irclog2html for #bzflag on 20030708

`00:00.48`	`*** part/#bzflag david_v (~david_v@c213-200-135-241.cm-upc.chello.se)`
`00:06.41`	`sussudio`	`god, legolas is dim.`
`00:12.12`	`Mayhem`	`Hmm, protocol.txt and the Wiki protocol doc are being updated independantly, tis bad.`
`00:17.14`	`*** join/#bzflag bzgirl (~brat@toronto-hs-64-26-176-100.s-ip.magma.ca)`
`00:18.49`	`bzgirl`	`sussudio: when you do a client query...and that person has you on ignore, it will return no query, so calling them a cheater makes one look silly`
`00:23.06`	`sussudio`	`i don't think so... being a "special" and paranoid 10 year old on dope makes you look silly...`
`00:23.35`	`bzgirl`	`so he cheats because your client query is ignored?`
`00:37.01`	`*** join/#bzflag JBDiGriz (~JBDiGriz@adsl-63-204-118-6.dsl.sndg02.pacbell.net)`
`00:45.38`	`Mayhem`	`now what?`
`00:47.44`	`captain_proton`	`hm?`
`00:47.58`	`Mayhem`	`sigh?`
`00:48.02`	`captain_proton`	`oh`
`00:48.06`	`captain_proton`	`https://sourceforge.net/forum/message.php?msg_id=2093320`
`00:48.24`	`Mayhem`	`heh`
`00:49.03`	`Mayhem`	`makes you wonder...`
`00:49.52`	`sussudio`	`mine usually does that..... usually on netsplits in big channel. you just give the mouse a whack and it's gone.`
`00:51.55`	`captain_proton`	`yours usually does what now?`
`00:52.29`	`sussudio`	`go all "mouse movement keyboard movement" on me`
`00:52.41`	`captain_proton`	`and what does that have to do with netsplits and irc?`
`00:53.14`	`sussudio`	`i don't know, but then is when it usually happens. just an observation. maybe it's something to do with the usb bus.`
`00:53.57`	`captain_proton`	`if you insist`
`00:54.13`	`captain_proton`	`every time i've seen the problem its hardware, not software`
`00:54.25`	`captain_proton`	`the mouse magically finds a spot where it oscillates`
`00:55.50`	`*** join/#bzflag Carnage (strayer@dyn216-8-172-184.ADSL.mnsi.net)`
`01:11.27`	`CIA`	`03davidtrowbridge * 12bzflag/ (6 files in 3 dirs): use 1/0 instead of yes/no`
`02:02.21`	`*** join/#bzflag CIA (CIA@cia.utility.freenode)`
`02:04.59`	`sussudio`	`o.k...... my opinion of blind ambition has just gone to zero......`
`02:05.47`	`*** join/#bzflag CIA (CIA@cia.utility.freenode)`
`02:09.32`	`*** join/#bzflag Patlabor221 (~jeffm@adsl-64-173-105-158.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net)`
`02:09.32`	`*** mode/#bzflag [+o Patlabor221] by ChanServ`
`02:09.54`	`sussudio`	`Patlabor221: do you actually have a sense of humor?`
`02:10.36`	`Patlabor221`	`only on tuesdays`
`02:10.58`	`sussudio`	`and on other days?`
`02:11.12`	`*** join/#bzflag KR (~k@cae168-234-054.sc.rr.com)`
`02:11.12`	`Patlabor221`	`are the named tuesday?`
`02:11.26`	`KR`	`hi all`
`02:11.43`	`sussudio`	`that's not an answer, is it......`
`02:12.05`	`sussudio`	`i found your comment concerning my mother rather offensive on bzboard...... not funny at all`
`02:12.29`	`Patlabor221`	`I found your post about MAC ofensive and not funny at all :)`
`02:12.31`	`captain_proton`	`ooh thats rich... sussudio finding someone else offensive...`
`02:13.20`	`sussudio`	`no, MAC always says that he's very very old... that's why i picked a picture of patrick moore, the presenter of "the sky at night", who's been doing that for the last 45 years... see, that's humor.....`
`02:13.52`	`Patlabor221`	`that's your humor`
`02:14.02`	`sussudio`	`if you would ask MAC, he would see the humor of it......`
`02:14.15`	`Patlabor221`	`you have yours, I have mine`
`02:14.21`	`Patlabor221`	`whop de freakin do`
`02:17.07`	`sussudio`	`there's a difference between humor and just being offensive......`
`02:17.18`	`Patlabor221`	`sometimes`
`02:17.32`	`Patlabor221`	`often the go hand in hand depeneding on what side you are on.`
`02:17.57`	`*** join/#bzflag JBDiGriz (~JBDiGriz@adsl-63-204-118-6.dsl.sndg02.pacbell.net)`
`02:18.17`	`KR`	`hi JB`
`02:18.22`	`JBDiGriz`	`hi`
`02:19.20`	`sussudio`	`ok, you probably think it was real funny what you did, even though it was not.....`
`02:19.34`	`Patlabor221`	`couple other people did`
`02:19.52`	`Patlabor221`	`but I forget, you allways right`
`02:20.13`	`Patlabor221`	`but sorry if I offended you`
`02:20.18`	`sussudio`	`ok`
`02:20.45`	`Patlabor221`	`but now you know how it feels to be on the other end`
`02:20.56`	`sussudio`	`no, i don't.`
`02:24.23`	`Patlabor221`	`sweet babby jesus cap, what the hell did you do in config manager`
`02:25.20`	`Patlabor221`	`welcome to the warn-o-rama`
`02:26.16`	`JBDiGriz`	`Developing today is rather exciting, never know what's going to happen next!`
`02:26.40`	`Patlabor221`	`wow this is a new one`
`02:26.40`	`Patlabor221`	`: warning C4503: '_Redbl' : decorated name length exceeded, name was truncated`
`02:26.51`	`captain_proton`	`decorated name length??`
`02:27.10`	`Patlabor221`	`yeah`
`02:27.14`	`Patlabor221`	`odd`
`02:27.32`	`captain_proton`	`i didn't think i added a lot to config manager...`
`02:27.40`	`Patlabor221`	`it's in common.h`
`02:27.58`	`Patlabor221`	`I think it's another lame warning`
`02:29.27`	`Patlabor221`	`it is`
`02:31.26`	`CIA`	`03jeffm2501 * 12bzflag/include (common.h): boil, boil, toil and trouble... Fix those warnings on the double.`
`02:32.30`	`JBDiGriz`	`Has anyone run autogen today, and are you getting a failure in src/platform?`
`02:32.48`	`captain_proton`	`works fine with my 1.5`
`02:33.47`	`KR`	`c ya`
`02:33.51`	`Patlabor221`	`awww I angered the little piggy`
`02:33.56`	`JBDiGriz`	`I'm getting an error that I can't use += before = in the SUBDIRS for that Makefile.am`
`02:34.06`	`captain_proton`	`JBDiGriz: try changing the += to straight =`
`02:34.26`	`JBDiGriz`	`That works, but I wanted to make sure I'm not breaking anyone else`
`02:34.40`	`Patlabor221`	`didn't chestal have the same problem?`
`02:34.45`	`captain_proton`	`i don't think it should break anyone else, thats the only place that SUBDIRS occurs in that file`
`02:35.23`	`JBDiGriz`	`It's also the only DIST_SUBDIRS in that file, I have changed both of them.`
`02:38.02`	`Patlabor221`	`what was wrong with the thing where it didn't clear the framebuffer the other day ( as I see it fixed now )`
`02:43.25`	`*** part/#bzflag eddienull (~kevin@adsl-63-195-130-242.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net)`
`02:43.43`	`JBDiGriz`	`Am I allowed to shoot learner when he comes back from the movie?`
`02:54.08`	`Patlabor221`	`yes`
`02:54.23`	`Patlabor221`	`tho we have a minimum guage here for all balsitics`
`02:55.31`	`JBDiGriz`	`Thanks, I'll start preparing his "reception"! :{)`
`03:03.46`	`*** join/#bzflag learner (sean@chr160dhcp1675.chrchv01.md.comcast.net)`
`03:13.17`	`CIA`	`03davidtrowbridge * 12bzflag/src/bzflag (playing.cxx): move key manager call to doKeyCommon`
`03:13.20`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/BZFlag/Flag (.cvsignore): Ignore them pesky .pyc files in the Flag module`
`03:13.20`	`CIA`	`03davidtrowbridge * 12bzflag/src/bzflag (playing.cxx): yay for key bindings!`
`03:15.33`	`learner`	`bad fix.. ? ....`
`03:18.57`	`JBDiGriz`	`I hope you're trying the make build, because the pb build will need some more work before it's ready to check in.`
`03:19.31`	`JBDiGriz`	`Finally back to only the data directory problems!`
`03:19.47`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/ (2 files): Adding a README and a TODO list`
`03:21.45`	`learner`	`what happened?`
`03:22.00`	`learner`	`I notice that two files were added to libcommon`
`03:22.45`	`captain_proton`	`learner: SUBDIRS in platform/Makefile.am broke automake 1.7`
`03:23.17`	`CIA`	`03dbw192 * 12bzflag/src/platform/MacOSX/BZFlag.pbproj (2 files in 2 dirs):`
`03:23.18`	`CIA`	`Fix the MacOS project to include new files, add libraries, and remove absolute paths.`
`03:23.18`	`CIA`	`Fix the autoMake configuration.`
`03:23.56`	`JBDiGriz`	`The libraries were installed at absolute paths. A few files were missing, and others weren't included in the bzflag client copy.`
`03:24.23`	`learner`	`ugh`
`03:24.26`	`JBDiGriz`	`It didn't fix the problem with finding the font file.`
`03:24.34`	`learner`	`double ugh`
`03:25.03`	`JBDiGriz`	`It's still looking in the correct directory, but I'm not sure what file name it's really trying to open, and what format it expects.`
`03:25.13`	`learner`	`cap, SUBDIRS? I don't recall touching platform/Makefile.am`
`03:25.36`	`JBDiGriz`	`It looks like someone else was being helpful as well ;-)`
`03:25.41`	`captain_proton`	`learner: heh, just trying to sneak in blaming you while JBDiGriz was at it...`
`03:25.49`	`learner`	`ah, heheh`
`03:26.26`	`CIA`	`03davidtrowbridge * 12bzflag/src/bzflag (playing.cxx): yay, we have a jump command`
`03:26.49`	`JBDiGriz`	`After that fiasco we had with releasing g2, I didn't want to start fixing libraries again!`
`03:27.09`	`captain_proton`	`JBDiGriz: now is the time to fix things`
`03:27.13`	`learner`	`the build problems are expected - people added new files, but I don't see where the absolute path setting is coming from...`
`03:27.50`	`JBDiGriz`	`That's the pb weirdness that we had with all of the libraries in the build.`
`03:28.03`	`JBDiGriz`	`We have to set the install path, and then tell it to skip the install.`
`03:28.42`	`JBDiGriz`	`captain_proton: We were a bit surprised when a build from learner didn't work on my machine.`
`03:28.53`	`captain_proton`	`heh, i bet`
`03:29.03`	`learner`	`but, why is it recurring! ;(`
`03:29.23`	`JBDiGriz`	`On closer inspection, it turned out that we had some absolute pathnames in the libraries.`
`03:29.44`	`JBDiGriz`	`You added libz and libMediaFile to the build.`
`03:30.54`	`JBDiGriz`	`It was fun looking at each others build trees when we were debugging the problem! :-)`
`03:32.08`	`learner`	`all I remember are these hands coming through the display strangling me :)`
`03:32.37`	`JBDiGriz`	`It's 11:30 at night, after an evening at the movies, and you're wondering about me? ;P`
`03:34.13`	`learner`	`I'm .. um .. getting myself accustomed to west coast time.. yeah, that's it`
`03:34.35`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/BZFlag/Flag (__init__.py): Whoops, need to import Errors in Flag for the ProtocolWarning issued when flag updates' status don't match the local status`
`03:35.27`	`learner`	`any reason, jb, to not add the 4 new files?`
`03:35.50`	`JBDiGriz`	`Which files? I added the ones that I thought were missing.`
`03:36.02`	`learner`	`yet you just commited and they're missing`
`03:36.22`	`JBDiGriz`	`Hmm, I'll doublecheck, which files?`
`03:36.48`	`learner`	`right now I'm getting an error on keymanager.h`
`03:36.56`	`learner`	`that should be the "first"`
`03:37.05`	`JBDiGriz`	`I added that one to the include directory.`
`03:37.49`	`learner`	`hmmm`
`03:38.26`	`JBDiGriz`	`Now it claims I need to merge my project file.`
`03:38.48`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/ (observer.py): Changing nick in observer example to hopefully keep the server from kicking it for idling`
`03:40.42`	`learner`	`negative.. no new files added here`
`03:41.07`	`JBDiGriz`	`It didn't add them for some reason, and it's definitely necessary, give me a second.`
`03:44.50`	`*** join/#bzflag Michaelh (Mouse@172-123.dynamic.visi.com)`
`03:47.13`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/BZFlag/Protocol (FromServer.py): Add MsgTeleport`
`03:47.30`	`captain_proton`	`hmm`
`03:47.36`	`captain_proton`	`i'll have to add the screenshot command from 1.8 =)`
`03:47.37`	`CIA`	`03davidtrowbridge * 12bzflag/src/bzflag (playing.cxx): add a fire command`
`03:47.40`	`captain_proton`	`complete with gamma correction`
`03:52.12`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/BZFlag (Client.py): Raise a ProtocolWarning when an unknown flag ID is updated`
`03:52.48`	`learner`	`oh please do!`
`03:53.00`	`scanline`	`ooh, then we just need the movie recorder`
`03:53.11`	`captain_proton`	`scanline: yep :)`
`03:53.35`	`learner`	`with replay and cinematic tracking cameras.. :)`
`03:53.43`	`captain_proton`	`hehe`
`03:53.50`	`captain_proton`	`the movie recorder is technically capable of that`
`03:53.59`	`JBDiGriz`	`Now we exit pb, and make sure all changes are saved !`
`03:54.02`	`captain_proton`	`could probably do it pretty easily with the observer roaming stuff`
`03:55.20`	`CIA`	`03dbw192 * 12bzflag/src/platform/MacOSX/BZFlag.pbproj (project.pbxproj): Make sure all changes are saved this time.`
`03:55.25`	`JBDiGriz`	`learner: One more time, with feeling! :-)`
`03:55.36`	`learner`	`sure... but I want a camera that only tracks "the action"`
`03:55.45`	`captain_proton`	`learner: easy`
`03:55.49`	`captain_proton`	`roaming + bunny hunt`
`03:55.51`	`captain_proton`	`=}`
`03:56.03`	`learner`	`heh`
`04:03.06`	`learner`	`looks like the mob has spoken..`
`04:04.24`	`JBDiGriz`	`Interesting, in the make version, the data directory is .../bzflag/src/bzflag. I wonder how it's finding the data files?`
`04:09.06`	`scanline`	`does bzflag have a utility for connecting to a server and saving its map yet?`
`04:09.41`	`captain_proton`	`no`
`04:09.47`	`scanline`	`well, it will soon :)`
`04:09.59`	`learner`	`he set you up for that one, cap`
`04:11.04`	`captain_proton`	`that's okay, someone on the Internet just clued me in on a great way to make $$$ MONEY $$$`
`04:11.32`	`learner`	`they found YOU TOO!`
`04:11.54`	`learner`	`wow, we must be lucky`
`04:12.27`	`captain_proton`	`yep`
`04:13.02`	`Michaelh`	`perhaps sell bzflag for $9.99 on one of the bargain basement labels ?`
`04:13.32`	`Michaelh`	`like with scrabble`
`04:13.39`	`Michaelh`	`and chessmaster 2000`
`04:14.23`	`JBDiGriz`	`All I got was an offer for a free Victoria's Secret Card, the money offer was to enlarge body parts.`
`04:14.56`	`Michaelh`	`like arms and legs?`
`04:15.17`	`JBDiGriz`	`Yeah, right! You got it! :-)`
`04:15.24`	`Michaelh`	`bigger legs would be cool.....`
`04:24.17`	`*** join/#bzflag terryc (~creeperz@host-11-76-220-24.midco.net)`
