last week that really would drive anyone to drink. heh |
| 22:50.28 | DTRemenak_lap | CBG: "good" in what sense? what would be the intended use? |
| 22:50.39 | Lord_Sarpedon | ummm...anyone know why I don't get any hardware accel on my ati card? |
| 22:50.49 | CBG | Dunno... is it worth $4000? |
| 22:51.03 | DTRemenak_lap | probably not, since it's Apple ;) |
| 22:51.16 | Lord_Sarpedon | I got hardware accel elsewhere, but not bzflag |
| 22:51.36 | spldart | :dunno: my ati's seem to accell ok |
| 22:51.37 | CBG | ~slap DTRemenak |
| 22:51.39 | ibot | ACTION slaps DTRemenak, keep your grubby fingers to yourself! |
| 22:51.50 | Lord_Sarpedon | spldart: using the ati drivers? |
| 22:51.56 | spldart | yeah |
| 22:52.04 | CBG | just looking at the specs, forget its apple... |
| 22:52.19 | spldart | 9800 pro aiw and 7500 aiw |
| 22:52.20 | Lord_Sarpedon | me too...perhaps there's a different gl lib somewhere |
| 22:52.45 | Lord_Sarpedon | x800 pro, running at what seems to be 10fps |
| 22:53.22 | spldart | EEK |
| 22:53.30 | *** join/#bzflag nixdepp (~Miranda@p508565F3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 22:53.38 | CBG | Hello nixdepp, welcome |
| 22:53.45 | nixdepp | hi |
| 22:53.49 | Lord_Sarpedon | aaaHA! |
| 22:53.50 | nixdepp | cosmos here? |
| 22:53.51 | spldart | almost all my ati and nvidia cards are on xp pro |
| 22:53.53 | spldart | one on 98 |
| 22:53.55 | cosmos | yeah whats up |
| 22:53.56 | DTRemenak | CBG: you know anything about economics? |
| 22:54.03 | Lord_Sarpedon | I linked with the wrong gl |
| 22:54.07 | CBG | DTR - im 16. |
| 22:54.07 | nixdepp | again probs with a racist |
| 22:54.08 | DTRemenak | if it's priced at that, it's worth that to someone |
| 22:54.17 | cosmos | who now |
| 22:54.18 | nixdepp | seems gone now |
| 22:54.22 | CBG | Okay... |
| 22:54.30 | nixdepp | the poll didnt work on hepcat, cu |
| 22:54.35 | CBG | Can you tell me what is important out of what I pasted? |
| 22:54.39 | DTRemenak | the market dictates the price (in general) |
| 22:54.53 | DTRemenak | important for what use? |
| 22:54.53 | cosmos | nixdepp |
| 22:54.57 | cosmos | who was it |
| 22:55.04 | Lord_Sarpedon | found it! The gl I needed was in a different dir |
| 22:55.04 | nixdepp | High ... |
| 22:55.12 | CBG | As a web server... |
| 22:55.13 | SportyGal | cosmos, there is someone trolling and impersonating the REAL High Karate Kitty |
| 22:55.13 | Lord_Sarpedon | How do I make sure it links with the one I want? |
| 22:55.28 | nixdepp | constantly changing his nick |
| 22:55.33 | SportyGal | the real one is on ph.ph.cox.net. The troll is on georgia.montebellopartners.com, fyi. |
| 22:55.39 | cosmos | ok |
| 22:56.03 | DTRemenak | CBG: what kind of web server? for just static pages, the storage and memory is all that's important. dynamic pages (php and so on) will want processor power |
| 22:56.03 | cosmos | its almost time for a whitelist only server |
| 22:56.18 | brlcad | that's a good way to kill your userbase :) |
| 22:56.23 | brlcad | no new users |
| 22:56.34 | CBG | For a site that has a bit of everything... a completely 'average' site... |
| 22:56.37 | DTRemenak | CBG: ultimately most everything will be limited by bandwidth though. a system like that is overkill for all but the fastest connections. |
| 22:56.43 | SportyGal | cosmos, was the troll talking on your site? I thought only globally registered players could |
| 22:56.50 | cosmos | i relaxed it a bit |
| 22:56.54 | cosmos | guess i made a mistake |
| 22:56.57 | cosmos | back to the iron fist |
| 22:57.05 | brlcad | cosmos: more admin control -- what's the problems right now? |
| 22:57.06 | CBG | so, from that apple server, its the ECC memory thats important to me? |
| 22:57.07 | DTRemenak | ~iron fist++ |
| 22:57.24 | cosmos | brlcad, racist spammers etc |
| 22:57.37 | cosmos | seem to be impersonating admins across the servers now |
| 22:57.41 | DTRemenak | CBG: storage is probably more important |
| 22:57.56 | brlcad | cosmos: add the racist remarks to a custom filter file? |
| 22:58.17 | cosmos | i would have to add the entire english language to the filter |
| 22:58.17 | CBG | It doesnt say "Storage: xxx"... |
| 22:58.23 | cosmos | they just keep changing the crap they spew |
| 22:58.29 | DTRemenak | no, there's an adjective in front of storage |
| 22:58.36 | DTRemenak | just like there's an adjective in front of memory |
| 22:58.53 | CBG | DUH |
| 22:58.56 | CBG | diddnt see it |
| 22:58.57 | brlcad | hrmph.. i did have a rate-limiting chat filter working a while back |
| 22:59.05 | CBG | so it has 80gb... |
| 22:59.07 | cosmos | we still need the code that makes the offenders computer explode in their face |
| 22:59.11 | DTRemenak | CBG: right |
| 22:59.17 | DTRemenak | which is probably overkill |
| 22:59.24 | DTRemenak | a gig of ram is also overkill |
| 22:59.30 | brlcad | you couldn't spam more than some rate without getting warned/kicked |
| 22:59.31 | DTRemenak | so is 2ghz of processor power |
| 22:59.39 | CBG | overkill? |
| 23:00.01 | Lord_Sarpedon | CBG: Think of a Ferrari in a school zone |
| 23:00.08 | DTRemenak | yeah...like, you'll only use a tiny fraction of that before you flood just about any bandwidth you can get |
| 23:00.12 | Lord_Sarpedon | Your Server is a car, bandwidth is the speed limit |
| 23:00.25 | CBG | oh... |
| 23:00.31 | DTRemenak | that server could probably flood a T3 |
| 23:00.36 | DTRemenak | and not flinch |
| 23:00.39 | CBG | so the server is too good for the connection? |
| 23:00.39 | cosmos | heh i love it when they put a quad cpu with 4gb of ram on a dsl line and complain bzflag server is laggy |
| 23:00.47 | Lord_Sarpedon | Moral of the story: Buy a Honda and some donuts |
| 23:00.48 | CBG | so, its massive...... |
| 23:00.51 | brlcad | the spamming is easy enough to detect -- heck could keep a counter of the last 100 things people say and if they repeat more than N times per M seconds, you warn -- after K warnings, they're kicked.. |
| 23:01.03 | Lord_Sarpedon | Here's an idea.... |
| 23:01.08 | DTRemenak | CBG: ever hear of bottlenecks? |
| 23:01.21 | DTRemenak | bandwidth is the bottleneck for almost ANYTHING over the internet |
| 23:01.22 | CBG | in what context? |
| 23:01.31 | CBG | oh. right |
| 23:01.32 | Lord_Sarpedon | How about a simple scripting engine with some server events, like when someone talks |
| 23:01.32 | CBG | ok |
| 23:01.39 | brlcad | cosmos: how does something liek that sound? |
| 23:01.42 | Lord_Sarpedon | There's gotta be an OSS jscript implementation somewhere |
| 23:01.54 | CBG | so, a goiod connection is the answer to life, the universe and everything |
| 23:01.57 | CBG | NOT 42 |
| 23:02.02 | Lord_Sarpedon | :) |
| 23:02.22 | CBG | unless, 42 is how many terabgyutes the perfect connection should have |
| 23:02.32 | CBG | *terabytes |
| 23:02.34 | Lord_Sarpedon | Heres the thing, CBG |
| 23:02.58 | DTRemenak | yes, pretty much. I run a lot of stuff on my server...not because it's a good box (divide everything on your list by 10 and you get close), but because it's on a ten-megabit backbone connection |
| 23:03.08 | Lord_Sarpedon | If you had a T1 line...you could find a cheapo $300 coputer or build one from spare parts, and you would have a really nice bzflag server |
| 23:03.43 | CBG | so, there would be no point getting an old mac/pc, to set up as a server, unless i got a better connection... |