`04:24.30`	`terryc`	`Need some Linux help`
`04:24.55`	`terryc`	`What's the command for opening .rpm files`
`04:25.07`	`Michaelh`	`rpm`
`04:25.30`	`terryc`	`Isn't there something afterward`
`04:25.52`	`captain_proton`	`perhaps you should ask in a channel more relevant?`
`04:25.54`	`captain_proton`	`like...#redhat`
`04:25.56`	`Michaelh`	`rpm Ekkkkkkkkaaaaaaaaarggggggbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbeeehhhhhhhhhhalllllllllllllllllllllll......`
`04:26.05`	`Michaelh`	`actually I don't know`
`04:26.07`	`Michaelh`	`sorry`
`04:26.13`	`terryc`	`Heh`
`04:26.30`	`Michaelh`	`do you use bzflag?`
`04:26.41`	`Michaelh`	`we have been known to support bzflag users :)`
`04:26.57`	`captain_proton`	`Michaelh: i don't want this to be a generic tech support channel :P`
`04:27.04`	`Michaelh`	`no?`
`04:27.07`	`terryc`	`Actually, I'm trying to install wine for BZEdit :-)`
`04:27.24`	`Michaelh`	`is bzedit only windows?`
`04:27.28`	`learner`	`heheh, cap is getting set up left and right`
`04:27.48`	`captain_proton`	`learner: its especially neat, in lieu of the fact that i wrote the linux version of bzedit`
`04:27.57`	`learner`	`lol`
`04:28.19`	`Michaelh`	`what a concept`
`04:28.40`	`Michaelh`	`does it like have windows and stuff?`
`04:28.47`	`captain_proton`	`it does!`
`04:29.05`	`Michaelh`	`cool`
`04:29.36`	`*** join/#bzflag JBDiGriz (~JBDiGriz@adsl-63-204-118-6.dsl.sndg02.pacbell.net)`
`04:29.47`	`learner`	`what's it use for windowing, cap?`
`04:29.56`	`captain_proton`	`gnome/gtk`
`04:30.13`	`captain_proton`	`its got a real widget set and everything!`
`04:32.40`	`learner`	`hmmm.. if getting gtk installed wasn't such pain in the butt on os x, I'd be able to give it a whirl..`
`04:33.22`	`captain_proton`	`someone here got it mostly running`
`04:35.20`	`learner`	`yea, I think I was talking to him last week about it`
`04:35.46`	`JBDiGriz`	`What's the difference between gtk and gtk+?`
`04:35.53`	`captain_proton`	`JBDiGriz: nothing`
`04:36.01`	`captain_proton`	`the technical name is 'gtk+' but everyone just calls it gtk`
`04:36.23`	`JBDiGriz`	`Supposedly gtk+ works on MacOSX. That was part of ethereal, an earlier discussion.`
`04:36.49`	`captain_proton`	`the bigger issue is all the gnome libs`
`04:36.52`	`captain_proton`	`and gtkglarea`
`04:39.42`	`learner`	`hence, the pain in the butt`
`04:39.45`	`learner`	`:)`
`04:43.07`	`learner`	`Mmm.. Bridget Fonda kicking butt right now..`
`04:43.41`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/ (6 files in 3 dirs): Yay, an amazingly cute little world grabber proggie`
`04:43.46`	`scanline`	`hooray`
`04:43.55`	`scanline`	`29 lines of cute python :)`
`04:45.40`	`scanline`	`./worldgrabber.py -s xmission.bzflag.org:5156 -o foo.bzw`
`04:46.32`	`scanline`	`it's not tested extensively, but it seems to work`
`04:46.35`	`scanline`	`:)`
`04:46.42`	`scanline`	`though I need to add support for CTF bases`
`04:46.54`	`learner`	`I expect it to work perfectly the first time -- no worries`
`04:47.01`	`scanline`	`yay`
`04:47.56`	`scanline`	`now to write code for the opposite, so I can have a world viewer...`
`04:48.06`	`learner`	`where is it?`
`04:48.15`	`scanline`	`pybzflag module`
`04:49.51`	`*** join/#bzflag creeperz (~creeperz@host-11-76-220-24.midco.net)`
`04:51.28`	`captain_proton`	`scanline: heh`
`04:53.31`	`captain_proton`	`scanline: ooh, thats neat`
`04:53.39`	`scanline`	`looked at the source?`
`04:53.45`	`captain_proton`	`yep`
`04:53.49`	`scanline`	`:)`
`04:54.23`	`captain_proton`	`learner: because we want the bzedit windows source when we check out bzflag...`
`04:54.54`	`scanline`	`the spiffy command line stuff is all due to optik, plus a subclass of its command line parser that handles standard arguments for clients`
`04:58.11`	`learner`	`worked on first try, scanline`
`04:58.13`	`learner`	`:)`
`04:58.16`	`scanline`	`ooh, amazing`
`04:58.22`	`scanline`	`and that's on OS X?`
`04:58.42`	`learner`	`well.. actually running it with no params gave an error, but I'll let that one slide :)`
`04:58.45`	`learner`	`yes, os x`
`04:59.31`	`scanline`	`a connection refused error maybe?`
`04:59.45`	`scanline`	`that's because the default server is localhost`
`04:59.47`	`learner`	`yep, in not so few words`
`05:00.02`	`learner`	`there's a server running localhost.. just not 5155.. :)`
`05:00.07`	`scanline`	`heh`
`05:00.58`	`scanline`	`so.. with very little extra code I could also make a utility to make thumbnail images of world files`
`05:01.28`	`scanline`	`I think I saw something already that does that, but mine would probably be cleaner =)`
`05:01.56`	`scanline`	`and you could then combine that thumbnailer, the server list code, and this world grabber to make a CGI that lists all active bzflag servers along with thumbnails of the maps`
`05:02.36`	`scanline`	`well, IIRC the other one was in perl, and this is in python... so yes, cleaner :)`
`05:04.46`	`learner`	`this supposed to happen?`
`05:04.47`	`learner`	`bash-2.05a$ ./observer.py`
`05:04.47`	`learner`	`Traceback (most recent call last):`
`05:04.47`	`learner`	`<PROTECTED>`
`05:04.47`	`learner`	`<PROTECTED>`
`05:04.47`	`learner`	`<PROTECTED>`
`05:04.49`	`learner`	`<PROTECTED>`
`05:05.58`	`captain_proton`	`do you have pygame installed?`
`05:07.49`	`learner`	`pygame? wouldn't know`
`05:08.10`	`*** join/#bzflag MrApathyCream (dbrosius@balt-209-163-100-60.qis-dynamic-dialup.coretel.net)`
`05:08.15`	`scanline`	`pygame might be a bit tricky to get running on OS X, since it needs a pretty recent SDL to work correctly under Quartz`
`05:09.03`	`learner`	`where would it be if I did have it`
`05:09.09`	`captain_proton`	`scanline: sdl should be current on osx`
`05:09.27`	`scanline`	`learner: if you had it you shouldn't get that error, so you probably don't`
`05:09.34`	`scanline`	`it's not part of the standard python library`
`05:09.46`	`scanline`	`http://pygame.org/`
`05:09.51`	`learner`	`where might i get it then`
`05:09.57`	`scanline`	`^`
`05:09.58`	`scanline`	`:)`
`05:10.18`	`scanline`	`http://python.org/`
`05:10.20`	`scanline`	`heh`
`05:10.22`	`scanline`	`python's really portable :)`
`05:10.34`	`scanline`	`they even have a pointy-clicky-installer for windows`
`05:10.54`	`captain_proton`	`yay`
`05:10.58`	`learner`	`heh .. http://redivi.com/~bob/`
`05:11.00`	`captain_proton`	`i picked up US on xmission`
`05:11.16`	`MrApathyCream`	`pinty-clicky woowoo!!`
`05:11.22`	`scanline`	`learner: interesting.. hacked to pieces it says? :-/`
`05:11.55`	`learner`	`oops, but that's for 10.1 .. there's another site`
`05:12.58`	`MrApathyCream`	`use 2.2.3?`
`05:13.18`	`scanline`	`I've tested it on 2.2.3, but it probably works on older`
`05:13.25`	`fiberchunks`	`captain_proton> why does Tim not like flipZ ? seems silly to keep a bug and not make it a feature when the work has already been done`
`05:13.31`	`scanline`	`I avoided any really new features`
`05:13.38`	`learner`	`http://www.visionegg.org/install-macosx-details.html for people searching irc archives`
`05:13.40`	`captain_proton`	`fiberchunks: -z isn't a bug if its handled correctly`
`05:13.53`	`MrApathyCream`	`fiberchunks: i think he thinks you can accomplish the same thing without flipz`
`05:14.12`	`captain_proton`	`which you can`
`05:14.18`	`captain_proton`	`flipz just adds more data to download`
`05:14.25`	`fiberchunks`	`ah`
`05:14.55`	`fiberchunks`	`-z implies a direction below zero, which indicates below the world ground to me, but whatever`
`05:15.16`	`captain_proton`	`ok, i'm committing a change that will -require- people to add stuff to their new config file manually if they want things to work`
`05:15.19`	`captain_proton`	`most notably,`
`05:15.27`	`captain_proton`	`bind Left Mouse down fire`
`05:15.27`	`captain_proton`	`bind Middle Mouse down drop`
`05:15.27`	`captain_proton`	`bind Tab down jump`
`05:15.30`	`MrApathyCream`	`grrr`
`05:15.32`	`captain_proton`	`eek`
`05:15.35`	`MrApathyCream`	`:)`
`05:15.38`	`captain_proton`	`first lemme fix a bug :)`
`05:15.54`	`scanline`	`yikes... xmission has a very high timeout for dropping bad flags`
`05:16.15`	`MrApathyCream`	`(hours)`
`05:16.16`	`scanline`	`I didn't see exactly, but somewhere around 1600 seconds`
`05:16.33`	`scanline`	`MrApathyCream: you should get pygame too so you can play with the graphical stuff :)`
`05:16.49`	`fiberchunks`	`you guys seen patlabor recently?`
`05:17.00`	`fiberchunks`	`~seen patlabor221`
`05:17.00`		`patlabor221 <~jeffm@adsl-64-173-105-158.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #bzflag, 2h 22m 37s ago, saying: 'tho we have a minimum guage here for all balsitics'.`
`05:17.03`	`fiberchunks`	`nm`
`05:17.08`	`MrApathyCream`	`scanline wake me in a few hours and i will`
`05:17.38`	`MrApathyCream`	`ibot, spell balsitics`
`05:17.38`		`possible spellings for balsitics: ballistics ballistic Baltic's elastics plastics ballistics's blasts baldrics falsities plastic's blast's`
`05:17.39`	`captain_proton`	`scanline: 1615s =)`
`05:17.48`	`MrApathyCream`	`ah`
`05:17.52`	`scanline`	`captain_proton: bleh`
`05:18.07`	`captain_proton`	`bind "Left Mouse" down fire`
`05:18.07`	`captain_proton`	`bind "Middle Mouse" down drop`
`05:18.07`	`captain_proton`	`bind Tab down jump`
`05:18.15`	`captain_proton`	`there are the correct ones`
`05:18.26`	`MrApathyCream`	`bind "Tab down" jump ??`
`05:18.32`	`MrApathyCream`	`or no quotes`
`05:18.44`	`MrApathyCream`	`ah, never mind`
`05:18.46`	`captain_proton`	`err`
`05:18.48`	`MrApathyCream`	`no qotes`
`05:19.11`	`learner`	`you breaking my keybindings, cap? :)`
`05:19.12`	`MrApathyCream`	`this goes in config.h?`
`05:19.16`	`captain_proton`	`learner: yep!`
`05:19.20`	`captain_proton`	`MrApathyCream: bzflag.bzc19`
`05:19.22`	`CIA`	`03davidtrowbridge * 12bzflag/src (2 files in 2 dirs):`
`05:19.22`	`CIA`	`wipeout change`
`05:19.22`	`CIA`	`add these (or similar) to new config:`
`05:19.23`	`CIA`	`bind "Left Mouse" down fire`
`05:19.24`	`CIA`	`bind "Middle Mouse" down drop`
`05:19.26`	`CIA`	`bind Tab down jump`
`05:19.27`	`MrApathyCream`	`ah`
`05:19.31`	`MrApathyCream`	`ok`
`05:19.44`	`captain_proton`	`eventually all keybindings will be handled as such`
`05:20.39`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/ (README): Add a little extra info to the readme`
`05:20.58`	`learner`	`as long as I can still play with my keys`
`05:21.20`	`MrApathyCream`	`<Jeff Myers>: By my dark master's will, I add these files as a sacrifice.`
`05:21.21`	`captain_proton`	`ah well i'll be ripping that apart at some point too`
`05:21.23`	`captain_proton`	`but not yet :)`
`05:21.28`	`MrApathyCream`	`:)`
`05:25.43`	`captain_proton`	`i need someone else to join xmission`
`05:26.01`	`scanline`	`hmm, I was about to say the same thing :)`
`05:26.02`	`MrApathyCream`	`building`
`05:26.16`	`captain_proton`	`thanks scanline`
`05:26.22`	`captain_proton`	`still need me there?`
`05:26.26`	`scanline`	`nope`
`05:26.30`	`captain_proton`	`k`
`05:27.09`	`learner`	`pygame installed`
`05:27.28`	`CIA`	`03davidtrowbridge * 12bzflag/src/bzflag (playing.cxx):`
`05:27.28`	`CIA`	`new command, another config option:`
`05:27.29`	`CIA`	`bind "Right Mouse" down identify`
`05:27.56`	`scanline`	`hmm, we don't have any non-rabbit-chase 1.9 servers right now`
`05:28.12`	`MrApathyCream`	`it's a fan favorite :)`
`05:29.23`	`learner`	`scanline, how do I specify a port?`
`05:29.29`	`scanline`	`host:port`
`05:29.42`	`captain_proton`	`its like a real interface!`
`05:30.21`	`learner`	`almost worked!`
`05:30.22`	`scanline`	`wow :)`
`05:30.47`	`learner`	`bash-2.05a$ "/usr/local/bin/pythonw" "/Volumes/Home/Archive/BZ/pybzflag/observer.py" && echo Exit status: $? && exit 1`
`05:30.47`	`learner`	`Connected.`
`05:30.47`	`learner`	`World loaded.`
`05:30.47`	`learner`	`Traceback (most recent call last):`
`05:30.47`	`learner`	`<PROTECTED>`
`05:30.49`	`learner`	`<PROTECTED>`
`05:30.51`	`learner`	`...`
`05:30.55`	`learner`	`<PROTECTED>`
`05:30.55`	`learner`	`<PROTECTED>`
`05:30.57`	`learner`	`NameError: global name 'Color' is not defined`
`05:30.59`	`learner`	`<PROTECTED>`
`05:31.01`	`learner`	`<PROTECTED>`
`05:31.01`	`captain_proton`	`hehe`
`05:31.03`	`learner`	`NameError: global name 'Color' is not defined`
`05:31.05`	`scanline`	`uh oh :)`
`05:31.12`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/BZFlag/UI (OverheadView.py): Color-code the players in OverheadView according to team`
`05:31.22`	`captain_proton`	`can you upgrade to pygame 1.5.6?`
`05:31.25`	`scanline`	`that means your pygame isn't new enough apparently... but it's not worth requiring such a new pygame just to get Color`
`05:31.34`	`scanline`	`lemme just remove Color, I don't really need it`
`05:31.42`	`learner`	`heheh`
`05:32.21`	`learner`	`it actually flashed a window.. cool`
`05:32.26`	`scanline`	`hehe`
`05:33.08`	`learner`	`you even get a big yellow snake icon in the dock :)`
`05:33.54`	`scanline`	`hehe`
`05:35.25`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/BZFlag/UI (OverheadView.py): Convert colors into tuples in the source, to remove the requirement for the apparently somewhat recent Color() function in pygame`
`05:36.15`	`scanline`	`so, there's yer commit.. it should work now :)`
`05:36.34`	`learner`	`cooooooooooool........................`
`05:37.04`	`*** join/#bzflag trepan (~trepan@CPE0040f42db082-CM00e06f15f704.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)`
`05:37.11`	`scanline`	`=)`
`05:39.05`	`*** join/#bzflag creeperz (~creeperz@host-11-76-220-24.midco.net)`
`05:39.12`	`*** part/#bzflag creeperz (~creeperz@host-11-76-220-24.midco.net)`
`05:39.25`	`*** join/#bzflag TerryC (~creeperz@host-11-76-220-24.midco.net)`
`05:39.39`	`TerryC`	`Anyone know where Patlabor221 is at?`
`05:39.45`	`TerryC`	`~seen Patlabor221`
`05:39.45`		`patlabor221 <~jeffm@adsl-64-173-105-158.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #bzflag, 2h 45m 22s ago, saying: 'tho we have a minimum guage here for all balsitics'.`