| 23:03.50 | DTRemenak | I can't flood my connection with that box, but I could build one for a couple hundred dollars and do it. |
| 23:04.37 | Lord_Sarpedon | Oh what is THIS |
| 23:04.46 | CBG | THIS ??? |
| 23:05.05 | Lord_Sarpedon | How can I force GCC to link with a certain libGL? |
| 23:05.18 | Lord_Sarpedon | I think its using the one in my X11 directory |
| 23:05.18 | spldart | Catcha laters I'm heading home |
| 23:05.23 | Lord_Sarpedon | Cya |
| 23:05.23 | *** part/#bzflag spldart (~james@adsl-70-240-176-45.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net) |
| 23:05.24 | CBG | ok. thanks all |
| 23:05.27 | DTRemenak | Lord_Sarpedon: delete the other one ;) |
| 23:05.33 | Lord_Sarpedon | lol |
| 23:05.34 | DTRemenak | just kidding, i wouldn't do that if I were you |
| 23:05.43 | CBG | so |
| 23:05.46 | CBG | good night all |
| 23:05.48 | Lord_Sarpedon | Seriously tho |
| 23:05.54 | *** join/#bzflag doughecka1 (~Doug@adsl-18-72-14.sdf.bellsouth.net) |
| 23:06.19 | DTRemenak | Lord_Sarpedon: change the order of the library paths |
| 23:06.48 | DTRemenak | it'll try to link to the first one it can find, iirc |
| 23:07.19 | Lord_Sarpedon | the one I want was first, but still no hardware accel |
| 23:07.58 | DTRemenak | Lord_Sarpedon: not that I know much about hw accel on linux, but I don't think it matters which one it links to |
| 23:08.09 | DTRemenak | unless you're doing a static build, of course |
| 23:08.31 | Lord_Sarpedon | I should be getting mad fps...but closer to 3 |
| 23:08.55 | DTRemenak | hmm, going into hibernation should have forced my lap off like 20 minutes ago. oh well. |
| 23:10.01 | DTRemenak | Lord_Sarpedon: right...but take a counterexample. The RPM we distribute is compiled on an nvidia system, yet it runs accelerated on ATi systems, when the ATi drivers are installed correctly. |
| 23:10.11 | Lord_Sarpedon | true |
| 23:10.20 | Lord_Sarpedon | perhaps there is an option I am missing |
| 23:10.28 | Lord_Sarpedon | in bzflag? |
| 23:10.32 | DTRemenak | do other games run accelerated? |
| 23:10.44 | Lord_Sarpedon | yes, ut2004, tuxracer... |
| 23:10.55 | DTRemenak | ok, then you're having a wierd problem :P |
| 23:11.25 | Lord_Sarpedon | indeed |
| 23:11.25 | DTRemenak | I am unfortunately not qualified to help with wierd linux problems |
| 23:11.43 | Lord_Sarpedon | seems linke brlcad disappeared, sadly |
| 23:12.07 | Lord_Sarpedon | By the way, have you looked at my proposal in the my.bzflag.org forums? Under enhancements |
| 23:13.25 | DTRemenak | probably, I do read it. what topic? |
| 23:14.05 | DTRemenak | I can tell you why it's a bad idea, whatever it is :P ;) |
| 23:14.13 | Lord_Sarpedon | http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?t=3151 |
| 23:14.40 | Lord_Sarpedon | for some reason, firefox on linux is particularly touchy for me...crashes and temporary hangs |
| 23:14.47 | Lord_Sarpedon | Oh, I posted as Dameon1 |
| 23:14.54 | Lord_Sarpedon | Not the first one |
| 23:16.02 | DTRemenak | ok, there are a couple problems with that. first, if a client recieves one update from the server, the next from a superclient, and the next from the server, there will appear to be a tremendous amount of jitter |
| 23:16.30 | DTRemenak | since you'll have a lag variation of like 100ms, 400ms, 100ms |
| 23:16.40 | Lord_Sarpedon | But you see, for the most part, the updates will come directly from the server |
| 23:16.58 | DTRemenak | then what's the advantage, if the updates come from the server anyway? |
| 23:17.17 | Lord_Sarpedon | Well, since the superclients are always served first |
| 23:17.43 | Lord_Sarpedon | that means that the clients of the superclients might get an update from server or superclient first |
| 23:18.10 | DTRemenak | right. so if it switched between them, then there would be a shift in lag...jitter. |
| 23:18.15 | Lord_Sarpedon | it doesn't matter. The point is, the server can stop sending an update to save bandwidth |
| 23:18.55 | Lord_Sarpedon | So if 5 clients didn't get sent an update from the server, they will likely receive one from the superclient |
| 23:19.55 | DTRemenak | take this example: updates sent every 50 ms. client has four updates sent from the server, then two from the superclient, then four more from the server. Lag from client to server is 200ms, from client to superclient is 200ms, from superclient to server is 50ms. |
| 23:20.00 | Lord_Sarpedon | This method is restricted to things such as player movement and bullet firing. So it boils down to the server saving bandwidth for later, and the superclients being in place so a client would get something a little late rather than not atr all |
| 23:20.02 | DTRemenak | time 0: server sends update 1 |
| 23:20.08 | DTRemenak | time 50: server sends update 2 |
| 23:20.13 | DTRemenak | time 100: server sends update 3 |
| 23:20.19 | DTRemenak | time 150: server sends update 4: |
| 23:20.30 | DTRemenak | time 200: client recieves update 1, server sends update 4 |
| 23:20.40 | DTRemenak | err, update 5 |
| 23:21.09 | DTRemenak | time 250: client recieves update 2. superclient recieves update 5, forwards update 5 to client |
| 23:21.28 | *** join/#bzflag triclops (~triclops@c211-31-49-112.rivrw7.nsw.optusnet.com.au) |
| 23:21.39 | DTRemenak | time 300: client recieves update 3. superclient recieves & forwards update 6, server sends update 7 |
| 23:21.55 | DTRemenak | time 350: client recieves update 4. server sends update 8. |
| 23:22.24 | DTRemenak | time 400: server sends update 9. client gets nothing yet. |
| 23:22.41 | DTRemenak | time 450: server sends update 10. client gets update 5. |
| 23:23.19 | DTRemenak | time 500: client gets update 6 and 7 simultaneously. |
| 23:23.23 | DTRemenak | boom. problem. |
| 23:23.30 | Lord_Sarpedon | ahh, concerned of things being out of order? |
| 23:23.54 | DTRemenak | if the lag between the superclient and server had been 60 instead of 50, the client would have gotten 7 before 6 |
| 23:24.17 | DTRemenak | this is due to the effective 120ms jitter |
| 23:24.23 | Lord_Sarpedon | not a problem at all! Note that what is being sent is timestamped movement/fire/etc. The older one is discarded, the new one being perfectly capable of serving the client |
| 23:24.38 | DTRemenak | so then it skips one. |
| 23:24.52 | DTRemenak | so the tank jerks how far? 120ms jitter |
| 23:25.19 | Lord_Sarpedon | yes, true |
| 23:25.24 | DTRemenak | people start noticing jitter at about 50ms |
| 23:25.38 | DTRemenak | so your superclient would have a maximal 25ms lag, 0ms jitter |
| 23:25.55 | DTRemenak | I dare you to find a client like that :) |
| 23:26.22 | Lord_Sarpedon | Perhaps you are right |
| 23:26.44 | Lord_Sarpedon | However, there must be some other optimization to make a more distributed system work |
| 23:26.54 | DTRemenak | I'm on a trunk connection, in Pasadena, and get more than 50ms lag even to other servers in the LA basin |
| 23:27.13 | brlcad | DTRemenak is usually right |
| 23:27.20 | Lord_Sarpedon | Heh |
| 23:27.23 | brlcad | unless he's disagreeing with me, of course |
| 23:27.41 | DTRemenak | games are time-sensitive. any variance in lag really screws things up...a constant lag can be compensated for, a jittery lag can't |
| 23:27.43 | Chestal | if you just want to relay, multicast is best theoretically |
| 23:28.00 | Lord_Sarpedon | Ive spent a lot of thought trying to find a good P2P system for games |