`05:39.48`	`fiberchunks`	`not here`
`05:39.50`	`fiberchunks`	`why?`
`05:39.59`	`fiberchunks`	`anything about the board?`
`05:40.08`	`TerryC`	`Still confused about installing wine :-)`
`05:40.15`	`fiberchunks`	`ah, nm then`
`05:40.54`	`fiberchunks`	`captain_proton> you didn't remove any users from the board lately did you? do you know if patlabor did?`
`05:41.16`	`fiberchunks`	`good enough`
`05:41.25`	`fiberchunks`	`any idea if pat did?`
`05:41.39`	`captain_proton`	`nope`
`05:41.43`	`learner`	`http://brlcad.org/tmp/observer.png`
`05:41.52`	`fiberchunks`	`thx`
`05:42.08`	`captain_proton`	`learner: is that the pygame icon in the dock?`
`05:42.23`	`learner`	`a bit cpu hungry, but it's not accempting mouse input either`
`05:42.31`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/BZFlag (2 files in 2 dirs): Move the code for converting world objects to polygons from OverheadView to WorldObjects`
`05:42.55`	`scanline`	`learner: well, right now it has no concept of frame rate limiting whatsoever, so it will be a bit CPU hungry`
`05:42.59`	`learner`	`cap, almost`
`05:43.11`	`scanline`	`learner: we want to see it with some players on the board :)`
`05:43.26`	`learner`	`well .. jump on, then.. :)`
`05:43.28`	`captain_proton`	`learner: ...almost?`
`05:43.37`	`scanline`	`hmm, kind of odd that it shows up as "pygame window" rather than "BZFlag Overhead View"`
`05:44.02`	`learner`	`it's appears to get set via a "Python Launcer"`
`05:44.23`	`learner`	`I drag the observer.py script onto it, and it comes to life`
`05:44.47`	`scanline`	`hmm, so if your server didn't happen to be localhost you'd have no way to give it command line options?`
`05:44.50`	`learner`	`apparently a python runtime with pygame, pyopengl, etc built in`
`05:44.59`	`scanline`	`OS X supports the #! line, you should just be able to run things from the command line`
`05:45.34`	`learner`	`it'll work, cap -- see the line above that gave the error`
`05:46.14`	`learner`	`that's all the wrapper is doing`
`05:46.22`	`learner`	`1:30:49: learner: bash-2.05a$ "/usr/local/bin/pythonw" "/Volumes .....`
`05:46.24`	`*** join/#bzflag MrAC (dbrosius@balt-209-163-100-67.qis-dynamic-dialup.coretel.net)`
`05:46.46`	`learner`	`so.. that means I can:`
`05:47.03`	`learner`	`pythonw observer.py whatever:5156`
`05:47.18`	`scanline`	`you probably want python rather than pythonw... pythonw is for scripts that don't want stdout`
`05:47.21`	`TerryC`	`Hi, MAC`
`05:47.27`	`MrApathyCream`	`howdy`
`05:47.28`	`scanline`	`also, if obsever.py has the +x bit, you can just run it directly`
`05:47.30`	`learner`	`heh, Mr. AC sounds like a slashdot nick`
`05:47.42`	`learner`	`scanline, trying`
`05:48.55`	`learner`	`way coool.. even better, scanline`
`05:48.59`	`scanline`	`is there a reason that every time I click in bzflag my gamma toggles between 1.0 and whatever bzflag has set?`
`05:48.59`	`learner`	`it's handling events now`
`05:49.05`	`scanline`	`events? hm?`
`05:49.27`	`learner`	`think window movement, minimization, etc`
`05:49.36`	`scanline`	`oh.. it wasn't doing that before?`
`05:49.40`	`scanline`	`that's silly`
`05:49.41`	`CIA`	`03dbrosius * 12bzflag/src/bzflag (playing.cxx): win32 doesn't like redefined for loop vars`
`05:49.50`	`learner`	`wait.. i lie`
`05:50.16`	`learner`	`no events (other than window drag)`
`05:50.35`	`scanline`	`well, the code that integrates the UI with the client event loop right now is an ugly hack which doesn't pump pygame's event queue... so that might cause problems I guess`
`05:50.54`	`scanline`	`but it doesn't on any system with a cough real GUI :)`
`05:51.08`	`learner`	`I do get these:`
`05:51.08`	`learner`	`*** ProtocolWarning : Unhandled message MsgTeamUpdate`
`05:51.09`	`learner`	`*** ProtocolWarning : Unhandled message MsgNewRabbit`
`05:51.16`	`scanline`	`so do I`
`05:51.16`	`learner`	`normal?`
`05:51.18`	`learner`	`ok`
`05:51.21`	`scanline`	`those are just messages I haven't implemented yet`
`05:51.47`	`learner`	`I agree if real means cough broken`
`05:52.01`	`learner`	`:)`
`05:52.04`	`scanline`	`hey, X is no perfect GUI, but its event handling is pretty robust`
`05:52.31`	`learner`	`hehehe, emphasis on the "robust".. especially the _bust_ part`
`05:53.00`	`scanline`	`it's not pretty, but it's definitely robust`
`05:53.10`	`learner`	`hehe, I have a great paper for you .. gimme a sec`
`05:54.36`	`fiberchunks`	`oh, this sucks`
`05:56.59`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/BZFlag (World.py): Implemented World.saveBinary(), fixed a bug in which the EndOfData block was read but not stored in the blocks list`
`05:58.27`	`learner`	`here's a great paper, scanline: http://brlcad.org/tmp/miller98fuzz.pdf`
`05:58.50`	`learner`	`basically these guys test the reliability of unix software, including X`
`05:59.02`	`fiberchunks`	`hrm...`
`05:59.22`	`learner`	`for X they feed x apps legal and illegal messages and watch what happens`
`05:59.45`	`learner`	`there's a 30% and 60% failure rate respectively :)`
`05:59.49`	`scanline`	`oh, there are a lot of fun ways to screw up X with bad messages :)`
`05:59.52`	`scanline`	`haha`
`06:00.35`	`scanline`	`in fact, every GUI I know of can be screwed up pretty easily, because nobody puts permissions or quotas on things like mouse grabbing, full-screen modes, messing with other people's windows, creating new windows...`
`06:00.58`	`captain_proton`	`http://sdg.lcs.mit.edu/pubs/2000/issta00.pdf <-- we should use this for bzflag :)`
`06:01.12`	`scanline`	`hehe`
`06:01.31`	`learner`	`oo.. good one. I'll have to read that.`
`06:02.04`	`learner`	`I've already got the solver.. just need the constraints.. :)`
`06:02.36`	`captain_proton`	`ibot: change 40000 pounds to dollars`
`06:02.52`	`captain_proton`	`ibot: change 40000 .uk to .us`
`06:03.00`	`captain_proton`	`ibot: change 40000 .uk to .usd`
`06:03.08`	`captain_proton`	`bah`
`06:03.13`	`captain_proton`	`ibot: change 40000 .gbp to .usd`
`06:03.37`	`learner`	`ibot change 40000 pound to dollar`
`06:03.48`	`learner`	`eek`
`06:04.00`	`captain_proton`	`hehe`
`06:04.45`	`learner`	`got some cash to blow, cap?`
`06:04.47`	`fiberchunks`	`what is an FK?`
`06:04.51`	`captain_proton`	`heh, nope`
`06:05.12`	`learner`	`most of us learn about that in sex-ed, fiber.. :)`
`06:05.21`	`fiberchunks`	`:)`
`06:05.29`	`fiberchunks`	`I failed sex-ed ;)`
`06:05.51`	`TerryC`	`Donate all of your cash to the Terry Caulfield in Huron, SD charity! :-)`
`06:06.05`	`TerryC`	`captain_proton: You back from vacation?`
`06:06.23`	`fiberchunks`	`ibot> what is FKP`
`06:06.23`		`fiberchunks: what are you talking about?`
`06:06.38`	`fiberchunks`	`~google for FKP`
`06:06.49`	`TerryC`	`~dict FK`
`06:06.53`	`learner`	`~dict fkp`
`06:07.03`	`fiberchunks`	`ah, falklands`
`06:07.04`	`learner`	`ah, cool`
`06:07.55`	`fiberchunks`	`ditto that - gnite`
`06:08.46`	`TerryC`	`See yu in the morning`
`06:09.24`	`*** join/#bzflag paul (~paulj@itg-gw.cr008.cwt.esat.net)`
`06:10.09`	`TerryC`	`Hi`
`06:20.54`	`MrApathyCream`	`if only learner was around to update his servers`
`06:22.28`	`MrApathyCream`	`wow, he really did%b go to bed`
`06:22.39`	`MrApathyCream`	`arg`
`06:22.47`	`MrApathyCream`	`did`
`06:22.56`	`MrApathyCream`	`silly case sensy`
`06:28.27`	`MrApathyCream`	`has the snow melted in huron yet?`
`06:31.21`	`CIA`	`03dbrosius * 12bzflag/ (6 files in 3 dirs): Masquerade Flag`
`06:31.21`	`MrApathyCream`	`arg is the capn there?`
`06:31.49`	`MrApathyCream`	`Nego doesn't work as discussed, as good flags are added before bad ones`
`06:32.00`	`MrApathyCream`	`we need to renumber them good=positive, bad = negative`
`06:32.17`	`scanline`	`why does good vs bad affect negotiation?`
`06:35.54`	`MrApathyCream`	`because if the client adds a good flag, it necessarily bumps the ids of all the bad flags up by one`
`06:36.13`	`MrApathyCream`	`we don't currently map ids`
`06:36.17`	`scanline`	`but isn't that one of the things negotiation is there to cope with?`
`06:36.25`	`MrApathyCream`	`we assume if you have a flag, it's the same number as the server`
`06:36.34`	`scanline`	`but but but... that's what the MsgNegotiateFlags reply does?`
`06:36.49`	`MrApathyCream`	`perhaps, it could :)`
`06:36.53`	`scanline`	`argh`
`06:37.23`	`scanline`	`so this means my pybzflag client will work fine because it does map flags properly, but if the pybzflag server numbers flags differently it will break`
`06:37.34`	`MrApathyCream`	`currently`
`06:37.42`	`scanline`	`instead of renumbering the flags, how about just mapping them on the client like the protocol says you should?`
`06:37.44`	`MrApathyCream`	`i wonder how many messages send flag ids`
`06:38.24`	`MrApathyCream`	`So each client would need to build a server->client map of ids and every message that comes in convert, eh`
`06:38.35`	`MrApathyCream`	`i suppose that's doable. seems kinda ugly tho`
`06:38.45`	`scanline`	`that looks like the way it's supposed to work`
`06:38.57`	`scanline`	`according to the protocol doc anyway, and I think captain_proton agreed`
`06:39.03`	`MrApathyCream`	`or perhaps, we drop ids altogether, and just use abbreviations, after all they are just 2 bytes, like the ids`
`06:39.25`	`scanline`	`heh`
`06:39.43`	`MrApathyCream`	`would need to switch from arrays to maps`
`06:39.50`	`learner`	`heheh, no I didn't`
`06:40.02`	`MrApathyCream`	`learner new MQ flag to try`
`06:40.09`	`learner`	`MQ?`
`06:40.13`	`MrApathyCream`	`Masquerade`
`06:40.17`	`MrApathyCream`	`from 1.8`
`06:40.30`	`MrApathyCream`	`out of the hud, a MQ'ed tank looks like a teammate`
`06:40.59`	`MrApathyCream`	`all other indications (radar, targetting, bullets, etc) are normal`
`06:41.16`	`MrApathyCream`	`MQ is not allowed in worlds that don't have teams`
`06:41.20`	`MrApathyCream`	`teams being the colors`
`06:41.30`	`learner`	`there are colors with bunny, black and white`
`06:41.52`	`MrApathyCream`	`yes, actually if the bunny had masquerade, that might be funny`
`06:42.04`	`MrApathyCream`	`maybe i'll reenable that`
`06:42.34`	`MrApathyCream`	`we got nego problems`
`06:42.48`	`MrApathyCream`	`currently we do no flag id mapping`
`06:42.54`	`MrApathyCream`	`only existance checks`
`06:42.58`	`scanline`	`:)`
`06:42.59`	`learner`	`build is borked`
`06:43.00`	`learner`	for i in `ls $DIR` ; do
`06:43.00`	`learner`	`<PROTECTED>`
`06:43.00`	`learner`	`<PROTECTED>`
`06:43.00`	`learner`	`<PROTECTED>`
`06:43.00`	`learner`	`<PROTECTED>`
`06:43.02`	`learner`	`<PROTECTED>`
`06:43.04`	`learner`	`<PROTECTED>`
`06:43.06`	`learner`	`<PROTECTED>`
`06:43.08`	`learner`	`<PROTECTED>`
`06:43.10`	`learner`	`<PROTECTED>`
`06:43.14`	`learner`	`doneheheh, oops`
`06:43.16`	`learner`	`sry`
`06:43.17`	`MrApathyCream`	`Problem is if we add a new good flag, bad flag ids are necessarily affected`
`06:43.34`	`MrApathyCream`	`so if client has a good flag that the server doesn't, the bad flags won't line up by id`
`06:43.44`	`learner`	TankSceneNode.cxx: In member function `virtual void
`06:43.44`	`learner`	`<PROTECTED>`
`06:43.46`	`learner`	TankSceneNode.cxx:562: `class TankSceneNode' has no member named `colorblind'
`06:43.53`	`captain_proton`	`buh`
`06:44.01`	`MrApathyCream`	`we could map server->client ids in the client`
`06:44.22`	`MrApathyCream`	`or we could just nuke the idea of ids altogehter, and just use abbrevs`
`06:44.26`	`captain_proton`	`making bad flags - isn't good, because then we can't add additional flag groups (like goofy)`
`06:44.34`	`scanline`	`the mapping is what the protocol doc implies it already does :P`
`06:44.34`	`MrApathyCream`	`after all they are just two bytes like the ids`
`06:44.45`	`MrApathyCream`	`but we'd need to switch to map data structures for flags, prollly`
`06:45.02`	`MrApathyCream`	`or we could make good flags positive and bad flags negative`
`06:45.41`	`MrApathyCream`	`learner: looking`
`06:45.59`	`MrApathyCream`	`captain_proton: mapping of ids, there are probably a bunch of messages that have ids.`
`06:46.11`	`MrApathyCream`	`the mapping would probably smell like the playerid mapping that was in the server before`
`06:46.17`	`MrApathyCream`	`which was kind of stanky`
`06:46.28`	`captain_proton`	`i kind of like the idea of switching to the abbrevs`
`06:46.38`	`MrApathyCream`	`yea, it appeals to me too`
`06:46.39`	`captain_proton`	`would be debugging w/ packet captures simpler too`
`06:46.44`	`MrApathyCream`	`yes`
`06:47.03`	`MrApathyCream`	`would have to switch from arrays to maps then`
`06:47.09`	`MrApathyCream`	`but otherwise should be straightforward`
`06:47.51`	`MrApathyCream`	`learner: here's my 562`
`06:47.52`	`MrApathyCream`	`<PROTECTED>`
`06:48.14`	`learner`	`Thread 0 Crashed:`
`06:48.14`	`learner`	`<PROTECTED>`
`06:48.14`	`learner`	`<PROTECTED>`
`06:48.14`	`learner`	`<PROTECTED>`
`06:48.27`	`MrApathyCream`	`perhaps i didn't check it in`
`06:48.29`	`MrApathyCream`	`lemme look`
`06:49.08`	`learner`	`that second one's a different "bug" -- it's crashing while trying to find the "MQ" flag`
`06:49.15`	`learner`	`which doesn't exist yet`
`06:49.31`	`CIA`	`03dbrosius * 12bzflag/src/geometry (TankSceneNode.cxx): Masquerade Flag`
`06:49.44`	`learner`	`so it crashes.. :)`
`06:50.37`	`MrApathyCream`	`hmm, looks like commit failed somewhere`
`06:50.47`	`learner`	`builds now`
`06:51.13`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/ (4 files in 3 dirs): The World object can now handle loading and saving from binary and text worlds`
`06:51.50`	`CIA`	`03dbrosius * 12bzflag/src/common (Flag.cxx): Masquerade Flag`
`06:51.52`	`MrApathyCream`	`learner: ok try again`
`06:52.24`	`learner`	`it's autobuilding now`
`06:53.12`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/BZFlag/Flag (List.py): Masquerade Flag`
`06:53.54`	`MrApathyCream`	`wow, near automatic upgrade to pybzflag`
`06:54.15`	`learner`	`ok, check it`
`06:54.18`	`MrApathyCream`	`ok`
`06:54.46`	`learner`	`poor cap.. needs someone to tuck him in`
`06:55.08`	`learner`	`ooo.. seeing server messages again`
`06:55.21`	`learner`	`could you chat, max?`
`06:55.27`	`learner`	`s/x/c/`
`06:55.59`	`MrApathyCream`	`learner: didn't try`
`06:56.01`	`MrApathyCream`	`captain_proton: huh?`
`06:56.07`	`captain_proton`	`http://bzflag.org/wiki/FlagList?action=show`
`06:56.22`	`captain_proton`	`'member that?`
`06:56.32`	`MrApathyCream`	`isn't it already marked as done?`
`06:56.38`	`captain_proton`	`no`
`06:56.42`	`captain_proton`	`since it wasn't done in 1.7`
`06:56.42`	`learner`	`ok, I'm really off to bed now`
`06:56.52`	`MrApathyCream`	`ah ok`
`06:57.27`	`learner`	`feel free to recommit as needed, it'll rebuild every 10 minutes`
`06:57.33`	`learner`	`g'nite`
`06:58.04`	`MrApathyCream`	`ok`
`06:58.10`	`MrApathyCream`	`captain_proton: so what do we do about nego?`
`06:58.29`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/ (2 files in 2 dirs): Unbreak flaglist.py`
`06:59.15`	`captain_proton`	`MrApathyCream: my vote goes for abbrevs`
`06:59.36`	`MrApathyCream`	`i go by what the fist says`
`06:59.46`	`MrApathyCream`	`(the colors are hideously attractive btw)`
`06:59.56`	`scanline`	`so that means the negotiation reply in its current form isn't necessary`
`07:00.04`	`MrApathyCream`	`yes`
`07:00.25`	`scanline`	`how about replacing that mess with a single message that either indicates success or provides a list of flags the client is missing?`
`07:00.49`	`MrApathyCream`	`reasonable`
`07:01.16`	`* topic/#bzflag by captain_proton -> http://BZFlag.org/ \|\| http://list.BZFlag.org/ \|\| http://www.cafeshops.com/bzflag \|\| http://stats.BZFlag.org/ \|\| http://bzbb.bzflag.org (forums) \|\| g2 released 2003-06-17 \|\| http://www.bzflag.org/wiki/WorkInProgress \|\| when you modify a header, please put javadoc-style / comments */ in! \|\| cvs snapshots: http://sfsnap.babylonia.flatirons.org/ \|\| http://brlcad.org/bzflag/source \|\| having trouble with keys in 1.9? http://bzflag.org/wi`
`07:01.18`	`captain_proton`	`bah!`
`07:01.21`	`scanline`	`contents of the message could just be a list of flag abbreviations- if it's empty, success`
`07:01.37`	`scanline`	`also, why does the negotiation message from client to server have a count of the number of flags it contains?`
`07:01.41`	`scanline`	`the server can get that from the message length`
`07:01.44`	`* topic/#bzflag by captain_proton -> http://BZFlag.org/ \|\| http://list.BZFlag.org/ \|\| http://www.cafeshops.com/bzflag \|\| http://stats.BZFlag.org/ \|\| http://bzbb.bzflag.org (forums) \|\| http://www.bzflag.org/wiki/WorkInProgress \|\| when you modify a header, please put javadoc-style / comments */ in! \|\| cvs snapshots: http://sfsnap.babylonia.flatirons.org/ \|\| http://brlcad.org/bzflag/source \|\| having trouble with keys in 1.9? http://bzflag.org/wiki/NewBindings`
`07:01.56`	`MrApathyCream`	`scanline: for easy parsing by the server`
`07:02.30`	`scanline`	`I don't see how doing it securely with the current format is any easier than doing it without the extra length field`
`07:02.59`	`MrApathyCream`	`well, you'd have to rely on the message length, and do some math`
`07:03.09`	`MrApathyCream`	`:)`
`07:03.18`	`scanline`	`right, but you have to do that anyway to make sure you don't get a message that's shorter than it's supposed to be, and segfault`
`07:03.30`	`MrApathyCream`	`captain_proton: i guess that would mean that the flag list as found in global.h`
`07:03.41`	`MrApathyCream`	`scanline: in theory :)`
`07:03.59`	`scanline`	`bleh`
`07:04.02`	`MrApathyCream`	`captain_proton: sorry, would be nixed`
`07:04.12`	`captain_proton`	`MrApathyCream: yay!`
`07:04.41`	`MrApathyCream`	`It really would just be in the Flag.cxx Flag::Desc ctors`
`07:05.10`	`MrApathyCream`	`lemmee see, is the server the only entity that keeps lists of flags?`
`07:05.49`	`MrApathyCream`	`client either has 1 or not, so no big changes..`
`07:06.02`	`MrApathyCream`	`only on the server would there be some work, it would seem`
`07:06.36`	`MrApathyCream`	`protocol.h doesn't even really change`
`07:06.53`	`MrApathyCream`	`(sizes anyway)`
`07:07.24`	`MrApathyCream`	`hmm, even better, prhaps.`
`07:07.36`	`MrApathyCream`	`get rid of abbrevs, and renumber the ids with the abbrevs`
`07:08.04`	`MrApathyCream`	`would still need maps, but treat the abbrevs as shorts`
`07:08.29`	`MrApathyCream`	`could reconvert to strings for screen on demand`
`07:09.04`	`captain_proton`	`screen on demand?`
`07:09.21`	`MrApathyCream`	`well, the id is just the ascii values of the letters`
`07:09.32`	`MrApathyCream`	`put em in a char* and you got abbrevs`
`07:09.38`	`captain_proton`	`yep\`
`07:09.39`	`MrApathyCream`	`(or tack a 0 on the end)`
`07:11.54`	`MrApathyCream`	`--lemmee try this.. see if we get a nibble from Riker`
`07:11.54`	`CIA`	`03dbrosius * 12bzflag/ (TODO): Flag todos`
`07:13.05`	`CIA`	`03davidtrowbridge * 12bzflag/src/bzflag (playing.cxx):`
`07:13.06`	`CIA`	`destruct, add:`
`07:13.06`	`CIA`	`bind Delete down destruct`
`07:13.18`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/ (5 files in 3 dirs): Wrote a simple world viewer`
`07:14.22`	`captain_proton`	`once again, bzflag leads the CIA :)`
`07:14.40`	`captain_proton`	`seems like most of the commits occur between 8pm and 2am mountain time`
`07:15.32`	`captain_proton`	`heh`
`07:16.00`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/ (TODO): Update TODO list for pybzflag`
`07:21.03`	`captain_proton`	`yay for compiling with -Werror`
`07:23.46`	`CIA`	`03davidtrowbridge * 12bzflag/src/bzflag (playing.cxx):`
`07:23.47`	`CIA`	`configified pause, add`
`07:23.47`	`CIA`	`bind Pause down pause`
`07:23.48`	`CIA`	`bind P down pause`
`07:26.00`	`CIA`	`03davidtrowbridge * 12bzflag/src/bzflag (playing.cxx):`
`07:26.00`	`CIA`	`showscore, add`
`07:26.01`	`CIA`	`bind S down "toggle showscore"`
`07:27.17`	`MrApathyCream`	`should you keep the choice you made or switch doors?`
`07:28.28`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/BZFlag (2 files in 2 dirs): Support for CTF bases in World and OverheadView`
`07:29.33`	`captain_proton`	`harumph, how did a moth get in here`
`07:32.50`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/BZFlag (2 files in 2 dirs): Insert the implied Wall objects when loading from a text world`
`07:33.46`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/BZFlag (World.py): oops`
`07:35.48`	`scanline`	`ooh, my typo helped!`
`07:35.51`	`MrApathyCream`	`hehe`
`07:37.21`	`MrApathyCream`	`hmmm, i wonder if this is legal`
`07:37.36`	`MrApathyCream`	`uint16_t v = 'GM';`
`07:37.50`	`scanline`	`haha`
`07:38.11`	`MrApathyCream`	`it should be`
`07:38.29`	`scanline`	`#define FLAG_ABBREVIATION(s) ((s[0]<<8)\|s[1])`
`07:38.30`	`scanline`	`or something`
`07:38.36`	`MrApathyCream`	`yah`
`07:38.44`	`CIA`	`03dbrosius * 12bzflag/ (4 files in 3 dirs): Seer Flag`
`07:38.50`	`captain_proton`	`yay for flags!`
`07:39.13`	`captain_proton`	`NJ might be the next easiest to implement`
`07:39.18`	`captain_proton`	`though i vote for theif next`
`07:39.20`	`captain_proton`	`=)`
`07:39.31`	`captain_proton`	`TH was my favorite out of all the flags we did in 1.8`
`07:39.53`	`MrApathyCream`	`I'll actually have to do some real work to get TH working`
`07:39.54`	`MrApathyCream`	`:)`
`07:40.10`	`MrApathyCream`	`like root around in the 1.8 code`
`07:41.04`	`MrApathyCream`	`BZFlag #18 most active`
`07:41.17`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/BZFlag (World.py): Remove extra whitespace in World.loadText (hi CIA)`
`07:41.47`	`captain_proton`	`http://navi.picogui.org/cgi-bin/cia_stats.cgi?sort=daily_D`
`07:42.01`	`captain_proton`	`gnome and kde don't got nuthin on us!`
`07:42.14`	`scanline`	`=)`
`07:42.43`	`scanline`	`hey, they added dancer. cool`
`07:42.55`	`scanline`	`74 projects? when did this happen?`
`07:43.13`	`MrApathyCream`	`welp, off to sleep`
`07:43.25`	`captain_proton`	`wow`
`07:43.35`	`captain_proton`	`'night MrApathyCream`
`07:43.44`	`scanline`	`bye MrApathyCream`
`07:45.39`	`MrApathyCream`	`seedchas`
`07:47.21`	`captain_proton`	`scanline: can you join xmission?`
`07:47.30`	`CIA`	`03dbrosius * 12bzflag/win32 (2 files): Remove reference to defunct BzfString`
`07:47.36`	`scanline`	`yep`
`07:48.08`	`scanline`	`hm.. whenver I click, it toggles my gamma between whatever bzflag has it at, and the usual 1.0`
`07:48.14`	`captain_proton`	`thanks`
`07:48.51`	`scanline`	`sure`
`07:55.00`	`CIA`	`03davidtrowbridge * 12bzflag/src/bzflag (playing.cxx):`
`07:55.00`	`CIA`	`moved send to commands:`
`07:55.01`	`CIA`	`bind M down "send team"`
`07:55.01`	`CIA`	`bind N down "send all"`
`07:55.02`	`CIA`	`bind P down pause`
`07:55.05`	`CIA`	`bind S down "toggle showscore"`
`07:55.12`	`captain_proton`	`erg`
`07:55.23`	`captain_proton`	`that did not turn out as i wanted`
`07:55.56`	`captain_proton`	`oh well`
`07:56.00`	`captain_proton`	`people can use the NewBindings page`
`07:58.17`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/ (2 files in 2 dirs): Added MsgShotEnd, MsgKilled, and MsgScore protocol classes`
`08:11.57`	`scanline`	`heey captain_proton...`
`08:12.02`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/ (4 files in 3 dirs): Started a chat client for pybzflag`
`08:12.10`	`scanline`	`I can say hello from this chat client, and the bzflag client receives it`
`08:12.17`	`scanline`	`so I suppose the messaging is broken on the transmit end`
`08:14.10`	`captain_proton`	`probably, i've been meaning to do a packet capture`
`08:14.13`	`captain_proton`	`hmm`
`08:14.35`	`captain_proton`	`its amazing...i had forgotten that the gamma correction implementation i did for 1.8's screenshots was done without any knowledge of how gamma actually worked`
`08:14.39`	`captain_proton`	`and i just guessed =)`
`08:14.44`	`scanline`	`hehe`
`08:15.30`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/BZFlag (2 files in 2 dirs): Silence some of the ProtocolWarnings`
`08:15.47`	`CIA`	`03davidtrowbridge * 12bzflag/src/bzflag (playing.cxx): screenshot, sans gamma. you're not allowed to bind it if you can't figure out how`
`08:15.56`	`captain_proton`	`ugh, late`
`08:20.33`	`captain_proton`	`i'm gonna hit the sack`
`08:20.38`	`scanline`	`have fun`
`08:20.41`	`captain_proton`	`i expect you to keep bzflag's lead going ;)`
`08:20.45`	`scanline`	`hehe`
`08:23.00`	`*** join/#bzflag eddienull (~kevin@adsl-63-195-130-242.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net)`
`08:31.12`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/ (2 files in 2 dirs): Adding a command line chat client`
`08:33.18`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/ (chat.py): Don't send blank lines`
`08:34.00`	`scanline`	`hehe...`
`08:34.05`	`scanline`	`you can pipe programs into the chat client =)`
`08:45.26`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Added --quiet and --silent options to the simple chat client`
`08:45.51`	`*** join/#bzflag MrCooper (~daenzer@dclient80-218-118-173.hispeed.ch)`
`08:49.40`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/ (chat.py): Added more comments to the chat client, allow blank lines`
`08:50.05`	`scanline`	`teehee`
`08:50.06`	`scanline`	`uptime \| ./chat.py -s xmission.bzflag.org:5156 -q -c "Uptime"`
`08:55.57`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/BZFlag (Network.py): Missing self parameter for EventLoop.onNonfatalException()`
`09:08.03`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/BZFlag (Client.py): Issue a ProtocolWarning rather than a ProtocolError when unknown flags are returned after negotiation`
`09:09.33`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/BZFlag/Flag (List.py): Added Seer flag`
`09:14.27`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/ (chat.py): Implemented --wait option`
`09:19.14`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/ (chat.py): Implemented --view option to show an overhead view of the game during chat`
`09:26.09`	`scanline`	`naptime`
`10:14.12`	`*** join/#bzflag larsl_56k (~larsl@md4690e7b.utfors.se)`
`10:16.51`	`*** join/#bzflag david_v (~david_v@c213-200-135-241.cm-upc.chello.se)`
`10:27.29`	`*** join/#bzflag sussi ([LL]43452@217-68-182-166.cable.primacom.net)`
`11:00.53`	`Chestal`	hmm, CVS doesn't compile for me: playing.cxx:5673: no matching function for call to `LocalPlayer::addPlayer (SceneDatabase *&, bool, bool)'
`11:01.52`	`sussi`	`hi`
`11:07.49`	`*** join/#bzflag mmu_man (~revol@ALyon-209-1-33-227.w81-249.abo.wanadoo.fr)`
`11:09.55`	`CIA`	`03chestal * 12bzflag/ (15 files in 3 dirs): it's the year of the goat`
`11:10.21`	`larsl_56k`	`What?`
`11:11.21`	`Chestal`	`proton forgot to adjust the (C) from 2002 to 2003 when he integrated some 1.8 files`
`11:12.02`	`larsl_56k`	`I see.`
`11:13.25`	`larsl_56k`	`Does CVS still not compile for you?`
`11:13.35`	`Chestal`	`yes`
`11:15.47`	`larsl_56k`	`Any idea what this might be: http://www.d.kth.se/~d00-llu/bzflag-cylinder.png`
`11:15.58`	`*** join/#bzflag david_v (~david_v@c213-200-135-241.cm-upc.chello.se)`
`11:19.52`	`Chestal`	`hmm, strange`
`11:20.00`	`Chestal`	`isn't the Web CVS up to date?`
`11:20.54`	`Chestal`	`it's the masquerade flag which messed things up`
`11:22.08`	`larsl_56k`	`I think the web CVS is using the backup server, which is updated every 24 hours.`
`11:22.17`	`larsl_56k`	`It's very annoying.`
`11:22.41`	`larsl_56k`	`Current CVS build for me now.`
`11:28.46`	`CIA`	`03chestal * 12bzflag/src/bzflag (playing.cxx): Player::addPlayer() expects a pointer now, not a bool`
`11:31.43`	`Chestal`	`I feelsilly asking this: but what is the useless flag used for?`
`11:32.42`	`larsl_56k`	`I have no idea.`
`11:32.54`	`larsl_56k`	`Probably nothing. =)`
`13:35.56`	`*** join/#bzflag MrCooper (~daenzer@dclient80-218-118-173.hispeed.ch)`