| 23:28.01 | DTRemenak | multicast is great if you don't need an authoritative server |
| 23:28.01 | Chestal | earlier bz versions did this, but IP4 multicast just doesn't work on the internet |
| 23:29.15 | DTRemenak | what _would_ work, is a more conservative distributed server system. so you have an authoritative server, and a set of servers elsewhere with low lags to the central server, each of which is responsible for some subset of clients, which never switch between them. |
| 23:29.16 | Lord_Sarpedon | If you say constant lag could be accounted for, then route all traffic to a superclient then to a client |
| 23:29.20 | Lord_Sarpedon | Lol, just kidding |
| 23:30.06 | DTRemenak | essentially a distributed cluster...the server is responsible for updating 5 other servers, which are responsible for 5 clients each |
| 23:30.19 | Lord_Sarpedon | DT: I considered that |
| 23:30.21 | DTRemenak | that would work IF you had bandwidth problems and low latency |
| 23:30.25 | Chestal | DTRemenak: yes, but all you would achieve is to reduce the upstream of the playing bzfs server to some degrees |
| 23:30.30 | *** join/#bzflag Inferno (~44bf9e36@webchat.bzflag.bz) |
| 23:30.35 | DTRemenak | but mostly the problems are latency |
| 23:30.47 | Chestal | that#s not an issue for me, I want lower lag, but that is not to have |
| 23:31.15 | Lord_Sarpedon | As I said in my post, my system could compensate lag for increased players |
| 23:31.16 | DTRemenak | right...you'd end up with higher lags for everyone, with a higher supportable player count |
| 23:31.48 | Chestal | the latency is there, nothing we can really do about it |
| 23:32.05 | Lord_Sarpedon | I know...but I'm trying to squeeze every drop out of the bandwidth :P |
| 23:32.14 | DTRemenak | your system would generate jitter. make the client-superclient connection less transitive and that goes away, but you still get only a higher player count at the cost of higher lag. |
| 23:32.21 | Chestal | it can be reduced somewhat when peopel upgrae their networks, but we are not that far away from the hard limit |
| 23:32.29 | DTRemenak | and people want lower lag, not higher lag :) |
| 23:32.35 | orchid | what do other games do about lag, do they all lag like bzflag does? |
| 23:32.41 | DTRemenak | I'd rather play on small servers with low lag than big ones with high lag |
| 23:32.44 | Chestal | earth is too big, speed of light is too low |
| 23:32.54 | Chestal | orchid: differently |
| 23:32.59 | Lord_Sarpedon | Ah I see, DT |
| 23:33.04 | Lord_Sarpedon | if that's what people want |
| 23:33.12 | Chestal | you can try to 'hide# lag somewhat, but it#s really a payoff |
| 23:33.39 | Lord_Sarpedon | When I was looking thu the Bzflag source, I noticed the server sends all updates. Why isn't there a "relevant set" like in UT? |
| 23:33.40 | Chestal | I have no real clue what commercial games do, though |
| 23:33.45 | DTRemenak | Chestal: almost all of our current network latency is in routing and switching, not in the wire distance |
| 23:33.53 | Chestal | I have seen prediction, which causes other problems |
| 23:34.10 | Lord_Sarpedon | If you have played unreal tournament, you will see how ell lag is hidden |
| 23:34.17 | DTRemenak | Lord_Sarpedon: that's one thing brlcad was working on before he got distracted |
| 23:34.19 | Chestal | DTRemenak: well, worst case with ideal wires is 40000km roudn trip |
| 23:34.24 | Lord_Sarpedon | ? |
| 23:34.35 | DTRemenak | Lord_Sarpedon: not today, like a couple months ago :) |
| 23:34.42 | Chestal | that's 133ms at speed of light |
| 23:34.48 | DTRemenak | quenching...sending only updates which are close to the tank |
| 23:35.09 | Lord_Sarpedon | If I was a cpp coder, I would have done something by now |