`14:07.40`	`*** join/#bzflag GJ (~john@adsl-78-197-160.sdf.bellsouth.net)`
`14:10.08`	`*** join/#bzflag mmu (~revol@ALyon-209-1-19-58.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr)`
`14:17.26`	`learner`	`ack!!`
`14:17.53`	`doughecka`	`learner seems to be either slow or has alot of lag`
`14:18.01`	`doughecka`	`:)`
`14:20.33`	`doughecka`	`:)`
`14:27.44`	`doughecka`	`~usair flight 781`
`14:28.39`	`doughecka`	`http://www.openprojects.net/`
`14:38.59`	`learner`	`wow, that used to be a different site..`
`15:18.26`	`*** join/#bzflag Legolas (~Legolas@adsl-68-73-89-127.dsl.emhril.ameritech.net)`
`15:21.34`	`Legolas`	`is anybody there?`
`15:21.41`	`Chestal`	`hi Elf`
`15:21.44`	`Legolas`	`oh`
`15:21.47`	`Legolas`	`i have a question`
`15:22.09`	`Legolas`	`have been trying to get ahold of everybody`
`15:22.26`	`Legolas`	`in bzedit,how high can a tank jump?`
`15:22.49`	`Legolas`	`do you know?`
`15:23.01`	`Chestal`	`uhm, I never used bzedit`
`15:23.26`	`Chestal`	`initial jumpvelocity is 19m/s`
`15:23.37`	`Legolas`	`because im making a map and i don't want to be too low but at the same time be too high to jump on`
`15:23.44`	`Chestal`	`and gravity is earth gravity, so you can calc it :-)`
`15:23.50`	`Legolas`	`lol`
`15:24.14`	`Legolas`	`ok`
`15:24.27`	`Legolas`	`ill try to get ahold of spiff or proton`
`15:24.31`	`Legolas`	`brb`
`15:25.39`	`Chestal`	`my calculation yields 18.4m`
`15:28.31`	`CIA`	`03chestal * 12bzflag/src/bzfs (bzfs.cxx): delete[] what has been newed[]`
`15:30.26`	`Legolas`	`ya`
`15:30.33`	`Legolas`	`iron foot said 18`
`15:31.00`	`Legolas`	`how did you calculate it?`
`15:31.06`	`Legolas`	`c++?`
`15:31.08`	`Legolas`	`lol`
`15:31.58`	`*** join/#bzflag TimRiker (~timr@proxyle01.ext.ti.com)`
`15:32.00`	`*** mode/#bzflag [+o TimRiker] by ChanServ`
`15:32.26`	`Legolas`	`its tim riker!`
`15:32.30`	`Legolas`	`wow!`
`15:34.04`	`TimRiker`	`It's Legolas! wow! ;-)`
`15:34.09`	`Legolas`	`lol`
`15:34.18`	`Legolas`	`i nothing special really`
`15:34.25`	`Legolas`	`just a player`
`15:34.30`	`Legolas`	`never seen you around`
`15:35.05`	`Chestal`	`Legolas: a calculator would be enough`
`15:35.09`	`Chestal`	`hi Tim`
`15:35.19`	`Chestal`	`what are your thought about this ping/ttl stuff?`
`15:37.26`	`Chestal`	`actually, I think I don't really get it. What are the pings used for exactly?`
`15:38.13`	`Chestal`	`is it all multicast?`
`15:40.44`	`*** join/#bzflag Patlabor221 (~jeffm@208.48.199.214)`
`15:40.46`	`*** mode/#bzflag [+o Patlabor221] by ChanServ`
`15:47.08`	`TimRiker`	`pings should be used for server discovery on a LAN. they're likely broken and have been for a while.`
`15:47.51`	`TimRiker`	`I'd be happy with responding to pings on the default server port only so you can't lan discover a server on an alternate port number.`
`15:49.52`	`TimRiker`	`~spell override`
`15:49.52`		`'override' may be spelled correctly`
`15:50.13`	`Chestal`	`hmm, right now pings seem to be part of the multicast handling`
`15:50.41`	`Chestal`	`somehow it seems to be possible to do server discovcery over multicast without list server?`
`15:50.54`	`Chestal`	`I feel like ripping it all out`
`15:54.53`	`TimRiker`	`it used to be possible, yes. iirc server discovery on a lan was multicast and the server stopped listening to multicast ports that's what broke.`
`15:55.24`	`TimRiker`	`since it really only works on a lan and not through routers, I'd like to change it to a broadcast discovery on the server default udp port.`
`15:56.08`	`TimRiker`	`and then add a ton of info to the returned data. as much as we can fit. player names, scores, teams, etc if possible.`
`15:56.14`	`*** join/#bzflag SGI (~sgi-tank@pcp01642968pcs.sothfd01.mi.comcast.net)`
`15:56.32`	`SGI`	`hi`
`15:56.39`	`TimRiker`	`server comment... that comes from the list server now, but not from lan discovery.`
`15:56.47`	`Chestal`	`I just would like to get rid of all the different communication channels for now`
`15:56.59`	`Chestal`	`the client really has no playerlink anymore`
`15:57.04`	`Chestal`	`only a serverlink`
`15:57.42`	`Legolas`	`hi sgi!`
`15:57.54`	`Legolas`	`was editing a map`
`15:58.18`	`SGI`	`BYE`
`16:00.20`	`TimRiker`	`captain_proton: you turned screenshot on in default compiles?`
`16:00.53`	`*** join/#bzflag JBDiGriz (~JBDiGriz@216.188.65.26)`
`16:01.51`	`*** join/#bzflag learnerAtWork (sean@chr160dhcp1675.chrchv01.md.comcast.net)`
`16:15.59`	`*** join/#bzflag Patlabor221dead (~jeffm@208.48.199.214)`
`16:16.58`	`*** mode/#bzflag [+o patlabor221] by ChanServ`
`16:19.17`	`*** join/#bzflag david_v (~david_v@c213-200-135-241.cm-upc.chello.se)`
`16:21.31`	`*** join/#bzflag Smilodon (~pepe@148.Red-81-42-199.pooles.rima-tde.net)`
`16:24.32`	`Smilodon`	`Everybody see what the flag is *everytime`
`16:32.35`	`Chestal`	`Pat: ?`
`16:32.38`	`Chestal`	`grmpf`
`16:32.57`	`learnerAtWork`	`you instow fear`
`16:32.58`	`*** join/#bzflag Mayhem (~Mayhem@dsl-217-155-141-174.zen.co.uk)`
`16:33.31`	`Smilodon`	`Why not to "legalize" this obvious cheat?`
`16:33.32`	`JBDiGriz`	`learnerAtWork: Are you typing from inside a grue?`
`16:33.47`	`learnerAtWork`	`I'm talking to the bear.. :)`
`16:34.07`	`JBDiGriz`	`With your bare hands against his bear hands?`
`16:35.03`	`learnerAtWork`	`We're playing paddy-cake`
`16:36.06`	`fiberchunks`	`don't let im win, or you'll be playing learner-cakes`
`16:36.33`	`learnerAtWork`	`Smilodon: which cheat?`
`16:36.33`	`fiberchunks`	`rather, DO let im win`
`16:36.38`	`learnerAtWork`	`heh`
`16:37.01`	`Smilodon`	`To see which flag is everytime, everywhere`
`16:37.44`	`Smilodon`	`Can you detect for sure who is using it?`
`16:38.13`	`Smilodon`	`You cannot`
`16:38.20`	`learnerAtWork`	`not without clients having to ask the server which flag is which`
`16:39.02`	`Smilodon`	`Yes, this is the issue: must ask the server`
`16:39.04`	`Smilodon`	`Then`
`16:39.20`	`learnerAtWork`	`hack away :)`
`16:39.22`	`Smilodon`	`The client automaticaly can remember it`
`16:40.23`	`Smilodon`	`Why cannot I see this implementation in the development pages?`
`16:40.31`	`learnerAtWork`	`remember is not so much the issue, since people can memorize where non-disappearing flags are anyways`
`16:40.37`	`Smilodon`	`This obvious implementation`
`16:40.51`	`Smilodon`	`Yes, it is for me`
`16:41.17`	`Smilodon`	`Why not let the program memorize? Have I a computer or not?`
`16:41.36`	`learnerAtWork`	`Why should it?`
`16:41.58`	`Smilodon`	`I must, then, modify the program an this is, technicaly but not actually, a cheat.`
`16:42.50`	`Smilodon`	`Because I am a person who thinks a computer mustr aid my task,`
`16:43.05`	`Smilodon`	`No mind the "task" is a game.`
`16:43.13`	`learnerAtWork`	`I'm not completely following you, so I'll let the powers at be chastize you later if you mess up.. :)`
`16:43.32`	`Chestal`	`it is a cheat, there's no debating that`
`16:43.49`	`Smilodon`	`Technically, nos actually`
`16:44.05`	`Chestal`	`actually, yes, it is :-)`
`16:44.16`	`learnerAtWork`	`are you talking about making a permanent change or just a change to your client?`
`16:44.20`	`*** join/#bzflag larsl_56k (~larsl@md469099e.utfors.se)`
`16:44.23`	`Smilodon`	`I can remember, I can use, e.g, my brother or a excel chart in order to memorize`
`16:44.28`	`Smilodon`	`IS this a cheat?`
`16:44.34`	`Smilodon`	`Permanent`
`16:44.44`	`Mayhem`	`remembering is not cheating, knowing in advance is`
`16:45.02`	`Chestal`	`Smilodon: you seem to be arguing that only things are cheats which violate the game physics, but that's only one particular class of cheating`
`16:45.06`	`larsl_56k`	`~xmission`
`16:45.14`	`Smilodon`	`Yes, more or less`
`16:45.33`	`Chestal`	`Smilodon: it would also be a cheat to implement a targeting indicator`
`16:45.52`	`Smilodon`	`What is this?`
`16:46.27`	`Smilodon`	`We have a very serious problem`
`16:46.28`	`Chestal`	`Smilodon: well, you could add a small indicator to the HUD that shows where you woudl have to aim to hit a tank (assuming that the tank will not change its course)`
`16:46.47`	`Smilodon`	`I can probe the most of people cheats about some topics`
`16:47.06`	`Smilodon`	`This wil not be a cheat at my idea`
`16:47.19`	`Smilodon`	`You cannot assure the hit`
`16:47.29`	`Chestal`	`no, but it's still cheating`
`16:47.42`	`Smilodon`	`You can include this issue (targeting) at the official progarm`
`16:47.50`	`Chestal`	`but we won't`
`16:47.58`	`Smilodon`	`If everybody uses it, it is not cheating`
`16:48.16`	`Chestal`	`yes, but the point is that it is not in the official version, so it wqould be a cheat`
`16:48.19`	`larsl_56k`	`Anything that gives you more information than the official client is a cheat.`
`16:48.23`	`Smilodon`	`Everybody can jump!!!!`
`16:48.30`	`Chestal`	`if everybody could fly, thenit wouldn't be a cheat either`
`16:48.45`	`Smilodon`	`This seems, when you are a novice, a kind of cheat`
`16:48.52`	`Chestal`	`the rules of the game are implicitly defined by the officialclient`
`16:48.52`	`Mayhem`	`but if we included all the cheats, the game would suck`
`16:49.05`	`Smilodon`	`Nobody can fly: you can ban this people!`
`16:49.10`	`learnerAtWork`	`just by the fact that you feel there is value in such a feature means it will give the player an advantage; a unique advantage over other players could be construed as cheating`
`16:49.20`	`Smilodon`	`The last issue have an anticheat system`
`16:49.27`	`learnerAtWork`	`if it was made standard, then sure, it wouldn't be a cheat`
`16:49.45`	`Smilodon`	`Yes, this is my point`
`16:49.57`	`Smilodon`	`You "legalize" a cheat: this is not a cheat`
`16:49.58`	`learnerAtWork`	`I personally wouldn't like that as a deafult`
`16:50.10`	`Chestal`	`grrrr`
`16:50.11`	`Smilodon`	`We are not speaking about drugs!!!!`
`16:50.19`	`Chestal`	`in fact we are`
`16:50.22`	`learnerAtWork`	`should we? :)`
`16:50.27`	`Smilodon`	`What about a jumping tank? :)))))))`
`16:50.35`	`Smilodon`	`What a thing!!!!`
`16:50.36`	`Smilodon`	`:)`
`16:50.49`	`learnerAtWork`	`heheh, yes, tanks can't jump -- that's a "bug" :)`
`16:51.02`	`Smilodon`	`I am not sure it is not a drug, but this is not the ponit :))))`
`16:51.26`	`Smilodon`	`You are, then, at my position: what kind of cheat is jump?`
`16:51.28`	`Chestal`	`learner: I'd be happy to fix it :-)`
`16:51.33`	`Smilodon`	`Everybody jumps!`
`16:51.51`	`Chestal`	`I don't`
`16:51.55`	`learnerAtWork`	`I don't`
`16:52.04`	`Mayhem`	`many servers don't allow jumping`
`16:52.06`	`JBDiGriz`	`I've seen learnerAtWork jump!`
`16:52.18`	`learnerAtWork`	`self-preservation`
`16:52.42`	`Smilodon`	`But you can`
`16:52.57`	`Chestal`	`bzflag src now consists of almost 1000 files`
`16:53.09`	`Smilodon`	`You may not memorize the flags, but you can. ETC:`
`16:53.15`	`Chestal`	`(which includes images etc.)`
`16:53.16`	`Smilodon`	`And?`
`16:53.19`	`learnerAtWork`	`yea, but only 650 or so of source, right Ches?`
`16:53.23`	`larsl_56k`	`I saw a cheater on xmission a few minutes ago, he was moving extremely fast and jumping very high. Doesn't xmission use speedkick?`
`16:53.57`	`Chestal`	`learner: if I only count .cxx/.c/.h it's only 362`
`16:54.17`	`Chestal`	`larsl: speed is only checked when on ground`
`16:54.21`	`learnerAtWork`	`hehe.. I just counted 367.. hrmmm`
`16:54.26`	`Smilodon`	`My issue is:We have a indetectable cheat, then, Can we somehow legalize this cheat in order to "deactivate" it?`
`16:54.31`	`JBDiGriz`	`bzflag rules are defined by the consortium of developers. If you want to create a separate game with different rules, there's nothing to stop you, but it would be nice if it didn't work with the bzflag servers.`
`16:54.58`	`Smilodon`	`No, you are not right`
`16:55.03`	`larsl_56k`	`Smilodon: What cheat are you talking about?`
`16:55.20`	`Chestal`	`SMilodon: we cannot legalize all possible undetectable cheats (where 'undetectable' is not quite right anyway)`
`16:55.23`	`Smilodon`	`The many, many persons who know`
`16:55.38`	`Smilodon`	`which flags are`
`16:55.43`	`Chestal`	`it's more like 'hard to detect automatically'`
`16:55.43`	`Smilodon`	`verytime, everywhere`
`16:55.49`	`larsl_56k`	`That might be fixed in 1.9.`
`16:55.51`	`Smilodon`	`I can prove this`
`16:56.04`	`Mayhem`	`Has everyone read http://www.bzflag.org/wiki/SubtleCheats ?`
`16:56.05`	`larsl_56k`	`By not telling the client what type a flag is until it picks it up.`
`16:56.32`	`JBDiGriz`	`larsl_56k: The only problem is flags that were previously dropped, but didn't disappear.`
`16:56.36`	`Smilodon`	`You can detect or suspect, a cheater, but you cannot prove it`
`16:56.57`	`Smilodon`	`Prove it, you know, is a legal prevention before the accusation`
`16:57.53`	`larsl_56k`	`Smilodon: BZFlag doesn't have anything like that. The admin of a server is God-Emperor - he kan kick or ban anyone he wants to.`
`16:57.59`	`JBDiGriz`	`The servers are run at the good graces of the admins. They don't have to prove anything.`
`16:58.00`	`larsl_56k`	`No proof needed.`
`16:58.06`	`Smilodon`	`I satatistically prove that many people is using it, but I cannot prove a *particular^person is using it`
`16:58.47`	`learnerAtWork`	`the cheat could be "fixed" by making the server identify flags and making all flags disappear after release`
`16:58.49`	`Smilodon`	`I am speaking about the project, not the use of it: people cheats!`
`16:58.49`	`Chestal`	`IMHO if picking up the samefags over and over is such an advantage, the game is not balanced on this server`
`16:59.12`	`learnerAtWork`	`I doubt you could even statistically prove it smilodon, at least unrefutibly`
`16:59.14`	`JBDiGriz`	`So use your abilities to come up with a way of making it more difficult to cheat. We have a task for this, and the community would appreciate it!`
`16:59.28`	`Smilodon`	`Yes, learner, then, why not a system to memorize the flags left`
`17:00.04`	`learnerAtWork`	`eh?`
`17:00.10`	`Smilodon`	`It is a statistical prove, is not a mathematical prove, but I am sure this wil satisfie you.`
`17:00.36`	`JBDiGriz`	`Why not a system which doesn't specify what a flag is until it is picked up?`
`17:00.38`	`Smilodon`	`You get a flag and drop it: the program can memorize fior you`
`17:00.44`	`larsl_56k`	`We could leave the dropped flags around for 10 seconds or so, and then reset them - enough time for someone to pick it up if he was hunting the flag carrier to get that particular flag.`
`17:00.46`	`Smilodon`	`You own this information!`
`17:01.04`	`Mayhem`	`if the program does the memorising, that means you need to use less of your own skill`
`17:01.12`	`Chestal`	`larsl: I guess remembering where the flags are was meant to be part of the game`
`17:01.35`	`JBDiGriz`	`larsl_56k: It changes some of the strategy. I will often try to memorize some flags for future use against other flags.`
`17:01.44`	`Smilodon`	`This is irrelevant: the radar shows the buildings: what about my skills about it?`
`17:01.57`	`Chestal`	`but as I am bad at remembering, it would be ok for me to change this :-)`
`17:02.05`	`larsl_56k`	`Me too. =)`
`17:02.06`	`Smilodon`	`I can remember the buildings`
`17:02.18`	`Chestal`	`it's also a problem when you specify which flags there should be`
`17:02.20`	`learnerAtWork`	`Smilodon: if you could make it a server-side option, I don't think there'd be as much resistance`
`17:02.24`	`Chestal`	`say, you allow only 1 GM flag`
`17:02.40`	`Chestal`	`when you have it and drop it (mayeb because you are dead) and it vanishes, it will respawn elsewhere`
`17:02.47`	`Chestal`	`when it's the only respawn at that time, you know it's the GM`
`17:02.48`	`learnerAtWork`	`but, then, that could require you to get flag logic into the server, still`
`17:02.57`	`JBDiGriz`	`I'm not as good a shot as Chestal, therefore I should program an advantage so that I can be as good a shot as he is? :-)`
`17:03.02`	`Smilodon`	`Of course, but everybody ought to use this, if not it is a cheat`
`17:03.05`	`larsl_56k`	`Chestal: Is that a problem? I've been using it all the time. =)`
`17:03.31`	`larsl_56k`	`Kill GM tank, look for new flags.`
`17:03.33`	`Chestal`	`larsl: as I rarely play with flags, it's not important tome. Just noticed that it is a bit strange`
`17:03.44`	`Chestal`	`I might prefer a 100% random flag assignment`
`17:03.45`	`JBDiGriz`	`Chestal: On some servers, it doesn't always have all of the flags available.`
`17:03.51`	`Chestal`	`so, type of flag is decided when picking up`
`17:03.53`	`learnerAtWork`	`Smilodon: everyone who connects to a server that has opted to use this feature would be using it`
`17:03.56`	`Smilodon`	`chestal: this is not a problem, the kind of flag is unknown before you get it (in my proposal)`
`17:04.08`	`Smilodon`	`Ok Learner`
`17:04.13`	`larsl_56k`	`Chestal: Yes, I agree. ID would be a problem, though.`
`17:04.42`	`Chestal`	`larsl_56k: yes,s o itmight be better todecide on the type on creatign the flag and have them always vanish on drop. Not sure`
`17:05.22`	`Smilodon`	`A little randomized system not seems a problem`
`17:05.43`	`learnerAtWork`	`but if I connect to ducati:5155 and that admin ahem doesn't want all flags to be identified, then the clients shouldn't`
`17:06.11`	`Chestal`	`learner: no problem there, because people tend to not use the best flag on that server anyway :-)`
`17:06.25`	`learnerAtWork`	`:-)`
`17:06.37`	`larsl_56k`	`And then we have another extremely easy cheat hack - ignore what the server says about flag ID, and always remember them.`
`17:06.50`	`learnerAtWork`	`which flag would that be, Chestal ? :)`
`17:06.53`	`Smilodon`	`this server is the hell for me`
`17:07.08`	`Chestal`	`learner: the all-mighty A`
`17:07.19`	`learnerAtWork`	`lol, :))`
`17:07.33`	`JBDiGriz`	`That's a great flag on that server. I just have trouble controlling the rate of turn!`
`17:07.48`	`Chestal`	`buf I must confess that I am not always good enough to wield as powerful a flag as A`
`17:07.55`	`Smilodon`	`Yes, larsl_56k, then we return to that of not get the information until you get the flag.`
`17:08.45`	`JBDiGriz`	`It would be nice if someone would decide to take it on as a project, and come up with a better solution. (nudge, nudge, hint, hint)`
`17:08.52`	`learnerAtWork`	`As soon as I get multiple flags going, I'm going to make a bunner server where bunny always only has jump, agility, speed, and some level of slightly wider vision :)`
`17:09.21`	`Smilodon`	`Yes, JBDiGriz.`
`17:09.29`	`Chestal`	`learner: tiny, a bunny is tiny`
`17:09.46`	`JBDiGriz`	`learnerAtWork: hunters are usually faster, but I like the other ideas!`
`17:10.59`	`learnerAtWork`	`Chestal: yes.. I forgot that one`
`17:11.15`	`Smilodon`	`Cloaking flag is useless, in fact`
`17:11.23`	`Smilodon`	`You know?`
`17:11.42`	`Smilodon`	`I saw a double subtil cheat`
`17:11.48`	`JBDiGriz`	`CL is useful for teaching people how to use radar. Not everyone has been playing for years.`
`17:12.05`	`learnerAtWork`	`quite`
`17:12.08`	`larsl_56k`	`It's also useful for hunting laser tanks.`
`17:12.09`	`Smilodon`	`A guy got this flag and you simply cannot hit on him`
`17:12.18`	`Smilodon`	`Very clever.`
`17:12.41`	`Smilodon`	`You think as you cannot see him you cannot aim him`
`17:12.51`	`JBDiGriz`	`larsl_56k: It's amazing how many people I have had to teach that little trick.`
`17:13.05`	`Chestal`	`keys are borked in CVS`
`17:14.03`	`JBDiGriz`	`learnerAtWork: I tried the make version of the client, and colors are terrible. We have something odd happening with the directory search and with png's.`
`17:14.14`	`Chestal`	`fortix - txe underway btw., but I fear that TXE does not stand a chance`
`17:14.16`	`learnerAtWork`	`Chestal: cap did it last night`
`17:14.24`	`Chestal`	`learnerAtWork: I knew he was to blame :-)`
`17:14.31`	`learnerAtWork`	`Chestal: see topic`
`17:15.00`	`Chestal`	`ah, uhm`
`17:15.03`	`JBDiGriz`	`RTFT`
`17:15.06`	`Chestal`	`so it's in a half finished state?`
`17:15.18`	`Chestal`	`I always ignore our topic, it's way too long`
`17:15.20`	`JBDiGriz`	`:)`
`17:15.20`	`learnerAtWork`	`JBDiGriz: I noticed the same thing.. something really funky going on`
`17:16.23`	`JBDiGriz`	`learnerAtWork: How's your c++? I'm working through the linkages, but it's slow.`
`17:16.36`	`learnerAtWork`	`what do you mean?`
`17:17.01`	`JBDiGriz`	`I've been programming c for over 25 years. c++ is not exactly my cup of tea.`
`17:17.05`	`Chestal`	`k, when I add them, it's ok more or less`
`17:17.15`	`Chestal`	`only strange thing is that public messages do not seem to work`
`17:17.25`	`learnerAtWork`	`they've been borked for days, Chestal`
`17:17.28`	`Chestal`	`i.e., I can type one, but never see the echo`
`17:17.35`	`Chestal`	`I haven't tried for days`
`17:17.41`	`Chestal`	`who is to blame? :-)`
`17:17.47`	`learnerAtWork`	`about 6 or 7 days now..`
`17:17.58`	`learnerAtWork`	`I thought it was you.. :)`
`17:18.02`	`Chestal`	`nope`
`17:18.02`	`fiberchunks`	`you should re-implement burrow for rabbit specific matches ;)`
`17:18.28`	`learnerAtWork`	`then .. must of been cap :-)`
`17:18.43`	`Chestal`	`it would be good if bugs were hunted as soon as they are introduced`
`17:18.56`	`Chestal`	`hard to find the cause now because I cannot associate it with any commit`
`17:19.04`	`fiberchunks`	`indeed`
`17:19.24`	`Chestal`	`messages obviously arrive at the server just fine, at least /lagstats etc. work`
`17:19.55`	`Chestal`	`hmm, actually onyl quickmessages work`
`17:20.01`	`Chestal`	`I assume that manually typed messages never get sent`
`17:20.29`	`Chestal`	`there was some commit which reportedly fixed the 'stuck in menu' bug, maybe that is the culprit?`
`17:22.40`	`*** join/#bzflag bryjen (~bryjen@63.147.94.145)`
`17:23.41`	`*** join/#bzflag Carnage (strayer@dyn216-8-172-23.ADSL.mnsi.net)`
`17:28.16`	`*** join/#bzflag patlabor221 (~jeffm@208.48.199.214)`
`17:28.51`	`*** join/#bzflag patlabor221 (~jeffm@208.48.199.214)`
`17:29.26`	`*** join/#bzflag patlabor221 (~jeffm@208.48.199.214)`
`17:30.19`	`*** join/#bzflag patlabor221-dead (~jeffm@208.48.199.214)`
`17:30.35`	`learnerAtWork`	`heh, it worked :)`
`17:32.11`	`*** join/#bzflag strayer (~s-t-r-a-y@p509135DD.dip.t-dialin.net)`
`17:32.50`	`strayer`	`hiho...`
`17:33.41`	`JBDiGriz`	`So what happened to the mailing list archives on sf?`
`17:34.24`	`strayer`	`dunno`
`17:52.51`	`*** join/#bzflag Carnage (strayer@dyn216-8-172-23.ADSL.mnsi.net)`
`18:28.25`	`*** join/#bzflag Noodleman (~tuckerm@bc183148.bendcable.com)`
`18:38.34`	`*** part/#bzflag strayer (~s-t-r-a-y@p509135DD.dip.t-dialin.net)`
`19:15.14`	`*** join/#bzflag bzdoug (~Joe@adsl-68-133.lou.bluegrass.net)`
`19:18.13`	`Noodleman`	`mmmm, pistachios`
`19:18.30`	`Noodleman`	`i want some pistachio ice cream`
`19:29.08`	`JBDiGriz`	`The mailing list archives have mystically reappeared on sf! Thanks to whomever is responsible.`
`19:29.23`	`bzdoug`	`your too kind`
`19:29.45`	`bzdoug`	`thank you! thank you!`
`19:30.16`	`bzdoug`	`hmmm, from 5/20/03 I have 10986 emails`
`19:31.28`	`*** join/#bzflag bryjen (~bryjen@63.147.94.145)`
`19:36.08`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/BZFlag (Client.py): Add stubs for onMsgTeleport and onMsgAlive to quiet more warnings`
`19:39.35`	`JBDiGriz`	`More sf weirdness to fix, from the bzflag-dev subscribe page. BZFlag developers list - #BZFlag on irc.openprojects.net`
`19:44.39`	`TimRiker`	`fixed.`
`19:46.32`	`*** join/#bzflag Legolas (~Legolas@adsl-68-73-89-127.dsl.emhril.ameritech.net)`
`19:48.01`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/BZFlag (7 files in 2 dirs): Separate event-related classes into an Event module`
`19:58.05`	`prot-work`	`bzdoug: umm, you are not captain_pistachio`
`19:58.47`	`prot-work`	`TimRiker: did you want me to readd the #ifdef or not?`
`20:31.50`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/BZFlag (2 files): Added periodic and oneshot timers to the Event module`
`20:35.32`	`*** join/#bzflag daBomb (dalskdjald@215-bem-10.acn.waw.pl)`
`20:40.32`	`*** join/#bzflag patlabor221 (~jeffm@208.48.199.214)`
`20:41.12`	`*** join/#bzflag patlabor221 (~jeffm@208.48.199.214)`
`20:42.01`	`*** join/#bzflag patlabor221-dead (~jeffm@208.48.199.214)`
`20:42.14`	`patlabor221`	`cap you around?`
`20:42.52`	`prot-work`	`sorta`
`20:43.04`	`patlabor221`	`can you call python from C++?`
`20:43.16`	`patlabor221`	`like classes defined in python from C`
`20:43.19`	`patlabor221`	`well C++`
`20:43.33`	`patlabor221`	`then have that python call API fucntions that are in the C++ app`
`20:43.46`	`prot-work`	`sort of...`
`20:43.54`	`prot-work`	`writing a python module in C++ is easy`
`20:44.04`	`prot-work`	`but calling python from C++ isn't quite so`
`20:44.06`	`patlabor221`	`yeah I see that from the docs`
`20:44.12`	`patlabor221`	`how hard is it?`
`20:44.20`	`patlabor221`	`nasty hard, or tricky hard?`
`20:44.31`	`prot-work`	`scanline may be better to talk to about this :)`
`20:44.39`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/BZFlag (3 files in 2 dirs): Rip out the crufty hack OverheadView used to set up timers, now it uses non-crufty timers`
`20:44.42`	`patlabor221`	`ok I will ask him when I see him`
`20:44.57`	`patlabor221`	`mr. Line, do you have a sec?`
`20:45.12`	`patlabor221`	`I am even less so`
`20:46.01`	`scanline`	`eh, actually calling python from C is pretty easy`
`20:46.28`	`scanline`	`there are a lot of different levels you can use the interpreter at, but usually it's as easy as giving it a string of python code then unpacking the return values you want`
`20:46.32`	`patlabor221`	`so if I have a C++ app, I can use python as a little scripting lang for it right?`
`20:46.47`	`scanline`	`yep, python was designed for easy C integration, in both directions`
`20:46.54`	`patlabor221`	`cool`
`20:47.06`	`scanline`	`there are a few packages that make it easier though, like swig and boost`
`20:47.08`	`learnerAtWork`	`that's exactly how I wanted to integrate it for bzbot`
`20:47.26`	`patlabor221`	`do you link a python interpreter into your app?`
`20:47.32`	`scanline`	`yes`
`20:48.37`	`patlabor221`	`so it allocates memory for what it needs from your apps mem, that is cool`
`20:49.00`	`scanline`	`there's a pretty good reference for python's C API`
`20:49.32`	`scanline`	`http://python.org/doc/current/api/api.html`
`20:49.44`	`learnerAtWork`	`how "convenient" is the bridge to pass data to/from python and C? I know the Tcl interface is pretty simple enough.`
`20:50.29`	`scanline`	`it has some functions for building and parsing python tuples using printf-like format strings`
`20:51.06`	`patlabor221`	`I'm mostly interested in calling C++ API fucntions, doing stuff with the data, then calling more fuctions with that data`
`20:51.38`	`scanline`	`you might want to look at swig, it automatically builds wrappers around C++ code in many languages, including python`
`20:52.46`	`patlabor221`	`there is a language called "CHICKEN"?`
`20:53.04`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/ (TODO): Update TODO`
`20:56.30`	`learnerAtWork`	`that commit message wasn't too informative.. since you are commiting TODO, you are obviously updating TODO ... :)`
`20:57.51`	`scanline`	`I'd like to see you write a better one ;)`
`20:58.37`	`prot-work`	`yay`
`20:58.43`	`prot-work`	`66% done with the microphones`
`20:59.29`	`scanline`	`oh no!`
`20:59.36`	`scanline`	`it's a proton!`
`21:01.31`	`patlabor221`	`bahhh OpenGL AlephOne is all jacked`
`21:03.38`	`JBDiGriz`	`~dict enlocate`
`21:03.55`	`JBDiGriz`	`~spell enlocate`
`21:03.56`		`possible spellings for enlocate: en locate en-locate allocate invocate elongate locate relocate unlocked enlarged evocate indicate enlistee enlister enlarge enact enlist locater delicate encode elate inculcate indelicate unallocated unlicked allocator inoculate`
`21:03.56`	`scanline`	`~dict JBDiGriz`