| 23:35.20 | Lord_Sarpedon | I've been a .net guy, trying to move to mono |
| 23:35.59 | Lord_Sarpedon | In a revised version of my distributed server idea: |
| 23:36.04 | DTRemenak | Chestal: right. so I would expect a 150 or so to germany, but I get more like 250. and I'd expect near-zero to LA (30 mi), but I get more like 50 or 70. |
| 23:36.34 | Lord_Sarpedon | The server has a set of superclients, 4 maybe |
| 23:36.52 | Chestal | DTRemenak: yes, but I just want to point out that even weith much faster networks in the future, the lag issue is not going to go away |
| 23:37.01 | Lord_Sarpedon | These superclients are connected to every other superclient |
| 23:37.10 | DTRemenak | Chestal: I don't find 250 unplayable at all :) |
| 23:37.16 | Chestal | DTRemenak: I do :-) |
| 23:37.25 | Chestal | an uper limit of 50ms would be good |
| 23:37.28 | Chestal | that's barely noticable |
| 23:37.36 | DTRemenak | a quarter second is very easy to compensate |
| 23:37.38 | Chestal | but it#s impossibe to reach if we want to play world-wide |
| 23:37.43 | Lord_Sarpedon | Once again, each client is connected to a superclient and the server |
| 23:37.50 | DTRemenak | a tenth of a second is barely noticable |
| 23:38.03 | DTRemenak | 50ms is effectively zero :) |
| 23:38.18 | DTRemenak | at least with my reflexes ;) |
| 23:38.20 | Chestal | 100ms is noticable |
| 23:38.23 | Lord_Sarpedon | Each superclient is given a region of the map, so divide the map into quarters essentially |
| 23:39.04 | DTRemenak | oh, now that's an interesting idea |
| 23:39.24 | Lord_Sarpedon | So if Bob was moving from Zone 1 to Zone 2, he would do so quite easily. All his messages and such would be forwarded to the Zone to Superclient by the Zone 1 Superclient until he could connect to the Zone 2 superclient |
| 23:39.42 | DTRemenak | you only get a single frame of jitter moving between them. all you're left with is one additional route of lag in one direction |
| 23:40.03 | Lord_Sarpedon | The server connection that each regular client has would be reserved for game control messages like flag captures |
| 23:40.08 | DTRemenak | still adds to the lag though |
| 23:40.19 | Lord_Sarpedon | But you greatly increase server capacity |
| 23:40.32 | DTRemenak | provided your superclients are any good |
| 23:41.02 | DTRemenak | which is doubtful, actually |
| 23:41.02 | Lord_Sarpedon | Not really |
| 23:41.02 | DTRemenak | most players are on low-upload connections |
| 23:41.02 | Lord_Sarpedon | Look at it this way: |
| 23:41.02 | DTRemenak | so a superclient could support at most 2 clients on a 128k dsl line |
| 23:41.11 | DTRemenak | since he also has to send his own messages to the server |
| 23:41.14 | Lord_Sarpedon | If there are 16 players on a map, the superclient is really only serving 4 players on average |
| 23:41.44 | Lord_Sarpedon | Quenching is a big part of this |
| 23:41.57 | Lord_Sarpedon | Notice that this entire system was designed with quenching in mind |
| 23:42.04 | DTRemenak | quenching alone would help the bandwidth problem enourmously |
| 23:42.16 | DTRemenak | but there are plenty of problems with quenching too |
| 23:42.20 | DTRemenak | like teleporters |
| 23:42.20 | JeffM2501 | ahh behold the power of cheese |
| 23:42.33 | Chestal | to test out any ideas like these, it would be very handy to have some kind of simulator |
| 23:42.34 | Lord_Sarpedon | If you are in zone 1, you get few updates from zone 2 |
| 23:42.36 | DTRemenak | and lasers |
| 23:42.47 | Lord_Sarpedon | There are bandwidth simulators to simulate lag and such |
| 23:42.56 | JeffM2501 | superclient? |
| 23:43.03 | Lord_Sarpedon | And .NET or Mono would be great for a prototype |