`21:04.12`	`bzdoug`	`its french`
`21:04.20`	`JBDiGriz`	`~google DiGriz`
`21:04.46`	`bryjen`	`<PROTECTED>`
`21:05.37`	`*** join/#bzflag larsl_56k (~larsl@md4690f65.utfors.se)`
`21:05.45`	`bzdoug`	`hey larsl_56k!`
`21:05.59`	`JBDiGriz`	`Here's a man who knows a bit about science fiction!`
`21:06.02`	`CIA`	`03brlcad * 12pybzflag/ (TODO): Added mac os x todo (and a better commit log message) :)`
`21:06.24`	`bryjen`	bzdoug: chmod: changing permissions of `bryjen': Operation not permitted
`21:06.45`	`bzdoug`	`I am root`
`21:06.47`	`bzdoug`	`:P`
`21:06.47`	`larsl_56k`	`Science fiction?`
`21:06.53`	`JBDiGriz`	`Keep your hands off bryjen's "sticky" bit!`
`21:07.06`	`bryjen`	`Heeeeeey!`
`21:07.11`	`JBDiGriz`	`larsl_56k: I thought you were a fan of Greg Benford.`
`21:07.24`	`larsl_56k`	`Yes, how did you know?`
`21:07.28`	`bzdoug`	`evil bit`
`21:07.34`	`larsl_56k`	`Did I say that in the channel?`
`21:07.40`	`JBDiGriz`	`Something you wrote in the channel a while back.`
`21:07.58`	`larsl_56k`	`I like all the Gregs (Benford, Egan, Bear).`
`21:08.22`	`JBDiGriz`	`How about Brin? (who isn't a Greg)`
`21:08.43`	`larsl_56k`	`Haven't read anything by him.`
`21:09.11`	`JBDiGriz`	`I believe he collaborated with Benford on a book, let me check.`
`21:09.19`	`bzdoug`	`scanline: really? :P`
`21:09.41`	`larsl_56k`	`Only if the client has the SuperKill flag. =)`
`21:09.49`	`scanline`	`hehe`
`21:09.53`	`JBDiGriz`	`The Heart of the Comet by Greg Benford and David Brin`
`21:09.56`	`bzdoug`	`I dont know, but it sounds deathly`
`21:10.31`	`larsl_56k`	`JBDiGriz: I've seen the title somewhere, haven't read it though (yet).`
`21:10.48`	`JBDiGriz`	`Have you read anything by Harry Harrison?`
`21:11.08`	`larsl_56k`	`No.`
`21:11.36`	`JBDiGriz`	`Too bad, otherwise you could enlighten these lowlifes where the nick JBDiGriz comes from. :{)`
`21:12.47`	`learnerAtWork`	`heh`
`21:13.08`	`prot-work`	`hrm`
`21:13.14`	`prot-work`	`this lab needs a bigger desk`
`21:14.36`	`bzdoug`	`bah, post office closes at 4:30`
`21:19.54`	`learnerAtWork`	`cap, do you (or anyone else for that matter) know which patch borked chat or is that tbd?`
`21:21.27`	`learnerAtWork`	`mkay just checking`
`21:21.27`	`prot-work`	`scanline pointed out that its probably client-side, not server-side`
`21:21.42`	`learnerAtWork`	`chestal seemed to believe it might have been the "menu fix"`
`21:21.45`	`Chestal`	`I'm positive that the client never tries to send the message`
`21:21.55`	`scanline`	`I have had two pybzflag chat clients talking to each other fine`
`21:21.57`	`Chestal`	`the menu fix idea is just a guess`
`21:22.02`	`learnerAtWork`	`I agree. server never receives the message`
`21:22.09`	`Chestal`	`because I am not aware of any other change which comes close to touching the code`
`21:22.19`	`Chestal`	`quicmessages work fine`
`21:22.31`	`Chestal`	`but when you manually type a message, then preess return, editing ends, but nothing is sent`
`21:22.41`	`Chestal`	`it's as if esc had been pressed`
`21:22.53`	`Chestal`	`nothing in the history either`
`21:23.42`	`david_v`	`Chestal: have a match report for you, Fortix-TXE played today, 13-0`
`21:23.52`	`Chestal`	`poor TXE`
`21:23.56`	`david_v`	`yah...`
`21:24.03`	`Chestal`	`they need lesser opponents`
`21:24.33`	`prot-work`	`menu fix?`
`21:24.35`	`david_v`	`yes they do, but they meet just about everybody`
`21:25.18`	`Chestal`	`prot: there used to be a bug with composing a message while being in a menu`
`21:25.30`	`learnerAtWork`	`rebels still need a 3-3 with fortix. :)`
`21:25.34`	`Chestal`	`prot: there was no escape from that situation. Someone commited something to fix this`
`21:25.53`	`Chestal`	`prot: I am not sure it's related to the message bug, but it might be`
`21:26.27`	`prot-work`	`ohh`
`21:26.34`	`prot-work`	`hm, could be`
`21:27.49`	`learnerAtWork`	`for what larsl?`
`21:27.59`	`learnerAtWork`	`browsing?`
`21:28.05`	`larsl_56k`	`To see the diffs. CVS is slow over a modem.`
`21:28.19`	`learnerAtWork`	`ah, diffs..`
`21:28.33`	`learnerAtWork`	`I don't have diffs working yet on my site`
`21:29.08`	`larsl_56k`	`That too. =)`
`21:29.57`	`CIA`	`03davidtrowbridge * 12bzflag/ (3 files in 3 dirs): make default bzdb items less disgusting`
`21:30.11`	`scanline`	`so this means it's subversion time, right?`
`21:30.45`	`Chestal`	`I wish I had a local CVS browser somehow`
`21:30.55`	`patlabor221`	`is there a sourceforge like site that uses SVN?`
`21:30.57`	`Chestal`	`just to see the most recent changes for a file`
`21:31.05`	`Chestal`	`using SF web CVS for this sucks`
`21:31.30`	`larsl_56k`	`Especially when it's lagging one day.`
`21:31.36`	`scanline`	`patlabor221: nope`
`21:31.47`	`scanline`	`I really wish there was`
`21:32.13`	`prot-work`	`to run svn on =)`
`21:32.55`	`prot-work`	`ooh wouldn't that piss off diablo?`
`21:33.02`	`prot-work`	`if davidtrowbridge got funding and he didn't`
`21:33.21`	`scanline`	`hehe`
`21:33.24`	`scanline`	`=)`
`21:36.02`	`larsl_56k`	`BZFlag dies when I run it in gdb with -window.`
`21:36.26`	`larsl_56k`	`SIGSEGV.`
`21:36.40`	`learnerAtWork`	`stack trace?`
`21:36.49`	`patlabor221`	`diablo?`
`21:37.02`	`learnerAtWork`	`#commits`
`21:37.06`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/BZFlag (3 files): Refactored out all the client code that will also be useful for a server`
`21:37.31`	`learnerAtWork`	`pat, guy stalking "david trowbridge" .. :)`
`21:37.42`	`patlabor221`	`stalking?`
`21:37.58`	`learnerAtWork`	`yep :) heheh`
`21:38.09`	`patlabor221`	`in what way?`
`21:38.41`	`learnerAtWork`	`supposedly this mysterious trowbridge guy keeps commiting to diablo's weenie project`
`21:38.49`	`patlabor221`	`heh`
`21:39.04`	`patlabor221`	`why does he need a project for his wang?`
`21:39.11`	`learnerAtWork`	`he's trying to find out who trowbridge is`
`21:39.19`	`learnerAtWork`	`I told him he's a bot`
`21:39.23`	`patlabor221`	`heh`
`21:39.27`	`JBDiGriz`	`Nobody else will support those old machines! :-)`
`21:39.40`	`patlabor221`	`OpenWang`
`21:39.49`	`Chestal`	`hmm, I think I used a tool to display disk space usage in form of some kind of 3D view where directories were boxes`
`21:39.56`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/BZFlag (2 files in 2 dirs): Clean up the references to ToServer and FromServer in Client`
`21:39.59`	`Chestal`	`but I cannot remember the name, and all my searches find nothing`
`21:40.34`	`JBDiGriz`	`Chestal: there was a tool like that, but the name is escaping me right now.`
`21:41.28`	`prot-work`	`jurassic park file manager?`
`21:41.33`	`prot-work`	`"ooh i know this, its unix!"`
`21:41.40`	`larsl_56k`	`3dwm?`
`21:42.31`	`scanline`	`3dwm is something pretty different`
`21:43.23`	`JBDiGriz`	`Here is one, but it isn't what I recall. http://visualversion.com/profiler/index.html`
`21:44.35`	`*** join/#bzflag Tupone (~Tupone@ppp-62-11-19-6.dialup.tiscali.it)`
`21:45.50`	`scanline`	`http://fsv.sourceforge.net/`
`21:46.29`	`scanline`	`"fsv was partly inspired by fsn, the experimental 3D File System Navigator developed some time ago by Silicon Graphics. This program figured prominently in a scene from Steven Spielburg's hit film, Jurassic Park."`
`21:48.00`	`Chestal`	`that might be it`
`21:48.27`	`JBDiGriz`	`scanline is trying to make up for his previous science fiction gaffes. ;-)`
`21:48.43`	`scanline`	`huh?`
`21:49.04`	`prot-work`	`hmm`
`21:49.23`	`prot-work`	`i had forgotten how i made a glue layer to read oggs from std::istream =)`
`21:49.35`	`bzdoug`	`~dict scanline`
`21:49.53`	`Chestal`	`hmm, why isn't it in debian`
`21:50.03`	`Chestal`	`and why is it installed on my debian box in my office?`
`21:50.29`	`JBDiGriz`	`I'm surprised it doesn't find scanline. That's an important concept in computer images!`
`21:52.37`	`patlabor221`	`if I want to get rid of a sub dir in my repository, can I just kill the dir in the raw repository?`
`21:53.12`	`CIA`	`03larsl * 12bzflag/src/bzflag (playing.cxx): Unborked chat messages`
`21:53.20`	`prot-work`	`yay`
`21:53.30`	`prot-work`	`what was wrong?`
`21:53.54`	`larsl_56k`	`Misplaced { } - it would only send the message if it was began with "UNSILENCE".`
`21:54.02`	`larsl_56k`	`s/was//`
`21:54.21`	`bzdoug`	`heh`
`21:56.23`	`scanline`	`hooray`
`21:56.32`	`JBDiGriz`	`patlabor221: Do you mean rm -rf <dir> in the source repository?`
`21:57.24`	`patlabor221`	`yeah`
`21:57.36`	`patlabor221`	`make it go byebye`
`21:57.58`	`patlabor221`	`I can't do anything in them in CVS now as they are "locked" open`
`21:58.13`	`JBDiGriz`	`You will probably have to fix the CVS entries as well.`
`21:58.20`	`JBDiGriz`	`Who has the lock?`
`21:58.22`	`*** join/#bzflag Skipp (~Skipp@12-206-137-38.client.attbi.com)`
`21:58.22`	`CIA`	`03larsl * 12bzflag/src/bzflag (playing.cxx): Fixed indentation`
`21:58.34`	`Skipp`	`i need some who is an admin at xmission`
`21:58.39`	`Skipp`	`someone`
`21:58.44`	`patlabor221`	`I don't think anyone has, it kinda borked in the middle of the CO`
`21:59.20`	`*** part/#bzflag Skipp (~Skipp@12-206-137-38.client.attbi.com)`
`21:59.26`	`prot-work`	`yay`
`21:59.38`	`prot-work`	`sgiimagefile uses a swizzle`
`22:00.01`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/BZFlag (3 files): Add sys module to Event to unbreak nonfatal exceptions`
`22:00.03`	`larsl_56k`	`xmission says "Game is full or over, try again".`
`22:00.13`	`scanline`	`I was just in xmission`
`22:00.17`	`larsl_56k`	`But there are free slots.`
`22:00.26`	`larsl_56k`	`Never mind, I'm in now...`
`22:01.38`	`JBDiGriz`	`I think you can remove the lock tag from the cvs file, but it would be better to force the unlock.`
`22:02.47`	`patlabor221`	`how?`
`22:03.43`	`JBDiGriz`	`I recall something like checkout -u, but that may be from rcs days.`
`22:04.48`	`patlabor221`	`there is a "release" thing in CVS`
`22:04.51`	`patlabor221`	`I tryed`
`22:04.51`	`patlabor221`	`<PROTECTED>`
`22:05.09`	`patlabor221`	`but it just hangs`
`22:05.15`	`learnerAtWork`	`release is merely bookkeeping`
`22:05.30`	`JBDiGriz`	`Locks are merely bookkeeping`
`22:05.44`	`patlabor221`	`cvs [release aborted]: end of file from server (consult above messages if any)`
`22:05.52`	`JBDiGriz`	`Does status give you any information?`
`22:05.58`	`CIA`	`03davidtrowbridge * 12bzflag/src/mediafile (13 files): get rid of 1.8-style indentation`
`22:06.12`	`learnerAtWork`	`sure you're still using ssh.. ?`
`22:06.21`	`patlabor221`	`I better be`
`22:06.36`	`JBDiGriz`	`There's that "davidtrowbridge" bot again! ;-)`
`22:06.52`	`learnerAtWork`	`dang bots`
`22:07.10`	`JBDiGriz`	`It's worth doublechecking the environment variable. It will hang if it's not set.`
`22:07.16`	`patlabor221`	`actualy if I get local to the server, what would it be? not ext would it?`
`22:07.42`	`larsl_56k`	`patlabor221: Just the dir name.`
`22:07.44`	`learnerAtWork`	`you don't even really "need" ext externally, just username and server`
`22:07.58`	`learnerAtWork`	`e.g. I do -d brlcad@cvs.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/bzflag`
`22:08.39`	`learnerAtWork`	`export CVS_RSH=ssh`
`22:08.58`	`learnerAtWork`	`:)`
`22:10.42`	`learnerAtWork`	`I assume you'd prefer setenv CVS_RSH ssh, then? :)`
`22:10.59`	`JBDiGriz`	`I'm multi shell-lingual.`
`22:11.05`	`learnerAtWork`	`yay`
`22:11.26`	`JBDiGriz`	`I also use vi/emacs/ed interchangably`
`22:11.44`	`TimRiker`	`nobody uses vi/emacs interchangably. ;-)`
`22:12.05`	`JBDiGriz`	`Ok, I don't program elisp, but other than that! ;-)`
`22:12.16`	`prot-work`	`TimRiker: yes, you can!`
`22:12.18`	`learnerAtWork`	`I use'm both, Tim :)`
`22:12.19`	`prot-work`	`M-x vip-mode`
`22:12.25`	`learnerAtWork`	`ha!`
`22:12.36`	`JBDiGriz`	`Yech, use emacs as emacs!`
`22:12.37`	`prot-work`	`with that simple command, emacs is usable!`
`22:12.43`	`prot-work`	`=}`
`22:12.45`	`scanline`	`hehe`
`22:12.48`	`learnerAtWork`	`that's not interchangeably, that's at the same time, cap :)`
`22:13.09`	`Chestal`	`xdu is very pretty :-)`
`22:13.26`	`JBDiGriz`	`Is that the 3d representation?`
`22:13.51`	`CIA`	`03davidtrowbridge * 12bzflag/src/bzflag (bzflag.cxx): bind some keys by default`
`22:14.00`	`prot-work`	`wooo`
`22:14.06`	`Chestal`	`JBDI: no, that was fsv, xdu is - basic`
`22:14.37`	`learnerAtWork`	`wouldn't that be JBDG ..`
`22:14.43`	`JBDiGriz`	`That "davidtrowbridge" bot seems to be into bondage now! :{)`
`22:15.13`	`learnerAtWork`	`I think someone should troll over to #commits and complain about that davidtrowbridge bot getting a bit out of hand`
`22:16.23`	`scanline`	`well, Diablo-D3 is +q'ed still :)`
`22:16.57`	`learnerAtWork`	`someone q'd him? heh`
`22:17.37`	`prot-work`	`you could unquiet him... :)`
`22:17.44`	`scanline`	`:)`
`22:17.49`	`patlabor221`	`this the idiot who didn't edit the script to take BZ out of it?`
`22:18.08`	`prot-work`	`patlabor221: no`
`22:18.16`	`JBDiGriz`	`Did you forget to take off the shells again?`
`22:18.32`	`learnerAtWork`	`nope, but I gotta big pile next to me..`
`22:19.00`	`learnerAtWork`	`and nuts are nuts, no matter how they're packaged...`
`22:20.01`	`learnerAtWork`	`hey.. mundane on-topic question`
`22:20.07`	`patlabor221`	`bahhh no matter what I do I can't remove the lock in the dirs`
`22:20.52`	`learnerAtWork`	`I don't really care, but if I add files that are written from scratch, who's name should go into the header?`
`22:21.15`	`prot-work`	`learnerAtWork: usually tim's - though you can claim copyright for yourself if you like`
`22:21.24`	`prot-work`	`its much easier to deal with if tim owns copyright on everything`
`22:21.28`	`patlabor221`	`don't say "yo momma" cus sussudio will get upset.`
`22:21.51`	`learnerAtWork`	`heh.. thatd be fun :) or funny`
`22:22.27`	`larsl_56k`	`I read something on SlashDot about laws in Germany that prevented people from giving up their copyright to someone else - does anyone know anything about that?`
`22:22.34`	`learnerAtWork`	`are all the files presently copyrighted by Tim?`
`22:22.52`	`prot-work`	`iirc in 1.9 yes`
`22:23.09`	`prot-work`	`in 1.8 there's an stl-style tree class that was brought in from elsewhere`
`22:23.33`	`learnerAtWork`	`Well, Tim.. looks like you just wrote this load of crap.. ;)`
`22:23.51`	`prot-work`	`hehe`
`22:23.54`	`patlabor221`	`that means he has to fix all bugs right?`
`22:24.22`	`learnerAtWork`	`that's how I see it..`
`22:24.43`	`learnerAtWork`	`he better get busy if he expects to meet our deadlines!`
`22:26.47`	`TimRiker`	`cvs includes md5 and zlib code that is not copyright by me.`
`22:27.03`	`prot-work`	`ahh, good point`
`22:27.13`	`prot-work`	`md5 is based on the reference implementation by rsa, i think`
`22:27.23`	`TimRiker`	`crs23 passed copyright of everything he owned on to me when I took over. I intend to do the same.`
`22:27.58`	`CIA`	`03davidtrowbridge * 12bzflag/src/bzflag (2 files): more keybindings`
`22:28.07`	`prot-work`	`if people care to make sure that time still works, that would be nice`
`22:28.41`	`TimRiker`	`our goal is to enable a console type release that could not be open for other reasons. then release all the code we can in the open version.`
`22:28.59`	`TimRiker`	`having one copyright owner makes that easier. I'm open to other options.`
`22:29.04`	`prot-work`	`hrm`
`22:29.11`	`prot-work`	`TimRiker: RCAM been talkin to you again? >:)`
`22:29.51`	`TimRiker`	`prot-work: hehe. nope. but I have been waiting for somebody to lend me an X-Box development kit. ;-)`
`22:30.04`	`prot-work`	`xbox only does directx`
`22:30.05`	`learnerAtWork`	`console, eh? anyone have a PS dev kit?`
`22:30.08`	`larsl_56k`	`In a while you might not need one. =)`
`22:30.12`	`TimRiker`	`I'd do a linux cd with bzflag on it for the xbox if hw 3d worked under linux.`
`22:30.15`	`patlabor221`	`why you can crack them now with out a modchip :)`
`22:31.11`	`patlabor221`	`PS2 dev kit?`
`22:31.16`	`patlabor221`	`what you realy like assembly?`
`22:32.00`	`learnerAtWork`	`I love assembly, but that's besides the point :)`
`22:32.12`	`patlabor221`	`that's what PS2s are ALL about`
`22:32.16`	`patlabor221`	`minicode`
`22:33.01`	`patlabor221`	`last game Comany I workd for was trying to get a PS2 version of there 3d tank game done. It did not go well`
`22:33.39`	`TimRiker`	`does the ps2 linux port have hw 3d?`
`22:33.45`	`patlabor221`	`dono`
`22:33.52`	`patlabor221`	`I think some of it's exposed, but I don't know if it's GL`
`22:33.54`	`learnerAtWork`	`http://playstation2-linux.com/`
`22:36.39`	`patlabor221`	`dosn't say it's hooked hardware into GL, just that there are APIs for all the hardware in linux`
`22:38.13`	`patlabor221`	`tho is seems someone has made a "GLesque" API for it`
`22:38.50`	`patlabor221`	`tho the state machine isn't gonna do mutch to use the 2 paralell GPU processors`
`22:38.51`	`TimRiker`	`found on the site: "Project Landscape will not use any non-PS2L specific 3D APIs such as OpenGL"`
`22:38.56`	`TimRiker`	`looks like no OpenGL`
`22:39.24`	`patlabor221`	`http://playstation2-linux.com/projects/ps2gl/`
`22:39.30`	`patlabor221`	`this looks as close as you can get`
`22:39.33`	`TimRiker`	`patlabor221: should be able to split the screen and render in parallel, no?`
`22:39.50`	`patlabor221`	`you can do what ever you want in parallel`
`22:39.57`	`patlabor221`	`you have 2 render units`
`22:39.59`	`patlabor221`	`you do what you want`
`22:40.03`	`patlabor221`	`split screen`
`22:40.12`	`patlabor221`	`or if you want 2 pass stuff`
`22:40.33`	`patlabor221`	`or if you want to render boxes in parallel or whatever`
`22:40.56`	`patlabor221`	`hell you could make boxes a minicode, and have the world draw all of them wile you figure out other stuff`
`22:41.39`	`patlabor221`	`so far the xBox has the most "PC-like" API set`
`22:41.45`	`patlabor221`	`since it is tweaked DX`
`22:41.56`	`patlabor221`	`don't know much about the cube tho`
`22:42.13`	`patlabor221`	`tho they have cracked the security loader on the cube finaly`
`22:43.26`	`TimRiker`	`DISC 2 - An alpha version of Mesa 3D supporting limited graphics acceleration`
`22:43.42`	`TimRiker`	`so that seems to imply that hw 3d is at least in alpha`
`22:43.55`	`patlabor221`	`that's nice`
`22:49.00`	`JBDiGriz`	`TimRiker: Thanks for the UTC URL. It will help a number of the people in here.`
`22:53.11`	`* topic/#bzflag by TimRiker -> http://BZFlag.org/ \|\| http://list.BZFlag.org/ \|\| http://stats.BZFlag.org/ \|\| http://bzbb.bzflag.org (forums) \|\| http://www.bzflag.org/wiki/WorkInProgress \|\| put javadoc-style / comments */ in headers! \|\| cvs snapshots: http://sfsnap.babylonia.flatirons.org/ \|\| http://brlcad.org/bzflag/source \|\| having trouble with keys in 1.9? http://bzflag.org/wiki/NewBindings \|\| dev meeting http://www.worldtimeserver.com/?h=7&mn=00&ap=pm&mo=7&d=12&y=2003&f=UT`
`22:54.10`	`prot-work`	`you can probably nuke the NewBindings url now`
`22:55.15`	`JBDiGriz`	`We should probably move a lot of the topic to bzflag.org under news, and reserve the topic for more motd stuff.`
`22:55.57`	`JBDiGriz`	`Most people should know about the work in progress doc by now.`
`22:56.21`	`learnerAtWork`	`work in progress??`
`22:56.28`	`Mayhem`	`doc?`
`22:56.30`	`prot-work`	`heh`
`22:56.33`	`patlabor221`	`work?`
`22:56.40`	`scanline`	`progress?`
`22:56.40`	`learnerAtWork`	`doctor?`
`22:57.46`	`Mayhem`	`BBJ?`
`22:58.11`	`patlabor221`	`Big Boot of Justice!`
`22:58.13`	`Mayhem`	`where'd he go?`
`22:58.17`	`learnerAtWork`	`big bucket of "juice"`
`22:58.38`	`Mayhem`	`you can cock a boot?`
`22:58.54`	`learnerAtWork`	`lol, I don't wanna know`
`23:00.06`	`learnerAtWork`	`a wiki would be nice or a way to modify it otherwise ourselves`
`23:00.34`	`Mayhem`	`I like wiki's cause otherwise I can't change stuff (being a non-devel type person)`
`23:02.36`	`scanline`	`hooray`
`23:02.38`	`scanline`	`Server is listening on yoshi:5155`
`23:02.38`	`scanline`	`Connection from 127.0.0.1:34242`
`23:02.38`	`scanline`	`*** ProtocolWarning : Unhandled message MsgNegotiateFlags`
`23:05.53`	`prot-work`	`yay`
`23:07.28`	`scanline`	`hmm.. what is it that determines how long a port stays in use after the socket bound to it dies?`
`23:08.03`	`JBDiGriz`	`setsockopt`
`23:08.23`	`scanline`	`thanks`
`23:10.37`	`prot-work`	`hah!`
`23:10.43`	`prot-work`	`there was an irix version of photoshop!`
`23:11.25`	`JBDiGriz`	`Back in the days of O2's and Octanes.`
`23:12.40`	`prot-work`	`this one isn't little =)`
`23:13.07`	`JBDiGriz`	`They were a lot prettier than the Indigos!`
`23:13.25`	`learnerAtWork`	`Mmm.. octane smp`
`23:13.55`	`JBDiGriz`	`learnerAtWork: Finished already? I'm impressed!`
`23:14.04`	`learnerAtWork`	`ha, I wish`
`23:14.12`	`Mayhem`	`drool... O2`
`23:14.24`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Hooray, BaseServer properly handles connection, disconnection, sending the hello packet, and receiving/transmitting messages.`
`23:14.31`	`learnerAtWork`	`droool .. onyx2`
`23:14.39`	`JBDiGriz`	`prot-work: You're right, it's not a little machine!`
`23:14.47`	`learnerAtWork`	`heh, big beast`
`23:14.48`	`prot-work`	`JBDiGriz: well - its one of the half-height units`
`23:14.50`	`prot-work`	`but still =)`
`23:15.01`	`learnerAtWork`	`those are called "coffee tables"`
`23:15.07`	`prot-work`	`and runs off a plain 120V 20amp socket!`
`23:15.14`	`prot-work`	`you could plug it in next to your fridge!`
`23:15.58`	`prot-work`	`hrmph`
`23:17.13`	`prot-work`	`erg, well my head is beginning to hurt`
`23:17.16`	`JBDiGriz`	`It's been a while since I worked on supercomputers, what qualifys as a "big" machine these days?`
`23:17.21`	`prot-work`	`so i think i'm gonna head home`
`23:17.28`	`prot-work`	`JBDiGriz: in this case, onyx3800`
`23:17.38`	`learnerAtWork`	`http://www.top500.org/`
`23:17.52`	`prot-work`	`see ya guys`
`23:17.57`	`learnerAtWork`	`cya cap`
`23:18.01`	`scanline`	`bye prot-work`
`23:18.44`	`bzdoug`	`JBDiGriz: quad xeon server with 32 gigs of ram :P`
`23:19.16`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/ (3 files in 2 dirs): Fix a few bugs: client IDs were not being assigned correctly, the event loop's selectDict was not being updated on removing a socket, the event loop was not updating the next timer activation when a timer was removed.`
`23:19.20`	`learnerAtWork`	`IBM has a majority of the big irons with the sp3 and sp4s`
`23:19.37`	`bzdoug`	`yea... :)`
`23:20.16`	`learnerAtWork`	`hundreds/thousands of processors (basically as many as you can afford)`
`23:20.24`	`bzdoug`	`but still, a quad xeon box still has lots of power for things like, oh, infinite loops and windows`
`23:20.49`	`bzdoug`	`learnerAtWork: ah, one of "those" "boxes"`
`23:21.47`	`learnerAtWork`	`heh heh, bzdoug, xeon!=supercomputer .. :)`
`23:21.59`	`learnerAtWork`	`even 4 of them :)`
`23:22.26`	`bzdoug`	`only a Power Macintosh G5 can insert something impressive`
`23:22.46`	`learnerAtWork`	`the Earth Simulator project, is presently king with the 5000 processor NEC`
`23:22.52`	`bzdoug`	`what commercial was that? a G3 and a pentium?`
`23:23.04`	`bzdoug`	`wow`
`23:23.34`	`JBDiGriz`	`learnerAtWork: According to the article on the web site, HP has the majority of the big irons, although IBM has the majority of the processing power.`
`23:24.12`	`learnerAtWork`	`I meant top 100`
`23:24.21`	`learnerAtWork`	`not top 500`
`23:24.47`	`learnerAtWork`	`the earth sim beast is pretty cool. 40K Gflops`
`23:24.51`	`learnerAtWork`	`http://www.es.jamstec.go.jp/esc/eng/ES/hardware.html`
`23:25.26`	`bzdoug`	`I still laugh at a "earth simulator" :)`
`23:25.39`	`bzdoug`	`a REAL earth sim would be impossible :P`
`23:25.41`	`JBDiGriz`	`It looks like the "big" machines are now all clusters. It's nice having fast networks!`
`23:26.01`	`learnerAtWork`	`yea, bad news for us, though`
`23:26.05`	`patlabor221`	`why imposible doug? your living in one`
`23:26.08`	`scanline`	`bzdoug: no it wouldn't be`
`23:26.11`	`learnerAtWork`	`we need big single image memory`
`23:26.28`	`scanline`	`it might have to be larger than the earth, but there's no reason you couldn't simulate an entire planet given enough space and time`
`23:26.29`	`bzdoug`	`scanline: ok, highly unlikely`
`23:26.33`	`JBDiGriz`	`learnerAtWork: As networks get faster, you won't notice the difference.`
`23:26.43`	`bzdoug`	`patlabor221: :P`
`23:26.45`	`patlabor221`	`take a gas giant`
`23:27.06`	`JBDiGriz`	`patlabor221: No thanks, I already had lunch. :-)`
`23:27.12`	`patlabor221`	`doug obviusly has a very narrow mind`
`23:27.46`	`learnerAtWork`	`they'll have to get quite a bit faster still.. SGI's approach seems to really rock -- it's a cluster, yet appears as a single image system through the OS`
`23:28.27`	`learnerAtWork`	`SGI is still the best bang for your buck given the new altix systems`
`23:29.55`	`learnerAtWork`	`is he carrying the narrow flag, pat?`
`23:30.44`	`JBDiGriz`	`I think that would be the blinders flag, it only narrows the vision.`
`23:34.16`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/ (5 files in 2 dirs): Make the command line code server-friendly`
`23:35.31`	`*** join/#bzflag aim2irc (~Joe@adsl-68-133.lou.bluegrass.net)`
`23:35.37`	`bzdoug`	`patlabor221: there ya go`
`23:36.41`	`patlabor221`	`what doses it show up on AIM as?`
`23:36.48`	`bzdoug`	`aimtoirc`
`23:37.07`	`bzdoug`	`it doesnt show up as alone, but its there`
`23:37.18`	`patlabor221`	`?`
`23:37.23`	`bzdoug`	`online*`
`23:39.28`	`bzdoug`	`<PROTECTED>`
`23:39.32`	`bzdoug`	`the /join #bzflag`
`23:39.38`	`bzdoug`	`then*`
`23:40.55`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/BZFlag (CommandLine.py): Support multiple classes at once in CommandLine.Parser`
`23:42.50`	`scanline`	`hi`
`23:43.15`	`captain_proton`	`DAMN its hot out there`
`23:43.25`	`scanline`	`yep`
`23:43.47`	`JBDiGriz`	`captain_proton: It's your crappy weather out there! ;-)`
`23:43.57`	`aim2irc`	`brave soul, to go face the evil UV light without protection`
`23:44.28`	`captain_proton`	`yayay`
`23:44.32`	`bzdoug`	`patlabor221: hmm, I think the aim2irc bridge can only do one at a time`
`23:44.42`	`captain_proton`	`"In the faculty meeting everyone wanted to see CSops to continue and they agreed to find a way to make that happen."`
`23:45.54`	`JBDiGriz`	`captain_proton: Does that translate to "We don't want to fix our computers, so I guess we'll pay for it"`
`23:49.01`	`captain_proton`	`yeah sort of`
`23:49.06`	`captain_proton`	`right now they're not paying enough`
`23:50.00`	`CIA`	`03micahjd * 12pybzflag/ (4 files in 2 dirs): (ab)use lambda to make tracing connections and disconnections cleaner`
`23:50.12`	`JBDiGriz`	`Or you're giving them too much for what they're paying`
`23:50.52`	`captain_proton`	`JBDiGriz: well - yeah, thats why they're going to start paying more`
`23:52.03`	`captain_proton`	`hrm`
`23:52.06`	`captain_proton`	`aspen systems is still alive?`
`23:53.25`	`scanline`	`whoops.. I just had traceproxy connect to itself...`
`23:55.48`	`* topic/#bzflag by TimRiker -> http://BZFlag.org/ \|\| http://list.BZFlag.org/ \|\| http://stats.BZFlag.org/ \|\| forums http://bzbb.bzflag.org \|\| put javadoc-style / comments */ in headers! \|\| cvs snapshots: http://sfsnap.babylonia.flatirons.org/ \|\| http://brlcad.org/bzflag/source \|\| dev meeting http://www.worldtimeserver.com/?h=7&mn=00&ap=pm&mo=7&d=12&y=2003&f=UT`
`23:56.22`	`captain_proton`	`scanline: what does that do? :)`
`23:56.59`	`captain_proton`	`hah`
`23:56.59`	`scanline`	`right now nothing, since it doesn't forward messages yet... but I'll have to try it again later :)`
`23:57.07`	`captain_proton`	`you just -couldn't- resist using lambda`
`23:57.31`	`scanline`	`hey, it was better than having to write a function just to print those messages`
`23:58.23`	`*** join/#bzflag bryjen (1000@ky-owensboro1a-242.owboky.adelphia.net)`

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