| 23:43.13 | DTRemenak | JeffM2501: think redistribution node |
| 23:43.16 | Chestal | the simulator would have to run a simplified version of bzflag |
| 23:43.18 | JeffM2501 | eww |
| 23:43.24 | blast007 | what if one of the superclients lose their connection? |
| 23:43.28 | JeffM2501 | latency up the wazzo |
| 23:43.28 | Chestal | and ideally some means to automatically rate the wquality |
| 23:43.40 | Chestal | i.e., latency, jitter, precision |
| 23:44.03 | DTRemenak | JeffM2501: yeah, it's a summative lag. That's what I explained, if you read the backlog. |
| 23:44.03 | Lord_Sarpedon | Well, all clients are also connected to server, but only communicate when they have to (server-only messages or lost their superclient) |
| 23:44.24 | Lord_Sarpedon | Has everyone read my initial idea http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?t=3151 |
| 23:44.26 | DTRemenak | but it would help low-latency/low-bandwidth connections |
| 23:44.27 | Lord_Sarpedon | Under the name Dameon1 |
| 23:44.49 | Chestal | we could just lower tank and shot speed by a factor of 10 |
| 23:44.53 | Chestal | lag problem solved :-) |
| 23:44.58 | DTRemenak | Lord_Sarpedon: I don't think that it would help enough to be worth the time to code it, quite frankly. |
| 23:44.58 | Lord_Sarpedon | Gemius! |
| 23:45.18 | Chestal | maybe factor 50 for the shots is better |
| 23:45.22 | Lord_Sarpedon | I've been wanting to create a distributed system, and bzflag is a good target |
| 23:45.24 | JeffM2501 | Lord_Sarpedon, yeah bandiwth isnt the problem |
| 23:45.25 | JeffM2501 | latency is |
| 23:45.44 | Lord_Sarpedon | Bandwidth is a largher problem than you give credit for |
| 23:45.57 | JeffM2501 | latnecy is a larger problem then you think |
| 23:46.04 | brlcad | bandwidth issues are pretty well understood in bz |
| 23:46.05 | Lord_Sarpedon | I know that too |
| 23:46.06 | DTRemenak | I think the number of servers you'd gain by letting low-bandwidth/low-latency servers get higher player count as a tradeoff for higher lag is not really that significant. |
| 23:46.24 | JeffM2501 | anything that increases latncy is way worse then bandwith increases |
| 23:46.34 | Lord_Sarpedon | I'll certainly be working on the problem |
| 23:47.05 | JeffM2501 | you can't ever get rid of lag |
| 23:47.14 | Lord_Sarpedon | I don't plan to |
| 23:47.19 | JeffM2501 | best things to make game play better is to compenstate for it |
| 23:47.26 | JeffM2501 | games are not rocket science |
| 23:47.32 | DTRemenak | Lord_Sarpedon: you're welcome to do so. if you can make a clean, modular, opt-in solution, and prove that it works, we might even accept a patch :) |
| 23:47.37 | JeffM2501 | there are a great number of games out there that solve the problems just fine |
| 23:47.38 | Lord_Sarpedon | I want to get as many players a spossible without raising lag too much |
| 23:47.50 | Lord_Sarpedon | Yes, agreed |
| 23:47.56 | JeffM2501 | Lord_Sarpedon, then look at what everquest does |
| 23:47.58 | DTRemenak | Lord_Sarpedon: why do you want to play with so many players, is another question |
| 23:48.01 | JeffM2501 | or subspace |
| 23:48.02 | Lord_Sarpedon | Quenching would help. That's what UT does |
| 23:48.05 | cosmos | the solution is simple. just install a few DS3's at your house |
| 23:48.06 | JeffM2501 | yeah |
| 23:48.09 | brlcad | subspace! |
| 23:48.16 | JeffM2501 | subspace! |
| 23:48.24 | DTRemenak | I don't enjoy games with more than about 15 players or so |
| 23:48.29 | Lord_Sarpedon | So many? Is it really a good idea to have to have a T1 for a decent sized game? |
| 23:48.40 | DTRemenak | ~15*40 |
| 23:48.41 | ibot | 600 |
| 23:48.41 | Lord_Sarpedon | Ok, what conenction is needed for 15 players? |
| 23:48.47 | DTRemenak | 600 kbps up |
| 23:48.57 | DTRemenak | mid-quality DSL |
| 23:49.01 | JeffM2501 | I'd be able to host that at home |
| 23:49.31 | JeffM2501 | spaned servers is a viable option, but you'd have to ensure a exceptionaly low latency between the server nodes |
| 23:49.36 | Lord_Sarpedon | How many would you be able to fit on a T1 |
| 23:49.39 | JeffM2501 | a kind of conenction that your players would not have |
| 23:49.45 | DTRemenak | ~1440/40 |
| 23:49.46 | ibot | 36 |
| 23:49.53 | Lord_Sarpedon | I see |
| 23:49.56 | Chestal | what's that *40 rule of thumb? |
| 23:50.15 | DTRemenak | Chestal: 5 kilobytes per player second. Ten shots, based on secretplace data. |
| 23:50.19 | Chestal | with all players active, bandwidth should rise ^2 |
| 23:50.56 | Lord_Sarpedon | Then of course flag updates, guided missile, downloading the map to players.... |
| 23:51.02 | Lord_Sarpedon | There's an idea |
| 23:51.03 | DTRemenak | yeah, it is mildly exponential. doesnt' quite show up as squared; that's the theoretical maximum. |
| 23:51.16 | blast007 | downloaded the map can be shifted to a seperate web server now |
| 23:51.26 | Lord_Sarpedon | Hah. SHows how well I keep up |
| 23:51.31 | DTRemenak | heh :) |
| 23:51.44 | Lord_Sarpedon | I'll have to look into...but my problem right now is playinh bzf |
| 23:51.52 | Lord_Sarpedon | I still don't have hardware accel |
| 23:52.00 | Lord_Sarpedon | But other games play fine |
| 23:52.03 | JeffM2501 | and you think bandwith is your problem? :) |
| 23:52.12 | blast007 | it should say your renderer when you start the client |
| 23:52.12 | Lord_Sarpedon | Hah |
| 23:52.15 | Chestal | yu get indirect rendering with bzflag? |
| 23:52.17 | JeffM2501 | low frame rate can make you lagy |
| 23:52.54 | DTRemenak | JeffM2501: hehe, his gl problem is totally different than his bandwidth stuff |
| 23:52.58 | Lord_Sarpedon | its using mesa indirect for some retarded reason |
| 23:53.03 | JeffM2501 | eww |
| 23:53.10 | blast007 | Lord_Sarpedon: what color depth are you playing at? |
| 23:53.14 | Lord_Sarpedon | and I have the latest ati drivers, working with everything BUT bzflag |
| 23:53.15 | Chestal | OS and flavor? ATI? |
| 23:53.21 | Lord_Sarpedon | ahhh that might be it |
| 23:53.37 | JeffM2501 | install windows :) |
| 23:54.29 | Lord_Sarpedon | can't change color epth in bzflag |
| 23:54.30 | Chestal | ctl3d.dll not found. Luckily, just copying ctl3d32.dll worked .-) |
| 23:55.06 | Lord_Sarpedon | hmm that's most odd |
| 23:55.08 | Chestal | Lord: what system are you running? |
| 23:55.13 | Lord_Sarpedon | suse 9.2 |
| 23:55.17 | blast007 | is your GUI running at 16 or 32 bit? |
| 23:55.26 | Lord_Sarpedon | gui running at 24... |
| 23:55.32 | Lord_Sarpedon | that's what the ati driver requires |
| 23:55.40 | blast007 | hmm |
| 23:55.46 | Lord_Sarpedon | where's the config |
| 23:56.07 | Chestal | glxgears are super-fast, too? |
| 23:56.23 | Lord_Sarpedon | let me check...I was running ut2k4 today at 1280x1024, if that answers |
| 23:56.42 | Lord_Sarpedon | glxgears at about 7k fps |
| 23:56.50 | blast007 | heh |
| 23:56.53 | Chestal | ok |
| 23:57.04 | Chestal | and bzflag says that it uses mesa indirect when you start it? |
| 23:57.04 | Lord_Sarpedon | but bzflag...closer to 5 (no k( |
| 23:57.08 | Lord_Sarpedon | yea |
| 23:57.17 | Chestal | check with ldd whether glxgears and bzflag use the same gl libs |
| 23:57.30 | Lord_Sarpedon | I recompiled and explicitly pointed it to the ati gl |
| 23:58.19 | Lord_Sarpedon | glxgears is using the ati gl |
| 23:58.47 | Lord_Sarpedon | so is bzflag... |
| 23:59.51 | Lord_Sarpedon | that's funny...every other OSS game I have played plus UT and NWN run OK, but NOT this one |
